1 Tuesday, 28 March 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Stewart, are you ready to continue the examination of the
12 MR. STEWART: Yes, I am ready, Your Honour, subject only to this,
13 that Mr. Haider has very helpfully asked the technicians to come along
14 because although I'm putting the right stuff in my computer it's not
15 logging so -- but that should catch up with the witness coming in,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. STEWART: May I mention one other thing? It's just a tiny
19 point, Your Honour, but we think it is in fact unnecessary for the witness
20 to wear her headphones. She -- as far as we can see she is getting
21 nothing more from the headphones than if she didn't wear them because she
22 can hear -- she can hear in --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, unless the B/C/S interpreters would want to tell
24 her anything but I don't think that there is a fair chance that this is
25 the case.
1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we have in mind to spare her the
2 inconvenience of wearing them all day but if that happens we can alert her
3 very quickly of that, if that were acceptable to Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is.
5 MR. STEWART: Thank you. I'm getting ready here, Your Honour.
6 It's all under control.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 WITNESS: SVETLANA CENIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mrs. Cenic.
11 THE WITNESS: [In English] Good morning, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We just discussed whether it would bring us anything
15 to ask you to have your earphones on and we finally concluded that it
16 doesn't add anything. So if you would feel better without, then take them
17 off. But nevertheless, may I ask you to wait just a couple of seconds
18 between answer -- question and answer.
19 Ms. Cenic I would also like to remind you that you're still bound
20 by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony
22 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.
24 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Cenic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I am, with respect, going to have to
3 take just a few seconds in a moment to log myself on to get the LiveNote
4 as a result of the technical matter being sorted.
5 Q. But Mrs. Cenic yesterday evening were you being asked questions
6 about the municipality administration. After what you described of the
7 peaceable entry into the municipality building and then the move to hotel
8 Park, how many people all together were involved in the administrative
9 running of the Vogosca municipality?
10 A. As for the paper work, just two of us.
11 Q. And were you running the municipality in that sense for all the
12 inhabitants of whatever nationality?
13 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Permits to leave Vogosca, to any side, had
14 to be held in order to cross the checkpoints, and that applied to Serbian
15 families as well.
16 Q. You've talked again about permits but were there other aspects of
17 municipality administration that you were undertaking apart from this
18 matter of the issue of permits?
19 A. First of all, the supply of fuel was rather restricted so that
20 whatever was available was used for company vehicles, official vehicles.
21 If you can call them that. As well as for the most important uses.
22 Nobody could obtain fuel without something like a voucher or a piece of
23 paper that entitled them to a certain quantity of fuel.
24 Q. And were there any other aspects of daily municipal administration
25 that you and your colleague, Branka, undertook?
1 A. There appeared a problem of vehicles that had been in the Tas
2 company. Many of them had already been assembled and the looting of those
3 vehicles started, and the thefts, so some of my administrative duties
4 involved an attempt which I'm not saying was a very successful one to
5 channel the few vehicles that were there through a regular procedure which
6 means that pursuant to a decision of the Presidency of the municipality,
7 those vehicles were given to certain people but those people had to have a
8 piece of paper that entitled them to those vehicles, a decision that
9 preceded that procedure.
10 Q. Mrs. Cenic, I'd prefer to come back then to the question of those
11 vehicles at another point, as a discrete topic. Returning to the question
12 of permits for people to travel out of the municipality, more specifically
13 what was the procedure? First of all, a person wishing to leave and pass
14 through these checkpoints, they had to attend personally, did they, at the
16 A. Yes. Anybody from the respective family would come to the Park
17 hotel applying for this permit or approval, whatever you want to call it.
18 Q. And that would be signed by somebody, would it, then, the permit?
19 A. Yes. Sometimes it would be Ms. Cvijetic and myself.
20 Q. So it didn't require to refer it on to anybody else, Mr. Tintor or
21 anybody else, you or Branka could sign?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I think you talked about a protocol, you kept a log of -- a
24 book in which you logged these permit issues, didn't you?
25 A. Yes. Each of these papers had a number which corresponded to the
1 number in the log, and a copy was enclosed in the log as well.
2 Q. Are you able to say -- well, you've indicated that it wasn't only
3 Muslims who came for these permits but are you able to give an idea of the
4 number of non-Muslims who came for a permit?
5 A. I can't give you the exact number but the ratio would have been --
6 one-third of Serbs left Vogosca, one-third of Serb families left Vogosca.
7 Q. Was there also any paper work or administration sometimes to be
8 done when a person wanted to leave and obtain a permit in relation to
10 A. I beg your pardon, are you asking me whether they obtained fuel to
11 leave? Is that what you were referring to.
12 Q. Whether there was any additional paper work attached to a question
13 of fuel, petrol, for vehicles?
14 A. No. There was no additional paper work. Either Mr. Tintor or
15 Mr. Koprivica or somebody else from the Presidency or from the municipal
16 administration, I don't know what to call them, asked or instructed us as
17 to what to do. We just did the paper work. How shall I explain that?
18 Since there were no PCs, there was just a typewriter, we simply devised a
19 form. We multiplied it and we filled it out by land.
20 Q. Was there any procedure or requirement attached to the issue of
21 permits relating to ownership or occupation of property?
22 A. No. Let me tell you how this happened. People would come to the
23 Park hotel with their ID or any other piece of identifying document. They
24 would give us the name and the family name of the members of the family.
25 We would enter those into our forms and that was that. That is the long
1 and the short of it. If I may put it that way, this was their guarantee
2 that they would be able to go through the checkpoints safely no matter
3 what side they decided to go to.
4 Q. Was there -- was there ever any question of anybody being refused
5 a permit?
6 A. Never. Never ever was anybody denied that right.
7 Q. Are you aware of whether, after anybody did leave following
8 obtaining of such a permit, their property was taken over in Vogosca?
9 A. I don't know whether anybody moved into their flats or houses. I
10 really cannot be sure of that. I can't be positive of that. I believe
11 that I'm aware of a few cases involving young men who moved into two or
12 three apartments, and I also know that later on, Serbs arrived from other
13 municipalities and I can only assume that they moved into that property,
14 but I don't know the exact number, nor was it done in an organised manner
15 while I was there. It never occurred to us to do anything of that sort in
16 an organised way.
17 Q. When you talked about a few cases involving young men who moved
18 into two or three apartments, you're talking, are you, about young Serb
19 men who moved into apartments that had been vacated by people leaving?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. By the time you left Vogosca, which was early July, wasn't it?
22 That's right, isn't it, the date?
23 A. I don't know the exact date but I would say it was at the end of
24 June or the beginning of July. I know that because for a few weeks, I
25 resided in Trebevic and my family arrived in Trebevic, i.e. in Pale, on
1 the 2nd of August 1992. They arrived from Ilijas.
2 Q. Okay. By the time you left, how many Muslims, if you can say,
3 were left in the town of Vogosca?
4 A. Truth be told, I don't know the exact number. I never made an
5 effort to learn the exact number. For a week or two weeks, the number of
6 people who arrived in the Park hotel went up somewhat. I'm trying to
7 calculate how many of them arrived on average a day. I would say that
8 maybe a dozen of them arrived every day on their own behalf, on behalf of
9 their families. Later on this subsided. The numbers were not so great
10 and there were not so many applications. However, since all the paper
11 work has been preserved, I don't know whether the Trial Chamber has had an
12 opportunity to see those documents, but they exist and I think that the
13 most useful thing for you to do would be to have a look at them, to
14 inspect those documents.
15 Q. Well, thank you for that tip, Mrs. Cenic. You're talking about
16 documents, aren't you, that were then taken from Vogosca -- not taken in
17 any sinister way but taken from Vogosca to Pale in July 1992?
18 A. Yes, in July 1992. I also asked for those documents to be placed
19 somewhere safe, for safekeeping. I believed that those documents were
20 important and that they were more important for us who were there during
21 those couple of months than for anybody else.
22 Q. And they are somewhere safe, they went to Pale, did they?
23 A. This was a big box containing the logbook, all the copies, all the
24 paper work. The copies of the papers that had been issued during that
25 period, and that box was first taken to the Kikinda facility and
1 subsequently it was stored somewhere but I don't know where.
2 Q. The -- you said you couldn't say exactly. Are you able to give
3 the Trial Chamber some idea of the proportion of the Muslim population who
4 had left Vogosca by the time you left yourself?
5 A. What I can say with certainty is that a few hundred people left.
6 I would not like to go into any speculation in that respect.
7 Q. Leaving aside the overall circumstances, Mrs. Cenic, because I'm
8 not asking you about that, was there any question from what you saw of any
9 Muslims being compelled to leave Vogosca?
10 A. I did not witness a single attempt or act of that sort.
11 Q. The -- what you have described by way of municipal administration,
12 it does come to this, doesn't it, that there was certainly by the time you
13 were at the Hotel Park, there was a Serb administration running Vogosca as
14 best it could in the way that you describe, but with a mixed population
15 still of Serbs and Muslims and possibly some Croats, is that a correct
17 A. The population at the time was still mixed, until the end of May,
18 I would say. After that, I believe that a lot of Muslim, i.e. Bosniak,
19 population, left Vogosca. They either went in the direction of Sarajevo
20 or in the direction of Visoko.
21 Q. My question was specifically this: That there was -- in a
22 nutshell, there was a Serb administration running Vogosca with a mixed
23 population during those months?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there any protest or resistance from the Muslim or for that
1 matter Croat members of the population to that situation where the
2 administration was entirely in the hands of Serbs?
3 A. There were no protests of any sort. I don't think anybody was
4 able to assemble or get together anywhere in that period of time.
5 Q. Was there any attempt or proposal from the Muslim population that
6 they should become involved in the administration that you were
8 A. I don't know of any such attempts. Whether anyone from these
9 particular bodies of authority talked to them, I don't know.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'd like to ask a few questions on a
11 matter which it seems you have dealt with, which are not entirely clear to
12 me yet.
13 You say a few hundred people, talking about Muslims, left. Do you
14 mean families? Do you mean persons?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this specific case, I was
16 referring to the numbers of persons, sir. I have to say that these -- we
17 are talking about are people who are alive and I don't want to speculate.
18 I know for a fact that a few hundred people left in the period I was
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand a few people, anything between 200,
21 400, is that what you mean to say?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Roughly speaking.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's take the average, then, of 300.
24 What would that mean in terms of proportion? How many Muslims were there?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I don't know
1 the size of the population in Vogosca. I believe that there were several
2 thousand inhabitants in Vogosca but I believe one ought to look at the
3 statistics. As I've already said, I assumed that the ratio between the
4 Serb and Bosniak population was half-half, 50-50. There weren't many
5 Croats. I already stressed that the Bosniak population was for the most
6 part residing in Vogosca itself, whereas the Serbs owned the landed
7 estates and properties in its environs. But I don't know the exact
8 statistics and numbers.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You say approximately 50-50 Serbs, Muslims,
10 approximately. You say several or did you say a few thousand, a few
11 thousand Muslims living there --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By your leave, there were several
13 thousand inhabitants in all in Vogosca.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a rather small
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Several thousand, 3.000, 2.000.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Inhabitants.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Inhabitants, yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I don't know.
21 Perhaps 4.000 to 5.000 inhabitants in Vogosca but it is very difficult for
22 me to give you any number, given that I do not know the statistics.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's start from 4.000 inhabitants in total.
24 That means 50-50 is approximately 2.000 Serbs, 2.000 Muslims. You said
25 one-third of the Serbs moved out, which makes --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. If I may be
2 allowed, out of those who applied for a permit guaranteeing them passage
3 past checkpoints, one third of these were Serbs who left Vogosca.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- yes, there could be some
5 confusion because I thought -- one second, please.
6 Yes, there is the confusion because the question was, are you able
7 to say -- well, you've indicated that it wasn't only Muslims who came for
8 these permits but are you able to give an idea of the number of
9 non-Muslims who came for a permit? And then you said, "I can't give you
10 the exact number, but the ratio would have been one-third of Serbs left
11 Vogosca. One-third of Serb families left Vogosca. And now I do
12 understand that it was one-third of those who applied for a permit.
13 Could you tell us how many approximately applied for a permit?
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, excuse me, may I say that I -- until
15 now I have been managing but I am now finding myself hampered by what I'm
16 informed is a technical difficulty, that they have been unable to set up
17 my LiveNote and I was told it could be done in the next break. Normally
18 speaking I would just soldier on but Your Honour once we get into the
19 realm where we are referring back to previous questions on detailed
20 matters like this I am actually really hampered by not having that
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand although I literally read
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour I'm telling Your Honour I'm hampered. I
25 am. With respect, Your Honour, that's the -- that is the position.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, I read to you,
2 Mr. Stewart, all the lines between your question about logging of these
3 permits and your next question about paper work for fuel.
4 MR. STEWART: I don't dispute that, Your Honour, but I'm afraid,
5 with respect, that isn't satisfactory. I'm not blaming Your Honour for
6 this but I must be able to do what Your Honour and everybody else in court
7 can do which is check back through the transcript. And my assertion,
8 Your Honour, which is incontrovertible is that I'm hampered in the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart we will wait until you have your
12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour, but I -- technically whether
13 that now needs a few minutes to be done because we --
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll ask the technicians.
15 MR. STEWART: They came in, as Your Honour saw, and they were
16 unable to do it there and then while I carried on, and I was informed from
17 them through Mr. Josse that the next break would be required. The
18 alternative possibility, Your Honour, is I can move to another computer
19 but I feel more comfortable to know that that was set up and working
20 before I do that. I'm more than happy to do that if that's the more
21 convenient course. I will do whatever is the most convenient thing to
22 ensure that I have that facility.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Cenic, we'll wait for a second until the
24 problems with Mr. Stewart's computer have been fixed.
25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, yes, I just need to say something
1 to make sure my screen is working. Your Honour, that's working absolutely
2 fine now and I'm grateful to the technicians for sorting that out so
3 quickly. Your Honour, of course, it leaves me without what's happened so
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.
6 MR. STEWART: But Your Honour was in the course of questions of
7 this witness so perhaps I'll just sit down and then follow my newly
8 established screen.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Ms. Cenic, I'm trying to get an impression on proportions, as a
11 matter of fact. Now you said one-third of those Serbs who applied for a
12 permit left Vogosca. Do you know approximately how many Serbs applied for
13 a permit? Because if these are nine only, then we are talking about
14 three. If we are talking about 300 who applied, we are talking about 100.
15 If we are talking about 900 who applied we are talking about 300. Could
16 you give us an impression?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stated that I know
18 for a fact that a few hundred Bosniaks left. Now, if we are talking about
19 human beings in terms of numbers, which I believe is a bit painful, and if
20 we said that about 300 Bosniaks left, then I could tell you for a fact
21 that about 100 Serbs must have left in that period of time as well. 100
22 or more. But at any rate, several dozen Serb families decided to leave
23 Vogosca at that point, and to move wherever. Somebody moved to their
24 relatives' place, somebody went else where. I did not inquire into that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, to get the right impression if you say a
1 couple of hundred Muslims left on a total of, as you said, approximately
2 2.000, that would mean that a majority of Muslims remained in Vogosca S
3 that a correct impression?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is, Your Honour, what I can
5 tell you with certainty. We are talking about persons who came up and
6 applied for that piece of paper. I cannot vouch for the numbers that left
7 without that piece of paper, and I don't know whether they did leave, in
8 fact, or where they went. That is the part I cannot give you any
9 statement about. I can only tell you what I know.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So we are talking about paper work which might not
11 reflect reality in any way?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the safest way to go, in my
13 opinion, out of Vogosca, together with one's family and one's belongings
14 in one's own car, because in that particular case, they were not pulled
15 over, they were not stopped. Now, I repeat, whether anyone decided to
16 leave without or outside this particular procedure is something I cannot
17 tell you about or vouch for. There is another matter, and that is that
18 some Serb families left without any piece of paper, they simply started
19 off for Pale or in the direction of Pale without ever returning to Vogosca
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did the same happen to Muslim families.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's quite possible but I really
23 don't know anything about it and I cannot tell you anything about it
24 really. There was this road heading in the direction of Ilijas, along
25 which a mixed population resided, including Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats,
1 though to a lesser extent.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said during your testimony that a
3 rough guess of the total inhabitants of Vogosca was a couple of thousand,
4 4.000 or 5.000, you said.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was an impression of mine,
6 although I repeat I did not study the statistics of the population in
7 Vogosca and its surroundings. That was my estimation judging by the size
8 of Vogosca itself. I deduced the size of the population.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you are an economist. You know that in science
10 people are talking about ranges of errors. On this 5.000, what would be
11 the range of error looking at your sources? 1.000, 2.000, 3.000?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my personal estimation, as you
13 put it, as an economist, 1.000 would be allowed as a margin of error
14 because Vogosca is quite scattered, and I mean the environs where there is
15 land and many family houses in town -- in the town itself, there are
17 JUDGE ORIE: And as far as the ratio, Muslims-Serbs, is concerned,
18 you said approximately 50-50. What would be the margin of error you would
19 accept for yourself?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that there would be
21 anything to come under this margin of error. I believe that what I stated
22 was indeed the population of Vogosca.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, this Chamber received evidence on the 1991
24 census giving a total population of Vogosca of 20.000, which is four times
25 the number you gave.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about its urban nucleus.
2 I cannot vouch for the outlying landed households. I can only tell you
3 about the town proper. The households in the areas around Vogosca all
4 gravitate toward Vogosca. I told you at the start of my evidence, Your
5 Honour, that I lived in Vogosca those two months only in this urban
6 nucleus. That was why I kindly asked that statistics be consulted in this
7 respect. I can only tell you what Vogosca looks like.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although when I asked you about the margin of
9 error for your 5.000 inhabitants you referred to the whole of it. You
10 said a thousand would be allowed as a margin of error because "Vogosca is
11 quite scattered and I mean the environs where there was land the many
12 family houses in the town itself there are buildings." So you included
13 the whole of it. But as far as the ratio, Muslim-Serbs is concerned.
14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, is the witness to be given an
15 opportunity to answer that because that's in effect Your Honour's comment
16 is slightly confrontational, if I may put it that way, in which case the
17 witness should be give and opportunity to answer it, as if it were a
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would like to comment on it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stand by what I say.
21 And that is that I really cannot know how many households there are that
22 gravitate toward Vogosca town. I can only talk about the part of Vogosca
23 I lived in and that's the urban nucleus with its streets. As for the
24 villages which come under Vogosca municipality, which as you put it, has
25 20.000 inhabitants, I don't know anything about them. These are villages
1 that are part of Vogosca municipality. As for Vogosca town, it cannot
2 have more than a few thousand inhabitants. For instance, Sarajevo, the
3 urban Sarajevo is, of course, one thing and the villages gravitating
4 towards Sarajevo are quite a different thing, and their numbers add to the
5 total number of the population.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, as far as the ratio, Muslim-Serbs, is
7 concerned, were you also talking about town only or about the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am talking about Vogosca downtown,
10 the centre of Vogosca, what is Vogosca proper, which means I'm excluding
11 the villages which are practically outside Vogosca, outside of Vogosca
12 itself but do come under its municipality, and in this specific part I'm
13 referring to, I believe that the number of people I told you lived there.
14 As for the households living along the very perimeter of Vogosca, I cannot
15 tell you how many inhabitants lived there but I do know that the land over
16 there was predominantly owned by Serbs, whereas Muslims, as was the case
17 in other Bosnian townships, lived in the town proper.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean that there would be relatively more
19 Muslims in town than there were in the municipality as a whole?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my understanding that, again,
21 the ratio was half-half. Of course, I can be disproved by the statistics.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was whether the relative proportion
23 of Muslims in town would be higher than in the villages around Vogosca
24 town. Because that's what you explained, isn't it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's quite possible. It's quite
1 possible that this half-half ratio, as far as the very centre of town is
2 concerned, tipped in the favour of Bosniaks, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the peaceful takeover of the administration of
4 the municipality, would that cover the whole of the municipality,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How shall I put it? The
7 municipality of Vogosca covered a given territory in administrative terms.
8 Truth to tell, I don't know which villages specifically these were, and I
9 don't know this even today. After the takeover, or rather when the new
10 Presidency was set up, it was supposed to assume the role of the former
11 administrative authorities of Vogosca. However, I don't know to what
12 extent this coincided with the pre-war jurisdiction, since at that stage
13 checkpoints had already been established. Whether the boundaries followed
14 the former administrative municipal boundaries or not, well, I don't even
15 believe that they did.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This Chamber received evidence that on the
17 totality of Vogosca municipality, that there were 40 per cent more Muslims
18 than Serbs. You just told us that in town, the balance would tip in
19 favour of Muslims, which would mean that at least in town they would be
20 50, perhaps 60 per cent more.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. What do you mean that
22 there were 40 per cent more Bosniaks than Serbs? I don't understand that
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you have a thousand Serbs, that you have
25 1400 Muslims. That's 40 per cent more than the number of Serbs.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the makeup of
2 population in the municipality, in the entire municipality of Vogosca was
3 in terms of percentages.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
6 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'm going
7 to leave this topic myself for the moment. It doesn't mean I wouldn't
8 return to it but, Your Honour, it makes more sense for me to be able to
9 review the whole transcript and return to it, if it's necessary to do so.
10 Q. The -- Mrs. Cenic, who was Boro Radic?
11 A. Boro Radic was a guy from the streets, as it were, although I
12 don't believe he is one today. At the time, in Vogosca, I heard that he
13 was the leader of some protests mounted in March. I believe he even
14 headed the Patriotic League. It was one of those fierce, rough guys, to
15 put it colloquially.
16 Q. Let's take a few points about Mr. Radic. First of all, he isn't
17 one today for the simple reason he's dead, isn't he? He was killed some
18 years ago?
19 A. Yes. He was killed during the war under rather strange
20 circumstances, so they say, in a battle of some sort but nobody is sure
21 how he actually ended up.
22 Q. The -- he was a Serb, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you said he even headed the Patriotic League. The Patriotic
25 League, was that a Muslim outfit, a Serb outfit, a mixed outfit, or what?
1 A. I believe it was some sort of a Muslim, Bosniak organisation, and
2 I really don't know how come that he headed those demonstrations or --
3 some even say that it was an attempt of a putsch on the eve of the war.
4 Q. Was he influential in Vogosca at the time that you arrived?
5 A. He was influential because he had his lad around him, the lads
6 that were loyal to him. He had his own private army, and he was
7 considered a tough guy. I suppose that in every little town you have a
8 situation like that. You have somebody who is practically without
9 education and I really don't know what the origin of his income was. I
10 don't dare comment. I can't tell you what he lived on.
11 Q. Mrs. Cenic, when you say you suppose in every little town you have
12 a situation like that, you're meaning you have a situation with some sort
13 of street-tough guys? You're not suggesting in every little town you have
14 a private army, are you?
15 A. All these tough guys, wherever they can be found, have their own
16 escorts, their own followers, and I believe that everywhere they are
17 treated as a private, little army of some sort.
18 Q. Perhaps, and certainly I can take some advantage of your facility
19 with English here, Mrs. Cenic, as you hear my question but are you
20 talking -- your reference to a private army, are you talking more of a
21 street gang or are you talking about something that it would make sense to
22 describe as a -- any kind of army?
23 A. [In English] It would be rather street gang which they treat
24 normally as their private army but more like street gang.
25 Q. Did you see -- well, thank you for coming to my language for a
1 moment there, Mrs. Cenic.
2 The -- did you see this gang or members of this gang around
3 Vogosca, yourself?
4 A. [Interpretation] Of course, Boro Radic never went anywhere without
6 Q. What sort of size was his gang?
7 A. Well, there were at least a dozen of those lads around him at any
8 given time. How many of them were there in total, I really wouldn't know.
9 Q. Were they armed at any time?
10 A. As early as April, you could see them carrying arms. In the
11 second half of April, as far as I could move around Vogosca, I could see
12 them wearing weapons.
13 Q. And we are talking about what sort of weapons, just -- not talking
14 about fine technical details but just a simple description of what sort of
16 A. Those are mostly pistols of different calibre, what I could see
17 with my own naked eye, I could see pistols of different sorts.
18 Q. Were they, this gang of Boro Radic's, during the time you were in
19 Vogosca, did they -- were they ever under anybody's control?
20 A. I can't say that they were under anybody's control. Some sort of
21 a truce had been arranged between Jovan Tintor and Boro Radic. I heard
22 that the two of them had been in conflict, so for a while there was a
23 truce between the two of them. I really can't say that Boro Radic was
24 under anybody's command or control.
25 Q. Now, Tintor, precision is not important here, Mrs. Cenic, or I
1 don't think the Trial Chamber will regard precision as critical, about how
2 old was Mr. Tintor?
3 A. I believe that Mr. Tintor was born in 1951. In any case, between
4 1950 and 1952.
5 Q. And he -- he was a member of a rather well-off family with
6 property and business interests in Vogosca, wasn't he?
7 A. His father was a well-respected man. In the Serbian language he
8 was considered a very respected head of family, head of a household. He
9 was a farmer and quite an extraordinary character. They were well-known
10 as a wealthy household in Vogosca and around Vogosca on account of the
11 land that they owned especially Mr. Vlado Tintor, Mr. Jovan Tintor's
12 father. Jovan Tintor himself did not finish any higher schools and as far
13 as I know, he started his career as a decorator, a painter. Later on, he
14 was the owner of a few private companies and was considered amongst the
15 wealthier people in Vogosca according to the then-prevailing standards.
16 Q. And Radic, what sort of age was he?
17 A. It's very difficult for me to say. I believe that at the time, in
18 1992, he was in his late 30s or early 40s. I really don't know what his
19 age was. He may have been younger, he may have been older as well. He
20 was rather slim, in good physical condition, so it was very difficult to
21 pin the exact age on him.
22 Q. He wasn't in his 20s, though?
23 A. No, no, certainly not.
24 Q. Was there -- during the time that you were in Vogosca, was there
25 any type of organised unit of soldiers of any type formed?
1 A. At the time, during the first weeks of confusion that prevailed,
2 there were no organised units. I at least did not see any units of the
3 former JNA. The first unit, some sort of unit, if you could call it that
4 way, was organised and lined up, which means that men of different ages
5 had gathered, towards the end of April. And this took place in the
6 parking lot in front of the Sonja restaurant. And I can tell you that the
7 scene was rather absurd. It was rather funny, because the way they were
8 dressed was rather ridiculous. They wore whatever they saw fit, and still
9 they were lined up, dressed so colourfully. There may have been 50 of
10 them, not more.
11 Q. And the age range was, as best you can do?
12 A. Between 20 and 50, I'm sure, if I have to repeat.
13 Q. Yes. And you said they were organised and lined up. By whom were
14 they organised?
15 A. Jovan Tintor organised them. He spoke to them at the time. I
16 know that because at that moment I was present at the site.
17 Q. And Jovan Tintor was there, was he, when they lined up?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All Serbs, were they?
20 A. I suppose so, although I did not speak to them, I did not ask
21 their name, I did not approach them, I did not introduce myself and I
22 didn't hear their name so as to be able to tell you exactly whether they
23 were all Serbs. But I suppose they were.
24 Q. And were they -- they or any of them -- armed?
25 A. A few had rifles. I believe that those were the M-48 rifles that
1 were used in the JNA. I also know their calibre because I had military
2 education at school like we all did, so I was taught how to use the M-48.
3 Q. Was Tintor the head or commander of that unit or was somebody else
4 appointed to that position?
5 A. I can't say that he was the commander of that unit. I believe
6 that later on, that unit was divided into some other units, each of which
7 was headed by somebody else, but I can't give you any of their names
8 because I don't know those names, I don't know what the names were.
9 Q. Did it, whether it remained a single unit or a divided in the way
10 that you just mentioned, did it remain in existence throughout in some
11 form or another, throughout the time that you were still in Vogosca?
12 A. They were there for some time but as far as I can remember, a
13 contact was established with the army of Republika Srpska or the army of
14 the Serbian Republic, whatever it was called, so that later on, that unit
15 was reorganised. However, for sometime, for a short period of time, they
16 existed and they were a unit of some sort.
17 Q. When you say later on that unit was reorganised, how much later on
18 are you referring to?
19 A. I believe that towards the end of May and beginning of June, the
20 army of Republika Srpska sent somebody, I believe that it was
21 Major Josipovic, if my memory serves me well. I believe that he was sent
22 on behalf of the Republika Srpska army and he was in charge of the command
23 in Ilijas and Vogosca. So those units were placed under the command of
24 the army of Republika Srpska, or at least were supposed to be placed under
25 the command of the Republika Srpska army. So the things took a different
1 course and I don't know what happened next after I left Vogosca.
2 Q. Were there any -- from -- let's take the time frame from when you
3 moved to the Hotel Park, until you left Vogosca, were there any
4 difficulties about supplies of basic necessities, food and other materials
5 for everyday life in Vogosca?
6 A. The biggest problem was water. There was not enough drinking
7 water. As for the food supplies, quite a lot of population there is
8 engaged in farming. It was spring time so there was already some
9 vegetables in the gardens. Jovan Tintor was also a tradesman and he had a
10 lot of supplies of flour and sugar, I believe. He distributed that to the
11 people who did not have any supplies, and my family was like that, because
12 nobody ever thought that they should have big supplies of food. Another
13 problem was the fact that a lot of stores were closed. Some were empty.
14 They had been emptied in one way or another. So it was very difficult to
15 obtain some of the staple foods like oil and similar things.
16 Q. How bad was the drinking water problem?
17 A. It was a huge problem actually. One had to wash themselves.
18 While I was staying at the Park Hotel, we would get water in barrels
19 because the waterworks did not work for some reason and there was no water
20 in the Park Hotel and quite a number of people in Vogosca experienced the
21 same problem so they had to go and drag water from -- from wells, and
22 that's what I remember as one of the major problems. Cigarettes were
23 another problem for smokers. It was very difficult to get hold of
24 cigarettes. It became a problem very early on. Those are the biggest
25 problems that were encountered at the time.
1 Q. Were the waterworks -- how far were the waterworks from the very
2 centre of Vogosca?
3 A. I really don't know.
4 Q. Do you know whether the problem with the waterworks was that there
5 had been any damage or that people were not turning up for work or some
6 other problem?
7 A. I could only speculate. I was there very briefly and it was 15
8 years ago. I did not stay there long enough in order to know every
9 manhole, every piece of facility. I don't know where the waterworks was,
10 whether it was on the separation line. I can't speculate. I'm sorry.
11 Q. Yes, Mrs. Cenic. This Trial Chamber does discourage witnesses
12 from speculating so you're absolutely on safe ground there, if you decline
13 to speculate. And I with respect will endorse and follow the Trial
14 Chamber's lead on that.
15 What was -- let's take, as our reference point, the time when you
16 moved to the Hotel Park. What was the expectation among you and your
17 colleagues and Mr. Tintor about how long this crisis, which it clearly
18 was, would be likely to continue?
19 A. We were all convinced that this would be over within the space of
20 a few months and that we would all be able to go back to our homes.
21 Q. Was there any development or formulation that you were aware of
22 any strategy for Vogosca, as opposed to day-to-day managing in the
23 situation you were in?
24 A. Even if there had been a strategy, I never saw it. I wasn't aware
25 of it. Nobody ever told me anything about a strategy. I'll allow myself
1 to say that I am familiar with the mentality of the people there, and if
2 you ask me about a strategy today, I can only laugh. And at that time if
3 somebody told me that there was a strategy I would only be too happy to be
4 aware of that. I personally hoped every day, day in, day out, that this
5 would all come to an end because the atmosphere and the situation was very
6 difficult, a bit strange, undecided, and it was not easy running to and
7 fro and helping my family. And as far as I'm concerned, and as far as the
8 people that I was in touch with were concerned, we waited for all this to
9 end. We would all go home and live happily ever after. And this is all
10 we could think of. If somebody had told me at that time that it would
11 take years for me to go back to my own Sarajevo, I think I would have felt
12 really depressed. I would have been devastated.
13 Q. In May and June 1992, in Vogosca, what was the position so far as
14 personal security and safety of an ordinary person going about their
15 business in the town of Vogosca was concerned?
16 A. None of us felt safe, to be honest.
17 Q. And --
18 A. None of us, absolutely none of us.
19 Q. And what was it as compared, I'm going to make the assumption,
20 Mrs. Cenic, that before all these troubles arose that Vogosca, like any
21 other place, was a place where you could go shopping and go home and
22 expect to be home. So I'm going to start from that base by way of
24 The -- what -- none of you felt safe. What was the -- what were
25 the real dangers that you felt you faced as you went around Vogosca at
1 that time? What was the worst case that you felt you might face?
2 A. First of all, that somebody would open fire either from one of the
3 buildings or one of the surrounding hills, which did happen; second of
4 all, when I went to visit my parents and my daughter in Ilijas, fire was
5 opened on the car where I was on several occasions, and it was only my
6 good luck that nothing happened to me. So nobody felt safe. You couldn't
7 go for a walk, for example, and shopping. That was science fiction at the
9 Q. Now, I'm just going to -- I'm going to come back again in a
10 moment. I'm just going to jump ahead in time with the next question. At
11 some point, Jovan Tintor left Vogosca and went elsewhere; is that right?
12 A. I don't understand what you're referring to. He would leave and
13 he would come back on several occasions, and one of those occasions --
14 Q. I'll stop you there for a moment. I'm coming back to that but at
15 some point in the summer of 1992 he left Vogosca for practical purposes
16 for good and went somewhere else, didn't he?
17 A. Yes. He decided to leave, and he did leave at the beginning of
18 July. He didn't even tell us that he did not intend to come back. He
19 went to Pale. I know that for sure, and I can remember the whole thing
20 very well. He spoke to Dr. Karadzic because he no longer wanted to stay
21 in Vogosca.
22 Q. And he left, did he, as you just described it, it was then a short
23 while before you yourself left Vogosca, was it?
24 A. I left and I went up there, and I learned in Pale that he did not
25 intend to go back, and truth be told, the situation in Vogosca by then had
1 changed completely because Boro Radic had gradually taken control over
2 people and particularly over his units, so to speak. On the other hand,
3 Jovan Tintor was always in some sort of conflict with the other members of
4 the municipal administration. I don't know what else to call it. I don't
5 know whether this was still municipality or War Presidency, I can't
6 remember. He was in conflict with Mr. Koprivica and with some other
7 people over there.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm just coming on to another subtopic.
9 It might be a - 10.28 - convenient point for Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it would be a convenient moment for a break.
11 But first I would like to ask Madam Usher to escort Mrs. Cenic out of the
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break until five minutes to 11.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Stewart, the Chamber would
19 like to share with you some of its thoughts on this morning.
20 The witness testified on movement of population and how she
21 administered the permits to leave. From what the witness told us about
22 her arrival and when the Park Hotel was going to be used, it seems that
23 this happened approximately on from early May 1992, perhaps late April.
24 The Chamber heard some evidence on events which may have caused movements
25 of population in earlier stages in Vogosca and what now the core of the
1 testimony of the witness was that one-third of the Serb families left and
2 that a few hundred Muslims left. That's what we got from her testimony,
3 and I allowed you to finish this subject before you moved to another one.
4 Later on, we learned, and we might have misunderstood that
5 although it was not clear from the language, that was one-third of the
6 Serbs who applied for a permit to leave that left. At the same time, we
7 do not know how many applied. So that leaves us with not much
9 Then later on the witness testified that people also would leave
10 without permits, although the witness thought that the safest way to leave
11 with a permit and those leaving without a permit could be both Serbs and
12 Muslims. The witness also told us that whether those obtained a permit
13 left, she couldn't tell us. Finally, the witness showed to have hardly
14 any idea about the population of Vogosca, and even if it should have been
15 clear already on from the beginning that when she referred to the
16 population, inhabitants of Vogosca town itself, then still the information
17 is not in accordance with the 1991 census, because in the 1991 census
18 where Vogosca proper is one out of the 20 areas described in the 1991
19 census, we still have 10.500 inhabitants, and apart from that, where the
20 witness told us that in town the balance between Serbs and Muslims would
21 be more in favour of Muslims, it's just the other way around because the
22 1991 census learns us that, whereas in the whole of the municipality, 40
23 per cent more Muslims than Serbs that in Vogosca town, it was just the
24 other way around, that means 3.700 reported Muslims and 4.700 reported
25 Serbs and even if the category of Yugoslavs which is always a bit of an
1 uncertainty would be included then it certainly was not the case that the
2 balance was more favourable for the town as it was for the whole of the
4 This learns us at the very end that as far as movement of
5 population is concerned, first of all, we do not know how this relates to
6 perhaps earlier movements of population, April. We heard evidence about
7 that, and I might ask one or two questions to the witness in that
8 respect. But most importantly that we know what two ladies did in an
9 office but what actually happened as movement of population is concerned,
10 we do not know anything at all. That is -- we would like to share with
11 you that our feeling that this information, one-third of the Serb families
12 left and a few hundred Muslims left, that looking at the whole of it,
13 paying proper attention of what the witness knows, what the witness
14 doesn't know, that it is finally information which turns out to be
15 information about what two ladies did in an office, whereas the Chamber
16 really wants to get reliable information, also from the Defence, on what
17 happened as far as movement of population is concerned, and not only on
18 what was seen by two ladies in an office.
20 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, first of all, Your Honour, may I
21 say it is always extremely helpful, and that is extremely helpful, to have
22 such an indication of the Trial Chamber's thinking and the matters that
23 are concerning Your Honours and the areas in which you would appreciate
24 having more information and more evidence. So we certainly with respect,
25 Your Honour, we would heartily encourage Your Honours to do exactly this
1 sort of exercise as often as you feel able to because it is tremendously
2 helpful. Secondly, Your Honour, there is a lot of information in what
3 Your Honour has just said, and in the earlier transcripts and, of course,
4 in the material that has already been put in evidence in this case. As it
5 happens, it's quite clear that this witness will not finish her
6 evidence-in-chief today. Therefore, there is ample opportunity for us on
7 the Defence side to continue work that we have already, of course, put
8 under way and are continuing to try to put together as much material as we
9 can to assist the Court in exactly the areas that Your Honour has just
10 indicated. So therefore, Your Honour, my invitation certainly would be to
11 Your Honours to bear with us on that and for us to leave this topic alone
12 for the rest of the day with this witness because otherwise we are in
13 danger of proceeding on the basis of inadequate material and getting
14 answers which will then simply leave a need to explore further later in
15 the week. But, Your Honour, we bear in mind that.
16 My last comment, and I think it will be my last comment on this is
17 that Your Honour refers to two ladies in an office. But, Your Honour,
18 what the Trial Chamber is seeking has to come necessarily from a number of
19 different witnesses and from a number of different sources, and to
20 characterise two ladies in an office, what I'm primarily doing with this
21 witness is - what I submit is the correct thing to do - I'm primarily
22 asking this witness to tell the Trial Chamber what she knows and she was
23 in Vogosca for a limited period. She wasn't there in April, the beginning
24 of April. If she has no evidence to offer on these matters, then she is
25 not the source of the prospective answers to the questions that are
1 concerning Your Honour. She is a piece of the jigsaw -- no disparagement
2 to her, she is a piece of this very large jigsaw. She is one witness able
3 to tell the Trial Chamber what she knows.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the Chamber has made these
5 observations in order to find out whether it was -- whether it would
6 assist the Chamber at all to have this specific issue of movement of
7 Muslims and Serbs out of Vogosca municipality to be raised at all with
8 this witness.
9 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, may I say there? I will make one
10 further comment with respect. The Trial Chamber, of course, has the
11 ultimate responsibility of delivering judgement in this case subject to
12 any appeal, and therefore, the Trial Chamber knows what it is interested
13 in. The Defence has the task of presenting Mr. Krajisnik's case and so
14 although one hopes there is a considerable overlap, in the course of a
15 witness's evidence-in-chief, it is, Your Honour, with respect primarily
16 for the Defence to make its decisions as to what it wishes to adduce by
17 way of evidence and present to the Trial Chamber.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not challenged. But perhaps the choices
19 made by the Defence in this respect, and I just gave this example as one
20 example, of information that at least in the provisional evaluation of the
21 Chamber did not assist us a great deal. That, of course, in prioritising
22 the subjects to be raised during examination-in-chief, this could play a
23 role and should play a role.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask a question which follows on
25 from that which I know will be of particular interest to Mr. Krajisnik but
1 is also of interest to his Defence team? I apologise if it seems to be a
2 slight digression but it's this, Your Honour: In relation to population
3 movements the Trial Chamber has, and has had for a long time, a report
4 from Dr. Eva Tabeau and a colleague. She does not given oral evidence in
5 this case. I didn't insist that she should or that she was
7 Is the Trial Chamber able to give any indication as to whether it
8 would find expert evidence on the Defence side in relation to population
9 movements of assistance?
10 JUDGE ORIE: I can't give an answer right now on behalf of the
11 Chamber. That's one. But one thing is for sure: The Chamber, as far as
12 movement of population is concerned, is primarily interested on what
13 happened; that is, how many people from where to where, for what reasons,
14 moved and is less interested in small particles of relatively unimportant
15 bureaucratic administration of it. But we'll consider the matter on
16 whether the Chamber would like to have more expertise on the matter.
17 Then --
18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That's helpful.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be brought into the courtroom
21 [The witness entered court]
22 WITNESS: SVETLANA CENIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Cenic, Mr. Stewart will continue his examination.
25 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]
1 Q. Mrs. Cenic, I'm asked to ask you if you would go a little bit more
2 slowly for the interpreters. As the recipient of many such requests I'm
3 delighted to be merely the messenger on this occasion.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Mrs. Cenic, from the time you arrived in Vogosca, were you aware
6 of Mr. Tintor making any trips or visits to Pale before the time that he
7 finally left and didn't return?
8 A. Yes. On one occasion, I believe it was late April, it may have
9 happened some two to three weeks at the most after my arrival there,
10 Mr. Tintor, with some other people, went to Pale.
11 Q. And can you say who those other people were?
12 A. I'm not quite sure about this. I think it may have been
13 Mr. Koprivica and perhaps someone else with them.
14 Q. And did Mr. Koprivica have any official position in the
15 municipality or in the SDS?
16 A. I think he held some position in the municipality before the war.
17 For the duration of my stay there, I believe he was also a member of this
18 Presidency, this crisis Presidency of the municipality.
19 Q. Now, at the time of the first visit by Mr. Tintor to Pale, of
20 which you were aware, had a Serb Crisis Staff already been established in
22 A. I think they had had some meetings about the organisation of the
23 activity of the municipality in general by that time. I didn't attend
24 these meetings, and I can only give you a hearsay account of it.
25 Q. First of all, Mrs. Cenic, was -- were the meetings, meetings of
1 what you understood to be a Crisis Staff and to be called a Crisis Staff?
2 A. It appears to me that Sonja Storac or I believe that these
3 meetings sometimes took place in Mr. Koprivica's house as well as in this
4 Sonja Storac house.
5 Q. But was it a Crisis Staff or was it some other body?
6 A. In the beginning, it was called a Crisis Staff, and it seems to me
7 that later on, it became a crisis Presidency of the municipality.
8 Q. When Mr. Tintor went to Pale with at least somebody else, on the
9 first occasion that you're aware of, you didn't accompany him, did you?
10 A. The first time, I didn't, no.
11 Q. Did you know who he was going to see, if anybody, in Pale?
12 A. We had already heard by that time that something was being set up
13 at Pale, in terms of an administrative body or leadership. I can only
14 tell you that upon their return, they met up with the Presidency and quite
15 possibly with Mr. Krajisnik too.
16 Q. And when you refer to the Presidency, you're referring there to
17 the Republika Srpska Presidency; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what or who did you understand that Presidency to be?
20 A. At the time, this duty was assumed by Mrs. Plavsic and
21 Mr. Koljevic, who had been members of the Presidency of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This particular duty was performed by the two of
24 Q. And when you said a moment ago in an answer that they had quite
25 possibly met up with Mr. Krajisnik, did you in fact learn from them
1 whether they had or hadn't met Mr. Krajisnik?
2 A. I think they had met Mr. Krajisnik too. I don't know whether all
3 of them did or only some of them. Normally the Sarajevo municipalities
4 addressed Mr. Krajisnik.
5 Q. Was there any -- apart from any -- no, I'll rephrase that.
6 Were you aware of any particular connection between Mr. Tintor and
7 Mr. Krajisnik?
8 A. Families Tintor and Krajisnik had been related in terms of
9 Godfathers, one to another. I believe Vlado Tintor was, either in terms
10 of Godfather tore a best man, the interpreter notes, because the term in
11 the B/C/S is the same.
12 With Mr. Krajisnik's parents. At least that's what I understood.
13 MR. STEWART:
14 Q. And you said that you remembered Mr. Koprivica accompanying
15 Mr. Tintor or you thought he had. How were relations between Mr. Tintor
16 and Mr. Koprivica at that time?
17 A. In this period of time, the only thing I can tell you is that the
18 relations oscillated. They had ups and downs.
19 Q. Did they go more up than down from that point on?
20 A. In time, the relations between the two of them worsened, but not
21 just between the two of them. Also between Tintor on the one hand and
22 other people in the municipality on the other.
23 Q. Did you personally get on well with all these people, Koprivica,
25 A. I think -- or rather, I don't think, I am certain that I had a
1 proper -- correct, proper relationship with the others. The others
2 treated me correctly too. Except for Mr. Tintor, because the relations
3 with him were almost non-existent towards the end. I held his family,
4 especially his mother and father, in high esteem, and I believe that they
5 were the best people from the Tintor family.
6 Q. The -- did you learn anything, when Mr. Tintor and Mr. Koprivica
7 or whoever else had been to Pale on that first occasion you mentioned,
8 when they returned, did you learn anything from them about what they had
9 discussed, if anything, with anybody in Pale?
10 A. I heard that they had discussed the establishment of
11 communications. That was the biggest problem at the time --
12 Q. And what --
13 A. -- for all of those municipalities.
14 Q. And when you talk about communications there, do you mean
15 telecommunications, physical road communications, or what?
16 A. All forms of communication were a problem in general terms,
17 generally speaking.
18 Q. Did -- was there any report back to you or any discussion with you
19 on their return from Pale which indicated that there had been discussion
20 in Pale of any sort of military matters?
21 A. No.
22 Q. From that first visit you've mentioned by Mr. Tintor to the point
23 where -- well, when he left Vogosca for good, as you've described, were
24 there further visits of which you were aware by Mr. Tintor to Pale?
25 A. Later on, he frequently went on his own. I know that. The person
1 whom he saw most often on those occasions -- actually it was Mr.
2 Tintor who insisted on meeting up with Dr. Karadzic. Later on, it became
3 quite clear why that was the case.
4 Q. And what did become clear?
5 A. Mr. Tintor was looking for a position for himself, and he became
6 Dr. Karadzic's adviser.
7 Q. You say he frequently went on his own. Can you say whether on
8 further occasions during that period he went to Pale with Mr. Koprivica or
9 anybody else?
10 A. I believe that they would go separately, as time went on. As far
11 as Mr. Koprivica and others are concerned, I really don't know, and I
12 don't want to speculate.
13 Q. Did you ever accompany Mr. Tintor on any visit to Pale during this
14 period, May-June, 1992?
15 A. Yes. But.
16 Q. On one or more occasions?
17 A. I believe it was more than once. My sister lived then and still
18 lives in Pale, and I would visit her as well on those occasions. There
19 were a lot of injured people in the Koran hospital that I visited as well.
20 Q. There was some -- I believe I can lead on this, Your Honours.
21 There was difficulty and risk involved simply in travelling from Vogosca
22 to Pale at this time, was there not?
23 A. It was extremely difficult to go from one place to another. At
24 that time, we joked about our journey. We would say that we made
25 clandestine trips there. And I remember on one occasion, this was above
1 the city of Sarajevo, there was a sniper shooter on one of the elevations
2 that opened fire, that opened fire on us, on one occasion, when Mr. Tintor
3 and I travelled in separate cars, because Mr. Tintor liked to have his own
4 security in the car, and it did so happen that there was one occasion when
5 the two of us, who were in the other car, barely managed to survive,
6 although the part of the car, the side of the car where I was sitting, was
7 completely damaged. Those roads or, rather, tracks to Pale were not
8 recommendable, and we knew it, and we often spoke about that. We did not
9 recommend those roads to pregnant women and those who suffered from kidney
10 problems. That's how bad those roads were.
11 Q. When you accompanied Mr. Tintor to Pale, did you participate in
12 any sort of business or political meetings that he had?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you learn any more about the content or topics of any meetings
15 or discussions that Mr. Tintor had than you had on the first occasion that
16 you described?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you specifically know the names of anybody that Mr. Tintor did
19 go and see on any of those visits?
20 A. I know that he went to see Dr. Karadzic.
21 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, you already mentioned Dr. Karadzic. In addition
22 to Dr. Karadzic?
23 A. And on other occasions, since Jovan Tintor would never fail to
24 brag that he had met up with Dr. Karadzic, and I can't tell you whether he
25 met up with anybody else.
1 Q. During the time that you were in Vogosca, did you learn of or
2 become aware at any time of any instructions given from the SDS leadership
3 in Pale in relation to any matters in Vogosca?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you become aware at any time of any such instructions given by
6 anybody in Pale to people in Vogosca in relation to matters in Vogosca?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, you had mentioned earlier today, but we didn't pursue the
9 topic, that there were some cars at a -- was it a Tas factory in Vogosca?
10 Is that the name of the factory?
11 A. Yes, that was.
12 Q. And what was it? Was it a car factory?
13 A. This factory was where Golf vehicles were assembled, and also
14 there were a number of Audi cars, a few Audis.
15 Q. What, if you can say, what was the total number of cars that had
16 been assembled and were still present there?
17 A. You know, I have to put it this way: It is difficult to give you
18 a precise number, and I'll tell you why. First of all, when you look from
19 any elevation at the parking lot where those assembled cars were sitting,
20 you would see an endless row of vehicles. And now, why is it difficult to
21 speak about the total number is because in the factory there were still
22 parts that were ready to be assembled. There were also cars that needed
23 to be completed, and I know that later on, those parts were used to
24 assemble new vehicles. That's why I can't give you a precise number.
25 Furthermore, the factory was very difficult to secure and to
1 prevent looting from it. The way the vehicles were stolen and taken away
2 from the company perimeter are just incredible. It is incredible what
3 people's imagination came up with. This was a huge wealth, but also a big
4 curse on Vogosca.
5 Q. Did the location of the factory make the position any more
6 difficult, as far as these cars were concerned?
7 A. The location of the factory was very close to the separation line.
8 I apologise I'm using the terms that have been devised in the meantime,
9 like, for example, the separation line, because at that time we said that
10 the factory was close to the checkpoint, to the Muslim/Bosniak checkpoint.
11 In other words, the factory was very close to the territory under the
12 control of Bosniaks.
13 Furthermore, that factory was fenced off, but the only thing
14 about -- around it was a wire fence. There was no wall around it.
15 However, if it had been possible to erect a wall around it would still not
16 have been possible to protect the factory from looting. Also it was
17 almost impossible to eliminate the so-called deals that the security
18 people had with some outsiders. For a certain amount of money, those who
19 were on duty in the factory, who were standing guard, would let intruders
20 take vehicles out of the company parking lot.
21 Q. Can I -- first of all, Mrs. Cenic, can you tell the Trial Chamber,
22 had the factory -- by May 1992, had the factory ceased to be operational
23 in any serious way?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before you continue, the Chamber is
25 wondering to hear such a lot of details over the last five minutes on a
1 factory of which, at least to the Chamber it's not yet clear what the
2 importance of these details are.
3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm not going to quarrel with
4 that. Those -- I'm trying to put a stop to that, Your Honour. Those five
5 minutes have already happened and I'm trying to prevent --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, these are after five minutes in
7 which the witness told us that although she accompanied Mr. Tintor more
8 than once to Pale, that she couldn't tell us anything more than she did
9 already before, that he would have seen Mr. Karadzic over there. Also it
10 took us five minutes to come to -- we know the family now that, what
11 hospital she visited, patients, we know that the roads were bad, but five
12 minutes just to hear that she doesn't have any information on what seems
13 to be the core of your question is -- that's one's five minutes, now we
14 have got five minutes for the car factory. Please proceed.
15 MR. STEWART: I did actually want her to tell the Trial Chamber
16 something about the trial fact -- car factory, Your Honour. That isn't
17 simply an unwelcome adjunct to the questions about Mr. Tintor. But I have
18 Your Honour's point about the need, as far as humanly possible, to
19 discourage examination of extraneous matters.
20 Q. Mrs. Cenic, you referred to security -- I'm sorry, I'm just
21 looking for your precise phrase and I'll have to go back a little way.
22 The security people at the factory. Were those private security employees
23 or people connected with the factory?
24 A. The security could not be provided using the same people that had
25 worked until then.
1 Q. So who were they?
2 A. So the newly established units started standing guard, and also
3 the police were engaged, the police officers from Vogosca.
4 Q. Right. First of all then you're drawing a distinction, are you
5 between the newly established units and the police? That's what you seem
6 to be saying. You're drawing a clear distinction are you there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So when you refer to newly established units, first of all, are
9 you at all talking about Boro Radic's people?
10 A. No. I'm talking about those units that had lined up. I've told
11 you about the unit that was lined up.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I wanted to get --
13 A. Mr. Stewart, Mr. Stewart, may I ask you something.
14 Q. With the Trial Chamber's permission I'm sure it would be helpful?
15 A. You asked me to speak slower and I am speaking slowly but you are
16 interrupting me. Tell me how fast or how slow do you want me to speak?
17 Q. There are two separate points, Mrs. Cenic. It's a perfectly fair
18 observation on your part, if I may say. There are two separate points.
19 You and I probably both need to continue to speak at a pace which is
20 suitable for the interpreters. I'm in the position where I have to strike
21 a balance between, of course, meeting the Trial Chamber's wishes that we
22 avoid extraneous matters; on the other hand I'm also anxious not to
23 interrupt you in the course of your answers. Forgive me, everybody, if I
24 occasionally get that balance not perfect for everybody.
25 So what I'm asking you then -- I was just getting Boro Radic's
1 people out of the way, if you like. The security at the factory included
2 Mr. Tintor's group, unit, that you've described, that's correct, is it?
3 A. Yes. And the police.
4 Q. Were there any other unit or group involved in securing the
5 factory apart from Mr. Tintor's people that you've mentioned and the
7 A. I believe that this was in June, and there was an attempt to
8 change this and to strengthen the security by involving the military, and
9 the military would have worked in shifts in order to avoid those deals to
10 be clinched and those deals were nothing but bribing the security guards
11 to allow people to enter the factory perimeter.
12 Q. At the time that you arrived in Vogosca in April, are you able to
13 say what was the ethnic composition of the police in Vogosca?
14 A. No, I don't know.
15 Q. Are you able from your own knowledge to cast any light or give any
16 information on any changes in the ethnic composition of the police in the
17 time you were in Vogosca?
18 A. I can't speculate on that.
19 Q. Do you know whether the police who were participating in the
20 security of the Tas factory were ethnically mixed as a group or not?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Was the Crisis Staff -- were you able to say whether the Crisis
23 Staff was in day-to-day control of the police in Vogosca?
24 A. In response to that question, I can only say that there was a
25 tension between Tintor and the then-commander of the police station.
1 Q. And who was --
2 A. I believe that his name was Mladen. I can't remember his family
3 name, but he was there before the war as well.
4 Q. And what was the nature of those tensions?
5 A. A different approach to everything.
6 Q. Without too much elaboration, Mrs. Cenic, can you summarise --
7 A. One sentence, please? In one sentence. Mr. Tintor wanted and
8 liked to be in control. He wanted to be the utmost boss of things. Of
9 course, not everybody liked that. I didn't like it myself, to start with.
10 Q. Your evidence in relation to a number of different people, Mrs.
11 Cenic, appears to be describing Vogosca as a place where a very large
12 number of people were in a situation of tension with a very large number
13 of other people and there was a great deal of in-fighting. Is that an
14 inaccurate summary or is that the way it was?
15 A. I couldn't say that they fought amongst each other, although there
16 were such cases between those headed by Boro Radic and all the others.
17 Q. Were the --
18 A. And opinions that prevailed at the time differed, of course.
19 Q. You've mentioned Boro Radic and his gang. You've mentioned
20 Mr. Tintor and his unit. You've mentioned the police. You've mentioned
21 some involvement of the army from around June. Were there any other
22 significant groups, by which I mean military, paramilitary, armed,
23 organised, were there any other groups of any significance in evidence in
24 Vogosca during May and June 1992?
25 A. I can't speak of the presence of some paramilitary formations in
1 Vogosca itself. However, those formations existed in other
2 municipalities, such as Ilijas, for example, and sometimes they would
3 enter Vogosca or its environs.
4 Q. I didn't catch the last bit of interpretation. Oh, I see it is
5 "sometimes they would enter Vogosca." Is that -- is that what you said,
6 Mrs. --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- Cenic? Thank you.
9 Did that -- how often did that happen, that other groups from
10 outside entered Vogosca?
11 A. Once or maybe twice they entered Vogosca itself. Again, I kindly
12 ask the honourable Chamber to hear me when I say Vogosca itself and what
13 used to belong to the municipality of Vogosca up to 1992 and was treated
14 as municipality of Vogosca, which ceased to be in -- ceased to be the case
15 in the period that I'm talking about. They entered Vogosca itself on one
16 or two occasions, and how often and how frequently they entered the
17 villages around Vogosca, towards Ilijas, I really wouldn't know.
18 Q. What sort of size groups were they that entered -- when you say
19 Vogosca itself, you mean the town of Vogosca, don't you?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. What sort of size groups were they that entered the town of
22 Vogosca as you've described?
23 A. 20 or so men. In Vogosca itself, there were no incidents of any
24 nature. They arrived, they spent some time there, an hour or a couple of
25 hours. This happened while we were still at the Park Hotel. And then
1 they left.
2 Q. Were there any -- in May and June 1992, were there any significant
3 outbreaks of violence in the town of Vogosca? And I just want to put on
4 one side sniper fire, significant no doubt, of course, but leaving that to
5 one side, were there any significant outbreaks of violence?
6 A. Again, I'm emphasising the difference. Not in the centre of
8 Q. How far from the centre of Vogosca did significant outbreaks or
9 outbreak of violence occur in May and June 1992?
10 A. Well, several kilometres and more.
11 Q. What were the circumstances, the reasons why you yourself decided
12 to leave Vogosca? What finally caused you to leave?
13 A. There were several reasons. The most overriding one was my
14 family. The old part of Ilijas, as it's called, where my family stayed
15 was also exposed --
16 Q. Mrs. Cenic I'm here and I hope you understand I obviously don't
17 wish for one moment to minimise the importance of your family which would
18 be central, but we can accept I think that there were family reasons over
19 everything else --
20 A. Mr. Stewart, please allow me to finish.
21 What I'm about to say will also illustrate the general situation
22 there. This part of town was also shelled, which caused them to spend
23 most of their time in shelter. The shelling came from the area of Misoca,
24 which was once and is today part of Ilijas municipality. That's why I
25 explained this, because each and every one of these municipalities, even
1 when we spoke in terms of the size of the population, did not find
2 themselves in the same situation in the period up to the month of April
3 and following the month of April.
4 Q. Yes. Did you go straight from Vogosca to Pale?
5 A. For a short while, I lived in a house that was not quite
6 completed. It was someone's weekend cottage that hadn't been quite
7 completed up at Trebevic and was later joined by my family. I arrived at
8 the Kikinda facility directly, where there were still offices.
9 Q. Let me just ask you here, Mrs. Cenic, what decided you to go to
10 the Kikinda facility upon your arrival in Pale?
11 A. I had nowhere to go.
12 Q. Yes. So having nowhere to go, why to Kikinda?
13 A. And I had to do a job of work. Before the war, as I already
14 indicated, I had known both Mr. Krajisnik and Professor Koljevic,
15 including Mrs. Plavsic, Dr. Karadzic and quite a number of people up at
16 Pale, just as I knew Ms. Milena --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the family name.
18 MR. STEWART:
19 Q. That's Milena Kusmuk, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So you had wanted to be in Pale to be near to your family and to
22 take care of your family, and also you were needing and wanting some work?
23 Was that your position personally?
24 A. Several weeks before my family arrived or perhaps a month before
25 they were to arrive, I tried to find out where I was going to put them up
1 and what I was going to do in terms of job. My sister was at Pale also,
2 together with her family. It was only natural for us to reside close to
3 one another.
4 Q. And at that time, in 1992, your English was, for practical
5 purposes, at the same level as it is now, was it?
6 A. I wouldn't put it that way. It was a bit poorer because in the
7 meantime, that's to say in the recent years, I had spent some time at
8 Cambridge university attending a post graduate study and my English has
9 improved since, although at that time it was reasonably -- reasonably
11 Q. Well, it was at a pretty high level because you had acted as an
12 interpreter and so on, wasn't it?
13 A. You know, back then, trying to find a person to interpret for you
14 was quite difficult. Not many people made themselves available or was --
15 or were willing to do anything. This was especially true for educated
16 people who were seeking to leave the area regardless of their ethnicity.
17 Q. Your first work -- you then started to work, broadly speaking, for
18 Republika Srpska, on your arrival in Pale; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was your first work that you undertook?
21 A. For a short period of time, I worked in the Ministry of
22 Information, although I must note that I don't recall ever going to that
23 office, not even once. Most of the time I spent working with foreign
24 journalists who were coming to visit at the time. Sometimes I was asked
25 to escort journalists.
1 Q. I'm going to interrupt you here just to say that at this point in
2 the questioning I'm going to ask you a series of quite short questions to
3 which I would like quite short answers.
4 First of all, where was the Ministry of Information office that
5 you mentioned?
6 A. At the time, the offers was at the Hotel Bistrica, up at Mount
8 Q. And how far was that from the Kikinda building?
9 A. About 15 kilometres.
10 Q. So your work in those first stages, whatever else happened
11 subsequently, your work was mainly done, was it, at the Kikinda building?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who else -- I'm not necessarily asking for an utterly exhaustive
14 list down to the people working in the kitchen, if there were, and so on,
15 but who else was working at the Kikinda building at the time that you
16 arrived in Pale?
17 A. There was Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Petko Cancar, Nikola
18 Poplasen also had his office there. There were several people there.
19 Many of them worked there but also spent nights there.
20 Q. And you were working for the Minister of Information. Who was the
21 Minister of Information?
22 A. Velibor Ostojic.
23 Q. And did he work up at the Jahorina building?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your day-to-day work, and we will come to what that was in a
1 moment, but in your day-to-day work when you were working for the Ministry
2 of information, to whom did you directly report?
3 A. Officially I didn't report to anyone. As I said, literally
4 speaking, I'd be issued with an order or an instruction, if it had to do
5 with journalists. Other than that, I didn't write any reports, nor did
6 any reports exist.
7 Q. Were you expected to work with foreign journalists and domestic
8 journalists or was your work entirely with and for foreign journalists?
9 A. Mr. Stewart, there was no job description for what I did, nor were
10 my duties specified. It so happened that in this very short period of
11 time, I dealt with an activity which had to do with a foreign journalist,
12 for a prolonged period of time.
13 Q. Well, was that aspect of your work, was that on your own
14 initiative or at somebody else's request?
15 A. A lady, a Belgrade journalist, Mira Adanja Polak had asked
16 Dr. Karadzic for his assistance. There was a Canadian journalist, George
17 Arthur Kent, who wanted to film a documentary. Dr. Karadzic, knowing that
18 I spoke the language, and not only that, knowing that I was willing to
19 accept any job, he asked me to escort the journalist wherever he wanted to
20 go, which meant to cover with him a better part of the area.
21 Q. Were there -- let's stay with Mr. Kent, then, for the moment.
22 Were there particular matters, particular topics, in which Mr. Kent was
23 expressing interest?
24 A. To put it simply, he wanted to see it all. He had no idea
25 whatsoever of the state and of what was actually going on. He had some
1 information that he was able to obtain from other sources, and I don't
2 want to go here into any detail as to the sources, and we simply went on a
3 trip throughout the territory. In this way, we visited the municipalities
4 of Vogosca, Ilijas --
5 Q. Again I'm going to -- please, I hope you don't think it's rude but
6 I'm going to interrupt you because there are questions that are arise
7 before we move on to that.
8 You said Mr. Kent had some information. Did he indicate to you,
9 either directly or indirectly, the nature of that information?
10 A. No. Nor did I ask.
11 Q. Did you even know by way of chapter headings, if you like, what
12 that information related to?
13 A. When we had already gone into the western part of the country, he
14 sometimes hinted at what it was that he wanted to see, and this included
15 one location that was called collection centre. So we went over there
16 to --
17 Q. I still -- I'm sorry, I still wish to stop you again because there
18 are a couple of preliminary things which are of importance.
19 We are all familiar with journalists not wishing to reveal their
20 sources. You've indicated a reluctance to reveal the journalist's sources
21 here. What -- broadly speaking, the nature of the sources, you said you
22 didn't want to go into detail but you are here in court giving evidence,
23 Mrs. Cenic, what's the nature of the sources of whatever information
24 Mr. Kent had?
25 A. Mr. Stewart, if you look back at what I said, you'll see that I
1 didn't say that I was hesitant to reveal the sources but rather that I did
2 not ask him about his sources to begin with.
3 I thought that I ought to have shown him whatever he asked for.
4 And I did that. And he saw whatever he wanted to see, without any
5 reservations. What he did with the material he saw is something I am not
6 aware of, although I heard that he was presented with an award at a
8 Q. Just for clarification, then, Mrs. Cenic, when you said -- and for
9 everybody's reference, this is page 41, line 11 of the transcript, what
10 came across in translation, as "I don't want to go here into any detail as
11 to the sources," you --
12 A. I didn't want to go into detail. I didn't want to ask about it.
13 That's what I said.
14 Q. Ah. Well, leave it there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, this whole trip with this journalist,
16 could you locate that in time?
17 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. I wanted to get those preliminary
18 important matters dealt with but the trip itself which is what I now come
19 on to, perhaps, Your Honour --
20 Q. First of all, did you accompany Mr. Kent on a trip?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On the whole trip?
23 A. The whole trip.
24 Q. And when was it?
25 A. The last week or the last 10 days of September.
1 Q. And did it go to more than one location?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you able just -- first of all just to list where you went on
4 that trip?
5 A. The Sarajevo municipalities, including Vogosca, Ilijas and the
6 area there. Then Derventa, Doboj, Brod, the battle at the Obodni Kanal.
7 He saw it all. He interviewed General Lisica. Whatever one was able to
8 see in that period of time, he saw. Of course, Banja Luka and its
9 surroundings too.
10 Q. And he was -- was he filming?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was it just the two of you on the trip or were you part of a
13 bigger group?
14 A. No. There was the man who was both driver and escort, Nebojsa
15 Lazic. When we arrived in Banja Luka, we went to the army's information
16 centre there. We were escorted at Obodni Kanal, at General Lisica's, and
17 at Brod because in the time period we were there, there was fighting.
18 There was fighting for Bosanski Brod or in Bosanski Brod, which ever you
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
22 MR. STEWART:
23 Q. Did you hear that? Perhaps you didn't hear that, Mrs. Cenic.
24 You've been asked by the interpreter if you could repeat the last
1 A. In Banja Luka, therefore, we were joined by another gentleman who
2 was -- whose name was Milos Solaja.
3 Q. And who was he?
4 A. He worked at the military information centre, or as everyone
5 called it, the military press centre.
6 Q. Did Mr. Kent speak Serbian?
7 A. No.
8 If I may add, we also toured Prijedor. No, no. I interpreted.
9 Q. Well, you've answered my next question, Mrs. Cenic. So you sat in
10 as interpreter with Mr. Kent on all interviews and discussions he had with
11 Serbian speakers?
12 A. With all the people he wanted to speak to, which means he spoke to
13 whomever he wanted to, and I interpreted for him.
14 Q. And -- well, clearly, Mrs. Cenic, you must have for the period of
15 the visit have gained a very clear impression of the topics that
16 interested Mr. Kent. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what were the main issues which interested him?
19 A. I can't tell you anything specific except for this one matter,
20 which had to do with these collection centres or camps, whichever way they
21 are called, which were the reason why we went to Prijedor.
22 Q. And when you went to Prijedor, then, what did you do in relation
23 to that particular issue that interested Mr. Kent?
24 A. He wanted to see, I believe it was called Trnopolje, and we went
1 Q. And how long did you spend there at Trnopolje?
2 A. Several hours.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I could start this next line of
4 questioning now but we are very close to the time for a break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's time for a break.
6 Ms. Cenic, we will have a break for 20 minutes. We'll restart at
7 quarter to one.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I will reserve the last 15 minutes of this session
14 for procedural matters.
15 MR. STEWART: 15?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, 15, I believe is
18 much shorter than 50.
19 Q. Mrs. Cenic, when you -- when you got to Trnopolje, what did you
21 A. A fence, a gate, many people inside, in conditions that leave
22 the -- left a lot to be desired, a lot of people coming, going, people
23 wearing all sorts of uniforms, a few of them. Some had their heads
24 covered with a hat, some not. In any case, very colourful uniforms, and a
25 lot of people were entering the grounds, even on bicycles. And there were
1 little buildings there that we entered. And as I said, the hygiene
2 conditions there left a lot to be desired. They were rather poor.
3 Q. Stop there if I may, Mrs. Cenic, just ask some specific questions
4 again, some short questions, I hope, to encourage short answers. Did you
5 have an appointment so that you were expected at Trnopolje?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When you got there, did you then approach or contact, ask to
8 contact somebody in charge or did somebody from within the -- Trnopolje
9 take the initiative to make contact with you?
10 A. No. We asked to see somebody that we could talk to. A man
11 approached us, a middle-aged man. As far as I can remember after such a
12 long time, he had a uniform with the trousers and shirt not matching. I
13 explained why we had come, who the gentleman was, and what he wanted. And
14 his idea was to make a documentary, and he was allowed to go on and film
15 the premises.
16 Q. So this middle-aged man was clearly then somebody in a position of
17 some authority?
18 A. I suppose so. I suppose he was in charge of all that.
19 Q. Did he introduce himself?
20 A. I'm sure that he did but I can no longer remember it.
21 Q. Do you remember whether he was -- was he an army officer or
22 soldier or was he a civilian or what was he?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Did you then -- you stayed with Mr. Kent, did you, throughout the
25 visit --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- to this place?
3 And did Mr. Kent more or less immediately begin filming?
4 A. He filmed the entrance. He also filmed the pathway leading to the
5 entrance or the road leading to the entrance, because there were a lot of
6 bicycles parked there. He also filmed within the perimeter of the
8 Q. How large an establishment was it? Give some idea by reference to
9 something, please, like football fields or some sort of measure that would
10 give the Trial Chamber an idea of what you remember.
11 A. I'm afraid my memory doesn't serve me too well on such minute
12 details. I believe that it wasn't in the shape of a football pitch. It
13 was more in the form of a circle. I'm talking about the shape of the
14 whole area.
15 Q. Yes. I was really going by size. I gist wanted to get an idea.
16 Was it as big as 12 football fields or smaller than that?
17 A. No. Smaller than that.
18 Q. And were you -- were you at any point denied access or discouraged
19 from going into any part of the establishment?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did you go inside any buildings where people were detained?
22 A. First of all, "detained," I don't know how I would describe that
23 situation, because I saw people entering and leaving the grounds. There
24 were a lot of people.
25 Q. Let me put it more specifically then or differently anyway,
1 Mrs. Cenic. Did you see people there in that establishment who were very
2 obviously being kept there, unable to leave, as -- well, we understand --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I ask to you find out what happens
4 at this very moment? Are you challenging the adjudicated facts or do you
5 want to establish that matters may have been different in September
6 compared to other periods? It's not entirely clear to me what exercise
7 we are in at this moment.
8 MR. STEWART: I would like this witness, Your Honour, to tell the
9 Trial Chamber exactly what she observed on the day that she was there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you know that adjudicated facts are
11 established on the basis of lots of material and I think it's the case law
12 of this Tribunal that can be challenged, but to add one or two testimonies
13 to the perhaps tens or more on which the adjudicated facts were based is
14 usually not encouraged, because, again, if the Defence wants to challenge
15 and say, in the adjudicated facts, number so and so is not correct and
16 therefore I lead this evidence, then please tell us what adjudicated fact
17 you are challenging through the presentation of this evidence. For
18 example, I could imagine that 365 is there. If that's the case, then at
19 least we know what we are doing at this moment.
20 MR. STEWART: Sorry, 365 what, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Adjudicated fact on our list.
22 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour is referring to number 365.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes of the adjudicated fact.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour that is the advantage of me because I
25 don't have the adjudicated facts in front of me or on my desk. That's why
1 I simply asked.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you start asking about Trnopolje, we know that as
3 such a list of adjudicated facts on Trnopolje it would be a proper
4 preparation -- exercise to know exactly what is in the adjudicated facts
5 and which --
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there would be lots and lots of things
7 prior to the proper preparation for witnesses that the Defence could not
8 possibly in a month of somebody's do, but whether or not this is part of
9 it. Your Honour is simply referring to that. If I do not have the list
10 of adjudicated facts in front of me then a simple question for me whether
11 Your Honour was referring to number 365 or a total of 365, I'm afraid I
12 was only asking for that basic help. But, Your Honour, I have to answer
13 Your Honour's question in the absence of the witness since this witness
14 can obviously understand and hear --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I put it in such a way that it's --
16 MR. STEWART: I can't answer it and accept any answers from the
17 witness, Your Honour. Your Honour's comment can be made in the presence
18 of the witness but if my -- Your Honour has asked me a question which I
19 cannot answer in the presence of the witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, I ask myself, Mr. Stewart, I wouldn't mind
21 if you would not turn your back to me at this point.
22 MR. STEWART: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. I was actually -- I've
23 got a co-counsel that I -- that I -- I didn't mean at all to be rude but I
24 have sometimes to have some communication with him without my back to him.
25 I do apologise.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I ask myself what's the use of it at this
2 moment. If you say I'd like to look through the Trnopolje adjudicated
3 facts again, then --
4 MR. STEWART: I can't answer this in the presence of the witness,
5 Your Honour. If Your Honour is asking yourself questions then Your Honour
6 can answer yourself in the presence of the witness, but I cannot answer
7 Your Honour's question to me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: A few simple questions. Are you at this very moment
9 aware of the adjudicated facts concerning Trnopolje in some detail, yes or
10 no? Because if the answer is no --
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour I'm aware of the adjudicated facts, I'm
12 aware that they go into enormous detail. I'm aware of the nature of them,
13 yes. I am aware of all that, Your Honour. I do not have them here in
14 front of me, but yes, of course, yes, Your Honour, I do know just the sort
15 of thing they deal with. And I do know that they are lengthy and
16 detailed. Well, apart from anything else we know at least that they go to
17 365, don't we?
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you told us that you would not finish by
20 today. You're invited to first look at the adjudicated facts on Trnopolje
21 before you enter into further details on Trnopolje and the -- just for
22 your guidance Trnopolje goes from 353 up to 371.
23 MR. STEWART: Well, we can find all this, Your Honour. I'm
24 grateful for that. Of course, we can find all this, thank you, and I
25 accept Your Honour's offer.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then perhaps at this moment. I'm not saying that the
2 trip as such is excluded from further questions but details on Trnopolje
3 preferably after you have studied --
4 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, still doesn't know and it's not
5 necessary for -- Your Honour still doesn't know the answer to the question
6 Your Honour put to me. So -- which would no doubt have clarified things.
7 But Your Honour therefore I won't, if I understand this fits what the
8 Trial Chamber's preference would be today, I would prefer to leave this
9 topic completely for today.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine as well. Yes.
11 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. STEWART:
14 Q. Mrs. Cenic, I'm going to go back in time then and take us back to
15 your -- the beginning of your time in Pale. So we are back in Kikinda.
16 The -- I'll lead a bit on this, Your Honour, if I may, and, of
17 course, invite the usual interruptions if I'm going too far.
18 Dr. Karadzic had his own office in Kikinda, did he?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did Mr. Krajisnik? This is at the time you arrived. Did
21 Mr. Krajisnik also have his own office?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were Dr. Karadzic's and Mr. Krajisnik's offices opposite, directly
24 opposite each other, on two sides of a corridor?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is this right, they were not purpose-built offices but they were
2 nevertheless large rooms functioning as offices; is that right?
3 A. Yes. This used to be a holiday place for the Kikinda and that's
4 why it's called Kikinda.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. And those were just rooms.
7 Q. Who worked, if anybody, in Dr. Karadzic's office as well as him?
8 A. His personal assistant, his secretary, worked there.
9 Q. Who was?
10 A. Milijana Rasevic was her name.
11 Q. Whoever else went in and out of Dr. Karadzic's office, the two
12 people who were actually based there working were the two of them?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That lady and Dr. Karadzic.
15 And Mr. Krajisnik's office, was it a single, open room or was it
16 divided in any way?
17 A. As well as the other office, as you entered, there was a little
18 hallway, a bathroom was on the left. There was a room where the secretary
19 was. And to the right there was a room where Mr. Krajisnik's office was.
20 Q. And the secretary was who?
21 A. Mrs. Milena Kusmuk.
22 Q. And when you began your work at Kikinda, did you -- were you based
23 in one or other of those offices, Dr. Karadzic's and Mr. Krajisnik's, or
24 somewhere else in the building?
25 A. Since I was more familiar with Mrs. Milena Kusmuk, I had my desk
1 there, and in a certain way, I placed myself at the disposal of and I
2 helped her until further notice, until I was told what to do and where to
3 go next.
4 Q. What was there -- was there a telephone, both in Mr. Karadzic's
5 office and in Mr. Krajisnik's office?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was there internal and external communication from the telephone
8 in Mr. Krajisnik's office?
9 A. There was no internal communication. It didn't exist. Those were
10 regular telephone devices and regular telephone lines. One telephone
11 device was on Mrs. Kusmuk's desk and one was on the desk of Ms. Rasevic.
12 Q. Was there a fax machine in Mr. Krajisnik's office?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it worked all right for incoming and outgoing faxes, did it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was there a similar machine in Dr. Karadzic's office?
17 A. I don't remember. I believe so.
18 Q. And was your -- from when you first started working there, was
19 your day-to-day work exclusively or largely or just in part connected with
20 foreign journalists?
21 A. At the time, we still didn't discuss work with either foreign or
22 local journalists. They would just spontaneously sometimes approach me.
23 Otherwise, I did all sorts of things, typing documents, and I was just
24 there reflecting on my future and what I would be asked to do next.
25 Q. So you were doing general administrative and PA and secretarial
1 work at that time; is that right?
2 A. You know, it's very difficult to use the right words to describe
3 the situation as it was at the time. Given the fact that what we had at
4 our disposal was very primitive in comparison with the
5 then-already-existing technologies. There was a typewriter. There was a
6 fax machine, but the most primitive one. And there was a telephone.
7 Q. Mrs. Cenic I'm going to ask a question which gives you a
8 relatively free rein. You would have got a sense of the sort of balance
9 the Trial Chamber is interested in between facts and extraneous, extrinsic
10 detail. But you were there. Nobody else from this -- from this courtroom
11 was there at this time. Please describe, as best you can but as
12 succinctly as you can, a working day for you, how it operated, where you
13 were, what you did, who you saw, what the nature of your work was.
14 Obviously this may take a few minutes but try to give the Trial Chamber a
15 picture of your typical working day at that time.
16 A. I would come by in the morning, around half past eight. If
17 Mrs. Kusmuk had other things to do, I would answer her telephone. I would
18 receive fax messages. A lot of people came to the office because there
19 was simply no other way to get in touch but to go there -- to go to places
20 in person. People who came were either ordinary people who had a problem
21 or they were assembly members who arrived from various municipalities, and
22 the working day lasted for as long as there was work. I'm talking about
23 very dire times when we had daily information on casualties, on people who
24 got killed or were injured, and there were a lot of other things that were
25 very hard to deal with. And at any moment somebody had to be there,
1 somebody had to be on duty. We would go to bed very late. I would never
2 leave before nine, ten, or even later. And then I would go to that little
3 house where I slept, which was some ten kilometres away from the place I
5 Q. Were you at that time in any sense working for Mr. Krajisnik apart
6 from being in his office physically, but were you working for Mr.
8 A. Not directly, no.
9 Q. Indirectly in some way?
10 A. Indirectly, to the extent I assisted Ms. Kusmuk, who was his
11 secretary. Also, as I said, people were scarce at the time, and there was
12 no strict division of duties or job description. One had to fall back on
13 one's resourcefulness in dealing with matters and organising
14 them. If I was asked to do something, I would leave my desk and go about
15 it, without asking whose duty that was, in fact, because I seemed -- I
16 felt like I had landed there out of the blue, and that's the sort of
17 atmosphere that reigned.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.
19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness, you said that a
20 lot of assemblymen came to see you and you said that these assemblymen
21 came from various municipalities.
22 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... French,
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I was saying that in your
25 testimony, you stated that where you worked, a lot of assemblymen came to
1 visit you and these assemblymen came from various municipalities, that is
2 what you said, isn't it?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Some municipalities didn't
4 have any other way of communicating other than going there directly, and I
5 remember that this was typical of the Herzegovina municipalities.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Were these people invited to
7 come by Mr. Krajisnik or did they come of their own accord?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no invitations sent.
9 People came out of their own accord, on their own initiative. I never
10 heard of any invitation being sent out.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Somebody was always prepared to
12 see them without them having to provide an explanation as to why they had
13 come to see you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most often, if Mr. Krajisnik was
15 occupied elsewhere, the assemblymen waited in a room which used to be used
16 as a cafeteria on the ground floor and then, when he had time to see them,
17 he would see them.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did you ask people to specify why
19 they had come to see you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my recollection,
21 they didn't even need to say why they were there. They simply showed up
22 and said that they wanted to talk to him, probably talk to us, probably
23 about their problems. They didn't ask much, nor did Ms. Kusmuk ask much.
24 I was never told to ask them what their purpose in coming was. The
25 message we had to relay was that they had to wait until Mr. Krajisnik had
1 time to receive them. Mr. Krajisnik was there. He would spent the
2 entire day there. But, of course, he couldn't throw out of the office
3 whoever was in there to receive them.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. The next question I have
5 for you runs as follows: How often did these people come? Every day?
6 Were there assembly members who came to see Mr. Krajisnik every day? Just
7 about every day? Or --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These weren't just assemblymen.
9 There were ordinary people there as well, to put it that way. I don't
10 know what their position was or if they had any position. They weren't
11 familiar to me, and they didn't seem to be people involved in the public
12 life in general. There were people arriving who were trying to get in
13 touch with their family members or to find out their whereabouts, and they
14 would mostly approach Mr. Krajisnik. There were many people who lost
15 touch with their family members in Sarajevo. In fact, most of the people
16 coming to visit were precisely the ones who had this very grave problem.
17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you tell us where these
18 assembly members came from? Could you tell us which municipalities or
19 which areas they came from? I think a while ago you were on the point of
20 giving us details about this.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I mentioned the Herzegovina
22 municipalities, which were the ones the communication was most difficult
23 with. They went to great lengths to reach Pale. I believe they even had
24 to take the round about way through Serbia. Then there were the
25 municipalities of the so-called Stara Herzegovina. They also had this one
1 option at their disposal. Then there were the municipalities around Pale.
2 Their representatives came sometimes as well. I can't recall at this time
3 whether there were frequent visits from the people from the Krajina
4 municipalities. In fact, I can't recall a single delegation from there.
5 And as I said, all these other people came. I'm telling as far as I can
6 remember. There were many people that went through the building and it's
7 very difficult to remember all their names.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Were these municipality
9 representatives who come from so far afield in such difficult conditions,
10 could you tell us why they were so keen on coming to meet Mr. Krajisnik?
11 Do you have any idea?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there are several
13 reasons for that. People wanted to know what was to happen next and what
14 they were to do. Most of them and I'm talking about assemblymen and
15 people employed in the municipalities, were eager to hear some words of
16 comfort. This may sound a bit strange to you, but sometimes the effect of
17 the office at Pale was sort of a therapy. They wanted to hear that things
18 and matters were getting resolved and that things were looking up. Very
19 often they would go back home without having solved their problems because
20 it was the sort of time when it wasn't easy to solve problems. Each and
21 every one of them wanted to ask how long the situation was going to last
22 the way it was. And as they were waiting to be received they would chat
23 amongst them and the most prominent question was how long is this going to
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My last question: Could one
1 phone from these municipalities, could one phone Mr. Krajisnik from these
2 municipalities, or was this totally impossible?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With some municipalities it was
4 impossible to establish any communication channels including those of
5 telephone lines. Later on the situation somewhat improved but at the time
6 I was there we could not communicate with all the municipalities.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you tell us at what point
8 in time the lines were up and working again?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Telephone lines were operating until
10 sanctions were imposed by Yugoslavia. When we relocated to that other
11 facility which was better fitted for an office, it was the so-called Mali
12 Dom next to hotel Panorama, we had telephone lines that were somewhat
13 different there. Nevertheless the lines operated and quite a lot of the
14 lines was fixed.
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You were at Kikinda, you said,
16 that most municipalities found it difficult to contact Mr. Krajisnik over
17 the phone.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was difficult. In some
19 cases, there was no telephone communication possible. The only solution
20 left to them was to start off on a trip and go there personally, whoever
21 was able to, of course.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I wanted to spend --
23 MR. STEWART: Yes, we noticed that, Your Honour. Of course.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Cenic, we will finish for the day. Tomorrow we
25 are not sitting. We tried to reschedule but there is a meeting of all
1 judges and therefore we can't sit tomorrow. We would like to see you back
2 next Thursday, the 30th of March at quarter past 2 in the afternoon and
3 then again in Courtroom II. I again instruct you not to speak with anyone
4 about the testimony you have given and you're still about to give.
5 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please follow Madam Usher?
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A few matters. First of all, there is -- that
10 might not have been entirely clear to the parties, I would explicitly
11 admit into evidence the following exhibits: D142, D143, and D148, the
12 details to be found on the list the Registrar keeps.
13 Then P1074, P1075, P1076, P1078, P1080, P1085, P1087, P1093,
14 P1094, P1095, P1096, and P1097.
15 Then, as far as P1138 is concerned, these are the, if I could call
16 them, the Hotic documents, they are numbered as follows, and they are by
17 now included in the list of exhibits kept by the Registrar: P1138 is the
18 index of documents pertaining to the Hotic case, K T-460/04. And then all
19 the underlying documents are numbered P1138.A, P1138.B, et cetera, up to
20 and including P1138.A.A, which is then the 27th document.
21 Translations, as always, with a ".1" added to it.
22 The next issue in order not to lose any time next Thursday is the
23 following, and we should turn into private session for that.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 22154-22155 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Josse, there were a few matters you could
20 still deal with as the first one being translation of D106. Is that --
21 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Mr. Harmon has got copies and I'm grateful to
22 the Prosecution. In short, Your Honour, we came to an agreement. It was
23 sent to the CLSS. Document was translated and Mr. Harmon's translators
24 have added to that translation and I'm very grateful to the Prosecution
25 for assisting in that regard. D106 is now agreed between the parties.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's mainly about the translation.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I receive French on the English channel but -- now I
3 hear myself again so that's English at this moment.
4 The -- there was an issue about Poplasen testimony about a double
5 punch in the translation.
6 MR. JOSSE: The position is I've received some translations from
7 my learned friend. That is an issue that I would ask be put over to next
8 week, please. Mr. Krajisnik has done some work on the subject and I'm
9 going to discuss it with him in conference tomorrow.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll give you time until next week to deal
11 with that matter.
12 Yes. Going back for one second to D106, it was only the
13 translation that caused the problems, isn't it?
14 MR. JOSSE: That, as far as I'm concerned, and I see Mr. Harmon
15 nodding his head.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Agreement on the translation means that the -- D106
17 is admitted with this new translation.
18 MR. JOSSE: May I Your Honour, it's the Japra Valley issue.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Japra Valley.
20 MR. JOSSE: I am content for Mr. Harmon to inform the Court orally
21 of his investigator's investigation, with this rider, that we continue to
22 make such efforts as we can to supplement any of this information; if we
23 are able to provide anything to the Chamber we will revert in due course.
24 But I'm content for Mr. Harmon to deal with the matter by way of a short,
25 oral statement in effect.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon?
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, my precise notes are in my office, if I
3 can give a more fulsome description to the court when we next meet but
4 essentially there is the situation. The court had asked a witness if
5 there are any Prosecutions for crimes that were committed in the Japra
6 Valley on the 23rd and the 24th of May 1992. As a result of that, my
7 investigators did conduct an investigation by going to the -- I think it
8 was the Bosanski Novi basic court and made an inquiry. They were given
9 certain files, copies of which I have provided in their entirety to the
10 Defence for their review. There were no prosecutions for crimes that were
11 committed in the Japra Valley on the 23rd and the 24th of May 1992.
12 That's based on a review of the files that we were provided by the basic
13 district court that I've looked at and the Defence have looked at.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Josse?
15 MR. JOSSE: As I say, Your Honour, if anything could contradict
16 that in due course, then we will notify my learned friend and in due
17 course notify the Chamber but that's the state of the evidence at the
18 moment, I accept.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
20 Then looking at the clock it's a quarter to two. We have to
21 finish for the day. One second, please.
22 And before we do so, Mr. Stewart, I listened carefully to what you
23 said when I tried, as friendly as possible, to say that I wouldn't mind if
24 you would not turn your back to me. You explained that you've got
25 co-counsel and that you have to be in communication with him without your
1 back to him. Just as guidance, next time, please ask for a second to
2 consult with co-counsel and I'll be only too glad to give you that moment.
3 We will adjourn until next Thursday.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you for that guidance, Your Honour. Does that
5 apply to other counsel as well, Your Honour?
6 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn to quarter past two, next Thursday,
7 Courtroom II.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of March
10 2006, at 2.15 p.m.