Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22160

1 Thursday, 30 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Stewart, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief of

11 the witness?

12 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I remind you, Mrs. Cenic, that you're still

14 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

15 testimony.

16 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honours.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

20 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

22 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Cenic. Mrs. Cenic, did the -- after the work

23 that you already described to the Trial Chamber upon your arrival at Pale,

24 did the nature of your work subsequently change?

25 A. Would you please clarify what exactly you have in mind.

Page 22161

1 Q. Well, you described the sort of work you were doing at the Kikinda

2 building in the, at least the first period after your arrival in Pale in

3 July 1992 and --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seemed to be a technical problem but I

5 think Judge Canivell will read the question and hear the answer from the

6 witness.

7 MR. STEWART: I probably ought to start again just in case the

8 witness needs it from the beginning, Your Honour, because she was asking

9 for clarification.

10 Q. Mrs. Cenic, you described to the Trial Chamber the other day the

11 sort of work you were doing at the Kikinda building, in at least the first

12 period after your arrival in Pale in July 1992. And what I'm asking is

13 whether the nature of your work changed at any subsequent point.

14 A. As I said, afterwards, I worked for the Ministry of Information,

15 if we are talking about 1992, and it was just for a brief period.

16 Q. Yes, I am talking about the short term of 1992, Mrs. Cenic, for

17 clarification.

18 A. Next, when everyone moved over to this other location, Mali Dom, I

19 was with the National Assembly and my duty was to prepare for

20 Mr. Krajisnik whatever was available from the press, whatever we were able

21 to receive, and to make brief overviews.

22 Q. Now, first of all, can you date, as best you can, the move over to

23 the other location at Mali Dom?

24 A. I believe it was in October, but I can't be certain. What I'm

25 saying is to the best of my recollection. I believe it was October.

Page 22162

1 Q. And the work that you did in relation to press materials and the

2 making of brief overviews, did that include work on both Serbian language

3 publications and English publications?

4 A. At the time, we could not get hold of any foreign press. Perhaps

5 only to the extent that foreign journalists and visitors brought along.

6 As for any regular receipt of foreign press, that was quite impossible.

7 We didn't have that. The press materials we did receive, whether through

8 bus drivers who took them along or otherwise, consisted of the press from

9 Serbia, some of our media, and sometimes we received the press materials

10 from Sarajevo, whenever anyone from UNPROFOR arrived or the liaison

11 officer for UNPROFOR, whenever he was able to bring along something.

12 Q. Now, from when you arrived in Pale in July 1992, as you've

13 described, through to first of all when you moved to Mali Dom -- Mali Dom,

14 so talking about before you moved to Mali Dom, did you personally attend

15 any high-level political meetings of the Bosnian Serb leadership?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Were you aware of such meetings taking place?

18 A. Such meetings of any sort or of any level were, of course, held.

19 Mr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Djeric, and

20 commissioners for certain regions also came by.

21 Q. Was there a particular location where such meetings were generally

22 held?

23 A. I can't really mention any special occasions here, just as I can't

24 tell you whether these meetings were of a formal or consultative nature,

25 because I didn't attend the meetings.

Page 22163

1 Q. Were you aware at any time of there being meetings of a body known

2 as the Expanded Presidency?

3 A. There was the Presidency, and there were broader meetings that

4 Dr. Karadzic most often called brainstorming. I'm mentioning this term

5 that he used because we tended to use this term "mozganje," brainstorming,

6 later on, since Dr. Karadzic used to invite quite a few people for these

7 discussions or consultations, and Professor Koljevic many years later used

8 to joke about it, because these meetings were very frequently held in the

9 evenings, which he, as a person, did not like because it simply did not

10 suit his biorhythm.

11 Q. What was the joke, then?

12 A. Well, all of us used to call the meetings of this type Karadzic's

13 brainstorming, later on.

14 Q. Did you -- did you ever hear or were you aware of any meetings

15 that were called meetings of the Expanded Presidency?

16 A. Those of us who were members of the staff - and I say this with

17 full responsibility - never called it Expanded Presidency.

18 Q. Were you aware of any such body that was called the Expanded

19 Presidency?

20 A. No. For us, such a body did not exist. We knew of meetings that

21 were most often convened by Dr. Karadzic, and one never knew for sure who

22 it was that he was going to invite to the meeting. It was, of course,

23 certain that Professor Koljevic would be invited, if he was there, and

24 Mrs. Plavsic, if she was at Pale.

25 Q. Did you personally, during the time when you were at Kikinda and

Page 22164

1 before you went to Mali Dom, have any communication with Ratko Mladic?

2 A. Yes. Over the telephone.

3 Q. How -- can you say how frequently you had telephone contact with

4 him?

5 A. Well, when Ratko Mladic - General Mladic - called, and if I was

6 there to answer the phone, I know for a fact that it was him who called us

7 more than me placing a call to him, as far as I remember. I called

8 General Milovanovic most frequently, because it had to do with

9 humanitarian convoys.

10 Q. When General Mladic rang, were there particular people that he

11 generally or frequently wished to speak to?

12 A. General Mladic normally asked for Dr. Karadzic, and if

13 Dr. Karadzic wasn't there, then, in his military tone, he would ask for a

14 very brief message - always a very brief message - to be relayed to him.

15 He always asked that Dr. Karadzic phone him back, normally as a matter of

16 urgency, and along those lines.

17 Q. During that period when you were at Kikinda, did you at any time

18 actually see General Mladic in Pale?

19 A. To tell you the truth, I can't really recall any instances whilst

20 we were at Kikinda that I myself had occasion to see him, because he

21 didn't go to the office where I was -- where I had my desk.

22 Q. When Mr. Krajisnik was on the telephone in his office while you

23 were working there, were you in a position to hear his conversation?

24 A. Most often I did because the telephone was in that office.

25 Exceptionally, I'd leave the office because it wasn't really appropriate

Page 22165

1 for me to be sitting at a desk with him behind my back, talking on the

2 phone.

3 Q. Were there occasions, then, when you did overhear his

4 conversation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Rare or quite often or --

7 A. Well, often.

8 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Krajisnik discussing military strategy on

9 the telephone?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Krajisnik giving any sort of orders or

12 instructions apparently to anybody connected with the military over the

13 telephone?

14 A. I apologise. Could you please clarify, what instructions are you

15 referring to? What sort of instructions do you have in mind?

16 Q. Well, first of all, did you ever hear Mr. Krajisnik giving any

17 sort of orders or instructions apparently to anybody military over the

18 telephone?

19 A. At that time, the instructions which would take the form of

20 requests or discussions also came from me, when they had to do with

21 humanitarian convoys.

22 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Krajisnik giving any sort of orders or

23 instructions to any police force over the telephone?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just seek clarification of the last answer of

25 the witness.

Page 22166

1 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Cenic, the question was whether you ever did hear

3 Mr. Krajisnik giving any sort of orders or instructions apparently to

4 anybody military over the telephone. Your answer was: "At that time, the

5 instructions which would take the form of request or discussions also came

6 from me, when they had to do with humanitarian convoys."

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik had, on several

8 occasions, talked about humanitarian convoys which were on their way to

9 Sarajevo, and which the army was to allow safe passage for.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And these -- so I do understand that what you

11 said, the instructions which would take the form of requests or

12 discussions, were also instructions or requests and discussion of the

13 military but, you say, on the subject of humanitarian convoys, and you say

14 "they also came from me." Does that mean that you passed these messages

15 for Mr. Krajisnik? It's not entirely clear to me what you meant by "also

16 came from me."

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Back then, Your Honour, humanitarian

18 convoys were always a problem, and ensuring their safe passage too. In

19 view of the fact that in a certain way I was able to persuade both General

20 Mladic and General Milovanovic about the necessity to take immediate

21 action, it was felt -- or rather, as Mr. Karadzic himself put it, I spoke

22 their language, as it were, and that is why it was in a way left to me.

23 Ceca, which is my nickname, they would say, "You will best explain this to

24 them."

25 Another explanation of this is that initially we had conflicts or,

Page 22167

1 rather, I came into conflict with General Mladic and General Milovanovic,

2 because I did not allow anyone to address me in such a tone of voice. I

3 made it quite clear that they may as well be generals but not even my

4 father addressed me in that tone.

5 As a result of this, I seemed to have gained the respect of both

6 General Mladic and General Milovanovic and we no longer had any

7 communication problems.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, if they would disagree, I take it that you

9 would send with a message, try to convince General Mladic to let a convoy

10 through, and if finally he said, no, for military purposes, I'd rather not

11 at this moment have this convoy in this area, what would then happen?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then General Mladic or General

13 Milovanovic - this in fact happened in one instance, what you just

14 described - they asked that they be sent any sort of document, anything in

15 writing, to that effect. And the document would normally be a letter from

16 Mr. Karadzic containing information about the items transported in the

17 convoy, whether these were medicines, foodstuffs, or something else, and

18 the escorts to the convoy. It was my duty to convey this to them, and

19 then the service of Mr. Karadzic was supposed to react. And when I say

20 his service, I meant Dr. Karadzic and his secretary.

21 However, sometimes or, rather, quite frequently, all of this would

22 be a matter of urgency, requiring immediate action, and convoys had to be

23 allowed passage basically just on the basis of a verbal request.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the question started with Mr. Krajisnik, whether

25 he ever gave any orders or instructions. Then in your answer you moved to

Page 22168

1 Mr. Karadzic, and you gave an example which is not entirely clear to me

2 yet. But let's perhaps first stick with your answer, your example you

3 gave.

4 I think you said that General Mladic wanted to have some kind of a

5 paper. Paper from whom?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received a piece of paper, an

7 announcement of some sort. Sometimes the notice was short, but the convoy

8 that was supposed to arrive would be announced, and General Mladic, and

9 particularly Milovanovic, asked instructions in writing; a piece of paper,

10 any sort of writing. They did not want this to be only a verbal

11 announcement. When I mentioned Mr. Krajisnik and even myself --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you for a moment. You said they -- you

13 received a piece of paper, announcement, and then you said General Mladic,

14 and particularly Milovanovic, asked instructions in writing. Who would

15 give those instructions?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Karadzic.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that then -- you're talking about a piece

18 of paper which is an announcement. Was that the same as the instructions

19 or were the instructions accompanying or related in any way to the

20 announcement?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic would sign accompanying

22 letters at the time, and together with his letter, there would also be a

23 piece of paper announcing the convoy that was arriving. Different

24 organisations were involved in the sending of humanitarian aid or other

25 things, so that every organisation enclosed a piece of paper in their

Page 22169

1 turn. There were a number of charity organisations, international ones

2 and local ones, that had started sending aid at the time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I interrupted you where you continued your

4 answer, starting with, "When I mentioned Mr. Krajisnik and even

5 myself ..." Could I ask you to take up your answer from there and

6 continue.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, on several occasions,

8 asked General Milovanovic to react as quickly as possible, and to allow

9 for a safe passage to these convoys.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they ever oppose or did they ever turn down

11 such a request? Perhaps I should ask you about General Milovanovic

12 because you're mainly talking about him.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometimes there were lengthy

14 discussions because, as I've already said, the generals found it difficult

15 sometimes to react to a telephone request or a verbal request or a verbal

16 description, describing as to what needed to be done.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's procedure [Realtime transcript read in

18 error "Let's proceed here"] but as far as the content is concerned.

19 The transcript says "Let's proceed here," but it's: "That is

20 procedure." That is, do I need written documents or can I act on a

21 telephone message? But as far as the content of it was concerned, whether

22 or not to let the convoy through.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've already told you, sometimes

24 there were problems in letting convoys or lorries through. Sometimes

25 those were not convoys but single lorries, and I suppose that those

Page 22170

1 lorries had their escorts. So in your answer, I can say -- in your

2 question, I can answer yes, there were problems when the military simply

3 didn't want to react in a positive way. And as I've already told you,

4 they would ask for a piece of paper.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And finally, if they were against letting

6 through a convoy or a truck, finally, did they ever refuse, at the very

7 end, to let it through, or if they got the written instructions or

8 whatever piece of paper they would need, would they finally, despite their

9 opposition, do what they were requested to do?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once they received a piece of paper,

11 as far as I know, the convoys were allowed to go through. They were not

12 stopped. When I say "convoys," I also refer to a single lorry, whatever

13 was in question, so all those could go through. But sometimes they had to

14 wait until the paper was issued, taken over to them, enclosed with the

15 request. So sometimes convoys or lorries would have to wait, which was

16 not beneficial to anybody.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the reasons for opposition on the part of

18 General Milovanovic, and I don't know whether it would be true for General

19 Mladic as well, would these be military considerations, such as, well, the

20 situation on the ground militarily needs not to be disturbed by any

21 convoys or any trucks going through, or would there be other reasons such

22 as, "Why do they need humanitarian aid? We don't see the need for that."

23 I mean, the opposition could be for various reasons. Could you tell us,

24 in those discussions, what kind of -- what the reasons for their

25 opposition was?

Page 22171

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only quote General Milovanovic

2 from memory because I most often spoke to him. And he would say, "How do

3 I know what is in the lorry, in the convoy or in whatever?"

4 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand this to be that the nature of the

5 opposition was the uncertainty about the -- what was in the trucks and

6 what was in the convoy which could create a military risk or -- is that a

7 correct understanding?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. More or less. That would be

9 the correct understanding, because I suppose - and I know - that some of

10 those lorries were sealed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers. Mr. Stewart.

12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mrs. Cenic, in 1992, when you were in Pale, did you ever hear of a

14 body called the National Security Council?

15 A. At the time, I really don't remember any such body.

16 Q. The -- after you moved to Mali Dom, and you told the Trial Chamber

17 this afternoon that you did work in connection with the National Assembly,

18 who did you, if there was somebody you reported to, who did you report to

19 in your work?

20 A. When it came to the so-called press clippings or press summaries,

21 they were based on the printed matter that we could get hold of, I would

22 give those to Mr. Krajisnik, because at the time I was officially

23 affiliated with the National Assembly.

24 Q. Did you do other work in connection with the National Assembly

25 apart from your work in relation to press materials?

Page 22172

1 A. At that time, the sessions of the National Assembly always implied

2 that no matter where people were employed, they had to be nearby in order

3 to help with the technical and administrative work. However, I cannot say

4 with any degree of certainty whether during that short period of time

5 there were any sessions or not.

6 Q. Were you involved with what you described as the technical and

7 administrative work?

8 A. I was involved in that. When sessions were held and while I

9 worked with Professor Koljevic, the few of us had to be there to help out.

10 Q. So -- well, without in the first place going into too much detail,

11 what was the nature of the technical and administrative work with which

12 you helped?

13 A. For example, if a session of the National Assembly was taking

14 place - and I'm referring to the period when I worked with Professor

15 Koljevic - there were no mobile phones, and communication channels were

16 not so good, so sometimes we had to act as couriers, we had to distribute

17 materials, we had to count votes, because there were no technical means to

18 replace human work. And also, Professor Koljevic later on liked me to be

19 around.

20 Q. Now, you've referred in that last answer to the period when you

21 worked with Professor Koljevic. Could you -- could you explain when and

22 how you came to work for Professor Koljevic.

23 A. The short period of time during which I prepared reports and press

24 summaries was the time when Mr. Koljevic did not have his own office or

25 his own service at his disposal. Mr. Krajisnik then asked me to come and

Page 22173

1 told me that I would be the best person for Professor Koljevic because

2 Professor Koljevic did not have anybody that would help him out. He

3 didn't have a service. Mr. Krajisnik then helped him and organised

4 matters so that Professor Koljevic could have an office of his own, and

5 then Professor Koljevic and I started working together on the second floor

6 of this small building called Mali Dom. First we shared an office, and

7 later on we moved to a bigger office. Since Mrs. Plavsic spent most of

8 her time in Belgrade and would arrive only rarely, she would use that one

9 small office and Professor Koljevic and I moved to the offices above

10 Mr. Krajisnik's office, also on the second floor. That is when I got my

11 office and Professor Koljevic had an office of his own. And we were

12 separated only by a very narrow hallway.

13 Q. So how long after you had moved to Mali Dom do you say it was that

14 you began then to work in that way for Professor Koljevic?

15 A. It was a few weeks later.

16 Q. And in those few weeks, then, before you went to work for

17 Professor Koljevic, did you work in the same office as Mr. Krajisnik, in a

18 similar way to the way in which you had worked at Kikinda?

19 A. No. At that time, there was a very, very small office.

20 Mr. Krajisnik's office was to the right, as you came up the stairs, and

21 the small office that I'm referring to was to the left. It was very, very

22 small and we used to call it the ICU room.

23 Q. Sorry, is that an acronym or -- is that in English?

24 A. It was so small that we had to name it. So we called it a shock

25 room. It was rather claustrophobic and small.

Page 22174

1 Q. Were you able, during that time at Mali Dom, were you able to form

2 an impression of how Mr. Krajisnik's working day was spent; on what sort

3 of matters, with what people?

4 A. A lot of people came from everywhere. There were deputies who

5 came, the vice-president of the Assembly was also in the same building.

6 There were a lot of international meetings, as it were, with UNPROFOR,

7 with various liaison officers, and I was very much aware of the fact that

8 when I moved to work with Professor Koljevic, there were Karadzic's

9 brainstorming sessions because of which we were all forced to stay at work

10 late in the evening.

11 Q. And the length of a typical working day for Mr. Krajisnik at that

12 time was what?

13 A. Well, like everybody else save for Mr. Karadzic, who came to work

14 a bit later - he arrived at nine, or by nine the latest - and sometimes we

15 would say until 2, 3, or 4.00 in the morning on the following day.

16 Q. Now, when you worked for Professor Koljevic, were you in a

17 position to observe and know with any closeness what work he did?

18 A. Professor Koljevic liked to gather people around him. The

19 commissioners would come to see Professor Koljevic, the commissioners for

20 certain regions, before those were abolished. Mr. Nikola Poplasen,

21 Mr. Radovanovic, Mr. Jovanovic. They would all come. Djokanovic, of

22 course.

23 Professor Koljevic also spoke to UNPROFOR, and he was the

24 president of the state body for cooperation with the UN and the

25 international humanitarian organisations, while I was the secretary of

Page 22175

1 that body. However, I'm talking about a body that was established at a

2 later stage, but even before that, Professor Koljevic had contacts with

3 all these organisations. There were also international mediators,

4 negotiators, foreign journalists, who wanted to interview him. It was

5 easy to talk to him because he spoke really good English.

6 In other words, he was active from early morning to late in the

7 evening, and I repeat that Dr. Karadzic called those famous meetings of

8 his in his office and that took up a lot of our evenings, and he did that

9 because Dr. Karadzic's biorhythm was somewhat different than everybody

10 else's; he liked to work in the evening and during the night. He was a

11 night owl.

12 Q. You mentioned Mr. Nikola Poplasen. Did he have some specific area

13 of responsibility?

14 A. At that time, Nikola Poplasen was the commissioner for Vogosca,

15 Ilijas, and those municipalities.

16 Q. And what was the -- so far as you were aware, what was the nature

17 of his contact or dealings with Professor Koljevic?

18 A. They all came to deliver verbal reports as to what was going on,

19 on the ground, what the situation was like, what the atmosphere was. That

20 was more or less it.

21 Q. Deliver verbal reports to whom?

22 A. Primarily to Professor Koljevic. Actually, when we shared that

23 one office, I attended all those meetings. This just could not be

24 avoided. We had to share the same place when these people came, and we

25 talked. However, those were verbal reports and, truth be told, I can't

Page 22176

1 remember a single written report that was given to Professor Koljevic.

2 Maybe only Dragan Djokanovic used some written forms of reporting, as far

3 as I can remember, and the others didn't.

4 Q. When Mr. Poplasen reported to Professor Koljevic in the way you

5 described and you said you attended those meetings, was Mr. Krajisnik

6 present?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What was -- you mentioned Mr. Radovanovic as well. Do you

9 remember his first name?

10 A. Miroslav.

11 Q. Did he have a particular area of responsibility?

12 A. I think so. But believe me, as I sit here, I can't remember what

13 was his area. I'm sure of Djokanovic, Poplasen, Jovanovic and what their

14 areas were, but I don't know what Radovanovic was in charge of because I

15 have to tell you that this was sheer escapism, escape from reality. We

16 chatted about this and that and the other more than anything else. These

17 were not serious meetings that had to have an agenda, of which records had

18 to be kept or any such thing. Those who knew Professor Koljevic obviously

19 will understand that style of work, if I may call it that.

20 Q. Well, I'll come back to that in a moment, if I may. Can I just go

21 on to specifics for a moment? You said you did remember Mr. Jovanovic's

22 area of responsibility. What was that?

23 A. Herzegovina.

24 Q. And Mr. Dragan Djokanovic?

25 A. The area around the Drina, Bratunac, Skelani, and that general

Page 22177

1 area.

2 Q. And you said at the very end of your previous answer, "Those who

3 knew Professor Koljevic obviously will understand that style of work ..."

4 Well, because you're the witness, Mrs. Cenic, and you were there, could

5 you enlighten the Trial Chamber as to what that style of work was that

6 would lead to an understanding.

7 A. Professor Koljevic liked to talk about culture, of course, about

8 Shakespeare, about literature, about people in general. So that very

9 often he would escape and try to find a resort on those topics. People

10 that I have mentioned knew him even before the war, before all of these

11 events, so the tone of their conversation was always of that nature.

12 Q. Can we take it that -- I'm being serious in this introduction,

13 that however much discussion there was about Shakespeare or literature in

14 these meetings, that these men, Poplasen, Djokanovic, Jovanovic,

15 Radovanovic, they were at least attempting to report and convey to

16 Professor Koljevic something about what was going on in their areas of

17 responsibility?

18 A. Yes. With the proviso that these oral reports lasted for perhaps

19 half an hour, and the remainder of the time - and these meetings were

20 sometimes longish - was dedicated to topics from the field of culture or

21 about what to do next. Professor Koljevic had ideas about organising

22 different cultural and educational events. The remainder of the

23 conversation had to do with these topics and such topics. Only half an

24 hour would be used for reports about the state of affairs, the situation,

25 the problems.

Page 22178

1 Q. So there would, would there, be some report about the situation on

2 the ground in the particular municipalities concerned?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall whether that included reports or information about

5 the military situation?

6 A. Well, as it was called at the time, the security situation in

7 these municipalities, and the related problems were discussed. That's to

8 say the actual events in these municipalities, numbers of those killed.

9 That would be it for the most part.

10 Q. Was there discussion or report at those -- at these meetings about

11 population movements?

12 A. There was discussion about that too, and about the quality of

13 people's lives, how many people there were in the municipalities, the

14 problem caused by the fact that the people kept leaving municipalities,

15 that there was this outflow of population.

16 Q. Was that outflow, did that relate to outflow of just one ethnic

17 group or more than one ethnic group?

18 A. In this particular period of time, the Muslim or, rather, Bosniak

19 population, as well as the Croat population, was scarce. As far as I

20 remember, the problem consisted in the fact that the Serbs started leaving

21 as well. Another difficulty was posed by the fact that refugees or

22 displaced persons kept arriving from other municipalities with all the

23 problems that they experienced. The situation was rather odd and quite

24 serious. The local population was leaving and there was the influx of the

25 populations from other municipalities.

Page 22179

1 Q. Now, are you -- in that last description, I'd just like to be

2 clear. Are you talking about Pale or are you talking about the

3 municipalities that were the areas of responsibility of these gentlemen

4 who visited Dr. Koljevic?

5 A. I'm talking in general terms about the areas from which these

6 commissioners originated.

7 Q. Can you remember -- I take it that at some point in your life you

8 have heard the phrase "ethnic cleansing." Just a yes -- just asking you

9 whether you have ever heard that phrase.

10 A. This coined phrase of such grievous substance was imparted to me

11 or, rather, I heard it from foreign journalists because, until then, we

12 had been discussing refugees when we were referring in general terms to

13 all of us in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Can you remember when you first heard that phrase?

15 A. In the beginning of autumn, when contacts with the people from the

16 outside, the contacts that I had, became more frequent.

17 Q. So by the time of these meetings with Mr. Poplasen, Radovanovic,

18 Jovanovic and Djokanovic and Professor Koljevic, by the time those

19 meetings began, had you by then heard this phrase?

20 A. Before that, before Professor Koljevic and I started working

21 together, I had heard of this accusation of ethnic cleansing.

22 Q. What did you -- at the time, what did you understand it to mean?

23 A. I understood it to mean an accusation that members of the Bosniak

24 population were being forced or were under pressure to leave their homes,

25 as were members of the Croat population.

Page 22180

1 Q. Have you any reason to doubt that, by the time these meetings

2 began, Professor Koljevic was as familiar with that phrase as you were?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Well, perhaps I expressed my question clumsily. By the time these

5 meetings began, do you consider that Professor Koljevic was as familiar

6 with that phrase as you were?

7 A. Yes. Professor Koljevic frequently interacted with international

8 organisations and authorities, including foreign journalists. Naturally,

9 he was often asked that same question.

10 Q. Did any question of ethnic cleansing come up in any of the

11 meetings with those four men; Poplasen, Radovanovic, Jovanovic,

12 Djokanovic?

13 A. The gentlemen I mentioned, including Mr. Koljevic and myself, all

14 of us were refugees as well. That's to say we had all moved away from our

15 homes. And we all found it hard to understand this accusation, which had

16 to do with ethnic cleansing.

17 Q. Did --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my -- is this to be an affirmative answer?

19 The question was whether any question of ethnic cleansing came up in any

20 of the meetings. Should I conclude from your answer that it did, where

21 you said that you all found it hard to understand this accusation, that

22 you discussed it?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentlemen I'm referring to also

24 read about ethnic cleansing and about accusations that there was ethnic

25 cleansing underway, and discussed it. We discussed it amongst ourselves.

Page 22181

1 As I said, we found it hard to fathom the accusation in view of the fact

2 that we had all moved out of our homes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask you a question? I can imagine, if you

4 say "I moved out of my house," would that exclude, in your opinion, or in

5 the opinion of those who you're talking about at that moment, that a

6 similar thing happened to Bosniaks or Muslims elsewhere?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. We were of the opinion -- I

8 was of the opinion too -- that the same misfortune befell others who were

9 forced to leave their homes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Including Muslims, Croats?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Including Bosniaks, Croats, Jews,

12 Gypsies; all.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, let me just reread your answer. You said

14 you had all moved out of -- "... we had all moved out of our homes."

15 Was that moving out because you were forced to do so, either by

16 persons or circumstances, or was it your own free will to say, well, I'd

17 rather move out of my house?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was by no means of my own free

19 will, or anyone other's, for that matter. I am still homesick about my

20 Sarajevo.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said that the same misfortune befell

22 others who were forced to leave their homes. You said so in answer to my

23 question whether you would exclude that the same happened to others. Were

24 you aware at that time that this happened to these others?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because the makeup of

Page 22182

1 municipalities changed completely.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And -- yes, but -- and you thought it was due

3 to similar moving out, that is not voluntarily moving out, people perhaps

4 being as homesick as you were, in these other municipalities? Is that a

5 correct understanding of your testimony?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe everyone wanted to return

9 to their homes, just as I did.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you moved out due to pressure or

11 circumstances or -- what happened to you? I mean, I'm seeking the

12 comparison to what you thought happened to others as well. Could you be a

13 bit more precise? Was life miserable? Were you forced out at gunpoint?

14 What was it?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the apartment block where I

16 lived, where my parents had an apartment, already by that time there were

17 no people left there. The apartment block had been shot at, there were

18 armies and uniforms that I had never seen before, and members of this army

19 wearing the sort of uniform were seen entering the apartment block and

20 were seen around it. It wasn't even safe to open the front door.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Was this -- was your apartment situated such that it

22 could have been for military purposes that these members of the army were

23 entering the apartment block?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, in early April, I

25 don't really know what was important strategically and militarily in and

Page 22183

1 around that building. So I don't see really why a uniformed person, and

2 particularly a person wearing black or green camouflage uniform, would be

3 entering the building armed.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can I understand this as that you considered

5 that to be intimidation by armed forces against those who were living

6 there?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And were civilians living there?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that period of time, some of the

10 families had already left the building. Of course, there were still quite

11 a few civilians who continued living there, especially so because the

12 ethnic makeup of the residents in the apartment block where I had grown up

13 was also mixed.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like to return to one of your earlier

15 questions, when you were asked about the outflow. Mr. Stewart asked you

16 about whether population movements were discussed, and you said -- the

17 question then was, was that outflow, did that relate to outflow of just

18 one ethnic group or more than one ethnic group? And then you answered:

19 "In this particular period of time, the Muslim or, rather, Bosniak

20 population, as well as the Croat population, was scarce. As far as I

21 remember, the problem consisted in the fact that the Serbs started leaving

22 as well."

23 I have some difficulties in fully understanding your answer. When

24 you said -- and let's go it portion by portion. You said the Bosniak as

25 well as the Croatian population was scarce.

Page 22184

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They were in a minority, both

2 the Bosniak and Croat population. Some of the Serbs had also gone to

3 Serbia and what then happened was that Serbs continued leaving in an

4 organised fashion.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the next question was whether that

6 description, whether it was just about Pale or whether this was -- whether

7 you were talking about the municipalities that were the areas of

8 responsibilities of these gentlemen, and then you said, "I'm talking

9 general terms about the areas from which these commissioners originated."

10 Is this is to say that there was no outflow of Bosniaks and Croats from

11 any of these areas which -- well, it's a considerable outflow or

12 considerable movement of the population?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, by that time,

14 considerable numbers, although I can't give you an exact percentage, but

15 definitely more than half of Croats and Bosniaks, had left the area. When

16 I'm talking about the population moving out, I wanted to say that the

17 local population continued gradually to move out, so their numbers

18 steadily decreased. However, at the same time refugees from other

19 municipalities were arriving in the area. This resulted in problems

20 because they arrived there practically with nothing.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You two times said "the area." Which area

22 exactly did you have in mind?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These areas, I'm talking about

24 Herzegovina, Vogosca and Ilijas were areas that I mentioned earlier on,

25 and the area of Bratunac, Skelani, that general area too.

Page 22185

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you made a comparison between your fate and

2 the fate of Muslims and Croats. You just told us that -- let me just find

3 your words literally. When you said more than half of Croats and Bosniaks

4 had left the area --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Areas.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Areas. Would that be over the whole of the

7 territory, both Bosniak-controlled and Serb-controlled or would that just

8 be --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can talk in general terms in this

10 context. This applies to Bosnia-Herzegovina, all across the board,

11 because hardly anyone stayed behind in the same area where they resided.

12 At least this was rarely the case as of April 1992 onwards. I had met

13 people from different parts of the country who were on the move, who had

14 moved away from their homes, for these misfortunate circumstances, to call

15 them that way. Also -- sorry.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. You said "also".

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just as Banja Luka was no longer

18 Banja Luka, Sarajevo was no longer Sarajevo. Not a single town in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina was what it used to be. Perhaps with the exception of

20 some which were predominantly mono-ethnic in terms of their population,

21 but then these towns again experienced an influx of population and

22 consequently must have gone through a change.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand that if parts of the population

24 would move out from other areas people would move in. Just to see whether

25 I well understood your testimony, you described how by intimidation, you

Page 22186

1 were forced to leave where you lived. And you compared your situation

2 with the situation of Muslims and Croats who left from the places where

3 they lived and you told, I think, of similar circumstances. That means

4 also by -- intimidated by the situation that they would leave their area

5 just as you had left yours. Is that a correct understanding?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My understanding was, at the time,

7 that people who were leaving felt insecure wherever they were, regardless

8 of their ethnicity, and were merely seeking security and safety for them

9 and -- themselves and their families. It's difficult for me to say who

10 was worse off, who was better off, when we are talking about individual

11 fates. But this was and is my opinion.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you find it difficult to

13 make a comparison who was better off, who was worse off, but if we are

14 talking about these movements of population, was that, since you talked

15 about changing of the composition in certain municipalities, changing of

16 the composition of -- ethnic composition of the population, that this was

17 large-scale movement or medium-scale or small-scale?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Depending on the town, probably. I

19 think that most of the people were in search of security and safety. That

20 was the case in 1992 and definitely also in 1993. Therefore, the moving

21 out of the population did not take place on such a large scale in 1992

22 because based on the information I had about the whereabouts of the people

23 at the time, the people hoped that matters would be settled quite soon.

24 Later on, as I started working in this state committee and after the

25 accords were signed in particular, and after the statement of the chief of

Page 22187

1 the Red Cross for Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Somarruga, there were requests

2 to the effect that the non-Serb population be allowed to move out of the

3 Krajina. I know because in 1993, I was faced with this problem,

4 practically on a daily basis. It was at that time that I became aware of

5 the numbers of people who were leaving or trying to leave.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Just to take Sarajevo and Pale for example where you

7 moved out, in 1992, by the end of 1992, were the majority of Serbs that

8 used to live in what was now a Bosnian Muslim-controlled Sarajevo still

9 there, or had most of them left that part of Sarajevo?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Sarajevo was a specific

11 case and a very difficult case, because those more fortunate ones left on

12 time, as it were. However, many Serbs stayed in Sarajevo, hoping that

13 eventually they would be able to leave. I know because I myself

14 participated in a number of activities aimed at establishing contact with

15 these people in order to help them, either through UNPROFOR or through

16 some private channels. A lot of families were split. They would come to

17 our offices in Pale with dozens of requests a day, asking us to help them

18 to get hold of their families in Sarajevo and to help them transfer either

19 to Pale or elsewhere.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you consider it to be wrong that you

21 were not protected in the place where you lived, and that you were in such

22 a way intimidated that you had to leave?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. None of us would

24 probably ever recover from that feeling.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, we have now talked about population movements

Page 22188

1 and Sarajevo being different, Serbs moving out, Muslims and Croats moving

2 out from where they lived, depending on the municipality, whether these

3 were larger or smaller numbers. Did you discuss these matters among

4 yourselves? That's with the persons you earlier mentioned.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. With sadness and with

6 nostalgia, all of us spoke with a lot of emotions, especially during those

7 years because we had all been through the same life.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Have you spoken with -- well, let's say a

9 representative or at least members of the other nationalities or

10 ethnicities after the war about these -- about what you just described to

11 us?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is also the nature of my

13 job, and whatever I have been involved in over the past few years is

14 dedicated to Bosnia-Herzegovina. I often talk to my colleagues as well as

15 to my friends, in an attempt to prevent something like this ever happening

16 to any of us again.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you -- did you experience that Muslims and Croats

18 you've talked to had similar feelings as you have, that is being sad that

19 they had to leave and could you understand that, if they did express such

20 feelings?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I understand them and,

22 of course, I have listened to their sad stories. They had been through

23 the same things as all of us and we have arrived at a conclusion that

24 there is a lot of grounds for comparison in how each of us felt during the

25 various stages of war. First of all, there came disbelief. Then rage.

Page 22189

1 Then anger. Then sadness. There was also hope. And those feelings took

2 turns. And I think that the stories are the same, stories told by Serbs

3 as well as the Bosniaks, as well as the Croats.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

5 Looking at the clock, Mr. Stewart, I took quite some time. I'm

6 aware. If you would say "you interrupted me," but I would nevertheless

7 like to put a few additional questions. We have limited time. If you

8 would say we could restart after the break, then we'll restart after the

9 break.

10 MR. STEWART: That's no problem at all for me, Your Honour. I'm

11 in your hands.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until 20 minutes past four.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.28 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

17 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mrs. Cenic, you've mentioned those -- I won't repeat the names all

19 over again, those four particular men who came to visit Mr. Koljevic as

20 you described. Were there others in addition to those four in a similar

21 position in relation to other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina that came to see

22 him?

23 A. I don't remember any others in a similar or same position. I

24 remember the people that I have mentioned very well, and I remember their

25 visits.

Page 22190

1 Q. I forgot to mention something. You did it any way, actually,

2 Mrs. Cenic. I've been asked to ask if you could just pause after my

3 question because you're hearing my question in English. Maybe somebody

4 told you because you did it naturally then any way. So -- but if you

5 could do that it would be helpful, thank you.

6 The -- when -- so let's stick with those four, then. When any of

7 those four gentlemen was there with Professor Koljevic, was -- did

8 Professor Koljevic express any concerns with any of them about ethnic

9 cleansing?

10 A. As I've already told you, for all of us, including

11 Professor Koljevic, those were accusations that made no sense to us

12 whatsoever. Professor Koljevic, himself a displaced person, a refugee,

13 shared that opinion. Professor Koljevic and myself spent a lot of time

14 together. The only time we didn't spend together was when he attended

15 meetings without me and in the evenings when we said our good nights to go

16 to bed, and while we were together, we spoke about this quite a lot.

17 Q. What -- what did you understand, at its highest, its worst, what

18 did you understand the accusation against Serbs to be?

19 A. We understood at the time that the accusation implied that all

20 this was part of some plan, this ethnic cleansing, and that is why we were

21 absolutely baffled by this accusation.

22 Q. And if it were, just for the moment, if it were or had been some

23 plan, what did you understand the accusation to involve, as far as the

24 actions in implementation of that plan were concerned?

25 A. I don't fully understand your question, with regard to the fact.

Page 22191

1 Q. Let me rephrase it, then, Mrs. Cenic. If there was, which you're

2 saying was the accusation, there was some plan to commit ethnic cleansing,

3 that's -- that's what you're saying, you're not saying it happened but

4 you're saying that's the starting point of the accusation, agreed? Just

5 trying to set the base line.

6 A. I'm not aware of any such plan, nor did I ever see it. I never

7 came across such a plan. That's one thing.

8 Q. Sorry --

9 A. And secondly.

10 Q. Pause for a moment, Mrs. Cenic. I'm having difficulty making

11 myself clear here. If there is a plan -- please just bear with me for a

12 moment. If there is a plan, it's a plan to do something, rights? So what

13 I'm getting at, if it was a plan to commit ethnic cleansing, the concept

14 of ethnic cleansing, what did you understand the accusation to be? That

15 there was a plan by the Bosnian Serbs, obviously? There was a plan to do

16 something which constituted ethnic cleansing. What did you understand the

17 accusation to be, as to what was to be done? What was it said that there

18 was a plan to do?

19 A. Well, that there was a plan to systematically expel, by force, or

20 by other means, all those who were of non-Serb origin.

21 Q. Did you ever, in 1992, read or hear of anything to support the

22 accusation that there was such a plan by Bosnian Serb leaders?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In particular, did Professor Koljevic ever say anything to you to

25 imply any recognition or concern or fear on his part that there might be

Page 22192

1 such a plan by any of the Bosnian Serb leaders?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did Professor Koljevic ever say to you or suggest to you that

4 Mr. Krajisnik had any different idea, different plan, different policy,

5 from Professor Koljevic's own, in relation to any such matters of

6 population movements approached at other ethnic groups?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did Professor Koljevic ever suggest to you that in any way

9 Mr. Krajisnik was aggressive, war mongering, in any way?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did he ever make any comment or any suggestion to you that

12 Mr. Krajisnik was not committed to peaceful resolution of conflict, as far

13 as it could be achieved?

14 A. No. If any such thing had been the case, I would not be sitting

15 here today.

16 Q. So just to clarify, if any suggestion of any of those matters had

17 ever come to you from Professor Koljevic, did you know of anything to

18 support such a suggestion?

19 A. Never, ever did Professor Koljevic suggest in any way that his way

20 of thinking differs from Mr. Krajisnik's way of thinking, especially when

21 it came to the numerous efforts to negotiate in order to find a solution.

22 Q. Was there any discussion at any of these meetings with any of

23 those four gentlemen, Mr. Poplasen and the other three, with

24 Professor Koljevic, was there any discussion which suggested any cover-up

25 to protect anybody present at that meeting or anybody else?

Page 22193

1 A. Are you implying that something was hidden, was covered up?

2 Q. No, I'm asking whether -- I'm not implying, I'm asking whether

3 there was any discussion about or with a view to any such cover-up.

4 A. I know what was said in my presence. And I never gained an

5 impression that there was a cover-up, that something was being hidden.

6 Moreover, please bear in mind that those people were commissioners, that

7 they would go to their respective territories and they would come back.

8 For example, Mr. Poplasen was not in Vogosca and Ilijas all the time. He

9 would just go there and then he would return, after having spent some time

10 there, a few days, at the most. He would then come back and return to his

11 area. This is -- this was the procedure. This is what it looked like.

12 Q. Did -- at those meetings, did any of those four men raise any

13 questions or make any reports as to the degree of discipline and control

14 in the areas for which they were responsible?

15 A. Of course there were comments to that effect. And it was said

16 that a lot of people, a lot of groups, I don't know what else to call

17 them, were not under the control of the military, under any command, for

18 that matter, and that they exerted a very bad influence on the overall

19 situation, which was rather difficult as it was. That was one of the

20 issues that were discussed at the meetings.

21 Q. How would you compare, if you can, the working relationship at

22 that time between, on the one hand, Mr. Poplasen and Professor Koljevic,

23 and on the other hand, Mr. Poplasen and Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. As for the relation between Poplasen and Krajisnik, I don't know

25 anything about it because I never saw them together at a meeting. I

Page 22194

1 didn't, and I can't vouch for anything else.

2 Q. If I ask you the same question but in relation to Mr. Djokanovic,

3 is your answer the same or different?

4 A. Mr. Djokanovic was much closer to Professor Koljevic, and that

5 relationship existed when I came to Pale, because I used to see them

6 together. And as a result of that, we quite often joked at

7 Mr. Djokanovic's expense and I'm not aware of any meetings that took place

8 between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Djokanovic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I get a bit confused. Your first

10 question was about relation between Mr. Poplasen and Professor Koljevic on

11 the one hand and Mr. Poplasen and Mr. Krajisnik on the other hand. That

12 question was answered half, only in relation to Mr. Poplasen and

13 Krajisnik. Then you asked the same question but in relation to

14 Mr. Djokanovic. Then I take it Mr. Poplasen and Mr. Djokanovic or did you

15 mean to say Djokanovic and Krajisnik and Koljevic? And then the answer

16 was that Djokanovic was much closer to Professor Koljevic.

17 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I could -- I could lead probably

18 to clarify that.


20 MR. STEWART: I had thought, I confess I had thought -- well, this

21 is not an unintelligent witness, Your Honour. I had thought she would --

22 I didn't need to elaborate the question. She seemed, with respect, to

23 understand it clearly.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the first question, at least, she answered

25 only half.

Page 22195

1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, with respect, I was asking her to

2 draw a comparison. Since she didn't know anything about one half of the

3 comparison, she did in effect answer it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Although the -- let me just reread the

5 answer to the second question.

6 MR. STEWART: I'm happy to seek to clarify it or invite

7 Your Honour to. I really don't mind at all.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I clarify, please?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, yes, you may. Perhaps that's the quickest

10 way.

11 MR. STEWART: I was going to say, Your Honour, the witness could

12 save us both the trouble.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as the Poplasen-Krajisnik

14 relationship is concerned, I don't know what the nature of that

15 relationship was because I never attended or saw the two of them in a

16 meeting, and I can't say whether their relationship was good or bad or

17 anything else because I don't know anything about that relationship and I

18 never attended a meeting, I never saw a meeting between Krajisnik and

19 Poplasen. I personally didn't, that is.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The matter is sufficiently clear to me. For

21 neither of them a proper comparison could be made. Please proceed.

22 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, may I just for one moment, then,

23 explore that?

24 Q. You said --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not aware of any meetings that took place between

Page 22196

1 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Djokanovic so it's the same.

2 MR. STEWART: Well Your Honour with respect the answer at page 34,

3 line 22, you answered, Mrs. Cenic, you said Mr. Djokanovic was much closer

4 to Professor Koljevic, closer to Professor Koljevic than what?

5 A. Your earlier question was about the Poplasen-Koljevic relationship

6 than about the Djokanovic-Koljevic relationship. The comparison was

7 between Poplasen and Djokanovic. Djokanovic was much closer to Koljevic

8 than Poplasen.

9 Q. In these meetings with the four men, I appreciate from your

10 answers you're not saying they were all four there all there at once,

11 perhaps we ought to clarify that. The -- we mentioned the four men,

12 Poplasen, Djokanovic and so on. The meetings always took place, did they,

13 with just one of them there at one time?

14 A. Sometimes they were all together but it was more like socialising.

15 Radovanovic and Poplasen, that is, together. These were informal

16 encounters more than anything else. Because we had no other life than

17 that linked with these offices. Thus, the two of them would sometimes go

18 and have a cup of coffee and chat together. Mr. Djokanovic would normally

19 arrive on his own. On several occasions, I believe Jovanovic and

20 Radovanovic also spent time together, but again in an informal

21 conversation in the office.

22 Q. Now, at that -- these meetings in which I'll embrace all the

23 meetings between Professor Koljevic and one or more of these men at which

24 you were present, was there any discussion of ill-treatment of Muslim

25 prisoners?

Page 22197

1 A. No. Prisoners were never the subject of discussion, nor were

2 prisons in general for that matter.

3 Q. Were any prisons specifically the subject of discussion at any of

4 these meetings?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, in your questions, are detention

7 facilities perhaps, not being proper prisons, are they contained in your

8 question?

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm happy to clarify that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.

11 MR. STEWART: Perhaps I will do it this way. I'm using "prisons,"

12 intending to use "prisons" in the broadest sense to include any sort of

13 prison camp, any detention facility, basically anywhere people are kept

14 against their will.

15 Q. So on that basis, prisons in that broadest sense, were any either

16 generally or specifically were prisons the subject of discussion at any of

17 those meetings?

18 A. No.

19 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. The -- during what period, in so far as you can remember, from --

21 well, to date, during what period did such meetings between

22 Professor Koljevic and one or more of those four men take place?

23 A. These meetings were no longer held in late autumn. Toward the end

24 of the year. Mr. Djokanovic would still visit relatively frequently, but

25 the meetings as such, as far as I remember, were no longer held toward the

Page 22198

1 end of the year.

2 Q. When did they begin?

3 A. To the best of my recollection, I would see, and I'm saying this

4 because at the time I wasn't working with Professor Koljevic, I would see

5 Professor himself. On my arrival at Pale, I would see him with

6 Mr. Poplasen, because Mr. Poplasen spent nights at the Kikinda facility

7 where he was put up in a room. At the time, I also saw the Professor

8 frequently with Dragan Djokanovic. When I started working with

9 Professor Koljevic, in the office, as I described before, I would see the

10 four of them arriving independently of each other, as I described.

11 Q. I want to come back to asking you something about Mr. Krajisnik.

12 In your evidence on Tuesday, I think it was, you described how, on

13 occasions, people would arrive and they would be kept waiting to see

14 Mr. Krajisnik because he was tied up with something else. Was

15 Mr. Krajisnik, for somebody turning up unannounced -- was Mr. Krajisnik a

16 hard man to get to see?

17 A. I wouldn't put it that way.

18 Q. How would you put it?

19 A. Simply the way I put it before. As different people came to

20 visit, some of them had to wait for him to be able to receive them.

21 Therefore, he didn't refuse to meet up with anyone. It was simply the

22 matter of time or, rather, when he would be able to see them.

23 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Krajisnik say something like "oh, I don't

24 want to talk to him or I don't want to talk to her, or I'm not going to

25 meet them"?

Page 22199

1 A. He never said anything of the sort to me personally, to me.

2 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Krajisnik express any derogatory sentiments

3 or thoughts about other ethnic groups?

4 A. I will tell you that had I heard from him a single discriminatory

5 sentence against anyone, even the Martians, I would not be sitting today

6 as I do.

7 Q. Did -- when you were working in Pale in the period you described

8 in 1992, can you recall Mr. Krajisnik receiving visits from any

9 significant members of other ethnic groups, non-Serbs?

10 A. As far as Pale is concerned, there were telephone calls from

11 people of other ethnicities, who were in search of their family members,

12 and they called Mr. Krajisnik.

13 Q. During that period, do you remember Mr. Krajisnik receiving visits

14 from significant people from the Serb community but not SDS members?

15 A. These people, not all of them carried their membership cards

16 along. I never asked them about their membership, and I really don't know

17 who was or was not a member. People came, talked, and then left. Whether

18 one or the other was a member or not, I really don't know.

19 Q. From everything that you saw and heard during that late summer and

20 autumn in Pale, did you form any impression as to the degree of control

21 and authority that the SDS leaders in Pale had over municipalities

22 throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23 A. I don't wish to speculate about what the SDS members controlled

24 and to what extent, if so. I can only tell you that as far as Serbs are

25 concerned, they were the strongest party with the largest membership. I

Page 22200

1 also know that in quite a few municipalities, they held high positions.

2 Moreover, many of them became SDS members only later, in 1993 in

3 particular.

4 Q. Yes. I'm not entirely sure that my question was a hundred per

5 cent clear to you, Mrs. Cenic, for which I apologise. I was asking you

6 not about the degree of control that SDS members had within the

7 municipalities but, if you'd formed an impression as to the degree of

8 control or authority among the SDS leadership in Pale over what was

9 happening in other municipalities throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 A. Back then and now, I state that they did not have great control

11 because the problem was, back then, and is today, in this so-called

12 second-rate people who mounted this sort of blockade, vis-a-vis the

13 ordinary folk, the mortals, so to speak. I thought then, and I think now,

14 that they were not aware of the -- of most of the things that were

15 happening at the time on the ground, as we used to say.

16 Q. In that answer, who did you have in mind when you referred to this

17 so-called second-rate people?

18 A. These are people who get affiliated with any sort of authority in

19 power, with the sole purpose of doing good for themselves and bad for

20 others. To put it simply, there are numerous examples, such people, when

21 they came to Pale, they most often said the things they thought the

22 authorities wanted to hear and not the things as they indeed were.

23 Furthermore, this is something I know, during these visits there was

24 always the same team of people receiving the leadership, and I believe

25 that almost never, to the best of my knowledge, in 90 per cent of the

Page 22201

1 cases, what they were saying was not the truth.

2 Q. First of all, when you said in that answer during these visits,

3 you're talking about visits by people from other municipalities to Pale or

4 Pale leaders to municipalities, or both?

5 A. I'm referring to both these cases. As far as the visits are

6 concerned, they most often took place during Assembly sessions or, for

7 instance, Professor Koljevic and I would visit Banja Luka, when we would

8 always be met by this welcoming committee of the municipal authorities.

9 Q. And just to clarify, when you talked about so-called second-rate

10 people who mounted this sort of blockade, you're talking about blockade in

11 the figurative sense to describe what you've just dealt with in the last

12 couple of answers; is that right?

13 A. Approximately, yes. I repeat: Quite a few of them were people

14 interested in their careers only, and who in most of the cases only said

15 things that were expected to be heard from them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I seek some clarifications? If

17 you're talking about these second-rate people, would they be SDS members

18 or not?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them were not SDS members at

20 the time. They would become members eventually. Some of them had been

21 SDS members from before the war. For others, I don't know their

22 membership, and most probably they themselves didn't know whose members

23 they were.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you gave the example of the committee that would

25 receive -- I understand the leadership in Banja Luka. Could you tell us,

Page 22202

1 just give us the names of the members on this committee and could you tell

2 us whether they were SDS members, yes or no?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In giving you an example, perhaps I

4 should use the example of Banja Luka and Krajina. In the case of Banja

5 Luka, there were always Mr. Radic, Mr. Kasagic, Dr. Vukic, Mrs. Hrvacanin

6 on several occasions. Therefore, there were always these same people.

7 And I don't think Professor Koljevic ever had the occasion to talk to

8 other people.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, which of those you mentioned were not SDS

10 members, which of them were SDS members?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Out of the ones that I mentioned

12 now, well, I believe they were members even before the war. Some of them

13 became members later, like some of the ministers in the government, who

14 became members as they assumed their duties, because, as they put it, it

15 was quite logical to do so.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

17 Yes, Judge Hanoteau was a question for you as well.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm terribly sorry, Madam, to ask

19 you to put your headphones on but I wanted to ask you a question, it's a

20 sort of a general question. Answering to a question of Mr. Stewart, put

21 to you by Mr. Stewart, you described to us the person that Mr. Krajisnik

22 is, described how he was when the visitors came to see him. You talked to

23 us about what he would say with regard to other members of other ethnic

24 communities. I wanted to ask you the following question: Did you ever

25 hear Mr. Krajisnik deny that things were happening? Did you ever hear him

Page 22203

1 protest against things that were happening or condemn things that were

2 happening around him, or to say something against the choices that people

3 had taken? Did you ever hear him express any regret with regard to what

4 was going on? Thank you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On several occasions,

6 Mr. Krajisnik was angry because of the various groups that toured the

7 areas and did evil things indeed. Whoever was in a position to inform

8 about this, for instance I myself, I don't know about others, if we had

9 coffee or as Mr. Krajisnik called it, our heroic strong coffee, I myself

10 had occasion to inform him about things that I learnt were happening.

11 Mr. Krajisnik was always angry about things that were being done to people

12 in the name of something. Furthermore, Mr. Krajisnik always insisted that

13 people be treated with respect, and I believe he illustrated that in the

14 case of my own family.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What would you tell him? Can you

16 tell us what is it that you would hear and you would tell him, for

17 instance? You said, "I myself had occasion to tell them about things that

18 I learnt were happening."

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for example, the instances

20 around Ilijas, where evidently there was a paramilitary formation in

21 existence, which, or rather the members of which were of frightful

22 appearance because they had frightening signs on them like skulls and

23 things like that which frightened the population. I was in a position to

24 talk to Mr. Krajisnik about this, and his reaction was anger, because

25 these people were under nobody's command. As Mr. Krajisnik would put it,

Page 22204

1 nobody has the right to do anything evil in the name of the Serbian

2 people, nor to frighten people.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Was there any room for manoeuvre?

4 Did he do something, do you know?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went out of the office and I

6 suppose he did, since he was giving instructions to his secretary, telling

7 her to get him on the phone with Mr. Karadzic.

8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have another question for you,

9 Madam. Given what you told us regarding this first part of your

10 activities when you were in charge of paper clippings and newspaper

11 clippings and, of course, I'm going back to the beginning of your

12 testimony of today, did you have a television set in your offices

13 anywhere?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] There wasn't a television set

16 either in Mr. Krajisnik's office?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, no, I don't think so.

18 I really can't remember. I'm trying to remember when it was that we

19 received PCs. I remember that I was still typing on a typewriter, and no,

20 I don't think there was one, no. Not in the office.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In Kikinda?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And after? At Jahorina?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there at Jahorina. We went

25 over to Mali Dom, and as I said, I was in this small office at Mali Dom.

Page 22205

1 Later on, we had television sets, but that was later. I don't even think

2 that we had them in that same year, because, as I said, we first received

3 PCs after we had had only typewriters, and perhaps only later, a TV set

4 was installed somewhere. Later.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You cannot tell us when?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Really, I don't know whether this

7 was towards the end of that year or in 1993. I really don't remember when

8 the TV was installed.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My last question has to deal with

10 one of your answers. You've told us that you've never heard talk about

11 detention centres, prisons, or of any such place while you were working

12 for Mr. Koljevic. Did you yourself know that these detention centres

13 existed? When did you find out about their existence personally?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, allow me to make a

15 correction. I said that no prisons, detention units, or any thing of that

16 sort was a subject of discussion with the four gentlemen who came to the

17 office and who had questions addressed to them. I never said that I never

18 heard or knew that they existed. I only said that with those four

19 gentlemen, there was no discussion about them. As for the detention

20 units, camps, collection centres, I heard of them, and in my testimony,

21 I've already mentioned that at the beginning of that autumn, in September,

22 I went to one of those places with the journalist whom I mentioned. Also,

23 during the summer of that year, stories about Prijedor reached us. And

24 then a visit was organised because international representatives asked for

25 that visit. I particularly remember the visit of a gentleman from abroad

Page 22206

1 who was either a sir or a lord. I'm not sure. And I remember when he

2 went there with the deputy health minister in order to inspect the area of

3 Prijedor. As for prisons and detention units, yes, they were mentioned

4 that summer because lists for exchanges arrived with the names of people

5 on those lists, and the person who was involved in that was Mr. Momcilo

6 Mandic. Sometimes I would be the one to receive those faxes, and as far

7 as the Croatian side is concerned, I believe that the counterpart's family

8 name was Plejic, Mr. Plejic. On behalf of the Croats or Herceg-Bosnia the

9 Croats there played an official role. However, he resided in Frankfurt,

10 and that's where he called from when it came to the exchanges of the

11 people on those lists. So already at that time, I did hear about

12 detention units, and I have just now described how I heard of those.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I'll ask one follow-up question there.

15 You said that there was no television set in Mr. Krajisnik's

16 office. We heard evidence about the presence of satellite television with

17 reception of, for example, CNN, in Pale, from someone who worked there

18 during 1992, periods of 1992. Are you aware of the presence of any

19 satellite television facility, whether it was in the office or next to the

20 office, of -- whether it would be Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, or do you

21 say, no, there was no television reception which was able to receive

22 international channels at all?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never heard of satellite

24 television before. There is the first time I hear any such thing. As for

25 television sets, people had them at their homes. It is possible that

Page 22207

1 there was a television set in that facility because this was a holiday

2 place. However, I did not see any television sets in any of the offices.

3 I did not have a television set in my office, for the short period of time

4 that I was involved in preparing press clippings.

5 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by "that facility"?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Kikinda building. It is

7 possible that there was a television set there, just an ordinary TV set.

8 But not in the office. This had been a holiday place before, and I'm sure

9 that they had had television sets or a television set, in the holiday

10 place. However, during the day, we did not watch TV at work. People had

11 television sets in their own private houses and they watched those

12 channels that could be received. When we moved to the Mali Dom building,

13 in the office that I occupied, there was no TV set. Later on -- but I

14 don't know whether it was in 1992 or in 1993, honestly, I can't remember,

15 we received TV sets. We received them in the Mali Dom building as well.

16 Now, as for the satellite dish or any satellite channels, believe me, at

17 the time, I could not follow any of them. I did not have an opportunity

18 to see, to watch any of them.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But -- I do understand that you do say I could

20 not follow any of them, I did not have an opportunity. But would you

21 exclude for the possibility that satellite television was received in,

22 well, let's say, government or related premises? That means government,

23 Assembly, officers working for the government or for the Assemblies -- for

24 the Assembly.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that I never saw a

Page 22208

1 satellite TV in the Kikinda building, ever. Never ever did I see it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you earlier told us that through press

3 clippings you would gather information of what was published. Sometimes

4 it was even taken by couriers to Pale so there seemed to have been an

5 interest knowing what was published about the situation. How do you

6 explain that where satellite television is -- let me say it, one of the

7 relatively simple technical means of finding out what is broadcast about

8 the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, why -- how could you explain that

9 no one ever thought, well, this is a way to get information just as we

10 tried to gather that from press clippings? It's far easier.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it took me a while, and

12 luckily enough, Mr. Krajisnik appreciated that, to explain that we needed

13 at least PCs for our work, and to explain why a scanner would be important

14 for our work. Even for that, one had to have means and ways to obtain

15 that equipment. I fully appreciate that things would have been much

16 easier with a satellite TV, but I did not have it. I did not have one.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I did not have access to it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you did not have but since

20 we heard evidence that CNN was watched in Pale, of course, I'm trying to

21 understand the one testimony and the other testimony, and also to see

22 whether there is a logical explanation for the difference in that

23 testimony and what you tell us at this moment. But you say, in Pale,

24 government facilities or related facilities, there was no satellite

25 television received?

Page 22209

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Kikinda building, I did not

2 see a satellite TV anywhere. Later on, when things went on, Mr. Karadzic

3 had TV in his office and he could watch CNN, BBC, ABC, and others, but in

4 the Kikinda building I never saw a satellite dish.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Any of the other buildings during 1992?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992, until the moment we moved

7 to Mali Dom, I really didn't see any anywhere. And once we moved to the

8 Mali building, Mali Dom building, in my office and the adjacent offices I

9 did not see a satellite dish oar a satellite TV. Later on, yes. As I've

10 already told you, later on I know that Dr. Karadzic had it in his office

11 and that he could follow various channels.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That was after 1992.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was after.


15 Mr. Stewart.

16 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Was there -- among the Serb community in 1992, what was their

18 general assessment, so far as you could tell, of the Bosnian Serb

19 leadership?

20 A. If you're referring to people in general and what they were

21 saying?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Quite a number of people, with all due respect to Mrs. Plavsic,

24 Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic, and Mr. Krajisnik, depending on the part of

25 the state or the part of the territory where they resided, although they

Page 22210

1 enjoyed respect, a majority of common people were angry that they could

2 not reach any of them, to tell them what was really going on, or to tell

3 them something about those people that represented them, and their

4 respective municipalities.

5 Q. What was the relationship so far as you could see in 1992 between

6 Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic?

7 A. As far as I could hear their conversations, there was a lot of

8 tension in their relationship, judging by the raised voices, especially

9 the raised voice of Dr. Karadzic.

10 Q. Did you acquire any knowledge yourself of what had led to tension

11 and raised voices?

12 A. Well, in addition to the way they treated the procedure respective

13 to the humanitarian aid convoys, journalists, when I say journalists, very

14 often the arrival of journalists had to be provided with security. I know

15 that those were some of the problems, but I was not aware of any details.

16 I know there was also a problem regarding the so-called municipal armies,

17 like the one that had been formed in Vogosca at the very beginning. I

18 suppose that General Mladic's opinion on all those differed from the

19 opinion of Dr. Karadzic.

20 Q. But you don't know?

21 A. Only superficially from what I heard in 1992. Later on, I

22 attended a greater number of those meetings and discussions, but at that

23 time, the time in question, those issues were only touched upon and that's

24 why I don't know any details. In any case, that was one of the issues of

25 their discussions.

Page 22211

1 Q. Are you able to say whether General Mladic and Dr. Karadzic in

2 1992 saw eye-to-eye on the organisation of the VRS?

3 A. No. I never attended any of those discussions and I wouldn't

4 know.

5 Q. In the dealings between Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic, would you

6 be able to say whether either of them was the dominant personality?

7 A. Both in 1992 and later on, they had very pronounced egos. It is a

8 very big question whether any of them would have prevailed in that

9 relationship.

10 Q. To return to a topic we left yesterday but, Your Honours,

11 briefly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Stewart. I don't know

13 how much time you would still need. If you say "I need just for the

14 topic," I don't know how many topics there are still to come but --

15 MR. STEWART: Yes. As best I can do, Your Honour. I think I'm

16 looking at something like between 20 and 30 minutes or something like

17 that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's certainly too much for before the break.

19 The witness was scheduled for six hours in chief.

20 MR. STEWART: Estimated, Your Honour, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Estimated, yes.

22 MR. STEWART: I don't know how long I've had because Your Honour

23 has the computer information that I don't have.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking Mr. Registrar to give me the update of

25 where we are.

Page 22212

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is still -- you're at 4 hours, 46

3 minutes, I do understand.

4 We will adjourn until 6.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mrs. Cenic, I was asking you yesterday, but we dropped the topic

10 for the time being, about your visit with the Canadian journalist to

11 Trnopolje. On your visit there, did you see anything which indicated to

12 you that there was or had been improper treatment of anybody detained

13 there?

14 A. I found it strange to see so many people on this one spot, with

15 many of their belongings scattered about. What I also found odd were

16 these bicycles that one could see along the approach road. In general,

17 the atmosphere was far from pleasant. Do you want me to describe it in

18 any detail.

19 Q. Let me ask questions, then, Mrs. Cenic of the first of all, was it

20 clear to you that people were being detained there against their will, at

21 the time that you were there?

22 A. No, it wasn't, because we asked the man wearing this incomplete

23 uniform what this was all about. He told us that it was a collection

24 centre, something of the sort. People were getting in and going out.

25 These were women, men, wearing civilian clothes. I also found it odd to

Page 22213

1 see them arrive on bicycles. I wasn't under the impression that they were

2 prisoners, but I didn't find it normal to see them staying there either.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the same question as the last time you

4 raised the issue. Are you challenging the adjudicated facts which, of

5 course, you're entitled to do but which would take more than it hear the

6 testimony of someone who spent a -- perhaps couple of hours on one day.

7 How do we have to understand this line of questioning?

8 MR. STEWART: In fact Your Honour puts your finger on it. If I

9 were at any point to challenge the adjudicated facts I would -- I would

10 need to do it on something other than the evidence which I'm proposing to

11 adduce on this witness. I hope that --


13 MR. STEWART: -- Your Honour's point.


15 Q. Did it -- did it appear to you who was running this camp, well,

16 who was in charge of the camp?

17 A. No. It is because as I said, the uniform didn't have any

18 insignia, and it wasn't clear to me who had control over it all.

19 Evidently there was some sort of control there but I don't know who was

20 officially in control.

21 Q. Did you -- did you see or hear anything on that visit which you

22 then felt it was necessary to report back to anybody when you returned to

23 Pale?

24 A. On my return to Pale, I mentioned this, but not in any sort of

25 report, because, as I said, I wasn't required to submit any sort of

Page 22214

1 reports. Still, in this -- or, rather, I talked to my colleagues about

2 this particular leg of my journey, as I did in fact about all the other

3 legs of this journey.

4 Q. And which of your colleagues did you talk to?

5 A. I talked to Ms. Milijana, Ms. Milena, and the people who were

6 working there.

7 Q. Was anything of what you then discussed with your colleagues a

8 matter which caused you concern to the point where you felt that somebody

9 in higher authority should know?

10 A. I didn't submit any sort of report. I only had these

11 conversations, because I had experienced various things during this

12 journey. Perhaps it was only at this point that I realised that the

13 situation was more serious than I had expected it to be or that I had

14 thought it to be.

15 Q. What -- can you say what specifically was more serious than you

16 had expected?

17 A. Everything that I observed on this journey was more serious than I

18 could have expected. I can illustrate this by way of several things, if

19 you allow me.

20 Q. Well, please do.

21 A. Firstly, this place called Obodni Kanal, where there was fighting

22 at the time, there were dead bodies everywhere to be seen, and what I was

23 particularly shocked by were these NATO packages that I was able to see in

24 the possession of members of the Croat army. They had very well-fortified

25 bunkers, and they left behind packages of food which was something that we

Page 22215

1 didn't have. That was the first time that I saw the uniform of the army

2 of the Republic of Croatia. Next, Bosanski Brod. Together with the

3 Serbian army we had entered Bosanski Brod and saw columns of people.

4 Trnopolje, where we asked to be explained who the persons there were, and

5 what that was all about. We were told that this was a collection centre

6 and that the people were mostly Bosniaks who were supposed to be

7 transferred somewhere, wherever they wanted to go, abroad, and that when

8 we saw them leave, it was because they were returning to their homes to

9 collect some other belongings that they had left behind. To put it

10 mildly, I found it very hard to take that -- all of that in.

11 Then, as we went to Vogosca and Ilijas, in Ilijas, Mr. Kent,

12 perhaps even naively, wanted to see what this demarcation line was like,

13 that's to say the point of contact between the Bosniak and Serbian armies.

14 We were taken, escorted to Cekrcici. However, the vehicle that was driven

15 by a man called Damir, I don't think he's alive any more, that was driving

16 ahead of us, was shot from a sniper. The driver was wounded, but thanks

17 to the fact that he managed to collect his wits, we managed to run away.

18 So there are many things which made it clear, at least to me, that the

19 people were far from understanding the seriousness of the situation.

20 Q. Were you -- before you went on the trip, were you discouraged in

21 any way by anybody in Pale from going to wherever you wanted to go,

22 wherever Mr. Kent wanted to go, or to follow up anything that Mr. Kent

23 might be interested in?

24 A. There weren't any restrictions whatsoever or any instructions of

25 any sort, because Mr. Kent simply wanted to see as much as he could, as he

Page 22216

1 himself put it, and we travelled accordingly, according to his wishes.

2 Q. When you returned to Pale, were you at any point discouraged by

3 anyone from discussing or passing on to anybody anything which you had

4 seen or heard on your trip with Mr. Kent?

5 A. No. Whatever we visited was filmed by Mr. Kent, including

6 Derventa, which looked like a ghost town.

7 Q. Mrs. Cenic, do you recall that during the period that you were in

8 Pale and particularly the period that you describe where you were working

9 at Kikinda and then at Mali Dom, that there was, as part of the Republika

10 Srpska structure, a government, a cabinet?

11 A. Yes. There was the government, of course.

12 Q. And we know, nobody is going to get excited, if I put it to you

13 that the Prime Minister was Mr. Branko Djeric. Can you say, from your

14 knowledge, whether there were any members of that government, of that

15 cabinet, who were effectively the more powerful, influential figures?

16 A. Of course, those who had more power and were more prominent were

17 Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Mandic.

18 Q. We find, and I won't trouble everybody, including you, Mrs. Cenic,

19 to go to the particular document, but we do find quite frequently, in

20 minutes of government sessions at that time, a reference to somebody

21 expressing the view that the government was receiving insufficient

22 information. Are you able to comment usefully yourself, from what you

23 knew at the time, as to whether that was a legitimate complaint?

24 MR. HARMON: I'm going to object, Your Honour. The question is

25 too vague.

Page 22217

1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first ask whether the witness has any

3 information about what type of -- whether the government received

4 information, what she knows about it. Could you tell us whether you have

5 any knowledge, any personal knowledge, of -- or even indirect knowledge,

6 of how the government was receiving information?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know in what ways the

8 government was receiving information, because I did not take part in the

9 work of the government. Indirectly, I know that most information about

10 matters in general were in possession of Mr. Mandic and Mr. Stanisic.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Have you any knowledge on whether they shared that

12 information with other members of the government?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that with any

14 certainty. I didn't take part in the work of the government.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


17 Q. Have you -- have you any knowledge of -- about the flow of

18 information between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Stanisic, on the one hand, and

19 Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Professor Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, on the

20 other hand?

21 A. As far as Mr. Krajisnik is concerned, I don't know, because I

22 didn't see them in that period of time, and I'm talking about the period I

23 spent occupying and sharing one office with his secretary. I didn't see

24 those gentlemen with Mr. Krajisnik. I would see Mr. Mandic when he came

25 to pick up the faxes which had to do with detainees and exchanges. As far

Page 22218

1 as Professor Koljevic is concerned, he wasn't on good terms either with

2 Mr. Mandic or Mr. Stanisic. That's particularly true with regard to

3 Mr. Mandic.

4 Q. Are you able to say what was the reason Professor Koljevic was not

5 on good terms with Mr. Mandic?

6 A. A lot of it was of personal nature. However, Professor Koljevic

7 always accused them of exceeding their authority, of wanting to wield more

8 influence than what was proper. As far as Mr. Mandic is concerned, he

9 regarded Mr. Koljevic with disdain, because Mr. Koljevic was a completely

10 different personality to them. He was just a professor, no more.

11 Q. Did -- were there -- were there any ways in which

12 Professor Koljevic, specific ways in which Professor Koljevic regarded

13 Mr. Mandic as not properly carrying out his functions as a member of the

14 government?

15 A. I did not take part in the work of the government, and I don't

16 know that. Professor Koljevic attended government meetings on occasion.

17 What he talked about on those occasions, I don't know.

18 Q. Did Professor Koljevic say anything to you about the relations

19 between the members of the government and the group that I have mentioned

20 just now, Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and, well, himself,

21 Professor Koljevic, and Mrs. Plavsic?

22 A. We, Professor Koljevic and I, talked about either Mr. Mandic or

23 Mr. Stanisic only when we started working together. Normally this was an

24 informal conversation between the two of us where he would express his

25 opinion of them. To put it simply, there were many things that he thought

Page 22219

1 were not good.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I did not get the impression from the

3 first lines of the answer that the witness was answering your question.

4 You were asked whether Professor Koljevic said anything about

5 relations between the members of the government and the group just

6 mentioned.

7 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, I'm grateful, Your Honour, Your Honour is

8 right.

9 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness starts answering a different question,

10 then please take the witness again back to your question so that we get an

11 answer. Please proceed.


13 Q. I beg your pardon. Sorry, I was thinking that had been

14 communicated to the witness. Mrs. Cenic, I had asked you whether

15 Professor Koljevic had said anything to you about relations between, on

16 the one hand, the members of the government, and on the other hand, that

17 group that I mentioned, Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic himself, and

18 Plavsic. What is the answer to that specific question, please?

19 A. Are you asking me about the government as a whole or are you

20 asking me only about the people we mentioned, that's to say Mandic and

21 Stanisic?

22 Q. I had quite deliberately said members of the government intending

23 to embrace all the members of the government in that question, Mrs. Cenic,

24 for clarification.

25 A. When it comes to the government as a whole, we didn't discuss

Page 22220

1 that. And I don't recall ever hearing Professor Koljevic discuss the

2 government as a whole. His criticism was, as I said, leveled against

3 these two persons, Mandic and Stanisic.

4 Q. Well, having put the question to you in that more general form and

5 you've answered it, then did Professor Koljevic say anything to you about

6 relations between on the one hand, Mr. Mandic, and on the other hand, that

7 group, Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic, Plavsic?

8 A. This is the only answer I can give you to this question: As far

9 as Mrs. Plavsic and Professor Koljevic are concerned, there was animosity

10 between them, on the one hand, and Mr. Mandic, on the other.

11 As far as Professor Koljevic's comments concerning Mr. Mandic and

12 his relations with Karadzic are concerned, he thought that Mandic had far

13 too much influence.

14 As far as Mr. Krajisnik is concerned, to tell you the truth, we

15 never discussed him or at least I don't remember. We never discussed the

16 relations between Krajisnik, Stanisic, and Mandic, or between him and any

17 other members of the government.

18 Q. Did Professor Koljevic say anything to you about the extent to

19 which Mr. Mandic and Mr. Stanisic were keeping Mr. Karadzic informed of

20 their activities?

21 A. No, I don't remember.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to you,

23 Mrs. Cenic.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 22221

1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I'd like to come back to

2 what you've said earlier, after your trip with this journalist, Mr. Kent.

3 You stated [In English] "Which made it clear, at least to me, that the

4 people were far from understanding the seriousness of the situation."

5 [Interpretation] What did you mean by "[In English] "far from

6 understanding"? [Interpretation] Could you please clarify that point,

7 please? What do you mean by "the people"? Please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was referring to my work

9 colleagues at the time, to the people I spent most of the time with,

10 because they were at Pale in the offices there. They did not move about

11 much, and were not in touch with reality, with what was actually

12 happening.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And as for your employers, if I

14 may use that phrase, as for your employers?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that they didn't know either

16 what the situation was like.

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My question is the following:

18 Did you react to all of this? Did you talk about it, not only to your

19 colleagues at work, but did you also mention this to those you were

20 working for?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whoever wanted to hear what I had to

22 say those days, I did. I did mention things, but I don't know whether I

23 could have changed anything in the presence of the Croatian army. That

24 is, the army of the Republic of Croatia. But whoever really listened or

25 wanted to hear me out, whoever I sat down with, I would talk about my

Page 22222

1 experiences from that trip. This was one of my confrontations with the

2 reality and with what was happening to all of us.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] When I was listening to you, I

4 was very impressed by the words you used. You stated, among other things,

5 about Derventa, that it was like a ghost town, and then you had that

6 experience that was very difficult for you when you visited that detention

7 centre. You stated that the atmosphere was very strange there. And

8 through the words you used, I understood what you meant. So when you

9 returned to Pale, didn't you go and see Mr. Krajisnik in order to tell

10 him, "Things are going on, terrible things are going on"?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that I went to him just

12 for that purpose, that I talked to him about this particular thing.

13 However, we did talk then and later on in informal conversations what was

14 going on. Secondly, Mr. Krajisnik would often shake his head when I told

15 him where I went and how I went there, and he was afraid for my safety.

16 And as far as I'm concerned, it finally penetrated that the situation is

17 even more terrible than we thought, and I tried to convey that message to

18 everybody, and I also tried to tell them that this was not something that

19 would be over, just like that, overnight, that nobody will say, "Okay,

20 enough is enough, and let's put a stop to that." I still remember the

21 images from that trip. They are very fresh in my memory, as something

22 that was a turning point in my way of thinking also.

23 I can't say with any degree of certainty whether my story had an

24 impact on anybody, and what was done after that, what was the impression

25 that I left with my story. Those were just the images that I conveyed. I

Page 22223

1 don't know what the impression on people was and what was the result of my

2 telling the story to them.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart?

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, may I just mention, I hope it's

6 not inappropriate, I've been informed that Mrs. Cenic is concerned about

7 the length of time her evidence will take, but, Your Honour, I can offer,

8 I hope, through the Trial Chamber this degree of reassurance that

9 Mrs. Cenic's concern appears to be now that she might not finish her

10 evidence before the weekend but, Your Honour, I'm so nearly finished that

11 if we're having a normal day tomorrow, I hope, Your Honour, there doesn't

12 seem to be any real chance.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Unfortunately, Mr. Stewart, we will not have a normal

14 day tomorrow because we will have a late start for urgent Tribunal

15 matters. It was on my list to inform you about that, that we would start

16 45 minutes later tomorrow. I've got no idea, Mr. Harmon, do you have an

17 impression on whether three hours -- not too many questions by the Judges,

18 would --

19 MR. HARMON: I can't calculate now, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Can't calculate?

21 MR. HARMON: No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have to discuss that. Perhaps -- how many

23 more minutes would you need, Mr. Stewart.

24 MR. STEWART: I can finish very quickly if Mr. Harmon operates

25 within the guidelines we should finish tomorrow any way by my calculation,

Page 22224

1 Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: 60 per cent of what is it now, four and a half hours?

3 MR. STEWART: I won't be more than that.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please, let's finish first. I'll do the calculations

5 meanwhile.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got just two documents with which

7 the Court is very familiar, to put to the witness, and Your Honour would

8 see I hope even if we haven't got a plethora of further photocopies of

9 these documents it will be dealt with quickly. The first is P47 which I

10 have in both the English and the Serbian. My copy can go on the ELMO, if

11 necessary, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness can look at it, I wouldn't say we know

13 it by heart by now, but it's not far.

14 MR. STEWART: Quite -- here, Your Honour can have my copy by all

15 means.

16 Q. I just want you to take just a moment to familiarise yourself with

17 that sufficiently, Mrs. Cenic, to say whether you recall seeing that

18 document in 1992 or 1993. It's the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska,

19 and it sets out something called, in English, six strategic objectives.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you hear of the six strategic objectives when you were in Pale

22 in 1992?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Right. That's that one, Your Honour. The other one I think an

25 equally familiar document, although perhaps not known by heart is a

Page 22225

1 document we have been using I think copy number 93, it's P529, it's also

2 D10. It's something else in Mr. Trainer's exhibits as well, Your Honour.

3 It's in loads of different places, but if I say we have been using number

4 93, Your Honour will know immediately what document it is -- well,

5 Your Honours will know what I'm talking about?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, talking about the A and B variant document.

7 MR. STEWART: Exactly, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And the previous one was P47, yes.


10 Q. This document, I'd like you to look at the Serbian version of

11 this. There is an English translation but please look at the Serbian

12 version. Again, just take enough time to familiarise yourself to answer

13 the question, first of all, have you ever seen this document before?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. Thank you.

16 Did you hear about variants A and B, or any similar name, in 1991

17 or 1992?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Cenic.

20 My last question, I think it will be. May I just put this to you,

21 then, Mrs. Cenic? Your -- is it correct your father is a Serb, your

22 mother is a Croat, and the -- one of the grandmothers or the grandfather

23 and grandmother on one side of your daughter are a Muslim and a Croat?

24 A. Yes. My mother is a Croat. My father is a Serb. My uncle is a

25 Hungarian. My mother-in-law comes from Boka. She is a Catholic, Croatian

Page 22226

1 Catholic. People who reside in Boka are Catholics, Croats, and my

2 father-in-law, Kemal Koraljic is a Muslim, Bosniak, although during his

3 lifetime he declared himself as a Yugoslav.

4 MR. STEWART: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Perhaps the best way of

6 proceeding is that we first discuss what will happen.

7 Mr. Harmon, you said you were not yet in a position to calculate.

8 I was. That is, the Defence took a little bit over five hours so three

9 hours would be the 60 per cent. Even if we have a late start tomorrow,

10 there should be three hours. If we have one break and if we would have a

11 little bit long sessions, that is if we would start at 3.00, then continue

12 until, well, let's say, 20 minutes to 5, and then have a break of half an

13 hour, of course, with the support of the interpreters, so you're invited,

14 I do not know whether there would be any additional questions, we would

15 then not have time for re-examination so therefore you are invited while

16 you went above the 60 per cent now and then, in one case even

17 considerably, that's perhaps now to stay well within the 60 per cent, to

18 see whether we can finish with the witness.

19 Ms. Cenic, at the same time I have to inform you that although

20 parties are now and then limited in the time they do not get all the time

21 they would like to have, that it always also depends on how matters

22 develop and whether we will be able to finish. We'll try to do our utmost

23 best, Mr. Harmon and the Chamber and Mr. Stewart, but I can't promise you

24 that we would finish tomorrow. At the same time, I do understand, because

25 although the message was not addressed to the Chamber, Mr. Stewart, I got

Page 22227

1 a courtesy copy of the information about the concerns of Mrs. Cenic, that

2 if it would be necessary, that you would be willing to return, but, of

3 course, we would like very much to save you the experience to have to go

4 back and then to come back to the Tribunal again.

5 Keeping this in mind, we would like to see you back tomorrow at

6 3.00 in this same courtroom. And I again instruct you not to speak with

7 anyone about the testimony already given and still to be given. Would you

8 please follow Madam Usher?

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 [The witness stands down]

11 MR. STEWART: May I observe, and I don't think it causes any

12 problem at all to say this as the witness is leaving.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what you are going to say.

14 MR. STEWART: I'm saying I don't think it will, Your Honour.

15 Your Honour, on behalf of the Defence I would submit unhappiness at the

16 concept of re-examination being ruled out in advance on the basis there is

17 no time with cross-examination taking place? Did I misunderstand what

18 Your Honour was saying?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think you misunderstand me. Because I said 60

20 per cent would be three hours, my calculation would be that we would have

21 close to three and a half hours available, two long sessions, and I then

22 invited, because I had exactly the same thoughts as you had, I invited

23 Mr. Stewart to well remain within the three hours, I don't know.

24 MR. STEWART: I see what Your Honour is saying. On a quick

25 reading I thought Your Honour was saying something different.

Page 22228

1 JUDGE ORIE: Especially because then we would have just time --

2 for re-examination. Also added to that if need be we would ask the

3 witness to come back.

4 Then I was informed that you wanted to raise a matter about

5 witnesses, and I have one matter on my agenda as well. If you could do

6 that within two or three minutes I would need --

7 MR. STEWART: I can, Your Honour. It was simply to report the

8 position to Your Honour. We now understand -- we have the next witness

9 arriving this evening, God willing. He's on his way, we think. That's

10 Mr. Kuzmanovic, no protective measures, clearly. He is arriving this

11 evening. We are informed, I've been informed today, that Mr. Bjelica will

12 be arriving here in The Hague on Monday. Your Honour, we are also

13 bringing the next witness, whose name I won't then give Your Honour, we

14 are bringing the next witness -- bringing her on Monday as well,

15 Your Honour. Or possibly, I remember, Tuesday but whatever it is,

16 Your Honour, we are bringing her in time for her to follow on Mr. Bjelica.

17 It appeared to us that that was the mote suitable order of batting now, as

18 far as witnesses can concerned.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for updating us. I would like to inform

20 the parties that on the 11th, that is not this Tuesday but next Tuesday

21 that is the last day we would sit before we had a couple of days for

22 further preparation of Mr. Krajisnik's evidence, that the Chamber had to

23 decide that we'll sit in the afternoon rather than in the morning, as was

24 scheduled, for urgent reasons. As far as the 20th of April is concerned,

25 that would be the day when Mr. Krajisnik would start his testimony, the

Page 22229

1 Chamber also had to decide that we would start in the afternoon and not in

2 the morning which, of course, gives a couple of hours extra but so

3 therefore these two days we will sit in the afternoon, not in the morning.

4 Yes.

5 Then finally, I would like to address you, Mr. Krajisnik, more

6 directly because the Chamber wants to address various matters you have

7 raised in Court on the 17th of March. I'm referring to transcript pages

8 21567 to 21571.

9 One matter you raised, Mr. Krajisnik, is that the -- that many

10 witnesses the Defence wished to call were too frightened to testify before

11 this Tribunal. You referred to rumours that witnesses who have come to

12 testify as Defence witnesses were punished or mistreated. The Chamber is

13 concerned about these assertions. For the Chamber to be able to look into

14 such incidents, however, the Defence would need to submit more specific

15 information and is invited to do so.

16 You also raised, Mr. Krajisnik, the issue of expert evidence.

17 There has already been dealt with many times. The Chamber would only

18 observe that by the 13th of January, 2006, the Defence no longer proposed

19 calling political and history experts, focusing only on military and media

20 experts. The Defence did not include any experts in its list of witnesses

21 filed on the 7th of February and the 14th of February, and in its 14th of

22 February response to the Chamber's priorisation - I'm now pronouncing it

23 incorrectly - prioritisation order. Furthermore, as at the housekeeping

24 session on the 23rd of February the Defence indicated at transcript pages

25 20853 to 854 that it had taken the decision not to call any expert

Page 22230

1 witnesses.

2 Considering what it takes for a party to prepare for an expert

3 report and related testimony, the Chamber finds that it is not in the

4 interests of justice at this stage to significantly prolong the

5 proceedings so as to allow the Defence the time necessary to identify

6 experts and present their reports.

7 The Chamber notes that on the 28th of March, the Defence

8 responding to a remark by the Chamber, asked whether expert evidence on

9 the Defence side in relation to population movements would be of

10 assistance. As we learned from expert witness Tabeau, there are many

11 methodological issues with respect to statistical and demo a graphic

12 studies. A great deal of work is required in order to obtain complete and

13 reliable information. While such expert evidence is not indispensable to

14 this case, the Chamber would consider a submission by the Defence to

15 tender such evidence on the condition that the work has to a large extent

16 already been completed and can easily be produced.

17 The Chamber also understands that you have concerns regarding the

18 amount of time available to the Defence, both for court preparation and

19 actual time in court. With respect to preparation time, this Chamber has

20 granted numerous extensions and recesses which we have documented in a

21 series of decisions in order for the Defence to prepare for witnesses.

22 For example, the Chamber granted the Defence an extra month to present its

23 case as provided on the 27th of February. It has been left to the

24 discretion of the Defence to allocate this time as it sees fit. So while

25 you say that the main problem facing the Defence is time, we believe that

Page 22231

1 the total time allotted for the conduct of your defence is adequate.

2 As for the example you raised, Mr. Krajisnik, of witness Radojko.

3 It is rather unusual the Prosecution cross-examined the witness one and a

4 half times of the exam in chief. That is the example I just referred to,

5 Mr. Harmon. Which is much longer than the 60 per cent guideline

6 ordinarily followed in this case. In total, however, the Prosecution's

7 cross-examination of Defence witnesses has lasted for approximately 64 per

8 cent of time taken for examination-in-chief.

9 In comparison, the Defence has's cross-examination of pros

10 witnesses lasted for approximately 61 per cent of time taken for

11 examination-in-chief.

12 This difference is not negligible. However the Chamber suggests

13 that cross-examination would take less time if, among other things, the

14 Prosecution were provided with adequate witness information, well in

15 advance of the schedule testimony.

16 Given the limited amount of time remaining in the Defence case,

17 the Chamber reiterates to the Defence the importance of providing

18 meaningful notice of witness testimony. The Chamber will continue to

19 regulate cross-examination so as to keep the Prosecution as close as

20 possible to the 60 per cent guideline followed in this case. And that,

21 Mr. Harmon, is valid for tomorrow.

22 Also relating to witness Radojko, the Chamber is willing to

23 consider favourably a motion for further re-examination due to the

24 exceptional circumstances relating to this witness and the Chamber would

25 request that such a motion specify the topics and the amount of time

Page 22232

1 required for re-examination.

2 On the 23rd of March, the Chamber granted the Defence several

3 additional days in April which could be used for witness Bjelica and

4 stated that it would provide further details in this response. We are

5 well aware that we, the Judges, have spent during the Defence phase of the

6 case, a greater proportion of testimony time on putting questions to

7 witnesses, specifically. Whereas during the Prosecution phase our

8 questions accounted for 8 per cent of the testimony time, during the

9 Defence phase, to date, our questions have accounted for 19 per cent of

10 that time. Performing the calculations you'll see that we have consumed

11 an additional 15 hours of testimony time during the Defence phase so far,

12 over and above what we would have consumed had we limited ourselves to the

13 8 per cent we used in the first phase.

14 Of course, these proportions are not expected to remain exactly

15 the same from one phase of the case to the other. Nevertheless we

16 considered the difference in this instance large enough to justify the

17 grant of three additional days to the Defence, namely the days of the 6th,

18 the 7th and the 10th of April, with allowance made for testimony to spill

19 over into a fourth additional day, namely the 11th, now reserved for

20 outstanding procedural matters.

21 I add to that at this moment that where I announced only seven

22 minutes ago that we would sit in the afternoon of the 11th for urgent

23 reasons that there seem to be practical problems in arranging for moving

24 to the afternoon. We'll see how we will resolve that problem. One of the

25 options being not having a complete morning session.

Page 22233

1 The Defence will still have four court free days, namely the 12th,

2 the 13th, the 18th and the 19th, to prepare for your testimony,

3 Mr. Krajisnik, scheduled to begin on the 20th of April, as I said before,

4 in the afternoon.

5 Mr. Krajisnik, you also emphasised the importance of bringing in

6 other witnesses in addition to giving evidence yourself. As we mentioned

7 above, the Chamber has provided you adequate time to present your defence.

8 The defence phase of the case must come to a close on the 6th of June.

9 The Defence has identified the persons scheduled as the remaining

10 witnesses in your case. We are also aware, of course, that we have

11 allowed you to make changes to your expected schedule after seeking the

12 Chamber's guidance.

13 This Chamber is obliged to make findings based on the evidence

14 heard, and it would be better able to do so with access to more

15 information from persons who appear based on the evidence presented, to

16 have had close contact with you during the relevant period or at least

17 whether it would be close contact or at least people not far from you, to

18 say it in general terms.

19 Ignoring this information risks drawing wrong conclusions for or

20 against either of the parties. As matters stand at this moment, this

21 Chamber will decide at the close of the Defence case, whether to hear

22 evidence from the additional witnesses we have in mind. Due to the

23 logistical steps required in order to bring witnesses to the Tribunal, the

24 Chamber will, however, start making arrangements already now for their

25 possible testimony. Once the Chamber has finalised the procedure for the

Page 22234

1 hearing of evidence from potential witnesses, we will identify these

2 witnesses along with the procedure to enable the parties to conduct their

3 own preparations. The Chamber will hear the parties' observations on the

4 proposed procedure at the appropriate time.

5 Lastly, Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber has not overlooked your remarks

6 about your health and your living situation. You started with those

7 observations. I will address them now at the end of this statement. As

8 you may know, immediately following your statement in court, the Chamber

9 had an OLAD representative contact Mr. McFadden of the detention unit and

10 inform him of your remarks drawing attention to the change in your health

11 condition. The Chamber has not been made aware of any further change in

12 your health. We hope that your condition has improved. We trust that you

13 will inform us if that is not the case.

14 This concludes the statement on your remarks made on the 17th of

15 March.

16 Mr. Krajisnik, I see you raise your hand. We have limited time

17 but if you would like to briefly say something, I would allow you to so

18 with the permission of the interpreters.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll be brief. I would kindly ask

20 you to allow for a report to reach you on the movement of population.

21 This can be done really very quickly. Secondly, thank you very much for

22 your kind words. As I said at the beginning of this trial, when I asked

23 for a lawyer, I was looking for a Dutchman and I found him here as a

24 judge. You explain things so well that I cannot say anything but that I

25 admire you for that.

Page 22235

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, thank you for this compliment. It's

2 good to hear that at least you appreciate the efforts we are making to do

3 our job as good as we can.

4 As far as a report on the movement of population is concerned,

5 Mr. Stewart, I again draw your attention to the difficulties, the

6 methodological difficulties we also see already arising from the report of

7 Ewa Tabeau. So therefore -- but if you can produce it, as I said, if it

8 could be quickly produced, then we -- and if it's reliable data, if it's

9 coping well with the materialogical problems involved then the claim would

10 like to receive that as soon as possible. Mr. Krajisnik seems to be

11 confident that it could be produced on short notice. I take it you'll

12 discuss it with him and see whether you could present it to the Chamber.

13 MR. STEWART: We will be discussing it, Your Honour, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. Then we will adjourn, and

15 I would like to again to thank the interpreters and the technicians. I

16 know that I have got a bad reputation for now for their patience.

17 We will adjourn to tomorrow afternoon at 3.00.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.11 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of March

20 2006, at 3.00 p.m.