1 Tuesday, 25 April 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Before we start the testimony of you, Mr. Krajisnik, there are a
11 couple of procedural matters which, as I understood, the Defence
12 preferably would deal with prior to starting the examination of
13 Mr. Krajisnik as a witness.
14 Mr. Krajisnik, I take it that you are informed, although most
15 likely not in much detail, about a decision the Chamber has delivered
16 yesterday. There is one part which is of primary importance to you
17 personally, Mr. Krajisnik, that is the ruling of the Chamber on the matter
18 of contact between counsel and you then being a witness during your
19 testimony. And since you have not taken the oath yet and if there is any
20 need to briefly discuss the matter with counsel, we should rather give you
21 an opportunity now before having asked you to make the solemn declaration.
22 Communication is, as always with witnesses, communication is prohibited.
23 You should not speak with anyone with respect to the testimony you have
24 given then or you're about to give. And for that reason, your two
25 privileged communication telephone lines will be interrupted from the 25th
1 of April, that's today, until the end of your testimony.
2 But of course there could be an urgent reason that you would need
3 to contact counsel during the course of your testimony, so the Chamber can
4 then make an exception. But of course, you cannot address counsel to
5 apply for such an exception. Under the circumstances, if you wish to
6 initiate contact with counsel during your testimony, Mr. Krajisnik, you
7 should write a brief note addressed to the Chamber directly stating the
8 reasons for your wish to contact counsel. You can give that note to a
9 security officer, that -- whether you are in the Detention Unit or here at
10 the Tribunal. So that could be a security officer present in court.
11 These brief notes -- oh, there seems to be a problem with the translation.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a -- well, now we have many -- if
14 you would allow me to finish just this portion, then we'll briefly see how
15 we can resolve the technical problems.
16 So you are then supposed to write a brief note, give it to a
17 security officer, then it will be sent for immediate translation so that
18 the Chamber is informed right away on the content of that note.
19 Therefore, you are also invited to keep it as brief as possible because
20 the longer it is, the longer the translation will take. The original note
21 and the translation will be provided to us. The Chamber will then inform
22 the parties that the Chamber has received a request for communication,
23 although not revealing the content of this note. And then we will decide
24 on whether you will be allowed to communicate with the Defence team or
25 members of the Defence team, and we'll issue instructions concerning the
2 That's, therefore, Mr. Krajisnik, will be the procedure if you
3 need to be in touch with counsel.
4 Before I now continue, I'd like to see whether we can resolve the
5 technical problems. The French channel has some unpleasant -- yes,
6 there's quite some rumble on the French channel. And then Judge Canivell
7 has no -- has on his left screen no image.
8 The matter has been resolved by a -- not by a technician. The
9 rumble on the French channel is still there. It could be just one
10 headphone. If some attention could be paid to it that would be
11 appreciated. I'll just look at whether on my French channel it's -- must
12 be -- it's -- I have no problem on the French channel, so it must be --
14 All the technical matters having been resolved, I have a short
15 list of procedural matters. The parties have received a copy of my, I
16 would say, agenda, five items on it, procedural matters.
17 Before we start with that, is there any other matter to be added
18 to this short agenda? I see Mr. Harmon nodding no.
19 MR. STEWART: Not on that particular agenda.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any other matter which you would like to prefer to
23 deal with first?
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I then deal before one moves on to
25 what I might call those housekeeping procedural-type matters in that list.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. STEWART: May I make a couple of submissions, Your Honour.
3 First of all, in relation to the order generally which we received
4 yesterday evening, we can see a number of points which will concern
5 Mr. Krajisnik which it is only sensible to have properly discussed between
6 him and his counsel before he starts his evidence. It's -- I don't know
7 exactly how long it would take in the nature of things, one doesn't know,
8 Your Honour. But it's bound to be more than just a very few minutes,
9 that's -- based on very long experience of discussions between counsel and
10 Mr. Krajisnik, that's bound to be the position, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that most of the issues, since they are --
12 well, I would say there are limited changes to the previous two after
13 that, you have anticipated a kind of decision going approximately in this
15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it's a mixture. We anticipated
16 some things, some things we didn't, and so on.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. STEWART: Some things we would have liked differently, so the
19 usual mixture.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But you would need some time?
21 MR. STEWART: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You say more than a few minutes?
23 MR. STEWART: It will be inevitably, Your Honour. We do -- after
24 all, we do --
25 JUDGE ORIE: 20 minutes?
1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, certainly it can't be
2 significantly less than that, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
4 MR. STEWART: I'm not asking for hours, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, on one particular aspect, and this is
7 the question of communication, just perhaps useful to make it clear so
8 that Mr. Krajisnik can hear this as well straight away. We had
9 anticipated this, but we'd anticipated wrongly as it happens.
10 We had discussed and specifically indicated to Mr. Krajisnik
11 yesterday how we thought he would communicate a need to talk to us. And
12 we had suggested -- after all, we had to answer the question from our own
13 common sense and anticipation. Your Honour, we had suggested that he
14 would simply say in open court in everybody's hearing if he wanted to
15 communicate with us and then would publicly say -- well, as little as was
16 necessary to indicate why he wished to communicate with us.
17 Now --
18 JUDGE ORIE: We have chosen this procedure, Mr. Stewart, in order
19 to give full respect to client/counsel privilege. It could be there is
20 some matter which should not be heard by the Prosecution; therefore, we
21 introduced this system in which the Prosecution of course is only aware
22 that there is a request. But if you would suggest if Mr. Krajisnik would
23 address us in open court and tell us: I'd like to have communication with
24 counsel for those and those reasons, of course it would come down
25 approximately to the same. So I'm -- I'm quite willing to consider with
1 the -- with my fellow Judges to see whether if Mr. Krajisnik has no
2 problems in giving information about the reasons why he wants to see
3 counsel or why he wants to speak to counsel, that we give him an
4 opportunity where it's immediately translated so that we don't have to
5 wait for the written translation. We'll consider that.
6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, that may very well -- thank you
7 for that, Your Honour, because that may very well be an immediately
8 flexible, practical approach and save trouble --
9 JUDGE ORIE: It could be an alternative procedure.
10 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that.
12 MR. STEWART: We -- we specifically, of course, reminded
13 Mr. Krajisnik that if we had adopted the procedure which I just outlined,
14 that it would be public, it would be communicated to the Prosecution, and
15 therefore he should bear that in mind in what he said.
16 Your Honour, perhaps one might bear in mind this, that so far as -
17 and no disrespect intended, Your Honour - but so far as Mr. Krajisnik, or
18 we on his behalf, had misgivings about what he should communicate to the
19 Prosecution, with the greatest respect, the same misgivings might apply in
20 relation communication to the Trial Chamber, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.
22 MR. STEWART: We are not particularly happy, I do want to make
23 that clear on Mr. Krajisnik's behalf, with the aspect of the procedure
24 Your Honour outlined where a communication goes from Mr. Krajisnik to the
25 Trial Chamber and then according to the order which is made at the moment
1 is then kept between Mr. Krajisnik and the Trial Chamber and not
2 communicated to even the Defence.
3 So, Your Honour, most of the time, if Your Honours would approach
4 it in the flexible manner that has just been considered in the last few
5 minutes, most of --
6 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider that.
7 MR. STEWART: -- We would have a preference for Mr. Krajisnik
8 simply to make that announcement there and then in brief terms in court.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will consider that.
10 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- I will then move now to the short agenda.
12 First of all, we have the submission of the requested Nielsen
13 source material. After no agreement was reached by the parties regarding
14 the submission of that source material, this Chamber has on the 27th of
15 March has ordered the Prosecution to submit the communications received by
16 the Presidency. The Chamber informed the Defence that they would have two
17 weeks from the date of submission of these documents to raise any
19 Mr. Stewart, you've stated on the 11th of April that the two weeks
20 that I had indicated for a response from the Defence have expired, and I
21 announced that we would decide on the matter but we'll not receive that
22 material this afternoon, and that was on the 11th of April. The materials
23 were not yet submitted. The two weeks for the Defence to object have not
24 yet begun to run.
25 And, Mr. Harmon, I would like to invite you to submit the Nielsen
1 material and then remind the Defence that they have two weeks from today
2 to raise any objections.
3 Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. This was a matter addressed I
5 think at the last court session. At that time Prosecution indicated that
6 we had available the binders in question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. TIEGER: We're prepared to tender them, but I think we ran out
9 of time. The Defence also has the materials -- has had the materials for
10 quite some time included in the three binders I believe which -- which
11 contain not only these materials but the additional materials to which
12 we've made reference during the discussions of this matter about this
13 matter. So we have the materials in court, we can give them to the Court
14 now --
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'd like you to submit them today and the two weeks
16 start from now on.
17 MR. TIEGER: Good. We'll provide them to the registrar at the
18 first opportunity.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have -- as the second item on our agenda, we
20 have the exhibits introduced during the testimony of Witness D24. We had
21 the minutes of two Presidency Sessions. These minutes were tendered by
22 the Defence on the 10th of April. That is Session 21C dated the 2nd of
23 August, 1992. And Session 32 dated the 29th of September, 1992.
24 These items, as far as we remember, have not been assigned exhibit
25 numbers. When these exhibits were tendered, the Defence has stated that
1 the documents were obtained by investigators working on behalf of
2 Mr. Krajisnik and promised that it would do its best to make inquiries as
3 to the provenance of the documents.
4 The parties also need to be given an opportunity to raise
5 objections to items introduced and to make submissions on which items, if
6 any, should be admitted under seal. The Chamber stated that it would
7 decide on matters of admitting under seal and referred specifically
8 to D170, which is a letter from Krajisnik and Mr. -- Mr. Krajisnik and
9 Mr. Karadzic to Ambassador Cutileiro.
10 First of all, Mr. Registrar, could you assign exhibit numbers to
11 the two Presidency Sessions minutes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D174 for the August 1992, Your
13 Honours, and D175 for September 1992.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 Could the Defence inform the Chamber, meanwhile, by the provenance
16 of these documents apart from that they were obtained by an investigator
17 working on behalf of the Defence team?
18 MR. JOSSE: I can't provide any further information --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
20 MR. JOSSE: -- at this moment.
21 Your Honour, I wouldn't go so far as to say that I promised.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --
23 MR. JOSSE: But we will continue to try and answer this particular
25 JUDGE ORIE: What is, in your expectation, would be the time in
1 which you could perform that task? I mean, if we leave you without
2 dead-lines, I know -- I'm just as human as you are. You know that --
3 MR. JOSSE: The answer to that question is -- if I focus my mind
4 on it I don't need very long, because I'm going to either get some help --
5 useful information or not. So a week would suffice, frankly. I -- as a
6 result of the e-mail exchange yesterday, I asked for it to be done again.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Should we give you time until Friday next week?
8 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour, this is a first of a number of
9 matters that might require discussion with our client. So that's the one
10 caveat. Let's assume that it doesn't and that we get the information from
11 the investigators and I feel I don't need to discuss it with
12 Mr. Krajisnik. If I do, I'll mention that to the Court. And it will,
13 frankly, have to wait. I hope that's satisfactory.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you first focus on -- I take it that
15 you know who the investigator is. We're just asking about provenance
16 without any further comments.
17 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Did you get it from whom and then you have the next
19 chain in the -- so but there are --
20 MR. JOSSE: There aren't many candidates, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then until next week Friday --
22 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- you have time to provide that information.
24 Then the next issue would be whether there are any objections to
25 exhibits and whether there are any submissions in respect of admitting --
1 admission under seal of those exhibits you've tendered through
2 Witness D24, Mr. Josse.
3 MR. JOSSE: Well, D170, I submit, does not need to be under seal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D170 not under seal. Any other exhibits?
5 MR. JOSSE: The Court will have to excuse me. I don't have a list
6 in front of me.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. When could you get that information?
8 MR. JOSSE: Later today. I will not need to speak to
9 Mr. Krajisnik about that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We expect later today to give further -- to
11 receive further information as to whether there's any wish to -- for
12 protective measures in respect of any of these exhibits.
13 Mr. Harmon, as matters stand now, any objections? Or Mr. Tieger,
14 I don't know who to address.
15 MR. HARMON: We can defer, Your Honour, our objections, if any,
16 until we hear from the Defence further on this matter. I need to check on
17 one item on these --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Josse will inform us by the end of
19 this day.
20 MR. HARMON: We will well --
21 JUDGE ORIE: You will inform us by tomorrow -- oh, you will inform
22 us by today.
23 Then perhaps no need to say that -- and of course we could not
24 expect any -- any positions to be taken by the Prosecution on documents
25 that were not yet translated, missing English translations for the Defence
1 are D171, D173, the two Presidency Session minutes which meanwhile have
2 received D174 and D175. And there's no B/C/S translation yet for D170 you
3 would like to be admitted under seal, Mr. Josse, is that --
4 MR. JOSSE: No, I said it doesn't need to be admitted under seal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I'm -- I'm sorry, it's the beginning of the
6 week. Let's blame the beginning of the week for it. You said "not under
7 seal," but a translation is still not there. Is that --
8 MR. JOSSE: That's the position.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Then for the Prosecution P1166 needs to be translated.
11 MR. HARMON: Yes, we're aware of that, Your Honour. It's being
12 translated as we speak, and we will have the translation, we hope, within
13 a week.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
15 MR. HARMON: Same applies, Your Honour, to D1168, which is noted
16 on the agenda.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- the transcript now says and I heard you also
18 saying "D1168," but it should be --
19 MR. HARMON: P1168.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P1168, yes. This is as far as the exhibits
21 introduced during the testimony of Witness D24 is concerned.
22 Then --
23 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I can deal with the matter now. The
24 registrar very efficiently has provided me with a list. I am very
25 grateful. The Defence submit that D171 and D173 should be under seal.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Then we'll hear from you, Mr. Harmon, about the confidential
3 character of D171 and D172 whether there's any objections.
4 MR. JOSSE: I said "173," Your Honour. 171 and 173.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I heard, and that's what I intended
6 to repeat but I misspoke.
7 Then Mr. Registrar has received the compact disk regarding the
8 Tuzla convoy but no number has yet been assigned. Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D176, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D176. But we have not received yet any transcripts.
11 Are they being prepared or do they exist?
12 MR. HARMON: They do not exist, Your Honour. These are items that
13 were given to the Defence because the Defence felt these were important.
14 We don't believe the transcript is necessary.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 What's the -- is it just the visual impression that --
17 MR. JOSSE: The position is as I previously stated and is rightly
18 summarised in the e-mail exchange of yesterday, namely, the Defence do not
19 consider it a worthwhile use of our resources to provide a transcript. I
20 regret to say the Chamber will have to watch this video in silence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Well, that's not always bad to do
22 something in silence, Mr. Josse. We'll do that, so that means that
23 admission of D176 is limited to the images and does not include any sound.
24 It -- I'll not be tempted to do otherwise because I take it that it's not
25 understandable for me anyhow, so as it will not be for my colleagues.
1 Yes. Then the next issue is the double pension legislation. The
2 matter was raised during the testimony of Mr. Poplasen's testimony -- the
3 testimony of Mr. Poplasen. And we have requested the parties to submit
4 the text of the legislation from whatever side. On the 28th of March, the
5 Prosecution indicated that copies of two pieces of pension legislation had
6 been provided to the Defence, and we've given you - I think you it was
7 you, Mr. Josse - another week to discuss the matter with the accused. On
8 the 10th of April, you informally indicated that you were not ready yet at
9 that time to submit the legislation. And on the 17th of April, you
10 indicated that in a communication that you were translating relevant
11 sections of a different Republika Srpska statute and requested more time,
12 and the Prosecution has asked for the citation of this legislation. Yes.
13 MR. JOSSE: Well, more material on this subject arrived from
14 Bosnia last week. That, frankly, has not been looked at by any member of
15 our team for reasons which I hope are understandable. And I spent some
16 time, the earlier part of last week, discussing this with Mr. Krajisnik,
17 and I could -- I would be prepared to provide the citation of the
18 legislation that we believe is also applicable in the Federation. Having
19 said that, how far that will take matters, I don't know, and as I've
20 already just stated, the new material has not yet been looked at. I
21 repeat again what I said in my e-mail of yesterday, this is a subject
22 which our client takes a keen interest and would, no doubt, wish to
23 discuss with me.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you need more time. At
2 the same time, the Prosecution has provided some material.
3 Could we start by just deciding on the admission of the
4 Prosecution -- the material the Prosecution has provided. It's
5 legislation, it's not a very subjective matter, although, of course, it
6 needs interpretation. And let's also keep in mind that legislation and
7 pension benefits can have all kind of different reasons to be adopted.
8 I'm aware of pension legislation which not necessarily reflects a
9 situation of hard work, even if the period in time would be covered by
10 pension. So therefore, let's not make that perhaps the vital issue on the
11 matter. But of course we should look at it. But I then suggest that we
12 invite the Prosecution to submit whatever legislation they have and give
13 you some additional time to see whether the Defence would like to submit
14 other material on the same subject.
15 MR. JOSSE: Well, I've no objection to that, Your Honour. The
16 time-scale, though, is a difficulty, bearing in mind that Mr. Krajisnik is
17 going to be -- commence his evidence very shortly.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand, and perhaps that's one of the
19 issues you could briefly discuss with him.
20 At the same time -- first of all, in the interpretation of such
21 material of course you could say we could speak with Mr. Krajisnik at
22 length after he's finished his testimony. Of course you could ask
23 Mr. Krajisnik questions on the matter during his examination, even if you
24 would not be fully briefed we will hear what his position as far as this
25 legislation concerning this would be. So therefore without giving any
1 expectation as far as whether this would be such an expectational matter
2 which would create a need to discuss these kind of matters -- I mean,
3 we're talking about legislation, we're not talking about another witness
4 statement or testimony given at another moment or -- I mean, it's a piece
5 of legislation which is --
6 MR. JOSSE: I will try my best. As I already stated, I have no
7 objection to my learned friend's documents being handed to the Chamber.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon -- then as far as time is concerned, how
9 much time would you need to look at the new material? Would until the --
10 well, 9th of the May, would that be a suggestion to --
11 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then the 9th of May is the dead-line given to the
15 Defence to submit any further material.
16 Mr. Harmon.
17 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
18 We have done the following. We have, based on Mr. Poplasen's
19 evidence referencing double pension legislation, we have gone to
20 legislation dealing with pensions in both the Federation and the
21 Republika Srpska.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. HARMON: They are extensive pieces of legislation. One
24 has 253 articles, one has 157 articles. We have not bothered translating
25 the complete set of legislation in both of the entities, nor have we made
1 copies of these. What we have done is we have identified the relevant
2 provision that was identified, first of all, by Mr. Poplasen in the
3 Federation legislation. And based on court inquiry during the colloquy
4 with the parties as to whether or not there was a equivalent provision in
5 the Republika Srpska legislation, we surveyed that legislation and
6 identified an equivalent, what we submit is an equivalent article, or
7 articles. So we have identified those, we have translated those, and we
8 will be prepared to submit copies of only those articles. If the Court
9 wishes, we can also make copies and submit untranslated the complete
10 legislations in both of the entities dealing with the pensions, but I
11 leave it to the Court.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then be very practical. The Defence has
13 received copies of the, in your view, relevant portions and the
15 MR. HARMON: Yes, that's correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then, also until the 9th of May, give the
17 Defence an opportunity to add any article of this legislation which in the
18 Defence's view would be relevant, then seek translation to be made so that
19 what finally will be received by the Chamber are those articles. So that
20 means the heading, law of this and this state, et cetera, et cetera
21 published there, there, and there. And then the relevant articles,
22 relevant both in view of the Prosecution and the Defence, and we would
23 like then to receive any suggestion for adding articles to the translation
24 also by the 9th of May, Mr. Josse. Yes.
25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then next item on the agenda is the retranslation
4 of P824 and submission of Official Gazette.
5 We asked you, Mr. Harmon, to submit a retranslation of
6 Exhibit P824, tab 1, which is a decision of the Serb Assembly of Hadzici
7 municipality, and to submit, if it was available to you, the Official
8 Gazette number 11 of 1992 containing a decree on the return of the Serb
9 Republic -- to the Serb Republic of the people who moved out, which is
10 referred to in the Assembly decision and to provide that to us by the
11 30th of March. And as far as our recollection goes, we have not received
12 it. Could you update us on the matter?
13 MR. HARMON: I'm informed, Your Honour, that we will need one more
14 week to complete that process.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, is there any problem if we would grant an
16 additional week to the Prosecution to finalise this matter?
17 MR. JOSSE: Not as far as the Defence are concerned, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then you got the week you asked for, Mr. Harmon.
19 MR. HARMON: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- yes. There is a matter which has to be dealt
21 with in private session, number 5 on the agenda, Mr. Josse. I see you
22 nodding. I don't know yet whether it's yes or no, but --
23 MR. JOSSE: Well, for my -- our part it does not need to be dealt
24 with at this stage in this way.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll leave it as it is for the time being unless
1 you --
2 MR. JOSSE: I am basically agreeable with what Mr. Zahar has
3 suggested. If the need arises, then it will be revisited, as Your Honour
4 has indicated, somewhat later in the case.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that means that the three exhibits mentioned
6 here, that's P595, P596, and P597, will remain under seal, and we'll hear
7 from the Defence if there's any need to change that, and then we'll hear
8 that in private session and then we'll give a decision. But as matters
9 stand now, we leave it as it is.
10 MR. JOSSE: We don't need to spend any more time on it. I'm sure
11 about that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
13 Any other matters?
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got two matters. One tiny and one
15 not very big.
16 The tiny matter is this, Your Honour. In paragraph 15 of Your
17 Honours' order yesterday it doesn't happen everyday in this case, but I've
18 been given undue credit there, Your Honour. The detective work was not
19 done by me, it was done by my co-detective, Mr. Josse, who spotted the
20 error. I'm the person who brought it to your attention, yes, but I was
21 just the messenger. But the credit for that eagle eye belongs to
22 Mr. Josse.
23 The second matter is this, Your Honour. It may be helpful just
24 now for one moment before Your Honours adjourn. May I just show Your
25 Honour and the Prosecution and everybody else just very, very briefly what
1 we've done by way of presentation of material and the hyperlinking,
2 because then if Your Honours had any questions that occurred to you over
3 the short break, then it might be helpful. I've got Mr. Sladojevic beside
4 me. He can bring up on Your Honours' screen now a list of the various
6 Okay. Do Your Honours have it?
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have a practical problem, perhaps that's the first
8 question I would have, that my screen is -- and I see that the same might
9 be true for you, Mr. Registrar, that it's very vague, as a matter of fact.
10 It's almost impossible to read, and that seems to be a technical matter
11 rather than anything else, unless I could --
12 MR. STEWART: Well, it seems a good job that we are dealing with
13 this now then, Your Honour, so we can see whether we can iron out some of
14 these --
15 JUDGE ORIE: There must be something in the connection which makes
16 it a bit blurred rather than -- and now we have it right on our screens.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's maybe a different button or something
18 like that, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: Well, do Your Honours see now clearly, I hope --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. STEWART: And they're pretty self-explanatory. We've got --
23 well, it's about 17 files, because there's folders, there's A and B. The
24 matches that Your Honours will see 14, some have got an A and B number,
25 but 14 folders and then equivalent what are referred to as binders. And
1 if Mr. Sladojevic, for example, were to bring up any one would do,
2 actually, say 6A would do, Republika Srpska government sessions, Your
3 Honours will see the list there and the hyperlinking English and B/C/S.
4 For most of us in court it will be English, well, most or all of the time.
5 I'm not proposing -- it's not technically feasible anyway, actually, Your
6 Honour, not proposing that we double up by some of us using the English
7 hyperlinking and Mr. Krajisnik, for example, using the B/C/S hyperlinking.
8 That really won't work. But it won't matter. Mr. Krajisnik can be
9 provided and will be provided with hard copy of anything in B/C/S -- well,
10 it will be B/C/S in his case that you want to ask him about if there is
11 the need, as there is sometimes for Your Honours and everybody else to
12 look at the B/C/S document to see what it looks like, then we can bring it
13 up by hyperlinking in this way.
14 May I just add, Your Honour, that not a great deal of this
15 material is in evidence, quite a bit of it tucked away in the recesses
16 of P64, Mr. Treanor's 28 binders, and good luck to anybody that goes
17 foraging in those binders. But there's quite a lot of stuff that isn't in
19 Your Honour, may we just approach it this way, that from time to
20 time we perhaps review what should go in evidence and what is not in
21 evidence. But we hope that this is -- Your Honour can see from the nature
22 of the material, we hope this is a practical help to all concerned in
23 getting through Mr. Krajisnik's evidence as efficiently as possible.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that any material that's not yet in
25 evidence that we receive that in hard copy as well?
1 MR. STEWART: Any material that's not in yet evidence, Your
2 Honour --
3 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. That we receive it if it will be introduced
4 during the testimony. You may have noticed that now and then I try to
5 browse --
6 MR. STEWART: I have spotted that occasionally over the past two
7 years, Your Honour, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And I, in fact, continue to do that.
9 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed. I'm not asking Your Honour to break
10 the habits of a lifetime or two years.
11 Your Honour, yes, I just hope that -- excuse me one moment, Your
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's no problem. I'm always anxious to
15 preserve us from massive multiple copying jobs. But, in principle, yes,
16 of course, Your Honour, and we wish Your Honours to have that material in
17 usable form.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That looks promising, I must say.
19 MR. STEWART: Well, I hope the promise will be --
20 JUDGE ORIE: As a computer addict, but at least as someone who
21 sees the advantages of using electronical material so that you have quick
22 access to the material we have to look at.
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'd like to acknowledge in advance the
24 extreme help from Mr. Sladojevic and other members of my team in putting
25 this together. That means they get the blame if it goes wrong, but that's
1 another matter.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other matter, apart from this tiny one
3 and --
4 MR. STEWART: No, that's done, Your Honour, those two matters.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Assuming that it will be a possibility for you,
8 Mr. Stewart, and you, Mr. Josse, to confer with Mr. Krajisnik during the
9 break, we'd like to give you 37 minutes and re-start at 10.30.
10 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour, that's our break gone.
11 It's -- Your Honour, it -- well, that's our break gone. It's --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have during the last five weeks or six weeks,
13 I have never had a break without at least two or three meetings, so I'm
14 aware that --
15 MR. STEWART: Well, to make a point, Your Honour, I have a whole
16 team and, Your Honour, it's a reasonable request, actually. This has
17 been -- these have been pretty hard days for my team.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll start at 20 minutes to 11.00.
19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 --- Recess taken at 9.55 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to call its next
23 witness which I do understand is Mr. Krajisnik?
24 MR. STEWART: Not quite, Your Honour. As a result of the
25 discussions which -- thank you for giving us the opportunity of having
1 with Mr. Krajisnik, there are a few points which the Defence wishes --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would like to raise before --
3 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour, absolutely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. STEWART: And they -- some of them arise out of the order,
6 Your Honour.
7 Actually, may I deal with the tiny points first. Mr. Krajisnik
8 would like to take the -- this is not a big point, Your Honour, the
9 earphone with which he is familiar and comfortable, the one-ear earphone.
10 He would like to take that with him into the witness box. We don't see a
11 major problem about that, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I. I do not see any objection from my
13 fellow Judges.
14 MR. STEWART: Thank you. Your Honour, also Mr. Krajisnik in the
15 light of Your Honours' decision as it stands at the moment, Mr. Krajisnik
16 would like to have, if possible, the videotapes. Your Honours' order
17 refers to the audiotapes. He would like to have, if possible, the
18 videotapes which obviously includes the audio of his evidence each day as
19 quickly as they can be made available. On CD because that's the -- I
20 said "tapes," I'm using that rather loosely, Your Honour. These days they
21 come on CDs or DVDs that are playable.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider the matter. We'll look at how quickly
23 they can be produced, and we'll further consider whether there would be
24 any objection against it.
25 [Trial Chamber confers].
1 MR. STEWART: I just -- I may say, Your Honour -- sorry.
2 Your Honour, I just had in mind it seemed a clear implication of
3 Your Honours' order and the reference to audiotapes that they would be
4 provided as soon as practicable.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll -- the Judges have no problems but of
6 course we would have to inquire into technical possibilities.
7 Of course, one of the major advantages of DVD above anything else
8 is that you can more quickly go through the material and move forward more
9 easily and at the same time look at it.
10 MR. STEWART: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If that would be possible, then we would certainly
12 support that request.
13 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. As I understand it,
14 Mr. Krajisnik doesn't have the facilities to view tapes, Your Honour, so
15 that's why that specific request.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the next matter is the matter of the --
18 Your Honours will recall the letter, the recent letter that Mr. Krajisnik
19 had delivered to the Trial Chamber on the question of witnesses and a
20 suggestion of interference with Defence witnesses.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honour, it was returned.
23 The position, Your Honour, as far as Defence counsel are
24 concerned, Your Honour, is that we have no filing ready, prepared in any
25 sort of draft on that matter, and we have to inform the Trial Chamber and
1 Mr. Krajisnik that it is by no means -- and by no means sure that there
2 ever will be a filing on that matter by counsel on Mr. Krajisnik's behalf.
3 Mr. Krajisnik is, once again, insistent, that's his word, which I pass on
4 to Your Honours, he is once again insistent that he wishes that letter of
5 his to go to Your Honours.
6 Your Honour, I really can - and I hope Your Honours -- I really
7 can do no more than pass on that message.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand the discussion between counsel and
9 the accused have been finalised by now and we'll see what to do.
10 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
11 The last point, Your Honour, is a matter of very considerable
12 concern to Mr. Krajisnik, and therefore I also make this point from him.
13 He has had drawn to his attention and has considered what Your Honours
14 said in your order in relation to the timing of the final briefs, filing
15 of final briefs, where Your Honours said that -- the fact that counsel for
16 the Defence have not found time to work on the brief, that's during the
17 course of the case, may be due to Mr. Krajisnik's non-payment since the
18 start of the trial if his assessed contribution to his Defence fund, which
19 is a significant portion of the whole, and we informed him fully of that
20 paragraph and Your Honours' expressed view that you should not give the
21 Tribunal's precious time to compensate for his decision to keep his
22 Defence team underfunded. Mr. Krajisnik wishes me to communicate from him
23 to the Trial Chamber that he considers that he has met all the obligations
24 which he undertook from his discussions with the Registry at around the
25 time hat I came into the case in the summer of 2004. So he does -- well,
1 he rejects that point in Your Honours' order.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But at the same time,
3 Mr. Stewart, you're well aware -- I do understand that you communicate to
4 the Chamber what Mr. Krajisnik's position in that respect is. It is more
5 or less commenting on the Chamber's decision, and you know what -- if you
6 do not agree either with the reasoning or the outcome of a decision what
7 is the proper way of doing that and that would be to consider whether it
8 would merit an appeal or not and rather not to give your -- to express
9 your feelings of unhappiness with the decision or the reasoning of it is
10 not a very common thing to do. But I do understand that you are at this
11 moment, which is the last moment in which you could do it for the time
12 being, that you're communicating to us the feelings of Mr. Krajisnik in
13 this respect.
14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour understands very well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and fully.
16 MR. STEWART: -- where we are on that.
17 Your Honour, in relation to -- and accepting what Your Honour has
18 said about the proper mechanism for certification appeal and so on, of
19 course we're fully aware of that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: To consider whether it merits, yes.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes. I -- yes, I didn't say anything different,
22 Your Honour. Agreed, Your Honour.
23 The -- so far as the -- I know Mr. Josse wants to have a word in a
24 moment, and I will ask for that opportunity in just a second. But so far
25 as the final -- preparation of final briefs are concerned, again it's for
1 consideration whether an application is made for certification of appeal,
2 and we have Mr. Krajisnik's view on that, Your Honour. He wishes us to
3 express now, though, his extreme dissatisfaction at a timetable which, for
4 practical purposes, he feels -- and on this, Your Honour, the Defence does
5 support this last point by way of submission, he won't have an adequate
6 opportunity to participate in the preparation of the final brief himself,
7 especially having regard to the language difficulties which, of course, in
8 relation to that particular item in that particular timetable are
9 especially difficult, to put it mildly. So we do -- we do make that
10 point, Your Honour.
11 May I have a moment? I know Mr. Josse wants to have a word with
12 me about something.
13 [Defence counsel confer]
14 MR. STEWART: No, that's it, Your Honour, for -- on all those
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a question whether you're ready to call
17 your next witness, being Mr. Krajisnik, as I understand.
18 MR. STEWART: Mr. Krajisnik is my next witness, Your Honour, and I
19 do call him.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Krajisnik, yes, you would like to raise a
21 matter? You are raising your hand.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Honourable Judges, maybe I didn't
23 ask quite well, but I had asked Mr. Stewart to notify you that I wanted
24 him to appeal a decision as a precondition for an appeal based on the fact
25 that I didn't participate in my defence. So I wanted your decision on
1 which made conditional the submission of a motion. I wanted that
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid I do not fully understand. Are you saying
4 to us, Mr. Krajisnik, at this moment that you instructed Mr. Stewart to
5 appeal against the decision we delivered yesterday? Is that what you
6 are -- yes. Well, then, we'll hear from Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart
7 knows --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the part that concerns my
9 participation in the financing of the defence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I explained to you that -- you say the
11 reasoning is incorrect. I now fully understand that you instructed
12 Mr. Stewart to seek a certificate for an appeal focussing on that portion
13 of the decision that is the reasoning for not granting additional time for
14 preparation of your final briefs where it says that it may be due as well
15 to -- yes. I do understand. Since this is the very last moment that you
16 could express yourself on the matter in a communication with Mr. Stewart,
17 that you would like to emphasise that.
18 Mr. Stewart, I take it the matter is clear that Mr. Krajisnik told
19 us that he instructed you to seek a certificate for an appeal on this
20 specific matter, and we'll hear from you or in a -- in the near future
21 about it.
22 And of course, Mr. Krajisnik, I cannot make any assessment on what
23 could cause Mr. Stewart either to follow your instruction or to be
24 hesitant to do so. And if that would need further discussions,
25 Mr. Stewart or you will ask us for further communication on the matter
1 before Mr. Stewart will file the appeal. I can imagine that it's a matter
2 which needs further attention, but the Chamber stays out of it. But you
3 clarified what Mr. Stewart told us is that you did not only express your
4 dissatisfaction with that portion of the decision, but that it is your
5 wish that a certificate for appeal will be applied for. That is clear at
6 this moment.
8 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. The Trial Chamber will be able to
9 see very well areas here arising out of this order and in connection with
10 this order which involve a distinct conflict of interest between counsel
11 and client.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm fully aware of that, yes.
13 MR. STEWART: Not conflict, but conflict of interest.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. STEWART: Although conflict of interest can, of course, lead
16 to conflict quite easily.
17 Your Honour, frankly, we were -- we were troubled by the timing of
18 this order. However it happened, the effect was that after having what
19 was going to be for the foreseeable future our last meeting with
20 Mr. Krajisnik yesterday at the -- yesterday afternoon at the Detention
21 Unit, that actually sometime later in the course of our evening's work
22 picking up the order, we've now had to deal - and thank you for the time
23 earlier, Your Honours - but we have now had to deal with an order
24 involving a number of different points which Mr. Krajisnik has not got in
25 translation, though we have very skillful interpreters on our team. I'm
1 concerned, Your Honour. Mr. Krajisnik and I, I'm happy to say, we parted
2 on very friendly terms yesterday evening when Mr. Josse and Mr. Krajisnik
3 and I and all concerned, we left the Detention Unit and that friendly tone
4 has persisted this morning. But I -- I'm -- I do not feel comfortable
5 about embarking on Mr. Krajisnik's evidence if there is, as there
6 sometimes is then, lingering tension, lingering misgivings on
7 Mr. Krajisnik's part, given that I as his counsel now have to examine him
8 in chief for some considerable time. Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
10 MR. STEWART: What I'm asking for, Your Honour -- I'm sorry, I
11 didn't mean to interrupt.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, not -- please proceed. I was about to interrupt
14 MR. STEWART: No, I beg your pardon, Your Honour. Thank you so
16 I would ask for a few more minutes with Mr. Krajisnik now.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the -- and Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber
19 has considered the matter. It's -- I mean, the potential conflict of
20 interest is there. Of course, if the matter could be resolved by a short
21 conversation, that would be fine; if, however, the apparent problem would
22 not be resolved, the Chamber is thinking more in terms of seeking advice
23 from a not directly involved counsel in the matter rather than anything
24 else. The Chamber is not inclined to allow any further delay of the start
25 of the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik.
1 MR. STEWART: May I ask for clarification, Your Honour. I've --
2 because --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the matter -- the matter whether a
4 certificate for appeal should be sought, yes or no, and for what reasons,
5 I mean there still is an opportunity to separate that more or less from
6 this case and seek someone to be involved who could advise Mr. Krajisnik
7 on the matter and then --
8 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, Your Honour, I'm so sorry. That
9 as the matter on which I sought qualification. A not directly involved
10 counsel. Mr. Krajisnik is to have advice from someone else, is he?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there is -- I understand -- let's say it in
12 plain terms. I do understand that the matter of Mr. Krajisnik
13 contributing to his own defence, to the costs of his own defence, might be
14 a matter on which you have different views than Mr. Krajisnik has.
15 MR. STEWART: And different interests as well, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And different interests as well.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, one could consider to provide -- to
19 provide, on a temporary basis, advice to Mr. Krajisnik by another lawyer
20 whose task would be restricted entirely to that matter.
21 MR. STEWART: To -- sorry, Your Honour, to which matter, to the
22 question of whether he should appeal?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour -- sorry, Your Honour, that, with
25 respect, that simply won't work. We are his counsel. We conduct his
1 case. We either appeal on his behalf or we don't.
2 I must say, Your Honour, I think we're going down some road where
3 some other counsel involved starts lodging appeals on matters in a case
4 which we are conducting on Mr. Krajisnik's behalf where we have a -- I'm
5 sorry, Your Honour, I feel the need to see this through, but I'm just
6 wondering where on earth that goes. You see, it comes back --
7 JUDGE ORIE: It's an incident in a -- a smaller incident -- of
8 course the result is important both for you. You're seeking to have
9 additional time to prepare for the final brief, Mr. Krajisnik has an
10 interest to further time -- to seek further time for the preparation of a
11 final brief. But he is mainly concerned about the reasoning of the
12 Chamber, or at least a small part of the reasoning of the Chamber, and I
13 can imagine that one of the matters of concern would be that you would not
14 support entirely the criticism on that part of the reasoning.
15 MR. STEWART: It's -- it's quite a complex issue, Your Honour.
16 I should say that -- again, I don't believe for one moment there's
17 anything improper about me saying this. I wrote on Mr. Krajisnik's
18 instructions to the Registry on his behalf in relation to this matter
19 recently, but it has now been agreed between the Registry and me and --
20 the Registry and me in not any collusive way that it -- because of this
21 potential conflict it's not appropriate for me to continue that
22 correspondence. Mr. Krajisnik is free to correspond directly at any time
23 with the Registry and they of course with him, and on the particular issue
24 it's been understood that I really -- it is my suggestion that I really
25 needed to step aside from that.
1 But, Your Honour, there are -- there's -- I won't go into it, Your
2 Honour, but Mr. Krajisnik's assertions about his agreements and
3 arrangements with the Registry back in 2004, those are factual matters in
4 which I was not directly involved. I was, of course, very heavily
5 involved in the whole question of my coming into the case naturally and
6 all sorts of financial aspects, but they involve, if you like, factual
7 matters on which I have nothing to say because I wasn't there at
8 particular discussions. But they do give rise to a conflict.
9 But what also -- and, Your Honour, may I mention this. What also
10 causes enormous difficulty and a real conflict of interest between counsel
11 and client is that where Your Honours, for example, in this latest order
12 say that one of the reasons why we, counsel, haven't been able to work on
13 the final brief during the course of the case may be Mr. Krajisnik's
14 failure to make his contribution, we have already summarised this
15 submission before. The possibilities are all or any of a combination of
16 failure to make his combination, inadequate work by counsel, or excessive
17 pressures on counsel of the case. And the non-identification of which of
18 those ingredients contributes to the difficulty and an order in this form
19 which says that this may be a reason and then goes on to make an order
20 based on the footing that it is part of the reason puts me and
21 Mr. Krajisnik in a terribly difficult position.
22 And what I'm concerned about, Your Honour -- I said it not
23 cryptically, but I said I had Mr. Krajisnik's views on the question of
24 certification and so on. It's now clear what those views are. A, they
25 have to be very carefully considered; but B, the time for certification is
1 going to tick away, or an application for certification is going to tick
2 away, and it's going to expire in about seven days' time. So it's going
3 to expire right in the middle of Mr. Krajisnik's evidence. That's not
4 going to be easy, Your Honour, if Mr. Krajisnik is not happy with our
5 decision, let alone Your Honour's decision.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we -- of course we could extend the time-limit
7 if we want to.
8 MR. STEWART: That puts off the evil day, Your Honour, but that
9 doesn't solve the problem one tiny bit. It makes it worse, with respect.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well ...
11 MR. STEWART: Well, it does, Your Honour, because then it's
12 ticking away.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll discuss the matter for most likely
15 approximately 15 minutes at this moment. You have an opportunity to speak
16 to Mr. Krajisnik on the matter.
17 And one of the things --
18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I would just like you to consider as a
20 possibility, Mr. Stewart, is the following. I was at a point earlier to
21 explain to Mr. Krajisnik the difference between a decision, a criticism to
22 a decision, and a criticism to the reasoning of a decision. If you -- if
23 you say: I'm not happy with the reasons, that does not necessarily result
24 in another decision. Sometimes reasons can be replaced by other reasons.
25 We've really considered the matter, so that is a matter.
1 One of the things I could imagine - and that's perhaps I was not
2 very precise in my wordings, and I do agree with you that it's a complex
3 matter - one of the things I had in mind that if you're both seeking more
4 time, and if you find there are good reasons to do so and therefore you
5 would be inclined to seek certification of the -- for an appeal, and if
6 Mr. Krajisnik wants to go in the same direction, that as far as the
7 reasons for the appeal are concerned, one could imagine that you in your
8 request for a certification, you would write down all the reasons you
9 consider reasonable reasons for such an appeal and add to them, very
10 specifically, to say: I add to these reasons reasons I'm instructed by my
11 client to give for such an appeal, leaving apart whether I would or would
12 not fully support but I accept these reasons on the basis that he was
13 advised by a qualified lawyer on this matter and therefore I adopt those
14 reasons in my appeal. That's a way of manoeuvreing through the problems
15 which I would not consider at first sight to be inappropriate and I'd --
16 it doesn't have a great impact, I take it, on the way the appeal is
17 handled or the request for a certificate. I would just like you to
18 consider that possibility and perhaps, if you have considered it and if
19 you think it worthwhile, to discuss it with Mr. Krajisnik, to do so.
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we will certainly give it
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
23 We will adjourn for 15 minutes.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.04 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, is there -- has your conversation with
2 Mr. Krajisnik changed anything compared to the position before we left
3 this courtroom?
4 MR. STEWART: Well, it -- it hasn't changed anything in substance.
5 We've -- we have discussed various points, Your Honour, and there's a
6 measure of agreement on some things and then there are other matters
7 unresolved. But what it has brought us to is this, Your Honour, and this
8 inevitably has to be an assessment by Mr. Josse and me as well as a
9 submission. But, Your Honour, we do not consider that Mr. Krajisnik is in
10 a state to begin evidence today. Mr. Krajisnik agrees.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Having consulted by colleagues -- first of all, is --
13 does the Prosecution wish to add anything to this?
14 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber decides that we will start in
16 a couple of minutes from now on the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik, which has
17 been prepared for such a long time.
18 Secondly, for a better understanding of our decision delivered
19 yesterday specifically on the subject matter of the dead-line for the
20 final briefs, the parties are informed that the reasons for denying the
21 time asked for preparing final briefs are found in paragraph 19 of that
22 decision. If a request for a certificate for an appeal would be filed,
23 whatever we'll find in that request the Chamber will in any case consider
24 what Mr. Krajisnik told us about his dissatisfaction on paragraph 20 of
25 the decision. This is the ruling of the Chamber.
1 Then the Defence is now requested to call its next witness, which
2 is Mr. Krajisnik, so that he starts his testimony.
3 MR. STEWART: I call Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to follow Madam Usher
5 to the stand.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I see that you have now your own
8 earphone with you. And before I'll invite you to make a solemn
9 declaration, I'd just like to inform you and inform the Defence as well
10 that we inquired into the possibility of providing you with a DVD. It's
11 possible to prepare a DVD so that you can review that, video DVD, but it
12 takes a bit more time. It would cause a delay of approximately one day,
13 so where an audio CD or DVD could be provided within -- well, let's say
14 within one hour, this would take 24 hours. So I take it that you still
15 prefer to have the DVD -- the video DVD. Is that correct? Yes, I see you
16 are nodding yes.
17 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, you're now in a different position, not only
18 I would say geographically, you're not anymore on my right-hand side,
19 you're just in front of me. That means you are in a different position.
20 You will now become a witness in your own case. And the Rules of
21 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
22 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
23 text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to
24 make that solemn declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Krajisnik.
3 Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please have some paper?
6 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Stewart:
9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what are your full names, please?
10 A. Momcilo Krajisnik.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, have you -- have you brought with you into the
12 witness box or in your case a copy of what you know to be a draft 89(F)
13 statement. It's 44 paragraphs and it's something which you have,
14 yourself, made some handwritten amendments to overnight?
15 A. I brought it. May I take it out of my brief-case? I have it here
16 with me.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it you want to submit it to the Court.
18 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, you are invited to do so,
20 Mr. Krajisnik.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, the way -- and the Prosecution
22 have been informed of this, Your Honour. Because Mr. Krajisnik has made
23 some amendments overnight, there are quite a few of them, though they are
24 quite short, and as I did notify the -- an officer in the Trial Chamber
25 early this morning, we wish to have this read into the record. The
1 procedure I would propose to adopt, Your Honour, is that I would read from
2 the English, and I do know on which paragraphs Mr. Krajisnik has a change
3 to make, and I would then give him that opportunity paragraph by
5 JUDGE ORIE: And to add that in B/C/S so that it will be
6 translated and it will be in the record.
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. And then no doubt in due
8 course we can get something --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed on that basis.
10 MR. STEWART:
11 Q. Paragraph 1, this is your statement which I'm going to ask you
12 whether you confirm in the end, Mr. Krajisnik. That: "I was born on the
13 20th of January 1945 in Zabrdje, a suburban community in the Sarajevo
14 metropolitan area. My father was Sretko, my mother, Milka. I have one
15 brother, Mirko Krajisnik, born in 1950."
16 Paragraph 2: "I attended elementary school in Reljevo not far
17 from Zabrdje. Then I attended economics middle school in Sarajevo from
18 1959 to 1963. I completed my studies at the faculty of economics in 1967
19 and took my degree on the 2nd of October, 1968. I completed my graduate
20 studies in 1975 in Sarajevo and later successfully defended my master's
21 thesis in 1980. My brother, Mirko, went to the same middle school and
22 later also was graduated from the faculty of economics in Sarajevo."
23 Paragraph 3: "As a student, I was not politically active on
24 campus, but I was a member of the youth organisation and the SSRN,
25 Socialist Alliance of Working People of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those
1 organisations were created by the communist regime but had no independent
2 political weight and were under the control of the communist party. In
3 this way, I had the opportunity of representing the Zabrdje area. As I
4 was rated an exemplary youth, I was accorded the privilege of serving my
5 military duty in 1969 to 1970 in my native city of Sarajevo. After the
6 normal few months of boot camp, I remained in Sarajevo in the post of
7 commander of a unit which was training a new batch of raw recruits at the
8 reserve officers school educational centre. I was first employed on the
9 15th of October, 1968, at the Energoinvest enterprise in Sarajevo. I was
10 assigned to the financial services section of the company, Energobanka. I
11 was employed there until 1975 except for the 11 months I spent in military
12 service. Until I was called-up I was a clerk. After my release from the
13 army and two years of on-the-job training, I was promoted to director of
14 the financial services section. After Energoinvest was reorganised, I was
15 transferred to the TAT" --
16 A. Director of the service in a big sector.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have the
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was director of a service.
20 MR. STEWART:
21 Q. Promoted to director of the ...
22 A. A service, but a sector is high above that.
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, before Mr. Stewart continues
24 I don't know if he heard but perhaps it would be helpful to provide --
25 MR. STEWART: Yes, I did hear, thank you. And I apologise. I
1 thought it had happened. Do the interpreters want both the B/C/S and the
3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Reading might take some additional time, so if
5 there's any way of copying -- if -- if any copies are available -- of
6 course we have an English version but not a B/C/S version.
7 MR. STEWART: Can I say, Your Honour, my apologies. I'd only like
8 to say that there have been terrible problems out there in the Defence
9 room today with broken-down photocopiers, printer not working, and so on.
10 I do apologise for that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there's any need -- if that would instruct
12 any further problems, then I would invite those who are supporting
13 Chambers to make, quickly, copies as soon as we have received a B/C/S and
14 an English version. I take it that production will take --
15 MR. STEWART: Yeah, we can give a B/C/S version immediately, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. STEWART: We have one.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And if the English copy is there as well.
20 The Chamber's support staff will take care that within a couple of
21 minutes copies will be there so that the interpreters will on from then
22 have no further difficulties.
23 MR. STEWART: My apologies, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please, if you would proceed then at
25 this moment at a low speed, as you had already, reading.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. After Energoinvest was reorganised, I was transferred to the TAT
4 Termoaparati factory in Sarajevo which was an integral part of
5 Energoinvest. I was financial director of the factory. After TAT was
6 reorganised in" -- and I think you want to make a change to this bit,
7 Mr. Krajisnik. "After TAT was reorganised in 1977, I became one of the
8 vice-presidents of the business committee in charge of finance."
9 And you wish to make some change to that last sentence, do you?
10 A. I just wish to add something, that this reorganisation was carried
11 out. Now was it 1976 or 1977, I'm not sure, but your associates have
12 already entered the correction, that I was vice-president of the business
13 committee in charge of finance.
14 Q. Yes. So the -- it's just that the date -- it can read: "After
15 TAT was reorganised in 1976 or 1977," and then as the text stands?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 5: "In 1973, I married Milanka Micevic, who
18 was born in 1949. She was a teacher and worked at the Reljevo and
19 Brijesce elementary schools close to Zabrdje. My wife and I lived with
20 our children in our own house. I lived in Zabrdje from birth to the
21 beginning of the war in April 1992 when I moved with my family to Pale.
22 My wife and I had three children: Milica, born in 1974; Milos born in
23 1978; and Njegos born in 1982. All were born in Sarajevo. Milica, Milos,
24 and Njegos were all graduated in economics, the last being Njegos on
25 28 March, 2006. All three studied in Pale and are living there now."
1 Paragraph 6: "I first met Radovan Karadzic in 1983. At that time
2 I was employed at TAT while Dr. Karadzic was a psychiatrist at the
3 Sarajevo clinical centre. Dr. Karadzic was working part time at the
4 Energoinvest medical centre in downtown Sarajevo about 6" - sorry, my
5 mistake - "about 10 kilometres from the TAT main office which was in Stup
6 in the municipality of Ilidza. I met Dr. Karadzic by chance in 1983
7 through a mutual acquaintance. That acquaintance asked me to help a
8 friend of his, meaning Dr. Karadzic, by giving him professional advice on
9 how to obtain credit for the construction of an industrial facility."
10 And, Mr. Krajisnik, I think there may be a change at the very end
12 A. Yes. This is a combined facility, business and housing.
13 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, please, exactly how you would wish it to
14 read then, that sentence, Mr. Krajisnik.
15 A. To obtain credit for the building of a combined business/housing
16 facility. That is, a facility that is used for residential purposes and
17 for production, small-scale production.
18 Q. So, Mr. Krajisnik, if we add on at the end then that small
19 explanation, that is a facility that is used for residential purposes and
20 for production, small-scale production, and it can read in that way?
21 Thank you.
22 Paragraph 7: "The three of us, my friend, Dr. Karadzic and I, met
23 in a Sarajevo restaurant called Snack Bar in the Malta district. I
24 explained to Dr. Karadzic what types of loans were available from the
25 various banks. I was in a position to do that because as part of my job I
1 was dealing with most Sarajevo financial institutions on an everyday
2 basis. Dr. Karadzic was finally successful in obtaining a loan, but I
3 played no role in that nor were my further services required. I learned
4 of these further developments from the mutual acquaintance. As a few
5 months later, Dr. Karadzic began to work at the Energoinvest ambulance, I
6 began to see him from time to time."
7 And, Mr. Krajisnik, I think you do have some changes to make in
8 that paragraph?
9 A. Yes. After the word "Dr. Karadzic got a credit, obtained a loan,"
10 it should be added -- or rather, the following words should be added. "By
11 investing his own foreign currency." That was the easiest type of loan to
13 And at the end of the paragraph: "He worked as a freelancer in
14 Vares or Breza," I don't know exactly which town," in addition to working
15 at the Energoinvest infirmary."
16 Q. Yes. Thank you.
17 Paragraph 8: "Through Dr. Karadzic I met Nikola Koljevic, as he
18 and Dr. Karadzic were long-time friends. These developments were taking
19 place immediately prior to the Sarajevo Winter Olympics in 1984.
20 Dr. Karadzic wanted to use the structure he had built to service Olympics
21 visitors, but that did not come to fruition. Later on in 1984
22 Dr. Karadzic moved to Belgrade and spent half a year or more there. Being
23 unable to resolve some personal issues, exchanging his Sarajevo apartment
24 for one in the capital and finding a job there for his wife, Dr. Karadzic
25 returned to Sarajevo to work at the same clinic where he had been employed
2 And, Mr. Krajisnik, I think there may be a very small amendment to
3 be made somewhere in that passage. Is that correct?
4 A. I wanted the following to be added. For the apartment not to say
5 capital but to say Belgrade.
6 Q. Yes. So it just reads: "Exchanging his Sarajevo apartment for
7 one in Belgrade."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then going to the last sentence: "I was unaware at the time that
10 Dr. Karadzic had moved to Belgrade or what the reasons were for that move.
11 There as no contact between Dr. Karadzic and me while he was in Belgrade."
12 Well, it wasn't the last sentence, but that's clear to you, that
13 paragraph, is it, is it, Mr. Krajisnik? Thank you. You nodded. Thank
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Paragraph 9: "During our acquaintanceship Dr. Karadzic and I did
17 get together socially such as for family visits or for holidays."
18 Paragraph 10: "Until the first half of 1990, I had taken no part
19 in politics or in any of the activities of which I was unaware anyway
20 which led to the founding of the SDS party."
21 And again I think there may be changes to be made to that
22 paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik.
23 A. I think that something should be deleted. The part that's in
24 brackets should be deleted and the following words should be inserted:
25 "But on television and through the newspapers I followed, like any other
1 citizen, what was going on on the political scene."
2 Q. That's -- those are all the changes to that paragraph,
3 Mr. Krajisnik, are they?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Paragraph 11: "My family had been living in Zabrdje and Rajlovac
7 over the previous 300 years. My father's property that Prosecution
8 investigator Mr. Jovanovic had identified in Rajlovac and Zabrdje had been
9 acquired by generations of Krajisniks. The only thing done by me
10 personally was to construct a home, but part of the land it was situated
11 on had been acquired by my parents."
12 Paragraph 12: "Other than the home and the land, I had no other
13 property in Zabrdje and Rajlovac. The property I held in Pale was
14 acquired on credit and continues to be under encumbrance."
15 Paragraph 13: "I first became involved in politics when I became
16 a member of the SDS at the time of its founding on 13th of July, 1990."
17 But, Mr. Krajisnik, you may have a change in that sentence? Which
19 A. Yes. Instead of the 13th of July it should say the 12th of July.
20 Q. So continuing. "At that time the SDS was a broad Serbian national
21 movement which Serbs were joining en masse. I was not on the SDS founding
22 committee, nor did Dr. Karadzic insist that I join. I don't know why I
23 wasn't asked to join. It was probably because Dr. Karadzic was aware of
24 my aversion to active involvement in politics and because there were other
25 people who were involved whom Dr. Karadzic had known better and for
2 Paragraph 14: "Until late September/early October 1990, I was not
3 in any sense active in SDS politics. I did not attend a single SDS
4 election rally prior to the November 1990 elections. Specifically, I did
5 not attend rallies in any municipalities of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
6 including Sanski Most. Dr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, and Koljevic did
7 attend those rallies. The only political meeting I attended was in my
8 native community when the SDS candidates for parliament for Sarajevo were
9 being introduced to the voters."
10 And, Mr. Krajisnik, again I think you may have some changes to
11 that paragraph.
12 A. After Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, the words "and others" should
13 be added.
14 Q. Is that the only change to that paragraph?
15 A. After Sanski Most the following words should be added, which was
16 stated by one of the Prosecution witnesses.
17 Q. What are the words, Mr. Krajisnik?
18 A. Including the municipality of Sanski Most, behind that the
19 following should be added: "Which was stated by a Prosecution witness,"
20 meaning Sanski Most, that I attended an election rally in Sanski Most.
21 Q. Yes. Under -- well, clear, as a matter of language surprising.
22 Thank you.
23 Paragraph 15: "I joined the SDS as a regular member, as many
24 Serbs did who saw the SDS as the only legitimate Serb political movement,
25 in response to the formation of the Muslim and Croat nationalist parties,
1 the SDA and HDZ, respectively. I had intended to devote myself to my
2 business responsibilities at TAT, where I enjoyed widespread support among
3 employees after my exoneration. I wanted to do my best for the enterprise
4 as a gesture of appreciation to the workers who stood behind me when I had
5 been charged and put on trial with Dr. Karadzic and others in 1985 and
6 finally acquitted about four years later."
7 Just to clarify, Mr. Krajisnik, when you talk about support among
8 employees after your exoneration, you are referring to that point in the
9 next sentence, are you, your eventual acquittal?
10 A. Yes. In 1984 proceedings were initiated. I was suspended from my
11 job, and towards the end of 1989 I was returned to the same job thanks to
12 the workers. And then I owed them, in a way.
13 Q. Then paragraph 16: "I also wanted to devote myself to my family
14 and sick wife."
15 Paragraph 17: "I first became actively engaged in politics
16 sometime in 1990 when I was asked by the SDS main office, not
17 Dr. Karadzic, to appear as an SDS spokesman in a Radio Sarajevo programme
18 to explain to listeners the SDS economic programme. Each political party,
19 SDA, SDS, and HDZ, was to have a representative on the programme. The
20 caller explained that the person originally scheduled to appear had pulled
21 out due to cold feet for fear of losing his job if he raised his political
22 profile. I accepted on the condition that I never be asked to perform a
23 similar favour again. Dr. Karadzic was unaware of my being asked to
24 appear on the programme."
25 Mr. Krajisnik, you may have changes, I think, to that paragraph.
1 A. In the second line. After the words that are under quotation
2 marks "SDS headquarters," the following words should be added: "I do not
3 remember who called me."
4 And finally at the end in the brackets where it says: "In order
5 to appear in the programme," the following words should be added: "At
6 least that's what I think," meaning that I did not know whether
7 Dr. Karadzic was unaware or not but I thought that he was unaware.
8 Q. Then paragraph 18: "A short time after that radio show, there was
9 another similar call asking me to appear on TV. The caller was Aleksa
10 Buha, whom I did not know at the time. Buha asked me to speak on the same
11 topics on television. I reiterated the condition under which I had agreed
12 to appear on Radio Sarajevo. Buha said that the organisers of the TV
13 debate had failed utterly and that the party were desperate to have a
14 competent spokesman to explain their position. I agreed because I did not
15 want the SDS to be unrepresented in the economic debate but said that this
16 would really be my last appearance. In fact, the SDS did not have much of
17 an economic programme and I mostly articulated my own views on the need
18 for privatisation and other reforms."
19 Paragraph 19: "After that TV show, Mr. Buha called me again
20 asking me to make another television appearance. This time I resolutely
21 refused his request on the grounds of our last agreement that the last
22 appearance would really be the last one and that I had a forthcoming
23 business trip on behalf of my company. While on my business trip, I
24 watched the TV programme that I had been asked to participate in, and to
25 my surprise there was an empty chair where the SDS representative should
1 have been sitting, which I felt guilty about."
2 Mr. Krajisnik, I think you may have changes to that paragraph.
3 A. Line 3. When it says "categorically" here -- or
4 rather, "resolutely," I think that should be deleted.
5 And this business trip to Trebinje. It was to Trebinje that I
6 went to. So I think that should be added, "to Trebinje."
7 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 20: "Upon my return to Sarajevo, I called
8 the SDS main office and spoke to Mr. Buha. He told me that the original
9 economic spokesman was still too frightened to appear. I felt bad about
10 this and told Mr. Buha that if ever the party needed someone to explain
11 its economic position they could count on me. After that, I was called
12 upon to be a guest in two or three TV debates."
13 21: "About a month before the elections, I was called by the
14 municipal committee of the SDS for Novi Grad, the most densely populated
15 district of Sarajevo. I attended a meeting that evening which turned out
16 to be the first meeting of the district SDS committee. There was a great
17 deal of dissension among those present and some heavy criticisms from the
18 representative of the SDS Main Board. I asked for the floor and addressed
19 those present with some conciliatory words which helped to reduce
20 tensions. To my surprise, at the end of the meeting Glavonjic took the
21 floor and proposed that he resign and that I replace him."
22 Mr. Krajisnik, you may have a change to that paragraph, I think?
23 A. After the word "chairman" it should be said is that this is the
24 chairman of the initiative board of the Serb Democratic Party of the
25 municipality of Novi Grad.
1 Q. And then paragraph 22: "I wholeheartedly rejected this suggestion
2 and it failed. I did not hear it at the time but later learned that
3 Glavonjic had said that it would be reconsidered at the following
5 It's not clear to me, Mr. Krajisnik, whether you have any change
6 to that paragraph. Do you or not?
7 A. There is no need to amend this paragraph.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 23: "At the next meeting a day or two later, Glavonjic reiterated
10 his proposal. I was still firmly opposed to entering into politics.
11 After the meeting, I nevertheless consulted my wife and parents. As fate
12 would have it, the political fever was infecting most BiH citizens,
13 including my own family. Political broadcasts became the subject of
14 widespread interest which the public was following intensely. Neither my
15 wife nor parents opposed the idea. They left it up to me to decide."
16 Mr. Krajisnik, I think you will have a change?
17 A. After the words "wife and parents," the following text should be
18 added: "Whom I had promised that I would not become politically involved,
19 and if the situation would make it incumbent upon me to do that I would
20 ask for their consent regarding that decision of mine."
21 Q. Paragraph 24: "At the next SDS district meeting, approximately
22 one month before the November 1990 elections, Velibor Ostojic was in
23 attendance. I did not know Ostojic before then. Ostojic spoke calmly and
24 kept control of the meeting. He said that his mission was to make sure
25 that a local SDS chairman was elected. The consensus of those present was
1 that it should be me. I kept declining and even pointed out that I had
2 spent time in prison, which might damage the party's reputation. Instead
3 of concern, those present welcomed that fact and said that was a plus,
4 because it showed that I was a dissident who had been persecuted by the
5 communist regime."
6 Mr. Krajisnik, do you have changes to that paragraph?
7 A. I would like two amendments to be made. After the words in the --
8 in line 4, "control of the meeting," the following words should be
9 added: "As opposed to his predecessor." And at the end of this paragraph
10 the following text: "That is how I became the chairman of the initiative
11 committee of the municipality of Novi Grad" -- or rather: "The initiative
12 committee of the SDS of the municipality of Novi Grad for the period up to
13 the elections."
14 Q. Those are all the changes to that paragraph, are they,
15 Mr. Krajisnik? Well, you've waved --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You have to say yes. Thank you.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Paragraph 25: "Soon thereafter, the issue of candidates for the
20 two chambers of BiH legislature arose, the Chamber of municipalities and
21 the chamber of citizens. Since the chamber of municipalities candidate
22 had scant chances of electoral success because of the local ethnic
23 composition, which was only 27 per cent Serb, there was not much
24 competition for that candidacy, but disagreements did arise once
25 candidates for the other chamber came up for discussion. There were two
1 factions, one promoting myself and the other some other candidate. I
2 refused to stand and nominated somebody else. Views became polarised. My
3 suggestion that they should focus on nominating a good candidate for a
4 leading post in the Sarajevo municipal government did not ease the
5 tension. In order to calm passions, I finally agreed to be a candidate on
6 the metropolitan level. Unkovic was the first candidate, while I was his
7 running mate in the number two spot who did not have much chance of
9 Mr. Krajisnik, I think you may have changes for that paragraph.
10 A. Line 4, there was not much commotion. I think the
11 word "commotion" should be replaced with the word "discussion"
12 or "debate."
13 In the next line after that where it says one of them supported
14 me, it should read "supported my nomination." And after that where it
15 says: "The executive authorities of the Sarajevo municipality," it should
16 read: "The executive authority of the City Assembly." There is a
17 difference between the municipality and the Municipal Assembly or the City
19 Q. Yes. Can we clarify, Mr. Krajisnik, the -- what would -- for the
20 purposes of the English, apart from anything else, you said that in line 4
21 of your text that the word "commotion" should be replaced with the
22 word "discussion or "debate." What we have in English, I think that's the
23 passage you're talking about, was: "There was not much competition for
24 that candidacy." Are you saying that it should read: "There was not much
25 discussion," to choose one word, "there was not much discussion about that
1 candidacy but disagreements did arise."
2 Is that what you're saying?
3 A. That explanation in English sounds correct. There was no
4 competition and there was no great debate.
5 Q. I feel confident we can tidy that up, Mr. Krajisnik. Thank you.
6 Paragraph 26, therefor: "The two-candidate formula that was
7 agreed to was sent to the city SDS committee for approval. Throughout
8 this time I had no dealings with Dr. Karadzic or any other city committee
9 functionary. I have no idea who moved for my name to be placed on the
10 Sarajevo electoral list. Nobody had ever explained that to me.
11 In the end, my name was number six on the overall SDS list of candidates."
12 27: "In November 1990, I was on the list of deputies from the
13 Sarajevo region. I did not participate in a single pre-election rally
14 except for the one in my own village or town where I lived, Rajlovac, as
15 well as the final convention when all deputies' candidates for Sarajevo
16 gathered in the Vasa Pelagic Hall in Sarajevo. I also participated in one
17 radio show as well as about four TV broadcasts."
18 28: "In the first electoral round, the SDS gained five seats in
19 Sarajevo, which means that I was not elected. I made it subsequently when
20 electoral results were assessed according to a formula and parties which
21 failed to gain a minimum of votes were eliminated from consideration. In
22 that redistribution, the SDS gained an additional seat and that is how I
23 was elected."
24 29: "After the elections, the victorious parties divided up
25 political spoils and the post of president of parliament was allocated to
1 SDS. SDS was promoting the candidacy of Milan Trbojevic for that post. I
2 was present while Dr. Karadzic and Trbojevic were discussing it and was
3 aware that that was party policy. Dr. Karadzic conveyed that decision to
4 Trbojevic and Trbojevic accepted that position."
5 It's slightly ambiguous in English, Mr. Krajisnik. It's -- the
6 sense in Serbian must be - is this right - that Mr. Trbojevic accepted the
7 situation as Dr. Karadzic reported it to him?
8 A. Mr. Karadzic offered to Mr. Trbojevic the candidacy for the post
9 of Speaker of parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Mr. Trbojevic
10 accepted it. It should have been a done deal, at least that's what I
11 understood at that meeting between the two of them which I attended.
12 Q. I think I choose the position there, Mr. Krajisnik. I'm going to
13 move on.
14 Number 30: "I became a candidate for the chairman of the
15 Executive Committee of SDS for the city of Sarajevo. This time I did want
16 the position and accepted it willingly. I wanted to use it to help my
17 native communities of Zabrdje and Rajlovac which were rather neglected in
18 their development in spite of their central location within the
19 metropolitan area. No one told me that I was going to become candidate
20 for Speaker of the Assembly."
21 31: "Dr. Karadzic was pushing for a Sarajevo candidate and spoke
22 out strongly in favour of Mr. Trbojevic. When Trbojevic's candidacy
23 failed, a call was put through to me at home to attend an expanded meeting
24 of the Deputies' Club."
25 32: "Due to a misunderstanding with Mr. Ostojic, I barged into
1 the session of the SDS Executive Committee and then angrily returned home.
2 When I reached home again, I found a message asking me to return
3 immediately to the meeting I had just left."
4 33: "They directed me to the meeting of the Deputies' Club and I
5 found them engaged in a fierce debate about who should be the party
6 candidate for parliament president. Members of the SDS city committee
7 were rebelled against the official choice for parliament president. They
8 objected that Mr. Trbojevic would be just another Sarajevo man in high
9 office and that this would be unfair to the Krajina region since most
10 candidates had a Sarajevo background. There was an influential group of
11 deputies that demanded that Mr. Trbojevic's candidacy be rejected and that
12 he be replaced by a candidate from Krajina (i.e. a 'Krajisnik')."
13 Is there a change that you wish to make to that paragraph,
14 Mr. Krajisnik?
15 A. An addition should be made after the word "Sarajevo background,"
16 "on which point I think the deputies were right." That should be the
18 Q. 34: "I knew hardly any of those present except for Radovan
19 Karadzic. Dr. Karadzic came in and asked for the floor. He said - and
20 this is almost verbatim: 'Some of you want our candidate to be a Sarajevo
21 man, others want a Krajisnik, so I now give you a Krajisnik from
22 Sarajevo.' The deputies were perplexed and they started asking what my
23 name was. That is how I came to be elected, because of my surname and
24 place of residence."
25 Is there any change you wish to make to that paragraph,
1 Mr. Krajisnik?
2 A. After "Dr. Karadzic," I assumed there was someone else as well and
3 perhaps somebody else as well. I have -- I only saw Karadzic, but I
4 assume there was somebody else in addition to him.
5 Q. Where -- perhaps you could try and be precise about what words you
6 would wish to go into that paragraph and where, Mr. Krajisnik.
7 A. Line 1 should read: "I knew none of those present except for
8 Radovan Karadzic and maybe one other person who rose and asked for the
10 So the addition is actually: "And maybe one other person." I
11 knew very few people, but it wouldn't be true to say it was only Radovan
13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you wish to leave in or take out the short
14 second sentence: "Dr. Karadzic came in and asked for the floor."
15 A. No. I only wish to say this: "Except for Radovan Karadzic and
16 one other person who came in and asked for the floor."
17 Q. 35: "Before that, no one, including Dr. Karadzic, talked to me
18 about this candidacy. That was a complete surprise for me, and I had no
19 ready response. I was elected first candidate to the post and then
20 president of BiH parliament."
21 Do you have some change to that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?
22 A. I had, but I gave up on that.
23 Q. The translation was "give up." You're positive you do not wish to
24 make any change?
25 A. I give up on the correction that I had indicated earlier.
1 Q. Paragraph 36: "Although the original plan was for me to be
2 elected member of the SDS city executive committee, I ended up president
3 of parliament without having played any role in the process. I formally
4 became parliament president at that body's session in November 1990."
5 Any change to that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?
6 A. Two changes, actually. In line 1: "Although the initial plan,"
7 instead of "original plan." And in the penultimate line -- sorry, line 2.
8 Instead of: "Member of the Executive Committee," it should
9 be: "President of the Executive Committee."
10 Q. 37: "I did not participate in the creation of the SDS at the BiH
11 level. Although I was then president of the Zabrdje SSRN (Socialist
12 Alliance of the Working People), I did take part in forming the local SDS
13 in Zabrdje and Smiljevic (two small communities) and I announced that my
14 mandate was about to expire due to the creation of the multi-party system
15 and the first multi-party elections. During this farewell meeting, it was
16 suggested to those assembled to express their views as to which party they
17 wanted to see formed. The people of Zabrdje and Smiljevic decided to
18 choose a party by voting. Due to the fact that almost 100 per cent of the
19 inhabitants of these two communities were Serbs, they opted for the SDS.
20 That party then became embraced as the movement of the Serbian people.
21 The decision was adopted after the SDS was formed on July 12, 1990. I do
22 not recall the precise date, but it must have been shortly thereafter."
23 Do you have any change to that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?
24 A. Yes. Behind the part of the sentence where it says: "Due to the
25 fact that almost 100 per cent of the inhabitants of these two communities
1 were Serbs," that should be corrected. Not all the people from Smiljevici
2 and Zabrdje were Serbs, but all the people or almost all the people at
3 that meeting, at that rally, were Serbs. That was the meaning.
4 Q. 38: "Citizens didn't elect the president of the organising
5 committee but, rather, asked me to set up another meeting, which I did,
6 thus helping them to form the Zabrdje branch of SDS. I was then invited
7 to take part in the work of the organising committee for the Sarajevo
8 municipality Novi Grad. I learned subsequently that the reason for this
9 invitation was the result of a disagreement in the Novi Grad SDS Municipal
10 Board. The parties in dispute literally forced me to accept the position
11 of the organising committee Presidency and to remain in this position
12 until the next elections, which I did. During my mandate, I didn't have
13 contacts with the party leadership. I didn't wish to get involved
14 politically, nor did anybody invite me to do so. What occurred was but a
15 conjunction of circumstances."
16 39: "Since the circumstances were different, I did take part in
17 SDS electoral preparations in Novi Grad. I was granted a special status
18 and treatment by members of the SDS Board because I was extremely busy
19 with work at my firm and because of my wife's illness. For those reasons
20 I was not involved to any great extent in the preparations that lasted for
21 about a month."
22 "After the signing of the Dayton Agreement, I headed the
23 commission for its implementation on the Serbian side.
24 "From 1996 to 1998 I was elected member of the Presidency
25 representing the Republika Srpska. In order to become a candidate for
1 this position, I was subjected to all of the checks deemed necessary by
2 international supervisors."
3 We're talking there, aren't we, Mr. Krajisnik, of the
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. 42: "While a member of the Presidency, I met with numerous
7 international representatives, including presidents of the most
8 influential countries in the world (former Prime Minister John Major,
9 Prime Minister Tony Blair, former President Bill Clinton, President Kohl,
10 President Jacques Chirac, Russian Prime Minister Chernomirdin, et cetera."
11 Paragraph 43: "After 1998 and until my arrest in 2000, I was in
12 private business.
13 44: "I was arrested on the 3rd of April, 2000 on the basis of a
14 sealed indictment."
15 The statement stops there, Mr. Krajisnik, and you have -- you were
16 brought straight away to The Hague and you have been detained here in the
17 United Nations Detention Unit ever since April of 2000. That's correct,
18 isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Mr. Krajisnik.
21 Your Honours, the sensible course seems to be for us to have that
22 typed up to reflect Mr. Krajisnik's changes. And then, if we may, when
23 that's done then give it back to him in that typed up form and then he
24 could, assuming he is then happy with all those amendments, he could then
25 sign that typed up version. Would that suit Your Honours and --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that seems to be a reasonable course to follow.
2 So therefore you -- you will produce an amended version now in accordance
3 with the amendments made.
4 Mr. Krajisnik, the translation will be prepared and we'll finally
5 ask Mr. Krajisnik to sign that copy. Apart from that, it is already on
6 the record because it has been read out.
7 MR. STEWART: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So even without signing the same would be true and it
9 could be admitted into evidence.
10 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We're not trying to --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Even if one could wonder whether it's necessary at
12 all, since all the words have been read and all the amendments. But
13 perhaps it's good to have a document which reflects the original text and
14 all the amendments made by Mr. Krajisnik.
15 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour. It would seem to be
16 good practice.
17 Your Honour, since I -- well, I believe it's going to be necessary
18 to have a break between when we came back and when we finish. Would Your
19 Honours think this was the right point to have it?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the matter is whether we need another break.
21 I'm looking at the technicians and the interpreters. Because we had a
22 break 40 minutes relatively early. Then although I announced 15 minutes'
23 break, that took a little bit over half an hour, and as far as the tapes
24 are concerned, I think we could continue until quarter to 2.00.
25 MR. STEWART: May I remind Your Honour that we have all been here
1 all that time, that during what may have been a break actually most of the
2 people have actually been here all that time. I don't want to appear to
3 be weedy about it, Your Honour, but again it's the same point, both
4 Mr. Krajisnik and my team. The interpreters are entitled to their breaks,
5 but everybody will have gone a very long time by quarter to 2.00.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the first break was not 37 minutes but 47
7 minutes finally, upon your request, the second break was announced for 15
8 minutes. That makes a total of one hour and two minutes, which is more
9 than usual during the morning. I do understand that you are busy during
10 the breaks, where the -- I'll consult with my colleagues.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: The total of the breaks this morning will be one hour
13 and 12 minutes. We'll have a break of ten minutes.
14 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 --- Recess taken at 1.07 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.24 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.
18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you recall that in May 1991 you were invited on
20 to a television programme in Sarajevo called Club 91?
21 A. I recall that.
22 Q. And that -- it was a one-to-one interview of you as the president
23 of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina for quite a long time, an hour
24 and a half, something like that, political interview. Is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
2 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Krajisnik.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, we have -- we've got a DVD of the
4 interview. We aren't for one moment suggesting that we play it for an
5 hour and a half. What we are proposing to do, Your Honour, is to play it
6 for just a very few minutes so that Your Honours can see it, can get the
7 flavour, and then of course we have the transcripts.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We have transcripts. You prepared transcripts of
9 those portions or ...
10 MR. STEWART: Of the whole programme.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll play only smaller portions. And I
14 take it --
15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I wasn't even going to ask, but
16 of course I'm in the -- if the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution -- the
17 Prosecution have submissions or the Trial Chamber, I wasn't going to ask
18 even to play the portions that I wish to refer to. The Defence's position
19 is that it would be quite adequate for Your Honours just to see the first
20 few minutes, to see the format, the flavour, because it doesn't really
21 change, Your Honour, the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course the -- if the Prosecution would
23 be of a different opinion, then of course if the atmosphere of the flavour
24 would be different than any other portions, they are free to play
25 whatever --
1 MR. STEWART: We have no resistance whatever, Your Honour, to
2 other parts being played if anybody -- but we do not propose that that's
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.
5 [Videotape played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]: "Dear viewers, good evening. This
7 is Club 91 and, as you have heard, our guest this evening is Momcilo
8 Krajisnik, president of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Welcome
9 and thank you for coming to Club 91. You have a masters degree but we
10 rarely hear about it. You have a masters in economic sciences. Is that
12 "Krajisnik: Yes.
13 "Presenter: You are a man who started his career in Energoinvest
14 where you worked for many years?
15 "Krajisnik: Yes.
16 "Presenter: "An Energoinvest man, old and loyal, I would say ...
18 "Krajisnik: Yes, both a loyal and old Energoinvest man.
19 "Presenter: You were not involved in politics before, at least
20 not in a very active way. Or were you?
21 "Krajisnik: Well, if you discount that I was a member of the
22 Socialist Alliance, an Assemblyman in the City Assembly, I was not
23 particularly involved in politics until this election as deputy in the
24 republican Assembly.
25 "Presenter: And now you are president of the Assembly of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina, at this time. Tell me, what was your personal motivation
2 in accepting this exceptionally responsible and difficult post in these
3 difficult times?
4 "Krajisnik: Well, this is probably difficult to explain. It is
5 more to do with man and his nature, and I wanted in these difficult
6 moments to be a member of my people. And as things turned out, I wanted
7 to be only a member of the Serbian Democratic Party and simply to
8 participate as a human being as much as I would be able to help. And then
9 one thing happened after another, and I didn't want to be a deputy and
10 especially not the president of the Assembly, and everything happened more
11 or less suddenly and more or less against my will. But that is the kind
12 of man I am. So when I am committed to something and when I am elected by
13 someone, or when they show me confidence, then I want to justify that.
14 "Presenter: You are one of those republican officials who, it
15 seems to me, as far as I have contact with people and information about
16 that, who has been accepted by the public with quite a lot of
17 understanding and sympathy. And in that respect I think that there are no
18 particular national divisions about you. I think that your reputation has
19 been growing with the number of sessions that are broadcast which often
20 confuse the public, but few people refrain from complimenting you on your
21 patience in chairing these sessions. I am trying actually to ask you
22 this: Should the parliament look the way it looks? Is the criticism
23 justified that their discussions, not to say arguments conducted there are
24 pointless, or that that is simply a type of parliamentary debate that we
25 are not used to and which possibly prevails everywhere in democracy?"
1 "Krajisnik: Well, as regards your assessments" --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could a number be assigned?
3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D177.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That would be for the video. And D177A for the
5 B/C/S -- do we have a B/C/S transcript?
6 MR. STEWART: Yes, we do, Your Honour. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D177A for the original B/C/S transcript and
8 D177A.1 for the English translation.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, two minor matters or practical matters.
11 The transcript in English that Your Honours have, it does occasionally say
12 on it, there's an example at the very top of page 2: "Handwritten note in
13 the margin of the last paragraph in English: Election as deputy and
14 President of Assembly."
15 Do Your Honours see that?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the explanation of that is that this
18 was submitted for translation by our case manager who had made some
19 relatively modest notes on the document. So of course in the entirely
20 proper way the translation service translated -- if it doesn't move,
21 translate it, they translated everything. Your Honour, there are --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that the -- the copies you would provide to
23 the registrar, that this will be taken out, perhaps by a marker or
24 something like that. And then -- then you provide a B/C/S original
25 without these comments as well. And I don't think that there's any need
1 that it will be reproduced seven or six times. It's clear to us now that
2 whatever refers to any handwriting is work product which should not be
4 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour, that's very practical.
5 Your Honour is absolutely right, it is very clear actually where these
6 notes come up, and they're actually pretty harmless, it seems, but we
7 didn't want to be hiding them.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The registrar has not received yet the B/C/S
9 copy. Could it be provided to him later today or at this very moment?
10 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, we've got -- subject to any
11 photocopying difficulties in the back there, we can do that. No problem
12 at all.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
14 Mr. Registrar, you will be provided with D177A in B/C/S today.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've done one other practical thing,
17 which we hope will have the Trial Chamber's approval, which we propose to
18 adopt quite frequently. In order, as quickly as possible, to go to the
19 relevant passage in the B/C/S version when I'm examining from the English
20 version, I have taken the liberty of numbering, and for my own private
21 purposes I do it on my copy, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and
22 so on, the points which I'm going to go to, and so the B/C/S has just
23 numbers, Your Honour, at those points in the text in the margin with no
24 other comment, no other marking, just the number, so I that I would, for
25 example, say to Mr. Krajisnik: Can you find number 1 in the margin? And
1 that will take us quickly to that passage.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would then refer to us so that we can
3 add on our own copies in order to better be able to follow.
4 MR. STEWART: Of course.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And finally, for -- if it would ever come to that
6 point, if ever an Appeals Chamber would have to consider this evidence, I
7 would like you to add those numbers on the originals but not asking for
8 any further translation, though that's handwriting, but that should
10 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So that we have one copy and that it's easy for
12 everyone to identify the portions on which questions are put.
13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, in practice it becomes
14 increasingly difficult to find copies without the numbers as time goes on,
15 so they --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That used to be a very handy instrument to get
17 rid of.
18 MR. STEWART: Yes. We will follow Your Honour's proposal there.
19 What I'm not a hundred per cent sure about now, Mr. Krajisnik, is
20 whether you have in fact got with you in the witness box that B/C/S
21 transcript with those numbers?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have them, Mr. Krajisnik? Yes, Mr. Krajisnik
23 is nodding yes.
24 Yes, Mr. Stewart.
25 MR. STEWART: Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if the system is working you should be able to find
2 the number 3 in the margin quite early on -- I'm sorry, the number 1, I
3 beg your pardon, a simple system, in the margin. You're nodding. You've
4 found that, have you?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the --
7 JUDGE ORIE: And then for us, Mr. Stewart.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, yes, indeed, straight away. It's
9 page 3 of the English, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. STEWART: And it's the first answer by Mr. Krajisnik right in
12 the middle of the page: "There will probably be viewers ..."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. STEWART:
15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do stop me straight away if you're not immediately
16 following exactly where we are in the -- in the text. But I don't think
17 it will be a problem for you.
18 So short question from the presenter. It says: "You came to this
19 post as a member of the SDS. It should and do you feel like the president
20 of the Assembly ... of all deputies?"
21 And then your answer, which I will read, Mr. Krajisnik: "There
22 will probably be viewers who will not believe that I truly feel ... not
23 that I am the president for everyone but that I do everything as if I am
24 the president for every citizen in this Bosnia and Herzegovina of ours, in
25 fact our Bosnia-Herzegovina people. That is to say, my activities are
1 that I do not want to do anything that is particularly against the
2 interests of any people. Because according to any principle, moral,
3 according to ... as our people say, according to local custom, to do an
4 injustice, that is, that is an evil which can feed only the person who
5 really in their sound like does not feel what it means to do an injustice
6 and what it means to have an injustice done to him. I therefore think
7 that a man cannot do the job of the president of the Assembly and be at
8 any post, any post in Bosnia and Herzegovina, if he does not eliminate
9 everything that is party-based and do his utmost," that's a misprint in
10 the English, Your Honours, it's got to be the single word: "Utmost
11 objectively for all the peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
12 And then we get one of those handwritten notes which should come
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. STEWART:
16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in particular there your expression that: "A man
17 cannot do the job of the president of the Assembly and be in any post, any
18 post in Bosnia and Herzegovina, if he does not eliminate everything that
19 is party-based," did this approach, as you have described it there --
20 first of all, did that genuinely represent your position?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did that position of yours, as you described it there, gain
23 support from your SDS colleagues?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then do you see the number 2, just further down, further along?
1 It should be very shortly after the number 1. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Stewart?
4 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE ORIE: For us where do we find number 2.
6 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's Krajisnik: "I'm of the opinion that at
7 all times" -- I'm not always going to read the question, Your Honour,
8 because it doesn't always help to do that and it speeds things along.
9 "I am of the opinion that at all times my position as president
10 of the Assembly must be clearly on the table, for any deputy to assess it
11 and can give an objective opinion about it to see if I am working in a
12 good way objectively, if I am president for everyone and so on ... Thus,
13 at that moment and in the future, I would never want to be president of
14 the Assembly if one of the partners primarily, was against, or if such
15 a ... such hostility was created, with the criticism that I am not working
16 in the way that God demands, is that right ... as for quality, I think,
17 that at all times there should be an interest in the party itself that
18 that be done by the person who knows how to do it the best. As for bias,
19 everyone must decide on that. It is very ruinous in this democracy if we
20 have in posts, any post in Bosnia and Herzegovina, people who think that
21 it is solely their aim to protect their people through the party,
22 exclusively without paying attention to some objective circumstances --
23 what is possible and what is just..."
24 And then there is another handwritten note that comes out.
25 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, when you say about six or seven lines
1 into that answer you say: "I would never want to be president of the
2 Assembly if one of the partners primarily was against ..."
3 In referring to "the partners," who were you meaning?
4 A. Here I am primarily referring to the SDA and the HDZ, because I
5 believe that the opposition can be against things even if I'm working
6 properly. Because it is in the interest of the opposition to topple the
8 Q. And when you say -- further on in the same answer you say: "It is
9 very ruinous in this democracy if we have in posts any posts in Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina people who think that it is solely their aim to protect their
12 First of all, did you have in mind any particular people who did
13 at that time, in your view, think it was solely their aim to protect their
15 A. At that time, as a rule, the representative of a party that was in
16 government would think that it is in his interest only to protect the
17 interests of his own people, his own ethnic group, not of all. But he
18 actually represents all the peoples, the Serbs, the Croats, the Muslims.
19 What I meant here was that it would be ruinous if somebody were to be a
20 candidate on behalf of the SDS or the HDZ or the SDA and protect only the
21 interests of that people or that party. Everyone should do their job
22 properly, and in that way they will protect the interests of all.
23 Q. Within your own party, the SDS, were there people who, in your
24 view at that time, thought it was solely their aim to protect their
25 people, the Serbs?
1 A. That question, in a way, requires a more extensive answer, perhaps
2 because it's somewhat equivocal. Every representative of the SDS thought
3 that it was the Serb people who should be protected, but the SDA protected
4 the Muslim people, the HDZ the Croatian people. However, in the SDS there
5 were some extreme phenomena, if I can put it that way. Let things be good
6 for the Serbs and let the others fare for themselves, but these people
7 were a minority. The absolute majority supported the line that I
8 advocated and that is referred to here.
9 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are close to quarter to 2.00.
11 Mr. Krajisnik, we'll finish for the day. I instruct you, as every
12 other witness, not to -- you could perhaps even speak the words yourself,
13 not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have given today and
14 you're still about to give, not the coming days but the coming weeks. So
15 that's the instruction, and we'd like to see you back then of course
16 tomorrow morning in this same courtroom at 9.00.
17 We'll adjourn for the day.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of
20 April, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.