Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23104

1 Thursday, 27 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [Mr. Krajisnik enters court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 There are a few procedural matters which can be dealt with right

11 away in your presence, Mr. Krajisnik, now -- I've not reminded you yet as

12 a witness to the solemn declaration, so at this moment you're still the

13 accused and not the witness in your case.

14 First of all, the Judges would decide on whether they would agree

15 with the alternative option for contacting your counsel not by letter but

16 by raising the matter in open court. Of course, as an alternative option,

17 I mean, if you'd like to do it by letter, that's still possible. We have

18 taken notice of the concerns of communication with counsel; we'll take

19 care of that. And we did not understand that there would be any objection

20 from the Prosecution. There is not, so therefore as an alternative

21 option, you are allowed to do so. I even was informed that your first

22 application would be made soon, perhaps even very soon.

23 But before we allow you to make such an application, there is

24 another matter, which is P1135.

25 We do understand, Mr. Josse, that you have agreed that the whole

Page 23105

1 of that document could be admitted into evidence but that you'd like to

2 clearly have on the record that it is without prejudice to the -- to the

3 position of the Defence on a similar point in the future. That's on the

4 record now.

5 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And, therefore, P1135 is now in its entirety admitted

7 into evidence.

8 As far as D171 and 173 is concerned, later today an opportunity

9 will be given to briefly and in private session address the request to

10 have these two exhibits admitted under seal.

11 Then as far as D146 is concerned, the minutes of the 77th Session

12 of the Bosnian Presidency, it was tendered on the 16th of March and the

13 English translation was received on the 26th of April. If the Prosecution

14 would have taken already a position as far as whether it should be

15 objected or not, I'd like to hear; if not, the Chamber would like to hear

16 that by next Monday. Yes.

17 And I always make mistakes by using the word "next." The Monday

18 to come after this weekend.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think that -- if I'm not mistaken,

20 that may be a holiday.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, you're right. I'm not -- yes. It's good

22 that foreigners remind me that on the 1st of May we celebrate the birthday

23 of our Queen, although it's not the day of her birthday. It was, just for

24 your information, inherited from her mother who celebrated her birthday on

25 the 31st of April. Then that will then be Tuesday, Mr. Tieger.

Page 23106

1 D139, I do understand that the Defence was ordered on the 16th of

2 March to submit a CD and a B/C/S transcript by the 27th of March and that

3 an English transcript was finally provided on the 4th of April, that

4 filing -- for filing a deadline was set 28th of April and that you're now

5 ready to submit D139.

6 MR. JOSSE: I'm told that that's been done, I'm glad to say, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's in the hands of Mr. Registrar, and it's --

9 were there any objections? I don't remember. I think it was not

10 complete, but could we also hear by Tuesday whether there are any

11 objections against admission of D139.

12 Then I dealt with the procedural issues.

13 Mr. Krajisnik, now you are a witness again in your own case, and

14 as a witness I do understand that you wanted to raise an issue of contact

15 with -- contact with counsel. Of course then that would be

16 accused/counsel contact. You may address the Court.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to speak to my lawyer

18 briefly to consult about what I wish to present here in court and which is

19 not related to my testimony, not directly but indirectly. It has to do

20 with the information provided in the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina which is

21 not appropriate and which is damaging this trial, myself, and my family

22 terribly. So that's why I'm asking you this.

23 I know that I'm prohibited from talking to them or to anyone else.

24 I didn't know how to address the issue. I thought that I should speak to

25 him on this matter and then either I should address the Court or he should

Page 23107

1 address the Court. Perhaps I think it's better if Mr. Stewart addresses

2 the Court on that matter, if you allow me to consult him.

3 If that is not possible, I would like to ask you to allow me to

4 address you myself. I know what you said and I would like to abide by it

5 fully to honour what the usual practice is, and I want to exercise full

6 discipline.

7 Thank you.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Just for our better understanding, Mr. Krajisnik, do

10 I understand you well, and the Judges will consider your request during

11 the next break, but do I understand you well that when you talk about

12 information in the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina that it's information about

13 your testimony? Or do I not understand you well?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has to do with misinterpreting

15 what I said here before this Court, and that has been causing the wrong

16 kind of consequences in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's why I would like to

17 consult my lawyer. I think that what you said is right.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you say "what I said here in court," you

19 mean to refer to what you said as a witness in this courtroom?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no -- oh, yes, yes, as a

21 witness. Yesterday and the day before yesterday. I cannot remember the

22 days right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's perfectly clear. We'll consider the

24 matter over the next break and we come with a decision --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 23108

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- when possible.

2 Yes, Mr. Stewart.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm just wondering whether as

4 Mr. Krajisnik's counsel whether briefly I could make a comment before Your

5 Honours consider it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we suggest, although we're in Your

8 Honours' hands, we suggest that probably and based on past experience in

9 related matters, it probably would be helpful to the Trial Chamber and all

10 concerned if it were felt appropriate to allow Mr. Krajisnik to speak to

11 us first and just, if you like, sift and identify what the issue is, what

12 the channels of communication have been in relation to this matter,

13 because obviously Mr. Krajisnik has obtained this information from Bosnia.

14 We know nothing about that at the moment, Your Honour.

15 And also for the future, it may be that we can establish different

16 or other lines of communication which would help to smooth this issue.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I -- so what you would say, actually,

18 Mr. Stewart is that you would prefer that permission would be granted to

19 Mr. Krajisnik to speak about it rather than him addressing the Chamber on

20 the matter?

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that would seem likely --

22 JUDGE ORIE: That was your primary --

23 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. So we support that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it and most likely after the first

25 break give a decision.

Page 23109

1 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: But of course I can't promise anything because we

3 have to conclude our deliberations on the matter, but we'll try to do our

4 utmost best.

5 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, this is the moment that I'm going to remind

6 you, as I did, as you may have noticed, with all witnesses, I'm going to

7 remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration given at the

8 beginning of your testimony.

9 And, Mr. Stewart, I don't know whether it's you or whether it's

10 Mr. Josse, who will continue.

11 MR. JOSSE: I'm simply going to deal with one other intercept,

12 Your Honour, which follows on from the one that was dealt with yesterday

13 afternoon.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Josse.

15 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

16 Your Honour, I'm going to deal with what is P396, an intercept

17 that was dealt with during the evidence of Mr. Bjelobrk. It has been

18 played for the Court already. I do not intend to have it replayed now.

19 The interpreters have copies. I have some others here -- first of all,

20 could Mr. Krajisnik have one in his language. I don't know who else would

21 like a copy. I --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Two of the Judges have it and I have to -- yes --

24 MR. JOSSE: Well, here's one for you --

25 JUDGE ORIE: No, I've got it. I've got it.

Page 23110

1 MR. JOSSE: I notified the Chamber this morning that it was going

2 to be --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for that. We all have it in

4 front of us.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, yesterday you were dealing with the historical

9 agreement and the Belgrade Initiative. This was another conversation with

10 Mr. Karadzic on that subject.

11 In the English I would invite everyone to turn to the bottom of

12 page 2 where it says -- where Dr. Karadzic says: "Now they will, we will

13 have the initiative, they will have to explain to their people what they

14 want if they don't want this."

15 Mr. Krajisnik says: "Yes. What is it really, if they don't want

16 this, what do they want?"

17 Karadzic: "He wants to force Tudjman, so let's force Tudjman, we

18 don't mind."

19 Krajisnik: "Nobody is stopping him."

20 Karadzic: "We don't mind forcing Tudjman to accept this.

21 Krajisnik: "Yes.

22 Karadzic: "We will not force him.

23 Krajisnik: "So I said please. I fought for the republic to be

24 equal in the end. I stress I really took care not to break any regulation

25 from the agreement of the Muslims and the Serbs."

Page 23111

1 Two or three lines on then. Mr. Krajisnik: "I don't care about

2 the others, I said it deliberately. Not one ... Equal republic, integral

3 with the same status, I would not let Bosnia have a different status."

4 Firstly, is this a reference --

5 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. -- we, as we were requested to do,

6 brought our copy of P396. I notice that from what you're reading there

7 are some differences, I would say minor ones, but it seems as if we're

8 working from a different -- let me just see whether I have the --

9 MR. JOSSE: This is a constant problem, Your Honour. It's a

10 problem in relation to other documents. And Mr. Stewart and I came across

11 the same problem this morning in relation to a -- some Assembly sessions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you're quoting from an exhibit which was

13 admitted, then of course we'd like you to quote from that version of the

14 document.

15 I think as far as the portions read are concerned, there are no

16 major differences, apart from that where it reads: "And that we are all

17 treated the same," that the words "the same status is used. I would not

18 let Bosnia," here it says "be treated differently," and here I think you

19 just read "have a different status."

20 So there are minor -- I wouldn't say that -- one couldn't even say

21 that one contradicts the other, but the translation is phrased in a

22 different way.

23 Let's proceed for the time being because I don't think it really

24 affects your questions.

25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

Page 23112

1 Q. The extract that I have just read, Mr. Krajisnik, refers to what

2 negotiations, please?

3 A. These were the negotiations that were held in Belgrade and that

4 have to do with the Belgrade Initiative. They were relying upon the

5 historic agreement between the Serbs and Muslims. The Belgrade Initiative

6 came as a result of that.

7 Q. And what stance are you enunciating here to Dr. Karadzic?

8 A. I'm complaining, in a way, to Mr. Karadzic to the effect that

9 objections were raised against me because I was in favour of this

10 Belgrade Initiative, although I insisted that everything in this document

11 should be as envisaged in the historic agreement and that it should, in

12 fact, be incorporated in the Belgrade Initiative. I did not allow Bosnia

13 not to be equal, so I did everything that Mr. Zulfikarpasic and

14 Mr. Filipovic had asked for.

15 Q. And I want to ask you about one other passage a few lines further

16 down where there is some reference to Alija. Where Dr. Karadzic

17 says: "Maybe you fought more than Alija would."

18 You laugh and say: "I see it's" -- let me correct that. In the

19 version that I've very helpfully been provided by the registrar, the

20 English is: "Maybe you obtained more through the struggle than Alija

21 would have."

22 Your response is: "I see it's better to send me than Alija

23 because these Serbs think he would not ... I would not trick them. Well,

24 let it be, we want it honest, it doesn't matter."

25 Karadzic: "Yes, yes. I mean, now we can only be surprised and

Page 23113

1 they, like, they are aggressive. Let them be aggressive now, let their

2 people see what they, what they want, so do you people want, if you don't

3 want this."

4 What's being said there between the two of you, please?

5 A. Well, I was a lot younger then and my nerves or a lot better.

6 Even the most serious matters were things that I had a relaxed attitude

7 about.

8 See, even this serious matter here that perhaps I handled it

9 better than Alija would have, I even put that in a slightly humourous way,

10 but the point was that even had the late Alija Izetbegovic, who

11 advocated -- even if the late Alija Izetbegovic had participated in the

12 negotiations, he would not have advocated the Bosnian cause better. So

13 that was said my way of a joke, but the point was to say that I achieved

14 more than even Alija Izetbegovic would have achieved had he been at that

15 meeting. But the form is, well, sort of, I always wanted to talk to

16 people that way, not on the basis of tensions.

17 MR. JOSSE: That's all I want to ask on this topic, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

19 Mr. Stewart.

20 MR. STEWART: [Microphone not activated].

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to turn to the

23 Serb Assembly Session of the 24th of October, 1991. I think that

24 notification was given that this was an item that we would be going to

25 more or less straight away.

Page 23114

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have an exhibit number for that? I don't -- as

2 a matter of fact, I remember that we have supposed to bring the A and B

3 instructions. We were requested --

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, we gave advance notice of that, in effect, Your

5 Honour, because we don't expect actually to get to those today, but

6 that's --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but not the session -- you're now referring to

8 the 24th of October -- oh, that's perhaps the -- yes. I do understand

9 it's P64A, tab 270. I can at least find it on my computer.

10 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's right, Your Honour. Yes, that's the

11 correct document. That's the -- that's the one notified and it is the

12 right one. And, Your Honour, I've got in accordance with the practice

13 yesterday, I have a B/C/S copy with those similar marginal numbering notes

14 but no other notes.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please have copies.

16 Thank you.

17 MR. STEWART: Please have copies or have? Exactly the same, Your

18 Honour.

19 THE INTERPRETER: We have not received any documents.

20 MR. STEWART: I thought --

21 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth does not have a copy.

22 JUDGE ORIE: There's discrimination between the different

23 languages. I do understand.

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, if it could help, perhaps the

Page 23115

1 document could be placed on the ELMO. But as a rule three copies are

2 needed, one per each booth. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that one copy was provided.

4 MR. STEWART: Yes. I've got another copy, Your Honour. It

5 doesn't have that marginal numbering, but that shouldn't be a major

6 difficulty if we just get the page number as we go through.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or be put on the ELMO so that both booths would

8 have --

9 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we might be able to assist. We have

10 additional copies as well. They can be returned to us after they're used.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: If then perhaps an English version could be put on

13 the ELMO so the Judges have access to it on their screens, all of us,

14 unless there's another English copy available.

15 MR. STEWART: We can put the English on your screens, Your Honour,

16 through Mr. Sladojevic, in the way we did yesterday. The only remaining

17 question is whether anybody then needs the English on the ELMO.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think we would then need it and I -- okay.

19 Let's try to do that.

20 MR. STEWART: Yes. And one presses the middle left button on that

21 mini console, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

23 MR. STEWART: We seem to be in business, Your Honour. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 Examination by Mr. Stewart:

Page 23116

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you should have in front of you a copy in your own

2 language of a transcript of the Serb Assembly held on the 24th of October,

3 1991, and we're going to operate the -- broadly the same system as

4 yesterday with the marginal numbering. You're familiar with that by now.

5 Could you find number 1? It's only about three or four pages into

6 the document.

7 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honours, in the English it's on page 6

8 where Mr. Krajisnik is shown as starting to speak.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.


11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

12 "Ladies and gentlemen," and so on, you say.

13 "The club of Serbian representatives in the parliament of Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina gave me the honour to speak on their behalf. First of

15 all, I would like to inform the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16 the entire Serbian people everywhere, the citizens of Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, as well as the Yugoslav and world public, about the reasons

18 why the Serbian representatives in the parliament of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina have decided to establish the Assembly of Serbian people in

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina and about their rights and the significance and

21 tasks of this Assembly."

22 Mr. Krajisnik, just to put it in its context - and we've had lots

23 of evidence about it and I'm not going to explore the topic with you -

24 this of course followed a matter of nine days after the crisis in the

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly when the Serb deputies left the chamber,

Page 23117

1 didn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then you continue here: "The main reason lies in a serious

4 attempt to compromise the national sovereignty of the Serbian people in

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina and their constitutional and legal position in

6 Yugoslavia, which in turn compromises their survival in the territory of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, where they have lived from time immemorial."

8 Mr. Krajisnik, can we -- when you were saying "in turn compromises

9 their survival in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina," were you

10 intending that literally in the sense of their continuing to live and

11 exist in that territory?

12 A. It could not be taken literally, so it's not that literally. It

13 was used in a pejorative sense. I can even explain that if necessary.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm wondering if the word that came

15 across in the English translation was "pejorative." I only --

16 THE INTERPRETER: That was said in the B/C/S, notes the

17 interpreter, "pejorative."

18 JUDGE ORIE: From what my guess would be, if I compare to other

19 languages I know, it's saying things -- things being worse than they

20 actually are. "Peior" is Latin for worse, from what I remember.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm in a position to confirm that from

22 my own knowledge.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So if we understand it this way. I don't know

24 whether it's English which is usually --

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I did question it only because in

Page 23118

1 English it simply has the sense of being in some way insulting or -- so I

2 questioned it because it doesn't fit very well in English at all.

3 Mr. Harmon is nodding. We don't always agree linguistically across the

4 Atlantic, but here we do.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It would be good if you could ask Mr. Krajisnik to

6 clarify exactly what he meant when he used that word in B/C/S.

7 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, that's what I had in mind, Your Honour.

8 I didn't want to comment on it inappropriately.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps -- you weren't using it literally -- well,

10 in some sense then I'll put -- in some sense you were using it

11 figuratively. What in fact did you have in -- what were you intending to

12 convey?

13 A. When I said this sentence, I meant that the Serb people were a

14 constituent people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the three equal peoples of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina. If Bosnia-Herzegovina were to become a unitary state

16 and if we would accept for the Serb people not to be a constituent people,

17 then in fact they would turn into a minority, and then the survival of the

18 Serb people would be brought into question because you have certain rights

19 as a people, and when you are a national minority then you have less

20 rights.

21 When I use the word "pejorative," I was trying to say that I was

22 not speaking literally. It's not that everybody would not survive. I was

23 just trying to say that their rights would be jeopardised, that some of

24 their rights would be denied. That is what I meant, although "pejorative"

25 may mean something different in your language.

Page 23119

1 Q. Well, that's -- thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

2 The -- then further on -- I'm not going to read the whole of this

3 answer --

4 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honour, sometimes if I don't do that in

5 the interests of saving time, may I nevertheless particularly invite Your

6 Honours to -- to note that passage. This is Mr. Krajisnik speaking rather

7 than I simply taking the time to go through it?


9 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, then I pick it up again then. It's

10 page 8 in the English.

11 Q. But, Mr. Krajisnik, it's about three or four large paragraphs

12 further on where it says in the English: "At this point there is no need

13 to spend more time ..." Completely apposite phrase.

14 "At this point there is no need to spend more time on the

15 constitutional amendments ..."

16 Do you have that? You're nodding.

17 "At this point there is no need to spend more time on the

18 constitutional amendments which were adopted by the former parliament, in

19 collaboration with our partners in the government at the end of the

20 mandate. In one of those amendments, the inalienable sovereignty was

21 transferred from the people to the republic, which is contrary to the

22 federal constitution."

23 Now, what -- what did you have specifically in mind there,

24 Mr. Krajisnik, by talking of transfer from the people to the republic?

25 A. The constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You can see it. We have

Page 23120

1 it here as an exhibit from the Prosecution, and in this constitution it

2 says that sovereignty is at the level of the people -- the peoples,

3 Muslims, Croats, and Serbs. The amendments that were introduced at the

4 last moment divided this sovereignty. So it was at the level of the

5 republic, but in part it also belonged to the peoples. So the status of

6 the rights of the peoples deteriorated, not only the Serbs but all three.

7 So, in a way, it became debatable, if I can put it that way.

8 So that was done on the eve of the multi-party elections at the

9 last moment by the former Assembly of the Socialist Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. Then you continue in the next paragraph --

12 MR. STEWART: Again, Your Honours, I'm not going to read that

13 paragraph but simply invite Your Honours to note that as part of

14 Mr. Krajisnik's contribution.

15 Q. And then there's a paragraph, middle of page 9 of the English, you

16 begin: "In addition to all this ..."

17 Do you see that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "In addition to all this, the present structure of the parliament

20 of Bosnia and Herzegovina does not include a constitutional and legal

21 institution which would protect each of the three constituent peoples of

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina from being out-voted. True, in the essential

23 rights of the national groups, an amendment to the constitution of Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina of 1990 introduced the Council for National Equality,

25 which was to decide on such issues by a consensus. However, the Council

Page 23121

1 has not been established to this day. Although the draft of the code on

2 the Council entered the parliament procedure several months ago, the code

3 has not been adopted yet simply because the coalition of the SDA and the

4 HDZ opposes its authorities granted by the constitution."

5 Again, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm not going to go into the technicalities

6 and constitutional aspects of that with you, but just invite you to

7 confirm, if you can. That issue about the Council of National Equality,

8 that had been in the nature of a running saw or continuing issue of

9 conflict, hadn't it, between the Serbs in the parliament on the one hand

10 and the Muslims and Croats on the other?

11 A. It was a constant subject of debate among us, but the answer to

12 your question is: Yes.

13 Q. And then do you see a marginal note 3. It's just about a page or

14 so on.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, it's at page 11 of the English

16 version.

17 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik, number 3. Just going a few lines

18 above where it should be marked there's a sentence that begins: "For

19 example, the republican MUP."

20 Do you see that sentence?

21 A. Just a moment.

22 Q. There's a reference in the same sentence to the SDA/HDZ coalition.

23 Do you see that? It should be just about three or four lines up from

24 where you see the number 3 in the margin.

25 A. I really can't find the words "MUP" anywhere in the Serbian

Page 23122

1 version. I found the representative of the HDZ --

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour -- yes, I don't know what's happening,

3 Your Honour. It's -- Your Honour, we could very quickly offer assistance

4 in identifying the sentence, I'm sure. It's unusual for Mr. Krajisnik to

5 need it, but if -- something is clearly going wrong ...

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --

7 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That's --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I got it. It's a bit lower,

9 not above, number 3.


11 Q. Oh, I'm -- the number 3 has slipped then. My apologies, Mr.

12 Krajisnik, and sometimes the print isn't that distinct either.

13 The -- all right. You've got it then. Well, I'll read the

14 sentence: "In that way, some laws, decisions, and regulations which are

15 unconstitutional and against the vital interests of the Serbian people in

16 many areas are imposed upon them. For example, the republican MUP is in

17 the hands of the SDA/HDZ coalition and there are indications that the

18 enormous increase in the number of police reservists, feverish technical

19 equipping and arming of the police have in fact been carried out in order

20 to create a special army in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

21 Mr. Krajisnik, you refer to indications. Could you describe the

22 nature of the indications which you were aware of at that time?

23 A. I was always cautious in sharing the information that I had. I

24 always tried to avoid outright assertions. But this was common knowledge

25 that a decision was made to level out, as they say, the ethnic force and

Page 23123

1 to mobilise a lot of men from the Croat and Muslim ranks. And that did

2 produce an impression that the MUP was being reinforced and equipped in

3 order to create a Muslim army.

4 I did not want to -- to say that in so many words. I wanted

5 everyone to have their own opinion, but it was a fact that a great number

6 of reservists had been mobilised in a number of municipalities and it was

7 a fact that the greatest number of them was Muslims.

8 MR. STEWART: [Microphone not activated].

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. STEWART: Sorry.

11 Q. And then you continue: "The instruction by the defence minister

12 regarding the list of conscripts and his orders that the men of military

13 age and reservists should not respond to the call-up represent examples of

14 flagrant violation of the federal and republican law with the aim of

15 instilling disorder in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

16 First of all, the defence minister at that time was who?

17 A. It was Mr. Doko, Jerko Doko.

18 Q. And the call-up being referred to there was call-up to the JNA,

19 wasn't it?

20 A. That, I think, should be an invitation to national defence

21 secretariats across municipalities.

22 If you allow me to read. "The instructions of the minister of

23 defence regarding lists," this is a reference to the secretariats of

24 national defence which held lists of men, according to which conscription

25 was carried out. Maybe I should read it more carefully. The demand from

Page 23124

1 the army was that they wanted to take-over those lists and take-over

2 mobilisation as such, because the secretariats of national defence did not

3 want to perform their duty to carry out mobilisation, as envisaged by the

4 federal law, according to the instructions given by the minister of

5 defence.

6 Q. You can turn on quite a lot of pages now, Mr. Krajisnik, please,

7 probably about 10 in your copy.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, this goes to page 25 in the English

9 version.

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what we're looking for is a number 4 in the margin

11 and it should be very close to something headed "decision for the Serbian

12 people to stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia."

13 Let us know, please, when you've found that.

14 A. I found number 4.

15 Q. Yes, and against that or very close to that do you see the

16 heading: "Decision for the Serbian people to stay in a joint state of

17 Yugoslavia"?

18 THE INTERPRETER: It's page 21 in the Serbian version, if that

19 could help the witness.

20 MR. STEWART: It would. Thank you very much.

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, page 21.

22 A. I was about to praise the good organisation, but ...

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I would have welcomed that rare accolade from you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confident, Mr. Krajisnik, that you'll find

25 another opportunity to do so in the near future.

Page 23125

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will you go and have a look where

2 that is in their version -- I found it, actually, in my copy, even without

3 the number. But it's before the 4.


5 Q. I -- Mr. Krajisnik, we've identified the mild breakdown in the

6 system and we can remedy that pretty easily, I'm confident, for the

7 future.

8 Anyway, you've got -- the key point is, in the end, not the

9 numbering. You've got the decision for the -- where it says: "Decision

10 for the Serbian people to stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia," have you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Right. Now, just to clarify, and one can see easily from the

13 English version of course as well as from the B/C/S, that this has been --

14 this is an item on the agenda -- you've just said that yourself as

15 chairman a few lines up and Mr. Zekic is presenting it. So the proposal

16 is that decision: I. On the basis of the right to self-determination and

17 with the aim of a full and permanent protection of rights and interests of

18 the Serbian people, the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina decide to

19 stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia, together with Serbia, Montenegro,

20 Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, and West Srem,

21 and any others who decide in favour of such a survival."

22 So, in fact, Serbian Autonomous Districts is plural, isn't it,

23 there? We've got it singular in the English text, but it's plural.

24 And then II: "This decision takes effect once the Serbian people

25 in Bosnia and Herzegovina confirm it in a plebiscite."

Page 23126

1 And then it's to be published in Javnost. And then you -- we can

2 see at the bottom of page 25 in the English. You as the chairman, you

3 say: "Although it's obvious that we need neither to discuss nor to vote

4 on this, we must do it.

5 "Anybody want to discuss it?

6 "No one."

7 You move and so on, and it seems to be adopted "nem con," as one

8 says, and there is applause and so on.

9 And then -- but looking back to what's been adopted, at this

10 point, Mr. Krajisnik, a decision to stay in a joint state of Yugoslavia

11 together with Serbia, Montenegro, and the Serbian Autonomous Districts,

12 this is assuming, is it, at this point something -- well, I assuming that

13 Slovenia and Croatia were going to have no place in the future in

14 Yugoslavia, that they were going to have seceded?

15 A. They had not seceded yet, but they had already clearly expressed

16 their position that they wished to leave Yugoslavia. And I can explain

17 why this decision was formulated in this way, if necessary.

18 Q. Well, at that point, Mr. Krajisnik, you appear to confirm -- of

19 course, the intentions were very clear from Slovenia and Croatia. I'm

20 just putting it to you that this was you, the Bosnian Serbs, well,

21 accepting what was clearly the writing on the wall that that was going to

22 happen. Correct? You're nodding. We'll take that as a "yes."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, without contradiction.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm nodding, but I'm -- because I'm

25 waiting for you to be interpreted. But what I want to say is that it was

Page 23127

1 abundantly clear to all of us after all of these discussions held by the

2 president and others that Croatia and Slovenia had serious intentions

3 about leaving Yugoslavia. It would have an anachronous to say at that

4 point that we wanted to live together with Croats and Slovenes if we knew

5 they were about to declare their independence.


7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I didn't want to dwell on that point. I just was

8 basically seeking that confirmation that it was recognising the writing on

9 the wall, which you have given. Then -- but you were going to then

10 explain -- beyond that explain why this decision was adopted by the

11 Bosnian Serbs at this point.

12 A. Yes. During the distributions from the 10th until the 14th of

13 October, Serb MPs were saying that it was the position of the entire Serb

14 people in Bosnia that they wished to stay in Yugoslavia, even a re-shaped

15 one. And both in the Assembly and outside, they were being told that you

16 don't really have a mandate because many Serbs are speaking up and saying

17 something different, saying that they wanted an independent Bosnia. Your

18 decision, such a decision, would be valid only if confirmed by a

19 plebiscite of Serbian people.

20 That is why we wrote it this way because the volition of those

21 Serb lands elsewhere had already been clearly expressed, those Serb lands

22 that would later become UNPAs, and Serbs in other areas of Yugoslavia. We

23 couldn't include Macedonia, but we included all the others that we could

24 with the proviso that they had to confirm by referendum that it was indeed

25 their desire to stay within Yugoslavia.

Page 23128

1 Q. And then if we go on -- I hope we're going to find a number 5 in

2 the margin very soon, Mr. Krajisnik. And even better, if against

3 number 5, top of page 27 of the English, we find in the text

4 number 1: "This decision regulates the authorisations ..."

5 Do we have that?

6 A. Yes, I found it.

7 Q. Good. And it's all under a heading a few lines

8 earlier: "Decision on granting the authorisation to represent the Serbian

9 people of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and that's what it says again in

10 number 1.

11 And then number 2: "The following are hereby authorised to

12 represent and protect the interests of the Serbian people in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina as an item of this decision: Nikola Koljevic to participate

14 in the work of the Peace Conference on Yugoslavia in The Hague."

15 And that -- Professor Koljevic was at that time still a member of

16 the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, wasn't he? Yes?

17 Q. And that peace conference -- these peace conferences change their

18 names and the locations all over the place. But for practical purposes,

19 it was a conference under the auspices of the -- or the aegis, perhaps is

20 a better word, of Lord Carrington. Correct?

21 A. Yes. We called it The Hague Conference. It was later followed by

22 the London Conference, but it was actually The Hague Conference led by

23 Lord Carrington.

24 Q. And then it goes on: "And Biljana Plavsic to keep contacts with

25 the representatives of other international organisations and

Page 23129

1 institutions."

2 Now that phrase "international organisations and institutions"

3 covers a multitude of sins, Mr. Krajisnik, but what -- can you say what

4 were the main or the significant organisations that were contemplated

5 there with whom Mrs. Plavsic was to keep contact?

6 A. Since Bosnia and Herzegovina was going through a crisis, various

7 international organisations were visiting on a regular basis. You know

8 that there was Mr. Cyrus Vance, Mr. Cutileiro, Mr. Wijnaendts, the

9 International Red Cross, UNHCR, many other agencies and personalities were

10 involved, including ambassadors, et cetera. They came regularly to

11 Bosnia, to Sarajevo, so we were informing Mrs. Plavsic that she should

12 formulate our interests in the talks with those agencies and

13 personalities, not leave it to Alija Izetbegovic.

14 Q. And is it correct that Mrs. Plavsic had no -- though being the

15 contact person with the international organisations, played no significant

16 role in the peace negotiations?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And then we see that Mr. Milutin Najdanovic was to be the person

19 to deal with the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia parliament;

20 Dr. Karadzic with that republic's Presidency; and then you say something

21 laudatory about Mr. Karadzic; and then Mr. Simovic is to have contacts

22 with the Federal Executive Council. Dr. Karadzic we've heard of.

23 Mr. Najdanovic, did he have any other position in the SDS at that time?

24 A. Late Milutin Najdanovic was an MP of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the

25 Federal Assembly. We delegated our MPs from Bosnia and Herzegovina to the

Page 23130

1 Federal Assembly, and he was one of them. There were four Serbs

2 represented in the -- representing Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Federal

3 Assembly, so he was representing the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina in

4 the Federal Assembly.

5 Q. But he was being appointed here to represent the interests of

6 Bosnian Serbs in the Federal Assembly. Correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And Mr. Simovic, he was also, was he, a deputy in the Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina Assembly?

10 A. Mr. Simovic was deputy Prime Minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina

11 and at the same time chairman of the ministerial council. That's why he

12 was nominated to represent Bosnian Serbs and to establish a direct link

13 with the federal government of Yugoslavia.

14 Q. And if we turn on then, Mr. Krajisnik, to where you should find

15 the marginal number 6, which in the English is at the top of page 31.

16 A. I got it.

17 Q. And Mr. Cancar -- Petko Cancar has been invited to present this

18 item for the scheduling and organisation of the proposed plebiscite. The

19 question is set out in number 2 there: "In the plebiscite, the Serbian

20 people will answer the question: 'Do you agree with the decision of the

21 Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 24th October

22 1991, that the Serbian people should stay in a joint state with,'" and

23 it's the same as we saw before, "Serbia, Montenegro, SAO Krajina,

24 SAO Slavonia, Baranja, West Srem, and all the others who decide to stay.'"

25 And the date was fixed at the 10th of November, 1991. And,

Page 23131

1 Mr. Krajisnik, that's in fact when it happened, on the -- well, on the 9th

2 and 10th, over two days, didn't it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And then at page 39 of the English, it is -- Mr. Krajisnik, it's

5 item 7, so it's quite a few pages on -- when I say "item 7," it's your

6 marginal note 7, probably half a dozen or more pages on. Do you see

7 that? It will be confusing if I say "item 7," because actually in the

8 text it's right against what is described as item 8. So you've got your

9 number 7 in the margin. It says item 8 in the text, just to keep us on

10 your toes?

11 A. I found it.

12 Q. "Guests welcome speeches."

13 Mr. Krajisnik, we -- and this is readily checkable, but we've been

14 able to get from another document that -- that that is Mr. Brdjanin

15 speaking here: "I want to move this item without an introduction to

16 discussion."

17 And then: "Dr. President, colleagues and guests," it's

18 Mr. Brdjanin, and he -- some introductory words.

19 And then over the page he says: "Furthermore, as for the

20 plebiscite to be held on 9th and 10th November, I would like to take this

21 opportunity to say that a rally has been scheduled to take place in our

22 town of Drvar, starting at 1400 hours where our entire elite including

23 Mr. Karadzic and others will be present. In Banja Luka a rally will take

24 place," so he's announcing that.

25 But let me just skip, if I may, a couple of sentences. He

Page 23132

1 says: "As a matter of fact, those who think that Yugoslavia should

2 survive are going to come. Those of us here today must say, loud and

3 clear, that we also support the Yugoslav People's Army to carry out their

4 constitutional duties unobstructed, and, as a Serbian Assembly, we must

5 promise to let them carry their constitutional duties.

6 "What does that mean?

7 "No one has the right to call the mobilisation of Yugoslavia's

8 official army, the people's army, private. Therefore, we must say here

9 that we support the mobilisation unconditionally. Why do I say that? Our

10 great leader, and I will not say his name, said that this is not the time

11 of truth, but unfortunately, those who are weaker think that it is the

12 time of force."

13 Mr. Krajisnik, who -- do you -- can you say who was the great

14 leader whose name Mr. Brdjanin could not bring himself to say?

15 A. I really don't know. I really have no idea who he meant.

16 Q. And then he says: "We want the peace in this country" -- can I

17 invite you to read this sentence, Mr. Krajisnik, because we may have a

18 hitch in the English translation. So do you see the next sentence: "We

19 want the peace in this country," could I invite you to read the next

20 couple of sentences from your own language version. Out loud I mean, of

21 course.

22 A. "We want peace in this country. We don't want borders with

23 anyone, but those who think they can lead us out by force, we have to be

24 ready to prevent that. If, as our people -- I want to say -- or rather,

25 if it should be necessary, God forbid, the sooner this challenge is picked

Page 23133

1 up the sooner the peace will be signed."

2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please pick up the previous

3 sentence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to go back one sentence

5 and to repeat. And perhaps it's the mistake we all make, that while

6 reading it always goes too quickly. Could you go one sentence back and

7 read it again?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

9 "Today a dream has come true, a dream that had been ascribed to me

10 in the pre-election campaign. People often told me that I said in jest,

11 although I meant it seriously, that Krajina is the west of Serbia. And I

12 explained it this way: It's not possible that people are so ignorant

13 about geography to think that we are in the west, and that's why we have

14 to set our western borders in a way that suits the Serbian people but

15 without prejudice to any other people.

16 "That's all I wanted to say. Thank you very much.

17 "And good luck to you all."

18 This was not written very grammatically and so it was rather

19 difficult. It reads with difficulty.


21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

22 Now, Mr. Brdjanin, did he have any central role in the SDS at that

23 time?

24 A. He had no role, apart from being a deputy in the Assembly, and I

25 don't think that he belonged to any of the structures of the SDS either.

Page 23134

1 As far as I can remember. At any rate, he was not an important figure,

2 for sure, if I can put it that way.

3 Q. Who was the -- I won't say the next speaker because that's

4 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, but the one after that immediately, Mr. Stanko

5 Cvijan, if that's anywhere near the correct pronunciation. Do you see

6 that, Mr. Krajisnik? There's about three or four lines from you and then

7 a Mr. Stanko Cvijan. Who was he?

8 A. In the government of Serbia there was a ministry for Serbs outside

9 Serbia, and he was minister in the ministry for Serbs outside Serbia and

10 he attended our Assembly as a guest.

11 Q. And then if we go on then -- I'm not going to dwell on point 8, as

12 it came up in the margin. But if we could go on about four -- about

13 three, four pages, it's actually not a -- there isn't a number in the

14 margin, but do you see the name Mr. Dragan Kalinic comes up for the first

15 time as a speaker. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?

16 MR. STEWART: It's at the top of page 47, Your Honours, in the

17 English.

18 Q. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And who was Mr. Kalinic?

21 A. Mr. Kalinic was a deputy in the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 on behalf of the Party of Reformist Forces that was headed by Mr. Nenad

23 Kecmanovic in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And he joined the Serb Assembly because

24 he was an ethnic Serb, and he took part in the debate here as an MP who

25 was an equitable member of the Assembly of the Serb people in

Page 23135

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. And he --

3 MR. STEWART: Again, Your Honours, perhaps I just ask for his

4 introductory 20 or 30 lines to be noted, and then pick it up --

5 Q. Near to what will be number 9 in the margin of your copy,

6 Mr. Krajisnik.

7 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honours, that's on page 48 of the English

8 version.

9 Q. And four lines down, actually, on page 48 there's a reference to

10 the SDA and the HDZ, and the sentence begins: "With this act of

11 establishing an Assembly."

12 Do you see that sentence, Mr. Krajisnik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. He says: "With this act of establishing an Assembly which will

15 represent the interests of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

16 we are today entering a new political reality of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

17 which we have been unable to do through the Council for National Equality

18 and the Chamber of Nationalities on whose establishment we could not

19 agree. The Muslim and the Croatian people have the next move and they

20 will know to choose what suits their interests best. And no Serbian vote

21 should and has the right" -- must be voter, I suggest. "And no Serbian

22 voter should and has the right to be against it."

23 Mr. Krajisnik, when Mr. Kalinic was saying: "The Muslim and the

24 Croatian people have the next move," was that -- was it your view that the

25 next move was in the hands of the Muslim and Croatian people?

Page 23136

1 A. Well, I would like to explain this in the following way. He meant

2 that we had opted for this path in order to protect our interests

3 because -- let me put it this way. We have -- we did not really have a

4 Council for National Equality, to protect national interests, so we did

5 this in order to protect our interests. And now it is up to you to make

6 your own decision in terms of establishing a body that would protect your

7 interests. Of course, that's not a good thing; it's better if we all

8 reach agreement. But what he said was: Well, this is what we did and now

9 it is for you to resolve your problems, because sometimes your interests

10 will have to be protected in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm

11 sorry. The Assembly only had the task to meet and debate at that moment

12 on the vital interests of the Serb people.

13 There was a decision that all officials from the ranks of the Serb

14 people from the SDS and others should remain in their positions in the

15 Bosnian and Herzegovinian government. No one had withdrawn, and they were

16 not there to discuss anything else but vital national interests.

17 Q. And where -- so where Mr. Kalinic was saying: "If they make a

18 similar move," did you understand what he had in mind by "a similar move"?

19 A. Well, this is a positive approach by Mr. Kalinic. He said that if

20 they do something similar, and if they establish some council of nations

21 of their own or some Assembly of their own to defend their interests we

22 should respect that. Because at any rate we do not have the right to hold

23 against others what we had done ourselves. It's not that one people has

24 an exclusive right to something. All three peoples have the same rights

25 as far as these very sensitive matters are concerned.

Page 23137

1 Q. And then we have quite shortly after that at number 10 in your

2 marginal notes, we have Mr. Koljevic speaking.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm not going to dwell on that again,

4 but I -- given Mr. Koljevic's quite significant position, I'd ask Your

5 Honours to note that contribution from Professor Koljevic, Plato rather

6 than Shakespeare in that particular instance.

7 Q. And then at marginal note 11 but towards the end. Well, perhaps

8 it isn't that near to the end of what Professor Koljevic is saying. He

9 says -- top of page 53 of the English: "It is up to all the patriots who

10 cannot accept that Yugoslavia becomes such a toy."

11 Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik? Top of page 53 in the English.

12 It's a new paragraph. It's quite a long paragraph. "It is up to all the

13 patriots who cannot accept that Yugoslavia becomes such a toy."

14 Do you ...

15 A. Could you please read it out and then I can give my own comments.

16 I don't even have to find it in the text. I can't find it. I should be

17 able to find the word "Yugoslavia," but I really can't find my way here.

18 Perhaps there's --

19 Q. I'll tell you what you might see, Mr. Krajisnik. You might see

20 the figure of 500.000 somewhere around the middle of a quite long

21 paragraph. If that figure jumps off the page to you, that will be the

22 right paragraph. If it doesn't, it doesn't. It's --

23 I'll carry on, shall I, Mr. Krajisnik? Have a look for the figure

24 500.000 while you're --

25 A. 12/1 -- oh, just a moment, please.

Page 23138

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I should say I do feel some of this is

2 the -- what I know to be the indirect pressures on all concerned of the

3 very large numbers of Defence teams involved in the cases which have

4 started this week. Your Honour, where that's another matter perhaps we'll

5 take up in other quarters, but my apologies, Your Honour, but it's not

6 going quite as smoothly as it has done.

7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to carry on with this paragraph you've

8 invited me to read.

9 "It is up to all the patriots who cannot accept that Yugoslavia

10 becomes such a toy to take this moment and from withdrawing in defence of

11 what is disappearing, shift to a constructive action of creating a new

12 Yugoslavia. I see this Assembly, just like those moves we took yesterday

13 in the Presidency of Yugoslavia at the consultations for the change, as a

14 Copernican turn to stop the negative trend of disintegration and start

15 creating a new Yugoslavia which suits us and in which the Serbian people

16 will congregate as much as they can. I would like to remind those who are

17 telling you that Serbs are maniacs who want every Serb to live in one

18 country, that in Croatia alone about 500.000 Serbs will stay in Zagreb and

19 other towns even when we assemble this state. Therefore" --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please read slower. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. STEWART: My apologies, I will.

23 Q. "Therefore, we are achieving our objective within our abilities,

24 making sure that something is left for the others, as they should not be

25 stripped of their rights. No one has the right to ridicule such an

Page 23139

1 objective of the Serbian people. Of course, our doors are open to the

2 others, although I could quote my faithful fellow sufferer and fellow

3 traveller Biljana Plavsic: Living with Serbs is wonderful, but God it is

4 difficult to wage war with them.

5 "I have adopted this thought of [yours]."

6 Mr. Krajisnik, were you comfortable to associate yourself and

7 would you have associated yourself with those words of Professor Koljevic?

8 A. Well, the late Nikola Koljevic was a poetic soul and he knew how

9 to speak so beautifully. This was a moment when emotions came to the

10 fore. He, quite simply, quoted Mrs. Plavsic here and she was a lot more

11 radical. I'm referring to this last bit.

12 But as for his vision of Yugoslavia, when he referred to that he

13 said, intentionally, implicitly, that we do not accept that someone is

14 telling us that we are trying to create a Greater Serbia and to try to

15 take some lands that do not belong to the Serbs. He was saying -- or

16 rather, Your Honours, at that moment we were deluded. We thought that a

17 new Yugoslavia would not be established, that is to say, it -- consisting

18 of Serbia and Montenegro. Only we thought that our right to remain in

19 Yugoslavia was stronger than the right of those who wanted to secede. But

20 then we realised that Yugoslavia was established, a new one, and we were

21 just left there.

22 So Mr. Koljevic said at that moment that all of us who want to

23 keep Yugoslavia want to remain in a re-shaped Yugoslavia and the door is

24 open to all of those who want to remain in a state that is internationally

25 recognised. And then at this last point he quoted Mrs. Plavsic -- well,

Page 23140

1 that was sort of icing on the cake, but he did not want to make a

2 belligerent statement, especially coming from him. Even if he had said

3 it, nobody would have taken it that way.

4 I am trying to speak slowly, but if the interpreters think I speak

5 too fast, then I am really going to slow down because I want to make their

6 job easier.

7 MR. STEWART: They usually tell us --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that it is very fast, and

9 for the accuracy of the transcript it would be good if the speaker spoke

10 slower. Thank you.

11 MR. STEWART: Your invitation has been taken up, Mr. Krajisnik.

12 Thank you.

13 Your Honour, there's a tiny linguistic point, it did occur to me

14 Your Honours' colleagues might have been entitled to smile at yours and my

15 attempt to dredge up our Latin from many years ago from -- given their

16 languages.

17 But, Your Honour, here the phrase "fellow traveller," in English

18 that does have a distinct connotation of communism.

19 Q. I just want to clarify it's the -- what appears in the text, and

20 perhaps either you or the interpreters can confirm this, Mr. Krajisnik.

21 What appears in the English text is "fellow traveller." It doesn't have

22 any implication of being a communist here, does it? Just it does in

23 English.

24 A. No, no. Perhaps it would be best if I were to explain this.

25 We have these two very similar words, "sapatnik" and

Page 23141

1 "saputnik." "Saputnik" is someone that you travel with, a travelling

2 companion; and a "sapatnik" is a fellow sufferer. So then they were

3 together on the Presidency, and they were fellow sufferers. It was hard.

4 She said: He is my "sapatnik," fellow sufferer, because we are struggling

5 together in the Presidency on behalf of the Serb people because we are a

6 minority.

7 These are very similar words, words that sound very similar but

8 that are different, and all the interpreters know that. I think that this

9 says "sapatnik" --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Fellow sufferer, notes the interpreter.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But no, it says "sapatnik" and

12 "saputnik," so it's both I see.


14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, that deals with the point. Thank you.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, would this be a suitable moment for a

16 break?

17 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. Stewart. Before I adjourn for 25 minutes

18 and announce that we'll resume at a quarter past 4.00.

19 Mr. Krajisnik, the passage Mr. Stewart was drawing your attention

20 to is found on the page which bears the number 12/2, or the ERN number,

21 last three digitals 837, to get you on track again.

22 MR. STEWART: That's most helpful, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until quarter past 4.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

Page 23142

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you're invited to proceed.

2 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Were Your Honours going

3 to --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, yes, I still owe Mr. Krajisnik --

5 Mr. Krajisnik, you've requested to speak with counsel on the

6 subject of reports in the media on your testimony which you consider to be

7 unfair in order to see whether or not to address the matter, either

8 through Mr. Stewart or either by yourself. That is the subject on which

9 the Chamber gives you permission to speak with Mr. Stewart during the next

10 break. We have assumed that, to start with, 15 minutes would be

11 approximately what might be needed. So during the next break you have an

12 opportunity to consult -- and you can speak about it with counsel. It's

13 not free to speak with other team members. I take it that you wanted to

14 speak with Mr. Stewart and/or Mr. Josse. So that's the limitation. Not

15 everyone in the Defence -- well, Mr. Sladojevic, in the presence of

16 Mr. Stewart would be no problem.

17 MR. STEWART: That's understood, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's not a general permission for whoever

19 supports and who is on the list of the -- it's limited to --

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- the Defence team.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. That's the way we

23 would have understood it, and it's helpful to have that confirmation.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the number 12 in the margin should be very shortly

25 after number 11.

Page 23143

1 MR. STEWART: It's at the foot of page 53 of the English. Your

2 Honour, I've been invited to go more slowly so Your Honours may notice

3 that I'm going to try and do that.

4 Q. It's the paragraph beginning: "When the laws fail us, we must not

5 succumb to lawlessness, instead we must create new laws from scratch."

6 Do you see that paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. Thank you. "That is how I understand the creation of this

9 Serbian Assembly which was created to defend and legalise the natural

10 rights of a people and not deprive anyone else of their rights."

11 At this stage, Mr. Krajisnik, nine days or so after the crisis in

12 the parliament, this first meeting of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, did you

13 already have it in mind that the Assembly would pass laws in the

14 conventional form, statutes, codified laws, would have a constitution.

15 Was this already part of the conception of this Assembly at this point?

16 [French on English channel].

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Assembly had a single mandate --

18 and it had to do with vital national interests.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We have a problem with French and English mix-up at

20 this moment, so I don't know whether the --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Do you hear the English booth now without any --

22 JUDGE ORIE: [French phrase spoken].

23 Please proceed --

24 [French on English channel].

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 23144

1 Q. Perhaps you could start again, Mr. Krajisnik. We had a linguistic

2 melange.

3 [French on English channel].

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Response to your question --

5 JUDGE ORIE: It happened frequently now. Usually the first three

6 or four words are in French and then it switches to --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Is it just the English channel now? There seem

8 to be interferences, I see, on the --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Now I hear English only.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Do you only hear English now, yeah.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, there seems to be a technical --

12 let's try slowly to re-start and see whether -- could I ask Judge Hanoteau

13 to listen carefully to the French channel to see whether there's any

14 English on that and let's then can proceed.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's one of those rare areas where our

16 resources are greater than the Prosecutions, so any objection is likely to

17 come from them.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, shall we start again, please, on that. I'll give

19 you the question. Did you all -- the end of my question.

20 Did you already have it in mind that the Assembly would pass laws

21 in the conventional law, statute, codified laws, would have a

22 constitution? Was that already part of the conception of this Assembly at

23 that point?

24 A. Absolutely not. That's what I said in one of my previous answers

25 a few moments ago. The mandate of the Assembly was -- well, rather, the

Page 23145

1 deputies would stay in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and then as

2 far as national interests are concerned this Assembly would meet and

3 resolve these vital issues that there was no other way of resolving.

4 There was no Council for the Equality of National Rights or any other

5 body, and at that moment that's what the mandate was of the Assembly of

6 the Serb people in the Assembly in Bosnia and Herzegovina. That was the

7 name of the Assembly then.

8 Q. And then the speaker, Professor Koljevic, at the next paragraph he

9 said: "Let me say just two more things, two and a half, rather. As for

10 our first decision regarding the plebiscite, there is often some talk in

11 this town, and there was some yesterday, how the SDS does not represent

12 the Serbian people. That is the SDS that won 90 per cent, more than 90

13 per cent of votes. Our former partners may think that they would have an

14 easier time with some other Serbs. We are not afraid of the check of our

15 Serbdom, but we rather hope for it after this year of our political work.

16 The plebiscite will be the right answer to all those talks about whether

17 or not we represent the Serbs - it is now up to the people to say."

18 Mr. Krajisnik, at this time in late October 1991, did you have any

19 doubts as to whether the SDS represented the views of the Serbian people

20 of Bosnia?

21 A. We, the SDS, firmly believed that we represented the interests of

22 the Serb people. However, there were discussions by the other side that

23 brought that into question and blamed the SDS by saying: You do not have

24 the right to say that on behalf of all the Serbs. And this is what

25 Mr. Koljevic is saying.

Page 23146

1 Now if you remember, I said before this break that in this

2 intermezzo, between the 14th and the 24th, when we had different

3 discussions, and we were trying to find a solution, we were being told:

4 You're not the only ones. There are many Serbs who are calling us by

5 phone and who are in favour of independent states. So what you're saying

6 is not the opinion of the Serb people.

7 Q. And then if we go on, it's page 67 in the English. It's marginal

8 note 13 on your copy, Mr. Krajisnik. And it should be directly against

9 your own name, just after Mr. Nedic has been talking.

10 A. That's the last page that I have here. Please go ahead. I found

11 it.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 "Ladies and gentlemen.

14 "Today we got our Assembly. The Assembly got its opposition and I

15 hope that we have got some healthy representatives of the Serbian people

16 to protect the Serbian people, deliver their will and implement it in this

17 parliament.

18 "Before I close this first session of the Assembly," and you gave

19 some thanks. And then you -- well, it's easier just to read it through.

20 "Before I close this first session of the Assembly of the Serbian

21 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I would like to thank you for taking

22 part in its work and ask you to be the fitting interpreters of the goals

23 and tasks of this Assembly, to fight for the constitutional and legal

24 rights and for the preservation of peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina, to be

25 actively engaged in fulfilling the main objective, not only for the

Page 23147

1 Serbians, but for all the honest peoples and citizens too, to keep a

2 common state which will be a true state, established in a democratic

3 fashion and which her citizens will feel as their own. That would be a

4 state with which all those people who wish to live together will join and

5 where all the citizens will feel free and happy. To all the citizens of

6 Yugoslavia, I wish the war to stop and the peace to come into every home,

7 that the perpetrators of war be punished and that each people remain in

8 Yugoslavia, depending on their choice of state."

9 Mr. Krajisnik, the -- the only war - I'm not suggesting it wasn't

10 more than enough - but the only war that was currently going on at that

11 time was the Croatian war, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At the end of this first meeting of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, was

14 there, so far as you can say, among those who attended that Assembly, was

15 there satisfaction, dissatisfaction with the meeting and its outcome?

16 What was the overall tone of the reaction of those present?

17 A. Well, the overall tone was that everybody was happy to all

18 appearances. But I have to say for truth's sake that when something like

19 this is created there is an aftertaste of misgivings rising from the

20 knowledge that the other two sides are against it. You feel the pleasure

21 that you normally feel when you do something that you believe is right and

22 that you really want to do but that you had to win through struggle, that

23 you had to fight for. So all those present expressed outwardly their

24 satisfaction, but still inside they felt anxiety, knowing that it was a

25 unilateral decision, just like the decisions that the other parties had

Page 23148

1 taken earlier.

2 I don't know if I managed to explain properly the prevailing

3 atmosphere, but also the -- the -- the feelings that they kept to

4 themselves. It was a forced move, if I can put it that way, and that's

5 why it left an aftertaste of anxiety.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it looks as if Mr. Mujanovic has

8 achieved perfect timing with the production of the material. Your Honour,

9 may I just take one second just to sort out the logistics.

10 [Defence counsel confer]

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have three copies of the B/C/S

12 version marked up in the usual way with numbers. So one for Mr. Krajisnik

13 and then two available for the booth. Your Honours, what we don't have,

14 I'm afraid, in relation to this is the hard copy of the English.

15 Your Honour, could I --

16 JUDGE ORIE: What are we talking about?

17 MR. STEWART: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. We're moving -- remiss

18 of me. We're moving to the next Assembly session, I beg your pardon, the

19 second session --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Registrar tell us -- that would be the

21 second then?

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, the 21st of November, 1991. The exhibit number

23 is 64A, 23 -- folder 23, tab 633. Your Honour, we -- we notified these

24 matters, as I understand, earlier in the day.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Although that message might not have come to us, we

Page 23149

1 have a copy now available and on the computer we have one as well.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I hope we're right,

4 Your Honour, that the procedure for us is to give notification in that

5 way. When something's already been exhibited, we give that specific

6 notification and that's what's required. That's the procedure, is it not?

7 JUDGE ORIE: It is -- no. Is it 633? No. I make a mistake. I'm

8 sorry. I'll find my copy.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes. Binder -- yes --

10 JUDGE ORIE: No, tab --

11 MR. STEWART: P64A, binder 23, tab 633 is what we have, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I'll find it.

14 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

15 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, you have the margin-numbered version. So can

16 we go to number 2 in the margin?

17 MR. STEWART: It's page 7 of the English, Your Honours.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it's --

19 MR. STEWART: There's a concern it's not marked with the numbers,

20 but we feel confident it is actually.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This copy was probably given to

23 someone else by mistake, the copy you mean. But I'll find the passages

24 that you want. I just don't have those numbers on the margin. I see page

25 number 7.

Page 23150

1 MR. STEWART: It probably repays the investment of time,

2 Mr. Krajisnik, to just sort this out. May I -- may I retrieve that for a

3 moment and then ...

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, sorry, the dog ate my homework is often

6 an excuse that children use. The photocopier ate the last copy with the

7 numbers on, Your Honour; that's what happened in this case. I hadn't

8 appreciated -- my apologies, I hadn't appreciated the three copies I gave

9 were not exactly the same, because I didn't know there had been that

10 photocopier eating.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll find our way through it.

12 MR. STEWART: Well, Mr. Krajisnik's copy needs to be swapped over,

13 Your Honour, because, with respect to the interpreters, and my apologies,

14 it is Mr. Krajisnik who most importantly should have the properly numbered

15 version. Thank you.

16 Your Honours have been handed a dauntingly chunky pile of papers

17 there.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll manage.

19 MR. STEWART: I'm sure you will as Your Honours do.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can you find number 2? I don't -- as far as

21 number 1 is concerned, you can ignore that if it's indeed there.

22 MR. STEWART: But number 2, it's at page 7 of the English, Your

23 Honour, towards the bottom of that page Mr. Krajisnik is talking.

24 Q. Again, Mr. Krajisnik, your name should appear opposite the

25 number 2. Does it?

Page 23151

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. And you say: "Ladies and gentlemen, I'm convinced

3 that these are crucial times for the survival of the Serbian people in

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina and I would dare say even more broadly when it

5 comes to the Serbian people as such. Not all of us, however, seem to be

6 aware of this fact; however -- hence what we are doing seems normal and

7 everyday to us. Those who are not aware of their role and the things they

8 are creating should not be criticised but reminded. That is why,

9 gentlemen, I remind you, too, you are the creators of the new history of

10 the Serbian people and not only of Serbian history but of the history of

11 all peoples who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia and who want

12 to preserve the state."

13 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honours, I don't want to take time on this

14 next bit, but merely draw Your Honours' attention to the fact this is

15 Mr. Krajisnik's contribution at this stage of the discussion.

16 Q. And then if we can go on to beyond -- you should see marginal

17 note 3 following within about a page, page 9 of the English. "This

18 message will never be rendered worthless" is against 3.

19 And you say -- not that long paragraph but then -- which I invite

20 to be noted but then the next shortish paragraph you say: "It is normal

21 and in the Serbian democratic tradition, once we created the Assembly of

22 the Serbian people of BH, then we had to be aware - and we were - that the

23 Assembly of the Serbian people of BH came with our own opposition in the

24 same chamber.

25 "I will not praise them too much since they are the opposition -

Page 23152

1 big political opponents to us in government - but on behalf of the Serbian

2 people and myself, I would like to thank them for their work!"

3 Now, there had in the previous Assembly session been some

4 reference to opposition.

5 Mr. Krajisnik, what was the nature and extent of what you are

6 referring to there as the opposition within this Serb Assembly?

7 A. There were MPs of the Serbian Democratic Party and one or two MPs

8 from the Serbian Renewal Movement within Bosnia-Herzegovina. They formed

9 one club. And in this meaning they represented the ruling parties,

10 whereas the opposition were MPs from other parties, from the reformist

11 party, from the League of Communists, and -- I don't know the names of all

12 of them. They were from various parties and members of this Assembly.

13 Q. And was the position that all Serbs who had been deputies in the

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly were automatically invited to become

15 members of the Serb Assembly?

16 A. Well, the word "invited" may not be the most appropriate, the most

17 adequate, but the door was open to all to participate in that Assembly

18 because they, too, were Serbs and they had the right to have a say when

19 vital interests were decided upon. They had the right for their voice to

20 be heard and be taken into account. Some joined even a year after the

21 Assembly was established.

22 So the door was opened to every Serb in the Assembly of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina to join this Assembly which decided on the vital interests of

24 the Serbian people whenever such issues came on the agenda.

25 Q. And that was at that point a qualification as well, was it? You

Page 23153

1 had to have been or to be a deputy in the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly

2 to have the right to attend and participate in the new Bosnian Serb

3 Assembly, did you?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. Later on during my testimony we will come to

5 the stage when they wanted to introduce some new representatives into the

6 Assembly, but that failed. All Serbs, and only Serbs, in the Assembly of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina were entitled to become members of the Serbian

8 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or the Assembly of the Serbian people

9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Q. Now, you say in that paragraph where you say you won't praise them

11 too much since they're the opposition. And then you say: "Big political

12 opponents to us in government."

13 Were there sharp differences of view between the SDS and members

14 of other parties at that stage?

15 A. At that stage there were no major differences, only in terms of

16 shades, but that was negligible.

17 Q. Now, if you go on, it may be over the page, it may be just about a

18 page on in the same page. In the English it's towards the top of page 10

19 against the line: "We should destroy the bureaucratic approach of the

20 centralised economic power."

21 Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?

22 A. I found it.

23 Q. And then you say: "We have a duty to place every citizen in a

24 state of dependency to make his spending dependent on his income. It is

25 our duty to prevent the outflow of money and unjustified appropriation.

Page 23154

1 It is our goal to decentralise all republican funds, to keep most of the

2 income of citizens and legal entities in their municipalities, regions,

3 and autonomous districts, so that only limited contributions are paid to

4 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

5 Just pausing there. When you referred to "the duty to prevent the

6 outflow of money and unjustified appropriation," what had you in mind by

7 your reference to "unjustified appropriation"?

8 A. I was saying this as an economist, as a trained economist. Bosnia

9 and Herzegovina is an underdeveloped country, and in this underdeveloped

10 country the little resources that were available were all centralised in

11 Sarajevo, where I lived, whereas the periphery, the other provinces, were

12 neglected which gave rise to a certain animosity towards Sarajevo. So our

13 commitment was to decentralisation of those funds in order to develop

14 roads, infrastructure, et cetera, so that the entire Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina would be developed, leaving just a modest amount of resources

16 for the central powers in Sarajevo.

17 It is absolutely not okay to give all resources to the centre. I

18 believe that every state should be polycentric instead of creating this

19 state with a huge head and an underdeveloped body. The entire state is

20 populated, not only the centre; and in today's Bosnia and Herzegovina this

21 is being translated into practice. There are various cantons that are

22 being developed more or less evenly; however, it's year 2006 now.

23 Q. Yes. Well, there we were here in 1991, Mr. Krajisnik. The next

24 paragraph: "We have a duty to determine the function of regions and

25 autonomous districts with a view to preserving the unity of the Serbian

Page 23155

1 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is why we should not allow regions

2 to become independent entities, separate from the rest of the Serbian

3 people. It is essential that the Serbian people organisation themselves

4 into one legal and state entity, one common state with all the other

5 peoples who want to build a happier future with us, and gentlemen, you

6 know this but I would just like to emphasise it this time."

7 Mr. Krajisnik, at that point in time in referring to "one legal

8 and state entity, one common state with all the other peoples," what did

9 you have in mind?

10 A. This was at a time when we had just endorsed the reports of the

11 plebiscite, and we had found -- we had received no positive answer

12 concerning an agreement from the other two sides and we wanted to meet

13 with them and seek a solution because we were clear. Autonomous regions

14 should not transmute into sociopolitical communities, into small states,

15 because our region had 50 per cent of all Serbs in Bosnia. The other

16 50 per cent or even 60 were dispersed across other regions. We wanted to

17 create a state in which every Serb in this case, but normally every

18 citizen, would be able to exercise, to pursue, his interests. We did not

19 want to please only the Serbian people but to find a solution that would

20 be compatible with the interests of other peoples as well, and that was

21 our purpose here.

22 We knew that we cannot do anything unilaterally. We made an

23 overture to the other two sides, saying that we should adopt a

24 constitution for a Bosnia and Herzegovina that would remain in Yugoslavia

25 and would be acceptable to all of us. And that would very soon become

Page 23156

1 evident once the negotiations start; our position there would be very

2 clear.

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when the phrase there "one legal and state entity,

4 essential that the Serbian people organise themselves into one legal and

5 state entity," were you talking there about an entity that would be

6 recognised as you were accepting was going to happen in the case of

7 Slovenia and Croatia, that would be recognised internationally as a

8 separate, independent, sovereign state?

9 A. Absolutely not. At that time we only wanted to rule ourselves

10 within Bosnia and Herzegovina. We didn't want the will of others to be

11 imposed on us. We wanted to stay within Yugoslavia at the time, but that

12 option was very soon afterwards foreclosed because Serbia and Montenegro

13 announced their intention to form a new state comprising only these two

14 republics.

15 Q. So by your reference there to "one legal and state entity," what

16 were you contemplating as the territorial extent of that entity?

17 A. That would later become evident in our decisions. The regions had

18 been established, as I explained yesterday, by the declaration of the will

19 of municipalities. At one point we discussed genocide, et cetera, that's

20 one of the issues here. But leaving that aside, we -- we wanted to form

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina in such a way as to create an entity for Muslims in

22 areas where Muslims were in the majority, a Serbian entity with Serbs in

23 the majority, et cetera.

24 There was no mention of any moves of population. We planned to

25 base our entities on their 1971 census or perhaps a later census, to

Page 23157

1 derive from that information in which areas certain ethnic communities had

2 an absolute majority. But at that time it was already known that a new

3 Yugoslavia would consist only of Serbia and Montenegro.

4 Q. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, the -- in asking you specifically what you

5 were contemplating as the territorial extent of that entity, and you said

6 that would later become evident, one aspect of that question is this:

7 Did you contemplate at that time that the one legal and state entity into

8 which the Serbian people would organise themselves was -- would lie

9 entirely within the borders of what at this time was Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina?

11 A. Absolutely.

12 Q. Did you also contemplate that it would be less than the whole

13 extent of what at this time was Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. I'm afraid I didn't quite understand the question. Maybe I didn't

15 understand the interpretation.

16 Q. First of all, to be clear, Mr. Krajisnik. So you're talking about

17 one legal and state entity into which the Serbian people are to organise

18 themselves. You've just said a moment ago you were not contemplating an

19 entity whose territory went anywhere outside the then-existing borders of

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina. So the next question then is: Were you

21 contemplating an entity which was less than the whole extent of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina as it was at this date, 21st November?

23 A. Well, that entity was certainly supposed to be smaller than Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina, if I understood your question correctly. The Serbian

25 entity was supposed to be much smaller than Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 23158

1 Q. Yes --

2 A. I'm not quite sure I understood your question.

3 Q. No, you have answered --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, doesn't that necessarily follow from one

5 of the earlier answers where Mr. Krajisnik said that they would have an

6 entity for those parts where the Muslims were in the majority, and a Serb

7 entity where the Serbs were in the majority, which, if you exclude any

8 foreign territory, would - at least from what my logic tells me - would

9 necessarily mean that it would be more limited than the whole of the

10 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, absolutely, my logic is the same as

12 your logic, Your Honour, but I'm not the witness. And Your Honour,

13 what --

14 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, but --

15 MR. STEWART: It may seem oversimplistic to Your Honour, but I'm

16 trying to lay the clearest possible foundation for what I'm then about to

17 ask in relation to the next point. And if it's too clear and is too

18 simple, Your Honour, then my apologies. But my logic is no different from

19 Your Honours', but I've just always felt that erring on the side of having

20 it crystal clear is better. That's all. If I've misjudged it, Your

21 Honour, I've misjudged it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was crystal clear already to us.

23 Please proceed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, may I?

25 There are two overlapping theories here. At this moment we wanted

Page 23159

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Yugoslavia, and there were no entities that were

2 supposed to be there. And as I said, later, as it seemed obvious that

3 there would be a Yugoslavia consisting of Serbia and Montenegro only,

4 there was this idea of an independent Bosnia within which these entities

5 would be formed on the basis of the census.

6 I don't want there to be any confusion at this point in time that

7 we wanted some entity which would not be the same entity like in the

8 Cutileiro Plan. These are regions, regions that would have various ties

9 so that the overall interests would be taken into account, not only the

10 Serb interests. So all of that should be taken into account.

11 Therefore, Mr. Stewart was right when he said would it have been

12 less. At that moment, if these regions were brought together they would

13 be a lot less than what Bosnia and Herzegovina was. Of course there would

14 be other regions and yet third regions, but these are regions that had

15 been established earlier on and that had been verified and they would not

16 be sociopolitical communities or states or anything like that.

17 Have I been clear now? I'm afraid that we're going to create some

18 confusion here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: There has not been any confusion until now. It was,

20 as I said before, crystal clear. And I just wondered whether that

21 additional question was needed, being it clear already to us.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are going to reconcile me with

24 Mr. Stewart by the end of my testimony. I see that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Although it's not my objective, it would be a side

Page 23160

1 effect which would not damage anyone perhaps.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. STEWART: I'm speechless for one moment, Your Honour.

4 Q. In the transcript the next bit of that sentence, I've already read

5 the whole sentence, but after the reference to the one legal and state

6 entity you then use the phrase: "One common state with all the other

7 peoples ..."

8 Now, the way it reads, Mr. Krajisnik - and please confirm this -

9 is that the one common state you're referring to is the same as the one

10 legal and state entity that you've just referred to. Is that correct?

11 A. I have to read this out. Serbs -- well, like the Germans have

12 Bavaria that is called a state and then in the United States of America

13 there is Texas that is a state, well, this is what was meant here, not an

14 independent state but that it should be -- well, as far as I can see it --

15 or actually, I cannot see it. It would be easier if I could find it here

16 now. But it does refer to Yugoslavia. It's Serbs and other people who

17 would live in that state. Yes, yes, exactly. The interests of all

18 peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina; yes, you're right. Yes. That's the part

19 that you referred to, yes.

20 Q. So on the footing that what you're referring to is one legal and

21 state entity, same as what you're referring to there as one common state.

22 Your reference to "one common state with all the other peoples who want to

23 build a happier future with us," what is meant there by "all the other

24 peoples"? Does it -- I'll be more specific. Is that intended to embrace

25 Serbs and non-Serbs?

Page 23161

1 A. I'm certainly referring to both Serbs and non-Serbs here. But I

2 have to say that it is very difficult to interpret what this speaker here

3 is trying to say because Yugoslavia and Bosnia are being mentioned here

4 intermittently and then this entity.

5 Now I'm speaking on my own behalf. The intention here was for us

6 to create something that would be in the interests of the Serbs and the

7 non-Serbs.

8 Now, when he's speaking here, there's that part of the sentence

9 that you referred to, autonomous regions that would be linked-up --

10 Q. Sorry, may I just interrupt for one moment, Mr. Krajisnik. There

11 is no -- there is no confusion here, is there? We are all understanding,

12 are we, that the speaker here is you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I just wanted to be clear about that, Mr. Krajisnik. You used the

15 third person and you referred to difficulties in interpreting. I just

16 wanted to clarify that. I'm -- I beg your pardon. I interrupted just to

17 make that crystal clear at least.

18 A. If you look at another paragraph where I said that it is our duty

19 to determine the function of regions and autonomous districts with a view

20 to preserving the unity of the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Therefore, we should not allow regions to become independent entities

22 separate from the rest of the Serb people; that is to say, that they

23 should not become states. Deputies, you know that, but I am just pointing

24 out here that we have to do this. Let us not turn the regions into states

25 because that was the inclination of the Serbs -- or at least that's the

Page 23162

1 way it was. They wanted small regions that they established to turn into

2 states so that they would be, as I said yesterday, little Napoleons, that

3 is to say small-scale emperors. That's the point of this whole idea.

4 Because a lot of Serbs --

5 Q. Your Honour, I guess -- perhaps I'm wrong here. I guess that you

6 are probably going a bit fast for comfortable interpretation. Maybe I'm

7 wrong?

8 MR. STEWART: Interpreters, am I wrong?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, no.

10 MR. STEWART: I'm not wrong?

11 THE INTERPRETER: You're not wrong.

12 MR. STEWART: Thank you. That's crystal clear as well.

13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this is -- as you've acknowledged yourself, this is

14 a difficult area. It's rather technical, it's rather difficult. In your

15 own interests, as much as everybody else's, I think the slower the better

16 here.

17 A. Thank you. Thank you for having cautioned me.

18 I want to indicate what I said at the beginning of this paragraph.

19 The point is that I, as the speaker, am referring to a danger looming over

20 the Serb people, that regions could behave like states, which would lead

21 to multi-fold danger. Then I emphasised that in the past Serbs were --

22 tended to divide themselves up and to set up statelets. It was necessary

23 for us to unite because outside these regions there would be a lot of

24 Serbs left in other parts that were not these regions. We kept saying

25 that. If there is to be any unification, it would have to be at the level

Page 23163

1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It would be a chamber of peoples or whatever. And

2 then all Serbs would be involved in that kind of organisation.

3 If it would only be the regions that were to be linked up, that

4 would mean that you'd have several tiny statelets within a confederation

5 of regions. That is the gist of what I was saying. This speech refers to

6 that phenomenon within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'll go a bit more directly to the point that

8 arises out of your reference to a common state there. The one legal and

9 state entity -- the one common state that you refer to there confirmed by

10 you as the same thing you're referring to, that would be, wouldn't it,

11 essentially a Serb-run entity. Correct?

12 A. Yes. An entity with a Serb majority. Those are the regions

13 involved.

14 Q. And so when you refer to "one common state with all the other

15 peoples who want to build a happier future with us," are you referring

16 there to the other peoples who -- the non-Serbs who would continue to live

17 within that Serb-run entity, or are you referring to other peoples outside

18 that Serb-run entity?

19 A. I mean that a constitution should be made for this Serb entity,

20 but I'm calling it that only conditionally. However, in that constitution

21 it should say that there should be a segment within a common constitution

22 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It would be easy for you to see that later, that

23 we make this for us and then it's within the joint constitution for

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, too.

25 That's what you said, too. In this constitution and in this

Page 23164

1 common state, if we are to call it that, without the actual

2 characteristics of a state, all of those who wish that we all together

3 build that kind of state should live there.

4 Q. Then you --

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, again, the rest of that -- well, the

6 next few paragraphs, they're not unimportant, Your Honour, by any means,

7 but they're not giving rise directly to questions now.

8 Q. And then you've got point 5 in the margin of your copy,

9 Mr. Krajisnik, I think against a paragraph that begins: "Gentlemen, if we

10 are out-voted ..."

11 Do you see that?

12 MR. STEWART: It's at the top of page 11 of the English, Your

13 Honours.

14 Q. It's a shortish paragraph, that three-line paragraph

15 beginning: "Gentlemen, if we are out-voted in discussions of national

16 interest ..."

17 It should have the number 5 in the margin very close to it.

18 A. Yes, yes, I've found it.

19 Q. Thank you. It says: "Gentlemen, if we are out-voted in

20 discussions of national interest to the Serbian people at the

21 institutional proceedings, the will of the Serbian people will be

22 expressed through the decisions of the Assembly of the Serbian people of

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina."

24 Your reference to "institutional proceedings," you're referring

25 there primarily, are you, to the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly?

Page 23165

1 A. Yes. If we are out-voted in Bosnia-Herzegovina - and that only

2 has to do with vital national interests - then we're going to discuss it

3 at this Assembly and the decisions of that Assembly will be valid.

4 It's not democratic out-voting but an out-voting that violates the

5 constitution, and it's very important to distinguish between the two. It

6 is democratic to have MPs out-vote each other but not to violate the

7 constitution.

8 Q. And you refer then -- the next paragraph you say: "The basic

9 principle we should observe in our activities is not to impose the will of

10 the Serbian people on other peoples. We should represent the legitimate

11 will of the Muslims and Croats, but we must not underestimate our

12 advantages expressed through the realistic ratio of political forces in

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina."

14 What were those advantages, as you saw them?

15 A. Lawyers kept advising us to the effect that we have an advantage

16 because we are within Yugoslavia and that that is a right that supercedes

17 the right of those who wish to leave Yugoslavia. So that's the advantage.

18 Later on we established something completely different, but at

19 that moment it was supposed to be an advantage for the Serb people that

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was in Yugoslavia, and that is the substance of this

21 part of my remarks.

22 Q. Then the next paragraph --

23 MR. STEWART: Again, Your Honours, I'm not going to dwell on the

24 next paragraph but it's important as part of this context.

25 Q. And then at the bottom of page 11 of the English, and it's at a

Page 23166

1 paragraph beginning: "On this occasion, too, I should remark ..."

2 Do you see that short paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik? It's three lines.

3 A. Yes, I see it.

4 Q. Yes.

5 "On this occasion, too, I should remark that there is noticeable

6 rivalry and disunity in some municipalities. All forms of desire for

7 power should be dismissed. We have always lacked unity, and now we need

8 it more than ever."

9 The "we have always lacked unity," "we" is a reference to Serbs,

10 is it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you've remarked about "noticeable rivalry and disunity in some

13 municipalities."

14 How -- what was the degree of disunity and what was the degree of

15 difficulty it was creating?

16 A. There were many examples of rivalry at municipal level and other

17 levels, and then these rivals would create problems for each other. They

18 would be laying blame at each other's door and of course there can be no

19 progress if there is that kind of rivalry. I'm talking about people who

20 are in power in municipalities. That is the only organisational unit that

21 existed, apart from the republic itself. And this primarily refers to

22 Serbs because I did say that it was about Serbs.

23 Q. Were any steps being taken at this time to try and dampen down

24 such rivalry and heal such disunity?

25 A. Mr. Karadzic was the president of the party. These cadres only

Page 23167

1 came from the SDS, from the party. And very often, himself, went or sent

2 his representatives to these municipalities to try to bring about some

3 kind of reconciliation in order to find a solution. He also had the right

4 to dissolve Municipal Boards of the SDS. So there was this ongoing

5 activity in order to bring about reconciliation, and sometimes people were

6 also replaced by others.

7 I'm talking about party affairs now. Of course members of

8 Assemblies, since they belong to political parties, too, most often carry

9 through these decisions that were agreed at party level. So efforts were

10 made to resolve the problem.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you talked about -- well, you mentioned

12 Mr. Krajisnik [sic] going or sending his representatives to municipalities

13 to try to bring about some kind of reconciliation?

14 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Karadzic.

15 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Karadzic, Dr. Karadzic, it's -- my second

16 reference to Krajisnik should be Karadzic.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you talked about Dr. Karadzic going or sending his

18 representatives to municipalities to try to bring about some kind of

19 reconciliation. Did he on any occasion during 1991 send you as his

20 representative to any municipality for that purpose?

21 A. I recall two cases. Once, as president of the Assembly of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I went to Sekovici. That is a purely Serb

23 municipality, and it was the municipal organs that were quarrelling, and

24 it was a state problem, so to speak.

25 And I remember this other situation, I don't remember exactly when

Page 23168

1 it was, when there was a problem between the political party and the

2 municipality in Trebinje. And Mr. Karadzic asked me to accompany him in

3 order to find a diplomatic solution, in order to bring about

4 reconciliation, but we did not succeed.

5 I remember those two examples, but perhaps I attended a similar

6 meeting in Banja Luka or somewhere else with Mr. Karadzic. But I do not

7 remember any other situation when I was sent on my own.

8 I beg your pardon. There was this other problem, too, in Drvar.

9 I remember that. A delegation from Drvar came to see me as president of

10 the Assembly. They were quarrelling over some municipal affairs, and then

11 I resolved the problem autonomously. It was not a party problem but a

12 state problem. I received the delegation, so that was my mediation, so to

13 speak, but it really had nothing to do with the party. That is as much as

14 I can remember.

15 Q. So -- just on this point, Mr. Krajisnik, you've mentioned that you

16 went to Sekovici -- sorry -- have I --

17 A. Sekovici, Trebinje, and I mentioned Drvar, too.

18 Q. Did you in the course of 1991, in the course of your work or

19 duties or responsibilities in the political field, visit any other

20 municipalities outside Sarajevo in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21 A. I had a private problem on account of which I did not travel

22 because my wife had been ill. I don't remember whether I visited some

23 municipality. Maybe I did, but that was as president of the Assembly of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Or perhaps -- I remember a problem being mentioned here of a

Page 23169

1 meeting in Doboj and then the question was put whether I was in Doboj or

2 not, that is towards the Autonomous Region of Doboj. At that time I did

3 attend that meeting, and I will explain that. However, if I did this, it

4 was very, very rarely.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, your last question suggested - at least

6 from what I -- how I interpreted that - that the four events Mr. Krajisnik

7 mentioned were all in 1991. That had not been established yet, but

8 perhaps you could seek confirmation.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes. In fact, Your Honour is -- is absolutely right

10 about that.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, those -- all those visits that you have just

12 mentioned were in 1991. Is that correct?

13 A. Drvar was in 1991. Sekovici was in 1991. I just can't remember

14 when this happened in Trebinje. I can't remember that exactly, whereas

15 the two I mentioned were in 1991 for sure. I think that Doboj was also in

16 1991. I cannot remember the other one.

17 Q. If Trebinje was not in 1991, was it in 1992 or in 1990? Do you

18 see what I mean? Was it later than 1991 or earlier than 1991, if it

19 wasn't in that year?

20 A. No, no. Absolutely it only could have been 1991 or perhaps 1992.

21 And 1990? No. I did not go to any municipalities in 1990.

22 Q. If we go back to the transcript that we were looking at following

23 on from the paragraph we just looked at --

24 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Stewart. If you ask me whether I visited some

25 municipality in 1990, was that your question? My understanding was

Page 23170

1 whether I visited some municipalities in 1991 when I was president of the

2 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it would have been my question but you already

4 answered it because you said you didn't go to any municipalities in 1990.

5 That was going to be my next question --

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. But since you answered it before I asked it, even I don't need to

8 go --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- any further, Mr. Krajisnik.

11 So going back to the transcripts, the paragraph we'd looked at on

12 this occasion, too, I should remark -- we're going to move on from that --

13 that's just the reference point then. The next paragraph is -- well,

14 it's: "Deputies!" In the English at the top of page 12. And then it

15 says: "We can send a message to all the people in Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "We can send a message to all the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina

20 that we want to preserve Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole and as a part

21 of Yugoslavia, because only in a whole Bosnia and Herzegovina and

22 Yugoslavia can all the Serbs, and other peoples, too, live in a single

23 state. If anyone should want to separate Bosnia and Herzegovina from

24 Yugoslavia, he must bear in mind that he will have the entire Serbian

25 people against him."

Page 23171

1 So, Mr. Krajisnik, is this correct. The position is that

2 everything that you were saying a couple of pages previously and that I

3 was asking you questions about, about the Serbian people organising

4 themselves into one legal and state unity, that would only ever arise if

5 this wish to preserve Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole and part of

6 Yugoslavia failed?

7 A. Absolutely. I had emphasised that that was the second stage.

8 Yes, absolutely.

9 Q. And then you continue: "One cannot fight against a people or

10 secede. It is not worth starting something knowing that it is doomed to

11 failure.

12 "It is our wish to live together, but in harmony and love. But if

13 we cannot live together, it would be ruinous to wage war. It would be

14 better to separate. Gentlemen, I would like to paraphrase our former

15 brethren, the Slovenes - 'let's separate so that we can associate again.'"

16 And that separation that you were referring to then, it would be

17 better to separate rather than wage war, that's the separation inherent in

18 what you were saying about organisation into a -- one legal and state

19 entity. Is that right?

20 A. If you allow me to just give a brief introduction to this.

21 In all versions that envisaged the Serbian entity, I was

22 absolutely against any borders separating the three peoples because nobody

23 was closer than these three communities. And if we were unable to find

24 a -- I mean, a mutually acceptable solution, then I don't know. We were

25 telling them: The Serbian people had their own plebiscite. They

Page 23172

1 expressed their will. Don't go against it, otherwise you would have a --

2 you would be faced with a secession. It's better to negotiate, it's

3 better to agree. Any borders separating us would be a disaster. Even if

4 it were physically possible to create borders, it would be against all of

5 our interests. That is the meaning of my words here.

6 And when I invoke the Slovenes, they had said: Let us separate so

7 that we can get together again, something to that effect. Their -- these

8 words were some kind of political marketing, meaning that they wanted to

9 dissolve Yugoslavia in order to establish some other ties.

10 My opinion was that borders made no sense among communities that

11 were so closely knit. That was the meaning of my words. And the answer

12 to your question is yes, but I had to explain it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm looking at the clock.

14 MR. STEWART: That's -- well, I'm entirely in Your Honour's hands

15 of course.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for 20 minutes and re-start at five

17 minutes to 6.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps I should report briefly on the

22 particular --


24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it -- it concerned media reporting of

25 this -- in fact, television reporting of these proceedings in Sarajevo.

Page 23173

1 Mr. Krajisnik has expressed on one or two specific points considerable

2 concern about the way in which his evidence and the current state of these

3 proceedings is being reported an a television channel which he is himself

4 able to see, because in the United Nations Detention Unit some of these

5 channels are made available.

6 Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm sure, as we alive to freedom of --

7 freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and the inevitable in

8 real-life inaccuracies that occur from time to time; however, he's

9 concerned beyond that normal margin which just has to be accepted as part

10 of life.

11 Your Honour, we're really a little bit in Your Honours' hands as

12 to how one should proceed. The -- these concerns does suggest -- they do

13 merit investigation. The first thing to do is really to find out perhaps

14 exactly what was said so that one can form some view. We wonder in the

15 circumstances, Your Honour, whether this is a matter that perhaps the

16 Registry might pursue in the first place. It's an unprecedented problem,

17 as far as we're concerned, Your Honour, here. We don't know the

18 procedures and the normal way, if there is a normal way, of dealing with

19 the matter, but that might be an appropriate course. We could give

20 information on the problem to the Registry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether it's an unprecedented problem,

22 Mr. Stewart. Better reporting on court cases whether in this Tribunal or

23 anywhere else is not unfamiliar to you.

24 MR. STEWART: Oh, Your Honour, absolutely. And we discussed that

25 very point with Mr. Krajisnik, and we're all, Mr. Krajisnik and we are

Page 23174

1 aware that that's a part of life. Yes, of course.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll certainly get in touch with the Registrar

3 himself to see whether -- what position has been taken until now by the

4 Registry. And as far as this Chamber is concerned, I will discuss the

5 matter with my colleagues soon, but I would not give any false

6 expectations as to a Chamber interfering easily in reporting on cases that

7 are before it because it would require an assessment of the fairness not

8 of its -- on trial but of the reporting on it. And even if you would

9 consider it unfair, the freedom of expression, as we all know now and

10 then, leads to what others would consider unfair.

11 So therefore, I don't want to give any false expectation. The

12 only thing I'll -- I'll say that I'll get in touch with the Registrar,

13 report to him that the issue has been raised here, and ask him whether

14 there's any -- what, until now, the attitude has been of the Registry,

15 whether to refrain from any comment or whether to more actively, perhaps,

16 support fair reporting. Of course, I have not seen it, so I have got no

17 judgement at this moment.

18 MR. STEWART: Well, me neither.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Just to say that on the basis of what Mr. Krajisnik

20 has raised. And the other thing is I'll discuss with my fellow Judges

21 whether there is -- whether anything should be done or whether we should

22 not do anything. And I'll discuss that and I'll very briefly report to

23 you on the outcome of that.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I mention one specific point, if

25 Your Honour may or may not think it suitable to raise with the Registrar.

Page 23175

1 There are -- the way the matter is conducted here, there are two possible

2 channels of information that go to the television station. One is that

3 they can be simply watching the trial on the internet. That's an obvious

4 one. The other is that there is some source and channel from within this

5 building. It's really got to be one or the other, effectively.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I know that every television station

7 which is interested in receiving the recordings of this Tribunal is --

8 gets it for free, although there is a delay of half an hour, but it's

9 accessible to whatever television station, from what I understand, and

10 without any payment. So therefore I would say that the -- that's one of

11 the guarantees of the public character of our trials is that all the

12 video -- apart, of course, if it's closed session, but it's made available

13 to the outside world. Yes.

14 MR. STEWART: Yes. We understand it entirely, Your Honour. We

15 certainly don't seek to challenge or undermine that in any way, far from

16 it. But we -- the only question that remains then is whether there is --

17 separately from that whether there is any sort of briefing given --

18 because, after all, this institution does have a -- as we understand it,

19 has a press department, so we simply -- well, that is one of the other

20 possible sources of information. And without pre-empting and without

21 criticising anybody in advance who may or may not be involved, it is

22 necessarily, therefore, if it's a source of information, it's at least, in

23 theory, a source of inaccurate information. But I'm not saying in

24 advance, Your Honour, that is the position.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I know is that the press releases

Page 23176

1 that are issued by the -- by the office are -- may I just finish for a

2 second - are public. You can find them on the web site as well. What

3 other information is given, I'm not aware of it, but I'll certainly pass

4 that portion of your remarks to the -- to the Registrar as well, because

5 the press office has a different name, but our press office is --

6 MR. STEWART: Yes --

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- is under the responsibility of the Registry.

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour might just remember that a long time

9 ago, about two and a half years ago when this trial began, right at the

10 very outset there was an issue raised by the Defence of concern as to an

11 inaccurate report - and it certainly was in that case an inaccurate report

12 in one of the leading English newspapers - where the information certainly

13 did come from within this building. It died a death and nothing was done

14 about it. But, Your Honour, that -- it's always a possibility, and we

15 remember that --

16 JUDGE ORIE: And we have official sources, and I could not for the

17 full 100 per cent exclude that unofficial sources from wherever could play

18 a role as well.

19 Mr. Krajisnik, you wanted to add one thing, I take it?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I can be of assistance to

21 Mr. Stewart.

22 I'm not complaining about the reporting of the press; it's their

23 trade. In the Detention Unit I am able to watch one TV station called

24 Hajat, a TV station from Bosnia-Herzegovina. And for two days running

25 they reported in a completely distorted manner what I have been saying

Page 23177

1 here in the courtroom. There is one trial here, but there is also a media

2 trial in Bosnia. It's not the same thing as the coverage of the Guardian

3 or the Washington Post or some other such newspaper.

4 I would like to tell you exactly what my problem is in a private

5 session. I have frequently been under attack from the press and that is

6 completely normal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'll discuss with the other Judges whether -- to what

8 extent we'll go into the matter and whether we would do that in a public

9 session or in a private session. We'll give you our views on that -- at

10 least the result of our -- of our conversations on the matter, our

11 deliberations on the matter, soon. Yes.

12 Then, Mr. Stewart.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes. A small matter, Your Honour -- well, small,

14 not unimportant to Mr. Krajisnik, but there's one aspect of what he told

15 us which he doesn't wish, and reasonably enough, doesn't wish to be

16 ventilated in public.

17 Your Honour, in the first place what we propose is that we would

18 raise that in an e-mail which we'd copy to the Prosecution, of course, in

19 the usual way. It's a relatively narrowly confined aspect of this.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll --

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: An e-mail of the type you indicated will be read by

23 the Chamber.

24 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik.

Page 23178

1 MR. STEWART: And Your Honours.

2 Q. Returning to the 2nd Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly that we

3 were looking at. We're at page 12 of the English transcript, and it's the

4 passage we were looking at before the break, Mr. Krajisnik, where you had

5 said: "It is our wish to live together but in harmony and love. But if

6 we cannot live together it would be ruinous to wage war."

7 You see that paragraph, do you? It is just a reference point,

8 Mr. Krajisnik, so we can work from there. Do you see that paragraph? You

9 end up saying: "Let's separate so that we can associate again."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. If we go on then, three paragraphs from that -- no,

12 two paragraphs, you say: "On our way to achieving the goals of the

13 Serbian people we accept all friends, we accept everybody except traitors

14 and opponents.

15 "Traitors and outcasts are the most difficult opponents. We would

16 like to send the following message to all those who falter or are neutral,

17 weak, or misguided and who do not feel like traitors: 'Today you still

18 have time, tomorrow will be too late.'

19 "Join us in creating a common state and you will be proud that

20 you are not state destroyers, but state creators."

21 Mr. Krajisnik, did you have in referring to "traitors," did you

22 have any particular people or group of people in mind?

23 A. When I talked about that kind of people I always have specific

24 persons in mind. In every ethnic community there are such people, and

25 likewise at that time there was Serbs who were greater opponents of Serbs

Page 23179

1 than even the most radical Croats or Muslims were.

2 Q. What -- in this particular context at this particular time, what

3 position, in your view, on the part of a Serb constituted treachery?

4 A. I'll try to be quite specific. If it is obvious that the

5 constitution has been violated to the detriment of the Serbs, and if one

6 of the Serbian MPs from whatever party rises in parliament and propounds a

7 totally opposite view for some purely private reasons, the private reason

8 being that under the previous system which had a system of proportionate

9 representation from which that person benefitted, those people always had

10 it better than some other people who could never actually come to the

11 fore, even if -- even though they would have represented Serb interests

12 much better than those actually occupying the posts. They were actually

13 working against Serb interests.

14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, would you turn on to number 6 in the margin of your

15 copy which is in the middle of page 15 of the English.

16 A. I found it.

17 Q. And then we see a paragraph beginning: "The Main Commission for

18 the plebiscite of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina at its

19 meeting in Sarajevo on 11th November 1991 reviewed the reports of the

20 municipal committees for the plebiscite on results of the plebiscite of

21 the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina held on 9th and 10th

22 November ... in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and stated the

23 following ..."

24 And then figures are given that a total of 1 million, then 64.157

25 citizens were registered, and then just going down to the figure at the

Page 23180

1 bottom, a total of 1.162.032 citizens of Serbian nationality voted in the

2 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and of those 1.161.146 voted in

3 favour, 398 voted against, 488 were invalid.

4 Had you been expecting a result of that nature and scale before

5 the plebiscite?

6 A. Yes. Those were approximately the results, although they are on

7 the optimistic side.

8 Q. Do you mean they were better than you had expected when you

9 say "on the optimistic side"?

10 A. Yes. Slightly better than we had forecast.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, the results are set out in some detail

12 here in figures. I'm certainly not going to dwell on those, but would

13 invite Your Honours to note them, and they include results from outside

14 Bosnia as well.

15 Q. May we go on, Mr. Krajisnik, to where you would find number 7 in

16 the margin.

17 MR. STEWART: Which, Your Honours, is at page 25 of the English,

18 where a decision is to be proposed by the vice-president Dr. Milanovic.

19 And the propose is that the -- "based on the will" --

20 Q. Do you find that, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Milanovic speaking? Thank

21 you.

22 A. I found it.

23 Q. He says: "Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, members of the

24 Assembly, dear guests. Based on the will expressed by the Serbian people

25 of Bosnia and Herzegovina at the plebiscite held on 9th and 10th November

Page 23181

1 1991 and the conclusions of the Assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina adopted on 24th October 1991 and on 21st November 1991,

3 the Assembly of the Serbian people for Bosnia and Herzegovina hereby

4 adopts the following."

5 And: "Decision." And number I is: "Municipalities, local

6 communes, and settlements where the plebiscite was held of the Serbian and

7 other peoples to remain in the common state of Yugoslavia together with

8 the Republic of Serb, Republic of Montenegro, the Serbian Autonomous

9 Districts," again it must be plural, "of Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja, and

10 Western Srem was held on 9th and 10th November 1991 where more than

11 50 per cent of the registered citizens of Serbian nationality voted for a

12 common state, and where citizens of other peoples and nationalities voted

13 to stay in the common state of Yugoslavia shall be considered the

14 territory of the Federal State of Yugoslavia."

15 Mr. Krajisnik, we can easily infer, can't we, from the fact that

16 there are applause, and then all deputies rise, long applause, that that

17 gained immediate and enthusiastic approval? That's right, isn't it?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. The -- well, let's -- let's read the next bit first.

20 Number II: "Parts of the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

21 item I of this decision, together with the territory of the Republic

22 of Srpska" -- Serbia, I beg your pardon, "the Republic of Serbia and the

23 Republic of Montenegro, Serb Autonomous Region Krajina, SAO Krajina,

24 SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, make up the core of the common

25 state of Yugoslavia."

Page 23182

1 And then III: "Municipalities, local communes, and settlements in

2 which the plebiscite was not held may vote in a new plebiscite or based on

3 the decision of the Municipal Assembly may remain in the common state from

4 item I of this decision or may be organised in a different way."

5 So, Mr. Krajisnik, going back, then, seeing those elements

6 together, but going back to number I, the result, as stated, of this

7 decision would be that where "more than 50 per cent of the registered

8 citizens of Serbian nationality voted for a common state," that

9 municipality, commune, or settlement was to be considered the territory of

10 the federal state of Yugoslavia. That's plain from the wording, isn't it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So, for example, is this correct: That if the Serbian -- if the

13 Serbs in a particular municipality were in a minority and that

14 municipality as a whole -- but if more than half of them had voted for a

15 common state, then logically their municipality was to be considered

16 territory of the federal state of Yugoslavia. Is that correct?

17 A. I think this requires an explanation.

18 A plebiscite is a way of -- is a way for a people in one territory

19 to express its will. In this case, wherever Serbs had declared their will

20 in one territory to stay in Yugoslavia, that area was to be part of

21 Yugoslavia. But the next article deals with exactly how this was going to

22 be arranged. The first article just notes that the Serbs in a particular

23 territory had expressed their will to stay in Yugoslavia, but it doesn't

24 mean -- it doesn't mean that it will be so, because negotiations with the

25 other two sides have yet to begin. There is a huge difference between a

Page 23183

1 plebiscite and a referendum.

2 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.

3 [Defence counsel confer]


5 Q. Could you, Mr. Krajisnik, explain what you see as that huge

6 difference between a plebiscite and a referendum.

7 A. A plebiscite has the purpose of establishing the will of the

8 people in one area and, once expressed, this decision of the people has to

9 be verified, or ratified, by the Assembly.

10 But if you hold the referendum, like it was done in Bosnia, then

11 it's a final decision with executive force. It has to be enforced. In

12 our situation, we had adopted at a referendum a decision that was contrary

13 to the plebiscite. The Muslim side made a completely contrary decision,

14 saying that Bosnia has to be independent. And that's the basic difference

15 between the plebiscite and the referendum.

16 Q. So -- because, Mr. Krajisnik, the terminologies are used in all

17 sorts of different ways and all sorts of different places, and so on. But

18 as far as you are using those terms, it's essentially this: A referendum

19 you regard as binding then on the other political organs? That's the --

20 the people have spoken. They've given an answer to the referendum, and

21 that's got to be implemented. Is that -- that's your summary of a

22 referendum, is it?

23 A. Yes. A referendum was held in Canada, in Quebec. If that vote

24 had won 51 per cent, it -- Quebec would have become an independent state.

25 In our state, if you have to express your opinion whether you want taxes

Page 23184

1 raised or something else, then you just get the opinion of the people. We

2 wanted Serbs to tell us whether they wanted to stay within Yugoslavia, and

3 we got their opinion. In all areas that were polled, those people wanted

4 to stay within Yugoslavia, but in order for their decision to be

5 implemented there had to be negotiations within Bosnia and Herzegovina,

6 with the other two ethnic communities, and that's the way it goes.

7 Later, in 1992, a referendum was held and that decision had to be

8 implemented. That's the difference between the way this operation was

9 carried out by Serbs, on the one hand, and Croats and Muslims on the

10 other. I don't know what difference there exists between the terms in

11 other foreign languages.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the problem. You have clearly explained what

13 you consider to be a plebiscite and what you consider to be a referendum,

14 whereas in many other countries they would use it in different ways. You

15 would have a consultative referendum, for example, which means just

16 consulting the people. But you make a difference between consulting the

17 people or to give the decision in the hands of the people, who would then,

18 by majority, make that decision. And the last you called a referendum.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that whenever the issue is further raised

21 that it should always be clear whether we are talking about consultation

22 of the people or whether we are talking about a decision made by a vote of

23 the people by majority.

24 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour, and I'll do my very best in

25 any questions to be clear. Your Honour --

Page 23185

1 JUDGE ORIE: Terminology --

2 MR. STEWART: -- is seeing well that I had in mind that we would

3 talk about the question of whether it would be a binding referendum or a

4 non-binding referendum. That's just precisely how it might operate.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, I know Mr. Josse wants to ...

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 [Trial Chamber confers]


10 Q. So let me give you the hypothetical example, Mr. Krajisnik - you

11 may say it's not hypothetical - that I had mentioned a few minutes ago.

12 So in a situation -- say you've got a municipality,

13 municipality X. Municipality X where the Serbs are in a minority but

14 there has been this plebiscite conducted in that municipality among the

15 Serbs and more than 50 per cent of the Serbs have voted yes in this

16 plebiscite for a common state. Under the literal terms of part I of this

17 decision, their municipality is to be considered the territory of the

18 federal state of Yugoslavia. That's how it would literally apply, isn't

19 it?

20 A. If Serbs were a minority in that municipality, there are smaller

21 administrative units called local communes. And if that area had held a

22 plebiscite, then it had to be territorialised in some way. We didn't have

23 the right to say: This area belonged to Yugoslavia if Serbs were in a

24 minority there.

25 There are many towns where one ethnic community was in a majority

Page 23186

1 but overall speaking throughout that area in terms of the land register

2 another ethnic community was the majority. So if Serbs were the absolute,

3 so to say, overall majority in that area, then that area would be

4 considered part of Yugoslavia. It was not enough for Serbs to be a

5 majority just in one little unit.

6 That's why there is a difference between maps based on land

7 registers that we proposed and one map that was produced here by a witness

8 who explained that those were maps until municipality. I believe it was

9 Witness Okun. That was an important difference. And whenever we

10 negotiated, we used maps based on land registers. Within one municipality

11 you could look at one smaller unit or at the municipality or area overall.

12 I don't know if I managed to explain this clearly enough.

13 Q. Can I ask you about point III or part III of this decision, the

14 one that starts: "Municipalities, local communes, and settlements," this

15 is top of page 26 in the English. Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik, we read

16 it a few minutes ago: "Municipalities, local communes, and settlements in

17 which the plebiscite was not held" --

18 A. Yes, I see that.

19 Q. And they went to a -- "may vote in a new plebiscite or based on

20 the decision of the Municipal Assembly may remain in the common state from

21 item I of this decision or may be organised in a different way."

22 That phrase, "may be organised in a different way," was that

23 intended to be just entirely general or were specific, alternative ways of

24 organising themselves actually in contemplation?

25 A. That is precisely the question that I have just answered. Local

Page 23187

1 communes within municipalities where Serbs were overall in a minority also

2 had to declare their will. And this phrase, "organised in a different

3 way," if that municipality did not take part in the plebiscite, whatever

4 they said, whether they wanted to stay in Yugoslavia or not, it was up to

5 them to decide how they wanted to be organised.

6 The plebiscite was over. We knew who was in favour of staying in

7 Yugoslavia, whereas the rest had to state their opinion. This was an

8 opportunity for those who did not take part in the plebiscite to make it

9 plain what they wanted. The plebiscite was only for those who were in

10 favour of staying in Yugoslavia.

11 Q. Now, part IV, which we haven't read yet. Then part IV that

12 follows on: "Dr. Radovan Karadzic, Dr. Nikola Koljevic, Dr. Biljana

13 Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Dr. Aleksa Buha, and Dr. Vojislav Maksimovic,

14 as representatives of the Serbian people, are authorised to negotiate with

15 representatives of the Muslim and Croatian people on the organisation of

16 the future common life in the territory of the present Socialist Republic

17 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 "In negotiations with the representatives of the Muslim and

19 Croatian people, the representatives of the Serbian people from the

20 preceding paragraph shall recognise the interests and national decisions

21 of other nations in regard to which community they wish to live in, and

22 they may be opposed to the Muslim and Croatian people forming separate

23 state entities or a common state."

24 Now, the question I'm going to ask concentrates on that last bit,

25 Mr. Krajisnik, that they -- this is an authority given to them,

Page 23188

1 clearly. "They may be opposed to the Muslim and Croatian people forming

2 separate state entities or a common state."

3 By reference to "separate state entities," did that mean the

4 equivalent for Muslims and Croats of that single state entity that we

5 considered a while before the last break, the Serb entity that had been

6 under discussion? Was that the equivalent?

7 A. Well, this was written by lawyers, and lawyers tend to complicate

8 even very simple matters.

9 This was supposed to mean: We are not imposing our will on other

10 people. Let them organise themselves as they wish. Let them state their

11 wishes as they please. We have stated their opinion -- our opinion, now

12 you state yours. When the American administration came to support the

13 union between Muslims and Croats, that became evident. Nobody should

14 impose their will on anybody, and even this additional sentence that can

15 now be interpreted in various ways, the crux of the matter was that

16 they -- it was up to them to decide what they wanted and we were not going

17 to tell them what to do.

18 I meant Serb lawyers. I didn't mean lawyers in general.

19 Q. Of course I was not going to jeopardise our respect to

20 reconciliation, Mr. Krajisnik, by commenting.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I would not mind, Mr. Krajisnik, and I would not even

22 contradict that there is no merit at all in it.

23 Please continue.

24 MR. STEWART: I'm not saying a word, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can we go to marginal number 8 in your copy, which

Page 23189

1 is the top of page 28 of the English. Just to note, in fact, the fact

2 that the -- it records: "The Assembly unanimously adopted" -- I beg your

3 pardon, Mr. Krajisnik?

4 A. Excuse me, is that 6 or 8?

5 Q. 8, yes. It's not much further on. It's about a page and a bit,

6 possibly, further on. It's -- simply, it's in capital letters in the

7 English. But it's simply to -- to note that: "The Assembly unanimously

8 adopted the decision on the territories who decided in the plebiscite" --

9 A. Yes, yes. I'm sorry. I found it.

10 Q. That -- well, that's just to note that.

11 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honours, please.

12 Q. And then about a further page on, number 9 in the

13 margin: "Decision on the verification of the proclaimed Serbian

14 Autonomous Regions in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

15 And that --

16 A. Is that this passage: "The Assembly unanimously adopts the

17 decision about territories that have stated in the plebiscite they were

18 staying in Yugoslavia"?

19 Q. That was the first passage - that's exactly right - against

20 number 8, Mr. Krajisnik. It's just to note that. Yes.

21 And then number 9, moving on about probably a page, I think,

22 something like that. And then it's -- in fact, it's Dr. Branko Milanovic

23 who is putting forward this -- well, it's a draft decision that he's

24 putting before the meeting, a decision on the verification of the

25 proclaimed Serbian Autonomous Regions and the -- it says: "Decisions on

Page 23190

1 the proclamation of the Serbian Autonomous Regions in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina are hereby verified," that's the proposal.

3 And they are: "Autonomous Region of Krajina," and then all the

4 municipalities are listed. I won't read them out, Mr. Krajisnik; too

5 painful for everybody.

6 And then about six lines down: "The Serbian Autonomous Region of

7 Herzegovina."

8 And then about three lines down in the English certainly, on

9 page 29: "The Serbian Autonomous Region of Romanija and Birac."

10 And then three lines on in the English: "Serbian Autonomous

11 District of Semberija."

12 Another couple of lines on: "The Serbian Autonomous District of

13 Northern Bosnia," and then the municipalities are listed.

14 And then Part II: "The Serbian autonomous districts on the

15 previous item are part of Bosnia and Herzegovina as federal units in the

16 common state of Yugoslavia."

17 And then III: "Rights and obligations," and so on," are to be

18 regulated by a separate decision."

19 And then IV: "The status of the municipalities in the city of

20 Sarajevo and parts of the city of Sarajevo" --

21 A. I'm sorry, I haven't got these two pages here, that's why I'm a

22 bit confused. I have page 31 and then page 33 of the text. That's why I

23 don't have the other part.

24 Q. You might have been confused, Mr. Krajisnik, my fault, by my

25 reference to page numbers in the English, which probably doesn't

Page 23191

1 correspond to your own language --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note we have the same problem.

3 It's 31 and then 33 --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just the other way around.

5 It's first page 33 and then 32. So it's just that it has to be put back.

6 Sorry.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would this resolve the problem --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.


10 Q. Is it that the pages are just in the wrong order --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Swapped, yes.

12 MR. STEWART: -- for you, Mr. Krajisnik

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what Mr. Krajisnik told us and that's

14 what the interpreters told us, too, yes.

15 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. I was trying to follow it here as well,

16 Your Honour. Oh, yes. Okay. Got it. Right. Thank you.

17 Q. And so then do you see part IV then of that draft decision: "The

18 status of the municipalities in the city of Sarajevo and parts of the city

19 of Sarajevo in which the Serbian people are a majority shall be determined

20 by a separate decision."

21 You see that Mr. Krajisnik?

22 A. No, no. IV is -- oh, yes, yes.

23 Q. Was it contemplated at that time that that was a separate decision

24 which would follow quite soon, or was it that the complexities affecting

25 Sarajevo would probably require a very considerable time to sort out?

Page 23192

1 A. Sarajevo, from the very outbreak of the crisis, was a separate

2 problem. And to the end of the war it was always on the agenda, so to

3 speak. I can say that in most proposals there was the proposal to

4 transform Sarajevo into two wholes, not to divide it as some people have

5 imputed, but two parts where there would be municipalities with a Serb

6 majority and a territory with a Muslim majority. Two-thirds would belong

7 to the Muslim majority municipalities and one-third to the Serb majority

8 municipalities. And that is why it was stated here that the question of

9 Sarajevo would be resolved in due course because that was the most painful

10 issue of all. Every agreement envisaged that later.

11 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it seems something may have been

14 omitted in the translation. Mr. Sladojevic suggests to me that there was

15 a reference to the inner city in that answer.

16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you make some specific reference to the inner

17 city in the course of your answer?

18 A. I think I did not mention the inner city, the centre of the city.

19 I talked about Sarajevo, that it would be transformed into two wholes, so

20 it would have been different than it was before.

21 Of course, Pale was always excluded because they had reached a

22 decision to become a separate entity as a municipality that was on the

23 outskirts of town.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you explain, when you talk about

25 two-thirds -- you talk about two separate -- into two wholes. Two-thirds

Page 23193

1 would belong to the Muslim majority municipalities and one-third to the

2 Serb majority municipalities, but you say that that wasn't dividing it.

3 Could you explain in what way an arrangement under which two-thirds would

4 belong to Muslim majority and one-third to Serbs is -- but was not a

5 division.

6 A. First of all, Sarajevo was always divided into municipalities. So

7 it wasn't ever a single whole. We called for a different transformation

8 because there were many Serbs and Serbs were not in power anywhere. They

9 were a minority everywhere except for Pale and Ilijas, and we called for

10 the establishment of smaller municipalities because there was some

11 municipalities with a population of 150.000 people where these local

12 problems could be resolved.

13 Now, why is this not a division? If you remain within Bosnia,

14 then there's no division. It can simply be as if that municipality

15 belongs to one entity or the other. I'm talking about all plans where it

16 had been envisaged to have a solution for Sarajevo that two-thirds of this

17 Sarajevo without Pale should belong to the Muslim/Croat entity, the

18 Muslim/Croat side, so to speak, and one-third would belong to the Serb

19 side. And you have that in every agreement that was reached.

20 Until that is reached -- now, why was I saying all of this?

21 The UN, the United Nations, administration was supposed to be

22 there until a solution is solved because it was impossible to resolve the

23 issue of Sarajevo together with all of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Mr. Owen described this the best in his book "The Balkan Odyssey."

25 You can see the maps there and everything else.

Page 23194

1 Q. Could you turn, please -- it's quite a long way on,

2 Mr. Krajisnik. It might be --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, if you are moving to another subject,

4 I'd rather spend the last couple of minutes on the -- in private session.

5 Mr. Krajisnik is invited to remain here, but then again as an accused to

6 follow the -- but I would --

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, Your Honour, I am. Of course. No

8 problem.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think D171 and 173, if I'm well -- if I

10 remember well.

11 MR. JOSSE: I'm not sure we're going to need to go into private

12 session because my learned friend Mr. Harmon tells me he has no objection.

13 We've discussed it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, nevertheless -- was that -- I think it was a

15 document where the Chamber would not have major difficulties in --

16 MR. JOSSE: Clearly if the Chamber needs reminding of the

17 contents, then we will need to go into private session. We're in -- well,

18 I'm in Your Honour's hands.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What we also could do is to see whether the

20 parties agree on the matter. If that is the case, then the Chamber of

21 course will look closer into D171 and 173 and whether it could follow the

22 parties in this respect. If not, we would revisit the matter and then in

23 private session.

24 MR. JOSSE: Of course I'm content with that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

Page 23195

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we had no objection to both of those

2 exhibits being under seal.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll look at the matter, and we'll give either

4 our decision to you or we'll revisit the matter in private session.

5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then --

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll finish for the day.

9 Mr. Krajisnik, the same instruction which I will repeat quite many

10 times in the future not to speak with anyone about the testimony already

11 given or still to be given.

12 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.

13 And we'll be in Courtroom I tomorrow.

14 We adjourn.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

17 April, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.