1 Friday, 28 April 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry for the logistical problems the Chamber was

13 facing for a minute.

14 After the first break, we'll come back to the issue dealt with in

15 an e-mail, but at this moment the Defence is invited to proceed with the

16 examination-in-chief of you, Mr. Krajisnik, but not until after I've

17 reminded you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you've

18 given at the beginning of your testimony.

19 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

20 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you find, please, if you've got -- you should

23 have the same document that we finished with yesterday, marginal note 17.

24 MR. STEWART: I think I ought to note, Your Honour, that

25 Mr. Krajisnik's got a file with him with a number of matters in it. It

1 might be Your Honour might just want to clarify that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll just get the document out.

4 Could you please just remind me of what document?

5 MR. STEWART:

6 Q. Yes, it's the transcript of the second Serb Assembly Session, the

7 one of the 21st of November, 1991. Yes, I understand Mr. Krajisnik,

8 you're just extracting that for immediate purposes. And it will be

9 towards the end. If you work from the back, Mr. Krajisnik, you should

10 quite quickly come across a marginal note 17. So sorry, page 49 of the

11 English. It's already up on the screen as well, from Mr. Slavojevic, Your

12 Honours.

13 A. I found 16 but I really can't find 17.

14 Q. If you go on about a page from 16, Mr. Krajisnik, you should find

15 a heading that says that it was Mr. Velibor Ostojic who was speaking. If

16 you find that name, it will be there.

17 A. Unfortunately, I have empty pages here, so I guess that's the

18 mistake. 114 and 115 is what I have, and 116, 117 -- oh, I'm sorry.

19 Q. I don't know whether the booth can help, Your Honour. It's 49 of

20 the English, but in the B/C/S it's a point where the assembly unanimously

21 adopted the proposed decision on support to the JNA and mobilisation, and

22 then Mr. Velibor Ostojic starts to speak.

23 MR. TIEGER: Should be page 52 of the B/C/S SA 01-205.

24 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you catch that? Page 52, it should be, in your

1 document.

2 Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

3 A. Oh, yes. There is two parts. That was the problem.

4 Unfortunately, it is not on page 52.

5 Q. Well, fortunately you found it, Mr. Krajisnik.

6 A. No, no. On page 52 is 008681.

7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, have you found the bit where Mr. Ostojic starts

8 speaking?

9 A. No, I didn't find it.

10 Q. Oh, okay.

11 A. These pages are empty. Maybe that's causing confusion. See?

12 This is 52. Yes. I received the page from the usher.

13 Q. Good. Thanks to all concerned in sorting that out.

14 Mr. Ostojic -- it says: "Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen,

15 members of the Assembly, dear guests, you just observed in several

16 speeches by our deputies that we are mentioning the media in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The last speech was a blatant example of the way the

18 media in Bosnia-Herzegovina treat the Serbian people in this republic.

19 "Allow me several minutes to clarify my proposal with several

20 examples.

21 "Lately the media in Bosnia and Herzegovina, having inherited

22 (the continuity of) the previous editorial policies, have been used for

23 political power and pressure over the Serbian people and their

24 representatives.

25 "The Serbian people in BH are really under an information

1 blockade. An enormous penetration of the media from other environments

2 has resulted in recognisable undertones that are anti-Serbian and

3 anti-Yugoslav in the media in Bosnia and Herzegovina. These undertones

4 were reported uncritically from the media of war-engulfed Croatia; the

5 media being anti-Serbian and anti-Yugoslav, have sown hatred towards the

6 Serbian people and have sown such insults that really insult the Serbian

7 people both as people and as a nation."

8 Mr. Krajisnik, I don't know, you seem to be -- well, I don't know

9 if struggling is the right word, but you seem to be having to find

10 something still.

11 A. You told me it was the SDS Assembly and I put it in front of me.

12 It must have been the Assembly of the Serbian people. Could you just tell

13 me which document that is?

14 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik --

15 JUDGE ORIE: If I could help you out, Mr. Krajisnik, it is the

16 assembly of the -- let me just see -- of the Serbian -- it's the Second

17 Session of the -- the Second Session of the Assembly of the Serbian people

18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You'll find it at the bottom of page 52, going on

19 to page 53, and the part that was read at -- with the words "nacionalno"

20 on the third line of page 53. In the B/C/S version.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I found it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We will give you time to re-read it, the portion,

23 Mr. --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard Mr. Stewart and I can

25 answer.

1 MR. STEWART:

2 Q. You'll wait for the question first probably, Mr. Krajisnik. So --

3 before you answer.

4 Mr. Krajisnik, the question is: Had you -- you personally -- had

5 you at this time noticed anything to support what Mr. Ostojic was saying

6 that the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina were really under an

7 information blockade? And if so, what?

8 A. I shared the opinion of Mr. Ostojic, but I just wish to add one

9 thing. Mr. Ostojic had worked in Radio and Television Sarajevo and had a

10 lot more information, so that his contribution is better and more edifying

11 than anything I could have learned from the media.

12 Sarajevo newspapers and the media were imposing a blockade on Serb

13 interests vis-a-vis what was going on in Croatia, so I do support the

14 points made by Mr. Ostojic, but he had much better and broader information

15 than I could have had as a regular citizen.

16 Q. So what -- a blockade is a reasonably general word, Mr. Krajisnik.

17 When you say that the media were imposing a blockade on Serb interests

18 vis-a-vis what was going on in Croatia, are you able to be more specific

19 about what the practical steps were that were being taken by the media?

20 A. The prevailing impression among the Serbs is that the Muslim side

21 got all the advantages and since their interests were closely linked with

22 Croatia's interests, it seemed that all the information coming from

23 Croatia that would have been to Serbs' advantage was blocked and only

24 information favourable to Croats was allowed to seep through.

25 A special problem was the radio and television in

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbs had a lot of complaints about their

2 reporting, as far as Serb interests are concerned. That problem, if I may

3 add, still exists in the federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the

4 greatest number of the media that are located in Sarajevo, they are

5 concentrated in Sarajevo.

6 Q. And then further on, in this transcript, we see it's about a --

7 more than a page further on, it will be in both the English and the

8 B/C/S. It's towards the foot of page 51 of the English.

9 Do you see, Mr. Krajisnik, "Decision. The Assembly of the Serbian

10 people of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and the decision is decision on the

11 motion to divide property of the joint television channels? Do you see

12 that?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 Q. And over -- well, carrying on, it's over the page in the

15 English, 52. That decision was apparently adopted. Was there -- was

16 there anyone among the senior figures in the SDS who was primarily in

17 charge of this particular issue about the media and such matters as this

18 motion to divide the television channels?

19 A. I don't recall that anybody was in charge, but I know that

20 Mr. Ostojic was minister for information on the cabinet of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina and that was his department on the level of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so he was probably the most concerned with the

23 implementation of this decision that never actually came to pass.

24 Q. Yes. Had he actually been appointed by this time as minister,

25 Mr. Krajisnik?

1 A. Mr. Ostojic was minister for information on the government of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Therefore, media were under his competence. That was

3 his province in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 Q. I'm sorry, I think that was a slip in my mind, Mr. Krajisnik. He

5 was subsequently appointed minister of information for Republika Srpska,

6 wasn't he?

7 A. Yes. Yes. I'm talking about this time. He had been in a

8 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the beginning, as minister for

9 information. And then when the first government of the Serbian Republic

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina he got that post. But that happened later.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, having only very recently asked you to find that

12 document, you can now put that on one side because we are going to move on

13 to a different document.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, we are moving to the next session, the

15 Third Session of the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 That was dated the 11th, or held on the 11th of December, 1991. And, Your

17 Honours, so far as we can track it, this transcript is not yet in

18 evidence.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Do I see on the -- is it not P65 tab 62, the 11th of

20 December? That's what my material says.

21 MR. STEWART: We think those are just the minutes, Your Honour.

22 Everybody stands to be corrected nearly all the time in relation to the

23 paper in this case, but we believe those are the minutes rather than the

24 more extensive item of the transcript.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's the transcript, yes, yes. Thank you. Oh,

1 yes. It's the stenographic record, yes.

2 So therefore it needs a number, Mr. Registrar -- Mr. Tieger.

3 MR. TIEGER: I can't resolve this issue with any precision. I can

4 only add my recollection that this session was referred to at various

5 times without -- by reference to what I understood as a pre-existing

6 number. So at this point, I suppose we should add a number, but we will

7 have to check to see if in fact it is a stenographic record rather than

8 the minutes. The transcript received a number --

9 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript. Let me just check. The numbering --

10 there might be a difference, I don't know, but the numbering of this

11 transcript seems to go from page 1 to 74, whereas the copy you provided us

12 goes until page 75 but starts at page 2, whereas the other one started --

13 it looks very much the same but -- so therefore before we assign a number

14 to it, let's just -- I'll use the two copies and see whether it's already

15 in evidence, yes or no.

16 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we can certainly match the

17 Prosecution for lack of precision at any point as we do here.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. STEWART: So, Your Honour, we'll proceed on this document.

20 We've done the usual exercise of giving Mr. Krajisnik his own language

21 version with marginal notes, just as a reference point. And

22 Mr. Sladojevic has got copies available.

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, very early in this document, just to remind you,

24 this is 11th of December, Third Session of the Assembly of Serbian

25 people. Very early in this document, on about the first two pages, it's

1 towards the bottom of page 4 in the English, there is a marginal note 1.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm just inviting Your Honours please

3 to note that as the lead in to where we are going. It's a recommendation

4 to the armed forces on the preservation of the territorial integrity of

5 Yugoslavia.

6 "1. The Assembly of the Serbian people gives its unreserved

7 support to the Yugoslav People's Army and its efforts to preserve the

8 territorial integrity of Yugoslavia within its border."

9 And then I go to part of 2: "Proceeding from the role of the JNA,

10 Yugoslav People's Army, under the constitution, the Assembly of the

11 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina rightly expects the Yugoslav People's

12 Army to extend all the necessary protection in the Defence of human lives

13 and property in case of danger to Serb territories in Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina and to the Serb people as well as other peoples living in

15 these territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina from whoever and from wherever

16 it might come from and calls upon it to do so."

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Stewart repeat, please, this passage?

18 Thank you.

19 MR. STEWART: Just the last sentence.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The whole passage. The French booth was not

21 able to follow you. Thank you very much.

22 MR. STEWART: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. I really was trying to

23 go sufficiently slowly but I'm requested.

24 "Recommendation. To the armed forces on the preservation of the

25 territorial integrity of Yugoslavia.

1 "1. The Assembly of the Serbian people gives its unreserved

2 support to the Yugoslav People's Army and its efforts to preserve the

3 territorial integrity of Yugoslavia within its borders and with the people

4 wishing to remain in it..."

5 And I didn't read then the last couple of lines.

6 And going to 2: "Proceeding from the role of the JNA, Yugoslav

7 People's Army, under the constitution, the Assembly of the Serbian people

8 in Bosnia and Herzegovina rightly expects the Yugoslav People's Army to

9 extend all the necessary protection in the defence of human lives and

10 property in case of danger to Serb territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina

11 and to the Serb people as well as other peoples living in these

12 territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina from whomever and from wherever it

13 might come from and calls upon it to do so."

14 And then, Mr. Krajisnik, you're the chairman there referred to,

15 item 1 and so on. And then Mr. Slobodan Bijelic speaks. And the proposal

16 he's putting before the meeting, we can pick up with the paragraph that

17 begins -- it's capital letters in English, just below halfway down

18 page 5: "Public appeal or request to the Yugoslav People's Army to defend

19 with all the means at its disposal the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina

20 and the citizens and material wealth in it as an integral part of the

21 state of Yugoslavia in which a plebiscite was conducted of the Serbian

22 people and other citizens at which they opted to remain in the joint state

23 of Yugoslavia and a decision adopted -- and a decision adopted by the

24 Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina on the

25 territories of municipalities, local communities and settlements in Bosnia

1 and Herzegovina which are considered to be the territory of the federal

2 state of Yugoslavia."

3 And then the next paragraph: "The appeal refers to the entire

4 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina except for the territories of the

5 municipalities of Grude, Ljubuski, Listica, Citluk, Kresevo, Posusje,

6 Fojnica and Gornji Vakuf."

7 But Mr. Krajisnik, what are the characteristics of -- well, indeed

8 if they have such characteristics. What are the characteristics of those

9 municipalities listed there which led them to be excepted from this

10 particular appeal to the Yugoslav People's Army?

11 A. These are municipalities with a Croat majority. And I suppose the

12 plebiscite hasn't been organised there at all, nor did citizens express

13 their will. That's the answer to your question. And if you need any more

14 details, I'll explain.

15 Q. Yes.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, without going to the maps, Your Honours

17 will readily see from the maps we have that, for example, if I may just

18 give this information, Grude, Ljubuski, Listica, they are down in the

19 southwest of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so Your Honours would see from the maps

20 where they lay in relation to Croatia.

21 The -- then if you go to marginal note 3, Mr. Krajisnik, at --

22 it's page 6 of the English. Did you find marginal note 3, Mr. Krajisnik?

23 A. I found it on page 6. 938 are the last digits -- 038.

24 Q. I don't know about that, Mr. Krajisnik. Can you find a

25 handwritten number 3 in the margin of your copy?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it's Mr. -- It's Dr. Milutin Najdanovic who is speaking. He

3 says, if we -- well, he said: "It is dreadful even to think of the

4 possibility that Germany might intervene in this war. Are we prepared for

5 such a possibility?"

6 Mr. Krajisnik, was that -- was that some -- was that some serious

7 suggestion that Germany might actually become involved in action in a war?

8 A. No. Certainly not. He meant the Second World War, making this

9 comparison. The Yugoslav People's Army had a mission to defend Yugoslavia

10 from outside enemies, outside aggressors, and he used Germany here in a

11 rather clumsy way.

12 Q. It goes on: "If we manage to defend our territories, to give the

13 majority of our people the chance to live together, have we studied all

14 the alternatives this entails? Are we for a reduced Yugoslavia or are we

15 for an integral Serbia? What would this community be with the Muslims and

16 what without them? Will the so-called Serbian lands be a federation or

17 will we be a unitary state of the Serbian people?"

18 Was Mr. Najdanovic, was he including among those possibilities

19 that he was mentioning, anything that could have been regarded as

20 Greater Serbia?

21 A. No, no, no. The answer is no. But Mr. Najdanovic was a

22 university professor, married to a Jew, and as a professor of medicine he

23 was trying to explain in a more philosophical way what that means. There

24 is no connotation of Greater Serbia here.

25 Q. So if you could say: What did you understand him to be meaning by

1 the reference to an integral Serbia?

2 A. This is a period after the 14th of October, so the Assembly was

3 already in place, Serb deputies had been outvoted, the rift had occurred,

4 and various ideas are now on the table, and he says it's clear now we want

5 Yugoslavia, Croats don't, Muslims don't. The only thing that remains is

6 to see what's going to happen to those who want Yugoslavia. Is it going

7 to stay one country, one land? How are we going to deal with the issue of

8 minorities? So he's thinking aloud.

9 The plebiscite had already happened. We expressed our will. We

10 are telling the Yugoslav People's Army, please defend us now. What are we

11 going to do with the other minorities? So he's sort of canvassing for

12 ideas, looking for an answer.

13 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, that is probably reasonably clear to the

14 Trial Chamber. My specific question, which I'm inviting you to

15 concentrate, was his reference to an integral Serbia, one of a number of

16 possibilities that he was mentioning in the way that you described.

17 What did you understand him to be meaning by the mention of that

18 particular possibility, among others, an integral Serbia? What did he

19 mean?

20 A. Well, we were fighting against the unitarian Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina. We wanted something decentralised. And now on account of

22 this negative attitude we had towards a unitarianism and centralised

23 authority, he's telling us we want the plebiscite -- you won the

24 plebiscite, rather, now what kind of Yugoslavia do you want? Earlier, you

25 offered the Muslim side something democratic, decentralised, et cetera.

1 He didn't actually say it but that's what he was thinking. He was a very

2 broad-minded man. He was recalling what we offered to the other side when

3 we were thinking what to do with Bosnia. So he's kind of reminding

4 us, "You had offered that earlier to the other side. You were against

5 unitarianism then. So how can you be for a unitarian Serbia now?" So he

6 was pointing out problems, making analogies with proposals we had made

7 earlier on what kind of Yugoslavia we wanted. Simply something like

8 before and after, what we wanted then and what we want now.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you move on to find point 7? We are going to

10 pass over a number of those marginal numbers. This is at the foot of

11 page 12 of the English, Your Honours.

12 A. I've found it.

13 Q. And Dr. Karadzic is beginning a contribution here. I'm going to

14 go about seven or eight paragraphs into what he says.

15 Your Honours may note the first few paragraphs and the

16 mathematical stuff in the contribution.

17 Then a paragraph beginning: "When we think things over," which is

18 just past the middle of page 13. "When we think things over, when we plan

19 for the future, despite the fact that we will remain in Yugoslavia, I see

20 that Bosnia cannot be organised like the other republics. Predominantly

21 nation republics, because it is a republic with three national

22 communities. And I ask that both in terms of language and terminology we

23 adhere to this three national communities.

24 "I had the opportunity when I was in Belgrade, before Vance came

25 here, to spend an hour and a half alone with him. And then he called the

1 three of us to a meeting. I should like to use this [community] today for

2 the same purpose."

3 Just pausing there, Mr. Krajisnik, can you say who "the three of

4 us" were that Dr. Karadzic was referring to. That were called by

5 Mr. Vance to a meeting?

6 A. The three sides are the Serbs, Croats and Muslims. And Mr.

7 Karadzic, Mr. Izetbegovic, and Mr. Kljujic are the three persons, I

8 assume, because they are the representatives of the leading political

9 parties, and they represent the three ethnic communities.

10 I'm just guessing who it was, but these were the top people of the

11 three national parties. I know that Mr. Karadzic was there, and I assume

12 that the other two were at that meeting.

13 Q. Then Dr. Karadzic continues: "To repeat constantly, three

14 national communities, not three parties, but three national communities.

15 "The parties represent these national communities, this time it

16 is the Serbian Democratic Party, next time it might be the Federalists

17 Party of Mr. Djokanovic. Some parties will act together. But the

18 terminology should be: Three national communities because they exist.

19 "In this Republic the life of the three national communities

20 overlaps in places, in places they have things in common. But to my mind,

21 the more separate things there are the better it will be. Perhaps these

22 three national communities will very three school systems, perhaps even

23 three health care systems, et cetera. Perhaps in formulating this

24 recommendation we should state that in places where the Serbs are not able

25 to preserve their civil, national, economic and other rights due to being

1 vastly outnumbered, the Assembly of the Serbian people recommends that

2 they form their municipality. In this way we would achieve what

3 Mr. Milojevic vividly described for us, that we must not lose what we have

4 taken, what we have invested in."

5 Mr. Krajisnik, was it SDS policy at that time, 21st November,

6 1991, that the more separate things there were, the better?

7 A. There are two answers. One is that it was an answer to the moves

8 made by the Muslim side. They outvoted us at their own initiative,

9 violated the constitution, and now you don't want to be with us, we want

10 to separate from you. Not literally but sort of.

11 On the other hand, there was political marketing. Now that you've

12 established your own assembly, now the leader of one party is disguising

13 this in order to win this easier. Let's change this decision. Let's have

14 the Yugoslav People's Army protect the Serbs where they are, without it

15 being very obvious.

16 Now, my understanding is that, in a way, this was a call to the

17 other side, though there were some strings attached, see what we are going

18 to do if we do not sit down and negotiate, in order to find a

19 solution. Let me put it this way: We kept trying to get the others to

20 talk things through because we realised that there can be no solution

21 without an agreement of all three sides. There can be a short-term

22 agreement but not a long-term agreement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I take it that you intended to refer

24 to the date of the Third Session which is the 11th of December, not the

25 21st of November?

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is completely right.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4 Q. The reference where Dr. Karadzic said in that passage I read:

5 "Perhaps these three national communities will have three school

6 systems." Now, in raising that possibility, Mr. Krajisnik, was it -- was

7 it regarded by the SDS as a positive or a negative result if at the end of

8 everything there were three school systems corresponding to the three

9 national communities?

10 A. Mr. Stewart, I'll try to explain this to you. We had one

11 language, the Serbo-Croat language. When the new multi-party elections

12 were held and when the new assembly was established, a problem cropped up

13 straight away. The Croat side said, "we want to have a Croat language."

14 The Bosniak side, "We have the Bosniak language." And now we ultimately

15 had to say, "We have a Serbian language," although there are only nuances

16 of differences. Even today there is a problem in Bosnia where there are

17 different schools, where the curriculum is taught in the Croat language or

18 in the Bosniak language. I still think it's one language.

19 When I listen to the interpretation here, for instance, there are

20 quite a few Croat words, purely Croat words that are used here, but it

21 would be an ugly thing if I were to say, I can't understand the young man

22 who is saying this, because I know the words. I lived there.

23 So that is what he was saying, that from the very outset this is

24 what was insisted upon, separating the languages. They even said that

25 invitations to attend Assembly meetings should be sent once in Serbian,

1 once in Croat, once in Bosniak, once in Cyrillic, in the Latin script and

2 so on and so forth. So that is what he is saying, that ultimately we may

3 have these separated systems because even if we didn't want it, others

4 wanted it. This still exists. It's not big things that are big.

5 Sometimes small things are big. And people create problems over these

6 things unnecessarily. I mean, we who were there made these problems

7 unnecessarily.

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps I would be more direct about what I'm

9 getting at here. Dr. Karadzic says, in two sentences, he says -- go to

10 page 13 of the English: "But to my mind, the more separate things there

11 are the better it will be. Perhaps these three national communities will

12 have three school systems ..."

13 Mr. Krajisnik, what I'm asking is whether, in saying that,

14 Dr. Karadzic was referring to an SDS policy which had in mind that three

15 school systems was something it ultimately wanted to achieve, as a

16 positive thing, or whether it had in mind that it wished ultimately to

17 avoid a situation where it was necessary to have three separate school

18 systems? And I'm asking which of those was it?

19 A. It wasn't any of those two options. There was a third one.

20 Mr. Karadzic was saying that once we talked to the other sides, perhaps we

21 will indeed have the three school systems. The Croats wants to have their

22 language, the Muslims want to have their language, the Serbs want to have

23 their language. All three peoples feel that they haven't lived this

24 through. They all want to have their own thing. So if we have that, then

25 everybody will feel free to say now this is mine, because unfortunately,

1 there was this conflict and then things were made artificially because of

2 this conflict.

3 Let me say one more thing. Our linguists -- I mean people who

4 have a degree in the Serbo-Croat language and in literature, they kept

5 saying all of this is the Serbian language. So there is no Croatian, no

6 Bosniak, whatever. And then the others were irritated by that. So the

7 answer is that Mr. Karadzic thought that if we are going to have many

8 separate things, it will be better because everybody will say, look, this

9 is my language, this is my thing, which is the way it is today. But on

10 the other hand we don't need any interpreters. We understand each other.

11 A lot of time has to go by, but it was to so topical at that point in

12 time, let me just have my own language, or this other language, and so on.

13 At one meeting of the Assembly, the distinguished Professor

14 Filipovic said, "Are we going to use the Cyrillic or the Latin script, or

15 the Cyrillic or whatever," so the Bosniaks were supposed to write in the

16 Latin script. They said, and he said, "No, the Bosniaks want both the

17 Cyrillic and the Latin alphabets because both are ours. You will see that

18 at the first Assembly meeting." So the answer is that he is speaking

19 about the consequences. And, of course, there were linguists who said,

20 "Wait a minute, we want to have only our own language." But that is a

21 discussion among experts. But we wanted least of all to have this

22 separation along the lines of language, but the consequence was that we

23 actually expected that. Because this wasn't necessary. The language

24 existed before that too. And also the rules and everything.

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to invite you, because I'm not 100

1 per cent sure everything is all right with the English, so I'm going to

2 invite you to read the next paragraph from your own language that begins

3 "even the smallest municipality." It's only about four lines. I wonder

4 if you would just read that out loud.

5 A. I read that. That's a recommendation for the Serbs where they

6 feel threatened, where they feel jeopardised. They should establish --

7 Q. Perhaps I could make -- I'm inviting you to read that short

8 paragraph out loud so we can have it interpreted today, the one that

9 begins "even the smallest municipality."

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you find it.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. It's written

12 differently here. That's why I cannot find it, but yes, I have found it

13 now.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's page 18 and then the line starting with --

15 "opstina."

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. "Maybe in the formulation

17 of this recommendation it should be said that where Serbs, due to ruthless

18 outvoting, are not in a position to safeguard their civic, national,

19 economic and other rights."

20 MR. STEWART:

21 Q. Sorry, Mr. Krajisnik, it's not -- that's not the paragraph I had

22 in mind. It's the next one. I assume it's broken up into paragraphs in

23 the same way. In English it begins "even the smallest municipality."

24 It's about three, four lines. It's that paragraph. It's the next short

25 paragraph that I'm inviting you to read out loud, please.

1 A. Yes, yes. "Even the smallest municipality can have three

2 municipalities if we agree on that. If that is agreed on, at the

3 conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina that recommendations should state that

4 this is not obligatory but it should be done unless national equality

5 cannot be secured otherwise."

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we've ended up with the same

7 wording. It doesn't make any sense in English. I didn't want to comment.

8 I just wanted to try and get it done. Well, I'll be direct about it, Your

9 Honour. It makes no sense unless the word "unless" is changed to "if."

10 Perhaps we could agree on that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we hear from the interpreters that --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is necessary to read the previous

13 paragraph and that's why I tried to read it. I tried to read the previous

14 paragraph, then you understand this better.

15 MR. STEWART: I probably understand the English better,

16 Mr. Krajisnik. That's as much as we can say.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But Mr. Krajisnik tries to explain, Mr. Stewart, that

18 reading the two paragraphs together would make it more understandable.

19 I'm not quite sure yet whether -- I leave it up to you whether you would

20 like to invite Mr. Krajisnik to read the previous paragraph as well. I

21 just try to --

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, Mr. Josse makes a very sensible

23 practical suggestion. Why don't we just send these two paragraphs, with

24 respect, back to the CLSS and invite a new translation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could do that and then -- but I have to then

1 have to make one observation; that is, that we have two sources in B/C/S

2 for this document. One of them being P64.A, tab 270, whereas the other

3 source is P65, tab 62.

4 The problem with these originals is that the numbering of the

5 pages in the translations you provided to us, Mr. Stewart, differs from

6 the one -- from some of them, at least these two versions, in some of them

7 the first page starts with -- as the copy you provided us with, with the

8 stenographic record of the Third Session of the Assembly of the Serbian

9 people in BiH, and then the second page being transcript of the Third

10 Session of the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

11 whereas some of the originals are provided with a translation where this

12 first of -- could I say so -- the two cover pages is not translated, and

13 that creates a difference in numbering in the English version by one page

14 all through the document, whereas I see no other differences at this

15 moment. We also see that -- yes. That's just --

16 So if you send it for translation, it should be clear what we send

17 for translation. From what I see on my screen of the original of P65 --

18 no, P65, tab 62, we find it on the upper part of a page which is numbered

19 page 18 and which bears the number SA 02 and then 4950. So that just for

20 your information, that if it will be sent back that, that's the page on

21 which this text appears.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we would certainly follow Your Honour's

23 direction, and that makes it -- just convinces me that we should send it

24 to anybody in order to get it off our own desks, and we suggest that CLSS

25 would be a good place. But thank you for that summary, Your Honour.

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to read because it's an introduction, do

2 you see point 8 in the margin -- sorry, I'll pause. Mr. Krajisnik, His

3 Honour is engaged at the moment. I'm going to just have us wait.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you see marginal note 8 against which you are

7 recorded as speaking, but the previous speaker was Mr. Nenad Veselinovic,

8 and I think it makes sense of your contribution to look first at what he

9 says.

10 Toward the bottom of page 14 of the English: "I am in favour, and

11 some perhaps remember that I insisted on Serb municipalities. But, we

12 have not finished the process we started - that of regionalisation.

13 "I think that the order of moves should be planned. Plainly

14 speaking, to break up the existing municipalities where the Serbs are not

15 a majority. For there are situations of some adjacent local communities,

16 of settlements belonging to two municipalities where Serbs are not a

17 majority. This means that from two or three neighbouring municipalities

18 we have space to form a large, nice Serb municipality.

19 "What I want to say is that the order of the moves should be

20 decided, and that we should finish what we started - the separation of

21 local communities, settlements, et cetera, and that an expert body should

22 convene and state what can be done where. For instance in Sarajevo, we

23 can form two Serb municipalities, or form another municipality between

24 Sarajevo, Pale, Ilidza and Novo Sarajevo so as not to confuse our people.

25 We will not finish what we have started. Now we will again put them in a

1 position where we are forming municipalities and where some people do not

2 understand that. Olovo has done it first, and it was done well, they

3 passed a Decision to that effect and now they belong to the Serb

4 Autonomous Region of Romanija, et cetera.

5 "I suggest we finish the job we started.

6 "I insist that the city of Sarajevo be first defined and that

7 these municipalities be formed of the Serb settlements. I think that this

8 sequence of events would speed up things, It would be more rational and

9 practicable."

10 And then you, Mr. Krajisnik, say: "Before anyone else takes the

11 floor, let me remark that a misunderstanding is in question here.

12 "In municipal assemblies where Serb representatives are in the

13 minority, such as Novi Grad, Olovo, et cetera where decisions against the

14 Serbian people are imposed on them by the majority, they should form

15 municipal assemblies just like we formed the Assembly of the Serbian

16 people here. This is what it is all about.

17 "Everything else, regionalisation, is quite a different matter.

18 "In a municipality like Olovo where we have a large territory and

19 20 per cent of the representatives we cannot allow them to be constantly

20 outvoted and in that way decisions against the interests of the Serbian

21 people to be imposed on them. All our further discussion will be the

22 subject of the next item of the Agenda.

23 "Only municipalities where Serbian delegates are a minority

24 should form such assemblies as this Republican Assembly of ours is, so as

25 to exercise certain rights. I think that this is the source of the

1 misunderstanding. Veselinovic spoke about regionalisation, the rounding

2 off of territories, like Mr. Vjestica and others are doing."

3 So it was -- it was Mr. Veselinovic and Mr. Vjestica and some

4 others who were misunderstanding the point, was it?

5 A. Yes. They misunderstood it.

6 Q. And can you say what was the nub of their misunderstanding?

7 A. A municipality is one concept. That's a territorial concept, like

8 a republic or like a state. But a municipal assembly is a body, like a

9 parliament.

10 We asked to establish assemblies in those municipalities where

11 Serbs were outnumbered, a Serb assembly, that would discuss those matters

12 where they had been outvoted. Now, this MP spoke about regionalisation,

13 that now municipalities are supposed to be established. Basically that

14 these entities should be set up. That was not the objective. The

15 objective was to establish a body in those municipalities where Serbs were

16 outvoted and outnumbered. That would be called a Serb assembly that

17 could, just like this republican assembly, discuss various problems and

18 adopt certain recommendations to the councilmen in terms of the areas

19 where they were outvoted.

20 It's a mistake that we didn't discuss the previous recommendation.

21 The establishment of municipal assemblies, not municipalities. So that

22 was the mistake. Now, Mr. Veselinovic meant regionalisation. That's what

23 he thought, that certain territories should be established, but that was

24 the wrong idea.

25 Q. And the -- you referred in your contribution there, you referred

1 to: "... a municipality like Olovo, where we," that's obviously Serbs,

2 "where we have a large territory and 20 per cent of the representatives

3 [you] can't allow them to be constantly outvoted."

4 But did the -- your position on this, did it only relate to

5 municipalities where the Serbs had large territory, or did it relate

6 generally to municipalities where the Serbs were in a minority and were

7 being constantly outvoted?

8 A. It related to all municipalities, where the Serbs were a minority

9 and where they had been outvoted in an unconstitutional manner. It wasn't

10 that they were outvoted on particular issues.

11 As for the example of Olovo, I spoke about that either yesterday

12 or the day before yesterday. You have a town there of 5.000 inhabitants

13 and a municipality of 15.000 inhabitants. And now you have different

14 villages. So in this small town, the majority is one ethnic group and the

15 town is surrounded by villages with a majority population belonging to a

16 different ethnic group. So the town can impose its own will on the entire

17 municipality regarding things like water, roads, electricity and so on.

18 So if a big municipality were to be transformed into several

19 municipalities, then this meeting of a few villages would decide on

20 certain things on their own. This was the example of Olovo of 20.000

21 inhabitants, but we have other examples too, but perhaps two-thirds of

22 rural Olovo were Serbs. So the only problem was the municipal parliaments

23 and what kind of decisions were being passed there, so that's why it was

24 important to that could have this kind of assembly that could say, "Well

25 wait a minute, this is not fair, this is not lawful, it should not be

1 turned into a law." It was not an order to do this. It was a

2 recommendation. It was for the councilmen themselves to decide in those

3 places where they had been outvoted.

4 Q. When -- if we go over, then, it's over the page in the English, to

5 page 16, and it's to marginal note 9 on your copy, Mr. Krajisnik, where

6 you're making a further contribution.

7 A. I have 8 and 10. Let me just see if I have 9.

8 Q. If you --

9 A. I have to disappoint you. I don't have 9. I have 10.

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I can recover immediately from my disappointment if

11 you find the point in the text exactly halfway between 8 and 10, you

12 contribute to the discussion: "Please, can we explain some things."

13 A. Is that page 22 in Serbian? Never mind. You go on. I see where

14 I'm talking. Chairman.

15 Q. Yes, that's it: "Please, can we explain some things." And then

16 about four paragraphs down, you start: "In municipalities such as

17 Novi Grad, Hadzici, Stari Grad."

18 Do you see that paragraph?

19 A. Just a minute.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I think if it would assist you, the

21 page number 22 --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The bottom, the second part of that page.

24 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are always of great help. Thank

1 you. I found it.

2 "We in municipalities like Novi Grad, Hadzici," is that what you

3 mean?

4 MR. STEWART:

5 Q. Yes, exactly, Mr. Krajisnik, yes. It says: "In municipalities

6 such as Novi Grad, Hadzici, Stari Grad, et cetera, we have no rights

7 whatsoever. It is there that assemblies of the Serbian people should be

8 formed."

9 Mr. Krajisnik, can you confirm, when you say "we have no rights

10 whatsoever," in fact what you were saying, we do have rights, they are

11 just being consistently overridden? That's what you were meaning to say,

12 weren't you?

13 A. Yes. If I were to say, without any rights whatsoever, that would

14 be wrong. You are right. Rights are being violated, and the way it's put

15 here, there are no rights whatsoever, is an exaggeration.

16 Q. And then Mr. Ostojic, who is the next speaker, in about the third

17 paragraph of his contribution there, he refers to these same

18 municipalities in a -- well, more or less the same municipalities. He

19 says: "I think that municipalities such as Stari Grad, Hadzici,

20 Srebrenica, Bratunac and many others."

21 Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. "... and many others are actually something which is called the

24 political self-punishment of the SDS."

25 What did Mr. Ostojic mean by talking about "self-punishment of the

1 SDS"?

2 A. I don't know. This is said literally. He probably means the same

3 thing that I meant, that it was outvoting, because SDS and SDA were

4 sharing power in that area. I really don't know how to explain it.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krajisnik, if you don't

6 know.

7 A. Self-punishment, it doesn't work, it doesn't seem logical to

8 understand it as if SDS is punishing itself. Professors tend to like

9 flourish. SDS cannot be punishing itself.

10 Q. Let's move on and leave the professors behind for the moment,

11 Mr. Krajisnik.

12 And then point 10, I know you've got point 10, because you

13 mentioned it a couple of minutes ago. "The chairman asked Mr. Ostojic,"

14 you see that? Middle of page 17 in the English. "The Chairman asked

15 Mr. Ostojic what is the proposal and shall we opt for the establishment of

16 Serb assemblies in municipalities?"

17 Do you see that?

18 A. I see.

19 Q. And then: "I think, said Mr. Ostojic, that my question also

20 reflects my position. I believe that now we can take no other course of

21 action.

22 "In places where we can have no political influence ..." -- this

23 appears to be Mr. Ostojic still speaking -- "where we can have no

24 political influence on the life and work of the municipalities, in places

25 where our representatives, Serb" -- "serve," I mean, "only" to fulfil the

1 formal requirements for the functioning of a government which produces

2 decisions against the interests of the Serbian people, municipal

3 assemblies of Serb representatives must be formed. And in places where

4 even this is not enough municipal territories of the Serb people must be

5 constituted."

6 It's that last bit I'm asking particularly about, Mr. Krajisnik,

7 "and in places where even this is not enough municipal territories of the

8 Serb people must be constituted," what specifically was Mr. Ostojic

9 proposing in that sentence?

10 A. That's exactly what I was talking about a moment ago, the

11 difference between municipality and municipal assembly. Mr. Ostojic was

12 advocating the establishment of municipalities by dividing existing

13 municipalities, and I am adding or rather saying, let us form new

14 municipal assemblies rather than new municipalities. That was my answer.

15 Q. So this was on that point, from what you said, there was a -- at

16 the very least there was a clear divergence of view, at least between you

17 and Mr. Ostojic, wasn't there?

18 A. Well, eventually he agreed with me, although his original proposal

19 had been different. But later he agreed that we should form municipal

20 assemblies rather than new municipalities, because the latter was too

21 radical. We were still hoping to find a moderate solution rather than

22 going as far to form new municipalities. You are right in saying that

23 originally his opinion differed from mine, but eventually he agreed.

24 Q. Was it -- was it at that time, 11th of December, can you say

25 whether it was your view or Mr. Ostojic's view on this point which better

1 reflected the view of the SDS leadership?

2 A. I have to be very sincere. This recommendation had a hard time

3 passing through. The deputies were against any new municipal assemblies.

4 They wanted regions. They thought that it was hopeless to hope for

5 agreement with the Muslims. And we were giving one more chance to the

6 Muslims and Croats, telling them, "We are just establishing a body to deal

7 with national issues but let us sit down and see how to reorganise

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina."

9 So this recommendation to form municipal assemblies did pass

10 through but with great difficulty. And further on in the discussion,

11 there were many other speakers who said, on the contrary, "Let us form new

12 regions instead."

13 Q. If we go about one page on, to what you will have as marginal

14 note 11, towards the top of page 18 of the English, we see a contribution

15 from Mrs. Slobodanka Hrvacanin. You see that?

16 A. I found it.

17 Q. And, of course, we have heard evidence from Mrs. Hrvacanin. She

18 is from Zenica.

19 I'm going to go straight to the fourth paragraph, although Your

20 Honours, noting, because it's important as part of the lead-in for Your

21 Honours' purposes, noting the previous paragraphs. But I go straight to:

22 "Don't take it for granted that all Serbs are brave."

23 Do you see that, Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. Yes, I see it.

25 Q. "Don't take it for granted that all Serbs are brave, nor embellish

1 things by saying that they are such in the central part of Bosnia because

2 many of them were in favour of the plebiscite, but gave their vote through

3 their friends so this would not be seen. What I want to say is that I

4 would like to know how much we would win or lose by establishing such a

5 Serb assembly. For, it is true that we are being outvoted."

6 Mr. Krajisnik, we know that, because we've heard that

7 Mrs. Hrvacanin was in a Serb minority municipality. She says then: "If

8 we are to move, then all this discussion is pointless, but if we will

9 remain living there, I would like to suggest that a commission draw up an

10 appropriate model of action for central Bosnia, showing pros and cons."

11 So Mr. Krajisnik, would it be fair to describe Mrs. Hrvacanin's

12 position as lying somewhere between the view which you have just expressed

13 as broadly the view of the SDS leadership, and the view of other deputies

14 in this assembly who didn't like that proposal at all?

15 A. The contribution of Mrs. Hrvacanin was very rational, very

16 reasonable, and that was one of the reasons why we thought we should

17 refrain from radical moves. Radical moves were proposed by deputies from

18 areas where Serbs were in the majority, and they had no idea of what it

19 was like to live when you were seriously outnumbered by other ethnic

20 communities. And that's precisely what Mrs. Hrvacanin saying: You don't

21 understand our situation and you want us to take a decision that would be

22 against our interests.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could I ask Mr. Krajisnik to slowly read

24 again the last part, the last sentence of this -- I think it starts with

25 [B/C/S spoken]. Could you please slowly read that? You found that?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read that one sentence only?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "So if we were to establish such a

4 Serb assembly, I would like to know how much we would win by doing that

5 and how much we would lose, because it is true that we are being

6 outvoted."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Could we move on, then, Mr. Krajisnik, it's not very far. Again,

11 it's about a page to where you find the marginal note 12? It's the middle

12 of page 20 in the English. It's Mr. Momo Golijanin.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, do you think you could deal with that in

14 some five minutes?

15 MR. STEWART: Yes, I do, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

17 MR. STEWART:

18 Q. Mr. Golijanin says: "Mr. President, dear colleagues, all the

19 discussions so far proceeded from a standpoint in which the Serbian people

20 won. However, there are cases where the Serbian people is losing, so,

21 what is to be done in such a situation?

22 "For instance, in Nevesinje, there is an area called

23 Gornje Polje, geographically the most beautiful part of Nevesinje where

24 the Muslim people are in the majority, and they have expressed the wish to

25 be annexed to Konjic.

1 "Should they, for instance, be allowed to form their

2 municipality, or should, for instance, Kula and Gacko, who have also

3 expressed the wish to form their municipality with its seat in Mostar, be

4 allowed to do so! What an anomaly? Gacko, Kula - with its seat in

5 Mostar!

6 "If we are demanding our rights in municipalities where we are in

7 the minority it is only natural to expect that we give others rights in

8 municipalities in which we constitute a majority. And, it is also

9 questionable how the Serbian people will respond and react to such a

10 position."

11 Mr. Krajisnik, in Mr. Golijanin's reference to the Muslims having

12 expressed the wish in that part of Nevesinje to be annexed to Konjic, does

13 this reflect some similar debate going on within the Muslim political

14 community in relation to the restructuring of municipalities?

15 A. Yes. But in a -- smaller measures than with Serbs. Both Croats

16 and Muslims discussed it but less than Serbs. So it was said in jest,

17 MAO, HAO and SAO. Like Muslim autonomous district, Croat autonomous

18 district, Serb autonomous district.

19 There are other examples when Muslims wanted to create their

20 municipalities. Not municipal assemblies but municipalities. And even

21 Croats in areas where they were a minority wanted their own

22 municipalities. Of course, the war put a stop to all that. That such

23 ideas had been voiced.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's finished that question.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn until quarter past four.

1 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, first of all I think I promised that I

4 would come back to the issue of the -- dealt with in an e-mail of

5 yesterday in open court.

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed. Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I'm also directly addressing you,

8 Mr. Krajisnik.

9 The Chamber has read the e-mail that --

10 MR. JOSSE: Just this observation, of course, Mr. Krajisnik has no

11 idea as to its contents.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The issue you raised yesterday, you said,

13 Mr. Krajisnik, in which you had a conversation with counsel has been

14 addressed through an e-mail as announced yesterday, as you may remember,

15 in court in which some further details were given. I take it these are

16 the details provided by you, Mr. Krajisnik, to you, Mr. Josse. I think

17 you sent the e-mail.

18 MR. JOSSE: I did, and Mr. Krajisnik provided the details to both

19 of his counsel.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the Chamber has read the e-mail you have

21 sent to us, Mr. Josse, in which the concerns of Mr. Krajisnik on the media

22 reporting of his testimony were further explained.

23 The Chamber will not intervene in any way. Any other position

24 would require the Chamber to make an assessment of the reporting of the

25 media on the correctness of their interpretation of your testimony.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, where you have found some of the reports incorrect and

2 unfair to you, any other position would also open the road for

3 interventions, which would be unfair to the Prosecution. For this, but

4 not only for this but for many other reasons as well, the Chamber decided

5 to refrain from any intervention.

6 The Chamber, speaking in very general terms and without an

7 assessment on -- of any reporting on your testimony, Mr. Krajisnik, the

8 Chamber has not read, nor seen, any of these media reports, but the

9 Chamber, speaking in general terms, has understanding for concerns any

10 party may have about incorrect and unfair reporting.

11 It is left to the parties to see whether and what action it deems

12 appropriate to seek correction of what it considers to be incorrect and

13 unfair reporting.

14 The Chamber also appreciates that if the Defence would like to

15 take whatever action, the input of Mr. Krajisnik might be relevant.

16 Therefore, upon an application, whether or not in private session, the

17 Chamber is inclined to positively respond to a request to allow

18 communication of specific concerns Mr. Krajisnik may have to his counsel.

19 I will draw the attention of the Registrar to the fact that you have

20 raised these concerns, Mr. Krajisnik.

21 This concludes an observation made by the Chamber on the matter.

22 Then before I allow you to continue the examination-in-chief,

23 Mr. Stewart, you may have noticed that I invited Mr. Krajisnik to re-read

24 a certain line, a line being part of the observations made by

25 Mrs. Hrvacanin, and that I did not really follow up to that line being

1 read. I had some doubts on the translation. Of course, you quoted the

2 translation, which is quite understandable, Mr. Stewart. It is the quote

3 about "how much we would win or lose by establishing such a Serb

4 assembly."

5 Did you find that?

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, I have, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I wondered whether the translation, "Serb

8 assembly," would be the right one. When I asked Mr. Krajisnik to read it

9 again, then I got the same translation, but I found it important enough to

10 verify during the break with some of the interpreters still available at

11 that moment, which I could get hold of, to ask again whether the

12 "establishing such a Serb assembly" should not be "establishing such a

13 Serb municipality." And it was confirmed, but I'm seeking now

14 confirmation from all booths that the word "opstina," which appears in

15 that line as read by Mr. Krajisnik, that that should be translated as

16 "Serb assembly" -- as "Serb municipality" rather than as both in writing

17 and when it was repeatedly read by Mr. Krajisnik, "Serb assembly." So it

18 should be "municipality," unless I'm now contradicted.

19 THE INTERPRETER: It is "municipality" in the text.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, Mr. Stewart, you have put your

21 questions on the basis of the written translation, I take it, which is not

22 a correct one. It should be establishing such a Serb municipality.

23 MR. STEWART: Indeed, I did put my question on the basis of the

24 English translation which is all I can do, Your Honour. But, Your Honour,

25 I'm grateful for that, clearly. If a translation error can be corrected,

1 it's very helpful that it should.

2 Your Honour, I probably had in mind myself, in not following that

3 up, that page 15 of the English and Mr. Krajisnik's intervention, the

4 paragraph was: "Only municipalities where Serbian delegates were in the

5 minority should form such assemblies as this republican assembly of ours."

6 So what was being talked about the terminology there, the same

7 exercise that we are talking about was referred to as the setting up of

8 Serb assemblies within a municipality. Therefore, Your Honour, it

9 didn't -- what I'm saying is Your Honour, nothing struck me as amiss

10 because whether the word "assembly" is used or the word "municipality" was

11 used, the sense of it is -- can be perfectly correct.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It could be perfectly correct, but a distinction has

13 been made between establishing an assembly only or a municipality. The

14 distinction appears, at least. Let's not further deal with it in detail.

15 Let me first just verify, Mr. Krajisnik, you noticed that I asked

16 to you re-read that portion. If -- when the question was put to you by

17 Mr. Stewart on the intervention of Mrs. Hrvacanin, would your answer have

18 been any different or perhaps did you -- did you give your answer on the

19 understanding of the word "opstina" or did you -- when the question was

20 put to you, did you understand it to be about the establishment of a Serb

21 assembly? Could you ask -- could I ask you whether that needs any further

22 explanation or would you say, well, that's how I had understood it, as the

23 establishment of a Serb municipality and that was what I based my answer

24 upon? If that's the case, we don't have to revisit the matter; if not,

25 please add whatever you would like to add.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I read exactly as it

2 is written. What is written is "municipality." However, the translation

3 was again "assembly."

4 Mrs. Hrvacanin was reacting to the proposal of Mr. Ostojic, his

5 original proposal to form municipalities. And I said I agree with

6 Mrs. Hrvacanin. We cannot establish municipalities. We should form

7 instead assemblies. That's what we need. The translation was wrong. She

8 didn't want municipalities in Zenica. But I heard the interpretation; it

9 was wrong.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just -- I especially since you made this

11 distinction between "municipality" and "assembly" to be established, I

12 thought it would be necessary to clarify this issue. It has now been

13 clarified. We now well understood your testimony in this respect.

14 And Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

15 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you find, please, point 13, numbered margin

17 note 13 in your copy?

18 Your Honour, this is page 20 of the English.

19 It's a Mr. Milosevic. It's not Mr. Slobodan Milosevic. A

20 Mr. Milosevic is speaking there.

21 A. I found it.

22 Q. And this Mr. Milosevic in the third paragraph, it is says: "In

23 the municipality of Novi Grad there are 85 per cent more Muslims than

24 Serbs. This means that Muslims outnumber the Serbs by 85 per cent. When

25 outvoting is in question, the situation is as follows: We have 21 out of

1 the total of 100 representatives. Outvoting in the Assembly and also in

2 the government happens routinely. When we adopt decisions in the

3 government we are outvoted in their interest.

4 "It is in their interest for no organ to do any work, because

5 their people are working for that. We are trying to prevent that -

6 through whom? We have four Secretariats of which three are theirs: The

7 Secretariat for Town Planning, for the Economy, and for National Defence.

8 We only have the Land Survey Registry.

9 "What is happening?

10 "When the government sits in session, I interrupt the session.

11 They remain and decide to take on ten new workers in the Secretariat for

12 Town Planning, in which they already had more men. For instance, the head

13 is a Croat, the head of the utilities department is a Muslim, the head of

14 the inspectorate is a Muslim, they employ ten new people of whom eight are

15 Muslims and two Serbs. They employ them at that session, an SDA session.

16 "They say they had a majority and that that is the decision they

17 adopted. That is how they make decisions.

18 "In the territory of the municipality" --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I invite you to restart reading from the

20 line "for instance." I'm following the French translation, and you're

21 really a couple of lines advanced to the French translation. You should

22 really slow down.

23 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I will do that.

24 "For instance, the head is a Croat, the head of the utilities

25 department is a Muslim, the head of the inspectorate is a Muslim, they

1 employ ten new people of whom eight are Muslims and two Serbs. They

2 employ them at that session, an SDA session.

3 "They say they had a majority and that that is the decision they

4 adopted. That is how they make decisions.

5 "In the territory of the municipality, we are trying to solve the

6 issue of illegal construction. We Serbs there cannot do a thing. We

7 demand that an inspection be carried out. They come, write a report, do

8 nothing, and the building continues."

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what is described there by Mr. Milosevic, was that

10 typical of the sort of problems that were arising around Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina?

12 A. More or less. But this is about Sarajevo, where the problem was

13 greater, and specifically in my municipality, where I lived.

14 Q. Could you go, please, to point 15? It's about a page or so on.

15 Actually, I'm going to go back, if I may, sorry, for one moment.

16 Mr. Krajisnik, do you see number 14 in the margin?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I wonder if you --

19 JUDGE ORIE: For us, Mr. Stewart?

20 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, towards the top of page 22 the

21 paragraph beginning "I think that the proposal."

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. STEWART:

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you see a paragraph that begins "I think that

25 the proposal"?

1 A. Is that not number 14?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Yes, I see it.

4 Q. Just close to number 14. Mr. Krajisnik, I wonder if could you

5 read out loud that and the next two paragraphs? So three paragraphs in

6 all, starting with "I think that the proposal."

7 A. "I think that the proposal to form Serb municipalities is all

8 right. I think that after that, we can go on talking about whether to

9 annex ourselves to some entity or not or create a single region from two

10 or three territories.

11 "The chairman asks the deputies if it would be in order to

12 propose the following:

13 "Groups of deputies of the SDS municipal assemblies in BH, where

14 decisions contrary to the interests of the Serb people are imposed by

15 outvoting, are given the recommendation to adopt decisions on establishing

16 municipal assemblies of the Serb people.

17 "This should be additional and should be recommended only where

18 necessary."

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour will probably see I invited that passage

20 to be read because it does draw that distinction between "municipalities"

21 and "assemblies."

22 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think it's the distinction I see "skupstina

23 opstine" which means, as far as I understand, "municipal assembly."

24 There, "municipal" is used not as a -- how do you say that in English, not

25 as a -- it's added to -- "skupstina," it's "assembly" but the assembly of

1 the municipality.

2 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour is slightly losing me. Because

3 Your Honour is introducing into the equation some superior knowledge

4 acquired of the Serbian language, and so we are getting the interpretation

5 from the booth, which made a -- which just came across in English with

6 "municipalities" in one context, "assembly" in the other.

7 Your Honour, perhaps we need to investigate this with our own

8 B/C/S speakers and return to anything that needs clearing up.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- I don't see that there would be,

10 at least from what I read from the original, it doesn't give me the

11 impression -- but again, as I earlier thought that I should verify with

12 the interpreters, you're invited, Mr. Stewart, that if there is any doubt,

13 since you have someone who speaks the language to verify that. Perhaps

14 also either during the next break or now, if you need to have it done

15 urgently, to look at it and then see whether there is any need for -- any

16 need for our interpreters to review this matter.

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I certainly wasn't thinking of there

18 being an urgent need now or even as urgent as the next break, Your Honour.

19 It's just something to be reviewed.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We will either hear from you or we'll just continue.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, just one thing, it was

24 clearly -- it is clearly said here that they should establish a municipal

25 assembly, a parliament, not a territory. The municipal assembly is a

1 parliament. Not a municipality. Municipality is a unit like -- like a

2 republic or something like that. So that is the difference. I hope I

3 managed to explain this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think as a matter of fact that we find two

5 times in these lines, the last lines read, the words -- at least a

6 combination of "skupstina" and "opstine," "skupstina" being first, and

7 it's two times translated in English as a municipal assembly, and I do

8 understand -- I would have no doubts on reading this -- and, first of all,

9 I'm not a linguistic expert but it seems as if Mr. Krajisnik would fully

10 agree. And let's proceed and see whether there is any further need to

11 revisit the matter. If so, we'll hear from you, Mr. Stewart.

12 MR. STEWART: I agree completely, Your Honour. That's -- I'm

13 perfectly happy to do exactly that.

14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then can we take point 15 in the margin and start

15 from there? This is Mr. Rajko. That's I take it that's his family name,

16 Rajko; is that right?

17 A. No. It's his first name.

18 Q. So it's Rajko who?

19 A. Kasagic.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kasagic says: "I therefore propose that serious

21 work be done on the issue of regionalisation, not only as a political

22 issue, but also as a strategic one, where we also have a specific goal.

23 It is necessary to define not only the territorial relationships but also,

24 economic, cultural and all other ones. And it is precisely in this

25 respect that we have not done much. If we leave things as they stand now,

1 the people in the field are left on their own. Everyone has their own

2 vision. Everyone is trying to get to Belgrade, and do something there,

3 establish links, et cetera, so we are losing the main links here. Simply,

4 that is not the way that we can deal with the main problem."

5 Mr. Krajisnik, what was Mr. Kasagic talking about when he said

6 "everyone is trying to get to Belgrade, and do something there, establish

7 links"?

8 A. What is being said is that there are different institutions of

9 Yugoslavia in Belgrade.

10 Now, every region, every individual goes to Belgrade to resolve

11 certain problems for their own region. That's what he meant. I think

12 that it is not right for each and every region to resolve its problems

13 that way, but in a way, the interests of all regions should be

14 represented, and that we should have a single body, which indeed happened

15 ultimately, that would speak on behalf of all, because this way, all the

16 regions were handling their own business as best they could.

17 Q. And then he continues: "At the assembly session held on

18 21st November, it was agreed to resolve the issue of the city of Sarajevo

19 by a special decision. This is an extremely important issue. We still

20 are not ready and we have to ask why. I personally do not know."

21 That was correct, was it, Mr. Krajisnik, that no such special

22 decision had been prepared?

23 A. I'm sorry, could you please be a bit clearer? I don't know what

24 this decision pertains to.

25 Q. Well, it appears that Mr. Kasagic is saying that at the previous

1 assembly meeting, on the 21st of November, it had been agreed to resolve

2 the issue of the city of Sarajevo by a special decision, but he appears --

3 say if this is wrong, Mr. Krajisnik, but he appears to be complaining

4 that, in effect, this has not been progressed. Do you agree with that,

5 first of all?

6 A. Yes. Yes, I agree with that.

7 Q. We can move on. He says: "I am convinced that if we do not carry

8 regionalisation through to the end and properly, it will have been better

9 if we had done nothing at all. We will become a problem for ourselves.

10 The people say: Either be a blacksmith and do your job properly or don't

11 get your hands dirty at all. That is why I insist that this

12 recommendation be incorporated in all this, that primarily, the problem be

13 identified in municipalities with a minority Serb population and that this

14 issue be solved in that context (also because of outvoting).

15 "We have not done that. We are talking about the region of

16 northern Bosnia (Doboj). Which region is that? We have enumerated 18

17 municipalities, of which only in two we have a majority. What

18 regionalisation are we then talking about?

19 "The other side will list the same, as will the third. And then

20 we are at a stalemate. We should by all means bear in mind that they too

21 have their scenarios and if they implement them without us reacting to

22 everything that they want, I think that we can find ourselves at a

23 disadvantage, for we already have several instances where the issue was

24 raised of forming Muslim municipalities and we have no answer to that. Is

25 it in our interest to form a municipality there?

1 "Finally, I think that this should be linked with three items" --

2 I'm sorry: "Finally, I think that this should be linked with

3 item 3 of the agenda, and within those conclusions we could postpone the

4 adoption of this Recommendation, and decide on the conclusions and offered

5 Recommendation after a discussion on item 3."

6 And then you, Mr. Krajisnik, say: "The chairman states that it is

7 evident that we either do not understand each other or fail to grasp the

8 problems in municipalities where we are in the minority. In our

9 discussions we all proceed from the situation in the area from which we

10 come.

11 "Gentlemen, there are urban areas where we cannot resolve this by

12 regionalisation, because regionalisation is a completely separate issue."

13 Mr. Krajisnik, is it fair to say that you were becoming

14 exasperated by this point in the meeting?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What particularly were the problems in municipalities where we are

17 in the minority that you felt there was a failure to grasp?

18 A. Well, the proposal was, the objective was, to have a decision

19 reached, a soft decision, a recommendation so that all those complaints

20 that we received from the other municipalities would be given to these

21 councilmen and that we have a Serb municipal parliament like in the

22 republic, that we do not impose that.

23 What is intertwined here are two ideas. As I said, we started

24 regionalisation as a political move, in order to compel the other side to

25 work with us in finding a real solution.

1 I'm going to explain the meeting in Doboj. I'll probably be asked

2 about it by the Prosecutor. All of these were political moves. Here,

3 Mr. Kasagic is saying, "Seriously, let us link all of this up, and why

4 don't we, at our own initiative, carry out a transformation of Bosnia?" I

5 was against that. Here I asked for the recommendation to be made and to

6 have these municipal parliaments where we had been outvoted and to offer

7 the possibility of transforming Bosnia. If we were truly to carry out a

8 regionalisation, that is to say if we select bodies and territorialise

9 matters, we cannot expect other side to say, "Well, now, you are spelling

10 something out in concrete terms, and you want to negotiate with us. We

11 always have the right to take a step if our hand is forced.

12 But that's why I'm saying to Mr. Kasagic here that he doesn't

13 understand the problem of the people who are complaining from the

14 municipalities where they are in a minority. Let us not only talk from

15 our positions where we are in a majority.

16 Q. Yes. You're referring there, Mr. Krajisnik, to the next -- the

17 next few paragraphs, your contribution, and particularly it's over the

18 page at 24 of the English, at paragraph --

19 Your Honour, the previous paragraph is important but in the

20 interests of moving on, a paragraph beginning: "Please do not make

21 judgements proceeding from your municipalities where the Serbs are in the

22 majority and where regional linking is possible."

23 That's the point you had in mind, Mr. Krajisnik, is it not?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. Point 17 in the margin, in your copy.

1 It's page 26 of the English, Your Honours.

2 It's a contribution by Mr. Vojo Kupresanin. He says -- do you

3 have that, Mr. Krajisnik?

4 A. Yes, I found it.

5 Q. "Gentlemen, I want to say that we have formed regions which do not

6 have final borders, i.e. just contours, and in order to achieve that, I

7 absolutely agree that we should proceed with separating Serb territories,

8 i.e. Serb municipalities in places where that is possible, specifically on

9 the peripheral areas of our region.

10 "In Bosanska Krajina, we have the following situation: We have

11 vast territories, specifically in Prijedor where over 70 per cent, even up

12 to 80 per cent is Serb territory. The plebiscite has shown us accurately

13 which territory is ours and, in accordance with the plebiscite we have to

14 annex this territory. The situation is similar in Bosanska Krupa also

15 where there are few Serb inhabitants but about 80 per cent of the

16 territories belong to the Serbs. We must include that territory too and

17 form a Serb municipality."

18 Mr. Krajisnik, what was your view of that proposal being put

19 forward by Mr. Kupresanin?

20 A. My view was negative, because he did not understand the policy,

21 and he wanted something that would have been irritating and we would have

22 closed the door, as far as negotiations were concerned.

23 Mr. Kupresanin is a poetic soul, so he is speaking in a literary

24 fashion. That was not our policy. People were simply making proposals of

25 their own.

1 You cannot just annex a territory now. You're advocating the

2 transformation of Bosnia, and you're annexing a territory without

3 anybody's consent, where you're not a majority. For example, Prijedor.

4 Prijedor was not annexed to the R Krajina all the way up to the war.

5 Quite simply, there was no majority there.

6 Q. And further on, in his contribution, Mr. Kupresanin says -- it's

7 about four or five paragraphs further on, do you see: "In Cazinska

8 Krajina," do you see that?

9 There is a reference to 250.000 and 300.000 Muslims. Does that

10 help you to find the paragraph?

11 A. I found it.

12 Q. Thank you. "In Cazinska Krajina, there are between 250.000 and

13 300.000 Muslims in a very small space. We can simply shut them off in

14 that ring and it does not suit us at all for them to join us. It is even

15 suitable for us that they are a separate Krajina, the Cazinska Krajina,

16 which will absolutely depend on us in economic terms."

17 Mr. Krajisnik, what was your view of that proposal by

18 Mr. Kupresanin?

19 A. Well, if you allow me, I would just like to say what

20 Mr. Kupresanin's proposal was before this.

21 When the R Krajina was established, he publicly called on this

22 Cazinska Krajina to declare their views in terms of joining the R Krajina

23 because that is one whole. And now, eight or nine months later, he

24 changed his mind, and he is saying something which is not right. He is

25 saying, "We'll shut them off. They are Muslims, let them establish their

1 own region," and so on.

2 I could not agree with this proposal either. I think that he did

3 not agree either. I think it was some kind of propaganda. He probably

4 thought that it was useful if he said something like that at a meeting of

5 this nature. Maybe he actually thought so himself. But I don't think he

6 did because he publicly called upon these people to join the Krajina. We

7 have evidence of that. We have a newspaper article stating what he said

8 and what Mr. Brdjanin said when they established the R Krajina. The end

9 of April, it was, I think, 1991.

10 Q. And then the next contribution is from Mr. --

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I just seek one clarification? Again and again,

12 the R Krajina is mentioned. It's not entirely clear what R Krajina means.

13 MR. STEWART: I had in mind that that was just a new abbreviation

14 adopted, Your Honour, for Autonomous Region of Krajina.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If that's the case, then I just wanted to

16 verify that that's short for -- yes, okay, fine.

17 MR. STEWART: Nobody seems to be contradicting that, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I do not remember that a similar

19 abbreviation was used before in this -- and translated to us in this way.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is absolutely right, but it's a new one

21 on everybody but it's clear what it means now.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever is new I would like to understand.

23 Please proceed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, it is the Autonomous

25 Region of Krajina. So it would be AR Krajina.

1 JUDGE ORIE: It was usually translated as -- I think as AOK or

2 something like that.

3 MR. STEWART: Or ARK or whatever.

4 JUDGE ORIE: ARK was the usual, yes. It was ARK. Yes, I fully

5 understand now. Let's proceed.

6 MR. STEWART: This was an issue among the English speakers here,

7 Mr. Krajisnik.

8 Q. Mr. Zarko Djurovic is the next contributor to this debate. He's

9 the president of the Executive Board. That's against marginal note 18,

10 near the top of page 27 of the English. President of the Executive Board

11 of Novo Sarajevo Assembly.

12 "Mr. President, from the moment this issue was introduced, I have

13 been thinking about the effectiveness of the decisions we will adopt in

14 these municipalities which do not have a majority Serb population.

15 Believe me, I cannot imagine, knowing the organisational setup of

16 municipalities, a decision to be implemented in the area of such a

17 municipality. It is quite another thing when decisions this Assembly

18 adopts are in question. For the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina can adopt laws, recommendations which will be binding on

20 people in municipalities in which Serbs are in the majority and in those

21 in which they are in the minority. Such decisions should be brought along

22 those lines, and they must be acted upon, Secretariats, administrations,

23 et cetera should implement what such an assembly decides."

24 Mr. Krajisnik, first, in talking about decisions of this assembly,

25 the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina being binding

1 on people in either Serb majority or Serb-minority municipalities, was, as

2 you understood it, was Mr. Djurovic only talking about them being binding

3 on Serbs or binding on others as well?

4 A. Mr. Djurovic obviously didn't understand the point of establishing

5 an Assembly of the Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 I don't understand any of this that he said. He did not

7 understand why the Assembly of the Serb people of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

8 established. It was there to resolve vital interests, not to pass laws.

9 And then he can say, "Well, you can do it but how can I handle this at

10 municipal level?"

11 The municipality that Mr. Djurovic is from is the municipality of

12 Novo Sarajevo. It's an urban municipality and he doesn't understand now

13 how, if he were to establish a Serb assembly, how he would carry this

14 through. He doesn't understand the whole idea, if he were to carry it

15 through. He is confusing things. The official assembly and a possible

16 Serb assembly or parliament that would be established at municipal level.

17 That is the point. That is this lack of understanding on his part. He

18 doesn't understand the problem and that's why he's putting things this

19 way.

20 Q. In the next -- I won't read the last sentence of that paragraph.

21 And then the next paragraph he says: "I think that an issue can

22 be solved only by law or subsidiary legislation. No decision brought by a

23 Serb municipality" --

24 Well, I'm going to invite you to read that paragraph, just for

25 safety's sake, Mr. Krajisnik. Do you see the paragraph beginning "no

1 decision brought"? Would you -- it's only two or three lines. Would you

2 just read those out, please?

3 A. "There is not a single decision that would be binding, say, on the

4 Secretariat for urban affairs, if it is adopted by a Serb assembly and if

5 that Secretariat is headed by a Muslim. Such a decision cannot be carried

6 through."

7 Should I continue?

8 Q. If you just pause for a moment, Mr. Krajisnik.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we are seeing this point emerging yet

10 again. And it's clear that we are going to have to go away and, we, Your

11 Honour, I mean the Defence in this case initially, are going to have to go

12 away and do a little bit of work because sometimes it's coming back as

13 "assembly," sometimes it's coming back as "municipality."

14 JUDGE ORIE: To be quite honest, I was making a note and not

15 following the original.

16 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's only this, Your Honour. It's following

17 Your Honour's helpful drawing attention to this distinction, the

18 translation we have in front of us here, or I do any way, and we are

19 looking at: "Said no decision brought by a Serb municipality." And it

20 occurred to me that we might have the same problem, so I invited

21 Mr. Krajisnik to read it, and we got the translation as "assembly."

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises then, because I must

23 have misspoken. The original text does say ""opstine,"" it says

24 "municipality."

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you for that clarification.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then this being clarified, please proceed.

2 MR. STEWART:

3 Q. So, when Mr. Djurovic is talking here, could I just ask this

4 practical question through Your Honours? Mr. Krajisnik, may I take it

5 that when I read back a paragraph like this in English, you just follow it

6 in the text, do you, of the written document in front of you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes, I follow it.

10 Q. Just trying to avoid any possibility that Mr. Krajisnik is not

11 actually getting the word that's in the original when he is dealing with

12 these questions.

13 Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik. I would invite you, with respect,

14 through His Honour to do that, continue to do that.

15 So when Mr. Djurovic is saying: "No decision brought by a Serb

16 municipality would be binding on the, for instance, Secretariat for town

17 planning if a Muslim is at its helm," a decision brought by or made in the

18 proper way in a Serb majority municipality would be binding on the

19 Secretariat for town planning, wouldn't it, Mr. Krajisnik, whatever

20 nationality he or she was?

21 A. I have to say that I'm confused. How come you find this clear?

22 Because this is so confusing. I would like to explain things because you

23 have misunderstood something.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik --

25 A. Please, allow me to explain what this is about.

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd certainly invite you to explain to the Trial

2 Chamber exactly that.

3 A. Thank you indeed.

4 Mr. Djurovic confused the Municipal Assembly with the

5 municipality. That is to say, the parliament with the territory. And he

6 says that he has a territory, a Bosnia and Herzegovinian territory of

7 Novo Sarajevo. And now he says we are establishing a municipality.

8 That's what he says. He's not saying municipal assembly. And then he

9 passes a decision. This decision will not be accepted by some Secretariat

10 that is headed by a Muslim.

11 But that decision, this possible decision, if it were to be

12 reached, does not relate to a Secretariat that belongs to the Municipal

13 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He confused apples and oranges there, and

14 that's why he doesn't understand how this could be carried out. Of

15 course, it couldn't be carried through. This is a municipality where

16 Serbs are a minority. If they were to reach a decision, it could only be

17 carried through -- rather, it cannot be carried through in a territory

18 where there are Muslims, of course.

19 So he got things confused. These two proposals seem intertwined

20 here. Some people want regionalisation and others want parliaments,

21 municipal assemblies. The subject of the entire debate is the

22 recommendation to establish municipal parliaments, whereas he is saying

23 here that we are going to establish a municipal parliament but how was

24 that going to be carried out in the municipality? Well, sorry, I think

25 I'm speaking too loud. So that's where the confusion is in terms of his

1 discussion, and now we are all confused because the man is speaking in

2 such an inarticulate way.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I was only pointing at the speed of your speech,

4 Mr. Krajisnik.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was speaking very loudly, too. I

6 do apologise.

7 MR. STEWART:

8 Q. But it was clear, wasn't it, Mr. Krajisnik, that any decision

9 brought by a Serb assembly formed in a Serb-minority municipality, could

10 not be binding upon a Muslim head of the Secretariat for town planning,

11 for example?

12 A. I'm really glad to hear this. You're completely right.

13 Q. And then marginal point 19, Mr. Skoko, is that a family name or a

14 first name, Skoko?

15 A. Skoko is a last name.

16 Q. Oh, well, that's easy then. We'll keep him as Mr. Skoko.

17 He says: "I would agree with what Mr. Djurovic said, because even

18 when we created the Serb Assembly I thought it was the first step of the

19 steps we were taking. Despite the fact that this Assembly has broader

20 powers than the municipal assemblies, i.e. that it can adopt decisions

21 binding on the Serbian people in municipalities in which it forms a

22 majority, I nevertheless think that we should go a step further if we do

23 not want the Assembly to only make proclamations. By a step further I

24 mean the forming of ministries, bodies of power, the provision of direct

25 sources of revenue, to finance these organs."

1 Mr. Krajisnik, when he says "i.e., that it can adopt decisions

2 binding on the Serbian people in municipalities in which it forms a

3 majority," did he have in mind that indirectly a decision of this

4 Assembly, the Serb Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, would then be -- or

5 would then be followed by the Serbs in political control of that

6 municipality and would therefore become binding in that municipality?

7 A. That should be binding. Since there was complete lawlessness,

8 it's possible that this wasn't implemented. But the purpose of forming

9 the Assembly of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina was to have

10 it adopt decisions in areas where Serbs were in a majority, and we saw

11 that when we discussed the territories that wanted to stay within

12 Yugoslavia.

13 Q. And then he continues with the next paragraph: "As for the

14 municipalities, I fail to see what good will come out of creating Serbian

15 municipal assemblies within municipalities where Serbs are outvoted unless

16 important organs which will implement these decisions are formed. What

17 does the adoption of a decision at municipal level mean if there are no

18 organs of power to enforce it. It is a decision which is not binding on

19 anyone. It can be just a proclamation without any chance of being

20 implemented."

21 So, Mr. Krajisnik, was Mr. Skoko's view there also in direct

22 opposition to your own?

23 A. Yes. He was talking about municipalities, not municipal

24 parliaments. He said we should set up municipalities, so that ran counter

25 to the agenda and to my opinion.

1 Q. But he was also saying, wasn't he, in this paragraph, say if this

2 is wrong, Mr. Krajisnik, but he also appears to be saying that the

3 proposal, as it stands, for creating Serb municipal assemblies within

4 Serb-minority municipalities is pointless and won't achieve anything.

5 Isn't that what he's saying?

6 A. I didn't find it, but I read it a moment ago. It's true. He

7 thought it was pointless to set up these things.

8 Q. And then, he starts -- it's a very short paragraph towards the end

9 of list contribution, Mr. Skoko says: "As for regionalisation: I think

10 there we have to be very ..."

11 And then you as the chairman cut him off, effectively, don't you,

12 Mr. Krajisnik, and say: "Regionalisation shouldn't be discussed now."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then there is: "A deputy points out that in Banja Luka the

15 Muslims intend to -- to form two municipalities. It is a very small area,

16 and I would allow them to form a Muslim municipality, but in other areas

17 where the Serbs are dominant I would prevent them from moving in and

18 spreading."

19 And then it says: "The chairman asks the deputies not to discuss

20 what the Muslims will do. They will do what they want, not asking us

21 anything, and will not ask for our permission, and it is none of our

22 business."

23 Mr. Krajisnik, why at this point were you asking the deputies not

24 to discuss what the Muslims would do?

25 A. Because they got very far from the agenda. The topic was very

1 clear, and here they go discussing municipalities and territories again.

2 Muslims want to establish municipalities in Banja Luka. This Court has

3 heard testimony from a witness to the effect that Muslims had established

4 their municipality and their municipal assembly in Banja Luka, although it

5 didn't actually function. But what I was saying was let's stick to the

6 agenda. Let's not discuss other things. Let's go back to the subject.

7 And the Muslims, by the way, did not ask Serbs in Banja Luka for their

8 approval to form their municipal assembly. They just did it.

9 Q. And then a few lines further on, again, well, two, three,

10 paragraphs, further on, against the marginal numbering 21, it's towards

11 the foot of page 28 in the English version, you, the chairman: "The

12 chairman emphasises that we should make sure of the following:

13 " - that decisions adopted by representatives of municipalities

14 and verified by this Assembly are not in collision with regionalisation

15 and the interests of regionalisation. Can we adopt this?"

16 And your proposal is rejected, isn't it, where we see the deputies

17 say it cannot be adopted.

18 A. Yes. I wanted to put an end to this discussion about

19 regionalisation, but they rejected my proposal and a debate ensued.

20 Q. Then towards the bottom of page 28, but it's just very shortly

21 after this, after Mr. Ljubo has intervened. You again: "The Chairman

22 points out why a problem might arise in this respect, emphasising that in

23 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina approval is required of the

24 Republican Assembly. We here should require the same.

25 "... if we allow each" -- "For if we allow each municipality to

1 pursue its own policy of the Serbian people, and if that does not fit in

2 with regionalisation, we will have created chaos, then we will have to

3 deal with ourselves. I therefore think that we should pursue a policy not

4 out of line with the joint policy pursued by this Assembly. Just copy in

5 a certain way what is happening in the Republican Assembly. I do not

6 think this will disrupt things, because we will not prevent anyone from

7 creating an assembly, but will only fit in with our policy. Can we do it

8 this way?"

9 Mr. Ijacic says: "There is no need to verify either their

10 creation or fear that it might influence regionalisation. For these are

11 assemblies in the existing territorial division."

12 You say: "What does it matter if we verify them here, asks the

13 Chairman."

14 And Mr. Ijacic answers you: "Since we have recommended it to them

15 that means that they will act upon that recommendation."

16 And you say: "Unless all actions are synchronised in the policy

17 we are pursuing in Bosnia and Herzegovina ... something will go wrong. I

18 think Mr. Neskovic is right in that respect.

19 "I think that the decisions of such assemblies should be

20 verified, that's what I had in mind, emphasises the Chairman.

21 "Can we adopt such a decision?"

22 So Mr. Krajisnik, is it a fair summary to say you were just trying

23 to make sure that on a local or municipal level, people didn't go down

24 some uncontrolled route and that matters got brought back to this Assembly

25 so there could at least be some coordination and control?

1 A. That is correct. And if you remember there was that proposal from

2 the Municipal Assembly in Tuzla. Nobody had known about it. One village

3 formed an assembly. Nobody knew about it. Nobody knew even when it

4 happened. So that's -- you're right. And that was the meaning of my

5 contribution here.

6 Q. And in fact you were, we see from the next couple of paragraphs,

7 you were successful in having that adopted, weren't you, because we see

8 the second limb of the next bit: "The Assembly had agreed to adopt such a

9 decision with the following the supplement."

10 The second supplement was: "To have the decisions of groups of

11 deputies to transform themselves into assemblies of the Serbian people

12 verified by the Assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just to make it crystal clear here, two references to assemblies

15 there: "To have the decisions of groups of deputies to transform

16 themselves into assemblies of the Serbian people," talking about the

17 municipal level; correct?

18 A. Yes. This is about municipal assemblies in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

19 MPs to those municipal assemblies. And it is said that these clubs can

20 form assemblies of Serb people in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's on the

21 municipal level. Legally elected MPs can do that. Nobody else.

22 Q. And then perhaps Your Honours would just note: "The chairman

23 asked again: Can we adopt this, and who is for such a decision?" And the

24 decision is then recorded there.

25 We have then -- do you find marginal note 24, Mr. Krajisnik?

1 A. I do.

2 Q. And it starts: "I apologise for the lengthy statement I will

3 make."

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart, may I just ask for one

5 clarification?

6 Mr. Krajisnik, you as chairman asked: "Can we adopt this, and who

7 is for such a decision?" And that was a decision with the following

8 supplements, as we read above, those are these two supplements. Is this

9 the decision which we find, and then I have to take you back many, many

10 pages, what was the proposed, I would say draft decision on the

11 establishment of the Assembly of the Serbian people in the municipality

12 of, and then ..., which contains eight paragraphs? Is that the structure

13 of what you adopted, that that's how it should be done? Is that a correct

14 understanding?

15 I should take you back some 28, that would be approximately -- you

16 would find that in the B/C/S original starting at page 20 -- in the

17 numbering, 26 of the B/C/S original, the heading, and then page 27 -- the

18 only thing we find on page 26 is "odluka" and then it continues on the

19 next page with one, two, et cetera, and then up to eight. Is this

20 decision --

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I, because it may help to short

22 circuit this. I suggest that perhaps one needs to go back to what's

23 page 10 of the English, because the proposed recommendation is there, and

24 what Your Honour is drawing attention to later on, it's at page 18 of the

25 English, is the form of decision which then would be brought by such

1 assemblies if formed.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's exactly what I -- what I wanted to

3 know is whether the -- whether what the Assembly decided is that on the

4 basis of this, I would say, model decision for municipal assemblies is --

5 for municipal Serb assemblies, is that what was included in this decision,

6 to follow this model or was that totally apart from it? Because it seems

7 to be part of the discussions which then finally results in this decision

8 adopted.

9 You understand what I mean? There was quite a lot of discussion.

10 And quite a lot of confusion. And it was all about, as you tried to make

11 clear to the assembly members again and again, it was about groups of

12 assembly members in the municipalities to establish a municipal Serb

13 assembly. Was this model in how it should be done, was that part of and

14 included in the adopted decision or was that not included?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it is wrong

16 that this reference is constantly made to a decision. It's not a

17 decision; it's recommendation.

18 I have a proposal and it's by the way published in the Official

19 Gazette. This text, in large print, is about the fact that the Assembly

20 adopted two -- adopted with two amendments a draft recommendation. It's

21 on another page. It is recommended to clubs of SDS MPs in the

22 municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the Serb people are outvoted

23 in assemblies, to accept two amendments and then goes the text. The

24 decisions of these MP clubs should be transformed into assemblies of the

25 Serbian people, to be verified, and that was published in the

1 Official Gazette. It is hereby recommended, followed by the text of the

2 two amendments. That's what we endorsed at that time. And what you just

3 referred to was a draft proposal -- sorry, a draft decision, and then

4 through discussion, we arrived at a recommendation. I hope I was clear.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And now again, this -- did this recommendation

6 include this format to be used when clubs of deputies, Serb -- clubs of

7 Serb deputies would adopt or would establish a Serbian assembly, or was

8 it -- I mean, was it part of the recommendation or was it not? To use

9 this model and to guide the clubs of Serb deputies to adopt -- or to

10 establish these Serb assembly in line with the model decision that was on

11 the table? Model decision for the local assemblies.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like you to completely

13 forget about this decision. It was completely filed away because

14 everybody was against it. You should concentrate only on this: We

15 recommend to SDS and SPO MPs, in municipalities where they are regularly

16 outvoted, to turn their decisions into decisions of the Serb people in

17 that municipality.

18 The method whereby it is done is common knowledge. The MPs of

19 that municipality, of Serb ethnicity, make up this Serb Assembly, and then

20 a decision as adopted by that club, is then sent to the Serb Assembly or

21 rather the Assembly of the Serbian people to be verified. The method is

22 well known. And that decision was just the draft that we discussed, but

23 we moved very quickly to the recommendation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's the recommendation, full stop, forget

25 about what was discussed about how to do it. Okay. That's clear to me.

1 Mr. Stewart, I think we are close to 20 minutes to 6.00. Would

2 this be a suitable moment to have a break until 6.00?

3 MR. STEWART: Certainly, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until 6.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 5.39 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, the Chamber has decided upon a

8 matter which was agreed upon by the parties, that's D171 and D173 should

9 be admitted, under seal. They -- both these exhibits are admitted under

10 seal.

11 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Stewart, are you ready to continue your

13 examination?

14 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you find, please, point 26 in the margin?

16 It's still within what did turn out, I do apologise, for the lengthy

17 statement of Mr. Miskin. And he was right. It's page 36 of the English.

18 Note 26 in your margin, Mr. Krajisnik. Do you find that? You have.

19 And then going from that number, just about --

20 A. Yes, I've found it.

21 Q. Good.

22 Going about three paragraphs down, do you see a paragraph that

23 begins "given the conditions of war in the country"? Do you see that?

24 A. I see that.

25 Q. That phrase, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Miskin was talking about Croatia,

1 the Croatian war, wasn't he?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. He says: "Given the conditions of war in the country and the very

4 precarious situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina we believe that in all the

5 regions and in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina detailed contingency

6 plans should be elaborated in the event the Serbian people has to defend

7 itself against various enemies.

8 "When I say this I have in mind very concrete tasks in terms of

9 mobilisation, the securing of vital facilities, monuments of culture,

10 churches, historical archives and similar.

11 "It is necessary to secure rear support for supplies,

12 communications, et cetera, to ensure coordination, command and control, to

13 organise bodies of authority in a given area."

14 Mr. Krajisnik, were any such detailed contingency plans -- had any

15 such plans been formed at that stage within the leadership of the SDS?

16 A. It's as if I were reading this for the first time. No. This kind

17 of plan was never made.

18 Q. And then he continues: "In conclusion let me stress the

19 following:

20 " - touring some areas I observed that there was poor coordination

21 between the municipalities in certain regions, little or no political

22 activity, poor organisation, quarrels, power struggle, war profiteering

23 and similar."

24 Mr. Krajisnik, did you have reason to doubt or dispute that

25 summary in that paragraph by Mr. Miskin?

1 A. I don't know how I reacted then but, believe me, if I were to

2 listen to this today, I think it's a pamphlet, somebody who is telling a

3 story. I don't think -- well, there was a lot of demagogy but nobody knew

4 how to resolve problems. And perhaps people were better informed than I

5 was, but in this situation, when there is a lack of authority, then such

6 things are possible. Let's put it that way.

7 Q. Had you come by any information at that time which enabled you to

8 assess whether it was true that there was poor coordination between

9 municipalities, little or no political activity, poor organisation,

10 quarrels, power struggle, war profiteering and similar?

11 A. Many grave qualifications were provided here. Perhaps I should

12 define it in this way. There was a time when the government was not

13 functioning and where there was a lack of authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

14 and everybody could do whatever they wanted to, and that is how you get

15 these side effects of profiteering, power struggles and so on. I believe

16 that Mr. Jovo Miskin was right.

17 Q. Who was Mr. Jovo Miskin, by the way?

18 A. Mr. Miskin was the director of the land survey institution - I

19 think that was the name of the institution - in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He

20 was active in the former system, and as far as I can remember he was kept

21 as a Serb cadre later, and then when Republika Srpska was established --

22 or, rather, the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was founded, he was

23 still there. It is his line of work. He was a land surveyor.

24 Q. Where was he from, Mr. Krajisnik?

25 A. He was from Trebinje but he lived in Sarajevo. I think he's from

1 Trebinje or some place from Herzegovina.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm proposing to put

3 that transcript now of that third session on one side.

4 Your Honours, we come to a transcript of an intercept which is --

5 this intercept not previously been put in evidence. Your Honours, copies

6 of the transcript have been distributed. Mr. Krajisnik should have that

7 now in his own language.

8 Your Honour, it's going to be put on the screen now. Your Honour,

9 I was proposing to play it. Mr. Josse indicated yesterday it's not going

10 to be our approach to play every intercept but we do consider it

11 appropriate to play this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: A number should be assigned to it. Mr. Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D179, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Copies have been distributed, or at least we were

16 made available of a list of intercepts the Defence intended to use, but I

17 just need to know some identifying information about this one.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, the 11th of December, 1991, a conversation

19 between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, and -- well, it bears an internal

20 number, it's got a translation, it's got a number 03027319 on the English

21 translation. And it --

22 MR. JOSSE: I have some fear that I may not have notified this

23 one. My learned friends can have my copy. I don't need it. The marking

24 on the top is an internal one and can be ignored. I apologise.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we'll play it now with Your Honour's

1 permission.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

3 [Intercept played]

4 Krajisnik: Yes.

5 Karadzic: Hey, why did you get up so suddenly?

6 Krajisnik: To hell with them, both Krajina and Herzegovina, the

7 motherfuckers. One spends one's entire life working for their church and

8 for them, fuck them!

9 Karadzic: No, no, let me tell you, he is a particular idiot,

10 they ...

11 Krajisnik: To hell with him ... he ... the entire time we have

12 been working to accomplish one thing and he's started to sarcastically

13 talk about ... to hell with him!

14 Karadzic: Do you remember him from the meeting of the Main Board?

15 Krajisnik: Yes, I do.

16 Karadzic: I was almost finished, man, just about finished, and he

17 did the same, it's like milking 50 litres of milk, and he comes along and

18 pisses in the milk.

19 Krajisnik: Half the time that motherfucker, at 1330 hours he ...

20 walked out, I was watching him, he went out, it was not clear to him, he

21 then voted, well ... God ...

22 Karadzic: He is isolated over there in Prnjavor, isolated, him,

23 him.

24 Krajisnik: You know what, at the villa they did for me, those

25 people from Krajina and Herzegovina! Fuck their mothers ... and they came

1 to me tonight. I had to leave. I could not stand it any longer ...

2 Karadzic: I told these guys, here, these are the reasons why I

3 would never be a politician if we were living in a single nation state and

4 why I detest the politician's calling.

5 Krajisnik: Fuck them, I was so happy coming back from Belgrade,

6 I said how we could work, I would not be sorry to work 24 hours, but I'm

7 fucked by the people from Krajina when someone, when someone calls from

8 downstairs, damn him he came, and that is why I'm in a hurry.

9 Karadzic: This Tesic is a fool.

10 Krajisnik: And the other Tesic, damn him, what is this?

11 Karadzic: He -- he has established a still born child, if it

12 was ... if it was worth anything and had any quality, it would have

13 started walking in a year or a year and a half! Even a child starts

14 walking in a year, starts running in a year and a half. He did nothing

15 with it, did nothing, but let it exist, all right, but it's not ... not a

16 mutual aid fund.

17 Krajisnik: No, it isn't and that Ostojic wound me up, 20 minutes

18 he was holding their attention. I told you, take five minutes and say

19 whether it can be done or not. Fuck them, I tell you, when you must hold

20 on every evening, my nerves are shot. I had to leave early tonight

21 although I was sorry later, unbelievable. Fuck it.

22 Karadzic: No, no, oh, no, no, it is all right that you did, just

23 don't let it show that you are sorry. But say, this, gentlemen, is why we

24 have been enslaved for 600 years. This is why we have been enslaved for

25 600 years because no one is responsible for what they babble!!!

1 Krajisnik: Damn him, I was listening to him tonight, he doesn't

2 understand anything, nor did he give any constructive suggestions or

3 anything. Fuck him. Those people put it nicely man. It's fantastic,

4 whoever understood, only one can't, there were 20 speakers and if they all

5 want to participate in the discussion, it will still be going on in the

6 morning.

7 Karadzic: Yes. Do you know that what has to be done in the

8 future, I believe the government should act like a government or a

9 mentors' council. They should behave, prepare experts. There is not

10 enough room for every fool to debate, every fool, every bloody fool.

11 Krajisnik: Fuck it.

12 Karadzic: This was thought, well thought out, do you accept it or

13 not or do you want some other group to do it? So that I think we coddled

14 them too much, way too much, and I think we will make a proposal for that

15 to be created in the offices of some minister.

16 Krajisnik: Excellent.

17 Karadzic: Create the decision in the office of some minister,

18 say, this is better like this ...

19 Krajisnik: Is there ...

20 Karadzic: Yes, does anyone have a better idea? No one does!

21 Don't fuck around ...

22 Krajisnik: Yes.

23 Karadzic: Vote and an end to it!

24 Krajisnik: Radovan, there are so many sensible suggestions, but

25 this should now be channeled in some ...

1 Karadzic: Our people are excellent, these experts. Excellent,

2 excellent!

3 Krajisnik: The last time, that idiot Vojo, fuck his family, the

4 motherfucker, what state, the motherfucker, that I must coddle him all the

5 time, that Vucurovic, give him a state with 60.000 people, and he, too,

6 came tonight and said, Nikola, he said, we want out of Sarajevo, they, (we

7 are still very important in Krajina). What smart thing have you done in

8 Krajina, tell me one smart thing you did?

9 Karadzic: The fools, fools.

10 Krajisnik: Where are you? Are you at the party premises?

11 Karadzic: I have just come home.

12 Krajisnik: You've arrived?!

13 Karadzic: Yes.

14 Krajisnik: I was sorry later, but I could not stand it, I could

15 have exploded, damn him.

16 Karadzic: Don't, look after your heart, fuck him. But listen,

17 you should know that when Vidic gets up to talk he is going to bullshit!

18 Krajisnik: Not him, Vidic is not a problem for me, let me tell

19 you, it has all accumulated in me. I've had enough of Radic who goes to

20 the rostrum and says 'we.' Had enough of Vucurovic coming up and saying

21 'we,' and I've had enough of that guy from the SPO from down there, who

22 says 'we,' and then ...

23 Karadzic: Their horns should all be crushed.

24 Krajisnik: They will remember that Vucurovic from down from

25 lovely Lepa Prstenica, stupid man. Damn them, we've snapped working 24

1 hours a day and he comes and says ... that was the straw that broke the

2 camel's back tonight.

3 Karadzic: Yeah.

4 Krajisnik: When he says sarcastically it seems that it is unclear

5 only to those from Sarajevo, and is clear to those from Krajina.

6 Karadzic: Yes, yes ... and we are not asleep here, damn them.

7 Krajisnik: Fuck it, I can't seem to recover, fucking life, I have

8 lost ...

9 Karadzic: Do you remember when I used to talk like that? Do you

10 remember when I said that?

11 Krajisnik: Yes, you did.

12 Karadzic: When I said, go fuck yourselves.

13 Krajisnik: He did not come up. I had just come up with an idea.

14 Let's [illegible], I owed it to them, and I get up and say, come on

15 people, the process, it's a process man, no, you cannot introduce it in

16 24 hours, you have to make it, the people have a right. They made more

17 than I hoped for, I could not even dream that they would do this.

18 Radovan, I understand that.

19 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

20 Krajisnik: But, you know what means when person says, we can ...

21 contribute the way the republic does. Fantastic! We'll do it and just

22 say that everyone must pay and that is final!

23 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

24 Krajisnik: May you found three chapters man, it's a major thing!

25 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

1 Krajisnik: You will not create a state and create all of this

2 without war, right? Everyone knows how it is done!!!

3 Karadzic: Yes, yes ...

4 Krajisnik: Fuck him. How did you end? Damn, I did it wrong.

5 Karadzic: I did not ... they were ... were sacked, all I asked of

6 them was to give their consent to authorise a group of authors to respond

7 to the arbitration committee.

8 Krajisnik: Fuck it, I did not want to, I wanted to get rid of

9 them all, they, they can all fuck off. Let me tell you, I believe I,

10 everything that I'm doing ...

11 Karadzic: Listen, what do I ...

12 Krajisnik: I give myself over to it completely.

13 Karadzic: You don't have to tell me, it is all clear. I tell

14 you, look, ah, I think you now have five per cent monkeys, I founded a

15 party where 80 per cent were monkeys. Do you remember Srebrov, Bozana,

16 Skora, that Askera, this one and that one? Can you imagine what it was

17 like in the beginning?

18 Krajisnik: No, but I am frustrated by the fact that people have

19 no idea, damn them. Everything we have done ... Herzegovina, Krajina,

20 Herzegovina, Krajina ...

21 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

22 Krajisnik: Fuck it. I was so frustrated tonight when Rajko came

23 tonight and he talked about regions. I will have nothing to do with

24 Novi Grad, man. He especially made me angry, and so did the Centar

25 municipality. Create a Serbian Assembly and say ... ignore the one up

1 there!

2 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

3 Krajisnik: No, don't man, don't it as long as they keep outvoting

4 us.

5 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

6 Krajisnik: There is, every 'we' in Prnjavor, and 'we' there, and

7 naturally you talk about the way it is for you.

8 Karadzic: Yes.

9 Krajisnik: You do not think about the people who cannot live.

10 Karadzic: Yes, yes.

11 Krajisnik: What have we achieved then? No sooner have you

12 navigated it than the JNA, that drunk up there, what's the name of the one

13 from Pale? He comes to the rostrum and says, he will explain order to

14 someone. To hell with him.

15 Karadzic: To hell with them. Tell me this, the chambers are in

16 session tomorrow, right?

17 Krajisnik: Yes. I do not know who will sit in for Kljujic in the

18 chamber. I have no idea.

19 Karadzic: Isn't he going to the chamber session, he used to

20 earlier after he had decided that this was the thing to do.

21 Krajisnik: I told Vojo there is a crisis in the chamber and

22 that -- and look, man, half of them from Krajina do not come. He comes

23 along cool as a cucumber, then some of the ones down there, there are some

24 nice people down there, but 99 per cent are rogues and so is he ... but I

25 had had enough, go away, ...

1 Karadzic: Yes, no, he is always the first, the first to start the

2 discussion and he's forever spitting on and blackening something. He only

3 sees the dark side of things, that is what he is for always. He was

4 always ready to side with the SPO, always you know. Pure madmen whose

5 eyes dance on the top of their heads, that is all and their beards sprout,

6 and all of this is borderline SPO.

7 Krajisnik: And I get all the theatrical ones, fuck them ...

8 Karadzic: All right, come on ...

9 Krajisnik: Listen, Radovan!

10 Karadzic: What?

11 Krajisnik: The Serbs up there are going to come up with lots of

12 these ideas in the Assembly, at meetings ...

13 Karadzic: I can't hear you well.

14 Krajisnik: I said there were quite a few good ideas at the

15 meeting up there in Belgrade.

16 Karadzic: Aha.

17 Krajisnik: I believe it is basic ...

18 Karadzic: Don't, don't they are listening in any way, so ...

19 Krajisnik: No, no, let me tell you, I didn't mean that, let me

20 tell you, I believe that we must do something for the well-being of all

21 people, you know.

22 Karadzic: Fine.

23 Krajisnik: We will come when you have a little time and then

24 we'll talk.

25 Karadzic: All right. I will fly up there tomorrow. I have ...

1 Krajisnik: Eh?

2 Karadzic: I'll fly tomorrow to B ...

3 Krajisnik: All right, fine ...

4 Karadzic: After the press conference, you know?

5 Krajisnik: Aha, we'll talk.

6 Karadzic: Yes, we'll talk."

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just a very practical matter, I moved to the French

8 channel. I didn't hear any translation. That would mean that we would

9 have an incomplete transcript.

10 Could I be informed about the existence of a French translation?

11 Yes, I should perhaps move to the French channel now to hear from the

12 French interpreters.

13 [No English interpretation]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, but perhaps there is some

15 misunderstanding, but I think earlier we agreed upon a procedure in which

16 one of the interpreters would read and follow from the spoken words

17 whether the translation as we have them on paper but, of course, there is

18 no French translation, whether that would be reflect -- would reflect the

19 original in B/C/S, but then, of course, it might go beyond what I could

20 ask from the French interpreters.

21 For the time being, I established that there is no French

22 transcript at this moment. It would not bother us that much in working at

23 this moment but we'll further consider how to deal with that. Perhaps by

24 having it translated at a later stage from the written text, from which I

25 do understand that at least the English booth has followed the text and

1 has identified the English translation as a translation which reflects the

2 B/C/S original, although pronunciation of those English words was only

3 done by the other interpreter and a little bit behind what I would say we

4 would have read. Whatever way we'll finally resolve this matter, and

5 we'll give it some further attention, at least it's now on the record that

6 there is no French transcript yet.

7 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you referred early in this conversation -- well,

10 first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, you confirm and accept this was a

11 conversation between you and Dr. Karadzic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you've no reason to doubt that it was on the 11th of December,

14 1991, and apparently shortly after the assembly session that we have just

15 been considering this afternoon?

16 A. You're right.

17 Q. And early in this conversation, you say: "To hell with them, both

18 Krajina and Herzegovina" and so on. And Dr. Karadzic responds: "No, no,

19 let me tell you, he is a particular idiot." Who was being talked about

20 there?

21 A. First of all, I have to apologise for this Krajisnik, the

22 Krajisnik that you heard on that tape. I was so irritated, and I simply

23 can't recognise myself in the person who is talking. And I especially

24 apologise to the ladies present, but to the gentlemen as well.

25 This was about Dobrivoj Vidic from Prnjavor. He absolutely made

1 me blow my top and I had to walk out of that assembly session.

2 Q. Sorry, that was about who from Prnjavor?

3 A. Dobrivoj Vidic. Without hearing this intercept, I would have had

4 any doubts -- I would have had doubts about this conversation but I have

5 to believe it, that the person who is using so much profanity is indeed

6 me.

7 That -- the person we were talking about was a MP from Prnjavor,

8 Dobrivoj Vidic. He's not a bad man, generally speaking, but he really

9 made me angry then. But it's my fault rather than his.

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, there is a reference to "they came to me tonight, I

11 had to leave, I couldn't stand it any longer."

12 Did you receive some visit or delegation after the assembly

13 session? Is that what happened?

14 A. No, no. I meant those people who irritated me. They came up to

15 me, and their rhetoric was let's go and make a Serb state in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas I tried to talk reason into them and that we

17 should establish a ministerial council. Those in Krajina had their own

18 region; in Herzegovina they had their own region. So there occurred a

19 misunderstanding there. My nerves were shot and I couldn't take it any

20 longer.

21 And there was a proposal tabled there that a delegation should go

22 to attend an assembly session of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was discussed

23 as well. So it was all very muddled and it created a bad atmosphere, bad

24 feeling.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, would you allow me to just seek some

1 clarification?

2 Was the whole telephone conversation about what happened during

3 this meeting of which we have seen the stenographic meetings before?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are certain references to

5 Belgrade here. I can't remember which exactly meeting I had attended in

6 Belgrade, but I did brief them about some meeting in Belgrade. It all

7 refers anyway to the assembly session that we had been analysing and that

8 conflict, as far as I can see from this.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps more specifically in the beginning, where

10 only five lines from the beginning, you say: "To hell with him. He, the

11 entire time we have been working to accomplish one thing and he started."

12 Was that about the 11 December assembly meeting?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you look at these minutes,

14 towards the end, Mr. Vidic says, it's not sarcastic, it's not cynical. I

15 suppose I meant him. Maybe he had attended the meeting of the club or

16 something. I'm not sure.

17 I looked a moment ago at the end of the minutes, and I see that he

18 used that word, so that makes me think he was the one I meant. I'm trying

19 to picture who exactly I meant. I think he is a definite possibility.

20 You can see that at the end, towards the end of the minutes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And a few lines later, it says: "Half the time that

22 motherfucker he walked out. I was watching him."

23 Was that still about this assembly meeting?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He kept walking out of the session.

25 The person I was talking about kept walking out of the session. He walks

1 out, then he comes back, and he says, "I can't understand a thing." He

2 keeps walking out and coming back and saying that he doesn't get it. He

3 doesn't understand what the discussion is about.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking you since -- and I'll verify this in the

5 original -- the -- both B/C/S original and translation say that at -- the

6 assembly meeting was held between 1645 and 2200 hours, whereas reference

7 here specifically is made to what happened at half past 1.00 in the

8 afternoon, where it says: "At 1330 hours, he walked out." So I'm trying

9 to reconcile this information, which seems a bit contradicting.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, can you tell me where

11 this 1645 is? I can't find it in my --

12 JUDGE ORIE: You find it in your B/C/S original. We have the

13 first page is handwritten, then the second page is, I would say, another

14 cover page, and then the third page, last four digits on the top, 4933, in

15 the original, then it's on the right-hand, just before the real text

16 starts, where you are speaking. It says 1645 until 22.

17 Oh, no, Mr. Krajisnik, the -- I was now referring to the

18 stenographic notes, and I find the 1330 at approximately the -- well, the

19 first -- fifth time you're speaking it's translated into English "as half

20 the time that motherfucker at 1330 hours he walked out."

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please give me a second to try to

22 find it.

23 You see in the original it says -- I will not repeat the

24 profanity. It says: "It's halfway to halfway to 2. He went out, I look

25 at him. He walks out and then he doesn't understand, then he votes."

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's the time. If you say halfway to 2, is

2 that the same as 1.30 p.m.? Because then I again have not resolved the

3 problem of the stenographic transcript indicating more or less that it

4 would have started at a quarter to 5.00 and would have lasted until 10.00

5 in the evening.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's halfway, meaning

7 halfway through the session, and then half 2, I meant -- what I meant was

8 halfway through the session. That was a problem for translators.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps this could be resolved only by

10 relistening to the tape. Since it's in the very, very beginning, it's

11 only after one minute, could we replay that small portion to see whether

12 there is any problem or whether it could be understood as interpreted as

13 halfway the meeting?

14 MR. STEWART: Yes, we can do that straight away, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we do it straight away so that we verify

16 the matter.

17 There is no need at this moment to have it translated. I'm just

18 inviting the interpreters to check whether on approximately the fifth

19 time, I think, Mr. Krajisnik is reported to have spoken, whether it

20 says: "1.30 p.m.," or whether it says: "Halfway."

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, may we say something, Your

22 Honour? With respect we heard it the first time and we read it in the

23 text. It is recorded as it is said on tape. But it is totally

24 ungrammatical and incoherent, and it doesn't help to hear the tape again.

25 It is as inarticulate as it sounds in English, halfway, half to 2,

1 literally.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The halfway.

3 [Audiotape played]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so the interpreters at this moment take the

5 position that from the original text, no -- no interpretation could be

6 confirmed that it should be translated as 1.30 p.m. apart from what else

7 it should have been.

8 THE INTERPRETER: What we heard on tape right now seems to mean

9 that he was out half the time.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That gives -- that would resolve the assumed

11 contradiction.

12 And Mr. Stewart, you're invited to proceed.

13 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour, we are content with

14 that. Thank you.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you said in your -- one of your answers, this

16 afternoon rather than in the tape, you - it's lines 7 and 8 on page 75,

17 for the transcript reference - said, Mr. Vidic, "he absolutely made me

18 blow my top. And I had to walk out of that assembly session."

19 So whatever walking out there was -- is that right, that you at

20 some point yourself walked out of the assembly session, before it --

21 before it finished?

22 A. Yes. I made a point of walking out demonstratively leaving them

23 before it was over. I had never done that before, but I really had enough

24 that time. And I'm saying again, it's my fault. I should have stayed

25 until the end and taken it, but I did walk out.

1 Q. When you walked out, then, did you go back or was that it? That

2 was -- that was the end of the session, as far as your participation was

3 concerned?

4 A. No, I didn't finish the session. I walked out of the session. I

5 left them behind. I got into my car and went home.

6 Mr. Stewart planted this on me, this intercept. It's embarrassing

7 but I have to face it. That's the way it was.

8 Q. I think we've recovered from the language, Mr. Krajisnik.

9 The --

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think perhaps page 73 gives the solution where it

11 says: "My dear gentlemen, this session is adjourned. Thank you very

12 much." Then it reads: "Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik leaves and then Mr.

13 Maksimovic continues.

14 And just the line before that, the text reads: "No one has ever

15 upset me as much as Mr. Vidic has," which seems to be completely in line

16 with the testimony just received from Mr. Krajisnik.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. There is a reference there, you mentioned it, you picked it up

19 yourself, Mr. Krajisnik. You said: "I was so happy coming back from

20 Belgrade. I said how we could work. I would not be sorry to work 24

21 hours."

22 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, whatever exactly it was, your reference to

23 coming back from Belgrade, what had you come back from in Belgrade? Some

24 sort of meeting or what?

25 A. I don't know what the reason was. Maybe we could find it

1 somewhere in the minutes, whether it was the Belgrade Initiative or

2 something else. I can't recall precisely now. But it must be somewhere

3 in some newspaper, because I went there as the Speaker of the Assembly.

4 It was a public visit. Maybe I was proposing to them the

5 Belgrade Initiative or something and they wanted something more.

6 I really can't remember what it was that I brought back from

7 Belgrade, but if I had been to Belgrade, it was a public visit because I

8 was a speaker of -- I was the Speaker of the parliament of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I couldn't have gone there in secret. And I

10 certainly couldn't have gone there on my own. It must have been something

11 to do with the crisis, the quest for some solution.

12 Q. It seems to suggest, Mr. Krajisnik, but say whether this is wrong,

13 that whatever you were happy about coming back from Belgrade was being in

14 some way undermined or damaged by some of your colleagues in the Serb

15 Assembly. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes. They had a totally different approach. They wanted

17 something more radical. They were not happy. That's probably what it was

18 about.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek clarification. Who was meant by "they"

20 at this moment? Those who were in Belgrade or those he found upon his

21 return in the Assembly?

22 MR. STEWART:

23 Q. Do you see, Mr. Krajisnik, they wanted something more radical and

24 were not happy. His Honour is just wanting it to be crystal clear

25 who "they" were who were wanting something more radical and were not

1 happy?

2 A. Those MPs who made me angry. I meant them.

3 Q. And they included, it appears, they must do, that idiot, Vojo and

4 you're talking there about Mr. Kupresanin, are you?

5 A. There were several people called Vojo, so I really can't guess who

6 it was now. I think that was him. Anyway, I used that epithet to

7 describe one of those Vojos. It must be him, yeah.

8 Q. When you said -- you said it's quite far on in this relatively

9 short transcript, but in the English it's page 3 of the transcript,

10 towards the top, you said: "He did not come up. I had just come up with

11 an idea. Let's" -- something illegible -- "I owed it to them and I get up

12 and say, Come on people, the process, it's a process, man, no, you cannot

13 introduce it in -- in 24 hours."

14 Do you --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. "You cannot introduce it in 24 hours. You have to

17 make it. The people have a right. They made more than I hoped for. I

18 could not even dream they would do this. Radovan, I understood that."

19 From the language, Mr. Krajisnik, it's perhaps not absolutely

20 clear whether this is part of your complaint about the way things had gone

21 in the assembly session or not. Is it part of your general

22 dissatisfaction and annoyance at the way things had gone?

23 A. Representatives of the ministerial council, meaning ministers on

24 the cabinet of Bosnia-Herzegovina, made a presentation, and in that

25 presentation, they were talking about what it was possible to do regarding

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this guy says, again, we are making some sort

2 of Broz state, meaning Tito's style state, and I reply we cannot do it

3 overnight. Whatever we do, it takes a process. The process of

4 negotiation, of talks.

5 So this is a reference to people who had made reports at the

6 assembly session, and now they were advocating something more radical than

7 what was contained in the reports. All of them were ministers in the

8 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serb ministers, Simovic, Kapetina

9 and others. That is the report that they made to the Assembly.

10 Q. And your view as to how realistic their position was was what?

11 A. They were realists, and those people who made me angry they were

12 advocating something unrealistic, something radical. And I was telling

13 them, look, people, that is war then. You are asking for something that

14 lacks touch with reality, and that's bad.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to know -- I

17 repeat, could we stop beating around the bush, please, and could you

18 please tell us once and for all, Mr. Krajisnik, what these people wanted.

19 You say they want something more radical, something more extremist. So

20 tell us what they wanted, you know, and tell us what you heard. What were

21 the proposals that were made? Something more extremist, more radical

22 doesn't mean anything to me. I want to know what they were setting, what

23 they were proposing and what was shocking you and what you couldn't

24 accept.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's all written here

1 in the shorthand notes but I'm going to try to explain.

2 Those ministers were propounding a programme, a platform, relying

3 on Bosnia and Herzegovina, whereas those people were talking about

4 regions, discussing payment transactions, health care, et cetera, and that

5 was not consistent with our policy. We did not -- it meant that we didn't

6 only want the Serb Assembly to discuss only vital national interests. It

7 meant that we were asking for a Serb state in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

8 that made us -- that would have made us the same as the other sides. And

9 that was wrong at that time because it would have given justification to

10 the other side to refuse negotiations, and negotiations were necessary in

11 order to arrive at a solution.

12 I don't know if I made it clear but that's what is written here.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm also looking at the clock at this

15 moment. Unless you would have one or more questions which could be dealt

16 with in two minutes, I'd rather adjourn.

17 MR. STEWART: Not realistically, Your Honour, no. Thank you for

18 asking.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Krajisnik, I again instruct you not

20 to speak with anyone about the testimony given already or still about to

21 be given.

22 We will adjourn until next Tuesday morning, 9.00.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Courtroom III, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Courtroom III. A good weekend to all.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of May,

2 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

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