Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24343

1 Friday, 19 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Josse, you asked for further guidance as to the time still

11 available for the examination-in-chief of Mr. Krajisnik. We hope to give

12 that to you later this afternoon, and if we do not manage to do that it

13 will not be later than Monday morning.

14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Krajisnik, I'll remind you that you're

16 bound -- still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

17 beginning of your testimony, and I'll invite Mr. Josse to continue his

18 examination-in-chief.

19 Mr. Josse, please proceed.

20 MR. JOSSE: Could I deal with one practical matter?


22 MR. JOSSE: I understand that Mr. Krajisnik has brought to the

23 Chamber this morning various documents. I think they're documents that

24 involve Mr. Davidovic. He's provided five copies; they're with the

25 registrar at the moment.

Page 24344


2 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, what I'm not clear about is whether those

3 are the documents that need to go to me first of all to assess --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not -- if there are any documents given to the

5 registrar, I'd like to see them so that ...

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MR. JOSSE: And there's apparently a CD. I don't know anything

8 about that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: There is a CD which, from what I see, contains copies

10 of documents and -- if you would just give me a minute to have a look at

11 them. It's -- I'm just trying to -- to see what we are talking about.

12 First of all I see a few -- copies of a few pages of Mr. Owen's book,

13 Balkan Odyssey, and what I see is that it very much gives me the

14 impression that these are the same pages but we have a B/C/S copy and a --

15 different, of course, in numbering, but the same pages in B/C/S and in

16 English. Then we have a copy with some underlining in the text of page

17 178 of a book which at least bears the word "catastrophe" in its title.

18 In B/C/S only, not any English translation.

19 Then we have -- it gives me the impression that it would be

20 something coming from Bijeljina, something that -- what seems to be, at

21 first sight -- well, let's say another document from the north-East

22 Bosnia. I see another -- what seems to be a decision of the 18th of

23 November, 1994, which is far beyond -- and which seems to be a decision

24 from Bijeljina. Then we have another document, 4th of July, 1995, from

25 Bijeljina as well; and then a document from the 4th of September, 1993;

Page 24345

1 and one document which is -- it mainly is about Bijeljina.

2 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, is it more or less right what I said

3 about what kind of documents we have in front of us? And could you tell

4 us what's on the CD-ROM. Is that copies of the same documents or are they

5 different matters on the CD-ROM?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On CD-ROM there are all documents

7 but one plus all the statements of certain witnesses concerning Davidovic.

8 All this concerns Davidovic and one protected witness we mentioned

9 yesterday.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And is it your wish that they'll be given to

11 Mr. Josse in order for him to have a look at them and see whether they

12 could be of any use for the examination-in-chief for the times to come

13 or -- is that what you intend to do -- what you wish me to do with it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you said yesterday that

15 if I have any documents concerning Mr. Davidovic I should bring them

16 today. I brought five copies for everybody. Those are Davidovic

17 documents, and this supplement here concerning Mr. Owen and Mr. Zimmermann

18 is related to the protected witness. I wanted to tell you today what I

19 intended to produce to Mr. Davidovic back at that time. If the Defence

20 does not have these documents, I can give them those concerning Davidovic.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you noticed- and I informed Mr. Josse yesterday

22 on the relevant passages of the testimony of Mr. Davidovic. I pointed at

23 the pages, the date at least, and what more or less happened ...

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, we'll give them to Mr. Josse.

Page 24346

1 Mr. Josse is -- if he was not yesterday, then certainly today he's fully

2 aware of all the procedural aspects involved. He'll give it some thought

3 on whether he sees -- because it's clear now that it would be your wish to

4 have them brought to the attention of the Chamber. He will, from his

5 professional point of view, he'll certainly see whether there's any -- any

6 way of introducing these documents into evidence. And then Mr. Josse will

7 address the Chamber on the matter if he sees any possibility to do so. If

8 not, then at the end of your testimony -- of course, you're free again to

9 talk to Mr. Josse and you would have an opportunity to discuss further

10 with him whether at that moment, apart from whether it would need any

11 recall of Mr. Krajisnik as a witness, whether there would be any

12 possibility to have them introduced into evidence, unless the Prosecution

13 would have any objection against handing out these documents at this

14 moment to Mr. Josse.

15 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, would you please pass this to

17 Defence counsel.

18 MR. JOSSE: Could I have all five sets, please?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, saves you the copying, isn't it?

20 MR. JOSSE: Well, that wasn't what I had in mind.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there are other reasons as well. It's not for

22 us to look at unless you have --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may. If this is

24 the procedure, then I would like to have your permission to add something

25 to my yesterday's testimony regarding those witnesses. I can add it as a

Page 24347

1 summary. It's in response to the questions of Mr. Josse concerning

2 Mr. Davidovic and the protected witness. I just want to point something

3 out.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What you say at this moment, since you have no direct

5 possibility of introducing these documents, that you would like to add to

6 your answers given yesterday. Mr. Krajisnik, I explain one thing for you.

7 Of course the Chamber, without even knowing what they are and aware of all

8 the problems that we could expect if we now introduce in a -- in an

9 informal way and not in accordance with Rule 92 bis any of these

10 statements, of course the Chamber could decide that they could be

11 admitted, but there -- first of all, the Chamber would, from a procedural

12 point of view, not be surprised if an objection would come - and I see

13 Mr. Harmon nodding "yes." That's one. So it would need certainly more, I

14 would say, procedural debate before we could take such a decision. But

15 there's also another matter involved.

16 Mr. Josse, your Defence counsel, are under a duty to look after

17 carefully your interest. The Chamber, by not knowing what is in these

18 documents, by deciding that they could be admitted could admit documents

19 which, apart from the points you wanted to draw our attention to, could

20 admit material which might not in every respect be favourable. And it's

21 finally up to Defence counsel - perhaps together with you but

22 communication is difficult at this moment - it's for Defence counsel to

23 assess whether any such risks do exist. They may well not be there, but

24 it's proper to give an opportunity to Defence counsel before we even start

25 the procedural debate to see whether it would, on the balance of what you

Page 24348

1 seek and what they might perceive as risks, to consider whether we should

2 enter in such a debate at all.

3 Mr. Josse, is that more or less what you would have put to

4 Mr. Krajisnik if you --

5 MR. JOSSE: With respect, I'm not arguing with a word that

6 Your Honour has said. Having said that, I would invite Mr. Krajisnik to

7 add any supplementary remarks that he might have, which is a -- which may

8 be a slightly different issue to the one that Your Honour has just raised.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was not commenting on that; I was just

10 commenting on why the Chamber at this moment remitted the documents to you

11 and did not -- just without full knowledge say: Well, we accept these

12 documents, apart from the procedural debate that would be necessary

13 anyhow, but also for the other reasons why we could not at this moment

14 even start such a debate. But of course this would not prevent you in any

15 way inviting Mr. Krajisnik to add to his answers he gave yesterday. May I

16 then take it this would be your first question?

17 MR. JOSSE: It is.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, two things. First of all, I'm going to ask you to

22 add anything you want in relation to Mr. Davidovic; therefore, I'm going

23 to invite the Chamber to go into private session in any event. So let's

24 deal with it in that manner. Do bear in mind what the learned Judge told

25 you today and yesterday. What you can't do is simply tell the Chamber

Page 24349

1 what is contained within statements that have been obtained on your behalf

2 by investigators or other people. But go ahead, please.

3 A. I will do my best to abide by those guidelines.

4 Yesterday I was asked to comment on the statement of Mr. Davidovic

5 that he had seen a document I signed not in 1992. Although it was not in

6 1992, he saw the document in the hands of Mr. Vojislav [as interpreted]

7 Djurkovic. He did not see the date on the document, but he allegedly saw

8 the signature of Momcilo Krajisnik. I can say that concerning exchanges

9 of civilians or prisoners of war, Mr. Vojkan Djurkovic was in charge, and

10 it is necessary to establish, in my opinion, evidence as to when he took

11 over that job; in other words, to establish whether the document itself

12 originates from 1992, 1993, or 1994. I assert before this Court that

13 Witness Vojislav Djurkovic, to the best of my knowledge, could only have

14 taken that post overseeing exchanges of prisoners in July 1993. And any

15 document related to those affairs could only be from that date or later.

16 And it was my intention to prove this through the documents I have

17 produced.

18 There's another thing I want to point out regarding Mr. Davidovic.

19 It is a great pity - and Mr. Josse did not ask me this - that some other

20 incriminating things he mentioned have not been checked, like that I took

21 money from the customs to Pale. I said yesterday that I didn't take any

22 money at all, I didn't carry any money ever. But this is a specific case,

23 and some sort of receipt should be found from that institution to prove

24 this. You can only take my word for it, and I'm saying that I didn't, but

25 unfortunately there is no document to prove this. The customs office

Page 24350

1 keeps documents for three years or so.

2 Second, he stated that he had been at Mount Jahorina providing

3 security to the government in the month of April and early May. I wish to

4 point out -- I hope I did not digress from the subject. I wish to point

5 out that this is not true because the government went to Jahorina only in

6 end May and early June, and we were able to see that from statements that

7 speak to the contrary of that assertion of that witness.

8 You also questioned me yesterday about the seizure of vehicles

9 that were confiscated. You asked me if I had any knowledge about this.

10 There is evidence - and I found one case by chance - that one vehicle was

11 indeed seized and the document was signed by Mr. Davidovic as signing that

12 vehicle to the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what I managed to find

13 out, and I said yesterday that such things did occur during the war.

14 Another thing I wanted to say is that we have a trial here but

15 also in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Mr. Davidovic said, for reasons I cannot

16 begin to understand, that Mr. Karadzic and I quarrelled very badly about

17 the distribution of money, about the division of money, in New York.

18 Initially he said New York in 1992 and then in Geneva or I don't know

19 where. I tried to find evidence about this, although he didn't even

20 mention who exactly was involved, and I wasn't able to establish who was

21 in our group at the time or anything else. All I can say is that this is

22 complete fabrication.

23 Another thing. I was asked yesterday to try to guess the

24 motivation of Mr. Davidovic for lying, if I think he's lying. He sounded

25 very convincing, and I tried to think of what could have possibly

Page 24351

1 motivated him. I could only think of the fact that he was in the

2 communist party and I wasn't; that's one reason. Another thing. There

3 are documents to prove that he was decorated for his participation before

4 the war in Kosovo as a member of a special unit. He could also have seen

5 the SDS as the main culprit, and he testified against me possibly because

6 of the abundance of disinformation that circulated. And he may have seen

7 me as the main culprit, the representative of that SDS that replaced him

8 from his post of chief of police.

9 Third, when he was in the federal MUP, he used to sign documents

10 as chief of police of Bijeljina. He did not actually occupy that post,

11 which goes to show that he did certain things of his own accord,

12 arbitrarily. It is also my impression that the man is obviously a brave

13 policeman who had his place in a former system, and nowadays, being very

14 disappointed, he put all this disinformation together to incriminate me.

15 And lastly, I wish to emphasise that I don't know the man, nor did

16 I ever sit down together with him.

17 And in conclusion let me say that I can provide documents to prove

18 all the things that I say -- that I said that I wasn't at Pale, that he

19 signed certain papers, et cetera.

20 Q. The papers that you say he has signed, is that in the bundle that

21 you provided this morning?

22 A. Yes, it is, and it was my intention to provide copies for everyone

23 in the courtroom but my lawyer has taken them all.



Page 24352

1 Q. I like paper, Mr. Krajisnik. We will return to this subject

2 sometime next week, I suspect.

3 A. Now, about this second witness, the protected one.

4 Q. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into --

6 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- Private session.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 24353











11 Pages 24353-24355 redacted. Private session.















Page 24356

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

16 You may proceed, Mr. Josse.


18 Q. I'd like to go back and deal with a few more intercepts, please.

19 MR. JOSSE: Could Mr. Krajisnik have the bundle of intercepts --

20 he has his own, I beg your pardon, Madam Usher.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is the one, then that's it,

22 the one I've got. Yes?

23 JUDGE ORIE: You're going to tell us which number on the list,

24 Mr. --

25 MR. JOSSE: Yes, it's 188 in the left-hand margin.

Page 24357


2 MR. JOSSE: This is P292 KID31425, also P389 KID31425. It's a --

3 it's a conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and a Mr. Mijatovic, and then

4 later on between Mr. Krajisnik and a Mr. Vladusic.

5 Q. Before we look at the conversation, Mr. Krajisnik, or bits of

6 because it's quite long, who is Mr. Mijatovic?

7 A. Mr. Mijatovic was the president of the Executive Board of the

8 Rajlovac municipality and my kum. That is to say my father was godfather

9 to his family.

10 Q. And Mr. Vladusic, who was he?

11 A. Mr. Vladusic was a distant relevant. His mother and my father

12 were brother and sister, so he's a cousin.

13 Q. Now, this intercept was played to this Court on the 2nd of

14 November of 2004 at page 7833 of the transcript during the evidence of a

15 man called Elvir Jahic. There was a very lengthy, or relatively lengthy,

16 legal argument as to whether the witness was in a position to say that

17 this intercept was in some way proof that you knew about the detention of

18 men in the system close to Ahatovici. For what it's worth, it's not

19 entirely clear to me whether the witness did in fact say that. However,

20 it's clearly the Prosecution case that this intercept is evidence or gives

21 rise to an inference that you did have that knowledge. In particular

22 there are two passages that, as I understand it, the Prosecution rely

23 upon.

24 On page 2 in the English, you say to Mr. Mijatovic: "Because they

25 have released some men. They went from here. They are back again. Yes,

Page 24358

1 yes, so they are attacking, aren't they?"

2 Mijatovic: "Yes, that's it."

3 Krajisnik: "Well, you see it. You are a smart man, so that ..."

4 Mijatovic: "You know, you know what -- why is this part now to

5 say so separated military and civilian.

6 Krajisnik: "Yes."

7 Mijatovic: "Well, here I think we -- these women, they're

8 accommodated I think ... As many as was possible ... Women, children,

9 and old men with certain conditions. And the military part, that is for

10 the military police, and that part there will be processed and so on.

11 They are investigating, completing it, and now what are they going to

12 process. Believe me that I don't know."

13 Now, this is going to be a rather long question, but I'd now like

14 to turn to page 4 in the English, and I am going to ask you,

15 Mr. Krajisnik -- I am going to tell you the place in your language in a

16 moment. I am going to ask you to read a bit of in slowly because we,

17 perhaps, have some translation issues. The passage I'd like you to read

18 from is on the 5th page in the B/C/S, and it is very near the top of the

19 page that begins "nema toga." I'd like to read what you say there, then

20 what Mr. Vladusic says, then what you and he say thereafter. Read it

21 slowly, please?

22 THE INTERPRETER: May we have a reference in English, please?

23 MR. JOSSE: In English it's page 4, but I would invite the

24 interpreters to try and, of course, interpret what the witness is saying

25 rather than what's written down in English. The purpose of the exercise.

Page 24359

1 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, at the same time it would be good if

2 they can see how it was translated --

3 MR. JOSSE: Of course --

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- so they can compare and see whether they identify

5 any portion of which might need a review.


7 Q. All right, Mr. Krajisnik, if you would be so kind.

8 A. Yes, I've understood that you want me to read that part of the

9 text.

10 Krajisnik, that's me: "There's no one who should now ...

11 Innocent people, because they're Muslims, because somebody has provided

12 them with weapons, if they've done nothing, if they've surrendered, from

13 Gacanovici, you know, thank God, what's over there."

14 And then Ljubisa Vladusic says: "Wait. Can you influence the

15 situation in any way?"

16 Krajisnik: "Yes, I can, and I told that soldiers. Nobody must do

17 anything. They are now -- yes, I understand doing ... Nobody must do

18 anything that's not proper, whether it be a Muslim, nobody should kill

19 him. Heaven forbid."

20 Vladusic: "I discussed that with Mirko, and I'm very pleased to

21 see that he thinks the same way, and you have an identical opinion and I'm

22 very happy to hear that. Because I thought that, that involved that there

23 was a lot involved with all that."

24 Krajisnik: "No way."

25 Q. Yes, thank you?

Page 24360

1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, may I make this observation. Your Honour

2 might recall --

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you would just let me re-read and compare the

4 translation as we receive it now.

5 Yes.

6 MR. JOSSE: When this evidence was originally given, Your Honour

7 spent some time, very helpfully, clarifying with Mr. Jahic that the

8 reference to Gacanovic was, in fact, Gacanovici. That was of course

9 clarified during the Prosecution case and that Gacanovici, what Mr. Jahic

10 meant, was a large family as well as some reference to a village. So that

11 part had been previously clarified.



14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, those two passages, that is the one on page 4 in

15 the English and the one at the very beginning on page 2, that -- as I've

16 already said, the Prosecution assert gives rise to an inference that you

17 knew about what was going on in the cisterns. What do you say about that?

18 A. I knew - and from this conversation you can see that and probably

19 before that as well - that a certain number of Muslims had been taken

20 prisoner from the village of Ahatovici, which is the neighbouring village

21 in the Rajlovac region, in the Rajlovac garrison, in the cisterns or

22 whatever, so I knew about that. Now, this is a conversation that is

23 linked to that previous knowledge of mine, however what is actually

24 happening over there, that's another matter, I can explain that. But that

25 I knew they can be captured? Yes, I did, I knew that, and it's in my

Page 24361

1 municipality; that's what I want to stress.

2 Q. What did you understand the reason for their detention to be?

3 A. I think that proceedings were under -- or rather, that there was

4 fighting in Dobrosevici when the Serbs and the Ahatovici people. And then

5 the Territorial Defence took them prisoner and took them off towards the

6 Rajlovac garrison. I knew nothing about that before, and now, as

7 prisoners -- they were there as prisoners. And then the people followed

8 them, and here they say that the women and children were separated and

9 accommodated as far as was possible, whereas the military-able men were

10 being interrogated by the soldiers, that is to say by the military police.

11 Q. What did you understand the nature of their detention to be? Let

12 me explain that. Where were they being held? What conditions? So on and

13 so forth.

14 A. I do not remember whether I knew -- that I knew where they were

15 put up, where they were detained, because I see here that they were

16 detained in a number of locations. But I did know that they were

17 somewhere in Rajlovac, that was something I did know, yes.

18 Q. Specifically in the passage that you have just read you say, and

19 I'm reading now from today's translation: "Yes, I can, and I told that

20 soldiers nobody must do anything."

21 What did you mean when you said: "And I told that soldiers"?

22 A. Might I say something before I answer? Traditionally, the Muslims

23 and Serbs, in all wars in that region, and especially the Muslims from

24 Ahatovici -- we're talking about the Gacanovici family. Anyway, the

25 Mujkics and others. They were -- had very close relations and ties, and

Page 24362

1 the Serbs and the Muslims got on very well, looking out for each other.

2 My mother comes from that region, and she told -- often told me how during

3 World War II Serb girls -- the Muslims put Muslim clothes, traditional

4 clothes, on Serb girls and hid them away when the Ustashas came by --

5 Ustashas were Muslims, too, there were Muslim Ustashas as well - in order

6 to save them from a terrible fate. And so, for a long time my brother and

7 I felt gratitude towards those people who had saved these girls. And I

8 went to school with the Gacanovici children, primary school and secondary

9 school.

10 So this wasn't an all-out conflict; it was a conflict in which I,

11 from Pale, saw no reason for anybody to be harmed, not a hair on their

12 head should be harmed. And as we're talking about my municipality, my

13 brother informed me that a certain number of Muslims had been detained in

14 Rajlovac - I was in Pale myself - and he told me the names, he mentioned

15 the family names of these people. And then here in this particular

16 conversation I confirm and say that I talked to some of the soldiers or

17 one of the soldiers and said everything I said, that they should not be

18 allowed to do something that is not all right. Not as somebody issuing

19 orders, but because I'd like to draw their attention to the fact that I

20 have a particular interest in this event and I see no reason why anybody

21 should suffer because -- for the mere fact of being a Muslim, if he gave

22 weapons, if he had surrendered weapons. And I said that they had come

23 from this other municipality. The group of Muslims from Bratunac were

24 exchanged via Ilijas and went to Visoko and some of them were taken

25 prisoner in Ahatovici. And I said at the time that if someone gives up

Page 24363

1 weapons you can't kill them. The people were released from Pale, so there

2 shouldn't be any retaliation. Now, why was I afraid of retaliation and

3 revenge? Because in this barracks you had a large number of refugees who

4 had collected there. Their families had been killed. From Popovici

5 [phoen], for example, their houses had been destroyed. So they weren't

6 locals, they weren't the local population who know Ahatovici very well,

7 but people who thought they should take their revenge against someone.

8 That's what I was afraid of, and that's why I said that care and attention

9 should be paid that this doesn't happen. And here I was talking to

10 civilians and people close to me, the civilian authorities, and I wanted

11 to tell them what I thought about the matter. We all thought the same,

12 but they were just cautioning me and saying that these military-able men

13 came under the authority of the army. So the sense of all this, what this

14 means, I was a little rhetorical perhaps, it wouldn't have been something

15 that the Serb people would be prone to do, to do something improper, to

16 kill a blameless man for the mere fact that that person had a weapon in

17 his hands.

18 So that is what I mean when I said this here during this

19 information. Unfortunately some people did lose their lives, others were

20 exchanged, but that's another matter, whereas here I took this position, I

21 took this view, and you can see that this other man Mr. Vladusic says:

22 "Well, I'm very happy that you think the same way as I do." And

23 Mijatovic thought the same way, too, thought the same thing. But it was

24 the Rajlovac garrison that was in charge, the military unit and so on. I

25 don't know who I talked to. Perhaps I talked to a commander or that

Page 24364

1 commander. I don't know what the man was, but it was a man talking, that

2 is to say I was saying that I don't want anything improper to take place

3 in my municipality because that would reflect badly.

4 Q. One other question about this intercept. A few lines further

5 down, same page I think in both languages, you say: "One cannot engage in

6 genocide to achieve anything. I know that it is difficult when someone is

7 killed."

8 Now, to some extent, you have just explained that remark in the

9 long answer that you have given. But what did you mean and why did you

10 choose the word "genocide"?

11 A. Well, I -- at that time I didn't know I would end up in The Hague

12 Tribunal. In our parts of the world when you are trying to get a serious

13 point across, you tend to use the heaviest qualification because whatever

14 lighter words you use, the other person tends to take it lightly. When

15 you say "genocide" -- when I said "genocide," I mean that nobody had a

16 right to take revenge. I wasn't thinking of the legal qualification of

17 genocide; I was talking in more traditional terms, like you don't kill a

18 person who has his hands tied. It's our tradition, you have the right to

19 try them or something else, although maybe not in war, but you don't have

20 the right to kill them. That's how I saw things and that was the opinion

21 of every honourable person.

22 And in one conversation here there is a reference to another

23 event. We attended a funeral of a member of the Moro family who was

24 killed by a sniper while on guard, and that inflamed passions. And I

25 said: Nobody has the right to take revenge. I knew the man personally;

Page 24365

1 he was a wonderful person, this Moro man. He was killed by a sniper while

2 on guard. He was standing on the defence line as a member of the

3 Territorial Defence, and I meant also those people who came from outside

4 because civilians and refugees all tended to flow into the barracks. It

5 was all overcrowded.

6 Q. The next intercept, please, 190 in the left-hand margin. This is

7 a longish conversation between you and your brother. It's P282 and P292

8 KID31460 and P369. It has been --

9 A. Is that the 15th of June?

10 Q. It is, Mr. Krajisnik. It's -- was referred to initially in this

11 Court on the 21st of September, 2004, during the evidence of 623 and was

12 then played to this Court on the 28th of September, the same year, at 6217

13 in the transcript during the evidence of Mr. Kljujic. There are a number

14 of different points in this I want to ask you about, and then I'll perhaps

15 turn to what Mr. Kljujic had to say about it. On page 2 in the English

16 you are asking your brother: "What's going on?"

17 And he says: "I don't know what to tell you. Some shooting

18 started just now."

19 You ask: "Where?"

20 He says: "Cannons around the village."

21 What's he referring to there?

22 A. He says that shooting is targeting Zabrdje. I must have called

23 him up while he was at home. He couldn't have been at the barracks. He

24 could have been only at our home in Zabrdje, and the cannons were firing

25 from the Muslim side by night.

Page 24366

1 Q. If we go to the third page in English, we see -- you say: "He

2 called me from Izetbegovic's office to check but in front."

3 Mirko: "Where did he inform? He asked of you not to shoot at the

4 JAT skyscraper up there. His mother has been wounded and things like

5 that."

6 Momcilo: "Not to shoot at the JAT skyscraper."

7 Mirko: "Yeah." And eventually Mirko says: "Vito called me."

8 It was that part of the evidence 623 commented about, as did

9 Mr. Kljujic. Tell the Chamber what you understand the discussion about

10 the JAT skyscraper to involve.

11 A. We see a reference here to the name Karkin. Fahrija Karkin was a

12 lawyer from Sarajevo. At some point in 1980-something, he was on my

13 defence team in the lawsuit that the Trial Chamber is familiar with. I

14 remained on good terms with him. Just to illustrate, I wanted him to be

15 on my Defence team here in The Hague, and he visited me once. But for

16 some reason he was not able to be part of my team.

17 Apparently, from this conversation, he called my brother from the

18 office of Mr. Izetbegovic. Let me explain why he called. His idea was to

19 get me and Mr. Izetbegovic together in order to revive an initiative so

20 that the two of us should talk. He didn't call back; I don't know why.

21 But when he said to my brother: Tell him not to shoot at the JAT

22 skyscraper.

23 In Sarajevo in the 1960s, the first skyscraper was built in the

24 eastern part of Sarajevo and all the skyscrapers built later were not

25 referred to as skyscrapers. This is the only building called a skyscraper

Page 24367

1 in the old part of town. And since it held the branch of the Yugoslav

2 airlines, JAT, from Belgrade, it was commonly referred to as the JAT

3 skyscraper, otherwise it was a residential building and his mother

4 happened to live there. When he said what he said, he didn't mean that I

5 am the one who was shooting or that I could stop anything. His mother was

6 ill or injured, and he was trying to convey to me, as his friend or

7 acquaintance, that he doesn't want shooting to target that building. He's

8 letting me know about his personal problem, although that has nothing to

9 do with me or any kind of command nor could I have given any orders one

10 way or another, nor was anybody targeting the skyscraper, but it was

11 probably somebody doing something inappropriate.

12 As for this person Vito, it was Vitomir Zepinic calling from

13 Sarajevo. This person has been mentioned here. After the war started, he

14 stayed there. At one point he wanted to get out of Sarajevo and he did

15 get out, travelling in the boot of a passenger car because he couldn't

16 take it any longer in Sarajevo. He lives in Australia today. That was

17 the passage that you have read so far, and those are my comments.

18 Q. Thank you. On the next page there's a discussion about

19 Mr. Kecmanovic's position within the Presidency and Mr. Pelivan's

20 appointment as Prime Minister. I'm, in fact, not going to ask you about

21 that. What I would like to do is turn the page to 5 -- unless you're

22 anxious to comment on that, Mr. Krajisnik. Perhaps you are.

23 A. Yes. Well, perhaps I can give a brief comment, it would be

24 useful. Mr. Pejanovic was frequently in touch with my brother during the

25 war, seeking contacts with me, and that's how we kept in touch, through my

Page 24368

1 brother. He would call up Mirko, Mirko would call up me. And here again

2 he has some information apparently about the Presidency that he could have

3 received from my brother, but also from Zepinic. So we see from here that

4 I'm interested in what's going on in the Muslim part of Sarajevo, and I'm

5 also interested in any indications that could point to a change in policy

6 and the likelihood of a solution.

7 That brings me to the testimony of Mr. Kecmanovic, who testified

8 here. He said that although a consensus had been expected, Pejanovic and

9 Kecmanovic entered the Presidency on the understanding that a consensus

10 would exist on all -- that all decisions of the Presidency would be taken

11 by consensus. And Mr. Kecmanovic wants to replace him now because

12 something was done about the appointment of Mr. Pelivan without consensus.

13 That is another piece of background that can help understand the testimony

14 of Mr. Kecmanovic.

15 Q. So turning the page to page 5 in the English at the bottom, I'm

16 going to read out a passage. Your brother says: "Fuck. This morning I

17 heard the Muslims who were running away from Misoca" -- perhaps you can

18 pronounce that for me -- "killed a full bus of Serbs in Srednji. Misoca

19 was being cleansed. Yeah. So Muslims killed a full bus of Serbs."

20 You say: "How?

21 "Your brother, who were on their way to Pale as refugees, just a

22 little while ago they told me this wasn't the case but in fact they took

23 these prisoners with them. Actually, an older sergeant who does exchanges

24 up there received a phone call from the city. Can you hear me? Momcilo

25 say it again."

Page 24369

1 Mirko: "This guy from the city called me. You know. But what

2 was his name? Alispahic and he said those prisoners had been killed."

3 Momcilo: "What prisoners?

4 Mirko: "They took the prisoners to Pale again."

5 A number of questions arise from this passage. Firstly, and

6 perhaps most importantly of all, Mr. Kljujic was asked about ethnic

7 cleansing from Misoca and a reference to this passage was made, in

8 particular the words: "Misoca was being cleansed." Help the Trial

9 Chamber with that, please.

10 A. First of all, this was said just by the way in this conversation;

11 it was not the subject of our conversation. I am not an expert who would

12 be qualified to explain what cleansing means, but I heard experts talk

13 about it. Cleansing meant mopping-up, driving out the enemy; it never

14 meant cleansing the population. If by coincidence the population left as

15 well, there were such cases, but that's another matter. Whenever

16 mopping-up was mentioned or clearing the field or things like that, that

17 meant driving out the enemy. It doesn't mean that we were cleansing

18 civilians. It doesn't mean, either, that in some cases civilians didn't

19 leave as well, but in this specific case Muslims and Serbs battled in the

20 Ilijas municipality, and when the battle was over mopping-up began to

21 mop-up the pockets of resistance, to drive out the enemy that still

22 remained in the area. That is the explanation I heard from military

23 people on both sides; mopping-up, clearing, means clearing the field from

24 the enemy.

25 Q. Thereafter your brother informs you that the Muslims killed a full

Page 24370

1 bus of Serbs. At that point did you have any knowledge of that attack?

2 A. I did not. But if I may suggest to the esteemed Trial Chamber, it

3 would be good to have a map in front of us to show you where it happened.

4 It happened in no-man's land. Maybe then you would get a different

5 picture. To get there you have to cross a mountain, and this happened in

6 no-man's land. It would be easier to explain with a map. I didn't know -

7 and you can see from this intercept that I didn't know about it - and I

8 was greatly surprised.

9 Q. I'll organise that for about the break, but let's -- a bit of

10 groundwork before we get there. First of all, what attack is he actually

11 referring to? Let's not worry about the location of the attack. Tell us

12 about the attack and what you subsequently learned about it?

13 A. I learnt then from my brother that prisoners from Rajlovac had

14 been taken to Pale by this roundabout route, the other roundabout route

15 via Visojevica after the slaughter in Misoca, which was on the separation

16 line. Because the people on the bus with were thought to be Serbs because

17 they were travelling on a Serb bus. Mr. Alispahic promised to get revenge

18 because he accused people from Rajlovac, although it was a hundred

19 kilometres away. Some prisoners had been exchanged, but this busload of

20 people had not been exchanged. They tried one or two different routes and

21 ended up slaughtered in that spot. We have heard one witness who

22 testified about this.

23 Q. Now, you've just referred to the slaughter in Misoca. What

24 slaughter are you referring to there and who was slaughtered?

25 A. I did not say slaughter in Misoca. I said that there was probably

Page 24371

1 a clash between Muslims and Serbs, and I see from this text that Muslims

2 who had escaped from there - it's very close by - they, according to the

3 first information, thinking that it was a Serb bus, fired at the bus and

4 shot those people dead. That's what I said. And they killed, actually,

5 prisoners who were travelling to be exchanged on that bus. That's what I

6 see from here and that's what I learnt then, at the time.

7 Q. Okay. This needs some clarification, Mr. Krajisnik. First of

8 all, what ethnicity, in fact, were the people in the bus?

9 A. Those same Muslim prisoners who had been detained in Rajlovac;

10 that's one group of them. And another group had previously been

11 exchanged. In other words, Muslims from Ahatovici, a certain number of

12 them was put on a bus to take them to Pale.

13 Q. I think you've explained this but I'm going to ask you again. At

14 this point in time, why did your brother believe that the occupants of the

15 bus were Serbs, when in fact they were Muslims?

16 A. He received reports by radio or something -- you see he says here:

17 "I was informed this morning that this happened." Somebody told him.

18 He's just passing on what he heard from somebody, he's passing it on to

19 me. You see further up where he says: "I heard this morning that a

20 busload of Muslims were killed. Muslims thought they were Serbs." So

21 he's passing on what he heard from somebody else.

22 Q. In the answer you gave earlier you used the word "slaughter."

23 There's clearly some confusion about that. Who did you say had been

24 slaughtered? In what context did you use this word in relation to this

25 intercept?

Page 24372

1 A. I am certain I did not use the word "slaughter." I said: The

2 people on the bus were killed. Maybe that's an error. "Slaughter" is a

3 totally different term in the Serbian language. So Muslim prisoners were

4 killed, prisoners that were being driven by bus towards Pale using the

5 only available route at the time, a roundabout route, going through

6 Vogosca, Ilijas, and so on. Maybe it was a slip of the tongue. Yes, yes,

7 I said "killed numbers, large numbers." I said that. The interpreters

8 have just given me the word I used precisely. I thank them.

9 Q. And the intercept goes on, and if you need the map to answer this

10 question say so and we'll deal with this immediately after the break. The

11 point I left off was your brother says: "They took the prisoners to Pale

12 again."

13 You say: "Yes."

14 And he says: "At Srednji they were intercepted by Muslims who

15 killed all those prisoners. Our two men have been heavily wounded."

16 You said: "They thought those were our people."

17 "They thought those were our people," says your brother.

18 Is that the same instance that he's referring to?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's the same incident. He is just conveying to me

20 the information he received from the Serb side because those two wounded

21 had been brought in. I don't know whether there were two wounded men, but

22 there must have been because otherwise he wouldn't be telling me that. So

23 somebody said this to my brother and he's passing it on to me.

24 Q. And then finally your brother goes on: "Tonight they want to

25 retaliate against all Serbs in the city and in prison."

Page 24373

1 You say: "Yeah."

2 He says: "To kill them all."

3 You say: "Unbelievable."

4 And he says: "Supposedly they will use their cutthroats to attack

5 Rajlovac in groups and all kinds of things like that."

6 Was this some sort of fanciful conversation that you were having

7 with your brother, or was this your genuine belief at the time?

8 A. I'm not quite clear on your question, but I'll do my best to

9 answer because I know what my brother actually said. He was also

10 conveying a conversation -- the conversation of someone talking to

11 Mr. Alispahic, and my brother also had contacts with him later, a

12 telephone conversation, because they knew each other, we were neighbours.

13 And this man said - I assume, I can only assume - that Alispahic said:

14 You killed the Muslims, now we're going to kill all the Serbs in town and

15 we're going to take our revenge. And there's an expression that we say,

16 perhaps coming from the Turkish language, the person that killed with the

17 guillotine, the henchman, and that he would take his revenge from

18 Rajlovac. I don't know whether that actually took place, whether they

19 attacked Rajlovac or not. But Mr. Alispahic, even if he said that,

20 probably had reason to be angry because a large number of people close to

21 him were killed. Now, I'm not justifying him, but especially as the day

22 before he managed to exchange his family at Bozici pump -- petrol station.

23 And these other people stayed on and criticised him for having exchanged

24 his own family, where others were killed.

25 I can't remember which this Alispahic person was, although I know

Page 24374

1 the Alispahic family. So if he did say that, he said that in a state of

2 revolt, indignation. Why? Because on the Muslim side somebody said the

3 Serbs killed them, just as somebody had told my brother: Well, it was the

4 Muslims who killed them. So when you receive information like that to the

5 effect that some people were killed by others and you wanted to have them

6 exchanged, your reaction in wartime is normal, the kind that Mr. Alispahic

7 had, on the other side of course, because we're not dealing with animals,

8 we're dealing with living people and one's neighbours. So I understand

9 that type of rhetoric, so he was probably angry. And I don't believe that

10 they retaliated against the Serbs in Sarajevo in that connection. That

11 was done systematically by gangs that were rampant in 1992.

12 MR. JOSSE: Would that be a convenient moment, Your Honour?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's a convenient moment to have a break until

14 11.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: For a few procedural issues, I'd first like to go

18 into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 24375











11 Pages 24375-24379 redacted. Private session.















Page 24380

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Two more matters, procedural matters. The Chamber

24 will now deal with some exhibits which are ready to be admitted. Exhibit

25 1081 is an English transcript of an interview of Mr. Poplasen. On the 5th

Page 24381

1 of May the Prosecution explained that this document was identical to

2 P1081.1, which is already in evidence. The Defence has requested some

3 time to review these documents and was granted one week. Reference is

4 made to transcript page 23625. No objections have been raised, therefore

5 P1081 is admitted into evidence.

6 On the 11th of May, the Prosecution submitted the following video

7 clips on a CD: P1083, P1088, P1089, P1090, and P1091. These were video

8 clips which were played during the testimony of Mr. Poplasen. The Defence

9 was given one week to raise objections, transcript page 23863. No

10 objections have been raised, and therefore these exhibits are admitted

11 into evidence.

12 Mr. Josse, are you ready to continue the examination?

13 MR. JOSSE: I am -- I'm not going to be very much longer.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, have a look at this map, and perhaps you can tell

17 the Court if this is going to assist in relation to this matter.

18 JUDGE ORIE: It would even assist if the Chamber would have --

19 MR. JOSSE: Well, I've got lots of copies of it, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Or if it doesn't exist.

21 MR. JOSSE: But frankly, all I wanted to do at this stage is find

22 out if it's the right map. If it's not, I'm going to sit down and

23 Mr. Stewart is going to take over and I'm going to try to get the right

24 map during the course of the morning.


Page 24382


2 Q. Does that map do the trick? If it doesn't, say so, and we'll try

3 again?

4 JUDGE ORIE: The trick?

5 MR. JOSSE: In relation to the bus.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik --

7 A. There's something lacking here, part of the map towards Ilijas.

8 MR. JOSSE: I thought that was the case; that's why I asked the

9 question. I'm going to sit down. Mr. Stewart's going to take over. I'm

10 going to try to get a better map.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And even from what I remember it happened close to

12 Vogosca going around, and especially that portion is not missing --

13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, certainly I thought that. I thought

14 that, too.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll return the maps to you.

16 MR. JOSSE: Logistical problems, photocopiers are not working,

17 some real assistance from the Prosecution I must say, however, and I'm

18 grateful for that. We'll try again. Perhaps I could return to this

19 subject after the next break.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

21 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I'm going to drive the Defence bus

23 for a while now.

24 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik --

Page 24383

1 MR. STEWART: And Your Honours.

2 Q. -- What I want us to go to is a series in what I will call a

3 neutral broad descriptive way, a series of Presidency meetings and minutes

4 and then from time to time government minutes, and we're talking about the

5 period May and June 1992. Somebody's microphone --

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've no idea. Somebody's microphone is

7 by a lot of papers. It seems to have -- that seems to have resolved

8 itself.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, could we look at --

10 MR. STEWART: And could Mr. Krajisnik be given this material?

11 It's the minutes of the Presidency of the Serbian republic held on the

12 12th of May, 1992, P64A, binder 22, tab 613. It's also P65, binder 12,

13 tab 144.

14 Your Honour, we've notified - and I hope that's got through all

15 right - a list of a number of items of this nature that we'll be coming to

16 fairly soon. So I hope from a practical point of view that there is a

17 programme of documents to be followed.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Well, I'm not sure

20 Mr. Krajisnik's got the document yet.

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what you're about to be given is minutes of what's

22 described in English of the first constitutive session of the Presidency

23 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina held on the 12th of May,

24 1992. We're just waiting for you to be able to have that in your own

25 language. There seem to be --

Page 24384

1 [Defence counsel confer]

2 MR. STEWART: We can, I think, offer a solution to this. There

3 seems to be a hitch that, unlike the normal position for various practical

4 reasons, this material is not readily available in court.

5 Your Honour, we can't solve the immediate problem on this item

6 unless Mr. Krajisnik has it, but what I can do, Your Honour, is make sure

7 over the next few minutes we can get print-outs of the B/C/S versions of

8 all the items I'm going to be referring to so that we have a batch in

9 court for Mr. Krajisnik. I can certainly do that.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we proceed having it put on the ELMO for the

13 time being?

14 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. We -- it should be

15 very quick, knowing Mr. Sladojevic's work. We'll just get all those items

16 ready for Mr. Krajisnik and as long as it takes to just get them printed

17 out.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I take it you've put away some files of your own.

19 This is a fairly short item anyway, Mr. Krajisnik, so I'll read the short

20 item from the English.

21 "On the 12th of May, 1992, after the Assembly of the Serbian

22 People of Bosnia and Herzegovina elected Dr. Radovan Karadzic,

23 Dr. Biljana Plavsic, and Dr. Nikola Koljevic as members of the Presidency,

24 the Presidency held its first constitutive session. In addition to the

25 members of the Presidency, the session was attended by Momcilo Krajisnik,

Page 24385

1 the president of the Assembly; and Dr. Branko Djeric, the Prime Minister

2 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. One of the items on

3 the agenda was the election of the president of the Presidency of the

4 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Members of the president" --

5 sorry. "Member," singular, "of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic was

6 unanimously elected the president of the Presidency of the Serbian

7 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

8 Mr. Krajisnik, so far as the content of that minute is concerned,

9 one never knows -- there appears to be nothing controversial in any of

10 those items, but are you able to tell the Trial Chamber what -- first of

11 all, can you say who was there at that meeting, which was the first --

12 apparently the first Presidency meeting after that Banja Luka Assembly

13 meeting and on the same day, apparently?

14 A. It was a meeting the same day, but there's something illogical

15 here that was that Mrs. Plavsic wasn't there, didn't attend that meeting,

16 and I can explain how the decision was taken unanimously, if you're

17 interested in hearing.

18 Q. Yes, please do explain.

19 A. I am aware that two members of the Presidency, Mr. Koljevic and

20 Mrs. Plavsic, wanted responsibility for this most important role to be

21 vested in Mr. Karadzic, as long as the constitution was being amended.

22 And before that, they agreed it would be a good idea to choose a

23 three-member Presidency with him as the president. It's probable that

24 Mrs. Plavsic was contacted, either by telephone or when she first returned

25 to Pale. In any case, they had her approval. So this document records

Page 24386

1 that it was a unanimous decision, although Mrs. Plavsic was not at Pale.

2 I don't remember it exactly, but I think that it was announced during a

3 break that Mr. Karadzic would be the president of the Presidency. And

4 even before the session it was a matter that was agreed upon.

5 Q. And who was taking minutes of -- who took minutes of this meeting?

6 A. Honestly, I don't know, but it stands to reason that it was

7 written later because we see the signature of Mrs. Plavsic. So she must

8 have signed later, not on the 12th of May. Some assistant wrote this

9 down. I don't know.

10 Q. Then, Mr. Krajisnik, there were, we can see, between this date,

11 the 12th of May and the next Presidency meeting for which we have a

12 minute, there were then a -- which was the 31st of May, there were several

13 government meetings. First of all, can you say whether you personally

14 attended any sessions or meetings of the government with or without the

15 National Security Council between that meeting and the Assembly session on

16 the 12th of May and the next meeting of the Presidency on the 31st of May?

17 A. The moment the government was established, which was the 12th of

18 May, it started its completely autonomous work, and there were no expanded

19 meetings anymore where non-government members would be included. And I

20 don't remember attending any one of them, apart from a break in the

21 Assembly session in Bijeljina. That was the only occasion when I was

22 present, but I didn't attend a single official meeting of the government

23 because the government worked independently, which stands to reason. We

24 are talking about government sessions, right, cabinet meetings?

25 Q. Yes, exactly, Mr. Krajisnik. What happened from the 12th of May

Page 24387

1 onwards, what happened about the National Security Council?

2 A. I have said this before. Before the 12th of May, we needed some

3 representative group, it was called the National Security Council, with

4 Mr. Karadzic as chairman. The moment the government was appointed, that

5 whole previous thing was forgotten. The name disappeared. It did not

6 occur through some sort of officially declared change; it was simply

7 forgotten. This National Security Council, it was just a name. It was --

8 it never really existed.

9 Q. You see, we have minutes of a joint session of the National

10 Security Council and the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina held on the 14th of May, 1992. That's the way it's described.

12 I've got the ERN number at the moment. That's 01245313. That's described

13 as a joint session of the National Security Council and the government of

14 the Serbian Republic. Do you have any comment on that description of that

15 session?

16 A. By inertia, by force of habit, the person who kept records put

17 this title on these minutes, too. You can look at the previous minutes of

18 all the meetings of the government's National Security Council; they were

19 signed by Mr. Karadzic. However, this one was only signed by Mr. Djeric

20 because it was a cabinet meeting. It was not a session of the government

21 plus council. You can look at the original. I remember that well. It

22 was the last reference to that council. Later on, it was called, simply,

23 cabinet sessions, cabinet meetings. If you have the original you can

24 check.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, would you please guide us to the exhibit

Page 24388

1 number of that 14th of May meeting?

2 MR. STEWART: Well, that's what I'm trying to do, Your Honour.

3 I'm afraid I'm seeking the guidance myself in order to pass on that

4 guidance to the Trial Chamber. So, the answer is: Yes, absolutely, as

5 soon as I'm able to do such a thing I will, but I can't right now,

6 Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


9 Q. The -- Mr. Krajisnik, around this time were you personally

10 involved in talks relating to Sarajevo airport?

11 A. I didn't participate. I wasn't involved in any way in talks about

12 the airport, and you can see precisely from those minutes that the

13 government had an interest and appointed some representatives, but that

14 passed me by completely. I had nothing to do.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour and counsel, the minutes of the joint

17 session of the NSC and the government on 14 May, P583, tab 6.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm afraid I

20 was only able to go as far as P583, so that's very helpful.

21 Q. Were you, Mr. Krajisnik, involved in any continuing talks at that

22 time relating to barracks?

23 A. Well, if that can be called talks, I can say in which way I was

24 involved. I can explain.

25 Q. Well, yes, please do.

Page 24389

1 A. There came from Belgrade General Boskovic, and I happened to be at

2 Pale, whereas both Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Koljevic were absent. Mr. Djeric

3 was at Mount Jahorina. I don't remember whether Mrs. Plavsic was there or

4 not, but she attended one other, different meeting. So he came to us for

5 a meeting, and he explained to us what it was all about. And we started a

6 dialogue.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But that was just between us. He

9 told me about the purpose of his visit and I discussed various subjects

10 with him. Later he went to Lukavica; he probably met with Mladic. He

11 went to the Muslim side, led that entire operation, et cetera.

12 Another conversation regarding the barracks, if we can call it

13 that, was at the time when late General Panic, who was the chief of the

14 General Staff, came for a visit. Again, when he came to us, only

15 Mrs. Plavsic and I were there. There was an outright quarrel between

16 Mrs. Plavsic and General Panic because he wanted an apology from her

17 because she had called the Yugoslav People's Army a communist army instead

18 of the Serb army. And she insisted that she was right in calling the army

19 that. He explained that they intended, indeed, to hand over some weapons

20 in order to save their recruits, their conscripts. And it was difficult

21 to get these weapons from Serbia and to ensure safe passage. We could not

22 help with that. They brought in those weapons - I don't know how many -

23 and they handed them over to the Muslim side just outside the UNPROFOR

24 headquarters. We didn't know about it. One protected witness testified

25 here that we learned about it only later. This protected witness was,

Page 24390

1 himself, a military man and he was in the know.

2 That was the contact I had with the military, but I wasn't

3 involved directly, either with the barracks business or the airport talks.

4 Maybe I voiced my opinion, my personal opinion, the opinion of Momcilo

5 Krajisnik, not the holder of any position.

6 Q. Now, around this time, the middle of May, were you aware of any

7 question of aid being given to the Novo Sarajevo and Hadzici Crisis

8 Staffs?

9 A. If you mean -- do you mean the assistance given by the government

10 to Crisis Staff, aid?

11 Q. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.

12 A. I wasn't aware of that and I wasn't even supposed to know anything

13 about it because I believe the government assisted Crisis Staffs on its

14 own initiative, because the Crisis Staff were in a very difficult

15 situation. Nobody informed me or kept me posted about it because they

16 were not supposed to. It was a normal thing for the government to do, but

17 I didn't know about it.

18 Q. Were you aware of talks with the Serbian government around this

19 time, mid-May or the second half of May, involving a Serbian or Republika

20 Srpska delegation of Mr. Djeric, Mr. Pejic, Mr. Buha, Mr. Milojevic,

21 Mr. Markovic, and Mr. Subotic?

22 A. It's difficult for me to say anything precise about this. It must

23 have been my wish, my intention, to establish contact between the

24 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on one hand,

25 and Serbia on the other hand. That much is certain. At various meetings

Page 24391

1 we expressed the official conclusion that that was necessary. After they

2 left, I don't know whether anything real had been done about it. It's

3 possible that it was decided to establish that contact with the government

4 of Serbia, and I knew about that intention, that plan, to achieve that

5 because we needed that cooperation. The only outside country, the only

6 partner outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that was accessible to us,

7 available to us for economic, cultural, and other contacts was Serbia.

8 That's why we needed that contact. When I say "outside country or foreign

9 country," I mean under quotation marks.

10 Q. But are you saying you do or you don't specifically know about

11 such a delegation meeting representatives of the government of Serbia?

12 A. I know about one meeting that Mr. Ostojic had; however, I don't

13 remember that this meeting was held. But I am inclined to believe that it

14 was held because that intention to establish the contact was real.

15 However, I wasn't aware of the meeting and I don't know what they decided

16 there.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, around this same time, middle of May, second half

18 of May 1992, were you aware of there being any issues as to jurisdiction

19 between the main command of the -- main military command of the Serb

20 republic, on the one hand, and the Ministry of the Interior, on the other?

21 A. I am not sure that I am going to be precise, but I hope that my

22 answer will be satisfactory. From the outset, there was an overlap

23 between jurisdictions and also a certain degree of rivalry between the

24 armed people or the Territorial Defence on one hand and the Ministry of

25 the Interior. Because the MUP was no longer peacetime police, it was

Page 24392

1 militarised force. They were engaging in other activities apart from

2 maintenance of law and order. And it's very possible that, even back at

3 that time, there was a debate about what was supposed to do what. Those

4 two armed forces were not acting in sync. If you remember that conclusion

5 entrusting Mr. Karadzic's president of the National Security Council to

6 coordinate between the police and the Territorial Defence, he couldn't be

7 entrusted with the coordination with the army because the army at the time

8 was the JNA. So there was a problem, not because they didn't get along

9 well, but because they had their differences on the ground, differences

10 that had to be resolved. And there was, again, a degree of rivalry, as I

11 said.

12 Q. Did you become personally involved in the -- that particular

13 issue?

14 A. I personally wasn't, but it is possible some sort of consultative

15 meeting was held where those two sides attended, presenting their

16 respective problems before us as if we were some arbitration body. It's

17 like chairing a meeting where two sides point fingers at each other. It's

18 difficult to resolve such differences or even to say who is supposed to

19 implement some sort of synchronisation. It's possible that I attended

20 some meeting of that kind in that role. I once went on a peace-making

21 mission, so to speak, in Sokolac, a mission of that kind, but I didn't

22 attend this meeting. Mr. Tupajic mentioned this Sokolac thing, so I just

23 remembered it.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I want us now to look at the government

25 minutes of the 23rd of May, 1992, and that is P529, tab 107?

Page 24393

1 MR. STEWART: The ERN there, Your Honour, is 01245320.

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I apologise, we haven't yet got the -- the copy of

3 that in your own language, but I'll indicate to you specifically --

4 well -- the good news --

5 A. Just go on.

6 Q. The good news is that we do, Mr. Krajisnik, behind me coming

7 through to you.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we don't have copies at this point

9 either, so we'd appreciate it from the Defence or, at a minimum, having it

10 placed on the ELMO in --

11 MR. STEWART: Sorry, don't have copies of what, the B/C/S or the

12 English?

13 MR. TIEGER: Either.

14 MR. STEWART: So you would like the English on the ELMO I

15 suppose --


17 MR. STEWART: -- and Mr. Krajisnik to use the B/C/S?

18 MR. TIEGER: It's the only way at this point we're going to be

19 able to follow.

20 MR. STEWART: That seems right to me.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please ...

22 MR. STEWART: All right.

23 Q. You've got it, Mr. Krajisnik, in your own language?

24 A. Yes, yes. I have it in my own language.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... still not being

Page 24394

1 on the ELMO -- oh, I see it's in computer evidence.


3 Q. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, now you've said you were not at these

4 meetings, but I want to ask you about number 3 under the list of numbered

5 items. It says: "It was agreed" -- this is the government. "It was

6 agreed that the possibilities and" --

7 MR. STEWART: The English says "opportunities," Your Honour, but

8 we have some doubts about that.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can you read the first sentence of number 3, just

10 read it out so the interpreters can tell us what it says.

11 A. "It was agreed to look into the possibilities and the

12 opportuneness of a proclamation of a state of war in municipalities

13 affected by the war. Placed in charge: The Ministry of Defence with

14 consultations with the government vice-president."

15 Q. Yes, thank you?

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Vice-premiere.

18 MR. STEWART: The sense of opportuneness is rather different from

19 opportunities. Your Honour, we're near enough -- no disrespect to the

20 interpreters digging it off the cuff, we're near enough happy with that

21 for working purposes.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what -- were you involved at this time in any

23 consideration of a question of declaring a state of war, either in

24 municipalities or, more generally, for the whole of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina?

Page 24395

1 A. Specifically, no; but in general terms, yes. And if I might be

2 allowed to explain.

3 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, that's what I invite you to do. Thank you.

4 A. On the 12th of May in his presentation, Mr. Mladic said that a

5 state of war should be declared as soon as possible. He said that at the

6 Assembly, and this was looking at it from a positive aspect. Later on,

7 since we weren't clear on what the introduction of a state of war or the

8 declaration of a state of war would mean, we discussed this, most probably

9 at some sort of informal meeting, and came to realise that in the

10 soldiers' opinion this would mean the introduction of military rule,

11 administration. And then, as we weren't quite sure, the government took

12 it upon itself to investigate the issue, because we were informed that on

13 the Muslim side preparations were underway for the introduction of a state

14 of war. So that's how I remember it.

15 If I can put it this way, after this realisation - although this

16 wasn't official in any way - but anyway, I was against the introduction of

17 a state of war, I personally, although it wasn't up to me to decide. I

18 was against it because I considered that we should not abolish all the

19 legal organs of government, the Assembly, the government, and so on, and

20 leave it up to the army, which would dominate and have just one body which

21 was supposed to be a sort of collective body which would have a similar

22 term to the Muslim name, the existing Presidency which would be expanded

23 and extended to include a certain number of people, including the

24 president of the Assembly.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, can you explain the reference here in this

Page 24396

1 item 3 to the possibility of declaring a state of war apparently only in

2 specific municipalities affected by the war?

3 A. This was a trick of those who advocated the introduction of a

4 state of war. On the whole of the territory of Republika Srpska certain

5 municipalities weren't engulfed by war in the literal sense, but people

6 did leave the territory, they were mobilised, they went up to the front

7 line. So there was this immediate danger of war all over the territory of

8 the Republika Srpska, although in formal terms the decision would be taken

9 just for the decision of the war-engulfed municipalities. But it was

10 quite clear that an immediate threat of war, which held through for the

11 whole territory, would be transformed into a war situation in the legal

12 sense. So you had to see which municipality was concerned, but that was

13 the intention and I remember it well when it was on the agenda for

14 discussion.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, what was your understanding of how that would work

16 in the legal sense and what the legal effects would be of a declaration of

17 a state of war only in some municipalities but not throughout the whole

18 territory?

19 A. I explained that it had been stated that the regime would change

20 at the level of - how shall I put this? - of the Serb Republic of Bosnia

21 and Herzegovina. There would be no Assembly, no government, and so on and

22 so forth. Now, those who advocated that, who were in favour of that,

23 would override the people who said: Well, there are lots of

24 municipalities where legal organs can still function. So then they said:

25 Well, all right, let's say this would just be the municipalities taken

Page 24397

1 over by war, but that wasn't feasible. It wasn't feasible for you to

2 introduce into one municipality something that you didn't introduce into

3 another when they were neighbouring municipalities, although partial

4 states of war were declared in certain parts, in the western part, for

5 example. But legislation changed and adapt itself to the war.

6 But at this point in time, nobody knew what this meant, the

7 introduction of a state of war, except that we heard that all the organs

8 should be abolished in favour of just having one body, one organ, just

9 like in 1941 when you had the Partisans, for instance, where the army had

10 the final say. There was the court-martial, that was very worrying. To

11 have a situation as we had it during World War II. If somebody did

12 something wrong, five men would get together, guilty, not guilty, summary

13 execution.

14 So this was analogous to what happened during World War II, and

15 that was the sort of model of the state of war as people saw it. So there

16 were many arguments against it because we didn't want to have this

17 division and general melee.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did any declaration of war only in certain

19 municipalities ever happen?

20 A. Yes, in 1995 I think it was, towards the end of the war, towards

21 the end of the conflict, prior to the signing of the Dayton Agreement

22 itself, a large number of municipalities in the western part of the

23 republic was lost. The regular Croatian army helped the Muslim side,

24 assisted the Muslim side and the Croatian side in Bosnia, and almost half

25 the western section was lost. And then the army or, rather, the military

Page 24398

1 leadership exerted strong pressure in favour of introducing a state of

2 war. Then the lawyers got together and they said: Well, it will only

3 apply to that area. That lasted for a very brief period, perhaps just two

4 or three months, but please believe me when I say it had absolutely to

5 effect at all and it wasn't the way we thought in 1990 that it would be by

6 the introduction of court-martials or things like that. But by 1992

7 nothing of that was introduced, nor was a state of war proclaimed.

8 Now, if we forget a piece of information that we heard about here

9 about SAO Birac who said, quite irresponsibly, that a state of war was

10 being introduced, that is an example that has nothing to do with the

11 actual state of affairs. There were, for example, municipalities who

12 would decide for themselves and say: There will be a state of war here,

13 but that had nothing to do with the legal aspect of the matter and what

14 I'm saying here.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, so you indicated Mr. Mladic had contended for a

16 state of war. Did Mr. Mladic remain thereafter consistently in favour of

17 a declaration of a state of war?

18 A. I can't that that was so, that he did. The military leadership,

19 when there were -- when there was failure in a certain area, then people

20 would say: Now, had we introduced a state of war, it would have been

21 better, it would have been easier. No, I can't say that he insisted on

22 this. No. It was a suitable justification for failure and when they

23 would be criticised. So that would be to the best of my recollection how

24 it was.

25 Q. So was Mr. Mladic's position then that he -- he did -- he didn't

Page 24399

1 persist in seeking a declaration of a state of war or that he at any point

2 actually changed his mind and was against that course?

3 A. Mr. Mladic -- or rather, General Mladic, just like the rest of us,

4 although he was a soldier -- well, this was his first war, although he was

5 a soldier. And what he said at that Assembly meeting, and I'm convinced

6 that at the time he spoke as a soldier, as a military man who'd read about

7 it in some textbooks, that is to say if there was a conflict then a state

8 of war should be declared. I'm sure this is something he had read in a

9 textbook, not having experienced it first-handed. So I can't say that he

10 gave up on the idea, but I can't say that he insisted on it either. Quite

11 simply, this idea to introduce a state of war was something that just the

12 military leadership and General Mladic discussed as a chance not taken, as

13 an opportunity not taken, if they were later criticised, if the army was

14 later criticised. So this was a form of justification. Although, to be

15 quite frank, they did not insist on it, they did not insist that a state

16 of war be declared and introduced right up until 1995.

17 Q. What -- what was Dr. Karadzic's attitude towards the proposal from

18 the military of a declaration of a state of war?

19 A. Mr. Karadzic at that time was absolutely opposed to this kind of

20 explanation in favour of a state of war, as I've described it, having a

21 court-martial, abolishing civilian organs and so on. He demanded that

22 civilian organs, the civilian authorities still be functional because that

23 is legal and legitimate. He always said there would be a junta of some

24 kind if that were not the case. But if I might be allowed to explain why

25 the constitutional law was passed. It was because at one point in time he

Page 24400

1 signed this constitutional law and provision and I can explain why he did

2 so because I learnt this later on, and it has to do with this question of

3 an introduction of a state of war.

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to invite you just to leave that on one

5 side for the moment and specific aspects of war --

6 A. That was my intention, but, yes, fine, I understand your point.

7 Q. Now, such discussions as there were then between the -- the --

8 Mr. Mladic and his military colleagues and the civilian leadership, in

9 what sort of meeting did those discussions take place?

10 A. Well, I think that very rarely Mr. Mladic would come by very

11 rarely without previously giving notice, and then we would sit down and

12 talk about a problem. I don't ever remember Mr. Karadzic calling a

13 meeting at that time and then inviting us to consult each other over a

14 given issue, because the Main Staff was from Pale going to Han Pijesak at

15 a distance of some 40 to 50 kilometres. And we only had telephone

16 communications. So they might have had a telephone communication, a

17 military communications line, or perhaps they contacted each other

18 personally, but yes, there were these ad hoc meetings that he happened to

19 be there and then we discussed issues of this kind.

20 Q. You see, we have -- we have a minute of the -- that we looked at a

21 little while ago, the first constitutive session of the Presidency of the

22 Serbian Republic on the 12th of May, and the next minute we have - we

23 haven't got there yet - is the 31st of May, which is described as the 2nd

24 Session. In between those two minuted meetings, so that's 19 days, can

25 you say how frequently the three members of the Presidency, Dr. Karadzic,

Page 24401

1 Professor Koljevic, and Professor Plavsic were meeting?

2 A. I'm trying to be as precise as possible, and probably the right

3 answer would be for me to say I don't know. But what I can tell you is

4 this: That they had various personal contacts. I don't think they had

5 any official meeting or formal Presidency meeting. They would run into

6 each other, then they would sit down, consult each other, and then each go

7 their own way, about their own business. They were preoccupied and taken

8 up with visits by the international representatives, representatives of

9 humanitarian organisations, UNPROFOR. They were inundated with all this,

10 contacts with journalists and others. So their day was very full, but

11 nonetheless they found the time to talk to each other. So I do believe we

12 would sit down for a cup of coffee and discuss certain matters, but I'm

13 not quite sure. Perhaps while we were on the way to somewhere or someone

14 was travelling?

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, on the 29th of May, 1992, there was a government

16 meeting?

17 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, that's P65, tab 140. It's in other

18 places as well. It's also in P64A and P583. But specifically P65, tab

19 140, and the ERN is 01245327.

20 Q. And I think we have a copy of that in your own language for you,

21 Mr. Krajisnik. And -- but I can tell you what the point is,

22 Mr. Krajisnik, while we're waiting for that. It -- it was concluded or

23 decided that Mr. Milan Trbojevic -- and this is on page 3 of the English

24 version of that. "Milan Trbojevic and Velibor Ostojic were responsible

25 for visits to the municipalities of Vogosca and Ilijas while Nedeljko

Page 24402

1 Lajic and Ljubomir Zupovic were responsible for the visits to the

2 municipalities of Stari Grad and Centar."

3 It continues: "In the course of these visits they should talk to

4 the Crisis Staffs, take note of the situation" --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger is on his feet.

6 MR. TIEGER: Same issue with respect to any government sessions

7 referred to during this session of -- of today's proceeding. We'll try to

8 retrieve everything at the break, but we weren't notified before.

9 MR. STEWART: Yes, I'm sorry you weren't notified before. I

10 certainly thought you had been, but -- apologies to that, Your Honour.

11 MR. TIEGER: Not a problem, just wanted to let you know about the

12 logistical issue.

13 MR. STEWART: Cooperation is appreciated. Thank you.

14 Q. Yes, I hadn't quite finished.

15 "Take note of the situation. By all means visit the front, make

16 contact with the soldiers, and prepare a report about it for the

17 government."

18 Mr. Krajisnik, were --

19 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Stewart, excuse me. For the benefit of the

20 usher, it's page 3.

21 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, were you aware of such visits being made, as there

23 noted?

24 A. No, I was not aware of that. This is something that the

25 government did independently. I don't know whether they were there or

Page 24403

1 not, but if I might be of assistance, the government did what it could.

2 And charted its line of work. It had difficulties, and probably this was

3 one of the tasks, to visit the municipalities around Sarajevo, to receive

4 information from the Crisis Staffs as to what the situation was like, and

5 of course a priority was to see the front line, to see what the situation

6 was like there. Because of course everybody was most interested in that,

7 in Republika Srpska generally and, of course, particularly the government

8 to know what the situation was like up at the front, whether the other

9 side could break through the front and things like that. So these were

10 all topics that were normal, topical, logical. Here we see the government

11 trying to find its own way of work, and I can see that on the basis of

12 certain things and decisions made here in addition to the ones you've

13 already quoted.

14 Q. Did you, Mr. Krajisnik, at this time or anywhere around this time,

15 yourself, engage in any such visit to any municipality where you talked to

16 Crisis Staffs, took note of the situation?

17 A. It wasn't within my purview, remit. If I was somewhere - and I

18 don't believe that I was - but that could only have been in my own

19 municipality, in my own home. I might have been there, or if someone were

20 to invite me to go somewhere. But to say that I toured the terrain to

21 establish what the situation was like in the sense it is put here, I never

22 did that. I never had that function, nor did I do anything like that

23 because I had other work to attend to, other preoccupations, and not

24 enough time for it.

25 Q. At this time - and to be specific let's take it to the end of May

Page 24404

1 1992, since the war began - had you, leaving aside Sarajevo, but had you

2 visited the front anywhere?

3 A. No, never. I tend to be rather fearful. I was in Pale. I had my

4 own personal problems, and I was occupied with my own work. There was an

5 Assembly session that was held. There was a lot of work to do, a lot to

6 get through, decisions to implement, and things like that.

7 Q. Had you visited the front anywhere within the Sarajevo region?

8 A. No, except if I happened to pass by on my way home, but that was

9 deep into the territory, taking the route that the prisoners took. We

10 didn't see that, but I might have passed within -- or rather, I had to

11 travel a distance of 100 kilometres to arrive home, but the front line

12 wasn't there so I couldn't see the front on my way home. And that came

13 under the competency and authority of others.

14 Q. Now, you referred just a moment ago to being occupied with your

15 own work. Well, the position was this, Mr. Krajisnik, wasn't it -- well,

16 first of all it's not alleged before the end of May you were a member of

17 the Presidency. It's common ground that there were only three members of

18 the Presidency at this point. You've given evidence about what happened

19 to the National Security Council or didn't happen at this point in May.

20 You've confirmed - and we see on all the documents - you were not a member

21 of the government. Were you at this time in May a member of any formal

22 group or body within the structure of the Serb Republic or the SDS that

23 was actually meeting at this time?

24 A. As was stated here, the SDS froze its work but not pursuant to a

25 decision but in actual fact. It froze its functioning or work. And there

Page 24405

1 was no meeting of the Main Board of the SDS, that is to say I didn't take

2 part in any of that kind of business. Now, what did I do? What came

3 within my competency? I had two basic duties and a third auxiliary duty.

4 Of course that third duty did not take up any less of my time. The first

5 was to deal with Assembly-related matters because the Assembly had become,

6 in a way, a public forum for the ventilation of problems. So it was a

7 sort of forum, although I don't like the word. But you had to prepare

8 material for the meeting and then discussions and debates would be held on

9 them.

10 Up until this date, that is to say from the 12th of May to the

11 29th of May or, rather, until the end of July, the meeting -- Assembly was

12 not in session. It didn't hold any meetings. Why? I've already

13 explained this. First of all, the corridor was cut across, and from --

14 you couldn't get from the west to the east; and second, because there were

15 a lot of activities over this other business, that is to say to prepare,

16 analyse, and hold meetings in order to continue the conference on

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I think we had two or three meetings inclusive

18 with July, and I remember that in July we went to London twice. I think

19 we went twice; we certainly went once to attend the London Conference.

20 And before that there were many meetings as well, consultations on the

21 ground in order to become better acquainted with the terrain, a better

22 acquaintance of the maps and so on. And then later on there was a third,

23 auxiliary duty, if I can put it that way, and I was in Pale mostly, I

24 spent most of my time in Pale for my own problems, but other people

25 including Mr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, and Mr. Djeric, who had already left

Page 24406

1 to go to Jahorina, I was sort of somebody on duty, a duty officer. When

2 an international representative happened to stop by unannounced, then

3 somebody would receive them, and that person would be me, and talk to

4 them. So I cannot describe all my activities. All I know is that I

5 worked from morning till dusk, from early morning till late at night.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm looking at the clock.

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. Your Honour, would it be

8 helpful if I would just -- it would take 30 seconds to reel off the dates

9 of the government and Presidency sessions that I'm going to refer to over

10 the foreseeable future. Your Honour, so far as the government sessions

11 are concerned, I am proposing to look at the 31st May, 1st June, 7th June,

12 15th and 16th June, 19th June -- well, 26th and 30th possibly, so I'll add

13 them for completeness. And as far as the Presidency -- we won't be

14 dwelling for very long on these items, Your Honour. So far as the

15 Presidency minutes are concerned, 31st May, 8th, 9th, 10th, 13th, 16th,

16 17th, 25th, and 27th of June. So not 21st and 24th of June, certainly as

17 things stand. Your Honour, we're going to do our best to sort out all

18 this paper. I should say for my team, Your Honour, they are hampered by

19 the fact that there hasn't been a working photocopier in our part of the

20 building all morning, Your Honour, which is torture for them, but we do do

21 our best.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

23 At the same time, Mr. Stewart, I would like to say a few words and

24 I'm also addressing Mr. Krajisnik. Of course, the Chamber sees at what

25 speed we are progressing at this moment. I don't know where you would put

Page 24407

1 the emphasis. At the same time, the Chamber notices where you ask, for

2 example, Mr. Krajisnik where he was when -- take your last question as an

3 example about whether he -- he was at that time, in May, a member of any

4 formal group or body in the structure of the Serb Republic that was

5 actually meeting at this time, which is a relatively short question, then

6 we get a minutes'-long explanation, not only on what meetings were not

7 held anymore but also why, and in quite some detail. It consumes major

8 portions of time. Certainly it's not direct in the question, but if

9 you -- if you let it go this way and if you think it's all very important

10 to hear all these details of why and if you think it important also to

11 know that some matters that have explained already quite a couple of times

12 to us, I mean Assembly meetings with the corridor is an issue well-known

13 to us, then of course we will let you go without any problem. But of

14 course this Chamber would like to hear as much evidence as could probably

15 be fit in into the time allotted to the Defence. And as I said before,

16 we'll come back to that, if not today, then not later than Monday. We'll

17 adjourn to --

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I say on that single last point.


20 MR. STEWART: I note Your Honour's comments and I would take them

21 on birthday and consider them at all times. As far as the timing is

22 concerned, I'm sure Your Honours can see that knowing how much time

23 Your Honours are suggesting we have had and have left before the weekend

24 is going to be of tremendously greater value than not knowing until after

25 the weekend, if there is any possibility.

Page 24408

1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll give it a try whether we can resolve the matter

2 today.

3 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours.

9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like us to look now, please, at the minutes of

10 the -- what was described as minutes of the session of the Presidency of

11 the Serbian Republic of the 31st of May, 1992. And that's P64A, binder

12 25, tab 693, or paper 65, binder 12, tab 142, ERN 00837976. And -- it's

13 all right. Mr. Krajisnik's got it. We've got some spares of the B/C/S

14 there.

15 Mr. Krajisnik, do you see this pretty short minute? 2nd Session

16 of the Presidency of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was held.

17 It was attended by members of the Presidency, Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Plavsic,

18 and Dr. Koljevic, and the president of the Assembly of the Serbian People

19 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Momcilo Krajisnik, chaired by Dr. Karadzic.

20 "Current issues regarding the situation in Serbian Republic of

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina were discussed.

22 "After the discussion, the Presidency adopted the decision on the

23 establishment of War Presidencies in municipalities during war or an

24 imminent threat of war."

25 Mr. Krajisnik, do you -- do you remember whether there was such a

Page 24409

1 meeting with just those people who were named present?

2 A. Yes, they were present, but there were other people, too, although

3 they had not been named here. I cannot remember all of them, but we never

4 met just the four of us -- I mean, at least not at this session.

5 Q. And was Mr. Djeric, he's not recorded as being at this meeting.

6 Is that correct, that he was not at this meeting?

7 A. Mr. Djeric wasn't there, but somebody from the government was

8 probably there to give the rationale for this decision that we were

9 discussing.

10 Q. And the decision you're talking about, decision on establishment

11 of War Presidencies --

12 MR. STEWART: I wonder if Mr. Krajisnik could have P529, binder 3,

13 tab 110. The ERN is -- if I've got the right number 00509977.

14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, that's -- if you could cast your eye over that,

15 that's -- it's dated at the end 31st of May, 1992. On the face of it:

16 Published in the Official Gazette on the 8th of June, 1992, decision on

17 the formation of War Presidencies in municipalities in times of war or the

18 immediate threat of war, that's the decision, isn't it, Mr. Krajisnik?

19 A. Yes, that's the decision.

20 Q. Do you have any comment on it being headed "decision on the

21 formation of War Presidencies in municipalities in times of war or the

22 immediate threat of war"?

23 A. At this consultative meeting we only discussed the probably for

24 introducing Presidencies in municipalities. It's for how it was worded

25 later, I believe expert services of the government dealt with that later.

Page 24410

1 This decision wasn't taken at this meeting; we just deliberated on the

2 issue.

3 Q. So where it says in the minute of the meeting: "The Presidency

4 adopted the decision on the establishment of War Presidencies," is it

5 correct to say the Presidency did adopt the decision?

6 A. Well, I suppose that at this 2nd Session they expressed their

7 views and adopted the decision. I cannot say so many years later because

8 Mr. Karadzic, after all, signed this decision. I mean, that meeting of

9 the 31st of May which is named the 2nd Session. I was present as a guest.

10 Q. Did you understand -- who did you understand to constitute the

11 Presidency at this meeting -- well, I'll stop the question there. Who did

12 you understand to constitute the Presidency at this meeting?

13 A. Everybody in the republic, and certainly I understood that the

14 three members of the Presidency were Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Koljevic, and Mrs.

15 Plavsic, and that was the same Presidency that met on the 31st of May.

16 Q. Could you be given another document, Mr. Krajisnik, which is P64A,

17 binder 23, tab 636, but keep the one, please, that you've got also for the

18 moment?

19 MR. STEWART: And this -- Your Honour, this is the Official

20 Gazette of the Serb People. It's 00448095.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, this is apparently an entry in the Official

22 Gazette Monday, 1st June, 1992; however, at the end of the document it

23 purports to be signed by Mr. Karadzic as president of the Presidency of

24 the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and dated the 2nd of June,

25 1992. First of all, are you able to cast any light on the fact that it

Page 24411

1 appears to have been -- on its face, to have been published in the

2 Official Gazette the day before it was actually proclaimed or -- I beg

3 your pardon, perhaps I should avoid the word "proclaimed." The date

4 corresponding with the signature, the 2nd of June?

5 A. I'm not sure whether it was on the 29th or the 31st of May, but I

6 think it was the 31st that the government passed two enactments. One was

7 the draft law amending the constitutional law about the implementation of

8 the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the other was the decision

9 to introduce Presidency -- Presidencies in municipalities in case of war.

10 The session of the government of the 31st of May passed only the

11 decision about Presidencies in municipalities, not this constitutional

12 law. This draft law was brought to Mr. Karadzic and the Presidency

13 directly by somebody from the government. It was signed and sent directly

14 to be published. That was the procedure. I didn't know about this law,

15 and there was no session of the Presidency on the 1st of June. You can

16 verify this. It was just stated that it had been discussed at a session.

17 It must be some sort of mistake. It must have been promulgated on the 1st

18 and enacted on the 2nd. There was no session of the Presidency of the 1st

19 of June; instead, Mr. Karadzic just signed the enactment brought to him by

20 the government. I didn't even know about that enactment. I learnt about

21 it later at an Assembly session that was submitted in the meantime by the

22 Presidency. I didn't even know if there was a session or not. I learned

23 only later that there had been no session.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, hold on to the documents you've got, please,

25 but could you be given the minutes of the government meeting of the 31st

Page 24412

1 of May, 1992. That's P583, tab 13. It's also in P65, if I -- I don't

2 have the detailed reference there. So P583, tab 13, and the ERN is

3 01245335.

4 A. Yes, I have it here before yes, it is the 17th Session of the

5 cabinet held on the 31st of May.

6 Q. Yes?

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, one thing we did note is there seems

8 to be a discrepancy between the English numbering and the numbering in the

9 original that -- I think the original goes 11B2, instead of number three,

10 law on national defence in the original, it's number 2, and so on.

11 Probably nothing will turn on it, Your Honour, but just to note there in

12 case anyone is ever looking at any time there is that discrepancy.

13 Q. Then the -- Mr. Krajisnik, after the listings of the items 1 to

14 16, and so on, it carries on with a heading, "1. The proposal of the law

15 on amendments on constitutional law on application of constitution of

16 Serbian Republic of BiH has been accepted in its proposed form."

17 And then the next paragraph: "The proposal of the decisions to

18 form War Presidencies in municipalities during the immediate threat of war

19 or the state of war has been approved provide that," and so on. And I

20 won't go into all the detail.

21 Mr. Krajisnik, so far as you're aware, those are the very same

22 items that we looked at a moment ago, those other two items, decision of

23 formation of War Presidencies and the amendment to constitutional law.

24 That's correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24413

1 Q. Now, if we look at the item -- the law -- the one with that --

2 those dates, the 1st of June at the top and 2nd of June at the bottom. So

3 let's look back at that one, the law on amending the constitutional law

4 for implementing the constitution. Article 1, and the constitutional law

5 for implementing the constitution of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina," and then the Official Gazette references are given, "is

7 amended in article 5 with a new para-3 and reads: 'During a state of war

8 the Presidency is expanded with the following members, the President of

9 the National Assembly and the Prime Minister of the Government of the Serb

10 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.'"

11 And then there's a renumbering of further paragraphs and then a

12 further paragraph is added or 6 and 7 are added.

13 "'During a state of war the Presidency may decide to establish

14 War Presidencies in the municipalities.'"

15 Mr. Krajisnik, are you able to offer any explanation as to how

16 there came to be, at the very beginning of June, a decision on the

17 formation of War Presidencies when it was apparently only permitted during

18 a state of war and there had not been a state of war declared?

19 A. All this was done between the Presidency and the government, or

20 maybe just one member of the Presidency and I'll mention another enactment

21 that was adopted in this connection. Because if you remember, perhaps an

22 hour ago we saw that the government assumed the task to investigate the

23 necessity to introduce the state of war, and it adopted this enactment as

24 a contingency in case a state of war is introduced, that they have

25 something to fall back on. But you see from this that the constitutional

Page 24414

1 law that existed was an amendment supplement to the constitution that --

2 to the effect that two members of the Presidency should perform the

3 functions of president. And this is an amendment that says: During a

4 state of war, the Presidency can be expanded. And it says: "During a

5 state of war the Presidency may form these Presidencies across

6 municipalities." And this decision that was submitted to the Presidency

7 on the 31st states that Presidencies shall be formed, both in case of the

8 immediate threat of war and in a state of war. That's a decision that has

9 no foundation in this amendment of the constitutional law. It was

10 completely wrong in the way it was formulated. This expansion of the

11 Presidency was not something that was supposed to be done in case of an

12 immediate threat of war, only the state of war. But doing this, they must

13 have been assuming, they must have been thinking, that they were going to

14 introduce the state of war; however, that didn't occur and those

15 Presidencies were abolished very soon.

16 Q. Did -- when you were attending this meeting on the 31st of May,

17 1992, the session of the Presidency, did anybody give you any indication

18 that you had become a member of the Presidency?

19 A. No, that was impossible. Nobody could have done that nor would I

20 have ever accepted that without being notified at an official Assembly

21 session or through the Official Gazette. I'll give you an example from

22 the Assembly session of the 25th or the 27th of July, 1992, where it was

23 declared, expressly, who was a member of the Presidency. So I was not a

24 member of the Presidency nor did I know that I was a member of the

25 Presidency, nor did anyone, including Mr. Djeric, ever imply that I was a

Page 24415

1 member of the Presidency. You see that last meeting when Mr. Djeric says

2 that he wants to consult with the Presidency and the president of the

3 Assembly? It cannot be the case that everybody except me knew that I was

4 a member of the Presidency.

5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like you to be given, please, the minutes of

6 the government meeting of the 1st of June, 1992, which is P64A, tab 676,

7 ERN 01245339. Do you have that, Mr. Krajisnik?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. It is described as 18th Session and it says -- after the five

10 numbered items then it says: "The minutes of the government meeting held

11 on the 31st of May, 1992, has been accepted without any objections."

12 And then: "1. The government president," and that's Mr.

13 Djeric," has informed government members about the talks that took place

14 at the joint meeting of Serbian Republic of BiH Presidency, Serbian

15 Republic of BiH National Assembly chairman, Serbian Republic government

16 president," Mr. Djeric again, "and Serbian Republic of BiH army Main Staff

17 commander." That, by this time, was Mr. Mladic, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When -- can you say when had that joint meeting taken place?

20 A. I have said that Mr. Mladic was wont to visit without prior

21 notice, very suddenly, and this was one of the consultative meetings that

22 was held without any record kept, and that's what Mr. Djeric refers to.

23 And it's probably at one of those meetings that Mr. Djeric presented

24 certain things, we discussed it, and subsequently he notifies all that to

25 the government. And it's very likely that between the time he said that

Page 24416

1 he needed to meet -- it's very likely that this is -- this happened

2 sometime between the point he said he needed to consult with the

3 Presidency and the speaker of the National Assembly and the 1st of June.

4 Q. Well, the -- we know, Mr. Krajisnik, there were two government

5 meetings, 31st of May, and 1st of June, so on, on successive days.

6 Mr. Djeric had not reported this item at the meeting the day before; he

7 was reporting it here on the 1st of June. Can you say whether there was

8 such a meeting after the Presidency session which had been held on the

9 31st of May at which you were present?

10 A. As far as I was able to say, Mr. Djeric didn't attend the

11 Presidency meeting on the 31st. He wasn't at the Presidency meeting.

12 Possibly in the intervening period -- well, perhaps on the 31st he might

13 have attended a government meeting, I assume. You could have two meetings

14 on the same day, for instance, precisely because the meeting wasn't

15 scheduled. Mladic was there, Mr. Djeric came by or the other way around,

16 and that's how it came about because he needed to meet with the Presidency

17 members and president of the Assembly, and Mr. Mladic happened to be there

18 as well. He couldn't have been invited, but he probably just happened to

19 be there or was passing by.

20 Q. [Microphone not activated]

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, could you be given the minutes of the 3rd Session

24 of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic held on the 8th of June, 1992.

25 That's P64A, bundle 25, tab 685 or P65, bundle 12, tab 152, ERN 00837975.

Page 24417

1 The session commenced at 0900 hours. Present: Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Plavsic,

2 Dr. Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and Dr. Djeric. A report on the

3 situation in areas and adoption -- item 1: "The Presidency was briefed on

4 the situation at the front and made a plan of daily activities."

5 Mr. Krajisnik, who briefed the Presidency on the situation at the

6 front?

7 A. You were able to see here at one of the government meetings that

8 we looked at that there was a piece of information on the ground. We can

9 go back and have a look at that, and it could only have been Mr. Djeric

10 informing or, perhaps, a member of the government might have been there

11 who wasn't recorded here. He -- they might have informed about what

12 happened or was going on, on the ground. Or one more caveat,

13 Mr. Karadzic, for instance, might have contacted Mr. Mladic and simply

14 conveyed to him what he knew. I cannot say exactly which of these

15 provided the information, but that was mostly how information was

16 disseminated from the battle-ground, which was the whole of Republika

17 Srpska after all.

18 Q. Yes. In your previous answer, Mr. Krajisnik, can we take it that

19 you meant to say that Mr. Mladic might have conveyed to Mr. Karadzic what

20 he knew, rather than the other way around?

21 A. No, no. What I wanted to say is this: It was perhaps

22 Mr. Karadzic who informed -- gave out the information, having received

23 information from Mr. Mladic and possibly from this joint there might have

24 been a piece of information. When Mladic happened to be there, then

25 somebody might have reproduced it with the inclusion of someone in the

Page 24418

1 government. Quite simply, the information could have come from someone in

2 the Main Staff or someone in the government, although these would not have

3 been complete.

4 Q. Item 1 records that: The Presidency, having been briefed on the

5 situation, agreed on a plan of daily activities.

6 Was agreement reached at this or any other similar meetings around

7 this time by any taking of a vote?

8 A. The Presidency never voted by raising one's hands, the ayes and

9 the nays. Mr. Karadzic led the sessions and always tried to have a

10 consensus. I have to be frank and say I never actually considered these

11 meetings to be Presidency sessions. There were the three of them, and I

12 considered that they held consultations and would do their duties. But

13 since it was called this, it was termed that way, that means that after

14 the consultations everyone went about their duties, to implement their

15 assignments, and they would divide up the work. One of them would be in

16 charge of contacts with international representatives, another with

17 humanitarian organisations, and so on and so forth. They had different

18 fields, although as a body they made decisions together. But I never

19 attended a meeting where there would be a voting, all those in favour and

20 all those against, that kind of thing. They went on and within discussing

21 a problem until a consensus had been reached.

22 Q. Did -- did Mr. Djeric ever say anything to you or in your presence

23 which indicated that he regarded himself as a member of an expanded

24 Presidency?

25 A. Absolutely not. Mr. Djeric liked to have things very -- strictly

Page 24419

1 legal, and he said: I want to know what the government does and what the

2 president -- what the job of the Presidency is. And he always insisted

3 that the Presidency record the meetings with minutes, have their rules of

4 procedure, just as I did. But he went even further in doing that. So

5 absolutely, no, he did his job to the best of his ability. He probably

6 had subjective and objective difficulties, people presented problems, and

7 so on.

8 Q. Could you --

9 MR. STEWART: Could Mr. Krajisnik be given, please, the minutes of

10 the fourth meeting. That's -- that's the 9th of June. It's P64A, bundle

11 25, tab 723, or P65, bundle 12, tab 155, ERN 00837974.

12 Q. Do you see, Mr. Krajisnik, this is described as minutes of the

13 fourth expanded meeting of the War Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you see that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, considering the minutes of the

17 previous meeting as well, the one we looked at a moment ago, the 8th of

18 June, did you -- did you receive these minutes of these meetings at the

19 time?

20 A. Well, we needed something to remind us, an aide-memoire, so that

21 we knew what we had studied after holding consultations of that kind. And

22 I'm quite certain that we didn't have this type of minutes, in this form,

23 set out in this form. I would jot down something, take a note of

24 something that was in -- that I was interested in, but I never saw the

25 minutes set out in this form before I came to The Hague.

Page 24420

1 Q. Now, this -- there are two differences in that heading to this

2 document, as compared with the previous document and, in fact, the one

3 before as well. It's described as the 4th expanded meeting of the War

4 Presidency, so both the word "expanded" and the word "war" are there when

5 they were not in the heading of the minutes of the previous meeting.

6 Mr. Krajisnik, can you cast any light on either or both of those

7 differences?

8 A. Here we can see -- it says: From the 4th expanded meeting. An

9 expanded meeting is considered a meeting when a body whose members are

10 legally elected and when that body -- when you have outside -- people from

11 outside attending, outside collaborators, and here it was Mr. Mladic and

12 Mr. Tolimir, who very rarely attended consultations of this kind. So

13 probably the person who wrote this down thought that the best term to be

14 used was "expanded meeting," because they considered myself and Mr. Djeric

15 to be locals, that is to say people who were seen very often.

16 Now, the concept of a War Presidency, that term is used there

17 because the person who kept these minutes in one way or another wrote down

18 this attribute of War Presidency because soldiers - if I can put it that

19 way - attended, military men, so that we can see that in all the minutes

20 when meetings were being held in a state of imminent war, that was not

21 there. But this is a consultative meeting with the army. So it should

22 not, in my view, be a Presidency meeting, but I can see that that is what

23 it says here.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, my learned co-counsel tells me he

25 needs a couple of minutes to deal with a practical matter arising out of

Page 24421

1 the session earlier.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- there's not much time left, so then we would

3 conclude for the day just --

4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour --

5 MR. STEWART: Yes, he needs a couple of minutes now, Your Honour,

6 in court.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be in open session?

8 MR. STEWART: Oh, yes, Your Honour, I understand there's no

9 problem of that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: And the Prosecution will also need a minute or two.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have another hearing at quarter past 2.00, so

13 I'm defending my afternoon time.

14 MR. JOSSE: Could I quickly hand this map to Your Honour.


16 MR. JOSSE: What I want to do is give a copy of this map to

17 Mr. Krajisnik to take away with him for the weekend and invite him to mark

18 it up with a black pen the route of the bus so that he can explain it on

19 Monday and save time all around.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, if he's aware of the route the bus

21 took.

22 MR. JOSSE: If he could mark the map up in the way he wanted to

23 earlier in relation to the intercept we dealt with. I've got a copy for

24 the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No problem.

Page 24422

1 Mr. Krajisnik, you've understood what homework you've got for the

2 weekend?

3 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour, that's all I --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's even less than two minutes.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness -- the accused repeat what he

6 said.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We need another portion here, more

8 of the map, more of the map.

9 MR. JOSSE: Well, make do with that as best you can, please.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever roads are on the map, please fill them, and

11 then we'll find an itinerary for the missing part. It might not be of

12 greatest importance to fill in the whole of the route.

13 Mr. Harmon.

14 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour, I was going to address the issue of

15 the pending cross-examination. We have been in direct examination for 18

16 days. We will be continuing into next week. As we raised earlier with

17 the Court, the 65 ter summary was factually deficient, it was incomplete,

18 and counsel acknowledged that. We have -- it was topical, essentially, in

19 terms of what topics would be addressed.

20 We have been preparing diligently in the course of this exercise

21 to prepare for cross-examination. The Defence had considerable time prior

22 to the direct examination where they could prepare without the -- the

23 distractions of court and the imminence of court. We are in a position

24 when we start our cross-examination we have concluded that we also will

25 need some time, a break, between the end of the direct examination and the

Page 24423

1 cross-examination. We would like at this point to inform the Court that

2 by our best calculation it would be three regularly scheduled court days

3 which we would need to organise the exhibits, organise ourselves to

4 prepare properly for that cross-examination. So that is our request.

5 Thank you, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. It's another scheduling issue.

7 When the Defence used its time to prepare, they were put in a position

8 where they could choose -- I remember the extra days. We said to the

9 Defence: Do you want to use those further days for further time to

10 present the evidence or for further preparation? So they had to make a

11 choice at the time. How do I have to understand your request to get

12 additional days for preparation which would be deducted from the time of

13 cross or would you want to have them in addition to the time?

14 MR. HARMON: Well, we were thinking in addition to the time,

15 Your Honour, frankly --

16 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't surprise me that that's the answer,

17 Mr. Harmon. We'll consider the matter and of course also together with

18 the still-pending issue, and we'll see whether we could give you an

19 answer. I can't promise that to you. These last weeks, usually the

20 Judges have approximately three meetings during each break, sometimes two,

21 which gives us -- allows us for a cup of coffee now and then. I have my

22 next Status Conference at quarter past 2.00, so therefore time is very

23 limited, and I have not asked for additional time to prepare for that.

24 But we'll see what we can do and to what extent we can give you the

25 decisions you are asking us to give to you.

Page 24424

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I take 15 seconds?


3 MR. STEWART: I know counsel have a meeting at 2.15 among

4 themselves as well. Your Honours, we would have, in the usual way, an

5 opportunity, we trust, of making submissions in relation to what are now

6 the connected issues of the question of time for in chief and Mr. Harmon's

7 application made a moment ago.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll also consider how to deal with this

9 matter. No courtroom has been reserved for this afternoon. Of course a

10 Status Conference takes time to end as well. It might be that further

11 communication might be needed later this afternoon on the matter because

12 it really becomes urgent. Therefore, the parties should keep themselves

13 available for further communication this afternoon, if need be. If so,

14 you'll be contacted by the -- I should say by the Legal Officer, since the

15 Senior Legal Officer is not there.

16 MR. STEWART: We shall be at Your Honour's disposal.


18 We adjourn until next Monday.

19 Mr. Registrar, would it be -- in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00,

20 I think it's the same courtroom.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

23 May, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.