Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24425

1 Monday, 22 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [Mr. Krajisnik entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Krajisnik, the same as every day, you're reminded that you're

11 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

12 your testimony. And Mr. Stewart will now continue the examination.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, before I resume the questions, it just

14 occurs to us that developments on Friday afternoon in relation to

15 scheduling Mr. Krajisnik's evidence because of course, we're not in

16 communication with Mr. Krajisnik. It's all been going on without him, the

17 defendant, actually having any idea that any of these exchanges and these

18 orders have been made --


20 MR. STEWART: -- unless Your Honour would feel it appropriate to

21 inform Mr. Krajisnik of where we are.


23 Now, I have to -- Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Stewart asked for more time.

24 I think we granted him compensation for -- for the time we lost at the

25 first day by giving one additional day, and Mr. Stewart has -- from what I

Page 24426

1 understand, intends to ask us for more time. As matters stand at this

2 moment, the order granting one additional day, which brings us to

3 Wednesday included -- Wednesday included?

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean three days from now on, today,

6 tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, is the way matters stand now.

7 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: There are two matters, Your Honour, we filed a

9 motion to which Your Honour indicated which Mr. Krajisnik should perhaps

10 know. The other which would supposedly be of interest to Mr. Krajisnik is

11 that the Trial Chamber, as things stand, has rejected the Prosecution's

12 application for the time between the close of Mr. Krajisnik's evidence and

13 the beginning of cross-examination, so as matters follow immediately, the

14 one on the other.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I should have informed Mr. Krajisnik that where the

16 Prosecution asked for a couple of days to further prepare, the Chamber has

17 denied that request.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I ask something of

21 you? I don't want to interrupt Mr. Stewart later on. I have a request

22 to make. I'd like to intervene with respect of the record. When I gave

23 the statement about Trovrh, I mention Veliki Zep by mistake. I said that

24 my part was, first of all, Veliki Zep, that is indeed a repeater station

25 in the municipality of Han Pijesak, but Trovrh is between Pale and

Page 24427

1 Gorazde, that border. So the part relating to Veliki Zep I made a mistake

2 there. It has nothing to do with the answer related to Trovrh itself.

3 And a second point. I made several slip of the tongues when I

4 said -- when I meant prison cell, I said "office" so could that be

5 corrected, please; that was a mistake on my part.

6 I would also like to ask the Trial Chamber, if possible, to give

7 me permission to make a brief statement as accused, in the capacity of the

8 accused, pursuant to the right you accorded me of being able to ask the

9 witness questions from my position in the accused's seat.

10 So thank you, Your Honours, for giving me the floor, and that's my

11 second request later -- for later on.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik. First of all, the corrections

13 are on the record, so they are there.

14 Yes, about the statement, we'll consider that. It's foreseen in

15 the Rules and there is a practice in -- developed in other Chambers that

16 at the very end of the case that they allowed an accused to make a short

17 statement. Whether we'll follow that practice, yes or no, is another

18 matter. So timing might be an issue we'll still have to discuss and

19 whether at all, because the -- when an opportunity was given, you didn't

20 use that. This is not to say that not another opportunity will be given

21 to you, but that's for the Chamber to consider. But your request is there

22 and we'll inform you about it.

23 Did you, yourself, have a specific idea on timing. Would at the

24 very end of the case something that was on your mind or would you --

25 because the Chamber might be reluctant to do it too close to your

Page 24428

1 testimony in order not to have matters confused, that you're now speaking

2 as a witness, whereas an unsworn statement, from what I understand you'd

3 like to make, should be well separated from your testimony as a witness.

4 Did you have anything in mind as far as timing is concerned?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, linked to the

6 instructions and guidelines that you gave me or, rather, the Trial Chamber

7 gave me, I just wanted to say something in that connection. I was

8 thinking along procedural lines, that I should sit over there as the

9 accused, ask what I have to ask for five minutes of this witness, the

10 place here, et cetera. Just an explanation that would be useful to me.

11 I'd have to consult my Defence counsel, but I can't do that in this

12 position, so that's it.

13 Your Honours, I'd like this to be before I complete my testimony,

14 so not at the end of my testimony, but before I complete my testimony.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So you'd like to make it part of your testimony?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not as a witness, no. I would like

17 briefly to remind you of the instructions the Trial Chamber gave me as the

18 accused. Now, the -- there isn't an accused now, he's not over there,

19 he's over here. So what this courtroom needs now is that accused over

20 there, that's all we need in the courtroom.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. I also understand that you, more or

22 less, request to have an opportunity to discuss this with counsel, perhaps

23 because -- counsel will certainly understand that having an unsworn

24 statement somewhere in the middle of a testimony is -- is, perhaps, not

25 the most likely course to take, but you'll have an opportunity to discuss

Page 24429

1 this -- you'll --

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: You'll have an opportunity to discuss this briefly

4 with -- with counsel during one of the next breaks. That's on the record

5 as well.

6 Mr. Stewart, please -- oh, yes, Mr. --

7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. In connection with the matters

8 discussed earlier and just so the Court is not caught by surprise, the

9 Prosecution would also ask for an opportunity to re-address the issues

10 raised in Friday and addressed by the Court's response on Friday

11 afternoon.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. That's on the record as well.

13 Yes, Mr. --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have brought the map here with me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I learned from the registrar that you have brought

16 the map indicating the road between -- the road the convoy had taken,

17 although I also saw that not the whole of it could be on the map. But at

18 least it's, could I say, a northerly route around the city of Sarajevo,

19 all on Serb territory --

20 MR. JOSSE: Could --


22 MR. JOSSE: Could I take a look at that, Your Honour, and when I'm

23 next on my feet perhaps I could then deal with it. Now is not a

24 convenient time as far as the Defence are concerned.

25 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I asked because I thought that

Page 24430

1 to be a proper way of doing it. I first asked Mr. Registrar to make

2 copies of it so that we -- but you may have a look at it at this moment,

3 that's not a problem.

4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Stewart.

6 MR. STEWART: Well, no doubt Mr. Josse and I can have a while of

7 innocent interest over the last five minutes' transcript of the Rules,

8 Your Honour, and come back to those matters in due course.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

12 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I was either coming on to or had just come on to

13 presidential meeting which was held at the beginning of -- or early in

14 June 1992, on the 10th of June. It's the 5th Session of the Presidency,

15 and it's P64A, bundle 25, tab 730. It's also in P65, bundle 12, tab 157,

16 the ERN is 00837972. That's the -- that's the English ERN. I don't think

17 the B/C/S ERN is needed immediately. We have it if it is.

18 MR. STEWART: Could Mr. Krajisnik be given that?

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have it.


22 Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

23 Now, do you see it's five people listed as president, including

24 yourself. And then immediately after that it says: "At the beginning of

25 the session, the Presidency reviewed information received during the

Page 24431

1 night," it must be the night, "at the situation at the front and reports

2 of the international," it reads "public foreign press," in the English,

3 but I think the sense is pretty clear.

4 Mr. Krajisnik, did anybody in particular among the leadership deal

5 at that time with reports coming in from or in the international press?

6 A. I don't think so. I can't give you an answer as to who could have

7 provided the information and what the information was about, but I do

8 believe that at that meeting somebody was supposed to be there who wasn't

9 recorded as having been present, somebody who wasn't listed, and perhaps

10 he informed the meeting. As I said, there were always more people

11 attending these meetings than was recorded in the minutes.

12 Q. Do you have any recollection of what the reports from the

13 international media were about at that time?

14 A. All this was - how shall I put this? - very unprofessional in

15 operational terms. It was more on the basis of what could be heard,

16 learnt, that kind of thing. I'm quite certain that it wasn't a piece of

17 information or report that had been compiled. Quite simply, there was a

18 discussion going on, and if anything -- anybody knew anything more about

19 the matter under discussion, then they would say. But as to the

20 information media, I don't know, unless it was the Ministry of Information

21 that knew something more about this. So what I'm saying is this: It

22 might have been individual pieces of information presented at meetings of

23 that kind regarding this topic that we were pre-occupied with, and we,

24 ourselves, couldn't receive enough information. So if anybody had

25 anything to volunteer, they did.

Page 24432

1 Q. Then further down in this minute, it's after the 12 numbered

2 points, and it says: "The Presidency agreed with the draft decree." And

3 I want you to go down to where there's a list of six people. Do you see

4 that, Mr. Djukanovic, Poplasen, and so on, there's a numbered list of six

5 people. Do you see that?

6 A. Yes, I do see that.

7 Q. That's introduced by: "At the session the list was compiled of

8 commissioners of the SBH Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

9 leadership. The following persons were appointed commissioners," and then

10 they're listed. And we've heard something about that. Did you have any

11 hand or involvement in the selection of those six people to be

12 commissioners?

13 A. I remember this meeting. No, I did not have any hand or

14 involvement in it. Now, this group of people, not everyone, not Mr.

15 Tintor, for example, or Mr. Veselinovic, but the four others before that,

16 Mr. Djokanovic, Poplasen, Mucibabic, and Radovanovic, they were cadres

17 which Mr. Koljevic proposed, that that be some emissaries of the state

18 leadership or commissioners. And at the time Mr. Djukanovic -- I heard

19 this for the first time then, that some sort of decision should be taken

20 with respect to commissioners. He testified here that he had discussed it

21 with Mr. Karadzic and that they were appointed as commissioners at the

22 time, and he talked about that decision. When I said a moment ago

23 Professor Aleksandar Buha, for example, that there were people in addition

24 to these persons and Djukanovic himself said that he attended the meeting

25 when this matter was discussed. So as I said a moment ago, there were

Page 24433

1 more people attending than was recorded in the minutes. I had nothing to

2 do with these appointments at the time, nor did I know that a decision

3 about commissioners would be taken and that the decision on the Presidency

4 would be revoked. I just listened about -- to it.

5 Q. Was there at that time any suggestion that you would have a -- a

6 specific role yourself in relation to those commissioners?

7 A. No, there was not. That came under the competency of the

8 president, and Mr. Koljevic was charged by the Presidency at that time, in

9 the name of the Presidency. And up until that contentious meeting that

10 was discussed here a number of times, when they sort of said that I should

11 take over that duty, and I can explain that here if you want to hear about

12 it.

13 Q. We'll come to that, Mr. Krajisnik, it does come up in a later

14 meeting.

15 In this minute, after those six names, it continues: "At the

16 session the Presidency issued the following assignment." And then

17 Dr. Plavsic is given an assignment. And then Mr. Koljevic, it says: "To

18 report to the War Presidency and influence the creativity of the SBH

19 media."

20 Mr. Krajisnik, what do you understand by the reference there to

21 the War Presidency?

22 A. Well, the mention of "War Presidency" is a term which was freely

23 introduced there, without any foundations. There was an armed conflict

24 on, so the person who wrote this -- well, it would have been immaterial to

25 him whether it was a Presidency session or a War Presidency session.

Page 24434

1 That's just a mistake, a mistake that it was normal to make because we

2 were talking about a time of war. There was a war on. So the person

3 writing this didn't take care to write "Presidency," but just sort of

4 thought because there was a war on they wrote "War Presidency." A War

5 Presidency never existed, so this term is inappropriate.

6 Q. Was that term, and you've obviously got it in your own language

7 there as it was in this document, was that term, in fact, ever used in

8 discussion among any of the leadership or those working around them?

9 A. I don't think so. The correct term was always "Presidency,"

10 although I don't exclude the possibility that someone might have said "War

11 Presidency" on a municipality level or whatever. And for purposes of

12 illustration, in war there were two words that were most frequently used

13 as adjectives. Serb or Serbian, like Serbian force or Serbian lands and

14 so on, and war, a war situation, a war event. That was the nature of the

15 times. It imposed terminology like that which didn't correspond to the

16 truth, nor the situation as it had been established. I don't think any of

17 us would say "War Presidency," although I don't exclude the possibility

18 that somebody might have made a mistake.

19 Q. I've finished with those minutes for the moment, Mr. Krajisnik.

20 Could you be given the minutes of the government meeting, 25th government

21 meeting, that's the 10th of June, 199 --

22 A. Mr. Stewart, might I just be allowed to add something in this

23 context, please?

24 Q. I'm sure the Trial Chamber will allow you to do that,

25 Mr. Krajisnik?

Page 24435

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A moment ago you asked me whether I

3 had anything to do with the commissioners. Here we can see that it was

4 Mr. Koljevic's assignment to complete the work started in Vogosca with

5 respect to commissioners and the commission, which means that he was in

6 charge of that prior to that, not anybody else. So I just wanted to draw

7 your attention to that matter, that he was given this assignment on behalf

8 of the Presidency, to deal with commissions and commissioners.


10 Q. What was the commission which is recorded here as having been

11 started in Vogosca?

12 A. Well, two notions or two institutions having mixed up here,

13 Presidency and commission. There was action underway to establish a

14 Presidency, pursuant to the decision taken. This assignment was not

15 completed by Mr. Koljevic. Now, since commissioners were the subject of

16 discussion here, the recording clerk wrote down that the work should be

17 completed. Now, as the Presidency didn't exist after this date, he wrote

18 it down as the nomination appointment of commissioners for the commission

19 in Vogosca. So he had been working on that as an assignment of his

20 beforehand.

21 Q. Did you know about the commission in Vogosca at the time?

22 A. No, I do not know about it. All I'm saying is that I know that

23 Mr. Koljevic was put in charge of that, that matter, so I'm just drawing

24 your attention to the fact that it was his duty and assignment before this

25 date and after this date. But it refers to a municipality commissioner,

Page 24436

1 office, or commission, which replaced the Crisis Staffs.

2 Q. Right. Thank you. Mr. Krajisnik, I've finished with that minute

3 unless --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I have not found any reference to

5 Vogosca in it.

6 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, it's in -- we -- we looked at

7 those six numbered names.


9 MR. STEWART: And then the next bit, I had asked Mr. Krajisnik

10 about the War Presidency and then it's -- in the English it's the next

11 dashed insert: "To complete work on the commission started in Vogosca."

12 Does Your Honour see that?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I now see it, yes.

14 MR. STEWART: It's immediately following -- that's what

15 Mr. Krajisnik has in mind. Thank you.

16 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I was going to the minute of the 25th government

17 meeting --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart, have you given a list of the -- of

19 the exhibits you're going to use to Mr. Registrar?

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, so far as I'm aware we have.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I can imagine, if I look at the time, that

24 Mr. Registrar has found no time to really work on it.

25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, may I say that I believe - I

Page 24437

1 stand to be corrected as always, Your Honours - but I believe that this

2 part of the list we're on was on the list before on the weekend. So it

3 might be we've an overlap, which seems a reasonably sensible course,

4 between the list we submitted last week. We haven't got at the moment, I

5 think, all that near at the end of the list that we submitted last week.


7 Just for practical purposes, looking at the length of the list

8 that -- for Mr. Registrar to prepare every sitting day and then to put it

9 back again might be rather time-consuming.

10 MR. STEWART: Well, I'm sorry, Your Honour. We'll help if -- I

11 have limited detailed familiarity with the precise way in which

12 Mr. Registrar deals with papers, but, Your Honour, we thought that the

13 more advance notice we gave and the longer list of items that we would,

14 for practical purposes, definitely come to, the more helpful that would

15 be. But we're always willing to adapt, Your Honour, but we had thought

16 that would be the most helpful course.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].

18 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, I was just waiting. Is

19 everybody caught up? Mr. Krajisnik's got the document I see.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I want to ask you -- well, I didn't in the end. I

21 suppose everybody's got it. I didn't in the end of all that give the

22 references. It's P64A, binder 25, tab 678. It's ERN 01245359.

23 Mr. Krajisnik, under item 6 of the actual minutes after we go past

24 the agenda it says: "The following conclusions have been made, that the

25 Ministry of Justice should make a report about the prisoners."

Page 24438

1 Do you find that -- I'm sorry, it's item 7. I'm sorry, I didn't

2 notice the subheading at the bottom of the page. Item 7: "The Ministry

3 of Justice should make a report about prisoners."

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And then it continues: "This report should pay special attention

6 on treatment of civilian population, prisoners of war, accommodation,

7 food, et cetera. The report will be considered by the government, after

8 which it would be submitted to the Presidency of the republic."

9 Now, this was a government meeting, Mr. Krajisnik, and you've made

10 it clear in your evidence that you did not attend these meetings. But can

11 you say whether at this time, this was the 10th of June, were you aware of

12 any special concerns in relation to treatment of, first of all, civilian

13 population?

14 A. This was something that the government decided on its own,

15 independently, because it came under its competence and authority. So

16 there was a constant activity in order to have prisoner exchanges on the

17 principle of all-for-all. And there was an agreement between the Muslim

18 and Serb side which was signed and okayed by UNPROFOR, initialled by

19 UNPROFOR. And as this was not successful, then the government, on its own

20 initiative, organised two or thee commissions which toured the prisons.

21 And later on at some point, I think it was in August, informed the

22 Presidency of its findings, and the Presidency took steps to effect what

23 had been agreed. So this was a government initiative because the other

24 side did not offer appropriate conditions for the exchange of prisoners,

25 and probably they wanted to see what the conditions that these people were

Page 24439

1 living in were like, and also to have a look at the civilian situation.

2 So I didn't deal with this, and as far as I remember this was not

3 something dealt with at consultative meetings but it was something that

4 the government did. So if you don't have a report, you can't have a

5 proper discussion on the subject matter.

6 Q. What was -- what was your understanding at the time,

7 Mr. Krajisnik, about in what circumstances civilian population might or

8 could become prisoners in the course of war of this nature?

9 A. The general opinion that prevailed was this, that the entire

10 population and all the people, all the -- were actually the army, all

11 ethnic groups with the army. It was a civil war. You had the front, but

12 it wasn't a classical form of combat. It didn't -- everybody was in some

13 sort of conflict with everybody else, regardless of age, sex, and so on.

14 That was the general situation. There were very few instances where you

15 could refer to a group as purely civilian, but I never thought that

16 somebody ought to be taken prisoner or put into prison because -- if they

17 weren't guilty of anything. It was only the conflicting parties or the

18 warring parties that could be taken prisoner as members of the opposite

19 side and if they were soldiers or part of the armed forces, although it

20 was difficult to distinguish between civilians and soldiers because even

21 people over the age of 60 or 17 year-olds or however old they were, stood

22 guard in front of their houses or in the trenches. But if you take a

23 group of civilians, women and children, they could not be soldiers,

24 therefore, and by the same token ought not to have been in prison.

25 Q. At this time were -- leaving aside for the moment, Mr. Krajisnik,

Page 24440

1 the point you dealt with in the previous answer as to it being the

2 government's responsibility, I'm asking you about what you knew. At this

3 time were you aware of any significant concerns that the -- that those

4 taken prisoner by Serb forces included women, children, or anybody else

5 who ought not to have been imprisoned?

6 A. I was not involved in such matters at all. If you're asking me

7 whether I thought about this as a private individual, as a human being, of

8 course I was concerned. I would have been worried if somebody got into

9 prison or was tortured, especially people who are not guilty. However,

10 the government would have to establish, first and foremost, whether any

11 such thing happened at all. I believe that these categories of people

12 should not have been in prison in the first place, especially because

13 there was this ongoing thesis that people got close to prisons in order to

14 seek security, safety, to get away from conflicts. Mr. Mandic gave an

15 example of this nature. It's not that they wanted to be detained, they

16 wanted to go to the other side. So I was worried as a private individual,

17 not as someone who was supposed to take measures in this respect and who

18 was supposed to be involved in this in any way.

19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, were you -- prisoners of war are specifically

20 mentioned there. Were you aware at the time that there were laws and

21 restrictions governing the proper treatment of prisoners of war?

22 A. I was not aware of any rules. I assumed that there had been rules

23 and that if a person is in prison, then those who keep them in prison

24 should stick to the rules. But I, personally, was never involved in this

25 subject matter. I never read any rules to that effect or any statutes.

Page 24441

1 This was done by those who were in charge of that, but I did assume that

2 there had to be rules.

3 Q. Were you at this time - and we're talking about the 10th of June;

4 the precise day is not so important, Mr. Krajisnik, but that part of

5 June - had you received or heard any concerns that prisoners of war were

6 being maltreated at the hands of Serbs in a -- in an unacceptable or

7 inappropriate way?

8 A. The answer is no. No. I am so convinced that I was never

9 informed of any such thing. Had I been informed, I certainly would have

10 intervened in order to have an analysis carried out, if I can put it that

11 way. However, on the basis of this I can infer that a similar type of

12 information reached the government, and then the government sent a

13 commission of its own to investigate these rumours in order to see what

14 the actual situation was and then to inform the Presidency. Perhaps

15 somebody from the Presidency learned something about this and said: Well,

16 investigate the matter and tell us about it, but I did not know about it

17 because this was not my line of work.

18 Q. The -- the next government session- and I don't want to ask you

19 anymore about that one, Mr. Krajisnik. The next government session, the

20 26th Session on the 11th of June is P583. It's ERN 01245362. The first

21 item -- do you have that, Mr. Krajisnik? The --

22 A. Yes, the 11th of June, I have it.

23 Q. The first item which is considered -- it's on the agenda: "Current

24 issue relating to mobilisation," and then after the agenda items are

25 listed it picks up that item 1 again.

Page 24442

1 "The government has thoroughly and critically conducted

2 activities, the measures and problems related to the mobilisation in

3 Serbian republic of BiH. It's been concluded that the successful conduct

4 of the mobilisation we've been undertaking a number of different measures

5 that have been objectively possible in the present circumstances. The

6 government has been suggesting that general mobilisation and it's been

7 trying to satisfactorily conduct it through use of announcements, media,

8 and written forms."

9 Were you involved, in any way, in those steps in relation to

10 mobilisation?

11 A. No, this was not within my authority. Perhaps I could have

12 attended some meeting, perhaps somebody spoke about this, but this

13 particular meeting, these measures, no.

14 Q. And then after the next paragraph it says: "It has been concluded

15 first that the law on defence and the law on army should be immediately

16 made accessible to all municipalities."

17 Were you involved, in any way, in making that material accessible

18 to municipalities?

19 A. As far as I can remember, this law on the military and on defence

20 was adopted on the 12th of May. Technically, it was the government that

21 was supposed to have this distributed. As far as I can remember, there

22 were some changes made and they adopted a different version of this law.

23 Now, was it this new law that they were supposed to send to the

24 municipalities, I really don't know. But as for the session of the 12th

25 of May, if any of that was adopted, then the relevant services sent this

Page 24443

1 to the municipalities, if possible. However, if impossible, then they

2 could not send it because there were poor communications. At this point

3 in time, it was impossible to send anything to the western part of

4 Republika Srpska, for example, the Official Gazette or something like

5 that. Or unusual ways were sought to send things to these municipalities.

6 So that is probably the reason why the government reached this kind of

7 decision.

8 Q. What was the state of telephone communications at that time

9 within -- well, within Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10 A. I think -- well, actually, I have an impression, and perhaps that

11 impression is not quite correct. I think that, to put it mildly, it was

12 very, very difficult for us to establish telephone communications outside

13 the Romanija area. But I think that some way was found of sending

14 messages, but these were short messages. As for documents like these, I

15 don't think they were sent. If the Assembly was supposed to deal with

16 something, then the MPs would receive it at the following session of the

17 Assembly. It was very hard to do this, and I think it was very hard to

18 send it to the municipalities because it was so difficult to do. As far

19 as I can remember, telephone lines were down. Sometimes they did operate,

20 though, but it's hard for me to pin-point exactly when this happened.

21 In terms of longer conversations or ongoing communication, no,

22 that was quite impossible. But short messages, well that was possible.

23 How exactly, I do not recall.

24 Q. I want to turn then, Mr. Krajisnik, to the 6th Session. You can

25 put that document on one side. The 6th Session of the Presidency, which

Page 24444

1 was the 13th of June, 1992. That's P65, binder 12, tab 161, ERN

2 00814287.

3 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

4 Q. It's quite a short minute or they are short minutes. Five people

5 listed as --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- Present. And two items on the agenda: "Report on the

8 situation in the field. The Presidency read written reports from the

9 crisis areas."

10 So written reports from the crisis areas came from whom?

11 A. Well, I don't know. As far as I can remember, although it came as

12 a surprise to me, on the 11th of June, the Prime Minister was in the

13 western part of Republika Srpska. And at one session he reported on what

14 the situation was like in that area. So - how should I put this? -

15 perhaps he did present some report or something. It would be good if we

16 could look this up, the 11th of June, the Presidency. As far as I can

17 remember, he did report on being in Bosanska Krajina. So I cannot say who

18 it was that sent that report and what all of this was about, unless I'm

19 right when I say that he had been there and then briefed us about it, if

20 my memory serves me correctly. Now, how he went to the Krajina, I don't

21 know. Probably it was the army that got him there somehow. I don't know.

22 Perhaps I've made a mistake, but as far as I can remember, that's the way

23 it was. If you can find the 11th of June, then you will be able to see

24 the Presidency -- I think it was the 11th of June, yes.

25 Q. Well, if it -- Mr. Krajisnik, if you express some doubts, if it

Page 24445

1 helps your recollection in any way, Mr. Djeric was shown as present at the

2 government meeting on the 11th of June, but he's shown as absent on the

3 13th of June when Mr. Trbojevic chaired the government meeting instead.

4 A. Yes. I know that at one point in time until the corridor was --

5 well, perhaps it was the 11th of June, perhaps it wasn't the 11th of June.

6 If you have a record of the Presidency meeting of the 11th of June, then

7 perhaps you could check whether Mr. Djeric reported on his visit to the

8 Krajina. Perhaps I've made a mistake. I'm trying to be of assistance

9 because I don't have the right answer as to who this could be providing

10 information of this kind, somebody who had been travelling, somebody who

11 was in a position to obtain some information.

12 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, you've asked, just so that we can make it

13 clear, you've asked if there's a record of the Presidency meeting of the

14 11th of June, but we looked a moment ago at what's described as the 5th

15 Session of the Presidency on the 10th of June, and we're now looking at

16 the 6th Session on the 13th of June. So -- I don't want to give evidence,

17 but we can all read, it looks as if --

18 A. No, no --

19 Q. -- Such a meeting on the 11th?

20 A. I withdraw that, then. I can check that during the break, I mean

21 what I meant.

22 Q. That would be helpful then, in doubt, Mr. Krajisnik. Is it

23 possible to say -- well, no doubt there was a war on, but is it possible

24 to say that this item: "The Presidency read written reports from the

25 crisis areas," are you able to identify what were regarded at that time as

Page 24446

1 the crisis areas?

2 A. Well, not all along the front line, although the entire Republic

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was actually a front line, I mean between the

4 warring parties. There wasn't a conflict going on everywhere at the same

5 time. In some places there were cease-fires -- well, not official

6 cease-fires but, quite simply, there was no shooting. Local people

7 established some kind of tacit cease-fires. So the only thing that was

8 referred to were crisis areas where the Serb side was under threat or,

9 rather, where there were war operations going on.

10 Q. And it -- it says then that: "Concrete activities of the members

11 of the Presidency regarding the situation in the field were agreed upon."

12 Do you -- first of all, do you have any recollections as to

13 whether any such activities or their, apparently, responsibilities were

14 given to you at that point?

15 A. Oh, no, absolutely. It was believed that the members of the

16 Presidency should be more active on the ground. Perhaps this particularly

17 pertained to Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, although in part to

18 Mr. Karadzic, too. But I think it was the two of them for the most part.

19 Quite simply, they should tour the front line and become acquainted with

20 problems and, in a way, boost the morale of the soldiers. But this has

21 nothing to do with the Prime Minister or with me. We had other

22 engagements.

23 Q. Then item 2 the Presidency adopted two decisions, apparently, and

24 I'm looking at the second one. "Decision to ban the establishment and

25 activities of armed groups and individuals in the territory of the

Page 24447

1 republic which are not under the central command of the army and police."

2 Can you say to what extent that was understood by those attending

3 this meeting as a problem?

4 A. When you have an armed people and when you establish an army, then

5 a problem crops up. It was the municipalities that were financing the

6 army because there were no other resources. Very often many of these

7 groups sort of got out of control from the command, that is. As far as I

8 remember this had to do with something that happened in Herzegovina, I

9 think in Nevesinje or somewhere like that. Later on Mr. Karadzic issued

10 an order stating that an investigation should be carried out and that

11 these people should be disarmed. However, the Main Staff kept insisting

12 that there should be political activity vis-a-vis the municipalities so

13 that they would not -- well, how shall I put this? - they -- that they

14 should not attempt to influence the army, although actually there wasn't

15 this kind of influence coming from the municipalities, but then certain

16 commanders in the field were not very competent. So municipal officials

17 were concerned, and sometimes, due to this concern, they quite simply

18 wanted to give their own views and to raise objections because they feared

19 a tragedy might happen. So this very notion of paramilitary units had a

20 double meaning. If it's somebody from the outside, then they have to be

21 placed under the command of the military; but if it's somebody on local

22 level who wants to behave willfully, that is not possible. Everybody has

23 to be under a single command. That was invariably the view of

24 Mr. Karadzic and of the Presidency as a collective organ.

25 Q. Now, you -- you knew of the person who is very commonly known as

Page 24448

1 Arkan at this time, Mr. Krajisnik, didn't you?

2 A. I didn't know him. I said that yesterday, here, too. Now, from

3 this distance everybody thinks that Arkan was well-known. I would also

4 like the Trial Chamber to admit this correction. It wasn't that I met him

5 in Bijeljina but in Banja Luka, for five minutes, and this importance that

6 is being attached to Arkan and the way he's being qualified now, that's

7 not the kind of importance he had then as far as I'm concerned. As a

8 matter of fact, I can say that he was on anonymous person. The fact that

9 he kissed Mrs. Plavsic and everybody knew about that, that was politically

10 exploited later, as far as I could see. For me, Arkan was a person like

11 any other person, if I can put it that way.

12 Now, in 1992 when MPs came, then I found out that he participated

13 somewhat in what happened in Bijeljina, even in a positive fashion. But

14 when Mrs. Plavsic came back, I do not remember that at the press

15 conference she spoke about Arkan. I don't know. Perhaps she said some

16 volunteer, I don't know what word she used, made it impossible for members

17 of other ethnic groups to get through and that the door was open and that

18 the visit to Bijeljina was made possible. But anyway, in 1992 I never saw

19 Arkan and I didn't really know him, except on the basis of such examples,

20 as I said.

21 Q. So where in the minute of the Presidency meeting there's a

22 reference to "armed groups and individuals," can you say whether Arkan's

23 name came up in the course of discussion among this group?

24 A. I do not recall. I am convinced that this did not refer to Arkan

25 and to those individuals of his. As far as I can remember, it had to do

Page 24449

1 with some kind of unit in Nevesinje in Herzegovina that was acting

2 willfully. I think that Arkan was only in Bijeljina and in this eastern

3 area. I think he was in Serbia or in Krajina, but he was not in Republika

4 Srpska, at least as far as I could establish by way of some kind of

5 analysis later. At first he was, and later he wasn't. In 1992, that is.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when you say that you're convinced that this did

7 not refer to Arkan and to those individuals in answer to my specific

8 question, do you -- did this decision, as recorded here, apply to Arkan

9 and whatever group he had with him?

10 A. All people, including Arkan and whoever else. If they were in the

11 territory of Republika Srpska, they could not act on their own. They had

12 to be under the single command of the Army of Republika Srpska and the

13 Main Staff, headed by Mr. Mladic. And that went for all. I mean, that

14 was -- that had to -- that had to apply to all; now, whether it actually

15 did is another matter.

16 Q. Was there any opposition expressed to this decision within the

17 group that met on the occasion of this Presidency meeting?

18 A. Absolutely not. Every person, every member of the government,

19 every member of the Presidency, and Mr. Djeric in particular, and I, and

20 representatives of the Main Staff, we all stood united throughout the war,

21 that there can be no special units or paramilitary units outside the

22 single command. If somebody was a volunteer, he still had to be under the

23 command.

24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm moving on now then, please, to the government

25 meeting which was held on the same day, that's the 27th meeting of the

Page 24450

1 government, 13th of June, 1992. That's P64A, binder 25, tab 671, and the

2 ERN is 0124 --

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, having got the document already, I'm

4 looking at the clock, I don't know if -- before we go into the meeting, is

5 that a good point for Your Honours? I'm a bit early, aren't I?

6 JUDGE ORIE: You're a bit earlier.

7 MR. STEWART: Sorry, I've miscalculated. I've slipped by 15

8 minutes. My apologies. I'm going by half-hours. No problem, then.

9 We'll crack on.

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the -- you had this meeting of the government. I

11 don't want to trouble you on several items on this agenda, but then go to

12 item 7, which go headed "current issues," not in the agenda list but in

13 the actual body of the minute. Do you find item 7, "Current issues"?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. It says: "It has been concluded that the minister of foreign

16 affairs should send a letter of protest to the permanent members of the

17 Security Council KEBS" -- wasn't that the Serbian acronym for the OSCE, if

18 I remembered that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Boutros-Ghali, Mr. Boutros-Ghali and James Baker, which would

21 emphasise that there are no members of BiH anymore, "that only the

22 citizens of our republic are in the Serbian army, that there are regular

23 units from Croatia on our territory, that a number of persons from

24 Sandjak," meaning from foreign state, that's in Serbia, isn't it,

25 Sandjak? --

Page 24451

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... "from a foreign state are on

3 our territory. That the commander of TO of ex-Republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina is a person from Sandzak, that some of the Presidency members

5 are not its citizens," et cetera.

6 At this point, Mr. Krajisnik, was the -- how was the

7 responsibility for dealing with the -- well, it's particularly the United

8 Nations and the United States here worked out or divided up as between the

9 government and the Presidency?

10 A. I don't know whether this has been properly translated. Whose

11 responsibility? Who was in charge of contacts with foreign countries,

12 with other countries? Is that what you are referring to?

13 Q. Well, particularly the United Nations and the United States, that

14 there is -- KEBS included here but I was asking you specifically about

15 United Nations and United States.

16 A. There were two or three, rather, points, places, three individuals

17 who were in charge of liaising with international representatives,

18 Presidency representatives. Mostly this was Mrs. Plavsic for humanitarian

19 issues and Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Karadzic, and in the government it was

20 supposed to be the foreign minister, Mr. Aleksa Buha. And the third place

21 person or place was the minister of information as being the technical

22 facilitator for decisions, communiques, et cetera. Now, you asked about

23 the United States and KEBS. Here the government had its own foreign

24 minister, and he was given that assignment. Whether he did his job or

25 not, I can't, but probably he did.

Page 24452

1 Q. Were you personally still involved with your colleagues Dr.

2 Karadzic and Professor Koljevic in attempts to continue the Cutileiro

3 talks?

4 A. Yes, I was. If an international representative would come by, and

5 many of them did come by, then we would sit down with them, have a

6 meeting, and discuss possibilities for continuing the conference.

7 Q. Did you have any other responsibilities in the international

8 sphere at that time, apart from your responsibilities in relation to the

9 European Community Cutileiro talks?

10 A. No, I did not have any other responsibilities, except if an

11 international representative would come to Pale and there was nobody else

12 to receive him, then it might have been me who would sit down and meet

13 with the representatives, see what he wanted, comment, give my opinion,

14 things like that. I never took any decision, but I could provide the

15 individual with information so that the representative would be able to go

16 home, do the job he had come to do, and very often they would turn up

17 unannounced, although that was rare.

18 Q. And then on this same minute, the next paragraph, it says: "The

19 need to quickly determine strategic plans of the republic with regard to

20 territory, borders, relations, and other issues which would be the basis

21 for determining balance of goods and other needs has been pointed out."

22 Mr. Krajisnik, so far as strategic plans with regard to territory

23 and borders are concerned, what were the options or possibilities that

24 were under consideration at that time?

25 A. The topical question was always this - asked by the government,

Page 24453

1 the army, deputies, here we're talking about the government - to establish

2 and ascertain why we're fighting, because there were two parallel

3 activities. One was to negotiate, the second was to deal with the armed

4 conflict that was going on. And most frequently I think it was

5 Mr. Trbojevic who said it, we didn't always know what we wanted and that's

6 what he's explaining here in his own way. And here the government thinks

7 it's necessary to have a strategy of some kind, how to continue the

8 fighting which was imposed and how to conduct the negotiations. Because,

9 quite obviously, what we discussed on the 12th of May was - how shall I

10 put this? - our position as to what we should strive for in the

11 negotiations. But this seems to have been unclear in the minds of those

12 who concluded this. So they were lacking in that respect. They had to

13 know why we were fighting politically and militarily.

14 Q. And then it said that: "The question of having a joint meeting of

15 the government and the republic Presidency has been brought up once more.

16 Reason for this has been the conclusion that the government is not

17 sufficiently informed about the most important issues and that, therefore,

18 it cannot participate in determining the policy and making of the vital

19 decisions which is its legal right and duty. It's been emphasised that

20 having this meeting is urgent and unpostponable."

21 Mr. Krajisnik, that's -- obviously can be labelled a complaint

22 within that meeting, the government wasn't being sufficiently informed

23 about the most important issues. Was that complaint, whoever precisely

24 was raising it, was that complaint within the government meeting justified

25 at that time?

Page 24454

1 A. No, it wasn't justified, but it did have a reason. There is great

2 uncertainty in wartime, and the government was not sufficiently informed,

3 just like other organs. I, the Presidency, we didn't have enough

4 information coming in to us. And now it was territorially divided, and it

5 was divided that the Presidency or the president of the Assembly had some

6 information which they weren't imparting, weren't sending on, whereas the

7 process should be the reverse. It should be the government supplying the

8 Assembly and the Presidency with information, but this was sent -- made

9 topsy-turvy. They had no -- turned upside down. They had no information

10 and sought information from others. I claim that the Presidency did not

11 have the right information nor did the president of the Assembly, and that

12 if they did then the government members must have known about it or the

13 deputies, let alone the ministers. So there was a dilemma here, and the

14 dilemma was that information should be disclosed, not that somebody have

15 information and hide it from the others. That was quite wrong.

16 Q. And then there's a -- the next paragraph then in this minute,

17 there's an issue of housing in the government in Bistrica. I'm not

18 wishing to ask you specifically about this, Mr. Krajisnik. It then leads

19 on into the next paragraph which begins: "It has been concluded that this

20 issue should be urgently resolved," so that's the Bistrica issue. "It has

21 also been concluded that a joint meeting of republic leadership

22 representatives and Pale municipality leadership should be held, so as to

23 discuss the aspects of all open issues, disable different objections,

24 rumours, and similar, and to reach an agreement about the current issues

25 of locating republic government in Pale."

Page 24455

1 Apart from, apparently, that issue of the location of the

2 government, what were the issues that needed or justified discussions

3 between the republic leadership and the Pale municipality leadership?

4 A. What is referred to here is Bistrica, that's where the government

5 had already been for about ten days. But -- or 15 days, a fortnight, I

6 can't really remember. Anyway, it didn't -- the location didn't suit it,

7 wasn't suitable, and it said that the location ought to be changed and

8 that they should go somewhere else, better suited.

9 Now, as far as the Pale municipality is concerned, the leadership

10 of the Serb republic came to Pale. Many people came to a relatively poor

11 municipality, people from outside, and your -- you come there and you're a

12 great consumer and you upset the balance and the way in which people work

13 there. So competencies were intermingled. For purposes of illustration

14 there was general dissatisfaction, local dissatisfaction, or the

15 dissatisfaction of the local leadership with the republic leadership and

16 their attitude towards them and there were protests, they protested very

17 often, and the government said: We have to clear up these

18 misunderstandings, and the misunderstandings had to do with life and work

19 on a daily basis. And I think that we already had the problem of Zepa,

20 although I'm not quite sure. Let me look at the date. Well, I'll refrain

21 from going into that. I know that there were some problems between the

22 government and the municipalities, but the most important problem was that

23 a large number of refugees had come to Pale. I know that there were 14 or

24 15.000 refugees which was too difficulty for the municipality to

25 assimilate and that's asked for assistance. I remember that. Perhaps

Page 24456

1 there was something else that I can't recall just now.

2 Q. At this time, Mr. Krajisnik, which is the middle of June, for

3 practical purposes, 1992, if it's possible to say that one person was the

4 leadership of the Pale municipality, who was it?

5 A. Well, the presidents of the municipalities changed. I can't

6 remember who it was at the time. I know that there were three

7 municipality presidents during the war in Pale. One of them was

8 Starcevic, but before him there was someone else and there was a third

9 person after him so that the leadership was changed because it was a lot

10 of work and people asked to be replaced because they had so many problems

11 to deal with. It wasn't that they were replaced, it was that these people

12 asked to be allowed to step down because they had too much work. There

13 was an Executive Board, of course, and they had an Assembly.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, it appears to be on record that Mr. Starcevic

15 was at this time still the municipality president. Did you have any

16 direct dealings yourself with him?

17 A. I think I did. I think I had some dealings with him, contacts,

18 not much but I think I did.

19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in this minute about three or four paragraphs

20 further on there's a -- there's a reference to chemical weapons. "The

21 government has been acquainted with the use of chemical weapons on the

22 front in the area of Derventa. It has been agreed that the public should

23 be informed about it and that it should be used for propaganda.

24 Regardless of that, a letter of protest should be sent."

25 Did you ever come across any hard information showing there had

Page 24457

1 been use of chemical weapons?

2 A. Can you tell me where to find that.

3 Q. Sorry, it's about four paragraphs on --

4 A. -- the government -- yes, yes, I've found it. No, no, I didn't

5 know about this, no New York City.

6 Q. All right. I won't ask you about it then, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm -- I'm looking at the clock again

8 now, also 15 minutes also later.

9 Sorry, Your Honour, it seems I might have cut off an answer. I

10 didn't intend to.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, please complete your answer.


13 Q. Sorry, Mr. Krajisnik, I might have cut you off?

14 A. I wanted to indicate something which I consider to be important in

15 respect of these minutes which could be of assistance and it has to do

16 with the establishment of this government commission. That is to be found

17 at --

18 THE INTERPRETER: A little slower for the numbers.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A government commission was set up,

20 Trbojevic, Subotic, and Dandic [phoen] were the members. May I be allowed

21 to give a short comment? I think it would be of importance.

22 MR. STEWART: I'm entirely in Your Honour's hands as to whether

23 it's now or after the break.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If it doesn't take too much time, please do so.


Page 24458

1 Q. Yes, the paragraph you are referring to is the two paragraphs we

2 were looking at. It's between the reference to Pale and chemical weapons.

3 Mr. Krajisnik, you were going to say?

4 A. It will take just a minute I think. A commission was set up for

5 the depots or warehouses which were allegedly under MUP control, and the

6 goods were stolen. And this was directed against Mr. Stanisic and

7 Mr. Mandic. From this time on -- the commission didn't do anything, but

8 from this time on the conflict began between Stanisic and Mandic, Djeric

9 and Trbojevic. And if you will recall, Mr. Trbojevic spoke about that

10 during his testimony.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Perhaps, Mr. Tieger, you said you would need five minutes to

13 address the matter about last Friday.

14 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Actually, I didn't specify, but I

15 won't require any more time than that, of course.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I take it as a custom that you never take more than

17 five minutes. Could you then -- five minutes, then we could do it now and

18 we could even think about it during the next break.

19 MR. TIEGER: I would be happy to do so. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

21 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate the Court's prompt response on Friday

22 and the opportunity to address the issue again today. I hope I have -- I

23 hope I have what will be understood as a balanced and modest request, but

24 I'd like to make a couple of points before that. First of all, I'd like

25 to emphasise again the number of occasions on which the Prosecution

Page 24459

1 brought to the Chamber's attention the -- its concern about the

2 deficiencies in 65 ter summary. At that time, we recognised at some point

3 that the 65 ter summary would not be remedied, but we understood that we

4 were to bring to the Court's attention any resulting problems, which we've

5 done and I'd like to do with a little more emphasis.

6 But mentioning first that there were quite a number of earlier

7 occasions on which we brought to the Court's attention a problem with the

8 65 ter summary; the Court indicated to us at that time, as I understood it

9 its willingness to allot additional time if we were not prepared to

10 proceed in light of the problems caused. To the best of my recollection,

11 there were virtually no, if -- for the most part, we did not seek to take

12 advantage of any of those opportunities, but we pressed forward on

13 virtually all, if not all, occasions.

14 Now, the problem with the -- and I think that this is a reflection

15 of the fact that the Court understood the problems with not getting a 65

16 ter summary. So if we had a witness who spoke for two days and no

17 effective or appropriate 65 ter summary had been provided, the Court did

18 not expect us to proceed, but understood that it would be necessary to

19 take some time for preparation. In this instance, that problem has been

20 compounded over and over again. The 65 ter summary we did receive might

21 as well have said, "Mr. Krajisnik will be testifying about virtually every

22 issue related to the case." There was no meaningful way to identify the

23 materials necessary, as would be the case with an adequate 65 ter summary.

24 And the situation is effectively what we would have -- what we faced in

25 those instances with smaller or shorter witnesses but compounded

Page 24460

1 dramatically.

2 Now, we've tried to do everything we could, of course, prior to

3 and during the course of Mr. Krajisnik's examination-in-chief to

4 ameliorate the problem, and we've been far from idle; quite the contrary.

5 And indeed if not for an extreme and significant effort, we would not be

6 prepared to proceed in -- at all within any reasonable period of time and

7 discharge our responsibilities as Presidents and assist the Court in any

8 meaningful way.

9 Now, Your Honour, we of course understand that the Court has

10 responsibilities to fix and maintain the schedule, and we also understand

11 that there are issues that are apparent to the Court that may not be so

12 obvious to the parties in trying to make such a decision. And in that

13 light, we've tried to find an appropriate compromise approach that

14 reflected both the problem that we faced that was caused by the

15 deficiencies in the 65 ter summary and that recognises at the same time

16 the Court's attempt to fix an appropriate schedule.

17 So in that light, we would respectfully request the following that

18 at the conclusion of Mr. Krajisnik's testimony on Wednesday, that the

19 Prosecution would be prepared to give up one of its days and would ask the

20 Court to allot one day so that in that instance the Prosecution could

21 begin on Monday. As I said before -- indicated before, that is a

22 reflection both of our attempt to strike an appropriate balance and a

23 reflection of the considerable efforts we've put in to overcompensate in

24 this instance for the problems caused by the deficient 65 ter. Thank you,

25 Your Honour.

Page 24461

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

2 Mr. Stewart.

3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, our submission is very brief. We

4 submit that the appeal to the deficiencies of the 65 ter is entirely

5 unrealistic. Your Honour, there is a certain unreality about viewing the

6 65 ter summary in that light in relation to a defendant anyway. When

7 Mr. Tieger says: It might as well have said Mr. Krajisnik was going to

8 testify about every issue in the case, that's effectively what it did say

9 because it's pretty obvious that that is, in effect, that's what's going

10 to happen with a defendant so far as there are matters within his

11 conceivable, personal knowledge. So we don't shrink from saying, yes,

12 that's pretty much what they did said. And we submit that it's almost

13 impossible -- I'm sorry, I don't know what Mr. Tieger could want to say

14 now, but he -- of course he's free to say it.

15 MR. TIEGER: The point, Your Honour, is that the opportunity to

16 identify an appropriate range of materials from the vast volumes that

17 might be available is dependent upon the substance and nature of what the

18 witness actually does say, not the topic about which he'll testify, and

19 that problem is the one that compounded the deficiencies in a topical 65

20 ter, as contrasted with a factual summary.

21 MR. STEWART: That doesn't change our understanding one bit.

22 That's exactly how we understood Mr. Tieger's submission. But the point

23 remains the same. We're talking about whether any Prosecution, with the

24 resources they got, could reasonably have been supposed to be taken by

25 surprise in any way in relations to the preparation. But, Your Honour,

Page 24462

1 that's our submission. That's it in a nutshell, and the Trial Chamber can

2 form it's assessment. So far as the actual time is concerned,

3 Mr. Tieger's submissions and suggestions on timing do pre-empt the

4 decision in relation to our application, which we took the trouble to

5 formulate in some detail in writing this morning and to deal with

6 Mr. Tieger's application without dealing with our application is an

7 appropriate way of dealing with it, Your Honour. They -- as we indicated

8 before the weekend, these two matters are now tied together, so now the

9 whole question of scheduling our application, then Mr. Tieger's

10 application, because logically, in effect, it comes that way, need to be

11 dealt with together.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to say anything about your own

13 application, then please do so.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, our own application is really

15 relatively full. We would seek the specific information. It has a number

16 of elements to it, Your Honour, and I'm not sure that having a draft --

17 JUDGE ORIE: We received a courtesy copy before your request was

18 filed, the filing of today.

19 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So we -- if we have not read it yet, then we'll do

21 so.

22 MR. STEWART: I didn't want to take Your Honour's simply repeating

23 an issue which you will have an opportunity of reading.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, If you would like to add anything to

25 that --

Page 24463

1 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, at the moment, no, Your Honour.

2 But that doesn't mean that I would never want to add anything Your Honour,

3 but that's step number --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I would never expect you wishing not to add anything

5 at any moment, Your Honour.

6 MR. STEWART: I take that as an entirely positive and

7 complimentary remark, Your Honour. But the appropriate course is for

8 Your Honours to read our written application before we are then are

9 invited to make any supplementary observations. Otherwise --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Make any supplementary observations because the

11 Judges have read your --

12 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I was unclear as to whether

13 Your Honours had indeed read it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

15 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, I don't have any supplementary

16 observations, except for the first step. We would like to have the

17 computer information, the detailed information, which we refer to in that

18 application which we did ask for several days ago.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

20 Then before we adjourn, Mr. Stewart, when I asked whether a list

21 was provided when you introduced the 25th Session, government session, of

22 the 10th of June, you quickly responded that it was on the list. I

23 observed the following, that today half an hour before the session started

24 there was a list listing all of the government sessions on from the first

25 up to the last, which would not guide Mr. Registrar very much in which

Page 24464

1 ones to select for this day. I further observed that on the 19th, that is

2 last Friday, you listed exhibits you would -- in the -- as you said, in

3 the near future would refer to on which the 25th government session, at

4 least no government session of the 10th of June wasn't mentioned. And I

5 did not find that same session on any earlier lists sent to the registrar.

6 So if it appears somewhere, I may have had a wrong impression and I

7 would -- and the Chamber would be happy to be informed about not carefully

8 looking at those lists, apart from whether these lists were sent to the

9 Chamber as well so that they could prepare as well. And if it does not

10 appear on any list before the list that was sent at a quarter to 2.00

11 today, I take it that we don't -- well, as a matter of fact, the Chamber

12 then doesn't need to be informed about it. And I take it that you'll find

13 your way to deal with the matter together with the registrar.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I --

15 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn to --

16 MR. STEWART: Do I get no response on something like that,

17 Your Honour?

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, I made a few observations --

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour it contains an implicit criticism which

20 Your Honour does not allow me to respond.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I allowed you to respond after you have

22 checked if my observations are right. I invited you, if they're not

23 right, to inform us so that no misunderstanding would continue. If the

24 observations are right, that is that the registrar was informed for the

25 first time on the basis of a very, very long list certainly not applicable

Page 24465

1 for exhibits to be used today, that if he was for the first time informed

2 about it at a quarter to 2.00 today, then I left it to you how to deal

3 with it with the registrar.

4 We'll adjourn until 20 minutes past 4.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Stewart, most likely, either

8 late today or tomorrow morning, you'll be provided with the statistic

9 information, if I may call it that way. At the same time, you should

10 not -- you should prepare for all situations, that is, that the motion

11 would be granted, that the motion would not be granted. Everything is

12 entirely open. Since we've got only two and a half days left, you should

13 prepare for -- to prioritise -- to find your priorities in the further

14 examination of Mr. Krajisnik because if you would not do so and if the

15 motion could be denied, then you might consider yourself to unpleasantly

16 be put before a fait accompli.

17 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, thank you for that warning. If

18 I -- I don't mean this in the least bit discourteously, if I say that a

19 positive reason, it wasn't necessary, Your Honour, because we do plan for

20 all such contingencies without, of course, any acknowledgement that our

21 motion is not 100 per cent justified. Of course we've planned rules of

22 contingency and we have -- we've dealt with many unpleasant and unexpected

23 surprises, Your Honour, and will continue to do so as such.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and we -- perhaps our concern was not

25 necessary.

Page 24466

1 MR. STEWART: It's always appreciated, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 Thank you so much for that. It never does any harm to reinforce and make

3 such a potential fait accompli.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we were looking at the minutes of the government

7 session, the 27th Session, it was the same one we were looking at

8 immediately before the break. And in the penultimate paragraph of those

9 minutes, "the government indicated the need for establishing the bodies

10 and taking over of the authority in newly captured areas, which is one of

11 the predispositions for keeping those areas within the republic."

12 Were -- the government, it seems clear, was receiving information

13 in relation to that. Were you, Mr. Krajisnik, being kept regularly

14 informed about what areas were being captured during the course of the

15 conflict?

16 A. I don't know what is meant by this. If I knew, I could give an

17 answer, but I did not receive this kind of information, as mentioned here,

18 that some municipality should have its own government introduced now, but

19 I knew something in general terms.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then that -- that was the 13th of June. Could you

21 be given, please, the minutes for the 15th of June, of the government I'm

22 talking about now, still. That's the 28th Session, and that's P64A,

23 binder 25, tab 672. The ERN is 01245371.

24 Item 10 on the agenda -- and I go to the substance of the meeting

25 where this was discussed was -- if you go on to where the particular items

Page 24467

1 are discussed and find item 10, it's a two-paragraph minute. It's in

2 relation to exchange of prisoners of war.

3 "The government has considered the proposed report. It's been

4 concluded that the issue of prisoners exchange is extremely important,

5 complex, and delicate, and that if sufficient attention is not paid to it,

6 it can cause a number of negative consequences for the whole republic. It

7 has been agreed that a working group consisting of," and it's Mr. Djeric,

8 Trbojevic, Kalinic, Stanisic, Subotic, and Mandic, "should consider all

9 aspects of the prisoner exchange problem."

10 I'll stop there, Mr. Krajisnik. The -- at this point, in the

11 middle of June, 1992, apart from any individual cases that might have been

12 brought to your attention by people you knew, I'm not talking about those,

13 but apart from any such cases were you personally involved in the prisoner

14 exchange problem, as it's referred to here?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Then item 11, the second paragraph, second sentence, we can go --

17 jump straight to that. It says: "On more than one occasion the

18 government has pointed out the," I think the word "need" must be missing

19 from the English, "the need to have a joint meeting of the Presidency of

20 SR BiH, SR BiH National Assembly, and SR BiH government. At such meeting,

21 the position, role, rights, and obligations of all republic-established

22 state bodies established by the constitution and law would be thoroughly

23 and critically considered."

24 So far as you can tell, Mr. Krajisnik, was what was contemplated

25 there a meeting of the Presidency, the whole of the Assembly, and the

Page 24468

1 government?

2 A. Well, Mr. Djeric is a legalist. He's a university professor, and

3 I remember that both he and I very often asked to have powers strictly set

4 so that the organisation of the Presidency would be right. This is a very

5 good example that shows that there are three organs, the Presidency, the

6 government, and the Assembly, and that there is no expanded Presidency, as

7 was referred to here. Because had there been an expanded Presidency, then

8 Mr. Djeric would say: We concluded at the expanded Presidency

9 such-and-such-and-such a thing. On the other hand, he is not informed

10 about what the Presidency is doing, except that he sometimes attends

11 consultative meetings, just like I do. This shows the necessity of the

12 government to have this kind of joint meeting of the government, the

13 Presidency, and of the president of the Assembly, that we meet up, that we

14 exchange views, and that the ministers themselves receive proper

15 information because he believes that the government is not fully informed

16 about some matters. He wasn't right on that, because as far as I know the

17 Presidency didn't know anything more than that either, and I in particular

18 didn't know more than Mr. Djeric knew or more than the government knew, I

19 mean by way of new information, that is.

20 Q. Yes, that -- that doesn't quite deal with the point,

21 Mr. Krajisnik, as to whether what had been contemplated here was a meeting

22 which would include all the members of the Assembly. If you don't know,

23 Mr. Krajisnik, that is -- I believe the Trial Chamber would consider an

24 appropriate answer to give, if you simply don't know.

25 A. No, no. What is meant here -- well, the president of the Assembly

Page 24469

1 because it doesn't say: Let's have a meeting of the Assembly. It says

2 here that the Presidency has several members, the Assembly has several

3 members, whereas the president of the Assembly is a single person. And by

4 way of inertia somebody said that this was a joint meeting of all three

5 where there would be a comprehensive view of and so on and so forth. I

6 know that this kind of meeting was held, indeed, that we had discussions.

7 Truth to tell, the representatives of the Main Staff were there, too, and

8 we received information from them.

9 Q. Then, Mr. Krajisnik, I've finished with that particular meeting or

10 minute. There was a meeting of the Presidency on the 16th of June then,

11 just a note, the 7th Session, but I'm not -- I don't propose to ask you

12 any questions about that particular meeting. And to go then to the 29th

13 meeting of the government, which is -- was held on the 16th of June, and

14 that's P64A, binder 25, tab 675, and the ERN is 01245376. And I want to

15 ask you about item 11 -- not item 11 just as listed in the agenda, but

16 item 11 when we get into the part of the meeting which is a few pages on.

17 Do you see the heading, item 11?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Second paragraph -- third paragraph, I beg your pardon. Third

20 paragraph: "It was decided to prepare urgently platforms for meetings

21 with the army, the Presidency, and with the president of the Assembly."

22 Mr. Krajisnik, do-- was such a meeting or were such meetings held,

23 do you recall?

24 A. I remember one meeting that was held when the government asked for

25 this, to have a meeting between the president of the Assembly, the

Page 24470

1 Presidency, and the full cabinet of the government, that is, in order to

2 get comprehensive information on the basis of the conclusions reached by

3 the previous government session, that is to say the Main Staff was

4 involved, too, because the government thought that the Presidency and the

5 president of the Assembly knew of it more than they did. And they were

6 interested in what the Main Staff had to say as well because, after all,

7 this was a fundamental issue, how the armed conflict was conducted. So

8 from the point of view of logistics, the government was supposed to be

9 there for the army and it was not sufficiently informed.

10 You can see here, as well, that there are three separate organs

11 and that they clearly highlight that they should meet, not with the

12 expanded Presidency, but with the Presidency, government, and president of

13 the Assembly.

14 Q. And then -- that's all I want to ask you about that meeting,

15 Mr. Krajisnik. Then if we go to what was the next Presidency session,

16 that was on the 17th of June and that is the 8th Session of the

17 Presidency. It's P64A, bundle 26, or binder 26, tab 775, alternatively

18 P65, binder 12, tab 165.

19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20 Q. You've got that, Mr. Krajisnik, the 8th Session. The -- a couple

21 of paragraphs after the names listed: "The Presidency was briefed on the

22 situation on the front, particularly in Ilijas and Hadzici, where enemy

23 forces viciously attacked our army positions the day before and once

24 again, as many times before violated the truce."

25 And then the following decisions were adopted. And then a public

Page 24471

1 announcement number 2 -- I'm sorry, number 1: "The government drafted a

2 decision to proclaim St. Vitus Day the army's saint's patron's day,"

3 that's the 28th of June, isn't it, Mr. Krajisnik, St. Vitus Day?

4 A. Yes, yes, you're quite right.

5 Q. And we come on to it at a later meeting, but do you recall that

6 arrangements were made for various people to attend various places on

7 St. Vitus Day?

8 A. Yes, yes, that was agreed upon. Now, was it at this meeting or

9 some other meeting, I don't know, but it was agreed upon.

10 Q. The -- and then on this particular session there was to be number

11 4: "A proposal was made to reconstruct the government. Minister of

12 National Defence President Karadzic shall conduct talks on the assignment

13 of the ministers of defence to other duties."

14 Were you involved in those talks or such talks?

15 A. No, I wasn't. This was between the Main Staff and Mr. Karadzic

16 and the government. That's where this problem was being resolved. I

17 followed matters, though, and I knew what the reason was why that had been

18 done.

19 Q. The -- and then item 7: "There were two delegations concluded to

20 be formed to visit -- one to Eastern Herzegovina and one to Bijeljina."

21 The one to Eastern Herzegovina comprised six people, including yourself,

22 you're the second one mentioned there, with Dr. Karadzic. Did that happen

23 that there was a delegation and you did go?

24 A. At the same time, perhaps on the same day, the government

25 established similar delegations. Now, I don't know whether these were the

Page 24472

1 people who actually went out, but this was the initiative of Mr. Djeric at

2 that meeting, where he said that he had set up these commissions,

3 delegations of the government, that would tour the area. We didn't go to

4 Eastern Herzegovina, no. Trbojevic, Djuric, Kalinic, Novakovic, no. This

5 is a reference to an MP. This kind of delegation, no. I did not visit

6 Eastern Herzegovina with this kind of delegation. Perhaps it was a

7 different group of people, and I don't know whether I was in Eastern

8 Herzegovina at the time. I am not precluding the possibility of having

9 been in Eastern Herzegovina, but not with these people.

10 Q. And after these two delegations have been listed here, the six

11 names for Bijeljina, it says: "The Presidency decided to visit Krajina

12 the following week and hold there a session of the Assembly of the Serbian

13 People."

14 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, you have been able to see there wasn't a

15 session of the Assembly the following week. Did -- did you visit

16 Krajina -- well, I'm sorry. A different question.

17 Did the Presidency visit Krajina the following week?

18 A. I don't know whether anybody paid any individual visits, but I did

19 not go to Krajina and I doubt that anyone could have gone to Krajina this

20 time because, as I said a while ago, it was on the 11th of July that Mr.

21 Djeric was there, after St. Vitus Day, after the corridor had been

22 established. So I don't know whether anybody could have gone at this

23 period of time. They -- there would have been an Assembly meeting held

24 there had that been possible, but the Assembly meeting was held only

25 towards the end of July and at Jahorina for that matter, the republican

Page 24473

1 Assembly towards the end of July held in Jahorina.

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I wonder could you be given, please, the minutes

3 for the 30th government meeting, which was on the 17th of June, and that's

4 P65, binder 12, tab 166, it's also found at P583, ERN 01245382. The -- at

5 that meeting, there was an assignment of various people to working groups.

6 It's towards the very end of the minutes. There are two lists, one of six

7 names, one of five names. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes, yes, yes. I see it. That's what I meant when I was speaking

9 a few moments ago. I just didn't know that this was the date, yes.

10 Q. And that -- the -- they were work visits to be done in regions,

11 that's what it records, and people assigned to work groups were, and then

12 listed and so on. Did -- was there any report back to -- to you, first of

13 all, you individually about the work of those groups?

14 A. No, no. I didn't even know about this visit. Perhaps it was at

15 this consultative meeting at the Presidency that Mr. Djeric said that he

16 would go, but after that I don't know and no one submitted any reports to

17 me.

18 Q. And then just slightly earlier on in this meeting the government

19 passed a number of decisions and they're listed, 13 names, on appointing

20 members to judiciary organs. Did you have any involvement at all in the

21 selection and appointment of those 13 people?

22 A. No, I did not take part in any of these selections or

23 appointments, and I didn't know anything about this. This had to be done

24 by the Ministry of Justice, and this wasn't much choice, was there. So

25 whoever they found they proposed to the government.

Page 24474

1 Q. And then could we go to the 11th Session on -- there are some

2 intermediate sessions, but I have no questions on those. The 11th Session

3 of the Presidency, and the 11th Session was held on the 25th of June.

4 That's P65, binder 12, tab 169. The ERN is 00814294. You have that?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. And then the -- it's item 3 I'm looking at, and 3(D) towards the

7 very end, that: "Working bodies of the Presidency be set up at the

8 following session and that authority and responsibilities be precisely

9 divided among the members of the Presidency."

10 Did you receive any responsibilities as a result of any such

11 division?

12 A. This is what I mentioned. Very often Mr. Djeric and I suggested

13 to members of the Presidency that they have to be constituted properly,

14 that they have to have working bodies the way a collective organ is

15 supposed to operate. I see here that Mr. Karadzic signed this, although

16 he was not present. We probably suggested to him that this be done.

17 Perhaps he did it, too, because he was also a great legalist and I think

18 he was right. I could not have been given this kind of assignment and

19 this did not pertain to the president of the Assembly. It pertained to

20 the three of them so that everyone would know who did what. If you don't

21 have any further questions, I would like to make a few comments with

22 regard to the previous text before this particular point because I have

23 some comments and suggestions that would be very useful.

24 Q. Well, I do have further questions, but not on this particular

25 document, Mr. Krajisnik. So which are the specific points to which you

Page 24475

1 wished to draw attention?

2 A. You see, AD2, it was concluded that on the basis of the conclusion

3 of the municipal assembly of Pale in relation to Zepa to raise the

4 question of responsibility and a request was sent to the Main Staff of the

5 army to carry out a thorough investigation.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they do not have this

7 text.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to say that on that day, I

9 think it was precisely that day, Mr. Koljevic at the initiative of --


11 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Krajisnik, can I help the interpreters.

12 MR. STEWART: Is it not in the same document, just further up as

13 item 2?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately the interprets do not have that

15 particular date, but that's what was read out.

16 MR. STEWART: It's the same document we were looking at, the 11th

17 Session of the Presidency, 25th of June.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 MR. STEWART: We looked at 3 (D) and it's item 2, just further up

20 the page.

21 I'm sorry. I hope Your Honours don't mind me communicating to the

22 interpreters. I'm trying to help them.

23 JUDGE ORIE: No problem.


25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik I'm sorry, you -- I interrupted you.

Page 24476

1 A. No, no, no problem whatsoever.

2 As for the case at Zepa when over 60 people got killed and 45,

3 approximately, of these people were from Pale, this caused a major revolt

4 among the citizens. There was a big funeral that was held. At that time

5 all the Muslims were in Pale, and then from that funeral somebody called

6 Sarajevo and said that soldiers came. And then the Muslim armed forces

7 attacked Pale, and then soldiers were running from the funeral by the

8 church to the front line and five or six people got killed there, too.

9 Now, Mrs. Plavsic was the one who was charged with -- who was in charge of

10 talking to the widows of these men who got killed. Then there was this

11 municipal initiative from the SDS board, that Mr. Koljevic should appoint

12 Mrs. Plavsic the president of the commissioner's office for Pale. And on

13 that day he appointed her head of that organ and also the other people

14 that they had suggested. It was her duty to resolve the question of Zepa,

15 and it was precisely at that time that the Muslims moved out. The Main

16 Staff was held responsible here and the minister of defence was also

17 involved. Mr. Karadzic was not there, but we were discussing these

18 complaints that came in from the municipality and we were raising the

19 question of accountability. Mr. Koljevic provided that. You have that in

20 that notebook that I gave you last time in relation to Pale. Mr. Koljevic

21 signed this decision pertaining to Mrs. Plavsic and the members of the

22 commissioner's office in Pale on that day.

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then can we move on to the 12th Session of the

24 Presidency and was held on the 27th of June, P64A, binder 26, tab 774, or

25 P65, binder 12, tab 171, ERN 00814292.

Page 24477

1 A. Yes, I've found it. I have it before me.

2 Q. We see Dr. Karadzic didn't attend on this particular occasion,

3 according to these -- this minute. And then 1 (A) (B) (C) we see an

4 allocation of delegates to represent the state and political leadership at

5 the celebration, and you're listed as -- under (B) for Ilijas, Momcilo

6 Krajisnik. Mr. Krajisnik, I wonder, could you be given the exhibit which

7 is P529, binder 5, tab 195.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, Mr. Stewart, may I ask one

9 question, Mr. Krajisnik, one question in relation to your last answer.

10 You were talking about this -- let me just find it -- you talked about 60

11 people that got killed at Zepa. It's not entirely clear to me, were these

12 Muslims being killed, Serbs?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs. Serbs, who were killed, and

14 40 of them or over of them were from Pale. There were some from Sokolac,

15 et cetera. And there was the burial and funeral service in front of the

16 church.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Were they killed in combat or otherwise?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. They set out towards Veliki

19 Zep to take food to the soldiers. There was no fighting, and they had

20 reached an agreement with the Muslim side, but nevertheless they waylaid

21 them in an ambush and killed them all and one of the witnesses who were

22 supposed to come here was a member of the group who was otherwise killed.

23 He, himself, survived.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies the issue for me.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

Page 24478


2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I -- you've just been handed a document which

3 should say at the top "29/06/92" and have a reference to Ilijas Radio or

4 Radio Ilijas. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes, I have read this document. I know about it. I have had it

6 in front of me.

7 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, rather than me read what's 20 or 30 lines, is

8 it -- as far as you're concerned, is it an accurate report of events on

9 that occasion?

10 A. The qualifications given in the information about the Crisis

11 Staffs that here Momcilo Krajisnik contacted the Crisis Staffs is wrong,

12 that is incorrect. You see, I was in charge of attending the ceremony in

13 a municipality which is close to my own municipality, in Ilijas. This is

14 from the Presidency meeting, and I was there. Mr. Koljevic was supposed

15 to be there as well but he wasn't, and I'll tell you why he wasn't. I was

16 in Ilijas, and after that I went to have a cup of coffee in the office

17 with the people who were in the civilian leadership, which was the Crisis

18 Staff. So the only contacts I had was that -- were that. Here it says he

19 visited the Crisis Staff and informed himself -- well, that was the way

20 this person on the radio conveyed this because he wants to make a

21 news item. He can't say when to have a cup of coffee.

22 Now, let me tell you why Mr. Koljevic wasn't there. On the 28th

23 of July, at the airport and in Lukavica, an agreement was signed to hand

24 over the airport. And Mr. Karadzic was there and so was Mr. Koljevic. And

25 on that occasion a day before or that particular day, the president of

Page 24479

1 France, Mr. Mitterand, landed there, that's how I knew they were there,

2 whereas I was in Ilijas. I have the SRNA information bulletin to back up

3 what I'm saying, if you need to have it. Let me just say when I was in

4 Ilijas I sat with them for ten minutes at the most because there was an

5 artillery attack on Visoko from Ilijas and they all had to rush up to the

6 front. I returned to Rajlovac and Pale myself.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to just read you -- it's a sentence

8 or two sentences from the Prosecution pre-trial brief in this case, and

9 it's paragraph 90?

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I hadn't thought it necessary to have

11 everybody dig out this document for the sake of about three lines.

12 Q. It says: "As members of the Presidency, both Krajisnik and

13 Plavsic visited Crisis Staffs and received reports from them on the

14 situation in the municipalities."

15 And then in a footnote there is a reference to: "Krajisnik led a

16 delegation of the Republika Srpska Presidency and the VRS to the Ilijas

17 Crisis Staff on the 28th of June, 1992."

18 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, would -- would you say you were

19 there, that to describe you as having led a delegation of the Presidency

20 and the VRS to the Ilijas Crisis Staff was an apt description of what

21 occurred?

22 A. Well, he was under misapprehension, the person that wrote this,

23 it's not correct. You see, Nikola Koljevic and I were supposed to go to

24 Ilijas. He wasn't there; I was there. Now, whether I was there to attend

25 the local ceremony of the saint day in the neighbouring municipality to

Page 24480

1 mine. The central ceremony was held at Sokolac, and Mrs. Plavsic was

2 there and Mr. Karadzic was supposed to arrive, but whether he did or not I

3 don't know, probably he did. As I say, I didn't visit the Crisis Staff,

4 nor could I sit together with them because of the bombing. I don't know

5 whether we were there for maybe ten minutes to have a cup of coffee after

6 the saint day ceremonies. I just went by, stopped by, to say, "Hi guys,"

7 and that was all. I didn't even stay to lunch, as I say, because of the

8 bombing at Ilijas.

9 Q. That's -- that was the footnote, Mr. Krajisnik. And then that bit

10 of the text that I was going to ask you about, that: "As members of the

11 Presidency, both Krajisnik and Plavsic visited Crisis Staffs and received

12 reports from them on the situation in the municipalities."

13 If we take it for the purposes of my question that this is applied

14 to the whole of 1992, so my question relates to that, what comment do you

15 have on the assertion that you visited Crisis Staffs and received reports

16 from them on the situation in the municipalities?

17 A. I did not receive reports. I might have gone somewhere on some

18 rare occasion, but I didn't go to visit the Crisis Staffs and I did not

19 have any contact with them. They worked independently. If I did happen

20 to be in some municipality, what might have happened was that we had an

21 Assembly there and then met the leadership. I am one of the few people,

22 because of my family problems, who did not visit Republika Srpska. Other

23 people toured Republika Srpska because someone from the leadership had to

24 be seen to visit the area, if that was possible. So my answer was that I

25 was in Pale, and why I was in Pale and why I attended the Assembly

Page 24481

1 meetings was that I linked -- was linked to Pale and the work of the

2 Assembly. So the conclusions on the basis of those observations were

3 wrong, I did not visit them.

4 Mrs. Plavsic did tour and visit the Republika Srpska, but I think

5 she went to tour it. Her aim wasn't to visit the Crisis Staffs; she just

6 went to gain as much information as possible. She would very often go

7 unannounced because, quite simply, she wanted to keep abreast of the

8 situation. But I don't know where she went or what she did there. And

9 she did not inform me once she returned.

10 Q. It's clear, Mr. Krajisnik, that Mrs. Plavsic was a member of the

11 Presidency, and that's not in issue. But if we take that assertion in

12 relation to Mrs. Plavsic, "as a member of the Presidency, Mrs. Plavsic

13 visited Crisis Staffs and received reports from them on the situation in

14 the municipalities."

15 Overall, is that a fair description of Mrs. Plavsic's activities?

16 A. No, it is not a fair description, but there is a report of the

17 Pale War Presidency, which I attached and handed over to you, where they

18 were informed of certain problems because she was the president of that

19 Presidency or, rather, the commissioner's office of Pale. But I don't

20 know that she received any other separate reports. On the contrary, I

21 don't think she did. That was not her function. Her function was to

22 visit the area and, as a Presidency member, quite simply she liked to pay

23 a visit to the front and the soldiers to see what their situation up there

24 was like.

25 Q. And then, Mr. Krajisnik, if we can go to the Presidency session

Page 24482

1 that was held on the 3rd of July. That's the 14th Session --

2 A. I do apologise, Mr. Stewart, but may I just say something? Your

3 predecessor gave the task of interviewing the Crisis Staffs, and you have

4 a great deal of reports showing that the Crisis Staffs worked autonomously

5 and made independent decisions without informing anybody, and that

6 included Mrs. Plavsic, particularly not me. I do apologise for having to

7 add that.

8 Q. So, Mr. Krajisnik, as I was saying, the 14th Session which is

9 P64A, binder 28, tab 809, and also to be found at P655, binder 12, tab

10 172, ERN 00837970. That was recorded as attended by the five, Karadzic,

11 Plavsic -- I beg your pardon, Karadzic, Plavsic, Koljevic, and Krajisnik.

12 Mr. Djeric is not shown present at that meeting. And then: "After

13 discussion the Presidency adopted a stand for talks between the delegation

14 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Lord Carrington and

15 Mr. Cutileiro regarding the resumption of the conference on Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina."

17 Mr. Krajisnik, was the -- were the Cutileiro talks at all active

18 or were they really completely in the doldrums at that time?

19 A. I don't think so. I think that the communications did exist and

20 they were very weak and we insisted here on the continuation of the

21 conference, which existed, in the desire to do the work we had agreed

22 upon, to have Bosnia transformed and a proper solution to the crisis

23 found.

24 Q. And then item 2 -- it says, "The Presidency adopted the following

25 decisions and conclusions."

Page 24483

1 Item 2: "The Presidency issued an order to the MUP, Ministry of

2 the Interior, of the Serbian Republic of BH to conduct an investigation

3 into the activities of paramilitary units on the territory of Gacko and

4 Nevesinje municipalities. It was said at the session that the Presidency

5 was receiving reliable reports that groups on that territory which were

6 not under the command of the army or the police were terrorising and

7 taking vengeance on the civilian population. The MUP was, therefore,

8 given the task of investigating and preventing the activities of these

9 independent groups."

10 Do you -- do you recall where these, described as reliable,

11 reports came from?

12 A. It says: "Unconfirmed information." All this is lacking here is

13 the "un," unconfirmed. Now I can answer that.

14 Q. Oh, I see, well that's quite an important correction then, isn't

15 it? Is that -- in that paragraph you're saying it was said -- can you

16 just make absolutely sure we get it right. Can you read the first

17 sentence of the second paragraph under item 2, the one that starts: "It

18 was said at the session ..." Can you just read it out, Mr. Krajisnik.

19 A. "It was said at the session that the Presidency, whilst receiving

20 unreliable reports or unconfirmed reports that groups on that territory

21 which were not under the command of the army or the police were

22 terrorising and taking vengeance against the civilian population. The MUP

23 was, therefore, given the task of investigating and preventing the

24 activities of these independent groups."

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

Page 24484

1 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be quite important, Mr. Stewart.

2 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have the original on the ELMO so we check

4 with the original. There is of course no doubt, but the Chamber seeks

5 confirmation of the original to reflect this so there are no mistakes, and

6 then, of course, the next question would be how many versions there are of

7 this document.

8 MR. STEWART: That's always the question, Your Honour. The

9 question I was going to ask, with Your Honour's permission, to the

10 interpreters, was whether they would in fact plump for unreliable or

11 unconfirmed because both possibilities were --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's how it was translated.

13 Could I invite the interpreters to look at the text that now

14 appears on the ELMO, to look at the second part of --


16 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether the original confirms that the translation,

17 as we receive it on ERN number, last four digits, 7970 is not correct

18 where it says "was receiving reliable reports."

19 THE INTERPRETER: The word is "neprovjerene," unconfirmed.

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


23 Q. Anyway, that was the --

24 A. Just a moment. Have we accepted "unconfirmed"?

25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, yes, clearly we have and you seem content --

Page 24485

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- in order to avoid whatever problems at a

2 later stage, could we have a corrected translation here? I'd rather not

3 correct it myself, such a vital issue. I'll do it on my copy, but at

4 least that Mr. Registrar has one --

5 MR. STEWART: There seems to be -- I'm sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.

7 MR. STEWART: It seems to be true -- there are I am told from

8 behind from Mr. Josse, there are two translations it seems --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse is nodding no.

10 MR. TIEGER: Highly --

11 MR. STEWART: He's nodding no, is he? Ha.

12 MR. TIEGER: I was going to say it's rather unlikely since this is

13 a CLSS translation that, I believe, was provided very early in the

14 process.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please take care, Mr. Tieger, where

16 there are -- I don't know whether there are different sources for the same

17 document, that -- but wherever it appears that Mr. Registrar is provided

18 with a correct translation. Because if we start -- if we start correcting

19 ourselves in the originals, that on such a vital matter. Yes.

20 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, it had been thought that there

21 might be a second version of the minutes that caused the confusion, so

22 that's all sorted as far as the number of translations is concerned.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, it's a translation -- it's a mistake. Of

24 course it doesn't say that the unconfirmed reports are, for that reason,

25 correct -- uncorrect. That's a matter still to be considered.

Page 24486

1 MR. STEWART: Yes, absolutely, Your Honour.

2 Of course, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sorry, Mr. Stewart. I just

4 wanted to know from you whether Mr. Krajisnik remembered where -- what

5 these unconfirmed reports were? Does he remember this being discussed and

6 does he remember who wrote these kind of reports and whether this issue

7 was discussed, the fact that these were unconfirmed reports? Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very often I attended meetings of

9 this kind, that is to say consultative Presidency meetings, and it

10 says "Presidency" here, at which unconfirmed information arrived, which

11 was worrying. And then a commission would be sent out and somebody put in

12 charge of checking the information out to establish the truth and then to

13 come back to the Presidency so they could decide what information -- what

14 steps should be taken. Here it says "unconfirmed information" because

15 there was a delegation that had talked to Herzegovina, perhaps, and you

16 can see that on the basis of other items and received information about

17 that. I know what this was about. There was a unit that was called

18 Karadjordje, we learned that later on, and people went around in a rather

19 arbitrary fashion. They wanted to be something apart from the army and

20 apart from the command, and the commander of that unit died soon

21 afterwards and the situation was dealt in that way, unfortunately, through

22 his death. But what we're talking about here is unconfirmed information

23 which, unfortunately, later on were quite close to the truth that

24 something like that was actually going on when the MUP had checked it out,

25 once the MUP had checked it out.

Page 24487

1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, I was asking you

2 who provided this kind of report?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this, you know. The

4 meeting here with four or five people, there were always other people

5 attending such meetings which were not recorded in the minutes. And I

6 assume that this other person not recorded here said that the situation

7 was such-and-such, and then we would put somebody in charge of checking it

8 out. I know there were never just four people attending meetings of this

9 kind; there would be other people present but their names were not

10 recorded in the minutes of the meeting.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [No interpretation]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question to -- since you have a

13 clear recollection of the issue, you told us what it was. Do you remember

14 who then reported this?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, very often --

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Krajisnik. Do you know who

17 did it? If you don't know, please tell us you don't know. Not what often

18 happened --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can take a guess. The

20 vice-president of the Assembly was Branko Simic. Quite possibly he had

21 received some information from someone from Herzegovina because the whole

22 subject matter was linked to Herzegovina, it had to do with Herzegovina.

23 So I don't know who it was, but possibly that was how it came about. And

24 this man, he was from Herzegovina, Branko Simic. I'm trying to remember

25 as much as possible, but I don't want to engage in guesswork, of course,

Page 24488

1 and say things I don't exactly know.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not inviting you to do so.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, may I hand to you, because I've got a copy ready

6 for you --

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's an exhibit -- it's already in

8 evidence. It's P64A, binder 28, tab 810, and Mr. Sladojevic has handed to

9 me as I speak lots of copies in English of that document, certainly enough

10 that -- that's the B/C/S for Mr. Krajisnik - certainly enough English

11 copies for anybody who could conceivably be interested.

12 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you see this is dated the 3rd of July. "Order

13 to conduct an investigation into paramilitary group activities in the area

14 of the Gacko-Nevesinje municipalities. Ministry of the Interior is hereby

15 ordered to conduct an investigation into paramilitary group activities

16 into specified areas. And after the investigation is complete, the

17 ministry shall submit an exhaustive report to the Presidency on the

18 established state of facts in the area on the two municipalities."

19 Do you remember if such an exhaustive report was actually

20 produced?

21 A. I do not remember the report, but I probably heard from the

22 vice-president of the Assembly about all of this, what I referred to a few

23 moments ago. I don't remember this order, though, because it was after

24 the meeting that the order was written; Mr. Karadzic wrote it. It wasn't

25 that the order was passed by that session. It was simply concluded that

Page 24489

1 that should be done.

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when -- the description in the minute is of

3 unconfirmed reports --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just --

5 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you say -- let me just check. You

7 said: "It wasn't that the order was passed by that session. It was

8 simply concluded that that should be done."

9 Now, if I read the order it says that "the Presidency adopted at

10 its session on the 3rd of July the following." I have -- could you assist

11 me in reconciling your testimony in that decision that such a thing should

12 happen and it was not decided in that session with the text of this order,

13 which, at least in English, says clearly that this -- this order was

14 adopted at its session, which suggests at least, unless I misunderstand

15 the English language in this respect, that it was done during this

16 session.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have interpreted this perfectly.

18 You saw that Mr. Karadzic was not present at the session of the 3rd of

19 July, and he was the one who signed the order. And he signed the order

20 relying on some document, and that is to say the session that he did not

21 attend. He signed it and he said in relation to that session. He could

22 have said that the order was passed I don't know how, but at any rate it

23 would not be the same without his signature there. Had he been there, it

24 would have been different, but then he signed it later, however relying on

25 the record of the meeting that referred to what was to be investigated.

Page 24490

1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the minutes of the 3rd of July say that he was

2 present. Now, your answer very much relies on -- that he was not present,

3 but that's not what the minutes say.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should have a look.

5 Perhaps I made a mistake. Perhaps I made a mistake. If I made a mistake,

6 I do apologise, but could I please have a look at the 3rd of July.

7 Please? The record?

8 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I had drawn to Mr. Krajisnik's

9 attention that very obviously Mr. Djeric doesn't appear as present, but

10 the 3rd of July, yes --

11 Q. Well, you had it a few minutes ago, Mr. Krajisnik, it was the

12 14th --

13 MR. STEWART: Thank you very much, thank you.

14 Q. -- The 14th Session -- sorry, I thought you still had it in front

15 of you, Mr. Krajisnik. You see, 14th Session of the Presidency you have,

16 attended by Dr. Karadzic, as His Honour correctly points out. Plavsic --

17 A. Yes, yes, I'm sorry. This is what I wanted to say and I made a

18 mistake. In the text it says: It was established at the session that

19 unconfirmed reports are being received and so on and so forth in respect

20 to the civilian population, so I got this confused with the order. And

21 then on the basis of this Mr. Karadzic wrote the order, that this should

22 actually be done. Please have a look. So the Presidency is issuing an

23 order to the MUP here because this has been established.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The matter --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I created a bit of confusion, didn't

Page 24491

1 I? I'm so sorry.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The matter is clear now.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise for creating this

6 confusion, because there were records where he had not been present and

7 then he did things subsequently. Please, I do apologise.


9 Q. Was the -- when there was paperwork to be done by way of formal

10 orders, as we see here, was that paperwork generally done during the

11 meeting? Before or after the meeting? What -- was there a practice?

12 A. Well, not during the session, so it could have been only later,

13 and it was done in the office of Mr. Karadzic. There were some orders

14 that were made that never appeared before the Presidency. He had the

15 right to do that. He worked autonomously, and there is nothing wrong with

16 that method of work. There was no typing at the session itself, and he

17 did not sign documents at the sessions either.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in the minute, the item under discussion, those

19 unconfirmed reports, were that groups were "terrorising and taking

20 vengeance on the civilian population."

21 What was the -- what was the nature of the activities that were

22 being reported, albeit unconfirmed, as being done by these groups?

23 A. As far as I can remember, it mostly had to do with wilful

24 behaviour, not recognising the army. They terrorised all equally, Muslims

25 or Serbs. I don't know. Quite simply, they behaved willfully, that was

Page 24492

1 the kind of information that was received, if I can put it that way. And

2 Serbs complained, Serbs who lived there, that, quite simply, they were a

3 foreign body that respected no one. And since people were complaining,

4 they were certainly bothering the Serbs and the Muslims, too, I'm sure. I

5 cannot pin-point this exactly, but I remember that there were these

6 complaints, this Vojvoda Radovic, I remember that person. He was a good

7 soldier, but he tended to behave willfully and he ultimately got killed.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, what I'm inviting you to do is give the Trial

9 Chamber a picture of what was the degree of terrorisation or taking

10 vengeance.

11 A. I don't know what the degree was, but even when there was mention

12 of similar activities, criminal activity, not to say crimes, whenever I

13 was present on such occasions somebody would invariably be given the

14 assignment to investigate this and to have all measures taken by the

15 judiciary and the MUP and to have the perpetrators punished, absolutely.

16 You can find that in each and every record. I never attended a meeting

17 where there were unconfirmed reports of this kind and when a conclusion

18 was not reached to look into the matter and to punish the perpetrators.

19 That's what the government did, too. These people were not friends of the

20 Serbs; they were friends of themselves and of illegal activities. And

21 this was the response even to minor offences, let alone large-scale

22 activities. I do not remember a single meeting where this would be

23 mentioned and where appropriate measures would not be taken.

24 Q. In this particular instance, did the terrorisation and taking

25 vengeance that was being reported in an unconfirmed way include killings?

Page 24493

1 A. In war, vengeance can be suicide. What is vengeance? If somebody

2 gets killed, then one takes revenge. This is my free interpretation.

3 Terror is torture over certain individuals; that was the vocabulary that

4 was used. Possibly it was different, but I am saying how these two words

5 were interpreted most of the time.

6 MR. STEWART: Excuse me a moment, Your Honour.

7 [Defence counsel confer].

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's suggested that the -- that the --

9 the Serbian word might not have been appropriately interpreted

10 as "suicide." That's the suggestion I get from Mr. Sladojevic. Obviously

11 I don't know, Your Honour; I only see the English.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check.

13 MR. STEWART: It's the very beginning of that answer. It's line

14 22, Your Honour, page 68, line 22.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.

16 Could you please repeat your answer, Mr. Krajisnik. You

17 said: "In war, vengeance can be" what?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vengeance can be revenge on account

19 of a killing. Somebody is killed, so by way of retaliation there is

20 revenge that involves killing.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we must have misheard. We

22 apologise.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The matter has been clarified.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART: Yes.

Page 24494

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, not confining this question to meetings of the

2 Presidency or any other group that you attended, did you at any time turn

3 a blind eye to reports that had any credibility that there was

4 terrorisation or violent vengeance by Serbs against members of any other

5 ethnic group?

6 A. Never. I can give several individual examples by way of

7 explanation, but I never heard any information of this kind. If I had

8 heard any such thing, I would have asked for an investigation. And I must

9 say that at all meetings people shared my view. I'm not trying to say

10 that it was only my view. There were such cases when we received this

11 kind of information or misinformation, but an investigation would be

12 carried out.

13 Q. In the same minute, Mr. Krajisnik - I hope you still have it in

14 front of you - the 14th Session, 3rd of July, item 7 says that: "It was

15 concluded that responsible organs shall urgently take the harshest

16 measures against the perpetrators of criminal offences and persons

17 spreading disinformation and panic among the population."

18 Mr. Krajisnik, did that reflect some particular incident or

19 outbreak of incidents at that time?

20 A. This reflects a phenomenon. Perhaps there was a specific case or

21 particular incident, but information was being received. There are two

22 matters at stake here. Information was coming in to the effect that there

23 was a high degree of probability of a crime having been committed, and it

24 says here that all the perpetrators of such crimes have to be punished.

25 But also there was intentional misinformation that was spread

Page 24495

1 intentionally by some people or, perhaps, without checking this out. And

2 this caused panic among the population. So these are the two things that

3 are referred to here, that misinformation should be prevented and that

4 culprits should be punished. So these are two types of impermissible

5 activity, if I can put it that way.

6 Q. And then item 12 records that: "It was concluded that

7 Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Pejanovic, Mr. Simic, and Mr. Nikolic, and other Serbs

8 should be invited to withdraw from their positions as official bodies in

9 BH or to publicly renounce their role as representatives of the Serbian

10 people in these organs."

11 Was that a decision which you unequivocally supported?

12 A. Yes. I supported it, although this was not my own initiative,

13 because different information and misinformation was coming in regarding

14 the difficult position of the Serbs in Sarajevo. Formally they were in

15 government in Sarajevo, but they could not do anything for the Serb

16 people. And then a false picture was being created that there was a

17 multi-ethnic government. Some people were there simply to be in high

18 office and others because they couldn't get out. They represented

19 themselves as Serbs, but in actual fact they were Serbs by birth but they

20 only took care of themselves. I have to say the truth, and I, therefore,

21 have to say that they did try to help many people, many Serbs in Sarajevo.

22 I was informed about that. But their possibilities were highly limited,

23 and we wanted this false multi-ethnicity to be unmasked here because it

24 was not essentially there. There was no substance to it. Actually, let

25 me just add one more thing. Mr. Kecmanovic said publicly: "I am a Serb

Page 24496

1 but I do not represent the Serbs." No problem with that because I do not

2 have a mandate to represent the Serbs, whereas they were saying that they

3 represented the Serb people, which was not true because they did not have

4 any rights. They were there only formally.

5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, then, I want to move on to the 15th Session of the

6 Presidency, which was held on the 6th of July. And that's P64A, binder

7 25, tab 726, alternatively P65, binder 12, tab -- I'm afraid it's either

8 177 or 174. It's 174. And the ERN is 00837958 --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could I ask one additional question

10 in relation to the previous issue.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, you said -- you were talking about the complaints

12 against, as you said, this Vojvoda Radovic. And you said: "and he

13 ultimately got killed." When was he killed, could you tell us?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's not that he was

15 assassinated, but he got killed in combat, at the front line. There is a

16 difference. It's not that somebody assassinated him. It's not that a

17 Serb killed him that way, but there were such clashes --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I was only asking when. Not how, but when.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know it was later, but I don't

20 know. I don't know. I just know that -- well, I don't know when he got

21 killed.

22 JUDGE ORIE: How -- I'm asking you because it more or less

23 suggested that the issue was resolved by Vojvoda Radovic had died.

24 Therefore, I'm asking when he died. Do you know how much later?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this problem was

Page 24497

1 resolved. An investigation was carried out, and the problem was resolved;

2 however, when I was talking about who the commander was, to the best of my

3 recollection, it was this man. And I said that he got killed. Perhaps

4 the problem was resolved. And it wasn't that his death solved the

5 problem, no, the authorities solved the problem. So perhaps it sort of

6 fitted in the wrong way that his death resolved the problem. I don't know

7 when he got killed. He got killed later, but the problem was certainly

8 resolved through an investigation. And there were no paramilitary units.

9 Maybe he got killed soon after that, I really don't know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the same Vojvoda Radovic as mentioned by

11 Mr. Seselj in this television -- I think it's television speech which is

12 P1090, or don't you remember that? It was a --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It was during the testimony of Mr. Poplasen that --

15 because then a Vojvoda Radovic on Podvelezje was mentioned. Is that the

16 same or is that a different person?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, since I knew his

18 brother, that's why I remember. I mean, I never met the man, I never saw

19 the man. Is it the same person, is it a different person, I really

20 don't know. My information is very poor, as far as his details are

21 concerned.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said earlier also that one would investigate

23 the matter and people would be prosecuted or punished, something of the

24 kind. Now, was this person who died later, was he -- was he punished, was

25 he arrested, or what happened to him, this Vojvoda Radovic?

Page 24498

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if this was properly

2 interpreted, this is a separate item on the agenda, and I was talking

3 within that item. I was saying that there are two questions here. I have

4 no knowledge as to what happened to this Vojvoda Radovic, whether he was

5 punished, whether he was not punished, whether an investigation was

6 carried out or not. I know nothing. However, I assume on the basis of

7 what I heard, if he was guilty he should have been punished or replaced

8 but I have no knowledge as to what actually happened to him. I don't even

9 know whether he was guilty. What I'm saying now is I know I remember a

10 name; I mentioned him. As for the details, I really know nothing about

11 what happened down there in Nevesinje and Gacko. I'm just saying what the

12 misinformation was I mean -- or rather, this information concerning his

13 wilful behaviour, that is.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed. By the way, we are close

15 to -- we are already very late, as a matter of fact.

16 MR. STEWART: May I mention two very quick points before the

17 break.


19 MR. STEWART: First of all, Your Honour, I decline to make

20 supplementary submissions earlier, and I'm not going to do that now,

21 Your Honour, in relation to those. But what I ask -- this, Your Honour,

22 that if Your Honours are proposing any answer or ingredient in

23 Your Honour's decision which it would only be fair to allow the Defence to

24 make submissions on, in other words, something that couldn't fairly be

25 anticipated and dealt with our application in advance, then we do

Page 24499

1 specifically request the opportunity to do that rather than find the point

2 for the first time in a Trial Chamber decision. That's point number one.

3 Point number two, Your Honour, is, may we see Mr. Krajisnik in

4 this break to discuss the procedural matter which he raised at the very

5 beginning of today's session? And we would, of course, be careful in the

6 usual way to steer clear of any content which relates to --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I think I already said that the matter

8 raised by Mr. Krajisnik, which we understood to be a request to consult

9 with you was that during one of the next breaks he could see you.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. We just wanted to be clear

11 that we had that green light on our side.


13 We'll adjourn until quarter past 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.22 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

17 MR. HARMON: Just before we begin, Your Honour, if I could put on

18 the record that we have provided to the registrar and copies to the

19 Defence of P605, P964, P981, P1021, and P1134. Thank you.


21 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, thank you for that opportunity. We

24 have clarified, we think, to a considerable extent --

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 24500

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart.

2 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, clarified to a considerable

3 extent, we hope, that what Mr. Krajisnik had in mind. It's nothing to do

4 with any unsworn statements or statements separate from his evidence; it's

5 nothing whatever to do with that, as it turns out. It stems from the

6 guidelines and the opportunity that Your Honour has given to Mr. Krajisnik

7 to cross-examine and also in relation to Defence witnesses to ask

8 questions himself, after due consultation with us.


10 MR. STEWART: And he notionally -- as he described this morning,

11 he notionally has in mind being able to ask such questions with himself as

12 the witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Which comes down more or less to adding anything he

14 think is of importance to add to his testimony?

15 MR. STEWART: Well, it does, Your Honour. We had suggested to

16 Mr. Krajisnik, and we steered clear, of course, of specific points,

17 Your Honour, but as a scheme we had suggested to Mr. Krajisnik that it

18 might be helpful if he were to prepare his own note or list of such topics

19 or such matters that he felt at the end of his examination -- conventional

20 examination-in-chief, I hope it's reasonably conventional, by counsel he

21 would still wish to raise. And then we could -- the Trial Chamber is

22 still in control. We can take it from there.


24 MR. STEWART: I hope Your Honour would feel that was at least a

25 useful starting point.

Page 24501


2 Mr. Krajisnik, then please make a list of parts that are missing.

3 I hope you will understand that if the Chamber will come with a ruling

4 that time is limited for the Defence, that that is not a way out to answer

5 all the questions Mr. Stewart may have had in mind for six days to come,

6 but if there's any -- any specific matters you think that they should

7 be -- they should be added to your testimony and you would have asked

8 yourself, after consultation with Mr. Stewart, we'll consider you to give

9 you an opportunity to do that.

10 MR. STEWART: The only observation, Your Honour, is it would seem

11 to follow what time we did have the shorter Mr. Krajisnik's list would

12 become one supposes, but that's another matter.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, may I turn then to the 15th Session of

15 the Presidency, that's -- was on the 6th of July. And, Your Honour, that

16 is P64A, binder 25, tab 726, alternatively P65, binder 12, tab 174.

17 Q. Perhaps I won't -- perhaps I've given that reference. Perhaps

18 we've turned up that document anyway. Not to worry. If we turn to item

19 4, please, Mr. Krajisnik -- I'm skipping over -- item 3 doesn't mention

20 talks with Professor Kecmanovic, but I'm not going to ask you about that

21 in the circumstances. Item 4: "It was concluded that the president of

22 the Presidency must appoint someone to take his place in case of absence

23 from the seat of the Presidency. The following division of tasks was

24 adopted. Military issues: Dr. Karadzic; international relations and

25 questions relating to information on propaganda: Dr. Koljevic; questions

Page 24502

1 relating to refugees, humanitarian aid, and church contact," I'm not

2 reading verbatim there, just summarising, "Dr. Plavsic." And back to

3 verbatim: "For contacts with UNPROFOR set for military issues,

4 Dr. Biljana Plavsic. Questions related to commissioners and the economy:

5 Momcilo Krajisnik; questions relating to supplies: Dr. Branko Djeric."

6 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, what did you understand to be the task or

7 responsibilities being allocated to you there by saying that you should

8 take on the tasks of questions related to commissions, leave aside

9 economy, questions related to commissions?

10 A. I would like to ask the Trial Chamber to go into private session

11 for a few moments, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 24503











11 Pages 24503-24508 redacted. Private session.















Page 24509

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

17 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm -- I'm going to repeat my question, but perhaps

19 to make it clear that there are two distinct questions and at the moment

20 I'm asking you the first. The first relates to what tasks you were taking

21 on by this item in the minute relating to commissioners, and the second

22 distinct question is why you were given such tasks. So at the moment I'm

23 sticking with the first question which, as I expressed it before, was:

24 What did you understand to be the task or responsibilities being allocated

25 to you by what is said in this minute that you should take on questions

Page 24510

1 related to commissions?

2 A. I hope that I am going to give a satisfactory answer. This fourth

3 item has to do with my assignment, that I should be in charge of

4 commissioners and the economy, that is closely linked to the first item,

5 and that is item 1. And I'm going to quote it now in respect of Mr.

6 Koljevic: "Cannot work for health and psychological reasons. He has

7 family problems, health problems, and this affects his work in the

8 Presidency."

9 This was a quotation. So at first it was for those reasons that

10 he wanted to leave the Presidency, and this entire debate had to do with

11 us trying to persuade him not to do that because that would be

12 detrimental. And then he provided some alternatives, namely that he would

13 stay on the Presidency but that he could be disburdened of those issues

14 that are difficult for him. He did not mention commissioners, though.

15 Have a look and you will see. Later he said that he could not really

16 handle the commissioners.

17 Now, as we were present there, gentlemen, an item on the agenda,

18 that was A4, had to do with the Presidency and the commissioners. And

19 whatever Mr. Koljevic, Karadzic, and Mrs. Plavsic were doing, all of that

20 was what the Presidency is supposed to do. Commissioners and the economy

21 that Krajisnik and Mr. Djeric got with are not really the affair of the

22 Presidency. Mr. Aleksa Buha was in charge of different matters and other

23 people, too. Now, why was it said now that the commissioners should be

24 dealt with is this it seemed that there was no one to deal with that. At

25 that moment, I did not even think about that, that somebody could proclaim

Page 24511

1 me a member of the Presidency, if I took this like: You won't do it,

2 okay, I'll do it to help you out. So I was simply present, and then they

3 said: Can you handle that as an obligation of your own? The situation

4 was stabilised quickly. You will see later through the records Mr.

5 Koljevic continued to work in the Presidency. He did not leave. So this

6 was a family problem that he had as well as these health problems that he

7 had of his own, the tension.

8 I don't know if there was anybody who was working with the

9 commissioners. I did not simply appoint anyone. I did not sign anything

10 to that effect, and I am quite willing to explain why I signed the things

11 that I did sign. If you recall, Miskin Jovanovic and the rest, now, why

12 did I do this? Everyone present here now, if you were to be in that

13 situation, all right, stay here, we'll find someone who will do that. It

14 wasn't the point who's going to work with the commissioners, but just as

15 Mr. Karadzic said it is important for us to exist because that's a symbol

16 of the state. Mrs. Plavsic and all the rest of us were saying that

17 because this was a man who was the legitimate representative in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina, and it would have been a great pity. I assure you that this

19 was not something that had been prepared beforehand, that Mr. Djeric and I

20 would be entrusted with this. What does the Presidency have to do with

21 the economy, and then that's me? If you're receiving someone -- if

22 somebody says: Well, you receive that person. It was no problem for me

23 to help them out.

24 Mr. Koljevic pointed out that he could not handle the

25 commissioners, and I wanted us to overcome the problem at that point so

Page 24512

1 that that would not be a reason for him to leave the Presidency. This is

2 the whole truth. That was the reason. He could not take anymore, so he

3 would not have stayed in this office otherwise. Believe me, he continued

4 doing all this work, but that's the way it was at that moment. And I am

5 saying this before God and before you, that's the way it was. Had I known

6 that somebody would have said that this meant that I was turning into a

7 member of the Presidency, well, no. But I mean, I wasn't asked that way

8 and as if it mattered at that point. And now when I'm supposed to explain

9 it, I see that it's so hard to explain. Especially supplies, the question

10 of supplies, that has nothing to do with the Presidency; that's what the

11 government does. It was just mentioned by accident.

12 So please, you have different records here. Aleksa Buha and

13 others were entrusted with different duties but they were present there.

14 And they were given these assignments, that they were supposed to do

15 something. But it wasn't really a division of duties among the

16 Presidency.

17 And thank you ever so much for having understood the first point.

18 Q. Well, actually what you've done, Mr. Krajisnik, but it's perfectly

19 helpful, you've answered my second question, but that's helpful because it

20 was going to be the one after my first question. But going back to my

21 first question which is: What then -- what did you understand to be the

22 tasks involved in your taking on responsibility for questions related to

23 commissioners?

24 A. My understanding was just that that would be the way for

25 Mr. Koljevic to stay on the Presidency, and then we would overcome that

Page 24513

1 and then we would deal with the situation tomorrow. Tomorrow would be

2 another day. Commissioners, well that would be no problem, but the basic

3 issue for me was -- well, we've eliminated all the reasons you've given to

4 us, so please stay ant Presidency. So that was my reason then. See here,

5 that he would like to withdraw from the Presidency due to health

6 concerns? That is 1(A). Exhaustion -- well, somebody does not have to

7 have a headache or a foot ache in order to feel ill. At that moment Mr.

8 Koljevic was my priority, not the commissioners, and we succeeded, which

9 matters the most.

10 Q. Was it -- was it intended that -- by what's recorded in the

11 minutes here, saying that you were to take on questions related to the

12 commissioners, was it intended that you actually would, in practice, take

13 on responsibilities in relation to commissioners?

14 A. There was no responsibility there because those commissioners

15 practically did nothing. That was the first thing that should be said.

16 Secondly, if you read the record, before that he had contacts,

17 appointments, whatever, and then he said that that was his reason for

18 leaving. So that was the main point. I will tell you, Mr. Trbojevic said

19 so and all the others. No one informed them. At first Mr. Djokanovic

20 went to a few municipalities, but then he stopped working, too, because

21 people in municipalities were working independently. And Mr. Poplasen

22 also said that he established his own party and that he worked on that

23 more than as a commissioner. Perhaps some logistics was required that

24 people would get a travel order or whatever, but their work was not

25 visible and it didn't really require an effort. I could have done what he

Page 24514

1 did before, but I didn't do it. But even had I done it, it would have

2 been to help out the Presidency, not as a member of the Presidency myself.

3 All of that can be seen from this record, if you analyse it.

4 Q. So when you say there was no responsibility there because those

5 commissioners practically did nothing, was it, at least technically, part

6 of your responsibility to try to see that they did do something?

7 A. No. Mr. Karadzic still signed all their appointments. Everything

8 that you saw over there I can explain. I can explain why I signed all of

9 that. As for this, if necessary he signed whatever the commissioners

10 needed on the basis of some proposal coming from the ground or whatever.

11 So what would be the function of that person who would take care of the

12 commissioners? These people should come in, provide information, work,

13 but that's not what they did. Quite simply, they were all freelancing, so

14 to speak, and they were sort of helping out on the ground. They knew what

15 was going on in Pale and then they were sort of helping out elsewhere. So

16 it was not difficult to - how should I put this? - take care of the

17 commissioners. It didn't involve any particular work, and that is

18 obvious. I can also explain what Mr. Djokanovic said about the man from

19 Sarajevo. I can tell you exactly what it was like.

20 Q. So in the -- this minute, it's the last item in this minute under

21 item 6, it's the very last paragraph. It says: "The advisor to the

22 Presidency was made responsible for issuing public statements from

23 sessions of the Presidency after first agreeing on the text with a member

24 of the Presidency, Dr. Nikola Koljevic, who was in charge of information

25 and propaganda."

Page 24515

1 Mr. Krajisnik, it may be my failure of memory, but the -- who was

2 the advisor to the Presidency?

3 A. Cancar, Petko Cancar --

4 Q. Oh, it's in number 3. I see that it was me just missing that.

5 He's named in number 3. So that was him. And he was to agree the text

6 with Dr. Koljevic. Was that -- was that then in the nature of a sort of

7 soft job then to keep Professor Koljevic with some task or some function

8 without it being too onerous?

9 A. Exactly. You can see here, too, that he is being given some

10 importance and some enthusiasm. The advisor is going to write it up and

11 will consult Mr. Koljevic. You put it right. You defined it exactly the

12 way it was, so then this man would write it up and then he would correct

13 whatever's written. So that's it. Once you finish, I would have a few

14 additional comments before we move on to 3, if you're introduced --

15 Q. Well, the clock's behind you, Mr. Krajisnik; it's in front of me.

16 So I don't know what His Honour will say about that?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I take it if you have some comments to

18 make, that it would take at least a couple of minutes. It's 7.00 sharp.

19 If you could do it in one minute, otherwise keep it until tomorrow.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Half a minute.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to draw your

23 attention to the last page, the last point, where it says here under

24 number 5: "The secretary of the Presidency and the Assembly," it was a

25 single person for two institutions, "is urged to draft and deliver

Page 24516

1 decisions to all employees of the Assembly and the Presidency."

2 There were two institutions; that is what I wanted to tell you.

3 In this same record you can see that it was two institutions, it was Milos

4 Savic, but two institutions. That is it. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed for your

7 understanding.

8 I would also like to thank the Office of the Prosecution for their

9 understanding, too.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, my instruction again is that you

11 should not speak with anyone about your testimony but -- already given or

12 still to be given.

13 And we'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom II.

14 And, Mr. Krajisnik, most likely, the maps you provided will, by

15 then, be photocopied.

16 We adjourn.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

19 May, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.