1 Wednesday, 24 May 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Krajisnik, not to your surprise, but I'll remind you that
10 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
11 beginning of your testimony. And, Mr. Krajisnik, I did understand that
12 you had an opportunity to watch the DVD, at least the video, and that it
13 would cause you to make some additional comment or to add to answers
14 you've given before.
15 Mr. Stewart, I may take it that this is the right moment to --
16 MR. STEWART: Absolutely, Your Honour, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, please tell us what we should know
18 about it.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I got this DVD. In addition to this
20 interview, there's another interview there as well, and I actually wrote
21 down where the beginning is and where the end is and where the
22 interruption is in this interview. Actually, this interview consists of
23 two different parts. I can tell you exactly what it is. The beginning is
24 at 37 minutes, 50 seconds, and the end, 54.09 -- oh, sorry, sorry. 5
25 minutes, 46 seconds. And 8 minutes, 23 seconds, that's the end. The
1 interruption is 7 minutes, 21 seconds, and I know exactly where it is.
2 It's where the second part of the more extensive interview starts. It can
3 be seen easily. I viewed it last night.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the parties, is there more on the DVD
5 than there is in evidence? If so, parties should consider whether ...
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, the disk is -- contains one video clip, but
8 it's a compilation of a number of different interviews, as we understand
9 it. So it's one video file, as we understand it, but it does contain a
10 number of different interviews.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course what I'd like to know is
12 whether there's anything on it that is not evidence. If everything is in
13 evidence, then it seems that the relevant point is whether there is a cut
14 somewhere in the middle which could -- might explain what Mr. Krajisnik
15 says: I said more but that's not recorded, it's not broadcasted, at least
16 it's not on this video.
17 Another matter is whether portions of what now seems to be a
18 compilation of -- of interview or interviews, whether portions are not in
19 evidence and whether the parties would consider it of such relevance that
20 they would like to introduce that into evidence.
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the answer is I can't remember. It's
22 simply that this was played an awfully long time ago.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STEWART: I can't remember, although P70.A.1, which, on the
25 list of exhibits, is described as the transcript of P70 is a very short
1 item, which suggests that there is a lot of stuff that hasn't been put in
2 evidence. But the Prosecution probably know better than us, Your Honour,
3 because it was their disk in the first place.
4 MR. TIEGER: It may have been our disk in the first place, but I'm
5 not sure what is on this particular disk. However --
6 JUDGE ORIE: The parties are invited to look into the questions
7 that I just raised and to consider that if there is anything on this disk
8 that is not evidence - there is a fair chance there isn't - whether both
9 the fact that there is an interruption somewhere and that it resumes
10 somewhere else, whether that fact and the remainder which is not in
11 evidence should be brought to the attention of the Chamber. Please
12 consider it. And Mr. Stewart is -- if, on this specific point, you would
13 now -- you would have to consult with Mr. Krajisnik. I expect that a
14 favourable decision would be given if you would apply for it.
15 At this moment you first have to look at it and then we'll further
16 see what decisions are to be taken or what further evidence we'll see and
18 Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.
19 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. We can probably get Mr.
20 Sladojevic to look at it straight away, Your Honour, if it is possible --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.
22 MR. STEWART: -- I just need it handed back, Your Honour. Mr.
23 Krajisnik has got it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's the last copy -- it's the one and only copy?
25 MR. STEWART: Well, I thought we needed it.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. STEWART: Excuse me.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I can help you, Mr.
4 President. I viewed this, and we can resolve the problem very
6 MR. STEWART: We've got it on the hard drive, Your Honour, it
7 seems, so we're all right.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Well, Mr. Krajisnik, I invited the parties to look at it. If they
10 say it is of no importance whatsoever and if you would say: I would like
11 to put an additional question to myself, that is to ask about that portion
12 of the video, then we'll hear from that.
13 Mr. Stewart.
14 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]
18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I want to ask you whether you know of anything of a
19 number of matters said to have involved Crisis Staffs. Do you, yourself,
20 know anything about a Crisis Staff decision to cut off the water supply in
21 the summer of 1992 to the city of Sarajevo?
22 A. No. I was not aware of any such decision by the Crisis Staff, or
23 others, for that matter.
24 Q. Do you know anything of any Crisis Staff in Bosnia and Herzegovina
25 evacuating the entire Serbian population in order to prepare for an armed
2 A. Everything I heard here before this Court are things that I never
3 knew about, the evacuation of the population that the Crisis Staff
4 participated in. And I do not recall a single case that I heard of later,
5 that the Crisis Staff did something like that. If there is a document of
6 this nature, I would be happy to comment on it. But I really do not
7 remember any such decision or any such case.
8 Q. Did you, during 19 --
9 A. Excluding Pale, though, I've already said that, lest there be any
11 Q. During 1992 - and I'm asking you about what you knew during that
12 year - did you have any knowledge of any Crisis Staff establishing any
13 detention centre?
14 A. Well, all documents show that we didn't know and that I didn't
15 know, except for what was going on around Sarajevo and except for the
16 decisions that we passed in terms of having prisons established as state
17 institutions. As for camps, I found that quite foreign; I mean these
18 prisons outside the law that are referred to here. I'm talking about the
19 period up to August, when the government report came in and when an
20 initiative was taken to have them disbanded. Until then, I knew nothing
21 of it, and there are even MUP reports that they didn't know about it. But
22 I don't want you to think that it goes for the whole year.
23 Q. During 1992, did you have any knowledge of Crisis Staffs anywhere
24 in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serb Crisis Staffs, ordering the arrest of
25 groups of people?
1 A. I did not know of any such thing, but I know that the Crisis
2 Staffs were the local authority, that they existed in municipalities.
3 That they did this, that I did not know.
4 Q. Your Honours, Mr. Sladojevic suggests that in the last answer,
5 which it shows on the transcript, the reference "there are even MUP
6 reports," Mr. Sladojevic suggests that that -- that might have been more
7 specifically qualified by Mr. Krajisnik, the reference to the MUP.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, where you said "and there are even MUP
9 reports that they didn't know about it," it's suggested that you said
10 something more. Could you tell us what, in addition to what I just read,
11 you said.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In mid-August -- or was it in July?
13 The MUP set up some commissions, and they went to tour the camps. They
14 received reports, and once these reports came in, it became obvious that
15 the MUP had not known about these camps earlier on. We discussed it then,
16 and it was after that that the camps were disbanded. My point was that up
17 until then, even the MUP did not know anything about this, which can be
18 seen from the documents about the camps.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
20 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you during 1992 have any knowledge of Crisis
22 Staffs authorising transfer of prisoners in and out of detention centres?
23 A. Detention centres and what was the other word? I didn't
24 understand it. No, I knew that there were commissions for the exchange of
1 As for the role of Crisis Staffs, I didn't know about that. I
2 didn't know that they had anything to do with the prisoners. As far as I
3 can remember, the commissions were in different corps. Every corps had
4 its own commission for the exchange of prisoners, and then there was this
5 central commission. At that time I didn't know of it, but later on I
6 heard about that, that is to say that I found out later in connection with
7 the government.
8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you in 1991 or 1992 have any personal knowledge
9 of Crisis Staffs ordering non-Serbs to be removed from municipal
11 A. No, I did not know about that. When I'm talking about Crisis
12 Staffs, I'm saying that I did not know about that, and it would be very
13 important to look at a period or, rather, the period up until August and
14 the period after August, if we are talking about 1992. But as for all of
15 1992, well, first and foremost, they did not exist later. But I was not
16 aware of their activities of this kind.
17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps you would explain to the Trial Chamber --
18 you've a couple of times today given answers which indicate a change in
19 your knowledge around August 1992 of a number of matters. Could you
20 perhaps make it clear to the Trial Chamber what change there was in August
21 1992, in that respect.
22 A. Thank you so much for this question. All the time, up until the
23 end of July or the beginning of August, the government tried to obtain
24 information as to what was going on on the ground in order to have
25 information. Rumours were coming in, and in respect of that, they formed
1 three commissions; one for Herzegovina, as far as I know; one for Krajina;
2 one for Semberija.
3 And some time in the month of August, they got these reports. The
4 reports were not exactly terrible, but certain irregularities were
5 established. There was a debate in the government and in the Presidency
6 in connection with these reports. I attended as a guest, and a resolute
7 order was issued then to have all the irregularities redressed to see who
8 the culprits are and to have appropriate measures taken. That can be seen
9 from all the records. I think this was the 6th of August, or something
10 like that, but until then the Presidency did not know about this, but I in
11 particular did not have any knowledge of any such thing.
12 I would like to remind you that on the 10th of August, the
13 Assembly was held in Banja Luka and an MP put a question concerning
14 prisoners. It was not on the agenda then, so it would be very important
15 for me to clarify why this was not put on the agenda then, because this
16 was actually held against the president of the Assembly then. Later on
17 prisons were disbanded and better conditions were created when
18 better-quality information was obtained. That is why I am saying that it
19 is important to distinguish between these different periods of time.
20 What I possibly did know had to do with the area around Sarajevo,
21 but as for these problematic prisons that were before this court, Sratke
22 [phoen], whatever, I didn't know anything about this. Kula is the only
23 legal prison that I knew of, that I thought this was something normal. I
24 did not think that there was anything irregular going on there, and after
25 all, this was not within the scope of my authority, but it was the
1 government and the appropriate ministries that were supposed to deal with
3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, were you aware in 1991 or 1992 of Crisis Staffs
4 ordering the removal of non-Serbs from private employment positions?
5 A. I was not aware of that, although there were very few private
6 companies, but I didn't know about this.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like you to have, please, an exhibit which
8 is P529, binder 5, tab 221.
9 Now, this is a report on the work of the Municipal Assembly and
10 War Presidency from Bosanska Krupa covering a period, it says, of the 1st
11 of January, 1992, to 20th of April, 1993, and dated April 1993.
12 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, did you at any time in 1991, first of
13 all, ever visit Bosanska Krupa?
14 A. I did not visit Bosanska Krupa. As a matter of fact, I never
15 visited Bosanska Krupa.
16 Q. Well, that answered my next question. Mr. Krajisnik, it's a
17 relatively long report, but one thing it does record, and that's on -- you
18 needn't worry too much, Mr. Krajisnik, about the specific passages unless
19 I ask you to. But on the English, at page 4 at the end of the long first
20 paragraph, first full paragraph, it says: "The Crisis Staff of the
21 Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa began its work at the beginning of
22 January 1992 as the situation was becoming increasingly complex."
23 It's a fairly simple sentence, Mr. Krajisnik, so don't worry too
24 much about finding the text. Were you aware in January 1992 that a Crisis
25 Staff had been established in Bosanska Krupa?
1 A. I was not aware of that. I was supposed to go to Bosanska Krupa.
2 I was invited to the opening of a church, but Mrs. Plavsic went. And I
3 know that I did not hear of information of this kind from her either.
4 Q. Did you, between - let's try and be specific - between January
5 1992 and the beginning of the war, hear anything about what was happening
6 in Bosanska Krupa?
7 A. I heard of two cases that occurred in that area. I don't know
8 when this was. One was the arrest of Milan Martic in Otoka. I think that
9 the municipality is Bosanska Krupa. And the other case was an excessive
10 incident, namely that the monument to Branko Copic, the bust of Branko
11 Copic, was ruined and there was this small conflict between the Serbs and
12 Muslims in Bosanska Krupa. I knew that indirectly, if I can put it that
13 way. And perhaps it was even a telephone conversation that I had with
14 someone, but now I probably cannot remember. This was a political problem
15 that was supposed to be resolved between the Serb and the Muslim side, and
16 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina took part in solving this problem as
18 Q. Now, there's a paragraph, Mr. Krajisnik, that begins -- it's on
19 page 5 of the English. It begins: "The War Presidency made an assessment
20 of the situation..."
21 Excuse me.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. STEWART:
24 Q. I'll start reading it, Mr. Krajisnik, and we'll see it. It's on
25 page 4, it's the top paragraph on page 4. Do you see: "The War
1 Presidency made an assessment of the situation..."?
2 A. Yes, I see it.
3 Q. "The War Presidency made an assessment of the situation," and the
4 time period being talked about here, apparently from the document, is
5 certainly at the earliest April of 1992, "and took the only feasible and
6 appropriate decision at the time regarding the Muslim population that
7 remained in enclaves in the Serbian territory on the right bank of the
8 Una. First came the decision on the surrender of arms in all Muslim areas
9 in order to free some of the units of the Serbian Territorial Defence
10 which were maintaining a blockade of Muslim villages. This decision was
11 very poorly implemented. No agreement was reached in the Ostruznica and
12 Badic area. The weak response or total disregard of Muslims to the call
13 for surrender of arms and Alija's threat that Krupa must become green,
14 whatever the cost, forced the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality
15 to offer Muslims two options. They could organise themselves and, with
16 our guarantees and full protection, move out to the destination of their
17 transfer, or this would be done by military means. All Muslim villages in
18 the central regions accepted the temporary transfer, provided they could
19 take along all their movable property."
20 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, there's a reference to -- there to
21 Alija's threat that Krupa must become green, whatever the cost, and we
22 know by now "what must become green" means, "green" for Muslim. First of
23 all, do you know or did you know in 1992 anything at all about a threat by
24 Mr. Izetbegovic - we take it it's him - that Krupa must become green?
25 A. I did not know that he made such a statement.
1 Q. Were you aware in 1992 of any similar types of threat or statement
2 by Mr. Izetbegovic in relation to any municipalities?
3 A. In 1990 there was an immoderate remark by Mr. Izetbegovic about
4 that area; but in 1991 I don't recall him making any statements about this
6 Q. The immoderate remark in 1990, first of all, in what circumstances
7 was it made? Was it a -- on a media or was it in a meeting or where?
8 A. At an election rally in Velika Kladusa, which was held before the
9 elections, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic said that the Muslims would defend Bosnia
10 with weapons. He noted this in his memoirs, in his book. This was
11 immoderate because 1990 was the beginning; the situation was bad. The
12 reason it was immoderate was that this area was raw. It was a highly
13 sensitive area, because in World War II there had been a terrible conflict
14 there and genocide had been perpetrated against the Serbs. I learned what
15 the reference to the dead meant later on. Mr. Vjestica gave an interview
16 to the Office of the Prosecutor in which he explained that before
17 World War II the proportion of Serbs --
18 MR. TIEGER: That's okay. I'll ...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that I was to say
20 everything I knew; that's why I was explaining this. He said that the
21 ratio of Serbs to Muslims was 75 per cent Muslims, 25 per cent Serbs,
22 whereas now it was the other way around. And he also explained what is
23 stated here because he was asked this by the Prosecution. He said that he
24 had two school friends who were Muslims who came to see him and asked him
25 for his assistance in moving out of the area. That's what I knew about
1 all this.
2 At the time I knew only what he said at the Assembly on the 12th
3 of May, and I cannot explain how I understood his speech. And it
4 corresponds to what he said to the Office of the Prosecutor. He is a
5 robust man, he's rather radical, but he's also a very warm and gentle
6 person; however, his speeches were quite belligerent. I'm referring to
7 Miroslav Vjestica, the deputy from Krupa. The Office of the Prosecutor
8 gave this interview to my Defence and my Defence showed it to me.
9 MR. STEWART:
10 Q. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, just moving on to the point here that's in
11 the text. It refers to the Muslims in Bosanska Krupa having been given
12 the two options to organise themselves and move out or it would be done by
13 military means. First of all, were you aware of any such option being
14 given to Muslims in Bosanska Krupa?
15 A. No, I was not aware of it at the time.
16 Q. Yes. In 1992 were you aware of any such option or a similar
17 option being given by Serbs to Muslims in any other municipality?
18 A. In 1992, on the 12th of May, I heard from Mr. Vjestica at the
19 Assembly that all the Muslims had left their areas. And I even understood
20 that they were "assisted" to leave and that their departure was not
21 completely voluntary. Later on he explained it differently, but I did not
22 hear anything similar from anybody else. I only heard about it at the
23 Assembly, and I can explain my understanding of it at the time. I'm
24 referring to the 12th of May.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I inquire why assisted -- perhaps
1 I missed something -- why "assisted" appears in inverted commas at line 18
2 of the transcript.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's because the translator said that that is what
4 Mr. Krajisnik said.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it.
6 MR. STEWART: I just want to be clear --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik said assisted between -- at least
8 that's how it was translated, and that's what I heard in English and that
9 is what --
10 MR. STEWART: That's fine, Your Honour, that answers my question.
11 I just noticed and wanted to be clear. Just an inquiry, Your Honour, to
12 be dealt with. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. STEWART:
15 Q. The -- Mr. Krajisnik, the -- you said that their departure was not
16 completely voluntary. What -- what did you understand as -- as being --
17 well, if you like, the -- what it was that made their departure not
18 completely voluntary?
19 A. In that area, as I understood him to say, the Serbs all went to
20 Serb territory and the Muslims all went to their own territory. And
21 nobody did this because they wanted to.
22 Mr. Abdic said, and it's in one of his newspaper interviews, that
23 everyone should return to his own home because this was artificial.
24 That's why I said "assisted." It wasn't because people really wanted
25 that, but he was not successful because they realised it wasn't realistic
1 at that point in time. But everybody was talking about everybody
2 returning to their own homes, and that's what the meeting between
3 Mr. Abdic, Mr. Vjestica, and the others was about.
4 Q. Did you -- no. Just leaving Bosanska Krupa as a specific
5 municipality for the moment. In 1992, did you know anything about any
6 Crisis Staff establishing anything going under the label of a travel
7 agency or an exchange agency which had anything to do with the movements
8 of Muslims out of municipalities?
9 A. At one point in time - and this was in the second half of 1992 - I
10 learned that there was an agency, either in Banja Luka or in Bijeljina.
11 This was not an agency run by the Crisis Staff; it was a privately owned
13 After the decision or announcement, and as I mentioned it was the
14 International Red Cross who also said that, people could leave certain
15 areas where there was a threat. There were many complaints about the work
16 of that agency, and I think that later on it was closed down because
17 people were working in their own personal interest. And I think that the
18 deputies objected to this at a session of the Assembly, but this happened
19 later, perhaps in the second half of 1992.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I ask one additional question?
21 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, when you said they were "assisted,"
23 what do you mean by that? Do I have to understand that to be that the
24 Serbs were more or less pressured to go to the Serb area and, if need be,
25 for that purpose, leave the places where they had lived until that moment
1 and, similarly, the Muslims? Or -- how do I have to understand the
3 Mr. --
4 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, the transcript says: Do I have
5 to understand that to be that the Serbs were more or less pressured to go
6 to the Serb area and not --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
8 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And similarly the Muslims. I was talking about all
11 MR. TIEGER: My apologies.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His Honour is a clever man and he
13 had put a very good question. Because there was reciprocity. Your
14 Honour, I understand all these questions. You see, when Mr. Vjestica was
15 explaining things, he was introducing a little bit his radical views and
16 his boasting. He said that he had been asked by his neighbours to go
17 over, but he was trying to make himself sound important. He had helped
18 them, in his view. But I didn't think that this was voluntary. People
19 were not just fleeing the war, but the Serbs "helped them." They didn't
20 really help them, but people wouldn't have left if there hadn't been a war
21 and if they hadn't been afraid. That's how I understood it and that's why
22 I said "assisted."
23 Your Honour was right, but I was speaking about Mr. Vjestica when
24 I said this and what my impression was of his statements.
25 JUDGE ORIE: To say it in simple words: They had no other choice
1 than to leave?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. You see, it was actually
3 established later that they asked to leave. To what extent this was
4 voluntary and to what extent there was objective fear, that's another
5 question. But nobody would have left the area had there not been a war
6 and were they not afraid. Whether they were intentionally intimidated,
7 that's a different matter, but those who "assisted," these people in
8 leaving were not sad because these people were leaving.
9 So the impression one gets is that this was not all proper. One
10 cannot amnesty it; that's why there was a meeting with Mr. Abdic about all
11 this. They were discussing what to do with the Serbs and what to do with
12 the Muslims. So that -- I tried to explain what my impression of all this
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour, there's something
17 on the transcript.
18 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, was your -- when you were hearing about these
19 matters from Mr. Vjestica, was it your understanding that Serbs in his
20 municipality had been behaving in some way improperly towards Muslims?
21 A. Excuse me. I knew every deputy as well as I know myself, and when
22 one of them spoke, I knew whether he was bragging or telling the truth.
23 And I knew that what Mr. Vjestica was saying had to be taken with a big
24 pinch of salt. That was my impression. But if he hadn't explained it as
25 he had to the Prosecution, it would have appeared as if he had expelled
1 the Muslims. But he wasn't speaking the whole truth. He didn't say that
2 he had this meeting with Abdic.
3 When we establish the complete picture, as we are now able to do,
4 we can see that there were individual incidents of expulsion, but it
5 wasn't really expulsion. And I understood that -- well, there was a
6 wartime atmosphere, and he was boasting. And not everyone took what he
7 said to be a fact, because a huge number of Serbs was there on the other
8 side, so this problem was simply cancelled out. We didn't know what to do
9 with the Serbs from the Cazin area. But now the whole truth has come to
10 light. All the pieces of the jig-saw puzzle have come together, but this
11 is only 12 years later. My impression at the time was that he wasn't
12 telling the full truth and that he was simply bragging a little bit,
14 Q. When you had made whatever adjustment you would make for the sort
15 of person Mr. Vjestica was and whether he was likely to be bragging and so
16 on, were you then left with any understanding that Serbs in his
17 municipality had been behaving in some way improperly towards Muslims?
18 A. No, I didn't see it that way. That wasn't my understanding,
19 because the way he presented it was the Serbs have come here, the Muslims
20 have gone there. These people can't go back there, and those people can't
21 come back here. And this was a vocabulary appropriate to war. He did not
22 say: We expelled all the Muslims and the Serbs have remained where they
23 were. He was speaking about a situation that existed at the time. The
24 river Una is a border, we are happy that way, there are no Serbs over
25 there, there are no Muslims over here, and that's a good thing. That's
1 what was in his mind.
2 I would have to have a discussion with him now and ask him what he
3 meant at the time, but that would take us away from our main topic. I
4 knew there was a meeting with Mr. Abdic and him, but we simply did not
5 interfere in these local affairs. We discussed this at the Assembly
6 session because we didn't believe it was just one-sided, that it was just
7 the Serbs who had expelled someone. Far fewer Muslims went over than the
8 number of Serbs who were expelled.
9 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm -- I'd like to ask you a couple of questions to
10 get some, if you like, clear guidelines here.
11 You have mentioned, I think already in your evidence, there is a
12 situation, isn't there, where because there's a war on and because people
13 are afraid, they may have left where they lived with nobody telling them
14 to but the circumstances leading them, through fear, to go somewhere else.
15 You -- you understand, and if I've understood well your previous evidence,
16 you say that that did happen in Bosnia in 1992. Is that correct?
17 A. I am talking about the Krupa area where Mr. Abdic had a meeting
18 with both sides. It was established that the Serbs had fled from one area
19 and the Muslims had fled from another area. They wanted to return
20 everybody to their own homes. But they said there's a war on now, so it's
21 not realistic to do it at present. They all committed themselves to do
22 this once the war was over. And at the local level they even discussed an
23 exchange of the civilian population. We didn't know that at the time.
24 They said: Let all our people go, we will let all your people go, and
25 that way people will be safe. This is in the minutes of the Presidency of
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina when Mr. Sefer Halilovic informed them of this.
2 The aim was to save people because everybody wanted to go to the
3 other side, or to their own side. I mean "their own" under quotation
4 marks. That side where they were in the majority. I think it was on the
5 20th of June that this session of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina
6 was held where this was discussed. Afterwards there was no more
7 discussion of it.
8 There's -- the same thing is mentioned in Halilovic's book, but
9 it's also in the minutes of the Presidency meeting of Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina. So there are descriptions as to how these events took place.
11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, was it your view in mid-1992 that for, let us say,
12 a Muslim to be forced at gunpoint to leave where he or she lived and go to
13 another municipality, forced by a Serb, was wrong, unlawful, not
15 A. The best way for me to explain it is if I tell you what I know.
16 In my view, every Serb was happy if he could leave a Muslim area
17 and cross over to Serb territory. Because I had this impression, I also
18 understood that the Muslims would be happy if they went over to Muslim
19 territory. I didn't know what the Muslims wanted, but I did know what the
20 Serbs wanted. Many Serbs went into Serb Sarajevo. The number of
21 inhabitants there tripled. People were terrified. They were fleeing the
22 war. Whether anybody "assisted" them, that's a different issue, but it
23 was their desire - I'm speaking about the Serbs now - to reach the free
24 territory where they would be in the majority and, therefore, I assume
25 there would be a similar sentiment on the other side. Nobody wanted to
1 remain a minority and wonder whether some criminal gang was going to come
2 along and kill them. That's why I thought the Muslims wanted this,
3 because I knew what was happening among the Serbs.
4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, it's you answering the questions and I'm always
5 subject to the guidance of the Trial Chamber. I -- if I may, I'd slightly
6 encourage you not to keep putting words in inverted commas in your
7 answers, which I suggest is not helping to make things clearer.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Krajisnik thinks that this clarifies the
9 language that he uses, he's free to do so, Mr. Stewart.
10 MR. STEWART: I'm in Your Honour's hands. I only had in mind that
11 the last time he -- or one of the times he did it, it gave rise to a
12 question from Your Honour to try to clarify it. And now he's used it
13 again. It really immediately provokes a need for a question to clarify.
14 That's all I had in mind, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I had in mind that Mr. Krajisnik, when he earlier
16 explained what he meant while expressing himself in this way, that we
17 should understand - but please correct me when I'm wrong, Mr. Krajisnik -
18 that we should now understand it in a similar way as you explained it
19 before. No. No correction, so therefore --
20 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question.
22 Mr. Krajisnik, one thing that strikes me is that you are
23 consistently making a comparison to say: Well, it was not one-sided. I
24 take it that for the Muslims it was the same for the Serbs. Nevertheless,
25 when you talked about what you discussed at the Assembly session and when
1 you said you didn't believe that it was one-sided, you said that it was
2 just the Serbs who had expelled someone. And then you added: "Far fewer
3 Muslims went over than the number of Serbs who were expelled."
4 You're using language there which suggests that Serbs were
5 expelled and that Muslims went over, or did you include in "going over"
6 that they were under a similar pressure as the Serbs, of whom you said
7 they were expelled?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was probably speaking fast, so the
9 interpretation was not good enough.
10 Your Honour, I am speaking a session of the Presidency of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina where Mr. Sefer Halilovic provided information to the
12 effect that in the Cazinska Krajina area where Bosanska Krupa is located,
13 on the local level the Serbs and the Muslims were negotiating among
14 themselves about an exchange of the civilian population. And at that
15 session, an exchange of Serbs from Zenica and Banja Luka was mentioned --
16 I'm adding this now. Mr. Halilovic commented on this. It was then that
17 we spoke about it; afterwards, it never came up again at a Presidency
19 The second part of my reply, when I was drawing a parallel, it
20 wasn't a parallel between expulsions of Serbs and Muslims in order to
21 amnesty the Serbian side for expelling the Muslims, if it did that indeed,
22 but I said what my understanding was of the reason why the Muslims were
23 leaving their homes. I said that I had information about why the Serbs
24 were leaving Muslim areas. They were all happy to go to Serb territory,
25 and perhaps there were some "voluntary" departures, and I meant to say
1 that it was under pressure, but even so they were happy to arrive on Serb
2 territory. In Serb Sarajevo, there was so many Serb refugees that the
3 population practically tripled --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to stop you because you
5 don't answer my question. My question was not to explain all the
6 circumstances but to explain the language you used, which is that you used
7 the term "expelled" for Serbs and you used the word "went over" for
8 Muslims when you compared the situation of the two. I'm just seeking to
9 understand whether it was your intention to make a distinction to the
10 effect that Serbs who left were expelled and whether Muslims who left went
11 over, which is the Serbs being expelled, there is certain -- there is
12 pressure, there would be force -- well, the proper meaning of the
13 word "expelled," whereas the word "went over" is far more neutral, whether
14 you wanted to make that distinction by using this language, yes or no.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said, Your
16 Honour --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then, we'll then check that on the basis of the
18 original -- I'll ask the --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me just explain what I was
20 trying to say, please --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but please then concentrate on what I ask you
22 and not the whole of an explanation of the circumstances. I'm asking you
23 about the language you used. And if you say: That's not what I said,
24 please then say what you said and we'll check that then on the original
25 tape. So please focus on the language you used.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I very focussed -- let me just give
2 you one further sentence in clarification.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs who went over to the Serb
5 territory were happy that they had gone over. They did not feel that they
6 had been expelled; they felt happy. That's what I said. And because I
7 had this impression, I thought that the Muslims wanted the same thing;
8 that's the entire philosophy that I was trying to present here, what I've
9 been saying.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check the original language you used.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
12 MR. STEWART:
13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps I can just very briefly say that you -- you
14 know that we have to finish on the Trial Chamber's current directions by
15 the end of tomorrow, don't you? Examination-in-chief --
16 A. Well, you know what? You know what? Please, let me just tell you
17 something. I am answering the way I can, completely. You asked me what
18 my impression was in terms of how the Muslims left; I don't know how they
19 left. I based my impression on what I saw in the case of the Serbs;
20 that's the whole story. I didn't want to say anything else. I assumed
21 that just the way the Serbs wanted to go over to the other territory, I
22 thought that the Muslims wanted to go to their territory, too. I cannot
23 explain it in any other way. It's easy for me to say I don't know, but I
24 wanted to be of assistance to this Trial Chamber.
25 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, all I want to say is subject to our duties to the
1 court, the one thing that is quite clear is that Mr. Josse and I are on
2 your side; everybody recognises that. But the -- because we are finishing
3 tomorrow, it just -- Mr. Krajisnik, if you would please, when I ask a
4 question, try to avoid feeling that because of those pressures you've got
5 to include all sorts of other things in order to make sure they're said.
6 I would still, please, invite you, as far as possible, to go with your
7 counsel's questions.
8 A. Mr. Stewart, if you were putting the right questions to me, if you
9 understood the problem, it would be easy for me to answer, but you are
10 asking me to say something -- I mean, if I were to say that the Serbs
11 expelled the Muslims, it wouldn't be right because I don't know about
12 this. So I was just trying to explain what my impression was and I wanted
13 to be of assistance. And I think that's useful. I know exactly what
14 every situation was. There is just this problem of a misunderstanding:
15 You do not understand me. And now whether the interpretation is this way
16 or that way. I am telling you that I am saying the truth, the whole
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to stop you. One of the
19 questions put to you by Mr. Stewart was whether it was your view in
20 mid-1992 that for a Muslim to be forced at gunpoint to leave where he or
21 she lived and go to another municipality, forced by a Serb, whether that
22 was wrong, unlawful, not acceptable. You did just not answer that
23 question. I can imagine that you say: I think it was wrong, but to my
24 knowledge it never happened. Okay, fine, that's two lines, and I think
25 you gave a clear answer to Mr. Stewart.
1 You come with a long story, but you do not answer. You were asked
2 about an opinion, and in that opinion of course there is a suggestion --
3 your opinion is what you thought at that time. That's even a fact, what
4 was on your mind at that time. To that extent, it's not an opinion,
5 although you formed it as an opinion, perhaps at that time. If you would
6 like to add that it never happened, fine, just add one line but answer the
7 question, please.
8 Mr. Stewart, I gave this as an example; I take it that that --
9 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, that's most helpful.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said 100 times that
11 I don't know anything about this. I mean hypothetically what can I say?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But give me concrete questions and I
14 will give concrete answers. I will tell you everything I know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Krajisnik, this question, if you
16 say: I never thought about it at that time, so therefore I couldn't tell
17 you what my opinion was because I didn't give it ever any thought and I
18 had no knowledge that it ever happened, that would have been a clear
19 answer to a clear question. So please focus on the questions when
20 answering them.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, but I am focussed, Your Honour.
22 Please, I'm answering your question. If I would condemn any person who
23 wanted to expel another person at gunpoint, that is a crime, and I've said
24 that ten times. Who has the right to expel someone at gunpoint?
25 MR. STEWART:
1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, that --
2 MR. STEWART: I think, Your Honour, that answers that question of
3 mine, I think.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
5 MR. STEWART:
6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'll cut to the chase of exactly where I'm going.
7 At one end of the spectrum there is somebody driving somebody away
8 at gunpoint, which you acknowledge is criminal. It's unacceptable. At
9 the other end of the spectrum is, however unfortunate and tragic it is,
10 the circumstances of war leading people, through fear, to leave, and
11 people can argue about how forced that is, but that's, if you like, at the
12 other end of the spectrum here.
13 My question, then, to you is: Can you give the Trial Chamber some
14 idea of what you in 1992 regarded as acceptable where the line was between
15 what constituted assistance, without inverted commas, if you like,
16 legitimate assistance to people to leave, and where it became something
17 which was not acceptable, that was, in some way, a forced and unlawful way
18 of getting people to leave. Could you -- do you see the question and
19 could you give the Trial Chamber an idea of where you drew that line.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you did do that in 1992. Of course I don't know
21 whether it has been --
22 MR. STEWART: Even --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but even in your mind there are a lot of matters
24 that I have -- never thought over in my life.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is absolutely right. If the answer is
1 there was no such line in your head, you had no idea, you can say that,
2 Mr. Krajisnik, of course.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in 1991, not in 1992, but
4 always. I was always against forcible expulsions of the population. I
5 only thought that someone had the right to -- a voluntary choice to leave
6 if they are in fear and if they want to leave voluntarily. I think they
7 have the right to do that. Everybody was afraid of the war. I gave an
8 example. Quite simply, not at any point in time did I think that anyone
9 had the right to expel someone else.
10 Q. Did you give consideration in 1992 to the question whether it was
11 acceptable to -- to interfere or to threaten to interfere with somebody's
12 property rights as a way of encouraging them to leave where they lived?
13 A. You know what the interpretation was like now? I didn't
14 understand any of what you were saying.
15 So if I understand what you're saying that somebody is taking
16 somebody's property away, if somebody is supposed to transfer his property
17 to someone else, well, no, nobody has the right to do that. And
18 Mr. Karadzic said that at the Assembly, too, that if you are doing that
19 kind of thing you will have to annul it, on the 27th of July, that's when
20 he said it. And you have that agreement reached in Pale only in terms of
21 safe-guarding property, but not taking it away. Look at the agreement and
22 you will see.
23 Q. Did you have knowledge in 1992 of non-Serbs being asked to sign
24 forms anywhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina saying that they were leaving
25 their municipality voluntarily?
1 A. I did not know that, but I heard that on the 27th of July, we were
2 in a hurry to get to the London Conference, that Karadzic heard that from
3 some MP and he objected to that. And that's in the stenographic notes,
4 but I didn't pay any attention to that because I was in a hurry to get to
5 the conference, and I was not aware of any individual cases. Because in
6 Pale, I mean people did that, they were safe-guarding each other's
7 property. You take care of my property, I'll take care of your property.
8 So that was quite a normal thing. We always said that after the war
9 everybody's private property would be returned to whoever it belonged to.
10 Look at the stenographic notes of the 27th of July and you will see it
11 written there.
12 Q. Were you aware in 1992 of Serbs in any municipalities taking steps
13 to ensure that Muslims who left that municipality would never return?
14 A. I was not aware of that. I was not aware of these insane ideas.
15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, were you -- I'm turning to a different topic now.
16 Were you --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I just ask you, you have gone
18 through a relatively long list of matters we heard here as evidence and
19 whether Mr. Krajisnik was aware of that. Could I add one item to that
21 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, in 1992, well, let's say the summer of
23 1992, and I'll just take one example of which we -- on which we heard
24 evidence, were you ever aware of killings at a larger scale of Muslims not
25 in relation to any combat activity and just, to give you an example, for
1 example, the Koricanske Stijene event where men were taken from buses and
2 a large number of them being directly killed. You certainly remember that
3 evidence, I take it. Did you ever hear about such events --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you aware of this or other similar events
6 that had taken place?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as for that incident,
8 I heard of it here. But even if there were a smaller-scale incident,
9 whenever I was present there was an immediate response to check this out,
10 whether it was correct or not. Those were the orders issues and
11 investigations carried out. I know about that. And there -- if there
12 were any indications of crimes having been committed, at any meeting that
13 I attended measures would be taken. I can say now that at every meeting I
14 attended, if something like that was heard measures were taken.
15 As for Koricanske Stijene, I never heard of that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
18 MR. STEWART:
19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when -- when you were involved in international
20 peace talks and negotiations in May, June, July 1992, were there occasions
21 or even one occasion on which you and your colleagues, Dr. Karadzic,
22 Mr. Koljevic, offered in the course of those meetings any sort of
24 A. As far as I can remember, there was a proposal for a cease-fire
25 that was on the table all the time. The 12th of May, after the 12th of
1 May - I'm talking about Assemblies now - we always asked for that. Not
2 only we, but the international community, too. We always called for a
3 cease-fire in order for the talks to continue.
4 Q. And in making that offer of a cease-fire in those talks, you and
5 your colleagues were making an offer that you were able to implement, were
7 A. I was not making these proposals. This was the joint view of our
8 delegation. And practically, as a rule, it was initiated by the
9 international community, and we always accepted that. Except on the 12th
10 of May at the Assembly, I think, where we asked at our own initiative for
11 a cessation of combat activities, for a continuation of negotiations --
12 well, even if war operations were to continue.
13 However, most of this was mediated by the international community,
14 UNPROFOR, or the European Community. We accepted that, but everything was
15 done through the Main Staff to keep this up, and we always received
16 information. If the Serb side was being accused of something, we would
17 invariably be told that it was the other side that did that, and that that
18 is how the cease-fire was broken. There were these mutual accusations.
19 Q. And what was the chain of command by which any cease-fire would be
20 implemented, a cease-fire on the Serb side?
21 A. Mr. Mladic was commander of the Main Staff, and he did that
22 according to his own line, according to the organisation that was there.
23 He was supposed to receive an order, I don't know how this was, from the
24 Presidency -- or rather, directly from Mr. Karadzic. And that is what was
25 brought to him and what then went down to the lowest level.
1 Q. You see, Mr. Krajisnik, there is a -- a intercept of a telephone
2 conversation showing that Mrs. Plavsic made a call -- well, say "made a
3 call," she had a telephone call, we don't know who made it, with
4 Mr. Stanisic on the 14th of May, 1992 in which she ordered him to ensure
5 that the Bosnian Serb forces were to cease fire at 1400 hours sharp, not a
6 minute earlier, not a minute later. Were you aware in 1992, in May, of
7 Mrs. Plavsic giving such orders?
8 A. No. And I can explain that telephone conversation because I went
9 through it with Mr. Josse, and in relation to some of the things that were
10 going on at the time.
11 Q. Well, it probably -- leave on one side any conversations you had
12 with Mr. Josse. If you would, yes, would give the Trial Chamber your
13 explanation and your evidence about what you know about that telephone
14 conversation, please.
15 A. Mrs. Plavsic was in Sarajevo, and she was in contact with
16 UNPROFOR, with Mr. Doyl, and I don't know who else, and they insisted on a
17 cease-fire, and there were mutual accusations bandied about, whether the
18 police from Vrace was firing at the Muslims or were the Muslims firing at
19 the police. You heard a few of these telephone conversations in which the
20 police complained that they were being shelled by the Muslims.
21 Since Mrs. Plavsic had been appointed member of the Presidency,
22 member of the supreme command, on the 12th of May, she knew that. And on
23 the 14th of May, she called the minister of the MUP at Vrace,
24 Mr. Stanisic, and she said to him: I agreed on a cease-fire on our side.
25 I hold you accountable for abiding by this, even if they fire at you,
1 because the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina is going to order their own
2 forces not to fire at you. If they fire at you, let me know and I'm going
3 to inform UNPROFOR.
4 She said to him: I hold you accountable for that, and he was
5 saying that he cannot take the fire any longer because he's under Muslim
6 fire all the time. And she said: Well, even if that is happening, let it
7 be seen but do not respond to fire. She wanted the cease-fire to be
8 established on that day.
9 She went to UNPROFOR later, and UNPROFOR helped her go to Serb
10 territory. At that time, I did not know about this telephone
11 conversation, but I can interpret the conversation that is there and the
12 role of Mrs. Plavsic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could you tell me what exhibit number we
14 are talking about.
15 MR. STEWART: I can give you the reference, Your Honour. I'm
16 not -- I don't know what exhibit number it is, Your Honour, but it is --
17 no, Your Honour. I don't know what the exhibit number is, Your Honour.
18 It's the 14th of May, 1992, but we can --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
20 MR. STEWART: During the break, if we can --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll find it on the 14th of May.
22 MR. STEWART: I wasn't -- I just didn't want to stop and take
23 time, but we'll try and find it for Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, can we be absolutely clear what your evidence is as
25 to the capacity in which Mrs. Plavsic was purporting to give such an
1 instruction. You said she had been appointed a member of the Presidency,
2 a member of the supreme command; she knew that. Was it in one or both of
3 those capacities or in some other capacity that Mrs. Plavsic was
4 purporting to give that order or instruction to Mr. Stanisic?
5 A. Mrs. Plavsic was made in charge of relations with UNPROFOR at one
6 particular meeting. She was in Sarajevo and she was the target of
7 different gangs. She sought UNPROFOR protection and she had contact with
8 them. Then this idea cropped up -- or rather, this task. And she called
9 the MUP at Vrace and the minister answered the phone. She talked to him,
10 first of all as the member of the Presidency who was in charge with
11 relations with UNPROFOR, and she knew that she became a member of the
12 Presidency in Banja Luka, that that is how it became lawful. Now she is
13 trying to make him deal with this seriously, that he should observe this
14 at all costs, but I believe that she did that because she cared first and
15 foremost about the Serb side not being blamed for this and for having the
16 cease-fire observed.
17 Now, what she thought, whether she was doing this as a member of
18 the supreme command, which she was; or as a member of the Presidency,
19 which she was; or as the person in charge of relations with UNPROFOR,
20 which she was. What she had in mind then, I don't know, but on all of
21 these accounts she had the right to order Mr. Stanisic to do that. This
22 is how this conversation took place in order to have the cease-fire
24 Q. Did you know at the time of this telephone conversation or that
25 there was communication on this specific matter between Mrs. Plavsic and
1 Mr. Stanisic?
2 A. I do not remember that I was following these matters, and I
3 believed that at that time I did not know anything about this. But I did
4 know that she was in Sarajevo and in a very difficult situation, that in
5 fact she was a prisoner.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, I'm about to hand over to Mr. Josse,
7 so I don't know whether Your Honours would want two minutes of Mr. Josse
8 or would need a break before him.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Although every minute from Mr. Josse is a pleasure to
10 hear, nevertheless we would first have the break. We will resume at 10
11 minutes past 4.00.
12 Yes, Mr. Josse?
13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, simply this: Could Mr. Krajisnik be
14 handed -- could he be handed the double pension material look at during
15 the break?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's no problem with that. And in order to
17 prevent that Mr. Krajisnik has other concerns as well, I can tell him that
18 next Tuesday, between 8.00 and 9.00 to the dentist, has the full support
19 of the Chamber, which would mean for the parties that we would have a
20 start later, and it depends --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- how much Mr. Krajisnik will have to suffer,
23 whether it will be 10.00 or 10.15.
24 Yes, the material may be handed out to Mr. Krajisnik and I think
25 as I said before, there's a favourable inclination of the Chamber to have
1 it discussed with him and of course, that's okay.
2 MR. JOSSE: Well, I suspect I'll have to do that at the second
3 break, when he's had a chance to read it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, approval is given for that.
5 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 10 minutes past 4.00
7 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it was announced that we would have the
10 pleasure of your examination now. Please proceed -- not to say that it
11 was any less of a pleasure when Mr. Stewart examined the witness, but
12 please proceed.
13 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour. Just -- both parties have
14 ascertained that intercept that was referred to, which as P64A, binder 7,
15 tab 221. That's the one between Mrs. Plavsic and Mico Stanisic.
16 Examination by Mr. Josse: [Continued]
17 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I am going to try and tidy up a few matters
18 that have been left unresolved in the course of questions I have asked you
19 previously. We had got yesterday to the point where Mr. Tieger helpfully
20 made it clear that you hadn't answered a question that I had asked. The
21 question was: Were you aware of the presence of several hundred
22 paramilitaries in Pale in the spring of 1992?
23 A. No, I was not aware of any paramilitary formations at Pale at that
25 Q. The last matter in relation to the Muslim population of Pale that
1 I want to ask you about is this: The same witness alleged that he later
2 learnt, after his own departure, that 12 Muslims remained behind in Pale
3 during the war and that they were all killed. From your own knowledge,
4 are you aware of any Muslims who lived in and -- in Pale through the war?
5 A. I know of one case. We have a statement by a Muslim woman who
6 spent the war at Pale, but I don't know how many of them there were.
7 Q. Do you know her yourself during the war?
8 A. No, no, I didn't know her. But there is a statement, so I know
9 it's there.
10 Q. Are you aware of any Muslims having been killed in Pale during the
12 A. I don't know of any such cases. It was in the purview of the MUP,
13 and whether such things happened, I don't know.
14 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, we have redone the documents that were
15 handed out yesterday.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. JOSSE: They are on the bench.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have seen them now without comments.
19 MR. JOSSE: We would like numbers attributed to them and --
20 JUDGE ORIE: One by one, Mr. Josse?
21 MR. JOSSE: Well --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's a better way of dealing with it
23 because it's --
24 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Well, perhaps the registrar could do that whilst
25 I continue the examination.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. JOSSE: And we could come back to it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And the first document you would like to --
4 MR. JOSSE: The first document might as well be the one that has
5 the A upon it, which is the one dated the 9th of April, 1992.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D197, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 MR. JOSSE: Does Your Honour want me to go through them one by
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I take it that you're putting questions about
12 these documents.
13 MR. JOSSE: I'm not.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You're not.
15 MR. JOSSE: I'm not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the next one would then be B -- be Crisis
17 Staff document, 11th of April, 1992.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D198, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D198. Then the third one would be?
20 MR. JOSSE: That's --
21 JUDGE ORIE: It is an article from Glas, 17th of April, 1992, the
22 date appears on the text. That would be?
23 THE REGISTRAR: D199, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The next one would be document D, which is a
25 document, an order, from the Pale Crisis Staff. Is that -- it sounds so
1 familiar. It's -- I think it's in evidence already, isn't it, these
2 telephone numbers that were cut off?
3 MR. JOSSE: The telephone numbers that were cut off is in evidence
4 already, that's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we don't need D --
6 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry, I should have spotted that. That's right.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then E is a document, the Municipal Assembly of
8 the municipality of Pale, at least the president of it addressing the SDS
9 secretary. That would be -- and that's 12th of June, 1992, would be,
10 Mr. --
11 THE REGISTRAR: D200, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D200.
13 Next one would be F, which seems to be -- at least that's what
14 your explanation says, the minutes of the Pale Skupstina opstina Pale,
15 that's the Assembly of Pale municipality, 18th of June, 1992, would be?
16 THE REGISTRAR: D201, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: 201.
18 Next one would be G, which is a decision of the Pale Assembly
19 if -- dated the 19th of June, 1992, would be D?
20 THE REGISTRAR: 202, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: 202.
22 The next one would be H is a handwritten document described as a
23 request made by ten Muslims sent to the Pale Assembly, Skupstina opstina
24 Pale. And is it correct that it's addressed at Pale SUP, Mr. Josse?
25 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So the SUP being the address used here to send
2 something to the Assembly. That would be D?
3 THE REGISTRAR: 203, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 203. And, yes, that was the 22nd of June.
5 Next document --
6 MR. JOSSE: I notice the next document has an ERN number upon it.
7 I -- I'm afraid I don't know whether it's been exhibited.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Not on -- let me just see -- yes, because the -- what
9 we find after H, the first page, is a page also handwritten but in
10 apparently a different handwriting. And a stamp on the top of it,
11 Skupstina opstina Pale. It is dated the 22nd of June. Is that part of H,
12 Mr. Josse, or does it belong to I?
13 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Same topic, different document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Same -- so we should then make the first one, that is
15 the 22nd of June, 1992, with 12 names on it is D203, perhaps A. And then
16 the next one with a list of 25 names on it, although it seems to other
17 persons are -- oh, no, I see already that's -- yes -- well, next one is,
18 you say, similar document. That would be 203B --
19 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- I would say.
21 Next one is I. You say there's an ERN number on it. Do we know
22 whether it's in evidence? Is there any way of searching very quickly?
23 MR. JOSSE: We've looked and we couldn't find any reference to it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You couldn't find it. We'll assign a number to it
25 provisionally. It's a document --
1 MR. JOSSE: No, no. Could Your Honour give me one moment?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. JOSSE: P64A, tab 738.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check whether that's -- whether I have a
5 similar ...
6 MR. HARMON: There may be another number, Your Honour, P529,
7 Hanson tab 526.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the most important point is, at least, whether
9 it's in evidence, yes or no. 738. Yes. 25th of June, handwritten
10 0016092. Yes, that's in evidence -- at least perhaps under other numbers
11 as well, but 64A is 738, so it doesn't need a number to be assigned.
12 Then we have J, document J, that should be a letter of the Serbian
13 people from Radovica sent to the Skupstina opstina Pale, also dated the
14 25th of June, with -- and there I -- Mr. Josse, I see some handwriting on
15 it, but it's cut off at the bottom with a date on it, the 25th of August,
16 1992. And it's not clear to me whether that's -- has any relevance to the
17 documents. Could you please have a look at that?
18 MR. JOSSE: Yes. We'll check to see if we've got a better copy.
19 That's the best I can do.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we provisionally, then, assign the next
21 number. That would be, Mr. Registrar?
22 THE REGISTRAR: D204, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: 204.
24 K, document of the 2nd of July, says that it's a decision of the
25 MUP in Pale. Yes, that would be D?
1 THE REGISTRAR: 205, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: 205.
3 L is badly legible, but it seems to be an exchange contract
4 Crncalo --
5 MR. JOSSE: But it's clearly important. I fear it's going to be
6 sent back from the CLSS. Could it be given a number at this stage?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, provisionally we'll assign a number.
8 THE REGISTRAR: D206, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D206.
10 MR. JOSSE: We've already asked the CLSS to translate as much as
11 they possibly can.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there would be any better copy, of course,
13 that would be preferred.
14 I take it that the next -- the -- is that the back of the
15 document? It seems that it's --
16 MR. JOSSE: Yes --
17 JUDGE ORIE: There's a stamp on it, and it --
18 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour's right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- and it's -- it gives same names, at least one of
20 the names -- no, two names on it -- yes, all the names of those who appear
21 on the -- on the front also appear on the back, as far as I can see.
22 Okay. That's -- we take it at this moment that that's the back of the
23 same page?
24 MR. JOSSE: That's what Mr. Sladojevic tells me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that is part of the document. It doesn't
1 need -- then document M is a list of registered contracts. No date on it,
2 although the entries often are of 1992, at least at the first page. That
3 would be, Mr. Registrar?
4 THE REGISTRAR: D207, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 207. And it seems that the last -- may I just ask
6 you, Mr. Josse, it looks as if it's one page out of a register containing
7 the number 771 up to and including 775. The second page, I take it, is
8 the -- is the right-hand side of that same document. Is that how I should
9 understand it? Yes, it very much seems because we have --
10 MR. JOSSE: That --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- columns 1 to 4 on the first page, and 5 to 8 on
12 the second one. And then finally we'd --
13 MR. JOSSE: We'd invite the Court to infer that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we have, finally, a last page with a
15 stamp on it which seems to be related to that, because it seems to be some
16 stamp of -- at least it comes from Pale. And the date, 22nd of February,
17 2005, is the date. So we take that to be part of document D207.
18 Then we go to the next one which is N, 6th of July, 1992, decision
19 of the MUP of Pale.
20 Mr. Registrar, that would be ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: D208, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Next one, document 6th of July, 1992, report of the
23 Pale MUP regarding the verification of place of residence of Muslim and
24 Croat citizens. Yes, that would be D ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: 209, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: 209.
2 Next one being document P, 6th of July, 1992, conclusions of the
3 Pale Executive Committee. That would be D ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: D210, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just have a look. Yes.
6 Mr. Josse, perhaps with the assistance of Mr. Sladojevic, I see
7 two signatures with what seems to be people with different -- from
8 different organisations, apart from, of course, their names being -- it's
9 described here as conclusions of the Pale Executive Committee. The first
10 seems to say something of the president of this and this and this, and
11 then the second is something like the commander of what seems to be this
12 staff, but not the usual Crisis Staff.
13 Could we just -- could I just check whether the description that
14 is -- these are conclusions of the Pale Executive Committee is --
15 MR. JOSSE: Would you like Mr. Sladojevic to read the B/C/S?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to read slowly just the two -- the -- the two
17 lines, two times, in capitals above the names of those two signed it.
18 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "President of the Executive
19 Committee. Commander of the staff of the civilian protection."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then as a matter of fact, on the top of the
21 document it's -- from what I see it just says that it's the Serbian
22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina opstina Pale, without -- no, I see
23 that -- and then there's one line under that which may identify the body
24 from which it -- could Mr. Sladojevic read that as well, which -- just the
25 third line from the top, under opstina Pale it reads --
1 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "Executive Committee."
2 JUDGE ORIE: That has been clarified, so signed by two persons of
3 different bodies, but at the top the Executive Committee.
4 That, Mr. Registrar, would be D ...
5 THE REGISTRAR: 211, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 211.
7 Next document would be under Q, date is 7th of July, 1992,
8 described as information of the Pale Executive Committee. Yes, we see
9 that's the same at the top. Sent to the Pale war commission to be handed
10 over to Mrs. Plavsic. That would be D ...
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, the number I just -- Mr. Registrar just gave
13 for the document which -- we find under P should be 210.
14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And then under Q it would be 211, I take it,
16 Mr. Registrar?
17 THE REGISTRAR: 211, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: 211.
19 And then we go to what we find with an R on
20 it. We leave all the letters on it. They are added by the Defence,
21 otherwise we have to take them out again, but that's --
22 MR. JOSSE: That's right, they're purely there for identification.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So R would be ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: 212, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: 212. It's a document of the 10th of July, 1992,
1 described as a conclusion of the Pale Executive Committee.
2 Then under S we find a document, 14th of July, 1992, also from the
3 Pale Executive Committee conclusion would be D ...
4 THE REGISTRAR: 213, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: 213.
6 Then under T we find a document with the same description but now
7 from the 16th of July, 1992, would be ...
8 THE REGISTRAR: D214, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 214.
10 Then under U we find a document dated the 10th of August, 1992,
11 from the Pale SO, stands for Skupstina opstina, I take it, yes, which is a
12 decision on giving -- of temporary use of free, deserted, and unlawfully
13 occupied houses. That would be ...
14 THE REGISTRAR: D215, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 215.
16 And, finally last one under V is a document dated the 21st of
17 October, 1992. It again is a conclusion originating from the Pale
18 Executive Committee.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Josse --
20 THE REGISTRAR: That would be ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I forgot, Mr. --
22 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D216, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D216.
24 I take it that translations will be provided as soon as possible?
25 MR. JOSSE: That's right.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And the Prosecution will have an opportunity to
2 object once we have received that. Fortunately here the availability of
3 the witness at a later stage might not be that much of a problem if any
4 further questions would be -- would have to be put to the witness in
5 respect of these documents.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
7 MR. JOSSE:
8 Q. The next matter I'd like to clear up, Mr. Krajisnik, is this:
9 Yesterday you mentioned a document or a report prepared by the government
10 of Bosnia and Herzegovina which dealt with comparative indicators of
11 population, and that is also on the learned Judges' bench. Could you be
12 given a copy of it, please.
13 If I may briefly explain the position. It's right, isn't it, that
14 this, in fact, is a brochure which you obtained through your own means.
15 It is a brochure that is in both B/C/S and English. We have only copied
16 the English part of it. No doubt you can make available the B/C/S part.
17 MR. TIEGER: We either do not have it or have insufficient
18 information to identify it. Perhaps we can have an ERN number or some
19 more specific --
20 MR. JOSSE: It has no ERN number. I've made arrangements for it
21 to be supplied to my learned friends by their office first thing this
23 MR. TIEGER: That helped, thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: From a distance, I see that it's the same document as
25 the Judges have.
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. So, Mr. Krajisnik, it's right that we only have the English here,
3 and I suspect you haven't brought the original with you. There's no
4 reason why you should, because you didn't know I was going to deal with it
5 today. The reason I'm dealing with it today is you mentioned it
6 yesterday. What do you want the Chamber to use it for, please?
7 A. I want to draw attention to the fact that this was a brochure
8 issued by the official government of Bosnia-Herzegovina dealing with
9 movements of the population. It can be very useful when drawing
10 conclusions on the part of the Trial Chamber.
11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could it have a number, please?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D217, Your Honours.
14 MR. JOSSE: If the Trial Chamber requires, at least for the
15 registry version, the B/C/S part of this brochure, I'll need to ask
16 Mr. Krajisnik to provide it to the Defence team and we will copy it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm also now looking at the Prosecution. We see that
18 we have a cover page which, even in a similar layout, gives the content of
19 it. Does the Prosecution wish this document to -- which is mainly a
20 matter of -- no, not all of it, so some text in it as well. The major
21 part of it are statistics, from what I can see, to receive that in B/C/S
22 as well? Yes?
23 MR. TIEGER: I think we can -- I mean, at the moment I can see no
24 reason why we would make that request, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you'll have an opportunity to further -- it
1 may come as a surprise at this moment, this document. Well, let's say,
2 for whatever reasons, because you think that the English version does not
3 correspond with the original, could we hear from you, well, whether we
4 would say not any later than ten days from now?
5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I can direct the Court's attention to
6 the portion behind the green page, I think that --
7 JUDGE ORIE: You have a green page, we do not have a green page.
8 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Then apparently we have a B/C/S copy.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You have the B/C/S? Then you have an opportunity to
10 see -- because otherwise it has to be copied again and it saves half a
11 wood, if you would be happy with the English.
12 MR. TIEGER: Well, I stand corrected, but my -- the original
13 position is maintained the -- what appeared to be a B/C/S version
14 contained a B/C/S cover page and the rest of the document appears to be
15 essentially the same. So nevertheless -- so one doesn't appear to exist,
16 but as I said before, at the moment I can't see that such a request would
17 be made.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any wish should be presented within ten days.
19 Mr. Josse.
20 MR. JOSSE:
21 Q. Unless there is something particular, Mr. Krajisnik, you wish to
22 draw to the Trial Chamber's attention about this brochure, I'm going to
23 move on to the Davidovic documents --
24 JUDGE ORIE: At a certain moment, I take it, Mr. Josse, the
25 Chamber will better understand what it has to do with it because we will
1 not learn by heart all the numbers, and these are statistics which are --
2 well, not only about what has been the -- one of the subjects of the
3 testimony that is in the composition of the population, but also on a lot
4 of events that happened after the armed conflict, from what I see, such as
5 reconstruction of destroyed houses, et cetera, et cetera. So I don't know
6 exactly what we have to do with that at this moment, but we'll learn that,
7 I take it, at a later stage?
8 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. JOSSE:
11 Q. Unless there's anything you want to add now, Mr. Krajisnik?
12 A. Yes. I'm really sorry I haven't brought the original brochure.
13 You have a copy and I have a copy. It would be quite in order if a copy
14 was given to the OTP and to the Trial Chamber.
15 Yesterday I spoke --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it seems that everyone for the time
17 being accepts that there is a B/C/S original, which we can't read anyhow,
18 so please tell us what you'd like to tell us about it.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would be easier for me if I had
20 the B/C/S. That's the problem, but very well.
21 MR. JOSSE:
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Krajisnik. I'm sure
23 Mr. Stewart will give me a few minutes tomorrow to return to this
24 document. So put it away. You can bring the original brochure and we'll
25 deal with this tomorrow. Okay?
1 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that the untranslated parts that we
2 learn about that as well, so I see the word "sovozverno" [phoen] appearing
3 a lot of times, which I do not know what it is, some of the statistics.
4 MR. JOSSE:
5 Q. If you bring your -- the original, Mr. Krajisnik, tomorrow, I will
6 ask you some questions about it then.
7 Let's move on then, please, to the documents that have been
8 provided in relation to Mr. Davidovic. Could you be handed a bundle of
10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the translations have been done by a
11 member of our team, not Mr. Sladojevic for what it's worth. We accept
12 these translations are not perfect, and if these documents are going to be
13 admitted into evidence, they're going to clearly need to go to the CLSS.
14 Now, Your Honour, we had got to the point in relation to this where there
15 was some discussion between the parties and the Trial Chamber as to what
16 to do with these documents in the light of how the cross-examination of
17 Mr. Davidovic had proceeded. It is the second document in this bundle,
18 which has 2 at the right-hand corner, the B/C/S original which is on the
19 other side of the page, on the back of it, so to speak, that I suspect
20 Mr. Krajisnik particularly wants to comment upon. I would invite him to
21 comment upon it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first see whether we have the -- we don't
23 have any 2 on it.
24 MR. JOSSE: 2 at the bottom of the page in the English --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, on the English. That's authorisation --
1 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- 17th of February, 19 --
3 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- apart from whether there would be any
5 objections at a later stage, Mr. Tieger, you're on your feet.
6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. This document -- I believe this is
7 the document was the subject of at least some discussion between Mr. Josse
8 and myself. Mr. Josse indicated that he -- at that time he wanted to
9 consider the -- one way or another the possible introduction of this
10 document and that -- but we would at that point have -- possibly have
11 further discussion about it.
12 If, indeed, this is the document, I simply -- I'd like to know
13 that. There's no point in having a discussion about it with the witness
14 if the -- if -- and thereafter have a question -- a discussion about its
15 admissibility. So I don't want to put -- I don't think we should put the
16 cart before the horse, if indeed that is the document which has been the
17 subject of our discussion. I believe it is.
18 MR. JOSSE: Let me interrupt. I'm in no doubt that this is the
19 document that Mr. Krajisnik attempted to put to Mr. Davidovic and
20 Ms. Loukas commented on -- the passage in the transcript, Your Honour,
21 alluded to are referred to, in fact, a few days ago. I'm in no doubt
22 about that.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Without giving a final decision on whether the
25 Chamber will admit this document in evidence, yes or no, whether --
1 without giving any final decision on whether that, for example, would be
2 under the condition that the other witness would have to re-appear, we'll
3 consider that, but we do not stop at this moment, Mr. Josse, in
4 introducing the document with this proviso.
5 Mr. Josse.
6 MR. JOSSE:
7 Q. Before it's given a number, because it may in fact be better to
8 give the documents numbers in chronological order, comment on this
9 document dated the 17th of February, 1994. Why do you say it's
11 A. It's significant because it's linked to this first document.
12 Mr. Djurkovic was authorised in 1994 to carry out exchanges of the
13 civilian population and prisoners, as far as I can recall. The request
14 for this to be his work obligation is dated 10th of July, 1993. Before
15 that, he could not have engaged in this activity. The authorisation was
16 signed by the government commissioner of Republika Srpska and the state
17 commission for exchanges, people's deputy, Milan Tesic, and it bears the
18 government stamp. It also states that in the heading.
19 The next document from the same time period is signed by the same
20 person and bears the same stamp. So he couldn't have been doing that in
21 1992, but only after he got this work obligation. I wanted to show all
22 three documents to the witness, but first I wanted him to see this
23 authorisation and to say whether this is, indeed, the relevant document.
24 MR. JOSSE: Could those first three documents have numbers then,
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That would be 218, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: 218 for the document dated the 10th of July, 1993,
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document dated the 17th February, 1994, Your
6 Honours, would be D219.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. And then --
8 THE REGISTRAR: The third one dated 18th November, 1994, would
9 be D220.
10 MR. JOSSE:
11 Q. That takes us, Mr. Krajisnik, to the next document in the bundle,
12 which is dated the 4th of July of 1995. What, if anything, is of
13 significance of that? It's the one that's a request for Muslim
14 civilians --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- in the corridor of Tuzla.
17 A. This refers to the commission submitting a request to the corps in
18 Bijeljina, that is to say, to the Army of Republika Srpska, to its
19 commander, Novica Simic, for him to make it possible for them to allow the
20 civilian Muslim population to go from Tuzla to Bijeljina. There is an
21 explanation here and a signature -- or rather, signatures of the members
22 of the commission. So this is, by way of an example, as to how they
24 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please?
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D221, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 MR. JOSSE:
3 Q. And then we have, in fact, a document going back almost two years
4 in time, the 4th of September, 1993, which is again a transit document
5 signed by Colonel Tomic. What does that show?
6 A. Yes, that shows that at that time the central commission gave its
7 approval to the regional commission for a convoy to pass through their
8 territory. This does not directly relate to this Djurkovic, although that
9 is what is handwritten. But this is an example as to how this convoy
10 could go through the territory. The commission had probably existed even
11 before Mr. Djurkovic became involved in this work.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D222, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 MR. JOSSE:
17 Q. And finally, Mr. Krajisnik, there is a document in fact signed by
18 Mr. Davidovic dated the 30th of June, 1992. Is this a document you want
19 to bring to the Trial Chamber's attention?
20 A. Our investigators got this document from Bijeljina, I don't know
21 from who, and it gives an answer to a question that was put by the Trial
22 Chamber. It has to do with seized cars and how they were allocated. The
23 signature here is of Mr. Davidovic, that he, as chief of police of the
24 Serb MUP, that's what it says here, Milorad Davidovic, that he allocated
25 this seized car to be used for the needs of the Serb MUP of
2 This is very important. In June 1992, according to all available
3 data, he was not the chief; at least that's what he said. He was not the
4 chief in Bijeljina but he was, as he had put it, the representative of
5 Serbia. But here it says that he is the chief of the police of the Serb
6 MUP, who is giving his approval for this seized car. A scene-of-crime
7 technician had examined it and inspected it and probably thought that it
8 had been stolen or something like that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, where does the document say that it's
10 a seized motor car?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it says here: Report
12 of -- a crime technician's report on the examination of a car. It says on
13 the 30th of June, 1992, the chief of police asked for a criminal technical
14 examination of a passenger vehicle and to establish the type, make, the
15 number of chassis and so on. This is to say that if it was being
16 processed in this way that this had to do with a seized car that was of
17 unknown provenance. So all of this had to be established in order to know
18 what this was all about. He carried this out, and he, indeed, established
19 this what that was all about.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that is true or not is another matter, but at
21 least the document doesn't say so, but it's your interpretation of this
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's my interpretation,
24 and that is what was stated by those who sent it out to us, but whether
25 that was actually the case can be established by some experts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
2 MR. JOSSE: Could that have a number, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 30th of June, 1992, Your
4 Honours, would be D223.
5 MR. JOSSE: Could I just ask about translations. Presumably the
6 Trial Chamber would like these sent to the CLSS to be officially
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it is to be preferred that we have an
9 official translation of these documents.
10 MR. JOSSE: We'll do that.
11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you can put those documents away; I'm going to move
12 to a completely different topic. And this relates to the departure of the
13 Serbs from Sarajevo after Dayton.
14 There was a witness who appeared before this Chamber who alleged
15 that you encouraged Serbs to leave, and this witness suggested you even
16 encouraged them to take their graves and traffic signs with them. What do
17 you say on this topic?
18 A. It would be a good thing if we were to place the map of Sarajevo
19 here to show where the lines are. It would be easier for the Trial
20 Chamber to understand. I have the map and I think you have it, too, what
21 Muslim Sarajevo was and what Serb Sarajevo was.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think there's one map in evidence giving the --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that would be good, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know exactly which number it was, but it was
25 not long ago introduced from --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Perhaps a few days ago.
2 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, it was the map that was used in
3 explaining to us what the roads were between Pale and Lukavica.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right.
5 MR. JOSSE: I don't have an up-to-date Defence exhibit list.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the map I had in mind. It's --
7 Mr. Krajisnik, I think it was Mr. Krajisnik who had drawn these lines
8 which come close to Grbavica and the other road, the road through the
9 woods, which was more southerly. It was marked ...
10 MR. JOSSE: We think it might be D190.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- yes, that's the map. Could it be put on
12 the ELMO, and we ignore just for the time being the roads and just look at
13 the confrontation lines that were already on the map. So we --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the central part of
15 Sarajevo. This is the part that was held by the Muslim forces. Around is
16 the periphery that was held by the Serbs. And the outskirts of the
17 central part of Sarajevo, that is what was called Serb Sarajevo.
18 This part, the northern part, is the part where many Serbs from
19 Central Bosnia came to. So out of 50 -- out of a population of 50.000,
20 this population grew to, say, 70.000. Most of the Serbs out of 130, and
21 at the plebiscite there were 180, were in the central part of Sarajevo,
23 On the periphery there were less Serbs because these are villages.
24 And when Dayton came -- or rather, when the Dayton Agreement was signed,
25 we possessed the periphery. And the central part was actually under the
1 authority of Muslims. Everybody left Sarajevo, those who were under the
2 Muslim government and those who were under the Serb government.
3 The only thing that we advocated was that the Serbs who were in
4 the Serb part of Sarajevo should stay on because we did not have any
5 contact with the Serbs from the central part of Sarajevo, and we also
6 didn't know how they felt. A referendum was held in these peripheral
7 parts where people wanted to remain under their own government, their
8 local government. And that is why what some witnesses said is not true,
9 that any one of us called for the Serbs to leave.
10 Because this witness, who was a protected one, could have been
11 asked the following question: Well, you were there where 90 per cent of
12 the pre-war Serbs were. Why did those Serbs from your part of Sarajevo
13 leave Sarajevo? You received information today that on the entire
14 territory of Sarajevo there is 10 to 12.000. So we were not in contact
15 with these Serbs and we didn't stop them either. We didn't ask them to
16 stay in Sarajevo, but they left nevertheless. I said why the other ones
17 left. But in the central part there were about 100.000 Serbs there before
18 1992. They left because they wanted to leave Sarajevo at all costs, not
19 to be under the Muslim authorities, because during the war, as they said,
20 they experienced some terrible things.
21 I said that nowadays -- or rather, precisely today the Serb
22 representatives don't want to attend the Assembly meeting. They want a
23 commission to be activated, to activate a commission on the investigation
24 of what happened to Serbs during the war in this Muslim area. There is a
25 list of 3.000 missing Serbs from Sarajevo. And 10.000 are still being
1 looked for. I have exact information on who was taken away and how.
2 As for this part, Serb Sarajevo, those parts that were supposed to
3 come under the Muslim government, too, you have a video-recording here,
4 too, my press conference and of Admiral Layton Smith. We just asked for
5 an extension of time by six months so that people would feel safe, because
6 everybody actually wanted to stay on, but they asked to have a local
7 government of their own.
8 There is a document. Well, this all went slowly. Why? First
9 those who came from the central part of Bosnia-Herzegovina left, those who
10 came to this Serb part, and they were the first to leave as soon as Dayton
11 was signed. There were columns of people leaving, and we kept asking
12 people to stay on.
13 There was this conference in London that was attended by Mr.
14 Aleksa Buha. There is a document to that effect. He asked them to give
15 us a solution based on what was agreed upon in Dayton, before the final
16 solution, and what had been agreed on, that all of Sarajevo should remain
17 united, that it should be transformed and turned into a district. The
18 Muslim side didn't want to accept that. They wanted their own government
19 to take these parts urgently. Therefore, we did not meet with
20 understanding, so in order not to have someone say that we allowed the
21 Serbs to leave Sarajevo, the city Assembly had a meeting and adopted a
22 document. It is everyone's own free will as to whether they want to stay
23 or whether they want to leave, and the majority left Sarajevo.
24 That is why it is completely incorrect that any one of us
25 instigated the Serbs to leave.
1 Your Honours, it is being bandied about in the public that Momcilo
2 Krajisnik said: When you leave, even take traffic signs with you. That
3 is a pure fabrication.
4 In Hadzici, the president of the municipality, who reached an
5 agreement with Bratunac that the entire municipality would move to
6 Bratunac, said at a big rally: We are going to take even traffic signs.
7 When I was persuading the Serbs to stay on I said: Be patient,
8 stay on, things will get better. This is what this gentleman said,
9 Mr. Ratko Radic. As he said: When you leave you can take traffic signs,
10 I meant it figuratively, but don't leave, stay there.
11 So please, this map is important. That's where all the
12 intelligentsia was, all the intellectuals were. After Belgrade, this was
13 the major Serb intellectual centre, so the Serb National Council was here
14 that was headed by Mr. Mirko Pejanovic. They could have done whatever
15 they wanted to to keep people there, but everybody left except for a few
16 individual cases, a few percentage points, if I can put it that way. They
17 went to this side, this other side, and in Dayton we didn't want to have a
18 divided city; now the city is divided, unjustly, but there is this Serb
19 part, whereas all the rest is the Muslim part. And there aren't any
20 Croats or Serbs there. The city of Sarajevo is monolithic, except for
21 individual cases that they are presenting as show cases now in order to
22 show their multi-ethnicity in this way.
23 So this is an example, the Serbs had a choice: To stay or to
24 leave. They were not expelled by the Muslims, but they had some kind of
25 fear and you could not keep people there even theoretically. I don't
1 think that somebody expelled them from Sarajevo, because it would have
2 been 100 times better for them to stay on in Sarajevo rather than live, as
3 they do nowadays, as refugees, under difficult conditions.
4 So this is the whole truth. All these documents are there, so
5 please have a look at them.
6 You will see what the solution for Sarajevo was in Dayton as well.
7 I want to say for the sake of the truth that our delegation had agreed
8 with Mr. Holbrooke on a solution for Sarajevo, and one night it was
9 changed. And I don't think it would be right for me to talk about that
10 now, why this kind of solution was provided for Sarajevo.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it was a very long answer. Could I have a
12 few precise questions.
13 You were talking about the plebiscite. What plebiscite held at
14 what time? No further explanation, just when approximately and what was
15 the subject.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the end of 1995, the Serbs from
17 the Serb part of Sarajevo expressed their views as to whether they would
18 stay or whether they would leave -- or actually whether they wanted to
19 have their own government. I don't know what the question was, but at any
20 rate they had a plebiscite. It was a kind of referendum.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's one.
22 And second, do I understand that those Serbs who were living in
23 Serb-controlled area were encouraged to stay? I understood that to be
24 irrespective of whether they had lived there all of their lives or whether
25 they were from other origin? And second, Serbs living in
1 Muslim-controlled areas were not encouraged to leave that area. Is that,
2 of course very brief, the bottom line of your answer?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had contact with Serbs in the
4 Serb part of Sarajevo, and we besieged them to stay on. We did not have
5 contact with Serbs in the Muslim part of Sarajevo, so we were not saying
6 that they should stay or that they should leave because we did not have
7 any contact with them. I went to different rallies, so I spoke to people.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
9 MR. JOSSE:
10 Q. What about the suggestion Serbs removed the graves of their dead?
11 A. Well, this is a big sin in Christianity, to move graves. People
12 were carrying graves. They transferred them to Serb territory. My late
13 wife is still in the same grave that is behind Zabrdje.
14 If I were instigating someone to do that kind of thing, first I
15 would have exhumed my wife. It is still there with a broken tombstone,
16 broken by some irresponsible individuals. But every family -- or not
17 every family, many families exhumed their dead, especially the fighters
18 who got killed, and they transferred them to Serb territory. It's not
19 only my wife, but all the deceased Krajisniks are still there, except for
20 one person.
21 MR. JOSSE: Would that be a convenient moment, Your Honour? I
22 know it's a little early, but it would give the Defence a chance to
23 regroup, so to speak?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's no problem. We'll adjourn until quarter
25 to 6.00.
1 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to go and see Mr. Krajisnik about the double
3 JUDGE ORIE: This is approved.
4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
8 MR. JOSSE:
9 Q. I'd now like to -- you've something you'd like to say,
10 Mr. Krajisnik?
11 A. May I just add one thing in connection with Sarajevo, please, very
12 briefly? Excuse me, but this is a map of Bosnia-Herzegovina. By your
13 leave --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this part here was
16 given to the Serbs by Dayton. This part here to the Croats. After the
17 Dayton Accord, all these people moved, the Croats and Muslims, from here,
18 and the Serbs from here, the Serbs from Sarajevo, although the NATO pact
19 arrived. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
21 MR. JOSSE: This is the map from the brochure, D217, for the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we recognise that.
24 MR. JOSSE:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I would like to turn to intercepts. Do you
1 still have your bundle of intercepts? And I would like to turn to the
2 intercept that bears the Defence tab number 193. It is P292, KID31469.
3 It's a conversation between you and Mr. Mandic on the 25th of June, 1992.
4 And on the second page in English, towards the top of the page, Mr. Mandic
5 says: "Mr. President."
6 You say: "Yes."
7 He says: "The first part has been mopped up. It was done today."
8 You say: "Did they leave?"
9 He says: "Yes, it's been mopped up."
10 You say: "Huh?"
11 He says: "The first part has been mopped up.".
12 Can you help the Chamber -- two regards, I'm going to ask two
13 questions, if I may, at the same time. First of all, what is he referring
14 to; and secondly, what does he mean when he used the word -- or the
15 expression "mopped up"?
16 A. This is military terminology, meaning that there had been some
17 fighting, and now he thinks that this has been mopped up; in other words,
18 that the opposite sides soldiers are no longer there. This is a little
19 bit mixed up. It's very hard for me to see this.
20 Q. On the 28th of September of 2004 --
21 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, sorry before we go on.
22 I -- just for the record my interpretation of the intercept
23 indicates -- it lists -- it indicates clearly and specifically the word in
24 B/C/S and then the English is "mopped up" or "cleansed" to reflect the
25 possibilities for that translation. And I think the record should reflect
1 it that the intercept bears that translation.
2 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I'm afraid I don't have that, and I'm very
3 grateful to my learned friend, and clearly that's very important. Bearing
4 in mind that was the purpose of the question, I'm grateful to him.
5 Could -- I don't know if my learned friend's version is unmarked.
6 If it is, I would ask that it be put on the ELMO.
7 MR. TIEGER: I'm just going to double-check to make sure it is.
8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just also zoom in first on the numbers at
10 the top of the page to see whether they are different? Could I please ...
11 MR. JOSSE: They are not different.
12 JUDGE ORIE: They are the same, but nevertheless there's a
13 different text, isn't it?
14 MR. JOSSE: It is a different text.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have under the same number different
16 documents, which is not something I'm very pleased with. I would like to
17 check this is material that is already in evidence.
18 Mr. Registrar, could you provide us with P29 -- let me just check
19 what we have here --
20 MR. JOSSE: Could I give one other reference whilst that is being
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. JOSSE: Because I was going to do this anyway. It was played
24 to this court on the 28th of September, 2004, at page 6228 of the
25 transcript during the course of the evidence of Mr. Kljujic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let's first see what we find in P292.
2 Please continue meanwhile, Mr. --
3 MR. JOSSE:
4 Q. Well, let me go on then, Mr. Krajisnik, because what Mr. Kljujic
5 said about this was -- he used it in some way to support the proposition
6 that you had knowledge that ethnic cleansing was taking place, placing
7 some reliance, as I understand it, on the word that is causing all the
8 difficulty. What do you say about Mr. Kljujic's proposition?
9 A. It would be a good thing to read out the entire intercepted
10 conversation, and I will reply.
11 What the Prosecutor said, this first part, "ociscen" before that,
12 I said: Has he gone, has it gone? Because the purpose of my conversation
13 with Mandic was to ask him whether he had done anything about the
14 departure of that family mentioned before, Savic, Milos, and so on. He
15 was talking to me about one thing, and I was talking to him about another
16 thing, and that was to save the people who had been imprisoned on the
17 Muslim side. I said "gone," he said "ociscen." I cannot connect what
18 he's talking about to what I'm talking about. I know the reason I called
20 There's something here in code, and I'm thinking about what it is
21 he's saying. I'm intervening for the family of Milos Savic - he was the
22 secretary of the Assembly - here. I'm speaking to him all the time.
23 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I have no further questions on the
24 intercept, as such.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
1 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
2 Q. Could we go, please, to the last intercept in this bundle. This
3 is P389, KID31492. It's a conversation between you and your brother on
4 the 10th of July of 1992. As far as the Defence are aware, this has never
5 been played to the Court or, indeed, commented upon.
6 Mr. Krajisnik, on the first page in the English we see that you
7 ask your brother -- and I'm clarifying -- and I'm summarising here - about
8 the fact you've heard some corpses were -- had been found, Serb corpses.
9 You asked him: Where are they?
10 And he said: Well, the Miljacka brought that down the Bosna
11 estuary, some of it even into the Bosna and so ...
12 You asked: Have they found ...
13 And he said: Well, yeah, they found it. They allegedly went
14 there on a shooting. I didn't see that, but I heard.
15 What's that a reference to?
16 A. This is a reference to a small river called the Miljacka which
17 flowed to Sarajevo and flowed into the river Bosna in the Rajlovac area.
18 As it says here, several corpses floated down this little river up to
19 Rajlovac, which means that they had been thrown into the water. They were
20 dead. They had been killed, and the corpses came from Sarajevo.
21 Q. Over the page we see a reference to someone called Torana. Who
22 was Torana?
23 A. Torana -- Zoran you mean. Can you just tell me where this is --
24 oh, no, Tarana, Tarana. This is a typo, Torana. This was someone who had
25 a video camera. He was supposed to film something, and he was killed
1 during the war. I think he was working in SRNA for the television -- or I
2 don't know exactly where.
3 Q. There is some reference a few lines further on to Radovanovic, and
4 your brother is then giving you some information about Radovanovic. Who
5 was Radovanovic?
6 A. Miroslav Radovanovic was supposed to be the commissioner for
7 Rajlovac, Ilidza, and I don't know what other place. He was appointed as
8 such. This is about him.
9 Q. And your brother seems to be telling you various things about him.
10 Why is your brother having to tell you things surrounding and to do with a
12 A. There's a telephone conversation where my brother tells me we have
13 received the decision, but Radovanovic has not arrived. Can you get him
14 to come? And I said I'll try. And this Miro was there, and he wanted to
15 put me in contact with him because he was having some kind of problem.
16 And I said: Leave that alone now. Let's talk about other things. And I
17 spoke to Miro very briefly, as can be seen here, because -- about a
18 certain issue because my brother wanted to inform me about the following.
19 A delegation from Rajlovac wanted to come to Pale, and my brother says
20 now: Miro thinks they shouldn't come. And here let him in consult you.
21 And I said: Miro, you settle this, you're the commissioner, and that was
22 the end of the conversation. I wasn't talking to him as a commissioner, I
23 was talking to him because of the contact with my brother. And he was
24 there, and he wanted to hear my opinion as to whether this delegation
25 should go to Pale or not.
1 Q. If we go to the last page we see that you said, towards the
2 end: "Such an agreement would be good, even if it became public, you
3 know. That there's talk of the negotiations beginning and so ... That
4 would be good. That would be useful.
5 Mirko: Because the reason why I'm telling you is that there is a
6 good reason to light up the people here, petitions are being collected,
7 and so.
8 Momcilo: Yeah.
9 Mirko: Yeah.
10 Momcilo: All right. That's fine. You go on and make the contact
11 and talk. That is not a problem I need to speak to."
12 What negotiations was there talk of beginning?
13 A. UNPROFOR, because there's an airport at Rajlovac, wanted to have
14 their helicopters there. The population thought they were going to occupy
15 the garrison and drive them out, so a petition was being signed against
16 this. The late Mr. Nikola Koljevic was talking with General McKenzie.
17 And there's another conversation about this, it's about the
18 dissatisfaction of the people. A tense situation had arisen. My brother
19 says it would be a good idea to have an agreement with the Muslim side,
20 and their representative was this Semso, because on our side there are
21 various people who are inflamed, meaning they could do something reckless.
22 And what was very important for us was to have peace. Different people
23 were spreading this information, saying: We are at war with the Muslims
24 and we shouldn't have any kind of local agreement with them, we should
25 simply wage war. These were not numerous, these people, they weren't the
1 decision-makers, but they were there. And now this Semso turned up, and
2 you saw when Mr. Sinisa Krsman was testifying here that there was always a
3 line between the Muslims and the Serbs and that was this Semso. At one
4 point it had been cut off because of the military activity. And now Semso
5 was asking whether they wanted an agreement on the cessation of
6 hostilities. And although I was not authorised to do so, I told them: Do
7 this and publish it, so that everybody will see it's possible to have a
8 local agreement rather than fighting.
9 I don't know what they did later on, but peace was maintained for
10 a long time. And I can say that the local people at Sokolje would not
11 have fought the Muslims, but then another shift would arrive from
12 elsewhere. And the local people would even tell the people from Zabrdje:
13 Watch out because next week it will not be us standing guard but some
14 people from elsewhere. And that's how more than two-thirds of Zabrdje was
15 taken by the Muslims.
16 Q. I'm going to move away from the intercepts, and what I would now
17 like to do is ask you about a number of Prosecution witnesses. By reason
18 of time restriction, I'm not going to be in the position, for the most
19 part, to put to you what these various witnesses have said about you and,
20 in particular, against you during the course of their evidence. What I'd
21 like you to do, Mr. Krajisnik, is give the Chamber a thumbnail sketch of
22 your assessment back in 1991/1992 of these various people, and I'd like to
23 begin, first of all, with Mr. Djokanovic.
24 A. I'm glad you asked about Djokanovic first. I know everything
25 Djokanovic said here before this Tribunal, and I can answer every
1 question -- or rather, with respect to every question I can tell you why
2 it's not correct. And I can point you to a document which will confirm
4 Mr. Djokanovic first said that on the 10th of June he arrived in
5 Pale, and then that he stayed at Pale for a day or two. And he knows who
6 the members of the Presidency are and he says I was one of them. He
7 couldn't have known this because he wasn't there before the 10th of June.
8 And then he went out into the field and visited six municipalities where
9 he set up commissions and he returned. And around the 15th or 16th of
10 June he came back. He had been to Sekovici, Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac,
11 and Skelani. And there are decisions showing that he was the president
12 and the others were members. In Zvornik he ousted the president of the
13 municipality, and then Mr. Karadzic restored him.
14 When he arrived on the 15th or 16th of June - he doesn't know
15 precisely when - he says that he told the leadership that terrible things
16 had happened in Zvornik, and he said he had told me this, too. On the
17 15th of June, in the minutes of the government where there was discussion
18 of the situation in SAO Birac and a delegation was sent to investigate --
19 you can find those minutes.
20 On the 30th of June, Mr. Djokanovic met Mr. Karadzic and
21 Mr. Mladic in Zvornik. And, had anything happened, he could have
22 discussed it with them, but he says nothing was discussed.
23 In Han Pijesak and later on in Zvornik, there was the supreme
24 military court. He could have reported any incidents to that court. He
25 mentions the Assembly where there was a session a year later, and I can
1 point you to the precise place, where as a member of the government he
2 came into conflict with a deputy from Zvornik. This deputy said that he
3 had accused him of genocide. He said, very decidedly, that it was not
4 true that there had been a genocide and that it wasn't true that the
5 Serbian people are genocidal. You can see that in the Assembly where he
6 is a deputy.
7 If he had wanted to establish something or correct something, as a
8 member of the government towards the end of 1992 he had the opportunity to
9 investigate everything through the Ministry of Justice and the MUP. He
10 could have investigated everything and established the truth. I guarantee
11 that he never told me a single thing, nor do I know anything about this
12 visit of his. He said that on the 10th of June or as of the 10th of June
13 he was under my jurisdiction, I was in charge of him. From the 25th to
14 the 27th of June you have a document where the late Mr. Koljevic signed a
15 decision for Mrs. Plavsic appointing her. He was in charge of
16 commissioners at the time.
17 What is true is the following: A man from a family I know arrived
18 from new Sarajevo. His name was Radan. I knew him, and he came together
19 with him. And he was saying that there were problems in new Sarajevo. As
20 I knew the man and Djokanovic was there, Djokanovic said to me: Would it
21 be a good idea, as I hail from Novo Sarajevo, from Grbavica, for me to go
22 there and find out what it's about? And I said it would be an excellent
23 idea for the two you to go and see what's going on.
24 After that, you have a decision signed by Mr. Karadzic where it
25 says "commissioner." It doesn't say "Djokanovic," but "at the proposal of
1 Mr. Djokanovic," and there were members of the commission. Allegedly he
2 was the president of the commission.
3 You remember Mr. Radomir Neskovic who says he doesn't remember
4 when he arrived in Novo Sarajevo. That was my role. Those were my only
5 dealings with Mr. Djokanovic. And I had another meeting with him. He
6 came with somebody from abroad. I have noted it down somewhere. I was
7 sitting there, and there was a man who was an acquaintance of his, and he
8 had brought him to see me. I had no other contacts with him.
9 Before the war he closely collaborated with Mr. Karadzic, as
10 president of the party, and you have a number of telephone conversations,
11 but he never contacted me. During the war he contacted Mr. Koljevic.
12 Mr. Koljevic gathered young intellectuals around him in order to
13 carry on academic discussions with him, and I think they discussed those
14 topics more than they discussed commissioners. Mr. Djokanovic, as early
15 as October, became an advisor to the late Mr. Koljevic. And there are
16 some minutes of the so-called Presidency signed by Momcilo Krajisnik as
17 the chairperson on the 9th of October, where you can see my signature and
18 the Presidency is supposed to have been there.
19 On the same date, Mr. Koljevic signed a decision that at a session
20 of the Presidency Mr. Djokanovic had been appointed his advisor. So that
21 session where I signed as the chairperson was not actually a session of
22 the Presidency because that topic was not discussed at all.
23 My conclusion is the following: This is an immature person, I
24 have to say that, overambitious. He is a person who was scared that he
25 would be held responsible for something. So for reasons that are unclear,
1 he started trying to find a way out, because he was in charge of all those
2 municipalities where terrible things happened. And I can show you all the
3 evidence to substantiate this, Your Honours, because I have gone into a
4 deep analysis of all this.
5 Q. I'd next like to ask you about Milan Babic, please.
6 A. The late Milan Babic. He is deceased so I will try to choose my
7 words about him carefully.
8 I don't know whether I met the late Milan Babic two or three
9 times. I never sat down with him. He said something which is completely
10 untrue, and that's that in late 1992 I was in Novi Grad, that's
11 Bosanski Novi, at some kind of Assembly meeting when Mr. Seselj was there.
12 Why is this important? I was not in Bosanski Novi. Mr. Pasic
13 said that, too, and everybody knows when this Assembly was held. It was
14 only a year later that this Assembly was held. Seselj was there at the
15 time, but not at the Assembly, and it's true that there was a joint
16 Assembly of the Srpska Krajina and the Republika Srpska.
17 But why is this point in time in 1992 so crucial? It's as if he
18 wanted to say when ethnic cleansing was carried out, as he says, Momcilo
19 Krajisnik was in Bosanski Novi. Mr. Seselj arrived, and together they
20 supported ethnic cleansing. That's how I understood his malicious
21 intentions. I wasn't there in 1992, I didn't know about the Muslims going
22 there, I wasn't there with Mr. Seselj, and I met Mr. Babic only a few
24 Why was Mr. Babic so bitter about me, if you could see that?
25 Because the Serb delegation, including me, the people from Banja Luka,
1 Pale, and so on, were in favour of implementing the Vance Plan, that was
2 in early 1992, and he was profoundly opposed to it. We agreed with it.
3 Later, he was dismissed, and he was constantly trying to separate
4 off the Bosnian Krajina and to join up -- join it up with the Serb
5 Krajina, which would have gone contrary to the Vance Plan. We would have
6 been in trouble with our people who wanted to join the Serb Krajina but
7 didn't understand politics, they didn't realise that they would be
8 contravening two agreements and that this would be very counter-productive
9 for them. I cannot give you any further details about him or say anything
10 else. I can only guess what he said.
11 He said another thing that is very important here. He said that I
12 tried to persuade him to have the Ekavsi, E-k-a, Ekavsi, or the Cyrillic
13 alphabet introduced. He said the Serbian people speak Ekavsi, E-k-a,
14 Ekavsi in Serbia, and Ijekavski, I-j-e, in other parts. And when
15 Yugoslavia collapsed, in Bosnia-Herzegovina the language was called
16 Serbo-Croatian, so it was both Serb and Croatian. The Croats said: We
17 have our own language, and we're not going to call it that anymore. The
18 Muslims who didn't have a language of their own but spoke Serbo-Croatian,
19 they called that language with some modifications the Bosniak language.
20 So all that was left for us to do was to call our language the Serbian
21 language, and this was at the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina when demands
22 were made that three languages should be used, and we laughed about it
23 because it's the same language within different nuances.
24 So we called it the Serb language, and we said that the Ekavian
25 and Ijekavian dialects would be equal and that the Cyrillic alphabet and
1 the Latin alphabet would be used pursuant to the law. And he made use of
2 this to say that I was in favour of some kind of separatism, and this was
3 very improper, because everybody else did the same before the Serbs called
4 their language the Serbian language.
5 I don't know whether he said anything else. We met only two or
6 three times.
7 Q. The next witness I want to ask you about is Boro Bjelobrk. Much
8 of his evidence dealt with his assessment of the SDS in the years, or
9 months perhaps I should say, leading up to the war. Of course, you have
10 dealt with that in some detail during the course of the questions that
11 Mr. Stewart has asked you. But notwithstanding that, what comments do you
12 have about Mr. Bjelobrk?
13 A. Although I don't like to speak badly of people, with full
14 responsibility I can say that Mr. Bjelobrk is a communist. He lived in
15 the communist system, and he was privileged in it. Ideologically he was
16 bitterly opposed to any national parties. Why was he not equally opposed
17 to the Muslim national party with the same vehemence? Because in the
18 former system there was a quota system, and if a Muslim was at the head,
19 then his deputy would have to be a Serb or a Croat. So the ethnic make-up
20 was always taken into account, in every commercial enterprise, in every
21 institution, everywhere. The posts that belonged to the Serbs, even
22 though, as he says himself, was a Yugoslav -- he calls himself a Yugoslav,
23 although he's from a Serb family, he always held the post reserved for a
24 Serb everywhere.
25 Now that the national parties had emerged, it suited him to have
1 the Serbs in a minority somewhere, because as part of a minority he would
2 be able to take up the Serb post. When the Serb parties arrived, of
3 course other people would be holding those posts.
4 One thing he said here which is very important is that
5 ideologically he hated the Serb Democratic Party and the national parties.
6 Unfortunately, I don't want to go into private matters and tell you who
7 he's married to, but he had this resistance.
8 Your Honours, I have shown you what his error was. Once I was
9 left on my own in parliament. The Serbs deputies had left, and I voted in
10 favour of an item on the agenda, and later on the vote was against and
11 they needed one more vote for their item to be put on the agenda. And I
12 voted in favour, so their item was included in the agenda, thanks to my
13 vote. I was the only Serb from the SDS.
14 When the discussion was over, we counted the votes. There were
15 130, and there was one vote missing, and I said: I give them my vote, the
16 131st. When their item on the agenda came up for voting, we counted the
17 votes and there were 134, so my vote was not necessary for their item to
18 be adopted. It was a benign item. And even though it was imposed by
19 force, I said: I will now abstain. There's no need for me to vote in
21 Well, now he describes this as my duplicity. And before that all
22 the SDS deputies had left that Assembly meeting. They were very upset
23 because something that had been agreed beforehand had not been respected.
24 Everything he says about these territories are his own hallucinations. He
25 is a man suffering from ideological blindness. He remained in the central
1 part of Sarajevo, and he's constantly jockeying for position because there
2 are few Serbs there, so he wants to be appointed to various posts. Before
3 he used to be in the trade union. He just wants to have a post and
4 privileges and, unfortunately, he does have that in the Muslim part of
6 I have had very little contact with him. They had another
7 president of the deputies club, also a Serb, Miro Lazovic, who is no
8 better than him; on the contrary, they're the same. But it was Miro
9 Lazovic I had contacts with. I rarely contacted with Bjelobrk in those
10 groups, so to say.
11 If Your Honours remember, he gave an example. I was the president
12 of the Assembly, and he brought a trade union delegation for me to
13 intervene in Yugoslavia, in Belgrade, to have an invoice of theirs paid.
14 This has nothing to do with president of the Assembly, and they say that I
15 was hostile. But he was bringing these dissatisfied trade unionists in
16 order to turn them against me, saying: You see, here is this Serb who is
17 representing this group and nothing he said is correct.
18 I have even prepared a CD for Their Honours with the dates of the
19 discussions, and showing how the discussions were led. He complained
20 because I had had prolonged sessions, but I was trying not to have the
21 Assembly divided. There were pauses and so on, but that was my goal, not
22 to obstruct the work of the Assembly.
23 Q. Just clarify this. The CD you have just referred to, what's that?
24 A. I think that the Honourable Presiding Judge and the Honourable
25 Judge Canivell remember when I handed over three CDs to you and then you
1 returned them to me when Mr. Bjelobrk was being discussed and you didn't
2 really look at it. And I did that before the Honourable Judge Hanoteau
3 came. So that was returned and all of that is mentioned on those CDs, but
4 this is a long time ago.
5 Q. The next person I'd like to talk -- turn to, please, is
6 Mr. Kljujic. I have asked you a number of questions about him, and put to
7 you during the course of your review of some of the intercepts in which
8 you were a participant, assertions by Mr. Kljujic, and you have dealt with
9 those. In fact, earlier today you dealt with his assertion, for example,
10 that you were fully informed about ethnic cleansing that was occurring in
11 Bosnia in 1992.
12 A. Mr. Kljujic was interpreting that telephone conversation, and he
13 says this shows that Mr. Krajisnik knew about ethnic cleansing.
14 I would like to remind you of the following now. Mr. Kljujic said
15 here that he was the president of the state commission for establishing
16 war crimes, that is to say, war crimes committed by all sides. So he
17 didn't establish any of these and he wasn't involved in that. Truth to
18 tell, he was a member of the Presidency until the end of 1991 and then the
19 Presidency replaced him with Miro Lasic. And then he was returned yet
20 again because of Miro Lasic, because Miro Lasic had left the Presidency,
21 that is.
22 Mr. Kljujic was president of the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic
23 Union. All communications before the war, up to the war, that is to say
24 during the election campaign as well, he carried out at the level of party
25 president. He confirmed that himself.
1 As for my own contacts with Mr. Kljujic --
2 Q. Can I stop you. Before we get on to that, clarification please.
3 You said, I quote: "Mr. Kljujic said here that he was president of the
4 state commission for establishing war crimes, that is to say, war crimes
5 committed by all sides. So he didn't establish any of these and he wasn't
6 involved in that."
7 That's the end of the quote. What did you mean by: "So he didn't
8 establish any of these and he wasn't involved in that"?
9 A. That's not the way I put it, but it was similar, though.
10 Mr. Kljujic stated here that he was president of the commission
11 for establishing war crimes -- the state commission, that is, the state
12 commission of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was in Sarajevo.
13 During that time, since he headed this state commission, he was
14 supposed to establish what kind of crimes were committed against all
15 ethnic groups. I'm just giving an example. Today we have a list of
16 missing persons, and I know that he did not establish any crimes that had
17 been committed against the Serbs, not even against the Croats. He only
18 worked on seeing what crimes were committed against Muslims, if he did
19 anything at all.
20 And I said that he was there only until the end of 1992. For a
21 while he was replaced by Miro Lasic, and I don't know what he did after
22 that. He was not a member of that commission. And I said that I did not
23 have much contact with him and I did not really contact him or talk to
24 him. And it's not true that that meeting was held in my office the way he
25 represents it, where Stanic was and others.
1 In my office, there was this one chair, and there were two chairs
2 on the sides. It wasn't that three plus three people could sit there, so
3 there was sort of the president and a table and these two chairs. So you
4 could not really have three Serbs and three Croats sitting there. Anybody
5 can establish that; that's probably the way it is to this day. So it
6 could not have happened there, and I do not know what he's talking about.
7 Physically it was not possible. Maybe somebody else had a meeting during
8 one of the breaks. I don't know about that, I'm not aware of that, I
9 don't remember that, but it certainly wasn't in my office.
10 Q. I'd next like to move on to Miroslav Deronjic.
11 Part of his evidence dealt with events within the SDS in October,
12 November, and December of 1991. Can I -- I'm not going to ask you about
13 that and don't really want you to comment on his assertions in that regard
14 because you have dealt with that in another part of your evidence. What
15 contact did you have with Mr. Deronjic in 1991 and 1992?
16 A. I cannot remember contacts with him. I mean, I knew of him, and I
17 had a very good opinion of Mr. Deronjic at the time, but I cannot remember
18 whether I had any contact with him at the time. I did not have any
19 contact with him as a member of the appointments commission because it did
20 not meet and work. I did not have contacts at the Main Board because
21 sessions were not being held. Possibly when there was some joint meeting
22 of all that he was present there, but I did not talk to him
23 specifically -- or perhaps I talked to him a minute somewhere, but I
24 cannot remember. His activities were primarily party-based, and he talked
25 to people who had duties within the party.
1 I can give comments regarding his statement, if you're interested.
2 Q. Well, I want to ask you specifically about something he did say in
3 the course of his evidence on the 19th of February of 2004 at page 1223,
4 and that related to the opening of a corridor between Bratunac and
5 Kravica. And he said that that would have to have been approved by the
6 top leadership of the Republika Srpska. And he said it was a Mr. Zekic
7 who gave approval. Can you comment on that?
8 A. I must say that I do not remember this particular wording, but I
9 remember that he referred to Zekic as his mentor and his main connection
10 between him and the leadership of Republika Srpska. That was to say that
11 he got some sort of message from the late Mr. Zekic that this action could
12 be carried through. I cannot confirm that. I cannot deny that, but I can
13 indicate something illogical that he said and that brings into question
14 the authenticity of his decision. He said that he was the connection for
15 A and B variants, Variants A and B, and that a Serb municipality of
16 Srebrenica was not established by Zekic because he was not organised.
17 But I would like to remind you of the document you have.
18 Mr. Grkovic's diary of the 20th of December, where it is written,
19 recorded, a decision came in on the establishment of the Serb Assembly of
20 Srebrenica. That is to say, that he did not even know that Zekic had,
21 before that, before these Variants A and B were there, that he had
22 actually established already this Serb municipality of Srebrenica.
23 I'm trying to say -- well, I have to make the following comment.
24 He said many things here in order to make his own situation easier,
25 especially referring to people who died or who he believes will never come
1 before this Hague Tribunal. Remember that he said that 50 kilometres from
2 the Drina left and right were supposed to be Serb territory. If it were
3 to be 50 kilometres, then the border would have to be by Tuzla. Only an
4 insane person could say that. It isn't even 50 kilometres from the Drina
5 to Tuzla. So half of Bosnia would have to be taken in order to have this
6 Serb belt.
7 You also saw the public denial of Rajko Dukic after his statement
8 here that he never talked to him about this, but I really cannot comment
9 on any other details. I mean, I'd have to engage in guesswork.
10 Q. When did you become aware of the massacre in Glogova that
11 Mr. Deronjic being part of?
12 A. During the war, I never knew of this crime in Glogova. I met him
13 and he never told me that there had been a massacre there. Quite simply,
14 as he had put it, Glogova had been liberated; everybody was saying that.
15 I had never heard of this story of his before. I don't know whether he
16 met anyone at that meeting, but I assure you that if any crime had been
17 committed, people concealed that and they didn't want to brag about it.
18 On the contrary. An investigation would have to be carried out in order
19 to establish whether somebody had done something or not. When I saw what
20 this was all about here, I was surprised as everyone else who was present.
21 I just have to tell you one more thing. There is a record here of
22 the court questioning him as an accused person. During the war, I got
23 this later, Zekic's father accuses him of having betrayed Zekic, and in
24 that record he talks about Glogova, about what happened. I got that only
25 the other day. That is to say, that somebody knew about that. He talked
1 about all of this that happened in Glogova during the war, but I -- or
2 someone else from our ranks -- well, I didn't know about it.
3 In that statement that he made during the course of the war, he
4 probably stated that to some municipal court or I don't know who.
5 I have this document here, I can present it. It was only the
6 other day that I got this document. I never had it before.
7 MR. JOSSE: I'm in the Chamber's hands, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends what -- Mr. Krajisnik, could you
9 briefly describe what that document is you're referring to. Is it a
10 statement? Is it -- first of all, from what date is it?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a record, Your Honour, of a
12 court hearing of the different parties involved. Perhaps I even have it
13 here with me --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A record --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- what's the date. Clear question. Please stop
17 explaining what the document is. If you know, please tell us; if you
18 don't know, I'll put my next question to you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, I'd have to look it
20 up. But I think it was during the course of the war.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please look it up, and if you have the dates tell us.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll look it up straight away, and
23 if I haven't got it here, I'll bring it in tomorrow.
24 MR. JOSSE: I was going to suggest that Mr. Krajisnik does this
25 overnight and --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine.
2 Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to do that overnight, and then it
3 will not take court time. So if you find it this evening, you could tell
4 us tomorrow in three lines what exactly it is.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
6 MR. JOSSE: Yes, I'd like to go into private --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You've got me so scared that I don't
8 know -- well, all right. I'll find it tonight and I'll bring it tomorrow
10 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to go into private session, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 24693-24697 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Krajisnik, there's one small issue, I wouldn't say a very
11 important one, but which we'd like to address in your absence, you being
12 the witness at this moment. So therefore, I'd like to invite you to be
13 escorted out of the courtroom so that I can address the matter. Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I just ask you something?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said about this CD --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you were about to ask me something,
18 that's at least how it was. You said: "Could I just ask you something?"
19 And then I said: "Yes."
20 And then it was interpreted --
21 Could you please put your earphones on again? Mr. Krajisnik, at
22 this moment in the transcript I read that you said to me: "Could I just
23 ask you something?"
24 I said: "Yes."
25 And then your words were translated as: "You said about this
1 CD --" and there it stops. So if you want to ask us something, I wished
2 to give you an opportunity to do so, but I didn't hear any question there.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I looked at this CD -- or rather,
4 this DVD yesterday. It has to do with that interview of mine, but there
5 is another segment there that's -- that is important, and you said that
6 they should look at it in the meantime and that it should be admitted into
7 evidence here. It has to do with the Presidency.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I invited the parties to look at it and to
9 answer the question, so I take it that we -- we'll hear from either Mr. --
10 either the Prosecution and Defence or both by tomorrow. Would that be
11 a --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I just say something? It's
13 minute 49, seconds 15. It's going to make it easier for them to find it.
14 The 49th minute, 15th second states exactly what the members of the
15 Presidency are.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 I take that that's --
18 MR. STEWART: Yes, we have no [indiscernible], Your Honours.
19 Your Honour, can I just say that this -- we're not intending to be
20 unnecessarily difficult. We don't know what the issue is. It's taken us
21 slightly by surprise that Mr. Krajisnik's being asked to leave. Your
22 Honour, we would just like to reserve our position formally in relation to
23 that, because it's something we don't --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's not a big issue.
25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But nevertheless to be dealt with in the absence of
2 Mr. Krajisnik. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what you're going to say.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, the issue is -- it's -- I don't think it's
7 a very --
8 Mr. Josse, we have some of these informal translations of
9 documents which were introduced very quickly. We just wanted to let you
10 know that it's not entirely clear to the Chamber what purpose they serve
11 exactly. For example, if I just take one example, D223, which bears the
12 signature of Mr. Davidovic says something about a car which was inspected,
13 apart from -- even if we would follow what Mr. Krajisnik said, that it
14 must have been seized, although the document doesn't say that. We have
15 some difficulties in understanding exactly what the purpose of this is
16 when I do remember well Mr. Davidovic said something about vehicles which
17 were seized and then sold by I think members of the MUP or the SUP; I
18 don't know exactly what it was. Here this document tells us that the
19 vehicles should be registered for purposes of the Serbian MUP. I think
20 Mr. Davidovic never said anything of the kind, that those vehicles should
21 not be used for official purposes or whatever. He said something about
22 personal profit taken by -- by members of the MUP -- I think it's not all
23 clear in my recollection, but something that they sold them to their own
25 So, therefore, such a report is hanging, more or less, in the air.
1 To some extent, it would confirm what Mr. Davidovic said. If you would
2 interpret such a document as saying: Here you see that if they were later
3 on sold, that Mr. Davidovic himself contributed to that course, but that's
4 of course an interpretation.
5 We have not fully understood the -- the true meaning of these
6 documents and how we should interpret them. We just wanted you to -- to
7 let you know so that if you have to spend time on further examination, or,
8 Mr. Stewart, that you would at least be aware that it did not fully come
9 to an understanding within the Chamber. And we leave it up to you whether
10 it's important enough to pay further attention to or whether you would
11 say: Well, it's perhaps not of that vital importance for the case, that
12 even if we would not understand every single bit of this part of the
13 evidence, that it would not damage your case. We leave that to you, but
14 we did not want to say this in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik because it
15 might have caused him to explain a lot of things on which you, as counsel,
16 might think that there are other matters more important perhaps to deal
18 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, speaking about it for myself without
19 speaking to Mr. Stewart --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. JOSSE: -- first of all, let me say I take Your Honour's
22 comments in the spirit in which they were clearly intended, i.e., to be
23 helpful, and I'm grateful.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. JOSSE: I'm bound to say it comes as great concern to me that
1 this has been done in Mr. Krajisnik's absence. I don't really follow why,
2 but perhaps we can think about this overnight --
3 JUDGE ORIE: The main purpose being --
4 MR. JOSSE: Because I'm not sure there is any provision for it
5 all. In a common law system, Your Honour, it would be quite impossible,
6 let me say.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you know that we are not in a common law
9 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, if finally there's nothing -- I think, as a
11 matter of fact, we just discussed whether it should be on the DVD that
12 Mr. Krajisnik receives tomorrow, but he will receive it, but at the end of
13 his testimony. What we wanted to avoid is that we get here a clash of
14 what is most important to use Defence time for.
15 MR. JOSSE: I see.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I certainly take the position that we'd rather not
17 have such a battle here and rather use the time as efficiently as
18 possible. And we still, as you may have noticed in the past, we still
19 think that counsel has an important, if not very important, if not a
20 decisive role in prioritising these matters.
21 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm sure both of us take this, as I've already
22 said, in the spirit in which it is intended, and we're grateful to the
23 Chamber for these words.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you find it important enough to make us further
25 explore the common law tradition in this respect, we are willing to do
1 so. We're not encouraging you to do so, not because we think it's
2 improper to do, but in view of the matter at stake and in view of how we
3 usually deal with matters in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik. I would be
4 surprised, but I can -- it could be a mistake on my side that it has not a
5 great bearing on what happens at this moment.
6 MR. JOSSE: With respect, I agree, but we will reserve our
7 position. I would like to talk to Mr. Stewart about what has just
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. If there's any need, we'll hear from
10 you further.
11 I apologise to the technicians and the interpreters, where I
12 thought that I had improved my record in late finishes, I'm afraid that
13 this is a major fall back on that.
14 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.15 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of
17 May, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.