1 Monday, 29 May 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [Mr. Krajisnik entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber decided that we would allow you some

11 time to add to your testimony, what you considered of importance, and

12 grant you to start with half for that an hour this morning. I do

13 understand that you wanted to provide us with a CD which contains matters

14 which are not translated. This causes, of course again, a problem. I do

15 not know why it is not translated, why it has not been offered earlier to

16 CLSS. Not having looked at the -- what is on the CD, perhaps the best way

17 of doing it would be the following, that whenever you tell us something

18 that, unless it's really necessary to be played or to be shown, that you

19 refer to this material and we'll see whether it can be translated. And if

20 it can, and then of course it's very important that it should be

21 translated within the time granted for cross-examination. So we'll see

22 whether we can give some priority to it. We will also see whether it is

23 not yet -- or whether there is a translation anywhere in this Tribunal so

24 that we could use that translation, and also present it to your down see

25 what they have. So unless you tell us that there's something which we

1 would have to look at now, immediately -- I don't know whether you have

2 any hard copies of what the CD contains. Do you have any?

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have copied this CD

4 here in order so that you can have at least this. I also have this DVD,

5 and everything will become clear when I refer to it. Therefore, I would

6 like each participant to be given a copy of this to make it easier to

7 follow.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there's, as such, no harm in that. So at least

9 I'll allow you to distribute the index of ...

10 Yes, I see that there are a lot of folders and some files on it.

11 The folders are -- of course, I can't see what is in the folders. Then,

12 Mr. Krajisnik, I do understand that you have a CD which contains these

13 documents.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- we'll give it temporarily to

16 Mr. Registrar and we'll see what comes us and we'll see to what extent it

17 can be admitted, whether it would be as a contextual document, whether it

18 would be as a document directly introduced by you as a witness.

19 Mr. Krajisnik, please, whenever you refer to any of these documents,

20 please make it clear to us where we find that document on the index of the

21 CD.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I simply make a request? At the

25 earliest, convenient opportunity, might we simply borrow the CD for a few

1 minutes and we can copy it and then we'll have that material --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can directly copy --

3 MR. STEWART: Whichever, Your Honour; we're happy to do it

4 ourselves or whatever suits the Court best.

5 MR. HARMON: [Microphone not activated].

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course that goes almost without saying.

7 MR. HARMON: We would join in that request.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That goes much without saying. Whenever there is any

9 chance that this material will be used, you will receive a copy of it

10 immediately.

11 Mr. Krajisnik.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I had had a DVD, I would have

13 copied it. I only had one large material, therefore I apologise for not

14 copying it for everybody. Thank you --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Nowadays copying a CD or a DVD doesn't require much

16 technical skills, even Judges of this Chamber can do it, so ...

17 Mr. Krajisnik, before you start, may I emphasise again that you

18 are speaking as a witness. We leave it to you, that means that you're

19 responding, more or less, to your own questions as an accused. So the

20 witness answers the questions silently put to himself by the accused,

21 which means try to stay out of final argument, try to stay out of

22 argument, and present us, as much as possible, with facts. Please

23 proceed.

24 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The question

2 of he expanded Presidency and work in the Presidency, under 01 there is a

3 document which I wish to tender. This document explains that I was not a

4 member of the Presidency and explains how the consultative body operated.

5 This is a statement made by Radovan Karadzic to our investigators under

6 Rule 92 bis for persons not available, I ask the Court to receive this.

7 I --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

9 MR. TIEGER: I'm -- we've been through this in a number of

10 permutations. I'm sure the Court is aware of our position on this.

11 I only add that of course we're entirely unfamiliar with -- of course,

12 first of all it goes without saying that this hasn't complied with

13 appropriate procedures. We've had no chance to either be aware of the

14 interest in advancing this statement in any way. And if there are going

15 to be additional references in Mr. Krajisnik's presentation to statements

16 that were taken by his investigators and that are not and are not likely

17 to be in evidence, I think we should know in advance. I think any

18 reference to those in some manner should be deferred until we have a

19 ruling, as I anticipate it will be, as it has been, that in the absence

20 with appropriate compliance those statements are not in evidence and

21 there's no purpose in referring to them.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the Prosecution would have wished

23 to cross-examine Mr. Krajisnik if a 92 bis statement -- that you would

24 have insisted on that.

25 MR. TIEGER: You may, Your Honour.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may?

2 JUDGE ORIE: When was this statement taken, Mr. Krajisnik?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can take a look at the material by

4 your leave. I think it's in 2001 or 2002. I'm only saying it does not

5 meet the conditions of 92 bis, but only the item or the provision

6 referring to people who are unavailable. We have not been able to contact

7 them. I would like to show it, but I will not rely on it. You have taken

8 an oath from me to tell the truth. I am telling you now that there is a

9 statement made by Mr. Karadzic, and I wish to tender it through the

10 regular procedure under Rule 92 bis. And it says exactly who was a member

11 of the Presidency and who wasn't.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, for several reasons at this moment the

14 Chamber will not receive that document, one of them being that the Chamber

15 hardly could imagine that it would be anything else than going directly in

16 the direction of acts and conducts of you, as an accused. Furthermore,

17 the whole issue of a presiding officer, the -- which has not been

18 appointed, the problems in calling Mr. Karadzic for cross-examination, so

19 there are many reasons why the Chamber, without at this moment giving a

20 final decision on it because I take it that counsel is better in a

21 situation to assess what argument could still be presented to have it

22 admitted. And therefore, at this moment, the answer is we are not going

23 to look at it, we are not going to give any final decision on admission in

24 evidence, but we just point to you that there are many reasons why we

25 would not be much inclined to admit it into evidence. But we give an

1 opportunity to counsel to argue why it would have to be admitted. They

2 are better aware of the rules and of the case law, and I think it would be

3 not a good idea to leave it just in your hands at this moment to deal with

4 this kind of arguments. At the same time, it is your testimony at this

5 moment, that most likely in 2001 a statement was taken from Mr. Karadzic

6 which -- so therefore exists and might be of a -- well, may have a content

7 which could shed further light on it.

8 So therefore please proceed. We're not going to look at it at

9 this moment.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. On the 21st of October,

11 2001 --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, August.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's when the statement was taken.

14 I did not intend to tender it. I cannot communicate with my team;

15 that's why I said this. But of course Mr. Stewart and Mr. Jones [as

16 interpreted] will talk to me about ways of tendering it. Your Honours,

17 you asked me to document, if possible, how the discussion was led about

18 Mr. Branko Simic. I sent a letter to the Main Staff on the 26th of

19 October, 1992, about this. I have found those minutes. These are the

20 minutes from the 21st Session of the People's Assembly, and I can provide

21 this document inspection here, if that's the correct way of saying. And I

22 can read a part of those minutes here. I did not have them before because

23 they were not in the documentation. During the cross-examination of

24 Mr. Trbojevic, it was presented by the Prosecutor.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So it is already in evidence. Could the parties

1 assist the Chamber. It's -- so therefore it's an Assembly -- 21st

2 Assembly Session?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have the document. I can provide

4 it right away, and I can tell you exactly when this was and what item of

5 the agenda it is.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The 21st Assembly Session, would that be the 1st of

7 November? No.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's the 30th of October or the

9 1st of November, 1992, and it's AD 82. Could the usher hand you this

10 document, please? I don't have anymore copies of it. It's at the end of

11 these minutes.

12 Thirdly, I wish to explain briefly Mr. Okun's speech. --

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's P64A, tab 11.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

15 MR. STEWART: And 11.1.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Will this time be subtracted --

18 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, it isn't, Your Honour. That's a

19 mistake --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, not my lawyer.

21 MR. STEWART: I'll find it in a moment.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I only read something from

23 Mr. Owen's book about Mr. Okun and tender it into evidence in connection

24 with his statement concerning the Vance-Owen Plan?

25 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections, so we have admitted now and

1 then parts of books.

2 Please read it, Mr. Krajisnik. And I take it that you're reading

3 from the B/C/S version but we do know that the book --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I will tender it in

5 English.

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note they do not have the

7 English version.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On page 87 --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, if you have an English one, could you

10 please put that on the ELMO, if you have it --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course.

12 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, while that's happening, we've

13 established that the minutes of this Assembly Session are P583, but the

14 transcript apparently not so far not exhibited. That's what we've been

15 able to track down.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, or are you just looking at your screen.

17 Please proceed, Mr. --

18 MR. TIEGER: I just wanted to be of some assistance. The

19 particular Assembly Session to which Mr. Stewart was referring?

20 MR. STEWART: Sorry, the 21st Session dated 30th of October, 1992.

21 MR. TIEGER: Correct. We --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I see that we have 30th, 31st, and 1st of November,

23 three dates for the same session.

24 MR. STEWART: It may have -- sometimes the sessions did last more

25 than a day, Your Honour, but we can double-check that.

1 MR. TIEGER: I -- the transcript says November, Your Honour, think

2 I the reference is to October. In any event, with reference to the 21st,

3 the situation is that, to the best of my knowledge, there -- and we

4 addressed this issue earlier when the Court asked for the 1991/1992

5 Assembly sessions, that with respect to that session there were minutes

6 and at least one brief clip that had been recovered of Dr. Karadzic

7 speaking. And we submitted those. Those, to the best of my knowledge,

8 represent what is in evidence with regard to that session.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, limited portion, the remainder could not be

10 found.

11 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. STEWART: The next session we have just in relation to the

14 November dates is the 22nd Session on the 24th of November, and that has

15 been exhibited in about three places, including P583, but for the moment

16 we don't have any note or suggestion there was sessions in between the

17 30th or -- 30th and 31st of October. It looks as if it was a two-day

18 session, the 21st Session.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 Mr. Krajisnik.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second meeting of the steering

22 committee of the ICFY took place on the 20th of October, and in a

23 restricted session Martti Ahtisaari presented a constitutional paper. We

24 have made a direct link between the is situation of hostilities and

25 finding a constitutional settlement. It is being that Warren Zimmerman,

1 the senior representative of the US, stated that it was an impressive

2 document and contained all the relevant principles and wanted to make

3 representations straight away in support of our constitutional idea. We

4 counseled delay, at least until we had presented it to the parties the

5 following day. We said that the co-chairman would be seeking endorsement

6 of these proposals in two days' time in Belgrade and straight afterwards

7 in Zagreb. In the main the steering committee was very sportive and

8 governments' representatives' anxieties focussed on the transitional

9 period.

10 "The Bosnian government was initial enthusiastic to the extent

11 that the foreign minister Haris Silajdzic pulled herb Okun aside and asked

12 that our constitutional proposals be 'imposed' on all parties. In

13 presenting our constitutional proposals to the Bosnian Serbs, we felt the

14 key would be to demonstrate that we had taken the process of

15 decentralisation as far as could without creating states within a state.

16 It's clear here that representatives of the Muslim side attended that

17 meeting and that Mr. Okun and Mr. Zimmerman advocated a change in policy.

18 There are also things that Mr. Zimmerman said here, but since this is not

19 in English, I simply wash to adduce it or have it placed on the ELMO, that

20 this is the policy of neither Europe or America is something I will

21 expound later on through a document I have here. Through plebiscite a

22 question was put here. Mr. Okun said that the territories in the

23 plebiscite where over 50 per cent of the Serbs voted, that he thought this

24 should belong to Republika Srpska or Yugoslavia. The documents I went

25 through here and that I wish to tender into evidence, are very clear. By

1 your leave, I will quote from the minutes from the meeting of the main

2 commission for the implementation of the plebiscite of the Serb people in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina 020831, then the report on the results of the

4 plebiscite which was carried out on the 9th and 10th of November --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the number.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Signed by the commission and --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just -- Madam Usher, could you -- 27th of

8 October, which year, Mr. -- you started reading a -- no, could you please

9 leave it but just move it on a bit.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 27th.

11 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit higher, Madam Usher, no the other way.

12 The text. A lot of reference is to 1995 in the portion prior to that.

13 What year are we talking about when we're talking about the 27th of

14 October?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1993 when Mr. Okun was a member,

16 with regard to the Vance-Owen Plan. Later on he was not a member; this is

17 well-known. It is not emphasised here, but this is in the book. This is

18 in 1993.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it says that it was --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. It may have been --

21 excuse me.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just a few questions. You say it was presented

23 to all three parties at this moment. The book says that it was in a

24 restricted session of the steering committee. And the next paragraph

25 starts with: "The Bosnian government was initially enthusiastic." And it

1 also say, "We said that the co-chairman would be seeking endorsement of

2 these proposals days' time in Belgrade and straight afterwards in Zagreb.

3 The steering committee at that moment met with all three parties?

4 Is that a correct understanding of your testimony because it does not

5 directly follow from the text of the book.

6 MR. JOSSE: Could I just help to this extent, Your Honour. Mr.

7 Krajisnik handed this to the Defence in the bundle of documents last week.

8 Let me hand mine to Your Honour so that at least Your Honour has one in

9 front of you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you -- you say it's 1993 and all three

11 parties were present during this meeting?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I made a mistake. It's in 1992, at

13 the very beginning when the Vance-Owen Plan was activated. I do

14 apologise.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we're talking about 1992. And next question

16 was whether all three parties were present during that my colleague.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not all three parties were

18 present at that meeting. It was only the Bosnian, or Muslim, side. The

19 plan was presented to us later on.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now just to better understand -- you said:

21 I simply wish to adduce it or -- that this is the policy of neither Europe

22 or America is something -- you'll expand on that later. So we'll hear

23 about this from you at a later stage. Please proceed.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This plan was not accepted, either

25 by America or Europe later on, and this is evident from the later

1 rejection of the plan. I can briefly expand on what Mr. Zimmermann said

2 about this meeting. He was present there, and that might clarify things.

3 It's from his book, which is also here. It's a short quotation, if you

4 will allow me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You may do so, as long as you keep in mind, Mr.

6 Krajisnik, that this case is not about for what reasons -- at least that's

7 not the core of the case. I wouldn't say that it's totally irrelevant.

8 This case is not about why negotiations, why -- why further talks failed

9 to result in a more peaceful situation. But this case is mainly about

10 responsibility for what happened on the ground. As long as you keep that

11 in mind, please proceed.

12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters ask that the English version be

13 put on the ELMO.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- could the -- what you read now, is there

15 an English version and could that be put on the ELMO as well?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I don't have it. You

17 probably have -- it's -- it's Mr. Zimmerman's book.

18 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, let me help to this extent again.

19 Mr. Krajisnik gave this to us last week. One of the members of our team

20 translated it. The translation is not up to the standard of CLSS, but I'm

21 happy to put it on the ELMO if the Chamber thinks it would assist.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No, perhaps that would be a bad idea. Then we'd

23 rather invite Mr. Krajisnik and not present a bad translation -- well, not

24 necessarily a bad translation, a translation which might not be up to

25 standard on the ELMO.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to read not too large a portion, and

2 then to read it really slowly so the interpreters can follow you. Please

3 do so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just this passage.

5 "Christopher was afraid that the Muslims might reject this plan.

6 I told him I happened to have confidential information about this. A few

7 weeks ago I happened to be in Vance's office in Geneva when Vance and Owen

8 received the response of the Bosnian government to the plan, not only was

9 it positive, it was enthusiastic. The Muslims were ready to support it

10 publicly right away. Vance suggested that they wait. He was afraid that

11 the Serbs might raise the price if the Muslims accepted it quickly."

12 This is in connection with the same event that I've just

13 mentioned. May I say something about Mr. Okun?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that the plebiscite

16 envisaged a 50 per cent percentage of Serbs in a particular territory. If

17 50 per cent voted in favour, then it would remain Republika Srpska or part

18 of Yugoslavia, rather. I'd just like to say that there is a report here

19 that in all territories Serbs voted 110 per cent in favour, that is to say

20 that the turn-out exceeded the actual lists. So I'll give you the report

21 from the plebiscite from various municipalities, and I would just like to

22 indicate the following to Your Honours, that that decision that was read

23 out where it says that 50 per cent of the registered citizens of Serb

24 ethnicity, that is paragraph 1, and then there is paragraph 2 and

25 paragraph 3. So I am just going to read what explains the first

1 paragraph. The decisions on the territories of municipalities, local

2 communities, and settlements in Bosnia and Herzegovina that are considered

3 to be territories of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. "Considered,"

4 that word means that the people in that area voted in favour of remaining

5 in Yugoslavia.

6 Paragraph 2 as follows: "Parts of territory of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina from paragraph 1 of this decision, together with the

8 territory of the Republic of Serbia, Montenegro, south Slavonia, Baranja,

9 and Western Srem," thank you, "constitute the core of the joint state of

10 Yugoslavia."

11 Paragraph 3 reads as follows -- sorry, paragraph 4 rather.

12 "The representatives of the Serb people are hereby authorised,

13 namely Dr. Radovan Karadzic, Professor Nikola Koljevic, Professor Biljana

14 Dr. Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, master of sciences, Professor Dr. Aleksa

15 Buha, Professor Dr. Vojislav Maksimovic, to negotiate with the

16 representatives of the Muslim and Croat peoples about the organisation of

17 future life together in the territory of the hitherto Socialist Republic

18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

19 I would just like to add the following. The plebiscite was an

20 expression of the will of the people and that this was not worded very

21 well. Perhaps it's a bit clumsy in terms of what paragraph 1 means, but

22 that meant that negotiations were supposed to continue as to how Bosnia

23 and Herzegovina would be organised. That is 04. Now 05.

24 "Cooperation with The Hague Tribunal." As for that question,

25 there will be no mention of it here, and you will assess whether Momcilo

1 Krajisnik cooperated with The Hague Tribunal. I should just briefly

2 present some facts that are very important. When I was a member of the

3 Presidency from 1996 until 1998, the chief Prosecutor visited me, Ms.

4 Arbour, and I said that I would do my best to make it possible to make all

5 documents available and to have large-scale cooperation with The Hague

6 Tribunal. She asked me whether I would talk to Mr. Karadzic as to whether

7 he would agree to come to The Hague. I talked about that to Mr. Karadzic

8 as well, and he said to me: I have many documents that refute this

9 statement -- or rather, this indictment. And he said that he was prepared

10 to provide all these documents -- sorry, Ms. Arbour before that said if he

11 has documents that refute his statement, we will whole-heartedly embrace

12 this and we are going to make that kind of assessment before a trial would

13 actually begin.

14 I also suggested to Mr. Karadzic that he come to The Hague

15 Tribunal. I have, by way of documentation, this correspondence here that

16 the government provided a great many documents to The Hague Tribunal,

17 everything that they needed, everything that they were supposed to

18 receive. I gave my consent to have all Assembly documents handed over to

19 them, and the last group of documents which includes a letter of the

20 document to the OTP where the government complains that they did not want

21 to receive the last documents that were provided to them by the

22 government. Mr. Karadzic asked --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue. Mr. Krajisnik, you've told us

24 something about a document containing a number of paragraphs. What's that

25 document, what's the date, and how would you describe it?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you talking about the question

2 before this question or this document that I am explaining right now?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the -- you said paragraph 1 reads, paragraph 2

4 reads, paragraph 3 reads, and then you explained that.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll tell you what document it is.

6 I'll try to be as fast as possible. Obviously I cannot be any faster than

7 this. This is a decision on territories of municipalities, local

8 communities, and settlements in Bosnia-Herzegovina which are considered to

9 be the territory of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, SAO 0214101.

10 You put a question to me last time for me to explain this

11 document, and I did explain it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, again, just to refresh my recollection.

13 Document issued by whom and at what date?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document -- just a moment.

15 A document that was published in the Official Gazette issued by the

16 president of the Assembly -- oh, I'm so sorry. Excuse me, let me just

17 find this. The 21st of November, 1991. Signed by the president of the

18 Assembly, because it was adopted by the Assembly of the Serb People.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you continue by saying: That's 04. I

20 take it that that's a reference to your list? And then you move to 05 --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I was confused because you went through some

23 paragraphs which came close to four, and then -- so now we have number 5,

24 and number 5 is: "Cooperation with the taking Tribunal." That is a

25 document; which date and given by whom?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 0505, and now -- I mean in this

2 survey of yours. And now I am going to tell you exactly what documents

3 these are. It's a letter. The first document is a letter sent by the

4 deputy Prosecutor, Mr. Blewitt dated the 27th of October, 1997; and the

5 second letter, Republika Srpska Ministry of Justice and Administration,

6 01/2323-S/27, dated the 20th of January, 1997 --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do, therefore, understand that under number 5 we

8 find two letters. Is that correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to cooperation with The

12 Hague Tribunal, at the request of Mr. Karadzic, who agreed to appear

13 before court, he asked for a good lawyer to be provided to him. In

14 agreement with him, I went to Belgrade, because we didn't have any

15 resources, and I wrote a letter which I have attached here. The letter is

16 dated the 17th of March, 1998, where I wrote to Mr. Nikola Sajinovic. And

17 I can read it out here. It's a short letter. It has to do with his

18 lawyer then. Do you allow me to read the letter, it's short, and I would

19 like that to be admitted as well?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you give priority to that letter, which then

21 seems to deal with the lawyer of Mr. Karadzic, it's your time,

22 Mr. Krajisnik, but I remind you that your time is limited. So please make

23 up your mind whether it has such priority you that you would find it more

24 important than the other documents you still have in mind.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received this document in return

1 from the OTP because it was seized by SFOR. Momcilo Krajisnik, Belgrade,

2 17th of March, 1998. To Mr. Nikola Sajinovic, Belgrade.

3 "Please provide $2 million USD to us that should be deposited with

4 the Privna Banka Srpska Sarajevo in cash in Pale. These resources would

5 be used exclusively for the legal representation of Dr. Radovan Karadzic

6 in relation to the indictment before the court of arbitration in The

7 Hague. I also hereby undertake to seek your consent for this."

8 I don't know whether this was carried through after my arrest, but

9 this is a document that was presented and that was -- well, I think it

10 would be a good thing if this were to be included in the documentation, if

11 my lawyers agree.

12 After that, Mr. Dragan Hajdukovic was engaged by the OTP in The

13 Hague, and he communicated with our side and he took away a pile of

14 documents, orders, everything that you have here was taken away and handed

15 over to the OTP. I allowed for all these documents to be given to The

16 Hague Tribunal. At one moment when the Office of the Prosecutor refused

17 to receive any further documents, probably considered them to be

18 irrelevant, Mr. Karadzic got angry and said: If they don't want to take

19 these documents, then he gave up on his intention to appear before The

20 Hague Tribunal. I swore before God and before you to tell the truth, but

21 this is this cooperation and I was always prepared to give everything to

22 the OTP, whatever they needed. Many people made statements, then, I made

23 a statement, too. Karadzic was supposed to make a statement as well.

24 Since there were no statements, there was no statement, then I said that

25 it was our investigator who sought this statement. We can tender this

1 document, as I said, if my lawyers agree. And it is on a CD, this

2 document.

3 I'd like to give a number now, this is under 06. On your paper it

4 is under 06. I would like to say that in relation to Mr. Okun you have a

5 document after 31 -- or rather, before -- no, after number 31.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that this was not

8 the policy of the United States of American or -- or of American as such.

9 And could we just look at an excerpt of this book, an excerpt from this

10 book written by Mr. Owen. Could you just place this here? I'm just going

11 to read it briefly. The first part of this part.

12 "The US reaction to our new ideas was more forthcoming than I had

13 expected. President Clinton actually used the word I was trying to

14 avoid - partition - and said they could accept partition as long as it was

15 freely and willingly accepted by the parties themselves."

16 This has to do with the Vance-Owen Plan, and Mr. Owen's visit to

17 President Clinton. There are many documents to show that France and

18 Britain -- sorry, Great Britain refused this plan. The point was actually

19 that this was a plan in relation to the variants that were

20 available that were bandied about. It is true that Mr. Owen and Mr.

21 Stoltenberg did not give up on this -- well, actually a declaration was

22 signed later. So this was a meeting with the former president of America,

23 Clinton. There was this declaration that was signed --

24 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, just for ease of reference if we could have

25 the page number.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, I'm so sorry. The English page

2 is 192, the Balkan Odyssey. I was reading from the Serbian version, but

3 the page is different. It would be hard for me to find it in English.

4 This position taken by President Clinton was incorporated in a joint

5 declaration - I have it in English and in Serbian - in September 1993. It

6 was signed by Alija Izetbegovic; for Radovan Karadzic it was signed by

7 Momcilo Krajisnik, Thorvald Stoltenberg, and Mr. Owen. I think that this

8 was on the 21st of September, 1993. Paragraph 4, could we place the

9 English text here on the ELMO, if possible.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And under what number do we find that in the index

11 to the CD, Mr. ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After 31, then there is something

13 that's without a number. Joint Serb/Muslim declaration, September 1993.

14 The computer did not accept the number, so I couldn't -- well, see, you

15 have 1, 2, and then the third one is without a number, and then 05-1.

16 Since time is so short, I'm just going to read out the last paragraph.

17 "To this end, it is agreed that the three Bosnian parties will be

18 invited by the co-chairman of the international conference of the former

19 Yugoslavia to meet on Tuesday, the 21st of September" -- oh, I'm so sorry,

20 I made a mistake. I'm so sorry. It's not this page, it's not this

21 passage. Just a moment.

22 Could you please take another paragraph? I made a mistake. It's

23 number 5.

24 "Form a working group for outstanding matters related to the

25 territorial delimitation between the two republics in the envisaged union

1 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, including the areas of Brcko, Bosanska Krajina, the

2 Neretva valley, Eastern Bosnia, and the Ozren mountain, including the

3 natural right of the two republics to access to the sea. This is in

4 addition to the commitment already made to find a permanent solution to

5 the governance of the Sarajevo District within two years. After reaching

6 a mutually acceptable resolution to the territorial delimitation of the

7 three republics within the union and during the initial two-year period of

8 the union's existence, there shall be a provision for a referendum to be

9 held on a mutually agreed date within the republics of the union on the

10 question of whether citizens of any particular republic agree to remain in

11 the union or to leave the union."

12 This has to do with Mr. Okun.

13 Paragraph 19, please. Let me try to -- Your Honours, you saw the

14 Presidency session of Republika Srpska held on the 9th of October, 1992,

15 and it was signed by Momcilo Krajisnik. It was imputed that this was a

16 Presidency session. I assure you that that was not the case. It was not

17 a Presidency session on the 9th of October because in these minutes there

18 is no document -- or rather, this document is on the next page. You see,

19 this is what it says, that at the Presidency session held on the 9th of

20 October, a decision was reached on the appointment of an advisor to the

21 Presidency, Dr. Djokanovic. This clearly indicates that it was a

22 different session and that that was a consultative meeting. Please, if

23 possible, could these documents be admitted into evidence?

24 At that time I was not a member of the Presidency and there is a

25 document -- well, it's an article dated the 9th of October, 1992, and what

1 it says here is exactly what I marked here, that on the 8th of October,

2 1992, the president of the Assembly of Republika Srpska, Master of

3 sciences Momcilo Krajisnik, and the members of the Presidency of Republika

4 Srpska, Dr. Nikola Koljevic and Dr. Biljana Plavsic, conducted yesterday

5 afternoon exhaustive talks with the commander of the UNPROFOR forces for

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Phillip Morillon. Could that be admitted as well so

7 that you see that at that moment Momcilo Krajisnik was not a member of the

8 Presidency?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, again I do understand why the reason

10 why you present this is that a newspaper, at least, made a distinction

11 between members of the Presidency and you as a member of the -- you as

12 a -- the speaker of the Assembly or the -- so therefore, I would be

13 inclined to have this translated because it adds, if I may say so, to

14 the -- to the parties --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- Some of them suggesting that you were; others,

17 like this newspaper article, that you were not. That's, as such,

18 sufficient. We are interested to see these facts and we do understand

19 that you consider them to support what is your argument, that you were not

20 a member at the time. But that's clear to us already if you say: This

21 newspaper article supports my position, that is that I was not a member of

22 the Presidency, then that's enough for us.

23 Please proceed. And this was under what number -- this newspaper

24 article was under what number in the index?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This article -- well, no. The

1 number is number 10, but this article, I found it late last night, so I am

2 tendering it. It's not on the CD or, rather, the DVD, whereas the other

3 two are.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Under those circumstances, I invite you to -- to give

5 that document to Mr. Registrar because then perhaps a number for that

6 document, although it's not translated yet, should be assigned. It's

7 clear what it is. It's clear what purpose it serves, and upon being

8 translated we'll finally take a decision on in addition, yes or no.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

11 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that will be Exhibit D238.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, while we're just on this practical

14 matter, I don't know if the CD that Mr. Krajisnik brought this morning is

15 currently being used by anybody for any purpose. If it isn't, Your

16 Honour, if I could borrow it for five minutes I could then copy it and the

17 Prosecution could do the same. I can do that without disrupting anybody.

18 I can do it quietly while the court proceeds, if it's not in use at all.

19 Then we can, with our B/C/S speakers, we can actually make some useful

20 progress on these matters.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You want to have it now?

22 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, and I will quietly and

23 unobtrusively deal with it and the Prosecution can have it straight away.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, would you give that CD --

25 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's very helpful, Your Honour. Thank you so

1 much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: If you're copying it and if it only takes three

3 minutes, could you-- by way of exception make two copies --

4 MR. STEWART: I was going to put it on my hard drive, and then I

5 was going to put it --

6 JUDGE ORIE: You were going to put it on your hard drive. Okay.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 09 and 10, these are two

9 documents. Then -- well, the only thing I can say is that 09 is a series

10 of MUP documents. I have the numbers, too. The OTP has them ordered.

11 00633311 dated the 24th of October, 1992. The other document is 00633313

12 dated the 24th of August, 1992. The third one is 00633310, dated the 28th

13 of August, 1992. And -- well, all of these were MUP documents and then

14 this was a press release of the government dated the 17th of August, 1992.

15 The number is 01246820. These are documents which clearly show --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are documents which clearly

18 show that at that time the MUP had not been informed about camps or

19 detainees, which is supported by document number 10. It exists in English

20 and in Serbian. The English is in number 0034037 --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, at the end of this session, I will not

22 know all these numbers by heart. There's no need of quoting it. The

23 parties now have these documents available. If you want to point to these

24 documents, rather give us the facts contained in those documents rather

25 than the conclusions you draw out of it. If you say this document gives a

1 report of that and that date and you'll find no reference to camps, fine,

2 that's what we understand. To say that a document demonstrates, it's up

3 to the Chamber to see whether it demonstrates this or that, so that's

4 rather argumentative. Tell us that this is a document important because

5 it gives a report but doesn't mention camps, or it expressly denies the

6 existence of camps or whatever, so that we know what to look for on a

7 factual basis rather than on what kind of conclusions you draw out of it.

8 Mr. Tieger.

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, and I think the Court said this but

10 by urging Mr. Krajisnik not to recite ERN numbers, I wanted to underscore

11 the need to identify the document by a date or some other identifiers.

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's a MUP document, by that and that

13 date, we know better than giving all these numbers, so if you could keep

14 all of this in your mind when you proceed which you are allowed to do now.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 10 is a letter from

16 Mrs. Plavsic dated the 10th of September, 1992 -- excuse me, the 9th of

17 September, 1992, in which she confirms that she doesn't know about the

18 camps, she doesn't know about rapes, and so on, which shows that the

19 Presidency and the leadership did not know about these things.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Again, Mr. Krajisnik, what it shows we'll find out.

21 It's a letter in which -- yes -- in which --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, all right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's apparent that she doesn't know that. Please

24 proceed.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letter of the 17th of August,

1 1992, by Minister Stanisic. I can only say that it's not on the CD, and

2 he says here that he is not aware that there are camps and he's not aware

3 of any conditions in camps. This document has an ERN number --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps this is a document, since it's not on

5 the CD, which needs a number. If you would please give it to

6 Mr. Registrar, I take it, Mr. Registrar, it would be D239?

7 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be a letter from Mr. Stanisic

9 addressed to whom?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To all the security centres.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's D239, it still has to be translated. So

12 no decision yet on admission. Please proceed.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 001082, these are two documents used

14 here. One is a Tanjug report, the other a BBC report, the former in

15 Serbian, the latter in English, transmitting a statement by Mr. Karadzic

16 --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do we find them on the CD?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 08-1 and 08-2.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose of this is to show who

23 was a member of the Presidency and who was the president of the Assembly.

24 0702. The main point is that parallel institutions were created by the

25 Serb side on their own initiative, and I said that on the 30th of March,

1 1992, Mr. Izetbegovic made a statement in connection with the declaration.

2 I can read it out and I wish to have the part I have marked translated in

3 order to show that this happened before the regionalisation. If I may

4 read it, I will be brief.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, Mr. Krajisnik, I've just

7 consulted my colleagues on what we are doing at this moment. What you are

8 doing at this moment is trying to get introduced as -- well, a lot of

9 documents you find of importance. Nevertheless, to do this all in court

10 and to say this is a document what says this and this is a document what

11 says that, of course we could read that and they are -- the way they are

12 handled at this moment make them almost contextual documents rather than

13 anything else. The suggestion would be - and I'm also looking at both

14 Prosecution and Defence to comment if they would disagree with such

15 solution - is that you select the documents you consider of major

16 importance, that you add to each document not more than three lines

17 saying: This document is for this and this and this reason important, and

18 then have this material translated as quickly as possible, and then to see

19 whether we can -- whether we can accept them as contextual documents.

20 We'll hear from the Prosecution whether it's a known document to them,

21 whether they oppose, admission, or -- because at this moment you read

22 one -- couple of lines from a document, we don't know the remainder of it,

23 we don't know -- very often it's -- takes us some time to find out what

24 date it is, who wrote it, which doesn't add -- would not add very much to

25 what I suggest.

1 Mr. Josse, Mr. Stewart?

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that -- that's not problem for the

3 Defence and seems a very practical solution.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and it's not -- it's not a promise to admit

5 these documents, but it's a suggestion for a more efficient way of

6 handling these documents.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I just mention while I'm on my

8 feet.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. STEWART: It's taking slightly longer than five minutes

11 because the volume on the CD can't copy over in that time, but once it's

12 done I'll hand it over to the Prosecution.

13 JUDGE ORIE: What's the -- how many megabytes or gigabytes, is it.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, at the moment, Your Honour, it's -- I didn't

15 check that first. It tells me I've got another 11 minutes fro it to copy

16 over. It's actually quite a bit, Your Honour, and as soon as soon as I've

17 finished copying Honour. Once I've done I'll hand it over.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I see most of the documents are .pif and .tif

19 documents and hardly any word documents.

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, and I wanted to explain why it's

21 taking longer.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And finally, Mr. Krajisnik, if it's too much I want

23 to say that the material varies in, at least, relevance as far as we can

24 see at this moment of course, which is not a final judgement on the

25 relevance but it seems to be varying.

1 But, Mr. Tieger, I first give you an opportunity to respond.

2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. For the most part the

3 Prosecution has no objection to the Court's pragmatic suggestion and

4 solution. Our one concern is that the description or the additions to be

5 provided by Mr. Krajisnik may take on a testimonial aspect. And if that's

6 the case, we would want to -- we would urge the submission of that

7 material, obviously, as quickly as possible so that if they need to be

8 cross-examined they can be.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps the first thing we should have translated

10 is then the three lines explanation of what the document is because that

11 might give you a clue already on whether there's any testimonial aspect or

12 whether it's really just describing the document.

13 Mr. Krajisnik, you are invited to present the document and we'll

14 later decide what size we would even consider -- you'll also invited to

15 put them in order of priority so that if we say it's too much, it's too

16 late, then at least we start striking them from the bottom and not from

17 the top. So it's your responsibility, every document you're allowed three

18 lines to explain what this document is. Please keep in mind -- and of

19 course in your description of the document, of course you -- it may be

20 clear to us if, for example, you say: This is a newspaper article

21 which -- which characterises my position as a president of the Assembly,

22 then it's clear to us that the importance for you would be that it does

23 not characterise you as a member of the Presidency because we all know

24 that it's undisputed that you were a member of -- that you were the

25 president of the Assembly or speaker of the Assembly. So please,

1 priority. Describe them, but as factual as possible. Three lines each

2 document, and those descriptions will be the first ones to be translated

3 which might guide us, as well, in allowing further -- in allowing further

4 translations.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's 3.53 gigaytes which actually --

6 I've been referring to it as a CD, it's obviously a DVD.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, must be a DVD.

8 Mr. Krajisnik, you're invited to present these comments within the

9 next two days because it comes at a very late stage. The three lines

10 comments or description of the documents is immediately needed by the

11 Prosecution to further orient itself on the matter. So you're invited to

12 do that within two days. Yes. Then -- yes. There's -- apart from all

13 the documents, there's one other matter which I would like to raise

14 already and that is the statement of Dr. Karadzic. I mean, perhaps I was

15 a bit quick in saying that it might go to the acts and conducts of the

16 accused. Of course that's not said yet. Of course we do not know

17 anything about it. In order to make it at all possible on which might be

18 an important document for Mr. Krajisnik, it seems at least that he finds

19 it important. It might be just as important for the Prosecution. And of

20 course it's -- I take it also that it's -- depends on the content of

21 whether cross-examination would be desired. But we can't say anything

22 about that unless at least there is a translation. So I would at least

23 give a start with a translation of any statement of at least a person who

24 was close to Mr. Krajisnik at that time.

25 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour. I only rose to ensure that

1 the provisions of 92 bis weren't hurdled past until the document was

2 reviewed and the efforts the Court referred to were made.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we've got an English translation of

5 this statement and --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, if you would be able to provide it to the

7 Prosecution so that --

8 MR. STEWART: Well, yes --

9 JUDGE ORIE: And even unto the Chamber, Mr. Krajisnik wants it to

10 be a present to everyone admitted into evidence, and then we would have to

11 look at the -- apart from the formality -- well, we have to look at the

12 formalities. We have to look to whether the content goes to the acts and

13 the conducts of the accused. So therefore, to make any discussion about

14 it not without factual basis, please provide it --

15 MR. STEWART: We'll do that, Your Honour, there's no point in

16 creating extra work. We only take the point about the 92 bis procedures.

17 Karadzic is currently not available for cross-examination, which is one of

18 the items mentioned in Rule 92 bis or at least that's how we last heard

19 it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what we heard as well, and therefore it

21 might be of importance to know based on the content whether the

22 Prosecution would -- would insist on calling Dr. Karadzic under those

23 circumstances for cross-examination. If they would and he's not

24 available, then of course an admission problem would be there, not to say

25 what the outcome of that problem would be.

1 So, Mr. Krajisnik, are the instructions clear to you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am deeply grateful. I will

3 explain this very briefly, but let me just ask, Mr. President. I had

4 intended to tender a few more documents which I did not have time to

5 prepare last night before last. I was up all night working. Could I

6 explain those as well, they are important documents? And secondly, I am

7 not able to communicate with my counsel and I certainly wish them to take

8 an active part and evaluate this. I simply prepared this, but I was

9 unable to speak to them because I am not allowed to communicate with them.

10 So it was not something that I decided on my own; I just wanted to

11 ask them to tender this into evidence, this material.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, at this moment you were given an

13 opportunity to add whatever you thought, as a witness, whatever you

14 thought important to add to what has been said during your testimony. If

15 you consider these documents important, please tell us what they are -- I

16 mean, there has been so much time to prepare for your examination that --

17 and you may have spent so much time on it that you just follow at this

18 moment what you, as an intelligent man, considered to be important to add.

19 And if this includes documents, please give them to Mr. Registrar if they

20 are not on the CD, and a number will be assigned. And tell us clearly

21 what's the date of the document, what it is, from whom it comes, to whom

22 it was sent, and then again in one or two lines saying it explains the

23 position of Mr. X or Mr. Y as a deputy of Bosanski Novi,

24 whatever it is, but just a brief description, and of course any comment

25 at this moment, if you would like to add.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly Mr.

2 President, to give a brief explanation because I have based everything I

3 have to say additionally on these documents. I have nothing else to say.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you just want to say: Please look at this

5 document because it's important for me, then just describe it. If you

6 like to say: Here we have a document which clearly contradicts the

7 testimony of Mr. So -- or at least should be considered in relation to

8 the testimony of Mr. X, Y, or Z, or where he said that the barracks were

9 left on the 30th of April, but this document, as you can see, says it was

10 on the 25th of April, then we know what it is about, why you present it.

11 So please do that as efficiently and as concisely as possible.

12 Perhaps -- let me just ...

13 [Trial Chamber confers].

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, how many of these documents are there

15 that you wanted -- so that are not on the CD?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, three or four perhaps, five at

17 the most. I found them late last night. It's not a lot.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Prepare it well during the next break. Five

19 documents, three minutes each, which would allow you another 15 minutes

20 after the break. We'll -- yes.

21 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, there's one matter. The Defence

22 is wondering when we might receive Your Honour's decision on the

23 certification application because it's clear that the -- with respect, the

24 time has come when that is needed.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I will let you know this morning when you could

1 expect that decision.

2 MR. STEWART: Um --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Matters stand as they are. If we give a

4 certification, that would mean that we'll just proceed until the Appeals

5 Chamber has given its decision on it. If we do not give the

6 certification, the same would happen.

7 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, the Defence does not, with

8 respect, accept the first of the two propositions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I do not see -- is there any authority at this

10 moment which you say if we appeal a decision that would stay the effect of

11 the decision as it has been given? Is that your position?

12 MR. STEWART: Well, our position is that it gives rise to -- in

13 one of the two alternative situations, it certainly does give rise to the

14 question of a stay. We would like, Your Honour, to know where we are on

15 that application, which was made several days ago.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, we note Your Honours didn't invite, and the

18 Prosecution have not indicated that they were responding in any way, so

19 we assume that that -- that particular issue whether the Prosecution

20 respond went by the board days ago.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it if the Prosecution would have wished

22 to respond, they would have indicated so, although time has not elapsed.

23 MR. STEWART: That's what we assumed, Your Honour. Maybe they

24 mentioned it to me or Mr. Josse and I forgot.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll look at it. We'll also look at whether

1 we can come up with a decision quickly and then have it in writing to be

2 delivered at a later stage, whether we would announce to you when the

3 decision will be delivered in writing, whether there's any reason to stay.

4 I'm just now working on the -- from the top of my head, but I don't

5 remember that there was a request for a stay --

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we haven't had Your Honour's

7 decision yet, and we have not made any submissions on that. Your Honour,

8 we're trying to take things in the proper, logical sequence. Your Honour,

9 the application for a stay doesn't arise unless Your Honour's decision is

10 in a particular direction.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well --

12 MR. STEWART: But that is the position, Your Honour, with respect.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. Of course you could anticipate on

14 to say if the Chamber would not be inclined to give such a decision for

15 these and these reasons, we would like to have your present decision

16 stayed. There's nothing illogical in that.

17 MR. STEWART: There's nothing illogical, Your Honour. There's

18 enough real stuff to deal with, without a hypothetical as well.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll report to you after the break what you could

20 expect from us at this moment. We'll stand adjourned until 11.00.

21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: I can announce that the request for certification --

2 that the decision of the Chamber is that it is denied, but it will be put

3 down on paper in a written decision. And you will receive that somewhere

4 in the coming days.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. It's most helpful to know

6 that now. We appreciate that. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, for five documents, three minutes

8 each. Please proceed.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first document is a decision on

10 the return of displaced persons in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 It should be placed on the overhead projector. It would be very

12 important.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Date of the decision?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a decision that was signed

15 by Mr. Karadzic on the 2nd of June, 1992. And it was here on the agenda.

16 What I wish to indicate is the following. The date of the 20th of May was

17 in dispute, and in the heading it says that it was reached by -- let me

18 read this out. "On the basis of article 81, paragraph 2, of the

19 constitution of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the acting

20 presidents of the republic are reaching the following decision," and

21 that's Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic who were in that position until the

22 12th of May. That was just my objective, to provide this explanation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

24 Mr. Registrar -- Madam Registrar, I have to change during the day.

25 Gender issues in the UN are very sensitive. That would be D240.

1 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: No decision yet on admission since there's no

3 translation yet, or is there? But the parties are invited to see whether

4 it's in evidence already, so this is a provisional assignment of the

5 number.

6 Next one, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to provide two or three

8 pages, that is 130, 131, up to -- oh, I beg your pardon. Just a moment,

9 please. Up to 137 of this book written by academician Muhamed Filipovic,

10 I was Alija's Diplomat. The referendum is explained here -- or rather,

11 the Assembly that discussed the referendum on the 20th of January, 1992.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is a document stemming -- although from

13 later but by someone who was involved in these events and to read what he

14 wrote about --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was a member of parliament.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 Madam Registrar, that would be number D241, I take it? Yes.

18 Thank you. Same is valid in relation to the other documents since there

19 is no translation yet. No decision is taken on admission, it's just

20 provisionally assigning a number.

21 Next document, Mr. Krajisnik. I already can see that it's a

22 document of the 9th of May, 1993, if I'm --

23 MR. JOSSE: June I think.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, June, yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, 1993. That's right.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but June.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is an order issued by

3 Mr. Karadzic to make it possible for civilians and soldiers of the HVO to

4 pass through, that is to say Croats. Who fled to Serb-held territory due

5 to a Muslim offensive.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps one would --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how this document can

8 be treated, perhaps as a contextual one.

9 JUDGE ORIE: One line on what -- of course I see that you tell us

10 that Mr. Karadzic made it possible for civilians and soldiers of the HVO

11 to pass through. Is this to underline the proper humanitarian approach

12 taken by Mr. Karadzic at that time? Is that how we have to understand

13 this?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to say that there was no plan

15 of genocide against the Croats. That is the core of the problem.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. By letting them out you would

17 say that would contradict any genocidal plans. Yes, that's clear. That

18 would be D242. Yes.

19 The next document.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a document of the 1st

21 Krajina Corps dated the 23rd of June, 1992, in which it says that an order

22 was received from the Main Staff that every soldier should be familiarised

23 with the application of humanitarian law and observance of the Geneva

24 Conventions. I just have to provide an attachment here as well, that is

25 to say who this was sent to, that is to say all units of the 1st Krajina

1 Corps. And then up here it says: "On the basis of the positions of the

2 Main Staff of the Army of Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with a

3 view to guiding the members of the 1st Krajina Corps that we continue to

4 wage the war in a soldierly and honourable way. I hereby issue the

5 following order," and then it goes on.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be D243. And you say there is an

7 attachment to it, Mr. Krajisnik?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Please, please, I'll

9 provide it now as soon as I finish this. Could you just wait a moment,

10 please, and then I'll give you this attachment?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, Madam Registrar, did you receive D240, 41,

12 and 42, the originals that were presented by Mr. Krajisnik? Yes.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I give this

14 attachment later? I don't seem to be able to find my way. Perhaps I

15 could do it during the break. It's just a list of the persons that it was

16 submitted to. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So D243, the order for the Main Staff and

18 attachment of addressees --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right, I've just found it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is it clear -- can we have it on the ELMO for one

21 second?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please a bit up, Madam, the upper part.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is an OTP number at the end as

25 well.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I just have D243 together with this

2 attachment, could I just have the two of them?

3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a draft agreement on the

5 tripartite exchange of territories.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I draw the attention of the parties, although the

7 document doesn't say anything about a relation between the order itself

8 and the list of addressees, that I see that the printing information makes

9 this one, the first one, KP22010L, and the list of addressees, KP22010M,

10 which suggests a sequential order. And the same is true for the ERN

11 numbers, the order ending 860, the list of addressees ending 861, which is

12 a first indication that what Mr. Krajisnik said, that this list belongs to

13 his order might be true.

14 Madam Registrar, would you please keep them together. The two

15 documents together are D243.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Next document, Mr. Krajisnik.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a general framework

19 agreement on the trip or tight exchange of territories and

20 demilitarisation of state borders. This is based on an agreement reached

21 on access of Republika Srpska to the sea made in Dayton in 1995, that is

22 what is said down here. This is just a contextual document that this

23 access to the sea was being discussed all the time.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be D --

25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D244.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are three documents about the

3 visit of the president of France, Mr. Mitterand. There is something very

4 important here. The newspapers are Glas, dated the 29th of June, and here

5 it says he paid in visit on the 28th of June, he paid this visit to

6 Sarajevo when the agreement was reached on the handover of the airport.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom out just a tiny little bit. Zoom out,

8 please. Yes. I see it's Glas, 29th of June, 1992. Is that -- I have

9 difficulties in reading it, but -- yes, Glas, 29th of June, 1992. Yes.

10 And please continue, Mr. Krajisnik.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within this -- actually, just this

12 small excerpt where President Mitterand says on the 3rd of August that

13 rumours should be looked into as to whether there are any camps in

14 Yugoslavia. So on the 5th of August he gave instructions to that effect

15 because the Serb side was saying one thing and the others were saying

16 something else.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please have a look at the head of this page

18 to see about the date?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The date can be seen right

20 here.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see Paris, the 5th -- could we zoom in on the

22 article? Yes, it reads: "Paris, the 5th of August."

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the headline says: "Searching

24 for the truth."

25 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Yes, what as a matter of fact the -- the

1 fact that President Mitterand insisting on the matter having to be

2 investigated, what that adds to what we know already is unclear to me,

3 but ...

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He paid a visit to -- he paid a

5 visit to Sarajevo, and he heard contradictory claims made by the two sides

6 that actually deny --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, do we not have already a huge amount

8 of evidence on which the parties disagreed on whether any camps existed,

9 yes or no? I mean, we have so much evidence, the one saying there were

10 not, the other saying there were. International news media --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Witness Okun said that the Serb side

12 admitted that there was ethnic cleansing and that there was camps. I'm

13 just saying that there were different opinions involved. I am saying here

14 that he heard different views and that he is seeking the truth.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Next one.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one more paragraph.

17 JUDGE ORIE: This seems to be the 16th of August, also from Paris,

18 and it is also a publication in Glas?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This statement has to do

20 with Mr. Kouchner. The headline is: "There are no concentration camps in

21 Bosnia." And I can tell you why I think this is important.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just read such headlines and I

24 made inferences on the basis of that. I don't know whether this is

25 correct, but I'm just telling you the way it was.

1 JUDGE ORIE: So your testimony then is that you oriented yourself

2 on statements given by foreign politicians on whether or not there were

3 camps? Then I have misunderstood you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I was just trying to explain

5 that I did not have any information whatsoever except for our people who

6 were telling me that that was not correct. I did not have -- I did not

7 have any other information that was stating that this was correct. My

8 objective is for me to say that in our media there was nothing that would

9 indicate that camps existed. So in addition to the information received

10 from Karadzic, Koljevic, and Plavsic, I only read that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. That's -- Madam Registrar, that

12 would be three press clippings, and could you please -- if it could be

13 given to me. What I will do is I'll -- with a blue pen, I'll indicate

14 what portions -- yes. The second clipping doesn't say from which

15 newspaper it comes, but at least it has a date and it's a publication in

16 relation to what was said by Mitterand on the 5th of August. The three

17 clippings together, Madam Registrar, would be D245?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And only the portions I indicated need translation.

20 Mr. Krajisnik, you said five documents. We are now at six, one of

21 them a bundle. Any else -- any other document?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, I have two more documents.

23 May I present them -- I mean in addition to the one that's on the ELMO

24 now?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then try to do it in four minutes. On the ELMO we

1 have now --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- a document dated the 7th of August, 1992. It seems

4 to be a letter.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Written by Mr. Karadzic and addressed to?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the Prime Minister, Mr. Djeric.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what's the importance of this letter for us

9 to see it?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is important is that he is

11 informing him about Mr. Samaruga's report and he's issuing a letter to him

12 to the effect that his institutions should take all measures related to

13 prisons. So this was between the Prime Minister and the President of the

14 Presidency.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Resulting from the Samaruga report.

16 Next one would be, Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: D246.

18 JUDGE ORIE: D246. Next one, Mr. Krajisnik.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If these maps have not been

20 admitted, could they please be admitted now, the proposals of the parties

21 before the Cutileiro plan?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We see two maps published in a newspaper

23 article it seems. Which one could -- could I just have a look?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Three maps, three maps.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have Politika the 19th of March, 1992. I see

1 at this moment two maps. Where is the third one? There is the third one.

2 Three maps proposed by the parties in the context of the Cutileiro

3 negotiations. Is that what we should look at, Mr. Krajisnik?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that we have such maps in evidence at

6 this moment. This was published apparently; that would be D247.

7 We come to the last document, Mr. Krajisnik.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, what is it? It is a --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a report from a session of

11 Prosvjeta in Brcko that the first OTP witness, Mr. Gasi mentioned. There's

12 a report here stating that Momcilo Krajisnik was not present.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Does it explicitly say that you were not present or

14 is it ...

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Here it says who was present,

16 and it certainly would have been registered, had the president of the

17 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina attended, because this is a report.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now we have two totally different documents. We saw

19 a first page which is taken from what -- could we first go back to the

20 first page? This is published where? Where is it taken from?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was published in the

22 newspapers, and the other part -- I mean, that's the 18th of May, 1991.

23 JUDGE ORIE: One by one. Do we know what newspaper it was

24 published in?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say now, but the date is

1 written here, the 18th of May, 1991, underneath this photograph.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there is another date at the bottom of

3 the -- could we just zoom out as a whole and go to the bottom of the --

4 yes. Could we zoom in on the very bottom of this publication. It says

5 also the 18th of May, 1991. Okay. So this was published in an unknown

6 newspaper.

7 Next page.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: One second --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the speech made.

11 [Trial Chamber, Legal Officer, and registrar confer].

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, we were at the second page of

13 this document.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the speech made by the

15 representative of the Croatian society called Napredak at that same

16 celebration. And also the speech made by the representative of the Muslim

17 cultural society, Preporud. And on the first page we saw the speech of

18 the Prosvjeta, the Serb society.

19 JUDGE ORIE: On the first page we saw a newspaper clipping, which

20 is of course a bit different from the text like on the other two pages.

21 What's the origin of the other two pages? Was this provided by those who

22 have --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So we have -- although a bit of a different

25 character, we have a newspaper reporting -- at least that's what you say

1 what was said from the Serb side. And then we have pages 2 and 3

2 reflecting the speeches from the other two parties at that same meeting.

3 Madam Registrar, that would be --

4 THE REGISTRAR: D248, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

6 Mr. Stewart and Mr. Josse, D247 where it seems most important is

7 the -- that these were maps presented by the SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ in

8 relation to the Cutileiro plan. These are maps with a lot of names in it.

9 Some of the maps almost illegible, as far as the text is concerned. One

10 of the agendas to the maps being cut off in part. And I wonder whether it

11 would make such sense to have it translated. Most important seems to be

12 the different shades of grey in this black and white document. So I

13 suggest to the parties that there were two different maps with different,

14 I would say, approaches to how the territory should be attributed to the

15 different parties that it doesn't make that much sense to try to decipher

16 all the text on it and -- but at least I'd like to invite Mr. Krajisnik to

17 tell us which one of the maps was presented by which party. Could it be

18 returned on the ELMO.

19 MR. JOSSE: After that's been done, Your Honour, perhaps I could

20 address the Chamber generally about the issue of translation of all these

21 documents.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. JOSSE: So that, for example, that document, to the best of my

24 knowledge, we don't have. Certainly it wasn't given to us last week.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But before we do so.

1 Mr. Krajisnik, there are three maps. The top one was presented by

2 which party?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one was presented by the Serb

4 side, number 1 that is.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... was presented

6 by.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That one was presented by the Muslim

8 side.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And the bottom one was presented by?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the third by the Croatian side.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move to the top. I can identify more or less

12 what says this is Serb, this is Muslim, and this -- should be Croatian.

13 And then it seems that a --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: A specific -- that there seems to be one portion that

16 I don't know what it is. Could you read the fourth box of the legenda.

17 Madam Usher, you're moving it out now from the screen.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read what the fourth box says.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the jurisdiction of the Main

21 Staff of the UN, at the same time the centre of the new state. And this

22 refers to Sarajevo.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's the Sarajevo area.

24 Next, second map, please, could we move up so that -- yes. We see

25 it's cut off, but at least we see that the first -- could you zoom in

1 perhaps a little bit. It seems that what is in the first box is Serb.

2 What we see in the second box seems to be Croatian. Is that correct,

3 Mr. Krajisnik?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And the third box should then be Muslim.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Whether there's a fourth one, we do not know. But

8 let's move up so we now see the last map. There we see only one box, and

9 could we zoom in and could you please tell us what it says.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croatian side --

11 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the Croats in presenting this map were

12 more concerned --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cantons. The Croatian cantons.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that they were more interested in what

15 should be Croatian rather than to express themselves on a further division

16 between Muslims and/or -- Muslims and Serbs. Okay. That's clear. It

17 could be returned to Mr. [sic] Registrar. The parties are invited to

18 express themselves if they think there is any need to have this map at,

19 quite some effort, be translated.

20 Mr. Krajisnik, we've dealt with all the documents?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to add a last sentence or is this what

23 you wanted to bring to our attention?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for giving me the

25 opportunity to present this. Within two days I shall submit a brief

1 explanation, according to your instructions, along with the documents I

2 have placed on the DVD.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We look forward to receiving that.

4 Mr. Stewart -- Mr. Josse.

5 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, just about the translation issue.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. JOSSE: All the documents that was submitted last week we have

8 sent to the CLSS for translation. I seek some guidance from the Chamber

9 as to what should happen about today's documents. Let me emphasise, of

10 course, we don't have copies of many of these documents, to the best of my

11 knowledge at least, those that have just been handed up, and in addition

12 to that, of course, there are all these documents on the CD. Clearly the

13 Chamber, the Prosecution, and indeed the Defence want them translated as

14 expeditiously as possible. If Your Honour would prefer that I dealt with

15 the matter behind the scenes, so to speak, with one of the Legal Officers

16 and one of my learned friends. I'm happy to do that, but some guidance

17 would be helpful.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem for the Chamber at this moment is,

19 Mr. Josse, that we do not know how much work it is. That's the reason why

20 we invited Mr. Krajisnik to -- to put these documents in the order of

21 priority. I take it that they'll be printed out so that we at least know

22 what it is because it's very difficult to make an assessment on the basis

23 of this. So what we need is, first of all, a printout of these documents

24 as they appear on the CD. We then could identify perhaps already

25 documents that are already there in translation. For example, if there is

1 something from the Official Gazette, it could well it be that there is a

2 translation already, so that should be the second step. Then first

3 priority should be given to a translation of the -- of the index, as we

4 have received it now, and we could start with that immediately so that we

5 at least know how it is described. Then the next thing which is really

6 urgent is that we have translated as soon as possible Mr. Krajisnik's list

7 so that we know what he considers to be the content of these documents so

8 that they are -- and also to know what the priority is because on the

9 basis of the volume of the material and on the basis of the priority list

10 of Mr. Krajisnik, we could make a schedule on further translations. And,

11 as I already indicated, the interview with Mr. Karadzic which might be a

12 vital matter to be discussed at least --

13 MR. JOSSE: Statement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Statement, I'm sorry, yes, it's a statement.

15 MR. JOSSE: It's a statement, yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That we could start with that already. As far as

17 the -- let me just -- one second.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: So apart from the index, the short descriptions given

20 by Mr. Krajisnik and the statement of Mr. Karadzic, we'll wait to give

21 further instructions for translations -- or at least to ask further

22 assistance by CLSS on the basis of what we will know the day after

23 tomorrow.

24 MR. JOSSE: And what about the third category of documents, those

25 that Mr. Krajisnik has just handed up in the last ten minutes or so and

1 have already been assigned numbers?

2 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, they should be

3 considered in light of -- we know -- we have the three lines already for

4 them. And the parties, as far as the maps are concerned, the parties

5 could express themselves on whether they would even like to receive a

6 translation or whether the picture is good enough. And for the remainder,

7 I would very much consider that in relation or with the priority list

8 of -- given by Mr. Krajisnik, you may have observed that what was said in

9 Paris as to contradicting -- contradicting reports on the existence of

10 camps might not -- might not have the highest priority for translation.

11 So therefore, we would like to consider that also two days after today

12 when we have received Mr. Krajisnik's list and when we have received the

13 translation of the short descriptions.

14 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask that Madam Registrar provide the parties

15 with copies of the documents that Mr. Krajisnik has just handed up some

16 time this afternoon?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's -- Mr. -- Madam Registrar is invited to

18 provide you with copies.

19 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Anything else? If not, then this concludes

21 the examination-in-chief of you, Mr. Krajisnik.

22 Before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to start its

23 cross-examination, I'd first of all like to remind you -- not specifically

24 because cross-examination is starting but just because I forgot this

25 morning that what you told us this morning that you're bound, but I take

1 it you've understood that by the solemn declaration you've given at the

2 beginning of your testimony. You even referred to the fact that you're

3 expected to tell us the truth, so we understand your testimony in that

4 respect.

5 Then I have a very practical procedural issue in relation to the

6 exhibits which were introduced through Witness D24. We have D172A and

7 D172B, that is the English and B/C/S versions of a letter from

8 Mr. Krajisnik to Mr. Cutileiro. Whether it should have been 172 and 172.1

9 is still to be considered, but at least we have -- this letter is

10 provisionally admitted, and if there are any objections we would like to

11 hear from the Prosecution within the next three days.

12 Then we have Prosecution exhibits 1165, that's a request for

13 registration of news agency SRNA. We have P1167, an order signed by

14 Dr. Radovan Karadzic, dated the 23rd of April, 1992; and P1169, a decision

15 signed by Bogdan Subotic, 18th of April, 1992. These three exhibits are

16 also provisionally admitted into evidence. If within three days there are

17 no objections from the Defence, they'll become finally admitted.

18 This being on the record, Mr. Harmon, Mr. Tieger, are you ready to

19 cross-examine Mr. Krajisnik?

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.

23 I think we can take care of the necessary logistics without need

24 of any brief break, but in order to ensure that's the case I need to

25 determine whether -- we will be referring to particularly the Assembly

1 sessions of 1991, 1992, early 1993 I think with some frequency --

2 JUDGE ORIE: We have bundles of a lot of sessions on our desk. I

3 wouldn't say it's a complete set, otherwise -- there's also this -- if we

4 have clearly identified which Assembly session we are talking about, even

5 if they have different numbers, it might not be necessary to always

6 refer -- to refer to all the numbers. Choose the one from which you're

7 working, and we'll then follow that.

8 MR. TIEGER: Very well. And I would ask that a set of those

9 materials be made available to Mr. Krajisnik so he has them as we proceed

10 in the examination.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got only the English here, but is there a

12 B/C/S set?

13 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, we have prepared --

14 MR. JOSSE: To the best of my knowledge we don't have the material

15 in that form. I may be wrong about that.

16 MR. TIEGER: I think I actually distributed those to Mr. Stewart

17 in both English and B/C/S the -- some time back.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

20 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, my fault.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you will find it. A B/C/S copy will be

22 given to Madam Usher so that she always can present the document which we

23 are focussing on at that time to Mr. Krajisnik.

24 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. TIEGER: And in addition, Your Honour, there are bundles of

3 materials which are appropriately tabbed which I'd like to have

4 distributed to the Court and to the Defence and to Mr. Krajisnik.

5 JUDGE ORIE: These are not Assembly sessions, they are other

6 documents?

7 MR. TIEGER: They're either other documents, Your Honour, or

8 post -- they are Assembly sessions that are not contained in the four

9 binders that have been distributed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is additional material.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, is there any chance we could have an

12 extra copy, because otherwise only one counsel will -- thank you. Is

13 this on its way? Am I stealing somebody else's right now?

14 MR. TIEGER: I don't know precise -- I don't know how many copies

15 were prepared. Obviously if there is an extra copy, we're happy to

16 provide you with two, but I don't know if logistics allow that.

17 MR. STEWART: We've got two at the moment. So if nobody else is

18 deprived currently, everything's already.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Theft, missing matters, can be reported to the

20 registrar.

21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, over the past several weeks you've had an

3 opportunity to respond to questions from your counsel, and I recognise

4 that some of those questions were intended to provide you with an

5 opportunity to tell as much as you could about the particular subject

6 involved. During my examination, I will be focussing you on particular

7 aspects of events in 1991, 1992, and the relevant periods of time. I will

8 be asking you to listen carefully to my question and just

9 respond to the question I ask, rather than use them as a point of

10 departure for elaboration. If I want or the Court wants or if your

11 counsel subsequently wants you to provide additional details about any

12 aspect relating to those questions, you will then be asked. And I know

13 you've had a chance to sit through cross-examination and understand that.

14 Correct?

15 A. Yes, I agree.

16 Q. During the early part of your testimony, I think it was day two

17 in fact, you indicated that in 1991 and 1992 the Muslims were the most

18 numerous people in Bosnia and Herzegovina and that indeed, due to the

19 birth rate, they would relatively soon become an actual majority of 51

20 per cent rather than a relative majority in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 There was, in fact, concern among the deputies of the Bosnian Serb

22 Assembly and among the Bosnian Serb leadership about the birth rate of

23 Muslims- correct- in 1991 and 1992?

24 A. Perhaps it's not formulated all that well, but I did speak about

25 it and I could confirm this if I were given a chance to explain further.

1 Q. Well, let me direct your attention by way of focussing that to

2 certain comments and remarks and positions taken by Bosnian Serb deputies

3 and Bosnian Serb leaders. First if I could ask you to turn to tab 2. And

4 in particular, Mr. Krajisnik, if you could turn to the B/C/S at SA043638.

5 MR. TIEGER: And in the English that would be page 12,

6 Your Honours.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. This is a different

8 marking, 0103 --

9 MR. TIEGER:

10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the usher will help -- will assist you. I think

11 you're looking at an Assembly session --

12 A. Yes, number 2.

13 Q. Okay. Excuse me, could you just tell me the number and I'll find

14 it right away?

15 Q. SA04-3638, page 12 of the English. Again, for the benefit of the

16 usher, I think you're looking at the Assembly sessions which are in

17 binders. I'd like you to look at the tab bundle that was provided. The

18 usher now has it. It's to your right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It's approximately the last from the handwriting, the

20 last three digits 638. 638, the last three.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. You'll see they are note taken at a 24 December 1991 meeting of

24 the Bosnian Serb Political Council, and in particular the articles of

25 Professor Najdanovic who you had occasion to mention during the course of

1 your Professor Najdanovic said at the Political Council: We can split up

2 on the basis of the recent census. What happens to Serbs in Croatia," and

3 then he goes on. And his last two sentences are: "What are our maximum

4 borders? We need a single Serbian state which cannot be inhabited by

5 Muslims because they would overwhelm us with their birth rate."

6 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, that was an expression of concern about the

7 perception that Muslims had a birth rate that would soon make them a

8 majority population and the prospects that was understood to cause for

9 Serbs. Correct?

10 A. The Muslim birth rate was certainly an element that caused concern

11 for Serb deputies and other Serbs.

12 Q. And I'd like to look at other reflections of that concern and the

13 extent of that concern. You mention Goran Zekic a couple of times - a few

14 times, I think, in your testimony - most recently on May 24 you recalled

15 Mr. Deronjic's testimony, as you recalled it, that Mr. Deronjic considered

16 him a major contact between the leadership and Mr. Deronjic. And before I

17 turn you to Mr. Zekic's comment, that perception would be consistent with

18 what Dr. Karadzic told the Bosnian Serb deputies on February 15th, 1992,

19 at the 7th Assembly Session, and that can be found at page -- if you turn

20 to the 7th Assembly Session, sir. That's in the binder.

21 A. Am I supposed to put this away now?

22 Q. We'll be -- Mr. Krajisnik, we'll be moving back and forth, so keep

23 all this material as handy as possible. There's no -- we'll be --

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, I need to redistribute for the

1 benefit of the Court and, indeed, for Mr. Krajisnik the B/C/S translation.

2 Apparently the one provided was for the stenogramme; this one is for the

3 transcript which appears in the English portion of the text.

4 Q. The particular portion, Mr. Krajisnik, is found at page SA011631.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Actually -- and I think 1632, excuse me, and in English at page

7 58.

8 And there Dr. Karadzic says, and it may help you to identify that

9 passage quickly, "something tells me that Mr. Krajisnik is going to

10 conclude the proceedings soon, so I would like to make two requests. The

11 first request is addressed to Krajina deputies. I am asking them to work

12 a lot with our people there, with party membership, to explain our

13 strategic goals and to explain our tactics on a daily basis."

14 And that would be one of the reactions of the deputies in 1991 and

15 1992. Correct?

16 A. I don't understand. Are you referring to the strategic goals that

17 are an object here or our general aims, our policies? This was at a

18 session of the 12th of May.

19 Q. I realise the strategic goals were initially articulated in that

20 formal way in the 16th Session. I'm not addressing myself to the

21 strategic goals discussed on May 12th at the moment. I simply want to

22 confirm that Dr. Karadzic told the deputies that one of their roles was to

23 explain the goals and tactics of the Bosnian Serbs to people in the field,

24 to the party membership.

25 A. But excuse me, which session is this? Is it the one of the 15th

1 of February? I can't see.

2 Q. It is the 15th of February, [indiscernible] session.

3 A. That's why I said that he is referring to the strategic goals of

4 the party, whereas the 16th Session of the 12th of May was the Assembly

5 session at which the six strategic goals were enumerated. So is your

6 question about continuity between these goals?

7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, again I will ask you to listen to my question

8 rather than concern yourself about its potential implications. I'm simply

9 directing myself to the role of the deputies, as instructed by

10 Dr. Karadzic on February 15th, 1992, and that was, at least in part, to

11 explain the goals and tactics of the party and of the leadership to the

12 party membership. That's right, isn't it?

13 A. On this occasion, Mr. Karadzic spoke about the policy of the

14 party, and it's true, you're right, he was saying what our strategic goals

15 were. I'll ask you one thing, please. When I don't understand your

16 question, then I ask you. I'll be as expeditious as I can, but if you

17 only tell me what you are alluding to. I couldn't make a link between

18 these two things.

19 Q. Now, I had asked you about Goran Zekic, one of those deputies

20 whose responsibility it was to explain the tactics and goals. And if you

21 could turn to the 11th Session, please. And that's page 46 of the B/C/S,

22 Mr. Krajisnik, SA02-5757, and page 33 of the English.

23 A. I'm so sorry, I cannot find my way. I don't have it here. Can

24 somebody help me with this?

25 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Krajisnik, to be fair, did say something in his

1 own language which wasn't translated and I think -- I am told by one of

2 our team he said: Is it in the binder?

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are sorry, they did not hear

4 the comment.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters have not heard it, but let's

6 just go on the basis of the assumption that Mr. Krajisnik said such a

7 thing.

8 MR. JOSSE: I can assure the Court he said something.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this is a session held on --

12 A. I just have to ask you to give me time to find the session, and

13 I'll give you an answer straight away.

14 Q. Of course?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I take it that usually you would know

16 what documents you would like to address the attention of Mr. Krajisnik to

17 in advance?

18 MR. TIEGER: As a general matter, Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'd like to have one copy to be prepared

20 which in sequential order gives green or blue or red tabs like these kind

21 of things so that we don't have to spend one minute again and again on

22 finding the right pages. And if you would put that tab not only on the

23 relevant document, but even already on the relevant page, and then we

24 could certainly work far more efficiently.

25 MR. TIEGER: I agree, Your Honour, thank you. And we will attend

1 to that at the first opportunity we get.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, have you found the 11th Session, and in particular

5 have you found page 46 of the B/C/S? It's a short address by --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- Mr. Zekic. And in the second paragraph before he concludes he

8 says the following, referring to ongoing discussions.

9 "The arrangement will never happen, and with their birth rate

10 they will gradually stifle our territories, too, and we shall find

11 ourselves in a difficult situation."

12 Mr. Krajisnik, that's an expression of concern that the Muslim

13 birth rate --

14 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honours, it appears that there was some

15 difficulty with the Court finding that particular part.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it was on page 33 you said?

17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, page 33, three paragraphs from the

18 bottom and two paragraphs from Mr. Zekic's comments.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's page --

20 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer].

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which exhibit number are we working from,

22 Mr. -- Because it seems that we don't have Mr. Zekic speaking on the

23 bottom of page 33. Yes, I take it that it's page 32 -- yes, semi-last

24 paragraph. Is it the paragraph starting: "All negotiations will

25 continue"?

1 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, it is.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That's page 32. But here again we're working from

3 different documents.

4 MR. TIEGER: This document, Your Honour, is SA02-5710 through

5 SA02-5780, which is P65 Treanor 10 tab 109.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We have a set of documents in which the actual

7 version used appears in the -- appears in the index in bold. What I

8 would like to be done is that we are working from one and the same

9 document. So therefore, I don't know whether this is the same -- I don't

10 know --

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, just so everybody knows what

12 everybody's got, I've got the same one that Your Honours have, and that's

13 the hyper-linked one that we were using during the evidence in

14 examination-in-chief.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm trying to consult with my legal

16 staff.

17 MR. STEWART: Sorry, I was trying to be helpful, Your Honour.

18 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer].

19 JUDGE ORIE: The parties will be provided with the index of the

20 document we are working with, which gives in bold the -- the version that

21 is copied for us. So we have in our binders. And the parties are invited

22 to follow that list with -- yes --

23 MR. TIEGER: Yes, of course, Your Honour. With respect to this

24 particular session, I note a problem that we have seen before and it may

25 be specific to this session, it may be true of a couple of others as well,

1 and that is there are, essentially, two cover pages. My recollection is

2 that in one of the copies only one of the covers was copied, changing the

3 sequence by one page or thereabouts.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I do remember that we had this specific

5 problem in relation to one of them, therefore, most likely, this one. All

6 right. Therefore we will always deduct one page from your number being,

7 but nevertheless you will be provided for future events and check whether

8 the version you're working from is the same one as put in bold in our

9 list. Please proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I believe I had asked you, looking at Mr. Zekic's

12 comments, whether that was in fact an expression of concern about the

13 effect, the perceived effect, of the Muslim birth rate on Bosnian Serbs

14 within Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is that with their increasing birth

15 rate Muslims would gradually stifle out territories and, therefore, the

16 Serbs would be in a difficult position. That's what he was saying.

17 Right?

18 A. Yes, but the context is very important, why he is saying this, and

19 I would like to explain that.

20 Q. Well, the -- we've had a long time to talk about context,

21 Mr. Krajisnik. We know this occurred on March 18th. We'll be talking

22 about the period of March and the Cutileiro discussions. I presume that's

23 the context to which you want to draw our attention, so unless it's

24 something other than the status of discussions with the Muslims and Croats

25 and the international community, I prefer to move on to the extent to

1 which the Bosnian Serbs were concerned with and focussing on the Muslim

2 birth rate?

3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, there's a fair balance to be

4 achieved here. The Defence would entirely accept that Mr. Krajisnik

5 should not be allowed a wide-ranging exploration of other issues in the

6 case; on the other hand, he should be allowed in the normal way to give a

7 supplementary explanation of a succinct answer because witnesses are

8 encouraged to give a short answer on the understanding that they will be

9 able to expand with some explanation. There is a balance to be achieved,

10 Your Honour, but not simply to shut him out.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the question you've put to Mr. Krajisnik

13 only was whether this was what Mr. Zekic said. Well, that's, as a matter

14 of fact seeking verification of the correctness of the transcript of this

15 session, which --

16 MR. TIEGER: I think I asked -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

17 apologise for interrupting the Court. I think I asked whether that was an

18 expression of concern of the potential consequences of the --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just have a look.

20 You started saying: I believe I had asked you whether that was,

21 in fact, an expression of concern. And then you continued and the end of

22 your question you said: That's what he was saying. Right?

23 And then you repeated the language Mr. Zekic used on paper, so

24 finally -- your real question finally was whether that was what he said,

25 which of course the Chamber can read unless there's any specific reason to

1 assume that in this respect the transcript is not correctly reflecting

2 what has been said, but I don't think that you were seeking to establish

3 that.

4 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, perhaps the Court will permit me

5 to rephrase the question and then clarification --

6 JUDGE ORIE: But the other issue remains whether Mr. Krajisnik

7 should be allowed -- Mr. Krajisnik, if such a question is asked to you,

8 we'll allow you in one or two lines to say, yes, but you should consider

9 this in the context of -- well, let's say the specific question of the

10 North East of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Zekic came from the north-east,

11 so we do allow you to add comment if you think it's of importance. We do

12 not allow you to start a long a long story. So we allow you to explain

13 the comment in one or two lines. You're allowed to draw our attention to

14 some specific contextual issue that is drawn by the answer.

15 Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in fact the Bosnian Serb leadership and the Bosnian

18 Serb deputies were concerned that -- about being overwhelmed by Muslims

19 based, at least in part, on their -- on the perception that they had a

20 high birth rate - isn't that right - that was the essence of concern about

21 the birth rate?

22 A. Yes and no.

23 Q. And in what sense no, sir?

24 A. No because the Muslim birth rate never bothered the Serbs for the

25 sake of the birth rate; that is a private matter for every individual and

1 for every nation.

2 Q. I think we can all accept that. What the Bosnian Serbs were

3 concerned with was that the birth rate would lead to too many Muslims

4 within Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it?

5 A. No, no. The essence is different and I can explain.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to find out.

7 The birth rate changes the balance between the several ethnicities

8 or nationalities. That has its consequences in terms of numbers of voters

9 stemming from that nationality. Is that what finally was of concern?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That did not concern the Serbs.

11 There was something else that concerned the Serbs, and can I explain that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Not too long. Really, try to be as

13 concise as possible.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I'll try.

15 The Serbs were worried because the Muslim side advocated a unitary

16 Bosnia, and they gave up on the agreement reached. And within a unitary

17 Bosnia, one man would have one vote. And already they started behaving in

18 an unconstitutional manner, and by having a majority they would simply

19 seal off the Serbs in Bosnia. The Serbs did not complain even before

20 because there were more Muslims, no way. So that was the reason. It's

21 not the birth rate, it's not the fact that there are more Muslims, no.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Just for my -- just for your

23 guidance, Mr. Krajisnik, listening to your answer, which certainly took

24 more than two lines, what you could have said is that we were concerned

25 about this, also in view of the tendency of the Muslims to act

1 unconstitutionally. Because all the remainder what was said by you that

2 the one man/one vote is confirmed by you. Mr. Tieger hinted at that, I

3 hinted to the same, but you want to specifically add to that that where

4 the Muslims were inclined to behave or had shown, as you said, to behave

5 unconstitutionally, that that was making it a real concern. So you could

6 have limited to that aspect, at least if I understood you well.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER:

9 Q. The --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd have to be as

11 wise as a Judge in order to be able to give that kind of a short answer.

12 I'm trying to be as brief as possible. I do apologise, indeed, but I'm

13 just trying to be helpful, to help you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I appreciate --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. The perceived Muslim birth rate would lead to an increase in the

18 number of Muslims and an increase in the number of Muslims constituted, in

19 the eyes of the Bosnian Serbs, a threat to their living space. Isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. That is not correct, and can I explain why it's not correct.

22 Q. Well first, Mr. Krajisnik, do you recall hearing in 1991 or 1992

23 expressions of concern about the threat represented by Muslims to Bosnian

24 Serb living space?

25 A. No. It was the moving in of the Muslims that was a threat in this

1 space and building without building permits. It was the unconstitutional

2 behaviour of the Muslims caused concern, not the fact that there were more

3 of them.

4 Q. All right. Let's separate that then. It is true that the Bosnian

5 Serbs were concerned about threats to their living space, regardless of

6 whether it was attributable to the increase in Muslims through their birth

7 rate or the increase in Muslims through immigration or the influx of

8 people from outside?

9 A. They were only concerned because of the immigration and because of

10 the unlawful behaviour, nothing else, of the Muslims that is.

11 Q. And part of that concern was the perception that Bosnian Serb

12 living space was jeopardised. Correct?

13 A. No. I mean, it was the survival of the Serbs in general that was

14 under threat, not the space. There was a lot of space, even more than

15 necessary. It was human rights that were under threat.

16 Q. And when you say the survival of the Serbs, you mean the

17 biological, physical survival of the Serbs?

18 A. No, no. Quite simply, you have a will imposed on you that

19 violates your national interests, if somebody had a majority in that way

20 and behaves unconstitutionally that is.

21 Q. Well, let me turn your attention to a couple of comments made in

22 1991 and 1992 in your presence to the living space of the Bosnian Serbs.

23 First in the binder with Assembly sessions 1 through 7, if you could turn

24 to the 3rd Assembly Session. And please turn to -- please turn to page 39

25 and 40 of the B/C/S version?

1 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honours, page 27 of the English. Excuse

2 me, page 26.

3 Q. This is Mr. Kupresanin, one of the regional leaders in the

4 Krajina, speaking. He begins his comments at the top by saying that he

5 absolutely agrees that we should proceed with separating Serb territories.

6 And then he continues at the seventh small paragraph, they're short

7 paragraphs, sir, saying: "I personally think that our living space and

8 the territory in which we live and work is endangered and we have to avert

9 that danger, actually we have to prevent Muslims from moving into our

10 territories and regions."

11 MR. TIEGER: If the Court's having any trouble finding that, I

12 believe the --

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, we have no trouble.

14 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

15 Q. And if I could ask you before -- also to look at the 5th Assembly

16 Session, as long as we're in that binder, page 41 of the B/C/S and page 43

17 of the English. This is a session held on 9 January 1992, where the state

18 was proclaimed, and reflects the comments at that portion of Mr. Cancar

19 saying: "This is the final democratic human and legal measure and

20 possibility for the Serbian people to be on the upper-most plain of its

21 national being, so that its living space may not shrink and the borders in

22 which we live may not be smaller than those within which we die."

23 A. Could you just tell me what paragraph that is? I can't find it.

24 Q. Sure.

25 A. 41? Yes, yes, I'm sorry, I found it, yes.

1 Q. It starts in the middle of the page.

2 A. Yes, I found it. Thank you.

3 Q. Now, essentially, Mr. Krajisnik, in those comments Mr. Kupresanin

4 and Mr. Cancar were expressing the concern that the -- that Muslims

5 jeopardised those parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina that were considered

6 Bosnian Serb living space. Isn't that right?

7 A. Kupresanin is saying because they were moving in, and that's

8 correct. And in the first paragraph he says that we have a large

9 territory, and that's correct, too.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I note the time, and since the Court was

11 urging us -- anyway, I note the time.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break until five minutes to 1.00, and

13 I'd like to be provided with a B/C/S copy of these minutes as well so that

14 we don't lose unnecessary time. We stand adjourned.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, one of the things that Bosnian Serbs expressed

20 concern about and professed fear about Muslims in 1991, 1992, and indeed

21 afterwards, was that the Muslims were allegedly going to set up an Islamic

22 state. Correct?

23 A. There were individuals who spoke in this manner; that's correct.

24 Q. And, indeed, some of those people spoke about that possibility in

25 very striking and strident terms - isn't that correct - and charged that

1 that was a real possibility about which the Bosnian Serbs had to be

2 afraid?

3 A. A certain number of people spoke in a way that was out of place

4 and hard-line. You're right there.

5 Q. And when those people spoke it -- well, first of all, did you

6 share the hard-line views about that subject?

7 A. Could you clarify a little? What are you referring to in

8 particular, in order to be more precise?

9 Q. Well, I thought we were both speaking about the allegations that

10 Muslims were about to establish -- or intent on establishing an Islamic

11 state. And you said that there were certain people who spoke about it in

12 a way that was out of place and hard-line, so I assumed that you had a

13 notion of what that was. So did you consider that some allegations about

14 the establishment of an Islamic state were not hard-line and some were

15 hard-line; and if so, what's the distinction?

16 A. Some people used derogatory names such as balija, Turks, they'll

17 shake in their pants, things like that, because Mr. Alija Izetbegovic's

18 Islamic declaration had been published and they were referring to that. I

19 did not share those opinions nor did I use that vocabulary.

20 Q. Did you ever use the term "Turks" in referring to Muslims?

21 A. Never did I use it, except in one conversation by telephone which

22 somebody misinterpreted, but it was not my vocabulary. I always said that

23 they had a right to be Muslims, and I would defend that right.

24 MR. TIEGER: Can I ask to have the portion of the 33rd Assembly

25 Session distributed, please?

1 Q. Now, you'll see in this small packet of materials, Mr. Krajisnik,

2 the comments of Mr. Kupresanin followed by yourself. The English part --

3 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, I'm moving too quickly, Your Honour. The

4 relevant English part is found on page 66 of the English --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Now, that's a speech or comments by you, Mr. Krajisnik, which

8 begin: "Since Vojo Kupresanin has asked me this question, I believe we

9 have to understand something, we have strategic goals," et cetera. And

10 then further on in that passage at the second paragraph you say: "If you

11 want to put it like that, a half of my village is in Turk's hands.

12 They've come to a hundred metres from my house."

13 Now, I take it that's not an expression -- that's not a reference

14 to Turks from Istanbul, that's a reference to Bosnian Muslims. Correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct. You are right. I don't know if ever I used

16 such a word, but I did use it here speaking about the Muslims in a

17 derogatory manner. I was embittered because they had taken my village. I

18 had forgotten that. But yes, you are right, they had taken half of

19 Zabrdje and that is what I said. I was thinking of another instance.

20 There was a telephone conversation, but I don't recall having said that.

21 However, I believe it's correct, although I never normally used such a

22 term.

23 Q. Now, we talked a moment ago about hard-line statements, and you

24 asked me what I meant. So let me ask you this question: Would you

25 consider a comment before the Assembly along the lines of the Muslims and

1 Croats -- referring to them as the two-headed dragon, and then observing

2 that "they want to have us imprisoned in the dark realm of Islam in the

3 sheepholds where there is no -- there cannot be place for the peoples and

4 historical culture and nation-building qualities."

5 Would that be a comment of the type that you had in mind when you

6 were referring to hard-line and inappropriate comments?

7 A. I think that what I said "in Turk's hands" is inappropriate and

8 what they were doing there. This is not a comparison to the Turks. It

9 would be an honour for any Muslim to be compared to the Turks, but they

10 were calling us Chetniks. What you said is not derogatory; it's wartime

11 vocabulary, which is bitter, and people said all sorts of things that I

12 disagreed with. I never said anything derogatory about them, but what I

13 said about Turks, I'm -- I've seen this for the first time now, that I

14 said that, actually, and I think it would be a bad thing for people to use

15 that vocabulary in public. Just as they say "Chetnik," that's derogatory,

16 too, and I think that's inappropriate.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I ask you: Is the position of the

18 Prosecution that Mr. Krajisnik usually used these words or that

19 occasionally in relation to his own home village he may have done so? I

20 mean, we spent a lot of time on something where I did not gain the

21 impression, until now, that apart from some other words Mr. Krajisnik may

22 have used during telephone conversations, which we would call not

23 parliamentary expressions. What are we listening to? To occasionally

24 using strong word or are we -- or is it more? If it's more, then please

25 spend your time on it as you wish, but of course just as I said to the

1 Defence that they should prioritise, the same is true for you. We have

2 limited time.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, I directed your attention to a particular

5 comment about the two-headed dragon and being imprisoned in the dark realm

6 of Islam. So perhaps we can turn to the 24th Session at page 32 of the

7 English, and look at the comments of Mr. Bulatovic for a moment, which I

8 referred to. And that will be -- that's contained at page 26 of the

9 B/C/S.

10 A. 24th Session?

11 Q. I think that may need to be distributed, Mr. Krajisnik. Beginning

12 at the bottom of page 32 of the English, and as I indicated on page 26 of

13 the B/C/S, Mr. Kovacevic says: "The two-headed dragon has opened his jaws

14 over the Serb people in order to swallow it, to destroy it, to wipe it off

15 the face of the earth. Both heads, the Islamic one as well as the Vatican

16 one are equally dangerous for us, all those democracies and democratic

17 principles of Europe and those who find it acceptable want to push us into

18 Alija's democratic state to have us imprisoned in the dark realm of Islam

19 where in the sheepholds where there is no -- there cannot and must not be

20 placed, but the people and nations of the historical cultural and

21 nations-building."

22 Now, would you consider that to fall within the category of

23 hard-line statements of the intention of the Muslims to form an Islamic

24 state or one of the more moderate professions about that intention?

25 A. This is not a moderate profession. I can only give you the

1 context and explain why he said this. I do not agree with this sort of

2 description.

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if you didn't agree with it, why did you comment

4 immediately after Mr. Kovacevic's remarks: "I have to conclude that you

5 are the best when you have opponents. Now Europe is the best inspiration.

6 Thanks to Mr. Kovacevic for this speech"?

7 A. Shall I explain why I said this? Is that what you're asking me?

8 Q. I'd like you to explain how that's consistent with your position

9 that you disapproved of this language and thought it inappropriate.

10 A. He is a wonderful speaker from Herzegovina who enchanted people

11 with his wonderful speeches. I knew every deputy well and what he

12 thought. I wanted to soften, to mitigate his discussion, by telling him

13 he was a good speaker in order to scatter ashes on all this. The point of

14 the discussion was something quite different, and this was just an aside,

15 his personal opinion. And had I told him he was in the wrong, we would

16 not have come to our goal. So this does not constitute approval; on the

17 contrary.

18 Q. Did I understand you correctly to say earlier that you did not

19 claim -- that you yourself did not claim that the Muslims were trying to

20 establish an Islamic state, that it was others who were making that claim?

21 A. What I'm saying is that the Muslims wanted to create a state in

22 which they would dominate. Dominate. And this would be under the

23 auspices of a civil state without three constituent units, and the

24 principal would be one man/one vote. In that case all of Bosnia would

25 fall under Muslim power. You can call it a Muslim state or whatever you

1 like, but that's how it was and that was my opinion when they went back on

2 the fundamental agreement. And they still want to do this. Under the

3 mask of a civil state, what they really want to do is create a Muslim

4 state and that's what the Muslim leadership wanted.

5 Q. And when you say "a Muslim state," you don't mean a state in which

6 the Muslims were a majority, you mean an Islamic state. Correct?

7 A. No. I mean that those Muslims from Bosnia and Herzegovina, who

8 have nothing to do with the kind of radical Islam that exists in the east,

9 wanted their nation to be dominant and their state -- the state to be

10 dominated by them. These are gentle people, very different from the ones

11 we see on television in the Middle East, but they wanted this to be their

12 state and they wanted to dominate in it, and they still want to do that

13 today.

14 Q. So now we go full -- come full circle and come back to my

15 question. I think we all understand the effect of majoritarian rule in a

16 unitary state with one man/one vote, which I think is essentially what you

17 explained to us. My question is whether you were among those who in 1991,

18 1992, 1993 claimed that -- and that what the Muslims wanted, in fact, was

19 the establishment of an Islamic state.

20 A. I was saying that they wanted to create a Muslim state. I don't

21 exclude the possibility that I used the word "Islamic." What is certain

22 is they wanted their own Muslim state. We have a hundred pieces of

23 evidence to prove this. They wanted all of Bosnia or at least part of it.

24 If I use the word "Islamic," that was because I was referring to the

25 Islamic declaration of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, although I don't believe I

1 used that term. But if I did, what I actually meant was a Muslim state.

2 They wanted to have their own state and they still do.

3 Q. Well, let's take a quick look at tab 14, if we can then. It's

4 page 7 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S.

5 A. Just a moment, please.

6 Q. Of course.

7 That's an interview with you, Dr. Karadzic, and -- well, by Risto

8 Djogo and you and Dr. Karadzic in 1993. And during the interview you say

9 the following: "The dominant current and the one enjoying greater support

10 is the Sandzak one, as we call it. They are the ones who started this war

11 and forced the Muslim people, if we can call them that, into a desperate

12 situation where we have to fight for mere survival and who continue

13 encouraged by fundamentalists from the east and aided by the West to try

14 using primitive tactics cunning get tactics which is unattainable, an

15 Islamic state within the existing state."

16 So that's one occasion, Mr. Krajisnik, where you alleged that it

17 was the intention of the Muslim leadership to establish an Islamic state.

18 A. One part of the Muslim leadership, those people from Sandzak, yes,

19 that's correct. Mr. Filipovic said the same in his book. You can find it

20 there, but not Mr. Izetbegovic. However, he had to appease that arrogant

21 majority.

22 Q. Okay. Well, I don't see that distinction being made here and I

23 don't see that distinction being made on February 28th, 1992, when you

24 address the Deputies' Club?

25 MR. TIEGER: And if that could be distributed if that's not

1 available.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I supposed to comment on this? I

3 don't know if I was sufficiently clear. Should I comment on what you

4 asked me about?

5 MR. TIEGER:

6 Q. I would suggest you wait until we address a related subject in the

7 next document. That's a relatively short document, and on page 5 --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: At the top of the document it says: "Addressed to

11 the so-called Assembly of the Serbian People." You introduced it as the

12 Deputies' Club. Is there any --

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, my recollection is we've referred to

14 that -- it has been identified to by the -- I'll double-check, but I think

15 throughout the course of the case that has been --

16 JUDGE ORIE: It may well be --

17 MR. TIEGER: -- the understanding of this and related documents.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. So turn to page 5 of the English. It's a very -- it's almost the

21 end of your comments, Mr. Krajisnik. It's the portion just above the last

22 paragraph on page 03617692. And there you say: "We are telling you what

23 they really want. They want the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24 they want the currency, they want a unitary BH, they want an Islamic

25 state."

1 And you --

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So that's another occasion on which you advised and told the

4 deputies of the Bosnian Serb Assembly that what the Muslims wanted to

5 establish was an Islamic state. Correct?

6 A. These are negotiations at Cutileiro's, and we are now providing

7 information on what the others wanted in our estimation. I was saying

8 what some of the negotiators had said. This wasn't a reference to all of

9 them, just some of the negotiators. I didn't want to be a member of this

10 negotiating team; you can see that.

11 Q. Which negotiators said that the Bosnian Muslims wanted to

12 establish an Islamic state?

13 A. In the course of the negotiations among the three parties when we

14 were discussing, we sensed that somebody wanted to create an Islamic

15 state. I'll give you an example. They said: What shall we do about the

16 return of the people who left Bosnia once? And they were referring to 8

17 million Muslims who went to Turkey about legislation and so on. So these

18 were negotiators; it wasn't that it was their standpoint.

19 Q. Well, I think that's what I tried to ask you in the first place,

20 Mr. Krajisnik, whether you were one of the people who claimed and told

21 others that the Bosnian Muslims wanted to establish an Islamic state, and

22 that is one example of that. Correct?

23 A. No, I wasn't saying that. I was just saying what the impressions

24 from the meeting had been, and I wasn't referring to Izetbegovic but to

25 the people from Sandzak. If you go back to the first one, you'll see, and

1 there were different people who were saying the same.

2 Q. In fact, Mr. Krajisnik, the dispute with the Muslims and Croats in

3 Bosnia was characterised by the Bosnian Serbs as essentially a battle with

4 their traditional enemies.

5 A. Yes, some people spoke in those terms. Some did, not everybody.

6 They were denying the Muslim nation and they were attributing to it a

7 continuity with the Turk occupiers in history and also the Muslims in

8 World War II.

9 Q. In fact, the Muslims were considered to be not only historical but

10 perfidious enemies, cunning enemies who threatened the Serbs and had done

11 so historically.

12 A. Could you please tell us at what time and then I'll give you my

13 reply.

14 Q. Well, let's begin with the period that we've been talking about

15 1991, 1992, and on, so I'm talking about the time immediately preceding

16 and shortly after the outbreak of the conflict and extending into the

17 conflict. Or did there come a time in your view when the Muslims began to

18 be considered cunning, historical, and perfidious enemies?

19 A. The last is true, and I'll explain why. Up to the time when the

20 government was constituted, we had been partners, respected each other.

21 And until the declaration was made by force, we were respected. However,

22 when the crisis broke out people began to speak in the way you are

23 describing. When there was no agreement, the rhetoric changed. It was

24 rhetoric, but there were people who did think that. During the war they

25 constantly thought of the Muslims and the Croats as enemies, and they

1 thought of us in the same way.

2 Q. Now, the Muslims and Croats, as tensions increased, were seen as

3 historical enemies who threatened to enslave, subjugate, and even destroy

4 the Serbs. Correct?

5 A. Let's leave the Croats aside. The Muslims -- well, in terms of

6 rhetoric, Serbs were saying that they were historic enemies, and they were

7 saying things like that when there was a crisis. Once the crisis would be

8 over, the rhetoric would change. Now, what they thought was a different

9 matter, so this came and went in waves. I'm talking about public

10 statements, things that the public was aware of.

11 Q. Well, the rhetoric was either for the purpose of expressing their

12 views or for the purpose of convincing others to share that view or both.

13 Right?

14 A. Well, it depends on who was speaking. I think that the rhetoric

15 was understood as a democratic right, that every speaker can say what he

16 thought. At that point of time, a time of crisis, about a certain

17 phenomena or a certain people. So they thought no one could deny them the

18 right to say what they thought. In a closed session it was considered as

19 if they had said nothing at all, I mean if the media were not covering

20 this, but there were media broadcasts. There were MPs in the joint

21 Assembly who were saying that against the Muslims. You can find that in

22 the stenographic notes of the joint sessions of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 and the other way around, the same.

24 Q. Of course. And there's no question when Bosnian Serb deputies and

25 Bosnian Serb leaders told other representatives of the Serb people or the

1 Serb people directly, that the Muslims would enslave them or subjugate

2 them, or that Serbs were again facing genocide, that they were doing so

3 for the purpose of telling them how they should respond to this dispute

4 with the Muslims. Isn't that right?

5 A. That is absolutely not right, absolutely not right. Because in

6 any crisis the generally accepted view was the one that you heard from one

7 side and the second side and the third side. So no one needed to be told

8 anything. The evil genie got out of the lamp once the crisis broke out.

9 You didn't have to persuade anybody of anything; everybody already thought

10 the other side were their enemies, when there would be a crisis, a moment

11 of crisis, that is.

12 Q. So when Rabija Subic said at the 4th Session, "We're threatened by

13 the same enemies again," and Mr. Zekic said at the same session, "our

14 ranks were depopulated by genocide thanks to the certain enemies of ours

15 that have arisen again." And Dr. Karadzic said that "the Muslims at the

16 5th Session were preparing laws to subjugate us, wasn't that all for the

17 purpose of convincing everyone that a unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina could not

18 be accepted no matter what? And that whatever had to be done to prevent

19 it should be done?

20 A. That conclusion is absolutely wrong. Let me explain. Rabija

21 Subic is a Muslim married to a Serb, in all fairness. She was saying what

22 she thought. She was not a member of the SDS, she was a member of a

23 different party. Mr. Karadzic spoke about the Muslims giving up on

24 something that we had agreed upon because they want to enslave us, and

25 that's right. They did not agree on a Bosnia consisting of three units,

1 but they wanted a unitary Bosnia. Through the violations of the

2 constitution, they wanted to turn us into a national minority, and that

3 is the essence of the problem and that was correct, if somebody gives up

4 on something once agreement had been reached.

5 Q. And the bottom line of all that rhetoric, of all those expressions

6 of positions about the threat of being enslaved and so on was that Serbs

7 could not live with Muslims. Isn't that right?

8 A. No. I'll tell you why the answer is no. On the 14th of October,

9 a law was passed by force, that is to say apart from the constitution,

10 that is to say on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Muslims

11 said that they did not want to take into account our view. In September a

12 decision was reached that nobody would impose any solutions on anyone;

13 that was in 1992. And only a month later, they impose a solution. So the

14 normal response is: If you are imposing a solution now, that means that

15 you don't want to live with us. We are just interpreting what we saw on

16 the spot. It's not the Serbs who made the first move, it was the Muslims

17 and the Croats. If we didn't want to live with Muslims and Croats, we

18 would not have accepted Bosnia and we would not have said that all three

19 peoples were equitable. They didn't want to stay with the Serbs because

20 they said they could not live with the Serbs in Yugoslavia. Those are the

21 facts. That's what the Muslims said, and the Croats.

22 Q. Well, irrespective of what you consider made the first move,

23 Mr. Krajisnik, the Bosnian Serb deputies and the Bosnian Serb people were

24 told by their leaders that they couldn't live with these people, they

25 couldn't live with the Muslims. Isn't that the bottom line?

1 A. No. This is what the essence is: If the Muslims do not want to

2 live with us in Yugoslavia, if they want to impose a unitary Bosnia on us

3 in an unconstitutional way, then we are rightfully afraid to live with

4 them in a sealed-off Bosnia-Herzegovina where they are dominant. That is

5 the whole truth.

6 Q. On February 28th, the same Deputies' Club, Dr. Karadzic -- and let

7 me put this February 28th in context, as you recall. That was a session

8 at which there was a lot of discussion about the concern that the

9 Autonomous Region of Krajina, about the ARK, unifying with the RSK. And

10 Dr. Karadzic spoke about the potential consequences of what he considered

11 to be a stupid move and what he, and you, opposed. And what he said

12 was: "Imagine the stupidity of it. The conflict in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina is basically a conflict among peoples, just as it was the case

14 between India and pack Stan, that's nothing new, it resulted in a huge

15 resettlement of the people. Muslims cannot live with others. We must be

16 clear with that. They could not live with the Hindus who are peaceful as

17 sheep, that's the Indian religion, they couldn't live with them. They

18 couldn't live with the Greeks on Cyprus, they couldn't live with the Arabs

19 of Lebanon of the same language, same faith, there can be no discussion

20 here, and yet they set up the Bosnian Krajina, and yet in two years' time

21 you have problems again because they are overwhelm you with their birth

22 rate and their tricks. We cannot allow that to happen."

23 Now, that's a clear expression to the Bosnian Serb deputies who

24 were supposed to get that message to the party membership and the Bosnian

25 Serb people that Serbs couldn't live with Muslims. Isn't that right?

1 A. You asked me to explain this, I assume. You don't want me to

2 repeat the quote?

3 Q. I'd like you first to answer the question before you try to

4 explain it.

5 A. I don't know whether that's correct. I can believe that it was

6 written that way, but let me explain that that was what the position was

7 and I'll tell you why. Mr. Karadzic, that is to say not to have a

8 unification of the two Krajinas, why he mentioned India, Pakistan, all of

9 that, I'll explain all of that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the first question is the what

11 question, and then only comes the why question. The what is, and that is

12 a question put to you. Mr. Tieger asked you whether this is a clear

13 expression to the deputies, who was supposed to pass this message to the

14 party membership and the people, that Serbs couldn't live with Muslims.

15 Is it that or not?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not right and I want to

17 explain why it's not right.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The first question is that. Tell us not why he said

19 it but where the language seems to be relatively clear, why it is not what

20 it seems to be at first sight.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, because he said that

22 the Muslims didn't want to live with the Serbs, because they didn't want

23 to stay in Yugoslavia with the Serbs; that's as far as the Muslims go.

24 But I can explain the point of it all.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so but keep it concise.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Vance Plan envisaged some

2 regions for the Serb people, that is to say the UNPAs, and Croatia was

3 treated in a different way. We had our own plan, and we wanted that to be

4 carried through, and that is the Lisbon-Sarajevo agreement. And now the

5 people from the two Krajinas meet and what they want to do is to break-up

6 Bosnia and Croatia. And Karadzic says: That is crazy. And of course he

7 is using different words in order to persuade them the basic point, and

8 that is to say not to have this unification, because in that way we would

9 be the ones who are breaking up Bosnia. So that was the point. And we

10 prevented that because they wanted to unite, the late Milan Babic and the

11 others, and we did it with such great difficulty.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, if Serbs can't live with Muslims, then,

14 insofar as possible, the territory on which -- the territories of Serbs

15 should be pure. And that's exactly what you said on February 28th, isn't

16 it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let me ask you to turn -- okay --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps let me just explain. This

21 here is the adoption of the Sarajevo agreement, and in it we clearly

22 stated that we want to live with the Muslims on the 28th of February.

23 Find it and you'll see. Three constituent units. Karadzic fought

24 against another hasty move, the unification of the two Krajinas, and he

25 resorted to different devices in order to say this. The Muslims didn't

1 want to live with Serbs in Yugoslavia, and that is why he said that the

2 Serbs couldn't live with the Muslims. If they cannot live with us, how

3 can we live with them? And they want a unitary Bosnia. Well, quite

4 simply, he wanted to persuade them as far as this main thing is

5 concerned, not for the two Krajinas to unite. So this is on the occasion

6 of the Lisbon agreement. We said we wanted to live together about the

7 Muslims in a single state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. And on --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, these pure territories. Can

11 I explain these pure territories?

12 JUDGE ORIE: If you can do it in one minute, then do so, otherwise

13 we'll have to wait until tomorrow.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Less than a minute, less than a

15 minute. I thought that when the map was being drawn there should

16 be as many Serb territories as possible according to the principle

17 envisaged by the Lisbon Agreement. Not to be megalomaniacs and demand areas

18 where the Serbs did not have a majority. That was all of my philosophy.

19 That was a reference to the Lisbon Agreement. Not any kind of ethnic

20 cleansing or anything else. Mr. Prosecutor, that is the explanation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I got the message from the Court's last

23 comment.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Tomorrow is a new day.

25 Before we adjourn and before I instruct you, Mr. Krajisnik, not to

1 speak with anyone about the testimony already given and still to be given,

2 I'd like to deal with one matter. The Chamber is a bit concerned about

3 all the translations which may still have to be produced. The Chamber

4 also, in the existing translations, including the statement of -- which I

5 would not call yet a 92 bis statement, but at least a statement, a written

6 statement given by Mr. Krajisnik, we would like to -- and the Chamber

7 would also actively be involved in that to see whether that translation

8 which is not a CLSS translation or is it --

9 MR. STEWART: No, it's not, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We would like you to disclose it as soon as possible,

11 that is still today, to the Prosecution, also to the Chamber, so that we

12 can have a look at least on whether it's material that can be used at all

13 at this moment on the basis of the translation.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, would it not before she with respect,

15 would it not be better for -- well, it doesn't matter, Your Honour.

16 That's all right.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if you could please make a copy and give it

18 even today because we are, of course, running out of time, all of us, to

19 both Prosecution and to --

20 MR. STEWART: Could I just ask, I'm wondering, Your Honour, what

21 status it will have if we do not elect to put it in under 92 bis?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Krajisnik said he wanted to tender it.

23 Then --

24 MR. STEWART: In what way -- yes, well, it's --

25 JUDGE ORIE: He offered it to the Chamber. The Chamber will have

1 a look whether it's material that could be accepted in accordance with

2 this offer. It's happened before. We've now and then had witnesses who

3 said: I've brought this or that and the Chamber said: We'll have a look

4 at it and see whether it's material that could be -- that could be

5 admitted or accepted into evidence, then whether it's Defence tendered or

6 Prosecution tendered or Chamber-called evidence is another matter to

7 decide. First of all, we need to know what it is, whether it is in a

8 format to make it accessible at all to us. So therefore, you're invited

9 to give a copy to Defence and to the legal staff of the Chamber even

10 today.

11 MR. STEWART: Yes, may I just say, Your Honour, Mr. Josse and I

12 have we have considered some of these issues before. We would, in a

13 sense, like to reserve our position because we'd really like to consider a

14 whole lot of aspects of how various bits and pieces are dealt with and

15 what their status is, but I won't take time today, Your Honour, but it's a

16 general reservation of concerns of our position in relation to that

17 matter.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, Mr. Stewart, and at the same time to

19 say the unorthodox way of introducing all this material creates problems

20 for the Chamber as well and we have to find practical solutions for that.

21 And this does not mean that at a later stage you would be in a position to

22 say: For this and this reason, although offered by a witness the Defence

23 would not want to be the party who supports or introduces this material in

24 evidence, and you could even consider your position when the Chamber would

25 like to have this material available as evidence.

1 MR. STEWART: Well, I think also, Your Honour, that's absolutely

2 right, Your Honour. Defence counsel's concerns probably stem from the

3 fact that Defence counsel made very little contribution to the adoption of

4 unorthodox ways of introducing material.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I'm not blaming you for anything.

6 MR. STEWART: I understand it's not blame, Your Honour, in the

7 least.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's expected to be disclosed to Prosecution and

9 legal staff of the Chamber this afternoon.

10 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour, I wish to mention one thing. The

11 very last answer Mr. Krajisnik gave today is going to have to be reviewed

12 in the morning. Mr. Sladojevic tells me there is a translation

13 difficulty.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then you have even some 18 hours to what was said

15 originally and how it appears in translation. We'll hear from you

16 tomorrow if there's any need for correction. We'll adjourn until tomorrow

17 morning, same courtroom, 9.00, and I announce to the parties that on

18 Wednesday we'll stop a little bit earlier because there is a bureau

19 meeting, so 20 minutes earlier than usual on next Wednesday -- this

20 Wednesday.

21 We stand adjourned.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of

24 May, 2006, at 10.00 a.m.

25