1 Thursday, 1 June 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.17 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. We have a late start, both
6 because Mr. Krajisnik had to go to the dentist and for technical problems,
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
12 First of all, Mr. Krajisnik, I was informed that there will be a
13 follow-up dentist appointment next week. We are sitting in the afternoon,
14 so therefore if that's in the morning, it does not in any way interfere
15 with the court sessions. That's one.
16 Then second, you have provided the --
17 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I, just on that subject --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. JOSSE: I haven't spoken directly to Mr. Krajisnik. I
20 gathered that he had a relatively major piece of dentistry carried out to
21 his mouth this morning --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we start the examination I certainly would
23 have asked Mr. Krajisnik whether the consequences of it could have been
24 that he was --
25 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I didn't forget that.
2 There's another matter. For sure by now 12 exhibits have not been
3 assigned a number, and I invited the registrar to keep a list and then to
4 assign numbers. That list is not yet ready. Nevertheless, we'll continue
5 today numbering exhibits with 12 numbers in between. There might be 13th
6 or a 14th or a 15th, and then that would not be a chronological order.
7 That's then a pity, but that is something we can live with. So at this
8 moment, 12 numbers will be kept open for that list and then we'll
10 Mr. Krajisnik, before we resume the -- the examination -- the
11 cross-examination, I'd like to be informed on whether the treatment this
12 morning by the dentist would have influenced your -- your abilities to
13 concentrate on questions, to answer questions. I can imagine that some
14 anaesthetics were, for example, applied, and whether you yourself have any
15 indication that you would not be fully able to testify in this court,
16 could you tell us --
17 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: It was suggested by my legal officer whether this
19 should be done in private session. I don't think that this is such a
20 personal matter. I mean, anaesthetics have their effect or do not have
21 any effect. So I'd just like to know from you whether you feel
22 comfortable in continuing or not.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to continue the
24 examination. If you're asking whether I have a tooth ache, well, yes, I
25 do. It's quite a tooth ache; my nerve was extracted. But I would like to
1 continue this examination.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please feel free, and please even accept that the
3 Chamber would appreciate that if at any moment you feel that this tooth
4 ache would negatively -- have a negative impact on your ability to
5 testify, please tell us immediately because we don't want to take any risk
6 in this respect.
7 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps not a surprise, I remind you that
8 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning
9 of your testimony and I'll invite Mr. Tieger to proceed.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, yesterday we reviewed a number of telephone
15 conversations involving Mr. Cizmovic and Dr. Karadzic, and I was about to
16 present you with one more when the session adjourned yesterday. I'd like
17 to do that now. That's found at tab 71 --
18 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, that's not correct. Tab 75.
19 And I believe this will need an exhibit number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1192, Your Honours.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Now, P1192, as I mentioned, is a conversation between Mr. Cizmovic
23 and Dr. Karadzic on March 1st, 1992. And, Mr. Krajisnik, if we can look
24 first at the middle part of the first --
25 A. Could I please read it? May I? I've never seen this before. May
1 I read this, please?
2 Q. Of course. And before you review it - and I hope quickly - let me
3 -- Mr. Krajisnik, I was going to mention that I'll be bringing your
4 attention to about the tenth line down the first page, Mr. Cizmovic
5 talking about people calling him a leg-man or, I think in that context,
6 meaning an errand boy, something to that effect, and continuing on for
7 about ten lines, and I'll also be turning your attention to the last line
8 of that conversation where Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Cizmovic talk about his
9 position. Those --
10 MR. TIEGER: And for the benefit of the Court, those passages are
11 found in the middle part of page 1, the top part of page 2, and the first
12 half of page 3.
13 JUDGE ORIE: While Mr. Krajisnik's -- Krajisnik reads it, I must
14 admit that the word "leg-man" is not familiar to me and it is repeated
15 several times. Could someone explain to me what it is.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Gopher.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which brings me another word. I'm sorry.
18 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I make this suggestion --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JOSSE: -- that Your Honour ask Mr. Krajisnik what he
21 understands that term to be in his language.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. JOSSE: In other words --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I then, of course, have to identify the word in
25 B/C/S, which is --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "Potrckalo" in B/C/S.
2 JUDGE ORIE: "Potrckalo," Mr. Krajisnik; could you tell me what
3 that is.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Potrckalo," in Serbian, Bosnian,
5 and Croatian means someone who is a lackey. When you tell them: Run off,
6 do something, "lackey" would be the best word. That's a person who does
7 whatever you ask him to do.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I can see you're reviewing this conversation with
11 considerable -- in considerable detail and with a great detail of
12 scrutiny. It may be more helpful if I direct you to -- if you review it
13 enough to be familiar with its general contents and then I then direct you
14 to the particular portions of interest which I already indicated to you.
15 A. Just a moment, please. I'm about to finish. Sorry, just a
17 JUDGE ORIE: Next time --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- even if there is a long conversation you have not
20 read before, we'll allow Mr. Tieger to put a question, and if it appears
21 reasonable that you would have to read the context in order to answer that
22 question, you certainly will be given an opportunity to do so, but it's
23 also imaginable that he's asking explanation of one specific word used
24 where it's less important.
25 So next time, Mr. Tieger, you may put a question to Mr. Krajisnik,
1 and if there's any need for Mr. Krajisnik to read the context, whether
2 it's reasonable, then of course we'll allow him to do so.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, as appears from the conversation, it seems that
6 Mr. Cizmovic at this point is expressing some concern about the way he's
7 being depicted by others. The question was asked about the meaning of
8 that particular word and we find it in the early part of the conversation
9 when Mr. Cizmovic says: "Well people are calling me, they tell me I'm a
10 leg-man -" which we've also heard as gopher and which you've explained as
11 lackey - "and many other things."
12 The conversation goes on: "What kind of a friend is that, what
13 kind of a leader is that who is calling his Government coordinator a
14 leg-man? Is his absolutism so ...?"
15 And Dr. Karadzic, as he does through the conversation, tries to
16 reassure him. He says: "Ah, fuck them. They want ... it's clear what
17 they want ..." et cetera.
18 It continues on the next page, where Dr. Karadzic makes reference
19 to: "We'll quiet things down. If they print something like that, I'll do
20 something to fuck them up."
21 And then Mr. Cizmovic says: "... I know all the contents
22 outside. But I simply believe that I wasn't a leg-man, and I didn't
23 accept to work as a leg-man. I accepted to do what I could do."
24 Dr. Karadzic says: "We are all leg-men for the Serbian people and
25 you can say that freely, we're all leg-men for Serbian people. We are not
1 leg-men for any party or any personality but for Serbian people. We are
2 all rushing to do this, and we could all do something else."
3 And then I indicated earlier I would turn your attention also to
4 the last part of the conversation which appears at the first half of page
5 3, and the third page of the intercept for you as well, Mr. Krajisnik, in
6 the B/C/S.
7 Karadzic: "I'm telling you, tell me how you would like to define
8 it, and we'll define it as you wish, considering that, that ..."
9 Cizmovic: "What, what was I now until now?"
10 Karadzic: "So far you were the coordinator of the Ministry
11 Council for the relation with municipalities. It was a very ..."
12 Cizmovic: "With the governments?"
13 Karadzic: "Yes."
14 Cizmovic: "I think that it's the third-highest position in
15 Republika Srpska."
16 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, when Mr. Cizmovic tells Dr. Karadzic that in
17 his view the position Mr. Cizmovic holds is the third-highest position in
18 Republika Srpska, can you assist us in identifying who he would have meant
19 as the two positions higher than his or the two persons who were his
21 A. I could just guess, but this is a conversation where he promotes
22 himself to high office. He wants to become Prime Minister of the future
23 government. At least, that's my reading of it. How could he possibly be
24 the number three person when there is a president of the Council of
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you asked whether Mr. Krajisnik would
2 assist us in identifying who he would have meant. Mr. Krajisnik started
3 his answer by saying: "I can only guess." Guessing does not assist.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I accept that. However, sometimes
6 that's simply a turn of phrase intended to mean the person can't precisely
7 know what is in the mind of the person but then proceeds to provide
8 information that assists the Court in identifying, and I think that may be
9 what Mr. Krajisnik was attempting to do at that point, but I will be alert
10 to those clues.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber finds it useless to continue these kind
13 of guessing exercises or speculations. Please proceed.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, do you know to whom Mr. Cizmovic reported during
16 1992 -- the latter part of 1991 and 1992?
17 A. I really don't know. Maybe there are some reports that you could
18 give me and then I can give you my comments.
19 Q. I'd like to turn next then to the 6th Session of the Assembly of
20 the Serbian People held on January 26th, 1992. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, this
21 was an extraordinary session of the Assembly of the Serbian People, as is
22 reflected in your introductory remarks on the first page. And on the
23 agenda, as you indicate, there was one item. "Analysis of the proceedings
24 of the 9th Session of the Bosnian Assembly, including the measures and
25 decisions taken." And then a discussion of that issue results.
1 I'm not interested in the specific details of the conduct of the
2 session -- of the 9th Session of the Bosnian Assembly, but in essence,
3 Mr. Krajisnik, was it the case that that was another step forward in the
4 movement of the Muslim side toward the independence of Bosnia?
5 A. Well, yes, you're right.
6 Q. Okay. And let's -- a bit more specifically, that was a movement
7 toward the holding of the referendum that could lead to the -- to
8 recognition by the European Community and independence. Is that right?
9 A. Maybe this has been misinterpreted. A decision was passed, that
10 is to say an unconstitutional decision, on a referendum on independence
11 for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that was done by the Muslim representatives.
12 That is the last session that I presided over, even after the veto of the
13 Serb side. The interpretation I heard was "initiative." It was not an
14 initiative; it was a decision.
15 Q. And in response to that, a special and extraordinary session of
16 the Assembly of the Serbian People was called to review what had happened
17 and determine what should be done in response?
18 A. Yes, you're right.
19 Q. Now, I don't know how well you recall that particular session by
20 memory so, if necessary, I'll be happy to direct your attention to
21 particular portions. But is it fair to say, in your view, that various
22 deputies were calling for measures to be taken, for action to be taken,
23 for progress to be made toward the completion of tasks necessary to define
24 Serbian ethnic territory and establish organs in those territories?
25 A. Could I please be given the possibility to explain later? And now
1 I want to say something else to you. It's not only that. There were all
2 sorts of proposals there, very radical proposals, if you are referring to
3 the Assembly of the Serb People. But I ask and request that I explain why
4 this was the case.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is this information you'd like to receive
6 from Mr. Krajisnik?
7 MR. TIEGER: No --
8 JUDGE ORIE: The why --
9 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, I wasn't directing my attention to
10 the why at this point. It may be relevant during the course of other
11 questions, and in that case Mr. Krajisnik could be in a position to
12 provide that information, but no, it's not necessary to move forward.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You're first interested in what rather than why it
14 happened, so then please proceed.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not say if
17 Mr. Tieger wishes this to be done; I am asking, requesting, that I be
18 given an opportunity to explain because you've always allowed me to do
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Tieger is limited in his time. I
21 allowed you to add anything at the end of your testimony. Mr. Tieger at
22 this moment is seeking answers to a question on what happened during that
23 session, and at this moment rather wants to spend time on that than on
24 explanations why things happened. If this is of great relevance, perhaps
25 in re-examination Mr. Josse will re-visit these matters.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Well, irrespective, Mr. Krajisnik, of the precise nature of the
4 suggestions made by the deputies, however radical they may have been and
5 the range of suggestions that may have been made - and all that
6 information is available to the Court - in the Assembly session, that's
7 what people were talking about; what to do in response to the actions
8 taken at the 9th Session of the Bosnian Assembly.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Cizmovic, as we've heard before, also spoke at that
11 session and spoke relatively early, at page 13 of the English -- actually,
12 before I get to his comments, let me note that he spoke just after
13 Mr. Vjestica and Mr. Novakovic. Mr. Vjestica spoke at the beginning of
14 page 10 of the English and at SA025256 of your version --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, yesterday it was minus one, today it's
16 plus one. Please proceed.
17 MR. TIEGER: That's probably not precisely the kind of balance the
18 Court would like me to strike.
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's just for the record that people can -- are able
20 to find it at a later stage.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Mr. Vjestica indicated he wanted to be as brief and to the point
23 as possible, spoke initially about the need to adopt the already-mentioned
24 constitution, and then continued at the fifth paragraph about the need for
25 representatives and commissions of autonomous regions to work
1 simultaneously with the commissions in Sarajevo on the preparation of all
2 documents of the autonomous regions so that laws can be adopted, and then
3 continued on to the top of page 11 in the English - and I think still on
4 page 5256 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik - "All these duties are immense
5 because we are setting up our own state. In carrying them out, there must
6 be a great deal of discipline, hard work and respect for, if I can call it
7 like that, the centre."
8 He goes on to propose the need for deadlines, suggesting the 15th
9 of April [sic], because the work is extensive, and states that: "The
10 operative plan should be drawn up to define tasks precisely, those charged
11 with executing them, and the deadlines for their completion. People to
12 whom these tasks are to be assigned should openly say if they can carry
13 them out. Those who feel unable, should say so now and allow us to select
14 those who can."
15 Sorry, and I read the 15th of April, I believe the text says, and
16 I -- the 15th of February.
17 So, Mr. Krajisnik, is it fair to say that at an early stage of
18 this session, in response to that single agenda item, the discussion
19 became quite concrete?
20 A. Yes, people presented various specific proposals.
21 Q. And I had indicated that Mr. Cizmovic then spoke shortly after
22 Mr. Vjestica, and he began his comments by saying: "Esteemed President,
23 ladies and gentlemen.
24 "In respect of the proposal that has been submitted and which was
25 to be scheduled to be decided upon now, I would like to point out there is
1 something that implies dynamics."
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --
3 MR. TIEGER: Too fast, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. He then goes on to mention the Council of Ministers and the need
7 for the council to submit a programme and deadlines for completion of
8 tasks. "These deadlines should be met."
9 So like Mr. Vjestica, Mr. Cizmovic is also being concrete in his
10 suggestions to those assembled about what response should be taken?
11 A. I cannot know because I haven't read it. I believe so, but I
12 would have to read what he said, and I believe he did speak about specific
13 proposals, although this doesn't look like a specific proposal concerning
14 borders, but he must have spoken in the same vein as the others.
15 Q. And then about six paragraphs from when he begins, on page 13 of
16 the English and SA025260 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Vjestica says
17 - and this is something that was read out to you by Mr. Stewart during
18 the course of your examination-in-chief -- Mr. Cizmovic, thank you.
19 Mr. Cizmovic says: "To solve this problem, I propose that we
20 begin with an urgent operationalisation and a declaration on the
21 establishment and promulgation of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina. Tasks set out in the instructions of 19 December, 1991,
23 should be carried out."
24 A. Can you just tell me where that is. I haven't found that
25 particular passage, although -- yes, I found it. Yes.
1 Q. Now, as we can see, Mr. Vjestica -- Mr. Cizmovic not only makes
2 explicit reference to the Variant A and B instructions, but states that:
3 "The fulfilment of those instructions is precisely what is required to
4 move forward toward the establishment of Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina," and to respond to the -- to what you call the illegal
6 actions taken by the Bosnian Assembly at the 9th Session. You said during
7 the course of your direct examination, Mr. Krajisnik, that you didn't pay
8 attention to this reference or you didn't note the reference because Mr.
9 Cizmovic was -- because you were paying attention to the main topic, or
10 you were only paying attention that day to the main topic of discussion.
11 Isn't it the case, Mr. Krajisnik, that Mr. Cizmovic was directing his
12 attention -- his remarks were all about the main topic of discussion that
14 A. None of those points made by Cizmovic are contained there. I
15 didn't notice that he mentioned instructions. He referred to the
16 declaration about establishment. There's nothing about A and B, and it
17 does say "19th December," though, which seems to justify your theory. But
18 at that moment, I really didn't pay attention to that. Just point me to
19 one thing that has to do with the instructions.
20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, when Mr. Cizmovic referred to himself as occupying
21 the third-most important position in Republika Srpska at that time as
22 coordinator of the autonomous regions for the Ministerial Council, you
23 seem to indicate that you didn't think that was the case and that he was
24 angling for an even more important position than he held. But is it fair
25 to say that the person who was tasked with responsibility to go from
1 municipality to municipality to ensure that the objectives of Dr. Karadzic
2 and the Ministerial Council were fulfilled was perceived by the persons in
3 those municipalities as having an important function?
4 A. No, no, Mr. Prosecutor. We had Neskovic who had the same job.
5 There were hundreds of representatives of Mr. Karadzic like that whom he
6 sent into the field, and he's a member of the Ministerial Council. He was
7 coordinator of autonomous regions. In the Ministerial Council, he was
8 just a member. The Ministerial Council had its president, but he was
9 blowing his own horn, trying to make himself seem more important than he
11 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'll remind you that we've seen the minutes of the
12 2nd Session of that Assembly where concern was expressed about the pace at
13 which the conclusions of the first meeting were being fulfilled and that
14 Mr. Cizmovic was charged with what had to be seen by the Ministerial
15 Council and by you and Dr. Karadzic, who attended that session, as being
16 an important task.
17 A. No. I -- what I understood I said at the session and you didn't
18 let me read it. There need to be a -- there needs to be a distinction
19 between what the Ministerial Council is doing, the government, and the
20 Assembly. Find it, find the relevant Assembly session. Cizmovic is an
21 excellent lawyer, but I don't see why this would be an important post that
22 he held. That's what I said and that's my conclusion.
23 Q. When you say "there needs to be a distinction between the
24 Ministerial Council -- between what the Ministerial Council is doing, the
25 government, and the Assembly," are you there -- did you use the term
1 "government" there as a synonym for Ministerial Council, or were you
2 suggesting that the Ministerial Council, the government, and the Assembly
3 were all separate organs at that time?
4 A. If it says there what is written in Serbian, I said that a
5 distinction needs to be made between what the Assembly is doing, the
6 Ministerial Council, and the party, meaning the SDS. I don't think
7 "government" is written there. That's my -- from my memory. I don't have
8 the background material in front of me. So between the Ministerial
9 Council, the party, and the Assembly - "party" meaning SDS. I wanted
10 basically everyone to do their own job.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask there one question just in between.
12 Mr. Krajisnik, it -- I understood your last answer to be that
13 party, Assembly -- they all had their own responsibilities. At the same
14 time, what seems to have been a party document, that is the 19th of
15 December instructions, were discussed and introduced as -- not only once.
16 If at least we would accept that this is a reference to the A and B
17 variant document are discussed at non-party sessions because the Assembly
18 sessions were not party sessions but were Assembly sessions, which gives
19 the impression, at first sight, that party matters and Assembly matters
20 would not always clearly be separated. Could you assist me in whether I
21 did perceive this in the right way or whether I should look at it from a
22 different point of view. Please proceed.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Mr. President, I remember that
24 it was just mentioned. I don't remember the instructions A and B were
25 ever discussed at the Assembly. But you're right. Very often people
1 tried to impinge on other people's responsibilities, and that's why I
2 wanted to strictly divide jurisdictions. I wanted everyone to do their
3 own job. So if that was the job of the party, the responsibility of the
4 party, then let the party do it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but here again, Mr. Krajisnik, we have a -- a
6 little problem. We do not read here that you say: That's a party matter,
7 I don't even know what you're talking about, so let's keep it out. Your
8 answer now says: It should have been separated. That's not what we read
9 at that time. So therefore, we are trying to establish what actually
10 happened at that moment, and of course sometimes your present views on the
11 matter assist us in understanding it, but of course it could not replace
12 what happened at the time.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was talking about
14 the meeting of the Ministerial Council, and there I said that
15 jurisdictions should be divided, that we should know who is doing what at
16 the 2nd Session, whereas here, if you want to know why I didn't react, I
17 can explain.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you could do it briefly, please do so.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's very simple. I probably
20 understood the first sentence that -- about the declaration on
21 establishment and proclamation of the Serb Republic. That was clear.
22 That was our responsibility. As for these instructions, I'm not going to
23 claim they didn't exist, I don't know whether they existed. But I didn't
24 -- it didn't stick in my memory. I didn't remember that, although it may
25 have been distributed right in front of me. I'm not denying they existed.
1 Maybe they did exist, maybe somebody was handing them out standing right
2 next to me. But it was never the subject of discussion at an Assembly
3 session. It was never the subject of division of activities. If you see
4 this contribution recorded here, then it must have been said, but I never
5 dealt with that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you may have missed the point, but
7 where you say it has never been the subject of discussion, Mr. Cizmovic
8 makes proposals on the basis of these instructions, whether or not it was
9 followed up, et cetera. But to that extent, it has been introduced during
10 this Assembly meeting, at least if the reference is to the Variant A and B
11 document. But let's not further discuss that. But I'm just pointing at
12 what seems, on the basis of these minutes, to be a fact.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you said that these instructions were never the
16 subject of discussion at an Assembly session. The next Assembly session
17 after the 6th Session, that we've just been looking at, was the session
18 held on February 15th; and the day before there was a meeting which was an
19 extended session of the main and Executive Boards of the SDS and the
20 Deputies' Club on 14 February. And we can find that located at tab 70.
21 And at page 5 of the English and page 04002200 of the B/C/S,
22 Mr. Krajisnik --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- Dr. Karadzic says: "Now it seems to me, and that is also the
25 opinion of Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik" --
1 A. Let me just find that passage. Could you point me to the line so
2 I can follow.
3 Q. It's about eight lines down from the top, and you'll probably
4 easily find the names Koljevic -- it says Koljevica and Krajisnika.
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And again, quoting Dr. Karadzic: "Now it seems to me, and that is
7 also the opinion of Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik, that now it would be
8 more important to gain the real situation, the factual situation on the
10 Then he continues, about eight lines down: "Now that the main
11 attitude towards Yugoslavia during this entire interfering of the European
12 Community was that the Serbs were right, but that the factual situation
13 was so-and-so. Now we are in the position to say - yes, maybe the Muslims
14 are right, but the factual situation is so-and-so, although they are not
15 right. The factual situation is so-and-so, now it is so, now it's up to
16 us. It's up to each individual to do his part of the job."
17 And as we've seen, Mr. Krajisnik, at -- in earlier parts of the
18 case, Dr. Karadzic then goes on to make four separate references to the
19 initiation of stage number 2. And I can direct your attention to those
20 specifically, but I suspect that you may recall having seen those and
21 heard those during the course of this case. But I'm happy to do so
23 MR. TIEGER: For the benefit of the Court, those are located at
24 pages 5 through 6 of the English, page 7, page 17, and page 24.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you tell me where it is for
1 me. I have this 220 page. But it doesn't matter. If you -- if you say
2 that is so, I can just comment.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. I directed your attention to those, Mr. Krajisnik, as you recall,
5 in response to your comment that this was never discussed at an Assembly
6 session. And while this is not an Assembly session, it's a meeting
7 attended by those people who are present at Assembly sessions.
8 A. Yes. Mr. Karadzic says here that factual situation should be
9 taken over, because we didn't have power where we had won it. That's one.
10 It says also that we have to be just towards Croats and Muslims, that
11 nobody should run away from our territories. And then it also goes on -
12 and you're right - that it says we should control access to our areas.
13 That's the 25th of February. And as for what you say about degree 1 and
14 2, just after that I see it was mentioned, that is at the club of
15 deputies. I don't believe it was mentioned at an Assembly session.
16 I'm not saying I never heard it; maybe I did hear it. But I just
17 understood from all of it that we should take control where we had not
18 done so yet. But I -- I mean, I really don't rule out that Variants A and
19 B existed. Right here I didn't understand it that way. I saw what the
20 reasons were. I understood them. And this was mainly a discussion about
21 the reasons and about what needed to be done.
22 Q. And how it was to be accomplished. On page 24 of the English and
23 page 22 -- 2214 of your version, Dr. Karadzic says -- I'll give you a
24 chance to find that. It's at the very top of the B/C/S. And the -- about
25 the top one -- about the bottom third of page 24 in the English.
1 Dr. Karadzic says: "That is why we called you today, to
2 intensify, to introduce the second level, and to intensify the functioning
3 of the government at any cost and on every single millimetre of our
5 A. Yes, that's what's written here indeed.
6 Q. And that's how the intensification of the process of moving
7 forward on every single millimetre of our territory, as Dr. Karadzic put
8 it, was to move forward, by introducing the second level.
9 A. Well, I don't know what was supposed to be raised into -- it says:
10 "to enhance the functioning of authorities in every part of our areas," if
11 that's what you mean. I understood that. And in another passage he said
12 instructions would be given, but instructions were not given here. He
13 just said the functioning of authorities should be enhanced in every part
14 of our areas. I didn't hear about instructions. I heard about this bit.
15 Q. And you also heard about introducing the second level.
16 Dr. Karadzic clearly, I think it's fair to say, was directing himself to
17 assemble people who knew what the second level was when he made four
18 separate references to it. Is it your testimony that you're the only
19 person there who didn't know what the second level meant?
20 A. Not the only person. Everybody whom you had brought here,
21 everybody whom I had talked to, they don't remember this. And believe me
22 when I say I don't remember about it. I don't know what the second degree
23 or second level is. And it's not a preparation. Preparations were being
24 made for a state of war, but this was the 25th of February. I'm not
25 saying I didn't hear this, but I thought it had to do with the functioning
1 of the authorities and I understood that instructions would be given. I
2 assure you that I understand what he is saying, not the second level.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, when you referred to the 25th of
4 February, from what I remember, it was the 14th of February, just to avoid
5 any misunderstanding.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, sorry. It was the 25th of
7 February a moment ago. We are now talking about the 14th.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there were negotiations going on
10 then about the Cutileiro Plan. I don't know what this is. This is after
11 the referendum, or maybe before the referendum was held.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you have several times put it to
13 Mr. Krajisnik that, in your view, reference was made to the 19th of
14 December instructions, the Variant A and B instructions. Mr. Krajisnik
15 has said several times that he didn't know them at the time, and that to
16 the extent he heard these observations, that he never linked them to
17 anything that was familiar to him at that moment. You could go on with
18 that for ages --
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: I apologise if I gave the impression I was about to
22 ask that question again; I was about to move on.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, yes. But I don't know what other references
24 there will be, but if there will be at any moment any reference to it
25 which Mr. Krajisnik would have understood otherwise, he'll certainly tell
1 us. And if Mr. Krajisnik did not make that link, of course the Chamber
2 not on the subjective understanding of what was said by Mr. Krajisnik but
3 on the objective analysis of the evidence we have will see whether any
4 inference can be drawn from these texts. Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the next day was the 7th Session of the Assembly of
7 the Serbian People. That's February 15th. Mr. Stewart brought that
8 session to your attention during the course of your examination-in-chief.
9 And in particular, he directed your attention to remarks by Dr. Kalinic,
10 found at page 54 of the English. And --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, even without a plus one or minus one
12 rule, I cannot find Mr. Kalinic.
13 MR. TIEGER: I believe page 57 of the English, Your Honour --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, I missed -- as a matter of fact, I missed the
15 word "Dr. Kalinic" on the top of page 54. I apologise. Please proceed.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. A lot of numbers were mentioned, Mr. Krajisnik. The last was page
18 57 for your benefit. Do you see Dr. Kalinic's remarks there?
19 A. Yes. Yes, yes, I see that.
20 Q. And the remarks in particular were: "Earlier today" --
21 "Earlier today, in a smaller group, I suggested a medical
22 procedure. You know that our ministers, our Council of Ministers with Mr.
23 Cizmovic and Mr. Simovic, are to tour all our municipalities and establish
24 the true situation during the next seven days, which would help us
25 determine whether we have an infrastructure which may become operational
1 once we proclaim our Serbian Republic or not. We cannot be sovereign if
2 we are not able to extra power over the territory that is ours."
3 A. 58 is the page.
4 Q. And you indicated in response to Mr. Stewart's questions that you
5 don't know what smaller group Dr. Kalinic was referring to and,
6 essentially, as I understood it correctly, knew nothing in particular
7 about this suggestion by Dr. Kalinic. If I'm wrong about that, please
8 correct me. And if you do know something about it, please tell us what it
10 A. I don't know whether he talked to me at all, whether I was there,
11 who -- I don't know who this small group is. I'm not precluding this
12 possibility. I mean, I am not precluding the possibility that I was in
13 that group, but I don't know what group that was.
14 Q. Well, if you could turn to page 59 of the English and page -- I
15 think it will be 62 of your version. That's Dr. Karadzic speaking. And
16 he says at the top of page 59 in the English: "I'm asking our coordinator
17 and the president of the Council of Ministers, Mr. Simovic, to hold
18 briefings with municipal presidents and other participants, or
19 representatives in governments and regional Assemblies. What Mr. Kalinic
20 has said is very important. We should have a questionnaire which could be
21 utilised to check our particular segments of the infrastructure on the
22 ground. Then we shall have our coordinator of the Council of Ministers,
23 Mr. Cizmovic, spend the next week on wheels, first paying visits to the
24 regional centres, in Trebinje, Bijeljina, Doboj, Banja Luka and with us
25 here in Sarajevo, and then going to the smaller towns, in order to
1 establish, or perhaps authorise someone else in each municipality to do
2 that, on the basis of a questionnaire with ten or 15 basic questions, to
3 establish how elements of the authorities really work, for instance the
4 SUP, to see if there is any loyalty out there," et cetera.
5 He goes on to talk about people in the municipalities who are not
6 loyal. "Check out the SDK," et cetera. And then finally concludes: "If
7 we could afford to spend some time compiling a questionnaire which would
8 be used for a check-up and a reminder to those municipalities who have not
9 taken care of all the preparations that they must do so. I suggest that
10 we meet later in Mr. Krajisnik's conference room. That is all from me."
11 Mr. Krajisnik, does that assist you now in recalling what
12 Dr. Karadzic described as "very important," that is the need to have
13 Mr. Cizmovic at that time spend the week going to as many regional centres
14 as possible with a questionnaire designed to assist in determining the
15 state of preparation?
16 A. I don't remember any of this, but I'm connecting this to the
17 telephone conversation that you showed me here, that Cizmovic said there
18 was this questionnaire. But this is all right, as far as I'm concerned,
19 if we're going to promulgate a constitution, whether the government is
20 actually functioning in the areas where we are in power. Mr. Cizmovic was
21 supposed to be there only up to the New Year on the basis of that
22 conversation, but I see now that he went on. It was probably
23 Mr. Karadzic's decision, based on some need for him to go on working.
24 I'd just like to remind you of something else: Very soon the
25 Ministerial Council was abolished and a government was elected soon after
2 Q. I have two final matters I want to bring to your attention in
3 connection with the Variant A and B document, Mr. Krajisnik. First is
4 found at tab 72, and it's a decision on the proclamation of the Serbian
5 Assembly of Ilidza municipality from January 3rd, 1992.
6 MR. TIEGER: That's P529, tab 53, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, as we can see at the top of this document, Mr. Krajisnik, it
8 states, among -- it says: "Pursuant to Article 265, of the SRBiH
9 Constitution and will of the Serbian people from the territory of Ilidza,
10 expressed at the plebiscite held on 9 and 10 November, 1991, and according
11 to the instructions given by the BiH Serbian Democratic Party (Main
12 Board), number: 079 from 19 December, 1991, of Assembly of Serbian People
13 Ilidza at the session held on January 3rd have reached -- 1992, have
14 reached the following decision."
15 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, if we turn to the second page of the document
16 and look to the bottom we can see the persons to whom this decision was
17 submitted. And at the very top of that list we can see that it was
18 submitted to you, the president of the Serbian Assembly of BiH.
19 A. This is the 3rd of January, when I was president of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I don't know whether I got it or not. Maybe it went
21 to the party, but if you remember my response in relation to this document
22 -- well, I can repeat it again now: I did not have any coordination with
23 them because they passed a decision, they founded a Presidency towards the
24 end of 1992 on the basis of a document passed by the Assembly that such
25 bodies were being abolished. And this was December, 1992. They
1 established a Presidency on the basis of the decision whereby Presidencies
2 and commissioners were abolished. I don't know how it could have gone to
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- or rather, the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Maybe it went to the party, or maybe it reached someone; not that it
5 reached me. It shouldn't have been sent to me in the first place.
6 Q. Well, I'm afraid, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm having a great deal of
7 difficulty following your response. I'm not quite sure what the
8 establishment of a Presidency toward the end of 1992, in December of 1992,
9 has with your receipt of a submitted document in January of 1992, nor can
10 I understand what the fact that you occupied both the position of
11 president of the Assembly of the BiH government and the president of the
12 -- sorry, Assembly, and the president of the Assembly of the Serbian
13 People would have any impact on the receipt of a document clearly
14 submitted to the president of the Serbian Assembly of BiH.
15 A. I'll explain it to you now, Mr. Prosecutor. I'm telling you that
16 I did not have any contact with them. Had I had contact with them, he
17 would have said on the basis of the recommendation of the Assembly of the
18 Serb People, I establish such and such. There was this recommendation in
19 December, and I could have said to them: This is the recommendation and
20 establish an Assembly on the basis of that, if you wish. The -- my office
21 was in the office of the president of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
22 although I was president of the Serb Assembly. And I'm -- that was in
23 January. And I did not have any communication with them, and I'm giving
24 you this example that towards the end of the year, on the basis of some
25 document that abolishes Presidencies and commissioners, they are
1 establishing a Presidency of Ilidza. And I would say to them: Well,
2 look, you have this recommendation here. Why are you establishing a body
3 which is not necessary? There is this recommendation. And this
4 recommendation, in terms of establishing an Assembly of the Serb People,
5 was passed only 20 days before that. So had I had contact with them, that
6 is what I would have suggested. And that was the only legal channel, as
7 established by the Assembly, through the recommendation, not this way.
8 Because if the Assembly had this recommendation, they would not have
9 adopted this. They would have said: You have this particular
10 instruction, and that's it, whereas these people were a minority. This is
11 for Variant B. So they were a minority. They did not have a majority in
12 the Assembly.
13 Q. And finally, Mr. Krajisnik, in connection with a number of
14 assertions you made, including any discussion about this document at an
15 Assembly, I'd like you to turn, please, to tab 73, which contain --
16 MR. TIEGER: This will need a number, Your Honour.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1193, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Which contain remarks from the tape-recording of the 33rd Session
21 of the Republika Srpska National Assembly held on the 20th and the 21st of
22 July, 1993. And in the first page of both the English and B/C/S extracts,
23 we can see the remarks of the municipality president of Jajce, which
24 begins by addressing you, Mr. Krajisnik: "Mr. Chairman, gentlemen,
25 deputies, and dear guests," saying: "We already have what Mr. Chairman
1 was talking about."
2 And then he goes on in the second paragraph: "If we go back a
3 little and recall the material that was coming from the Main Board as
4 activities in the field, and there were two options: Variant A -- or a)
5 variant and b) variant. Variant a) is for the municipalities with the
6 majority of Serbs; variant b) for municipalities where they are not a
7 majority, as in Jajce. Then we established the Municipal Assembly
8 according to these instructions, and later on municipal organs of
9 authority. That was all done before the war, actually, on 27 January,
10 1992. We held the constituent session of the Assembly of the Serbian
11 People of Jajce where a decision regarding merging with the Autonomous
12 Region of Krajina was made and a request was sent to the National
13 Assembly, actually, it was then the Assembly of the Serbian People of BiH,
14 to carry out verification and I think the verification was done at the end
15 of February."
16 Then he goes on in the next paragraph, in the second sentence --
17 in the third sentence of that paragraph: "And when we were to establish a
18 Serbian municipality of Jajce according to the instructions, in accordance
19 with the order issued by Mr. Karadzic and your order, I conducted talks
20 with all the committee members in the joint Assembly, who were Serbs, and
21 only one of them agreed to enter the joint, that is Serbian Assembly of
22 Serbian municipality of Jajce from SPJ. The rest of them refused. Since
23 we had no one to expand it with, the chairman of the local boards who were
24 admitted by virtue of their offices, I asked Mr. Karadzic and you at a
25 counselling in Sarajevo, what was I to do in that case. And then we
1 agreed that the local boards' chairmen enter by virtue of their positions,
2 as it had been arranged, and I was also asked about the number of
3 committee members we planned to have in the Assembly."
4 Mr. Krajisnik, these remarks by the municipality president of
5 Jajce reflect that he acted on the order issued by Dr. Karadzic and you
6 and that he subsequently held a counselling with Dr. Karadzic and you
7 about implementing those instructions.
8 A. He saw us - I remember that well - but I assure you that then and
9 today I did not understand this. I would have said to him: You have the
10 recommendation. There was no need for him to rely on any instruction to
11 establish this, especially because he's a minority. And he said here that
12 he did not have enough councilmen. This really comes as a surprise to me,
13 that I would override an Assembly decision and tell someone: Okay, act on
14 some instruction that I don't know about. He probably consulted with us
15 in terms of how they would establish this. The other things he did, when
16 he joined the autonomous region, whatever, I don't know. But I know this
17 president of the municipality came to see us and I know that we talked to
18 him. This was later, when the Serb army liberated Jajce, let me use that
19 vocabulary. But I certainly would have said to him: You have the
20 recommendation. You can establish this. So it was 1993. It wasn't that
21 he talked to me in 1991 or 1992. I just remember 1993 at some point. Oh,
22 I'm so sorry. I don't even know what time it was, but I know that it was
23 when Jajce was liberated that he talked about us how to establish the
24 Assembly. And before that he had annexed whatever, as I see here, with
25 the best of intentions -- I'm so sorry that I have to be giving you all of
1 these no answers. But there was no need for me to say rely on
2 instructions, when there is this recommendation, when there were these
3 legal channels that were there. He talked to me and he talked to him --
4 well, I believe he did. Maybe he did. But I always had a state document.
5 Why would I need a document that belonged to I don't know who? I never
6 relied on these party documents but only on Assembly decisions.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm looking at the time. I think that's
8 probably when the Court wanted to break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But perhaps one additional question,
10 Mr. Krajisnik. Do you remember - because I do understand your testimony
11 to be the following - what Mr. -- what the Jajce municipality president
12 says during this session in July, 1993, does not reflect your perception
13 of a meeting you had with him. Why didn't you not at that moment
14 intervene and say: Well, you're referring to a meeting and to
15 instructions, but you must have misunderstood me, you must have
16 misinterpreted what happened because I was not aware that such a thing
17 happens -- happened, what you're now telling us about.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, had I known that I
19 would come to The Hague Tribunal, I would have clarified each and every
20 particular matter. The main point was that Jajce was liberated and now
21 he's saying that he's going to establish an Assembly. And two years later
22 he is saying something that doesn't mean a thing to me any longer and I am
23 not going to look at that. Why did I not react to that? Do you know what
24 kind of things people said when they were taking part of the discussion?
25 Why would I deal with something that was said two years earlier on?
1 Before that, Jajce was in the Muslim Croat Federation, and now there was
2 this Assembly and he said that he had founded this Serb Assembly that had
3 stopped functioning at the moment when the war broke out because Jajce was
4 part of the federation throughout the war -- well, throughout the war; all
5 the way to 1993. But this is a new situation and he wants to establish an
6 Assembly. He says: Here I come, a newly liberated territory. Of course
7 I would have reacted if I knew that I would be held accountable and that
8 I'd have to answer for each and every minute detail.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
10 I'm just looking at the clock. If we would continue until -- at a
11 quarter past 12.00, then we could proceed without any further break, then
12 one and a half hour would remain. That's my suggestion. Yes. We'll
13 adjourn until quarter past 12.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.42 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, before we continue, you provided to
17 the Chamber extracts from the 10th of October session to which you
18 referred earlier in your testimony in which you would draw our attention
19 to the words spoken which may have caused you to say what you said at a
20 later stage during that same meeting. We decided that we would give it to
21 the parties because it's part of an explanation. They can look at it -
22 there's no translation yet - with their language assistants and then at
23 whether it's -- is in the interest either of the Defence or the
24 Prosecution to -- to submit this document and to ask for admission into
25 evidence. The Chamber at this moment has not any strong feelings on
1 whether or not to call this. It's not in the core of the case. It seems
2 to explain -- that's at least what you said, it explains why you said
3 certain things. And as you may have noticed this morning, the Chamber --
4 I couldn't say that the Chamber is not interested in the whys, but the
5 Chamber is primarily interested in the whats rather than the whys, at
6 least on these kind of matters which are not central in this case.
7 So therefore, we leave it to the parties. If it would assist your
8 Defence, Mr. Josse will certainly find a moment to ask for admission.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received this from the OTP, if we
11 are talking about this morning's piece of evidence, the statement of
12 Mr. Filipovic. I just identified the session at which it was made, and I
13 wanted it -- that to be tendered together with the statement of
14 Mr. Karadzic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll see whether the parties think it's of
16 such importance that it should be tendered if it's not already in
18 Then, Mr. Josse, did I understand well that you wanted to raise --
19 MR. JOSSE: Yes, there is something I want to raise. Whilst I do
20 that, Mr. Krajisnik handed to the Chamber yesterday an extract of a
21 statement of Dr. Karadzic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. JOSSE: In fact, it was a speech that he had given at an
24 Assembly session, and in fact there is a -- it's already an exhibit in
25 this case.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Which contains that speech or that portion of the
3 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that then, therefore, is to say no
5 statement was given -- at least, Mr. Krajisnik did not -- there was no
6 statement of Mr. Krajisnik --
7 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. JOSSE: -- there is a statement in existence which purportedly
10 comes from Dr. Karadzic which is in the possession of the Defence. That
11 was not -- I think that is on the CD, in fact. Yesterday Mr. Krajisnik
12 handed up a separate document; that, we think, is P69A.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check that and then there's -- at least then
14 there's no need to have it translated again because it's translated
15 already. This clarifies the issue. Yes?
16 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'd like to take a point now. I'd be
17 brief about it, and it may be that the Chamber would wish to return to it
18 on another occasion. But as briefly as I can, I wish to object to what
19 has just happened in relation to P1193, the very last document that was
20 put to Mr. Krajisnik. To state the obvious, Variants A and B are an
21 important point in this case. It has been litigated at length by both
22 sides. Mr. Krajisnik's case in relation to that particular document has
23 been clear near enough from the outset of this case. Certainly by the
24 time Mr. Deronjic was cross-examined, it was apparent what Mr. Krajisnik
25 was saying as to his state of knowledge of the Variants A and B document.
1 The Defence question why the Prosecution didn't rely on P1193 as
2 part of their case. The Defence submit that there is an inference the
3 Chamber can draw that the Prosecution have deliberately kept this
4 particular piece of evidence up their sleeve, so to speak, in order to
5 ambush the accused in the course of his evidence. And the
6 cross-examination that the Chamber has just heard in relation to that
7 particular document, we submit, amounts in effect to ambush and is unfair
8 and is prejudicial to the accused.
9 I appreciate that the Prosecution will almost certainly be able to
10 say - and I concede this readily - that that document will have been
11 disclosed. The Chamber is aware of the disclosure process. Many, many
12 documents have been disclosed. The Chamber is well aware that the Defence
13 have not had an opportunity to sort through those documents and assess
14 them in a proper way. But even if that's right, it's not really in issue
15 of disclosure. The question I pose rhetorically is why didn't the
16 Prosecution rely upon that as part of their case, therefore enabling the
17 Defence to answer it properly both in the examination-in-chief of
18 Mr. Krajisnik and also perhaps, I might add, making some inquiries of the
19 author of the statement, the municipal president of Jajce, whose name we
20 don't even know because it's not stated within the Assembly session.
21 Now, as I say, if Your Honour wishes to have this legal argument,
22 so to speak, at some later stage of the case, I have no objection to that.
23 If the Chamber would rather the Defence proceeded by way of motion, we're
24 quite willing to draft and file a motion in relation to this particular
25 matter. I raise it now, one, to preserve my client's position; and two,
1 of course, because I suspect this is going to arise again during the
2 course of the next fortnight.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is inclined to ask for written
5 submissions on the matter, not necessarily ten pages, but brief written
6 submissions; at the same time, it might assist - and might assist you as
7 well, Mr. Josse - if the Prosecution would like to spend just as little
8 time as you did now in a first response -- well, let's say but at the end
9 of this session or perhaps tomorrow morning the first thing to do. That
10 might give further guidance for you as to what you are -- what you could
11 expect as a response at a later stage. And that could -- might be a good
12 way of keeping the debate within the limits of the necessary.
13 MR. JOSSE: That would be very helpful, and I'd encourage, too,
14 Your Honour, the Prosecution to do that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Tieger, it's -- I take it that it comes as a surprise at this
17 moment for you, but I'm not urging you to give that very brief response
18 right away. You've seen that Mr. Josse set out the issue in just two or
19 three minutes. If you could set out what will be the basics of your
20 response also in two or three minutes, then on the basis of that we could
21 invite the parties for further written submissions.
22 MR. TIEGER: Certainly, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that then you will find a suitable moment,
24 today or tomorrow, when to address this.
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, of course.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, during the course of the morning's session I had
4 asked you about the -- Dr. Kalinic's remarks and Dr. Karadzic's remarks
5 about Mr. Cizmovic's proposed tour on wheels, remarks made at the Assembly
6 session of February 15th, and I believe I also asked you if you knew to
7 whom Mr. Cizmovic reported. And in connection with those issues, if we
8 could turn next to tab 71. The English at page 30, and the B/C/S at page
9 SA025603 at the bottom, Mr. Krajisnik, and then continuing on to the next
11 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honours, the --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have different numbering. 040 and
13 then ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have no SA0 numbers at the bottom of
15 that page.
16 MR. TIEGER: Maybe -- well, first of all, let me make sure I have
17 enumerated the correct tab. I think we're all looking at tab 71, I
18 believe I said, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Oh --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it's 71.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I made a mistake. I apologise.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Tab 71 contains the transcript from the session of the Deputies
24 Club held on 28 February, 1992, which would be approximately two weeks
25 after the February 15th session we had discussed earlier. These reflect
1 the remarks of Mr. Cizmovic on that date, who says at -- who said at the
2 portion I indicated earlier: "In the end I would like to say that the
3 work with the members of the SDS in Bosnian Krajina" --
4 A. You really have to direct me. I cannot follow unless you tell me
5 -- oh, yes, is that at the bottom?
6 Q. Yes, that's what I indicated, I guess before you were able to
7 actually find the page. At the page of 5603 and then continuing on to
9 A. Yes, I found it.
10 Q. And Mr. Cizmovic states: "In the end I would like to say that the
11 work with the members of the SDS in Bosnian Krajina has not been adequate.
12 The work should be intensified, from the deputies to the SDS Main Board
13 here in Sarajevo. And personnel changes are necessary if we want to avoid
14 greater evil. That's what I stated in a study I submitted to the
15 president of the Assembly and the president of the party: My view of
16 Bosnian Krajina and the way to solve it."
17 Now, first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, I take it there's no question
18 that Mr. Cizmovic here is referring to you as the -- when he mentions the
19 president of the Assembly. He means the president of the Assembly of the
20 Serbian People. Correct?
21 A. Yes, he means the president of the Assembly.
22 Q. And by the president of the party he means, of course,
23 Dr. Karadzic.
24 A. Yes, possibly -- probably. There is no other president of the
1 Q. And this appears to be conclusions resulting from the tour on
2 wheels that Mr. Cizmovic was to take, as indicated by Dr. Karadzic on
3 February 15th, 1992, and it appears that he submitted a report about
4 precisely that tour to you and Dr. Karadzic.
5 A. Really all I see here is that he presented a sort of study about
6 the Bosnian Krajina, and it was probably for the purposes of the president
7 of the party, and maybe he copied it to the president of the Assembly, but
8 it concerns Bosnian Krajina. And if you look at the beginning, it speaks
9 about the SDS and its senior personnel and it goes on to speak about the
10 ultimatum imposed at the Assembly. I don't see that this is a report
11 about some tour; it's just about Bosnian Krajina.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, let's -- let's first of all stick to the
14 Mr. Krajisnik, did you receive such a report or such a study from
15 Mr. Cizmovic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember -- like, I never
17 received it. That's what I think. I don't know whether it ever came in.
18 I never read it. Excuse me: I did receive a study from some institute, a
19 vision of Bosnian Krajina, but not from Mr. Cizmovic. The institute
20 concerned is the economical institute, and the study is about what Bosnian
21 Krajina should look like as a region. If that is the study in question,
22 then yes, possibly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't look as if Mr. Cizmovic was dealing with
24 these kind of matters. If that report would be available and if it's not
25 in evidence yet, then of course we would have a look at it and see how, on
1 the basis of the date, on the basis of the subject matter, we could see
2 whether this could possibly be the same document as referred to by
3 Mr. Cizmovic.
4 So, you don't remember that you have received it. Do you have any
5 other knowledge? Because if not, then we have to analyse the material we
6 have in front of us if you can't add anything to it. I mean, it's of no
7 use to speculate further on what it could have been, et cetera, apart from
8 such concrete information as could have been this report. Then we'll look
9 at it and otherwise we'll have to deal on the basis of what is in evidence
10 and that is, in this case, the -- for example, among other matters, these
11 minutes in which someone says that he has sent it.
12 Please proceed.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can explain right
14 away. I have a newspaper article from the time when the Autonomous Region
15 of Krajina was formed. A feasibility study about Bosnian Krajina was made
16 by this institute, and I remember that I had that kind of paper in my
17 possession. I don't have any other paper. I believe that I can find that
18 newspaper article where you can read about it, but I don't have the study
19 itself with me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At first sight, what you describe as what you
21 have received seems not to have the same subject as what this study is
22 supposed to be. But if you want to present it, we'll have a look at it.
23 If it's just a newspaper article, then of course the first thing we are
24 going to do is look at dates and to look at subjects.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger, but --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I don't know the dates either.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to avoid all kind of speculation on what
3 might have been the case. If Mr. Krajisnik doesn't know about it, if he
4 has no memory of it, then again we'll have to do it on the basis of the
5 remainder of the evidence.
6 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
7 MR. TIEGER: If I may just clarify, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, is it your testimony that you did not receive a
9 report from Mr. Cizmovic about the inadequacy of the work of the members
10 of the SDS in Bosnian Krajina and the need for personnel changes, or is it
11 your testimony that you don't remember whether or not you received such a
13 A. I don't remember receiving it, but I was aware of those problems;
14 however, I don't remember receiving it. Maybe they copied it to me
15 because it was about the authorities, but Cizmovic did not report to me.
16 Q. Well, the words -- the word used by Mr. Cizmovic is "submitted,"
17 "I submitted to the president of the Assembly and the president of the
18 party." So the question is whether or not you remember receiving a report
19 submitted by Mr. Cizmovic to you and to Dr. Karadzic concerning the
20 inadequacy of the work of the members of the SDS in Bosnian Krajina.
21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I received one study concerning the status of the
22 Bosnian Krajina. I remember that. I don't know from whom and from -- and
23 when. But it was made by the economics institute in Banja Luka. Whether
24 that was the study that Cizmovic submitted to Karadzic, me, and maybe
25 somebody else, I don't know --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to stop you here. That's
2 what you explained before, that it might be another document, and you said
3 that you received that. Now the question is specifically on the report of
4 Mr. Cizmovic. I think your testimony was: If I have received it, it must
5 have been that someone copied it to me. I did not -- it was not directly
6 submitted to me by Mr. Cizmovic, but I do not know. I have no
7 recollection that I saw that, but if I have seen it, then it must have
8 been that someone copied it to me. So that contradicts more or less what
9 was said here that it was submitted to you and not that you received a
10 copy from someone else to whom it was addressed. If this is wrong --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I didn't say
12 "copy." I said if he submitted some sort of material to Mr. Karadzic, he
13 gave the second copy, like, to be handed to Krajisnik. It's not that
14 somebody copied it to -- from Karadzic and gave it to me. He sort of
15 addressed it to both of us.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The Serbian word for -- is
18 different. It doesn't sound like "copy," but that's what it means.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then it's now clear that although you have no
20 recollection that you did receive it, that you do not exclude for the
21 possibility that where it was addressed to Mr. Karadzic, that you were the
22 second one to receive a copy of -- at least, the second one to receive one
23 -- this document as well, and it may even have been addressed to you.
24 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you testified at length, I think it's fair to say,
3 during the course of your examination-in-chief about the -- what you
4 called the Cutileiro agreement and explained its role in or responsibility
5 for or connection to a number of different events and actions. And I'd
6 like to discuss that -- some aspects of that with you now, if I may. And
7 perhaps it's useful for you to have the Sarajevo -- the March 18th, 1992,
8 document in front of you as we do. And that can be found, I believe, at
9 tab 80, which is -- I think it's D5.
10 Now, tab 80 contains D5, "Statement of principles for new
11 constitutional arrangements for Bosnia-Herzegovina." That's the March
12 18th document we've talked about extensively during the course of your --
13 well, that you've talked about extensively during the course of your
14 examination-in-chief. Is that right, Mr. Krajisnik?
15 A. I have D2 here and D4. I don't know where D5 is. Constituent
16 Units, D; is that it?
17 Q. Well, in the bundle that I have that I think was copied for
18 everyone, tab 80 is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you look at --
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Krajisnik, I understand the confusion. Thank you.
22 Mr. Krajisnik, I was only referring to the exhibit number because that was
23 the exhibit produced. I wasn't asking you to turn to a particular portion
24 of the document yet.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, the first issue I wanted to clarify is that this document is
2 -- it is, in fact, something of a misnomer to speak of the Cutileiro
3 agreement, because what emerged from the discussions that concluded on the
4 late evening of March 17th or maybe the early morning hours of March 18th
5 was this document, which was, as it says on the third page of the
6 document, the basis of further negotiations.
7 A. Yes, but look at what it says underneath: "Agreement reached by
8 the leaders of the parties," the SDA and so on. That's why it was called
9 the "Cutileiro agreement." I agree that it is a basis for future
10 negotiations, but it does say down here that agreement was reached. That
11 is why it was called the Cutileiro agreement. Yes.
12 Q. I understand that. I just -- and how it came to be known in that
13 particular way. I just wanted to clarify because it seemed that there may
14 -- well, I just wanted to clarify that the agreement was that this paper
15 would serve as the basis for further discussions and further negotiations,
16 that there was no agreement to do anything to finalise the issue with
17 respect to Bosnia and Herzegovina; that there was, instead, an agreement
18 about the starting point for the rest of the negotiations, whether or not
19 they would ever come to a final resolution of the dispute.
20 A. Let me be quite precise: This is agreement on the foundations on
21 the basis of which we were supposed to continue - how should I put this? -
22 having all of this worked out in detail and reaching a final solution.
23 Q. And one of the examples of the fact that it reflected merely the
24 starting point for further discussions that would move wherever they might
25 move rather than some form of final agreement was that there were aspects
1 of it to which you and Dr. Karadzic and the other Bosnian Serb
2 negotiators, as well as the Assembly members, did not agree?
3 A. There were some elements for which we sought improvements, that is
4 to say that the solution was not quite satisfactory, but I agree. Yes,
5 there was an element that we agreed on; that's quite clear.
6 Q. One of those elements, for example, was the inclusion in the
7 agreement of -- in the statement of principles that there would be a
8 central bank that -- correct? That was a -- that was an issue to which
9 the Bosnian Serbs were opposed and did not agree.
10 A. Yes, yes. There were different views on the central bank; whether
11 there should be a single currency or not. But that was envisaged here,
12 but we had some reservations with regard to that and so did the Croats.
13 Q. Okay. Well -- "reservations" might be seen as a mild term.
14 Central -- you were opposed to a central bank.
15 A. There were many questions here that were discussed at these
16 meetings, that is. And what was discussed at the sessions does not imply
17 our opposition. It simply meant that we were seeking improvements. I can
18 tell you how we envisaged the central bank. I can tell you all about it.
19 Just like it is in America, you see. To -- the central bank should have
20 the right of primary issue, for instance. So it's not the problem of the
21 central bank itself. There should be several banks within it that would
22 have the right of issue, you see.
23 Q. The problem with a central bank - and I'm not particularly worried
24 about the nuances of monetary policy - but the problem with the central
25 bank is that means there is one state and units within that state rather
1 than three individual, sovereign states.
2 A. Oh, I'm so sorry, but I did not quite follow what you were saying.
3 Could you just repeat what you said. With the best of intentions, I
4 simply could not manage to follow. Perhaps you put it very well. Perhaps
5 the answer isn't right -- or rather, the question is very good, I'm sure,
6 but could you just repeat it, please.
7 Q. The fundamental problem with the central bank is that it would
8 mean that the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be a single state
9 comprised of three units over which it had control through the monetary
10 policy, rather than a situation in which there were three independent,
11 sovereign units which had control of the important aspects of authority
12 that effectively would make them sovereign. That's the problem with the
13 central bank in a nutshell, isn't it, that concerned the Bosnian Serbs?
14 A. I'm an economist. I can tell you exactly the way it was, if
15 you're interested. We wanted to have control over monetary policy, over a
16 joint monetary policy that would be pursued together so that no one would
17 steal from us. That was the problem concerning the central bank. There
18 had to be a currency, no doubt about that, and there was no dispute
19 regarding the existence of a central bank; however, the part that we have,
20 we wanted within our slice of the pie, so to speak, to be able to issue
21 money. And that's exactly what we were looking at, the dollar, that was
22 our example when we were discussing this. It wasn't a problem of whether
23 a central bank would exist, but what kind of control would exist in that
24 central bank; one, two, or three, or altogether, what kind of control
25 would be exercised over monetary policy. And you are right, it is
1 monetary authority, as such, that was a problem, so that no one would
2 steal from anyone. That is quite a big thing.
3 Q. You recall earlier in your examination when you were read out - I
4 don't recall specifically whether Mr. Stewart did it, but I know it
5 happened during the course of your examination - your remarks from the
6 February 28th Deputies Club when you said, in effect: We know what they
7 want. They want the currency, they want a sovereign BiH, they want the
8 army, but effectively they won't get it. Do you recall those remarks or
9 is it necessary for me to pull out the --
10 A. That's exactly what I said, exactly. I know exactly why I said
11 it, too. They wanted Yugoslavia; they didn't want to accept these
12 principles, but then I wanted them to accept these principles so we could
13 move on. That's exactly what I said.
14 Q. And those are the attributes of a sovereign, independent state;
15 the army, the currency.
16 A. Bosnia-Herzegovina was supposed to have five or six functions only
17 as a complex state. It was supposed to be either a confederacy or a union
18 or whatever, but it was to be an internationally recognised subject. It
19 was not an ordinary, unitary state. The rest belonged to the constituent
20 units; that is the essence of the whole problem. And we wanted the
21 constituent units to have as much authority as possible and the central
22 authorities as little authority as possible; that's the point.
23 Q. And you and Dr. Karadzic at the session of the Bosnian Serb
24 Assembly that was held on the same date that appears on the statement of
25 principles, March 18th, took pains to assure the deputies that the
1 document had not been signed, was merely a foundation for further
2 negotiations, and did not reflect the fulfilment of the objectives of the
3 Bosnian Serbs.
4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, that was the policy. On the 11th of March, people
5 refused that plan. So we had to try to represent what was agreed upon as
6 something that was not a unitary Bosnia, that it was, rather, this
7 generally accepted Cutileiro Plan. I know that and that can be seen from
8 here, and it's a different thing that we wanted to prepare them, because
9 they were afraid that this was a unitary Bosnia. They knew what power
11 Q. So it's fair to say that all of the deputies understood from you
12 and Dr. Karadzic that the agreement had not been signed. That's correct,
13 that the statement of principles had not been signed; there had been no
14 agreement reached.
15 A. No. The map was the problem, only the map, the one that's
16 attached. On the basis of the map, they were objecting to everything.
17 The map - the Cutileiro map - had certain things involved -- and then we
18 were explaining that we would approve it and this exchange with the
19 Croats, and so on and so forth. There were different meetings in relation
20 to that. The Cutileiro Plan was absolutely accepted as a basis by all the
21 deputies from the Serb side.
22 Q. Well, I didn't say, Mr. Krajisnik, it was not accepted as a basis
23 for moving on. I asked you whether or not all the deputies understood
24 from you and Dr. Karadzic that the statement of principles did not satisfy
25 the objectives of the Bosnian Serbs and that it had not been signed for
1 that reason. That nothing had been signed, nothing was agreed in that
2 way, and that there would be further negotiations. That's all. A.
3 That's certainly what was said, as forcefully as possible; this is the
4 basis, and then we're going to work on that. The map was the problem.
5 Everybody thought it should be different, but basically the principles
6 were unequivocally agreed upon. So you're right, that was a basis for
7 further negotiations, yes. True, it was not signed, but it was agreed
8 upon. People very often confused these things. They say "signed." No,
9 the Cutileiro Plan was not signed; it was agreed upon. And Mr. Cutileiro
10 agreed to it, too.
11 Q. Well, let's look, in that case, at just a couple of portions of
12 that 11th Assembly Session held on March 18th. And let me look first with
13 you at pages 33 through 34 of the English. I'll get to the B/C/S in just
14 a moment, Mr. Krajisnik. And that would be page 46 of the B/C/S, the
15 remarks of Mr. Zekic.
16 A. 56, is that right?
17 Q. 46.
18 A. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. If you look quickly at his remarks, you'll see that he's
20 expressing unhappiness with the state of affairs. He begins by talking
21 about the conclusion before, that: "... we should not accept anything
22 less than the confederate option which was reached the last session and
23 was not complied with, and that minimum is where I draw the line." That's
24 in the second paragraph of his remarks.
25 We -- the fourth paragraph: "We claim all the time that we will
1 take action and do something." And then he continues to express his
2 dissatisfaction and says: "All negotiations will continue, and
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina will exist as an internationally recognised entity that
4 will keep postponing to deal with internal arrangements for a decade. The
5 arrangement will never happen, and with their birth rate they will
6 gradually stifle our territories too ..."
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if you think that the interpreters can
8 follow you --
9 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.
10 Q. "... and we shall find ourselves in a difficult situation.
11 "I do not think that anything can be accomplished without a
12 clearly defined Serbian state, a separate state that can sign treaties on
13 confederation with anybody. We cannot accept anything less and I can
14 cannot accept anything less. I shall never sign anything else, and I
15 shall distance myself from all this."
16 And then you speak, Mr. Krajisnik saying: "What can I say after
17 hearing Zekic. As if we had not discussed anything, as if he had just
18 now entered the room!
19 "Did we not say that nothing was agreed as yet, that this was
20 working material. Did we not say that one basic principle was
21 established, but this principle was not included in the material in its
22 final form: That Bosnia and Herzegovina was divided into three parts.
23 What they are going to be called, remains to be discussed next."
24 And then you continue in the next long paragraph: "We have stated
25 that the three parts should be states. They objected to calling them
1 states at this point, but we insisted that they should be called states.
2 Our work is not yet finished, gentlemen. This is just one phase. If we
3 cannot achieve our goal and carry out the mandate we received from this
4 Assembly, then we will do whatever is necessary to protect our interests.
5 No one has the right to agree to anything without the consent of this
7 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, that would indicate that the disagreement with
8 the statement of principles went to issues beyond the maps, went to some
9 -- to one of the fundamental, if not the fundamental, aspect of the
10 statement of principles. Isn't that what Mr. Zekic is talking about and
11 isn't that what you're reassuring him will be addressed at a later stage?
12 And if it can't be addressed satisfactory, then the Bosnian Serbs will do
13 whatever is necessary.
14 A. This shows that Mr. Zekic is an exception. I'm saying that it's
15 as if he just walked in through the door. My first sentence is that. So
16 this is not the view of the Assembly; this is the view of Mr. Zekic.
17 There were different proposals. You're right. At this session there was
18 one basic problem: People wanted to remain in Yugoslavia and they kept
19 going back to that. Here we were supposed to adopt Bosnia as a state with
20 three constituent units, and we adopted that. Truth to tell, it was hard
21 and painstaking. You see that Zekic said: I'm never going to sign this,
22 as if he were to sign it. But he's a deputy, he wants to stay in
23 Yugoslavia, he doesn't want to be a minority, and so on. It's very
24 dangerous if one expounds this view that we did not accept these
25 principles. We adopted these principles at -- one more thing, I'm sorry,
1 Mr. Prosecutor. Even apart from these principles, we had agreed on a
2 great many things but they could not fit into the principles. A lot was
3 already clear as to what would be done in the future. Our course had been
4 charted at this meeting with Mr. Cutileiro. And that is why he said that
5 there was a statement -- rather, that when we reach agreement we have a
6 referendum, all three parties adopt it, and then we adopt a constitution.
7 There is a statement that says that. I can give you -- I can bring it
8 here, a copy of the newspapers stating what he said. It's best to hear
9 about it from him directly.
10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, are you suggesting that you were prepared to accept
11 statement of principles as a final document that made -- that put the
12 Bosnian Serbs in a unit within an independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. Yes, we were, Mr. Prosecutor, but you will find hundreds of
14 statements after that where we said "our state," and so on and so forth.
15 That is politics, how all of this can get through so that we move on,
16 because people kept saying we want to have our own state, we don't want to
17 leave Yugoslavia. They kept repeating that five years afterwards. But we
18 accepted the agreement: We're giving up on Yugoslavia, but we do want
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is incontrovertible. It's different when you
20 have these belligerent statements that you're trying to find ways and
21 means of explaining this. Look at this here. You see it says state. We
22 mentioned that Bavaria is a state, that Texas is a state and so on. And
23 we said, well, don't call it a state, it's not the right time for that.
24 Call it whatever you want. But people like calling it a state although
25 it's a constituent unit, but within Bosnia-Herzegovina. Not as a state
1 but as a composite state community. That was the agreement reached.
2 Q. When you say I'll find hundreds of statements, am I also going to
3 find many statements in which you and Dr. Karadzic insist that you will
4 never accept a situation where the Bosnian Serbs are within a unitary or
5 independent Bosnia and never accept a situation in which -- where the
6 Bosnian Serbs cannot be in a joint state with Serbia and other Serbs?
7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you will find several statements where we said
8 that we would never be in a unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is
9 correct. Later on, the translation was poor. Very often it was stated
10 that we would not be separated from Serbia, and this was a reference to
11 special ties. Now it's different how this is interpreted at the session
12 itself, but people did not want to have a border on the Drina and not to
13 have passports. And that is what we achieved through special ties,
14 between Serbia and Republika Srpska, and Croatia and everybody else. And
15 I showed you that, what Mr. Izetbegovic said. He agreed. Everybody
16 agreed that we had the right to special ties in exchange for a state.
17 With Yugoslavia, that is.
18 Q. Well, maybe I can short-circuit some of this by seeking your
19 position on it. You stated: "Very often it was stated that we would not
20 be separated from Serbia, and this was a reference to special ties."
21 Is it necessary for me to collect and show you statements by you
22 and Dr. Karadzic beginning in 1991 and extending on through 1992, 1993,
23 1994, assuring the representatives of the Bosnian Serb people that you
24 would never accept a situation that -- in which Republika Srpska or the
25 Bosnian Serb people were not living in a sovereign state of Bosnian Serbs
1 and in which you could not form a united state - whether it was an
2 alliance of states or a single state - with Serbia?
3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I'll give you all the plans that I took part in,
4 and that is what counts. In every plan we accepted Bosnia as a state.
5 And now you're talking about statements. Yes, you're right. There's
6 hundreds of statements for political purposes when the Muslims were
7 rejecting the plan, and then we opted for negotiations. And we were
8 trying to overcome what somebody had undermined for us. We worked on this
9 for three months and then it went down the drain. And then another one
10 for years and months, and it went down the drain. We accepted all of them
11 except for the Vance-Owen Plan. It is true that this was a discussion.
12 Yes, that is what I said in the discussion, too, but that was talk. But
13 tell me, was there a single plan where we did not accept Bosnia as a state
14 except for the Vance Plan, which was abolishing Republika Srpska? But we
15 accepted all of this.
16 Also, at rallies I spoke. Yes, that's correct, in order to win an
17 election and so on and so forth. But please, our position was in the plan
18 and in the plan we said that Bosnia is a state. And we reached agreement
19 on that with Mr. Cutileiro straight away, and we kept referring to the
20 Cutileiro principles. There's not a single plan where we did not refer to
21 those principles.
22 Q. So you're suggesting to the Court, Mr. Krajisnik, that in order to
23 determine your state of mind, it should focus only on the results of the
24 negotiations in which you participated, rather than the -- than the many,
25 many statements about those issues that exist to the contrary? Is that
2 A. Correct, correct. Because statements were made for political
3 purposes just in order to continue the negotiations. And each of my
4 statements was made in times of crisis when somebody disrupted the
5 negotiations, not because we wouldn't accept Bosnia as a state.
6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, just like you said on March 18th, 1992, to the
7 representatives of the Assembly about the statement of principles that had
8 been reached in the Cutileiro negotiations, your involvement in the
9 negotiations thereafter represented attempts to reach a long-term
10 objective step by step, taking what you could at any given point and
11 moving forward from there. That's the reality of it, isn't it,
12 Mr. Krajisnik?
13 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in order for something to succeed at a given
14 Assembly session, you tell people: Come on, accept this, but we are
15 moving on to achieve our goals. You have to do that if you want to sell
16 something. If you don't want to sell anything, then you say: Okay, this
17 is final and we all go home, and then we end up guilty because we didn't
18 accept the Cutileiro Plan. No. We said we accept the principles, we give
19 up on the idea of Yugoslavia, and we move on. That's the road we took all
20 the time, throughout those years. It's only when somebody abandoned these
21 principles that we rebelled and opposed it.
22 Q. And you repeatedly told the Bosnian Serb people what those goals
23 were and reminded the deputies that the compromise positions that were
24 then available in negotiations were merely steps on the way to that
25 ultimate goal?
1 A. Our ultimate goal was what we could achieve at negotiations. And
2 when the possibility emerged, when somebody offered us this declaration to
3 sign to announce the referendum and to leave, Izetbegovic signed it and I
4 signed it, too, because every Serb wanted to unite with Serbia, but that
5 was not realistic. And I said: Our goal is what is feasible at
6 negotiations. Our goal could not be something that is unacceptable to the
7 other side. That's why I put this in general terms.
8 Q. We will likely be returning to this but not -- because of the time
9 I want to move on to one other very closely related subject that you
10 mentioned. You also indicated, of course, that the problem with the
11 Cutileiro agreement or negotiations or whatever we'll call it on March
12 18th was the maps. And we spent a great deal of time in your
13 examination-in-chief talking about maps, as the Court and you will, no
14 doubt, recall. First of all, if I could turn your attention to ...
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik. I'm trying to
17 retrieve the document that Mr. Krajisnik produced at the conclusion of the
19 Your Honour, I believe this document -- this is a -- reflects a
20 portion of D247.
21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if you look at the last page of --
22 MR. TIEGER: Well, perhaps it's best to --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I understood, it was just the maps
24 that were brought to our attention, the other parts of the document being
25 cut off as being irrelevant, but I now take it that when it should receive
1 a new number because this is the text now becoming part of the evidence as
2 well, I take it.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar -- yes?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, these maps are even
6 better than the ones I provided. They are much more legible.
7 MR. TIEGER: That's partly why we did that, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I do see that you translated portions of
9 the text as well.
10 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the new number would be -- would be P --
12 THE REGISTRAR: 1194, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P1194, yes.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, looking at P1194, although I think you
16 essentially answered this question in your comments a moment ago, the --
17 it contains the -- the full article of -- that was represented by the
18 partial portion of that newspaper article that you provided in D247.
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And as you --
21 A. Yes, that's the whole page. I believe that's one whole page of
22 the Politika newspaper.
23 Q. Okay. And as you indicated, we see there the three maps
24 representing the proposals of the three parties and -- which I understand
25 to be the Serb map on top, the Muslim map in the middle, and the Croat at
1 the bottom?
2 A. Yes, you're right.
3 Q. Now, if we could turn to tab 83 --
4 MR. JOSSE: Could I just check one matter very quickly, Your
5 Honour. We have sent the maps in P1194 themselves to the CLSS for
6 translation. Does the Court still require the maps themselves to be
7 translated, as opposed to the text? I'm not altogether clear.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I see that this new document contains the -- all the
9 written text, including -- all the written text attached to the maps. I
10 suggest that a note will be made on D -- what is it?
11 MR. JOSSE: 247, I think.
12 JUDGE ORIE: 247, that a note will be made, which I will initial,
13 on D247 that the translation is found at P1193.
14 MR. JOSSE: We'll inform CLSS not to proceed with that
15 translation. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Now we are at D7B, the map under tab 83.
17 MR. TIEGER:
18 Q. Now, looking at D7B, the map behind tab 83, Mr. Krajisnik, that
19 appears to be a fourth map. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, yes, that's Cutileiro's map. So none of those that you gave
21 me. This is Cutileiro's map.
22 Q. And when you say "Cutileiro's map," what do you mean by that; that
23 Mr. Cutileiro submitted this map as a fourth person in the negotiations or
24 a fourth party in the negotiations?
25 A. No, no. When we proposed those three maps, then Mr. Darwin tabled
1 his map as a sort of compromise. So that's that last map attached to the
3 Q. You're saying this map, D7B behind tab 83, is a map that was
4 attached to the principles and submitted by Mr. Darwin?
5 A. Yes. Mr. Darwin, who was an associate of Mr. Cutileiro, and that
6 was attached to the principles at our Assembly session.
7 Q. I'm sorry, what do you mean attached to the principles at your
8 Assembly session? Maybe it's a bad translation. What Assembly session?
9 A. When we were discussing on the 18th, was it? February or March.
10 When we discussed these principles, then this map was attached to the
11 principles and it was the map discussed, not the three earlier ones. It
12 was a general map identifying territories that would be Muslim, Croat, and
13 Serb respectively, with Sarajevo as an extraterritorial location. Not all
14 of it, but it was supposed to be under the United Nations.
15 Q. Well -- and this issue came up during the course of the
16 Prosecution case. If you look at tab 82, D7. That was a map -- or that
17 is a map, as we indicated to the Court and to you and your counsel,
18 Mr. Krajisnik, during the course of the Prosecution's case, that was
19 provided to the Office of the Prosecutor by Mr. Cutileiro, which appears
20 to reflect the municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, indicating
21 essentially where there were the different groups have an absolute or
22 relative majority.
23 A. No. No, Mr. Prosecutor. This is the Muslim map. Look at it.
24 It's the same as this other map, and look at the title where Cutileiro
25 says that Sarajevo would be ex-territorial, whereas on this map Sarajevo
1 is not separate. Everything is, instead, divided between three
2 territorial units. This is the Muslim map. Look at it; it's the same.
3 Q. Well, why don't we look, instead, to the statement of principles
4 themselves at tab 80, and in particular, on the third page of that
5 document, "Definition of the Constituent Units."
6 A. Yes, please go ahead.
7 Q. Under (E), as I indicated, it states: "A working group will be
8 established in order to define the territory of the constituent units
9 based on national principles and taking into account economic,
10 geographical, and other criteria. A map based on the national absolute or
11 relative majority in each municipality will be the basis of work in the
12 working group and will be subject only to amendments justified by the
13 above-mentioned criteria. A copy is annexed to this statement."
14 A. Yes, correct. And that is the map that you saw the first time.
15 Not the one that you've just shown but the map that we saw first. I don't
16 know at which tab it is.
17 Q. You've got two tabs --
18 A. Perhaps confusing at this moment.
19 Q. You've got two tabs; tab 82 and 83. 82 appears to represent a map
20 in which the municipalities are shaded in according -- consistent with the
21 absolute or relative majorities, and 83 appears to be a map which is
22 based, to say the least, on a different principle and does not appear to
23 identify the territory by municipality. Which of those two maps is it you
24 say was annexed to the statement of principles?
25 A. If I may be of assistance. You have in your material here at the
1 beginning exactly what Cutileiro said about Sarajevo. Your first map is
2 the Muslim map. It does not show Sarajevo. And he told me to read this
3 and you will translate it --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it's a simple question. We have the
5 map in Latin writing, more or less handwriting, and we have the one in
6 Cyrillic we find under tab 83. Which of these maps was attached to the
7 statement of principles?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] D7B is Cutileiro's map, and that was
9 attached to the principles. Whatever somebody may have written before,
10 it's that map --
11 JUDGE ORIE: No -- you say it was the map that we find under tab
12 83 that is in Cyrillic with typewritten text. That was the map, and not
13 82 that was attached to the statement of principles.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This map -- it's probably copied
15 from somewhere, I don't know. But that -- this is the map that was
16 attached to Cutileiro principles. Yes, it's true, it's written in
17 Cyrillic. It must have been copied from some document, but this kind of
18 map was attached, whereas the other map, written in Latinic script, is the
19 Muslim map. And here it is in the newspaper, the same map.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Tieger, is that at least clear, I
22 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think the answer is clear, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. So, among other things, Mr. Krajisnik, are you saying that the map
1 submitted by Cutileiro -- well, as you -- let me correct that. You've
2 been talking about D7B for quite a while and indicating that it was based
3 on settlements and not on municipalities. Do I have that correct?
4 A. This map was made as a compromise in order to form three
5 constituent units, and it's natural that he marked Muslims, Croat, and
6 Serb majority territories as a basis for discussion. You see, there is no
7 corridor drawn on this map anywhere. Mr. Prosecutor --
8 Q. No, no --
9 A. But please, let me help you. Just to avoid confusion. I hope
10 you're interested in the truth. It says here: Sarajevo will be
11 extraterritorial with Serb parts, whereas in the other map there is no
12 separate Sarajevo. It says at the beginning: All of Bosnia in three
13 parts. It's another matter that this format was copied from somewhere.
14 Q. I didn't ask you about the format. I was focussed on the issue of
15 municipalities, so please listen to my questions and we'll get to the
16 truth that much faster, I hope. I -- the map that you have been referring
17 to, D7B, at tab 83, I think you made some effort to tell us is -- is
18 different from the Muslim map, perhaps in a number of ways, but certainly
19 in that the map submitted by the Muslim side was based on municipalities
20 and this map, D7B, was based on settlements.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I foresee that we get a similar --
22 similar confusion, both on the basis of the earlier testimony and on the
23 maps itself.
24 Is the difference, Mr. Krajisnik, between the two maps that the
25 one reflects only what is a majority -- or a majority municipality,
1 whereas the map in tab 83 also took into consideration, although not
2 consistently in every detail, but also took into consideration majorities
3 in smaller units - villages, et cetera - and was not exclusively based
4 upon majority population and municipalities? Is that a correct
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. It took it into
7 consideration roughly. Not municipalities but some sort of units in order
8 to round off the entities, whereas the Muslims did take it into account in
9 their own way. That is -- was their proposal.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
11 Does that answer the question, Mr. Tieger, you had in mind?
12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you, I appreciate that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Now, we've already looked at the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I said "please proceed," but at the same time,
17 looking at the clock, I notice it's a quarter to 2.00. Therefore, we have
18 to adjourn for the day.
19 We adjourn for the day, but not until after I have reminded --
20 have instructed you, Mr. Krajisnik, that you should not speak to anyone
21 about the testimony you have given or you're still about to give. And we
22 adjourn until tomorrow, 9.00, in this same courtroom.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 2nd day of
25 June, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.