Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25291

1 Wednesday, 7 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom and also

6 those just outside assisting us.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Harmon, are you ready to --

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just say Mr. Jonovic, Andrej

13 Jonovic, has returned to the case. He has been away learning some law in

14 London, which is never a bad thing, but he's back here.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not express itself whether London is

16 a better place to learn the law than any other place in the world.

17 MR. STEWART: Nor will we, Your Honour, for this Tribunal.

18 JUDGE ORIE: But nevertheless, welcome back, Mr. Jonovic.

19 Mr. Harmon, are you ready to proceed?

20 MR. HARMON: I am, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I would even have almost already

Page 25292

1 expected you to remind me that I should remind you that you're still bound

2 by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony, but

3 that even goes without saying; nevertheless I say it.

4 Mr. Harmon.


6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we are still on the topic of the arming of the

7 Bosnian Serbs prior to the 12th of May and your knowledge about that.

8 Yesterday, you testified in the third session of the hearing that you were

9 aware of two affairs in which Serbs had been blamed where it had do with

10 trucks full of weapons that were captured. There was a debate in the

11 Assembly about this problem. "So it was not totally unknown that there

12 was some kind of arming, but I didn't want to get involved in that kind of

13 thing."

14 That, I believe, is found, Your Honours, at page 47 of the

15 transcript yesterday. I have a time cite of 18:28:53.

16 Mr. Krajisnik, did one of those incidents in which Serbs were

17 involved in arming involve an SDS member of the BH parliament by the name

18 of Dusan Kozic?

19 A. Well, I said there was a debate in the Assembly. Not an official

20 one, though, regarding a truck that came precisely from Herzegovina and

21 ultimately ended up, allegedly, in the Bileca barracks, but it was not an

22 official debate.

23 Now, was it Kozic or somebody else, I cannot say.

24 Q. Let me --

25 A. But I know that it was discussed at the Assembly.

Page 25293

1 MR. HARMON: Let me pass out two exhibits. These are -- Your

2 Honours don't have. These -- once they're distributed, I will need a

3 number on each.

4 JUDGE ORIE: While these documents are distributed, Mr. Harmon,

5 the passage you just referred to appears in my transcript at page 25275,

6 last few lines.

7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the first document, which seems to

9 be press clipping with the --

10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may I have the other -- the other

11 document numbered first? I'll be using that one first.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the report on the uncovering of the

13 smuggling of weapons into Bosnia-Herzegovina will have number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: P1213, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And then the other document, which seems to be a

16 press clipping, the title in bold being "Karadzic Against America Too"

17 would be number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: P1214, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'm going to be referring first to the report on

22 the uncovering of the smuggling of weapons into Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 It is Exhibit P1213, and I would like to direct your attention and the

24 Court's attention -- first of all the Court's attention to page 2 of the

25 document, the second and --

Page 25294

1 A. But I've never seen any one of these documents before, and I was

2 not kept abreast of these writings.

3 Q. Let me --

4 A. I just said that there was an extra-parliamentary debate. I'm

5 just saying that I did not --

6 Q. Let me -- let me, first of all, identify these documents and

7 direct your attention and the Court's attention to the appropriate

8 passages. Take your time and examine the P1213.

9 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I'm going to be referring principally

10 to the passages that are found starting at the second paragraph, page 2 in

11 the English.

12 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, for your information, in the B/C/S version I'm

13 principally going to be focusing your attention on the first page, the

14 last paragraph, going over to the second paragraph -- second page through

15 the first full paragraph on the second page. But after you have a chance

16 to review those documents, please let me know, and I will proceed in

17 asking you some questions about them.

18 A. Just these two paragraphs, is that what you're saying? I really

19 should have had a look at this information. I haven't seen it before. As

20 for this particular case, yes, we discussed it in the Assembly. I mean,

21 yes. Extra-parliamentary debate. That's what I'm saying.

22 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, familiarise yourself with that document,

23 principally the passages starting from the beginning and through the

24 passages I've mentioned to you.

25 A. I've read it.

Page 25295

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this is a report from the Ministry of the Interior

2 in Sarajevo relating to an event that occurred on the 24th of May, 1991,

3 and if we turn to the actual incident itself you can see that a vehicle

4 that was driven by a Milutin Popovic was stopped, and present in that car

5 was Dusan Kozic. Now, first of all, Dusan Kozic was an SDS member of the

6 Bosnian parliament, wasn't he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Shortly after this incident in July, Dusan Kozic was elected to

9 the SDS Main Board along with you; correct?

10 A. But he was still a Member of Parliament. I mean, I don't know

11 whether he was elected. Probably so, yes.

12 Q. I'll show you a document and you can confirm whether he was

13 elected or not.

14 A. No, I mean I believe you, but he was an MP throughout.

15 Q. Yes. He's also a member -- thereafter he was also a member of the

16 SDS Main Board, with you.

17 A. But he was in the SDS before that as well, before July, 1991. It

18 wasn't that he became that only then. As far as I know, he was a member

19 of the Main Board.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. And before --

22 Q. You've answered my question then. In this incident,

23 Mr. Krajisnik, you can see that the vehicle in which Mr. Kozic was a

24 passenger contained eight crates of rifles, each containing 10

25 Russian-made automatic rifles, containing 16.800 bullets, it contained a

Page 25296

1 pistol, it contained 78 pistol cartridges. And at the scene of the

2 detention and stop, Mr. Kozic requested immunity, parliamentary immunity

3 in this incident. Now, you, Mr. Krajisnik, were the president of the

4 Assembly. A member of your party was arrested on serious charges, or at

5 least detained on serious charges, the smuggling of eight crates of

6 automatic weapons. Did that matter concern you as the president of the

7 Assembly?

8 A. I didn't know anything about this. I didn't know that he had been

9 stopped or that he was seeking immunity, nothing. I'll tell you what

10 people were saying at the Assembly, but this I hadn't had the opportunity

11 of -- well, it has nothing to do with me. He's an MP in the Assembly of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. So how did you become aware of this incident, then, Mr. Krajisnik?

14 A. Well, I'm telling you. We had a session of the Assembly, and then

15 deputies in the corridors started discussing this. "You Serbs are arming

16 yourselves," and I didn't hear of any investigation or criminal charges or

17 arrest or anything. I heard of nothing, and I didn't even know it was

18 Kozic. I just knew that there was some case in Bileca that allegedly some

19 army weapons were there. Perhaps it was this way, but I don't know. I

20 heard of a similar case, though, similar to what you've been telling me,

21 that this truck was stopped, the one coming from Montenegro. Actually, I

22 heard this from the Muslims. From Muslim deputies, that is.

23 Q. Well, I want to focus on Mr. Kozic because he was a member of your

24 party. Did the event give rise to any discussions in the SDS Deputies'

25 Club?

Page 25297

1 A. There was no discussion about this, and this person was not

2 identified as Kozic. Now I see it's Kozic. Well, probably it was. I

3 don't know about this.

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, in May of 1991, would it have been -- and given the

5 political situation both in Croatia and eminent difficult situation in

6 Bosnia, would the fact that eight cartons -- eight crates of weapons were

7 being smuggled by an SDS Member of Parliament would have been something

8 that would have been noteworthy? Would it have been something that would

9 have been serious?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if it is serious -- well, of course it's serious,

11 but if that was true, then there was a procedure that should have been

12 initiated. That is to say for having this MP's immunity removed, to have

13 this discussed before parliament, et cetera. That's the procedure. What

14 I am supposed to do with an MP who is a suspect? If something like this

15 was actually done, then immunity should have been removed, but nobody did

16 that. Or, rather, those who knew about it didn't do anything about it.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to turn your attention to P1214, the next

18 exhibit that's in front of you, and I want to direct your attention to --

19 JUDGE ORIE: But before we do so, Mr. Harmon. Mr. Krajisnik, you

20 earlier said, "... we discussed it in the Assembly. I mean ...

21 extra-parliamentary debate." What did you mean by that?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when the Prosecutor

23 asked me about whether I had ever been informed about the Serbs arming

24 themselves, I said that I had heard an unofficial discussion. You know,

25 before the debate, before the session. I heard that there was such a case

Page 25298

1 in Herzegovina. And deputies talk the way they talk. Everybody talks in

2 his own way. So this was not before the Assembly and no measures were

3 taken. And then I said there were these two cases. That's what I meant.

4 We kept blaming them and they kept blaming us. I know MPs did that. I

5 know of two cases where Serbs were being blamed, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So you didn't say, "We discussed it in the Assembly

7 extra-parliamentary debate." Did you say "we" or did you say others or --

8 I mean, I'm just trying to find out how to understand your testimony, and

9 also perhaps I'd like to verify what you exactly said in your own

10 language.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point is that that is when I

12 learned about this, that the MPs were discussing this amongst --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I was asking you what you said in this

14 court. I mean, that's what you explained, but I'd like to know from you

15 whether you said we discussed it whether this is an error in translation

16 and that you did say something else.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always use this term "we." I

18 meant our side, you see. Well, I probably said "we," yes. But I use "we"

19 in the sense of our side. I meant our MPs.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you called that an extra-parliamentary

21 debate, and you now explain that this was an informal discussion you heard

22 about of MPs discussing matters, well, let's say in the corridors. Is

23 that a correct understanding?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. At that Assembly, that is to

25 say in this environment, I heard about this, that the MPs amongst

Page 25299

1 themselves were mentioning this case, and that is when I learned of it.

2 However, this was a daily occurrence, these mutual accusations, and I

3 didn't pay any attention to it because other side was accusing the other

4 side the previous day, for instance. But I said that I heard of these two

5 cases.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you use the words -- I mean,

7 "extra-parliamentary debate," is that correctly translated or ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did say "extra-parliamentary

9 debate." It is not a debate, though. It is as you enter the hall.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You explained that already. I just wanted to know

11 what words you used.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question for you as well.

14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, you said

15 yesterday, "[In English] There was a debate in the Assembly about this

16 problem." [Interpretation] And you've added, "[In English] So it is not

17 that it was totally unknown that there was some kind of arming but I

18 didn't want to get involved in that kind of thing." [Interpretation] This

19 is what you said yesterday.

20 First of all, if I understood you correctly, today you're telling

21 us that there was no debate at the Assembly; is that right?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not at the session, Your

23 Honour. But you know what it's like; two hours before the session the MPs

24 meet up.

25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]

Page 25300

1 ... I'm just asking you to tell me the following: Within the walls of

2 that room, did you discuss this topic? Yes or no.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean at the session. Let me

4 just check that.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm talking about that place

6 where all the deputies meet.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, it was among the

8 deputies that this was being discussed, yes.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So it was not in a hallway. It

10 was not a conversation that took place in the corridor, in a hallway.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the corridors, yes, in the

12 "couloirs," yes.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Second question, Mr. Krajisnik:

14 "[In English] I didn't want to get involved in that kind of thing."

15 [Interpretation] What does this mean, "I did not want to get involved in

16 that kind of thing"?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's quite simple, Your Honour.

18 Every day there were accusations levelled at different sides, and I wanted

19 the institutions to deal with that. Why am I supposed to infer something,

20 and why am I supposed to ask whether the rumours are correct? There's the

21 MUP, there's the government; let them resolve it. That's what I did both

22 in the case of Muslims and in the case of Serbs. I just learned about it,

23 heard about it, sort of like that.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So it does not mean that you were

25 not particularly interested in the topic.

Page 25301

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Well, how should I put it? It

2 wasn't that I wasn't particularly interested, but I just didn't pay much

3 attention because this was a daily topic. Well, not a daily topic, but

4 sort of. There were these accusations.

5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.


7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if you could turn your attention to P1214.

8 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I direct your attention to the middle

9 paragraph.

10 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, this is a very short article. I'm principally

11 concerned in the text that starts at the top of the second column, the

12 column to the right, and goes down approximately nine lines, eight lines.

13 The text which I will read into the record, this is attributed to

14 Dr. Karadzic at a press conference. The text reads: "SDS claims that the

15 weapons that were transported through Bileca were trophy weapons and that

16 it was only coincidence that the SDS deputy in the BH Assembly, Dusan

17 Kozic, found himself there. Karadzic thinks it is also a conspiracy of

18 anti-Serbian media."

19 First question, Mr. Krajisnik: Is the term "trophy weapons," are

20 you familiar with that term, and can you explain to the Court what that

21 term means in your language?

22 A. Trophy weapons is if you have weapons -- well, if you have, say, a

23 trophy from the Second World War, and then you keep it at home as a

24 memento. It can be used but it's not some kind of modern weapon. I mean,

25 that is my understanding.

Page 25302

1 Q. Okay. So Dr. Karadzic is explaining to the public through this

2 press conference that these eight crates of 10 Russian-made automatic

3 weapons are trophy weapons. Is that how you interpret this text?

4 A. I cannot interpret this. I don't know anything about it. I don't

5 know why he said this. And I don't know whether there were eight crates

6 and whether these were trophy weapons. I cannot interpret that. I don't

7 even know what kind of weapons. Some kind of Russian-made weapons, if

8 that's what this report says. Russian-made -- I mean, Russian automatic

9 rifles were not modern weapons. I know. Those are the ones that have

10 drums. But that is really old fashioned, like from the Second World War,

11 if what the report says is correct.

12 Q. You mean if what Dr. Karadzic says is correct.

13 A. No, no. That information where it says Russian automatic weapons,

14 those are the ones with drums, an old-fashioned weapon. As far as I

15 managed to read this, I think that is what it says here. I can have a

16 look.

17 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask you one additional question,

18 Mr. Krajisnik: Is it your testimony that Russian automatic weapons were

19 not produced after the Second World War?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. The Russian automatic

21 weapons that I saw were the ones with drums at our theatres of war. I

22 don't know when they were manufactured, but that's what the soldiers told

23 me. That was their explanation given to me. These automatic weapons with

24 drums, if I read that here, if I read that they were Russian automatic

25 weapons.

Page 25303

1 JUDGE ORIE: So now I have to understand your testimony to be that

2 where the article says that it was Russian automatic weapons --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Russian made.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That you are acquainted only with Russian

5 automatic weapons that originate from the Second World War, without having

6 any knowledge on whether, later on, automatic weapons were produced.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. No. No.

8 Mr. President, on the second page of this information, I read this, there

9 were 10 automatic rifles, Russian made. In eight crates with 10 rifles

10 respectively. That's what I read in the information.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You said, "The information where it says Russian

12 automatic weapons, those are the ones with drums, drums, an old-fashioned

13 weapon. As far as I manage to read this, this is what it says here."

14 From what I understand, the article only says "Russian automatic weapons."

15 You interpret that as being the Russian automatic weapons as you told us

16 you are familiar with that are the ones with drums originating from the

17 Second World War. Therefore, my question was whether you are aware of any

18 later produced Russian automatic weapons in order to see what makes you

19 interpret this information as relating to very old-fashioned weapons

20 rather than any other weapons.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the first information

22 says in 10 crates there were Russian automatic weapons. That's what it

23 says in the first information. Russian made.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It even says automatic rifles, but apart from

25 that detail, yes, please proceed.

Page 25304

1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't know --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No. No. No.

3 MR. JOSSE: Have I got this wrong? There is no reference to

4 Russian in the newspaper article.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm talking about the report. Perhaps that's the

6 confusion.

7 MR. JOSSE: Because the cross-examination was about the newspaper

8 article at this particular juncture.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then I have to -- let me then focus on

10 that. That's good that you draw my attention to it. Let me just see.

11 Yes. Nevertheless, Mr. Krajisnik referred to Russian rifles,

12 apparently referring to the other document. I mean, I did not invent your

13 answer, Mr. Krajisnik, that you were talking about Russian weapons and

14 that you explained that the Russian weapons were the old-fashioned ones

15 with drums. It's totally unclear to me on what basis you conclude, when

16 talking about Russian automatic weapons, why you conclude that these were

17 the old-fashioned ones rather than anything produced since 1945.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, Your Honour. In the first

19 brief it's clearly written, "Eight crates containing 10 automatic weapons

20 of Russian make each." Not automatic rifles. I know that what we used in

21 the last -- in the World War II, that there were those rifles with drums.

22 Automatic rifles are a modern thing, and automatic weapons that I knew

23 were those ones with drums from World War II. I mean, I don't actually

24 know, I'm just interpreting it to the best of my knowledge.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then, first of all, I'd like to have this checked on

Page 25305

1 whether it says rifles or -- perhaps we could have the original --

2 MR. JOSSE: Could I make one other observation?


4 MR. JOSSE: Part of the problem may be that in his question my

5 learned friend Mr. Harmon, referring clearly to the newspaper article,

6 said so Dr. Karadzic is explaining to the public through this press

7 conference that these eight crates of 10 Russian-made automatic weapons

8 are trophy weapons," and of course, as I've observed, the newspaper

9 article doesn't say that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, but since the answer

11 referred also to automatic weapons and gave an interpretation of what

12 those weapons would have been, I put my question in relation to that

13 answer. But let's first check whether it says -- could we have the

14 original, second page, where it reads -- Madam Usher, could you -- that's

15 the second page. Could I draw the attention approximately the middle of

16 the page.

17 For the interpreters, it reads "sa po 10 automata ruske" and then

18 a word which I can't pronounce. Does that say rifles or weapons, or

19 perhaps neither of them?

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It says "automata" which

21 means "automatic." It doesn't mean anything specific. "Automatic" can

22 mean submachine-gun, it can mean automatic rifle. It is not --

23 JUDGE ORIE: So it's not specified as far as the type of automatic

24 weapon is concerned.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 25306

1 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could you please then translate just the

2 relevant line. Could I invite you then to -- perhaps someone slowly reads

3 -- Mr. Sladojevic, could you please read the line in which both the 10,

4 the eight, and the 16.800 appear, slowly read it, and may I invite the

5 interpreters then to translate.

6 MR. SLADOJEVIC: [Interpretation] "Established that in the freight

7 area there are eight crates containing 10 automatic weapons of Russian

8 make each, and 16.800 rounds for those weapons."

9 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore the translation in English, where it

10 says "rifles" gives a specification which does not appear in the original

11 text.

12 Nevertheless, Mr. Krajisnik, still -- because I'm coming back to

13 my point. You interpreted this information. You went, without any

14 further explanation, as to more or less old-fashioned weapons, and I still

15 do not understand why you interpreted this as being weapons with drums

16 known to you from the Second World War rather than any other automatic

17 weapon produced in Russia since the Second World War.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, during the war,

19 Kalashnikovs were in use. Kalashnikovs are Russian-made automatic rifles.

20 But also in use were old automatic weapons from World War II, with drums,

21 drum barrels. And when it says "automatic weapons" in this text, it

22 cannot mean automatic rifles. No way. In the Serbian language, when you

23 read it, it's clear. The Russian-made automatic weapons were the ones

24 with drum barrels. I don't know what automatic weapons are, but I'm

25 telling you what I saw as a layman during the war.

Page 25307

1 JUDGE ORIE: And could you then please also explain why you say

2 it's -- you say, "From a language point of view this could not be

3 understood as automatic rifles."

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, Your Honour. I

5 have rather little English, and when I try to find a proper translation

6 for the word "automat," I found both "automatic rifle" and "automatic

7 weapon." But in our language it's different, and I know how it worked in

8 practice. "Automat" was the word used to describe this drum barrel

9 weapon, whereas automatic rifles are something different.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Should I then understand that apart from the

11 Kalashnikov automatic rifles you referred to, that no other automatic

12 weapons were produced in Russia since 1945?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no clue. I just know what

14 there was in circulation in our parts. I don't know anything else. I'm

15 just saying that those automatic weapons that were in circulation at the

16 beginning of the war originated from World War II. Whether it's the same

17 thing, I don't know. And I don't even know where they brought them from.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now understand why you drew that conclusion.

19 Whether that is a conclusion which is justified by the reasons you gave is

20 another question which we don't have to answer now.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Why wouldn't it be

23 justified, Your Honour? I would like to get things clear.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just tell me what remains unclear.

Page 25308

1 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Krajisnik. Well, to be quite honest, you

2 say, "I don't have the knowledge. I don't have the knowledge."

3 Nevertheless, you drew conclusions. That's the reason why I said this.

4 But I left that question open, but that could be the reason for posing

5 such question. And I'm not debating with you, Mr. Krajisnik. No, no. I

6 gave Mr. Harmon an opportunity now to proceed. No, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could explain.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon now gets -- you can do that at the end of

9 your testimony. Mr. Harmon can put his next question. Mr. Krajisnik --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know why there is

11 such a problem about this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, the affair of Mr. Kozic and the smuggling of

15 weapons was on the front page of Oslobodjenje on the 27th of May, 1991, as

16 well as a reference to his invoking immunity. Were you aware that this

17 particular incident received that sort of public notoriety?

18 A. I have to tell you that I'm pretty thrown at this moment, and I

19 cannot properly answer questions because I am experiencing this as an

20 injustice to me, that a conclusion should have been made that does not

21 appreciate my -- my explanations. I have no idea about any of this.

22 Q. Okay. So you are unaware that this Kozic affair was on the front

23 page of Oslobodjenje on the 27th of May. I take it that is your answer.

24 Do I understand your answer correctly?

25 A. Possibly. Possibly. Maybe I've read -- maybe I read it before.

Page 25309

1 I don't know any more. I don't know whether it was accurate or not,

2 because I had read hundreds of articles in Oslobodjenje telling stories

3 that were untrue. Maybe I read it and thought it was inaccurate. There

4 was very ugly propaganda coming from all sides.

5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, referring to Prosecution Exhibit 1214, Mr. Karadzic

6 clearly was apprised of the -- what I will call the Kozic affair because

7 he commented on this publicly. He commented directly on the event, the

8 weapons being transported through Bileca, and that it was only a

9 coincidence that the SDS deputy in the BH Assembly, Dusan Kozic, found

10 himself there.

11 Now, how is it, Mr. Krajisnik, that Mr. Karadzic knew about this

12 affair and you did not?

13 A. Well, Mr. Karadzic is not my twin brother. I didn't know, and I'm

14 really indignant now. I cannot answer these questions any more this way.

15 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Might I endorse what Mr. Krajisnik has just

16 said. That was a question he simply could not answer. The only result

17 was utter speculation.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me re-read the question. Mr. Harmon, the first

19 question should have been, "Do you know how Mr. Karadzic knew about this?"

20 And it appears from the answer that Mr. -- that he doesn't know, so

21 therefore the question has been answered. Apart from -- I'm just

22 interpreting the newspaper article. The coincidence which is mentioned --

23 okay, let's not further comment on that. Mr. Krajisnik has answered your

24 question. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


Page 25310

1 Q. Now, finally, Mr. Krajisnik, the excuse or the defence to this

2 affair that is given by Mr. Karadzic is that he thinks it was also a

3 conspiracy of the anti-Serbian media. I have two questions for you,

4 Mr. Krajisnik: Was there an investigation by members of the SDS either at

5 a party level or at any other level in parliament into this affair; and if

6 not, why not?

7 A. I don't know whether they conducted an investigation, and if they

8 didn't, I don't know why they didn't. I don't know why it would have been

9 up to them to conduct an investigation when they had official state

10 authorities for that. This is the year 1991. For six months of that year

11 the MUP functioned. They could have carried out an investigation. There

12 was the public prosecutor's office. Why would it be them? I mean, I

13 don't know. I don't understand the question.

14 Q. Okay. Well, I think we've explored this topic enough,

15 Mr. Krajisnik. I want to turn next to an exhibit that has been previously

16 exhibited, and I have -- it's P37. It is a transcript, a portion of the

17 transcript of P37. This, Mr. Krajisnik, is a transcript of the SDS

18 Assembly session that took place on the 12th of July, 1991. I would like

19 to direct --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number?

21 MR. HARMON: No, it has a number, Your Honour. I mentioned P37.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you did.

23 MR. HARMON: An extract from P37. Your Honours, I'm going to

24 directs Your Honours' attention to the comments of Miro Delic, who was the

25 president of the Bileca SDS, found at page 100, and particularly I direct

Page 25311

1 Your Honours' attention from the beginning of his remarks through to the

2 conclusion of the first paragraph on page 101.

3 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, for your reference, I'm referring to page 89.

4 You'll see 89 in the upper right-hand corner and you'll see, seven lines

5 from the bottom, the comments of Miro Delic, and I want you to read, if

6 you would, through to the end of page 90.

7 A. I've read it.

8 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this speech from Mr. Delic deals with essentially a

9 new party that has been established in his municipality, the League of

10 Communists Movement for Yugoslavia, and he goes on to say, starting at the

11 bottom of page 100 in the English, he said, "But that is the least

12 important thing. In the meantime, in fact, just two days ago the party

13 organised a conference of its members and sympathisers, officers and other

14 Commies, I would call them, in Bileca municipality, although there are

15 very few of them. The conference was held in the JNA club in Bileca.

16 They raised the issue of involvement or, rather, distribution of weapons

17 to this group as a response to the distribution of weapons in the SDS

18 organisation."

19 Mr. Krajisnik, were you present when those remarks were made?

20 A. I didn't read that part about the SDS. I read till the end of

21 page 90, but I didn't see that passage. Give me just a second, please.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. Could you tell me where is it written "distribution of weapons to

24 the SDS"? I read through the end of page 90.

25 Q. It's found on page 90, Mr. Krajisnik --

Page 25312

1 A. Oh, yes, yes. Yes. Please go ahead.

2 Q. First question, Mr. Krajisnik: Were you present when Mr. Delic

3 made his remarks?

4 A. I don't know the man, but I did attend this session of the

5 Assembly. However, I don't remember what he said here. I do know about

6 this party called Movement for Yugoslavia. I don't remember the man now.

7 At that time maybe I had heard of him.

8 Q. But if these remarks were made in your presence, Mr. Krajisnik,

9 where there's a clear and unequivocal reference to the distribution of

10 weapons in the SDS organisation, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm trying to understand

11 your evidence, did you hear those remarks? Do you recall those remarks?

12 A. I don't recall him saying this, but I'm not saying that he

13 couldn't have. He must have said it, since it's recorded.

14 Q. If we turn, Mr. Krajisnik, if we continue immediately after these

15 remarks by this particular speaker, you speak - that's found at page 102,

16 Mr. Krajisnik, and your version it's found at the bottom of page 91 - and

17 you then called upon Dr. Karadzic to say something on the topic, although

18 he has already presented the position on that in his report. Dr. Karadzic

19 then addresses the assembled SDS deputies, and we can find his remarks on

20 page 92, Mr. Krajisnik, and in particular I direct your attention to the

21 paragraph, middle of the page, starting with "Me --" it looks like "yes,

22 no."

23 And, Your Honours, I direct your attention to page 102, the last

24 paragraph.

25 Given those remarks were significant, Mr. Krajisnik, you directed

Page 25313

1 Dr. Karadzic to respond, and Dr. Karadzic in fact did respond, and he said

2 the following: "We have said clearly that we will not be creating any

3 party armies. We know that Serbs are arming themselves with smuggled

4 weapons and some ancient ones. We as a party do not have the right to arm

5 the people, but we do not have the right to discourage it either, because

6 we could lead it into a position so difficult it could result in its

7 suffering."

8 Do you recall those remarks of Dr. Karadzic?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wait a minute. I'm not the chairman

10 here. Somebody else chaired that session.

11 Q. All right. Well, who was that, then? If I've made a mistake,

12 I'll stand corrected.

13 A. I don't know. I don't know. I had nothing to do with it.

14 Q. Fine.

15 A. Somebody else chaired the session when Mr. Karadzic made his

16 contribution. This was a party gathering.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I'll stand corrected. My

18 question, nevertheless, remains the same: Did you hear the remarks of

19 Dr. Karadzic that I just read to you?

20 A. He may have said that. I'm not ruling out that possibility.

21 Maybe I even heard it. Okay, let's say I heard it, but what then? I

22 don't understand the question. Let's assume that I did hear him say this.

23 I tried to explain that discussion and debate was going on in all

24 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, saying that everybody was arming themselves,

25 and I already explained two specific examples. His remarks here are of a

Page 25314

1 general nature, nothing specific. It was common knowledge that Bosnia is

2 full of weapons. I did see later that Serbs had weapons, but I don't know

3 in which way they were supplied and who supplied them. Whether those were

4 smuggling channels or private sales, and I saw later during the war that

5 they had weapons, including those of the Yugoslav People's Army.

6 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, at this particular session of the SDS Assembly on

7 the 12th of July, 45 members were elected to the Main Board of the SDS.

8 You can see that at -- Your Honours, at page -- starting at 125 of

9 the English.

10 And, Mr. Krajisnik, in the B/C/S version, you'll see that on the

11 last page of the document.

12 Mr. Krajisnik, you were elected to the SDS Main Board, as it says.

13 Mr. Jovan Tintor and Danilo Veselinovic were elected. Both of those

14 persons elected to the SDS Main Board represented Sarajevo, did they not?

15 A. First of all, they are from Sarajevo, but there are many others

16 among them who are from Sarajevo: Ratko Adzic, Jovo Jovanovic, Jovan

17 Sarac, Neskovic, Toholj; all of them are men from Sarajevo, and the two

18 that you mentioned are.

19 Q. I'm only asking you about the two. In addition, Rajko Dukic,

20 number 35, Goran Zugic, number 36, those people from the Birac area, the

21 area where Mr. Deronjic came from; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. We know from the --

24 A. They are from Birac, yes, from Milici, and Srebrenica.

25 Q. We also know from the examination of this document that

Page 25315

1 Mr. Deronjic was present because he was one of the speakers. And he stood

2 for election, but he did not gain a seat on the Main Board, at least in

3 1991. He subsequently did in 1993. And finally, the man we've been

4 talking when, Dusko Kozic, is number 44 on this document, Mr. Krajisnik.

5 Now, the Trial Chamber, Mr. Krajisnik, has heard evidence that

6 Messrs. Tintor, Veselinovic, Dukic, Zugic, Deronjic, and now Mr. Kozic

7 were involved in the smuggling of arms to Serbian citizens prior to the

8 commencement of the war. Did you at any time, Mr. Krajisnik, have a

9 conversation with any of those co-members of the SDS Main Board and

10 discuss the topic of the arming of Bosnian Serbs prior to the 12th of May,

11 1992?

12 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I told you that I didn't know in which way Serbs

13 were arming themselves. I told you the extent of my knowledge concerning

14 two cases that were talked about, although they were never brought to

15 trial, that represented an indication that Serbs were getting hold of

16 weapons in some way. How, I don't know. And that's, in truth, all my

17 knowledge about arms supplies.

18 Not a single piece of weaponry reached my village, because I've

19 told you already if I could have, if I had been involved in that, my

20 village would have been the first on my list.

21 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I know that your village was important to you. I

22 know that Sarajevo, from the evidence that I've heard so far, was very,

23 very important to you personally because your family roots were from the

24 Novi Grad municipality, from Rajlovac, and I know also politically

25 Sarajevo was considered important by the Bosnian Serbs. So I know you

Page 25316

1 took a keen interest in the events in that municipality. That's correct,

2 isn't it?

3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you're taking the wrong path. I have nothing to

4 do with Jovan Tintor or Veselinovic or whatever they stated here. Please,

5 let's not waste any more time. Sarajevo is important to me. Rajlovac is

6 important to me. Zabrdje is important to me. No problem whatsoever. I

7 know exactly what you're getting at, but please, this has nothing to do

8 anything.

9 Q. Let's -- Mr. Krajisnik, let's turn to tab 120. If Mr. Krajisnik

10 could be given the bundle we had yesterday. Tab 120, Your Honours, is

11 Exhibit P825, tab 5.

12 Mr. Krajisnik, as soon as it's given to you. In the meantime,

13 Your Honours, I'm going to address Your Honours' attention to the bottom

14 -- the last paragraph at the bottom of page 1 in the English.

15 And, Mr. Krajisnik, the page -- the paragraph I want to direct

16 your attention to is on page 2. It is the second complete paragraph on

17 page 2.

18 And the document, Your Honour, is a document that is dated the

19 20th of September, 1993, and it is a document that is --

20 A. If you could just tell me where the beginning is.

21 Q. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik. I'm referring to page 2 of the document, and

22 it says "Pocetkom 1991."

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. HARMON: This is a document, Your Honour, from the Republika

25 Srpska Ministry of Internal Affairs, Serbian public security station in

Page 25317

1 Ilidza. The author of this document is a man who is the chief of the

2 public security station in Ilidza, Tihomir Glavas. It is dated the 20th

3 of September, 1993, and it is in part a retrospective document.

4 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this document -- I'll read the paragraph I am

5 interested in. "At the beginning of 1991, during illegal meetings

6 organised by Kovac Tomislav, Commander of the Ilidza public security

7 station at the time, policemen of Serbian nationality were informed that

8 the war option for realisation of national interests was being

9 increasingly promoted. Aside from the obligation that Serbs gather up and

10 prepare for war through those meetings that took place in Dobrinja, Ilidza

11 and Blazuj, it was also agreed that intense activity should be undertaken

12 to arm citizens of Serbian nationality. Armament was transported from

13 Ravna Romanija, Pale, Sokolac, Kalinovik, the village of Nedavici, Trnovo,

14 village of Tosici, Hadzici, Jusuf Dzonlagici barracks, Lukavica, and

15 Nedzarici."

16 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, how far is Ilidza from your home village of

17 Rajlovac?

18 A. Five or six kilometres, perhaps eight kilometres, not more than

19 that.

20 Q. And how far is Hadzici from your home village in Rajlovac?

21 A. Well, about 20 -- say, 15 to 20 kilometres. I can't say exactly.

22 From Zabrdje to -- well, I think that's it.

23 Q. Now, this document, Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, do you know --

24 did you know Tomislav Kovac prior to the beginning of the war?

25 A. Prior to the beginning of the war?

Page 25318

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Maybe I met him once. Maybe -- just a moment, please. Yes, yes.

3 Yes. I did know him, yes.

4 Q. Now --

5 A. But I hardly saw him.

6 Q. Now, this -- this document -- this report discusses a --

7 essentially a -- essentially an intensive arming programme, starting in

8 the beginning of 1991. And as we know, Mr. Krajisnik, from the concerns

9 of the Serbian people, from the leadership, that they had paramount

10 concerns about genocide and being victims of genocide once again.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, we've seen another document, and I'm going to show

12 it to you in a few minutes. It's the key that was attached to the report

13 prepared by General Kukanjac on the 20th of March. That's P51. I'll show

14 it to you in a few minutes. But the key to that report, the addendum to

15 that report, indicates that in Ilidza 2.800 weapons were distributed, and

16 in Hadzici 1.500 weapons were distributed. The distribution of those

17 weapons was both through the JNA and through the SDS party.

18 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, were you aware that in the municipality that

19 was adjacent to your home there was the distribution of arms to Serb

20 citizens beginning in 1991?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already answered that I did not know. I

22 did not know about the way in which they were being armed. I told you

23 what I knew then. I was then the president of the Assembly of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Let me turn to a different document, then, Mr. Krajisnik. This is

Page 25319

1 found at tab 118, Mr. Krajisnik. I want to take you through -- very

2 quickly through a series of documents.

3 Tab 118 has an exhibit number, Mr. Krajisnik. It's P529, Hanson

4 tab 223. This is a document we recently saw in the cross-examination of

5 one of your witnesses. This is a transcript in July or August of 1994,

6 and this is an interview with -- between Mr. Risto Djogo and Jovan Tintor.

7 Now, I want to confirm two things before we explore this document,

8 Mr. Krajisnik.

9 Jovo Tintor had a close relationship with your family. I think

10 the term in your language is "kum." Isn't that correct?

11 A. He was kum to one of my relatives.

12 Q. Which means that there was a close relationship between one of

13 your relatives and Mr. Tintor; correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes. They were close.

15 Q. Which relative is that?

16 A. Krajisnik Slavka Slavisa. I'm his paternal uncle, twice removed.

17 Q. Okay. Now, you knew Mr. Tintor, didn't you, before the beginning

18 of the war?

19 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him.

20 Q. And Mr. Tintor was also, as we have seen earlier, a member of the

21 SDS Main Board with you. And in this interview, Mr. Krajisnik, I'm

22 referring to the English page 5, starting at the top; and, Mr. Krajisnik,

23 for your benefit, in the B/C/S it is the page that has the ERN number with

24 the last four digits 5236.

25 You may remember this interview, Mr. Krajisnik. This is where

Page 25320

1 Mr. Djogo reveals a secret and asks Mr. Tintor about essentially a ruse

2 that he employed prior to the beginning of the war where he and his

3 ex-secretary, Ms. Branka, loaded up a procession of 32 vehicles, they

4 loaded them up with weapons, pretended it was a wedding procession, and

5 they smuggled those weapons into the municipality of Vogosca.

6 Now, I want to establish one other fact with you, Mr. Krajisnik.

7 This Branka was your interpreter, wasn't she, in various negotiations?

8 A. No, no. No. No. This is his secretary. Nothing to do with it.

9 Q. Did you know Ms. Branka?

10 A. No way. I know who that person is. I had nothing to do with her.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. This person who was a witness, as far as this case is concerned,

13 was in Sarajevo before as an interpreter.

14 Q. Okay. Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, this -- this episode where 32

15 vehicles containing weapons were smuggled into Vogosca, first of all, how

16 far is Vogosca from your home in Rajlovac?

17 A. Well, if he went from Pale, he went a completely different way, as

18 if he went via Washington. Vogosca is perhaps four or five kilometres

19 away, perhaps even less. Well, yes, it is five kilometres away from

20 Rajlovac.

21 Q. Now, again, Mr. Krajisnik, as you will see in P1001, according to

22 General Kukanjac's report, 1.500 weapons were distributed to persons in

23 the municipality of Vogosca. Did -- Mr. Krajisnik, did Mr. Tintor ever

24 discuss with you this episode of which he was quite proud and which he

25 publicly revealed his -- his happiness over this event? Did he ever

Page 25321

1 discuss that with you or any other event relating to arming prior to the

2 beginning of the war?

3 A. He did not discuss it, Mr. Prosecutor. Had he discussed it, he

4 probably would have given weapons to my people from Zabrdje. They

5 wouldn't have got it from Rajlovac on the eve of the war.

6 On the map, I see that it couldn't go through Rajlovac at all. It

7 had to take a different route, via Kobilja Glava, if this was actually the

8 case, what he says.

9 Q. Let's turn to a different document, Mr. Krajisnik. It's found at

10 tab 119. This has an exhibit number already. This is P893, tab 3.

11 Mr. Krajisnik, this has exhibited in this court before. You have a copy

12 of it. This is a document from the 2nd Military District Command. It's

13 2nd of March, 1992. It's entitled "Hand-over of an automatic rifle of

14 7.62-millimetre calibre." It's to the command of the 1st Artillery

15 Battalion of the Anti-tank Battalion, and it is signed by General

16 Kukanjac. And it says in the relevant part, it says: "Based on the need

17 and current situation in the city of Sarajevo you have to issue to the

18 Territorial Defence Staff of Novo Sarajevo the following," and it

19 describes 250 automatic rifles of 7.62-millimetre calibre.

20 Again, very quickly, Mr. Krajisnik, Novo Sarajevo, how far --

21 first of all, that's the contiguous municipality to Novi Grad where

22 Rajlovac is located; that's correct, isn't it?

23 A. You know how far away that is? That's a city municipality, Novo

24 Sarajevo, and then Novi Grad, and then Rajlovac is after that. It would

25 be a good thing if you looked at the map. It's not nearby at all.

Page 25322

1 Q. All right. Well --

2 A. Perhaps 10 kilometres, 12.

3 Q. Okay. We'll take a look --

4 A. Far away from Rajlovac.

5 Q. We have the maps, Mr. Krajisnik. We can examine those at a later

6 time. In P1001, Mr. Krajisnik, again the annex to General Kukanjac's

7 report of March 20th, it indicates that 2.800 weapons had been distributed

8 prior to March the 20th, 1992.

9 Now, I'll ask you the same question, Mr. Krajisnik: In this

10 municipality, and it was very close to your municipality, were you aware

11 at all that arms had been distributed by the SDS or the JNA to members of

12 that particular municipality?

13 A. Well, I've told you that I don't know about any supplies of arms

14 from the Yugoslav People's Army except from Rajlovac. I only know when

15 they provided arms to Zabrdje and Sokolje from Rajlovac. And you can see

16 here automatic rifle 7.62. That is the Russian Kalashnikov. And that's

17 the difference between that and "automat," an automatic weapon. This is a

18 modern Russian rifle.

19 MR. HARMON: Pardon me, Your Honour. I'm going to be referring to

20 the 10th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, and if that could be

21 distributed. Your Honours, I'm going to be referring to page 6 in the

22 English, the first full paragraph on page 6 of the English. It is five

23 lines from the bottom of that paragraph, starting with the word

24 "Fortunately ..."

25 Mr. Krajisnik, for your benefit, that will be found on page 7 of

Page 25323

1 the B/C/S. That first full paragraph, about midway through. I'm going to

2 be referring to this portion of the Assembly session. And in this 10th

3 session of the Assembly, which was on the 11th of March, 1992,

4 Mr. Krajisnik, in this case Mr. Karadzic says, and I quote: "Fortunately,

5 we have not relied on those talks but have been putting in place the

6 prerequisites necessary for the security of the Serbian people in its

7 ethnic regions in BH to prevent them from leading us on. They did not

8 succeed in that because we did not omit to take all the steps necessary

9 for the protection of the Serbian people."

10 Now, you were present at that session, Mr. Krajisnik. When

11 Dr. Karadzic refers to putting in place the prerequisites necessary for

12 the security of the Serbian people and not omitting to take all necessary

13 steps for the protection of the Serbian people, what did you understand

14 Dr. Karadzic to be talking about on March the 11th, 1992?

15 A. Here he was talking about a document that the MPs did not want to

16 accept. And they didn't accept it at this session. I chaired the session

17 only in part. As far as I can remember, it was the vice-president who was

18 chairing it, because they imputed to me that I would be talking the MPs

19 into not accepting the document. So I spent that entire session resigned,

20 as I feel today while giving testimony to you.

21 Q. When you say you didn't chair that session, were you physically

22 present in that session?

23 A. I probably was present, yes. I'm not trying to say that I left

24 the hall, but I'm telling you what the point of the session was. So the

25 main point was the Brussels paper, not whether something was provided,

Page 25324

1 whatever. What he was saying here -- well, it's just talk in order to

2 sell this paper, this document. I don't know what he meant. Perhaps he

3 meant arming too. I have no idea.

4 Q. He's clearly not talking about, Mr. Krajisnik, just the talks,

5 because he starts his sentence by saying, "Fortunately, we have not relied

6 on those talks. We've taken other steps." My question to you is what

7 other steps was he talking about, Mr. Krajisnik?

8 A. The only thing we can do is find Karadzic and bring him here and

9 ask him. I think that's the only solution. There is no other solution.

10 Q. All right. Mr. Krajisnik --

11 A. I really don't know what steps he meant. How can I interpret

12 that? "Regionalisation," what did he mean? "Arming," whatever. I don't

13 know what he meant. But this is a debate that is supposed to calm people

14 down. Hundreds of things can be brought under this heading, believe me.

15 Of course, you're thinking about arming because the topic here today is

16 arming.

17 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, since these remarks were delivered on the

18 11th of March, let's take a look at tab 106, and we might get some insight

19 into what Dr. Karadzic was talking about when he said that --

20 A. All right.

21 Q. -- [Previous translation continues] ... was necessary for the

22 security of the Serbian people had been taken and all steps necessary for

23 their protection had been taken. You will find at tab 106 - this is P51 -

24 this is a document that's been exhibited on many occasions here,

25 Mr. Krajisnik. I specifically refer you to -- the Court, the Chamber, to

Page 25325

1 page 4 of the English, sub-part 5.

2 And, Mr. Krajisnik, that will be found in the B/C/S at page 4,

3 sub-part 5. It's at the bottom of the page.

4 In conjunction with that document, Mr. Krajisnik, I am going to

5 refer you also to tab 107, which is P1001. Mr. Krajisnik --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- you know this document?

8 A. Yes, I know this document. No problem. I know both.

9 Q. Okay. Now, this document, you'll see the first part of -- the

10 first sentence in page -- sub-part (5), it says: "The map and the key to

11 it show in great detail the volunteer units in the 2nd Military District

12 zone. In this regard, the following must be noted," and it goes on to

13 note that there are volunteer units that are not part of the JNA or TO,

14 comprised of 69.198 persons.

15 It further goes on to say in sub-part (f), it says that "The JNA

16 distributed 51.900 weapons (75 per cent) and the SDS 17.298 weapons."

17 In sub-part (g), in Sarajevo, it says: "To date, 300 automatic

18 weapons have been distributed to retired military officers in Sarajevo..."

19 Now, if we take a look as well, Mr. Krajisnik, at P1001, which is

20 found at tab 107, if you look at items 1 through 9, this is the key that

21 is being referred to by General Kukanjac at the beginning of his --

22 paragraph 5. And you can see the number of volunteers that are associated

23 with each of those municipalities in Sarajevo, including the municipality

24 of Novi Grad in Sarajevo. And based on General Kukanjac's report to his

25 superiors, you can see, Mr. Krajisnik, that a considerable number of

Page 25326

1 weapons had been distributed in the Sarajevo municipality, including the

2 municipality of Novi Grad.

3 I take it, Mr. Krajisnik, these are facts and events about which

4 you were completely unaware prior to the 12th of May, 1991 -- 1992; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes, you're right on that. But I can just tell you one

7 thing: Mr. Kukanjac is dead. But when the investigators asked him about

8 this report, his answer was, "This was written by people. I don't know

9 what this was all about. I just signed it." I cannot understand that he

10 knew about illegal distribution of weapons by the SDS. How could he

11 possibly know about distribution of arms by the SDS if that happened? It

12 is so logical. Allegedly people who dealt with security matters and who

13 worked for him wrote this.

14 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, let's take a look at the same page,

15 page 4 of the English. And in the B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, I want to refer

16 you to page 4 as well. I'm talking about sub-part (c) on page 4 of the

17 English. It's the second full paragraph. Mr. Krajisnik, it's at the top

18 of the page of page 4 and ends before sub-part (4). And this paragraph,

19 Mr. Krajisnik, describes some problems that the army is having with some

20 representatives of the Bosnian Serbs, but on the whole it says -- and it

21 says: "As a whole, the SDS leadership and the Serbian people accept the

22 army, protect it whenever it is actually possible, join combat and

23 volunteer units, cooperate with the commands as much as possible, treat

24 strategic war materiel in a fairly responsible manner, et cetera."

25 And the last paragraph in that sub-part (c) says: "In this

Page 25327

1 regard, the commander of the 2nd Military District -" that's General

2 Kukanjac, of course - "will soon be talking to the leaders of the Serbian

3 people (Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, Krajisnik, Djukic)."

4 A. Would you just tell me what page this is? I can't find it. I do

5 know that it exists, though.

6 Q. Page 4.

7 JUDGE ORIE: B/C/S page 4.


9 Q. I thought I had directed you there, Mr. Krajisnik, but take a look

10 at page 4 in the B/C/S.

11 A. Page 6. Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Page 4, not page 6.

13 A. I got a bit upset with you, but please forgive me.

14 Q. It's page 4, Mr. Krajisnik. If you take a look --

15 A. I found it. I found it.

16 Q. Now --

17 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I invite my learned friend to read

18 the sentence he omitted, including the words in brackets.

19 MR. HARMON: I tried to cover that by -- at the beginning of the

20 question by saying that there is some criticism of the -- of the army

21 through -- criticism of the SDS by the army. That's what I tried to

22 capture. I don't particularly care to read it. This has been exhibited a

23 number of times, Mr. Krajisnik is familiar with the document.

24 MR. JOSSE: I've drawn it to Mr. Krajisnik's attention. It's just

25 arguable, on reading the English, that the answer -- the words "in this

Page 25328

1 regard" relate to the sentence that's been omitted.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, before you answer any question, you

3 are specifically invited to include in your reading the last three lines

4 of the first paragraph of page 4 which is between brackets, which precedes

5 the announcement of talks to be held with, among others, you. You've seen

6 that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, next question to the witness.


10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, did you have that meeting with General Kukanjac

11 that he foreshadowed in this document?

12 A. I think that there never was such a meeting. I was with

13 Mr. Kukanjac once. I talked to him there, but I don't know who all the

14 attendees were. And I don't know what the time was. March. Well, maybe.

15 Just before the war started, or was it after the war started? I don't

16 know exactly. I did have a meeting with Mr. Kukanjac once. Karadzic was

17 there, I know, but I don't know if the rest were there. I cannot

18 guarantee that.

19 As for the thing up here that the Presiding Judge warned me about,

20 all of this is right. There were different statements in the Assembly,

21 Chetnik ideology and so on and so forth, but that was not the prevalent

22 feature. It is true that the army was criticised, yes. I mean,

23 unfoundedly, but people criticised it. They wanted a Serb army; it's not

24 a Serb army, it's a communist, and so on and so forth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I am looking at the clock.

Page 25329

1 MR. HARMON: This is a perfectly good time to break, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until 20 minutes past four.

3 --- Recess taken at 3.58 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I was informed there was something you had

6 on your mind, but I don't know whether this would be the moment to raise

7 it or that you'd rather keep it for a later moment.

8 MR. JOSSE: I'm in Your Honours' hands. It relates briefly to the

9 destruction material, and it's simply this and I appreciate that this may

10 be viewed as somewhat impertinent. It's not intended to be, but it may

11 help -- it would help the Defence if the Chamber are prepared to tell us

12 why the Chamber are anxious to have this material. Of course I'm not

13 expecting an answer now. It's simply because there are various technical

14 objections that we could take. Mr. Krajisnik has objections of slightly

15 more substance, but as much guidance as the Chamber are prepared to give

16 us would really be helpful.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it.

18 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll inform you.

20 Mr. Harmon.


22 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, we ended the session examining P51 and P1001,

23 General Kukanjac's March 20th document, his report to his superiors. I'd

24 like to turn your attention to tabs 122 and 123.

25 MR. HARMON: And if I could get an exhibit number on, first of

Page 25330

1 all, tab 122.

2 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P1215, Your Honours.

3 MR. HARMON: And an exhibit number for tab 123.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, these are documents that are very short, and we

8 will start with P1215 and we'll turn to P1216 because they're related

9 documents.

10 P1215 is a document that is issued from the command of the 10th

11 Corps. It is dated the 23rd of April, 1992. In other words, it's beyond

12 the time of General Kukanjac's report. And it is to the 2nd Military

13 District Command. It is signed by the assistant commander for logistics,

14 it looks like Colonel Grujo Boric, and it says that: "The Serbian

15 municipality of Bosanska Krupa ask the command of the 530th logistics base

16 and the 10th Corps for help in establishing units and providing them with

17 quartermaster material supplies and equipment and materiel (primarily

18 weapons and ammunition).

19 "Bearing in mind the order of the Federal Secretary for National

20 Defence -" and it gives a number and a date - "and the current political

21 situation in the territory of this municipality, we believe that they

22 should be granted certain material supplies, which would be issued by the

23 530th POB."

24 If you take a look at tab 123, this is dated the following day.

25 It is from the 2nd Military District Command. It's dated the 24th of

Page 25331

1 April, to the 10th Corps Command and the 530th Logistics Brigade

2 personally to the commander, and it's signed by General Kukanjac. And it

3 relates to the previous document, as you can see, in the -- in the

4 heading, regarding the particular telegram, which it identifies by

5 number. And it says: "Bearing in mind the urgency of implementing the

6 task of establishing the TO units of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska

7 Krupa, and in accordance with the order of the Federal Secretary for

8 National Defence, strictly confidential number 359-1, dated 21 February,

9 1992, arms, ammunition, and equipment for the newly established TO units

10 in the SO Bosanska Krupa are to be issued from surpluses in units of the

11 10th Corps and the available stock of the 530th logistics base."

12 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, this, first of all, refers to an order of the

13 Federal Secretariat of National Defence. Do you know what that particular

14 order was?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know what kind of order it is.

16 Q. All right. Were you aware, sir, that General Kukanjac, after the

17 report that he issued found at P51 was continuing to issue supplies to

18 Serbian units, in this case in the municipality of Bosanska Krupa?

19 A. I didn't know of any of these incidents. If I might just add to

20 what you said. You skipped one word in what you've just read; TO. That

21 means Territorial Defence. I don't know whether it matters or not.

22 Q. No, I -- I read it literally what it said, and TO, what it means

23 is identified in the English version. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

24 A. I'm sorry, then.

25 Q. Now, let me turn to the exhibit that's found in tab 124.

Page 25332

1 MR. HARMON: This needs a number as well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: P1217, Your Honour.


5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, this is a document dated the 24th of April, 1992,

6 from the 2nd Military District Command. It is a document that is signed

7 by General Kukanjac once again. It's directed to the Federal Secretariat

8 of National Defence, the technical administration, and it reads, the first

9 paragraph: "We have received from the Ministry of the Interior of the

10 Serbian Republic of BH a request -" it gives the number - "dated 23 April,

11 1992, for materiel and technical equipment to be used by the special

12 purposes police detachment of the Banja Luka Security Services Centre.

13 The following equipment has been requested ..." and it identifies in the

14 subsequent pages and in this page equipment that includes a helicopter, an

15 M18 transport helicopter, armoured vehicles of various sorts including

16 combat armoured vehicle. If we go down to weapons, starting at number 9

17 you'll see a variety of weapons, including machine-guns, automatic rifles

18 of various calibre, pistols, et cetera. If you -- all the way between

19 item number 9 and item number 29 are various forms of weapons or

20 explosives or grenades and the like.

21 And at the end of this document, Mr. Krajisnik, General Kukanjac

22 informed the Federal Secretariat of National Defence - and I'm referring

23 to the paragraph directly above the signature block: "We think that the

24 request should be met primarily with equipment that cannot be found on the

25 market and in quantities that can cover the most essential needs."

Page 25333

1 Mr. Krajisnik, you said you didn't know that the JNA was arming

2 the Bosnian Serbs. In this case, this is a request that the JNA received

3 from the minister of interior of the Serbian Republic of BH for

4 considerable logistical equipment and arms. Were you aware of this

5 request by the minister of the interior?

6 A. I was not aware of it. I was not informed. He was able to do

7 that on his own without letting me know. And war had been going on for

8 already 20 days by this date. And from this I see that the JNA wasn't

9 providing weapons except maybe on an individual basis, because from this

10 we see that they didn't have any weapons. The police, I mean, if they

11 were requesting this amount. And war had been going on for 20 days by

12 this time.

13 Plus I want to say another thing. On the 7th of April an order

14 was issued by the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina to besiege all

15 barracks of the JNA. They proclaimed the JNA to be a hostile army, an

16 occupier, and of course the civilian authorities of Republika Srpska were

17 the only authorities on which JNA could rely for support and equipment.

18 And by the way, an enormous amount of equipment and even factories

19 and plants and entire barracks remained in Visoko, Vitez, and other areas

20 that ended up in Muslim hands when the war began.

21 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions, Your Honour, on this

22 topic. Mr. Krajisnik, thank you. I'm going to yield the floor to

23 Mr. Tieger.


25 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

Page 25334

1 JUDGE ORIE: I have one, perhaps, Mr. Harmon, before we continue.

2 I don't know whether it should be resolved by asking Mr. Krajisnik, but at

3 the end of this document reference is made to a confidential order dated

4 the 30th of December, 1992, which is a bit surprising if the document

5 itself dates from the 24th of April, 1992. And if you look at the

6 semi-last page. If you'll have any explanation or whether this is a

7 mistake. I have not compared with the other documents where confidential

8 orders are mentioned as well, and I do not have any recollection whether

9 such orders, confidential orders, are already in evidence, yes or no. If

10 you'd please pay some attention to that and inform the Chamber.

11 MR. HARMON: I will. And if I may have just one moment, Your

12 Honour, maybe I can reconcile that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: In the original it's on the -- in the B/C/S version

14 it's on the top of page 4, where it also says the 30th of December, 1992.

15 I thought perhaps it would be a typo in the translation, but it seems not

16 to be that.

17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I may direct Your Honours' attention

18 to tab 123.


20 MR. HARMON: It appears to be a typo. That would be my

21 observation. But if you look in 123, in the upper left-hand corner -

22 that's Prosecution Exhibit 1216 - this is from the same author, General

23 Kukanjac, it has a strictly confidential number of 31-103-40-1.


25 MR. HARMON: The document that's before -- that's 1217 is

Page 25335

1 31-103-41.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's from --

3 MR. HARMON: So it appears to be the same day.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but nevertheless, the December 1992, at the

5 very end of P1217, I can't --

6 MR. HARMON: I can then direct Your Honours' attention to 1216.


8 MR. HARMON: The bottom of the paragraph. 1216.

9 JUDGE ORIE: 1216.

10 MR. HARMON: You'll see the last line refers to a strictly

11 confidential number of 30 December -- a document 2268-1, dated 30

12 December, 1991.


14 MR. HARMON: And at the bottom of 1217, page 3, it also refers to

15 strictly confidential number 2268-1, dated 30 December, 1992. So it

16 appears that the 2 is a typographical error.

17 JUDGE ORIE: In the original, you say.

18 MR. HARMON: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That, at least at first, it sounds reasonable. If

20 there's any issue there, I'll hear from you, Mr. Stewart, or Mr. Josse.

21 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Mr. Krajisnik, thank you.

23 MR. TIEGER: We'll make this transition as efficient as possible,

24 Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, just for our information, do you intend

Page 25336

1 to rely also on Mr. Harmon's bundle or could we leave that tomorrow,

2 because --

3 MR. TIEGER: You may, Your Honour.


5 MR. TIEGER: And I --

6 MR. JOSSE: Is there an index with the bundle that has just been

7 handed out?

8 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact it's distributed.

9 MR. JOSSE: It varies. Perhaps I could have it on the terms I've

10 agreed with Mr. Harmon.

11 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krajisnik.

13 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Tieger.

14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, as you will recall during the course of your

15 examination-in-chief, you were asked and answered several questions

16 concerning paramilitaries, including the last two times that I recall

17 would be on the 22nd of May when there was a question about Arkan at

18 approximately page 23, beginning line 24, and you indicated that from this

19 distance everybody thinks that Arkan was well known. Then you continued a

20 little bit about meeting him briefly in Banja Luka and said that, "As a

21 matter of fact, I can say that he was an anonymous person." And then on

22 the 24th of May, at page 86, line 15, in response to a more general

23 question about paramilitaries, you stated, "I was deeply against any

24 paramilitaries. I have no further comment to make." So I'd like to ask

25 you some questions about paramilitary or volunteer groups.

Page 25337

1 First of all, with respect to volunteer groups or paramilitary

2 groups, either from outside Bosnia-Herzegovina or inside, such as Arkan's

3 men or Seselj's group, had you heard of and were you aware of these groups

4 in 1992?

5 A. Well, we were facing the problem of reports from the army that

6 certain paramilitary units were in existence. Let me just explain.

7 Q. No. I think we'll move a little quicker if we can, to the extent

8 possible, respond yes or no. If my subsequent questions require --

9 A. I cannot answer with yes or no. I can just tell you that we

10 discussed the problem, but I have to tell you also why we discussed it.

11 Q. No, you don't have to tell me that unless you're asked that,

12 Mr. Krajisnik, and then if you want to add that to the end of your

13 testimony, you can, but please listen to my questions and try to answer

14 it.

15 Okay. Now, I understand from your answer that you were aware of

16 reports from the army concerning certain paramilitary groups. First of

17 all, let me make it even more specific: Were you aware of the existence

18 of Arkan's group or Seselj's group in 1991 and 1992?

19 A. 1991?

20 Q. Or 1992.

21 A. Well, in 1991 there was no war, so I'm wondering if there's a

22 mistake in your question. In 1991, 1992, I knew about paramilitary units.

23 We -- we didn't know whose paramilitary units they were. We discussed the

24 problem of paramilitary units.

25 Q. And you've made that clear in responses to two questions. Let me

Page 25338

1 make it even more specific: Arkan's group, did you know of their

2 existence in 1991? Yes or no.

3 A. I don't know whether I knew. I told you I -- in 1995, I met Arkan

4 for the first time and spent five minutes with him. I heard from

5 Mrs. Plavsic that she had been there, that she kissed with him. That's

6 all I know. But that's all I know about Arkan.

7 Q. Okay. So you knew of the existence of Arkan and his group in 1992

8 but only from that reference by Mrs. Plavsic that you just mentioned; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Well, no. From those two incidents I heard about Arkan, I didn't

11 know what kind of unit he had, what they were doing. It's only here and

12 later, generally speaking, in 1995 and 1997 and once I came here, that I

13 learnt a lot of other things.

14 Q. I'm not going to do this kind of explaining too often but maybe

15 it's helpful here. You'll probably notice that I didn't ask you precisely

16 what kind of unit he had or what they were doing. We really will find it

17 easier, I think, if you listen to the question and just try to answer the

18 question I've asked.

19 Now, what about Seselj's group? Were you aware of their existence

20 in 1991?

21 A. I heard the Serb Radical Party bragging that they were sending in

22 volunteers. I heard that, but I never saw them, and I didn't know whether

23 there were any. But I can tell you what volunteers were. There's a

24 difference between volunteers and paramilitary units.

25 Q. What do you consider the difference between volunteers and

Page 25339

1 paramilitary units coming from outside the territory of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina?

3 A. It's very simple, and I'll put it very briefly. Serbs in Serbia

4 did not easily respond to mobilisation calls, and a loophole was found in

5 the law; namely, that people could volunteer to be mobilised. So they did

6 not fall under official mobilisation, they were mobilised as volunteers.

7 And certain parties, certain political parties, helped rally these

8 volunteers, and they were supposed to be under the command of the JNA,

9 whereas paramilitary units were self-styled warriors who were not

10 officially organised, who came in to wage war, and it happened maybe that

11 somebody from a particular municipality invited them. But even with

12 respect to those units who had come on their own, of their own accord,

13 even with respect to them, we asked that they be put under JNA command.

14 Q. Okay. And with respect to the terminology you've just used, did

15 you consider Arkan's group or -- or Seselj's group to be volunteers or

16 paramilitaries?

17 A. Well, I didn't give them any thought at all. I only heard that

18 certain political parties sent in volunteers. They gathered groups, got

19 them mobilised, and they were coming in under the command of the JNA. But

20 I wasn't thinking about Arkan at all. He was in BH on that one occasion

21 when Mrs. Plavsic met with him, and after that, as far as I know, he

22 wasn't in Republika Srpska.

23 Q. And I think your answer to earlier questions probably embraced a

24 response to this question, but I just want to be clear. Did you know

25 whether Arkan's group or Seselj's group had been involved in activities in

Page 25340

1 Croatia on behalf of Serbs in 1991?

2 MR. JOSSE: I'm interrupting for this reason, Your Honour: The

3 last answer Mr. Krajisnik gave, he really only answered the question in

4 relation to Arkan. That's not surprising because it was two questions in

5 one. My learned friend's done the same again. He really needs to

6 separate Arkan's group from Seselj's group so we get a clear answer from

7 the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any problem in separating?

9 MR. TIEGER: Of course not, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


12 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you heard the exchange, so we'll break it down.

13 Did you know whether Arkan's group was involved in the war in Croatia on

14 behalf of Serbs?

15 A. I only knew that the Yugoslav People's Army was involved in the

16 Republic of Serb Krajina, that is, in Croatia. And I know that some

17 volunteers were active also, but I thought they were under the JNA. I

18 didn't know to which group they belonged or where they had come from.

19 Q. And the same question with respect to Seselj's group. Same

20 answer?

21 A. The same, exactly the same, as far as the Republic of Serb Krajina

22 and Croatia is concerned. I know of some -- Captain Dragan, but I don't

23 know what kind of unit he had.

24 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to your comment in your

25 examination-in-chief about Arkan's anonymity, I just wanted to take a

Page 25341

1 quick look at tabs 146 and 147.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Numbers to be assigned to them, I take it,

3 Mr. Tieger?

4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, tab 146 should be -- would be?

6 THE REGISTRAR: P1218, Your Honour.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is there a translation of this?

8 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. And 147, Madam Registrar, would

9 be?


11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, about translations. I see in the book

12 -- Mr. Tieger, I -- 146, I do not see any B/C/S translation.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there's no translation for 148

14 either.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Well, we have not come to 148, but --

16 MR. JOSSE: I don't know whether Mr. Krajisnik meant 147.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I don't know either.

18 MR. JOSSE: Although 148 seems to have a translation problem as

19 well possibly.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we have two problems now. Let's wait for

21 the third one.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, first of all, one can be completely

23 confident that if there are tabs that do not contain translations, they

24 will almost certainly be the first ones to which you turn in the binder.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's good to --

Page 25342

1 MR. TIEGER: Secondly -- and secondly, I think it's possible to

2 proceed at this moment with those documents. If it becomes impossible,

3 we'll try another approach, but if the Court will permit me to make that

4 effort, we'll see how we proceed. And of course we'll obtain a

5 subsequent --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. First of all, we have allowed now and

7 then the Defence to do a similar thing, and of course it very much depends

8 on how important the context is. I take it that both Mr. Stewart and

9 Mr. Josse are alert on any --

10 MR. JOSSE: The only problem is of course we haven't had a chance

11 to read this document.


13 MR. JOSSE: I suppose if Your Honour would give me two minutes to

14 scan it, but --

15 MR. TIEGER: That's not a problem, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we can scan it as well.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger is punishing me now for

18 not having learned English. He's right on that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You can punish him now and then for not having

20 learned B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, so ...

21 MR. TIEGER: Having generally familiarised yourselves - and I'm

22 referring, of course, to my learned friends and the Chamber - would it be

23 helpful if I addressed everyone's attention to the particular passages in

24 question resulting?

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it it's the bottom of the second page where

Page 25343

1 you mainly are focusing on, and the top of the third page.

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. It's actually one portion on the

3 first page, the bottom of that, and -- correct.


5 MR. TIEGER: And --

6 MR. JOSSE: I'll listen to the question, if I may, and reserve my

7 position, Your Honour.


9 MR. TIEGER: No, I appreciate that. I just didn't think that

10 represented a change in position generally, but I understand that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: At least now, Mr. Josse --

12 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- knows now what to object against --

14 MR. TIEGER: Right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- if it's after the question, then.


17 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, and I appreciate the fact that there is no

18 translation in front of you, so I'll try to be as clear and brief as

19 possible. Tab 146 contains an article by The Los Angeles Times on

20 December 16, 1991. It refers to -- in the fourth paragraph of that

21 article, to Serbian guerrillas in occupied Croatia doling out favours and

22 boasting of actions in which they liquidated returning Croats. And on the

23 second page, after a longer discussion --

24 MR. JOSSE: One observation: Please could my learned friend go

25 slowly so this is accurately and fully translated.

Page 25344

1 MR. TIEGER: That's a good point. Will do.

2 Q. On the second page, at the fifth paragraph from the bottom, the

3 article states: "That view is underscored by Arkan, a renowned guerrilla

4 leader and reputed Belgrade underworld figure whose elite Serbian Tigers

5 claim to fight Fascism and take no prisoners."

6 And then the second article is dated January 4, 1992. That's at

7 tab 147. It's from the Associated Press, and in its third paragraph it

8 states: "As Croatian and federal commanders signed the latest truce

9 Thursday evening, one of Serbia's many camouflage-clad heroes, known by

10 his nom de guerre Arkan, was on prime time Serbian TV news. 'We should

11 not delude ourselves,' said the man called 'the Roman centurian' by an

12 adoring Serbian press. 'The cease-fire results only in the enemy arming

13 and preparing themselves better.'"

14 Then two paragraphs down, the article continues: "The war in

15 secessionist Croatia has brought fame to men like Arkan whose real name is

16 Zarko Raznjatovic." We know that's not the correct first name. "He is a

17 Belgrade cafe owner who heads the Serbian Volunteer Guard, a force of

18 murky origin and size."

19 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, isn't it -- don't these articles - and I don't

20 think there's much dispute that they aren't the only two articles written

21 about Arkan during that time - reflect his notoriety not only in the

22 region but indeed worldwide and that virtually everyone in the region knew

23 about Arkan at that time?

24 A. No. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Tieger, with all due respect, I

25 am not among the number of people who knew Arkan the way you describe him.

Page 25345

1 I didn't know any of this. I've read it, but I was not informed, and I

2 could not watch TV Belgrade in January in Sarajevo, if that is Serb

3 television.

4 Q. Well, if I could ask you to turn to 154, tab 154. That's a very

5 short article from Oslobodjenje on 25 March, 1992.

6 MR. HARMON: It also needs a number, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1220, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


11 Q. P1220 is an article from Oslobodjenje on 25 March, 1992, the title

12 of the article is "Seselj's and Arkan's Men Arrive," and it begins:

13 "Rumours that groups of the so-called Seselj's and Arkan's men were

14 arriving in the Banja Luka region have been confirmed today. Members of

15 those units were seen in Banja Luka and we have unofficially learned that

16 they were deployed along the Krajina border lines," and it goes on to talk

17 about a confirmation, perhaps ambiguous confirmation, by Mr. Cavic.

18 MR. JOSSE: I'm far from certain that Mr. Krajisnik could find the

19 place, and in addition to that, if one looks at the B/C/S, it's almost

20 illegible.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find it. Can you just tell

22 me where this is in the original? I'll look it up straight away.


24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I believe if you look to the left column -- it's a

25 small article. Far left column, second article.

Page 25346

1 A. Yes. "Seselj's Men Arrived," yes. Yes, I've seen it.

2 Afterwards. Oh, yes, yes. Thank you very much to the interpreters.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's so short, perhaps you'd read all of it,

4 Mr. Tieger, unless --

5 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour. I'll continue from --

6 JUDGE ORIE: The beginning we have had, so then we continue with

7 "ambiguously ..."

8 MR. TIEGER: "Ambiguously, this has been confirmed today by

9 Nikodin Cavic, president of Seselj's SRS of BiH with its seat in Banja

10 Luka. Its leadership has moved today to its new premises in the building

11 of the Municipal Assembly, the entrance from Marsal Tito Street. He did

12 not specify, however, the size of those 'forces' or where they had been

13 deployed but neither did he deny their presence and their dispatching in

14 the direction of Bosanski Brod, Travnik, Jajce, and elsewhere in the Banja

15 Luka region. Who had invited Arkan's and Seselj's men to come over here

16 and why are they now in this part of the Bosnian Krajina?"

17 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, among other things we can see in that article

18 that there's no explanation of who Seselj's -- who Seselj is, who Arkan

19 is, or what those groups are about, which would appear to suggest that it

20 was written and disseminated -- and it was written by someone confident

21 that the readers would know full well who those groups are. And I ask

22 again if it wasn't the case that by early 1992 Arkan and Seselj and their

23 forces were well known across Bosnia and Herzegovina and indeed the Balkan

24 region?

25 A. Well, that is not correct, but just look at the next article, the

Page 25347

1 three municipalities in Vlasenica. Until I came here, I didn't know that

2 there were three municipalities in Vlasenica. Just down here. It says

3 that there were three municipalities formed in Vlasenica. I didn't know

4 about that either. I never read this article.

5 Q. I'm sure there are many things to which we could point in any

6 particular newspaper article, Mr. Krajisnik, about which there would be no

7 expectation you would be aware. So I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't

8 deflect from the question I've asked.

9 This article talks about Arkan in a way that seems to suggest that

10 all of the readers will know exactly who those groups are, and that's why

11 I'm asking you, isn't true that everybody knew who Arkan and Seselj were

12 and who -- and what their forces were about?

13 A. I don't know whether others knew. I knew of Mr. Seselj. As for

14 Arkan, I told you what I knew. And you gave me an example here which

15 shows that I could have known of Arkan, but I'm telling you underneath

16 that there is this piece of news that I also could have been aware of

17 about the three municipalities in Vlasenica, but I hadn't read that either

18 and I didn't know about it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, let's not -- let's not try to explain

20 everything by logic. This is not an invitation to ignore logics, but we

21 have not seen that article. What Mr. Tieger puts to you is that the news

22 is that they arrived without any further explanation as to who they are.

23 Might well be that in the next article there was some other news that you

24 were not aware of. The issue is - and that's the question Mr. Tieger puts

25 to you - it -- as he says, it appears that upon the news of their arrival

Page 25348

1 in Banja Luka, there was no need for the readers to receive further

2 explanation as to who they were, and you're invited to -- whether or not

3 you would agree that the text presumes knowledge of the average reader of

4 what these groups are. Please proceed -- please comment, and if you have

5 any further comment apart from the comment you gave already.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If an average reader read this, he

7 can infer that these were - how should I put this? - units that were

8 against the Muslims, probably since they were in the Krajina. Now, this

9 is Oslobodjenje, so this is a message to the Muslims. But I'm telling

10 you, I never read this article. So if this is an example of me knowing a

11 bit more about Arkan, I would have read the article underneath too.

12 MR. JOSSE: I do ask again that these two individuals are split up

13 for the purpose of these questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think Mr. Krajisnik answered already that he

15 knew Mr. Seselj and that he was not acquainted with Mr. Arkan. And I also

16 -- I think that as far as their groups are concerned that he had no

17 specific knowledge of those groups. He -- I think in his answer he very

18 much focused on the persons rather than the groups.

19 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely, Your Honour. That's why I didn't

20 interrupt at the time. I'm just asking that that be done from now on.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you're invited to always make a clear

22 distinction between Seselj -- Mr. Seselj and Mr. Arkan and between their

23 groups. Please proceed.

24 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

25 Q. And for the purpose of clarification, Mr. Krajisnik, you heard the

Page 25349

1 Judge's synopsis of those earlier answers, consistent with my recollection

2 as well, but is that accurate; that is, that you knew Mr. Seselj, you were

3 not acquainted with Mr. Arkan, and you have no specific knowledge of those

4 groups?

5 A. I was aware of the whole problem with Seselj, how they threw him

6 out and that the Muslims were afraid of him and how he was revered and --

7 I'm talking about Seselj. Oh, you're asking me about Arkan.

8 Q. No. You heard what I asked you. I asked you that very -- I

9 recited what the Court had summarised as your previous answer and just

10 asked you if that was right. I didn't ask you for everything you knew

11 about Seselj at the time.

12 A. Did I know of Seselj? Is that what you're saying?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to get things clear.

14 I think you're -- you testified, Mr. Krajisnik, that you knew

15 Mr. Seselj, and you added to that that you knew about the -- the whole

16 problem with Mr. Seselj and how they threw him out.

17 Did you know about any group, whether volunteers or

18 paramilitaries, that operated under, well, let's say Mr. Seselj's flag or

19 Mr. Seselj's name?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes. I've already

21 said that he reduced this. They had some kind of insignia and whatever,

22 but they were under the army of Republika Srpska in Sarajevo during the

23 war, as far as I know.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact we're now talking about

25 the 25th of March, 1992. At least, Mr. Tieger, that's how I understood

Page 25350

1 it, your question to relate to the moment of --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I don't

3 know about that date, but in the war, yes. At the Jewish cemetery in

4 Sarajevo there was a unit that called themselves the Chetnik unit, but

5 they were under the army.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was after March, I take it. After

7 March, 1992.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Line 9. It is not

10 "reduced" but "recruited."

11 JUDGE ORIE: So in your terminology there were volunteers rather

12 than paramilitaries. The same question now for any group under the --

13 under the flag or under the name of Mr. Arkan. That is, were you aware,

14 late March of 1992, of such a group to exist?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not aware of any of that

16 except for Bijeljina. Well, I didn't know about Bijeljina, but I knew

17 later on the basis of reports. I didn't know.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when you referred to troops at the Jewish

19 cemetery under the Chetnik unit, as you called them. Did you consider

20 them to be Arkan's men or Seselj's men, or did you --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Seselj's, Seselj's. They were

22 members of his party. But they were under the army, under the command of

23 the army, that is.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 25351

1 Q. And taking -- moving from the Court's question about late March,

2 1992, at any point in 1992 were you aware of groups operating under the

3 flag or name of Arkan operating in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

4 A. I did not know about that, although I heard some conversations

5 here. I didn't know about this. This was completely unknown to me that

6 that was that.

7 Q. What paramilitary or volunteer groups did you know about that were

8 operating in Bosnia and Herzegovina - and that is Serbian paramilitary or

9 volunteer groups - in 1992?

10 A. I didn't know anything specific, but I told you the army was

11 saying at some meeting, "We have units that are not under anybody's

12 command but under the municipal authorities," and orders were being

13 issued. I didn't know of a unit. I mean, if somebody were to mention it

14 to me, perhaps I would say, yes, I heard of that unit. I mentioned that

15 thing in Herzegovina, Karadjordje, if you remember. I heard of that.

16 Q. Let's turn to tab 136.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this is a document we've seen before.

18 It's P529, tab 463. It's a strictly confidential report dated July 28,

19 1992, by then Colonel Tolimir.

20 Q. And Mr. Krajisnik, at the very first paragraph of that document,

21 Colonel Tolimir lists or specifies a number of such groups, including the

22 Arkanovci, Arkan's men; Seseljovci, Seselj's men; Captain Dragan's

23 commandos; Captain Oliver's commandos; Carli's men; Jovic's men; White

24 Eagles; the Wolves, and so on. Now, looking at those specified groups,

25 were you aware of the existence of those groups and their operation in --

Page 25352

1 on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?

2 A. I will tell you who I never heard of. Never heard of Oliver's

3 commandos, Carli's men, Suva Rebra, "Smoked Ribs," never heard of that.

4 Heard of White Eagles, Arkanovci, Seseljovci. This Captain Dragan, I

5 heard of him but in Republika Srpska Krajina. But not as units, not as

6 units taking part. And I never received this information. See, I even

7 looked at the list of persons this was copied to: The president of the

8 Presidency, the Prime Minister, and the Main Staff, but never mind.

9 Q. Okay. Now --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we take it one by one, because Mr. Tieger is

11 invited to -- so you said never heard of Oliver's commandos, Carli's men,

12 the Smoked Ribs, and then heard of White Eagles.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you please repeat the others which you --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Wolves. I heard of the Wolves.

16 I mean generally speaking in the war. Beli Orlovi, the White Eagles, and

17 Jovicevci is one and the same thing.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you hear of any of the others? Because

19 the question is now --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said during the war --

21 during the war, generally speaking, as a concept, I mean if there was

22 Arkan, there was Arkanovci, but I did not hear that they were there.

23 Seseljovci, I heard of that. Commandos of Captain Dragan; I heard of

24 Captain Dragan, that he was in the Serb Krajina. Vukovi, the Wolves,

25 probably the Wolves from Prnjavor. That's probably what is meant here.

Page 25353

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you said during the war, the question was

2 limited to 1992. Do you say I heard of those in 1992, or would it --

3 would it also have been later?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, really, with all goodwill, I

5 don't know when I heard of the White Eagles, but like Seselj's men, they

6 were recruited because he had his party, and then volunteers were sent to

7 be under the JNA. Even in 1991. But under the JNA. I don't think that

8 they were in our army, but here I see that they say that they were, so I

9 don't know.

10 There was this problem of paramilitary formations. That we

11 discussed. That I know.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


14 Q. In the sixth paragraph down on that first page, Mr. Krajisnik,

15 Colonel Tolimir writes that: "One can conclude without reservations that

16 they -" well, that these groups - "are the genocidal element among the

17 Serbian people."

18 Do you have any reason to disagree with that assessment?

19 A. No, tell me where this is. Is this on page 1? I haven't found

20 it. And if it's not too much trouble, can you tell me where it is.

21 Q. Page 1 of the B/C/S --

22 A. Oh, yes. Yes. I beg your pardon. Yes, I found it.

23 I think that this part of the sentence is certainly correct, that

24 many paramilitary formations had a strong hatred towards non-Serbs, and

25 they were inclined towards crime. Now, whether this has to do with

Page 25354

1 genocide or not, I cannot say, and that is why we strove for having them

2 under the command of the military or, rather, those who were striving were

3 those under whose jurisdiction this was. But I was present at such a

4 meeting when the Main Staff complained about these problems in

5 municipalities. And also that the morale is poor -- or, rather, that

6 there were some people with poor moral qualities, whereas on the other

7 hand there were some honourable people too.

8 Q. And you were also present at the meeting of the Presidency on June

9 9th when the decision was issued banning the establishment and activities

10 of such groups which are not under the central command of the army and the

11 police; right?

12 A. I did attend one such meeting when the military made a report that

13 they had a problem with paramilitary units, and it was said in very strict

14 terms that everybody had to be placed under army command and all other

15 units have to be banned. I don't know whether that was that meeting that

16 you are referring to, but I remember that meeting, and I remember being

17 happy with the conclusion.

18 Q. Indeed, if you'll turn to tabs 126 and 127 -- I see there's no

19 B/C/S, but this was an original English disseminated by the president of

20 the Presidency.

21 MR. TIEGER: They will need a number, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 126 will be Exhibit P1221.

24 Tab 127 will be Exhibit P1222.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 25355


2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I just made reference to the decision of the

3 Presidency on June 9, 1992, and, if necessary or useful to you, I'll be

4 happy to show you that particular decision, which I know we've seen before

5 in the course of this case.

6 Tab 126 is --

7 A. I am inclined to believe everything the Prosecutor says, and

8 please write it down as my cooperation with you.

9 Q. Tab 126 contains a decision in English stating that the president

10 -- Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at its

11 session - and it recites the decision in English with three paragraphs,

12 some further elaboration. And then tab 127 contains a letter to the

13 Secretary-General, Dr. Boutros-Ghali on June 13, 1992, informing him about

14 what Dr. Karadzic calls, "Our latest official decision to disown all

15 paramilitary groups that are not ready to be under our political control."

16 And for your benefit, that letter continues: "As you can see, we

17 are trying to stop the tragedy of ethnic conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina at

18 different relevant levels." It states, "The enclosed decision is in

19 accordance with our energetic efforts to stop the war as soon as

20 possible," and then expresses appreciation for the UN's peacekeeping role.

21 I wanted to provide that backdrop, Mr. Krajisnik, because I wanted

22 to ask you why the Bosnian Serb leadership would incorporate within its

23 military forces groups of people with at least violent criminal

24 motivations and tendencies towards non-Serbs, if not genocidal tendencies.

25 A. I'll give you a very simple answer as to what we believed: Every

Page 25356

1 free man in the war, unless under somebody's command, is free to commit

2 illegal acts. If he is placed under somebody's command, that same person

3 can act in a disciplined manner and execute orders. The problem lies not

4 in the man but whether somebody has command over him or he is acting on

5 his own impulses. If you ask me, such people should have been placed in

6 army units. And let me tell you, the -- what Tolimir wrote, those people

7 should have been either expelled or placed under army command. That's

8 what the army should have done. Plavsic, Karadzic or Koljevic were not

9 the ones who were supposed to do that. Why didn't he place those

10 paramilitary units under his command? There was no other armed force that

11 was capable of doing that. I don't understand the letter that he is

12 addressing to somebody else when it's their own jurisdiction. Why didn't

13 he expel them?

14 As for the 13th of June, if you remember, on that date Mr. Subotic

15 wrote instructions that everybody had to act in accordance with Geneva

16 Conventions. That was given to every individual soldier. And it was not

17 a Presidency session that was held. Instead, Mr. Subotic and Mr. Karadzic

18 wrote that instruction individually, and it was published in the Official

19 Gazette. It was given to every single soldier, and that's why Karadzic

20 wrote that letter.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'll be obviously moving on, but we're

22 getting close to the --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so am I.

24 MR. TIEGER: -- running out of the tape.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break until five minutes past six.

Page 25357

1 --- Recess taken at 5.42 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, may we go into

5 private session briefly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 25358











11 Page 25358 redacted. Private session.















Page 25359

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


15 Q. In fact, Mr. Krajisnik, Arkan's forces did come to -- not only

16 operated in Zvornik and Bijeljina but came to Sarajevo for the same

17 purpose.

18 A. I didn't know, although here I saw in an intercept that that is

19 so. That was an intercept between Mladic and Unkovic. I learned about it

20 here, but back then and there, I didn't know. It's probably the

21 municipality that engaged them on their own initiative. What do I know?

22 Let me just remind you, Mladic said on that occasion that

23 everybody has to be placed under the army, and he meant those men who had

24 been brought on somebody's own initiative. But at that time, I didn't

25 know.

Page 25360

1 Q. In fact, you're referring, Mr. Krajisnik, to an intercepted

2 telephone conversation between Mr. Unkovic and General Mladic on the 13th

3 of May, 1992. That can be --

4 A. Yes. That's a conversation that you played here, and I learned

5 then that there's something in it. But then on the 13th of May, I can't

6 remember I was. Maybe I was travelling. I don't know. Maybe I was in

7 Herzegovina, maybe even in Grac. I have no idea. Yes, I was in Banja

8 Luka. On the 12th of May I was in Banja Luka, and this conversation took

9 place on the 13th.

10 Q. Well, the conversation on the 13th of May reflecting Arkan's

11 presence, Mr. Krajisnik, does not mean that's the only date on which Arkan

12 was there or the only date on which you had an opportunity to learn about

13 the presence of his forces there.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm looking at this conversation, and on

15 my list it doesn't appear to have an exhibit number, although I would have

16 thought it would have, but --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Under what -- is it included in --

18 MR. TIEGER: It's in one of the additional materials that's ready

19 to be distributed, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And -- Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

21 Before we assign a new number, perhaps we could check on

22 whether ...

23 Mr. Tieger, we are just trying to find out whether we have --

24 meanwhile, you may proceed.


Page 25361

1 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you received a copy. You seem to be looking at

2 that now. And as it indicates on the second page shortly before the

3 conclusion of the conversation, Professor Unkovic and General Mladic

4 discuss the presence of Arkan's men. And as you indicated, General Mladic

5 indicates that they are under his command, as he says, if they want to

6 stay alive. And Professor Unkovic says, "Excellent. Excellent."

7 Now, in addition to Professor Unkovic from a Crisis Staff member

8 from Ilidza, and General Mladic, there were others who knew as well. For

9 example, Mr. Prstojevic knew that Arkan's forces were present in Sarajevo

10 and operating with the Bosnian Serb forces. And if you look at tab 139 --

11 MR. TIEGER: And before we go further, Your Honour, that caution

12 was warranted. The previous intercept of May 13, 1992, between Unkovic

13 and Mladic is P529, tab 265.


15 MR. TIEGER: And the intercept at tab 139, the telephone

16 conversation between Mr. Prstojevic and Milisav Gagovic on 14 May, 1992,

17 is P793.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, the relevant portion of that conversation,

19 after some discussion about the operations of the Bosnian Serb forces, the

20 manpower and hardware available, appears at approximately the last quarter

21 of the conversation, about the tenth line from the bottom, where

22 Mr. Prstojevic says: "I do not know for sure if anything is in working

23 order here. Two tanks, three APCs and so on. I'm not sure for this

24 checkpoint.

25 "Gagovic: Fuck!

Page 25362

1 "Prstojevic: And those two yesterday are with Arkan's men."

2 So that's a reflection of the fact again, Mr. Krajisnik, that

3 Arkan's men are operating in Sarajevo and not secretly. So in addition to

4 the highest level of the military command of the -- at least the --

5 insofar as General Mladic is concerned, down to Mr. Prstojevic, a Crisis

6 Staff commander, and Gagovic as well.

7 So notwithstanding what seems to be, from these intercepts,

8 reasonably well known among those aware of the personnel and activities of

9 the Bosnian Serb forces of the presence of Arkan's forces, it's -- you

10 didn't hear anything about the presence of Arkan -- Arkan's men in

11 Sarajevo?

12 A. Well, I've told you quite simply that I did not memorise that in

13 any way. I told you about Seselj's men. I knew about them. I didn't

14 know about -- I didn't know about Arkan's men, and I don't even know when

15 this was going on.

16 Q. Well, we talked a few moments ago about Zvornik and the awareness

17 of the Bosnian Serb leadership, at least insofar as you were aware, of the

18 events in Zvornik and Arkan's involvement in that. Perhaps we can take a

19 look at how Arkan's forces came to Sarajevo. If we could look at --

20 A. Wait a minute. Are you saying that I said that I knew about

21 Arkan's men, or is it something that you are putting to me about Arkan's

22 men being in Zvornik?

23 Q. It may be a translation problem or perhaps just the way I asked

24 the question, Mr. Krajisnik, but I just referred back to the question and

25 answers we had before about that subject.

Page 25363

1 A. All right. All right.

2 Q. And I'd like to turn to another additional item, number 4, P292,

3 KID 31230, an intercepted telephone conversation between Mrs. Plavsic and

4 Rus of 23 April, 1992.

5 A. Which tab? Could you tell -- ah, yes. Sorry.

6 Q. Now, in this conversation, Mr. Krajisnik, we can see at the top

7 that Mrs. Plavsic calls, announces herself, and asks, "Is Zeljko there?"

8 And is told, "He's not up yet. Mr. Rus is here."

9 Down the page about five lines or so, Rus greets her, "... with

10 deepest respect, madam ... this is Rus," and explains that he is the

11 commander's batman.

12 They continue with Mrs. Plavsic wanting to ask Rus something

13 because, as she puts it, "Zeljko is not there, right?" And then she goes

14 on, "All right. All right. Never mind then. This is what it's about.

15 I've returned here to my base, the one where I'm from."

16 Another passage down: "I haven't arrived home yet. One small

17 part was blocked. But I wanted ... ask him if we ask him to come here if

18 that was possible in theory."

19 Rus, on the next page, indicates that he doesn't have

20 authorisation to speak on behalf of Arkan but will pass him the message

21 immediately.

22 As you can see in the next small passage, they devise a code for

23 that purpose, with Mrs. Plavsic indicating, "I'll just ask if you can

24 possibly bring the merchandise." And Rus says he understands: "Yes,

25 bravo, very clever." And they try to arrange a time when he can call.

Page 25364

1 And then about six lines down, Mrs. Plavsic says: "All right.

2 Tell me, how are things in Zvornik? Can you tell me that?"

3 Rus: "Sorry?"

4 Mrs. Plavsic: "How are things in Zvornik? Did Pejo go there?"

5 Rus says: "Well, I don't know ... he was supposed to go there as

6 well to visit."

7 She says: "Yes, yes. I know."

8 And he continues: "... the entire situation ... because there are

9 all sorts of rumours."

10 Mr. Krajisnik, this is a reflection of the fact that after

11 witnessing what Arkan did in Bijeljina and learning of what he did in

12 Zvornik, the conclusion was reached that he was the right guy for the job

13 in Sarajevo, and she invited him to come to Sarajevo in that phone call,

14 or prepared to invite him to come to Sarajevo and passed on that

15 invitation. There's no dispute about that, is there?

16 A. I read this. It was not my understanding that he was supposed to

17 come to Sarajevo, but I know why he was supposed to come to Sarajevo; to

18 get her out of Sarajevo because she herself was under a blockade by the

19 Muslims. That was the reason why he was supposed to come to Sarajevo,

20 Zeljko. And somebody testified about that here. That's how I know.

21 I would like to remind you of the fact that this is the 23rd of

22 April, and if you remember one protected witness, he mentioned that he --

23 that she was in Lukavica on the 20th of April, that she met him when I

24 claimed that that was not the case, that she was in Sarajevo in her own

25 apartment in Muslim-held territory. And before that, she was in Zvornik

Page 25365

1 with Linda Karadjordjevic, before that, in Zvornik, according to what she

2 wrote in her book. I did not know about that. I had no contact with her

3 at that time.

4 Q. Well, we can see from the previous intercepts, Mr. Krajisnik, that

5 Arkan's group engaged in activities with the other Bosnian Serb forces

6 regarding things other than some sort of rescue mission for Mrs. Plavsic.

7 Is it your testimony that they stuck around to assist?

8 A. I don't know, but she made a statement to you that she called

9 Arkan to get her out of Sarajevo. It's in the statement you showed me.

10 In your statement, Mrs. Plavsic was interpreting this conversation, that

11 she was under a blockade by these Muslim gangs.

12 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, my apologies if I led you to talk about the

13 particular document. Of course I'm interested in knowing what you knew at

14 the time. So is it your testimony that despite the --

15 A. I'm sorry.

16 Q. Despite what General Mladic said at the time, and Mr. Unkovic, and

17 Mr. Prstojevic, and Gagovic, and the others, and now Mrs. Plavsic, that

18 you were never apprised of Arkan's presence in Sarajevo?

19 A. I was not apprised of it. I tell you. You can see the transcript

20 of the Assembly of Republika Srpska where Djokanovic and Jovan Mijatovic

21 quarreled about the activities of the Yellow Wasps and Arkan, and he said

22 that that wasn't correct. That is the only knowledge I have about Arkan

23 as far as Zvornik is concerned. Maybe I knew that there were some units,

24 but I didn't relate it to Arkan. How can I know? It was a long time ago.

25 I cannot state anything emphatically. I just told you what I knew about

Page 25366

1 the man Arkan.

2 Q. Now, you did refer to Arkan's involvement in -- or the involvement

3 of Arkan's forces in getting Mrs. Plavsic out of Sarajevo, and since you

4 did refer to that, that's found at tab 138. It's a conversation in May

5 between Legija and first -- or between Legion, Erdut --

6 A. No, no. I'm sorry. Excuse me. I didn't say that they were

7 there. I said that Mrs. Plavsic in her statement said that she called Rus

8 so that Arkan would help her get out. Now, I don't know whether that

9 happened, whether he helped her.

10 Q. Well, I'm directing your attention to tab 138, which I believe

11 will need a number.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was not attentive. The number, Madam

13 Registrar, would be?

14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be P1223, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. This is a conversation, Mr. Krajisnik, as you can see, which

18 begins between two persons named Erdut and Legion, and Legion asks to

19 speak to the commander at the beginning of the conversation and asks to

20 have him passed on, and then --

21 MR. TIEGER: There's a bit of an ambiguity here, Your

22 Honour. The heading -- the heading indicates it is a conversation between

23 the three, but as you can see, the listings of the participants just have

24 the first two, notwithstanding the fact that the portion is, "Do pass him

25 on," and then it appears someone comes on the line and says, "How's it

Page 25367

1 going, Legy" We will check who --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, who are the interlocutors.

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

4 Q. But in any event, Mr. Krajisnik, as you can see in the middle of

5 that first page they discuss "that female friend of ours Biljana" and the

6 fact that she was liberated. And then if you continue toward the back,

7 they indicate in about 10 lines from the bottom that "there," meaning

8 concluded, "I hope she'll contact Mladic and Karadzic today, there."

9 "So there, we've got it all under control."

10 Did Dr. Karadzic ever make reference to you to his awareness of

11 Arkan's forces operating in Sarajevo or to being contacted shortly after

12 Mrs. Plavsic's release from or departure from Sarajevo in connection with

13 that event?

14 A. I assert with full certainty that I was not abreast of any of

15 this. And Karadzic -- well, no. I don't remember any of this, no. And

16 also, Arkan wasn't the one who set Biljana Plavsic free. It was the MUP

17 of Republika Srpska. Well, that's what she was boasting of, and how can I

18 know who it was?

19 Q. Now, we've seen a number of intercepts where the persons operating

20 or commanding forces or working with the Bosnian Serb forces from Pale,

21 for example, have numerous exchanges and seem to know each other

22 reasonably well, seem to know who each -- who each other is and what their

23 general role in the Bosnian Serb forces are. Is that a reflection of

24 generally the comparatively small size of Pale? Among other things, of

25 course.

Page 25368

1 A. I don't understand. Please don't hold it against me, but I do not

2 follow what you're saying or I cannot follow what you're saying. I don't

3 understand the gist of your question.

4 Pale was the centre of the republic, so no dispute about that,

5 although it's a small place. Karadzic was there, the Assembly was there.

6 No dispute about that. If that is an answer to your question. It wasn't

7 some other place.

8 MR. JOSSE: I wanted to let that question and answer go. In the

9 answer immediately before the last question, the translation says that she

10 was boasting of, presumably, it. I understand that in fact what

11 Mr. Krajisnik said is that the MUP of the Republika Srpska was boasting

12 about it. Perhaps that could be clarified.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, who was boasting about having freed,

14 liberated Mrs. Plavsic? Was it Arkan's men or was it -- no, was it

15 Biljana Plavsic, or was it the MUP? Who did say so?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The MUP of Republika Srpska. When I

17 talked to them, they said, "We could have all lost our lives on account of

18 Biljana Plavsic."

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That being corrected, you may proceed,

20 Mr. Tieger.


22 Q. I asked --

23 JUDGE ORIE: We're stuck more or less on your last question, which

24 was, Mr. Krajisnik, where people seem to know each other well in their

25 telephone conversations, does that reflect, especially people in command,

Page 25369

1 does that reflect that Pale was just a small village where everyone knew

2 each other? Is that just --

3 MR. TIEGER: At least in part, yes.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] None of these people are from Pale.

6 All of these people here are from Sarajevo, outside Pale. That's why I

7 didn't understand. Gagovic, Mladic, everybody, Prstojevic.


9 Q. It maybe helpful to actually wait for the subsequent questions,

10 Mr. Krajisnik. And you did indicate Pale is a small place. I noted

11 earlier in your testimony you spoke about calling up people you knew,

12 according to you, to find out what was going on at the time. Is it fair

13 to say that at least in Pale people, especially those in -- who travelled

14 in circles of higher political or military positions knew each other?

15 A. Well, again, perhaps it's not clear enough to me, but if they were

16 in Pale, then more or less they all met each other even if they hadn't met

17 before. So more or less everybody got to know each other. Ministers and

18 others, if that's what you mean, or are you referring to the municipal

19 organs?

20 Q. I just wanted to -- to determine whether my general understanding

21 of the size of the place and the number of interactions that would result

22 from that relatively small size was roughly accurate. And I asked that,

23 Mr. Krajisnik, because -- if I could ask you to turn to tab 130.

24 MR. TIEGER: It will need a number, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

Page 25370

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1224, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


4 Q. We see on page 3 of the English at the top -- let me identify what

5 that is first. That's a report from the RS MUP on the realisation of a

6 strictly confidential order that's numbered there, dated August 3, 1992.

7 And as we can see at the second paragraph in the English on page 3 and

8 also at the top of the page in B/C/S on page 3, that about 20 of Arkan's

9 men were staying not only in the general area but at the Panorama Hotel.

10 That's where you lived, Mr. Krajisnik; right?

11 A. They certainly weren't staying with me. This is a pure lie. I

12 lived in Panorama. I don't know where they were, but they were not where

13 I was. I don't know who they were. Maybe there were some guests who I

14 didn't know. But that somebody said to me that there were 20 of Arkan's

15 men, that is not correct. Perhaps they were like refugees, because there

16 were lots of refugees.

17 Q. And if we look quickly at tab 131.

18 MR. TIEGER: And that would need a number as well, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: P1225, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Tieger.


23 Q. This is a report to the minister of the interior dated August 10,

24 1992. And again page 3 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S,

25 Mr. Krajisnik. It confirms that that group of Arkan's men are still at

Page 25371

1 the Panorama Hotel.

2 A. I assure you, from day one until my arrest I was in Panorama.

3 Arkan's were never in Panorama. There were refugees like I was. Whether

4 some of the refugees were declared as such, that I don't know, but they

5 were never in Panorama. If there's a different Panorama, then I don't

6 know about it.

7 No way. No way. This is pure fabrication. I don't know if they

8 were staying at some other facility.

9 Q. You say it's a fabrication. Is there -- are you aware of some

10 reason why that particular representation would have been fabricated?

11 A. I am saying -- I'm saying that I know with certainty that refugees

12 were there. I was there too. Next to Panorama there was a small weekend

13 cottage where Karadzic was. I never heard that there were any of Arkan's

14 men there in Panorama throughout that time. There are books from

15 Panorama, so somebody can check this out. I don't know where they could

16 have been.

17 This comes as a sort of shock to me. This is not correct. Maybe

18 among the refugees. Maybe somebody smuggled them in. I don't know.

19 There were a lot of refugees.

20 MR. JOSSE: I submit that that last question was grossly unfair.

21 Two documents have been thrown at the witness, couple of lines, long

22 documents not previously exhibited in the case, and the witness is then

23 asked the question, Well, has all this been fabricated? Excuse me for

24 paraphrasing what my learned friend has said. The witness needs to read

25 the document, perhaps overnight, and then be invited to comment on these

Page 25372

1 documents properly. This is not the proper way to cross-examine, in my

2 submission.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, notwithstanding what seems to be undue

4 umbrage by my learned friend, I did not ask -- pose to Mr. Krajisnik the

5 question whether it was fabrication. He raised it, and so I simply asked

6 if he had a basis for that, which seems to me a perfectly fair question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse --

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the question has been put to you why,

10 what would be the reason for such, as you call it, a fabrication.

11 Mr. Josse very much thought it fair that you could read the whole of the

12 document so that you know at least the context on which this, what you

13 said to be a fabrication, was presented.

14 Mr. Tieger, the Chamber would not mind if Mr. Krajisnik would

15 answer your question tomorrow after he has had an opportunity to read the

16 document.

17 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour. That's fine.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer now if you want. I can

20 answer now.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to answer it now. You always can add

22 something tomorrow, but the question is what would be the reason for

23 someone to put such a fabrication in this report? Yes?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea. I can only say that

25 I thought who was sleeping in what room. At first my family, my relatives

Page 25373

1 were there. I never heard that Arkan's men were there in 1992. There.

2 That's what I can say.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You repeat that it's not true what is said in this

4 report, but you've answered the question that you have got no idea.

5 You've got no idea why. Yes?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there were many

7 refugees. Maybe among them there were such people. I could not identify

8 them then as Arkan's men because everything was overbooked. If that was

9 the case, well, possibly, because then I was struggling with my wife's

10 illness. But I was never aware of Arkan's men in Panorama.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Where you earlier said that it's a fabrication, you

12 now say that if it is true, that you did not -- you were not aware of

13 anyone in the hotel, of which you tell us that there were many refugees,

14 that any of them were Arkan's men, although you do not exclude for the

15 possibility that there were. Is that a correct understanding of your

16 answer?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you asked me about

18 what the reason was for someone to lie. I said I don't know. But if I

19 were to guess, if I were to guess and to help this person who wrote this,

20 then I'm trying to find something, like I didn't know about it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: But if you didn't know about it, it doesn't mean that

22 someone else does lie. I mean, we have two issues: First whether it's a

23 fabrication, yes or no.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. I agree.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You used the word it was a fabrication. That means

Page 25374

1 -- at least, I understand a fabrication to be that someone intentionally

2 said this although it was not true. Then you later on -- at least, I

3 understood your testimony to be a bit different; that is, that although

4 you do not exclude for the possibility, you only identified other guests

5 as many of them being refugees but not excluding for the possibility --

6 for the possibility that among those refugees there were people who might

7 have been Arkan's men.

8 The reason for the fabrication becomes irrelevant as soon as you

9 do not stick to what was your earlier testimony is that it was a pure

10 fabrication.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger. We've got three minutes left. If you

12 want to start with a new subject --

13 MR. TIEGER: I think that would be preferable, Your Honour, thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn for the day, which means,

16 Mr. Krajisnik, that I again -- I again remind -- instruct you not to

17 speak with anyone about the testimony. I know for sure that you know my

18 words by heart already. Just not to speak with anyone about your

19 testimony already given or still to be given, and -- it seems that you

20 wanted to say something before I adjourned.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I, please? May I ask my

22 investigators tonight to go to Panorama and to see whether Arkan's men

23 were there ever? I was not aware of Arkan's men in 1992, 1993, 1994.

24 Never heard of it. When I'm saying this to you -- when I'm saying that

25 this was a pure fabrication, pure invention, well, it is a strong word. I

Page 25375

1 mean, I should have known that they were there if they were there, but

2 that's why I use such strong wording. May I ask my investigators to go

3 there and to check this out? If there's anyone up there, I mean.

4 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I'd like to -- it would be at least

5 very unusual that a witness consults with investigators in order to find

6 out whether his own answers, which are just about your knowledge,

7 Mr. Krajisnik -- you did not say that they were not there. I take it --

8 but, Mr. Tieger, the request of Mr. Krajisnik, would you oppose contact?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it. Yes.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps I could point out we have heard

11 what Mr. Krajisnik has said. We are free to contact the investigators any

12 time we like. Therefore, we can judge -- I think Mr. Tieger has this in

13 mind as well. We can judge and read and decide what to do about it.

14 There is no need for Mr. Krajisnik to contact investigators because we

15 can.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. I was just asking. Mr. Krajisnik asked

17 whether he could do it, and then I invited Mr. Tieger to tell us whether

18 he would oppose.

19 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm short-circuiting by saying

20 it's completely unnecessary so Mr. Tieger doesn't need to be asked.

21 Mr. Krajisnik doesn't need to do it because we can do it.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The next question would be whether you could

24 communicate what you learned from an investigator. But you could use it

25 in re-examination, if you want to.

Page 25376

1 MR. STEWART: Well, that's sort of what I had in mind, Your

2 Honour, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear. I expected, as a matter of fact, that

4 you would oppose, Mr. Tieger, that Mr. Krajisnik -- but now we are --

5 MR. STEWART: He doesn't need to, Your Honour.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And I was going to say yes,

7 I would oppose, and particularly because there is such an appropriate

8 expedient available otherwise.

9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I am glad we were able to

10 clear that up.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, it's not the same thing

12 when Mr. Stewart asks and when I ask. My conversations are recorded, and

13 I will say look at this, look at this, and look at this, so you will have

14 all of it. It's not that I'm saying there go there and take this, take

15 that period, take that period, whatever. Because Mr. Stewart is just

16 going to say were Arkan's men there? That's not sufficient. Record the

17 conversation that I'm going to have. But then if it's not necessary, then

18 it's not necessary. Okay.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, your request is denied, and as you may

21 have heard, of course Defence counsel is in a position --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- to put the questions in whatever way they would

24 like to your investigators to the --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all right. I agree. I

Page 25377

1 agree.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just say so there is no

4 misunderstanding as Mr. Krajisnik goes off for the evening, naturally, as

5 always my intervention was intended to help Mr. Krajisnik. I hope he

6 understands that. I think he does now.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're right. You're

8 right. I was revolted, and I wanted to double-check on myself, because I

9 don't know whether they were there. But I agree with you. If somebody

10 believes it, then they believe it. I agree with you. It's all right.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn for the day. Where we thought

13 that we would adjourn at three minutes to 7.00, it's now three minutes

14 past 7.00. We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past two, same

15 courtroom.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day

18 of June, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.