1 Wednesday, 14 June 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 11.07 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Mr. Krajisnik, first of all, do you feel well enough to continue

11 after the dentist of this morning?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like the trial to continue.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'd like to remind you that you're still

14 bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your

15 testimony.

16 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue?

19 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krajisnik.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. Just one additional question related to the topic we were

24 discussing yesterday, if I could ask you to turn to two tabs in the binder

25 we were using yesterday. First is tab 201. 201 contains excerpts from

1 the 34th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly in 1993. That's P64, P65,

2 tab 221.

3 MR. TIEGER: If the Court could turn to page 64 of the English.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We brought some material but not 201.

5 MR. JOSSE: I mean, I do have it but it wasn't in the tab. That's

6 why we are getting an insert, no doubt.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We have it in front of us. Please proceed.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. As indicated Mr. Krajisnik, it was the bottom of page 64 in the

10 English and in the B/C/S page 62. These are remarks by Dr. Karadzic.

11 It's also at the bottom of your page, Mr. Krajisnik, ending with the ERN

12 number 0570.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Your Honour, I'm beginning with the -- it's approximately six

15 lines up from the bottom. Dr. Karadzic states, "Personally I think that

16 we gain more. Sarajevo is not in the Muslim state," and again let me

17 pause and say this is in the context of discussions clearly about yet

18 another plan. And again Dr. Karadzic states, "Personally I think that we

19 gain more. Sarajevo is not in the Muslim state. It is in a Serbian state

20 because everything around is Serbian and we keep everything. We are not

21 going to cede a single footstep. If we would cede a single footstep on

22 their pressure we will finish the job. Therefore, Sarajevo has more

23 chances to become entirely Serbian than to become entirely Muslim. The

24 most probable option is to divide Sarajevo and create two cities. We will

25 not cede Sarajevo, gentlemen. We frankly said that to delegations." And

1 if you could then turn quickly to tab 191, Mr. Krajisnik --

2 A. Are you skipping lines? You start reading and then you skip a

3 line or lines, and then I cannot follow what you're saying. Yes, because

4 the interpreter was saying "Sarajevo is not," et cetera, and I can't find

5 that so I can't follow you.

6 Q. No, Mr. Krajisnik, I am not skipping lines in so far as I am

7 aware, but reading directly from the translation at the noted pages.

8 A. Well, then the interpreter does not have the original and that is

9 why I cannot follow. Now, please go ahead.

10 Q. Did your version begin with, "Personally I" --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. All right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Did you find it, Mr. Krajisnik?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally think that we get

15 more -- I heard you. Please go ahead.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. Okay. All right. And then if I ask you to move to tab 191, which

18 contains --

19 MR. TIEGER: That's P850, Your Honours --

20 Q. -- which contains an interview with you in Srpska Oslobodjenje, and

21 if I could ask you, Mr. Krajisnik, to turn to -- well, Your Honours, to

22 turn to page 10 of the English, the last passage, and Mr. Krajisnik, for

23 you, that would be the end of the interview, the last full paragraph at

24 the bottom right portion of the article on page 03597315. It's the page

25 that shows you sitting at your desk with a book open in front of you, and

1 the telephone to your left. I can see you're looking at it there. Okay.

2 That part begins by the prospective for Sarajevo is such that in the

3 future, it will not be the capital. God willing, Belgrade will be the

4 capital of all Serb lands, Sarajevo will be our capital until all Serb

5 lands unite. And then I just wanted to continue a few sentences to where

6 you say, "This --" this is now on page 11, Your Honours, the last

7 paragraph. "This is where it's being proven that we cannot talk about

8 some joint country." And that was beginning at the second line in the

9 English on page 11. "We are talking about two towns," you said "two

10 countries here. That is the first phase. I will say, tell you now

11 publicly what I think for the first time to the Oslobodjenje. The

12 prospective for Sarajevo is such that in the future, it will be a unified

13 town but a Serb one completely. The Muslims will have to look nor a

14 capital outside of Sarajevo, somewhere else. That is the natural course

15 of things."

16 Mr. Krajisnik, these two passages in -- at the 34th Assembly by

17 Dr. Karadzic and in Srpska Oslobodjenje by you, reflect the Bosnian Serb

18 leadership's intention that if Sarajevo was to be -- belong to Muslims and

19 Serbs both, it would be two cities and divided and if it was to be one

20 city only, it would be Serb. Isn't that right?

21 A. Well, it's not right, Mr. Prosecutor. Please take the plan from

22 this period of time and you will see the international negotiators

23 proposed that two-thirds belonged to the Muslims and one-third to the

24 Serbs, of the inner city that is. And find that plan and you will see

25 that's the way it is. I have no idea what this is here, the way it was

1 put here, but that is what the contact group plan was at the time. And

2 what was proposed then was the possibility of a confederation between us

3 and Serbia. You're taking this out of context. You see what it says

4 here, "there is no bargaining regarding our Sarajevo." I can reed it out.

5 And you will see that it's not what you've been saying. "Today, I

6 presented Mr. Karadzic's statement of the 19th of March." Please, have a

7 look at that and then you will see about what was discussed yesterday,

8 what was claimed yesterday, what is true is what he actually stated, not

9 that there would be a Berlin Wall. Please, let me read out what I said

10 here. Let me read it out and you will see what I said. "We could have

11 had a confederal link with Serbia on the basis of the contact plan.

12 However, we did not accept that plan."

13 I kindly ask that I be allowed to read it so that you will see

14 what I said.

15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, if there is a portion of the article that you think

16 the Judges -- that should be brought to the Court's attention, by all

17 means, point it out, please.

18 A. I'm going to read it out now. "Now we hold perhaps 20 per cent of

19 Sarajevo. We are entitled to another 30 per cent of the town. The inner

20 part of the city is" --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Krajisnik please slow down? The

22 interpreters have not found this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, could you please slow down until the

24 interpreters have found the relevant passage?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I'm going to repeat what I read

1 out.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "We are now holding perhaps 20 per

4 cent of Sarajevo. We are entitled to another 30 per cent of the town.

5 The municipality of Stari Grad, centre of Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad, belong

6 to the inner part of the city. In that Novo Sarajevo, New Sarajevo, we

7 hold only Grbavica. We have a right to half of this inner urban area.

8 All the rest is the periphery. By no means can we cede parts of Sarajevo

9 that are held by the Serbs. We can only talk about possible exchanges."

10 And so on and so forth. That was the plan of the contact group that was

11 supposed to give the entire urban area to the Muslims. Please, the

12 context is very important, the period of time when this is actually being

13 stated. I brought here today four solutions for Sarajevo. Please, in all

14 four the international community proposed divisions of Sarajevo. We never

15 proposed that. We asked for a district. So I brought all these documents

16 in today and I would like to hand them over to you. I know what we were

17 asking for.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The material you brought today, Mr. Krajisnik, is, as

19 usual, made available to the parties or will be made available to the

20 parties. Since you are drawing our attention to the element of time, the

21 part read to you by Mr. Tieger is followed by a passage which reads, "This

22 town will belong to the Republika Srpska in its totality. All this that

23 I'm saying might seem too optimistic or too radical to you but I'm certain

24 that it will be so. As far as the transitional period is concerned, there

25 will be two towns. It is our goal to achieve all this without war, but I

1 doubt that the Muslims want the same. I'm afraid that for this reason,

2 the deciding battle of this war will take place exactly here, in

3 Sarajevo."

4 In the interview, Mr. Krajisnik, it is reflected that you would

5 have said that it would be not immediately but a longer-term goal to make

6 the whole of Sarajevo belong to the Republika Srpska. Were your words

7 misrepresented here or is it that it was only temporarily that you opted

8 for a -- for two towns rather than one or a divided town or whatever name

9 you gave it? Or if your words are misrepresented, then of course we don't

10 have to pay further attention to it at this moment.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to be able to read this

12 interview. I don't know. I cannot relate this to what I wrote earlier

13 on. What is referred to here is the capital, because there was a problem

14 between Banja Luka and Sarajevo. Allow me to read this and then I'll see.

15 I never asked for all of Sarajevo to be Serb. No way is that possible.

16 So what are we asking for? Half of the city?

17 JUDGE ORIE: I only say that this is what the publication in --

18 says which was just read to you by Mr. Tieger, but if you say, "I never

19 said such a thing," then we can move on.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish I could read the interview.

21 Then I can say why I stated something, if I stated it at all. I don't

22 want to speak just off the cuff as to whether I stated something or not,

23 or why.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps, Mr. Krajisnik, you read the last

25 portion of what was -- was it 201 or -- no, it was not 201.

1 MR. TIEGER: It was 191.

2 JUDGE ORIE: 191. Could Mr. Krajisnik be given an opportunity to

3 read also the lines that follow the lines quoted by Mr. Tieger.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. President, that's what it

5 says here, a confederacy. That's what it says here. I know that. Some

6 people say that we will have -- or some people complained that we will

7 have a confederation with Serbia. That wasn't the contact plan. And now

8 I am saying something here, perhaps in a resigned manner, I don't know

9 what I was saying. But any way, I stand by every interview I gave. I

10 just wanted to be in its integral form and I want to be able to read it.

11 I never said things that I did not mean. I did not say them if I meant

12 something else. This is about the plan of the contacts group where they

13 are talking about Sarajevo. I don't know. I cannot say now, just off the

14 cuff.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You had an opportunity to read the last portion of

16 your Oslobodjenje interview.

17 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I understand the witness to be saying he

18 wants to read the whole of the article.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then he'll be -- can take that out. Of course, I

20 have drawn his attention to the portion following the lines read by --

21 read by Mr. Tieger but Mr. Krajisnik, perhaps you -- if there are other

22 parts you'd like to read, they do not all seem to be related exactly to

23 this issue but then you'll have an opportunity to take them with you

24 during the next break and --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I stand by every

1 interview I gave. I want to read the interview and I want to see why this

2 was stated and in what context, and I'm never going to deny if I said

3 something, if I said something wrong, too. But if it's the contact group,

4 I know why it was there. And not have someone now come up with some

5 quotation and then ask me to answer. This is not my position.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I said you will have an opportunity to

7 read 191 and then give further comment on the matter.

8 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. The additional bundles is --

10 could the next couple of additional bundles be distributed, if they are

11 not already available. I know they look daunting. I hope they won't

12 prove be.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please verify that

14 Mr. Krajisnik has tab 191 available to him in the original language. That

15 is not new bundle but the old one. That's the Oslobodjenje interview.

16 Yes, if it's there --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, during the course of your examination-in-chief, you

21 were asked about the 24 April 1992 decision by the National Security

22 Council stating that the exchange of prisoners be handled by the Ministry

23 of Justice after the internal affairs organs finish their work. And you

24 indicated in your testimony, at -- on May 15th, 2006, at approximately

25 10.07 through 10.09 that that was the first time that this problem was

1 dealt with in minutes and records and later on several occasions that was

2 an item on the agenda. I'd like to look both at some of the subsequent

3 documentation and some of those items on the agenda.

4 Very quickly, if we can, that just for your benefit and the Court,

5 the April 24th meeting of the Council for National Security and Government

6 is found at tab 253. I've already referred to that. If we could turn

7 quickly to tab 255, P436, that was --

8 A. Yes, it's 55.

9 Q. That was the decision to form a central commission for the

10 exchange of prisoners of war, arrested persons and the bodies of those

11 killed on May 8th, 1992. And quickly turning also to tab 267 which is

12 P435, P583, tab 75 --

13 A. Just a moment, please. Let me get this.

14 Q. I may be moving fast. I don't mean to rush you.

15 A. Oh, but you are rushing, but never mind, go ahead.

16 Q. You tell me if I'm moving too fast, Mr. Krajisnik and if you need

17 time to find the appropriate passage.

18 A. Please go ahead. I have found it.

19 Q. Tab 267 contains P435, P583 tab 75, and that's an order on June 6,

20 1992, by the president of the central commission for exchange of prisoners

21 of war, detainees and bodies of the killed, which the Court and the

22 parties have had an opportunity to look at before and in fact was

23 discussed more than once during the course of the case thus far. I wanted

24 you to look at those quickly, Mr. Krajisnik, because those documents

25 reflect the subsequent actions in connection with the exchange of

1 prisoners that took place after the 24 April 1992 decision by the NSC,

2 correct? That is, that after the April 24th decision, a commission was

3 formed for the exchange and that commission went into operation and issued

4 the order we've seen on June 6th.

5 A. There was first a conference where it was agreed to conduct an

6 all-for-all exchange. And that was -- that gave rise to talks at this

7 consultative meeting. The government was supposed to implement it. And

8 all this explanation that I was unaware of was given us in the testimony

9 of Mr. Mandic. And there is a contract that I have produced, signed by

10 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Vanovac, from the Serb side, whereas the Muslim side

11 rejected it. There is another contract signed by Mr. Vanovac and

12 Mr. Filip Vukovic but it was never implemented and Mandic gave evidence as

13 to why it wasn't. But I don't know anything about that. I just heard it

14 here, same as you did. I provided that contract among other documents.

15 Q. And during the course of your examination-in-chief, while

16 discussing the decision of the April 24th -- the decision at the April

17 24th, 1992, NSC session, you mentioned essentially the same thing or

18 alluded to the same thing, when you said, "The Serb side and through the

19 mediation of the UN, that all prisoners at that point in time should be

20 exchanged all for all." Then you indicated that was not realised. You

21 said you didn't know why. And stated that this was simply a big mistake

22 and many remained in prison and then they were easy prey for many

23 irresponsible people in terms of abuse and how should I put this, grave

24 consequences.

25 So that's -- so what you said a moment ago was another reference

1 to the problems arising from the -- the problems that you considered that

2 arose from the problem to implement the all-for-all agreement or to

3 implement exchanges?

4 A. Yes. We always wanted to complete this and have the prisoners

5 exchanged. There were prisoners from the very start, if you remember, and

6 every corps had its own commission for prisoner exchanges, apart from the

7 central commission, meaning prisoners of war that they took prisoner.

8 Q. Now, the order of June 6, 1992, found at tab 267 begins by stating

9 central commission of Serbian Republic of BH for exchange of prisoners of

10 war, detainees and then bodies of the killed. So it distinguishes between

11 prisoner of war and detainees. That distinction, Mr. Krajisnik, is

12 essentially the distinction between prisoners of war and civilian

13 prisoners, correct?

14 A. I don't know about that. You're asking me about something that

15 you're reading from that paper. I don't know anything about this. You

16 had Mr. Mandic here and you could have asked him. Indeed, you did ask

17 him. I have no idea about this. I see it here just as you do. I can

18 only guess what the author meant. Those can be prisoners guilty of theft

19 or I don't know. Not necessarily civilian population. Maybe it was a

20 soldier who committed a violation, a crime.

21 Q. If we can turn to tab 254, P529, tab 167 --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Tieger, the document also is

23 talking about children and minors up to 16 years of age.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't even read the order to the

25 end because I have nothing to do with it. I only saw it here when Mr.

1 Mandic testified. Of course, this seems to be a warning to the

2 government, written by Tolovic. That's how I understand it. Whether such

3 things happened or not can only be explained by the people who did it. I

4 had never seen this order before.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. I had directed your attention, Mr. Krajisnik, and the Court's

8 attention to tab 254. That's a letter by the president of the government

9 or the Prime Minister, to the TO headquarters and to the Serbian MUP on

10 April 28th, 1992, and if we look at the third item --

11 A. I'm sorry, but this is completely illegible, the copy that I have.

12 It's legible in English, I see.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger would you please read the passage you want

14 to draw the attention of Mr. Krajisnik to, and I don't remember but there

15 must have been a better copy once.

16 MR. TIEGER: There is, Your Honour, and I believe we have it here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, I could not imagine someone would

18 translate this.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, at the third item which you now have before you in

21 B/C/S, states, in the treatment of prisoners concerning their

22 accommodation, food and medical care --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the interpreters are very sorry to

24 interrupt but for this to be interpreted as it is written the interpreters

25 need a copy, one copy at least.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. I see you have an opportunity to look at it but I presume the

3 Court wants me to read it out and if that's going to be done, the

4 interpreters will need the correct B/C/S?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I.

6 THE INTERPRETER: We've got it now, thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be a different copy of -- well, must be

8 the same text but the one bears stamps which the other seems not to bear,

9 different ERN number so it's not just a matter of availability, but

10 also --

11 MR. TIEGER: I think that that's right, Your Honour,.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. Again, Mr. Krajisnik, item 3 states, "in the treatment of

15 prisoners concerning their accommodation, food, and medical care,

16 internationally established standards must be observed. A record should

17 be maintained and regularly updated with information on the status of

18 health of both military and civilian prisoners.

19 So that document reflects the distinction between prisoners of war

20 and civilian prisoners that appears to be also reflected in the June 6th

21 order of Mr. Colovic; is that correct?

22 A. There were in prisons both military and civilian prisoners. I

23 mean captured soldiers and civilian persons. Whether he meant by this

24 that they had captured civilian persons, I don't know. But it says

25 detained military and civilian persons. They must have known in prison

1 who was a captured soldier and who was a civilian. Civilians could also

2 be placed under arrest for, I don't know what for, but both categories

3 were in prison. It doesn't mean that a civilian was captured during

4 fighting. I'm talking about things I don't know. I'm just trying to

5 assist. I don't believe that Mr. Djeric would have accepted arrests of

6 civilians. He just believes that there are military prisoners and

7 civilian prisoners in prisons. I mean, civilians who are in prison. I

8 don't know, but from what I know of the man, he would have never accepted

9 for civilians to be arrested and placed in prisons.

10 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, let's look, then, at some of the documents

11 reflecting how persons ended up in camps and ended up in camps for

12 exchange. If we could look at tab 261, please.

13 MR. TIEGER: That's P865, Your Honours.

14 Q. That's an order dated 28 May 1992, by Major Svetozar Andric, the

15 commander of the Birac Brigade, and if we look at item number 6, it

16 states, "The moving out of the Muslim population must be organised and

17 coordinated with the municipalities through which the moving is carried

18 out. Only women and children can move out while men fit for military

19 service are to be placed in camps for exchange." And in connection with

20 that document, Mr. Krajisnik, if we can look quickly also at tab 264,

21 that's P668, Your Honours, that is an order by Major Andric dated 31 May

22 1992, stating, pursuant to the decision of the Birac Serb autonomous

23 region government, which regulates the moving out of the Muslim population

24 from the territory of Birac Serb autonomous region, "I hereby order, one,

25 set up a camp in Vlasenica and secure it in compliance with international

1 regulations. Two, I forbid the passing of any arbitrary decision on the

2 physical liquidation of prisoners."

3 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, we've heard evidence during the course of this

4 case that -- that's okay. Let me move on from that question.

5 In any event, Mr. Krajisnik, these two documents reflect in one

6 area Muslim men of military age being taken into camps for exchange,

7 correct?

8 A. I don't know why that was done, but I can remind you of a witness

9 from Hadzici who was here and who said that all people, all civilians, had

10 been taken -- had been placed under arrest by Muslims. So such people

11 were exchanged too but that was not the policy and I didn't know about it.

12 In one place, Serbs were placed under arrest and in another place,

13 Hadzici, Muslims placed them under arrest. Of course, there were

14 militarily able but that shouldn't have been done any way. I can't think

15 of any other reason. All I know is that in Sekovici, Tuzla, and other

16 places, Muslims, on the Muslim side, placed a lot of people under arrest

17 and they spent the whole war in prison.

18 Q. We just looked at two documents arising from events in Eastern

19 Bosnia. Perhaps we can look quickly at a couple of documents arising from

20 events in Western Bosnia. So if I could ask you to turn to tab 262, that

21 will need a number, Your Honour?

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1243, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24 MR. TIEGER:

25 Q. P1243 is a communication from the chief of the public security

1 station, Simo Drljaca to the ministry, Serbian Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of the Interior security services centre Banja

3 Luka dated 31 May 1992. And in it, Mr. Drljaca indicates that "with a

4 view to the speedy and effective establishment of peace on the territory

5 of Prijedor municipality, and in accordance with the decision of the

6 Crisis Staff, I hereby order the following. 1, the industrial compound of

7 the Omarska mine strip mine shall serve as a provisional

8 collection centre for persons captured in combat or detained on the

9 grounds of the security services operational information."

10 In item number 3 he states that a mixed group consisting of

11 national, public, and military security investigators shall be responsible

12 for the work with and categorisation of detainees. They shall organise

13 themselves respecting the parity principle. Mirko Jesic, Ranko Mijic, and

14 Lieutenant Colonel Majstorovic, shall be responsible for their work."

15 Now, with respect to item 3, Mr. Krajisnik, it appears to me that

16 the parity principle refers to the fact that persons from different arms

17 of the Bosnian Serb MUP or military structure will be involved, including

18 Mr. Jesic, Ranko Mijic, and then clearly an army officer, Lieutenant

19 Colonel Majstorovic.

20 A. Yes. That's how I understood it as well.

21 Q. Now, if we could also look at a document in connection with that,

22 which is found at the next tab, tab 263.

23 MR. TIEGER: That's P188, Your Honours.

24 Q. That's a June 1, 1992 confidential report from the 1st Krajina

25 Corps, from Colonel Milutin Vukelic from the 5th Corps command to the 1 KK

1 Corps command and looking at the very bottom of page 1 in the English, and

2 the first full paragraph on page 2 of the B/C/S, Mr. Krajisnik, the report

3 states, "The heaviest fighting has taken place in the area of Hambarine,

4 Prijedor and Kozarac. Troops under the command of the Prijedor area

5 cleared Hambarine and Kozarac, and completely destroyed one ZNG unit,

6 black shirts, foreign mercenaries and legionnaires, the troops have

7 arrested more than 2.000 Green Berets who are now in Omarska. 135 of them

8 are in Stara Gradiska prison and about 5.000 in the village of Trnopolje."

9 Mr. Krajisnik, these two documents, then, reflect the

10 establishment of Omarska and other camps into which were placed Muslims

11 who had been captured by or arrested by the army or by the Bosnian Serb

12 MUP. Correct?

13 A. That's what is written here, I think. You're right.

14 Q. And as these camps began to fill up with more people, new camps

15 were also established, and if I could ask you to turn to tab 277.

16 MR. TIEGER: That is P872, Your Honours.

17 Q. That's a strictly confidential communication from Major Svetozar

18 Andric, commander of the Birac Brigade to the commander of the Eastern

19 Bosnia Corps saying on June 17th, at item number 2, "it is necessary to

20 urgently resolve the issue of prisoner camps because in Vlasenica we

21 currently have 640 prisoners. The safety situation in town is in danger

22 because of this.

23 And similarly if I could ask you quickly in connection with that

24 to turn to tab 265, it's an earlier document but -- and perhaps I should

25 have turned to it first.

1 Your Honour, tab 265 is or contains P1065. A daily operations

2 report from the commander of the East Bosnia Corps, Colonel Ilic, to the

3 Main Staff of the Srpska -- of the VRS. And there, commander Ilic states

4 at items 8 and 9, "We have around 560 prisoners in the region of Zvornik

5 and around 800 in the region of Vlasenica. In item 9, "we ask to you

6 carry out the command [as read] from previous days.

7 The demand, excuse me, if I misstated it. The transcript says,

8 "we ask to you to carry out the command." Item 9 says "demand."

9 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, I believe we've heard previous evidence that

10 the 560 prisoners in the region of Zvornik were persons held in the

11 Karakaj technical school and around 800 in the region of Vlasenica refer

12 to the Susica camp. Do you have any reason to dispute that information?

13 A. I heard it just as you did, here.

14 Q. And if we -- so we see the commander Ilic talking about the

15 prisoners who were being held in areas of Eastern Bosnia and then we have

16 seen the concern expressed by Major Andric on June 17th concerning the

17 number of prisoners in Vlasenica. If we could turn then to tab 276.

18 MR. TIEGER: Which is P874, Your Honours.

19 Q. P874 is an urgent and strictly confidential order from

20 General Mladic to the Eastern Bosnia Corps Command, and to the commander

21 personally. And if we look down that first full paragraph, to -- which is

22 broken down into a number of separate sections, numerically, and the 4th

23 sentence, there is an item 1, and then in describing the problems as

24 follows, in the middle of the paragraph, there are four items enumerated.

25 If we look at the third, about four lines up from the bottom of the page

1 on page 1, and it's also page 1 in your version, Mr. Krajisnik, General

2 Mladic states, "The brigade has close to 600 prisoners. You did not

3 establish a camp for war prisoners at corps level."

4 And then turning to page 2 of the English, and page 2 of the

5 B/C/S, under the item number 2, and you'll find that, Mr. Krajisnik, at

6 the -- you'll see there is a longish paragraph and then a break in the

7 text and then another sentence, that's the sentence I'm referring to.

8 MR. TIEGER: And in the English, Your Honours, it's the third

9 indented -- indicated by a dash, organ under item 2, "the corps is to set

10 up a camp of war prisoners pursuant to our order, confidential number

11 18/28-6, dated June 12th, 1992. The brigade is to be relieved of guarding

12 prisoners."

13 Q. And one more item in that regard, Mr. Krajisnik, if you can turn

14 to tab 290. We may need another bundle for that, I'm not sure.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that will need an a number?

16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1244, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. P1244 is an order pursuant to the order by the army of Serbian

20 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Main Staff, confidential number

21 18/28-6, dated 12 June 1992, regarding the accommodation, daily

22 organisation for life and work of the persons arrested in combat or during

23 their crimes against the people, and it states, in item number 1,

24 establish camp for prisoners of war on a farm in the village of Batkovic

25 for collection of arrested people. The camp shall operate under the name

1 "farm." Item number 2 the commander of the East Bosnia Corps shall

2 appoint the commander of the camp in his order.

3 Mr. Krajisnik, looking at these documents, we can see in Eastern

4 Bosnia a reflection of concern about the number of prisoners and the

5 establishment of additional camps such as Batkovic at the corps level in

6 response to that problem, correct?

7 A. I don't know about that. I am reading this just the way you are.

8 I can read what you're reading too, but I'm not familiar with any of this.

9 May I just add something? It has to do with what is -- what seems

10 to be your intention. Mr. Mladic attended meetings with us only twice

11 during the course of 1992. That is on the 9th of June and in August. If

12 you think that he came coming to see us all the time, contact us, report

13 to us, believe me all of that is wrong. You can have a look at all the

14 meetings. Nobody informed us about this. Nobody informed me about this,

15 at least, whether somebody else was informed, I don't know but there are

16 two meetings only between Mr. Mladic and the members of the Presidency,

17 meetings that I attended, too. So I don't know any of all of this and I

18 can only confirm what you're reading out, if this is correct and I believe

19 it is.

20 Q. Now, earlier we looked at both Eastern Bosnia, events in Eastern

21 Bosnia and some events in Western Bosnia. If we can turn back to Western

22 Bosnia at tab 266 --

23 A. You are really persistent. My hat is off to you. Please go

24 ahead. 266.

25 Q. Tab 266, Your Honours is P11, P200 and P529 tab 306.

1 This -- these are the -- or this document contains the conclusions

2 of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most on 4 June

3 1992, including the following: "Number 1, Mirko Vrucinic, Nedjelko

4 Rasula, and Colonel Nedjo Anicic shall be in charge of resolving the issue

5 of prisoners and their categorisation and deportation to Manjaca," and it

6 also contains a list of the categories, first category, politicians;

7 second category, nationalist extremists; third category, people unwelcome

8 in Sanski Most municipality. It continues, "in view of this have a talk

9 with Colonel Stevilovic from the 1st Krajina Corps."

10 So Mr. Krajisnik, this document reflects the existence of an

11 operation of the Manjaca camp by June 4th, 1992, correct?

12 A. I don't know about that. But I can see here that it's there. I

13 didn't know about Manjaca then.

14 Q. And also reflects, as we've seen in previous orders, directives,

15 and documents, the process of categorisation for the prisoners, correct?

16 A. Well, that's what is written here, yes.

17 Q. And if we turn to tab 277, P872 --

18 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honours. I'm sorry, that would be

19 tab 278?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because we had seen 277 earlier.

21 MR. TIEGER: Of course, accordingly the exhibit number would be

22 different. It would be P748. Tab 5.

23 Q. These are the minutes of the 36th session of the Petrovac

24 municipality Crisis Staff held on 17 June 1992, and turning to an item

25 under decisions, on page 4 of the English, and Mr. Krajisnik, page

1 00946833, that is page 2 of the B/C/S, it's the second-to-last of the

2 decisions item on that page which states, "On the level of the 2nd

3 Krajina Corps the prisoners from the Petrovac public security station are

4 to be transferred to Prekaja or to Manjaca."

5 And again, Mr. Krajisnik, it refers to the operation of the

6 Manjaca camp at -- in June of 1992, where prisoners from various

7 municipalities were sent after being captured or arrested?

8 A. Is your question whether I knew about this?

9 Q. Well, the first question is that -- in -- that is an accurate

10 reflection of those documents in so far as you know, isn't it?

11 A. I don't know about any of these things. A witness was here from

12 Petrovac. He told you about this and he explained this whole situation to

13 you and he told you that I was not in contact with them. Jovo Radojko. I

14 didn't know about any of these things that you asked me about, so far, and

15 no one contacted me in that regard. I didn't know about a single one of

16 these things.

17 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, by late May and -- well, let me -- during the

18 course of your examination-in-chief, I noted, on May 23rd, Mr. Stewart

19 asked you about camps, and he confronted you with some of the testimony by

20 ambassador Okun, about the establishment of camps in -- by June of 1992,

21 and the -- what he called the lengthy and painful discussion among the

22 humanitarian agencies with the Bosnian Serb leadership about what to do

23 with the people because it's a terrible moral dilemma. You indicated--

24 this is about 5422 is where this passage starts, "I learned that here and

25 I don't challenge that."

1 So, by -- my question is, Mr. Krajisnik, by late May and certainly

2 by June, the international community was concerned, deeply concerned,

3 about the existence of camps in which Muslims and Croats were held, and

4 about expulsions of Muslims, and that concern was made known to the

5 Bosnian Serb leadership.

6 A. Well, I've already said to you that I was never involved in this,

7 and that I wasn't even informed about it. I gave you documents here

8 stating that Drljaca himself said that there are no camps in their area.

9 At the end of July the Minister of the MUP is asking whether there are any

10 camps in their area. If he didn't flow about it, how could I know? I

11 knew about prisoners in general, that they were supposed to be exchanged,

12 and but I don't know where they were, where the camps were, who

13 established the camps, none of that, and that's what I said to Stewart

14 too. Who opened Susica, Batkovici, Manjaca, I didn't know anything about

15 that. I didn't know that these camps existed.

16 Q. We are going to go through this but in connection with your

17 assertion that at the end of July, the Minister of the MUP was asking

18 Drljaca about camps and wasn't told about it, why don't we turn quickly to

19 tab 297?

20 A. No. He asked Mr. Zupljanin and Zupljanin asked Drljaca. I

21 provided that material here. That's what I have, and I don't even know

22 whether that's accurate either. I gave it to you on that CD.

23 Q. I understood you to be asserting that in so far as you were aware,

24 the MUP, either at the regional level or at the republic level was unaware

25 of Omarska, Keraterm, and Trnopolje, at the end of July because Drljaca

1 was denying that they existed.

2 A. No. There is what I said. I did not know about a single camp and

3 in order to prove that to you, that the Minister of the MUP could not even

4 have informed me about this, I gave you the papers that I found here. I

5 didn't have them then. Where he is receiving misinformation stating that

6 there are no camps in Prijedor. Now, whether the minister knew or not, I

7 don't know. But on the basis of the papers, I saw that he didn't.

8 Q. Well, we'll look at other documents reflecting what the minister

9 did or didn't know but for now I just want you to look at the document at

10 tab 297 which will need a number.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1245, Your Honours.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. P1245, Your Honours is a dispatch dated 1 August 1992 from Simo

15 Drljaca, the chief of the public security station, to the Ministry of the

16 Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to the army of

17 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and to the Banja Luka

18 security services centre, informing them that at a meeting held on July

19 24th, 1992, the War Presidency of the Prijedor municipal assembly adopted

20 a decision, number provided, pursuant to which the reserve police force

21 presently employed should be greatly reduced and the security for the

22 Keraterm, Trnopolje, and Omarska reception centres provided by the army.

23 So it would seem, Mr. Krajisnik, that Mr. Drljaca, far from

24 keeping the existence of Keraterm, Trnopolje and Omarska a secret, was

25 communicating with the Ministry of the Interior, at both republic and

1 regional levels about its existence and -- about their existence and

2 operation.

3 A. Maybe you couldn't read all of this because it's in Cyrillic but

4 it says we do not have the possibility to send it. That's what is added

5 on to the original. He probably didn't manage to send it.

6 Q. We'll see other communications about the camps in western Bosnia

7 but it is clear that he --

8 A. I don't know whether he sent it. I'm just reading out what's

9 written here. And I know what I saw. The decision, I mean. I mean, I

10 don't know whether he reported about this. Maybe he did. But the

11 minister would not send him this question, asking him to brief him about

12 whether there are any camps; there are not. I mean, that is a bit

13 strange.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, from the document itself, there may exist

15 some doubt on whether it was sent due to the handwriting.

16 MR. TIEGER: And I would say to Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour, there

17 is no doubt however that Mr. Drljaca has any intent on keeping it a secret

18 and there is no doubt from the document that he understands that all of

19 the intended recipients know about the existence of these camp, isn't that

20 right? Whether this particular document reached them or not.

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I sat here and listened to the last 15

22 minutes. Mr. Krajisnik is being asked question after question about

23 documents he really can't answer. He -- and that last question was a

24 culmination of that line of cross-examination and was no more than a

25 veiled comment wrapped up in a question. My learned friend in fact gave

1 the game away by saying, "and I would say to Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour."

2 That really shows where this cross-examination is going. It's comment,

3 not proper cross-examination. The witness can't answer most of these

4 questions in reality.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Josse, there is a problem. One could not

6 exclude for the possibility that the witness could answer such questions

7 or comment on the material, for example by saying in the 1st of August

8 1992, Mr. Drljaca was having a party in Hannover rather than -- so I do

9 agree with you that the matter could be dealt with in one general

10 question, which -- of which we have heard the answer several times, that

11 is that Mr. Krajisnik didn't know anything about the existence of camps,

12 the establishment of camps, adding camps to existing camps, he was not

13 involved and he was not informed about it. At the same time, if

14 Mr. Tieger would not put at least to the witness these documents, then he

15 would also deprive the witness from pointing at matters he does know,

16 which cast a certain light on these documents.

17 So therefore, Mr. Tieger, perhaps when you summarise them and say

18 doesn't this reflect, et cetera, et cetera. If Mr. Krajisnik is not aware

19 of the documents, we can read what the documents say and of course we can

20 read the documents in context with the other documents. So to some extent

21 I do agree that if I say well, it's uncertain whether it was sent or not

22 that you comment on it. Of course, it could have been put in a question

23 form as well, to say the fact that it has not been sent, does that mean in

24 your view that Mr. Drljaca, by drafting or at least formulating this

25 dispatch, whether that could in any way be -- or whether the witness has

1 any reason to understand this to be anything else than what it obviously

2 does, that is to teach other people about what happened. To some extent I

3 agree with you, to some extent I also do not because at a later stage, the

4 Prosecution might be blamed for not having put it to the witness. But

5 perhaps with a little bit less comment it would do well.

6 MR. JOSSE: Briefly with respect, I agree and accept what

7 Your Honour has just said and as the Court is well aware, the Defence are

8 anxious that as many documents as possible are put to Mr. Krajisnik during

9 the course of his examination regardless who -- of who is asking the

10 question.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. JOSSE: So that extent I endorse what Your Honour has said.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course there was some comments on my

14 side as well that we should not use -- we should not use the document

15 to -- well, to put things in it which everyone who reads the documents can

16 read and so interpretation of the documents, if Mr. Krajisnik can't give

17 it, the Chamber is perfectly able to read it and also deduce from your

18 questions what are the most relevant portions and what you're mainly

19 interested to hear comments on. Please proceed.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just add something. The

22 documents that I presented bear this same date, and he says that there are

23 no camps there. The month was August. You have it there. Those were the

24 documents that I received. But I didn't know of them before either.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So neither the confirming nor the denying

1 report, your testimony is, Mr. Krajisnik, is that you were aware of them

2 at the time. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I beg your pardon. I

4 believe that Trnopolje, Keraterm, and Omarska existed. Now I know. But I

5 didn't know at the time. That's the only thing that I'm saying. I'm not

6 denying that.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. Please turn to tab 258, Mr. Krajisnik. That is P583, tab 52.

9 P583, tab 52 is a letter dated May 24th, 1992, from the Prime Minister of

10 Republika Srpska, Branko Djeric, to James Baker?

11 A. That 258? Sorry, it says 253, and I found 258.

12 Q. Yes, 258 is the correct tab.

13 A. Yes, yes, sorry.

14 Q. As I indicated that's a letter drafted May 24th, 1992, from Prime

15 Minister Djeric to James Baker, the Secretary of state of the United

16 States, and he begins by stating, "We have just received the most

17 disturbing news about decisions of the ministerial conference of NATO in

18 Lisbon, Portugal, suggesting the use of force against Serbian population

19 in Bosnia and Herzegovina." And then he goes on to discuss the issues

20 that have prompted the suggestions that force might be employed against

21 Serbs. In the last paragraph of the English, and also the last paragraph

22 of the B/C/S, on the first page, Your Honours, and Mr. Krajisnik, Prime

23 Minister Djeric states, "You can rest assured that Serbian side is holding

24 no hostages, operating no concentration camps, and is not killing unarmed

25 civilians in Bosnia. The reports alleging such crimes, appearing in the

1 US press and elsewhere are not based on facts.

2 Mr. Krajisnik, this document reflects the awareness of the Bosnian

3 Serb leadership, including but not limited to Dr. Djeric, about the

4 allegations by the international community that the Bosnian Serbs were

5 rounding people up, putting them in camps, and the concern by the Bosnian

6 Serbs that the international community might intervene as a result.

7 A. I don't know about this letter either. But the Prime Minister

8 wrote this letter on the basis of somethings that were written in the

9 press of the United States and he is denying that there are camps and that

10 there are killings. That's probably his knowledge. Mr. Djeric certainly

11 knew this as far as I know him. That is to say, his knowledge was that

12 there were no concentration camps.

13 Q. And no one brought to your attention, Mr. Krajisnik, the "most

14 disturbing news," that the international community was contemplating the

15 use of force against Serbs because of allegations of Bosnian Serb crimes

16 against Muslims?

17 A. I don't remember. I know that there was this threat by NATO but I

18 don't remember the time. Certainly there was a threat all the time,

19 because we were illegal and the Muslim side was the legal authority in

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, for some parties. And there was always something that

21 was brought up. I also brought you documents about this propaganda that

22 was carried out, that there was intentional propaganda coming from a

23 centre, at that time, in that period, you can look it up in the documents

24 that I provided. There is a video clip too. At that time, I didn't know

25 about that. But I'm telling you, other people were involved in these

1 matters and they responded appropriately. I never wrote this letter. I

2 didn't read this press after all, but I heard a lot of information and

3 misinformation, a lot. We were attacked all the time. We were being

4 blamed all the time. We, the Serbs. That is true.

5 I understand Mr. Djeric's letter to mean that he is justifying

6 himself, saying that he was not aware of any such thing at all. That is

7 the way I understand his letter.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't know how long the Court wishes

9 to go but I wouldn't be loath to begin a question with 30 seconds

10 remaining before the break.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll have a break first --

12 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I know that Mr. Krajisnik is going to

13 read tab 191. The Defence were going to ask to go and see Mr. Krajisnik

14 about matters unrelated to his evidence. I mentioned it earlier to my

15 learned friends. Mr. Stewart should be in the building by now and is

16 going to accompany me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're asking for more time for the break?

18 MR. JOSSE: I'm not, Your Honour. Mr. Krajisnik could read 191,

19 overnight, frankly and make any comment about it tomorrow morning. That's

20 what I would suggest.

21 MR. TIEGER: Well, and my suggestion would be, if -- it appeared

22 to me Mr. Krajisnik was going to take the break to read the document,

23 maybe the visit by Mr. Josse and Mr. Stewart could be delayed until after

24 court so we don't lose any additional time.

25 JUDGE ORIE: There might be a problem in transportation.

1 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know. I'd prefer Mr. Krajisnik to read 191

3 now so that we do not forget about it and tomorrow have to refresh our

4 memories about what happened.

5 MR. JOSSE: I understand, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: But I take it that it would not take more -- from

7 what I saw, most of the issues in that interview are not directly related

8 to the portion put to Mr. Krajisnik.

9 So Mr. Krajisnik, if you would start reading the last -- well, the

10 last one or two issues and then start having a glance at the other issues,

11 because there are headings always, what it is about, and see whether you

12 can fit this in and have a short meeting with Mr. Stewart and Mr. Josse as

13 well.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, what was it? What was the

15 number? Sorry.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was --

17 MR. TIEGER: 191, Your Honour. I'll double check.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President? I brought you some

19 documents today. Namely when Prevlaka was handed over. That was what was

20 in dispute yesterday. I brought a document about where the Serbs were

21 supposed to have access to the sea. That was a subject of the debate here

22 yesterday. That's Owen's book which also exists in English.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore I gave it to the parties to see whether

24 Defence counsel and Prosecution would consider it useful to bring it to

25 our attention. If they do not revisit the matter, we might have a look at

1 it and see whether we are interested in it. But to be quite fair to the

2 parties, the issue of the access of the sea was not considered such as we

3 discussed yesterday, that we would spend much more time on that because it

4 seems that the same is to some extent true for Sarajevo as well, is among

5 the strategic goals are the ones who were -- are less linked to what is

6 the core of this case. Sarajevo, of course, is different from the access

7 to the sea but especially the access to the sea was not something that we

8 are seeking much more information about.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Zimmermann's statement, I

10 brought it here in its entirety. It's very important because it's

11 different from what the mere excerpt shows and I also brought a video of

12 Mr. Zimmermann because that was the Prosecutor's argument.

13 MR. TIEGER: I'm just urging the Court, Your Honour, not to take

14 up time with a recital of what's been provided us here on paper. If we'd

15 all --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that the procedure, that respect is

17 clear, and the Court, of course, takes the [indiscernible] point,

18 Mr. Krajisnik, that if there is anything in that material which is not yet

19 in evidence and what really could assist in your Defence, that they will

20 certainly not overlook it. At the same time, the Chamber does not exclude

21 for the possibility that it will ask for material, as we did before.

22 We will have a break until five minutes to 1.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, shortly before the break, we had looked at Prime

3 Minister Djeric's letter --

4 MR. JOSSE: I am very sorry. Is the Chamber not going to ask

5 Mr. Krajisnik?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I had forgotten that. I apologise.

7 Mr. Krajisnik, did you have an opportunity to read 19 -- tab

8 number 191?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have read it, glanced through it

10 either, but I have something to say in connection with that document

11 briefly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you do that, briefly, please proceed.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very briefly. That is an interview

14 related to the blockade imposed by Serbia on Republika Srpska, and the

15 words that I have uttered there are inappropriate and really, it's almost

16 as if it wasn't me who said them. But I can't deny them now. Even if I

17 had uttered them in anger, that's not very smart, because for as long as

18 my memory serves me, I never advocated such a position.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

20 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. One housekeeping matter.

22 Yesterday the Court asked for still images of the map video. We have

23 those here and can provide them to the usher.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. I think there is no objection

25 that we do not give any specific number to it. It's just an aid to what

1 we --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I have a copy?

3 MR. JOSSE: And could I look at one as well, please?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps I could have Your Honour's for a moment.

6 Perhaps I could have Judge Hanoteau's just for a moment. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. That's fine if the Prosecution -- if they

9 have a copy for me later that's fine. I'm grateful.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, as I indicated before, shortly before we recessed,

13 we had looked at Prime Minister Djeric's letter of May 24th 1992,

14 concerning allegations by and concerns of the international community. I

15 would now like to turn to some documents --

16 A. Just remind you -- remind me, which tab is it?

17 Q. I'm about to do so. I'm not going to return to that document. We

18 are going to look at some events that followed.

19 A. All right.

20 Q. So if we could turn to tab 268?

21 MR. TIEGER: That's P64, P65, tab 157, Your Honours.

22 Q. The minutes of the 5th session of the Presidency of the Serbian

23 Republic of BH on 10 June 1992, present, Dr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic,

24 Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Djeric. As we see, at the very

25 beginning of the document, after the attendees are listed, at the

1 beginning of the session, the Presidency reviewed information received

2 during the night on the situation at the front, and reports of the

3 international public.

4 Mr. Krajisnik, that's a reflection of the continuing concern about

5 what was being reported and alleged about, among other things, Bosnian

6 Serb activities during the war, correct?

7 A. No. No. It's simply -- I told you, somebody would come with

8 certain information and inform us about what was happening in a particular

9 area. It could be a representative of the government or I don't know who,

10 somebody who was informed, but it was -- it was more like a piece of

11 information being shared, but you're right, we were interested in what was

12 going on, whether we had lost a municipality somewhere.

13 Q. And the reference to reports of the international public, in

14 contrast to the information received about the situation at the front, is

15 a reflection of the continuing interest in what the international

16 community was saying and alleging and perceiving?

17 A. Certainly. Mr. Koljevic or I don't know who else would brief us

18 about what he knew, what he may have seen on television or heard, or had

19 found out in his contacts with the international community, with regard to

20 allegations and I don't know what else.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before we continue, there is a -- the

22 "international public" is the translation of the words and then it says,

23 with a question mark, foreign press. I would like to know from the

24 interpreters whether this is another way of translating or whether it is a

25 kind of interpretation of what may have been meant with it although not

1 reflected by the words itself.

2 Could the interpreters -- you have both the B/C/S and the English

3 translation? Yes. Could you enlighten us as to what the question mark

4 exactly should mean to us?

5 THE INTERPRETER: The translation given here, international

6 public, or reports of the international public, is correct, and it's

7 literal and it does probably refer to foreign press and media.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But -- so the words public is not publications

9 or something like that but just to give it some sense with a question

10 mark, you have suggested that it might have to be understood in this way.

11 Yes. Thank you.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. And looking at the very bottom of the page, in English, and page 2

15 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, immediately below the listing of the

16 persons appointed commissioners, the minutes indicate that at the session,

17 the Presidency issued the following assignments, including, as we turn to

18 the second page of the English, the third entry, to Dr. Djeric, and the

19 second assignment, which Dr. Djeric received was, for the government to

20 report on detainees with proposal of measures.

21 Mr. Krajisnik, was that a response to the information received

22 about the situation at the front, the reports of the international public

23 or foreign press, or some other information?

24 A. I don't know what this refers to but it's obvious that this body

25 is not informed and requires information from Mr. Djeric on any issue at

1 all. I know there were prisons, but I don't know what the conditions in

2 those prisons were, prisons opened by the assembly, the government, but

3 there were other prisons apart from that.

4 Q. So whatever the source of the information prompting that

5 assignment, the Presidency was interested in receiving a report on

6 detainees along with proposals of measures to be taken in connection with

7 that issue?

8 A. Yes, yes. And that was mentioned on many occasions later, as

9 well. But if you would like to move on from this record, these minutes, I

10 would like an opportunity to say something briefly before you do.

11 Q. I'm going to be moving to another document from the same date so,

12 if --

13 A. All right. I would just like to say.

14 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, sorry, if it's on the same subject we are

15 addressing right now. The subject, the issue of detainees and --

16 A. Yes, it concerns these minutes.

17 Q. No, no, no.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No. The question was mainly about the issue raised

19 during this meeting about detainees and the international -- reports from

20 international --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not about prisoners, let's

22 move on. I wanted to mention Aleksa Buha.

23 MR. TIEGER: Let's turn next, then, to tab 270 which is P64, P65,

24 tab 156, and P583, tab 20.

25 Now, these are the minutes from the 25th government session held

1 on the same date, chaired by Mr. Djeric, and if we turn to page 3 of the

2 English and page 2 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, under item 7, which

3 appears at the bottom of page 2 of the English and then it states at the

4 top of page 3, current issues, so in the discussion of current issues we

5 see that the following conclusions were made. That the Ministry of

6 Justice should make a report about prisoners. This report should pay

7 special attention on treatment of civilian population, prisoners of war,

8 accommodation, food, et cetera. The report would be considered by the

9 government after which it would be submitted to the Presidency of the

10 republic.

11 Now, Mr. Krajisnik, that was Mr. Djeric's immediate response to

12 the assignment he had received at the session of the Presidency the same

13 day, correct?

14 A. It could be the other way around, that he said what he would do

15 and it was recorded that way, but on the same day, I don't know which

16 session came first. It could be, you're really right, this consultative

17 meeting could have been in the morning and this session later. Yes, you

18 are right. He was given that task and he entrusted it to the Ministry of

19 Justice.

20 Q. Now, if we turn to tab 272, and that is P64A, P583, tab 23, these

21 are the minutes from the 28th government meeting held on June 15th, five

22 days after the government meeting we have just looked at.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarify case on the previous matter

24 before you continue, Mr. Tieger? The -- in item 7 it says that the

25 Minister of Justice should make a report about prisoners, and then it

1 continues, this report should pay special attention on treatment of

2 civilian population, prisoners of war, accommodation, food, et cetera. It

3 gives the impression that civilian population is an issue when you're

4 talking about prisoners. Could you comment on that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you saying that to me?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I'm just telling you what the language I

7 would say suggests by putting civilian population in an item which deals

8 with prisoners. It doesn't say civilian criminals or something like that.

9 It doesn't say -- it says treatment of civilian population as being a part

10 of a report on prisoners.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just need to find this, current

12 issues.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The first one. Tab 270.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand this as follows,

15 Your Honour: The Ministry of Justice should prepare a brief about

16 detained persons, detainees, in which, meaning in which brief, special

17 attention should be paid to the issue of treatment of civilian population.

18 Then prisoners of war. Then accommodation, food and such like. He refers

19 to a brief where all this should be covered. It could be that the

20 prisoners are in prison but he could also be speaking about the treatment

21 of civilian population. I don't know which is true, but civilian

22 population is mentioned here, but it says this brief should cover or pay

23 separately or pay special attention to the treatment of civilian

24 population. The best thing to do would be to take that report that they

25 made and see what they did, from that we will see how they performed this

1 task. I mean, the commission who received that task.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was asking you this question because it -- at

3 least this language suggests, and of course we -- the Chamber will have to

4 decide on whether that is a suggestion we would follow, that when you're

5 writing about prisoners, that this would include civilian population and

6 therefore to be understood as civilian population in prisons, which -- and

7 I'm just putting it to you so that you have a fair opportunity to comment

8 to it -- which suggests also that in the documents on what was -- that the

9 document -- this document, which tells us whether at least those present

10 and that's of course not everyone but that at least it was understood that

11 reports on prisoners would have to do something with civilian population,

12 which might be easily understood as civilian population in prisons.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can understand it in different

14 ways. I'm just telling you I don't know what this is but I'm trying to

15 explain that if they are sending it to a commission, they don't know what

16 is there in prisons, whether there are civilians, whether there are

17 others. It's the report that shows what the commission had found. So

18 it's best to take the report and see if there are any civilians. I'm not

19 saying that your suggestion is wrong. I am just saying I don't know. I'm

20 not denying it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, I had asked you to turn to tab 272, the government

24 session held five days later, and in particular, if we could turn to

25 agenda item 10, on page 4 of the English, and page 01245374 at the very

1 top of your version, Mr. Krajisnik, and page 10 appears in approximately

2 the middle of page 4 of the English, Your Honours, which states, "The

3 government has considered the proposed report. It has been concluded that

4 the issue of prisoners exchange is extremely important, complex and

5 delicate, and that if sufficient attention is not paid to it, it can cause

6 a number of negative consequences for the whole republic. It has been

7 agreed that a working group consisting of Professor Branko Djeric, Milan

8 Trbojevic, Dr. Dragan Kalinic, Mico Stanisic, Bogdan Subotic and Momcilo

9 Mandic should consider all the aspects of the prisoner exchange problem

10 and that they should propose systematic and other solutions taking into

11 account our and international regulations. It is obvious that solving

12 this problem is urgent and that the regulations and concrete measures for

13 solving of this issue should be proposed as soon as possible."

14 So, Mr. Krajisnik, it appears that five days later the government

15 received the report related to prisoners, and having received that report,

16 it concluded that if it wasn't attended to, it could cause a number of

17 negative consequences, indeed, that were extremely important, for the

18 whole republic.

19 A. I looked up the agenda, and this is a report by Mr. Colovic. Look

20 at the agenda and you will see. That's what was discussed. It

21 says, "Brief on the improvement of the central commission for exchange."

22 Q. And -- well, Mr. Krajisnik, the central commission for exchange

23 was under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice, correct? We've

24 seen that in earlier evidence.

25 A. Well, just now you saw the report of Mr. Colovic. That was on the

1 agenda. We discussed a moment ago that commission, and it was said that

2 measures should be taken to improve. That's the material we read before

3 the break. It says, "central commission for the exchange of prisoners."

4 It's on the agenda.

5 Q. Well, let's just try to see what's on the agenda and what's not.

6 First of all, Mr. Colovic is not present at the session on June 15th,

7 correct?

8 A. I don't know whether he was present, but that brief was there.

9 It's written here.

10 Q. The Ministry of Justice was tasked on June 15th to make a report

11 about prisoners. That we agree on. We've just also agreed that the

12 commission for exchange was under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of

13 Justice, and you previously indicated, in looking at those orders, and

14 documents we looked at this morning, that the commission for exchange had

15 responsibility for prisoners of war and detainees, which included both

16 prisoners of war and civilians, correct?

17 A. No, no. I didn't comment on it at all. Please, just read the

18 agenda, and look at the heading that refers to the document of Rajko

19 Colovic. The same one as the one on the agenda, where he warns that many

20 things have to be taken care of, regulated, et cetera. Whether he was

21 actually at the session, I don't know, but they could not have prepared

22 that report in five days. They made it later. I mean the report about

23 prisoners.

24 Q. The Colovic order of June 6th indicates, among other things, that

25 all information about prisoners is to be submitted to the commission for

1 exchange and that no one is to be released without prior order of the

2 commission for exchange. You can look at that if you want or you can take

3 my word for it. But if that's the case, then doesn't it make sense,

4 Mr. Krajisnik, that when the Ministry of Justice was tasked to make a

5 report about prisoners, they would consult with or give the task to the

6 commission for exchange?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, are you denying that this is the agenda? Do you

8 continue to insist on your theory? I am trying to tell you for the third

9 time now that this is the agenda. How to improve the work of the central

10 commission.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I don't think that there is any

12 disagreement that Mr. Tieger think that is when you're referring -- yes,

13 but you're making a gesture as if all questions have been resolved by

14 saying this is the agenda. I'm afraid that it's more complex, and

15 Mr. Tieger does not only refer to the agenda but also refers to what he

16 reads elsewhere. Please proceed.

17 MR. TIEGER:

18 Q. All right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. Let's turn to tab 274, Mr. Krajisnik.

22 A. I admitted when I make a mistake and I always say what is correct

23 but I think that it is impermissible for us to move the wrong way all the

24 time, but okay, I'll go ahead. What was it that you said? 274?

25 Q. Well, let me -- okay. Your Honour, I would like to move quickly

1 through this but perhaps one more question would be appropriate. I had

2 asked you a question, Mr. Krajisnik, about the Ministry of Justice, the

3 commission for exchange, and their relationship in connection with the

4 tasking of the Ministry of Justice to produce a report about what was

5 happening with prisoners, both civilian and prisoners of war. So my

6 question is: Is it -- is there no connection between a report by the

7 commission for exchange, if indeed that -- a report about improving the

8 work of the central commission for the exchange of prisoners of war,

9 detained persons, et cetera, and the interest in -- by the government and

10 the interest by the Presidency in finding out what was happening to

11 prisoners of war and civilian detainees? That's the question.

12 A. Instead of me getting angry, you're getting angry. I assure you

13 that these are two different questions, different questions. The

14 Presidency instructed the government to give a report on the detainees.

15 That is one thing. And they looked at the subject matter that had to do

16 with detainees. And they said that the work of the central commission had

17 to be improved. The government submitted reports on prisoners. There are

18 three reports here, Eastern Bosnia, Eastern Herzegovina, Western Bosnia

19 and you've got all the reports here based on those instructions. This was

20 not a report on detainees, on prisoners.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

22 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is no. The question was whether there is

23 no connection and then your answer is there is no connection.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has nothing to do with it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you explained why you take -- why you gave

1 that answer.

2 MR. TIEGER:

3 Q. We'll come to those reports that you just mentioned Mr. Krajisnik,

4 but perhaps it's useful to admit to the Judges right now that those

5 reports were commissioned in and not received until -- they were

6 commissioned in August of 1992, after the international community gained

7 access to Omarska, and they were received in August of 1992 and October of

8 1992. They don't have any relationship to this?

9 A. You should say what it is you want and I'll explain to it to you

10 very nicely and I'm telling you that this is not correct. When the

11 Presidency was informed, they immediately asked the government to submit a

12 report. And they reacted to all the reports they received. Not only if

13 the international community said that but even if a single individual had

14 said that. I'm so sorry but I cannot confirm your thesis. After all I'm

15 not familiar with it but I'm telling you that these two things do not mix.

16 Q. Please turn to tab 274. Tab 274 is P65, tab 163.

17 A. You said to 74?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes, please go ahead.

20 Q. I want to look at this very quickly and then turn to 275. Tab 274

21 contains the minutes of the 7th session of the Presidency of the Serbian

22 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 16th of June 1992, and again we see

23 present, Dr. Karadzic, Mrs. Plavsic, Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, and Dr.

24 Djeric. Item number 1 is, at the session the Presidency was briefed on

25 the situation in the field and took a position regarding daily activities.

1 So that happened the date after the receipt by the government and its

2 formation of a commission of its highest-ranking members concerning the

3 issue of prisoners. Did the discussion on the situation in the field on

4 the 16th concern, among other things, the problem of prisoners exchange

5 that was so important, complex and delicate that it triggered the

6 establishment of a commission consisting of the government's

7 highest-ranking members?

8 A. My lawyer cautioned me that I should not get angry at the

9 Prosecutor because you're just doing your job. So I will not do that.

10 This has nothing to do with prisoners. And a commission has to be set up

11 to see what the situation is regarding prisoners, and the government

12 actually did that. And they got a report. You don't get reports over the

13 telephone.

14 I apologise to the Prosecutor. He's doing his job.

15 This has nothing to do with anything. Everybody was receiving

16 some kind of information from the field but this is agency information or

17 whatever. I don't know how to call it. We were interested in who, what,

18 where, how.

19 Q. And just when did Dr. Djeric get back to the Presidency concerning

20 the requested and tasked report on detainees with proposals -- with

21 proposal of measures?

22 A. The question is not phrased properly. Perhaps the interpretation

23 is not good. I'm sorry. Could you please rephrase your question or could

24 you, rather, put it again so that I'd see what is going on? It's as if

25 Djeric had asked for something. What is this?

1 Q. On June 10th, the president tasked Dr. Djeric to obtain a report

2 on detainees with proposals of measures. On June 15th, he received a

3 report indicating a problem so -- with regard to prisoners, so delicate

4 and important that it jeopardised the republic. You're telling me that on

5 June 16th, when Dr. Djeric was at the meeting of the Presidency, he didn't

6 say anything about the prisoner problem. So I'm asking you just when did

7 he get back to you in response to that assignment?

8 A. The report on prisoners did not come in on the 15th of June. No.

9 Much later. That's a report on the problems of the central commission.

10 Please, that's the way it is. For sure. I don't know what's written in

11 English, though.

12 Q. Please turn to tab 275, which is P65, P583, tab 24. These are the

13 minutes from the 30th session of the Serb Republic of BH government held

14 on 17 June 1992 chaired by Dr. Djeric. And, Your Honours, if you can turn

15 to agenda item 10, which begins at the bottom of page 5 but actually

16 appears on page 6?

17 JUDGE ORIE: We found it.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. And Mr. Krajisnik, that's at page 5 of your version.

20 A. Yes, I found it.

21 Q. Okay. That's at -- okay. That is something I wanted to bring

22 your attention to but not at this moment. Please turn to the very last

23 item, page 7 of the English and page 6 of your version, Mr. Krajisnik.

24 A. Yes, I've read it. Now, that's what I'm telling you.

25 Q. "The government has concluded that all measures be taken promptly

1 for a more efficient work of the republic commission for the exchange of

2 prisoners. With regard to this fact it is necessary to secure the

3 accommodation and other conditions according to a previous decision of the

4 government, the Ministry of Justice is in charge."

5 A. Yes, that is what I was telling you. The commission and the

6 conditions for supporting their work. See? The commissions are moving

7 out in the field to see what the situation was like in the field.

8 Q. So the complex and sensitive and important problem referred to in

9 the government session of 15 June was the same problem that you had

10 referred to in your testimony in chief, that is that prisoners and

11 detainees were not being exchanged fast enough with the result that many

12 were remaining in prison and were, as you put it, in your testimony, easy

13 prey for many irresponsible people in terms of abuse, is that it?

14 A. Yes, that's my comment. The comment that I got subsequently. But

15 I knew that international humanitarian organisations were acting as

16 intermediaries in order to reach an agreement on an exchange of all for

17 all. It's a problem if you have prisoners. Of course.

18 And another thing, Mr. Prosecutor, there are also dead bodies of

19 ours on their territory. That's a problem. When you have prisoners, you

20 want to have an exchange all for all. You don't know how many there are

21 any way. And later on there were exchanges of lists, too. Everything.

22 But that was done by the commission separately. Here, well, I establish

23 this because anybody can read this.

24 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, as the success of the Bosnian Serb

25 military forces increased, so did the problem of prisoners and detainees

1 mount and increase as well, correct?

2 A. Throughout the war, we wanted to exchange prisoners, all for all.

3 We believed that prisoners should be exchanged. One of our prisoners

4 should be released even for ten of theirs. They always wanted to have

5 provisional solutions, partial solutions, but throughout the war, we

6 wanted prisoners to be released. And that, response to your question.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I just was about to say that it is not

8 a response to the question of Mr. Tieger. Mr. Tieger said, once the

9 success of the military forces increased, whether the problem of the

10 prisoners increased as well? Not asking what the problems were in

11 resolving that problem but whether the problem of prisoners increased

12 together with the success of the military forces.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It did not increase, Mr. President.

14 It was always the same. Regardless of whether you had one or ten. It was

15 always the same. It was big.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

17 MR. TIEGER:

18 Q. Can we turn quickly to the 17th session of the Bosnian Serb

19 Assembly? I just want to look quickly at two portions. This was the

20 session held on July 24th to 26th, latter part of July 1992 and just

21 quickly Mr. Krajisnik, turning to page 14 of the English and page 11 of

22 your version, and Your Honour without line numbering it's a little

23 difficult to identify that portion but it's just slightly below the

24 precise middle of the page on page 14. Where Dr. Karadzic states, "Today

25 we control all of our territories and perhaps also --

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's the minus one situation there, Mr. Tieger?

2 Please proceed. I found it.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Today we control all of ore territories and perhaps also some

5 territories that will be given to other national communities once a deal

6 is reached." And then I'd also like you to turn, Mr. Krajisnik, to

7 page --.

8 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honours, 32 of the English.

9 Q. And, Mr. Krajisnik, that's at page 31 of your version, and I

10 suspect, given the minus one problem, probably page 31 of the English for

11 the Court as well. It's the final portion of Mr. Milanovic's remarks.

12 And probably about 20 lines up from the bottom, where he states, "We have

13 a huge problem with captured people of other nationalities. We have

14 hundreds and thousands of these prisoners."

15 Now, Mr. Krajisnik --

16 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honours, did you find that section?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we found it.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

19 MR. TIEGER:

20 Q. That's a reflection of two things, Mr. Krajisnik, isn't it? The

21 continuing military success of the Bosnian Serb forces and the ongoing

22 problem, indeed, as Mr. Milanovic said, huge problem of captured people of

23 other nationalities, both of which were brought to the attention of the

24 assembly in July 1992?

25 A. Yes. And at the London Conference we agreed on an exchange, all

1 for all. It was immediately after this.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, which tells me that we have

5 to finish for the day.

6 Mr. Tieger, the Chamber told the Prosecution that they should head

7 for finishing by tomorrow. At the same time, we have to consider, since

8 we lost quite sometime today, whether it would be fair to just add one

9 thing and we'll also further look at the statistics as we did for the

10 Defence, to see whether the Judges have taken more time than usual. I

11 mean, we are thinking in terms of days, but today we lost half a day, just

12 as in the beginning with the Defence. Also the Chamber has been a bit

13 more strict and not -- I think we don't have the full 60 per cent. So

14 therefore, we will consider whether some, and I'm hesitant to say, some

15 additional time will be granted in compensation for that, just as we did

16 compensate for a few matters for the Defence as well.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Krajisnik, I'd like to instruct you not to

19 speak with anyone about the testimony you have given or you are still

20 about to give, and we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same

21 courtroom.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to

23 be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of June

24 2006, at 9.00 a.m.

25