1 Friday, 7 July 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. A few small matters.
7 First of all, Mr. O'Sullivan, translation was done orally from what the
8 Chamber understands, just for your information since you asked for it.
9 Then the Chamber received follow-up information on what exactly happened
10 with flak jacket and handcuffs. Information is available to the parties.
11 We'll keep you updated.
12 WITNESS: BILJANA PLAVSIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Plavsic, I do understand that no handcuffs, no
15 flak jackets are applied any more and we received information on what
16 happened exactly earlier.
17 Then, Ms. Plavsic, we'll continued today and questions will be put
18 to you by the Prosecution and the Defence. I'd like to invite you to
19 focus your answers very much on what exactly was asked. If we need more
20 further contextual information the parties will certainly ask you for it.
21 But please first focus on the questions themselves which would certainly
22 help us to get through this as quickly as possible, which I understand you
23 also -- is also your wish.
24 Then needless to say that it's the responsibility, professional
25 responsibility of the parties to keep this focus and do whatever they're
1 professionally expected to do in order to achieve that.
2 Finally, Mrs. Plavsic, I'd like to remind you as I always do at
3 the beginning of a day that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
4 you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
5 Finally, the parties are, when I'm informed that the time reserved
6 yesterday that if the time allocated to the parties at this moment if they
7 would keep some time in reserve for later questions that they will decide
8 themselves how much time, of course, within certain limits to reserve and
9 we try, I said we try to finish today if possible.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just ask for guidance on that
11 because we seek guidance and clarification. The e-mail we received
12 yesterday evening, we confess, was a bit -- slightly puzzling to us.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I have not seen an e-mail of yesterday evening. I
14 didn't follow the e-mail exchange of messages.
15 MR. STEWART: It's in -- very short, Your Honour. It's so short
16 Your Honour won't have any difficulty. It was an e-mail from one of
17 Your Honour's legal officers and the key point was "the time allotted to
18 each one of the parties as explained in court today," no problem up to
19 that point, "includes any time for further cross." Do we --
20 JUDGE ORIE: You are supposed that I said yesterday one hour and
21 20 minutes for the Prosecution, two hours and 40 minutes for the Defence.
22 What we intended to say is that -- of course, you never know what kind of
23 questions will come up, but if you want to reserve some time for questions
24 and response to what the other party has asked that the party itself is
25 responsible for reserving that time. So that means that the -- it means
1 that if you would consider advise to reserve 20 minutes then you should
2 take one hour to start with and then of course there's 20 minutes left at
3 a later stage.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That's helpful guidance.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Mr. Tieger, Mr. Harmon, who is --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, interpreters note we would like to
8 introduce a correction to yesterday's transcript at page 43, line 19.
9 Instead of Karadzic full stop it should say Karadzic and Krajisnik full
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A correction was made to the transcript of
12 yesterday. The parties received it.
13 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
16 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Plavsic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Let me begin by what -- offering what may be reassurance to you
19 but just by way of an indication to the Court and the parties that I
20 expect to be very brief this morning and will only be asking you a
21 relatively few questions so if there's any degree of stress associated
22 with the anticipation of a lengthy questioning from the Prosecution, I
23 wanted to put your mind to rest at the outset.
24 I'd like to begin, however, with a slight procedural matter that I
25 raise the with the Court and with the parties earlier and that's with
1 respect to appears to be a translation error in the transcript of the
2 excerpted portions from Mrs. Plavsic's book. Mr. Stewart and Mr. Josse, I
3 believe, are already aware of that. It appears at page 10 of the
4 translated excerpts, which reflects an excerpt from the book beginning at
5 page 201. And it is the long paragraph that begins with the words
6 Cutileiro's plan. It's about 15 lines from the end of that paragraph and
7 it's the sentence that: "And the institutions in charge of obtaining this
8 information which were responsible for this, i.e., responsible people in
9 these institutions, thought they could only release this information to
10 the president of the municipality," is the current translation. That's
11 end quote. Looking at the B/C/S, I believe that the English translation
12 should properly read at the end of the sentence "president of the
13 Assembly." And it was suggested to me when I raised that with the court
14 officer and with the Defence that the most efficient way of addressing it
15 would be in the manner I'm doing so now, by bringing it to the attention
16 the Court. The Court could then ask the interpreters for the appropriate
18 JUDGE ORIE: Page 201. I did not --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it should read "The president of the
20 Assembly" in the original.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We receive confirmation now that it should
22 be "The president of the Assembly." Yes. That's confirmed which the
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, I see you looking in the book. Just by way of
1 explanation, it was only a question of how the language that appears in
2 your book was translated and there just seems to be a slip. It's now been
4 I wanted to ask you, Mrs. Plavsic, about a term you used in
5 connection with the body that was discussed during the course of your
6 interview and then appeared in your statement, and that is the body that
7 was referred to in the statement I believe at paragraphs 36 through 40 as
8 the Supreme Defence Council. In connection with that, I went back to the
9 transcript of the interview you had with Mr. Nielsen and looked in
10 particular at tape 8, page 9.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know. The witness doesn't -- does the
12 witness have the full transcript of the --
13 MR. TIEGER: I don't know, Your Honour. It's in English in any
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You read it to her.
16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I will.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have it. Mr. Tieger will read the literal
18 text as it has been transcribed from the audio, so please listen
20 MR. TIEGER: And for the benefit of the Court and the parties, the
21 portion I'm referring to is at tape 8, page 9, or if you have it
22 sequentially numbered as I do, it would be page -- I believe beginning at
23 page 171.
24 Q. And it might be better, Mrs. Plavsic, if I paraphrase this first
25 and see if you recall it because the thrust of it is not the precise
1 language but the exchange that took place more generally.
2 At that point you were first asked about meetings other than the
3 Presidency and Assembly that you attended with Mr. Krajisnik, and you
4 indicated that there was an abbreviation for something, and I think you
5 said it existed in peace and war in one state, and you were struggling for
6 the name of that body initially, and then it continued --
7 A. [In English] Yeah.
8 Q. And you seemed to recall at the bottom of that page that there
9 was -- it brought to mind a body that existed in Montenegro, and you
10 referred to Milo Dzukanovic in Montenegro. At that point you still it
11 hadn't recalled the particular name of the body you were trying to think
12 of in response to Mr. Nielsen's question, and then about five pages later
13 during the course of the discussion when -- when you started talking about
14 this further, Mr. Nielsen started to say, "this body that we don't," I
15 presume you were saying we don't have a name for, and then it seemed that
16 the term Supreme Defence Council at that point popped into your head.
17 Now, it does appear to be the case that in fact there is a
18 supreme -- body called the Supreme Defence Council in the SFRY and has
19 existed for some time, but we have not seen any records for a body known
20 as the supreme Defence council, a body by that precise name in the RS in
21 1992 through 1995, and I wanted you to take a look at this next document
22 which can be distributed. It's the minutes of the meeting of the Supreme
23 Command of the army of Republika Srpska held on 20 December, 1992.
24 And while that's being distributed I wanted to ask you one more
25 question, and that was it appeared also that you were indicated in the
1 interview and I believe in the statement as well, although I'd have to
2 double-check, that this particular body dealt in particular with the issue
3 of supplies and logistics for the army. Is that correct?
4 A. [Interpretation] I would like to explain one thing. If you
5 analyse the name Supreme Defence Council, and we also had another council
6 and you did encounter the name of that council here and that is the
7 political council of the SDS, we talked about terminology on the first
8 day. It's quite different when you have an institution that is named
9 council. The council counsels, but it's not binding. That's how it was
10 in the political council of the SDS. The political council of the SDS in
11 relation to a certain situation would say, "We would advise that
12 such-and-such a thing be done," but this was not binding on the SDS. In
13 the same way the Supreme Defence Council --
14 Q. And I appreciate that and it may be the question I have for you is
15 a little bit simpler than that rather than delving into the precise
16 functions of either body you mentioned just now. My question is simply in
17 light of the fact that you seem to be struggling a bit for the precise
18 name of the body when you first discussed it, I simply -- and then
19 remembered it as something to a body that existed in Serbia and Montenegro
20 or in SFRY by that name. I wanted to ask you if in fact the body you were
21 referring to was known as the Supreme Command rather than the Supreme
22 Defence Council and that's why I wanted to take a look at these -- at
23 these particular minutes, which --
24 A. No, no. That was the supreme Defence council. And now that you
25 were reading some parts of the transcript, I remember the moment when I
1 told Mr. Nilsson really. I can't remember, but I told him probably I will
2 remember it during the interview, and the whole process of my recollection
3 actually is evident from the transcript.
4 There is a clear difference between bodies that make decisions
5 such as the Supreme Command and the Supreme Defence Council. The Supreme
6 Defence Council provides advice or counsels, and I remember the topics
7 discussed at the Supreme Defence Council. Are we going to have money to
8 by saurkraut because that is the only source of vitamin C for the soldiers
9 during winter. Do we have shoes and so on. Let's say it would be a
10 logistics topic and General Djukic, who was in charge of that, he was the
11 one who would bring up the army requirements at the Supreme Defence
12 Council. It wasn't a body that -- I don't know -- that was in command of
13 the army.
14 Q. Do you remember when the body known as the Supreme Command was
16 A. I don't know. As far as the Supreme Command is concerned, there
17 was a Supreme Commander. When that body was organised, I don't know. I
18 think that when I fled to Pale it was already set up. There was a
19 government. The Assembly was there from much earlier. The Presidency as
20 of the 12th of May, the army on the May of 12th at that meeting in Banja
21 Luka, but I wasn't there. There as nothing strange about that, I think,
22 but I'm not sure whether that exists in other countries as well. But it
23 was, as you know, and I know -- I see that you know that there was such a
24 body in the SFRY and now reading in the papers I see the Supreme Defence
25 Council of Serbia, the Supreme Defence Council of Montenegro. This is the
1 information that I have.
2 In the literal sense of the word council, it's the one who gives
3 counsel. So a body that provides counsel is not a binding body.
4 Q. Just one minute. And just last question about that subject.
5 Apart from the existence the Supreme Commander, do you recall a body known
6 as the Supreme Command in RS in 1992 through 1995?
7 A. Are you asking me from 1992 to 1995?
8 Q. At any point in 1992 and then -- or at any point thereafter.
9 A. There was a Supreme Defence Council. The president of the
10 republic was the Supreme Commander.
11 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Plavsic. Now, one more subject I wanted to
12 address, and that's in reference to something in your statement and in
13 your interview. It appeared and I'm looking at paragraph 30 of your
14 interview and then I'll be looking at a portion of -- excuse me, paragraph
15 30 of your statement and I'll be looking at a portion of the interview.
16 You indicated your belief that some of the minutes of the
17 Presidency may have been written after, sometime after the meeting took
18 place and the events took place. Again, if I look back to the actual
19 interview that you had with Nilsson and that on tape 4 at page 15, I think
20 that would be -- again, I don't know if the parties have a sequential
21 version. It would be page 86 of the sequential version. You seem to
22 indicate there would be a couple of reasons why you felt that would be the
23 case. One was -- one was your recollection that a number of the minutes
24 indicate -- were signed by -- were signed by Dr. Karadzic as president
25 rather than president of the Presidency, and he wasn't president until
1 December 1992 or January 1993, as you said. And secondly, that you saw
2 some -- or you recalled some minutes that referred to the -- to Republika
3 Srpska rather than a Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you
4 recall that exchange during the course of your interview?
5 A. Of course. I remember very well because these papers, not just
6 the minutes but I also received from the Prosecution before my sentence
7 was passed I had the opportunity to see some decisions signed by
8 President Karadzic, and I remembered at the time what technical means we
9 had to write. At the time, I recall that we had two Olympia typewriters.
10 I -- I -- there was no computer, at least not in the beginning. So this
11 was something that interested me, so I looked into it. All the minutes
12 were usually not longer than one page. Also, they would begin by saying
13 the meeting began at 8.00 or 9.00, something like that. I'm telling you
14 this because of the sleeping patterns of Mr. Karadzic, his habit of
15 sleeping late. So it rarely started at that time. I'm almost sure that
16 it never started at that time. It even says what time the meeting
17 finished, implying that we had somebody who took the minutes. But it's
18 evident this was written by a person, probably the secretary in his office
19 who had a certain idea of how minutes should look. But when I asked the
20 question why were the minutes not being taken, I was told, well,
21 Mr. Karadzic just dictates the conclusions of the meetings to his
22 secretary later. That's how it was.
23 For such a serious situation, and even if it hadn't been that
24 serious, as far as I was concerned this for me was a strange, very casual
25 approach to that.
1 As for the signatures, I found six or seven only in the material I
2 received. When there was no Republika Srpska, it was called differently,
3 it would state Republika Srpska when Mr. Karadzic was still not President
4 of Republika Srpska but was the president of the Presidency. Sometimes in
5 the papers it would say the President of Republika Srpska, and it was my
6 impression, and I think I wrote that in my book as well, that it was my
7 impression that some of the material, the documents, I don't know how to
8 say it differently, but to say that it was manufactured or fabricated and
10 Q. Let me address very quickly, if I may, a number of the factors you
11 just mentioned. First of all, the minutes of the Presidency are available
12 and have been available to the Court and to the parties for quite a long
13 time. I took the opportunity to look through those minutes. I'm not
14 going to go through those with you one by one. That would be a lengthy
15 and I think quite unnecessary process, but the -- with respect to the
16 usage of Republika Srpska versus Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
17 Herzegovina, looking at those minutes they seem to reflect the following,
18 and again either the Defence or the Court can and no doubt will look at
19 this, that throughout the course of the minutes from the beginning in May
20 until -- throughout 1992 they refer continuously to or the Serbian
21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The first reference to Republika Srpska,
22 that is the Presidency of Republika Srpska, I found was in October, and I
23 think you'll agree it was in -- that the matter was first raised in the
24 Assembly, that is the change of the name of the state was first raised in
25 the Assembly in August, and the formal change took place at the session of
1 the Assembly on September 14th through 15th. So thereafter, the
2 appropriate title of the state would indeed be Republika Srpska; correct?
3 And the minutes would --
4 A. That was a problem when I was writing my book. I didn't know
5 exactly. I couldn't remember exactly when the name was changed. When I
6 talk about that, I'm not just talking only about the minutes. I also had
7 the opportunity to look at some orders from 1992. I received that.
8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... moment. So let me move to
9 the next issue, the next aspect of what you said regarding the minutes.
10 With regard to the usage of the term "President" versus "President of the
11 Presidency," again I look through those and they seem to consistently, at
12 least in the minutes, irrespective of what you might have seen in any
13 orders, reflect the term "President of the Presidency" throughout the
14 course of the minutes.
15 Now, I'd also like to mention to you at least a couple of examples
16 that indicate that those minutes were taken and existed contemporaneously,
17 and I have documents available for you to look at, if necessary. Please
18 tell me if you want to see those, but perhaps it would expedite matters if
19 I indicated to you what those documents contain, first, and then if that's
20 sufficient we can proceed.
21 So in the Presidency minutes of June 10th, they reflect that the
22 Presidency reached a number of conclusions and tasked the government to
23 prepare proposals concerning them, and then although -- I don't know if
24 you saw or looked at the minutes of the government sessions that took
25 place, but then in the government session that took place a few days later
1 on June 15th -- I'm sorry. I know Mrs. Plavsic said something. I didn't
2 hear a translation.
3 A. I did not have occasion to see minutes of cabinet sessions.
4 Q. Well, we have those in evidence, and the Court and the parties had
5 a chance to review them.
6 On June 15th, 1992, the government minutes note explicitly that it
7 had considered the minutes of the earlier Presidency meeting and then
8 directed the relevant ministers to prepare proposals accordingly.
9 Similarly, on 13 July, 1992, the Presidency concluded that it was
10 necessary to estimate and make a plan for manpower regarding required for
11 civilian functions. That was one conclusion. And another conclusion that
12 the reserve police should be placed under the central military command.
13 So July 13th, the Presidency reached certain conclusions as reflected in
14 the minutes.
15 And then we see in the minutes of July 22nd, 1992, a little over a
16 week later, of the government on the agenda, in this case in item 11, is
17 another explicit reference to the minutes of the Presidency. So agenda
18 item 11 of that government session held on July 22nd states that it will
19 address the obligations that result from the minutes of the Serb republic
20 of BH Presidency, and then if we -- if one turns to the actual agenda item
21 of that government session it can be seen that those particular -- that
22 particular item is directed to an estimate of manpower available for civil
23 needs and the issue of placing reserve police under central military
24 command, the exact conclusions reached by the Presidency session in the
25 minutes of July 13th.
1 So those are a couple of examples, Mrs. Plavsic, that would seem
2 to indicate that the minutes were taken contemporaneously, made available
3 to the government and the government acted on those. Would you agree?
4 A. You have in your possession minutes of the Presidency and minutes
5 from government sessions, while in fact before I came here I had not seen
6 a single minutes of a Presidency meeting. I have now in my possession, I
7 don't know how many exactly, maybe 20, maybe more, but certainly not less,
8 minutes of Presidency meetings that somebody from the Office of the
9 Prosecutor had sent to me, including some minutes of Assembly sessions.
10 That helped me a lot to reconstruct the dates, the time line for the
11 purposes of writing my book, and I was really studious in reviewing this.
12 Sometimes my memory fails me, of course, because these things happened 14
13 years ago and I am 76. But it was interesting to review all that, and I
14 know that I never received minutes.
15 I remember that I insisted, just as others did, but for instance
16 Mr. Krajisnik is the type of man who normally likes all the formal
17 requirements to be met, more so than Mr. Koljevic, but I remember
18 receiving that answer from Mr. Karadzic who said, "I dictate those minutes
19 after the session," and really from what I saw, from what I reviewed, I
20 see that it was dictated after the event. I'm not saying that it was
21 years later, but after the meeting is over he probably said to his
22 secretary, "Let me dictate to you the minutes."
23 You have those minutes, and you can see that a meeting that took
24 two or three hours was summarised on one page observing a certain form.
25 The meeting began at such-and-such an hour. It's usually early in the
1 morning in the minutes, which is ridiculous to anybody who knows
2 Mr. Karadzic. Then several items are listed, conclusions, and a signature
3 at the bottom.
4 Do you have such minutes? That's what I have. And I saw them for
5 the first time when I arrived here, just as many other documents. My
6 knowledge of all those things, if you compare what I knew before I came
7 here with what I learnt here, the ratio would be 80 to 20 per cent.
8 Q. And finally, just to note that you made an observation about
9 minutes that reflect the commencement of the Presidency session, and I
10 simply wanted to note that somewhat consistent with what you've said about
11 the increasingly late starting times, the minutes appear to reflect from
12 at least mid-June onwards commencement times that begin in late morning or
13 even early afternoon, which -- which would seem to be at least some
14 reflection in the minutes of what you've just said about the erratic or
15 later starting times. Do you recall that from your review of the minutes?
16 A. Of course, you could see here and there that some meetings started
17 even in the evening. There are things that I believe are not really
18 relevant to this Tribunal, but somehow your question brought this up, so
19 let me tell you.
20 At the time when the session should have long been under way, we
21 were still waiting and waiting, and I was the one who would make repeated
22 calls, and Mrs. Karadzic would answer, "Radovan is sleeping." I found
23 that point in the book of General Rose. So that's not something that is
24 only my impression. It is shared by the representatives of the
25 international community. Maybe that was due to his biological rhythm.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. So we often told him you decide when the meeting will begin, and
3 he'd say 11.00 or 12.00 and still be late. I don't think it's really very
4 important, but your question brought it up.
5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... pressing you for more details
6 on that point. Mrs. Plavsic, I assured you and the Court at the beginning
7 of this session that I would be brief, and I will comply with that.
8 MR. TIEGER: I've concluded these questions, Your Honour. Thank
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
11 MR. TIEGER: And thank you, Mrs. Plavsic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, Mr. Josse.
13 MR. STEWART: Well, that's certainly brief, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you want to start questioning Ms. Plavsic
15 or would there be anything else you --
16 MR. STEWART: Well, I do and very shortly, Your Honour, but I just
17 also wish to seek guidance yet again. Mr. Tieger has -- if we leave aside
18 the bit about the translation, which is probably fair to do, Mr. Tieger's
19 taken 28 minutes by our calculation as against his allowance of an hour
20 and 20 minutes. Is it now, and it's a reasonable question to ask,
21 Your Honour, is it now in mind the Prosecution that they have kept back 50
22 minutes for further cross-examination following the Defence's
24 MR. TIEGER: Well, the Court is looking at me so I presume they
25 want my response about that. And the answer would be: Yes, I think that
1 precisely is implied with --
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. I think I have intervene here.
3 Mr. Tieger, I said within certain limits. I mean, if you would have
4 questioned Mrs. Plavsic for ten minutes and then thought that the
5 remainder of one hour and ten minutes would be yours, then you would have
6 changed the order.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt.
8 I'm not trying to impose some schedule on the Court by any means with that
9 response. I'm simply -- whatever -- if questions arise later and the
10 Prosecution thinks it's proper to raise and useful to the Court to raise
11 additional questions, we'll make that known. Whatever those questions
12 might be, we understood they'd have to fit within the overall allotted
13 time whether or not there will be such questions or how long they might
14 take of course I leave to the Court, and --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That means, Mr. Stewart, of course, the Chamber
16 has considered the different scenarios, and therefore I gave the example
17 at the beginning that if you'd use one hour, 20 minutes would remain. Of
18 course the Chamber did not have in mind if you start with ten minutes then
19 one hour and ten minutes would remain because that would actually change
20 the order.
21 At the same time, it is not the usual examination-in-chief,
22 cross-examination situation was we often found -- find it. Let's see.
23 Let's see how it goes and whether it would be fair if Mr. Tieger -- let's
24 also listen to his questions and we might well say there's less time left,
25 because you have changed the basic idea underlying the procedure for
1 Chamber witnesses, that is, that Prosecution put questions to the witness
2 as the first party after the Bench and then the Defence.
3 I think it's clear. Mr. Tieger, this also means that if out of
4 technical reasons you thought it would be wise to keep most of the time
5 reserved for later -- yes.
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, actually, I raised this matter with
7 Mr. Stewart yesterday. It's not a tactical issue by any means. If the
8 Court -- and we fully endorse this approach. If the Court determines the
9 questions raised appear to be even inadvertently a circumvention of the
10 normal order rather than the -- the Court will act accordingly. So we
12 JUDGE ORIE: The basics are more or less clear.
13 MR. STEWART: I'm afraid they're not, Your Honour. It's true
14 Mr. Tieger raised now I can discuss it raised with me informally after
15 court this matter but in the sense that he assured me that his request
16 yesterday that there might be further examination by the Prosecution after
17 our cross-examination was not just a tactical or procedural manoeuvre but,
18 Your Honour, that's quite a different thing from that we have now in the
19 light of the timing laid down by the Court because essentially this is a
20 change of the order. And may I, Your Honour, indicate where this leaves
21 the Defence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We do not know that yet, Mr. Stewart, because it
23 might be there are no further questions [indiscernible] later stage.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say where this puts --
25 [overlapping speakers]
1 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour. I beg your pardon. Sorry.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, also keeping in the back of our mind the
4 Chamber would like to avoid that we -- that the time available for putting
5 questions to the witness would be consumed by the discussion on how we
6 would use that time and then have no time left for -- for putting
7 questions to the witness which is, of course, most important to do today,
8 you're invited to start your examination of Mrs. Plavsic.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm afraid I simply cannot with respect
10 be prevented from making submissions on this matter, and the importance of
11 asking questions of the witness doesn't seem to be very great bearing in
12 mind --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you've got two minutes to further --
14 make further submissions on the matter and then the Chamber will decide
15 whether we'll proceed according -- in accordance with what I just said or
16 whether there will be any change. Yes, please proceed.
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the Defence is in this position: We do
18 not know now whether we are to cross-examine and stop within our time and
19 then if we stop within our time we do not know whether the time that we
20 have reserved is only then to be used for questions which in some way
21 arise out of the Prosecution's further questions or whether we are then
22 able to complete our cross-examination. Your Honour -- Your Honour has
23 given me two minutes. What the Prosecution have done is so near to the
24 situation that Your Honour hypothesised of stopping after ten minutes as
25 to make no practical difference. When we look at the very, very thin
1 ground that's actually been covered in about 20 minutes, that is in effect
2 what has happened. They have given up over about an hour of their time.
3 This is in our submission, Your Honour, a real, substantial reversal and
4 interference with not just the normal order but what Your Honours had in
5 mind as the order. This really is not acceptable, in our submission.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will determine on the basis of what
8 happens who has still time for what. It's not fair to assume, and it's
9 clearly contradicted by Mr. Tieger that this was a tactical approach.
10 Neither could one exclude that the results would be more or less what it
11 would have been if it would have been a tactical approach. Rather than
12 discussing this for another time, Mr. Stewart, the Chamber would like to
13 proceed, as I said before. So you're invited to put questions to
14 Mrs. Plavsic. And if time would be left at the very end, and if the
15 parties would then ask to use that time by putting additional questions to
16 the witness, the Chamber will consider that, and then irrespective or
17 whether -- and we would see then in what situation we are whether that
18 would be a clear cross-examination or examination situation where you
19 would be allowed to address additional matters, we'll determine that at
20 the point in time where the matter becomes actual.
21 MR. STEWART: May I ask for guidance, please, Your Honour. If
22 I -- if I were to use my entire allocation, I'm then in the Court's hands
23 as to discretion as to whether I get further time. And if I don't use the
24 whole of my allocation, am I in the same position, that I'm not guaranteed
25 getting the balance ultimately?
1 JUDGE ORIE: We're trying to get the best out of the presence of
2 Mrs. Plavsic who was called on behalf of the Chamber. If you would not
3 have used the whole of the time allocated to you and if further time would
4 remain, then we would certainly consider how to use that time, and I
5 certainly do not exclude that additional time might be given for new
6 matters to be addressed in the questions.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I will -- I will proceed, Your Honour,
8 but I will also, please, Your Honour has invited me not to take more time
9 on this, but I would reserve the Defence's position entirely in relation
10 to all these matters that have come up, and they are also the matter that
11 we would also want to take with discussing at Mr. Krajisnik at some point,
12 but, Your Honour, with that express reservation yes indeed then I will as
13 Your Honour asks me to do, proceed with examination.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Plavsic, questions will now be put to you by
15 Mr. Stewart who is the Defence counsel for Mr. Krajisnik.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
17 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I don't know
18 if there are a lot of microphones on. I'm getting a great -- maybe it's
19 something this morning. I'm getting a great deal of interference from --
20 JUDGE ORIE: There is some. I do agree. The attention of the
21 technicians is asked for the problem. There is some interference. It's
22 for me not at such a level, but.
23 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It may also be a computer that makes a bit of noise.
25 If we find the source, please remove the source; if not, the level is such
1 that we can continue at this moment.
2 MR. STEWART: It's like that but we'll crack on.
3 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:
4 Q. The -- Mrs. Plavsic, good morning?
5 A. [No interpretation]
6 Q. You say in your statement and you describe in your evidence people
7 coming to visit Mr. Krajisnik in Pale, and you said that his office was
8 always full of people because deputies and municipal authorities from
9 different regions would report to him about various regional problems.
10 How often from the point when you arrived in Pale in late May, 1992, how
11 often did you see this?
12 A. I did not deal with that. I didn't follow it. I had no such
13 intent. It's just the impression that I gained, and when one gains an
14 impression it implies that it's something that recurred over those months
15 many times. It was a usual thing to meet somebody, to run into somebody
16 who would tell you, "I'm going up there to see Krajisnik. I'm going up
17 there to -- because I need Krajisnik." And in the anteroom where his
18 secretary sat, there were always many people who would be waiting to go
19 in. That's something that I observed. And generally speaking,
20 Mr. Krajisnik, as president of the Assembly, certainly had to have
21 contacts with Assembly men as part of his work.
22 As for municipal authorities, I don't know whether his contacts
23 with them followed from some tasks he got from the party. I don't know
24 what his tasks within the party were. I know that he was a well-respected
25 man within the party. And as for the economy, I know he was considered as
1 very competent, very expert. He was a member of I don't know how many
2 professional boards or technical boards. And when I said he was a
3 powerful man, I did not mean anything negative. I just noted a fact, that
4 power, and I believe I spoke about that yesterday, transpired from
5 various ...
6 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, whatever criticisms you might make and we know do
7 make of Mr. Krajisnik, you would agree, wouldn't you, that he is -- he is
8 a man who was always receptive to listening to the problems of others and
9 doing what he could to help?
10 A. I did not attend those meetings. I wasn't there. But if some
11 people constantly go to see a man, well, they wouldn't be going to see
12 somebody who is totally unable to, let me not say fulfil their wishes, but
13 provide whatever they needed. Sometimes it was the very basic necessities
14 that these people were lacking, something indispensable.
15 Q. But my question was a little bit -- a little bit general,
16 Mrs. Plavsic. Leaving aside these particular meetings, as your general
17 experience of Mr. Krajisnik, would you agree that he was somebody who was
18 always receptive to listening to the problems of others and anxious to do
19 what he could to help?
20 A. Right. People would probably not have gone to him if he had been
21 a different man. Our people would say that he is the sort of man who
22 knows how to ask, "How are you? How's your family do?" Unlike some other
23 people who did not have that habit because they were different by nature.
24 Let me give you an example. In Sarajevo, I was unable for a while
25 to run away. I was with my mother, who was 85 at the time and totally
1 immobile. Mr. Karadzic never called to say, "How are you managing in this
2 situation?" Whereas Mr. Krajisnik did. He would just ask people how they
3 were doing, if they needed anything, and that's probably why people went
4 to see him. And they were thinking something like, I'm going to see
5 Krajisnik. I'll probably find some support and assistance there. But I
6 don't know. I didn't see with my own eyes either what they asked for or
7 what they got, but good communication from the local people on his part,
8 because communication lines with the local level were very poor. The
9 corridor from the eastern part to the western part was blocked for a
10 while, and you had to take a roundabout macadam road, travel under very
11 difficult conditions, sometimes under gunfire. The line was a thousand
12 and 700 kilometres long. People would sometimes come to see him because
13 they needed something undergoing many difficulties on the way.
14 Q. Well, Mrs. Plavsic your answer in fact contains the answer to my
15 next three questions so if we continue in this telepathic way we will use
16 the time very well indeed.
17 Mrs. Plavsic, did you have any knowledge in May, June, July, 1992,
18 of any visits by Mr. Krajisnik to other municipalities?
19 A. No. I didn't have any particular information. Maybe it was like
20 that. I don't know. I mean, I wasn't really following what Mr. Krajisnik
21 was doing. I didn't always know when he was in his office all the time.
22 I just didn't follow that. But there were times when I looked for him and
23 he wasn't there, and then his secretary would say, "The president has gone
24 to such-and-such a place." That's how I knew.
25 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, let me make it clear. Nobody I think, but certainly
1 not I am urging you to speculate.
2 Just to be clear, then, did Mr. Krajisnik, in 1992, let's stay
3 with that year, did he ever accompany you, with or without any other
4 people, on any visit to any other municipality?
5 A. I don't remember. It seems to me that we did go to a meeting
6 together that had to do with the airport, but it's possible that that
7 wasn't. So either someone was with me, however, they didn't travel with
8 me. When I say "travel" it might sound silly when applied to an hour-long
9 trip by car, but when the topic of surrendering the airport to the
10 UNPROFOR was being dealt with, I think that I did describe that event in
11 my book by saying that I thought that -- that Mr. Krajisnik also attended
12 that meeting, but I wasn't definite about that.
13 Q. Did you -- do you have any recollection at all that you might, in
14 1992, have gone with Mr. Krajisnik, with or without anybody else, to any
15 municipality outside the Sarajevo area?
16 A. No, I cannot remember. When I came to Pale, I was in Pale the
17 entire time. There was just one invitation from November sad to appear on
18 their television and I went. Otherwise, I was thought of as somebody who
19 sat house, quote unquote, who was there looking after the house where we
20 were staying.
21 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, during 1992 did you report directly to Mr. Krajisnik
22 following any visit or contact by you with any municipality outside the
23 Sarajevo area?
24 A. I cannot recall going outside of the Sarajevo municipality. You
25 are taking into account the period from late May until the end of 1992.
1 Is that the period that we're talking about?
2 Q. We probably ought to just make that clearer. It's my fault,
3 Mrs. Plavsic, for not being sufficiently specific. I am talking about
4 whole of 1992, not just from May. So I am included the period when you
5 were still in Sarajevo and you were still for the early part of that year
6 a member of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency. So with that
7 clarification, could you deal with the broader question then for 1992?
8 Just to remind you, did you ever report directly to Mr. Krajisnik
9 following a visit by you in 1992 to any municipality outside the Sarajevo
11 A. First let me say I don't know how you imagine this report to be.
12 At the time, I was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
13 and I was elected at the first multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina
14 together with Mr. Koljevic to represent the Serbian people. I was not
15 obliged to report to or to inform Mr. Krajisnik of any matters by nature
16 of my post. I informed the Presidency whose member I was.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About my activities. This has to do
19 with your term reporting. I think that has a sort of official tone. But
20 as to whether I met Mr. Krajisnik, I don't mean on the street but sort of
21 encountered him in a conversation, perhaps, "Biljana, I haven't seen you.
22 Did you go anywhere?" And then I would answer "yes, to such-and-such a
23 place," and it would be a conversation. But you have to remind you of
25 As to reporting, I was only obliged to report to the Presidency,
1 and I did report to them. So you have to be specific and tell me what
2 this exactly this is about and which period it covers.
3 The 8th of April was the last day of my Presidency membership.
4 This was 1992.
5 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's being taken care of. Sorry,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Plavsic, you're addressing Mr. Stewart, which is
8 fine, but the interpreters have some difficulty in catching your voice
9 from the microphone. So the one microphone to be turned a bit. So if you
10 please keep in mind that they should be able to hear you. Yes.
11 MR. STEWART:
12 Q. Yes. Mrs. Plavsic, I'll try to -- to it clarify then. It's
13 possible that the word I'm using in English, of report, is having some
14 stronger, official meaning. When I'm talking and asking whether you
15 reported to Mr. Krajisnik or anybody else, we can take it for the rest of
16 the morning or however long I have of the morning that I'm not confining
17 it to that sort of official report. I'm talking about simply telling him
18 or telling somebody what happened, that sort of reporting. Does that --
19 does that help if I add that clarification?
20 A. No, it doesn't help me. Please tell me specifically and I will
21 tell you yes or no directly. I mean, you need to be more specific,
22 otherwise I cannot remember.
23 Q. I'll build it into the specific questions, then, Mrs. Plavsic.
24 We'll do it that way.
25 Did you -- whether or not you had any sort of official obligation
1 to do it and in whatever formal or informal manner it was done, did you at
2 any time in 1992 report to Mr. Krajisnik following any visit or contact by
3 you to or with a municipality outside the Sarajevo area?
4 A. I was not obliged to report or inform Mr. Krajisnik. If I had
5 been a member of any body within the SDS, and Mr. Krajisnik did have a
6 post in the SDS and if you were to ask me which ones, I know that he was
7 just not a regular member of the SDS like I was. So had I had some post
8 there, maybe in accordance with that hierarchy I would have been
9 duty-bound to report to him.
10 In this way, I wasn't. If you're talking about the period when I
11 was a member of the Presidency, the Presidency sent me to several places.
12 I often thought I was the only woman there and they were sending me
13 somewhere where a stronger man would need to be sent, but it wasn't my
14 habit to refuse work, and it wasn't my habit to protect myself. If we're
15 talking about that period, I only reported to the Presidency. Wherever I
16 would go, the media would go with me. What would happen could be seen on
17 the news the next day, where the member of the Presidency of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina was. She was sent there because of such-and-such a thing, and
19 her report says such-and-such.
20 It was all public. TV cameras would follow the events. I would
21 be visiting these areas as a member of the Presidency. I would never go
22 alone. Either somebody else from the Presidency would go with me or from
23 the government.
24 As far as I can recall, there was never anyone from the Assembly
25 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and discussions were held at that level. The
1 Presidency did not see it, and I don't recall that anything that was
2 discussed there would be confidential or secret. All was discussed
3 usually in the presence of journalists, and I saw no reason for the
5 So if you are interested in something specific, I would like you
6 to be specific then, which date, what was my post at the time, and I will
7 tell you right away.
8 At the time when I was a member of the Presidency, the Presidency
9 was the -- actually, the Assembly was the highest legislative body, but
10 according to a kind of hierarchy the Presidency was above the Assembly.
11 Well, I really cannot present to you what the relations were. I'm not
12 even thinking about that any more.
13 Q. I'll try as best I can to follow your request to make my questions
15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the -- in our submission, the -- that
16 answer clearly, implicitly contains a straight no to my question. If the
17 Trial Chamber or the Prosecutor suggests anything different, then I would
18 perhaps have to pursue it different, but in my submission it does contain
19 a clear no.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could clarify then one detail. Let me try
21 to do it.
22 Mrs. Plavsic, you said whenever you were sent somewhere cameras
23 would follow you, everything was in the open, you had no duty to report to
24 Mr. Krajisnik or the Assembly. At the same time, in one of your earlier
25 answers you said something that, "I would see him. I would say to him,
1 well, I went there and then, and had a brief conversation on it."
2 Does your last extensive answer on reporting change what you said
3 earlier, or would you say, "Well, all the reporting, cameras, et cetera,
4 that was there at such level I did not speak about the matters with
5 Mr. Krajisnik, but we might have had just an informal conversation when we
6 met. Not a scheduled meeting but just when I would see him, I would say,
7 Yesterday I went there."
8 Would apart from where your answer seems to clearly say no formal
9 report, and you set out what the situation was, would that -- would you
10 say, "I nevertheless might have had this type of informal conversation
11 with him," as I described before? I mean, did the two be next to each
12 other or did one exclude the other?
13 A. I would like to know again if this refers to the period when I was
14 a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That was clearly understood, and I understand your
16 answer to be that it was mainly at that period in time when you were sent
17 somewhere. So it certainly would be included.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Who sent me? I would go wherever
19 the Presidency would send me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear, Mrs. Plavsic, but I just wanted to hear
21 from you where you said, no formal reporting, these were official visits,
22 et cetera. So at that level I never reported to Mr. Krajisnik. But would
23 that -- would it still have been possible that when seeing him in passing
24 that you had a brief conversation? "Yesterday, I went there and there,"
25 and so just informal chat?
1 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. Excuse me. Excuse me,
2 Mrs. Plavsic. The exchange at page 30, line 11, where Mrs. Plavsic quite
3 fairly asked for clarification again, I would like to know again if this
4 refers to the period when I was a member in BiH, Your Honour said that was
5 clearly understood.
6 Your Honour, I had tried to make it clear to Mrs. Plavsic that in
7 fact it was the precise opposite and that my questions did relate to the
8 whole of 1992 and that is going to confuse the issue enormously in my
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact that I said then -- let
11 me just find it again. I later said it would certainly be included, and
12 that would mean that includes the time --
13 MR. STEWART: That doesn't resolve the ambiguity and confusion,
14 Your Honour, one bit. Well, Your Honour -- it's Your Honour's questions
15 at the moment, but I'm just saying if Your Honour's -- if Your Honour's
16 questions then proceed on a different basis from my questions then the
17 witness will get terribly confused.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart. I then leave it in your hands. I just
19 wanted to find out -- I take it that that was clear to you. I just wanted
20 to find out whether the answer clearly indicated that there was in no way
21 any formal reporting on any of those visits whether still occasional
22 conversations of a total informal character would take place and if
23 there's any ambiguity in time you're invited to -- to clarify that with
24 the witness.
25 MR. STEWART:
1 Q. Well, Mrs. Plavsic, I tried to make it clear that my question was
2 not confined to formal reporting.
3 MR. STEWART: So forgive me one moment, Your Honour. I'm having to
4 disentangle some questions and points here.
5 Q. Can you recall in the whole of 1992 any informal reporting by you
6 in whatever way, however casual, to Mr. Krajisnik following any visit or
7 contact with you -- by you with a municipality outside the Sarajevo area?
8 A. It seems to me that in this way you would not be able to
9 disentangle anything. If I may be allowed to say something that you have
10 tangled up.
11 The only way to say it is to say it in that and that period you
12 were in such-and-such a place. Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about that or
14 The year of 1992 was completely different. Early 1992 until,
15 let's say April 8th, and then there April 8th onwards. These were two
16 completely different environments. There was peace such as it was. It
17 was a little tense. It was bringing in some ugly signals, but then after
18 that the war came. And I can reply to a well-formulated question, but
19 believe me, I agree that it is all tangled up.
20 Q. Mrs. Plavsic --
21 A. And when something is tangled, I would not be able to. I don't
22 know how to come out of it.
23 Q. I'm going to get my disentangling tools ready again, Mrs. Plavsic.
24 And have another go. Let's do it this way, I hope this will help you: Up
25 to the time when you resigned from the Presidency of Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina on the 8th, I think it was, of April, 1992, we know that a few
2 days previously to that you had visited Bijeljina. That's correct, isn't
4 A. Everyone knows that. Even people abroad know that.
5 Q. Had you, in 1992, up to the 8th of April, had you visited any
6 other municipality in Bosnia and Herzegovina outside the Sarajevo area?
7 A. Of course. Of course. I think that the day before or yesterday I
8 said, and I saw here that there are subtitles here, not just numbers --
9 subheadings here, not just numbers, and I think -- and I'm talking about
10 the summary, and it's from April. And I think that I said why from April,
11 when there was a visit three or four days -- actually, there was a visit
12 in late March which was very important but it's not here.
13 Q. Yes. Well, in that case tell us, Mrs. Plavsic, please, to where
14 was that very important visit in late March?
15 A. That visit was on the 28th of March. It was a visit to Bosanski
16 Brod. Is that what you wanted it hear?
17 Q. It's going in the right direction, absolutely, Mrs. Plavsic.
18 A. Excellent.
19 Q. I'm going to now --
20 A. Then you should have asked me right away, because I'm afraid to
21 say something because His Honour might then say that it's not relevant.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... as I was, Mrs. Plavsic, but I
23 do my best to try to be on the ball.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Plavsic, let me say the following: If
25 Mr. Stewart is putting the questions in the way he does, he gives you an
1 opportunity to come up with your own knowledge without Mr. Stewart already
2 suggesting something. If you ask someone, "How did you come to this
3 Tribunal," then it's up for you to say, "I came by bicycle, by car, by
4 plane." If you say, "Did you come by car to this Tribunal," then there is
5 already some suggestion in it that it may well have been by car. And I
6 think Mr. Stewart by putting his questions in this way leaves -- gives you
7 the opportunity to come up as best as possible with your own answers and
8 not suggesting too much. I think that might be in the back of his mind,
9 and therefore that's fully accepted and would -- is even, I would say,
10 quite fair to you, not to push you in a certain direction.
11 Apart from that, Ms. Plavsic, we usually have a break at this
12 point in time. May I ask you, did you have a chance to review the
13 corrected version of your statement yesterday or --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Are you satisfied with the way it has been changed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to look at it again. I
17 think, as far as the terminology's concerned, the latest version still has
18 some of the official names -- sorry, unofficial names in it. But as for
19 substantial errors that change the meaning, they have all been corrected.
20 I just want to tell that you without disentangling things further,
21 it has been my problem forever, I can only answer directly if asked a
22 direct question. I am not the kind of person who will take offence at
23 direct questions. It is my nature but also the nature of the job that I
24 had. I think that would facilitate things.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Stewart takes your last remark on
2 I suggest to the parties the following as far as the official
3 terminology is concerned. It seems not to be a core issue. I would like
4 to invite Mrs. Plavsic to just make circles around any terminology
5 where -- just for the terminology she makes a reservation as to what in
6 that respect her statement is fully correct and then ask her to sign the
8 Mrs. Plavsic, would you be so kind to read, perhaps during the
9 next break, the statement again and just make a circle around any name of
10 a body, et cetera, where you say, "I do not fully accept that this is the
11 correct name," so that we know what reservation you made. We then -- this
12 is then on the record. This is on the official record of the Tribunal
13 that you made that reservation. It's visible in your statement, and we
14 then ask you to initial every page of the statement and sign it.
15 Perhaps I have one further remark to make for the parties rather
16 in the absence of the witness. Could I invite the security to escort the
17 witness out of the courtroom.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll -- yes. Rather than having a very abstract
20 discussion on how much time would be left, et cetera, et cetera,
21 Mr. Tieger, could you inform us on the basis of the questions that were
22 put to Mrs. Plavsic until now, what amount of time would that trigger for
23 you -- so we can make an assessment. We're monitoring what happened.
24 MR. TIEGER: None.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
1 MR. STEWART: So far so helpful, Your Honour. That's a most
2 helpful answer. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I might ask a similar question during the course of
4 the further examination this witness, and of course the first issue is
5 whether you have any questions, and then the second matter would be how
6 much time you would need to deal with the issue you'd like to raise.
7 And, Mr. Tieger, I think it goes without saying that if you would
8 have one question where for many witnesses you would make that two
9 minutes, you'll have the experience, as we have it now, it's your
10 assessment on how much time it would take to deal with the matter you have
11 on your mind, and don't tell me later on that you're surprised that it
12 took more than you thought.
13 MR. TIEGER: Understood, Your Honour thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn and resume at 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, in the hope to be helpful, I'm going to narrow down
20 the time frame just a bit and invite you, please, to disregard January and
21 February, 1992, so that when I'm asking from now on we can start at the
22 beginning of March, 1992.
23 You've told the Trial Chamber -- we know that you went to
24 Bijeljina. That's in your statement. You've told the Trial Chamber that
25 you went to Bosanski Brod. Did you -- from the beginning of March up to
1 the 8th of April, did you go to any other municipality in Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina outside the Sarajevo area?
3 A. I went on instructions from the Presidency to Novi Travnik, to
4 Capljina, Kupres, Bosanski Brod.
5 Q. Yes, you said Bosanski Brod before. Is that -- that completes the
6 list. And those five municipalities, Bosanski Brod, Novi Travnik,
7 Capljina and Kupres that was best in that period from the beginning of
8 March to 8th of April, in that five-week period, was it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were there -- I'll leave Bijeljina on the one side for the moment.
11 Was your visit to Bosanski Brod in any way connected with any outbreak or
12 reports of outbreak of violence?
13 A. Well, the violence in Bosnia and Herzegovina started precisely in
14 that territory, in that area, in Bosanski Brod, just after the beginning
15 of March. The 108th Brigade crossed over from Croatia to the territory of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, to our territory, and we received that report in
17 the Presidency.
18 The president of the Presidency did not attach particular
19 importance to certain reports. He was somehow selective about that. But
20 I know that on this occasion he said that we should check whether the
21 report was correct, and how could it be checked. Somebody from the
22 Presidency should go there. And I was chosen to go there with Mr. Abdic
23 and Mr. Boras.
24 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, forgive me if I may seem to be cutting you off. I
25 just at the moment rather than going into the details in these particular
1 municipalities, I'm just trying to check through them.
2 Again, a brief answer, please. Was your visit to Novi Travnik
3 linked to any outbreak of violence there or reports of outbreak of
4 violence there? And I'm seeking a pretty near to a yes or no answer,
5 Mrs. Plavsic, with respect.
6 A. I cannot answer, because what I consider violence, and there was
7 violence, is when barracks containing conscripts are cut off from their
8 supply of electricity, water, and food, and all that is decided not by the
9 Presidency but by the local community.
10 I went there with Mr. Doko, the minister of defence, who is a
11 Croat. Capljina is a Croat area, meaning that it is populated mostly by
12 Croats. And there was somebody from the police, I believe Mr. -- somebody
13 from the police. Somebody that Mr. Alija Izetbegovic insisted should go.
14 And I, the member of Presidency, was asking and begging and reminding
15 people from the local community that those people should have water to
16 drink and food to eat, nothing more than that, and they did not allow it.
17 In the same way, other barracks were surrounded and cut off, and that was
18 an assault on the army of Yugoslavia that was still a regular army.
19 In order to achieve something in that type of situation, I had to
20 beg people, to remind them that they had children, too, that those
21 children are also serving in the army or may be serving in the army, and
22 could they imagine what it would be like if their children had no
23 electricity and no food and no water. And I didn't meet with much
24 support, although I had some support from Mr. Doko.
25 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, can I just try to tie together straight away
1 Capljina and Kupres just in this way: Is it also correct, just keeping
2 your answer to this point, please, that your visits to both Capljina and
3 Kupres were connected with violence or hostilities or reports of violence
4 or hostilities?
5 A. My visits were attempts to defuse that situation; unfortunately, I
6 failed. Not only I, because I was not alone from the Presidency who went
7 there, and we did not manage, unfortunately, to lift the blockade of the
8 barracks in Capljina. We did not manage to save the Serbs from the
9 massacre they experienced in Kupres just after we left. Mr. Boras has the
10 best intentions, and although he had separate talks with the Croats, I do
11 not doubt that he advised them not to do such things, but the troops were
12 coming from Tomislavgrad, formerly called Duvno, and he had to go there
13 and I returned.
14 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Plavsic. I'd like to look specifically at your
15 visit to Bijeljina on the 4th of April, 1992. Do you have a copy of
16 your -- your statement as it now stands in your own language there with
17 you? If not, then -- you do. You have it in front of you. Excellent.
18 Could you look, please, then to paragraph 13 which is under the
19 heading "Visit to Bijeljina on 4th of April, 1992." Do you find that
20 point? If -- I'm sure Their Honours would agree, Mrs. Plavsic, that if at
21 any point you need time to refresh yourself as to what you said or to be
22 clear, I believe you only have to ask.
23 The -- you -- paragraph 14, you say -- well, you say around the
24 7th it of April you were contacted and so on, and then paragraph 14 you
25 were instructed by the president to go to Bijeljina, and Mr. Izetbegovic
1 stated that the minority Muslim population in the municipality were in a
2 dangerous situation and that there had been massacres of Muslims there.
3 You describe, and I'm not dwelling on this in detail then, but nor
4 do I wish to rush you through it, you describe what you saw, broken
5 windows. You understood there had been fighting, young men in blue
6 uniform. You refer to Arkan, visits to Muslim families.
7 Paragraph 19, you didn't see any dead bodies, but you say you did
8 talk to some people whose family members had been killed during the
10 And then going to -- you talk about the Serb flag being hoisted on
11 the mosque and then paragraph 22 which is the conclusion of this passage,
12 your statement, you say, "When we returned, Mr. Abdic and I gave a very
13 short oral report to the Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency. My report was
14 that nothing out of the ordinary had happened in Bijeljina."
15 Mrs. Plavsic, I want to clarify with you. First of all, compared
16 with ordinary life in Bijeljina in peacetime, it was absolutely obvious
17 that what had happened there was out of the ordinary, wasn't it?
18 A. Well, that was the reason why I went there. If the situation had
19 been normal, there would have been no reason to go there. Mr. Izetbegovic
20 had read a report that a massacre of Muslims in Bijeljina had already been
21 committed or was in preparation. I remember that very well. And at that
22 Presidency session, I said it's impossible. Bijeljina is not some
23 backwater village so that we could not know about it. It's not so far
24 from Sarajevo that we wouldn't hear news from there. But that was my
25 spontaneous reaction, especially in view of the fact that two hours prior
1 to that I talked to Mr. Abdic.
2 Q. I hope you won't consider it rude. Such interruptions normally
3 are rather rude, but I only have very limited time, and I really am going
4 to quite formally invite you to stick to the questions I'm asking and
5 concentrate on answering them.
6 The -- the point is this: That -- do you agree, just to get some
7 clear guidelines, to say that nothing out of the ordinary had happened in
8 Bijeljina as a general, simple proposition literally stated like that is
9 obviously absurd, isn't it?
10 A. Who said that nothing happened in Bijeljina? It happened.
11 Q. Mrs. Plavsic -- Mrs. Plavsic --
12 A. The massacre didn't happen.
13 Q. Bear with me, Mrs. Plavsic. Your statement to this Court is
14 saying that your report in 1992 back to the Presidency was that nothing
15 out of ordinary had happened in Bijeljina, and I'm just putting to you
16 that stated in that simple way that's obviously absurd, isn't it?
17 A. Why are you taking that sentence out of context? Of course it
18 looks that way if you do that. When somebody takes a sentence out of
19 context, we call it manipulation, although I'm not saying that you are
20 manipulating. Of course --
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. -- this happened.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... to you then is to put it in
24 context. You're the witness. This is your statement. This is what
25 you're saying about your report. I'm only asking the question. So please
1 put it in context as much as you wish to do to make the point clear. It's
2 an open invitation for you to put it in context.
3 A. Mr. Izetbegovic said that a massacre had happened in Bijeljina.
4 That's what he said at a Presidency session. At that Presidency session,
5 that morning, early that morning, Mr. Abdic came and he was sitting there,
6 and at that moment he said, "That's not true, Alija. It's true I was
7 captured there, but there was no massacre." And I only expressed doubt to
8 that one claim.
9 And Mr. Izetbegovic responded by saying, "Mrs. Plavsic, if you
10 have any doubts, why don't you go and see for yourself?" I replied that I
11 won't go unless the Presidency ordered me to do so and I'm not going
12 alone. So some other people were appointed including General Prascevic
13 who was travelling in other car and Mr. Abdic.
14 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, let's look at your --
15 A. From the 2nd military districts General Prascevic.
16 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, let's look at your statement. Paragraph 15 when you
17 arrived in Bijeljina no people on the streets you got the impression that
18 the town was empty. Was that an ordinary situation for Bijeljina? Yes or
20 A. Well, I told you that something happened. You are constantly
21 trying to put it to me that I had said that nothing had happened in
22 Bijeljina. It did. The observation that I made that streets were empty
23 in itself is something out of the ordinary from a normally busy town.
24 Q. Mrs. Plavsic --
25 A. The shop windows about shattered. That's also not normal. It was
1 obvious that something had happened there.
2 Q. We can -- we can -- Mrs. --
3 A. Even here and there you could hear shooting.
4 Q. We can shorten this, I feel confident.
5 A. Well, shorten it then.
6 Q. Did you in fact report with no significant qualification to the
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency that nothing out of the ordinary had
8 happened in Bijeljina?
9 A. I did not. It was a verbal report just after I came back, but not
10 only to the Presidency. We travelled actually via Tuzla, and in Tuzla
11 there was a press conference where I shared my impressions as to what had
12 happened, and Mr. Abdic did the same. It seemed very odd to me, though,
13 that he was giving his briefing in one room and I was giving my briefing
14 in another room, and both of us protested against that because we were
15 both members of the same body, and we could sit together and brief the
17 However, when I saw that, I realised what was going on. That
18 morning, in the mass media, only my statements were related, not those of
19 Mr. Abdic. Maybe -- Mr. Abdic is a very vain man. He burst into my
20 office and said, "This is pure impudence that my voice is not heard at
21 all, and nothing of what I said to the media is reported." I told
22 him, "Abdic, go and ask Izetbegovic. Don't you see what kind of game this
24 Q. Yes. Mrs. Plavsic, the question is this: With the context that
25 we see in your statement, your statement nevertheless in the second
1 sentence of paragraph 22 does say that your report was that nothing out of
2 the ordinary had happened in Bijeljina, and it seems to be, Mrs. Plavsic,
3 that for whatever reason, pressures or whatever, that sentence is not
4 accurate and does require significant qualification. Do you agree?
5 A. Excuse me, what you just said is not in paragraph 22. I'll read
6 it. It's a very brief paragraph.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mrs. Plavsic.
8 A. Do you allow me?
9 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, of course.
10 A. "When we returned, Mr. Abdic and I gave just a very brief verbal
11 report to the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In that report, I did not
12 mention the Serb flag hoisted on the mosque in Bijeljina. A few days
13 later, we were supposed -- I was supposed to submit a written report.
14 However, on the 8th of April, I resigned from my position in the
15 Presidency. I believe that Mr. Krajisnik was not informed about my visit
16 to Bijeljina."
17 All this stands. If I did not mention the flag on the mosque, how
18 can you conclude that I said that nothing happened in Bijeljina? I
19 believe that the flag on top of the mosque, from a moral point of view, if
20 I can call it that, it was out of place. And I discussed it with Abdic.
21 And I told others, why did they put up that flag on the mosque?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note this sentence is missing in
23 the Serbian translation.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Either let me finish.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mrs. Plavsic, please. We
1 have to sort something out. The interpreters have raised something which
2 has already become, I think, very clear, certainly to His Honours -- I
3 think I -- to Their Honours, I can see, and to me, which is that a
4 sentence which I have in front of me absolutely clearly in black and white
5 in the English version appears to have gone missing in some way from the
6 Serb version.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Mrs. Plavsic reading out that
8 paragraph, there was no equivalent of the second sentence that we're
9 seeing in the English version, unless I am completely mishearing or
11 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a -- there seems to be a problem as
12 far as translation is concerned.
13 When you were invited to read, Mrs. Plavsic, you read from the --
14 what we call B/C/S, that's Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian version, and it seems
15 that one line from the English has not been translated, I tell you, and
16 that caused all of the problem. There is one line in English.
17 THE WITNESS: [In English] I can see because now I'm comparing
18 that. It's awful.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, how awful it is, of course --
20 THE WITNESS: It's awful.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we could look back both in the audio, but
22 let's just clarify then that you say, "This is not what I told the
23 Presidency, that nothing out of the ordinary had happened in Bijeljina."
24 I suggest to the parties, given the -- given the clarifications
25 given by Mrs. Plavsic about the report that we strike this from the
1 statement as -- of course, the parties will have an opportunity to -- to
2 look in the transcript and the audio of the original so that we know, but
3 for the time being the type of reporting seems to be better understood
4 without this sentence than with this sentence.
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, that's absolutely right
6 with respect as far as it goes, but it leaves some matters. Your Honour,
7 I have a couple of submissions which really would be better made in the
8 absence of Mrs. Plavsic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mrs. Plavsic, since you, from what we now know
10 you understand English quite well, Mr. Stewart wanted to raise a
11 procedural issue which he'd rather do in your absence, that is not to
12 influence you in any way and you not -- so you could please for a second
13 leave the courtroom.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, first of all there's if you like the
17 practical technical aspect and then there's what flows from it. Our
18 understanding had been that, and we think this is right, that Mrs.
19 Plavsic's interview in Sweden, being entirely conducted in English, the
20 statement prepared by the Trial Chamber was, of course, prepared in
21 English, and then at the final stages, before it was sent to Mrs. Plavsic
22 in Sweden it was translated from English into her language so that the --
23 that sentence in the English statement which was, if you like, the
24 statement, disappeared in some way from the Serbian. There was then --
25 and these things happen, but it was not picked up when Mrs. Plavsic
1 checked her statement, made amendments. It was subsequently never picked
2 up that that sentence hadn't appeared in her version, so we continued with
3 the version in English.
4 But, Your Honour, the problem is not merely a technical one
5 because this is most unfortunate, because I have conducted the last 15 or
6 20 minutes of cross-examination entirely reasonably, I don't believe
7 anybody could suggest anything different, entirely reasonably on the
8 footing that that was a sentence in Mrs. Plavsic's statement and that's
9 what she was saying. And it's worse, Your Honours, because Your Honours
10 will have seen that over the last 15 or 20 minutes, I have, as counsel
11 often do, I have changed my tone of cross-examination. We do. That's
12 what we do. That's part of our job. And my tone of cross-examination in
13 relation to Mrs. Plavsic has changed to a considerable result as a
14 consequence of her answers which are not surprisingly slightly -- getting
15 slightly heated and frustrated on her part for reasons which I could not
16 understand because I now see why that was so. So this has significantly
17 altered the thrust and the dynamics, if you like, and the tone of my
18 cross-examination of Mrs. Plavsic as a result of a completely false basis.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What do you suggest to -- we have -- Mr. Stewart, we
20 have all experienced over the last years in this trial that sometimes
21 human failure in translating and in many other respects negatively
22 impacted on what we are doing. We have lost time. We have done things we
23 would not have done if such human failure would not have been there. It
24 cannot be otherwise for such a long period of time, but of course we
25 should try to keep it to the bear minimum which could be achieved at
1 normal human standards.
2 This Chamber, whether it was about translation or any other
3 matter, always has tried to repair as good as it could such human failure.
4 What your suggestion at this moment for repair of -- I do agree with you,
5 a very unfortunate situation.
6 MR. STEWART: Two things, Your Honour. First of all, of course
7 human -- we're all human. I don't quarrel with that at all, Your Honour.
8 Of course we have to accept that, naturally. The possibility of human
9 error is always slightly aggravated by what we have submitted already,
10 Your Honour, is the accelerated pace of some of these matters. But we are
11 where we are now, Your Honour. First of all this is sufficiently
12 disconcerting that we really do wish, however quickly it can be done, we
13 do wish an immediate checking to make sure that there is no other such
14 error or deficiency. It shouldn't take very long, Your Honour, but that
15 really needs to be done, because, with respect, I do not wish to have a
16 repetition of this sort of problem in my approach to cross-examination.
17 Secondly, Your Honour, some of the -- whether it's damage or
18 whatever, it's not that I would have chosen to do if I had known the
19 correct position about 20, 25 minutes ago, I would invite Your Honour, not
20 me, I would invite Your Honour to give Mrs. Plavsic a -- please, a very
21 clear indication that there has been an error for which and in this
22 particular case, Your Honour, I'm going to have to ask that it is made
23 crystal clear that it is no fault whatever of the Defence and that we have
24 been put at a disadvantage by a human error -- I don't mind that -- we
25 have been put at a disadvantage and Mrs. Plavsic should understand that
1 the Defence has operated under a considerable difficulty over the last
2 half hour as a result of an error and misunderstanding in relation to her
3 statement. That, we submit, is fair as a corrective measure in relation
4 to the Defence and the cross-examination.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So the brief answer would have been whether this
6 Chamber is willing to take action so that the translation is checked.
7 That's one. And second, to explain to Mrs. Plavsic what happened and
8 that -- that the Defence took the course based on an unfortunate --
9 MR. STEWART: Well, my answer is my answer, Your Honour, brief or
10 not. That's what I'm inviting Your Honour please to do.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My suggestion is that your answers are a bit
12 more brief but let's --
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honours always makes that suggestion, always,
14 always makes that suggestion; whether it advances the case one doesn't
15 really always know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I've still not given up the hope that you once
17 understand --
18 MR. STEWART: No, I dare say not, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Could Mrs. Plavsic be brought
20 into the courtroom again?
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour -- sorry. I was only going to suggest
22 that we then build in the actual signing of the statement at the
23 appropriate time in the process.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll do that.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Plavsic, we found ourselves in the very
2 unfortunate situation, as you have found out by yourself now as well, that
3 one line in the English did not appear in the copy on which you most
4 likely will have focused, that is the copy in your own language. That
5 should not have happened.
6 I meanwhile took an initiative to have the two copies carefully
7 compared whether everything that is in the one is in the other as well.
8 This is not a full check of the translation as such, but at least to see
9 that not a sentence appear in the one copy and not in the other. I took
10 action to see whether this can be done still when we are proceeding here.
11 Questions were put to you on that one specific line, and of course
12 Mr. Stewart was very insisting on an explanation, on a line which did not
13 appear in your language, and of course Mr. Stewart at that time had no
14 idea that it was not in your language. So therefore when at a certain
15 moment he was very insisting in this matter, and even when it took a
16 course which you might have considered not to be the most pleasant one,
17 certainly Mr. Stewart, who speaks perfect English but no B/C/S, is not in
18 any way responsible for that. I just want you to know that. And then
19 I'll invite Mr. Stewart to continue.
20 MR. O'SULLIVAN: My I just inform you, Your Honour I know you gave
21 specific instructions for Mrs. Plavsic not to discuss testimony during the
22 break. I did sit with her because she was obviously agitated. We didn't
23 discuss the testimony but we did discuss this problem just to --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, that's -- it's appreciated that you are
25 transparent on the matter and I think where in the beginning we said that
1 we do not have to give you further guidance as to what your role would be.
2 This Chamber would consider this to be within your role and I do not see
3 any disagreement by parties in this case. Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.
4 We continue and now, hopefully, without mistakes of this kind
5 which should not have been there.
6 Mr. Stewart.
7 MR. STEWART: May I say Your Honour that you 10 per cent met my
8 concerns and my requests for which I'm extremely grateful. Thank you.
9 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, who -- well, were, maybe are -- I'm sorry, I don't
10 know whether it's "are," Prince and princess Karadjordjevic?
11 A. Prince Tomislav Karadjordjevic is the second son of King
12 Aleksandar Karadjordjevic who was the King of Yugoslavia before World War
13 2, until 1934 when he was killed in Marseilles. And after that he was
14 supposed to have been succeeded by his oldest son Petar, and until he
15 reached the age of 18, Yugoslavia was governed by a commissioning body.
16 Then after World War II, the Communists came to power and the dynasty was
17 forbidden from returning. And then in the period after the death of Tito
18 there was a certain degree of democratisation. Certain things changed to
19 a degree. So I don't know exactly when Prince Tomislav -- he is not the
20 heir to the crown according to the proper succession, but he was allowed
21 to return to Belgrade. And his wife is an Englishwoman, Princess Linda. I
22 saw her in Frankfurt. I respect highly all the members of our dynasty.
23 If you ask me, I am a monarchist, even though that is very far from being
24 actually realised. But not only do I respect them for being who they are,
25 but they are also good people.
1 And when he had to leave the country, he was a young boy perhaps
2 of 11 years or so, and of course he wanted to return. He died in 2000 in
3 Belgrade. At that time, it was two and a half years that the Milosevic
4 authorities forbade me from entering Serbia, and permits were issued so
5 that -- even Crown Prince Aleksandar was issued a permit to come the
6 funeral. I was issued with that kind of permit to attend the funeral and
7 return immediately. I don't know if you need any more information.
8 Q. What we do see -- thank you, Mrs. Plavsic. What we see from your
9 statement was that -- at the end -- it's paragraph 23. At the end of
10 April, 1992, the prince asked you if you would go with Princess Linda to
11 some places in Bosnia-Herzegovina and you specifically say that you went
12 to Foca. In a -- in a nutshell, please, if I may put it that way,
13 Mrs. Plavsic, what was the role of -- of Prince Tomislav Karadjordjevic
14 and Princess Linda in all this at this time?
15 A. There was no official role. They were members of the dynasty,
16 patriots. They had heard -- they also had the opportunity to see and to
17 read in the foreign press about how Serbs were committing atrocities on
18 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 I must tell you that General Morillon told me at that there was a
20 media war being waged against Serbs. I can give you the whole
21 sentence. "Perhaps you will win this war but, Mrs. Plavsic, you have
22 already lost the media war." This was 1993. At that time, I did not
23 quite understand that something like that could happen, but it did happen
24 in this war.
25 And I remember that General Nambiar, in his report to the Security
1 Council said that the media, to a considerable part, contributed to the
2 evil in Bosnia and Herzegovina. For a while, he was the UNPROFOR
3 commander in chief in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the war.
4 To go back to Prince Tomislav Karadjordjevic and his wife,
5 Princess Linda. He asked me is this true. I said it's
6 impossible. "Biljana, would you go together with Linda, because she would
7 like to see for herself." Princess Linda had a way of publishing the
8 truth. At least she thought that she had a way of making it possible to
9 have the truth published, even in the British parliament. In this way,
10 the Minister of Internal Affairs at the time in Blair's government, John
11 Reid, he actually came twice on the recommendation of Princess Linda to
12 see for himself what was going on.
13 But let me say something about Foca. We went early in the morning
14 by plane and returned in the same plane that evening to Foca. There was
15 Princess Linda, but not only her. There were many people who were
16 bringing in humanitarian aid, mostly medicines. The hospitals were poorly
17 supplied with medicines. We went to Foca. We talked with the municipal
18 government. I asked them about the hospital, could we go to the hospital,
19 and at the hospital we were given a report about the state of affairs
20 there. We visited all the patients. I didn't and she isn't either ask
21 who was who, whether they were Serbs, Muslims or Croats. They were all
22 being treated equally.
23 But I believe that it was useful because she heard that there was
24 a shortage of antibiotics. So she focused all of her effort to tell
25 others there were no antibiotics at the hospitals and that she also would
1 help. She did have -- I can't say a major opportunity, but she did have a
2 opportunity to help. She did form an impression, even though it was a
3 brief staying from morning until the evening. When I say the evening, it
4 doesn't mean that we were there in Foca from morning to evening. The
5 plane flew to Podgorica. Then there was a car from Podgorica to Niksic,
6 and then from Niksic via Pluzine to Foca. I think that the trip took a
7 long time. The actual time spent in Foca was actually not more than a
8 couple of hours. So for her to form an impression, it would have been
9 necessary to stay in Foca for a few days, and then she would have been
10 able to really perform the job that she came there to perform, but we did
11 manage to achieve something. They did get antibiotics. The same thing
12 happened in Foca. We returned and then Prince Tomislav said, "Do you want
13 to go to Zvornik now?" So I also wasn't to Zvornik with Princess Linda
14 again, and I think according to the protocol -- I didn't know anybody
15 there. We would go to the municipal office and ask, "Could you provide me
16 such-and-such information?" And I know in the end they told us, "If you
17 want, you can go and visit Muslim houses and talk with their families,"
18 and that's what we did. I think that we entered four or five houses. I
19 know exactly which houses, where we went to these houses, and we did get
20 information. We talked not with Serbs but with Muslims.
21 Q. If I may, Mrs. --
22 A. If you're interested in what they told us and how all of this
23 finished, I can tell you.
24 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, first of all if I may just ask you a quick series of
25 short questions just to get some things sorted out and then we could come
1 back to any of these other matters as necessary. You say that you'd been
2 asked by prince Tomislav if you could escort Princess Linda to some places
3 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. You went to Foca. You went to Zvornik, as you
4 described. Did you go to any other municipalities pursuant to that
5 request from Prince Tomislav?
6 A. I think that that was that. It was a very brief period. I had to
7 return to Sarajevo. My mother was alone, but during that time my brother
8 was there but he couldn't stay there. I think that all together it took
9 perhaps three days. After three days, I came back to Sarajevo.
10 Q. That's very helpful, Mrs. Plavsic. I just wanted to get that
11 clear. And then following your visits then to Foca and to Zvornik, did
12 you and/or Princess Linda, did you then give a report to anybody? And I'm
13 meaning any sort of report, formal, informal, official, unofficial. Did
14 you report back to somebody?
15 A. First of all, I was no longer a member of the Presidency of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina when this happened. You need to know that.
17 Q. Let's follow that up. This request was nothing to do with the
18 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was it? It didn't come from them.
19 It wasn't -- it wasn't --
20 A. I was no longer a member as of the 8th of April, and this was --
21 it's hard to say. Perhaps in mid-April or more towards the end of April.
22 I'm not sure. In any case, I was no longer a member of the Presidency of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the war had already started.
24 Q. Can we clear this out of way then? These visits to Foca and
25 Zvornik, they were not at the request of the Presidency of Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina. They were not instigated by them. You were under no
2 obligation to report back to that Presidency and you didn't report back to
3 that Presidency. Is that all correct? Is that all correct?
4 A. Yes, yes. That's correct. On the 8th of April I left the
5 Presidency building and I never went back.
6 Q. So -- so --
7 A. And I never went back to the town because the town was already
8 full of posters of Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic, and me, and on the
9 posters there was the slogan "War criminals," so it was dangerous to go
11 Q. So to whom, if anybody, to whom did you and Princess Linda report
12 what you had seen and found in Foca and Zvornik?
13 A. No report to anyone. I was not in any kind of official position
14 to submit a report to anyone. Maybe I spoke with someone and said I went
15 with Linda there. She promised that she would bring antibiotics, but --
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
17 A. -- we're talking about events from 14 years ago.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
19 A. You're younger than me. I don't know if you would remember things
20 like that.
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 A. Had I known that I would be in this position, I would probably
23 have had a piece of paper with me all the time, and I would have been
24 jotting things down just in case.
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mrs. Plavsic, but the -- I --
1 I've got to use a different word. Did you tell anybody when you returned
2 from Foca and Zvornik, did you tell anybody the details of what you had
3 seen and found in those municipalities?
4 A. To Prince Tomislav, definitely.
5 Q. That's --
6 A. Because we returned, and in those talks with the Muslim population
7 in their homes we found out that many people fled to Loznica, across the
8 bridge, that they got frightened. Loznica is in Serbia.
9 Q. Did you tell --
10 A. And I -- I was not -- I had to return to Sarajevo to care for my
11 mother, so I was not able to. And then Princess Linda says, "I'm going to
12 visits the refugees in Loznica." I'm sure she did that. She told me she
13 did that.
14 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, I'm delighted we got back on the right track after
15 that interruption a short while ago, and you and I do have the difficulty
16 of interpretations and pauses and so on so I apologise if I seem to be
17 interrupting you abruptly. But did you tell any of the Bosnian Serb
18 leadership what you had seen and found in Foca or Zvornik?
19 A. When I fled to Pale, of course I told them. I can't remember that
20 it was a report, not like a report that I wrote about Kupres and these
21 visits that we already talked about.
22 Q. Did you --
23 A. There was no report, no.
24 Q. When you were in Foca or in Zvornik, did you see or hear anything
25 which led you to the conclusion that beyond the inevitable unhappy
1 consequences of a violent civil conflict there had been unacceptable
2 criminal activities by anybody?
3 A. No. That's why I said earlier you can never, even if you write a
4 report, you cannot say 100 per cent that something is just like that,
5 something is so. But in a situation, to be able to know exactly what the
6 situation was, two hours was simply not enough. The municipality and the
7 people who worked there, when we were there we never heard anything like
8 that from them. And I would also like to say that we insisted that we
9 went to the hospitals is possible to see what could be done, what Princess
10 Linda could do, actually, for the hospital. I cannot say that this wasn't
11 so. Now that we are talking about this 14 years later, after so many
12 articles in the newspapers that I have read after the entire material, 80
13 per cent of what I know now comes from here, what I have read here after I
14 was indicted.
15 Q. Mrs. Plavsic --
16 A. Yes, I would just like to tell you, please.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Tell the Court --
18 A. I have to tell you this. Everything is known today. I recently
19 read a book. I do receive books. I ask for books. I want to know
20 everything, even though I'm at the end of my life. The secret services of
21 Serbia, from 1945 to 2005, I want to know the times in which I lived and
22 the environment in which I lived. So there, everything is stated.
23 The son of Sefer Halilovic, who was a boy of 8 or 9 during the
24 war, he's a young man now, who wrote a book, and that book was a
25 revelation for me. He's a child as far as I'm concerned, but he has
1 stated many truths. His father also wrote a book, "Cunning Strategy," but
2 this book is a real revelation. And when you compile all this information
3 from various sources then you can have an idea. And I do have it and I'm
4 very happy to have this in my head, but it's very hard to say now what you
5 knew then and what you know now.
6 I can say my head is full of all of these things, that I know
7 about those events, and I can't say that I'm very happy about that, but
9 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, on what you saw and heard and found on those visits
10 to Foca and Zvornik, was there any basis on which you could have told
11 anybody, including the Bosnian Serb leadership, that there might have been
12 war crimes, crimes against humanity, gratuitous killing or other violence
13 towards civilians or any crimes of that nature?
14 A. No. I believed that I would have some information about that. To
15 this day I believe that the refugees in Loznica could provided more
16 information, but I didn't go there, Princess Linda did. At that time, she
17 spoke our language and she was not accompanied by an interpreter. She
18 could speak our language, but I'm not sure if she could get all the finer
20 But I can tell you one more thing. In that kind of situation,
21 people, whether they were Muslim, Serb, or Croat, tended to be withdrawn
22 and afraid to speak.
23 When I saw that elderly women in Muslim homes kiss Arkan's hand, I
24 laughed and I said, "You only kiss the hand of a Vladika," which is a
25 Serbian Orthodox Bishop. And I realised they were kissing his hand out of
1 fear. If you ask asked me, no matter how afraid I was I would never kiss
2 his hand, even if it would save my life. But people are different.
3 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Mrs. Plavsic. Your Honour, I don't want
4 to have to do this too often but if Your Honours who have that information
5 much more readily available at the press of a button. I wonder if
6 Your Honours could indicate how much time I have had, and then it might
7 be, may I respectfully suggest, appropriate to renew the inquiry made of
8 Mr. Tieger or follow it up. That was most helpful at that time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think from my latest report you are coming close to
10 one and a half hours.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes, that's helpful.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then the second question. Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: I can't be quite as die I definitive and helpful as I
14 was last time Your Honour but I would say not a great deal. But there are
15 a couple of things that need to be looked at but at this point I would
16 estimate no more than 15 minutes and it might not be that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Fifteen minutes.
18 MR. STEWART: That's helpful both from Your Honours and the
19 Prosecution. Thank you for that.
20 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, in your statement, I wonder if you could go to
21 paragraph 45, please. And you say there -- it's under the heading
22 Grbavica, and you say that "In June or July, 1992, I was informed by
23 people living in Grbavica, which was under Serb control at that time, that
24 a person called Batko and an armed group around him were doing bad things
25 to non-Serbs there. I understood this to mean they were submitting crimes
1 against non-Serbs."
2 First of all, Mrs. Plavsic, in -- from whom and in what way did
3 that information come to you?
4 A. I went to attend a meeting with Mrs. Ogata that was scheduled to
5 take place at 11.00 in Lukavica, and I was passing through a very busy
6 intersection --
7 Q. First of all, tell us who Mrs. Ogata was? It's in your interview,
8 I see. It's a new name in this case as far as I'm aware. Who was she,
10 A. Mrs. Sadako Ogata was for the entire duration of the war and even
11 after the war when she came once to see me in Banja Luka, was a
12 representative of the United Nations dealing exclusively with matters
13 related to refugees.
14 Q. Yes. And you were going to -- thank you for that Mrs. Plavsic.
15 And then you were going to explain how you came by this information.
16 A. I was on my way to Lukavica, as I said, but time was not pressing.
17 I started early. But this busy intersection that I mentioned is sheltered
18 from Sarajevo by a small hill so that people met there in peace, talked,
19 waited to see if anybody would give them a lift. And when somebody saw me
20 in the car, a group of people started waving to me, people I didn't know.
21 I told the driver to stop, and they told me, "Mrs. Plavsic, do you know
22 what's going on in Grbavica?" I used to live in Grbavica, and I had fled
23 from there. I'm not trying to say that I would not be interested in
24 hearing about other neighbourhoods as well, but Grbavica is the closest to
25 me because I used to live there. My university department was just across
1 the bridge, and most of the faculty had apartments on the other side of
2 the bridge, including myself. And I was astonished when they mentioned
3 it. They didn't give me any details, but they said ugly things are
4 happening in Grbavica.
5 All the people by the way in that group who were telling me this
6 were Serbs. And they mentioned this name, Batko. I took that very
7 seriously indeed. I told the driver, "Let's go across the hill down
8 there. I think we'll make it by 11.00, and then we'll go."
9 I thought this -- this matter was going to be a priority for me,
10 but I thought that I could do it all, including the meeting, which was
11 very important. So I went straight to the municipality building, which
12 was the norm the thing to do if you come to a place you don't know.
13 Sometimes when I went to Grbavica I would go to my colleague Krunoslav
14 Ljolja and talk to him or some of the other people. I knew many people in
15 Grbavica. But at the municipality, they had responsibility. It was their
16 obligation. I didn't know any of them from my past in Grbavica, so I went
17 to see the president of municipality and told him straight away, "I was
18 told by some Serbs here that such-and-such things are happening. Who is
19 Batko?" That's the question I asked.
20 They sort of looked down, wouldn't look me in the eyes. Their
21 demeanour in itself made me suspicious. I told them that they had the
22 responsibility, that they should take care, but I had to go. So I told
23 them good-bye and went to see a young man whom I knew through his mother,
24 who lived in the same building as I. The boy doesn't really know me. I
25 was just a familiar fast. And I asked him, "Zoran, can you tell me is
1 there a person named Batko in Grbavica?" I'm sorry for this young man.
2 He died later. He told me, "I know. I know." And at that moment, a
3 group came into the room led by a very stocky, short man built like a
4 boxer, wearing a Serbian peasant hat. He was not really wearing a
5 uniform, but he had some weapons. And he just stood there looking at me.
6 And I decided immediately that the people from the municipality to whom I
7 had talked must have informed him.
8 His way of looking at me was not pleasant. Zoran took me out of
9 the room and he said, "Mrs. Plavsic, that is Batko." After that, I left,
10 and it never crossed my mind that anybody in Pale had any idea that there
11 existed such a man who was threatening the lives of people in Grbavica.
12 It was almost 11.00 by that time --
13 Q. What was his other name, this Batko?
14 A. I don't know. To this day I have no idea.
15 Q. In your -- I don't think you need be troubled with having the
16 piece of paper, Mrs. Plavsic, but in your interview with Mr. Nilsson, and
17 it's tape 7, page 18, you -- there's a passage that begins -- you refer to
18 the minister of transport in Japan, and you say, "He immediately resigned
19 because this one railway you know, I don't know three minute was late."
20 I'm just reading verbatim the English. "And he resigned."
21 A. Yes, but the train was three minutes late.
22 Q. They do these things properly in Japan. "And when they started to
23 defend themselves, I said no, I am not. I am the person to search for
24 that, but you coward, you are responsible, and you need to resign
25 immediately and to put this person in gaol." Mr. Nilsson said, "You said
1 they were defending themselves. What did they say exactly?" And then the
2 transcript then says, you speaking, "Ma," you see --
3 A. Excuse me. I think -- or maybe it was me when I spoke, but I
4 think you just skipped something. I will, if you let me, come to this
5 Japanese train very quickly.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Japanese train is not at the core of
7 our --
8 MR. STEWART:
9 Q. It's that the train, it's is a wonderful practice, the could
10 introduce it in the United Kingdom, but the train and the ministers
11 resignation for it being three minutes late is not the issue,
12 Mrs. Plavsic. I don't think I have missed anything from the transcript?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Plavsic, perhaps Mr. Stewart continues quoting
14 from what is the transcript of the audio recording of the interview.
15 MR. STEWART: Yes, and probably Your Honours are following it so
16 I -- right. Thank you. Yeah, bear with me, Mrs. Plavsic, we can pick up
17 any points, no doubt, later. It just says, for whatever reason, it says
18 "Ma," you see, "I thought I ought to describe that Batko on that start,"
19 question mark, something on the transcript, "so, and this minister for
20 transport, he started to laugh, 'Uh-hu, Batko.' I was shocked that they
21 know this person. Batko was unknown for me before. First time I -- I --
22 I was informed that this person exists and that this person doing bad
23 things, that altogether in one hour, and I started to describe them how
24 this Batko looks like this minister said, 'Oh, this Batko. You know how
25 to -- how to explain.' The only conclusion was that he's known them for
1 long time."
2 Mrs. Plavsic, it may seem rather silly, but are we to understand
3 from that -- no, let me ask the question, please, are we to understand
4 from that that Batko was personally known previously to the minister of
5 transport for Japan?
6 A. Please, just let me explain. The minister of Japan -- from Japan
7 has nothing to do with all that, nor does our minister of transport in
8 Republika Srpska if we had one. There were two ministers involved, one
9 Minister of Justice and the other the minister of interior.
10 MR. STEWART: Mrs. Plavsic -- may I, Your Honour?
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm going to intervene at this point. In this
12 transcript it -- it looks a bit -- at least there seems -- or there may
13 have been some confusion. When you said, "He started to laugh. Uh-huh,
14 Batko. I was shocked that they know this person."
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: "Batko was unknown to me before."
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Simple question: Who started to laugh and
19 said, 'Ha, Batko'?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Minister of Justice.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And on what occasion exactly? Did you have a meeting
22 at that moment with the Minister of Justice?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to that meeting with
24 Mrs. Ogata - I'm going to explain this very quickly - and all the time I
25 was thinking that I was going to return quickly to Pale to make that
1 meeting as short as possible, because I needed to go to Pale to inform
2 Karadzic and Krajisnik about this, and I was thinking that everything was
3 going according to plan, that everything was fine, because when I opened
4 my room I opened the door of the room, I saw Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik,
5 and two ministers whom I believed to be relevant to the conversation that
6 I wanted to initiate and the report that I wanted to make. Everybody was
7 there together. And I think I even said it in so many words, "It's good
8 that you're all here."
9 JUDGE ORIE: Who was there.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Minister of Justice Mandic,
11 Momcilo Mandic; and the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I continue here. You then describe at
13 least in the transcript, "I was shocked that they know this person." Who
14 are they?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Minister of Justice. When I
16 said, "Do you know, are you aware of what's going on in Grbavica? Because
17 you should know. You'd have to know. Some person called Batko," and then
18 the Minister of Justice smiled and said, "Oh, Batko." And after that I
19 said, "Don't tell me that you know him." And I needed to say no more.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The line reads in plural, "I was shocked that they
21 know this person." You now explained to us that you heard from the
22 Minister of Justice that he knew who Batko was. Nevertheless, you used
23 the plural.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both of them were --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did this person know who Batko was or expressed who
1 Batko was or was this a mistake and it was just the Minister of Justice?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand your point. It
3 was my impression that the Minister of Justice definitely knew him,
4 because he himself said, "Uh-huh, Batko." But I also had the impression
5 that the other minister knew him, too, the minister of the interior.
6 I had the impression -- I mean, I thought I would be telling them
7 something new, and instead I was telling it to some -- to people who
8 already knew about this. So I said, "So you know about this." And then
9 came the other point when I mentioned that Japanese train. Regardless of
10 what's the reason, such things happen, but you are the Minister of
11 Justice. You have to resign immediately.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That point is taken. So you had a meeting with
13 Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Stanisic, and Mr. Mandic. From the words
14 spoken by Mr. Mandic, you understood that he knew who Batko was, and from
15 the absence of any further inquiries by the others, you concluded that
16 they were not unfamiliar with that situation regarding Batko. Is that
17 correctly understood?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, the minister of the
19 interior at Pale should know what's going on in all of his territory let
20 alone Grbavica.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. I wouldn't say I disagree with you, but
22 I'm just about to establish whether I correctly understood you that in
23 this meeting by the words spoken by Mr. Mandic you observed that he knew
24 who Batko was. And then for the others present it was on the basis of
25 their behaviour that they concluded that they were at least aware of the
1 situation as you describe it at that moment. If that's correctly
2 understood, then Mr. Stewart will continue putting questions to you.
3 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, can we just get very clear --
5 A. Let's me just say this: As far as Mr. Mandic is concerned, from
6 his reaction, such as it was when he said, "Ah, Batko," I realised they
7 all knew. Why did I mention that train? I was talking to the minister of
8 the interior, and I said if you know this --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I intervened at the time where it was time for
10 Mr. Stewart to put questions to you. I've put one or two questions to
11 you. I've received the answers. It's now for Mr. Stewart to focus your
12 attention on what he'd like you to tell us.
13 MR. STEWART: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Stewart, I am looking at the
15 clock. If you'd say I'll try to finish in, well, I don't know - of course
16 it's your time - within somewhere in the next 10 to 12 minutes we would
17 continue otherwise we'll have a break now and resume at ten minutes to
19 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, can I -- perhaps I might ask
20 again for guidance as to -- because obviously the instructions of the
21 Trial Chamber, the timing lead to -- the need for some fairly
22 business-like calculations. First of all, may I ask Your Honour with
23 respect, we have today, now do we, until quarter to 2.00, and quarter to
24 2.00 and that's it, or what?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We -- we are scheduled today for the morning
1 session, and even if it with take five or ten minutes more, that's not a
2 matter but now try to finish this morning.
3 MR. STEWART: Yes, and so, Your Honour, that means, well, if we
4 had five to ten minutes more that would take us to 2.00. If we had a
5 break now, does Your Honour have in mind the usual break. We have to see
6 Mr. Krajisnik in this break as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We have the break of 20 minutes.
8 MR. STEWART: So we would have 70 minutes, Your Honour.
9 Your Honour, such matters as the last few minutes -- after all, this is a
10 clear error on the transcript of the interview, with the minister of
11 transport for Japan being incorrectly substituted for one of the Bosnian
12 Serb ministers. That's not really my time, with respect.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it's a mistake or not but at
14 least it gives information which is -- needs interpretation.
15 MR. STEWART: Well, if it's not a mistake, Your Honour, then we
16 have to unravel the last ten minutes' answers. That's the only possible
18 JUDGE ORIE: Not a mistake whether they've written down but
19 whether Mrs. Plavsic had that at times --
20 MR. STEWART: Understand, Your Honour, yes, I accept that
21 entirely; a mistake on one level or another, yes, absolutely.
22 Your Honour, it's only a little while since I asked but these are quite
23 fine-tuned calculations. Now, how long have I had, please?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Of course I -- one second. You're approximately --
25 you're coming close to two hours at this moment, Mr. Stewart.
1 MR. STEWART: Yes. That's -- well, Your Honour.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. STEWART: We won't quibble, Your Honour, but reserve the right
4 to quibble, if we may. Our calculation comes out slightly differently.
5 That would leave me with 40 minutes. Your Honour, may I say this, the
6 Prosecution then, assuming that there's not anything -- vast increase on
7 what they indicated a short time ago, about 15 minutes or so.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger is nodding yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Yes that's most helpful, Your Honour. Your Honour,
10 if I said that I would therefore continue for 20 minutes after the break,
11 would that be helpful, Your Honour, on the understanding that I then do
12 have in reserve four the Defence time and there is then sufficient time
13 allowed when the Prosecution have had their second bite at the cherry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I suggest the following. We'll have a break
15 now. We'll then resume at five minutes to 1.00. Then if you would take
16 until a quarter past 1.00 after the break then Mr. Tieger would use
17 approximately his 15 minutes. He's -- he had in mind and then the
18 remaining time some additional questions can be put to you by you Mr.
19 Stewart. The Chamber in further allotting the time and in further
20 evaluating on how time was allotted and how -- we'll allow you to use the
21 time always and that's, I would say, standard procedure takes into
22 consideration also how time was used and the parties can expect the
23 Chamber to stop no later than 2.00.
24 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, may I just remind Your Honour I
25 reserve my position in relation to that last comment as well but
1 Your Honour I hope Your Honours haven't forgotten that the matter which I
2 have to explore in the break now with Mr. Krajisnik is the question of
3 questions from Mr. Krajisnik.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that, that that's one of the
5 issues. Yes, Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: Yes and during the break I'll look to see if whether
7 I need any or all of that time and we'll inform the court accordingly and
8 just want to note that I presume that any time in -- held in reserve by
9 Mr. Stewart is for the same purposes of the time held in reserve.
10 MR. STEWART: Not entirely, Your Honour. I've specifically given
11 up some of my time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 1.00.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I ask something?
14 Do you have five minutes' time for me for a topic which is very far
15 removed from all of this here?
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider that after the break at the end.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. It has nothing
18 to do with this.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at five minutes to 1.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Just a brief remark before we continue. Time
23 management is not one of my strongest points. It certainly is not just
24 out of nothing, even if I may give the impression now and then. We have
25 taken into consideration the time allotted by the parties, the time used
1 by the parties, the balance between the parties that was on the mind of
2 the Judges, that was one Prosecution, two for the Defence, the relevance
3 the issues raised and the room given to the witness to expound on less
4 relevant issues, we've taken everything into account. We proceed on the
5 basis that, Mr. Stewart, you have your 20 minutes as asked. Then,
6 Mr. Tieger, you'll have 15 minutes.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And then remaining time will be not just -- just for
9 the Defence. Yes.
10 MR. TIEGER: I'm sure it's helpful for everyone for me to note at
11 this time that based on the questions asked at this point I will not need
12 any additional time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then since the witness also asked to add
14 something to her statement, and it may well be that we have one or two
15 quick questions as well, but, does this -- Mr. Stewart, in view of the
16 fact that unless that would change on the basis of the following
17 questions, you can then take the next 30 minutes.
18 MR. STEWART: That's very kind, Your Honour. Can I just be
19 clear? In effect the Court has -- in light of all the circumstances the
20 Court has purported to cut my allowance and there is now 30 minutes left?
21 Is that the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, no. The remainder of the time, I had in mind
23 the time you would have and after 30 minutes we'll have a look at whether
24 Mr. Tieger needs any additional time.
25 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour I'm just --
1 JUDGE ORIE: As I said before it's not just a matter of
2 mathematics. For example, one of the problems is how to attribute time to
3 procedural incidents. It would go too far to give a full detail here,
4 someone intervened for one minute, my two questions there be accounted,
5 too; that's what I said, no arithmetics.
6 MR. STEWART:
7 MR. TIEGER: I think we wanted to get started forthwith I just
8 wanted to mention again the signing yesterday.
9 MR. STEWART: I just would like to say, Your Honour, that the
10 Defence reserves its position on the basis that our position is that
11 however it's calculated and whatever consideration, taking account -- and
12 however the arithmetic is done, we have been we have been unfairly
13 deprived of the allocation that the court had in mind yesterday for no
14 proper reason. But, Your Honour, obviously I now comply with Your
15 Honour's direction and keep within that time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The remainder of the time will be used as the Court
17 deems fit. Please proceed.
18 MR. STEWART: Well, of course. Well, it always is, ultimately,
19 Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. STEWART:
22 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, this -- the matter concerning Batko and Grbavica, do
23 you know whether following your meeting back in Pale which you say
24 Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and the two ministers, Stanisic and Mandic,
25 were present, do you know whether any action was in fact taken officially
1 against Batko?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So would it come as a surprise to you to know that indeed it was
4 and that after proposals made by military security ultimately Batko's
5 activities were stopped by official organs? Would that surprise you to
6 know that?
7 A. I didn't finish. So let me say it now. I did have a way of
8 finding out whether he was still active there, and I received information.
9 How I obtained the information is not important now.
10 Batko stopped his activities. Batko is still at Grbavica, and
11 then for a month I received this information, and then a man told me Batko
12 has disappeared from Grbavica. How? I have just heard from you, as you
13 say, if it's the military police or something like that.
14 What I was interested in is whether he was still doing what he was
15 doing. But he stopped then. He probably got scared.
16 Q. Well --
17 A. He was a dangerous man.
18 Q. Well --
19 A. And from that time on my life was in danger but -- and it wasn't
20 just from him, by Mandic as well. He -- actually, there were open threats
21 against me and my brother. There were threats that my brother would be
22 killed because in that way I would suffer more than if we were to kill me.
23 I'm glad to hear you say that it was the military police. I
24 didn't know that. All I knew was that it had stopped, and I believed the
25 person whom I entrusted with monitoring what was going on at Grbavica,
1 because I as a member of the Presidency did not have access to
2 information, official information. Ever.
3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... visit to Grbavica to look
4 into this Batko issue been an official visit or had you just gone on your
5 own initiative without reference to any other official organs?
6 A. I was a member of the Presidency. They knew that, the people in
7 Grbavica, and it was generally known. I said earlier that many of my
8 colleagues from university had apartments at Grbavica. I had a
9 schoolmate from elementary school. He was a Muslim, at the university,
10 and when we, let's say even got old he was there with his wife. And of
11 course I am answering the question. I'm answering the question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Plavsic. Mr. Stewart, did I miss something? I
13 heard the testimony to be that Mrs. Plavsic was on her way to a meeting at
14 Lukavica, that at a crossroad or she was stopped by people informing her
15 that there was a Batko doing bad things, that she then instructed her
16 driver to go over the hill and to see what happened on the other side.
17 Have I misunderstood it? Because ...
18 MR. STEWART: No, that's helpful, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And therefore what.
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour's point is correct I'll move on if I may
21 then to something else.
22 JUDGE ORIE: This is what I mean, relevance and efficiency.
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is absolutely right about that one.
24 Well done, Your Honour. You are right. That's helpful. I'll move on.
25 Q. Mrs. -- Mrs. Plavsic, the -- you had -- in your interview you had
1 said -- you said to Mr. Karadzic, and this is page 19, tape 7, "Batko in
2 gaol or these two ministers," by which you meant Mandic and Stanisic.
3 From your point of view at that time, if Batko's activities were
4 definitely stopped, then that would have been all concerned performing
5 their primary duty to make sure these things didn't happen, wouldn't it?
6 A. In my opinion, the ministers were not performing their duties
7 because Batko should have been arrested and brought to trial. When I
8 heard that his activities had stopped but when I heard that he was still
9 at Grbavica after that, I couldn't understand that. There was no need for
10 any special laws of war.
11 You know, in the state of war, all laws are much stricter, but
12 regular laws had to be respected. If someone was harassing people,
13 killing people, it don't mean that once he stopped doing that he was free
14 to walk around. His presence was something that frightened people. I'm
15 not a person that's easily scared, but I'll tell you, I was scared. Can
16 you imagine how others felt?
17 Q. What -- in what way was your life indicated to you to be in danger
18 in some way at the hands of -- or instigation of Mr. Mandic?
19 A. Mr. Mandic sent me a message to be very careful when starting the
20 engine of the car. You know very well. I mean he probably meant
21 explosives. Later, openly, he was so powerful and he was so unafraid and
22 it was so terrible that he said, "I changed my plan. I'm not going to
23 kill her. I'm going to kill her brother instead, because that way she
24 would suffer more."
25 Q. Where did he say that and to whom?
1 A. To my driver. I didn't have an escort or anything like that. I
2 believed that that was not necessary, but I did have a loyal driver, and
3 he was afraid. After that, I told him, "You have children. I have to
4 tell you, even though I'm a member of the Presidency and even though you
5 are doing this job officially and you're driving me, you have to decide.
6 I really cannot vouch for your life." And he did stay with me.
7 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, I -- I -- I hope and take it that in fact no harm
8 did come to your brother. Is that correct?
9 A. No, thank God. No.
10 Q. Could I hand to you, please, your -- your book, the one that is
11 referred to in your statement.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's actually Mr. Krajisnik's copy. I
13 hope Mrs. Plavsic is happy to use that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: While it's handed out I can inform the parties
15 that --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have a copy. Just tell me the
18 MR. STEWART: Mr. [Previous translation continues] ... his own
19 copy. Then thank you very much, Mrs. Plavsic. He can have that back.
20 JUDGE ORIE: While this is being done, I inform the parties that
21 the comparison between the two statements did not show any further
23 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you. And we appreciate that being done
24 so quickly, Your Honour. That's most helpful.
25 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, could you turn, please, to page 286.
1 A. Of the book.
2 Q. Of the book, yes. And this is one of the passages which has been
3 referred to in your statement and translated. And I'd like you to fine
4 the paragraph that begins in English "Twelve years later at the Krajisnik
5 trial in The Hague." Do you see that reference?
6 A. Yes, I found it. I know. I know it all.
7 Q. "Twelve years later --" you wrote it, Mrs. Plavsic, "Twelve years
8 later at the Krajisnik trial in The Hague a transcript of his conversation
9 with Mladic from 1992 was read. It revealed that military equipment was
10 being actively smuggled to the Muslims at the time. He suspected some
11 army members and said, 'If this is true as I have heard, then there's no
12 hope for the Serbian people.'"
13 First of all, Mrs. Plavsic, just to be clear, are you able to
14 follow the course of this trial in the prison in Sweden?
15 A. I receive newspapers from Belgrade, state newspapers, central
16 newspaper, the newspaper political as well as Glas Javnosti and Vecernje
17 Novosti. These are three daily newspapers. From Banja Luka I receive --
18 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, the -- there is implicit injunction from the Trial
19 Chamber that I should try to keep your answers short and -- to my
20 questions. So your source of information about the Krajisnik trial is --
21 is just what you read in newspapers described to you, is that -- the
22 answer to that question is yes, is it?
23 A. [No interpretation].
24 Q. Thank you. And then we continue, "I fully agree with what
25 Krajisnik said then, that there was no hope for our people because of that
1 but neither for any other people who trade with the enemy during a war.
2 Not because the enemy will be stronger but because this means total moral
3 erosion of individuals, the leadership, and the society. Why did Momo not
4 say so and support me when I spoke about it at the Assembly? Because he
5 was also involved in all this together with Karadzic. And why did he warn
6 Mladic in 1992 that some military personnel were also involved? Because
7 in this way he shifted the suspicion from the civilian authorities to the
8 military leadership. The president of the republic said openly in front
9 of the deputies that this had to be. On several occasions, I heard our
10 soldiers on the front line near Momo's house say that they were not going
11 to be able to resist for much longer the temptation to shell his house
12 which the Muslims were protecting as if it were theirs. They also said
13 that the house was full of ammunition and weapons for sale. They asked me
14 to tell Krajisnik that they would blow his house up. I think they did at
15 end the of the war. I did not pass on the soldiers' messages but invited
16 them to come to a meeting of the Assembly and tell the deputies what they
17 had told me. I said this at an Assembly and those involved in the sale
18 gave them an affirmative answer."
19 First of all, Mrs. Plavsic, when you were told by these soldiers
20 about what was apparently a considerable arms cache at Mr. Krajisnik's
21 house, did you believe them?
22 A. This happened several times.
23 Q. That wasn't my question --
24 A. I was --
25 Q. That wasn't my question, Mrs. Plavsic. I have very limited time
1 now, please, my question was did you believe them?
2 A. Yes, I did. But I told them to come to the Assembly and say that.
3 Q. Did you have any doubts, although you believed them as you did,
4 did you nevertheless have any doubts as to whether what they were telling
5 you might or might not be true?
6 A. No, I had no doubts.
7 Q. Did you reject immediately in your own mind any question of taking
8 it up with Mr. Krajisnik?
9 A. I clarified that at a much higher level. Before 80 deputies it I
10 put that question: Is it possible that ammunition and weapons are being
11 sold to our enemy? And the answer from President Karadzic was -- he was
12 very irritated by that, and I know that it was a very direct and
13 courageous question at that time, but I wanted to hear that from an
14 official, and he said, "Yes." I said, "Must that be so if we're selling
15 food which is coming as part of the humanitarian aid? Must we also sell
16 weapons?" I was stimulated to do that, because a woman who was working at
17 the factory, working on a specific profile of weapon, a specific bullet,
18 came to me and she said, "This bullet that I made, because it carries a
19 particular number, and my brother was killed in the past two days, and
20 perhaps I myself manufactured the bullet that killed my brother." That
21 was not the only such case either.
22 I announced that to the assembly, and the answer I got was yes.
23 And I said if food had to be sold, must ammunition be sold as well? The
24 answer was, "Yes, it must." What could I do?.
25 Q. Mrs. Plavsic --
1 A. Please don't ask me that any more. It's an enormous tragedy, and
2 I poured all of that into this text.
3 Q. I'm afraid I reserve the right to ask you anything relevant,
4 Mrs. Plavsic.
5 A. And excuse me, but when I read in the newspaper -- in the
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... restrain Mrs. Plavsic because
8 I have so little time left, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Plavsic, Mrs. Plavsic, at the end of your
10 testimony you will have an opportunity to -- as you asked, for five
11 minutes to add what you'd like to raise, but at this time Mr. Stewart is
12 entitled to ask you questions. Would you please focus on answering his
14 Please proceed Mr. Stewart.
15 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, you -- this is clear from your interviews: You did
17 and have felt excluded and had since early on in the war felt excluded by
18 your Bosnian Serb colleagues at times because you were a woman, didn't
20 A. No, I never suffered from that. We lived in a traditional
21 environment where such an approach is that -- actually, there are some
22 conversations that you do not conduct in front of women, so how can you
23 have a woman in politics now, and how -- but I think that that wasn't the
24 problem, because at the multi-party elections I received the highest
25 number of votes from -- out of all the Serbian candidates, which does not
1 reflect this traditional view. But the war had come and there is a lot of
2 that and since I'm part of that environment I do have an understanding of
3 it and perhaps that's what they also thought in the leadership. We are
4 just going to give her some humanitarian work, and we are going to be
5 doing men's work. And to me --
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm struggling to keep Mrs. Plavsic to
7 my questions in the remaining time. Thank you.
8 Q. Turn to page 113, 1-1-3, of your own book, please. See a
9 paragraph beginning "Koljevic and I"?
10 A. Is 13.
11 Q. "Koljevic and I were asked to establish contact." Do you see that
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Koljevic -- I'd like a short answer to this, please, Mrs. Plavsic,
15 in the first place. Koljevic was somebody in whom you had considerable
16 confidence and trust, wasn't he?
17 A. I wouldn't talk about trust, but we've had similar views.
18 Q. That's enough for my purposes, Mrs. Plavsic. The -- immediate
19 purposes. Six or seven lines do you -- you say, "The duties I was
20 entrusted with by the Assembly were entirely taken over by Krajisnik." Do
21 you see that sentence?
22 A. Yes, I see it.
23 Q. "Most likely an agreement with Radovan and some other party
24 officials. They all believed, and these are traditional ideas, that there
25 was no place for a woman in these times just before the war, and
1 especially not in wartime." That was a fair summary of how you felt was
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At the time that this information from the soldiers about the arms
5 cache came up how late in 1992 was that? You say it's late 1992. It's
6 not absolutely clear from the text. Do you remember when abouts it was?
7 All right it doesn't --
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. -- matter. Let's move on.
10 A. This was not in 1992, for sure. This was later, information about
11 trading in ammunition. I think that was later.
12 Q. So you think this information about the cache of arms in
13 Mr. Krajisnik's house that was later you say? Later than 1992? Correct?
14 Are you --
15 A. Yes. Let me say this: I had to hear that at least from five
16 sides, not just that, but many other things for me to then accept it.
17 Then I went to the Assembly and asked if this was true or not.
18 Q. Mrs. Plavsic --
19 A. So 1992 probably passed as the time when I was thinking about
20 these things. I just simply couldn't believe that. I kept saying,
21 "that's impossible, that's impossible." But later it turned out it was
23 Q. Well, Mrs. Plavsic, I make it clear Mr. Krajisnik's position is it
24 was impossible because there was no such cache of ammunition and weapons
25 in his house. That's what I put to you. But first of all Mrs. Plavsic
1 you have no idea, have you, whether that is or isn't true yourself.
2 A. The front line was there. That was some kind of border. I wasn't
3 at that border.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
5 A. Did you fighters were there.
6 Q. You have no idea yourself whether or not that was true, have you?
7 A. I think that it is true. If somebody cheats you once, twice, the
8 third time and keeps saying the same thing over and over again and then
9 the fourth time then -- sorry, go ahead.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The question that is put to you at this moment is
11 that you said, "I believed what they told me." Is there, apart from your
12 feeling, having been cheated or not? I mean, do you have any objective
13 information which would support what those said at that time to you? So
14 supporting beyond just believing what you were told.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to put it briefly, it's not my
16 personal knowledge. The same way that you asked me yesterday or the day
17 before whether they within to see Milosevic. I didn't follow them. I
18 wasn't in the room. So it's not based on personal knowledge. But I told
19 you in what way I knew.
20 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So here I think we're talking about
22 same category.
23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 MR. STEWART:
25 Q. Did you consider any alternative way of dealing with this matter
1 based on what you were told soldiers to go to the Assembly and publicly
2 open up this issue without even approaching Mr. Krajisnik, without taking
3 any steps to see whether this extreme allegation against one of your
4 colleagues in the leadership had any truth at all? Did you consider such
5 an alternative?
6 A. To this day I believe that I told it to them best, in the best
7 possible way. The Assembly is a public place, so they could have done it
8 the way I did it before the Assembly.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' request. We hear a lot of
10 shuffling of papers in the headphones it drowns out the witness's voice.
11 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, that's me. I'm just about to stop
12 shuffling altogether for the moment.
13 Q. Could you go to page 85 of your book, please, Mrs. Plavsic.
14 You've just talked about -- you've just talked about a rift between Banja
15 Luka SDS and SDS central office, and then there's a paragraph beginning,
16 do you see "There were people particularly -- particularly in the
17 Krajina"? Do you see a paragraph beginning -- do you see that? Do you
18 see that will paragraph? Yes.
19 A. I've found it.
20 MR. TIEGER: I don't think it's going on page 85.
21 MR. STEWART: I'm so sorry, did I say -- I thought I said 85.
22 Well, as a matter of fact, I did. It's page 85. You have the paragraph,
23 do you?
24 A. 85. Yes, Is that right?
25 Q. Yes, it is. It's not on 85? Well, according to the translation,
1 really --
2 MR. TIEGER: I was only trying to help.
3 MR. STEWART: I think it goes over the page no I appreciate help
4 is being given a I think the paragraph starts at 85 it probably goes over
5 to 86. Yes. There's a paragraph beginning "There were people
6 particularly in the Krajina." Do a you see that? "Who knew about his
7 criminal record and who later learned a about Krajisnik's criminal record
8 as well. I became aware of those periods in their lives when war was
9 already in full swing and after I fled Sarajevo for Pale towards the end
10 of May, 1992, I had been offered a to read the records but I refused to
11 admit that something like that could a possibly exist."
12 What criminal record did Mr. Krajisnik have, Mrs. Plavsic?
13 A. Before the war.
14 Q. At the time you're talking about in your book, you say you've
15 heard a about this, what criminal record did Mr. Krajisnik have?
16 A. Not in 1992. Before I knew that somebody with the name of a
17 Krajisnik and somebody with the name of Karadzic are living there in
18 Sarajevo. It was a time when I was involved in completely different work
19 that was going on, and it was reported in newspapers, I think. However,
20 when I went to Pale --
21 Q. Mrs. Plavsic, let's look at what you've written. "There were
22 people, particularly" the previous paragraph you're talking?
23 A. I know what I wrote.
24 Q. The previous paragraph you're talking all about the rift between
25 Banja Luka and Sarajevo, I am -- and you say "(I am speaking of 1991.)"
1 That's what it says. The very next one you say, "there were people
2 particularly in the Krajina who knew about his criminal record," that's
3 somebody else, "and you later learned about Krajisnik's criminal record as
4 well." We can bring it up-to-date, Mrs. Plavsic. Mr. Krajisnik is on
5 trial here what criminal record do you say Mr. Krajisnik has ever had?
6 A. Ask him. He knows much better than I.
7 Q. I don't need to ask him Ms. Plavsic. Mr. Krajisnik has no
8 criminal record and I therefore ask you to accept -- see if you do accept
9 now, that it is grossly irresponsible to have you -- let me finish. I'm
10 asking you to accept, please, it is grossly irresponsible for you,
11 especially for a man that Mr. Krajisnik is in, which he was when you wrote
12 this book, to go putting such false information in your book. Do you
13 accept that?
14 A. It's not false at all. It's not false at all. There is a record,
15 and I think it was maybe 1987, and that was the time when the two of them
16 became close. They were in remand, in a remand prison for -- for some
17 months, and I learned about that when I fled to Pale.
18 Q. Mrs. Krajisnik -- I'm so sorry. Mrs. Plavsic, do you know that
19 they were acquitted and do you know that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. -- Mr. Stewart, I'm going to stop you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you know that it happened. I
22 thought you were simply uninformed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you can put this to the witness and then
24 you should quote the full paragraph. The full paragraph, and I'll read it
25 to you, what you -- perhaps you'll read it with me. "There were people,
1 particularly in the Krajina, who knew about his criminal record and who
2 later learned about Krajisnik's criminal record as well. I became aware
3 of those periods in their lives when war was already in full swing and
4 after I fled Sarajevo for Pale towards the end of May, 1992. I had been
5 offered to read the records but I refused to admit that something like
6 that could possibly exist. And if it did, I felt it would hurt and
7 disorient me. I can only imagine how ordinary people would take it.
8 Anyway, it now seems irrelevant compared to the terrible tragedy that has
9 befallen us."
10 Where there are suggestions in your question, Mr. Stewart, that
11 the book here states as a fact that Mrs. Plavsic accepts a criminal
12 record, which is by the way a term which is multi-interpretable as well,
13 then that would be something the Chamber would have difficulties to accept
14 without any reservation.
15 MR. STEWART: First Your Honour I did read at lines 15 to 16, I
16 read, "As far as I refuse to admit something like that could possibly
17 exist." So the nub of the point Your Honour has just been making in my
18 submission I did fairly include in my citation from that paragraph. In
19 the interests of time, I did not go on to the rest of the paragraph which
20 I did not consider significantly affected the point. Maybe Your Honour
21 was right about that, maybe I was wrong. But that was and is still my
23 So far as Your Honour's interpretation of the text, I'm not going
24 to argue that in front of the witness, Your Honour; no doubt at some other
25 time. But I may observe that the witness has not resiled from the
1 assertion that Mr. Krajisnik had a criminal record one bit but has in fact
2 persisted with that contention in this court. And I'm so ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. STEWART: No, I'm out of time and I've finished, Your Honour.
5 It becomes matter of argument now. I've asked Mrs. Plavsic those
6 questions but maybe I'm to be given instructions by my client.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nevertheless, I have to tell you,
8 please, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Mr. Stewart.
12 MR. STEWART: I think -- I'm not being given specific instructions
13 in relation to my cross-examination, Your Honour. Your Honour knows our
14 position. We never in fact resiled from the position that
15 cross-examination ought to be limited to cross-examination by counsel, but
16 we live with the rulings that have been made.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any -- you have not been instructed. Then
18 there was an issue that you would discuss with Mr. Krajisnik whether there
19 would be any questions he would like to put and that should be questions
20 which would not have been foreseen and which could not have been discussed
21 in the normal way with counsel. I'm just verifying at this moment.
22 MR. STEWART: May I verify two or three things, Your Honour. I
23 understand although Mr. Josse and I thought differently a moment ago, I
24 understand I'm not being offered specific instructions by Mr. Krajisnik.
25 Now as to questions I as his counsel should put, which is the normal
1 course, I have also Your Honour of course in the break and when I've had
2 previous opportunities to discuss with Mr. Krajisnik the whole issues of
3 questions to Mrs. Plavsic, I'm bound to say Your Honour that the idea that
4 in the time available and in the circumstances we could have come anywhere
5 near almost doing more than just starting that exercise just impossible as
6 it happens so we are left with -- we were left at the end of the break
7 with unresolved issues as far as that goes so Your Honour the position is
8 I believe that Mr. Krajisnik himself which is where we are because counsel
9 would rather step aside in accordance with Your Honour's rulings here.
10 But Mr. Krajisnik himself has something to say on this subject.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik. Is there any -- my question to
12 you first would be is there any question you'd like to put to the witness
13 which could not reasonably have been put through counsel?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you are on notice of what I said
16 yesterday please keep that in mind.
17 Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Krajisnik might put a few questions to you as
18 well. I instruct you that -- not to enter into any debate. Listen to the
19 question. Try to answer the question as factual as possible, and if you
20 feel that you have difficulties in doing so, please address me and do not
21 enter into a debate with Mr. Krajisnik, because this is, as I said before,
22 is not a debating club.
23 Mr. Krajisnik.
24 Cross-examination by the Accused Krajisnik:
25 Q. Good day, Biljana.
1 A. Good day.
2 Q. I will not speak about the book. I'm one of those who read --
3 excuse me?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, no introductory comments whether
5 you'll speak about the book or not. Put questions. Nothing else.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I haven't seen Mrs. Biljana
7 for such a long time. I can't keep down to two or three sentences, and
8 otherwise I'll abide by your instructions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You may put questions to Mrs. Plavsic. Nothing else.
10 Please proceed.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right I will not ask questions
12 about the book just some questions I believe are a matter of
13 misunderstanding. You said yesterday --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, this is the last warning. I will
15 deprive you from the right to put any questions to the witness if you are
16 telling her to start with whether it's an about misunderstandings, about
17 books, or not. Put questions to Mrs. Plavsic if you want to use that
18 right. We allow you that right. And a strict ruling that should abide by
19 rules and that is put a question and do not give comments before you start
20 putting a question to the witness.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to protest, Your Honour. If
22 you don't let me ask the question then say so. I will ask my question
23 very properly and abide by your rules but please allow me to finish my
24 sentence. If I can't do that then I can't ask the question. I don't want
25 any sort of confrontation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you did what I
2 did not want to happen in this courtroom, that we start this kind of
3 debate. I warned you three times to put a question to the witness and
4 then after my third ruling you said I have to protest. Mr. Krajisnik.
5 You may now confer with your counsel to see whether any of the questions
6 you'd like to put to this witness could be put through counsel. If so,
7 he'll get an opportunity to do so. You're not further allowed to put
8 questions to Mrs. Plavsic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, it's of no use to speak at this moment
11 because I have the priority microphone open. Therefore, your words will
12 not be translated.
13 You have an opportunity to just briefly confer with Mr. Stewart
14 and Mr. Josse about any question that you'd like to put to Mrs. Plavsic
15 through counsel.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I -- sorry may I seek guidance,
17 again, Your Honour? This appears to be, as far as I can see it, this
18 appears to be a change in the court's ruling and a change in the Court's
19 approach as to questions by Mr. Krajisnik, counsel. These are not the
20 criteria that have previously been adopted in the past. Contrary to the
21 submissions of the Defence which have been supported by the bar council of
22 England and Wales and the Association of Defence Counsel in this
23 institution, Your Honours have allowed Mr. Krajisnik in relation to other
24 witnesses to ask questions against the judgement of counsel,
25 notwithstanding the judgement of counsel, additionally to counsel's
1 questions. If I'm clear that there's a change in the ruling then --
2 JUDGE ORIE: There's not a change in the ruling, Mr. Stewart, not
3 at all. What happened is that I warned, through you, Mr. Krajisnik very
4 clearly that this Chamber would be extremely strict in the way questions
5 would be put to a witness. I invited Mr. Krajisnik when he started saying
6 what he would not ask questions about and then when he started explaining
7 that it was about and that of course was an important issue that it was
8 about -- let me just find the text exactly.
9 MR. STEWART: Well --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I warned him three times and I said no introductory
11 comments. I clearly did not allow any introductory comments and one of
12 the introductory comments was --
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour may I say straight away, we're with
14 Your Honour on that. Your Honour very clearly directed Mr. Krajisnik on
15 that; he very clearly heard it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore he was allowed and to that extent there is
17 no change in the approach of the Chamber in any way that, if he abides by
18 the rules, that he could question, put questions to the witness. We gave
19 him that opportunity. He did not abide by the rules. I warned him twice
20 and then the Chamber decided that no further opportunity would be given to
21 Mr. Krajisnik.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour that's a different point. The -- we --
23 your -- Your Honour, we do reserve our position there having been a clear
24 change in the ruling but it doesn't matter for immediate purposes,
25 Your Honour. One once again we reserve our position but we have the
1 Court's directions very clearly as of today and we abide by them, of
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the matter and concludes
5 that the opportunity given to Mr. Krajisnik was not used in the way the
6 Chamber expected him to use, and therefore this opportunity does not exist
7 any further.
8 Mr. Tieger, any questions?
9 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- yes. I just refer to the transcript earlier
11 where there was a clear statement by this Chamber that after most of the
12 time examination has been used Mr. Krajisnik will be given an opportunity
13 to consult with his counsel regarding any remaining questions that to
14 Mr. Krajisnik's mind have not been put to a witness. If the Defence
15 counsel then do not ask such questions the Chamber will positively
16 consider whether to allow Mr. Krajisnik to put some questions to the
17 witness, granted that Mr. Krajisnik demonstrates that he's capable of
18 putting his questions in a procedurally proper manner, which should be
19 understood as including [sic] the introduction to questions.
20 I then said the Chamber already expresses some concern on whether
21 Mr. Krajisnik will fully understand the rules applicable in
22 examination-in-chief whereas until now Mr. Krajisnik has been asking
23 questions only in cross-examination, cross-examining Prosecution
24 witnesses. That, of course, would not be fully applicable, I would say.
25 Therefore, the Chamber may at any time intervene and cut Mr. Krajisnik's
1 examination short if they consider it to be disruptive or in violation of
2 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
3 That was what was said earlier. It's transcript page 17205.
4 That's where we stand at this moment. Mr. Stewart, I'd like to
5 deal with a procedural matter -- one second.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Plavsic, as I promised before, you'll get five
8 minutes, but there's one issue I'd first like to deal with, which is the
9 following: The statement, you have received the statement with what we
10 call track changes the track changes illustrate where the earlier version
11 differed from the new one. We have had two issues. One was to take out
12 in paragraph 9 a line. In the version you have in front of you at this
13 moment, does that line -- is it still in? Do you remember what the line
14 was and what the issue was? It was in paragraph 9. The line reading "And
15 the Supreme Defence Council." Is that still in the statement or has it
16 been taken out already in the version you have now?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, just tell me which
19 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 9.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is the line, the reference at "And the Supreme
22 Defence Council," is that still in there?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's deleted. "The Supreme Defence
24 Council" is no longer in the text. A new sentence instead begins "Without
25 him it would have been --"
1 JUDGE ORIE: So this correction that was made at a later stage is
2 already included in your copy.
3 Then we have -- we had a discussion on paragraph 22 where the
4 English version did read something that was not in the B/C/S. Since you
5 are taking responsibility for the B/C/S, it's for our interpreters to take
6 that out of the translation rather than -- then could I invite you then to
7 initial each of the pages and sign the statement as being a truthful
8 statement? Have you done that already or ...
9 A. I initialed every page, but I can't get over the fact that
10 Trebinje is again called a village.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then that's understood and corrected. It may
12 not be the final determination --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just delete that word.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You may strike that out and initial the village
15 Trebinje. Just strike it through and put your initial at the place where
16 you struck that through.
17 Would you then please be so kind as to give the statement with
18 your initials -- no. Mrs. Plavsic, tell us what other problem you would
19 still have.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's one problem, and that is
21 that I kind of scribbled over it with my pencil underlining things, quite
22 forgetting that that is a paper that I should now submit to you. But I
23 did initial every page. It's just that from the esthetic point of view it
24 may not be ideal, but I believe the substance is what matters.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You are invited to initial every page of this copy,
1 B/C/S version only, and to sign at the cover page. And would you please
2 not add anything else. And you can strike through, again, the word
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Village.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And please initial every page in the B/C/S
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose it's the same as this
8 copy; right?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I -- you're perfectly right in saying so.
10 Then there's another matter, that is the pages of the book. In the
11 initial witness statement the pages of the books -- of the book relevant
12 were mentioned by Mrs. Plavsic. Then later she said that page 207 was not
13 relevant. However, she gave some additional pages in the amended
14 statement. They are mentioned specifically.
15 Mr. Registrar, have these pages of the book and therefore it's
16 without 207 but all of the others, has it been assigned already an exhibit
17 number? Yes. The number C8 was assigned to some of these pages, not
18 including the newest ones. Mr. Registrar, you are instructed to assign
19 the number C8 now for the totality of the pages excluding page 207.
20 I could of course invite the parties at this moment to make
21 submissions as to the admission of this evidence. If it would take them
22 more than half a minute, I would postpone that for a later moment.
23 MR. TIEGER: It won't take any time. We think they're admissible
24 and should come in.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
1 MR. STEWART: Our submissions probably would take quite a bit
2 longer than that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would suggest that we take our time next week
4 to hear any submissions as to the admission of this -- of this evidence
5 before the Chamber makes a determination too much in haste at this very
7 Mr. Plavsic, I promised that you would have the five minutes you
8 asked for. Please be aware that you're still bound by the solemn
9 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony and tell us
10 what you'd like to add to your testimony as given to us until now. And
11 I'm looking at the clock. Ms. Plavsic, you may have noticed that I'm
12 sometimes very strict. So I'm looking at the clock. It should be five
13 minutes. It should not be five minutes, but not more than five minutes.
14 Yes? Please proceed.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that, and amongst other
16 things, of course, it's your job to conduct the procedure.
17 I told you that what I wanted to say has nothing to do with this
18 here or with the Tribunal.
19 I have a problem, and I think -- I don't know if you're interested
20 in knowing where people are serving their sentences, where these people
21 go. I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mrs. Plavsic, I'm going to stop you here. This might
23 be a very relevant issue, but is then an issue for the Tribunal to
24 consider, it's the enforcement of sentences, which is totally outside the
25 scope of this case and I'm sure that Mr. O'Sullivan, if there's anything
1 to be raised, Mr. O'Sullivan, either in public or -- I'm not avoiding any
2 public discussion on the matter, but I find it inappropriate that
3 sentencing issues in other cases are discussed within the framework of a
4 trial against Mr. -- a trial concerning Mr. Krajisnik. So that is a
5 subject I would not allow you to deal with in the five minutes I granted
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You didn't understand me. You
8 didn't understand me. I don't want to talk about others. I want to say
9 that I left here to go to prison and that in three years my environment
10 are prostitutes, those who take drugs --
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- And --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you again. I did not suggest
14 others compared to you but others compared to Mr. Krajisnik. You in that
15 respect are another person. I'm not saying that it's not an issue that
16 you couldn't raise somewhere or couldn't be raised in some other way or to
17 do it some other way, but not within the framework of this trial. And,
18 Mr. O'Sullivan, perhaps you could assist Mrs. Plavsic in finding a proper
19 way of bringing to the attention of the Tribunal what apparently she wants
20 to bring to, not the attention of this Trial Chamber, but of the Tribunal
22 Anything else, Mrs. Plavsic? I'm sorry I have to stop you there.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, nothing. I did say that it had
24 nothing to do with this, and I -- yes. Very well. I understand. Yes,
25 nothing more is necessary. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mrs. Plavsic, this then concludes your
2 evidence in this case. I would like to thank you for coming. Of course
3 we are aware that it's not an easy journey. It's not easy circumstances.
4 You have answered the questions of the Bench and of all the parties. We'd
5 like to thank you for having done that, and although the circumstances
6 might not be ideal for you, nevertheless, today is a bit of a special day
7 for you as well. I hope you a further pleasant day.
8 Then we adjourn. And I have to inform the parties, and that's not
9 known to them yet at this moment, that we will not sit on Monday for -- so
10 we'll start with the next witness on Tuesday morning. The Chamber -- this
11 came on short notice, and therefore we could not have informed the parties
12 about this change in scheduling.
13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, in fact, we were very helpfully informed
15 JUDGE ORIE: I just say, Mr. Josse, that it's -- yes.
16 Then, Ms. Plavsic, I wish you a safe trip home again. Home is
17 perhaps the wrong word but a safe trip back again to Sweden and I take it
18 you'll find an opportunity to briefly speak with Mr. O'Sullivan. I thank
19 the interpreters and --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no need to thank me. I was
21 forced to come here. I didn't come here of my own free will. I said that
22 in the beginning and I would like to finish with that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I nevertheless did thank you and I'm not withdrawing
24 that. Then perhaps not for voluntarily coming but thank you for answering
25 the questions of the parties and the Bench. I'd forgotten on earlier
1 occasions to thank security as well because it is for them beyond the
2 usual time limits.
3 We stand adjourned until next Tuesday. Mr. Registrar in the
5 THE REGISTRAR: 2.15 in the afternoon, Your Honours, in Courtroom
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.07 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day
11 of July, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.