1 Thursday, 13 July 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you
7 please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Mr. Djeric, before we continue your examination, I have to deal
12 with a few small matters. So if you would be patient enough to wait for a
14 First of all, there is a revised translation of P65 tab 157 which
15 is also P64A, tab 730. The registrar is instructed to insert the
16 corrected version into the record in place of the old incorrect version,
17 to the extent the parties have not yet received copy of that revised
18 translation, they are available with the registrar. It concerns the
19 minutes of the 5th session of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina held during an imminent threat of war on the 10th of
21 June 1992.
22 Then I was informed that the Defence has selected two portions of
23 the video in relation to the bridge and has prepared an English
24 transcript of it. May I take it that the Prosecution is informed about
25 which portions they are?
1 MR. JOSSE: Of course. I copied the video -- I beg your pardon,
2 the e-mail to my learned friends. Mr. Harmon has already replied very
3 efficiently, if I might say, and with a corrected translation of the
4 second portion which I will look at briefly during the course of the
5 afternoon but I'm sure I will accept. I'll not sure what his position is
6 so far as the transcript of the exchange on the bridge is concerned.
7 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I had intended to have that looked at
8 but the phones were down and I was unable to connect with my language
9 assistant. I propose that we defer this matter briefly. I will discuss
10 this matter with my language assistant who will review the translation
11 against the actual video and then I will have a response to the Defence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That goes to the details of the transcript and,
13 well, the language of the transcript. Do you expect to raise any
14 fundamental objections against --
15 MR. HARMON: No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore it now has become more or less a matter
17 of technicality rather than any matter of dispute between the parties.
18 MR. HARMON: Correct, yes.
19 MR. JOSSE: That's very helpful to know, thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I was informed that the Defence has been
21 provided with an English version of the Islamic Declaration, and is
22 looking into whether and if so what portions of that document it wishes to
23 tender as evidence.
24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour we are three-quarters of the way through
25 that process. It requires some input by me. I will do that during the
1 course much this afternoon.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I sent one further e-mail to one of the
4 Legal Officers. Simply asking for clarification as to the --
5 Your Honour's comments as far as objections to exhibits is concerned.
6 Your Honour yesterday used the word "filed," that the objections be filed.
7 What we wanted to know was whether Your Honour really meant filed. Quite
8 happy to do that if that is what the Chamber requires.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think we asked for written submissions on it and
10 that communication could be through an e-mail.
11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour used the word filed, for what it's worth,
13 JUDGE ORIE: Most important for us, Mr. Josse, is that if we take
14 decisions on objections against admission into evidence, it should be
15 formally registered somewhere, if we have not dealt with it in court
16 orally and therefore where it does not appear on the transcript of this --
17 of the hearings, then of course we should find a way of registering it in
18 such a way that it becomes part of the records of this trial, which does
19 not necessarily mean that not prior to formal filing, in an informal way,
20 the Chamber and the Prosecution could be informed about the substance of
21 any objections.
22 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. There will be some objections. I will
23 make sure that they are in written form by this time tomorrow.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then when filing actually takes place, I
25 mean, if we are informed about the substance and if the filing later on
1 would take place later on, but of course, would then be exactly in the
2 same wordings as what we worked on earlier, then I don't think that it
3 would be a major problem.
4 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I emphasise realistically the Defence's last
5 opportunity to file for the next three weeks is by tomorrow, 4.00.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And therefore I say that if it's in written
7 form there and if later we have an opportunity to verify what is then
8 finally filed, of course you could file in such a way that you say, hereby
9 we file formally what has been brought in written form already to the
10 attention of the parties and then make the filing in that way, it's mainly
11 our concern that everything finally is on the record, if ever another
12 Chamber, for example the Appeals Chamber, would have to look at it, that
13 it's there.
14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: They don't have to dig through all of our e-mail
16 exchanges in order to find out what actually happened.
17 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. JOSSE: Grateful.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Djeric, thank you for your patience. We
21 will now continue.
22 WITNESS: BRANKO DJERIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, may I ask you, in the beginning of May
1 1992, were you informed by Miroslav Deronjic about an attack on a village
2 called Glogova and a continuing operation to transfer the Muslim
3 population out of the Bratunac municipality?
4 A. No. I say that with full responsibility, and I don't know that
5 man either.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because this Chamber received evidence that
7 when someone, I think it was Mr. Deronjic himself, came to see you, that
8 you very much disagreed with what had happened, and to just summarising,
9 that Deronjic went to see Djeric who became very angry when he heard about
10 the attack on Glogova and the forced transfer of Muslims. Djeric asked
11 who had ordered the attack and Deronjic replied that he himself had done
12 so. Does this in any way refresh your memory on this matter?
13 A. A pure lie, a pure lie. I assure you with full responsibility. I
14 don't know that man at all and he never came to see me. Do you understand
15 that? As for that -- well, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that your recollection does not
17 enable you to confirm what was said in relation to a visit to you in which
18 the matter has been -- that's a more broader --
19 A. There was no visit. It's a pure lie.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, it's for the Chamber finally to find
21 out if there is contradicting evidence what evidence would be to be
22 believed, if any at all. But I observe that you strongly oppose such a
23 description of events at the time.
24 Then let me -- because you'll not be able to --
25 A. I mean I was angry when people came there. I didn't know anything
1 about it. People were there, like, for two days in Pale. I was the only
2 one there. I don't think that there was anybody else from the leadership
3 who was there, and then I happened to hear through my driver that these
4 people were there. I got very angry. Who was doing this? Who is doing
5 this? And so on and so forth.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Who is doing what? I mean, were you informed about
7 such an event even if Mr. Deronjic didn't visit you or --
8 A. Nobody informed me. I didn't know anything about this. Do you
9 understand what I'm saying?
10 JUDGE ORIE: The testimony of course says that -- or at least the
11 evidence tells us that you were not informed about it but that you were
12 told after it had happened.
13 A. When people arrived there, when they had been there for two days
14 already, I heard from my driver that somebody brought these people there
15 from Bratunac. Do you understand that? Then I did my best to resolve the
16 problem of those people there. I assert that nobody talked to me before
17 that about any attack on Glogova, the transfer of people. I don't know
18 anything about that. I mean, somebody told this Deronjic -- I mean on the
19 basis of what can he claim that I was angry? I mean, there was someone
20 who was conveying what my reaction was.
21 JUDGE ORIE: There might be some confusion about the following.
22 My question was focusing on the attack on Glogova and in more general
23 terms on an operation to transfer the Muslim people -- population out of
24 Bratunac municipality, where it seems, if I understood you well, that you
25 are referring to something that might be related, I'm not saying it's not,
1 but about people from Bratunac arriving in Pale, which is not necessarily
2 people from Glogova, but --
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So did I understand you well that you were -- that
5 you got acquainted with the presence of a larger number of people, as you
6 said, who stayed for two days in Pale?
7 A. I learned about the consequences or rather I learned that they
8 were from Bratunac but I didn't know what they were doing there, who
9 brought them there, nothing, as for the attack on Glogova and so on and so
10 forth, as for Deronjic coming to see me, that is a pure lie. It's a pure
11 lie. I state that with full responsibility. I knew nothing about that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So let's, then, for a moment forget about a visit of
13 Deronjic and about an attack on Glogova. What did you learn about a
14 number of people from Bratunac municipality, so therefore not necessarily
15 related to Glogova, arriving in Pale, staying there? From whom did you
16 learn that?
17 A. My driver.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then did you ever see those people in Pale?
19 A. No, I didn't.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know what happened to them? You are talking
21 about, that they stayed two days. Do you know what happened after these
22 two days?
23 A. I don't know. I mean, well, I heard that there were people there,
24 that they were exposed to some unpleasant things and so on, and I took
25 measures immediately to have that problem resolved.
1 JUDGE ORIE: In what way?
2 A. Simply to see what could be done with these people, what kind of
3 solution could be offered to them, a solution for them, allegedly they
4 expressed a wish, that's what I was told, they expressed a wish to go to
5 Sarajevo and I did everything for them to be transferred to Sarajevo some
6 way, because obviously -- well, for them to go back would be pointless.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said you learned that they were exposed to
8 some unpleasant things. Could you specify or could you elaborate on that?
9 A. Believe me, I don't know much about this. Allegedly, they were
10 forcing them there to sing some kind of songs or something like that.
11 Well, certain provocations, and, well, I mean, I didn't like that. I
12 didn't like that. In a way, I was at my wits' end in a way. I thought
13 that this was inhumane, that this problem with these people had to be
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you seek to resolve the matter just on your
16 own or did you discuss it with anyone else? Did you discuss it within any
17 meetings or sessions with others?
18 A. No sessions. I mean, I simply sought solutions on my own,
19 transportation vehicles, well, to have this problem resolved. I was
20 surprised that no one had informed me through some official channels that
21 these people were there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you gain any impression on whether it was or had
23 become general knowledge that these people had arrived in Pale?
24 A. Believe me, I mean, well, possibly, but I did not know. Now,
25 whether the general environment was aware of this, I don't know. I cannot
1 tell you about that. But I certainly -- well, I mean, well, I must have
2 been among the last to find out.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said you acted on this information. You
4 told us that you learned this from your driver. Would you usually take
5 action just on the basis of information of your driver or did you verify
6 in any way whether what your driver had told you was correct?
7 A. Well, I mean, as soon as he told me, I expressed an interest in
8 this, to find out what was going on. You know, I didn't know anything
9 about this. So once it was, well, confirmed that people were indeed
10 there, I took measures to have the problem resolved.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Who confirmed to you that people were indeed there?
12 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I mean, I don't remember. I
13 communicated through these people who were around me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you name them or give us the qualifications of
15 the people around you?
16 A. Well, for the most part, they were people from the police before.
17 Andjic is the name of one of them, then there is another one called
18 Kovacevic, Drazinko Kovacevic. I don't know who else was there. They
19 helped me resolve this problem.
20 JUDGE ORIE: When you addressed these people, were they -- did
21 they give you the impression that they were not aware yet and that they
22 had first to verify or did you, from their reaction, gain the impression
23 that they were already aware of the presence of those people from
25 A. Well, I got the impression that they knew about this. Well, I
1 mean, that that was certain.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you receive any information about the
3 number of people from Bratunac that had arrived in Pale?
4 A. I don't remember. Well, perhaps a couple of hundred. I don't
5 remember the number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do I understand you well that you say this
7 was the approximate, it was more or less the scale or the size of this
8 event, a couple of hundred? I mean, could it have been ten or could it
9 have been 2.000 or what makes you --
10 A. Well, when I say a couple of hundred, I don't know the exact
11 number, you see, do you understand what I'm saying? I'm speaking
12 tentatively that it had to do with the large number of people.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We received evidence that General Subotic
14 testified that General Subotic offered his resignation to the Bosnian Serb
15 Assembly in August 1992, since he disagreed with the way General Mladic
16 conducted military affairs. The problem, as we were told, was that
17 General Mladic acted as commander of the Main Staff and that General
18 Subotic warned the assembly that he could not work under two commanders at
19 the same time, that is under Mladic and Mr. Karadzic. Was the government
20 and the Minister of Defence in the military chain of command at that time?
21 A. The government and the Defence Minister, the government was not,
22 definitely. As for the Defence Minister, I don't think that he was
23 either. The government was connected to the military through the budget,
24 through the -- some civilian issues and so on. As far as I understand
25 it. But I have to tell you that any way, this connection, this link,
1 between Karadzic and Mladic and Subotic and particularly between Subotic
2 and Mladic, wasn't, how shall I put it, there was always some dispute
3 there, and I'm not quite clear what it was all about. Simply, the army
4 did not accept General Subotic, actually at the time he was a colonel.
5 Later he became a general. He didn't have the command. He couldn't
6 have -- he couldn't have had any command responsibility.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Subotic consult you before offering his
9 A. I don't remember. He had no reason to consult me on these
10 matters, because I was out of that very early. The decisions of the
11 National Security Council were given to Karadzic. They were in Karadzic's
12 hands. So we had nothing to do with that. The general did complain about
13 communications with the army because he did have difficulties in
14 performing his duties as Defence Minister, but in that sense, I really
15 couldn't help him much because I didn't have any powers in relation to the
16 army, to the military.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I move to another subject.
18 It is alleged, Mr. Djeric, that you were present at a Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina government meeting on the 3rd of April 1992, at which the
20 entire Bosnia-Herzegovina leadership was in attendance. This meeting
21 allegedly was convened due to the outbreak of violence in several
22 municipalities, including Bijeljina and Banja Luka. Do you recall this
24 A. No, I don't. Maybe you can just remind me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I reminded you about the date. At least I gave
1 you the date, I gave you those who were present.
2 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know on what basis I could have
3 attended those meetings as minister without portfolio in charge of
4 development. I really don't remember. Perhaps this was convened by the
5 Presidency or something, because of that. So this is why I'm asking you
6 just to remind me a little bit because these problem was something that
7 mainly the Presidency members dealt with, Biljana Plavsic and so on and so
8 forth, at the time. The army, the JNA.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the evidence we received says that Presidency
10 members were there, specifically Mr. Izetbegovic, Mr. Kljujic and Mr.
11 Koljevic, Biljana Plavsic, as well as you, Mr. Djeric, and General
12 Kukanjac, and to give some more information about what we learned about
13 this, as I said, it was -- the meeting was convened because of the
14 outbreak of violence in several municipalities, including Bijeljina and
15 Banja Luka, and we received evidence that it was of particular concern in
16 this meeting that in Bijeljina, Arkan's men might have killed civilians.
17 That was what we learned from this evidence, a concern that was discussed
18 during this meeting.
19 A. Probably -- well, I wasn't there by myself in that group but it's
20 possible that we were all called to convene, all the ministers. This is
21 possible, because this was discussed. I know that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you know that it was
23 discussed but your recollection doesn't tell you that you were present
24 during this discussion.
25 A. I say -- I mean it's possible that I was present, but I don't
1 believe that I was just part -- or amongst those members or those names
2 that you mentioned. It's possible that I was there but that there was a
3 wider circle, a larger number of people there, and it's possible that
4 General Kukanjac was there, I mean I think it was a brief meeting. We
5 didn't spend too long discussing matters, but what I'm saying is that
6 there were more of us.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So from your answers I take it that you then
8 were present, if you can tell us how long the meeting took, and if you are
9 able to tell us that the circle of persons present was wider than the
10 persons I just mentioned.
11 A. I say again, I do recall a meeting but I don't know whether that
12 was because of Bijeljina or because of the events in Sarajevo. I cannot
13 remember. It was a long time ago.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We have seen some minutes of the kind shown to you
15 yesterday, which you said they were not authentic, some minutes of
16 Presidency meetings which were attended by military personnel. Could you
17 tell us how often the military leadership and the civilian leadership
18 would meet in 1992?
19 A. At that time, the military leadership contacted Karadzic.
20 Karadzic was the one in command who commended people, decorated people and
21 so on and so forth. The civilian leadership did not have any intensive
22 contacts. The rest of us. Maybe from time to time, if they happened to
23 be there, then they would be invited, because in the style that Karadzic
24 chaired the meetings, anyone could attend the meeting, anybody who
25 happened to be there, he would bring them in, he convened the meetings and
1 so on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You say that occasionally took place?
3 A. Occasionally, yes. In the first half of this period, practically,
4 when I was serving. It was very seldom that this happened. But then, as
5 the government began to stabilise itself more and more, then these visits
6 or arrivals were more frequent.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We also received evidence -- and I quote from that
8 evidence -- that on the 25th of May, so it's a little bit later in time,
9 that you tasked Mr. Stanisic to, and I now literally quote from that
10 evidence, "Gather information and deliver a report to the government on
11 the security of people and property" in the Bosnian Serb republic. For
12 the parties I'm quoting from P763 at paragraph 237.
13 MR. STEWART: I'm grateful, Your Honour. I wonder -- while I'm on
14 my feet, I wonder if Your Honour also has the reference for the piece of
15 evidence cited just now in relation to the 3rd of April meeting.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The 3rd of April, let me just -- I think it's a tape
17 recording of the 64th session of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, 3rd
18 of April, and that's P980.
19 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: This evidence I just quoted from, that you tasked
21 Mr. Stanisic to gather information and deliver a report to the government
22 on the security of people and property, this evidence tells us that you
23 received a report in June 1992 from the MUP, stating that an exhaustive
24 account could not be prepared because the Bosnian Serb republic was in a
25 high state of flux, that personnel were overcommitted and communication
1 with various regions was not always regular. First of all, do you
2 remember to have tasked Mr. Stanisic with gathering information and
3 deliver a report on the security of people and property?
4 A. I don't remember. Does that refer to the government or the
5 National Security Council, that acted in that way? Because I must ask for
6 your understanding, for your indulgence, because the term "government" was
7 often confused, mixed up. Karadzic frequently used the term "government"
8 when he was appearing, when some statements were issued for the
9 international community. It would be as if it were -- was from the
10 government, he would use the term "government"; simply that term was
11 misused a lot.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then do you remember that you tasked Mr. Stanisic or
13 that someone else tasked Mr. Stanisic with gathering information and
14 deliver a report to either the government or any high governmental organ,
15 including the Presidency, a report on the security of people and property?
16 A. I don't remember specifically then but I would charge my people
17 from the government to inform the government, to make a report, so that
18 this could be then reviewed.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember if you charged your people to make a
20 report on the subject I just mentioned? Do you remember what kind of
21 information you received?
22 A. I don't remember, but what I'm saying is that I had problems
23 constantly with the relevant ministry because I kept asking for certain
24 information all the time but I wasn't receiving it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember how many times you asked
1 reports from Mr. Stanisic on matters such as the security of people and
3 A. At the time that I was in office, I kept requesting that from the
4 time in June when the government was formed, from June to October. I
5 asked information on several occasions from that department, information
6 on various issues.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And did you ever receive a written report on it?
8 A. Sometimes I did; sometimes it took a while; sometimes they would
9 be detailed; sometimes they would be quite brief.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us approximately what kind of
11 information was in those reports?
12 A. I really cannot. I cannot remember. It was a long time ago.
13 There were lots of strictly confidential, all these abbreviations were
14 used, so I cannot remember.
15 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean exactly by there were lots of
16 strictly confidentials? Would that mean that you should not share
17 information with these reports with others or what do I have to exactly
18 understand by lots of strictly confidential?
19 A. As I said, the Ministry of Internal Affairs would usually, you
20 know, they thought everything was confidential, more or less, so even if
21 they did make the reports, these reports would be very short. This is
22 what I meant.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do I then correctly understand, if you say that you
24 received reports but that reference was made to the confidentiality of
25 certain information which would then not appear in those reports?
1 A. Sometimes I did receive them, but then I no longer received them.
2 You know, sometimes I received them and if I did, they were brief, they
3 were short reports because they were used to that particular style of
4 work. That's why I'm saying they were short.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Were these reports discussed in government sessions?
6 A. Of course, if it was a written report, it would be discussed just
7 like the report of any other ministry. Every ministry made reports, and
8 this also applied to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, when the report did
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did these reports you received, or the
11 substance of these reports, were they also brought to the knowledge of
12 members of the Presidency?
13 A. I had no need -- the government had no need to inform because the
14 government was linked to the Presidency. The government only dealt with
15 that section of the Ministry of Internal Affairs that had to do with law
16 and order, budget, financials, but not the use of the police. The use of
17 the police was something that the president was in charge of, so the
18 minister directly communicated with the president.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you -- were you ever able to conclude, on
20 the basis of the discussions within the Presidency or perhaps I should say
21 the five, as you called them yesterday, that the others present during
22 those meetings of the five were acquainted with the existence of such
23 reports and the substance of such reports?
24 A. I assume that they could have been informed about it via Karadzic,
25 in that part that relates to the use of police for military purposes and
1 so on. As for these other questions that had to do with regular, daily
2 affairs, salaries, equipment for the police, daily assignments, that kind
3 of thing, that was not interesting. This was something that was conducted
4 in the ministry.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You started your answer by saying, "I assume that
6 they could have been informed about it via Karadzic." So your assumption
7 is about a possibility, and a possible way of -- a possible channel
8 through which they would have been informed. My question was whether you
9 were ever able to conclude on the basis of the discussions you attended
10 that they were informed.
11 A. This problem was constantly discussed, the problem of the
12 communication, of the ministry and the minister with the government, and
13 they were informed in that context. I kept complaining in a way that
14 this was a problem for me, that the minister was responsible to someone
15 else, that I did not receive the necessary information, complete
16 information, that you couldn't work like this, and if the minister
17 belonged to the president, then I wanted this to be known. So they were
18 informed or aware of this in that sense, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever, when you complained about this, receive
20 an answer saying, "We in the Presidency, we do not receive information
22 A. I did not get an answer. Karadzic always stood up for him,
23 defended him. I had a problem. This is what I said yesterday. The
24 government was marginalised. The government simply did not have the
25 proper information and was not able to do anything.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I move to another subject.
2 This is alleged, Mr. Djeric, that you were present at a meeting
3 held on the 2nd of September 1992, with Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Mladic,
4 Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Subotic, General Gvero and others. Do you remember any
5 meeting on the 2nd of September in which the persons mentioned were
6 present, among others?
7 A. I don't remember. I don't remember that particular date.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then try to see -- one of the issues -- one of
9 the issues to which reference was made was strategic goals, and according
10 to the evidence, these strategic goals would roughly correspond to what
11 were called the strategic objectives. Perhaps first of all, are you aware
12 of what was called strategic objectives at that time?
13 A. To tell you the truth, as for the strategic goals, everybody
14 formulated strategic goals and everybody spoke about strategic goals in
15 their own way, so everything there is quite muddled, how a particular
16 person understood that particular thing. I understood that it was simply
17 protecting the political interests of the Serbian people within Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina, since those interests were --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there for a second. Are you aware
20 that, in the Official Gazette, once, a document was published which
21 contained six strategic goals? So I'm not talking about what Mr. A or Mr.
22 B or Mr. C or Mr. D said, but about what was published in the Official
23 Gazette. Are you familiar with that?
24 A. No, no, because there were different channels through which
25 materials were sent to the official gazette for publication. That is to
1 say from different organs.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the source of the information that
3 appeared. You as a Prime Minister, did you not gain knowledge of what was
4 published in the Official Gazette?
5 A. Well, I mean, I don't know what strategic goals. Remind me,
6 please. I mean, I had communication with the gazette in terms of the
7 government sending its decisions through the Secretariat to the gazette.
8 That is to say -- please remind me.
9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik and I had the
10 same thought because -- well, probably because the facts are these:
11 Mr. Djeric was not the Prime Minister at the time of the publication of
12 the Official Gazette. Does Your Honour remember there was a --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I might have made a mistake there. If so, I haven't
14 got in mind the exact date of the publication. But if that is true, I
15 should have left out of my question, as a Prime Minister, but I think the
16 answer of the witness is -- well, let me just say: Did you ever learn
17 from the Official Gazette, whether it was prior to or while you were Prime
18 Minister or at any later date a publication formulating six strategic
20 A. Believe me, I don't remember that. Do you understand what I'm
21 saying? Things were very dynamic. There were these incredible dynamics.
22 I did not manage to follow everything and to see what was being published
23 where and what was being written.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now --
25 A. That is to say that from the Official gazette, no, I did not read
1 that and I was not kept abreast.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said that a lot of people expressed
3 themselves on strategic goals or strategic objectives. Was there any
4 common denominator in what those people or would the one say the strategic
5 goal is to gain access to the mountains and the others would say, no, it
6 is about building bridges or -- could you tell us whether, when people
7 were expressing what strategic goals were, whether you could try to give a
8 common denominator of what those persons comprised in these strategic
9 objectives or strategic goals?
10 A. Well, for the most part, what was understood by that was the
11 protection of the interests or the promotion of the interests of the Serb
12 people within the state interest of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I wish to remind
13 you that the referendum, which was held in Bosnia-Herzegovina, had seen
14 the Serb people outvoted or rather their democratic right to
15 self-determination was done away with. I mean, these strategic objectives
16 were something that people quite simply, well, saw as a quest for seeking
17 appropriate solutions for this imbalance, rather, this lack of balance.
18 That is to say resolving the political status of the Serb people in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Its constitutional position.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If I, for example, would mention access to the
21 sea, would that ring a bell, in terms of whether you ever heard strategic
22 goals to be formulated, including this by far more concrete aspect, far
23 more concrete than the rather general aspects you just mentioned?
24 A. I heard about that too. That was discussed as well. But I did
25 not talk about that, because that was not -- I mean, within my area of
1 interest. I never said a word about that. You can -- you cannot find
2 anything about me having talked about that. I never talked about that.
3 But things like that could be heard, yes, well --
4 JUDGE ORIE: You said this was discussed. Where?
5 A. I mean I heard that -- and people wrote about it. I don't know if
6 you understand what I'm saying. Sort of in different newspapers. Well,
7 there was this sort of discussion. I mean, unofficially and so on.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If I would mention a few others -- would you please
9 let me -- for example, establish state borders separating the Serbian
10 people from the other two ethnic communities, does that ring a bell as
11 part of or a formulation that ever came to you of any strategic goals or
13 A. Well, you see, in that sense, it seems to me that at one
14 particular assembly, at the very outset, I mean, something like that was
15 being said, but I did not say anything about that. Some borders were
16 talked about.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, you come back again and again as to what
18 you said. I didn't ask you that. I was just asking you about your
19 awareness of strategic objectives being formulated, not necessarily by
21 Another one: Set up a corridor between Semberija and Krajina.
22 Does that sound familiar to you in the context of the formulation of
23 strategic goals?
24 A. That was discussed too. And quite often at that. This was being
25 used politically. I remember that. But my understanding of all of these
1 things was, well, quite simply, that this was something for political use,
2 where representatives of the party, especially those who were conducting
3 policy, I assume at the behest of the people, they were going around and
4 talking about some kind of borders. But as far as I can remember, all of
5 this was focused on Bosnia-Herzegovina, within Bosnia-Herzegovina. That
6 is to say in the sense of some sort of reorganisation of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina that would be in accordance with the will of all three
8 peoples. It was my understanding that this was a certain continuity of
9 the pre-war talks on regionalisation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll not go with you through some of the
12 Could you remind me exactly when were you appointed Prime
13 Minister? Was that -- I think you said yesterday it was -- when?
14 A. Well, I talked about that, sometime mid-March, possibly it was the
15 24th of March. I mean, yesterday I -- well, that's the date that I
16 remembered. It was the date of an assembly meeting held in Pale.
17 Possibly then. Then I, well, then I was appointed Prime
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I started these series of questions with a
20 meeting on the 2nd of September 1992, with Mr. Karadzic, Mladic,
21 Krajisnik, Subotic, Mr. Gvero and others. I said that strategic goals
22 were referred to during that meeting. We now went through strategic goals
23 that were formulated and that were discussed. Does this refresh your
24 memory as far as the 2nd of September 1992 meeting is concerned?
25 A. Believe me, no. I don't even know where it was held. I mean,
1 quite simply, I cannot locate this in terms of time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has one or more questions for you.
5 Mr. Stewart I'm a bit puzzled by the publication in a time when Mr. Djeric
6 was not Prime Minister. According to my information the adoption of and
7 the publication of the strategic objectives was the 12th of May, 1992.
8 MR. STEWART: The publication in the official gazette was -- that
9 was an assembly session on the 12th of May in Banja Luka.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. They were adopted according to the publication
11 on the 26th of November 1992. The 12th of May, yes, I made a mistake; I
13 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour. While I'm on my feet I'll
14 just say with the witness present, Your Honour, the exhibit P980 that
15 Your Honour referred to, as the evidence reference in relation to meeting
16 of the 3rd of April. We are inquiring whether there is any further
17 evidence reference beyond simply the exhibit itself. I'll put it in those
18 very bare terms right at this moment, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: From what I remember, that is the -- let me just look
20 at my notes. I think we have some transcript pages. I have not verified
21 them at this moment but --
22 MR. STEWART: This very moment doesn't matter. Might I inquire,
23 Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's somewhere 18188, 18189 but to be quite honest I
25 haven't got this available immediately for myself.
1 MR. STEWART: I'll track down those pages, Your Honour, may I but
2 if Your Honour has any more specific information that would be helpful.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If I have any I'll check during the next break.
4 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour, thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has one or more questions.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, yesterday you said
7 [In English] I was bothered somewhat by Krajisnik's indiscriminate and
8 uncritical relationship to Karadzic. I think they were friends but I
9 still think that his attitude should have been different."
10 [Interpretation] Sir, could you please develop on this? Why did you
11 assess the situation as such?
12 A. Well, quite simply, I proceeded from the fact that Krajisnik was
13 president of the parliament, that he had some strength, and that he was a
14 manage who belonged to the party and to its highest organ. Quite simply,
15 I mean he had to have a stronger influence over Karadzic. I mean for
16 things to be resolved. I mean, to have the government affirmed, to have a
17 state based on the rule of law affirmed. Do you understand what I'm
18 saying? All the time this remained sort of within the bounds of a party
19 state and within the bounds of the party. So it's from that point of
20 view. I mean, it is my assessment or my impression that he could have
21 been a bit more critical. I mean, more active towards him. That's what I
23 In view of his party position, in view of his position as speaker
24 of parliament and, in particular, as his friend from earlier on.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Well, in your answer, you seem to
1 say that some of the actions conducted by Mr. Karadzic could have been
2 countered by Mr. Krajisnik. Is that what you mean?
3 A. Well, I mean, I don't mean in that sense only but, well, that can
4 be talked about too, but primarily in the sense of making Karadzic see
5 reason. I mean, how should I put this? A person should bring him to a
6 situation where he should think a bit differently, not as a psychiatrist
7 or as the leader of a party or a political leader and so on and so forth,
8 but that he should think on the basis of some facts and by way of having
9 the legal state of affairs function.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, could you please talk
11 in pragmatic terms, in practical terms? Just give me one example of a
12 situation, of a decision that was made, made by Mr. Karadzic where
13 Mr. Krajisnik could have given him another advice, could have influenced
14 him to change his mind? What exactly are you thinking about? So please,
15 I beg you, be practical.
16 A. For example, as far as the position of the government is
17 concerned. One can say, we have to have a government, we have to affirm
18 the government, the government has to, I mean, well, keep things under
19 control, break down these feudal masters down there and so on and so
20 forth. I mean, to have the rule of law applied. So he could have
21 influenced him from that point of view.
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Please, let's talk about those
23 feudal masters. And let's be realistic. Talk in a -- tell me exactly who
24 you're thinking about when you're talking about those feudal masters.
25 A. Those were the heads or rather chiefs of various Crisis Staffs of
1 various entities of various municipalities individually, and so on and so
2 forth. We had a situation in which what was evident was the primacy of
3 the local level, down there, in relation to what was up there on the top,
4 you see. I mean, they had this party line primarily, and they set store
5 by that, and quite simply, they would side line the government and they
6 would go directly to the Presidency. I told you about that yesterday.
7 They went directly to the president.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, let's talk about
9 something else. You told us that neither Mr. Stanisic nor Mr. Mladic
10 bore much attention to government meetings. They didn't really care
11 about government meetings. Sorry, it was Mandic and Stanisic
12 [interpreter's correction].
13 A. I haven't herd heard your question.
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise.
15 MR. JOSSE: The translation didn't come through, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] [No interpretation] I thought I
17 understood that neither Mr. Stanisic nor Mr. Mandic.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the interpretation into English?
19 There is no interpretation into English?
20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, interpretation can be heard now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have no problem but Mr. Djeric had a
22 problem in --
23 A. Now, I hear it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Perhaps Judge Hanoteau would, you be so kind?
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Can you hear me now, Mr. Djeric?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. JOSSE: One of the microphones is off. It doesn't matter. I
3 beg your pardon.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I thought I understood that you
5 were telling us that neither Mr. Stanisic nor Mr. Mandic paid much
6 attention to government meetings. I thought I understood that most of the
7 time they weren't even there. Do you confirm that?
8 A. I said that yesterday and I confirm that. I mean, well --
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My question is the following:
10 Were there any occasions where you were actually able to blame them for
11 this, to directly tell them, "You're not behaving like ministers should
12 behave"? Did you ever discuss that with either one or the other or both?
13 A. Yes, individually and together, more or less the entire government
14 had a position on that, that the two of them were those who were not
15 working for the purposes of the government. More or less they were with
16 Karadzic all the time. I asked for them to be replaced and that could not
17 come through.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What did they answer you when
19 you blamed them for this? What did they tell you?
20 A. Who do you mean when you say "they"?
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Either Mr. Mandic or
22 Mr. Stanisic. They explained themselves, they gave you an explanation for
23 their behaviour, right?
24 A. They behaved as if I couldn't touch them, that they had --
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'm asking you to tell me what
1 they answered to you, what was their answer when you blamed them?
2 A. Well, I mean, they just waved their hand and go away. There was
3 this misunderstanding all the time and so on and so forth. Once,
4 Karadzic -- once, Stanisic said that he would cool me off.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, I'd like to ask you
6 some questions about the Ministry of information, the Minister of
7 Information, sorry. What exactly, what role did he play exactly?
8 A. He was a party man, a party man. For the most part, he kept
9 hanging around the party. I mean, he was in the party. And he only
10 recognised, well, the top echelons of the party. He was in the main board
11 there, I guess, and here in the government he held the position of
12 Minister of Information. Well, quite simply, he was a party man, to put
13 it briefly, an activist.
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Was he in charge of circulating
15 party politics? Did he use the media to that end?
16 A. I mean, he, well, somehow I find this inseparable. I mean he's a
17 party man, there was a party state. There was no opposition there. One
18 can assume that, well, that he did not leave aside party interests.
19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Please answer my question. As
20 Minister of Information, did he -- did he -- did he use the media? Did he
21 use the media to just circulate the party line, his own party line?
22 A. I mean, I cannot tell you about that competently because I'm not a
23 member of the party. I cannot go into that. I cannot say. I'm just
24 telling you that he was on television all the time, on the radio, I mean
25 with journalists, all the time, sort of, well, probably he was promoting
1 himself first and foremost and then everything else.
2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] One last question. Do you
3 remember that at one point in time the federal MUP sent an emissary to
4 take over the paramilitaries and to control them?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Does Davidovic ring a bell?
7 A. The federal -- you mean from Yugoslavia? Yes. I -- it does ring
8 a bell. That's up there in Bijeljina.
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What exactly does this remind you
10 of? Who asked for him to come over to the territory?
11 A. I don't know. I did not. This could only be done by the minister
12 for internal affairs or someone but I did not. I did meet him in
13 Bijeljina, though, that's where I got to know him.
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But it rings a bell about
15 Bijeljina but what does it remind you of?
16 A. I think that he was some unit which was up there to secure some
17 kind of order. I don't know.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no further questions for you,
20 Mr. Djeric, at this time.
21 We'll have a break. I already asked the usher to escort you out
22 of the courtroom.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: I yesterday invited the parties to give it some
25 thought as to how much time they thought they would need for further
1 questions to Mr. Djeric. Mr. Tieger?
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Mr. Stewart and I did have a
3 brief opportunity to discuss that at the time, both of us indicated to
4 each other we thought that the time, full time made available by the
5 Chamber would not be necessary. I wish I could estimate with more
6 precision but I certainly expect for example to conclude my questions by
7 the end of the day and hopefully considerably earlier but that's about the
8 best I can do.
9 JUDGE ORIE: By the end of the day, that would mean -- let me just
10 see, it's now ten minutes to 4.00, up to 7.00 is a little bit over three
11 hours. We need two breaks, one of 25 and one of 20 minutes. That would
12 be a little bit over two hours.
13 Mr. Stewart?
14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it's very difficult for me to say
15 anything specific. I'm not going to need all day tomorrow or anything
16 like that, Your Honour but what would be particularly helpful, Your
17 Honour, would be if it were possible to have a slightly longer break
18 because we would really like to go and see Mr. Krajisnik to see where we
19 are on this. Your Honour knows that that's often something we do and it's
20 often valuable.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Tieger, would you still be able to finish
22 today if we would grant a little bit extra time for the breaks? Well,
23 let's say to have a break of a little bit over half an hour now and
24 perhaps if need be the next break to be 20, 25 minutes?
25 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, you're flattering with a degree of
1 precision that I'm afraid I can't claim. But I don't particularly see the
2 problem, in light of the fact that I do think that given my discussions
3 with Mr. Stewart that.
4 MR. STEWART: What might be a helpful suggestion, Your Honour f
5 Mr. Tieger was going to go pretty near the end of the day we could have
6 the discussion with Mr. Krajisnik at the prison tomorrow morning which
7 would actually be more valuable in a way to us. If it looks as if
8 Mr. Tieger is going pretty near to the end then we could do it that way.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to do the following, Mr. Stewart. If
10 we have a break now of well, let's say half an hour until 25 minutes past
11 4.00, try to use your time and see what you can do in this break, and if
12 need be, there might be another opportunity at a later moment to complete
13 your consultations with Mr. Krajisnik.
14 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour, I just had in mind that
15 Mr. Tieger was on time for today. That was part of the answer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes but what his answer he'll be able to.
17 MR. STEWART: All right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I was informed perhaps it would be a totally
19 justified response to my trespassing time limits several times at 7.00 --
20 that today we really have to stop at 7.00. We adjourn until 25 minutes
21 past 4.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.55 p.m.
23 --- Upon resuming at 4.30 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, you'll now be examined by Mr. Tieger,
25 counsel for the Prosecution. Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
3 Q. Mr. Djeric, good afternoon.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Yesterday, the Court asked you a few questions concerning, among
6 other things in that period of its questioning, an order of 26 April 1992,
7 concerning Crisis Staffs. And that could be found at page 55, 54 and 55,
8 of yesterday's transcript. You looked at the document of that date, which
9 listed actions to be taken concerning the Crisis Staffs, and you said you
10 never came across this document, at page 55, and that it was a pure
11 forgery. I'd like -- now the Court exhibit that was shown to you at that
12 time was found at tab 6 of the Court's documents.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assure that Mr. Djeric has tab 6 in
14 front of him?
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. The document entitled excerpt from the instructions for the
17 operation of Crisis Staffs of the Serbian people in municipalities.
18 A. I didn't say that as far as I can recall I didn't say it like
19 that. I just said that I didn't recall this document because if we are
20 talking about April, you know, this -- we are talking about April --
21 Q. Mr. Djeric I'm not asking to you explain --
22 A. Government --
23 Q. Go ahead, you can finish that, and then we'll proceed.
24 A. As I said, I don't remember this document.
25 Q. Well, the transcript of yesterday's session will speak for itself?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we read immediately to -- Mr. Djeric I read
2 from the transcript of yesterday, where you started saying that in this
3 point in time there was no government, there was just a Prime
4 Minister-designate, then secondly you said who signed there? Who signed
5 this document? I don't find this clear, I mean this document, I mean,
6 this is a forgery too. And a few lines later, you explained, you said
7 well, I asked you what made you conclude that it was a forgery and you
8 said, because, well, quite simply because it refers to me and I see that I
9 never came across this document, especially because certain prerogatives
10 are given here and I never dealt with this, you see, so it is a pure
11 forgery, a set of instructions was sent to Crisis Staffs signed by
12 Karadzic and me but meaning that they should be careful as to how they
14 So two times you said it's a forgery and I think I'm referring to
15 the -- this document, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So two times you said it, not once, twice.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't think that it's this
19 document that we are talking about but maybe some other documents that we
20 looked at. As for this document, I said that I do not recall because at
21 that point in time, the government did not exist. It could have -- yes?
22 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to read what is on the transcript of
23 yesterday's hearing. You also said that you do not recall that you came
24 across this document but you twice said that it was a forgery, and if you
25 think that there is an error in translation, please tell us, we'll check
1 it on the basis of the original words spoken by you and see whether it's
2 properly translated. I just wanted to put this to you and leave it to
3 Mr. Tieger to ask any further questions.
4 MR. TIEGER: All right.
5 Q. Now, at this point, Mr. Djeric --
6 A. Please.
7 Q. Mr. Djeric, let's proceed, please. At this point I'd like you to
8 look at two documents. They are two copies of the excerpt from the
9 instructions to the operation of Crisis Staffs. And Mr. Djeric I'll tell
10 you that these two documents, and I'm more than happy if requested by the
11 Court or the Defence to provide affidavits in connection with this, that
12 these documents were obtained directly from the Republika Srpska
13 government archives.
14 And I'd like you, in particular, Mr. Djeric, to look to the stamp
15 and signatures that appear on that document and confirm, if you will,
16 please, that those are your signatures.
17 A. This is not my signature. This is not my signature. I simply
18 see that this does have -- is under the heading of the government but the
19 government didn't exist at the time. I was appointed Prime Minister on
20 the 24th of April and if I understood the date correctly yesterday, the
21 date here is the 26th of April.
22 Q. We are going to look at the date you were appointed Prime
23 Minister, Mr. Djeric, but isn't it the case, in fact, that you were
24 nominated and accepted the position of Prime Minister at the 12th session
25 of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on March 24th, 1992?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Well, I distinctly got the impression here that you were trying to
3 suggest that you had only been appointed so recently that this document
4 couldn't have anything to do with you. In fact, you had been appointed a
5 month earlier. Correct?
6 A. Yes. On the 24th of April, and this is the 26th of April. I'm
7 talking about the government. The government was not formed most probably
8 before the end of May because this is a government document.
9 Q. You're not suggesting, are you, that this document was provided to
10 the Office of the Prosecutor by the archivist for Republika Srpska because
11 it was found some place other than the Republika Srpska government
12 archives, are you? In other words you're not disputing that these
13 documents were recovered from the RS government archives, are you?
14 A. I'm not disputing it. It's just that I don't remember this
16 Q. Who do you say signed this document?
17 A. The signature is not mine. I mean, I simply -- I do not recall
18 sending this myself. I think that yesterday I said that there was an
19 instruction that President Karadzic drafted but that was already the
20 National Security Council, and that's where I put my signature, there.
21 That's what I do remember. But as to the government and me doing that
22 alone, I don't recall that. So we really need to see exactly what we are
23 talking about here.
24 Q. This Court has received evidence, Mr. Djeric, that this document
25 was received and acted upon in various municipalities, for example, I'll
1 just give a couple of examples, Hanson tab 100, we find the 1 May 1992
2 decision on the organisation and work of the Crisis Staff of Prijedor
3 municipality, which repeats almost verbatim the instructions contained in
4 this document. Similarly, we see from the book of minutes at tab 79 of
5 the Hanson documents, from the Kljuc municipality, that one of the members
6 of the Crisis Staff acquainted the other Crisis Staff members with the
7 Crisis Staff operating instructions. And I won't go on except to mention
8 that a witness who appeared for the Defence, Mr. Pasic, confirmed that in
9 Bosanski Novi, these instructions were received and acted upon, indeed he
10 said at page 19729, "I have already mentioned in my testimony that the
11 Crisis Staff had no choice and could not have undertaken anything else."
12 Are you disputing, Mr. Djeric, that the Bosnian Serb authorities, and
13 let's just leave your involvement in this aside for the moment, issued
14 instructions to the Crisis Staffs for their operation in late April 1992?
15 A. I'm not disputing that. If you understand me correctly, I'm
16 talking about an instruction that was signed by President Karadzic and I
17 signed it -- I could signed it, and the idea was to draw attention of the
18 Crisis Staffs or rather the local authorities to the obligation for lawful
19 conduct. We had no other way or other solution other than to draw their
20 attention to their conduct, to their work, in respect of adhering to laws,
21 laws of Republika Srpska, international regulations and so on. This was
22 supposed to serve as a caution or a warning, a document that was meant to
23 deter all those factors from illegal conduct.
24 Q. Mr. Djeric, excuse me a second?
25 A. As to whether that is that document or not --
1 Q. That's just what I was going to ask you. We've heard a great deal
2 and I'm sure we'll hear some more about your commitment to the rule of law
3 and preventive actions. I understand that's what you're trying to tell us
4 again. Is this document, before you now, the same document that you say
5 was issued by you and Dr. Karadzic in connection with the Crisis Staffs or
6 is this a different document?
7 A. I cannot really state something like that. I really don't
8 remember. I know that the document that I'm talking about indicated the
9 need for respecting laws, regulations for creating living conditions and
10 so on. In that sense, respect of law, caring for the population, the
11 people, a humane approach to everyone. That's what I remember. But
12 again, I repeat, this is a document that was signed by President Karadzic
13 and me, and at that point as the political leadership.
14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, those two documents will need numbers.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?
16 THE REGISTRAR: The first document, Your Honours with ERN number
17 01246834 and 835 would be given P1286. And the other document with the
18 ERN number 01245649 and 50 would be P1287.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Mr. Djeric, you were also asked by the Court to look at the
21 minutes of the government session held on 24 May 1992. That occurred at
22 pages 61 through 62 of yesterday's transcript. And once again, you said,
23 at page 62, this is a forgery too. That's tab 7. Now, Mr. Djeric, this
24 is a document that was obtained by the Office of the Prosecutor in two
25 different ways. First, directly from the government archives themselves.
1 A. Which document are you thinking of?
2 Q. Tab 7, the minutes of the government session of May 24.
3 Mr. Djeric, I started to indicate to you, this is a document that was
4 obtained by the Office of the Prosecutor in two different ways: First,
5 directly from the government archives of Republika Srpska; and second, in
6 response to an official request for assistance to Republika Srpska for,
7 among other things, the government, the minutes of government sessions in
8 May, and this document was sent by the Republika Srpska authorities. Is
9 it your contention, sir, that the archives of Republika Srpska are
10 maintaining forged minutes of the government and that the government of
11 Republika Srpska has been sending forged minutes of certain sessions to
12 the Office of the Prosecutor?
13 A. I'm not saying that. I'm not asserting that. But about this --
14 these minutes, this question under A3, that it was a greed that the
15 president of the assembly --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please read more slowly?
17 A. The presidents of the Presidency, Momcilo Krajisnik is organising
18 meetings, I'm saying that it's not possible that the government entrusted
19 Mr. Krajisnik to organise these meetings, so what I'm saying is that these
20 minutes are in a way questionable.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. What is so astonishing to you about the possibility that there was
23 a discussion with Mr. Krajisnik or a member of his office resulting in
24 some understanding that that action would be undertaken which was
25 subsequently relayed to the government at this session?
1 A. Here, it is implied that Mr. Krajisnik was present at the meeting
2 and that it was agreed, as it is stated there.
3 Q. Let's move on, Mr. Djeric, to another allegedly forged document.
4 At pages 41 through --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before doing so, Mr. Djeric, you -- one
6 second, please. One second, please. Yes. You now say, "so what I'm
7 saying is that these minutes are in a way questionable."
8 Yesterday, you said, "These minutes simply are a forgery." There
9 is quite some difference between the two lines. I'd like to draw your
10 attention to the fact that all of the evidence you gave yesterday, unless
11 there is a translation error, and even translation errors can be simply
12 verified, that the Chamber finds it very important that if you draw
13 conclusions that it should be clear that these are conclusions. You said
14 yesterday, not only these minutes simply are a forgery, you said they are
15 not authentic. I would just draw your attention to, now for the second
16 time, you're taking back more or less what you testified after having
17 given a solemn declaration yesterday.
18 Mr. Tieger you may proceed.
19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. I wanted to look next, Mr. Djeric, at another document.
21 A. Please, can I just -- I mean, I was just speaking freely. It was
22 my interpretation. And now I see that you're now approaching it in a
23 legal manner and I apologise. If you understand me, I was just saying,
24 well, all right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We want you to tell us exactly the truth and use your
1 expressions in such a way that you fully can guarantee that what you say
2 is right. Mr. Tieger now has put to you two occasions that where you
3 said yesterday it was a forgery, that you take at least quite a bit of it
4 back at this moment. And it's a reminder for the testimony still, don't
5 speak -- well, of course, speak freely; but speak precisely as well. With
6 your education and background, we could expect you that even if you're not
7 a lawyer that you can make a distinction between doubt you have in a
8 document and to say it's a forgery, it's not authentic. I just wanted to
9 remind you of that.
10 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation] JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric,
11 Mr. Djeric, please listen to the next question and give an answer.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. At pages 41 through 44 of the transcript yesterday you were asked
14 about and discussed the document found at tab 3, the minutes of the
15 session of the Presidency of Republika Srpska of 9 October 1992 and once
16 again, Mr. Djeric, you said those are a forgery. Now, were you just
17 speaking freely and indicating that there were some aspects of the
18 document about which you had some question or do you still maintain those
19 were a forgery for the reasons you described yesterday?
20 A. Could you just please help me?
21 Q. Tab -- tab 3.
22 A. Yes. I was talking about this document because I do not recall
23 Mr. Krajisnik ever chairing over a meeting or session. I was explicit
24 there. Not only from that aspect but also from the aspect of the type of
25 topic that we have here. For example, Slavonski Brod is mentioned. I
1 don't remember that at all as being talked about. Further, I am seeing
2 here Krajisnik, Koljevic, Branko Djeric. Koljevic died and there is only
3 the two of us now. So I simply am saying what I said already about this
5 Q. All right. That there are aspects of it that --
6 A. I do not remember -- all right. Very well.
7 Q. On the basis of your recollection, you conclude it's a forgery and
8 want the court to rely on that. Now, Mr. Djeric, one of indeed the point
9 that you emphasised most strongly to the Court yesterday in arriving at
10 your conclusion that this document was a forgery was the one you mentioned
11 twice, you mentioned it, the first, at the beginning, page 41, and then
12 again at page 44, which was that these are a forgery because 9 October is
13 the day you resigned in Prijedor at the assembly session and of course
14 this document doesn't say that this Presidency session took place in
15 Prijedor. You remember saying that, correct?
16 A. I -- yes -- said that but the meeting in Prijedor, as far as I can
17 remember, was when I resigned, and this has that date, the 9th of October.
18 Q. The meeting in Prijedor, Mr. Djeric, took place on the 30th, 31st
19 of October, not on the 9th. Isn't that right? That's a matter of record.
20 A. What I can remember is that it was the 9th. I have no reason
21 about the dates. It's possible.
22 Q. Couple of other aspects --
23 A. I mean this can be checked.
24 Q. Yeah. It can be checked and we'll check it in a moment, in fact.
25 Let's look at a couple of other things you said. You also said at page
1 42, I believe, looking at the reference in the document to the
2 Boban-Izetbegovic agreement that you didn't remember that. Don't recall
3 negotiations between Boban and Izetbegovic, right? That's another basis
4 for asserting to the Court that this document is a forgery.
5 A. I mean I had nothing to do with the agreement. I did not take
6 part in that. I mine. I had nothing no do with it.
7 Q. There was such an agreement. You just didn't take part in it?
8 A. I don't know that. I do not know that.
9 Q. Okay. Except that you wanted to assert the non-existence of that
10 agreement as the basis for your conclusion that this was a forgery or your
11 assertion that this was a forgery?
12 A. No, no, no. No, I mean, I don't know about that. I don't know
13 about that. I mean, I did not participate in that. And this was not
14 discussed at the Presidency. I mean, I don't remember that.
15 Q. Let's take a look at a couple of documents, that's extra 31 and
17 MR. TIEGER: Those will need numbers, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?
19 THE REGISTRAR: They would be P1288 and P1289, Your Honours.
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. The first document, which I believe is 1288 all throw I couldn't
22 see which one was marked which way?
23 THE REGISTRAR: I gave the numbers before we got the documents.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now we have to find out which one is which.
25 Shall we say that the 6th of October document has the number P1288, that
1 is -- seems to be a letter with attachment from Mr. Trbojevic to a certain
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. P1288, Mr. Djeric, a document dated 6 October, 1992, sent by Milan
5 Trbojevic, the Deputy Prime Minister, your deputy, to Dr. Karadzic,
6 Radovan, "sending the draft agreement we proposed," and as you can see,
7 looking at the agreement on the subsequent page, it's an agreement between
8 Republika Srpska, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and more
9 specifically involving Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Boban. And as we can see for
10 Republika Srpska, your name appears as well. "Republika Srpska
11 represented by Dr. Branko Djeric."
12 How is it, Mr. Djeric, that an agreement in which you
13 participated, which is reflected in the minutes of another session,
14 approximately the same time, indicate in any way that that document is a
16 A. Oh, please, I won't saying that it was a forgery. I just said
17 that I did not know of that agreement. Boban-Izetbegovic. I don't know
18 about that. Have a look at this here. You see that it has to do with
19 some document that does not bear my signature. Further on, there is a
20 reference here to a cease-fire. It is true that there were talks between
21 the representatives of Herceg-Bosna and Republika Srpska, so that is
22 correct. I took part in that delegation but I was not the head of that
23 delegation. The head of that delegation was Nikola Koljevic, who was not
24 mentioned here at all.
25 Q. And how is that relevant, Mr. Djeric? Mr. Djeric, the simple fact
1 is this: You were shown a document, you said it was a forgery, you were
2 asked why, you said in part because it refers to this agreement, meaning
3 that such a reference must be so untrue as to indicate that the document
4 is a forgery. And now we come to find out that you participated in this
6 A. Oh, please, I mean, I think we don't understand each other. I
7 said in relation to the Boban-Izetbegovic agreement, Boban-Izetbegovic, I
8 mean this is the Croat and the Muslim side, Boban and Izetbegovic, whereas
9 this has to do with the agreement between Republika Srpska and, I mean,
10 the HDZ.
11 Q. Take a look at the next document, Mr. Djeric?
12 A. And --
13 Q. Take a look at the next document, Mr. Djeric.
14 A. You see, you see, that it's being done through the Deputy Prime
15 Minister and not me. I was not even head of the delegation there. I
16 mean, you know, if you ask me, well, I'm sorry, but if you ask me whether
17 I know anything about the agreement between Republika Srpska and
18 Herceg-Bosna I would have said yes to you. But Izetbegovic and Boban, no,
19 I don't know anything about that.
20 Q. That was a great mystery, that agreement between or proposal for
21 an agreement between Izetbegovic and Boban, huh? Was it?
22 A. I don't know about that.
23 Q. You were participating in the discussions between Republika Srpska
24 and Herceg-Bosna. Take a look at 1289. The next document. That is the
25 October 10th, 1992 article entitled Muslim Croat cooperation in brief.
1 Which begins, Zagreb, 8th October the president of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
2 Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, and the president of the Croatian Community
3 of Herceg-Bosna, Mate Boban agreed to form a joint command of the Croat
4 and Muslim units in Bosnia-Herzegovina in Split on Tuesday, 6 October.
5 That was a fairly newsworthy event at the time, wasn't it, Mr. Djeric, to
6 many people, and particularly to the leadership of Republika Srpska?
7 A. I tell you I don't know anything about that. I don't know
8 anything about that. I was on the periphery, as far as these developments
9 were concerned.
10 Q. I'm not asking for the details of that, Mr. Djeric, I'm simply
11 exploring your assertion before this Court on repeated occasions that
12 documents were forgeries. That reference to you pointed to and relied
13 upon in the October 9th Presidency minutes to assert that it was a forgery
14 is no basis at all, correct?
15 A. I mean, I did not remember. Those were my grounds. That's the
16 basis. I did not remember any discussion of an agreement between Boban
17 and Izetbegovic.
18 Q. Nor do you remember --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, Mr. Tieger is putting to you that, if you
20 do not remember something, and if an event, the same event you do not
21 remember, is reflected in a document, that you should not easily conclude
22 that you are -- that it must be a forgery because you don't remember what
23 is contained in that document. That's what Mr. Tieger is putting to you.
24 I don't think that he's exploring further details about this
25 agreement at the moment; Mr. Tieger?
1 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Let's quickly take a look at a couple of other aspects of --
5 A. I mean --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, you may listen to the next question of
7 Mr. Tieger and answer it.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Now, the Presidency minutes of 9 object in front of you at this
10 point, Mr. Djeric, also indicate that regarding the military -- that's on
11 page -- only a two-page document, page 2 of the English, under the second
12 conclusion, the second paragraph, regarding the military operation in
13 Sarajevo the following was concluded, to halt artillery bombardment and
14 achieve this through the main command of the Serbian army because UNPROFOR
15 is exerting control, 2, a way should be found to implement this conclusion
16 the possibility of demilitarising the town of Sarajevo has been considered
17 from the military and every other aspect, the good and bad sides of this
18 attempt, et cetera. As well, look at the reason why this should not
19 spread to the entire territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina. And in
20 that connection, I'd like you to look at the government minutes of October
21 12th a few days later. That's extra 23. It seems to need a number,
22 Your Honour although it may be that it simply didn't?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?
24 MR. TIEGER: At the same time if we could distribute also the next
25 one is number 24, minutes of government session and we'll have those
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Minutes of the 55th government session
4 Your Honours will be P1290.
5 MR. TIEGER: And the 56 will need a number as well.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1291, Your Honours.
7 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, we'll --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.
9 MR. TIEGER: The minutes of the 55th government session are
10 already in evidence --
11 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour we are getting rather confused by
12 numbers. We've got extra numbers we got the exhibit numbers which we can
14 JUDGE ORIE: Most important is that we all have the same document
15 in front of us and Mr. Tieger is now going to explain to us what number it
16 has already.
17 MR. TIEGER: The 55th session is P64A, P65, tab 70, P583, tab 45.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I'm -- I do not find any P64A tab number,
19 Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Tab 670, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 670.
22 MR. STEWART: The one that's confusing us is the reference to
23 extra 23.
24 MR. TIEGER: That's -- is merely my indication to our case manager
25 and I apologise for that. I will -- I can appreciate that you are taking
1 it another way.
2 MR. STEWART: That's understood, Your Honour, then. Thank you.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. All right. Mr. Djeric, looking at the minutes of the 55th session
5 I have just asked to you look at that portion of the Presidency minutes of
6 9 October referring to the possibility of demilitarising the town of
7 Sarajevo and, in that connection, we see, in the minutes of the 55th
8 government session, that the government was briefed on the asked terms
9 regarding the demilitarisation of Sarajevo.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you guide as far as the page is concerned,
11 Mr. -- I think we found something on page 3 under RAI [phoen] 1. No, no.
12 I'm sorry, I have to rely upon you, Mr. --
13 MR. TIEGER: I apologise, Your Honour. Just one moment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, what about page 7, the second item from
15 the top?
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour that is exactly right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what you wanted to draw the attention of the
18 witness to?
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Mr. Djeric, if you look toward the latter part of the document
21 you'll see a reference to Biljana Plavsic and UNPROFOR talks, also PTT
22 services. That should help orient you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, if you would look at the last three
24 digits 567, at the top of the page, where the page starts with item 40, a
25 few lines further down, it seems that it starts with the word Vlada, and
1 at the end of that line you'll find the word demilitarisation and
2 Sarajevo. Have you found that? It's the semi-last page. Semi-last page
3 in B/C/S. Yes. It starts with RAI 40, questions and proposals, and then
4 please look at the second item there. You found it? Could the page be
5 put on the ELMO so that we can see -- yes, you found it? Could the
6 document be put on the ELMO?
7 A. Could you read the text to me.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. The government was briefed on the asked terms regarding the
10 demilitarisation of Sarajevo.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the right document in front of you?
14 Mr. Usher could you please put it on the ELMO so that we can is have a
15 look at it. Mr. Djeric could you follow it on the screen? No, we have to
16 be further down. It is the semi-last page but it seems -- no. Could I
17 have a look at that document?
18 MR. TIEGER: Appears to me, Your Honour, as the Court is pointing
19 out, the second paragraph under --
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's the 56th session. It's the 55th session we have
21 to look at. Mr. Usher please the 55th session. Semi-last page, B/C/S.
22 Top of the page, top of the page, please, Mr. Usher. Yes.
23 Mr. Djeric, you found it, second item under number 40, after the
24 introduction. Have you found it? Could you please -- could you please --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see it now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So that it's clear on the screen of Mr. Djeric.
2 There we are.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Mr. Djeric, that's the government minutes under that agenda item
5 reflect a discussion about the same issue that is the possible
6 demilitarisation of Sarajevo that was discussed at the Presidency session
7 of October 9th, 1992, correct?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. And if we could look quickly at the 56th session, agenda item 12?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher could you assist Mr. Djeric? Now we
11 are at the document I just returned to --
12 MR. TIEGER: That is P64A, tab 661.
13 Q. Mr. Djeric, you'll find that at page 7, and at the ERN 01245575,
14 you'll see those numbers at the top of the page and you'll see agenda item
15 12 at the top of the page. If you still have the minutes of the
16 Presidency session of 9 October, the one we've been looking at for
17 sometime now, you'll see that the minutes reflect the following, at the
18 Presidency session of October 9th the status of the Serbian university is
19 being considered the need to elect a rector, financial assistance, et
20 cetera. In that connection I ask you to look at item 12 of the 21 October
21 government minutes, the 56th session which state, "the decision appointing
22 Vojislav Maksimovic as the Sarajevo university rector was adopted."
23 Again, Mr. Djeric, does the minutes of the government session held
24 on 21 October reflect a discussion and indeed a decision about the same
25 issue addressed at the Presidency session of October 9th; that is, the
1 need to elect a rector. Correct?
2 A. You're right. I remember that. I mean, this was discussed and
3 the rector was appointed.
4 Q. And that factor would tend, I take it, given your reliance on your
5 memory in connection with the allegations of forgery to support the
6 conclusion that the minutes you looked at before are indeed authentic,
7 that is they reflect a discussion that was taking place roughly
8 contemporaneously with another government body or another body of the
9 Serb -- of the Bosnian Serb authorities.
10 A. Please, I'm talking about this, I mean I'm talking about the
11 appointment of the rector. I remember that. I do not remember the other
12 questions. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure whether this has to do
13 with a proposal for the position of rector. I mean, I do not remember
14 which organ was making a decision, was it the assembly or the government.
15 I remember it was discussed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, the issue is that Mr. Tieger puts to you
17 that some of the items that were discussed in -- on at least according to
18 the minutes you said were forgeries, that some of the items discussed
19 according to these minutes appear soon afterwards in government meetings
20 in a similar way as they had been discussed in the -- at least as we see
21 them discussed in the minutes of the 9th of October and what Mr. Tieger
22 puts to you is whether you would agree that this would be contrary to a
23 conclusion that these minutes of the 9th of October are a forgery.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- well, as for the record of the
25 9th of October, I said -- well, I said what I said, that Krajisnik, as far
1 as I can remember, never chaired a Presidency session. That is one thing.
2 And then I remember -- I mentioned all these other things. For me, those
3 minutes are unreal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. I indicated earlier that we would look at a document in connection
7 with your assertion that this document is a forgery, because you resigned
8 in Prijedor on that date, and, in fact, we do not have as the Court and
9 the parties know, the transcript of that session. But we had an
10 opportunity to look at the minutes of that 21st session of the assembly of
11 Republika Srpska and I'd ask that that be provided to you at this point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger it has been established that both the 55th
13 and the 56th session are already in evidence so the numbers 1290 and 1291
14 are vacant.
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I'll provide the Court with the
16 exhibit number --
17 MR. STEWART: May I simply observe this that when numbers are used
18 earlier on and then they are vacated it doesn't make the subsequent
19 reading of the transcript any easier although we end up with documents,
20 this happened a million times in this case anyway. We end up with
21 documents in evidence more than once but it actually helps the reading of
22 the transcript later if we leave the numbers as they are because they have
23 been used in the course of evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unless it's immediately established in the same
25 transcript, but we'll consider that.
1 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. I just observed that
2 practical matter.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour this is P583, tab 102.
4 Q. Mr. Djeric, as you can see, these are the minutes of the 21st
5 session of the assembly of Republika Srpska held on 30 and 31 October and
6 the 1st of November, and those minutes reflect, at page 9 of the English
7 and page 7 of your version, in B/C/S, Mr. Djeric, that the Prime Minister
8 gave his resignation to his position orally but that the assembly did not
9 decide about the proposal on the vote of confidence in the resignation of
10 the Prime Minister and as we have seen in other evidence, that issue was
11 raised again at the 22nd assembly session held in Zvornik, at the end of
12 November 1992.
13 Mr. Djeric, this clearly indicates, correct, that your resignation
14 or the submission of your resignation in Prijedor didn't take place on
15 October 9th but took place at the end of the month or beginning of the
16 next month?
17 A. You see, these dates, maybe I don't remember them very well. I
18 kept thinking it was the 9th of October. I'm not challenging this. These
19 are things that can easily be checked out but then at this session in
20 Prijedor I not only resigned orally, I resigned in writing, because a
21 resignation was required in writing. I tendered it in writing, I signed
22 it, and that was that. The assembly, well, as far as I'm concerned, I had
23 resigned. And the assembly at its next session in Zvornik adopted that
24 resignation. They could have adopted it at the 21st session in Prijedor
25 too. They could have. Now, why they didn't, that's a different matter.
1 And why this entire -- well, process was dragged on for two months, I mean
2 that is probably something that was required due to political needs but I
3 resigned orally and in writing. It was signed at this session Prijedor.
4 Q. We discussed the April 26th instructions at the outset of this
5 session. And when you were asked about that yesterday, the Court asked
6 you immediately before addressing the 26th April instructions about an
7 excerpt from the assembly session of 24 March 1992, that is the 12th
8 session. That was at page 54 of yesterday's transcript. And there, the
9 Court was asking you about and quoting from the assembly in connection
10 with the tasking of the government regarding an operative plan for
11 assuming power. And you professed to have no recollection of that
12 session, I think you said specifically what assembly, where was this
13 assembly held, as far as you could remember there was no assembly and then
14 the questioning moved on to the 26th April instructions.
15 Now, Mr. Djeric, this particular session, from which the Court
16 quoted an excerpt concerning the government's tasking to prepare an
17 operative plan for assuming power, was, in fact, the date on which you
18 were nominated for and accepted the position of Prime Minister. And in
19 that connection, I'd like you to be presented with the transcript of the
20 12th session and I'd like you to look at page 43 of the B/C/S, that's
21 contained at pages 24 through 26 of the English.
22 You see that, Mr. Djeric?
23 A. [No interpretation].
24 Q. You'll want to turn to page 43, Mr. Djeric.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would appreciate if you read it literally to the
2 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
3 Q. There we see the chairperson indicating, "I hereby open up for
4 discussion the proposal for the premier designate for our government who
5 shall propose members for our government at the next session on Friday.
6 At the next 13th session which will follow today's 12th session, ministers
7 in certain fields will be proposed," and then it goes on, no one wants to
8 take the floor, already no other nominations, the assembly unanimously
9 adopts the proposal that Dr. Branko Djeric be elected the premier
10 designate of the future government of the Serbian people of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the chairman notes this would Mr. Djeric like to
12 say something and indeed, Mr. Djeric, as you can see, you do, beginning,
13 Mr. President, ladies and gentlemen, deputies, one should say something at
14 a moment like this.
15 You remember that session now, Mr. Djeric?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Okay. Now, as Mr. Krajisnik indicated in the remarks immediately
18 preceding yours, there would be two sessions, and in fact there was a
19 subsequent session on the 13th which was held approximately 25 minutes
20 after the 12th session adjourned. So you were the last speaker,
21 Mr. Krajisnik indicated that we conclude the 12th session, and then there
22 was a short break, beginning at 1555 hours and the 13th session then began
23 at 1620 hours on the same date. And if we look at, Mr. Djeric, the 13th
24 session, page 13 of the English and I'll provide you with the B/C/S and if
25 you will look at page 10?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found that, Mr. Djeric, page 10 of the
2 document, which will be -- oh, you have not even received the document.
3 Mr. Usher could you please give page 10 to the witness.
4 THE USHER: Yes.
5 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, where are we finding the
6 English version?
7 MR. TIEGER: Page 13 -- not the page but the actual document.
8 MR. TIEGER: I understood that the parties and the Court were
9 informed to bring certain sessions, including this session.
10 MR. STEWART: No, we weren't -- the 17th session, the parties
11 which is only us, actually, if you take a way the Prosecution, we were
12 told the 17th session, which we brought with us. That's the only
13 information that I'm aware of so the Court has the advantage over us here.
15 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, it seems to have been an oversight and my
16 apologies I'll read it slowly if it helps. I think it's material.
17 MR. STEWART: Okay, I was just puzzled. We will proceed like
18 that. I accept the apology. Of course these things happen.
19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you for that, Mr. Stewart.
20 Q. On page 13 of the English and page 10 of the B/C/S, Mr. Djeric, we
21 first see Mr. Krajisnik speaking. So a conclusion is instructed by which
22 the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina would be
23 given the assignment to draw up a plan of assuming power and rendering
24 operational the authorities in the territory of the Serbian Republic of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the government will propose the plan to the
1 assembly on Friday, if we arrange for an assembly to meet on Friday. And
2 you, Mr. Djeric, speak immediately after, saying and confirming, "The
3 government will have the duty to draw up an operational plan and to submit
4 it for adoption. We shall do our best to speed things up, to gain time
5 wherever possible. There is no reason to think that we are running late
6 in assuming the power because a lot has been accomplished by now. Please
7 do not take things in your own hands. You will receive your instructions
8 and you will proceed as instructed."
9 It is correct, Mr. Djeric, that the government, in fact, was
10 tasked with creating an operational plan for assuming power as confirmed
11 explicitly and directly by you at that session, correct?
12 A. I think that in -- there was no conclusion adopted in this sense.
13 Perhaps an operational plan was discussed, the implementation of the
14 assembly decisions because here it also says you will receive instructions
15 and you will -- I mean who? Who am I addressing?
16 Q. Well, Mr. Djeric, I have considerable number of ideas about that
17 but you're the witness and you said it. Why don't you tell the Court
18 please who you were addressing and what the operational plan was instead
19 of suggesting that you didn't even know this session took place?
20 A. I didn't say I didn't know. Yesterday I said that it was at Pale.
21 I did not dispute in any way that session, that meeting. But here we are
22 talking about the takeover of power and addressing, you know, as if
23 that -- there was somebody that I was addressing. These were just
24 deputies of the Serbian people in their own assembly. They were not the
25 ones who were being assigned any roles. The government operational
1 programme could have been discussed in accordance with assembly
2 conclusions. So that could have been a topic of discussion. But as for
3 instructions or issuing instructions to anyone, I think that that
4 simply -- something is not quite clear here. The government did
5 everything within the assembly, within the sense of the assembly
7 Q. So if I understand you correctly, what you said and what you were
8 referring to is not quite clear to you and you don't recall what the
9 operational plan was?
10 A. I don't recall what the operational plan was or if there was any
11 talk about takeover of power there.
12 Q. What do you mean if there was any talk about taking over power?
13 You said there was no reason to think that we are running late in assuming
14 the power. Mr. Krajisnik said the government would be given the task to
15 draw up a plan of assuming power. Of course, there is talk about assuming
16 power. It's right there in front of you. Now, do you remember the
17 operational plan for that purpose or not?
18 A. No, I don't remember that. We are talking here about drafting an
19 operational plan and so on and so forth.
20 MR. TIEGER: I'm looking at the time, Your Honour.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The government didn't exist at the
22 time. What government, when there was no government then?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, if there was no government, what was
24 there then at that period in time?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prime Minister-designate was
1 named at that session. And that was it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Was there a kind of interregnum, that the council of
3 ministers was still functioning or ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I don't
5 remember. It preceded the government. But I mean, as to whether it had a
6 practical role, practical force, whether it worked or not, I really don't
8 JUDGE ORIE: Wasn't it true that the appointment of ministers in
9 the new government was discussed during this session after a decision had
10 been taken to relieve from duty the council of ministers of the Assembly
11 of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I do remember that at this
13 meeting, after -- well, two ministers were proposed, the minister for
14 internal affairs and minister for foreign affairs, and that was all at
15 these sessions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Were they proposed or were they elected, Mr. Djeric?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were proposed or
18 nominated, and the assembly accepted that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that the proposal was put to the
20 assembly and that it was, for example, talking about Mr. Buha, that it
21 says the assembly unanimously adopted the proposal to elect Professor
22 Aleksa Buha -- isn't that -- accepted.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes. I think I said
24 that. It's true that Buha was nominated and Mico Stanisic was nominated
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when I asked you were they proposed and were
2 they elected, Mr. Djeric, the answer was just yes to these two, because
3 your first answer was that they were proposed and you said, you added to
4 that, they were proposed, and you mentioned the two ministers, and that
5 was all at these sessions where it appears that these two ministers were
6 not only proposed but that this proposal was adopted by the assembly. So
7 it was not all at these sessions that they were proposed but the two of
8 them were --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were proposed, and the
10 assembly confirmed that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nomination.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Tieger I'm looking at the clock but
14 also listening to Judge Hanoteau who wanted to ask one question but --
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Djeric, in the minutes of
16 this assembly session, on page 5 in the English version, I read the
17 following: "[In English] Professor Branko Djeric speaking, I have
18 completed my consultations. In the meantime, I can propose two candidates
19 for two departments. For the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Professor Buha.
20 For the Minister of Internal Affairs, Mico Stanisic. I trust you know
21 the future ministers well enough so that is no need for lengthy
22 explanations here. These two officers have greatly contributed to the
23 affirmation of the Serbian national interests in these difficult times."
24 [Interpretation] Does that mean that you'd already worked with Mr.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know him at all. I said
2 that keeping in mind the opinion of people from the party who nominated
3 him. I didn't know him personally. I knew Buha but I didn't know him.
4 So I simply considered that it was the interest of the party, that the
5 party was putting him forward for this post, so I proposed him. I mean, I
6 couldn't really choose. That was the party candidate. And I remember
7 that at that meeting the post of the Defence Minister, I said, would be
8 something that I would be carrying out until further notice, work on
9 preparations of laws and so on and so forth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break until quarter past 6.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.55 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Djeric, just before we recessed, Judge Hanoteau was asking you
16 about comments you made at the 13th session concerning the Minister of
17 Internal Affairs, Mico Stanisic, and we had previously discussed the plans
18 for actions that would be taken in the near future. The Court has already
19 heard considerable evidence about the role of the MUP in the period of
20 time that immediately followed the 12th, 13th and 14th sessions, so I'm
21 not going to direct my attention to Mr. Stanisic or the splitting of the
22 MUP but I wanted to focus for a moment and then move on, on your specialty
23 which you indicated was economics. And in that connection I wanted to
24 turn to the 14th session of the assembly, page 17 of the English, page 19
25 of the B/C/S. The 14th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly was held on
1 March 27th. And at page 16 and 17 of the English, Mr. Djeric, and page 18
2 and 19 of the B/C/S, you speak, and if I could turn your attention to page
3 19 of your version, the fourth paragraph from the top, which
4 begins, "Accordingly we must divide," do you see that? And there you
5 indicate, Mr. Djeric, accordingly we must divide the income and clear up
6 the accounts, the sooner we do it the better. In conformity with our
7 agreement at our last session, I have taken it upon myself to have certain
8 preparations made and I must say that the preparations have been
9 undertaken with the utmost care. The public has been informed that today
10 you adopted a decision on establishing this service affecting the transfer
11 of payments and so forth. I want to you know, however, that as of 1
12 April, the payment of revenue into the central treasury will cease.
13 Now, that, Mr. Djeric, reflected your efforts and the efforts of
14 the Bosnian Serb authorities toward the economic disempowerment of the
15 Bosnian government, correct?
16 A. You see, as part of the Bosnian government, talks on the
17 regionalisation and decentralisation of power were conducted, so in
18 accordance with that, no accord could be reached because the central
19 powers were in favour of centralism, a unitary state, a centralist state,
20 and ...
21 Q. Sorry to interrupt you but I'm not asking you why you did it. I'm
22 simply asking you to confirm that this reflected efforts toward the
23 economic disempowerment of the Bosnian government. It's clear enough,
24 isn't it?
25 A. Not paying in dues became a practice. These -- this is something
1 that the local units did. They stopped paying in their dues a long time
2 before, and to us it was important to establish order.
3 Q. Mr. Djeric, that's to say the least disingenuous and you know it.
4 Let's look at your words. I want you to know as of 1 April the payment of
5 revenue into the central treasury will cease. You just told us it stopped
6 before. That's right. It's right there in black and white.
7 A. My response was sincere. I took an oath for that. The
8 municipalities stopped paying in their funds a long time before. What we
9 are talking about here is that as of April 1st, the service, the public
10 accounting service, was supposed to start operating in the Serbian areas,
11 but as for that whole matter, some municipalities stopped paying their
12 dues in a long time before.
13 Q. That was all part of the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina into
14 separate ethnic units and the assertion of control and power by the
15 Bosnian Serbs in the areas they claimed, right?
16 A. I wouldn't agree with you because there was no question of the
17 division of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was a question of the restructuring or
18 reorganising of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Nobody was in favour of a
19 division of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but they were in favour of finding a
20 solution somewhere between decentralisation and centralisation using the
21 best European experiences in that sense.
22 Q. There would be a separate police, there would be a separate
23 banking structure, but there would be no division? Is that what you're
25 A. That doesn't necessarily have to mean that. Why would that mean a
1 division, if certain regions were getting organised? Is division to you,
2 for example, the organisation of some European region? Perhaps it would
3 have a constitution or some other things but it doesn't constitute a
4 division. Simply, it was an attempt to reorganise the state. A compromise
5 was being sought. We did have a kind of political maxim and that was the
6 confederation of Bosnia and Herzegovina as the maximum, but it would also
7 imply a kind of minimum that everybody would agree on so there was no
8 question of division, the Serbian side never was for the division of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina. There are my statements after all. You will
10 never find in any of my statements that Bosnia and Herzegovina was being
11 brought into question. Perhaps I talked about a confederation and also
12 respect for the equality of the peoples, their equality before the law.
13 It's not true to say that there was any talk about division.
14 Q. Well, let's look at a couple of other things that you said, then.
15 Yesterday, at page 75 of the transcript, you were asked about a letter of
16 7 August 1992, that was I think P1248.1 and you were shown that. At this
17 point I'd like to show you P583 tab 119. And again, Mr. Djeric, I'll
18 indicate to you that this is a document that was obtained from the
19 Republika Srpska government archives. As we can tell from the markings,
20 Mr. Djeric, this is a different draft of the August 7th letter. You
21 recognise the signature and stamp that appears on that letter?
22 A. This is not complete. I cannot -- this is not complete so on the
23 basis of this I really cannot say anything. You can only see half here.
24 Q. Well, I can see the beginning of the letter, I can see the number
25 that is affixed to it 06-25/92, and I can see the end of the letter which
1 says, Dr. Branko Djeric, has a signature and a stamp. What's missing?
2 A. I simply do not recall signing documents like this.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A public statement on behalf of the
5 government was something that would have been drafted by the public
6 information service. I wouldn't do anything like that. Simply I think
7 that this is not quite -- something is not quite right.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Well, the public discovery and the international outcry that
10 followed the discovery of the Omarska camp and the Trnopolje camp was a
11 matter that generated considerable concern among Bosnian Serb officials,
12 wouldn't you say?
13 A. Well, I remember -- I mean, that there were comments about that.
14 Now, as for concern, well, I think that word would be too strong.
15 Q. Mr. Djeric --
16 A. Because these were reception centres, so I do not see any reason
17 for concern in that sense. But at any rate, this created a necessity for
18 us to have this checked out.
19 Q. Anything in this document, Mr. Djeric, with which you now
21 A. I mean, I'd have to read it. In principle, I think -- I don't
22 know what the point is for me to agree with a document, I mean, as I've
23 said, I don't remember this and I didn't do that, and I mean, had I done
24 this it would have been different, of course.
25 Q. That's not your signature, Mr. Djeric?
1 A. Sorry, what was that?
2 Q. Is that your signature, Mr. Djeric?
3 A. My signature? Well, simply, I mean, well, the document is not
4 mine. I mean, I didn't do this. In the signature, no, I don't see the
6 Q. Mr. Djeric, are you looking at the document bearing the ERN
8 A. I'm looking at document 069522.
9 Q. Please look at P583, tab 119, which is 01246820?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take care, perhaps you put it on the ELMO.
11 Second page 01246820 and 21, lower portion, the second page. There we
12 are. A little bit up, Mr. Usher, please. No, to move down the camera or
13 move up the document. That's the same. Yes. A little bit further,
14 please. Yes.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Same question, Mr. Djeric. Is that your signature?
17 A. Well, I'm not sure. I mean, quite simply to put it simply, I
18 mean, I would not sign -- I mean, you see that this was corrected up
19 there, document was corrected. Things were crossed out.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, why not try to answer? You say, "I'm not
21 sure." Does this resemble -- we have seen -- or at least we have seen a
22 lot of signatures that are supposed to be yours. Does this resemble your
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, this is different because in the
25 last part it's not as usual. I mean that is one thing. And well, I mean,
1 I've already answered that. I've given you an answer.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You're not sure. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not sign documents like this.
4 Like this. I did not sign documents like this.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us that before. Please proceed,
6 Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Let's take a look at tab 21, a letter of May 24th.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 21 of what?
10 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. I think they haven't been
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, they have not.
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, tab 21 contains P583, tab 52, a letter
14 to the Honourable James Baker, Secretary of State, Department of State.
15 And it ends with the words, "respectfully yours, Professor Branko Djeric,
16 Prime Minister."
17 Q. Remember this letter, Mr. Djeric?
18 A. 24th of May? I mean, well, specifically I don't remember this
19 letter. I remember that there was some correspondence but, say, that
20 specifically I wrote to Mr. Baker, well, no, I don't remember.
21 Q. Do you accept or dispute that this is your letter to Mr. Baker?
22 A. I simply do not remember.
23 Q. This letter assures Mr. Baker -- first of all, it begins by noting
24 the most disturbing news coming out of the ministerial conference of NATO
25 suggesting the use of force against the Serbian population and then it
1 goes on to issue a series of denials about what is taking place in Bosnia
2 and emphasises that the Serbian side is holding no hostages, operating no
3 camps, not killing unarmed civilians, and reports, alleging such crimes
4 appearing in the US press and elsewhere are not based on facts. It then
5 goes on to cite population figures, Serb title to arable land reflecting
6 the fact that before World War II genocide was committed against the Serbs
7 by Muslims and Croats and talking about the concentration of Muslims in a
8 few towns of Central Bosnia. Does that refresh your recollection, Mr.
9 Djeric, that in the face of possible international reaction to concern
10 about what was being reported from Bosnia, that you on behalf of the
11 Bosnian Serb authorities issued this denial letter to Mr. Baker?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. What about this --
14 A. Quite simply, I don't remember this, because, I mean, well, I'm
15 not the one -- I mean, the foreign minister could perhaps write something
16 like this or -- well, I don't remember. Quite simply, I don't remember.
17 Q. You remember receiving the disturbing news that there was a
18 possible use of force by the international community threatened in the
19 face of allegations about what Bosnian Serbs were doing to Muslims and
20 Croats in Bosnia?
21 A. I don't remember that either, because as for that part of the
22 policy, it was conducted by the Presidency. Policy did not belong to the
23 government. The government did not deal in such matters. This was the
24 exclusive right of the Presidency.
25 Q. Do you remember the allegations, the press reports, alleging such
1 crimes appearing in the US press and elsewhere?
2 A. I don't remember because quite simply I did not have time for that
3 kind of thing. You know, I was preoccupied with social problems. People
4 were homeless. There were enormous problems, vital problems. Problems
5 dealing with life itself. That is what I primarily dealt with. Not this.
6 I didn't have time for this. So for the most part, this was the purview
7 of the work of the Presidency. Karadzic dealt with that, you see? He did
8 for the most part. Koljevic. Up to a degree, Plavsic too. So it was for
9 them, and of course the people around them. I'm primarily referring to
10 the part of the people who were, from a journalistic point of view, like
11 Ostojic. I mean I was well outside that.
12 Q. Let me get this straight, about 10 days before this letter, you
13 were according to you, at your wits' end because hundreds of Muslim
14 civilians were Bratunac had been taken to Pale and mistreated, right? You
15 told us about that.
16 A. Well, I mean, I said, well, I said that there was inhumane
17 behaviour towards them. I said that. And that's what I know. So
18 everything I know I said. And I said everything that I did for these
19 people -- well, to resolve that problem.
20 Q. Well, you told us everything you did? Those people were removed
21 from Pale, and taken outside the territory of RS, right?
22 A. No. These people from Pale -- well, they were offered -- I mean,
23 well, they were asked and they, well, expressed a wish to be transported
24 to Sarajevo and.
25 Q. [Microphone not activated]
1 A. What was that.
2 Q. To whom did they express that wish? Did they tell you directly or
3 did you hear it from somebody?
4 A. Oh, they heard it from someone else, not from me. I wasn't there
5 at all. I mean, I wasn't in contact with these people. I was just told.
6 Well, I took upon myself to have that problem resolved. And I heard that
7 people wanted to go to Sarajevo and I did everything, as I said, for this
8 problem to be resolved, for these people to be taken to Sarajevo. What
9 else could I have done? I could not have returned them. I mean, it was
10 clear that what was done there was done. I mean, it just could have been,
11 well, worse in a way, simply I was thinking what would be the best for the
12 security and safety of these people at that point in time, for that
13 problem to be resolved temporarily.
14 Q. What did you learn had happened to these people such that they
15 couldn't go back to Bratunac, they couldn't go back to their homes? You
16 said, "I mean, it was clear what was done there was done."
17 A. Well, you know, I don't know about that. I told you about it
18 today. I mean, I told you today with full responsibility that I was not
19 abreast of that at all. This man who mentioned me does not know me at all
20 and he had no previous contact with me. I don't know him at all. So, I
21 mean, I got involved only when I heard that these people were. There
22 somebody brought those people there and just left them there and now on
23 the basis of what, on the basis of what channels, what lines, and so on
24 and so forth, and what kind of service, I don't know, I mean, I cannot
25 tell you anything about that. Except that I got involved in order to have
1 the problem solved.
2 Q. You got those people removed via those Muslims, 400 Muslim
3 civilians from Bratunac removed through the exchange commission?
4 A. Believe me, I don't know. I don't know. Was it the exchange
5 commission? I mean who was there -- I don't know.
6 Q. You signed the document creating the exchange commission, didn't
7 you, Mr. Djeric? You knew very well what the exchange commission was
8 because you signed that document on May 8th.
9 A. I don't know. I mean, what I signed, I don't know. I don't know.
10 And I don't know whether this commission was involved in this particular
11 case. That is the very beginning. I mean, of the conflict.
12 Q. That's right, Mr. Djeric, the exchange commission went to work
13 right away. Why don't you take a look at tab 1? That's P61, Your Honour.
14 And if you look at page 3 of the English, I believe that conforms to your
15 version as well in B/C/S, you'll see before the list of the 400 prisoners
16 from Bratunac that the document is signed on May 14th 1992 by the member
17 of the government's commission on behalf of the Serbian MUP for the
18 exchange of prisoners of war, Slobodan Markovic. That's how those
19 prisoners were removed from Pale and out of RS territory, correct?
20 A. I don't know about that. Quite simply, I was not abreast of that.
21 I mean further on. I mean I don't know. I don't know what commission and
22 so on.
23 Q. Well, Mr. Djeric, you just finished telling us not too long ago
24 about how you rose to the occasion, outraged, at your wits' end at the
25 presence of these people who had been removed from Bratunac and mistreated
1 and then did everything you could to get them out of Pale so just at what
2 point did you drop the ball and not have any more contact and/or any more
3 understanding of how they were removed from Pale?
4 A. Well, simply, I thought -- I mean, well, that in that way, my role
5 came to an end. I mean, really, I was angry because I was caught
6 unawares. Imagine somebody doing something like that without your
7 knowledge, you don't know anything about it. And you have to resolve the
9 Q. And the exchange commission was the vehicle set up for doing
10 precisely that, correct? The official channels went into play and those
11 people were removed. That's what happened, right?
12 A. Well, you see, I mean, this commission belonged to the Ministry of
13 the Interior. I, well, I assume, well, simply, as far as, I mean, well,
14 this was done all over the place, you see, all over the place. I mean,
15 this is a civil war, and there was a conflict, and, well, you know, now,
16 how to protect the population, the civilian population, from all sorts of
17 local people who had some of their own nearest and dearest killed? Well,
18 so that happened. I mean, people were exchanged. But I was not involved
19 in that. Or did I know much about that. It was these ministries that
20 dealt with this, the Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of the Interior and
21 I don't know who else.
22 Q. You know very well who else. Let's take a look at the decision to
23 form a central commission signed on 8 May?
24 JUDGE ORIE: That would be what tab, Mr. Tieger?
25 MR. TIEGER: If it's included it's tab -- well, it's an extra tab.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger we have to stop at 7.00 sharp; you're
2 aware of that.
3 MR. TIEGER: I'm aware, Your Honour.
4 Q. That's the decision, that's P436 and it's the decision on 8 May to
5 form a Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War arrested
6 persons and the bodies of those killed. It lists the representatives, the
7 membership, the representative of the Ministry of Justice, representative
8 of the Ministry of Interior, Mr. Markovic whose name we've seen and a
9 representative of the National Defence ministry and it indicates at the
10 end that the decision will come into effect on the day of its adoption.
11 It is signed and stamped with your name.
12 Mr. Djeric, is that your signature and did you sign that document
13 on 8 May?
14 A. I think, well, there is no denying that this commission existed.
15 I just don't know who established it. I mean, I see, well, you know
16 what --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric, Mr. Djeric, would you please answer the
18 question? The question was whether it's your signature and whether you
19 signed it.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, quite simply, I have been
21 caught unawares by these documents. I mean, I do not want, well, you
22 know, I mean, I see that these signatures differ so that keeps me sort of,
23 well, I don't know. I mean -- the signature is a bit different from my
24 signature otherwise. It's a bit different. There are some similarities.
25 At first it is similar and then the other part is different.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer is that you can't confirm that this is
2 your signature. Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, no more questions. I wouldn't want to
4 run the risk of overrunning the time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we adjourn, could I ask the parties
6 whether there is any agreement on the date by which any objections raised
7 to documents --
8 MR. HARMON: There is, Your Honour. The agreed-upon date would
9 be the 22nd of August.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That leaves some uncertainty about admission into
11 evidence of some documents. Is any of the parties intending to then later
12 complain about not being in a position to prepare for final argument for
13 this reason? Apart from the -- well we heard some general complaints on
14 times and I just want to --
15 MR. STEWART: Well, I was interested. I notice, Your Honour,
16 added those words at the end to cover the fact that there is a general
17 complaint. It's for the general complaint is a sense of overwhelming in
18 that I doubt whether this particular matter is going to cause us any extra
20 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I have one suggestion if we could defer
21 this question to tomorrow to the beginning of the session I want to raise
22 another point with Mr. Stewart, which --
23 MR. STEWART: I'm entirely agreeable to that, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask Mr. Usher could you escort
25 Mr. Djeric out of the courtroom but not until after I've instructed him
1 that you should not speak Mr. Djeric about your testimony with anyone, the
2 testimony already given or still to be given. We would like to see you
3 back, quarter past 2.00 tomorrow, in this same courtroom.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, looking at the number of tabs you have
6 presented, I can imagine that you still would have a lot of questions for
7 this witness.
8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, no, the tabs do not in any way represent
9 the number of documents I intend to go through.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But could the Chamber conclude that -- could the
11 Chamber take it that you've used your time as you wished and that tomorrow
12 we'll give an opportunity to the Defence to put further questions to
13 Mr. Djeric?
14 MR. TIEGER: I hope not, Your Honour. I would ask for some time
15 tomorrow and try to pare it down as much as possible. I've tried to do
16 so. I don't have a great deal more but I think there are some things that
17 are -- would be useful.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, in view of what you said earlier, if we
19 would grant 15 minutes to Mr. Tieger tomorrow would that bring you any
20 specific problems.
21 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Where we intend to -- could you please indicate to
23 Mr. Tieger perhaps when you speak to him or to indicate tomorrow morning
24 in court but perhaps discuss this with Mr. Tieger what time you would be
25 able to agree upon without getting into trouble yourself, taking into
1 account that we have to stop at 6.30 tomorrow.
2 MR. STEWART: That's helpful, Your Honour. I will certainly do
3 that. May I just say that obviously it would be helpful to have an
4 indication of which of these tabs are not going to be used.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. STEWART: That would be really valuable, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That is what they call quid pro quo. Could we then
8 hear from the parties tomorrow morning and we'll decide on the basis of
9 what we receive. Perhaps it's good that we have the information not just
10 when we enter the Court.
11 MR. STEWART: It would be latish tomorrow morning because we are
12 going to see Mr. Krajisnik.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Quarter past 2 -- Mr. Josse, could I just add, is the
14 Court intending to have a housekeeping session tomorrow and, if so, how
15 long is that likely to last so that my learned friends can put that into
16 their equation?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, the Court intends to spend
18 as little time as possible and only the time completely necessary on
19 housekeeping matters tomorrow but perhaps if you have any wishes on
20 housekeeping matters for tomorrow, please convey them to the legal staff
21 of the Chamber and then we'll give you a response prior to the beginning
22 of the afternoon session.
23 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn until quarter past 2.00
25 tomorrow, same courtroom.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of July,
3 2006, at 2.15 p.m.