1 Friday, 2 November 2007
2 [Status Conference] [Open Session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE MERON: Good morning. Please be seated.
6 Registrar, will you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honour. This is
8 case number IT-00-39-A, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE MERON: Thank you.
10 Appearances of the parties. Prosecution.
11 MS. McCALL: Good morning, Your Honour. I'm Shelagh McCall. The
12 counsel with me is Paul Rogers, and also our case manager, Lourdes
14 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Ms. McCall.
15 THE ACCUSED: Momcilo Krajisnik, accused.
16 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
17 Mr. Krajisnik, can you hear the -- Mr. Krajisnik, can you hear me
18 in a language in proper translation, in a language you understand? I
19 think you need earphones.
20 THE ACCUSED: Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE MERON: You can hear me?
22 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Your Honour, I do have earphones, small ones.
23 JUDGE MERON: So I couldn't see them from where I am. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: Thank you.
25 Amicus, I understand that the amicus will be connected with us
1 through an audio link. Mr. Nicholls?
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. I am present on the telephone
3 with Michelle Butler, who is one of my consultants.
4 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. I gather that you are in
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I am in London.
7 JUDGE MERON: Thank you.
8 This is, as you know, a Status Conference called in accordance
9 with Rule 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
10 Rule 65 bis (B) requires a Status Conference to be convened within
11 120 days of the last Status Conference to allow any person in custody
12 pending appeal the opportunity to raise issues in relation thereto,
13 including the mental and physical condition of that person.
14 The last Status Conference in this case was held on 5 July 2007.
15 I would like to begin the Status Conference by inquiring into
16 Mr. Krajisnik's health. Mr. Krajisnik, I will give you a chance later in
17 the Status Conference to address other issues, if you have any, but right
18 now I simply would like to limit myself to asking you to speak to any
19 concerns that you have regarding your mental or physical well-being.
20 Would you please respond, Mr. Krajisnik.
21 THE ACCUSED: Your Honour, I don't have any specific problems, and
22 thank you for asking.
23 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik. This is reassuring. You
24 may be seated.
25 Now, before we turn to other issues, I want to say a few words to
1 the parties and to the amicus about scheduling.
2 I'm sure you are all aware of how the schedule works, but I want
3 to go through it again now.
4 First, on the Prosecution's appeal, as noted at the last Status
5 Conference, the briefing on this was completed on February 22nd, 2007,
6 when the Prosecution filed its reply brief.
7 Second, regarding Mr. Krajisnik's appeal, I gather from the
8 Registry that Mr. Krajisnik submitted his appeal brief on 29 October 2007
9 in accordance with the deadline established in the Appeals Chamber's
10 decision of 27 September 2007.
11 I have heard that the translation should be complete around the
12 middle of November. Once the translation is completed, the Prosecution
13 then has 40 days, under Rule 112, to submit a response which may not
14 exceed 30.000 words in length. Once Mr. Krajisnik has received the B/C/S
15 translation of the response, he will then have 15 days, under Rule 113, to
16 submit a reply which may not exceed 9.000 words in length.
17 Based on my rough estimations as to how long the translation
18 process will take, the briefing should be completed in February 2008.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, I emphasise that under the Rules, you will have
20 only 15 days to write and file your reply once you have received the B/C/S
21 translation of the Prosecution's response. I will ask for the Registry to
22 provide you with as much notice as possible regarding the date on which
23 you will receive the translation. You should therefore be prepared to
24 work quickly and comply with the deadline. The Registry will assist you
25 in contacting individuals such as Mr. Hrle, whose assistance they have to
1 arrange. It is, however, your responsibility to contact other individuals
2 with whom you have made your own arrangements, such as Ms. Gajovic.
3 At this point I would like to ask the parties and amicus whether
4 they have any other issues that they would like to raise at this time, and
5 let me start with Ms. McCall from the Prosecution.
6 MS. McCALL: Thank you, Your Honour. We have nothing to raise.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, this is Colin Nicholls, the amicus,
9 JUDGE MERON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: We are anxious, as amicus, to make representations
11 that we should have the right to make a submission in reply to the
12 submissions that are made by the OTP and Mr. Krajisnik. I think perhaps it
13 is too complex a matter to deal with on the telephone in this way, and
14 with the Chamber's permission, what we would like to do is to file a
15 motion within the next two or three days setting out what we are seeking
16 in detail and the potential consequences of it.
17 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Nicholls, I think this is just the right
18 procedure that you are, in fact, suggesting. I will look forward to
19 receiving the motion, and I --
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE MERON: I can easily understand your interest in being able
22 to have an input at this stage of the proceedings.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
24 JUDGE MERON: Of course, this will be decided -- the motion will
25 be decided, depending on its content, perhaps by the entire Appeals Bench
1 sitting in this case.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, of course.
3 JUDGE MERON: Now, the Prosecution has no comment.
4 Mr. Nicholls, I take it that -- so I would have called on you a
5 little bit later -- that you don't have any additional comments at this
7 MR. NICHOLLS: No, no, thank you.
8 JUDGE MERON: So I will now turn to Mr. Krajisnik and ask him
9 whether he has any issues that he would like to raise.
10 THE ACCUSED: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 I only have one matter to raise, which concerns the following: I
12 do not have the conditions in place allowing me to work properly on my
13 appeal. In fact, my conditions are below the minimum of the minimum, to
14 put it that way. For this reason, I am requesting you to work toward
15 providing me the conditions that would allow me to properly work in the
16 forthcoming period, since in the past period I came across enormous
17 difficulties in trying to prepare my appeal. Such a situation may lead to
18 my appeal having some technical shortcomings due to the inadequate
20 If you want me to explain this in greater detail, I can. I am
21 appealing to you to provide me with some assistance in this regard because
22 I practically do not have anything, save for the basic necessities.
23 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
24 I can assure you that the Bench is very much interested in your
25 having the -- in the circumstances in the Detention Unit, bearing in mind
1 the requirements of security, confidentiality and the general rules of the
2 Detention Unit, we would like you to have the best conditions in which you
3 could work on your appeal.
4 It has been my impression that the conditions that you have have
5 improved and are basically sound. I understand that you have a privileged
6 phone and fax line. You had Ms. Gajovic, I presume, with Mr. Hrle --
7 you're saying you did not have a privileged phone and fax line with them?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will take up 15
10 minutes, perhaps, to explain to you what it is that I have at my disposal.
11 Believe me when I tell you that you do not have accurate
12 information, because I have so far had no assistance whatsoever. What was
13 done was merely to satisfy the form, because if an adviser wants to come
14 over to me but is unable to bring along even a pen and a piece of paper,
15 can only go in to talk to me as it is, it cannot be helpful. If an
16 interpreter or a translator comes over to see me, and if I have to go
17 through the transcripts in English with him in order to be able to know
18 what they say, and the translator is not allowed to do them -- that and
19 you can see what my predicament is.
20 As far as the privileged phone line is concerned, I, just as all
21 the other inmates, can designate only one telephone number that I would
22 have a privileged relationship with, not more. All the communications
23 I've had so far were regular ones with the card that I have. I do have a
24 telefax machine that can be used for sending faxes through the UN
25 detention staff. It takes a day or two. It was only the UNDU that was
1 forthcoming in their assistance. I only had the assistance of Mr. Hrle
2 for seven days, where he, using an office within the UNDU, to go through
3 my papers and to see whether I've made correct references to the
5 As for Ms. Gajovic, she took the material that I worked on and
6 tried to reduce it because it exceeded the time -- the page limit, and
7 whatever had to be translated had to be translated outside the UNDU.
8 I cannot work this way. I believe that the Chamber should
9 prescribe in detail what it is that a detainee is allowed to do. I did
10 not ask anything that would breach security. I wanted to solve my
12 For instance, now I will have the time limit of 15 days to reply.
13 I will have to make certain contacts to have somebody come over to
14 translate something into English. I have to have CDs, I have to have my
15 laptop, and I have to have all of this in the prison. I can't have
16 someone translating this outside of the prison. I have to work with the
17 translator as he's doing his job, and I've tried to assure everyone of
18 this for many times.
19 I will be perhaps too frank, but I have to have people at my
20 disposal who are able to solve my problems. I've heard for 100 times this
21 particular point when they tell me, "Well, you've decided to defend
22 yourself, so there you are." It's not -- that's not the problem, and it
23 is because of such an attitude that I've had difficulties in preparing my
25 I'm very grateful to the Appeals Chamber for granting me the right
1 to defend myself. However, please, I need your assistance in enabling me
2 to work, for instance, for these 15 days within which I will have to reply
3 to the Prosecution's response, to be able to work with someone in the
4 UNDU. I need 100 things that somebody might assist me in doing. I can't
5 do everything on my own. You know, there are certain moments when I need
6 to have a certain piece of information at that very moment rather than
7 having to contact the person who's outside.
8 Mr. Nicholls will be able to confirm this to you. I received all
9 the material in boxes, and I have no idea what is in them. I went to see
10 what was in the boxes one day, but I was unable to verify this for myself.
11 And these are the sort of difficulties, Your Honour, I'm faced
12 with, especially because such conditions require me to make interruptions
13 in my work. You see, I'm working in my cell, and then when I have to
14 consult someone, I have to stop and go and get in touch with them. So, of
15 course, a person such as myself is able to defend himself, but if there
16 are adequate conditions in place allowing him to do so.
17 Thank you for hearing me out. That's one matter I wanted to
19 I have another matter, if you allow me to.
20 JUDGE MERON: Let's stay with this one for a moment,
21 Mr. Krajisnik.
22 I still understand that there is a privileged phone and fax line
23 which you have to be in contact with legal assistants who have been
24 approved. That line is available to you for contacting Ms. Gajovic, if
25 you are still working with her - that is between you and her - and
1 Mr. Hrle with regard to whom the Registry has been very helpful in
2 arranging for that, and of course those contacts need not be interrupted
3 entirely between now and the time you will have to work on your further
4 preparation of your additional and further briefings.
5 I understand, from what you've said, that you do have a privileged
6 phone and fax line which you can use to communicate with your legal
7 assistants, but perhaps your concern was, if I understood it correctly,
8 that you have only one line. Is that the problem? Is one telephone line
9 to connect you with regard to privileged -- is one privileged line for
10 communications not adequate, really?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I found a legal
12 assistant who met the requirements of the Registry. This legal assistant
13 of mine stopped working for me, at his own request. I only had one
14 telephone number, rather, that I used, and that was Ms. Gajovic I was
15 referring to.
16 JUDGE MERON: Ms. Gajovic. Now, the arrangements with
17 Ms. Gajovic, you have made. The Registry, I don't believe, can be blamed
18 for Ms. Gajovic not continuing those contacts with you. Mr. Hurley is
19 still available to you?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. You see, Your Honour, if there
21 is just this one telephone number that I can call, and regardless of who I
22 choose as my assistant, and if I choose a person -- a lawyer who is in
23 court all day long, then I can only get in touch with that person in the
24 evenings, when he's at that phone number. It is true that I made these
25 arrangements with Ms. Gajovic. However, I had other suggestions that I
1 put to the Registry, but since these persons did not meet the requirements
2 of the Registry, I told the Registry to provide me with three persons of
3 their own choosing, as long as I have someone to work with.
4 So they chose these three persons and, well, they found Mr. Hrle
5 who came and worked with me. I am not opposed to them finding three
6 persons. However, I don't believe it is correct to have that sort of
7 financing that I have, but I don't think that I can be entitled to only
8 one telephone number, as all the other inmates are, because I need to get
9 in touch with this person, wherever the person is at whatever -- or,
10 rather, close to whatever telephone line that person is, wherever, in
11 Belgrade. That's the problem.
12 JUDGE MERON: What is the up-to-date situation on your legal
13 assistance? I understand that you met with Mr. Mrkic and Mr. Vujicic and
14 this has not worked out. Now, Ms. Gajovic is now -- you -- is not
15 continuing to work for you, is not interested; correct?
16 THE ACCUSED: No, no, she's not continuing.
17 JUDGE MERON: The only legal assistant you now have who is willing
18 to continue working with you is Mr. Hurley; correct?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and he's in Belgrade at
21 JUDGE MERON: Well, and you have no way of suggesting, yourself --
22 you have been authorised to go up to three assistants, as you know. You
23 have no suggestions for the other two at this moment; right?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Registry found fault with
25 whomever I suggested, and I suggested that the Registry assign three
1 lawyers. I'm not opposing that. I just want to finish my appeal.
2 JUDGE MERON: Okay. I think that what I would ask the Registry,
3 given the fact that the arrangements with regard to Mr. Mrkic and
4 Mr. Vujicic did not work out, to try and propose to Mr. Krajisnik
5 additional two names and try to work this out as soon as possible. That's
6 the first point. So the Registry -- I would ask the Registry --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE MERON: -- to try to come up with two additional prospects
9 or candidates for your legal assistants.
10 For the time being, you have one legal assistant and you have one
11 privileged line, and it is not obvious to me, as yet, why one privileged
12 line would not be adequate. However, what I suggest, that if you really
13 find, if you really find that it's not adequate, for example, if you have
14 three legal assistants and this becomes a problem, please request this
15 from the Registry, and I will follow these discussions between you and the
16 Registry with personal interest.
17 Now, the language assistance is, of course, available to you
18 throughout the process, and Mr. Vasic is working with you, is available
19 with you, and you are meeting with him.
20 You mentioned a laptop, but I understand that you have been
21 provided with a regular computer which you have in your cell. Now, a
22 regular computer is more efficient to work with than a laptop, and I
23 understand that if you have a computer, it is not the practice to provide
24 in addition to that. A laptop, I understand that you wanted a laptop, as
25 long as you did not have a personal computer, which you now have.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE MERON: You have, of course, also access to a standard
3 telephone line. You have access to a standard fax machine. You have
4 printing privileges which are available to other detainees in the United
5 Nations Detention Unit. You may instruct investigators and others to help
6 you with your research.
7 Now, I understand, nevertheless, that you feel that you don't have
8 as much help and facilities as you would like to have. I would prefer to
9 have this discussion in terms of specifics. When you see that there is a
10 real problem, request it from the Registry, not only orally; write them a
11 letter, and I'll be following that.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sir, Your Honour, let me explain to
13 you why I need a laptop.
14 My room is on the first floor, and I have a meeting with the
15 translator on the ground floor. The translator comes without a pen or a
16 piece of paper. I would like to take a CD, put it in a laptop in front of
17 him in order for him to look at the English transcripts. You see, I
18 cannot carry the personal computer I have out of my cell, and without the
19 translator having access to the transcript, I cannot work, because I make
20 references in my appeal to certain pages in the transcript and then I want
21 the translator to check whether my reference is correct. I did that work
22 in my cell. And of course there can always be oversights. That's why I
23 have to have him to double-check that.
24 And I would like you to explain this privileged line issue as
25 well, but --
1 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Krajisnik, do other detainees in the Detention
2 Unit, in addition to a computer, have a personal laptop?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, nobody does. Well, I'm not
4 asking for a laptop. I only would like for a computer to be placed in the
5 room where I have these meetings.
6 JUDGE MERON: For a computer which would be different from the one
7 which you have in your cell or the same one?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm only asking to be able to take a
9 CD with me and then put the CD in a computer in that room for the
10 translator to help me. This is something I can't do at present. It may
11 be -- it may sound benign, but it is very important to me.
12 JUDGE MERON: You are not asking for a personal computer in the
13 room where you are the meeting, you are asking for the computer to be
14 there so you can play your CD; is that correct?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is right, only that, and DVDs
16 as well. I just want to be able to run my checks in that room.
17 JUDGE MERON: Why don't you request it specifically of the
18 Registry, and I will keep an eye on that.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've already requested all that. I
20 can request it again.
21 JUDGE MERON: Do request it again, and in writing, and explain it
22 clearly, that you want a computer to be available in the room where you
23 are meeting with your assistant, your translator, et cetera, in order to
24 be able to play your CDs, et cetera, et cetera.
25 Okay, what is the other issue that you had in mind? I believe you
1 mentioned there was an additional issue that you wanted to raise.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one last thing about the
3 telephone, Your Honour, if I may.
4 We can keep this line that I have, but I should be allowed to make
5 calls during the day to several numbers so that I can locate my advisers.
6 I only have one number at my disposal, and that person can be at that
7 number only in the evening. It's too late by then. I can have one line,
8 but I should be allowed to call different numbers. Why cannot I use the
9 regular line? There are ten inmates on the floor. People are nervous.
10 If I occupy the line for 15 to 20 minutes, they get nervous. First of
11 all, I'm spending a lot of money, and there are people are queuing up.
12 And they tell me, "Why are you using this line, when you have the
13 privileged one? I'm trying to talk to my family and you're just sitting
14 on the phone." I tried to do that, and people were not forthcoming, but
15 it was not fair from my side because I took their time away during which
16 they should have been able to talk to their families.
17 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Krajisnik, of course the Registry has to
18 maintain some kind of an equitory quality between you and other persons in
19 the Detention Unit, but why don't you put it also in your letter to the
20 Registry and I would like to here what they have to say about it.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 JUDGE MERON: Do you have additional points to make?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what I wanted to mention,
24 Your Honour. I don't know how appropriate it is to address the matter
25 here. However, I'm forced to.
1 I wrote my appeal. Since I drafted it myself, I am afraid that I
2 may have got wrong on a number of page of transcript or a number of
3 document. I would just ask you to be allowed to go through the appeal and
4 to check the numbers again. Some technical errors may have occurred,
5 since I had to compare that with page numbers.
6 I'm trying to make things easier for both you and the Prosecution,
7 and that is why I'm asking for this. There may have been errors that I
8 made, since I was the only person working on it.
9 JUDGE MERON: I would think, and let me hear the Prosecutor on
10 that, too, that if Mr. Krajisnik would want to submit a purely technical
11 corrigendum saying, "Page X should read as page so-and-so and not
12 so-and-so," "paragraph Y should read paragraph D," this should not be a
14 Let it be clear that we are not talking, Mr. Krajisnik, about
15 additional argument or discussion of evidence. We are speaking about
16 technical corrigendum. So we understand each other; correct?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, completely. I may have erred
18 in the number of a page or a document. Maybe there are no mistakes, but I
19 just would like to be sure.
20 JUDGE MERON: I don't see a problem with that. You just go ahead
21 and submit to us the corrigendum.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
23 JUDGE MERON: Those were all the things you wanted to raise;
24 right? I mean, we are finished with --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further issues to raise,
1 Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MERON: Does the Prosecutor have any comments on anything
3 that has emerged from my discussion with Mr. Krajisnik?
4 MS. McCALL: Your Honour, just one comment.
5 Mr. Krajisnik mentioned having material in boxes and not knowing
6 what was there. Just to intimate to the Chamber that the Prosecution
7 arranged for him to have access to the electronic disclosure system and
8 provided him with a CD index of all the materials that were sent during
9 trial to his former counsel that are contained in the boxes, so he has a
10 means to know what's there; perhaps not to find it in the boxes, but we've
11 assisted as much as we can with that.
12 JUDGE MERON: And I understand that, Mr. Krajisnik, you have had
13 recently training in electronic disclosure. You wanted to --
14 Mr. Krajisnik, you have a comment?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I have to express my gratitude
16 to the Prosecutor's office, although they are my arch enemy, of course.
17 However, they were very fair in many things. They assisted me greatly.
18 Whatever I asked them to do, they did.
19 However, this remark made by my learned friend needs to be
20 corrected. I did receive some training in the last 15 days, perhaps, but
21 in order for me to be able to find a single document, it takes me up to 10
22 minutes to wait, since the technology seems to be extremely slow. I
23 attended the training for two days, and as a matter of fact, I learned I
24 wasn't able to use that system.
25 You had promised this to me, and I'm grateful for that. I can
1 only say that the OTP was very efficient in that. I'm not trying to be
2 unfair. When I asked the Registry for some documents, they were very
3 efficient and forthcoming, but what was lacking were the conditions. I'm
4 trying hard not to say something that would be incorrect. I was not able
5 to use the EDS system because it is incredibly slow. It takes me 10
6 minutes to locate a single document. I cannot waste my time like that.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
9 Any comments from the Prosecutor on that?
10 MS. McCALL: Your Honour, if there's a technical issue with the
11 electronic disclosure system, Mr. Krajisnik can bring that to attention of
12 the information support people.
13 JUDGE MERON: How long, in your view, should it take to find a
15 MS. McCALL: I think -- I don't know the answer to that, on
16 average, Your Honour, but I think one of the problems at the UNDU relates
17 to the width of the band connection that they have to the system. So it's
18 not specifically the EDS that's the problem, it's the connection to it and
19 the amount of traffic going along it. And I understand steps are being
20 taken to try and remedy that.
21 JUDGE MERON: So you are aware of the problem that Mr. Krajisnik
22 has been having, specifically, or of the general problem?
23 MS. McCALL: I was aware, when we requested the installation of
24 the EDS unit into the UNDU, that this problem existed and that steps were
25 being taken to increase the bandwidth to minimise the delay in the
2 JUDGE MERON: I would ask the representative of the Registry here
3 to report to the Registrar on this problem and see how this can be
4 addressed technically to speed up the access to documents so that the
5 concerns of Mr. Krajisnik could be accommodated or addressed as much as
7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. I will do that.
8 JUDGE MERON: Thank you so much.
9 I see there are no further problems, so we will now conclude this
10 meeting. Our business is concluded, and I thank the parties for their
11 attendance, and I call these proceedings to a close.
12 ---Whereupon the Status Conference concluded at
13 9.40 a.m.