1 Monday, 21 July 2008
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The appellant enters court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
6 JUDGE MERON: Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-00-39-A, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Krajisnik, could you please tell me that you
10 can hear me in a language you understand, and for the record state your
12 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Momcilo Krajisnik. I can follow
13 the proceedings in my language. Thank you.
14 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
15 Appearances, the Prosecution first.
16 MR. KREMER: Your Honour, Peter Kremer appearing for the
17 Prosecution. With me is Katharina Margetts and our case manager Lourdes
19 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Kremer.
20 Now let's hope that the teleconference link will function
22 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Alan Dershowitz.
23 JUDGE MERON: This is what I have been looking forward to,
24 hearing your voice, Mr. Dershowitz.
25 Can you hear me well?
1 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I can hear you well.
2 Thank you very much, Your Honour. It's Alan Dershowitz calling from
4 JUDGE MERON: Very good. I'm pleased to have you with us.
5 Now, Ms. Butler and Ms. Whitaker appearing on behalf of the
6 amicus and who are also in attendance via teleconference.
7 Ms. Butler, Michelle Butler, and Quincy Whitaker, can you hear
9 Your voice sounds very weak. Could you repeat it?
10 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Yes. Thank you, Your
11 Honour. Can you hear us now?
12 JUDGE MERON: Yes, I can, just barely. Let's hope that by the
13 time we get back to you, the sound will be a bit stronger.
14 So thank you all. This, as you know, is a Status Conference
15 called in accordance with Rule 65 bis of the Rules of Procedure and
16 Evidence. Rule 65 bis (B) requires a Status Conference to be convened
17 within 120 days of the last Status Conference to allow any person in
18 custody, pending appeals, the opportunity to raise issues in relation
19 thereto including the mental and physical condition of that person. The
20 last Status Conference in this case was held on 31 March, 2008.
21 I would like to begin this Status Conference by inquiring into
22 Mr. Krajisnik's health.
23 Mr. Krajisnik, I would like you to respond on this issue, and now
24 you have -- you will have a chance later on in the Status Conference to
25 address other issues if necessary, but right now I would like you just to
1 speak to any concerns you have regarding your physical or mental well
3 Mr. Krajisnik.
4 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] I feel well, Judge. Thank you
5 for asking.
6 JUDGE MERON: Thank you. I take it you have no other physical or
7 mental issues you would like to raise with me, and I am pleased to know
8 that you are well and that everything is well.
9 Now, you may sit down, Mr. Krajisnik.
10 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE MERON: Now, I want to say a few words to the parties and
12 to the representatives of amicus about scheduling. I note that the
13 Scheduling Order for the appeals hearing was filed on the 18th of July,
14 2008. The appeals hearing is scheduled to be held on Thursday, 21 August
15 2008, in Courtroom I, from 8.30 a.m.
16 Mr. Krajisnik, let me ask you to clarify an issue in relation to
17 the appeals hearing. Will Mr. Dershowitz be arguing the JCE issue during
18 the hearing, or will you do it yourself? That's a question to you,
19 Mr. Krajisnik.
20 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Judge, I'm pleased that
21 Mr. Dershowitz is taking part in these proceedings. I hope that he will
22 present the position involved. What I can say is that we have agreed
23 that at the final hearing, he will present his view regarding joint
24 criminal enterprise and other matters, of course, that are related to
25 joint criminal enterprise.
1 What I find a bit surprising is the fact that I hadn't heard of
2 this date earlier on, the 21st of August. This is the first time I hear
3 of it. I assume that this is the first time that Mr. Dershowitz hears of
4 it. However, I kindly ask you, since he is present, we have him on the
5 telephone, could he please say whether he will be in a position to attend
6 this final hearing.
7 JUDGE MERON: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik. As I have mentioned to
8 you, the Scheduling Order was filed on the 18th of July. I would have
9 assumed that it would have been communicated to you right away as well as
10 to Mr. Dershowitz; but before I turn to Mr. Dershowitz, let me make some
11 additional comments and then I will turn to him.
12 So you can sit down, please.
13 I would like to note here that pursuant to our decision, the
14 Appeals Chamber's decision of the 28th of February, 2008, the scope of
15 Mr. Dershowitz's representation of Mr. Krajisnik is limited to the issue
16 of JCE. That limitation applies also to Mr. Dershowitz's arguments
17 during the hearing. Furthermore, I note that under the Scheduling Order
18 of 18 July 2008
19 What this means is that Mr. Dershowitz and Mr. Krajisnik must decide
20 between themselves how to use the time allocated to the Scheduling
21 Order -- in the Scheduling Order for submissions by the appellant.
22 There is one further issue relating to scheduling that I would
23 like to note, and this pertains to Mr. Krajisnik's Rule 115 motion. The
24 Appeals Chamber is currently seized of the appellant's motion together
25 with a supplement pursuant to Rule 115 of the Rules, by which he seeks to
1 present additional evidence before the Chamber. Last Friday, 18 of July,
2 the Prosecution responded to this motion.
3 The Pre-Appeal Judge - that's, of course, me - has granted both
4 the appellant's and the Prosecution's request to exceed the word limits.
5 I understand the process of translation of the documents the appellant
6 seeks to have admitted has been completed today, Mr. Nemitz, that is
8 Today, that is on the 21st of July, 2008. So, all the documents,
9 by now, have been now translated.
10 The appellant, if he so wishes, will have to reply to the
11 Prosecution's response within 14 days after he has received the B/C/S
12 translation of the response.
13 Mr. Krajisnik, and I would like to remind you, please, that if
14 you choose to file a reply, you are required to respect the word limit,
15 which is limited to 3.000 words for a reply in the case of Rule 115
16 motion. As you know, we have been quite generous in regards to your
17 exceeding the word limits last time, but I must ask you this time,
18 please, comply with the Rules.
19 Considering this schedule, the Appeals Chamber will try to render
20 its decision on the appellant's Rule 115 motion and on the supplement
21 prior to the appeal hearing on 21 August 2008.
22 And, at this point, I would like to ask the parties and the
23 representatives of amicus whether they have any other issues that they
24 would like to raise at this time.
25 Let me start from Mr. Kremer for the Prosecution.
1 MR. KREMER: We have nothing to raise, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE MERON: Thank you.
3 Mr. Krajisnik, do you have any other issues you would like to
4 raise at this spot, or you would prefer me to go directly to
5 Mr. Dershowitz?
6 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Judge, I would just like to ask,
7 if possible, that before the 21st of August, I meet with Mr. Dershowitz
8 because my appeal is closely linked to joint criminal enterprise and the
9 arguments involved in that. When you speak to Mr. Dershowitz, I do hope
10 that you will take that into consideration and that such a decision can
11 be made. Certainly, it is the registry that is supposed to pay for
12 Mr. Dershowitz's visit because it would be appropriate for us to meet
13 before the 21st.
14 [Pre-Appeal Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE MERON: I'm afraid we have to wait a second for technical
16 problems. The line to Mr. Dershowitz at the moment is waiting to be
18 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Hello. Hello.
19 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Dershowitz, can you hear me now?
20 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Hello.
21 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Dershowitz, I can hear your voice, can you hear
23 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I can, yes.
24 JUDGE MERON: Great. Did you hear the comments made by
25 Mr. Krajisnik, that he was --
1 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I did, but I did not
2 hear the comments made by Judge Meron.
3 JUDGE MERON: Well, I think that as regards the desire of
4 Mr. Krajisnik to meet with you, this is between the two of you. You are
5 his counsel, and --
6 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Yes.
7 JUDGE MERON: -- you have the right to meet with him. There is
8 no problem that I can see about it.
9 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] No.
10 JUDGE MERON: Now, regarding the subquestion of payment for your
11 trip to The Hague
12 you are counsel of Mr. Krajisnik under Rule 44, I believe; and in these
13 circumstances, all the financial implications pertaining to your
14 participation in the case, on accomodation, travel, et cetera, are
15 imputed to Mr. Krajisnik.
16 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] That's not an issue
17 that I wanted to raise. I'm perfectly satisfied with whatever
18 arrangement the Court makes. My concern is that I received no notice
19 until just now of an argument on the 21st of August.
20 JUDGE MERON: Yes.
21 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] And it's not a date
22 that is available to me. Is that a firm date? I just, as I said, I just
23 received the notice in the oral discussion. I had never heard of the
24 21st before being a date for argument.
25 JUDGE MERON: Well, the Appeals Chamber issued a Scheduling Order
1 on Friday, and it was my sort of expectation that you would have been --
2 this would have been communicated to you without any delay; but, of
3 course, there is not too much difference between Friday and today.
4 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] No, no.
5 JUDGE MERON: And that order is, I'm afraid, quite firm.
6 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] It is firm. Okay.
7 JUDGE MERON: This is one day only, and I hope that whatever
8 other arrangements you have, it would be possible for you to come because
9 this is --
10 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] The other issue is
11 that the Court has not yet, as I understand it, ruled on Mr. Krajisnik's
12 115 motion that we were hoping to incorporate in the appeal because it
13 relates to the JCE issue.
14 JUDGE MERON: Well, you heard my comments on that a moment ago?
15 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I did not, no. The
16 phone went dead and I did not hear your comments.
17 JUDGE MERON: Okay. So what I will do is repeat what I said here
18 on the record, okay?
19 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Yes. Thank you.
20 JUDGE MERON: It's good that you have warned me about that. Here
21 is what I told the court a moment ago, and I will repeat it verbatim for
23 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Thank you.
24 JUDGE MERON: There is one further issue relating to scheduling
25 that I would like to note with respect to Mr. Krajisnik's 115 motion.
1 The Appeals Chamber is currently seized of the appellant's motion
2 together with a supplement pursuant to Rule 115 of the Rules, by which he
3 seekers to present additional evidence before the Chamber.
4 Last Friday, 18th of July, the Prosecution responded to this
5 motion. The Pre-Appeal Judge has granted both the appellant's and the
6 Prosecution's requests to exceed the word limit.
7 The Appeals Chamber has been advised that the translation of the
8 documents that the appellant seeks to have admitted as additional
9 evidence has been completed today, by the 21st of July, 2008. The
10 appellant, if he so wishes, will have time to reply to the Prosecution's
11 response, and he would have to do so within 14 days after he has received
12 the B/C/S translation of the response.
13 I reminded Mr. Krajisnik of his obligation to strictly adhere to
14 the word limit. You know, Mr. Dershowitz, that we have granted his
15 request --
16 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE MERON: -- for a rather significant excess of the word
19 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Yes. And I want to
20 advise the Court that I am not aware that he submitted this in excess of
21 the word limit, and it was done completely by him on a pro se basis.
22 JUDGE MERON: I'm certainly not attributing this to you,
23 Mr. Dershowitz. I understand that.
24 So, I concluded my comments on the Rule 115 motion by saying that
25 the Appeals Chamber will try, and I'm optimistic about it, to render its
1 decision on the appellant's Rule 115 motion and on the supplement prior
2 to the appeal hearing on 21 August 2008
3 when you prepare your comments for the hearing would be able to base
4 yourself on a definite ruling by the Appeals Chamber regarding the status
5 of those additional documents, additional evidence that Mr. Krajisnik
6 wanted to have admitted under Rule 115.
7 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Thank you very much,
8 Your Honour. Do you know whether we will have an opportunity to respond
9 briefly in writing and supplement our submissions in writing after the
10 Chamber renders its decision on the Rule 115.
11 JUDGE MERON: No, that will be the end of the story on that.
12 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] It will be oral, just
13 oral presentations?
14 JUDGE MERON: Oh, you mean during the hearing?
15 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Yes.
16 JUDGE MERON: I did not quite understand you. You respond
17 briefly in writing and supplement your submissions on what precisely? I
18 mean, that would not be any kind of an appeal on our ruling, would it?
19 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Well, since I don't
20 have the ruling yet, it's unclear. But let's assume that there is a
21 ruling that is adverse to Mr. Krajisnik and one that's relevant on the
22 appeal. I would be permitted, I imagine, to incorporate that in the
23 argument I'm making on the 21st of August.
24 JUDGE MERON: In your oral argument, you mean?
25 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Yes.
1 JUDGE MERON: Yes.
2 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] But not in writing?
3 JUDGE MERON: Well, let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
4 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Okay.
5 JUDGE MERON: If there is a motion that you would like to submit
6 prior to the hearing, I don't think that this would fit into the schedule
7 of briefings envisaged by the Rules, but we will look at it if you submit
9 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I understand. That
10 seems eminently fair.
11 Can you also tell me, Your Honour, how much time will be
12 allocated to my argument on the JCE?
13 JUDGE MERON: This was another matter which I mentioned in my
14 comments earlier today which, unfortunately, because of telecommunication
15 problems, you could not hear. I referred to the fact that your
16 representation is, of course, limited to the issue of JCE.
17 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Right.
18 JUDGE MERON: And that limitation applies also to your arguments
19 during the hearing that we have announced. And as stated in the
20 Scheduling Order of 18th July 2008
21 reached you and I would ask the registry to make absolutely sure that
22 another copy of that is faxed to Mr. Dershowitz -- excuse me.
23 [Pre-Appeal Chamber and legal officer confer]
24 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Dershowitz, I am told by my colleagues from the
25 registry that an e-mail was sent to all the parties, including yourself,
1 on the 18th, transmitting the full text of that Scheduling Order.
2 In any event, we did say in that Scheduling Order that you and
3 Mr. Krajisnik must decide between yourselves how to use the time
4 allocated in the Scheduling Order for submissions by Mr. Krajisnik. So
5 we just work it out with Mr. Krajisnik how much of his allotted time you
6 take --
7 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] That's --
8 JUDGE MERON: -- how much will be left to him. And we cannot
9 grant additional time to you or to Mr. Krajisnik, but you have, I think,
10 enough time within the parameters established by the Scheduling Order to
11 deal with that.
12 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] That sounds fine.
13 JUDGE MERON: Anything else that you would like to raise,
14 Mr. Dershowitz?
15 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I think not. I'm
16 sorry that my office did not seem to receive or certainly didn't
17 communicate to me the e-mail, so this did take me a little bit by
18 surprise. So I come less prepared to this hearing than I would like to.
19 JUDGE MERON: Well, I think you caught up very nicely.
20 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I appreciate that. I
21 don't know, but I'm sure it's in the order, how much time totally
22 Mr. Krajisnik and I will have to present his case. Does amicus also have
23 time to present? Do we have to divide it among three?
24 JUDGE MERON: No. You don't have to divide it among three. I
25 think the amicus got 30 minutes or something like that, but I don't want
1 to --
2 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] That's okay. I don't
3 want to take the Court's time.
4 JUDGE MERON: The amicus has 30 minutes, and there will be
5 response by the Prosecution to him, et cetera.
6 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] How much do we have to
8 JUDGE MERON: Well, I think it would be better if you would read
9 the Scheduling Order, but, as an exceptional measure of technical
10 assistance, let me --
11 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] I'm sorry, Your
13 JUDGE MERON: -- let me read a few words from the Scheduling
14 Order. Submissions of the appellant, one hour and 30 minutes, then there
15 is the opposed, then appellant has another 30 minutes, so it's two hours.
16 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] That's fine.
17 JUDGE MERON: Now, given your experience in American courts, I'm
18 sure you will consider this to be quite generous --
19 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] It is quite generous.
20 JUDGE MERON: -- since in the US Supreme Court, you would not get
22 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] No. It will only the
23 last 30 minutes.
24 JUDGE MERON: And, Mr. Dershowitz, I think, if you have nothing
25 else to raise, let me thank you for your participation.
1 MR. DERSHOWITZ: [Via telephone conference] Thank you. I'm sorry
2 for the difficulty, and I look forward to being in the court on the 21st
3 of August.
4 JUDGE MERON: And very much look forward to seeing you then.
6 I think we now turn to amicus, right?
7 Ms. Butler, Ms. Whitaker, can you hear me?
8 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Yes. Thank you, Your
10 JUDGE MERON: Do you have any issues on behalf of the amicus that
11 you would like to raise? And let me first make sure that you did receive
12 a copy of the Scheduling Order which we issued on Friday.
13 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Yes, we did. Thank you,
14 Your Honour. Just one matter we'd like to raise, and that is --
15 JUDGE MERON: It's terribly difficult to hear you. It's
16 terribly, terribly weak. Try to raise your voice as much as you can.
17 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Can you hear me now,
18 Your Honour?
19 JUDGE MERON: Sort of, yes.
20 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] There is just one
21 matter. We received the Scheduling Order. There was just one matter we
22 wished to raise and that is can we clarify when it is anticipated that
23 the translation of the Prosecution's response to Mr. Krajisnik's Rule 115
24 motion is anticipated that will be received in B/C/S?
25 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Kremer, when is your response anticipated?
1 That was the question.
2 MR. KREMER: [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. KREMER: The B/C/S version is in the hands of the registry.
5 JUDGE MERON: That is the response which I mentioned, and why
6 wouldn't the amicus be aware of that?
7 MR. KREMER: The amicus is asking the question as to when the
8 B/C/S version of the Prosecution's response will be available to
9 Mr. Krajisnik.
10 JUDGE MERON: Oh, I'm sorry.
11 MR. KREMER: That's the way I heard the question.
12 JUDGE MERON: You're quite right.
13 Ms. Michelle, please wait a second. We are checking that with
14 the registry.
15 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Thank you.
16 JUDGE MERON: Yes, indeed, the Prosecution responded last Friday.
17 While waiting for the response, is there anything else that you
18 would like to raise, or that's the only question that you have?
19 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] No, Your Honour. It
20 would be the times of the B/C/S translation of Mr. Krajisnik's motion
21 prior to the 21st of August. Otherwise, we have no other issues to
22 raise. Thank you.
23 JUDGE MERON: Thank you. Let's give it another second and see if
24 we can get some kind of tentative answer to you. Yes, I now have heard
25 from the registry that the B/C/S translation will be received on the
1 29th of July, 2008. Could you hear me?
2 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Yes. Thank you, Your
3 Honour. That is sufficient time.
4 JUDGE MERON: Yes, the 29th. So this answers your question. If
5 I understand your question correctly, this is the only question you
6 wanted to raise with me.
7 MS. WHITAKER: [Via telephone conference] Yes. Mr. Krajisnik has
8 sufficient time to respond after the translation.
9 JUDGE MERON: Yes, he will.
10 Thank you very much, and I believe let me just again check with
11 Mr. Krajisnik whether he would like to raise anything more.
12 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I haven't
13 received the scheduling - in fact, I have received a visit from my
14 family - it's possible that someone has put it in my room today, but I
15 haven't seen it. So I'm giving this answer with a sort of reservation
16 now. What I have gathered just now, if you can confirm that for me, the
17 total time for the presentation of the Defence case prepared by myself
18 and Mr. Dershowitz would be one and a half hours --
19 JUDGE MERON: Two hours.
20 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] -- with 30 minutes --
21 JUDGE MERON: It would be two hours. You will have a little
22 break in the meantime to rest. Altogether it will be two hours, and that
23 time you have to allocate, to divide, distribute it between yourself and
24 Mr. Dershowitz.
25 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] I was a little bit confused by
1 the time allocated. I heard from other appellants that the time was
2 longer. So this is only two hours available for the presentation of the
3 Defence case by myself and Mr. Dershowitz.
4 JUDGE MERON: You will later in the day have an opportunity to
5 respond to the Prosecution's appeal, but I'm speaking about your own
6 basic case.
7 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I understand. So
8 Mr. Dershowitz and I have in total two hours to present our appeal before
9 the Appellate Chamber, and that will be an oral presentation .
10 JUDGE MERON: That is correct.
11 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you
12 very much.
13 JUDGE MERON: And, again, please remember that you will have
14 other opportunities during the day to reply to the statement by the
15 Prosecution, and you will have additional 30 plus 20 minutes during the
16 day, which are in addition to what I mentioned.
17 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] So the additional 20 or 30
18 minutes is in excess of two hours, and that would be a rejoinder to the
19 Prosecution's argument, if I understand correctly.
20 JUDGE MERON: Mr. Krajisnik, you will find, in the Detention
21 Unit, the Scheduling Order. You don't need me to read it to you again.
22 Everything is very clear in it.
23 THE APPELLANT: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. Thank you
24 very much.
25 JUDGE MERON: And I just want to make quite sure that you
1 understand that you -- that the time allocated to you is normal time and
2 that you are not treated any less favourably than anybody else.
3 I think that this would conclude our business of today. Unless I
4 hear any comments from Mr. Dershowitz or Ms. Whitaker in London or from
5 the Prosecution or from Mr. Krajisnik, I will conclude our proceedings
6 for today. We'll call the hearing closed, and I thank the parties, the
7 amicus, Mr. Dershowitz, the interpreters, and the entire staff for their
8 help in arranging this meeting. After all, the communications did
9 function at least adequately. So I thank you.
10 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
11 adjourned at 2.52 p.m.