1 Friday, 28 July 2000
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the first case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-97-25-PT, the Prosecutor
8 versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Appearances, please. The Prosecution.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution is represented today by
11 Ms. Peggy Kuo and my name is Hildegard Uertz-Retzlaff.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. For Mr. Krnojelac.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will be
14 represented by Mr. Miroslav Vasic, Defence counsel.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
16 Mr. Krnojelac, are you able to hear the proceedings in a language
17 which you understand?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not Kunarac. I'm
19 Milorad Krnojelac.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Judge Hunt, interpreter's lapsus linguae.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. I thought I said Krnojelac. I may not
22 have pronounced it correctly. Are you able to hear the proceedings in a
23 language which you understand?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you very much. Please sit down.
1 The interpreter has conceded that it was her error and not mine,
2 and I'm grateful for that. If there's one person I think I should be able
3 to recognise at this stage, it would be Mr. Kunarac.
4 Now this is a Status Conference in accordance with Rule 65 bis.
5 Is there anything which is to be raised under the terms of that Rule,
6 Mr. Vasic.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
8 questions to discuss. The accused is just interested in indications about
9 the trial date, if there are any.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Vasic. That's,
11 indeed, what we are interested in.
12 Now, from the Prosecution's point of view, what stage have we
13 reached? At the last Status Conference, the accused had not at that stage
14 been interviewed. Has he been interviewed yet?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. During the last two months
16 we have conducted several interviews. The last one was actually
17 yesterday. Because of the health reasons, we had to interrupt our
18 interviews we had some weeks ago. The last interview took place yesterday
19 and we are now finished with the interview process.
20 What we need to do now is to have another extensive discussion
21 with Defence counsel about stipulations, if we could find some agreement
22 so that we can shorten the trial and would not need to have all the
23 witnesses here in this courtroom.
24 JUDGE HUNT: You mean you haven't yet got on to the issue of
25 agreed facts.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, because we wanted first to have the
2 interview finished, and now we have scheduled already another meeting with
3 Defence counsel, but due to the summer holiday, it will only be on the
4 22nd of September. During this meeting, which will maybe last also
5 several days, we think we can find an agreement on stipulated facts.
6 JUDGE HUNT: What about Rule 66? Have you now supplied all of the
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Are they redacted or unredacted?
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think they are unredacted but I'm not
11 sure -- no, I'm not sure. The originals as the supporting material were
12 redacted but the additional -- the additional materials like statements,
13 they were then given with their names.
14 JUDGE HUNT: When do you propose to disclose the names and other
15 identifying material and supporting material?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think the names are known to the Defence
17 counsel. We can do it right now. I mean, it's not a problem.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you should, because I think that the time has
19 come. Whatever view one might take about protective measures, the time
20 has come to disclose all of that material for this trial.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can do it right away. The names are
22 known to Defence counsel and he got other unredacted statements of
23 potential witnesses. But I ...
24 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that that's very satisfactory because it
25 means that there may be material in the supporting documents which is not
1 correctly identified or whatever. Just so there can be no argument later
2 on, I suggest that you comply with, I say, a 14-day order to identify all
3 persons named in the supporting material so that we've got it straight,
4 and there can be no argument at the trial that they haven't been given
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, we will take care of this
8 JUDGE HUNT: All right. That order will be made. You say that
9 all of the statements under 66(A)(ii) has, in fact, been supplied in an
10 unredacted form.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's very good to hear. Have there been any
13 matters to be raised by way of inspection of documents, et cetera, under
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: The next one is the provisions of Rule 67. Have you
17 notified the Defence of the names of the witnesses you intend to call?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE HUNT: When will you do that?
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We thought this would be part of the
21 pre-trial materials.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I think that we've got to look at it now because
23 hopefully this trial will be able to commence at the very conclusion of
24 Kunarac. It may even be possible, depending on what happens, to start it
25 whilst we're waiting for written submissions from counsel. I see Ms. Kuo
1 shaking her head. I'm not concerned about the problems of the
2 Prosecution having the same counsel in each. Our obligation is made very
3 clear: we have to get on with the next trial. If the Prosecution has set
4 out to put the same counsel in consecutive trials, it's a matter for them
5 to resolve, not me. I'm not saying we're going to do it because there may
6 not be time, but I want to be able to call this case on for hearing as
7 soon as possible and with little notice as possible, and I'll come to the
8 question of notice shortly.
9 However, when do you think you'll be in a position to be able to
10 notify the names of the witnesses you intend to call?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We can do it on short notice, actually,
12 because there's no doubt about who will come. It will be the detainees
13 who can say something about Mr. Krnojelac's position and about the
14 conditions, and the names of these detainees are known to Defence counsel
15 and also the statements are already in his possession.
16 JUDGE HUNT: The Defence counsel can only guess at what the
17 intention of the Prosecutor is. And the Rule is very firmly stated, "as
18 early as reasonably practicable" you must notify the names of the
19 witnesses the Prosecutor intends to call. Now --
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What we can do is we can do this within 14
22 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, then, an order will be made along
23 those lines. I should say, if only because of an issue which arose in
24 Brdjanin and Talic, that although that Rule and 67(A)(ii) speak about an
25 intention, if the Prosecutor forms an intention to call a particular
1 witness at a very late stage, and only then provides the statement and
2 notifies of that intention, it may be that that witness will not be
3 allowed to be called. So I suggest the Prosecution should have very much
4 in mind an open disclosure of its intentions and a speedy formation of
5 those intentions.
6 What about Rule 68? How are you going with that?
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have fulfilled our obligations and we are
8 still doing it. For instance, in the Kunarac case, there came up some
9 material which was provided to the Defence counsel and will be provided to
10 the Defence counsel also in the future.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. The performance of the Prosecution in relation
12 to Rule 68, of course, has been subject to criticism in other cases.
13 That's why I'm very concerned to keep emphasising this continuing nature
14 of the obligation. And it may be that we will require another signed
15 report by somebody that they have made full investigation of that matter
16 at some time prior to the trial.
17 Have you received a notice of any special plea yet? I should
18 imagine not yet from the state of progress so far.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, of course, the Defence doesn't have to notify
21 that until they've received a compliance with Rule 67(A)(i).
22 The fixing of times of pre-trial briefs is probably a little
23 premature, but I would expect the Prosecution to start thinking of a time
24 when that will be ready so that there should be a very speedy compliance
25 with the terms of Rule 65 ter.
1 I also want to indicate that we propose in this case to vary
2 slightly the way in which documents are tendered. The present system,
3 which is better, I hasten to add, than it is in other Chambers
4 nevertheless does cause some confusion as to whether a document is, in
5 fact, in evidence. What I suggest is that the Prosecution should continue
6 to prenumber its documents but not to call them an exhibit. They can be
7 marked as an exhibit if they, in fact, become an exhibit. But they can be
8 prenumbered and that is the number that can be used to identify them, they
9 being marked for identification, and it will also be the number of them as
10 an exhibit if they become an exhibit. But they should not be called an
11 exhibit until they become one. That, I think, will prevent an awful lot
12 of confusion.
13 The next thing I wanted to ask: What sort of notice does each
14 party require as to the precise date for commencing the trial?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I must confess that we have not considered
16 this but --
17 JUDGE HUNT: If you could give it some consideration. It's a very
18 important matter. The state of the list is such that we would be subject
19 to, I think, a justifiable criticism if we did not start this as soon as
20 possible after the current trial. The current trial, of course, is in the
21 hands of the Defence at the moment and we simply do not know how long it's
22 going to take. But at some stage during the course of the Kunarac trial,
23 it will become apparent, when the evidence will finish, and at that stage
24 I would like to be able to notify the parties here in this case of a date
25 when we hope to be able to commence the trial. Now, that should not be a
1 very long period. I'm talking about a matter of weeks rather than
2 anything else. So if you could give some consideration to what time you
3 need to notify your first lot of witnesses and that sort of thing, then
4 we'll be in a position to be able to fix a date.
5 Now, Mr. Vasic, from your point of view, what sort of notice do
6 you require or does Mr. Bakrac require for the commencement of the trial?
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence will be ready
8 to commence the trial as soon as you have finished the ongoing trial, and
9 the Defence will make no problems in requiring additional time for
10 preparing the evidence.
11 JUDGE HUNT: You mean you'll be able to fit in with whatever date
12 we fix at that stage?
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Well, during this period of waiting
14 for the trial, the Defence has been preparing for our trial without
15 knowing when it will actually begin. So the Defence will be in a position
16 to accept whatever date you set.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm very grateful to hear that. I should say so that
18 everybody knows at this stage, the Trial Chamber will not be able to sit
19 during those first two weeks of December, that the term continues because
20 of home-leave for some of our members. If we can start the trial in the
21 end of this year, we will certainly start it if we can get a good
22 substantial run-on. Otherwise it may, unfortunately, be the beginning of
23 next year. But we do not propose to lose the idea of starting it
24 hopefully before the end of November.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have just discussed it with my
1 colleague. What we need for the preparation of the witnesses, and
2 especially for the travel arrangements and the discussions with the
3 Victims and Witnesses Unit, we would need three weeks.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Three weeks.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Three weeks.
6 JUDGE HUNT: That's a good figure. I'm quite happy with that.
7 Is there anything else that either party wishes to raise in this
8 Status Conference? Very well, then.
9 We'll adjourn, and hopefully there will not be the need for
10 another Status Conference and we'll see you at the beginning of the
11 Pre-Trial Conference. We're adjourned now.
12 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
13 at 10.17 a.m.