Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 265

1 Tuesday, 31 October 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you were taking the

10 witness.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 WITNESS: WITNESS FWS-12 [Resumed]

13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, witness.

16 A. Good morning.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, you may remember yesterday that

18 you saw the blueprint of the KP Dom. It is Prosecution Exhibit P6. We

19 have put it here on the easel just for you to remember it, and what we did

20 yesterday evening, we produced a blow-up of a particular section of this

21 blueprint. My colleague will show to you which section we made a blow-up

22 version of, and it is exactly the administration building and the

23 prisoners' quarters referred to by the witness yesterday. And we have

24 also for you the Exhibit 6 for all of you in the big version to orient

25 you. I think it was distributed. And what we then did is we gave to the

Page 266

1 witness five copies and he drew in this --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, would you? I seem to have one, two,

3 three, four, five copies of the same document. I don't think that was

4 intended. Just wait until we sort these out.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It was arranged, Your Honour. It was

6 arranged in a certain order.

7 JUDGE HUNT: We Should have, then, four copies of the same

8 document with different writing on them; is that what you're saying?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Five, actually, because the witness

10 will explain to you, the witness has drawn into these copies the exact

11 location of the rooms.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Right.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The problem arose from the fact that the

14 prisoners' quarters and the administration building are not on the same

15 level. So what is the ground floor on the administration building is

16 actually almost nothing on the prisoners' quarters, just the mezzanine.

17 And when you have the first floor of the administration building, it's

18 actually the ground floor of the prisoners' quarters. Therefore, you have

19 five separate drawings of the same, actually, basic buildings.

20 We could not achieve to translate the documents this morning, but

21 you will receive it during the day, and I hope even during the testimony

22 of this witness. But I think even with the Serbo-Croatian version we can

23 get along this morning.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm very grateful to you. Now that I've worked

25 out what they are, it does seem a lot easier to follow along than the

Page 267

1 perspective drawing. Thank you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I would like to have the usher give

3 this set of documents to the witness, and I think the Defence also has the

4 drawings.

5 THE REGISTRAR: May I please give an identification number to this

6 set of documents which you just tendered?

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think they will all be tendered into

8 evidence --

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but it's best to have them identified, as the

10 court deputy suggests. How about 6A?


12 JUDGE HUNT: 6/1, all right. And then when we get the English

13 version, that can become 6/2.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

15 THE REGISTRAR: 6A was already marked yesterday as the English

16 version of this blueprint.

17 JUDGE HUNT: 6/1.

18 THE REGISTRAR: So Is it 6/1 to 6/5? Is there five copies of

19 that.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, there's five. But the translation is

21 6/1A and 6/1B.

22 THE REGISTRAR: All right.


24 Q. Witness, the first document would be 6/1. Witness, can you

25 briefly tell us what you have drawn into the ground floor of the

Page 268

1 administration building?

2 A. Here is the ground floor of the administrative building containing

3 on this side the room for guards on duty, then two cloakrooms, and two

4 rooms for the storage of weapons, where we left our sidearms and weapons.

5 From this corridor you could go to the staircase leading to the

6 upper floor. Then the toilets, then the switchboard, manned by the woman

7 Dara, and then archives and one office. Here you see the main entrance

8 into the administration of the KP Dom. It continues with the room where a

9 search would be conducted of new arrivals who would then be released

10 through this door to the compound, to the yard of the KP Dom.

11 On the right-hand side, when you enter, there is a long corridor.

12 The first office on the left in this block was the censorship where visits

13 would be announced, packages would be received and sent, and mail would be

14 sorted, money would be received, people would apply for visits. Then

15 comes Room 1 and Room 2. Those were bedrooms where convicts received

16 visits from their wives, fiancees or girlfriends could spend time with

17 them without anyone present, without supervision of the guards.

18 Follows a hall, a big room, where people would have conversations,

19 convicts would have conversations with their visitors with only the

20 supervision of a guard. Here you see a room of the photographer, but his

21 entrance was from the courtyard. This part of the building was the

22 canteen, and you entered the canteen from the courtyard. Prisoners would

23 enter from the other side.

24 Q. In the prisoners' quarters, the other building, there would only

25 be the mezzanine on the same level, on the below ground floor, so to

Page 269

1 speak?

2 A. Yes, you're right. This storage room, the depot, was dug into the

3 ground, but it was on the level of the ground floor of this other

4 building, because that's how the terrain lay. It was hilly and the

5 buildings were on a slope. So this is why this storage room was dug into

6 the ground, and this storage room was on the same level as the ground

7 floor of the administrative building.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you. Please turn to the next drawing you made, and

9 that would be 6/2. You have -- yesterday you explained to us that in this

10 part there was the -- there were offices. Can you point out to us which

11 was the office of the guards' commander?

12 A. This room here belonged to the commander of the guards. These

13 were the rooms of the supervisors, our supervisors, who were subordinated

14 to the guards' commander. Those are these rooms here. And this complex

15 of rooms belonged to the guard service.

16 Q. And in the rooms facing the yard, what was in these rooms? You

17 have drawn in here three different rooms and a closet -- and a toilet.

18 A. Yes. Apart from the staircase and the toilets, there were rooms.

19 One of them was occupied by a psychologist who talked to new arrivals,

20 Then there was their tutor, and I don't remember who occupied the last

21 room.

22 Q. You explained to us also yesterday that in the other wing of the

23 administration building there were offices as well, as you have drawn in

24 into this. In the prisoners' quarters, that would be the ground floor,

25 actually, of the prisoners' quarters, you have drawn in the sets of

Page 270

1 rooms.

2 A. Yes. I made a drawing of the ground floor of building 1 and

3 building 2, where we can see that the building number 1 starts with this

4 line here and ends with this line there. So this is the area of building

5 1, whereas this area here is building number 2.

6 On the ground floor, I drew Room 11. On the left-hand side it has

7 a small anteroom; then toilets and a small bathroom. Then a small hall

8 leading to four bedrooms, two of which were longer than the other two.

9 That was Room 11.

10 On the right-hand side we have Room 12, which was smaller. It had

11 a small bathroom, a toilet, a small anteroom and two bedrooms. That was

12 Room 12.

13 Q. Yes. And you have also drawn in Room 16 in the building number B,

14 and it looks the same as 11. Isn't it?

15 A. Room 16 is identical to Room 11, but on the right-hand side, what

16 you see here were solitary cells with isolators. Section C, one anteroom,

17 one toilet, and one small bathroom. That was the only difference.

18 Q. Let's now turn to the next drawing, that is then 6/3. On the

19 ground floor, I would like you to point out the office of the warden -- on

20 the second floor of the administration building. Can you point out to us

21 the office of the warden?

22 A. The warden's office was on the second floor. It consisted of a

23 small reception area where Borkica Starovic, the warden's secretary,

24 worked, and the remaining area belonged to him.

25 Q. Can you tell us the rooms that were in the prisoners' quarters,

Page 271

1 which would be the first floor of the prisoners' quarters? Just tell us

2 the room numbers. You have made a very precise drawing; I don't think we

3 need to discuss each separate room. Just tell us the numbers of the

4 rooms.

5 A. In building 1 there are Rooms 13 and 14; in building number 2,

6 there are dormitories 18 and 19.

7 Q. When you say "building 1," "building 2," I would prefer that you

8 saw A or B because that's what we said yesterday.

9 A. I'm sorry.

10 Q. Let us move to the next drawing, and that would be 6/4. In the

11 administration building there was nothing any more because it's lower. Is

12 that what's indicated here?

13 A. Yes, quite correct. I could not write anything in here, but this

14 is the second floor.

15 Q. And on the second floor of the prisoners' building, you have

16 indicated which rooms?

17 A. Here we see building A, the hospital, and Room 15, where older,

18 elderly convicts lay. And in the hospital they had their out-patients'

19 department, the pharmacy, and a doctor. On the right-hand side was Room

20 15.

21 Q. Yes. In block B?

22 A. In block B there was Room 20 which covered this entire complex,

23 this entire area. In Room 21, which was a smaller room, it was on the

24 right-hand side. It was smaller than Room 20.

25 Q. Let us turn to the last of your drawings, and that would be 6/5.

Page 272

1 What do we have in block B -- I'm sorry, A? Are there any cells in block

2 A?

3 A. In building A, on this floor there were no cells. It contained

4 one part of the hospital which we referred to as TBC. This was the

5 contagious area where patients, prisoners, with infectious diseases lay.

6 And on the right-hand side there were rooms which also belonged to the

7 hospital. Those were rooms for the medical staff, offices, the x-ray

8 room, the laboratory, et cetera.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these were the drawings which I

11 would like to -- we have the English version. I was just told that we

12 have the English version now. Could you please ...

13 JUDGE HUNT: If only to reinforce the point I made yesterday, that

14 took just one-third of the time it took yesterday with the added advantage

15 we now understand what we're all talking about.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, you're right, Your Honour. I also noted

17 it, and your suggestion was really very good. So I would like to enter,

18 then, these documents into evidence.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, except -- excuse

21 me. I don't know if we could perhaps object to the last photograph not

22 having been commented upon. I would only like to ask the witness to

23 comment upon the right-hand side of the building because it remained

24 unclear. I can ask that in the cross.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I suggest you do so in the cross-examination. You'll

Page 273

1 have every opportunity to follow it up then.

2 Well, those will be Exhibits P6/1 to /5, and P6/2 1 to 5.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, 6/1 to /5 and 6/1A to --

4 JUDGE HUNT: /1A, I'm sorry. Yes, /1 to /5. Thank you


6 JUDGE HUNT: It's a very confusing system but no doubt we'll get

7 used to it.


9 Q. What I would now like to do is I would like to show you a few

10 photographs. It's all part of Exhibit P18 which was already entered into

11 evidence. And I would like the witness to look at the photo 7442, that's

12 the -- yes, that's it.

13 Is this the bridge over the Drina River in front of the prison?

14 A. Yes, this is the bridge across the Drina River. The picture was

15 taken from the left bank of the Drina, where from we can see the entire

16 penal and correctional facility, the entire KP Dom in its entire length.

17 Q. Yes, thank you. This can be taken off.

18 The next photo would be the photo number 7444. What is this?

19 A. This is the main entrance to the KP Dom used by the staff officers

20 and convicts.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you. The next photo I would like you to look at is

22 another one, it's the photo 7446. What is this? What is shown on this

23 photo, on the top photo?

24 A. When you go in through the main door into the hall, on the

25 right-hand side there is the guard on duty -- sorry, that's on the

Page 274

1 left-hand side when you enter. And through this door you entered a long

2 corridor which led to the end of the building.

3 Q. Yes. And there is a board, a black board next to the window of

4 the guard on duty. Was that board there when you were there?

5 A. Yes. There was always an advertisement board, a notice board, a

6 small one -- a small one used to be there, and we were supposed to look at

7 it every day to see where our work assignment was the next day, and these

8 assignments changed every day. The schedule changed every day.

9 Q. I just -- it's a little bit difficult to see on the photo. There

10 is a metal door on the right-hand side of the photo. Where would this

11 lead to?

12 A. This metal grill, when you open it, you enter a rather long

13 corridor where there was one guard, and at the end of that corridor, on

14 the right-hand side, was the exit into the courtyard of the KP Dom.

15 Q. Was this metal door usually closed or was it left open?

16 A. It was very often, almost always open when I worked there. Only

17 if a large number of new arrivals would come, escorted from Sarajevo,

18 Tuzla, Banja Luka, when they would enter, this door would usually be shut

19 while I conducted the search and placed the new arrivals in their rooms.

20 After that this door would be open again.

21 Q. Could an outsider coming into the KP Dom, could he simply go

22 through this entrance hall and through the metal door right into the

23 compound where the prisoners' quarters were?

24 A. No. No one uninvited or unapproved could enter, because in this

25 corridor here, there was always one guard. There were eight-hour shifts

Page 275

1 rotated among the guards.

2 Q. Thank you. Another photo, please. I would now like to show you,

3 actually, two photos belonging more or less together, and it's the photos

4 7450 and 7451. You have to look at both photos, I think, to orient

5 yourself.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, would you please show the second photo

7 as well. Yes.

8 Q. Are you able to say what is on the photos?

9 A. These stairs are in building number 1. They lead to the upper

10 floor where the guard service was. This is the staircase.

11 Q. Yes. And taking a better look at the second photo, can you say

12 what -- when you look out of the window, can you say on which room in the

13 prisoner building you look at? Is it possible for you to say?

14 A. It is my assumption that this is the window of Room 11 seen

15 through this window.

16 Q. And why do you come to this assumption?

17 A. Because building A is built on a higher level, higher terrain.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you. I would like to show you the next photo, and

19 that is the photo 7468. What is it? When you look out of this window,

20 what do you see?

21 A. I see the windows of Room 11.

22 Q. And where would this window be where you look out from? On which

23 level? On which level of the administration building?

24 A. This is on the upper floor. This window, this window here, it's

25 the upper floor, the first floor.

Page 276

1 Q. Thank you. And another -- another two photos, actually. These

2 are the photos 7469 and 7470. You explained to us just few a minutes ago

3 that the people who wanted to go into the prisoners' quarters had to go --

4 can you -- it's not very visible. Yes. Had to go through the metal door,

5 the first metal door in the entrance hall. And, please, the second

6 photo. And there was a guard checking and then they would go

7 through another door. Is that what we see on this photo?

8 A. Indeed. This is the guard desk and this is the armchair where the

9 guard who was on duty sat. And this here is that metal door.

10 Q. Yes. Thank you. And the next photo would be the photo --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think it might help us if, in the transcript,

12 we have it noted that the last door that he was pointing to is the one

13 with the arrow?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, thank

15 you.

16 Q. I have another photo, and that is the photo 7474, and there are

17 three numbers. Can you explain to us what the numbers mean, what you

18 see? Number 1, what is it?

19 A. Number 1, it's the building which accommodated the guards and

20 rehabilitators, tutors, for the convicts. Building number 2 is the

21 building A, marked A in previous photographs. Number 3 is the guards'

22 bunker, but this bunker was not there at the time when I worked there.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you. And I would like to show you now the photo

24 7479, and can you tell us what you see on this photo?

25 A. Yes. This is the compound of the inner yard of the penitentiary,

Page 277

1 and it is a view in front of Room 11.

2 Q. Yes. Thank you. And the next photo -- I would now like to show

3 you the photo 7495. Is this a typical bedroom of these room sets?

4 A. Yes, you could say so, because all the rooms were of identical

5 size in the building A, on the left-hand side. So that we had two rows of

6 beds and there was only room enough for one person to move between them.

7 Q. Yes. And now I would like to show you the photo 7511. This is

8 another photo of the yard. 11 is -- right. Can you point out to us the

9 canteen entrance?

10 A. The canteen entrance, it should be here, because the canteen is on

11 a lower ground than this. So that it is somewhere here. It is lower than

12 this here. And from what I see here, I can't say -- I don't see the

13 canteen.

14 Q. The entrance, only the staircase or how the prisoners got into the

15 entrance. I mean, the photo is a little bit -- the quality is not so good

16 on the ELMO, but do you see, for instance, in this photo you see a person

17 sitting on a staircase. Would that be the entrance to the canteen? No?

18 A. No. This is the entrance into the kitchen, this entrance here,

19 but it was only used by cooks, and this staircase here. This staircase

20 here that you can see, that one led to the entrance into the canteen. But

21 here, again, you have a few stairs, same type. This was used to lead to

22 the bakery which was at the end of this block of buildings. The bakery.

23 Q. Yes. Thank you. These are actually all the photos I wanted to

24 show you. Thank you.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Again, for the purposes of understanding this later,

Page 278

1 can it be agreed that the witness was pointing to the left-hand staircase,

2 the one closest to the arrow, and not to the one where the man is sitting,

3 as the entrance to the canteen?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. These were all

5 the photos.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Just as a matter of practicalities, when we're

7 reading the transcript, we don't usually have access to the video, so it's

8 best to be able to follow it from the transcript.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Q. Witness, when the war started, you were not in Foca; you have told

11 us that already. When did you hear about the outbreak of the war?

12 A. It was in early April when I first learnt on the ship, at my

13 workplace, from my friends.

14 Q. Did you try to reach your family in Foca?

15 A. Yes. I was trying to communicate with my family but it was all in

16 vain. I simply couldn't get through. But the next day we did manage to

17 get through to them, through the coastal station, so that I did talk to my

18 wife. But she encouraged me, she -- I asked her, "What's going on there?"

19 And she said, "Oh, this is nothing. It will be over, a couple of days,

20 perhaps, like last year with Focatrans," because there was a similar

21 incident then. However, I advised her to leave the town nonetheless,

22 because she told me that Serbs, the majority of Serbs, friends we had

23 there, and in Montenegro, that they had left. But I insisted, I was

24 telling her that she should leave, but she took care to -- somewhat

25 flippantly, she did not react.

Page 279













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English

14 and French transcripts












Page 280

1 Q. Did you speak to her on another occasion? And how much later was

2 that?

3 A. The next day again I tried to call them and to get through but we

4 could not. And four days later, when we were sailing through the Strait

5 of Gibraltar, then I managed to establish radio communication, but my wife

6 was then sobbing and I could hear detonations. Everybody in the house was

7 screaming and she asked me, "What do I do? Can you help me?" But I was

8 helpless and it was really very hard under the circumstances. All I

9 could tell her was, "Well, may God help you." And then the -- as we were

10 talking, the line was cut out of the blue, and it was then months before I

11 could hear her again.

12 Q. When did you meet her again?

13 A. It was in November or December 1992, through the International Red

14 Cross. Through a lawyer that I had hired in Trogir, I managed to learn

15 that she was in Turkey. So I went to Turkey and I found them. I believe

16 it was in December 1992.

17 Q. When did -- your wife and your family, when did they leave Foca?

18 Do you know that?

19 A. In mid-August. It was the middle of August.

20 Q. And how could they leave?

21 A. After all the harassment, on a bus which was crammed with Muslim

22 population, she and my five children left, or rather four children, I was

23 wrong, because my daughter was in Trebinje, my eldest daughter. And the

24 other four children were with her, so that they departed to Serbia to

25 Novi Pazar.

Page 281

1 Q. You told us in the beginning of your testimony that you actually

2 you had a house, and you were also the owner partly of a family house.

3 What happened to your houses?

4 A. They were not destroyed. Fire was not put to them. There are

5 people living now in them who are Serbs, with their families.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are the questions the Prosecution has.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

12 Q. I should first like to say good morning, Witness 12. My name is

13 Mihajlo Bakrac, and I'm the counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

14 I should first like to ask Witness 12 if it is true that on the

15 11th of May, 1995 you made a statement to the Prosecutor's Office?

16 A. Why, yes, it is.

17 Q. Did you make this statement of your own will, without any pressure

18 or anything?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You read it, you understood what it said?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in that statement you said that you worked for the Foca

23 penitentiary between the 1st of January, 1973 until the 15th of August,

24 1977?

25 A. Yes.

Page 282

1 Q. But yesterday you told us that you were between October 1972 until

2 July 1977. So these are different dates.

3 A. Well, it was a long time ago when I left the penitentiary, the KP

4 Dom. But I have my worker's card, my worker's booklet, and it indicates

5 when I started working there and stopped.

6 Q. So will you please tell us which dates are correct, because we

7 have four different dates?

8 JUDGE HUNT: Before you answer, Mr. Bakrac, do please remember

9 that you should pause at the end of an answer before you ask the next

10 question because the translators are still going on the translation when

11 you start the next question.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I was trying to

13 speed things up and it was because of that. But, yes, I shall take care.

14 A. From November 1972, that is when I first began to work for them.

15 Q. So now this is a third date that you give us. The statement says

16 January 1973, yesterday you say October 1972, and now --

17 A. No, October or November. I really can't remember. But if need

18 be, I can show you my job booklet.

19 Q. No, it is not necessary. But in that statement which you gave in

20 1995, you said that the penitentiary could accommodate 1.200 to 1.300

21 inmates.

22 A. Yes, that is what I said. But I still stand by what I stated.

23 Q. Which statement? Yesterday you said 1.100 to 1.200. Is it 1.100

24 to 1.200 or 1.200 to 1.300?

25 A. 1200.

Page 283

1 Q. Since we're discussing the penitentiary capacity, could you please

2 tell us whether this relates only to building number 8 or are there some

3 other cells, or rather were there some other cells somewhere?

4 A. Building number 8?

5 Q. Building number 8 --

6 A. No, excuse me, I don't understand you. Do you mean building A or

7 building B?

8 Q. Both buildings, A and B, is that where they can put 1.200

9 prisoners?

10 A. Yes, but with the mine, sir, including the mine and including

11 Brioni and include the economic enterprise, because we also had some man

12 in the mine. Some would go there or would come back, they changed. But

13 there was always a certain number of prisoners who worked up there in the

14 mine. But the capacity of the Foca KP Dom penitentiary was about 1.200

15 inmates.

16 Q. Are we talking about building 8?

17 A. Building A and building B.

18 Q. So building 8 which comprises building A and building B was 1.200

19 persons. Is your answer yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yesterday you told us that in the building 1 were the chief's

22 offices, the administrator's offices, as the second in command of the

23 penitentiary. Now could you tell us what were his powers? You tried

24 yesterday but let me help you. Was he also responsible for the guards?

25 A. No. You see, there were the guards, the rehabilitation service,

Page 284

1 and the legal department. The guards had their commander; the

2 rehabilitation department had its chief, its head; and upstairs, when we

3 had business and all these other affairs, and that was under the warden.

4 Q. So the guard's commander was in building number 1.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You also spoke about a room you called censorship.

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Did it have windows?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were the window panes transparent or not?

11 A. Well, half of those window panes were painted in white paint and

12 the rest were transparent.

13 Q. At the time when you worked there, was there an economic

14 enterprise which was called Drina?

15 A. Yes, there was.

16 Q. Did it have its own manager?

17 A. Yes, it did.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Now I should like to ask the Court

20 for just a minute because I need to find the photographs. I should like

21 to go back to four photographs which were shown by the Prosecutor. The

22 first -- could the usher please help me. Will you show the photograph

23 7451 to the witness.

24 Q. You said that the photograph -- or, rather, the arrow, the yellow

25 arrow, is above Room 11. You were asked by the Prosecutor about this when

Page 285

1 you were shown this photograph.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But when you showed the floor plan of the penitentiary, you said

4 that Room 11 was on the ground floor.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But on the photograph which you have before you, in the bottom, do

7 you see yet another window below this number 11?

8 A. Yes, that was the storage space, this sunken one, the sunken part

9 of the prison. And there was only this window which was above the

10 ground. But the rest, number 11, that was the ground floor.

11 Q. On this photograph, can you see the door leading into that

12 warehouse, which on another photograph are right next to the window?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now I should like to ask you to move on to photograph 7468. When

15 asked by the Prosecutor, you said -- you replied that this window, as you

16 can see it on this photograph, can be seen from the administrative

17 building. Is this the administrative building or building number 1?

18 A. This is building number 2.

19 Q. The administrative, the administrative building? Do you know

20 which office is this or which room is this?

21 A. I wouldn't -- no, I'm not quite sure. I can't tell you really.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Will, then, the usher please show the

23 witness Exhibit 6/3, P6/3.

24 Q. Will the witness please use the pointer and show us Room 11 as we

25 saw it on the photographs.

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Page 287

1 A. Room 11?

2 Q. As we saw it on the photographs, above the warehouse, above the

3 entrance into the warehouse.

4 A. It was here, below Room 13.

5 Q. And opposite Room 11 which you're showing now, what is the

6 building opposite?

7 A. This here is the building where the guards were accommodated.

8 Q. Does this building -- does this building fall out of line with the

9 administrative building which is next to it? Is it closer to the yard?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you show me the beginning of the administrative building?

12 A. On the left-hand side here. This is this part here, and it is

13 narrower than this part, than this building, than the building number 1.

14 Q. And in view of this ground plan, could that be the window of the

15 administrative building, I mean the window in the photograph? If you look

16 at this window, can it be the window in the administrative building? I

17 see it would be easier for the witness --

18 A. I can't really find my way around.

19 Q. But will you look at 7472 and 7473. Perhaps it would be easier

20 for you to find your way about.

21 JUDGE HUNT: While the witness is doing this, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff,

22 is there going to be some evidence from the person who took these

23 photographs so they can identify precisely the room from which they're

24 taken?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We actually had planned

Page 288

1 that the investigator who made these photos would come before this

2 witness, but unfortunately Mrs. Manas is on sick-leave and will only

3 return by the end of this week.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I understand the problem. But I'm just trying to

5 work out whether this is important or not.

6 Mr. Bakrac, are you doing this simply to find out information, or

7 is it to somehow challenge the credit of the witness?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm asking the questions because I

9 want to challenge the credibility of the part of the testimony relating to

10 the interpretation of these photographs.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, that's permissible, but I would suggest

12 to you that we'll do a lot better when we've had the photographer here to

13 tell us precisely from which window is taken. Now, that's got to be the

14 important thing to know precisely which window it was taken from, whether

15 it was in the warden's office or not or some other window from which the

16 warden is meant to have been able to see Room 11. That's the issue in the

17 case. You proceed if you wish, but may I suggest to you it's not a very

18 important point on questions of credit because the witness has very fairly

19 said he's finding it difficult to find his way through the photographs.

20 He, of course, did not take them.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was going

22 to ask another question about one more photograph and then I would be

23 through with the witness, if you allow me.

24 Will the usher kindly show the witness photograph 7449.

25 Q. You said this was the view from Room 11.

Page 289

1 A. Perhaps, but perhaps it's in front of the window, Room 11.

2 Q. Is it the lateral view or above the storage room, the warehouse?

3 A. It is above the warehouse. The warehouse is here relative to Room

4 11.

5 Q. I'm sorry. I wasn't precise enough. I wasn't precise enough. Is

6 it above the door to the warehouse, the photograph we have seen, or is it

7 on the side?

8 A. I did not understand the question.

9 Q. It would be easy if I ask the usher to show you the floor plan

10 again so you can tell us your opinion, from which side this was taken,

11 from which part of Room 11.

12 A. All of this is called Room 11.

13 Q. But from which part?

14 A. This part.

15 Q. Now please come back to the photograph. What is seen in the

16 right-hand corner?

17 A. In the right-hand corner? You mean this?

18 Q. Which part of which building is it?

19 A. This is building number 2, ending with the cinema room.

20 Q. Has it been shown here in full?

21 A. This building, yes, all of it is shown, whereas this part is the

22 prisoners' canteen where they could buy small stuff like cosmetics, tinned

23 food, et cetera, and they paid with coupons instead of money. That was

24 the currency there.

25 Q. Thank you very much. I have no more questions about photographs.

Page 290

1 Thank you.

2 Just another two questions. You spoke also about the censorship

3 room, and you also mentioned a room for intimate dates, if we can call

4 them that. Did they have transparent windows?

5 A. Both windows were painted white. This entire row of windows, both

6 the windows facing the courtyard, both these windows were painted white,

7 so passers-by could not see inside. Those were double-paned windows.

8 Q. My last question: Your entire testimony about the KP Dom, is it

9 true that that is your memory of KP Dom from 1977 when you left it?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No more questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. You may leave now, sir.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, for the next witness, some

19 security measures have been granted that makes it necessary to shield the

20 witness from the public, so that he also has image alteration. That needs

21 to be fixed first before the witness enters the room.

22 JUDGE HUNT: The usher has gone to get the witness. Perhaps if

23 you could get somebody to lower the blinds momentarily whilst the witness

24 is being brought in, and somebody better tell the usher to bring the

25 screens in. But the first thing is to bring the blinds down, I would

Page 291

1 suggest.

2 Mr. Bakrac, will you have any problem seeing the witness with the

3 screens like that?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I'll do my best.

5 JUDGE HUNT: How about you, Ms. Kuo? Can you see?

6 MS. KUO: Yes, it's fine with me, Your Honour.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Please take the solemn declaration.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, sir. We can have the blinds up again.

14 Thank you.

15 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

18 Q. Good morning, Witness.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. With the help of the -- with the help of the usher I would like to

21 show you a name sheet because you had requested a pseudonym and this was

22 granted, and therefore we have to avoid to mention your name. Please.

23 Witness, when you look at the sheet in front of you, there is the

24 number 139 on it, and that is the number you have got in this case. And

25 underneath there is a name. Is that your name?

Page 292

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that also your nickname?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is there also your birth date?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But the witness would need this sheet, but

8 first it has to be entered into evidence.

9 JUDGE HUNT: It will be Exhibit P395 and it will be under seal.


11 Q. Where were you born, Witness?

12 A. In Foca.

13 JUDGE HUNT: So the usher can do the rather important task of

14 opening the blinds so we're back in public, perhaps next time can we have

15 two copies of the document, one for the witness and one for the Registry.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have already provided the copies to

17 everybody.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't know why it had to be handed in

19 formally if we've been given it informally. It will save a lot of time if

20 we can just have it marked and we can get on with the job.


22 Q. What is your ethnicity?

23 A. Muslim. I'm a Muslim.

24 Q. Are you married?

25 A. Yes.

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Page 294

1 Q. Do you have children?

2 A. I have three children.

3 Q. Where did you live before the war?

4 A. Before the war I lived in Foca.

5 Q. And in which neighbourhood did you live?

6 A. It was called Pod Masala.

7 Q. Was this a Muslim neighbourhood or was it mixed?

8 A. It was mixed.

9 Q. And where was it situated within Foca?

10 A. It was close to the building of the municipal -- municipality.

11 Q. Did you during the war also stay at your parents' house?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And where was your parents' house, in which part of the town?

14 A. My parents' house was in Donje Polje.

15 Q. And is this also a mixed neighbourhood or is it a Muslim

16 neighbourhood?

17 A. It was mostly Muslim-populated.

18 Q. What was your profession before the war?

19 A. I worked in the KP Dom as a policeman.

20 Q. In which time did you work there? From when onwards?

21 A. I started on the 1st of October, 1979 and I worked until the

22 beginning of the war.

23 Q. And what kind of an institution was KP Dom?

24 A. The KP Dom was a prison for convicted persons.

25 Q. Was it for male convicts only or both genders?

Page 295

1 A. No. That was only a penitentiary for men.

2 Q. What about female convicts? Where were they?

3 A. Women had a separate KP Dom, which was about three kilometres away

4 from the male KP Dom.

5 Q. And where was it, in which part of the town? Does it have a name?

6 A. Yes, it does. The female prison, the female KP Dom, was in

7 Velecevo.

8 Q. Was this prison complex in Velecevo, was it under the command of

9 the KP Dom, or was it totally different and separated?

10 A. No. It was a part of the KP Dom.

11 Q. So does that mean that the chief of the KP Dom, the warden of the

12 KP Dom, was at the same time also the head of the female prison in

13 Velecevo?

14 A. Yes, he was warden of both prisons.

15 Q. Were there also other facilities -- did also other facilities

16 belong to KP Dom?

17 A. Yes, there were. I can enumerate them.

18 Q. Yes, please.

19 A. There was the economic enterprise at Brioni; there was -- there

20 were metalworks nearby the male prison; there was a fish farm in Jelec;

21 and we had works in Sarajevo.

22 Q. In 1992, how many prisoners were serving their sentence in the KP

23 Dom; do you recall that?

24 A. I remember, but there were not many. About 200.

25 Q. And you mentioned the female prison. Do you remember how many

Page 296

1 convicts were there in 1992?

2 A. There were about 40 women, perhaps.

3 Q. And on these other facilities that you mentioned, the prison farm

4 and the fish pond, were there also housing facilities for prisoners there?

5 A. Yes, there were. Those who worked in the enterprise, they also

6 lodged there and spent their entire time there, and that is also true of

7 the fish pond in Jelec.

8 Q. And how many were housed at Brioni, the farm?

9 A. At Brioni, on the farm, there always worked 60 to 80 prisoners.

10 Q. And at the fish pond in Jelec?

11 A. There was a smaller problem of inmates there. About six to eight,

12 I think.

13 Q. Did the KP Dom have facilities in Miljevina?

14 A. No, not in 1992.

15 Q. Did they have before 1992 facilities in Miljevina?

16 A. They had facilities in Miljevina but that was one department which

17 worked at the mine. But when I started working, or perhaps a year or two

18 later, this section was closed.

19 Q. What did you do exactly in KP Dom? You said you were a

20 policeman. Does that mean you were a guard?

21 A. Yes, I was a guard and I worked in the section in charge of visits

22 to prisoners.

23 Q. Were you under the supervision of the Foca police, or who was your

24 supervising office?

25 A. No. We were subordinated to the Department of the Administration

Page 297

1 of the Ministry of Justice, and the police was under the Ministry of

2 Internal Affairs.

3 Q. You have already mentioned that you worked -- you had dealings

4 with visitors. What did your work at this working post include?

5 A. My job was to admit a visitor, establish a contact between the

6 visitor and the inmate they came to visit.

7 Q. In April 1992, were you still working in KP Dom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was the director of the prison at that time?

10 A. The director or the warden of the prison was Radojica Tesovic.

11 Q. Was he a Serb?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What were his duties and responsibilities?

14 A. He was number 1 man, and it was his job to manage the entire

15 prison. In fact, both prisons. That job included pretty large

16 responsibilities. He was the most important man there.

17 Q. Who was his deputy at that time?

18 A. His deputy at the time was Alija Berberkic.

19 Q. And what ethnicity did Mr. Berberkic have?

20 A. He was a Muslim.

21 Q. What were his duties and responsibilities?

22 A. His responsibilities as deputy warden or deputy director were also

23 considerable.

24 Q. Did he have a particular duty that he had all the time, even if

25 the warden was there? So something he just was in charge of.

Page 298

1 A. He probably did but I don't know which they were.

2 Q. Who was the chief of the guards before the war?

3 A. Chief of the guards was Mitar Rasevic.

4 Q. How many guards were there in KP Dom altogether?

5 A. There were about 100 guards.

6 Q. And these guards, did they work in shifts?

7 A. Yes, they did take shifts.

8 Q. How many shifts were there?

9 A. There were four shifts.

10 Q. Can you tell us the working hours of these shifts?

11 A. From 0600 to 1400, from 1400 to 2200, and from 2200 to 0600. And

12 there were two days off.

13 Q. You mentioned four shifts. Does that mean the fourth shift was

14 the one that was off duty?

15 A. Yes, because guards took shifts and one shift was always resting.

16 That was the only feasible way to work.

17 Q. What was the chain of command in the prison? For instance, to

18 whom did you report, and then go up the chain of command.

19 A. Among the guards, there was the senior officer or the guard on

20 duty; then above him was the supervisor; and above the supervisor there

21 was the guards' commander.

22 Q. Yes. And the guards' commander reported to whom; do you know

23 that?

24 A. To the warden.

25 Q. Who belonged to the prison management? Who were the top leaders

Page 299

1 in the prison? You have already mentioned the warden, you have mentioned

2 the deputy, you have mentioned the chief of guards. Were there any other

3 chiefs in the prison?

4 A. Yes. That was the collective, the staff, the man -- it consisted

5 of the manager, the deputy, the chief of the service for rehabilitation,

6 the guards' commander, and there was also the head of the economic unit.

7 Q. You have mentioned the various factories or facilities. Did they

8 also have heads? Let's say the head of the factory, head of the farm,

9 head of the fish pond, was something like this also in the hierarchy?

10 A. Each section had its own head or chief, and above them all was the

11 head of the economic department.

12 Q. The head of the economic department, what were his duties and

13 responsibilities; do you know that?

14 A. Everything that related to economic activity was his duty and

15 responsibility. He had no say in other activities, such as rehabilitation

16 or security.

17 Q. And the chief of the education section, what were his

18 responsibilities and duties?

19 A. His main responsibility was the rehabilitation of the convicted

20 persons.

21 Q. Do you know if the economic section made profit?

22 A. Yes, it did.

23 Q. And were the prisoners paid who worked in these facilities?

24 A. They were paid but very little, from one-third to one-fifth of a

25 salary of a civilian.

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Page 301

1 Q. You have already mentioned the chain of command. And can you tell

2 us also how the reporting structure functioned? Did you have daily

3 briefings?

4 A. No, we, the guards, did not have meetings or briefings. We had

5 our own timetable which was drawn up by our chief, together with his

6 deputies and supervisors.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I see that it is 11.00.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will resume again at 11.30. We will

9 adjourned.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Before you proceed, there's a housekeeping problem

13 which arises out of the Prosecutor's -- not the Prosecution, but the

14 Prosecutor's plan that we should be trying to run two trials at the same

15 time.

16 The trial that we're finishing up, the Kunarac trial, has run into

17 a number of problems, and it is going to be necessary to reschedule the

18 closing arguments in that case to the week of the 20th of November. Now,

19 at the present time they are listed for the week of the 13th of November,

20 and this trial was going to be stood down to enable it to do so.

21 The simplest course, if there had been no problems, was to swap

22 the two weeks so that the week of the 13th we continued with this trial,

23 and scheduled Kunarac to the week of the 20th. But I understand that

24 there's a problem from the point of view of counsel for the accused,

25 having already moved their commitments in their homeland once at the

Page 302

1 behest of the Tribunal, they have some trouble in doing it again. That is

2 something which the Trial Chamber very readily understands.

3 It will mean, of course, that if we cannot proceed during this

4 week of the -- this week of the 13th of November with this trial, after

5 Thursday, the 9th of November, the only time that we will have for it

6 would be, perhaps, Thursday, the 23rd of November, and Monday and Tuesday,

7 the 27th and 28th.

8 Now, it may be that it is going to be more trouble than it's worth

9 for the Defence counsel to come back for just three days. I'd like them

10 to give some consideration to it, and perhaps after lunch let us know what

11 they want to do about it.

12 From the Prosecution's point of view, we have not asked you yet

13 but we were going to ask you whether there would be any problems with

14 bringing witnesses along for this trial in the week of the 13th, but it

15 looks like it will be impossible for the case to proceed during the course

16 of that week.

17 Mr. Bakrac, would you consult your colleague and perhaps tell us

18 after the luncheon adjournment what your situation is. I don't want to

19 put pressure on you in any way, but you understand that the difficulties

20 we face in the other trial are apparently insurmountable, and we do have

21 to move that one into the week of the 20th of November. Do you want to

22 say anything at this stage?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do understand

24 the difficulties that have arisen, but at home we have some family

25 business which really cannot be postponed. We've already done so, that

Page 303

1 is, moved from one week to another, and really we do not -- we wish to use

2 the time available as best we can and we really want to speed matters up.

3 But I'm afraid we shall not be able to change it.

4 As for the 23rd, 24th, or the 26th and 27th, at that time the

5 Defence counsel can come and you will decide whether it will serve its

6 purpose. As far as we are concerned, yes, we could be present here at

7 that time, so that we have no objection to those three days. But it will

8 be up to you to decide whether it will suit the purposes of the Tribunal

9 best.

10 JUDGE HUNT: We understand your problems completely. If you think

11 that it's worth us trying to sit on the Thursday, the 23rd, and Monday,

12 the 27th, and Tuesday, the 28th, then we will certain do so, subject to

13 any problems which the Prosecution may have in relation to its witnesses.

14 I don't want you to have to resolve it now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15 After lunch will do. If you could let us have your answer then.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We would have to find out from the

17 witnesses. If one of those who was planned for this particular week, if

18 we can move these people further down.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, You understand what the problem is. You've

20 probably been watching the paper war coming in and there's no way we

21 can proceed during that week we thought we could proceed with Kunarac. So

22 if you could let us know after lunch what your position is about

23 witnesses.


25 JUDGE HUNT: We were going to sit on the 27th and the 28th

Page 304

1 anyway. It's only a question of whether you can bring some witnesses in

2 for the 23rd of November.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, It's only this particular day that we

4 have to check, but I'm quite confident we can find one witness who is

5 available on that day.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then we'll proceed on the basis that we will

7 hear this case again on the 23rd of November. If there's any problem, we

8 can always change it.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: We have to get some Scheduling Orders out.


12 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry to interrupt the proceedings to deal with

13 something quite different.

14 You can proceed now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, with this witness.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, before the break, you have told us that you, the guards,

17 did not have daily briefings. What about the management? Do you know if

18 they had daily briefings or briefings at all?

19 A. Yes, that board met daily.

20 Q. When you say "board," who would that be?

21 A. Warden, deputy warden, administrator, head for the rehabilitation,

22 head of the guards, and head of the economic department.

23 Q. Where did they meet for these daily briefings?

24 A. In warden's office.

25 Q. Was it always at the same time of the day? And if so, when?

Page 305

1 A. It was every morning. No, the hour was not set but it was always

2 in the morning.

3 Q. If an incident had occurred during a guard's duty, let's say your

4 own duty, what did you do? Did you write a report about it?

5 A. Yes. One was duty-bound to write a report.

6 Q. And did you have a particular book or whatever for filing these

7 reports?

8 A. Yes, there was a book, a register at every workplace, and one

9 would enter there all of the information about anything that happened

10 during a shift.

11 Q. And when would this book be checked by superior staff?

12 A. They could check it at all times. They could come to whatever, a

13 workplace, round the clock and check the information in the register.

14 Q. And did they do that?

15 A. Well, it depended on whether they needed it or not. Sometimes

16 they did; sometimes they did not.

17 Q. And when the book -- when the book was full, what happened to the

18 book?

19 A. It would end up with the chief of the guards and then it would be

20 put in the archive. It was left in the archive.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you. When did the war in Foca break out?

22 A. In Foca it broke out on the 8th of April, 1992.

23 Q. On that day, were you in the prison?

24 A. Yes. That morning I came to work in the prison.

25 Q. How many prisoners were in the prison on that day?

Page 306

1 A. About 100.

2 Q. And what was the ethnicity of these 100 prisoners?

3 A. They were Muslims for the most part.

4 Q. Why that?

5 A. Well, a day or two before that, there had been an escape, because

6 other prisoners escaped across -- over the wall, and those were, by and

7 large, prisoners of Serb ethnicity.

8 Q. How many prisoners did escape?

9 A. I think it was also about 100.

10 Q. Couldn't the guard prevent the escape?

11 A. Yes, they could, but they did not, following the warden's orders,

12 because the warden allowed the convicts to escape.

13 Q. What do you mean by that, he allowed the convicts to escape?

14 A. Why, he could order to prevent the escape, but he failed to do

15 so. And when the guard commander asked him what to do when that happened,

16 he said not to open fire and not to prevent the escape.

17 Q. You said they climbed the walls. How high were the walls?

18 A. Well, they were 4, 5 metres.

19 Q. Could these prisoners actually escape, or were they captured

20 shortly after?

21 A. Well, after they escaped, they climbed up a hill near the

22 penitentiary, and on that hillock there was a village. And whether they

23 were captured there or not, I don't know. But I know that there were some

24 Muslim prisoners amongst them who were captured and brought back to the

25 penitentiary.

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Page 308

1 Q. This village you just mentioned above KP Dom, what ethnicities

2 were the inhabitants of this village?

3 A. Yes. They were Serbs, and most of them had -- were called

4 Ivanovic. Their surname was Ivanovic.

5 Q. On 8 April 1992, were you given any specific task to perform?

6 A. Yes. That morning there was general confusion. The plan was not

7 followed as under regular conditions, and there were people who had

8 already been 24 hours on duty, because there was a shortage of people. So

9 that shifts did not change regularly. So when I came to work that

10 morning, on the 8th of April, the commander told me -- ordered me to go

11 and replace the colleague who was in the female, in the women's prison at

12 Velecevo.

13 Q. And could you reach Velecevo?

14 A. No. I made it in an official car as far as the health centre, but

15 then the gunfire started from above, from that hill above the health

16 centre. The fire was opened and we had to turn the car around and go back

17 to the penitentiary, to the KP Dom.

18 Q. What is the name of the hill you just mentioned?

19 A. I don't really know what it's called. It is an elevation, a hill,

20 a mount above the health centre.

21 Q. And who -- do you know which army was -- or who was shooting from

22 this point? Was it the Serbs, the Muslims, or even someone else?

23 A. Yes. They were Serbs.

24 Q. How do you know that?

25 A. Because Serbs constituted the majority population there, in those

Page 309

1 houses on that -- on that hillock. There were mostly Serbs who lived

2 there.

3 Q. When was your last working day at KP Dom?

4 A. I worked in the KP Dom for another three or four days. I don't

5 remember exactly, but I do believe it was the 12th of April.

6 Q. What did you do in these four days in the KP Dom?

7 A. We stood guard there, both over the convicts and the facilities;

8 that is, our task was to stand guard around the KP Dom.

9 Q. Was there fighting around the KP Dom?

10 A. Well, yes, around the KP Dom but not in it.

11 Q. Those guards in KP Dom or the staff in KP Dom at that time, was it

12 mixed as ethnicity?

13 A. Yes. We were roughly 50/50, that is, half Muslims, half Serbs.

14 Q. Even in these days between the 8th and the 12th of April?

15 A. Yes, yes, then.

16 Q. Were any Serb fighters or Muslim fighters in the war in Foca, were

17 any of them detained in the KP Dom in these days from the 8th to the 12th?

18 A. No. No, not in the KP Dom. Nobody was brought under custody or

19 detained. It was only those convicts who were -- who had already been

20 there before, that is, convicts who were serving their terms, and we, the

21 officers of the penitentiary.

22 Q. What happened on the 12th of April that put a stop to your work

23 there?

24 A. On the 12th of April, the convicts were evacuated in the direction

25 of Montenegro. It was, again, upon the orders of Warden Tesovic. They

Page 310

1 managed to reach an understanding with the Muslims in Donje Polje to bring

2 the convicts out and have them escorted by Serb guards so they could go

3 towards Velecevo, and then on to Montenegro.

4 Q. You said they were escorted by Serb guards. Why Serb guards?

5 A. Yes, it was Serb guards who escorted them because they had to go

6 to a part of the town which was controlled by Serbs.

7 Q. And what was the name of this part of the town?

8 A. It was between the centre of the town, in the direction of

9 Velecevo. That whole area was under the Serb control.

10 Q. Where did the convicts actually end up after their transfer?

11 A. Well, after many trials and tribulations, they were to move

12 through Montenegro and they were to be put in a penitentiary near Spuz

13 near Podgorica. But they would not take them in there. So they again

14 crossed Montenegro and Serbia, were taken up to Zvornik, and in Zvornik

15 they were turned over to Muslims who had come from Tuzla. And they, at

16 long last, they ended up in the prison in Tuzla.

17 Q. What did you do after the prisoners had been taken away?

18 A. After the convicts were taken away, only the guards and officers

19 stayed behind, and we simply dispersed. We went home. I went to Donje

20 Polje, to my parents' home.

21 Q. And how long did you stay at your parents' home?

22 A. Why, I stayed there for two or three days. I didn't go anywhere.

23 Q. During these three days, did fighting take place?

24 A. Yes, there was fighting but not in that particular area where I

25 was.

Page 311

1 Q. Did you ever join these fighters?

2 A. No, even though I had my weapon. But I did not go to fight.

3 Q. Did you in these three days go to the KP Dom, for instance? Were

4 you inside KP Dom during these three days?

5 A. Yes, we went back to the KP Dom, and with another ten men or so, I

6 went back -- we went back to the KP Dom.

7 Q. And what did you do there?

8 A. Nothing, I did nothing. I just brought those men there, because

9 when I had gone back home, they asked me, "Is there anybody left in the KP

10 Dom?" and I said, "No, nobody has stayed there." And then they asked me,

11 "Do you feel like going back?" and I said, "Well, why not?" because, of

12 course, Serbs might get into, might enter the KP Dom because they were not

13 far from it. They were not far from the penitentiary. They were right

14 above it.

15 Q. During these three days, were detainees -- were Serb fighters, for

16 instance, or Serb civilians detained in KP Dom?

17 A. No, not during those three days. But I wasn't there during those

18 three days. I just went there and went back home that same day. But

19 while I was there, nobody was detained.

20 Q. Do you know if ever in April 1992 Serbs were detained in KP Dom?

21 A. Not as far as I know.

22 Q. You mentioned that there was no fighting in the area where you

23 were. But was there any fighting at all in these days, let's say,

24 mid-April?

25 A. Yes, there was fighting. From the surrounding hills, this part of

Page 312

1 the town was shelled constantly. They were using mortars. And where the

2 lines, where the demarcation lines were formed, there was fighting there

3 too.

4 Q. Where was the demarcation line within town?

5 A. Within town. Well, one of them was -- passed by the health

6 centre, down to the bridge and by the Cehotina, to the confluence of the

7 rivers, that is, to the place where the Cehotina flows into the Drina.

8 Q. Were houses on this separation line or confrontation line

9 destroyed during the fighting?

10 A. As far as I know, there were a few houses which were destroyed.

11 Q. Do you know if these -- if there were Serb houses among those?

12 A. Yes, there were Serb houses too.

13 Q. Do you know if the house of the accused Krnojelac was in this

14 area?

15 A. It was. Yes, his house was in the area.

16 Q. And was it destroyed or damaged?

17 A. I don't know that. I didn't go there. I don't know if it was

18 damaged.

19 Q. The soldiers on the Serb side, were they local TO people, or were

20 there soldiers from other areas of the former Yugoslavia there as well?

21 A. There were all sorts of them; that is, there were people who came

22 from outside and there were some locals.

23 Q. And could you be more specific about the people from outside?

24 Would you know who they were and to which units they belonged?

25 A. Well, they were from Montenegro and from Yugoslavia. There were

Page 313

1 Arkan's men; there were the so-called White Eagles. There were all sorts

2 of units. I really don't know them all.

3 Q. How do you know this? Did you actually see it -- see them fight

4 or did you hear it?

5 A. No, I heard. I could not see them because I could not fight, but

6 I heard it from those who could go to fight and who came now and then and

7 who would say that there were Montenegrins and Serbs and the locals too.

8 Q. When did the Muslims withdraw from Foca?

9 A. As far as I know, it was sometime around the 15th, maybe the 16th

10 of April.

11 Q. When did you leave Donje Polje?

12 A. I stayed in Donje Polje for two or three days maybe, and then I

13 went -- it was one day, and a ceasefire agreement was reached to stop the

14 fighting, so that -- so that the civilians could be pulled out, both Serbs

15 and Muslims, that is, those from Donje Polje and Muslims from the centre

16 and Gornja Polje. And it was that day when I went to Pod Masala, because

17 that's where my family was.

18 Q. What did you do with your weapon? Did you take it with you?

19 A. No, I dared not take it with me. I just left it in my parents'

20 house.

21 Q. What happened to your parents' house? Was it destroyed at a point

22 in time?

23 A. My parents' house was burned down only in September 1992.

24 Q. Was it deliberately set on fire?

25 A. Yes, certainly.

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Page 315

1 Q. And how did you learn about it? Did you see it burn or did you

2 see it being damaged?

3 A. Yes. One night I saw the flames from the KP Dom. I didn't know

4 exactly that it was our house. But I asked the guards the next day and

5 they confirmed.

6 Q. What happened to the Donje Polje neighbourhood as such?

7 A. For the most part, the houses were damaged, torched, and before

8 being torched they were looted.

9 Q. And how do you know that?

10 A. I know because something was burning every day. Every day there

11 was a house burning. Those were very visible flames, visible even from

12 where I was in Pod Masala.

13 Q. At that time when you saw these houses burning, was there

14 fighting?

15 A. No. For the most part, the houses were torched later when I was

16 back in KP Dom. And in that period when I was in Pod Masala, there was no

17 fighting then. By that time the Muslims had left, and the Serbs had no

18 one to fight in Foca.

19 Q. What happened to -- were there any other particular Muslim

20 neighbourhoods in Foca? Do you know any?

21 A. Yes, there were. Cohodar Mahala, for instance, was populated

22 mostly by Muslims. In the area of Aladza, there were a lot of Muslims

23 too. In Sukovac, on the other side, there were a lot of Muslims as well.

24 Q. What happened to these neighbourhoods?

25 A. They were destroyed too, for the most part.

Page 316

1 Q. What happened to the mosques?

2 A. Every mosque, down to the last one, was destroyed by explosive,

3 blown up.

4 Q. You said that the fighting stopped after five or six days. What

5 did you do? Why did you not go back to work?

6 A. I did not go back to work because I was not allowed to move

7 around.

8 Q. Who told you not to move around?

9 A. The Serbs who were in my street.

10 Q. You mean your Serb neighbours?

11 A. There were neighbours among them, but there were other people too

12 whom I knew, whom I had seen in the town.

13 Q. These people who told you -- these Serbs who told you not to move

14 around, did they tell you that in an official capacity? Was it soldiers

15 who told you?

16 A. They were all armed, they were all in camouflage uniforms, and I

17 took them very seriously, indeed.

18 Q. What about your family members? Did they return to work and did

19 they move around freely?

20 A. No. My wife did not work even before that, and she was able to

21 move -- to go, for instance, to the shops. Women were allowed to move but

22 they were allowed to do their shopping nearby. That much they could do.

23 Q. And the men? The men. You have told us that you were not

24 allowed. What about the other men?

25 A. The same with them. Muslim men were not allowed free movement

Page 317

1 around the town.

2 Q. What about the Serb male population? Could they move around?

3 A. Yes, they moved around freely.

4 Q. While you were at home, was your home ever searched?

5 A. They came several times and searched my house.

6 Q. And whom do you mean by "they"?

7 A. I mean Serbian soldiers.

8 Q. What were they looking for?

9 A. They were looking for weapons, money, jewelry.

10 Q. Were the valuables taken away from you?

11 A. They did not take anything from me.

12 Q. And from anyone else?

13 A. Yes. I later heard from those who were detained that at their

14 places things were taken away, such as money and jewelry, gold.

15 Q. When were you arrested?

16 A. I was arrested on the 20th of May, 1992.

17 Q. Do you recall what time of the day it was?

18 A. Early in the morning. It was perhaps between 9.00 and 9.30.

19 Q. And where were you arrested?

20 A. At home.

21 Q. Who arrested you?

22 A. I was arrested by Serbs from Foca who introduced themselves as the

23 military police.

24 Q. Did they have a particular uniform?

25 A. Yes. They were all dressed in camouflage uniforms.

Page 318

1 Q. You said they were locals. Did you know them?

2 A. Yes, I knew most of them.

3 Q. Can you tell us who arrested you?

4 A. Yes, I can. One of them was Zoran Vukovic. There was Slavica

5 Jojic. There was Sasa. There was a man named Filipovic, the elder of the

6 brothers, and others.

7 Q. Did they have an arrest warrant?

8 A. No, no. They just came to the door. They told me to get ready

9 and follow them.

10 Q. Did they have anything in writing with them?

11 A. They had a piece of paper with some names on it written by hand,

12 and they kept circling the names. There were names with circles around

13 them and there were other names without the circles.

14 Q. Could you see how many names were on the list?

15 A. Perhaps 15 or 16 names. Not more.

16 Q. Did you see your own name on the list?

17 A. No, no. There was just my nickname.

18 Q. Did the soldiers tell you why you were arrested?

19 A. No, they didn't say anything at all. They just told me to get

20 ready and come with them.

21 Q. Did you ever find out what the charges against you were?

22 A. No. Nobody ever told me why I was arrested and why I was brought

23 to the KP Dom.

24 Q. Were you the only person arrested on this occasion?

25 A. No. I think there were five of us that morning from the same

Page 319

1 street, and we were all brought to the KP Dom.

2 Q. Can you tell us the names of these other people that were

3 arrested?

4 A. Myself, Dzevad Karabegovic, Ekrem Zekovic. There was Said, whose

5 last name I don't remember, and there was a man named Krso. I can't

6 remember his name.

7 Q. Were they all Muslims?

8 A. Yes, they were all Muslims.

9 Q. Were they civilians?

10 A. They were all civilians.

11 Q. Were you a civilian?

12 A. Yes, I was a civilian too.

13 Q. Was there anything particular about you and these other four men

14 that you had in common that might have been a reason for arresting you?

15 A. The only thing we had in common was being Muslim.

16 Q. Where were you taken?

17 A. They took us to the KP Dom.

18 Q. And how long did you stay in KP Dom?

19 A. Until the 6th of October, 1994.

20 Q. And what about the other men who were arrested with you? How long

21 did they stay, and what happened to them?

22 A. Ekrem Zekovic remained as long as I did. Said was exchanged. I

23 saw him sometime after the war; he was exchanged earlier. And Krso and

24 Karabegovic are missing.

25 Q. When you arrived at KP Dom, who received you?

Page 320

1 A. There was Slavko Koroman, a guard at the entrance. He used to be

2 the supervisor of the guards.

3 Q. And he was a Serb?

4 A. Yes, he was a Serb.

5 Q. When you arrived in KP Dom, were you registered?

6 A. No, no. They didn't do anything about registration.

7 Q. Were you searched?

8 A. Yes, they did search us.

9 Q. Were things taken away from you?

10 A. Nothing was taken from me or from the others, as far as I know.

11 Q. How did your former colleague, Koroman, behave towards you?

12 A. Well, he was taken aback when he saw me. He asked me how things

13 were, and he told me, "How come they brought you here? You're out of

14 place here. You shouldn't be here." I saw that he was surprised.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 put to the witness now the drawings that we just received this morning,

17 and first of all the drawing number 6/1.

18 Q. Witness, this is a floor plan of the first floor of the

19 administration building. Could you show us --

20 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think that's right. It's the ground floor.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes, sorry, yes. Ground floor.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We're not in America.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Ground floor, yes.


25 Q. Are you able to orient yourself in this drawing? It's the ground

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Page 322

1 floor of the administration building. Can you show us -- can you show us

2 where you were received? With the pointer, please. You have to point on

3 the ELMO.

4 A. I entered here, that is, the entrance to the KP Dom.

5 Q. And where were you taken?

6 A. Straight on is the entrance to the room which divides the

7 courtyard from the administrative building, and there were gates there

8 which lead to the courtyard, to the compound.

9 Q. And do you recall in which room you were taken?

10 A. They took me through the compound to the building number 2, Room

11 18.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, can we now please

13 show the floor plan 6/3 to the witness.

14 Q. Witness, that is, according to the person who made this sketch,

15 the first floor of the prisoners' quarters, and you see there the number

16 18. Would that be correct?

17 JUDGE HUNT: I think you could lead him through this because

18 there was absolutely no dispute about this when the document was tendered

19 with the previous witness.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: If it is not disputed, then I don't think I

21 have to repeat it. Because I wasn't really sure if there would be any

22 dispute afterwards; therefore, I put it to him. But if there is not, we

23 would not have to go back to this.

24 JUDGE HUNT: The only matter about these plans that was raised was

25 the identity of the rooms on the top floor in building B, which there's no

Page 323

1 dispute about. There's just no evidence about it. And if it wasn't

2 disputed before, I think you can proceed upon the assumption that it's not

3 in dispute.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But I have forgotten one matter.

5 Q. Would you please go back to the first drawing, that is, 6/1.

6 Witness, if you look at this ground floor of the administration building,

7 you explained to us in the beginning that you were the person in charge of

8 the visitors' section. Could you point out to us the visitors' section in

9 this drawing?

10 A. This is the office where I used to work together with my

11 colleague, the first room -- the two rooms next to it are small two rooms

12 where visits took place, intimate visits by wives, et cetera. And the

13 room next to that was a large one. It was a room for family visits.

14 Q. And these rooms, did they have windows facing the yard?

15 A. There are windows facing the courtyard.

16 Q. And from Room 18 where you were detained, were you able to look

17 through these windows into the visitor rooms?

18 A. The windows of these rooms were visible.

19 Q. Yes, the windows as such. But could you look through the windows

20 into the room, the rooms behind?

21 A. No, no, because they were non-transparent. They were painted

22 over.

23 Q. And there's another question I have in relation to the ground

24 floor of the administration building. Did you have a room in the

25 administration building where you put prisoners who were aggressive or

Page 324

1 drunk?

2 A. Yes, we had a room for such purposes. It was located in the left

3 building. This is a very nice drawing. And the room of the guard on

4 duty, then comes the cloakroom, and the room next to that is precisely the

5 one we're talking about.

6 Q. That is, then, the third room seen from the left, from the end of

7 the building? When you count from the end of the building, would it be

8 the third room or the second room? I'm not really sure what you mean

9 now. Go from the end of the building and then count.

10 A. Starting from the entrance.

11 Q. Yes, the entrance here.

12 A. We see the staircase leading to the room of the guard on duty.

13 Behind that is the entrance to the corridor which leads to the end of the

14 building. From that corridor you can -- from that corridor, the first one

15 is the room of the guard on duty; the second room is the cloakroom, the

16 changing rooms for the guards; and the third one on the left is the one

17 you asked about, where we kept prisoners when they came back from the

18 weekend or from the town intoxicated, and they were kept there until

19 they sobered up.

20 Q. And this room faced the street, the windows of this room?

21 A. Yes, the windows faced the street. But when this room was made,

22 because it hadn't existed always - I don't remember exactly when it was

23 set up, it was done four or five years before the war - that particular

24 window was closed.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, just one moment. We're running

Page 325

1 into the same problem that we had before. You see, at the time the

2 pointer is moving, we're behind with the translation. Can we agree that

3 it was the third room from the left where the prisoners were put if they

4 were unruly or drunk when they returned from weekend leave?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's what I wanted to -- actually,

6 that's why I wanted to point from the left. It's easier to see.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but, I'm sorry, using a pointer and giving a

8 description doesn't help us very much because the pointer does not

9 coincide with the translation. Do you know what the answer to it is?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it is yes.

11 JUDGE HUNT: That it is the third one from the left.


13 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you might just ask him specifically about

14 that. Is it the third one from the left facing the street on this plan?


16 Q. Is it, when you look onto the floor plan, is it the third room

17 from the left, from the left, from the end of the building, from the left,

18 the third room facing the street?

19 A. Yes, that is the third room.

20 Q. And was anything in the room to affix an aggressive prisoner?

21 A. There was no furniture. It was a bare room, just the four walls.

22 The door was on one side, the floor was concrete, and on the floor there

23 were two metal rings to tie these people down to.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you. I would like to show you now a few photos just

25 to give also the Court an image of what things looked like. The photo

Page 326

1 is, again, Exhibit 18, and it's now photo 7445. That's this one.

2 Is this the corridor with your office and the visitors' rooms?

3 A. Yes. It leads from the entrance to the KP Dom, through the

4 corridor on the right-hand side. This door is the door to the office

5 where I worked.

6 Q. And the warden, when he wanted to go to his office, did he have to

7 pass there?

8 A. Yes, he had to pass by this.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you. And now I would like to show you the photo

10 7477. This is 77. Is this the view -- is this the view the detainees in

11 Room 16 or 18 would have onto this section, these visitors' rooms and the

12 metal door?

13 A. Yes. That is the gate through which you came into the compound,

14 that is the window of my former office, and those are the windows of those

15 two small visit rooms.

16 Q. Yes. And what would you think is the distance between the Rooms

17 16 or 18 in that prisoners' building and these windows?

18 A. I couldn't say exactly. But in a straight line, 30, 40 metres.

19 Not more.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you. And just a last photo, and that's the photo

21 7512. Number 1 and number 2, these are the prisoners' quarters, aren't

22 they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you point out to us Room 18 where you were in?

25 A. Those are the rooms of Room 18.

Page 327

1 Q. Yes. Thank you. That's ...

2 You have mentioned that Room 18, that's actually a set of rooms.

3 What were the sanitary facilities you had in the Room 18?

4 A. Yes. All those rooms had all the necessary facilities designed

5 for the number of people who were staying in such rooms, and that

6 included, of course, the sanitary facilities.

7 Q. And did you have showers in these rooms?

8 A. No, not showers. There were only wash basins.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have ...

10 Q. Where were the isolation cells?

11 A. Opposite Room 16, that is, in the second building, in its right

12 wing, on the ground floor.

13 Q. Yes. And how many isolation cells were there?

14 A. There were so-called solitary confinement cells, and I think there

15 were six of them; three on each side.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I will show these photos later on because I

17 got a little bit confused about which photo is what.

18 Q. When you arrived in Room 18, were there already detainees in

19 there?

20 A. Yes. I was one of the last ones to be brought in; that is, the

21 room was full.

22 Q. How many were there in that room when you arrived?

23 A. In that room there were about, I should say, around 70.

24 Q. Did you know them from before?

25 A. Some I did; some I did not.

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Page 329

1 Q. And did you ever find out what ethnicity they had?

2 A. Ninety-nine per cent were Muslims.

3 Q. What age? Between what ages did they have?

4 A. Well, they were from young men underage up to 70 or 80 years of

5 age; that is old people there.

6 Q. What was the state of health among these people? Were there sick

7 people along the detainees in Room 18?

8 A. There were sick people too.

9 Q. When you say 99 per cent were Muslims, the 1 per cent, what

10 ethnicity did the 1 per cent have?

11 A. Well, was it 1 per cent or less than 1 per cent? But there were

12 several Croats.

13 Q. But there were no Serbs among you.

14 A. No, not one Serb.

15 Q. Could you estimate how many detainees there were altogether in

16 building 8, that is, in the entire prisoners' quarters?

17 A. Well, there must have been over 600 prisoners/detainees.

18 Q. What is the basis for your estimation?

19 A. Well, when the detainees would be taken out for meals, then they

20 would take out one room at a time. And from what we could see through the

21 window - of course, we were forbidden to do that - but we tried to

22 establish the number by counting them. And that's what we ended up, 600

23 or maybe more of those detainees. Of course, we could never establish it

24 quite accurately down to the last man.

25 Q. Did you know many of these detainees from before?

Page 330

1 A. Yes, I used to know quite a number of people, those who were from

2 the town itself. I knew most of the Foca inhabitants.

3 Q. And these detainees you saw and knew, were they civilians?

4 A. Yes, they were all civilians.

5 Q. How long did you stay in Room 18?

6 A. Well, until January or maybe February 1993. I don't remember

7 exactly. I do know it was a very harsh winter, it was cold, so it must

8 have been January or February.

9 Q. And where were you taken next, into which room?

10 A. And then they took me to Room 21, which is a small room.

11 Q. And why were you transferred to Room 21?

12 A. Well, some things came to pass and our men from number 18, with

13 the Serb convicts from across the passage who were in the Room 19 but they

14 were not locked up, they could move around freely, so some jewelry was

15 exchanged and valuables were given in exchange for cigarettes with those

16 men, and I was picked out from among those men in Room 18 to try to

17 maintain some order and discipline amongst us. I was responsible for --

18 at least that is how they saw me. So when that happened, I was called in

19 for an interview and they put me in solitary confinement, and then the

20 next day they transferred me -- transferred me to that Room 21.

21 Q. When you say that you were called in for an interview, who called

22 you in and to whom did you speak?

23 A. It was one of the guards who called me out and took me down to the

24 ground floor, to the guard room in that building, and in that office, it

25 was (redacted) who had the interview -- who interviewed me.

Page 331

1 Q. But I will now have to show you again the sketch. With the help

2 of the usher, I would like to show you the sketch 6/3. Do you have it?

3 You mentioned that Serb convicts were in Room 19. That's the same

4 level, then, as your Room 18 on the sketch, isn't it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did these Serb convicts arrive in the prison?

7 A. Well, they never left the prison. They were prewar convicts of

8 Serb origin from Bosnia; that is, they were not from Foca or -- they were

9 not from Foca and they could just not get back to their places of

10 residence, and they just stayed there.

11 Q. But you told us in the beginning that the detainees were all --

12 the prisoners were all transferred to Tuzla. That is that you forgot

13 these few, or is this now a misunderstanding?

14 A. No, it must be a misunderstanding. They stayed there; they never

15 left the penitentiary, the KP Dom, in the beginning.

16 Q. So they were there already before the war broke out.

17 A. Yes, yes, they were there before the war broke out. And when the

18 convicts were transported to Montenegro and Tuzla, they got as far as

19 Velecevo and stayed there. Those few that were of Serb origin, they just

20 stayed at Velecevo. And then later on, when this penitentiary was taken

21 and Foca as a whole, then they were brought back from Velecevo to the

22 penitentiary, to the KP Dom.

23 Q. And were they always kept separate? That means always in Room

24 19.

25 A. Yes, they were always kept separate from us because neither they

Page 332

1 nor we were allowed to communicate.

2 Q. And again with the help of the usher, I would now like to show you

3 the sketch 6/4. And you see the Room 21. That was a smaller room, then?

4 A. Yes. In this wing of the building, rooms are smaller.

5 Q. And how many detainees were in this room when you were taken

6 there?

7 A. There were 12 or 15. It varied.

8 Q. And if I understand you correctly, it was a punishment to be taken

9 to the Room 21. Is this a misunderstanding, or was it a punishment?

10 A. Well, I don't know about others. They had been already separated

11 before. And we in 18 knew that they had been taken upstairs. Whether it

12 was punishment or not, I don't know. When I got up there, I think it was

13 not punishment but they had been separated on purpose. And I was

14 separated, and when it happened to me, then that was a measure of

15 punishment.

16 Q. What kind of detainees were in Room 21? Can you describe them?

17 Why were they separated?

18 A. I don't really know why they were separated. But they were all

19 people of distinction in the town of Foca, they were all people with

20 university degrees. It included managers, teachers, physicians. There

21 were only two of them, one with the secondary medical school and

22 myself, we were the only ones without a university degree.

23 Q. Were you and the other detainees in Room 21 registered by the ICRC

24 at a point in time?

25 A. Why, no, that group. When a delegation of the International Red

Page 333

1 Cross would come, they would take us out of that room and to different

2 places. They did not register us for six months because they kept hiding

3 us for six months.

4 Q. The other detainees other than you in Room 21, when were they

5 registered by the ICRC?

6 A. The same day.

7 Q. What same day? I mean, tell us the date for that.

8 A. December 1993.

9 Q. That means you were registered together with the others in

10 December 1993. What about the other detainees in KP Dom? When were they

11 registered?

12 A. The others were registered in June 1993.

13 Q. How long did you stay in Room 21?

14 A. In Room 21 we stayed until the spring of 1993, when we were taken

15 to Room 15, in another building.

16 Q. And what was the reason for this transfer?

17 A. That spring a large-ish number of Serb detainees were brought from

18 Bileca, I believe, and so as to separate us from them and put them in one

19 building and us in another building, they transferred us all to the other

20 building. That was the reason for the transfer.

21 Q. And the Serbs from Bileca, were they convicts?

22 A. Yes, they were prisoners. Serbs.

23 Q. Were you kept separate from these other Serbs as well? I mean the

24 Muslims, not you personally alone. The Muslims as such.

25 A. Yes, all the Muslims were separated from them, and no

Page 334

1 communication with those prisoners was permitted.

2 Q. As you know the building well from your former work and also from

3 your detention time, could you tell us whether detainees on the top floor

4 of the building -- the prisoners' building, could they see the Drina River

5 and the bridge over the river?

6 A. Yes. The highest placed room in that building are Rooms 22 and

7 23, as far as I know, because I wasn't there -- I wasn't up there at that

8 time but I had been there before. And from what I know, one can see a

9 portion of the bridge, not all of it. But you can see some of the bridge

10 and you can also see some of the river, some of the Drina.

11 Q. Was the bridge big enough for cars?

12 A. Yes. It used to be the only bridge in the town until a new one

13 was built next to the municipal hall. So that was used also for vehicular

14 traffic.

15 Q. At that point, is the Drina River deep? Below the bridge, I mean.

16 A. Well, it is deep around those towers or, rather, pillars of the

17 bridge; elsewhere, 1 metre, 1.5 metres, 1.20. It varies because it is a

18 very fast-flowing river so ...

19 Q. What would you say is the distance between the prisoners'

20 quarters, Room 23 -- 22/23, and the bridge? What is your estimation?

21 A. Well, as the crow flies, not more than 100 metres or so.

22 Q. Before we leave the buildings, I would like to show you again --

23 sorry, I forgot something.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would you please show the sketch 6/3.

25 Q. The second floor of the administration building, can you point to

Page 335













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Page 336

1 us the warden's office?

2 JUDGE HUNT: There was no dispute about this.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I want to ask him about something adjacent to

4 it, and the other witness couldn't answer this.

5 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you lead him to where the warden's

6 office is because there's no dispute about it.


8 Q. The warden's office -- the big -- from the entrance -- from the

9 entrance -- from the entrance of the building to the right side, could you

10 point to the warden's office?

11 A. Yes. The warden's office was in this building here, and this

12 should be it. That's the office.

13 Q. Yes. And where was the deputy warden sitting?

14 A. Between the warden's office and the deputy's office was the

15 secretary, and it was from her office that you could also enter the deputy

16 warden's office.

17 Q. Yes. And the following office, who was there?

18 A. Here, you mean?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I think this was the office of the man who ran the economic

21 enterprise, but I'm not sure.

22 Q. Thank you. Thank you. The office of the warden, how was it

23 furnished? Especially in the last -- in the months before the war.

24 A. Well, it was quite posh. There was a desk and a meeting table,

25 because he held meetings there, board meetings, and received visitors.

Page 337

1 Q. Was there also something like a bed or a couch or something you

2 would be able to sleep on in this office?

3 A. I can't really remember that. But there were armchairs. It was

4 really richly furnished. No, there wasn't one, as far as I know. But

5 maybe there was. I don't know. I really don't.

6 Q. In regard to the security standard in the KP Dom, was it -- during

7 your detention, was it the same standard as before the war?

8 A. No, they were not the same.

9 Q. What was different?

10 A. Well, we used to have -- we used to have a well-established system

11 before the war. There were towers on the walls and guards, and that was

12 the security at night-time. There were also police dogs which were used

13 on the inside, in the inner yard.

14 At the time when I was detained, those towers were closed; rather,

15 they were not manned, there were no people on duty there; or the

16 machine-gun nest, again, was missing from the part of the administrative

17 building which was above the legal department.

18 Q. You mentioned the machine-gun nest. Where was the machine-gun

19 nest, and when was it put up?

20 A. That was in the administrative building, opposite the warden's

21 office, that is, at the other end of the building, on a window. Who did

22 it belong to? Well, those were the offices of the legal department, I

23 mean, the legal department of the penitentiary.

24 Q. And this machine-gun was aiming at what?

25 A. The building that we were in.

Page 338

1 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it's not clear to me at least

2 whether the machine-gun nest, as it has been described, was there before

3 and it had been moved or whether it arrived for the first time after this

4 witness became an inmate.


6 Q. Witness, when you were a guard, that is, before the war, was there

7 a machine-gun nest in that section of the administration building?

8 A. No, never. Never. There was never a machine-gun nest there.

9 Q. When was it put up there? Did you see it already when you

10 arrived, or was it set up after you had arrived?

11 A. No. When I was brought to the penitentiary, it was already

12 there.

13 Q. And how long did it stay in this position?

14 A. I wouldn't know exactly. But I do know that it was eventually

15 taken away from there.

16 Q. But when? Do you recall which year it was?

17 A. It was in 1992 sometime, by September. I know it was there in

18 summer. September. After that I have no recollection. I don't know if

19 it was still there. But I know that it was taken away.

20 Q. Was the compound mined before the war?

21 A. No. Mining was done by a unit, and as far as I can remember, it

22 was in June. A unit had arrived wearing uniforms of the Yugoslav People's

23 Army. And then at the places I mentioned that were usually patrolled by

24 police dogs, that inner part of the wall, that inner side of the wall was

25 mined, mines were placed there.

Page 339

1 Q. When you say "in June," does that mean June of 1992 when you were

2 already detained there?

3 A. Yes, yes. I was detained on the 20th of May, as I have already

4 mentioned. So a few days before June, those men were not there. It was

5 only in early June that they came and put their mines. So it was June

6 1992.

7 Q. Was there ever anybody injured because of the mines?

8 A. We did not -- we were not allowed to move about much. I know that

9 two Serb prisoners were killed. They tried to escape over the wall.

10 Q. Now, let us talk about the living conditions you had when you were

11 detained there. Did you have beds?

12 A. Yes, we did have beds. We had parts of beds, such as mattresses

13 and then a sponge or something; that is, not complete beds but simply the

14 wire mattresses, those springs, and on them were the sponges.

15 Q. Were there enough beds for all the detainees?

16 A. At first, no, because there were too many detainees, and some of

17 them had to lie down on those sponges or the floor without having

18 underneath any springs, any mattresses.

19 Q. Did you have blankets?

20 A. Yes, we had blankets.

21 Q. Did you have heating in the winter?

22 A. No, there was no heating, and the winter was very cold.

23 Q. How cold? Can you tell us the temperature?

24 A. Well, sometimes as much as 20 below that winter. Celsius, I

25 mean.

Page 340

1 Q. When you say "that winter," which winter do you mean? Which year?

2 A. 1992.

3 Q. What did you do to prevent from freezing?

4 A. Well, we mostly tried to walk in the day room. We tried to walk

5 up and down quickly and thus to warm up.

6 Q. Did this affect your health? This coldness, did this affect your

7 health or the health of any other detainee?

8 A. Yes. Quite a number of prisoners had chilblains, their ears or

9 hands. My hands were all swollen; they looked like cushions. The skin

10 would break, they were all blue, and I bled. The ears were swollen and

11 also bled. And it was all due to the very low temperatures.

12 JUDGE HUNT: On that note, I think it's time for lunch.


14 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume again at 2.30.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.










Page 341

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, before the break, we had just talked about the coldness

5 in KP Dom. I would like to ask you now what were the hygienic conditions

6 in the KP Dom? Could you shower, for instance, every week? Those

7 things.

8 A. No, we couldn't. We had no resources, we had no means to maintain

9 the hygiene, and there was no hot water because the boiler room, which

10 provided heat and hot water for baths and showers, was not operating at

11 all. So there was no heating and there were no regular baths or showers.

12 Q. Did you get clothes for changing into?

13 A. No. What we were wearing when we were brought in is what we wore

14 all the time.

15 Q. Were you fed regularly while detained?

16 A. We were fed regularly three meals a day, but they were very bad.

17 Q. What do you mean by "very bad"? Was it not enough?

18 A. It was neither enough nor of good quality.

19 Q. Was no food available at that time because of the war, or were the

20 rations deliberately kept so low? Do you know that?

21 A. As far as I know, we were not given enough food deliberately,

22 because they had enough food. Serbs had food.

23 Q. You mean the Serb detainees?

24 A. Yes, the prisoners as well. And I remember when it was Christmas

25 1992, at the bakery within the compound, they baked -- they roasted entire

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Page 343

1 lambs, a lot of lambs.

2 Q. And the Muslims, did they get something from this Christmas meal?

3 A. I didn't see meat almost ever, but especially at that time I

4 didn't see any meat at all.

5 Q. And the Serb prisoners, were they fed bigger rations and better

6 food? That was my question.

7 A. Yes. They were fed separately; they had a separate dining room,

8 and separate, better rations.

9 Q. Did you lose weight? And if so, how much?

10 A. Yes. We were all losing weight. Those who were plump lost more,

11 and those who were thinner lost less. But I personally lost about 20

12 kilos in the first three months.

13 Q. Did this affect your health and the health of any other detainee?

14 A. Of course it did. Losing so much weight had to affect our

15 health. I remember that people, when they went to take their meals in the

16 dining room, sometimes fainted while standing in the line from

17 exhaustion.

18 Q. Was medical care available to the Muslim detainees?

19 A. At the KP Dom there was an infirmary, and Gojko Jokanovic worked

20 there. He was a retired medical worker. And we sometimes got medicines

21 from him when we needed them. And as for medical assistance, once a week

22 or once in 10 or 15 days, a doctor from the town hospital came.

23 Q. Did the doctor come right from the beginning of your detention?

24 And was Gojko Jokanovic there from the beginning or only later on?

25 A. Gojko Jokanovic had been there when I arrived. But from the 12th

Page 344

1 May 1992 onwards, when I came, he was there. And when I -- while I was

2 detained, he was there all the time. I don't know about before.

3 Q. And the doctor, did he come right after you were detained or only

4 later on?

5 A. Later on. At the outset there was no doctor.

6 Q. Did anybody die due to lack of proper medical treatment?

7 A. Yes. There were people who died too.

8 Q. Can you tell us who?

9 A. In my room, Ibrahim Sandal died as a result of the consequences

10 of beating. He died because there was no medical assistance given to

11 him. If it had been given in good time, I'm sure that he would have

12 survived.

13 Q. When was Ibrahim Sandal beaten?

14 A. He was brought to the KP Dom already beaten up. He was born in

15 Sule, and he told me that he was beaten up there in his village, and he

16 was brought in a bad condition.

17 Q. Was he also beaten, then, in KP Dom?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What injuries did he have that he needed medical care which he did

20 not get?

21 A. He was so badly beaten up that he had hematomas all over his

22 body.

23 Q. And when did he die?

24 A. He died in the year 1992, as far as I remember. I'm not quite

25 certain of this.

Page 345

1 Q. Was he the only one who died due to a lack of medical care, or is

2 there anybody else you would remember?

3 A. I also remember Dzevad Kubat who also died in our room.

4 Q. And what did he have?

5 A. He had an ulcer, a stomach ulcer, as far as I remember.

6 Q. And when did he die?

7 A. He died in 1993.

8 Q. Do you recall what month it was?

9 A. No, I can't remember.

10 Q. Were you locked in the rooms all the time except for your visits

11 to the canteen?

12 A. Yes, we were locked up.

13 Q. Did you have family visits while you were detained?

14 A. No, I had no family visits, nor did anyone else, because that was

15 forbidden.

16 Q. Did you get letters from your family?

17 A. No. I began receiving letters only after I was registered by the

18 International Red Cross. Those were the so-called messages.

19 Q. Did you get any information about your family before you were

20 registered?

21 A. Yes. I would get some information from time to time from guards

22 or from Mitar Rasevic, head of the guards.

23 Q. Did you get information from the outside world, in addition to

24 some information from the guards, about your family?

25 A. No, I really didn't get any information ever.

Page 346

1 Q. Were you interrogated while in the prison?

2 A. Yes, once, and I remember that all prisoners went through

3 questioning.

4 Q. And when were you -- you yourself interrogated?

5 A. I was interrogated in June 1992.

6 Q. And where was it in the building?

7 A. In the offices of the chief, Mitar Rasevic.

8 Q. That would, then, be in the building, in the administration

9 building, in the left wing, on the first floor?

10 A. Yes, that was in the left wing of the administrative building,

11 upstairs.

12 Q. And who interrogated you?

13 A. I was interrogated by Inspector Koprivica.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this mode

16 of questioning. Until now we've been shown photographs. This witness and

17 the previous one showed that Mitar Rasevic's office was in building number

18 1, and the offices they were talking about is in the administrative

19 building. So the Prosecutor should not ask, "This is in the

20 administrative building, isn't it?" And if we have seen so many floor

21 plans and maps, then we should be shown where exactly it was so as not to

22 be misled into thinking that it was the administrative building.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I notice that the question was in these terms:

24 "Would that, then, be in the building, in the administration building, in

25 the left wing, on the first floor?" The left wing of the building called

Page 347

1 the administration building may be imprecise, but I think it's the same

2 building we were speaking about before. In other words, building number 1

3 along the outside set of buildings. But perhaps if we can get it cleared

4 up, and if there is still a problem, we can go to the maps.

5 Do you see the different terminology there, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?


7 JUDGE HUNT: I must say the use of the term "administration

8 building" seems to me to have been limited to the number 2 or the

9 right-hand side of the building, the one that's set back slightly from the

10 inside. So could you just clear that up with the witness?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I actually wanted to avoid going back

12 to the drawings --

13 JUDGE HUNT: I understand.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- because I think the witness had already

15 pointed out Mitar Rasevic's office when we went through these drawings. I

16 thought it would not be necessary.

17 Q. The administration building --

18 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute. Mr. Bakrac is still standing.

19 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, let us be clear on one

21 point. Exhibit 6/3, at least in the B/C/S version, it seems to show that

22 the left part of the building is called the guards' building, whereas the

23 right-hand side of the building is called the administration building.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, now I see the problem. For the

25 Prosecution it was -- the entire building is the administration building

Page 348

1 and the other building is the prisoners' building. That is ...

2 JUDGE HUNT: Unfortunately -- I'm sorry. What did you say? The

3 one that I'm working from which is 6A, the one with the English

4 translation, has not got the left-hand building's name translated. But if

5 you say that's what the word is in the original, let's call the building

6 number 1 the guards' building and the building number 2, the

7 administration building.


9 JUDGE HUNT: I noticed that at least two of the questions that

10 were answered earlier on by this witness seem to suggest that the

11 right-hand side was called the administration building. But please clear

12 it up with the witness.


14 Q. Witness, you have heard the discussion now. The right -- when you

15 stand in front of the KP Dom, the left-hand side building, how would you

16 call it? What is it to you?

17 A. I'll try to be as of much help as I can. The administration

18 building consisted of two structures, two buildings; the one which is

19 called on the drawing the guards' building, it was also a part of the

20 administrative building; and the wing which contained the administrators'

21 and the wardens' offices was the part of the same building. So when asked

22 where I was interrogated, I said in the building of the guards, as written

23 on the drawing that you showed me. But we in the KP Dom thought of both

24 buildings as the administrative building, and that's how we referred to

25 it.

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Page 350

1 Q. So you were interrogated in the guards' building, on the first

2 floor, in Mitar Rasevic's office?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And who interrogated you?

5 A. I was interrogated by Inspector Koprivica.

6 Q. And who was that? Was he a police officer or was he a military

7 person?

8 A. He was an inspector in the MUP, the Ministry of the Interior in

9 Foca, the police in Foca.

10 Q. What were the questions he had?

11 A. He asked me where I had been, what I had been doing, whether I had

12 weapons, whether I had participated in the fighting, et cetera.

13 Q. Were you accused of anything particular?

14 A. No, they didn't charge me with anything.

15 Q. Was a statement -- a written statement produced?

16 A. He wrote something down but they never showed me anything.

17 Q. Were you mistreated during the interrogation?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you ever beaten or mistreated while detained in KP Dom, you

20 personally?

21 A. No. They abused me verbally at times, but I was never beaten or

22 anything like that.

23 Q. When you say "they," whom do you mean?

24 A. I mean the guards, I mean people from the administration, I mean

25 anyone on the Serb side.

Page 351

1 Q. And when you say they mistreated you verbally, what did they do?

2 A. We mentioned all that before. When I was closed in the solitary

3 confinement cell, the person who was there, he abused me verbally. He

4 called me names; he used four-letter words. [As interpreted] But there

5 was no beating.

6 Q. Were any other detainees beaten?

7 A. Yes, other people were beaten.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, Mr. Bakrac, I didn't see you standing.

9 Perhaps if you just say "I object," then we'll look in your direction

10 rather than over in the other direction. Yes.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not object to the

12 question of my learned colleague. I have an objection to the transcript.

13 A name was mentioned which is not in the transcript. The transcript just

14 says the person who was there, and the name is missing. And as far as I

15 heard the witness, he mentioned a name. It is in line 75.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, page 75, line 9, it says: "When I was closed in

17 the solitary confinement cell, the person who was there, he abused me

18 verbally. He called me names; he used four-letter words." Now, you say

19 there was a name mentioned, was there? Did you hear what the name was?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Savo Todovic was mentioned, as far as

21 I heard.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps you better have it cleared up,

23 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


25 JUDGE HUNT: I mean, I listen to the English translation, I'm

Page 352

1 afraid.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I also didn't hear the name.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.


5 Q. Who abused you verbally when you were in this solitary confinement

6 cell? Who?

7 A. Savo Todovic.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you. I just had asked you, were any other detainees

9 beaten in KP Dom, and you said, yes, other people were beaten. Following

10 on this, were beatings a common occurrence in KP Dom?

11 A. You mean within the compound --

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. -- or outside? Within the compound it was not a common

14 occurrence, but it did happen that people were taken out, outside the

15 compound, and beaten up in the administrative building and in the guards'

16 building.

17 Q. Did this happen throughout your detention, or did it happen only

18 at a certain point in time?

19 A. In the beginning, until early June, the first few months.

20 Q. The first few months, then, is June actually correct? Because as

21 I understand you, you came there in May, on the 20th of May, and the first

22 few months wouldn't be June.

23 A. Until early July.

24 Q. Can you describe what happened on these occasions?

25 A. On these occasions a guard would come to the entrance to a room,

Page 353

1 would call out the name of an inmate and would take him to the gate.

2 Q. Now, at what time of the day would the detainee be called out

3 usually?

4 A. It usually happened after lunch, in the afternoon, and during the

5 night.

6 Q. Were single detainees called out or were they called out

7 group-wise?

8 A. No. Singly, only singly.

9 Q. And what happened -- when these detainees, then, were let to the

10 administration building, what happened then?

11 A. They were beaten up there, because after several minutes one could

12 hear moaning, strikes.

13 Q. Yes. And from -- could you see where -- in which part of the

14 administration building the detainees were beaten? Could you actually see

15 it?

16 A. No, that could not be seen. But I could know where it was by the

17 sound of it.

18 Q. And could -- where did these sounds come from? From which part of

19 the building?

20 A. The sounds came from the visit rooms, for the most part.

21 Q. You mean the rooms that you have pointed out to us as the rooms

22 where you actually worked, where you received visitors, and these adjacent

23 bedroom kind of cells or rooms?

24 A. Yes. These two smaller rooms and the larger room for group

25 visits.

Page 354

1 Q. You said you heard moaning and screaming. Did you also hear those

2 who beat? Did you hear any sounds from them, except for strikes?

3 A. You could hear swearing, because there were several of them so you

4 heard mixed voices, you heard abusive words, commotion, racket.

5 Q. Did you ever hear shots coming from these visitor rooms?.

6 A. I cannot recall whether I heard shots or not. But it was a common

7 occurrence at that time for shooting to be heard around the KP Dom. I

8 cannot, therefore, recollect exactly whether I heard shooting on such

9 occasions.

10 Q. Did you only hear the sounds of beatings and screaming from this

11 section, or did you also hear sounds like this from other sections?

12 A. Well, by the sound of it, when the screams and moans were muffled,

13 I knew that it was more distant, and when it was closer, I knew it

14 was happening in the room where we kept intoxicated or unruly prisoners.

15 Q. Did you hear from other detainees, maybe even from those who had

16 returned from beatings, in which other rooms they were beaten?

17 A. No, I didn't hear anything.

18 Q. Do you recall who was called out from your room, from this Room

19 18?

20 A. From my room, Grosonja, then Dzevad. I don't remember any more

21 people from my room.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I wonder, Your Honour, if it would assist you

23 if I, whenever the witness mentions a name, give you the number of the

24 case in the indictment. If you would like to have it, I can do so. If it

25 would be a disturbance, then I'll let it be.

Page 355

1 JUDGE HUNT: You mean in some other indictment or in this

2 indictment?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. In this indictment.

4 JUDGE HUNT: They've got different numbers, have they?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and for instance, for Grosonja, I can

6 tell you it's Schedule B23. Your Honour, if that would assist you ...

7 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes, if it's in this indictment, yes, please.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. I can do that. So Grosonja is B23.

9 Q. Who was this person, Grosonja? Did you know him from before?

10 A. Yes, Grosonja, I knew that young man from before.

11 Q. And he was young. And what kind of a profession did he have; do

12 you know that?

13 A. I don't know what his profession was. But I know that he was

14 brought to the penitentiary from hospital because he had been wounded.

15 And after that he was taken out and never came back.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Dzevad, I cannot

17 actually say who it is because we have so many Dzevads.

18 Q. Witness, you do not know the last name of Dzevad, the person

19 Dzevad?

20 A. I used to know it but I'm afraid I've forgot it because it was a

21 long time ago.

22 Q. And who was that? This Dzevad, was he an older person, a younger

23 person?

24 A. Quite young.

25 Q. And do you recall any other detainees -- the names of other

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Page 357

1 detainees who were called out in this manner but were not in your room?

2 A. Yes. I remember brothers Veiz, Munib and Zulfo; Halim Konjo

3 brothers Cankusic. I also remember a male nurse, Mandzo.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Munib Veiz is in the indictment twice; once

5 mentioned at Schedule B, number 59, and he is also on Schedule C, number

6 28.

7 Q. Who was this, this Munib Veiz? Was he an older person? And what

8 was his profession?

9 A. He was of middle age. He was a salesman in a leatherware shop

10 that belonged to the Visoko factory.

11 Q. Was he an SDA member?

12 A. I don't know.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The other person, Zulfo Veiz, that is the

14 incident 5.27 in the indictment. It's described in more detail. It's not

15 in the schedule. And he's also from Schedule C, and it's the person 29.

16 Q. Zulfo Veiz, who was he?

17 A. He was Munib's brother, and he used to work for the police in

18 Foca.

19 Q. And then you mentioned Konjo, Halim.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is also mentioned twice; Schedule

21 B, number 33 and Schedule C, number 13.

22 Q. Who was Halim Konjo?

23 A. Halim Konjo was a publican in Gornje Polje. He had his own

24 restaurant.

25 Q. And you mentioned Cankusic, two persons Cankusic.

Page 358

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: They are both on Schedule C, and they have

2 the numbers 3 and 4.

3 Q. These Cankusic persons, do you know their first name?

4 A. No, I don't know their first names. I know they are brothers; I

5 know they are relatively young. I used to know what they were called but

6 I just forget it.

7 Q. Do you recall anyone else?

8 A. Well, off the cuff, no, I really can't say. There were quite a

9 number of people who were taken out, but they simply escape me.

10 Q. Witness, do you recall that you gave previous statements to the

11 Prosecutor's Office and to the Bosnian police?

12 A. Yes, I do recall that. I gave a statement both to the Bosnian

13 police and here, to The Hague investigators.

14 Q. In these statements, did you give more names?

15 A. I may have. It's simply that I can't remember them right now.

16 But, yes, I do think that I gave them more names.

17 Q. Did you see --

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I will now refer to some of the names he gave

19 in the previous statements, and I don't think that is against you.

20 Q. Nurko Nisic --

21 A. Nisic, yes.

22 Q. -- was he also taken out in this manner?

23 A. No, not Misic with a M but Nisic with a N. Yes, Nurko Nisic was

24 also taken out. He also used to work for the police. And I knew him

25 personally.

Page 359

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is also addressed in two points in the

2 indictment. That is also 5.27, this specific incident, and also Schedule

3 C, number 19.

4 Q. What about Enes Uzunovic?

5 A. Enes, yes.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. Enes Uzunovic, a nurse, he worked in the Foca

8 hospital.

9 Q. Aziz Sahinovic

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, the person is C26, from Schedule C.

11 Q. Aziz Sahinovic.

12 A. Yes, I remember him, Aziz Sahinovic. Yes. A man of middle age.

13 As far as I can remember, he worked in the bank.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the incident 5.29 in the indictment.

15 That's a specific chapter.

16 Q. Do you recall what happened to Aziz Sahinovic? Did you see him

17 again? Did he come back from the beating?

18 A. Yes, he did come back. And he spent in our room a little while

19 longer and then he was taken to another room, and I think he was exchanged

20 then. But he was brought back to our room, yes.

21 Q. And was he injured when he came back?

22 A. Oh, yes, he was. One could see bruises on his face and on his

23 body, bruises from beating.

24 Q. You say that he was exchanged. Do you mean you met him

25 afterwards?

Page 360

1 A. No, I did not say that he was exchanged, but he was taken for the

2 exchange.

3 Q. And was he actually exchanged or did he disappear? What do you

4 mean?

5 A. Yes, he is missing. He disappeared. He is missing. But when we

6 inquired about that group, where had they taken them, we were told that

7 they had been taken to be exchanged.

8 Q. When was he taken away? Do you recall what month it was, maybe?

9 A. Oh, I wouldn't know. Could have been August, perhaps September.

10 I can't really say. But that was about that time. It was summer.

11 Q. And you said that he was taken in a group, away in a group.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How big was this group?

14 A. Well, I couldn't know exactly. There were about ten of them.

15 Q. Witness, you have mentioned several of these people, you have

16 mentioned several names. You have mentioned that Aziz Sahinovic returned

17 from the beating. Did anybody else -- did you see anybody else return

18 from the beating? And who?

19 A. Yes. Mandzo, as far as I can remember, his first name was Emir

20 and he was also a nurse in the Foca hospital, he was one of those who came

21 back from the beating and in a very poor state.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I'm not sure if it is the

23 incident B33 or B37 of the schedule, but I think we will find out when the

24 trial proceeds.

25 Q. Dzemo Balic, do you know this person, and do you know what

Page 361

1 happened to him?

2 A. That Dzemo Balic, yes, I know him. He also had a house in the

3 beginning of Pod Masala, not far from where I lived. I mean, I knew him

4 personally. He has disappeared; he is missing.

5 Q. Was he also taken out for beatings and returned?

6 A. Yes, he was beaten, and I don't know if he was brought back. I

7 think he was because I think that he was then kept in solitary

8 confinement.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That would be the incident B4.

10 Q. Witness, it's probably very difficult, but could you place these

11 incidents, these few incidents you have particularly addressed, could you

12 place it in time? Could you say when this happened?

13 A. Yes. It happened during the first three months, until about the

14 middle of July, thereabouts. Or perhaps until early August. I can't

15 remember exactly. But I know that was that first, the initial period of

16 my detention.

17 Q. Besides those you mentioned particularly here and that you

18 remembered their names, were more and other detainees also taken away for

19 beatings and disappeared?

20 A. Yes, quite a number. I already said so. Other prisoners were

21 taken out, except that I did not know all of them because some of them

22 came from around Foca, and some of them I simply did not know personally.

23 Q. Could you estimate the number of detainees who were taken in this

24 manner for the beatings and disappeared?

25 A. Well, I couldn't really say. I cannot be -- I cannot give you any

Page 362

1 figure.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to show the witness Schedule

3 C. It's Schedule C from the indictment. And I would like him just to

4 look at Schedule C and tell us which persons besides those he has already

5 mentioned he knows, please.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, do you have any objection to this being

7 done? It seems to be a very efficient way of dealing with it anyway.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Was the question whether he knew

9 those people from before? I didn't really quite get the question or,

10 rather, the drift of the question. What is the Prosecutor trying to find

11 out?

12 JUDGE HUNT: The question -- the Prosecutor said, "I would like

13 him just to look at Exhibit C and tell us which persons besides those he

14 has already mentioned he knows. That's the question.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, because I did not actually want to refer

16 to each name.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, whichever way it would be a leading question,

18 that's the problem, you see, and I'm just asking whether Mr. Bakrac

19 objects to it being done in this way.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, then we do not object. The

21 witness will look at the list and if there are any acquaintances

22 of his, any people he knows, if I understand you well.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

24 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you may proceed.


Page 363













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Page 364

1 Q. Witness, will you look at the list and tell us whom of these

2 people, if any, you knew, in addition to all those you have already

3 mentioned you knew?

4 A. Yes. I knew Adil Granov. Matte Ivannovic is another man I

5 knew. Esad Kiselica

6 Q. Sorry. When you point out someone to us, I will then ask another

7 question as well. So you said Adil Granov, that's number 9. You knew

8 him. Did you see him in the prison? Did you see him in the camp?

9 A. Yes, yes, he was in the camp.

10 Q. Did you see him being called out?

11 A. No, I did not see him being taken out, and I can't tell you

12 anything about him.

13 Q. Did he stay with you in the prison at a certain point in time?

14 A. No, no, he is missing. He is missing.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have an objection.


17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object -- we object

18 to this manner of questioning. The witness said that he knew him and that

19 he did not know if had been taken out. And after that the question was

20 whether he remained with him. The witness had already said that he did

21 not know whether he had been taken out and what had happened next to that

22 person.

23 JUDGE HUNT: But, Mr. Bakrac, this is the matter we debated at the

24 Pre-Trial Conference. The Prosecution has to establish that each of these

25 persons is dead. The Prosecution also has to establish the basis upon

Page 365

1 which they died. But at this stage, that question is directed solely to

2 the first part, that he is dead. The fact that he has disappeared is part

3 of proof to show that he is dead. It's not sufficient but it's part of

4 the proof upon which the Prosecution relies. It's not related to any

5 question of him being called out.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] But if the witness says he does not

7 know, what was the fate of that man, then perhaps the Prosecutor should

8 be more specific and ask him how does he know that, has he learned it from

9 the family which is trying to trace him or pronounce him missing, or how

10 can he know? And what is the source of his knowledge about that person's

11 lot? .

12 JUDGE HUNT: All of those questions would be perfectly permissible

13 questions, but so is, "Have you seen him since?" and he said, "No, he's

14 missing." It's only a very, very small point in the Prosecution's case to

15 establish that he is dead. That by itself cannot establish that he's

16 dead. But if a number of people say, "We haven't seen him since a

17 particular date," then the Prosecution will ask us to find that the man is

18 dead. Now, that's all that this question is directed to. The word

19 "missing" is equivocal, I accept, but it doesn't prove anything. So I

20 don't think there's any basis for objection there.


22 JUDGE HUNT: It might be better to ask a little more precisely the

23 question: "Have you seen him since then," and that may not invite an

24 answer, "He is missing."


Page 366



3 Q. Do you recall when you saw him last?

4 A. I used to see him in the prison, in the penitentiary, but I cannot

5 remember when it was that I saw him last.

6 Q. You have then mentioned Mate Ivancic. That is number 11. Who

7 was that?

8 A. Yes. Mate Ivancic was another nurse who worked for the Foca

9 hospital. He was of Croat origin, and he is one of those 1 or less per

10 cent of Croats who were detained together with Muslims.

11 Q. When did you see him last; do you recall? And what happened to

12 him?

13 A. Same thing. I saw him in the beginning and then I stopped seeing

14 him. I do not really remember what happened to him.

15 Q. Yes. Please proceed in the list.

16 A. Esad Kiselica, I know that person too. He used to work for the

17 electric company, and he lived in a residential building called Lepa

18 Brena. And again, same thing here, I used to see him in the early days

19 and then I stopped seeing him.

20 Q. Yes. Please proceed.

21 A. Fuad Mandzo is another person I knew. I also saw him in the early

22 days and I do not know what happened to him after that.

23 Q. And Fuad Mandzo, who was this? Did you know him from before?

24 A. Yes, I knew him from before. I'm only mentioning those whom I

25 used to know before.

Page 367

1 Q. What was he doing before the war? And how old was he,

2 approximately?

3 A. (redacted) As far as I know, he worked

4 for Gradine, for a building company in Foca.

5 Q. Yes. Please proceed.

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted) And he also used to work for the

8 power distribution company in Foca.

9 Q. And do you know --

10 A. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 He also worked in the KP Dom, in the penitentiary.

13 Q. That is it from this list?

14 A. Dzemal Vahida, I also know him. He was a policeman.

15 Q. Was he also in the prison and disappeared as --

16 A. Yes, he was in the prison. He is missing and I don't know what

17 happened to him.

18 Q. Witness, could you tell us if any of these people you have just

19 pointed out to us have been members of the SDA?

20 A. I wouldn't -- I don't know whether they were members of the SDA.

21 Q. Witness, this pattern of beatings, how did this -- and hearing

22 this, how did this affect you personally?

23 A. Well, the effect of it was I -- not only myself, all of us felt at

24 risk. We were having it hard because we feared for our own lives. Each

25 one of us thought that he might be the next one to be taken out for

Page 368

1 beating. So that psychologically, yes, it had a profound effect on us.

2 Q. Do you recall any particular incident when beatings were

3 especially numerous?

4 A. Well, for the most part, those beatings took place in June. I

5 cannot give you the specific date.

6 Q. Did you ever hear, while you were detained in KP Dom in that

7 period, any sounds from nearby fighting?

8 A. Why, yes, we heard it. Whenever Gorazde would be under attack,

9 one could hear from a distance the noise, the sounds of guns, of shells.

10 One could hear ambulance cars passing by the KP Dom on their way to the

11 hospital, and that is when the beatings were very intensive. When there

12 would be fighting around Gorazde and when Serb soldiers would suffer

13 casualties, then we called that retaliation. They would take it out on

14 us. They would come to the penitentiary. We could hear noise, we could

15 hear gunfire, and that is when most people were taken out.

16 Q. Were detainees also beaten in the prisoners' quarters? Did you

17 ever see that?

18 A. No, not in the building. But when one went for meals, on the way

19 there would be some incidents, but they were minor incidents.

20 Q. What do you mean by "minor incidents"? Was it just slapping, or

21 what do you mean?

22 A. Yes, yes. It would be a blow or two, a slap in the face, a kick,

23 something like that. I mean, it left no particular marks, did not

24 produce any serious consequences.

25 Q. And who did do that?

Page 369

1 A. Well, mostly guards, because it would happen in the canteen or in

2 the compound, when somebody might try to get another piece of bread or

3 something, and then guards would see him and then they would slap him in

4 the face or, I don't know, push him or something.

5 And perhaps there was one occasion when a group of Serb soldiers

6 had arrived and I believe that they were not Foca inhabitants. From their

7 speech, I gathered that they came from Herzegovina. They talked, and I

8 think that one of the guards said that a group was scheduled for the

9 exchange and that they had come to fetch that group. But they must have

10 also entered the kitchen to eat there, and when our group went for lunch,

11 then we had to pass between them, because they were standing there. And

12 then a couple of their men hit a couple of our men, but it wasn't all that

13 bad, it wasn't all that terrible. I mean, there were no consequences.

14 Q. When you say soldiers from Herzegovina, what does that mean?

15 Which area is it? Can you name one or two particular towns?

16 A. From Gacko to Trebinje, that whole stretch of land is what we call

17 Herzegovina.

18 Q. Did I understand that correctly, that you heard them speak? You

19 were actually present in the yard when that happened?

20 A. Why, yes, because it was our room's turn to go for lunch. I

21 heard them talk, and they have a rather specific dialect and that is how

22 I inferred that they were Herzegovinians. However, I was in the end of

23 the line so that I wasn't one of those who received a slap.

24 Q. Were guards present when that happened?

25 A. Yes. Whenever we would come out of the room, we would always be

Page 370













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Page 371

1 escorted by those guards working for the penitentiary, for the KP Dom.

2 Q. And when this incident with the soldiers happened, did they do

3 anything, the guards?

4 A. They just stood by. They never reacted.

5 Q. Were detainees exchanged? And from what time onwards did

6 exchanges take place?

7 A. Yes, there were several of those so-called exchanges. In the

8 period from August through October, that was when the greatest number of

9 those -- of people were taken away to be exchanged.

10 Q. And why do you call it "so-called exchanges"?

11 A. Later when I was exchanged, when I got out, I found out that many

12 of those people had not survived, they were missing, and they were taken

13 purportedly to be exchanged. Because whenever we asked the guards, we

14 would get the answer that they were taken to be exchanged.

15 Q. Were people ever taken out for plum picking?

16 A. Yes. That was in September 1992.

17 Q. And did they return after plum picking?

18 A. They never came back.

19 Q. Did you hear what happened to them?

20 A. They just went missing. They're not there anymore.

21 Q. And how many were taken away for plum picking?

22 A. They were not taken away on one occasion. There were two or three

23 groups taken away on the same day. I don't know how many people these

24 groups totalled, but I think it was 50 to 60.

25 Q. Did you know Dr. Aziz Torlak?

Page 372

1 A. Yes, I knew him. He was in my room.

2 Q. What was his profession?

3 A. He was a doctor of medicine. I think he was a surgeon, and he

4 worked in the Foca hospital.

5 Q. You said he was in your room. Was he already in the room when you

6 arrived?

7 A. Yes, he had been already in the room to which I was brought, and

8 that is Room 21.

9 Q. Yes, I see. So he was in -- you met him in Room 21.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What happened to him?

12 A. He was taken away for an exchange and he is no longer to be seen.

13 He's missing. All the information any of us got was that he was supposed

14 to be exchanged for a Chetnik vojvoda, duke. But when I got out, I found

15 out that nobody had seen him since. He's missing.

16 Q. Do you recall when he went missing, when that was?

17 A. He went missing in the summer of 1993.

18 Q. In the beginning you mentioned that detainees were civilians, the

19 Muslim detainees and the Croats were civilians. Were there later on some

20 other detainees there who may be considered not to have been civilians?

21 A. Yes. There was a group of several men who had been brought in and

22 had been fighters of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. And when was that, that these men came in?

24 A. They also arrived in 1993.

25 Q. And were they kept separate from the other detainees, those who

Page 373

1 came together with you, the civilians?

2 A. Yes, they were kept separate for awhile, but then they mixed them

3 with us.

4 Q. You have already mentioned that in relation to your being the head

5 of your room, you were punished with the isolation cell one day and then

6 taken to Room 21. Were you ever punished for anything else? And if so,

7 for what, and what happened?

8 A. I was locked up several times. Once when I was going to be

9 examined by a doctor - I had a cold, it was winter - and I was going to

10 see this Gojko upstairs, he gave me some tablets, and on my way back, I

11 tried to come into the kitchen, ask for a cup of tea to wash down these

12 tablets, but I was seen by the guard who just took me to the solitary.

13 Another time when I was in the compound, I tried to come into the

14 passage behind the building, the passage which was close to the solitary

15 confinement cells. I was again noticed by the guard. That was the period

16 when they occasionally let us go out into the yard. And I -- as I said, I

17 tried to get into that passage and I was noticed by the guard, and he

18 again put me in solitary confinement.

19 But neither of these two times did I spend a long time in solitary

20 confinement. Rasevic soon came for me and released me from the solitary

21 cell.

22 Q. And when you speak about the winter when that happened, your

23 kitchen visit, which winter?

24 A. That is the winter of 1992.

25 Q. And this other incident where you wanted to get into the

Page 374

1 passageway, when was that?

2 A. That was in 1993, in the summer.

3 Q. Do you recall that a detainee escaped once?

4 A. Yes. Ekrem Zekovic, who was arrested together with me and they

5 brought us together to the KP Dom, he managed to escape. It was not just

6 an attempt, it was a successful attempt. But on the same day or on the

7 next day, he was caught in a village outside Foca and they returned him to

8 the KP Dom.

9 Q. What were the consequences, if any, for the detainees, for all of

10 you detainees, of this escape?

11 A. Well, we were all automatically punished through feeding. They

12 simply halved our already poor rations.

13 Q. Do you know who ordered this?

14 A. As far as I know, that could have been ordered only by the warden

15 or by his deputy.

16 Q. What happened when Mr. Zekovic was brought back? Do you recall

17 anything in particular?

18 A. He was brought back, locked up in a solitary cell. And then one

19 day we were all taken out into the yard and they brought him before all of

20 us in chains. They demonstrated him to us, and we were told that this is

21 how anyone who tries to escape would end up, the way Zekovic ended up, in

22 solitary confinement, locked by chains.

23 Q. And who addressed you on this occasion? Who warned you?

24 A. We were addressed by Savo Todovic.

25 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac present when you were addressed?

Page 375

1 A. Yes, he was there, but he didn't speak. He was sitting on a

2 bench.

3 Q. Was he present the entire time, during this entire speech of

4 Mr. Todovic?

5 A. Yes, he was.

6 Q. Do you recall when that was, when that happened? Which month, for

7 instance?

8 A. It was either July or August 1992.

9 Q. Are you sure about the year? August 1992, that's, rather, in the

10 beginning of your detention. Or after the first few months?

11 A. Or maybe 1993. It was the summer. I'm sorry, I'm not sure. But

12 in all probability it was 1993. Actually, you're right.

13 Q. Did you have to work in the prison, you personally?

14 A. I myself did not work in the beginning, but I later worked in the

15 brown coal mine in Miljevina.

16 Q. From when onwards did you work in the mine?

17 A. From September 1993 to the end.

18 Q. When you started to work in the mine in Miljevina, was

19 Mr. Krnojelac still the warden?

20 A. Yes, for a short while he was still the warden.

21 Q. When you were taken to Miljevina, were you escorted?

22 A. Yes. We were always under convoy. We went to work under escort

23 and we came back the same way.

24 Q. Was it guards who accompanied you or soldiers?

25 A. The guards from the KP Dom.

Page 376

1 Q. Was the work in the Miljevina mine voluntary? Could you have

2 refused to do that?

3 A. No, by no means. We had to work.

4 Q. Were you paid for your work?

5 A. No, we were not paid. But we got ten cigarettes, a loaf of bread,

6 and a tin of food from the mine.

7 Q. You said that you started to work in about September --

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Is that in addition to

9 the other food? You have, I won't say a "difficulty" with this case about

10 forced labour. If they're being paid for it, I'm not sure whether that

11 avoids it being forced. But if you are going to rely upon it as being

12 forced whether it was paid or not, should we not know whether that food

13 was given in addition to their usual rations?


15 Q. Witness, was this bread you just mentioned, this food, was it in

16 addition to the normal rations? Did you receive more food?

17 A. When we went to the mine, we went early, so we had to miss

18 breakfast and lunch. But as far as we know, what we were given was

19 supplied by the mine, not by the KP Dom.

20 Q. And was it more than you got in the KP Dom?

21 A. Well, it had to be a little more, because as exhausted as we were,

22 we couldn't have worked otherwise. It was very hard work. We got one

23 quarter of a loaf of bread and about 400-gram tins of food -- sorry,

24 100-gram tins of food.

25 Q. Thank you. Let's now move on to a different issue, and that is

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Page 378

1 the command structure in KP Dom during your detention.

2 Who was the warden?

3 A. When I was arrested, the warden was Milorad Krnojelac.

4 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?

5 A. Yes, I did know him.

6 Q. How did you know him?

7 A. He was a teacher in the upper school. He lived behind the

8 carpenter's shop. I also knew his sons, one of whom kept a cafe, ran a

9 cafe.

10 Q. Did he work in the prison at any time before the war?

11 A. He didn't.

12 Q. You told us that while you worked in the KP Dom, it was

13 Mr. Tesovic who was the warden. Do you know why he was replaced by the

14 accused?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Who appointed the accused; do you know that?

17 A. I can only guess. But it was a matter of the SDS policy. I don't

18 know who could have appointed him. Perhaps the Crisis Staff. I don't

19 know.

20 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac a member of the SDS?

21 A. Yes, he was.

22 Q. How do you know that?

23 A. He was in the executive board of the SDS for the town of Foca. I

24 used to see him. It was talked about in the city. And he was also at a

25 rally, at an SDS rally which I attended. It was held at a stadium.

Page 379

1 Q. This SDS rally, when was it?

2 A. It was before the multiparty elections, when the electoral

3 campaigns were under way, perhaps in 1989, 1988 perhaps, when the SDA too

4 was campaigning in Foca and that's when the SDS rally was held too. So

5 sometime before the multiparty elections.

6 Q. So did you see Mr. Krnojelac make a speech? Or how do you know

7 that he was in the SDS?

8 A. Well, I know from the stories, the talking. I worked with Serbian

9 colleagues who knew him personally. One of my colleagues was a neighbour

10 of his. It was common knowledge. It was a small town and everybody knew

11 everything.

12 Q. And did you see Mr. Krnojelac present on the rally in a function

13 of any kind?

14 A. He attended and he was up on the stage, but he didn't make a

15 speech. In fact, I didn't see him make a speech. Maybe I left too

16 early.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would just like to know -- to hear

20 from this witness what he has just read from the piece of paper before --

21 below the list he has in front of him.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the list you gave me. This

23 list has been on my desk all the time.

24 JUDGE HUNT: That's Schedule C, is it?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, that's not Schedule C. That's actually

Page 380

1 the name list. When we started, he got the name list, and we left it with

2 him because there was a name on it and I thought he would address this

3 name. He didn't do it. So it can be taken away from him.

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's Exhibit P395?


6 JUDGE HUNT: That's the piece of paper there.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, I just saw what it

8 was. I objected because I had seen the witness reading something from a

9 list, and I couldn't figure out what it was.

10 JUDGE HUNT: I understand. Thank you.


12 Q. Witness, when you say you saw him on a stage, does that mean he

13 was on the podium, sitting with other high-ranking people, or what do you

14 mean?

15 A. Yes, he was on the podium where members of the party usually sat

16 and people occupying high posts in the party.

17 Q. Witness, you said he was the warden of the KP Dom during your

18 detention. Did he introduce himself as the warden to the detainees, or

19 how do you know that?

20 A. No, he didn't introduce himself to us. But I know he was the

21 warden because I saw and heard my former colleagues, the guards,

22 addressing and greeting him as Mr. Warden. When somebody wanted to see

23 the warden, they asked to see Mr. Milorad Krnojelac. Perhaps they hadn't

24 known in advance who the warden was, but that's who they ended up talking

25 to. One of the men was my former colleague. He worked -- one of the men

Page 381

1 was his former colleague from the school, and we sent him to complain

2 about the conditions in the KP Dom. And he also had private complaints

3 and tried to get Mr. Krnojelac to help him and do something about it.

4 Q. Let me clarify something. You said you heard the guards address

5 Mr. Krnojelac as Mr. Warden. When did you hear them say that?

6 A. When he would enter the compound, when he was walking, we could hear

7 from the windows, and if we happened to be down in the yard, we could also

8 hear the guards addressing him as Mr. Warden.

9 Q. The windows in the room, in the Room 18, didn't they have glass?

10 Were they glass windows, or was there no glass in it so that you could

11 hear what was said in the compound?

12 A. The windows could be opened. In the first year there were no

13 panes; later they gave us foil sheets and we put them up. But we could

14 hear what happened in the yard. It wasn't far away.

15 Q. Did you -- being a colleague, actually, of the guards, the former

16 colleague, did they ever talk to you and tell you that Mr. Krnojelac was

17 the warden?

18 A. Yes, on several occasions. And when I asked whether it would be a

19 good idea to ask for something, they told me they had to ask for approval

20 and they had to ask the warden, and then they told me that the warden was

21 Milorad Krnojelac.

22 Q. You have already mentioned that you saw him in the prison. How

23 often did you see him? Did you see him on a daily basis?

24 A. No, I didn't see him every day. Perhaps twice a week he would

25 enter the compound, in the morning usually. It depended on his own

Page 382

1 goodwill, when and whether he would go into the prisoners' quarters, into

2 the compound.

3 Q. When you saw him in the compound, what was he doing?

4 A. Nothing. He just walked around.

5 Q. Was he walking alone, or who was with him?

6 A. No. He was usually accompanied either by Savo or by Mitar

7 Rasevic.

8 Q. And when you say "Savo," you mean Mr. Todovic, the deputy?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What was Mr. Krnojelac wearing when you saw him?

11 A. I used to see him wearing a suit.

12 Q. And did he carry a weapon?

13 A. I didn't see him carrying a weapon. I seem to remember that he

14 didn't have one. Maybe he had one in his belt but you couldn't see that.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Is that a convenient time?


17 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps one of your juniors could remind you as we're

18 getting towards the end of a session.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

23 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.