1 Wednesday, 1 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry for the late beginning. The technical

10 problems have now been resolved.

11 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS FWS-139 [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Witness.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. Witness, yesterday we started to talk about the command structure

19 in the KP Dom, but before I come back to this issue, I would like to

20 clarify two points with you. You said that you worked in the Miljevina

21 mine and you got some more food there because you needed more food to be

22 able to do the work. Was the work hard to do?

23 A. It was the hardest possible physical labour and continues to be

24 so. It is working in the mine, deep below ground.

25 Q. And it was physically hard work?

1 A. Yes, it is physically hard work.

2 Q. And was it dangerous work as well?

3 A. Yes, it was also dangerous because it is underground.

4 Q. Did you ever get hurt, or any other detainee working there?

5 A. No, not myself. But Taib Reko had an accident where his foot was

6 crushed.

7 Q. And when did this happen; do you recall that?

8 A. While working in the pit, he was crushed by a block of coal and

9 his foot remained between a pillar and this block of coal. And there was

10 also the moving conveyor belt nearby which blocked him, and until the

11 conveyor belt was stopped, his foot was paralysed there and it ended up

12 crushed.

13 Q. I actually wanted to know when this happened, in which month or

14 year.

15 A. It was in December 1993.

16 Q. And the other matter I would like to clarify with you: The

17 capacity of the prison in peacetime, what was it?

18 A. Well, the prison capacity was about 1.200 convicts.

19 Q. And Room 18 or --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Excuse me. I'm sorry. We've still got a problem

21 here about whether the figure that is being given relates solely to this

22 set of buildings, the one we had the photographs of, or whether it relates

23 to that and the women's prison and the various ones, because we've had now

24 a number of different figures.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

1 Q. Witness, this 1.200 prisoners, does that relate only to the KP Dom

2 main compound that we had discussed in the drawings, or does this relate

3 to the entire KP Dom including the female prison and these other

4 facilities like farm, pond, the fish pond, and ...

5 A. This is only the capacity of the buildings for convicts within the

6 compound of the penitentiary. So it is the buildings on the sketches 1A

7 and B, if I remember correctly, that is, only those two buildings in the

8 compound of the male penitentiary.

9 Q. I see. I think that's clear now. Can you tell us the capacity --

10 the peacetime capacity of Room 18 and the other big room sets?

11 A. Well, all the large rooms could accommodate about 120 men per

12 room.

13 Q. And when you were detained in KP Dom, you said that there were 70

14 in Room 18 with you. Was it crowded or was it enough space for everybody?

15 A. It was crowded because we did not have double beds. We -- there

16 were only beds which could stand on the ground, so that there wasn't room

17 for everybody to sleep down -- to lie down and sleep.

18 In peacetime, convicts in those rooms had double beds.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, again, we've got a problem about

20 what you mean by Room 18. There are four bedrooms or two, I've forgotten

21 which, but there's certainly more than one room all within the area

22 designated as Room 18.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

24 Q. Room 18, you have told us that there were actually four bedrooms.

25 And when you say 120 was the peacetime capacity, does that relate to the

1 entire set of rooms -- to the four bedrooms?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when you say 70 were in Room 18, you mean the room set again,

4 or do you mean one bedroom?

5 A. I mean the whole room with all the four dormitories.

6 Q. When you say "double bed," does that mean two levels of bed, that

7 is, one above the other?

8 A. Yes. Bunk beds, yes.

9 Q. And when you say -- in the peacetime they had these bunk beds and

10 you had only the one-level bed, is that the reason why you say it was

11 crowded?

12 A. Yes, because beds could be lined up only at one level.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now let's turn back to Mr. Krnojelac and his

14 role in the prison. You said that you knew him before the war and you saw

15 him in the prison on a regular basis.

16 A. That is correct.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, sir.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said

20 yesterday that he saw him perhaps once or twice a week. Now the

21 Prosecutor leads him to say that he saw him regularly there in the

22 penitentiary.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have a reference to the transcript where he

24 said only once or twice? My recollection was he said it was a matter of

25 some irregularity as to when he was there.

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We can ask the witness, because now

3 perhaps we shall waste time by looking for it in the transcript. Yes,

4 here it is. Page 101, line 22: [In English] "No, I didn't see him every

5 day. Perhaps twice a week he would enter the compound."

6 JUDGE HUNT: You better sort that out then, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I was also aware that he

8 said twice a week, and to me that was regularly. But I will rephrase it.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it's regularly twice a week but not regularly

10 throughout the week. I think that's Mr. Bakrac's point.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, regularly twice a week.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But what -- I actually wanted to clarify a

14 matter.

15 Q. The accused here in the courtroom, is that Mr. Krnojelac that you

16 knew from before the war and you saw in the prison?

17 A. Yes, yes, that is the man.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's not meant as an

19 identification procedure here. It's just to clarify that we are not

20 speaking about a different person.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23 Q. Witness, you have mentioned that you saw him in the prison

24 together with Savo Todovic and Mr. Rasevic. Did you also see him with

25 politicians in the prison compound?

1 A. No, I did not see him with politicians.

2 Q. Did you see him with a military person from outside?

3 A. Yes. On a couple of occasions he would come into the compound

4 with Boro Ivanovic, and the latter was a military.

5 Q. Do you know what function Mr. Boro Ivanovic had? When you say

6 "military person," was he a high-ranking person?

7 A. I wouldn't know. But he wore a camouflage uniform, and I heard

8 from other inmates who knew him that he was with the military command at

9 Velecevo, stationed at Velecevo, that he was one of those.

10 Q. Witness, you said that he was the warden of the KP Dom. Let me

11 put to you what the accused himself says about his position in the KP

12 Dom. The accused said he was not the warden of the KP Dom but he was

13 actually the head of the economic section of KP Dom. What do you say to

14 this?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is taken outside

18 the context, and the purpose of the whole interview and what he said was

19 that he was president of the civilian part and that he was also the

20 manager of the economic section. So it cannot really be taken out of the

21 context. The purpose of the interview, we shall see that, is that the

22 accused said that, yes, he was the warden of the KP Dom, of the civilian

23 wing, which was issued by the military authorities. We have that

24 document, and the Prosecution has it. So one cannot take it out of the

25 context to say that he was only the manager of the economic unit, because

1 then the witness can be misled.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I think your point is a good one, Mr. Bakrac, but may

3 I say it is not improved by repeating it twice.

4 Yes, that is so, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. That is the issue which has

5 been raised. He's never said that he was only the manager of the

6 economic -- or the head of the economic section.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but we're -- okay. Thank you.

8 Q. Then let me put it differently to you. The accused said that the

9 KP Dom, during the war, had two separate sections: A military part and a

10 civil part. And the Muslim detainees were in this military part and the

11 normal convicts were in the civil part, and he was only responsible for

12 this civil part. What do you say to this?

13 A. That is pure fiction. That is not true.

14 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in his office?

15 A. No, I did not.

16 Q. Did you speak to him while you were detained?

17 A. No, never. But other people did.

18 Q. And can you tell us who did have contact, which kind of persons?

19 A. It was a colleague, a fellow teacher.

20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. I did not catch the name of that

21 man.

22 A. He was often -- he often went to his office to talk to him. And

23 at our request, when we began to ask, because he knew him from before, we

24 then instructed that inmate to go to the warden, to intercede on our

25 behalf, to see that the conditions are improved and so on and so forth.

1 Then he would go there and come back, and he would say that, yes, he had

2 been to see the warden, the warden his former fellow teacher. Savo Avdic

3 also went to see him, and when he went to see him, he went on the same

4 business, that is, to intercede on our behalf, to see if we could get

5 better food. And when he would ask to see the warden, he would be taken

6 to see Milorad Krnojelac, and after returning he would say, "I've just

7 seen Milorad Krnojelac."

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

9 Q. The interpreters didn't get the name of the first teacher you

10 mentioned. What was the name of the first teacher?

11 A. Rasim Jusufovic. He taught physical culture. He was the games

12 master in the school, and he taught in the same school as the accused

13 Milorad Krnojelac.

14 Q. Did Mr. Jusufovic tell you what Mr. Krnojelac said when he brought

15 forward the complaints?

16 A. Well, yes, he always promised to look into it, to try to do

17 something about the conditions. But nothing ever changed.

18 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Jusufovic also mentioned something else

19 that you heard from Mr. Krnojelac?

20 A. Once after such a visit to the warden, he seemed very under the

21 weather and wouldn't tell us anything. And when we tried to ask him what

22 happened, he finally said that the warden had told him that Halim Konjo,

23 who had been taken out to be beaten, had succumbed to the battery, to the

24 beating.

25 Q. And do you recall when that was?

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1 A. That was in June 1992.

2 Q. When was the accused replaced?

3 A. I do not remember the exact date, but he was replaced and survived

4 the detention. I think it was October -- no, I can't remember. I don't

5 remember exactly, but I do know that he is alive and that he was

6 exchanged.

7 Q. We are talking about Mr. Krnojelac. So you said he was alive and

8 that he was exchanged.

9 A. Oh, I thought you were asking about Rasim Jusufovic.

10 Q. I was asking -- I just already left the issue. I was now talking

11 about Mr. Krnojelac. When was he replaced?

12 A. We do not know when that was exactly. He simply stopped coming

13 one day. And what then happened to him, I don't know. It could have been

14 early October 1992. And I know that Savo Todovic then acted as the warden

15 until somebody else was appointed.

16 Q. You said early October 1992. Is that correct, 1992?

17 A. No. 1993.

18 Q. Who -- you said a short -- Savo Todovic was in between in the

19 interim time. Who then actually became the new warden?

20 A. For awhile Savo Todovic discharged that function. He was the only

21 one that we used to see around until Zoran Sekulovic turned up, and he

22 assumed the post of the warden of the camp.

23 Q. When Mr. Sekulovic became the warden, did the conditions change?

24 Your conditions, the detainees' conditions.

25 A. Yes, and how. Both the food and accommodation and sanitary

1 facilities, everything, all the conditions, improved.

2 Q. Did Mr. Sekulovic address the detainees? Did he make a speech

3 when he came?

4 A. No, no, no. He did not address us in a formal speech, I mean, to

5 bring us altogether and then speak to us. I don't think he did that. No,

6 no, he didn't.

7 Q. Who was the second in command in the KP Dom while Mr. Krnojelac

8 was the warden?

9 A. You mean the second in command? Well, the second one was Savo

10 Todovic.

11 Q. Did you see him in the prison on a regular basis?

12 A. Savo Todovic, yes. More often than Krnojelac.

13 Q. What was Mr. Todovic wearing when you saw him?

14 A. Todovic would sometimes be in a camouflage uniform and sometimes

15 in a suit.

16 Q. Did he have a weapon on him when you saw him?

17 A. Yes, on various occasions I did see him with a weapon. He would

18 have a pistol in his belt.

19 Q. You said that you saw him more often. How often did you see him?

20 On a daily basis?

21 A. Well, perhaps not on a daily basis, but I believe not less than

22 five times a week.

23 Q. Do you know who appointed him in his position?

24 A. I do not know who that could be. The same people, the same

25 authority which appointed Krnojelac, they must have appointed Savo too.

1 Q. Did you have personal contacts with Mr. Todovic? Did you speak to

2 him?

3 A. Why, yes, I have already said so. When those incidents happened

4 that he threatened me, used foul language, locked me in the solitary

5 confinement, so, yes, there were personal contacts.

6 Q. Do you know his duties? Could you say something about what his

7 specific duty was in the prison at the time of your confinement? Not

8 before that.

9 A. All that happened could not happen without Savo because he was the

10 one who assigned people to various tasks, who specified tasks. When

11 interviews had to be made with somebody, he would come to the compound and

12 there in the compound, within the compound, he would interview inmates.

13 He was also responsible for exchange lists, participated in the

14 compilation of those lists. In a word, all that went on around us did not

15 go on without Savo.

16 Q. How do you know that, that he was involved with exchange lists and

17 all these other dealings? Did you observe that or did someone tell you?

18 A. Well, no, I heard that from guards. For instance, when I asked

19 Mitar Rasevic, "Why am I not on a list for exchange?" he answered, "Well,

20 I'll ask Savo. I'll tell him to add your name on the list or something."

21 Q. Let me compare the situation just at one point before the war and

22 during your confinement. Before the war when you were a guard, the

23 director at that time, Mr. Tesovic, did he have many dealings with the

24 prisoners directly?

25 A. Well, he would sometimes enter the compound perhaps once a week.

1 Q. Who had the dealings in peacetime with the prisoners directly, the

2 personal contact?

3 A. Well, their rehabilitation officers worked directly with them.

4 Each group of prisoners had their own rehabilitation officer.

5 Q. And you have already mentioned that he assaulted you verbally,

6 Mr. Todovic. Did you see him beat detainees?

7 A. No, no, I didn't.

8 Q. You told us at the beginning of your testimony that Mitar Rasevic

9 was the commander of the guards before the war. Did he remain in this

10 position?

11 A. Sorry. You said Vasic. You mean Rasevic?

12 Q. I said Mitar Rasevic.

13 A. Sorry, I had heard -- I seem to have heard Vasic. All right.

14 Mitar Rasevic was commander of the guards before the war and during the

15 war.

16 Q. Did you see him on a daily basis in the prison?

17 A. Yes. He entered the compound every day.

18 Q. What did he wear?

19 A. He was dressed sometimes in a camouflage uniform, sometimes in a

20 suit, a civilian suit.

21 Q. When you say camouflage uniform, do you mean the military

22 uniform? Or did the guards also have camouflage uniforms, let's say

23 police uniforms?

24 A. Well, it was a camouflage uniform but blue. It was not a military

25 one but the police version of the camouflage uniform.

1 Q. I forgot to ask you about the uniform of Mr. Todovic. What kind

2 of uniform did he have? Was it the blue one or the military one?

3 A. The same as the guards. He had a blue camouflage uniform.

4 Q. Yes. Mr. Rasevic, how did he treat the detainees?

5 A. He behaved properly towards them.

6 Q. Being his former colleague, did you talk with him while you were

7 detained?

8 A. Yes, I talked to him several times. I even asked him to tell me

9 anything he might know about my family, because my family had remained in

10 my home, at the apartment. And I contacted him often. He would sometimes

11 bring me a pack of cigarettes.

12 Q. Did you talk to him about the living conditions of the detainees

13 and how -- yes.

14 A. Well, I always discussed it with him. I always kept trying to

15 find out something through him. He would always reply that he would talk

16 to the warden, he would suggest to the warden to improve the conditions,

17 but nothing ever changed.

18 Q. Did he ever tell you who was responsible for these bad conditions?

19 A. Well, he always said he would have to check with the warden, with

20 Krnojelac. It is from him that I heard that the warden was Krnojelac and

21 that he was the only one who could improve the conditions in the prison.

22 Q. Did Mr. Rasevic ever discuss with you who was above Mr. Krnojelac,

23 the warden, who was actually above the prison authorities?

24 A. Well, Krnojelac was the top man, the greatest authority in the

25 prison. There was no one above him.

1 Q. Yes, that's understood. But you said, for instance, when you

2 worked there, it was all below the Ministry of Justice. I was talking

3 about this level. Do you know who was actually supervising the prison

4 from outside?

5 A. Well, at that time the state institutions didn't operate. The SDS

6 was the -- had the power. They appointed everyone.

7 Q. When Mr. Sekulovic became the warden, Mr. Todovic and Mr. Rasevic,

8 did they keep their positions? Did Mr. Todovic stay the deputy?

9 A. As far as I know, they both remained on their posts in the

10 prison.

11 Q. You have mentioned that Mr. Todovic insulted you verbally. Did he

12 change his behaviour after the warden was replaced?

13 A. Yes, he changed his treatment of the prisoners. It changed

14 considerably. It was quite different.

15 Q. When you described to us the functioning of the prison before the

16 war, you mentioned that there were shifts of guards. This shift system,

17 did it remain in place?

18 A. Yes, it did. The guards during the war continued to work in

19 shifts, but these shifts would sometimes last 12 hours, and at other times

20 they would again be eight hours.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you did not follow up that

22 question -- that answer. When the witness said that Mr. Todovic's

23 behaviour was quite different, I for one would be interested to know

24 whether it was for the better or for the worse.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

1 Q. You heard His Honour speak. How did the behaviour change? In

2 which way?

3 A. It changed for the better. He stopped abusing prisoners.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

5 put in front of the witness Prosecution Exhibit 3. That is the

6 Serbo-Croatian version of the list of employees. I have it here. 3A is

7 the English translation. It would be helpful if everybody puts it in

8 front because I will address some people on the list by number.

9 Q. Witness, number 3 on this list in front of you is the accused, and

10 I only would like to clarify a matter. When you look in column number 5,

11 it says actually that he was in the prison until 8 September 1994. What

12 could you say?

13 A. That isn't true. I said he was there, perhaps, until early

14 October 1993. I said he was warden until that time.

15 Q. After October 1993, did you ever see him in the prison again?

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness answered.

19 This question was asked and answered. The witness said he didn't see him

20 after October. He repeated it again, but I don't see any reason for

21 repeating the question that had been answered.

22 JUDGE HUNT: The transcript suggests that all he said that he was

23 there perhaps until early October 1993. "I said he was warden until that

24 time." Do you suggest that he has earlier said he never saw him again

25 after October? It certainly doesn't appear to be at this stage of the

1 transcript. He may have been asked it yesterday.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I meant today's

3 transcript. What I understood the witness saying is that his estimate is

4 the man was there until October, because he didn't see him after that

5 time. We are not able to find the exact place in the transcript at the

6 moment when we are making the objection.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think you will either, if I may say so. The

8 answer may be interpreted one way or the other. I myself interpreted it

9 as saying he saw him there as the warden until October 1993. That was the

10 question, and the question referred to his being the warden, and the

11 answer certainly was open to that interpretation. In those circumstances,

12 the question asked by the Prosecutor was perfectly correct.

13 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you may proceed.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Now I don't recall if the witness had

15 answered this.

16 JUDGE HUNT: No, he hadn't.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18 Q. Would you please answer my question? Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in

19 the prison after October 1993?

20 A. No, I never saw him again.

21 Q. Now I would like to move to the person listed number 9, Risto

22 Ivanovic. Was he a guard before and during the war?

23 A. Yes, he was a guard both before the war and during the war.

24 Q. And how did he treat the detainees; do you know that?

25 A. His -- he was a guard who behaved towards the prisoners the most

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1 properly, the most correctly.

2 Q. And would you now look at number 11, Savo Todovic. It says here

3 on the list: "Assistant warden for legal and financial affairs since 1

4 July 1993." Can you comment on this?

5 A. Savo Todovic was deputy warden from the time when I was arrested.

6 When I arrived there, he was already deputy warden. That means May 1992.

7 Q. And now I would like to go to number 17, Dragomir Blagojevic. Was

8 he a guard before and during your confinement?

9 A. He was a guard both before and during the war.

10 Q. How did he treat the detainees; do you know?

11 A. He treated me properly. I don't know how he treated others.

12 Q. And number 18 on the list, Cedomir Krnojelac, would that be a

13 relative of the accused; do you know?

14 A. As far as I know, he is. And this man worked in the KP Dom even

15 before the war. He worked in the procurement service of the KP Dom before

16 the war.

17 Q. And now taking the persons listed under 20 to 26, were they all

18 guards before and during the war?

19 A. Yes, all of them. All of them were guards both before and during

20 the war.

21 Q. And how did they treat the detainees?

22 A. Predrag Stefanovic did not behave properly towards prisoners. He

23 was insolent; he used foul language. Milivoje Milic was correct. Miro

24 Sekulovic, he was not there from the outset, but he showed up later at the

25 KP Dom. Zdravko Ivanovic, as far as I know, he was in the economic

1 department because he was seen by people who went to work up there.

2 Milenko Cancar was on duty, which means he worked outside the compound but

3 he would occasionally enter the compound. Miro Sekulovic, as far as I

4 know, was correct. And about Milivoje Milic, I don't know anything. He

5 was correct as far as I know.

6 Q. Would you please now turn to the next page. Number 27, the guard

7 listed there, Milan Bogdanic, was he there before and during the war? And

8 how did he treat the detainees?

9 A. It's on the same page in my version.

10 Q. I'm sorry. Number 27.

11 A. He worked in the KP Dom both before and during the war, and he was

12 among those who behaved the most properly towards me. I can't say for

13 others. But from what I know, he treated everyone properly. His nickname

14 was Roko, as far as I know. As I say, he was correct.

15 Q. The person number 31, Krsto Krnojelac, was he there before the

16 war? And is he a relative of the accused?

17 A. Yes, he was also a relative. He was a cook before the war. And

18 as far as I know, he was retired before the war. But he again started

19 working as a cook in the KP Dom during the war.

20 Q. Number 32, Slavko Koroman, you have already mentioned him as

21 being your former colleague and also being there as a guard during the

22 detention. How did he treat you and other detainees?

23 A. I already said that when I was brought to the KP Dom, he was

24 already there. He was the one who was on duty and he was surprised to see

25 me brought in. He was decent but he didn't stay there for a long time.

1 Before the war he was supervisor of the guards, and he was retired just --

2 he went into retirement just before the war. But he started working again

3 during the war.

4 Q. And the next three guards, that would be number 34 to number 36,

5 were they there before the war and during the war? And how did they --

6 did any of them mistreat detainees?

7 A. Yes, all three of them worked before the war and during the war.

8 Milenko Elcic was decent; Vlatko Pljevaljcic wasn't; Zoran Lalovic is a

9 rather young man, I knew him from before, he was mostly decent. So out of

10 those three, only Vlatko mistreated the prisoners.

11 Q. When you say he was incorrect or he mistreated, what did you see

12 him do, or how do you know what he did?

13 A. Well, he would often use foul language directed at prisoners. He

14 would yell at them. And he was also very often on duty when people were

15 taken out for beatings.

16 Q. Does that mean he was one of the guards who took the detainees

17 from the rooms to the administration building?

18 A. Yes, from the rooms.

19 Q. Now, number 41, that's another guard. What can you tell us about

20 him? How did he treat the detainees?

21 A. As far as I know, he was decent, professional.

22 Q. And number 45, Milovan Vukovic?

23 A. He was one of the guards who were -- who did not behave properly

24 towards -- who did not treat the prisoners okay.

25 Q. What did he do?

1 A. He also verbally abused prisoners. He was insolent. And I also

2 know of one occasion when he kicked one of the prisoners who was a

3 disabled man.

4 Q. Number 46, Dragomir Obrenovic, what can you tell us about his

5 behaviour towards detainees?

6 A. He started working there at the same time as I did, so he started

7 working there before the war and continued working during the war. He

8 behaved decently towards me but not towards other prisoners. He would

9 also yell at them.

10 Q. Did you see him take detainees from their rooms to the beatings?

11 A. Yes, he would usually be on the shift when prisoners would be

12 taken out of their rooms to the gates.

13 Q. And the next person, number 47, how was his behaviour towards the

14 detainees?

15 A. (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 towards others.

18 Q. And number 48, Zoran Matovic?

19 A. Zoran Matovic is a young guard. He worked before the war, and

20 during the war he was one of those who was not decent. He was often in

21 the same shift as Dragomir Obrenovic.

22 Q. And the next two -- let's say the next four, actually, 49 to 52,

23 are these all guards? And is there any among them who mistreated

24 detainees, or were among those shifts taking detainees out?

25 A. Well, all of them are guards except Miro Prodanovic, who was a

1 supervisor of the guards. He had graduated from high school and he was

2 supervisor of the guards also during the war. Out of the four of them, I

3 can single out Radovan Vukovic as one of the abusive guards, one of the

4 worst guards among them -- among all the guards in the prison.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We seem to have a problem.

6 JUDGE HUNT: At least most of the things are working otherwise,

7 but we can't. Perhaps you can find out from the technical people what's

8 happening.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The technician is on his way. We don't know what

10 happened. Some power cut here.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps they haven't paid their bills. I think the

12 best thing to do is we'll adjourn until we've got the lights back on and

13 the screens working. We'll adjourn now. We won't adjourn.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15 Q. Witness, when you said he was one of the worst, what did he do?

16 A. He also worked on the shifts which most frequently took out

17 prisoners to be beaten. But on one occasion he also came to make some

18 lists, and when he made them, they were somehow cancelled, and some others

19 came. He would often yell at prisons; he was insolent.

20 Q. What do you mean by these lists? He came to make some lists.

21 What do you mean? What kind of list?

22 A. Lists for exchanges. Who want to be exchanged, he would come and

23 say. Then a commotion would be created. People would apply. Then he

24 would return in five or ten minutes and said that nothing would ever come

25 out of it. The lists were cancelled, a new list would be made, and some

1 totally different people would actually be exchanged.

2 Q. And the next two guards, 55 and 56, did they mistreat -- or any of

3 them mistreat detainees?

4 A. Jovo Savic, he worked there before the war and during the war as a

5 guard. As far as I know, he was rather crass and ill-behaved. And

6 Milenko Burilo, he was one of those who treated the inmates in the

7 penitentiary the worst.

8 Q. And 65 and 66?

9 A. Yes. Both were guards both before and during the war. As far as

10 I know, they behaved all right. Milivoje Milutinovic even for awhile went

11 to the mine together with us as a guard.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, there's a problem. Of course,

13 every time the witness mentions a name, you are referring to them only by

14 number, because if their names are there, they may be able to identify

15 this witness. Is this the reason why you're referring to numbers?

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it's only to help everybody to find the

17 proper line actually.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there's been a suggestion that we should be

19 redacting all these names in the transcript.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But why?

21 JUDGE HUNT: The suggestion has been made. I just wanted to know

22 whether we should be redacting them. You have no concern?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. I assume we'll hear these names

24 throughout this trial, and I only named here, as I said, it's better to

25 orient in the list.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if there are any names that you feel -- that

2 are mentioned that should be redacted, otherwise we'll just let them go.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

4 Q. The next two guards would be number 70 and 71. What can you tell

5 us about them?

6 A. Zoran Mijovic. Both of them were guards before the war, but Cedo

7 Rasevic was pensioned off before the war. They were guards before the

8 war, but they also went on working during the war. But they were all

9 right.

10 Q. I'm now talking about number 70. You mentioned to us that

11 Mr. Tesovic was the warden before the war, and when you look at the list,

12 it says for him, "Farm from August 1993, appointed director of farm

13 unit." Do you know anything about him being in the prison during your

14 detention?

15 A. No, he was not in the prison during the war. I never saw him in

16 the prison.

17 Q. And number 91 and number -- no, 91, yes. Number 91, how did this

18 guard treat the detainees?

19 A. He was also a guard before the war. As far as I know, he was

20 quite correct. At least he treated me all right.

21 Q. Number 92 says -- is another Krnojelac. Is that a relative of the

22 accused? And was he already in the prison working before the war?

23 A. Yes. He was a driver, a truck driver for the prison before the

24 war. He drove the truck which transported the furniture. And as far as I

25 know, yes, he is related to Milorad Krnojelac.

1 Q. And now the guards listed under 94 to 100, is there anybody among

2 them who mistreated detainees, or were they correct?

3 A. Misko Markovic, I don't know the man. I don't know that he was a

4 guard either before the war or during the war. He wasn't a guard there.

5 Vide Boskovic, likewise. Zoran Novovic, same thing. These were men who

6 did not work for the penitentiary before the war, and I did not used to

7 see him during the war. Dojcilo Davidovic, again, I did not see him

8 there. Slobodan Micevic, likewise. There was a guard whose last name was

9 Micevic but his first name was not Slobodan. Nebojsa Krunic, yes he did

10 work for the penitentiary before the war, but I did not see him during the

11 war. And Radivoje Jegdic, he worked for the penitentiary before the war.

12 He was not there in the early days before the war, but later on he

13 did turn up again and went back to his old job, that is, in the warehouse,

14 that is, at the place where we kept food supplies and toiletries.

15 Q. And number 102?

16 A. Milomir Maric, he was a guard before the war and during the war.

17 As far as I know, he was correct.

18 Q. And number 112?

19 A. Branko Stefanovic, I don't know him. He did not work in the

20 prison during the war.

21 Q. Numbers 116 and 117.

22 A. Milomir Adzic worked at the penitentiary before the war, and he

23 was the head of the building department, and later on during the war he

24 was still there. But he was not around in the early days of the war, at

25 least I did not see him then. Slavisa Prodanovic, as far as I know, that

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1 man was -- used to be a judge. He did not work for the penitentiary

2 before the war. He was in the court in Foca. But in the early days of

3 the war, yes, I used to see him as a guard at the penitentiary, at the

4 KP Dom.

5 Q. And when you say that Mr. Adzic was the head of the building, what

6 does that mean? "Head of the building," what duty did he have?

7 A. Not head of the building, building department. The building

8 department, that was a branch which was engaged in construction works, in

9 building, and he was the head of that department.

10 Q. And now the next two guards, 119, 120?

11 A. Jovo Dokic, he was not a guard before the war, but he was with the

12 security during the war. He worked at the furniture factory, and in the

13 early days of the war, the factory did not work, so he began to work there

14 as a guard. But when the factory went back to work, he went over too.

15 Q. Yes. And 120, you didn't mention anything about him.

16 A. Yes, I'm sorry. Before the war he was the guard -- chief of

17 guards, but then he was retired and he did not come to the KP Dom in the

18 beginning of the war. But later on, yes, he did turn up, and I used to

19 see him among the guards and he worked with them. He was correct.

20 Q. Numbers 130 and 132, were these guards before and during the war?

21 And did they behave correctly or incorrectly?

22 A. 130, yes, he was a guard before and during the war, but he did

23 not -- he was not there in the beginning of my detention. He turned up

24 later on. And he was quite decent. And likewise the other one, he

25 wasn't -- he did not really treat us particularly well, but I wouldn't say

1 he was amongst the worst. So he was somewhere in the middle.

2 Q. And you see the person number 133, Milutin Tijanic. Here in the

3 last column, you see deputy warden of KP Dom. What can you say about

4 this?

5 A. This man, he was the head of the rehabilitation service before the

6 war, that is, he was the boss for all those rehabilitation officers who

7 were involved in rehabilitating, reforming, convicts. I never saw this

8 man in the penitentiary during my detention there.

9 Q. And the last guard on the list is 135 [sic], what can you tell us

10 about him?

11 A. This is another guard, that is, before the war and during the war,

12 and in the beginning he was quite all right. But then his brother was

13 killed in combat and then his treatment of the prisoners radically changed

14 and he became very, how should I put it, he began to treat the detainees

15 very incorrectly.

16 THE COURT REPORTER: Number 135 or 145?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18 Q. When was that that the brother -- that this behaviour changed?

19 A. When his brother was killed, I don't really know when that was.

20 It was somewhere near Gorazde, on the front line towards Gorazde. And his

21 treatment of us changed 360 degrees.

22 Q. And what do you mean? Did he beat you or insult you? What kind

23 of change?

24 A. Well, he did not beat us, but in the early days he was quite

25 fair, quite correct. But later on he refused to talk to anyone and then

1 he would go into foul language and insult and do all sorts of things. I

2 did not see him beat anyone. He simply began to treat us in a completely

3 different way from the way that he behaved before.

4 Q. Yes. Thank you. You said that you were detained until October

5 1994. How many detainees were exchanged with you in October 1994?

6 A. Fifty-eight of us from the penitentiary in Foca were taken to Kula

7 in Sarajevo.

8 Q. And when were you actually exchanged there?

9 A. On the 6th of October, 1994. However, there was an incident at

10 Kula when we were to go towards the site of the exchange. Ten prisoners

11 were singled out and they were kept for another four or five days - I

12 don't know how many - but they were also exchanged eventually.

13 Q. Kula, was that another prison camp for Muslims?

14 A. Yes, it was yet another camp where Muslims were detained.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness, it is in the binders, in the trial binder, and it has

17 the identification number 266.

18 Q. And I would like you to look at it and tell us if this is the

19 certificate about your exchange.

20 A. Yes, this is the certificate of the state commission for exchange,

21 and this is a certificate showing when I was detained and when I was

22 exchanged.

23 Q. And what does it say about your time of detention and the exchange

24 date?

25 A. This certificate says that I was detained on the 20th of May, 1992

1 until the 6th of October, 1994. I have the original of this, I have it in

2 my pocket.

3 Q. Yes, but I don't think that we need it.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to enter it into evidence.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: The document 266 will become Exhibit P266, and it

8 will be under seal.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to show the witness another

10 certificate, and that is in the binder, in the trial binder, and it has

11 the identification number 265.

12 Q. And I would like you to have a look at it and tell us if this is

13 the certificate of the ICRC, referring to your detention time.

14 A. Yes. This certificate was issued by the International Committee

15 of the Red Cross. They put here the date when they entered me into their

16 books, and it says the 30th of August, 1992. So that was practically the

17 date when they received the list from the Serb side, but this is not the

18 correct date, the accurate date.

19 Q. But the date of your registering, the 14th of December [Realtime

20 read in error "September"] 1993, would that be correct?

21 A. Yes, yes, that is the accurate date when I was registered with the

22 Committee.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution also would like

24 to enter this document into evidence, and both documents need to be under

25 seal because the name of the witness is on it.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Document 265 will become Exhibit P265,

4 and it too will be under seal.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just -- Your Honour, I just noticed that in

6 the transcript it says September. It has to be December.

7 JUDGE HUNT: That's the translation that it came through. I

8 remember the September coming through on the translation.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Then I made a mistake, because it's my

10 question and I thought -- I wanted to say -- at least I wanted to 14

11 December. I may have said September by mistake.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Anyway, the document will speak for itself. I'm

13 sorry, the evidence will speak for itself from yesterday.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

15 Q. Witness, I would like to show you two photos. With the help of

16 the usher, it's again Exhibit 18, and it's the photo 7461 and the photo

17 7465.

18 Witness, the Prosecution visited KP Dom in June 1996, and among

19 the photos we took, there were the following two photos, and I would like

20 you to comment on the photos. The door first. Can you tell us what you

21 see on the door?

22 A. I see a coat of arms of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. Yes. And the next?

24 A. Again, it says "BiH," Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 Q. Witness, when you were in the KP Dom, when the war had broken out,

1 these few days you were in the KP Dom, did you see such graffiti, or even

2 did you do something yourself, doing this?

3 A. Oh, come on. No. Nor did I see anyone else write it or paint

4 it.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think one should ask the witness

8 first if he knows where is this, which are these premises, to identify the

9 place and everything else, to identify those places, if he can do that,

10 and then answer these questions.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think it's really necessary. But if you want

12 to ask -- all he wanted to -- all the question was had he ever seen

13 any graffiti like that. It wasn't whether he had seen that particular

14 graffiti. But if you want to have them identified, you haven't had them

15 identified yet, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, I do not intend to do that because

17 Mrs. Manas will exactly say which photo was taken, and it's very difficult

18 for the witness to look at the door and say, "That's the door of room so

19 and so." I mean, I don't do that. I only want him to talk about this

20 graffiti, and he said he didn't do it and he didn't see it.

21 Q. But we saw it in 1996 --

22 JUDGE HUNT: The question was perfectly permissible. You asked

23 him if he had ever seen graffiti like that --

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

25 JUDGE HUNT: -- and the objection is overruled.

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

2 Q. But, Witness, can you comment on the emblem on the door? Could

3 such an emblem been made in April 1992?

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's the crest, you mean?

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes, the crest. That's the other

6 photo, usher.

7 A. As far as I know, at that time the official symbol of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina was not this. It was adopted later on. But it was so

9 offensive to the Serbs that had it been drawn in 1992, the Serbs would

10 have removed it, would have erased it, because we know whenever one of us,

11 for instance, drew something or wrote something on a wall, they would come

12 and force us to remove it from the wall, to either scrape it or

13 something. So it's preposterous.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Please remove it. Thank you very

15 much.

16 Q. When did you meet your wife again after the war?

17 A. After the war, the first time I saw my wife and children was in

18 1996, September.

19 Q. When did she leave Foca? When did your family leave Foca?

20 A. She left Foca in July 1992. There was a convoy, there were buses,

21 and then she departed for Montenegro and ended up in Macedonia.

22 Q. Do you know what happened to your home in Pod Musala?

23 A. Pod Musala, that house is in one piece. It was not destroyed; it

24 was not burned down. And there's somebody living in it now. From what I

25 know, there's a Serb family living in that house now.

1 Q. Witness, you have described to us the physical results of the

2 starvation rations and also of the coldness. Did you suffer any permanent

3 physical results from your detention?

4 A. Why, no.

5 Q. And you have also described to us how you -- how each detainee was

6 afraid all the time when you heard the screaming and the beating. Did

7 that affect your mental health?

8 A. Yes, of course. Of course it did. I suppose if I went for a more

9 thorough checkup, that various anomalies might be found. But now I

10 feel -- I feel well now. I'm in good shape now, that's how I feel.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are the questions that

12 the Prosecution has.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I think that as it's three minutes to eleven, we'll

14 start you after the adjournment, Mr. Bakrac.

15 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.57 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Witness 139 will be

20 examined by my colleague, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, I would

22 like to introduce myself to the witness.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

24 Q. I am one of the Defence counsel for the accused. Good morning,

25 Witness. I would like to ask the witness about one of the circumstances

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1 which he stated -- which he described in his answers to the Prosecutor and

2 his statement given to the investigator of the Prosecutor's Office in 1996

3 and 1999. Have you given these statements?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Have you signed these statements?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Every page?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you -- have these statements been read out to you before you

10 signed them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Tell me, did you, in your conversations -- in your interviews with

13 the investigators of the Prosecution Office or the investigators in

14 Sarajevo, did you discuss membership in the SDS?

15 A. I don't remember discussing it with them.

16 Q. You don't remember saying that the accused was a member of the

17 executive board of the SDS?

18 A. I said it here in my testimony, but I don't know if I mentioned

19 it --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, when you are both speaking the same

21 language, you tend to get ahead of the translators. So would you wait at

22 the end of the answer before you ask the next question so that the

23 translators can catch up?

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will follow

25 the transcript to avoid further problems with this.

1 Q. You stated here that from the stories which circulated in the town

2 of Foca, you found out that the accused was a member of the executive

3 board of the SDS. Can you tell us about those stories?

4 A. Foca is a small place, and at that time, before the multiparty

5 elections, it was common knowledge who occupied which post in Foca. And

6 in conversations among people -- with the people we worked with, with our

7 neighbours, we found out even the things that we hadn't known before.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 is Milorad Krnojelac's neighbour in Foca.

12 Q. So based on what Miladin Matovic said, you concluded this?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You answered the Prosecutor that you saw the accused at the rally,

15 at the SDS rally, held in Foca and that you saw him on the podium.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you tell us, please, was this meeting held in 1988 or 1989, as

18 you said yesterday?

19 A. I said yesterday 1988 or 1989, but it is more probable that it was

20 in 1989.

21 Q. Do you know at which time of the year it was held?

22 A. It was autumn.

23 Q. Where was it held; do you know?

24 A. The town stadium.

25 Q. You stated that you attended this rally. Could you tell us where

1 the podium was located?

2 A. It was on the -- in the places for the audience who usually

3 watched the stadium.

4 Q. I suppose that the stadium in Foca had four sections for the

5 audience.

6 A. No, only one section.

7 Q. Please tell us, you said that the accused sat on the podium. In

8 whose company was he?

9 A. There was Radovan Karadzic and there were other visitors.

10 Q. Who sat next to the accused?

11 A. I don't remember that.

12 Q. On either side?

13 A. Neither side.

14 Q. Did you know anyone else there?

15 A. There were other citizens of Serb nationality who were on the

16 podium.

17 Q. Can you tell us who was there?

18 A. I can't remember that now. That was in 1989.

19 Q. Can I then conclude that you only remember the accused, that you

20 saw only him on the podium?

21 A. I saw also Mr. Karadzic.

22 Q. So it's the accused and Mr. Karadzic. Thank you.

23 Can you tell us in your interview with the investigators of the

24 Prosecution Office, did you say that you saw Savo Todovic at the

25 penitentiary at the time when you were there?

1 A. We discussed it, yes.

2 Q. Did you say that you heard Savo Todovic say to the guards on

3 several occasions that Milorad Krnojelac could not issue any orders to

4 him?

5 A. I don't remember saying that.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Would the usher kindly help the

7 Defence give one document to the witness.

8 THE REGISTRAR: May the registrar also be provided with a copy of

9 that, please.

10 JUDGE HUNT: If it's a statement, it will be in the trial

11 binders. Can you give us the number of it, please?

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] This is marked for identification

13 262A.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The question that will be asked refers

16 to page 4 of this statement.

17 Q. Have you read it? Can you please read to us what is written in

18 the fifth paragraph of this which begins with the words "I had the

19 impression ..."

20 A. "I was under --"

21 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Mr. Vasic, may we stop this

22 particular habit at the very outset? If you want to put it to him that he

23 has said something, put it to him yourself. Read it to him. Asking the

24 witness to read out their own statement makes no difference to the

25 evidentiary value at all. I don't know what the situation may be in your

1 country, but it will save us an awful lot of time if you just put to him

2 the particular part of it that you want him to accept that he had told the

3 investigators.

4 And may I say this also: The experience of this Tribunal has

5 taught me that the way in which the OTP takes its statements leaves

6 something to be desired. What happens, of course, is the witness gives

7 his version in B/C/S. It is translated at the time by a translator and

8 what is recorded in the document which is eventually signed is the

9 translation into English of what the witness had said to the OTP in

10 B/C/S. After that there is a B/C/S version of that English statement made

11 and it is not always the same as what the witness said, because there have

12 been two translations involved in it. So I'm giving you fair warning that

13 we may run into that problem here. I don't know. But it's best to have

14 it out in the open. That is the way in which the OTP takes its

15 statements, and we just have to live with it.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The Defence

17 appreciates the problems related to the taking of statements.

18 Q. I will now read this part which is relevant to my question. On

19 page 4, paragraph 5, the witness says: "I was under the impression --"

20 thank you very much. I will read very slowly.

21 "I was under the impression that Todovic runs the prison as he

22 pleases. Sometimes I heard him say to the guards that he didn't care

23 about Krnojelac and that he, Krnojelac, could not issue orders to him,

24 Todovic."

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would now like to ask the

1 witness whether he had, indeed, stated this and whether he signed the

2 statement.

3 A. I probably stated that, but it says here "sometimes," not

4 always. Sometimes in his fits of rage, when he would run out of -- lose

5 self-control, in situations such as those when he verbally abused me or

6 locked me up in solitary confinement.

7 Q. May I now quote another sentence to the witness. It says:

8 "Todovic behaved as if he were the boss when Zekovic returned to KP

9 Dom."

10 A. Yes, I said that yesterday. It seemed as if he were -- as if he

11 had been the boss.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I was just wondering, I tried to

14 follow Mr. Vasic and I didn't actually find the reference, because the

15 reference that I found is quite a different one.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. The first passage he read was on

17 page 4 of the English version, the third paragraph on that page, and it

18 was roughly in the terms that he read and was translated for us.

19 The next part, I agree with you, I have no idea where it comes

20 from, because according to the English version, it says: "Todovic acted

21 like he was in charge, but Krnojelac was standing right there with him."

22 And then another one: "In 1993, after Krnojelac left and Sekulovic was

23 appointed head of KP Dom, conditions improved." Now, was that the passage

24 that you were reading to him?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this part mentioning the

1 year 1993 is just below. In the B/C/S version, it says: "Todovic acted

2 as if he were man number 1." And the witness now said that he had stated

3 this earlier today.

4 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, that wasn't the point that the Prosecution is

5 raising. You purported to read out from a document what was said in that

6 document. We are trying to find it in the English version because it

7 seems that you may have given a summary of it rather than reading it out,

8 and the Prosecution is entitled to know whether you put it to the witness

9 correctly. Now, are you able to tell us where in relation to that

10 statement, along these lines, "Todovic acted like he was in charge but

11 Krnojelac was standing right there with him," where in relation to that

12 passage was the next one that you read?

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] That paragraph is just below the

14 paragraph I had quoted before, and it starts with the words, "Once when

15 Ekrem Zekovic escaped."

16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, perhaps you might mark it on your copy. It can

17 be shown to the Prosecution, and then find it in the document to see

18 whether or not you have read it accurately. The Prosecution is entitled

19 to check the accuracy of what you're reading.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it is actually -- it is the next

21 paragraph, but Mr. Vasic read only half of one sentence of this paragraph,

22 and I think it's not fair to put it in this way to the witness, because

23 the witness was describing in this paragraph, which has to be seen in

24 context, was describing the situation when Ekrem Zekovic had actually

25 escaped and was recaptured, and in this relation, in relation of this,

1 what happened after he was recaptured, it is said here: "Todovic acted

2 like he was in charge," and the witness is referring to this particular

3 situation, and then says, "Todovic acted like he was in charge but

4 Krnojelac was standing right there with him."

5 JUDGE HUNT: I know, I've seen that, and I've pointed it out to

6 him that he must read it in context.

7 Now, Mr. Vasic, you don't want to face charges that you've been

8 unfair with the witness. It is best, if I may say so, if you read the

9 whole of a particular context.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I certainly do not want

11 to be accused of anything like that. But if the Prosecutor followed the

12 transcript, we precisely mentioned this incident with Zekovic, and the

13 witness answered about this context related to Zekovic, and it can be --

14 it is obvious from the witness' answer.

15 JUDGE HUNT: May I also add that the English version of this

16 statement has different pagination to the B/C/S version. So it might be a

17 good idea when you're going to read from a particular passage that you

18 tell us how the particular paragraph in which that passage appears

19 commences, and we can all follow it and see whether or not the proper

20 context has been put.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will do

22 that. With your leave, I would like to continue.

23 Q. Witness, you spoke about the organisation of the KP Dom in

24 peacetime and the security that was in place then. Can you tell us

25 whether on the towers that you mentioned, whether there were any guards

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1 there in peacetime?

2 A. Yes, in peacetime there were always guards on the towers.

3 Q. How were they armed?

4 A. They all had their personal weapons, sidearms, which meant a

5 pistol, and there was always a semi-automatic rifle installed on the

6 tower.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether the guards within the compound carried

8 weapons?

9 A. Never.

10 Q. You stated that on these towers, after the military operations,

11 when you were detained there, there were no guards.

12 A. Only in -- during a brief period before the compound was mined.

13 Q. Can you tell us whether the guards within the compound carried

14 weapons at that time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What kind of weapons?

17 A. They had both guns and rifles.

18 Q. Let's come back to the part when you were detained in the KP Dom

19 and when you were explaining the layout of the administrative building and

20 the corridor which passes by the visitors' room.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] May I ask that this photograph be

22 shown to the witness, from Exhibit 18, photograph number 0045. The upper

23 part of the photograph. Please raise it a little.

24 Q. You said that this photograph shows the corridor which leads to

25 the censorship room and the visitors' room. You said the warden had to

1 pass through to get to his office.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Tell us whether the other staff who worked on this floor of the

4 administrative building had to pass through this corridor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many people worked in this area?

7 A. You mean before the war?

8 Q. Yes, I mean before the war.

9 A. Perhaps 40 to 50 people.

10 Q. And in wartime?

11 A. Perhaps seven, eight, but no more than ten people.

12 Q. Were there any women among them?

13 A. No, not in the beginning. There was later one woman who worked in

14 the cafeteria.

15 Q. In the administration?

16 A. No. There were none.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, you read out the number of that photograph

19 as just 0045. The Prosecution has been referring throughout to the last

20 four digits, and so that the transcript will assist us later, that was the

21 photograph 7445 on it.

22 THE INTERPRETER: I got it wrong probably.

23 JUDGE HUNT: As long as the transcript helps us. Thank you.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Will the usher kindly show the

25 witness, from Exhibit 18, photograph 7513.

1 Q. On this photograph, we can see one part of the prisoners'

2 quarters. Can you tell us which part it is?

3 A. This is the right-hand side of the building containing Rooms 16 to

4 22 and isolation cells 19 to 23.

5 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to ask you. Can you show us where

6 these rooms are by numbers? Perhaps it's best to go from the ground

7 floor.

8 A. Certainly. When we enter the building, we take these stairs and

9 enter the building. On the right-hand side there is the guards' office;

10 on the left-hand side there is Room 16, on the ground floor. On the

11 right-hand side, behind the guards' office, is the section containing

12 solitary confinement cells. On this side, and on the other side of the

13 building which we cannot see.

14 Upstairs there are Rooms 18 and 19. The next floor contains Rooms

15 20 and 21, and on the uppermost floor are Rooms 22, and in the right wing,

16 Room 23.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Will the usher now please show the

19 witness from the same exhibit photograph 7422 -- or 7442.

20 Q. Do you see a vehicle on this photograph?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. On the road?

23 A. This is the road leading from the KP Dom to the hospital. Sorry.

24 This is on the other side, on the other bank of the river. The KP Dom is

25 on the other bank.

1 Q. Is this photograph taken from across the road from the KP Dom?

2 A. From the other bank of the River Drina.

3 Q. But there is also a road.

4 A. Yes, there is also the road leading to Gorazde.

5 Q. Don't you think the photograph was taken from a higher ground than

6 the road?

7 A. Perhaps a few metres.

8 Q. Can you describe, please, what you see from this position of the

9 photograph of the interior of the KP Dom?

10 A. From the interior of the KP Dom, we can see the prisoners'

11 quarters, a part of it, and we can see a part of the building of the

12 furniture factory.

13 Q. Can you tell us, please, which part of the prisoners' quarters we

14 can see?

15 A. We see the left part of the building.

16 Q. What is inside that part of the building?

17 A. Rooms 11, 13, the hospital.

18 Q. What specifically do you see from this building?

19 A. We see the part containing the hospital.

20 Q. Please look more closely. The right-hand side where the trees

21 are, we see a bigger part of the building. What is it?

22 A. That is Room 22 or 23. You cannot -- I cannot see clearly.

23 Q. Is this room located on the uppermost floor of this wing?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

1 help us show the witness another photograph, that is, photograph 7529 and

2 7528. I am mentioning them in the sequence in which the questions will be

3 asked.

4 Q. Is this a photograph showing the bridge and the KP Dom?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can we agree that it was taken from the end of the bridge and near

7 the road going by the River Drina?

8 A. I can see that it was taken from the road.

9 Q. What can you see on this photograph?

10 A. I can see the bridge and, across the bridge, the KP Dom.

11 Q. Out of all the structures of the KP Dom, what can you see?

12 A. From the left to the right, we see the metal workshop.

13 Q. I'm sorry. I meant the interior of the KP Dom.

14 A. We see the prisoners' quarters, what we can see of it through the

15 trees. It's the right wing of the building but we can barely see it. And

16 we can see the entire floor of the left wing.

17 Q. You said it was the hospital.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, how many windows can be seen on this right side?

20 You said it was Room 23.

21 A. It was 22 or 23. They're both on the same floor.

22 Q. How many windows can you see?

23 A. Well, I can't see any windows.

24 Q. On the right-hand side, next to the trees.

25 A. I can see three windows.

1 Q. These three windows, can they be seen in their entirety?

2 A. Well, I cannot say that.

3 Q. Thank you. Please, if you can take this off and let us see the

4 other photograph. Thank you.

5 Can you please tell us what can be seen on this photograph?

6 A. Well, as far as I can see, that is the roof of the administrative

7 building.

8 Q. Exactly. That is the roof of the administrative building. Can

9 you see anything beyond the roof?

10 A. We can see the opposite bank of the Drina and a part of the

11 bridge.

12 Q. What part of the bridge?

13 A. Very little of it.

14 Q. But which part of the bridge? Is it the part where the vehicles

15 move or the arches.

16 A. A small part of the arches.

17 Q. Can you see the Drina River?

18 A. Very little of it. The opposite bank.

19 Q. According to the description received by the Defence, this is a

20 photograph taken from Room 23. Can you tell us whether it is possible for

21 this photograph to have been taken from Room 23?

22 A. Yes, it is possible.

23 Q. Now I should like to ask you something about persons, the list of

24 which you were shown yesterday by the Prosecution, and that was the

25 Schedule C to the amended indictment.

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] So could the witness please be shown

2 the list.

3 Q. You told us -- you told the Court that you knew some of the

4 persons from this list, that you saw them in the beginning and that then

5 they disappeared. Could you tell us, where were those people at the time

6 when you did see them, that is, which rooms?

7 A. Well, I can tell you about some of them but not all of them. I

8 really don't know the numbers of rooms in which they were kept. But they

9 were all in the KP Dom.

10 Q. But can you tell us, where did you see them?

11 A. I can tell you that I saw Esad Kiselica in Room 14; Halim Konjo

12 also. Do you want me to read them all out?

13 Q. Yes, only those that you know.

14 A. Yes, of course, the ones that I mentioned. So Adil Granov, I do

15 not where I used to see him, in the column waiting for lunch, but I don't

16 know which room he was kept. I've already told you about these two. Fuad

17 Mandzo, I knew him, but I don't know in which room he was. Krunoslav

18 Marinovic, I think he was in Room 13 but I'm not sure. Nurko Nisic, as

19 far as I know, was in Room 14. Seval Soro, I think it was Room 11. Kemal

20 Tulek was in the group which was brought from Velecevo. They were all put

21 up in Room 20. And Uzunovic was in Room 11. Dzemal Vahida, I don't know

22 the room. Veiz Munib was in Room 14, and Zulfo, I don't know.

23 Q. As you told us, you were in Rooms 18, 21, and 15. How did you see

24 those persons who were in other rooms, rooms other than yours?

25 A. Well, you can see Room 14 through the window of Room 18, from the

1 right-hand dormitory.

2 Q. And what about Room 20?

3 A. That is above Room 18. I could see people go for lunch and come

4 back from it.

5 Q. And what about Room 11?

6 A. You can also see Room 11 through the window of Room 18.

7 Q. Thank you. And on the basis of which facts, what makes you

8 conclude that these people are missing?

9 A. Because they are missing, because they are gone, and I know that

10 they were in the KP Dom and they were taken out. I know that these people

11 were taken out to be beaten and never came back.

12 Q. Yesterday you said that all those that you knew who had been taken

13 out for beating were brought back.

14 A. Not all of them came back, and I think we named -- we gave the

15 names of all those who came back. But I did not say about Kiselica, that

16 I knew that he had come back from beating, and about Halim and others,

17 same thing again.

18 Q. But when you say they're gone, they're missing, this is a very

19 general term. How is it that you know that they are missing?

20 A. From what I learned from their families, because when I was

21 exchanged, many people called me by telephone and asked me about those

22 men.

23 Q. Thank you. Now I should like to ask you something about what you

24 told the Court today. You said that you would see the accused from time

25 to time accompanied by an officer, and you told us his name was Boro

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1 Ivanovic. Did you tell the investigators of the Prosecutor's Office, or

2 before that, did you say that you could not remember who was that

3 particular officer that you had seen?

4 A. Perhaps, because I know the man. But perhaps his name would

5 escape me. At times I would simply forget.

6 Q. Yes, I understand that. But how is it that since 1999 when you

7 stated that, to this day, you have suddenly remembered that it was Boro

8 Ivanovic?

9 A. Well, listen, in '94, I believe, in the statement I gave to the

10 police, I think I did mention Boro then, as far as I can remember now.

11 Q. But you did not mention him in this context, did you? And then on

12 the other side, you told the investigators of the Tribunal that you could

13 not remember who was that uniformed individual accompanying the accused.

14 A. Well, perhaps I could not remember him at that particular moment,

15 but I knew what that was about.

16 Q. No. All I'm asking you is did something happen between 1999 and

17 these days to jog your memory?

18 A. No, nothing.

19 Q. Thank you. Now I should like to ask you something in relation to

20 the very beginning, to the outbreak of the conflict in Foca. You told us

21 that you did not take part in the fighting then and that you were not a

22 member of any military formations, didn't you?

23 A. Yes, yes, quite so.

24 Q. Thank you. Did you tell the investigators or, rather, the police

25 investigators in Sarajevo, did you tell them that together with ten other

1 Muslims from Donje Polje, you returned and took over the KP Dom?

2 A. I don't think so. But they did not ask me that. And I never took

3 over the KP Dom. I was every day in that group of men. I came with them,

4 and all I did was show them the layout of the KP Dom.

5 Q. And did you tell those same police authorities that after you came

6 to the KP Dom, you broke into the arms storage room and that you took so

7 many rifles, a large quantity of ammunition, bullets, and things like

8 that?

9 A. I don't know if I stated that or not. But it is a fact that the

10 arms storage was broken into and that the Muslims took those weapons.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to --

12 unfortunately, I do not have a copy to show the Prosecutor and Your

13 Honours. That was the statement made by the accused to the police

14 authorities on the 14th of December, 1994.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Mr. Vasic, is that a mistake in

16 the translation? Because what we have and what is also in the binders is

17 a statement 14 October 1994. You said 14 December, at least we heard it

18 in English.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I really don't know. Could the

20 witness, please, because I gave him my copy of the statement, will he

21 please read the date?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, for your --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 14th of October, 1994. The 14th

24 of October, 1994, that is the correct date.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is document 263.

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I should like to thank my learned

3 friend.

4 Q. My question to the witness is: Is this his statement, and did he

5 sign this statement?

6 A. Yes, this is my signature, and that is my statement.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour. I

9 have no further questions.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any re-examination?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MUMBA: I have two questions for the witness.

13 Questioned by the Court:

14 JUDGE MUMBA: Witness, you were an official in the prison at KP

15 Dom before the war started, and after the war you found yourself in KP Dom

16 as a detainee, and amongst some of the officials who were dealing with you

17 in your capacity as a detainee were your former colleagues, officials of

18 the KP Dom whom you worked with. How did this make you feel?

19 A. How do I explain it? I don't know. I felt awkward. It was an

20 embarrassing situation.

21 JUDGE MUMBA: The second question is: You said that you and other

22 detainees were taken to go and work underground in the mines, and you

23 described how one of your fellow detainees was injured. I wanted to find

24 out: Were you given any protective clothing, for instance, protective

25 boots?

1 A. Yes, we had rubber boots.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Does either party wish to ask any questions arising

3 out of Judge Mumba's questions?

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic?

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. No, thank you.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Vasic, before the witness goes, I want to

8 ask you what you propose to do with this statement of the 14th of

9 October. You just had it identified. You asked the witness a number of

10 questions about whether he had said the various things to the police.

11 Now, if you propose later on to ask us to look at that statement and it

12 has something in contradiction of what the witness has said, fairness

13 demands that you put that to the witness now to give him the opportunity

14 of explaining or denying what you are putting. But if you don't propose

15 to use this statement, which is document 263, later on, there's no need to

16 do so.

17 Could you please explain what you're going to do with it?

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] This document shows the inconsistency

19 between what the witness said today and what he told the investigators of

20 the Sarajevo police. That was the exhibit of the Prosecution, but they

21 did not tender it into evidence in this case.

22 JUDGE HUNT: The question is whether you are going to tender it

23 into evidence. And if you are, you must give this witness the opportunity

24 of explaining any inconsistencies that you suggest to him. That's a

25 question of simple fairness.

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Just a

2 moment.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The Defence suggests that the exhibit

5 number 263 -- proposes to -- wishes to tender in evidence the Exhibit 263,

6 and ...

7 JUDGE HUNT: And what?

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] We drew the attention of the witness

9 that there were inconsistencies between what he said and what is written

10 here, and we'd like the witness to explain how did these come about.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, may I suggest you put those passages to him.

12 It is for him to say whether it correctly records what he said, and if it

13 does, he may have some explanation for it. But if you don't give him the

14 opportunity to do so, it would be manifestly unfair to the witness. So

15 may I suggest to you that you put to the witness the particular parts you

16 want him to explain, and he should have, of course, the original, or at

17 least the B/C/S version, in front of him when you are putting it to him.

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Could the usher then please give the Defence back the copy of the

20 statement of the 14th of October, which the witness now has, so that I

21 could show him these inconsistencies that we are referring to.

22 Further cross-examination by Mr. Vasic:

23 Q. On page 1 of the statement made on the 14th of October, 1994, in

24 the Security Services Centre in Sarajevo, which was made by the exchanged

25 (redacted) --

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, that is unforgivable. You know that this

2 witness has a pseudonym.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I must

4 have stage fever.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, it will be redacted, the reference to the

6 name.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I do

8 apologise once again.

9 Q. The statement says, this is the passage beginning with the words,

10 "On the 10th of April, 1992, the warden of the KP Dom in the women's

11 part ..." So this is the passage.

12 "On the 10th of April ..." and I should like to show it to the

13 witness, that part. It says: "I went home and took an automatic rifle

14 with some 200 bullets with me, and the official pistol.

15 JUDGE HUNT: What page are you reading from?

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 1 of the

17 statement, of the 14th of October, 1994.

18 JUDGE HUNT: And how does the paragraph commence in which this

19 passage appears?

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] It begins with the words "On the 10th

21 of April, 1992 ..." And it is a part of this paragraph.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I don't profess to be able to read B/C/S, but

23 even in the B/C/S document, it talks about the 12th of April, because it's

24 in figures. Have you got a different version?

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No. This is one passage and it says,

1 "The 10th of April ..." It is four lines above the 12th of April, and it

2 is quite correct, it says down there in the lower passage, it says the

3 12th of April.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just noticed, looking at the B/C/S version,

7 I actually have a B/C/S version here at hand which is not 263. There is

8 actually -- the document I have here at hand which Mr. Bakrac is referring

9 to actually has a four-line paragraph starting, "Dana 10 April 1992 ..."

10 but in the document that was tendered in the binders, this paragraph does

11 not show. And also in the translation it does not show. And I'm now

12 really at a loss. I don't know.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Is the document that you have there in your hand a

14 signed copy? Because the document we have in the binders is. That's the

15 original in B/C/S, it has been signed.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, it is.

17 JUDGE HUNT: So there are two versions of it, are there?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I really don't know what this is now.

19 I cannot solve it now. This paragraph looks identical, but this little

20 paragraph is not in this document tendered, and it's also not in the

21 translation. So I don't know what the difference comes from.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have a translation of the document that you

23 have in your hand?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This one with this paragraph that Mr. Vasic

25 is referring to, I don't have a translation, and I don't know where this

1 comes from now.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps we should ask which one the witness has. If

3 the usher could just show us the copy that the witness has to see if it's

4 the same document that is in the binder or the same document that

5 Mr. Vasic has.

6 They are very different typing, and both of them are signed. So

7 I'm not quite sure what you're going to do. The important thing is that

8 the witness has the same document that Mr. Vasic is cross-examining him

9 on, whether we've got it or not.

10 Yes, the one that the Prosecution has sent up to the bench is the

11 same one that Mr. Vasic has. But what we need, I think, is a translation

12 of that particular paragraph. What do you suggest, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it should be read out loud by

14 Mr. Vasic, and then we'll hear what it means.

15 JUDGE HUNT: A very sensible suggestion.

16 Mr. Vasic, will you --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, Your Honour, could that particular

18 passage be placed on the ELMO because the interpreters do not have a copy

19 of it.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, thank you very much. It will be placed on the

21 ELMO so that the translators have got it and they can read it out to us.

22 That would be the simplest thing.

23 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, if your copy could be put onto the ELMO, then

24 the translators have got it.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. But will the usher please make sure

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1 that the name of the witness cannot be seen. The upper paragraph should

2 not be seen.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Now, "Dana 10.04.1992," that's the paragraph; is that

4 right?

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will start below this.

6 I simply wanted to indicate which passage it was. And I shall quote the

7 fragment from the part which starts, "Ja sam otiso," which means I went

8 home.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Can the translators see it?

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] It is the third line down below the

11 date of the 12th of April, and the sentence begins with "Ja sam" these are

12 the first two words of the sentence.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Can the translators see that on the ELMO?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. You may proceed then.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 "I went home and took with me the AP with some 200 bullets and the

18 official pistol. Immediately after that with some ten other Muslims from

19 Donje Polje, we went back and took the KPD. On that occasion we broke

20 into the arms store room and from it took several dozen rifles, mostly AP

21 carbines, Thompsons, and four Breda machine-guns, as well as a large

22 quantity of 7.9 millimetre bullets weighing about 1 metric tonne. We

23 began to distribute the weapons and ammunition among the unarmed -- to the

24 unarmed population who had come to the KPD of their own volition, and the

25 distribution was interrupted by Senad Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja, who

1 arrived then, and in all likelihood, he took the above weapons and

2 ammunition in a truck. He took away the above-mentioned weapons and

3 ammunition in a truck."

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is the passage that

5 I wanted to quote to the witness.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, do you want to now ask the witness what he has

7 to say about that passage that you read to him?

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness, could you please explain to us if this is your statement

10 and if this is what you signed?

11 A. I suppose so.

12 Q. But it does not agree with what you told us here about your

13 participation in the conflict.

14 A. Yes, it is a slight variance with what I said, because I never

15 took part in the fighting. As you read this, I went home and took the

16 rifle and a pistol, and that was my official weapons, because we were all

17 issued in the penitentiary with a rifle and a pistol. Those were the

18 official weapons.

19 Q. So how can you explain this inconsistency between what you are

20 telling us here and what you told the police?

21 A. Well, it doesn't say anywhere here that I was the one who

22 distributed the weapons or broke into this. It only says that with about

23 ten other Muslims, I went to the KP Dom, to the penitentiary, and I said

24 it yesterday too and -- that is, today. And they did break into the arms

25 storage room, which is a fact, that it was broken into, and there were

1 quite a lot of weapons because it was kept for the reserve force.

2 Q. But is it accurate, what it says here?

3 A. Yes. But according to this, I have become a soldier, whereas I

4 was not a soldier at the time.

5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not have any further

6 questions. That is all. Thank you, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Do you wish to re-examine on that,

8 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

10 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

11 Q. I would like to ask the witness: In the part that was just read

12 to you, it actually always says, "We, we, we". So this at least sounds as

13 if you were among the ten men who broke into the weapons storage and who

14 distributed. Would that be -- can you explain why it says we, and here

15 you say that you were actually among the ten and "I did not actually

16 distribute and I did not break in"? Can you explain?

17 A. Well, I thought that we had dealt with this yesterday. I went

18 along with that group with one purpose only, to show them the layout of

19 the KP Dom, and then I returned to Donje Polje, to my parents' home.

20 Q. And so when it says "we distributed, we took out these weapons, we

21 broke in," that is actually a misunderstanding then, and you meant these

22 people and in the beginning you were with them; is that correct?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. Leading the witness --

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, it certainly is leading the witness,

25 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You can ask him to explain, but you are not permitted

1 to put the explanation to him and ask him if he agrees with it.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, Your Honour. Sorry. It's a little

3 bit awkward now.

4 Q. Can you explain how this is meant?

5 A. It says throughout the statement "we" and "they." I meant the

6 Muslims, meaning that when they took over the KP Dom, I meant the Muslims

7 took over the KP Dom, whereas I returned to Donje Polje after I had been

8 to the KP Dom.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir. You may leave now. But

11 you had better wait until we get the blinds down, but you are then free to

12 go.

13 Now, whilst we're changing over witnesses, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we

14 have been -- are we going to have FWS-65 now?

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, and this witness will be

16 led by my colleague, and he does not ask for any protective measures.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to ask that, because he gave evidence in

18 Kunarac without them and we can now leave out the FWS-65 from the

19 transcript.

20 Ms. Kuo, we have been informed by the Victims and Witnesses Unit

21 or Service, whatever they call themselves now, that he has had some

22 further health problems since he gave evidence. May I suggest that you

23 say to him when he commences that if he has any problems with his health,

24 he should not hesitate to let us know. I think it will be better coming

25 from you than from us. He may be embarrassed about it. That's all.

1 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll do that

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE HUNT: The other thing I'd ask, when you're going to call

4 one of these witnesses and you're going to use this transcript, can you

5 tell us the day before so we can have a chance to read through what you

6 have read through and what the Defence has read through? I remember this

7 man's evidence quite well, but it's better to refresh our recollection

8 before he gives evidence.

9 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. We thought we had indicated that by

10 giving the weekly letter to both the bench and the Defence counsel.

11 JUDGE HUNT: But you didn't indicate which one it was we were

12 going to use the evidence for. I recognised the number, that's all. But

13 it would be best if you told us at least the day before that you were

14 going to tender the evidence given in the Kunarac case so that we can have

15 a look through it.

16 MS. KUO: We can do that, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the other thing too, I don't know whether this

18 is an issue or not, but you will recall some photographs were shown to the

19 last witness which had a tree hiding the view. You will recall that this

20 witness we're going to have now, who was called FWS-65, is an expert on

21 trees, and he may be able to identify the tree for us and to say how

22 quickly it grows. I don't whether that's an issue or not.

23 MS. KUO: Your Honour has correctly predicted the Prosecution's

24 intentions. We have the photographs ready for him.

25 JUDGE HUNT: When were those photographs taken? That's something

1 we should really know. I know that you were going to call that witness

2 earlier and were unable to do so, but if we could just have the

3 identification now.

4 MS. KUO: June 1996.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have only one request of a

9 technical nature. The usher took the photographs from our binder and he

10 took them and put them on his desk. When the usher comes back, could we

11 please ask him to give us back our photographs?

12 JUDGE HUNT: Most certainly.

13 MS. KUO: Your Honour, perhaps while we're waiting for the witness

14 to be brought in, I can go ahead and tender his prior transcript and

15 testimony. I assume that we don't actually need the witness here for

16 that.

17 JUDGE HUNT: No, no.

18 MS. KUO: So I would propose to enter what has been marked in the

19 trial binders with identification number 123, which is the transcript, and

20 have that tendered into evidence -- excuse me, I'm sorry, as well as

21 what's now been provided to the registrar and identified as 123A which

22 consists of four videotapes of that very same testimony in the B/C/S

23 language. And because that's the translation of the original -- of the

24 123, we call it 123A.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE HUNT: The problem with only tendering the B/C/S is that if

2 we need to go back and look at it, it may be a little difficult.

3 MS. KUO: We could ask the audiovisual to provide an English copy

4 as well.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You haven't got one?

6 MS. KUO: Not in the videotape version, only in the transcript.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Let's worry about that if it arises. I think we

8 could probably organise that ourselves.

9 Anyway, the witness is here, so let's have him make the solemn

10 declaration first.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: SAFET AVDIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

16 Is there any objection, first of all, to the transcript, which is

17 document 123?

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. We accepted it at the Pre-Trial

19 Conference. There is no reason to detract from that.

20 JUDGE HUNT: And the tape, the videotape, 123A, you are content

21 with that to go into evidence as well?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The same thing as

23 with the transcript, we do not object.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, they'll be Exhibits P123 and 123A.

25 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.

1 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

3 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Could you please state your name?

4 A. Good afternoon. My name is Safet Avdic. I was born in Cajnice in

5 1940.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Avdic. I understand that you are experiencing some

7 health problems; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, I have health problems. On the 5th of May, I had a heart

9 surgery and I have a built-in defibrillator, a device regulating the work

10 of the heart in case of problems. When I got out of prison, I also

11 experienced problems. I had several surgeries for skin cancer, and those

12 were almost open wounds which appeared during my time in the KP Dom, in

13 Foca, because there was no -- there were no means to maintain hygiene, no

14 toiletries, no hot water, no heating during the winter of 1992/1993, so --

15 Q. Mr. Avdic, we'll get to the details of what happened while you

16 were in KP Dom in a few minutes. I wanted to ask you a preliminary

17 question about your health to let you know that if you are experiencing

18 any problems on the witness stand, to let us know and we can take a

19 break. Do you understand that?

20 A. Yes, thank you. For the moment, I'm okay.

21 Q. But you'll let us know if you need to take a break, and don't be

22 embarrassed about it, okay?

23 A. Right. Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Avdic, just one other -- something to let you know ahead of

25 time. During the course of your testimony, I may be referring to some

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1 prior testimony that you gave, and I may also be referring to some prior

2 statements that you gave. If at some point I make reference to something

3 and you don't remember, you can just ask to look at it, okay? It's okay

4 for you to ask me to show you something if you don't remember.

5 A. Right. Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Avdic, you've already testified in this court -- before this

7 Court in another case, and I won't ask you to repeat what you have said

8 there. Everybody has the transcript. And in fact you yourself reviewed

9 the videotape of that testimony; isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I would like to ask you some more details about some of the things

12 that you said, as well as ask for your additional testimony.

13 When you were taken to KP Dom, what room were you taken to at

14 first?

15 A. First I was taken to Room 18.

16 Q. And in your prior testimony, I will give the transcript number so

17 those who are interested can find it, but in your testimony, at transcript

18 page 685, you said that there were mattresses in that room but no beds.

19 Can you explain what you meant by "no beds"?

20 A. Mattresses filled with sponge, laid down on the floor, one by the

21 other, whereas beds denote bed frames with springs on them on which such

22 mattresses are supposed to be put. I don't know if I made it clear

23 enough.

24 Q. When the mattresses were all laid out on the floor, did that leave

25 room for anything else, or was it very crowded as a result?

1 A. There was no room left for anything else. Only between the two

2 rows, because there were two rows of such mattresses, you could pass in

3 the middle between them. Two and two, mattresses were put together, and

4 then there was a small space between the next two, so a person could

5 approach a mattress and lie down.

6 Q. How long were you kept in Room 18?

7 A. Perhaps about 50 days I spent in Room 18, that is, until the

8 arrival of a group of men from Jelec who were brought from a camp in

9 Bileca to Foca. A couple of days after their arrival, I alone was

10 transferred to Room 20 where people from Jelec were kept. I was

11 transferred from Room 18.

12 Q. You yourself are not from Jelec; right?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know -- were you given an explanation why you were

15 transferred to this other room?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How long did you stay in Room 20; do you remember that?

18 A. At least two months. Two or three months.

19 Q. And do you recall which months those were?

20 A. It was a summer month. Perhaps towards the end. June, July,

21 August.

22 Q. Was Room 20 different from Room 18 in its layout and

23 accommodations?

24 A. No. The layout and accommodations were the same.

25 MS. KUO: Now, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to

1 have this witness shown, from Exhibit P18, two photographs; one is 7484

2 and the other one is 7503. They're both on the bottom pages.

3 Q. Now, looking first at 7484, can you describe what that is? And

4 you don't need to tell us the specific room number if you don't recognise

5 it, but just in general what it is.

6 A. On this photograph, we can see bunk beds, bunk beds without

7 mattresses. On the right-hand side we see lockers for clothing of former

8 inmates from the earlier, regular operation of the KP Dom. And down there

9 are the doors, the entrance.

10 Q. And just to clarify. What kind of room is this that we're looking

11 at? Was it a part of the rooms where the prisoners were kept?

12 A. This could be the anteroom where they kept the inmates or a part

13 of the living area where inmates were also kept but didn't sleep there;

14 they slept in bedrooms, in dormitories. Whereas the area in front of the

15 living area and the living area itself were not used for sleeping.

16 Q. Is it fair to say, then, that this appears to be a room that would

17 be a shared room in these rooms that you've identified by number, like 18

18 or 20; that they were bedrooms and that this is a shared room and not a

19 bedroom; a common room, you could say?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You pointed out these lockers. Were the lockers there when you

22 were taken to the KP Dom?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you find anything in the lockers in the rooms, either 18 or

25 20?

1 A. In this area before you entered the living areas, not in all

2 rooms, there was a section where the TV set used to stand, and there were

3 some. But most of these lockers were in the anteroom, just before the

4 living area. Both the living area and the anteroom are shared rooms for

5 all of the four bedrooms.

6 Q. Did you find anything inside those lockers?

7 A. They were empty when I came in this room, where I arrived.

8 Q. Do you know if other detainees found some items of clothing that

9 were left there by previous prisoners?

10 A. Yes, in other rooms.

11 Q. But not in the rooms that you were in; is that right?

12 A. No. There was nothing in this room.

13 Q. And the next photograph, please. Again, can you identify what

14 kind of room this is?

15 A. This is a dormitory, a bedroom, where the beds were.

16 Q. Did the rooms appear like this when you were detained there, or

17 did they look different?

18 A. The rooms looked like this. But here, in this room, the beds are

19 placed along the wall, whereas earlier, when there were many inmates, bunk

20 beds were placed across the room as well, along both walls with windows,

21 and you passed in the middle. Between the rows of beds, you would reach

22 the last bed. This is a different layout of beds within the same

23 dormitory, within the same bedroom.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned that at some point there were bunk

25 beds; a few moments ago you said when you arrived there were only

1 mattresses. When did the bunk beds appear?

2 A. In that room, when I just arrived in Room 18, I slept on the

3 right-hand side, in one of the right-hand-side bedrooms. There were two

4 bedrooms to the right of the entrance, and the windows in these bedrooms

5 faced the yard of the KP Dom; whereas the other two bedrooms on the right

6 side faced the factory and this other part below the KP Dom -- behind the

7 KP Dom.

8 I was in one of the bedrooms on the left side where there were no

9 beds; in the right-hand-side bedrooms there were beds. But the left-hand

10 side bedrooms were absolutely bare except for the mattresses.

11 Q. So just to clarify. In both Rooms 18 and 20, there were

12 mattresses and no beds; right?

13 A. In the left-hand side bedrooms, there were two bedrooms on the

14 left which faced the yard and another two bedrooms with windows facing the

15 back, the factory and a part of the warehouses. You had a view of the

16 orchards and the hills; there was one of the hills called Dub. In the

17 left-hand-side bedrooms there were no beds; in the right-hand-side

18 bedrooms, there were beds.

19 Q. I'm sorry. I misunderstood, then. In some of the rooms even

20 within Room 18 and in some of the rooms even within Room 20, there were

21 beds.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now I'd like to ask you some questions about the solitary cells.

24 In your prior testimony - and I will refer to transcript pages 2

25 -- I'm sorry, 690, 693, and 694 - you testified that you were placed into

1 solitary confinement on three occasions; twice for trying to communicate

2 with other detainees and once for trying to make pants out of a blanket in

3 order to keep warm. Did you ever learn of other reasons why people were

4 sent to solitary confinement?

5 A. There were people who, before coming to rooms together with other

6 inmates, had been placed in solitary confinement first. They would

7 first spend some time in solitary cells immediately upon arrival and then

8 they were brought into rooms shared by other inmates. And there were

9 other cases involving certain infractions where people were placed in

10 solitary confinement.

11 Q. I would like to ask you to give us examples of these infractions,

12 if you can.

13 A. Looking through the window is an infraction. When inmates are

14 leaving one room and going in a file to lunch, we from other rooms were

15 not allowed to stand at the window and look at them; we must not try to

16 contact them, try to talk to them. All of these were violations which

17 entailed punishment either in the form of slapping or a blow by a club or

18 solitary confinement for four or five days, depending on the decision of

19 the guard.

20 Q. The people that you mentioned who were put into solitary

21 confinement immediately upon being brought to KP Dom, do you know what

22 reasons were given for them being placed there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When you were placed into solitary confinement, could you tell us

25 how many days you were placed there each of the three times?

1 A. I spent a total of 13 days those three times in solitary

2 confinement. I was given five days in the solitary once, but the guard

3 released me earlier, two days earlier, because of my heart problems, et

4 cetera.

5 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see that it's 1.00. Perhaps we can take

6 a break.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. You did hand up -- or at least there was handed

8 up to me document 122/1, which is his exchange certificate, and this other

9 document, "Destroyed Mosques." They were tendered in the previous hearing

10 and they would normally go with the evidence that's already in from the

11 other hearing.

12 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. I had intended to deal with that

13 afterwards --

14 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, very well.

15 MS. KUO: -- because the witness had come into the courtroom.

16 It's not necessary for his presence during that discussion.

17 JUDGE HUNT: All right.

18 Well, then, we'll adjourn now until 2.30.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have this

5 witness shown photographs from Exhibit 18; photographs 7519, 7525, and

6 7526.

7 Q. Before the lunch break, we were talking about solitary

8 confinement, and I would like you to identify, if you can, what you see in

9 photograph 7519.

10 A. 7519, in the lower part, you can see the passage and to the left

11 are the solitary cells, one, two, three of them with their doors. And

12 above them there is a grill but there is no glass. Just a metal grid.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. And the upper photograph shows a room which was used in daytime.

15 I guess so because I can see tables and benches. So it would be one of

16 the daytime rooms.

17 Q. Thank you. And that room that's shown in 7518, that upper

18 photograph, doesn't have anything to do with solitary confinement; right?

19 A. No, it does not.

20 Q. Let's move on to the other photographs, then. The upper

21 photograph, which is 7525, can you tell us what's there?

22 A. The upper photograph shows a bed, a metal frame bed with a

23 blanket, and this yellow thing seems to be a kind of a mattress. So a

24 mattress with a metal frame bed, that is, I guess, because I did not spend

25 any time in such a solitary cell. So I don't know. This is evidently

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1 concrete not parquet.

2 Q. Did the solitary confinement cell that you spent time in look

3 similar?

4 A. Yes, except that there was no metal bed in it. There was just a

5 mattress on the concrete floor. But, yes, this was the toilet, I think.

6 And between the dormitory and the WC, there is a wall of about 10

7 centimetres and it separates, this small wall, the mattress from the

8 toilet seat. And the rest -- and it's only about 10 or 12 centimetres,

9 and the rest is open. There are no doors between the two.

10 Q. Photograph 7526, what does that show?

11 A. You can again see here a metal bed with the mattress on the bed.

12 Q. I'm sorry. It's the photograph below it. It looks like a WC.

13 A. Yes. Yes, it is the WC. We call it a croucher or a squatter.

14 You can't sit there. There is no water. There is nothing to flush. So

15 you see there is absolutely nothing to flush it down. And such a

16 contraption, a squatter, was also in the solitary cell in which I was

17 kept.

18 Q. Thank you very much. Could you estimate how big the solitary

19 confinement cells were in square metres?

20 A. The solitary confinement cells were perhaps 2 to 2.20 metres long

21 to this low wall which separated the WC from the part with the mattress.

22 And again, by 2 or 3 metres, because there were times when there would be

23 two or three men to a cell. And from the door to the WC, there was a wall

24 and then an open space between the WC and the bottom wall or the rear

25 wall. But there was this low wall between the WC and, how shall I call

1 it, the bedroom. And in the solitary confinement that I was in, there was

2 an open space to the left and there you had one mattress or two or three,

3 depending on the number of inmates in that particular cell.

4 Q. Now, even though this was called solitary confinement, are you

5 saying that sometimes there were two or even three people kept in these

6 rooms?

7 A. Yes. Depends. At times they simply did not have enough solitary

8 cells, and they needed to put more people in these cells, that is, there

9 would be too few people who would be confined to those cells and they

10 sometimes wanted to put there more people.

11 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like the witness

12 to be shown Exhibit 18, photograph 7520.

13 Q. Looking at the top photograph, is this, then, also a solitary

14 confinement cell?

15 A. Yes, it is. I heard that it was a solitary confinement cell from

16 the inmates, from those who had been to this cell. And in this cell, this

17 cell is on the inner side facing the yard and opposite the canteen of the

18 KP Dom. And the cell that I was in was on the upper side, and that grid

19 on the door and the small window overlooked the furniture factory and the

20 production materials that they kept outside in the factory yard, but

21 within the KP Dom. So this cell, as you enter the building, that is to

22 the right. And those other cells that I told you about earlier on are to

23 the left end overlooking the factory, that is, the wall of the KP Dom.

24 Q. Thank you. When you were placed in solitary confinement, were you

25 by yourself or with other people in the cell?

1 A. I was alone on all three occasions.

2 Q. You mentioned before the break that you were placed in solitary

3 confinement three times for a total of 13 days. I want to ask you a

4 question about a prior statement that you had given on 16 and 17 October

5 1995 to investigators of the Tribunal in which you said that for one

6 occasion when you tried to sew the leggings to keep warm, you were sent to

7 solitary confinement for ten days. Could you tell us -- can you explain

8 that? Was it ten days or was it a different number of days for that

9 particular incident?

10 A. No, not ten days, because after talking to guards and the guards'

11 commander, in view of the state of my health, they let me out of it

12 earlier, from the solitary confinement.

13 Q. Just to clarify. You were supposed to be there for ten days but,

14 in fact, you were released after three days because of your health?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you were in solitary confinement, were you given food and

17 water?

18 A. We had three meals which were brought by one of the convicts,

19 escorted by a guard, and he'd merely unlock the door to the solitary cell

20 and push the bowl, or either through the small flap or the small window on

21 the door, they would just push the bowl in and then lock the door again.

22 In the evening, after I would finish my supper, they would also

23 put out the lights immediately, so that I would spend between 7.00, until

24 daybreak, I would spend in total darkness.

25 Q. Were there any windows in your cell, in the solitary cells?

1 A. In the solitary cell, except on the metal door, there was this

2 metal grid which was open -- I mean, the air could enter freely. But the

3 outer wall between the passage and the door of the cell, that is, the

4 outer wall of the passage, very high up there was a small window, perhaps

5 some 80 centimetres tall, and it was open or shut regardless of who was in

6 the cell. It depended on the guard.

7 Q. So this was what you were able to show us in that photograph of

8 the hallway, that there was a grid on the top of the solitary cells that

9 let in some air and light. And then there's a hallway, and on the hallway

10 there are some windows?

11 A. Correct, yes, door of the solitary cell. Yes, on the wall, not in

12 the cell.

13 Q. When the lights were on or when you were able to get light in

14 those rooms, were you allowed to read or write or draw?

15 A. Outside the cell?

16 Q. Inside the solitary cell.

17 A. In the solitary cells, no. I've just said, I would be brought

18 supper, and while I ate that I would have some lights on. But as soon as

19 I would finish that meal and push that bowl and the spoon out, the guard

20 would switch off the lights. And in the cell I did not have anything at

21 all, I didn't have any newspapers or anything; that was prohibited. Any

22 kind of press, any kind of information, communication, radio, any kind of

23 information, that was strictly prohibited. And in these cells, you only

24 had a mattress to sleep on or this metal frame bed, as you could see in

25 this other cell, as you could see on that photograph, and as I was told by

1 inmates who were kept in those solitary confinement cells.

2 Q. I want to clarify something that you mentioned. Even if you were

3 not in the solitary confinement cells, did you or the other inmates --

4 detainees have access to newspapers? Were you allowed to have newspapers

5 or listen to the radio or anything like that?

6 A. That was strictly prohibited. We could read newspapers which had

7 stayed behind, that is, which were a year, perhaps two, three, four months

8 old, that were left behind, those that had survived from the those, let me

9 call them, peacetime prisoners, those newspapers, yes, we could read them.

10 But the rest, the press, radio, television, or any other form of

11 information or communication between the rooms with people who were

12 brought to the KP Dom at a later stage, all that was strictly prohibited.

13 And even with the Serbs later on who were regular convicts in the camp,

14 again, any contact with them was strictly prohibited to us, the Muslims,

15 let alone to the receipt of any kind of information; that is, we were kept

16 in complete isolation as regards information or as regards any knowledge

17 of things outside, so that we could never -- or at least I never knew

18 anything about my family until December, until late December 1993, that

19 is, until I was -- until the Red Cross, the International Red Cross,

20 brought me a letter from them.

21 Q. Let's go back to discussing the solitary confinement. When you

22 were in the solitary confinement, was the food different from the food you

23 would eat when you were not in solitary confinement?

24 A. No, no. The food was the same for the convicts who ate in the

25 canteen. From the same kitchen, the food was brought to the solitary

1 confinement cells.

2 Q. What about the heating in the cells? Were the cells heated at

3 all?

4 A. No, no, nor was there any heating device. And it was impossible,

5 because they had been designed so, without the heating. That was done on

6 purpose. There was no chimney, for instance, if you wanted to use a

7 solid fuel stove or anything to heat them.

8 Q. Were the solitary confinement cells any colder than the regular

9 prisoner rooms, or the same?

10 A. Much colder and much -- and much damper, because it's just

11 concrete. It's just concrete and the mattress that you have is on the

12 concrete, not on a wooden -- not on some wooden boards. And it's much

13 lower because there isn't enough air for the walls to dry, so that you can

14 feel the dampness in the walls. They were always moldy because there was

15 this concrete floor, and of course concrete will always remain humid,

16 remain damp much longer. It retains moisture.

17 Q. During the time that you were kept in the solitary confinement

18 cells, were you ever taken out for walks or exercise outdoors?

19 A. No.

20 Q. How did you feel when you were kept in the solitary confinement

21 cells?

22 A. It's hard. It's terrible. You don't know what to do with

23 yourself.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that there were some Serbs who were, as

25 you called them, regular prisoners. Where were they housed?

1 A. You don't mean these solitary confinement cells?

2 Q. No.

3 A. You mean in the KP Dom as such?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. In the KP Dom, in the penitentiary, they were in separate rooms,

6 rooms completely separated from us, from our rooms. They had their own

7 special entrances. They were also taken out into the yard for walks at a

8 different time. They had a canteen of their own, and they even had their

9 own kitchens where food was prepared for them of a much higher quality

10 than for the Muslims, than for our inmates. And they also had access to

11 press. They had visitors. They had television, radio; that is, all the

12 media which were strictly denied to us, they all had that. They could

13 receive visitors. They could be brought whatever they needed, I don't

14 know, cigarettes or whatever.

15 Q. Did you or the other Muslim detainees have contact with the Serb

16 prisoners? Let me ask you first: Were you allowed to have contact with

17 them?

18 A. No, it was not allowed. It was strictly prohibited. We were not

19 allowed, we were forbidden to talk or communicate with Serb prisoners.

20 Q. Were you, nevertheless, able to have some sort of communication

21 with any Serb prisoners?

22 A. On the sly, yes, so that the guard doesn't see you.

23 Q. How were you able to do that?

24 A. Well, I specifically did certain chores, had some jobs in the yard

25 of the compound. And when the Serb prisoners would come out for their

1 walk into this yard, then I would surreptitiously, stealthily, try to

2 communicate with some prisoners, that is, people that I did not know

3 before, who I had first seen on that occasion. And some responded

4 correctly and some were insulted, offensive, cursing, so that I often

5 tried to avoid a number of them, not to see them again. I tried not to be

6 within ten yards of them.

7 Q. In your prior testimony, you mentioned that there was one Serb

8 prisoner - you don't need to mention his name - but that he gave you some

9 extra food; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us how that was possible?

12 A. On the sly, by strictly minding that the guard does not see him,

13 because had the guard caught him, he would end up in a solitary

14 confinement cell and I would end up there.

15 Q. And the information you told us before about how they got more and

16 better food, they had access to the outside world, how did you get that

17 information?

18 A. Because I worked in the kitchen area. I swept the kitchen or,

19 rather, the canteen. Where we had our meals, wood was chopped by our

20 inmates, and I carried that wood to the kitchen or would take armfuls of

21 this wood into the kitchen to heat the stoves because that was the only

22 top of solid fuel that we had, and it had to be used for cooking stoves.

23 So that I was near that, how shall I call it, cauldron or pot in which

24 food was prepared.

25 Q. So you base the knowledge in the difference of the food on your

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1 personal ability to see it; is that right?

2 A. Correct. And when it would be brought from the storage to the

3 kitchen, that is when I could see it; and when it was being prepared, I

4 could also watch that.

5 Q. You mentioned also that the Serb prisoners were allowed to have

6 visitors. Were the Muslim prisoners allowed to have visitors or receive

7 packages from outside while you were detained there?

8 A. While I was incarcerated, not a single Muslim got anything; that

9 is, not a single Muslim wife could come to the KP Dom to see her husband

10 or her child. I do not have any such knowledge, and I'm quite positive

11 that it did not happen, that there were no such visits. Perhaps, perhaps

12 visitors were allowed in case of mixed marriages, if, say, the wife was a

13 Serb or a Montenegrin or something, and the husband, a Muslim, was

14 incarcerated in that prison, in such cases, in such instances, perhaps

15 wives could come and those prisoners could then come out, come out of the

16 compound and be somewhere in the administrative building and perhaps see

17 their wives there. Those were the only instances.

18 As for the others, for Muslims who were incarcerated there and who

19 were married to Muslim women, no, that was impossible. Except that in

20 early April, when this prison was set up, yes, it was permitted then. At

21 that time wives or mothers could come and bring, perhaps, food or a change

22 of underwear for their husbands or sons in the KP Dom. But that was

23 abolished. As of the 19th of May, when I was put there, I never heard

24 about any such visit being approved, with the exception of the mixed

25 couples.

1 Q. You also described that you did certain chores, like cleaning up

2 in the kitchen, carrying wood, things like that. Did you volunteer to do

3 those things?

4 A. That was later. That was about midway through my stay in the

5 camp. It is true that I reported and volunteered to do those chores

6 because psychologically I could not stand it any longer. I thought I

7 would go mad because of the conditions in that room, because of this state

8 of being locked up except when you go out for lunch or for supper. All of

9 the rest of the time you're locked in a room with a certain number of

10 prisoners, and each one of us, we all shared one problem, that is, we

11 didn't know what had happened to our families, we didn't know why we were

12 being kept there, we didn't know when we would come out or whether we

13 would come out ever, whether we would survive or not, and --

14 Q. When --

15 A. And to simply get rid of those thoughts, to divert my thoughts.

16 You know, when you do something, you forget about certain things, and

17 that's why I asked to be given some job, to be given some work, and to

18 spend some time in open air. So that as far as I'm concerned, I was not

19 forced to go and work, but quite a number of prisoners were forced to work

20 outside the compound, either to perform some agricultural jobs, heavy

21 ones, or to work at the Miljevina pit mine, and those people were there

22 without any technical aids, without any safety work devices or anything.

23 So that they were tremendously exposed to -- they were exposed to

24 tremendous pressure during such work. And even persons who assigned them,

25 that is, who came with those lists who would be assigned to what job, even

1 though there were some inmates, some prisoners who were sick, and who had

2 even medical certificates that they could not work in that mine, such a

3 man would say, "What physician? What are you talking about? I'm your

4 physician. You're off to work."

5 So that there were two sorts -- I'm sorry. There were two sorts

6 of people. There were people who were forced to work and there were

7 people who volunteered to simply -- to keep themselves busy, for the

8 reasons that I have just explained.

9 And just one more thing, I'm sorry. Those people who worked like

10 I did outside, we also got another -- a small, but yet we got a

11 supplementary meal because of those jobs that we did.

12 Q. I'd like to ask you about the people who did not work voluntarily

13 as you did. You mentioned somebody making a statement to the sick

14 detainees about how they had to work nevertheless. Who made that

15 statement?

16 A. That was Savo Todovic, also known as Bunda. I personally heard

17 that. There were such people in my room who were taken out and told

18 that.

19 Q. What was Savo Todovic's position?

20 A. I know, I have heard from others, I have such information that he

21 was deputy warden.

22 Q. Do you know who his supervisor was during this time?

23 A. The warden of the KP Dom.

24 Q. And who was that?

25 A. Milorad Kunarac.

1 Q. How did you know that?

2 MS. KUO: I just noticed on the transcript that it says Milorad

3 Kunarac, and I just want to make sure that wasn't misheard. Could you

4 tell us his name again?

5 JUDGE HUNT: I heard -- I thought I heard he put them in the usual

6 way, back to front to us, and I'm pretty sure he did say Mr. Krnojelac.

7 MS. KUO: I just for the record would like to have him repeat the

8 name because I would like the transcript to be clean.

9 A. I'm sorry.

10 Q. It's just a technical problem that we've had, so maybe you could

11 just tell us again the name of the warden.

12 A. Kunarac Milorad.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps that was what I was expecting to hear.

14 Anyway, you've got your answer.

15 MS. KUO:

16 Q. I notice that the witness just made a face.

17 A. Krnojelac.

18 Q. Okay. And how did you learn that? How did you learn that Milorad

19 Krnojelac was the warden of KP Dom?

20 A. I was brought and at that time I didn't know who the warden was.

21 After awhile, though, we were talking amongst ourselves that a certain

22 number of us should go to see the warden and intercede to try to get our

23 conditions improved, such as accommodation, availability of means of

24 hygiene. And one of the inmates, I don't know whether he was the first or

25 not, but anyway, he went to see the warden, and when he came back, we

1 asked him, "What did the warden tell you?" and "Who is the warden?" and

2 that's when he said his first and last name.

3 Since I knew the warden, I wondered whether I should perhaps go

4 myself, and I assumed that the warden knew me too as director of the

5 Sumarstvo forestry company, and we often met in the field while he was a

6 reserve military man. And we once met at a military training where I was

7 a guest of the commander, whereas he was a major in reserve. So we

8 had known each other from before.

9 And in view of that, I thought perhaps I should go and see the

10 warden. I thought that he would receive me and that I would manage to get

11 the conditions improved, not only for myself but for all the inmates.

12 I asked the guard the next day whether I could go and whether the

13 warden of the KP Dom would receive me. The guard wrote down my name, and

14 the next day he told me that the warden would, indeed, receive me. And

15 together --

16 Q. When you asked to see the warden, did you ask to see the warden by

17 name, or did you simply ask to see the warden?

18 A. No. I asked to see the warden, because in my -- in my book, no

19 matter who I'm talking to, when I'm supposed to have an official meeting,

20 I always ask for the person by his function, and especially in this --

21 under the circumstances then, I did not dare to tell the guard I wanted to

22 see Milorad --

23 THE INTERPRETER: The witness again said Kunarac.

24 A. -- Kunarac. I thought the guard might slap me. I was afraid of

25 punishment. So I bore that in mind. And normally I asked to see the

1 warden of the KP Dom.

2 Q. Did you tell the guard why you wanted to see the warden?

3 A. I wanted to speak to the warden.

4 Q. Did you tell the guard any reason that you wanted to speak to the

5 warden, or what you wanted to speak to him about?

6 A. I told him I wanted to get our situation improved, the food and

7 all the other things.

8 Q. Who specifically did you make the request to? Was it a specific

9 guard or someone else?

10 A. No. I told the guard who was in charge of our room, because I

11 couldn't get out of my room. I had only one opportunity to contact the

12 guard and that was when he was taking us outside to have lunch or dinner.

13 When he unlocked the room, I took one such opportunity to tell him about

14 my wish.

15 Q. Now, you started to tell us about the next day when the guard came

16 and said the warden had agreed to see you. What happened at that point?

17 A. Then I went together with the guard to the administrative

18 building, and I was taken to the warden's office. The policeman -- the

19 guard left and the warden was alone in his office. He said, "Have a seat,

20 Safet," because he recognised me. He offered me coffee, a cigarette. I

21 stated my case, so to speak, told him why I asked him to see me. I

22 thanked him for receiving me. And he said in reply, "I'll see what can be

23 done."

24 Before me, though, another inmate had already been to see the

25 warden to raise the same issue - perhaps some other issues, I don't know -

1 but he was sure to have raised the same issue as I did.

2 Q. Who was that other person who raised -- the detainee who went

3 before you did?

4 A. That was a teacher, a teacher who worked in the same school as he

5 did, in Gornji Polje. The warden of the KP Dom and the teacher were

6 former colleagues.

7 Q. I'd like for you to tell the Tribunal what exactly you told the

8 warden that day about your condition and what you were requesting. To the

9 best that you can remember, what did you tell him?

10 A. I asked that the amount of food be increased and that the quality

11 of food be improved, because we got for a meal a thin slice of bread. For

12 instance, one loaf of bread was cut into 14 slices, meaning that 14

13 inmates received one loaf of bread, and that was the highest quality food

14 we ever got. The other things we got, such as stews, et cetera, were far

15 worse than the bread.

16 Q. At the point that you had this meeting with the warden, how long

17 had you been detained at KP Dom?

18 A. Perhaps 15 days. I had not been long in the KP Dom when I went to

19 see the warden, to intervene.

20 Q. Did the warden ever say that it was not within his competency to

21 meet your request?

22 A. He did not say that. He said, "We'll see."

23 Q. Did you have any other complaints to make to the warden at that

24 point, other than the food?

25 A. Toiletries, we asked for toiletries, soap. We asked for soap to

1 wash ourselves. That was part of our request. Not much more. We didn't

2 ask, for instance, to be allowed walks outside the KP Dom.

3 Q. Why didn't you ask for that during your meeting?

4 A. I don't know, really.

5 Q. After your meeting with the warden, what happened?

6 JUDGE HUNT: Before you go to that, Ms. Kuo, why should we be kept

7 in suspense? Who was it he did see? Was it the person he had known?

8 You've never got him to identify the person he actually saw. He asked to

9 see the warden by description, he was told that the warden would see him,

10 and he went along and spoke to somebody who had been described to him as

11 the warden. Who was it? Whatever his name may have been, did he know

12 him?

13 MS. KUO:

14 Q. Mr. Avdic, are you able to identify anybody in the courtroom today

15 as the person you met as the warden that day?

16 A. The gentleman sitting beside -- between two police officers.

17 MS. KUO: May the record reflect that the witness has identified

18 the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. You mentioned that you knew this person from before the war, and

22 you mentioned you'd met him before as well.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What did you know about him?

25 A. He used to be a teacher. And when I was director of the forestry

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1 company, at this military training exercise in the Zavita area that I

2 mentioned earlier, he also took part in the same exercise and he had the

3 rank of major. He was carrying out the assignment given to him by the

4 commander of the exercise. However, the commander of the exercise was not

5 pleased with the solution that he had found, and in an angry voice, he

6 addressed him, I sort of dragged that commander out of the office telling

7 him, "Come on, let the man do his job." But at that time he was a reserve

8 major.

9 Q. After you met Mr. Krnojelac in his office, did the food situation

10 change?

11 A. For about a week it improved. Not drastically, but it could be

12 felt, the improvement could be felt. However, after a week, the food

13 became as bad as before, and perhaps even worse.

14 Q. Did you ever ask to see the warden again?

15 A. No.

16 Q. As far as you could tell, was the KP Dom divided into two

17 different sections, a civil side and a military side? Or did it function

18 as one institution?

19 A. The KP Dom functioned as the KP Dom, not as two enterprises. In

20 one and the same KP Dom there was one single management. There was no

21 other separate management, as far as we could feel. There was only one

22 administration in the administrative building. They were in charge of

23 us. Whether there was anybody else outside the KP Dom, I don't know.

24 Q. As far as you were able to feel, who was in charge of the KP Dom

25 inside, what happened inside the KP Dom?

1 A. Inside the KP Dom, which I saw as one house, it was administrated

2 by the boss of that house. I used to be a director of a company employing

3 about 1.000 workers, and I as director was responsible for this entire

4 company, this entire organisation. I was responsible for any errors in

5 the accounting department or in planning or in the production section.

6 There was a chain of responsibility starting with the director and going

7 down, ending with people who were in charge of smaller units.

8 Q. And as director of that company, were you also responsible for

9 what happened in the evenings on the premises of the company?

10 A. If I had failed in any way to provide for appropriate measures

11 through the responsible staff, and if I had failed to provide adequate

12 security against a fire, for instance, then the person directly

13 responsible was guilty of a fire but I was guilty too.

14 Q. And who was the director, using that analogy, who was the director

15 of KP Dom?

16 A. The director was the warden of the KP Dom, because in the KP Dom

17 the person in charge was not called director, he was called the warden.

18 Q. Now I'd like to ask you some questions about events that occurred

19 in the evenings during the months of June and July. You testified in your

20 prior testimony, at transcript pages 692 and 693, that there were groups,

21 about five or six groups of about five or six men that were taken out in

22 the evenings during those two months of 1992. I'd like to ask you some

23 more details about that.

24 When precisely in the evenings were these groups taken out?

25 A. After supper, which began at 5.00 p.m. and ended about 7.00 p.m.,

1 so after supper and after all the inmates had gone back to their rooms and

2 were locked up again, people started being taken out from their rooms

3 according to lists which were drawn up in advance and given to the

4 guards. This list on a piece of paper was given by the guard at the gate

5 to the guard inside the compound, and the guard would then go to pick up

6 the people on the list. He would go from room to room and call out their

7 names.

8 Q. What room were you in during this time?

9 A. At that time I was in Room 20.

10 Q. Were you actually able to see this list being given to the guard

11 inside the KP Dom compound?

12 A. Behind the metal gate in the administration building, there's a

13 small window on the gate itself, and it was through that window that the

14 guard on the inside would call a guard indoors and give him that piece of

15 paper with the list.

16 Q. I'm going to show you what, with the help of the usher, was marked

17 and entered in evidence as P6/1. Do you recognise this diagram? And

18 could you point to the entrance, if you see it, the entrance to the

19 compound.

20 A. This is a part of the structures of the KP Dom. This front

21 structure is the administration building. Behind it is the cinema. And

22 this is all part of the KP Dom. These buildings here were the prisoners'

23 quarters.

24 Q. Let me ask you some specific questions. We've already -- excuse

25 me. We've already had this diagram identified by other witnesses, and I

1 want to ask you some very specific questions about where you were and what

2 you saw, okay?

3 Can you point out where you were -- what structure, what building

4 you were in, and approximately where in that building you were?

5 A. I was in this room here at the time, Room 20. On the ground floor

6 there is Room 16; on the next floor, there is 18; and my room at the time

7 was 20; and above us was another room, 22. It's in this part of the

8 building, the protruding part.

9 MS. KUO: Just let the record reflect that the witness has

10 indicated the portion that comes out of what was identified previously as

11 building B.

12 Q. Now, the place where you saw the list changing hands, can you

13 point that out on this diagram?

14 A. The gate leading inside the KP Dom was here, here is the guards'

15 office, and this gate that I've shown, this here, leads inside the KP Dom,

16 into the yard. It has a small window which you can open and call the

17 guard or hand something over through that small window.

18 MS. KUO: For the record, the witness has indicated the inside of

19 the KP Dom compound as you go into the part that's been previously

20 identified as the entrance, directly back from the entrance of that.

21 Q. I'd like to show you now, with the assistance of the usher, from

22 Exhibit 18, photograph 7472 and 7473.

23 On those two photographs, are you able to see that door or the

24 gate that you have been describing to us?

25 A. Yes. This is the gate in front of number 1, of the upper

1 photograph. That's it. This here.

2 MS. KUO: The witness is indicating on photograph 7472 what has

3 been marked with the yellow circle with the number 1.

4 Q. Could you indicate on the second photograph. Do you see it

5 there?

6 A. You can see a part of it. You can't see the whole door as in

7 photograph 1, but you can see the right door wing. That's what you can

8 see on this photograph. That's it.

9 MS. KUO: Again, for the record, the witness is pointing to the

10 far left side of the photograph. There is a door that is partially cut

11 off at the edge of the photograph.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. What did you actually see? You described a

13 list, and it was given from someone from the outside to a guard in the

14 inside; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What then happened to the list? Or the person who received the

17 list, what did he or she do?

18 A. That person who took this piece of paper, that list, read a list

19 of names on that piece of paper first to himself, to know, to see who were

20 those and which rooms they were in. And then he went from one room to the

21 other, opened the door and called out the names of the inmates on the

22 list, and would say only, "Let's go," without any explanation, without

23 having him take any of his belongings or whatever such an inmate had. He

24 would just summon him and say, "Let's go." Where?

25 Q. When you saw this person standing with the list and reading it,

1 you were -- where were you?

2 A. Excuse me. May I just -- in the room. From my room, one person

3 was called out from my room, and I was there. Naturally, all of us, all

4 the inmates in that room, we were all locked up, we were all under the key

5 because that was after supper. And as soon as we would come back from

6 breakfast, from lunch, from supper, the policeman escorting us both ways,

7 no sooner we would be back in the room than he would lock the door. So

8 that the policeman who came to fetch this man first had to unlock the

9 room, enter the room, and call out that inmate.

10 Before calling him out, when we saw that list, that piece of

11 paper, we were 90 per cent sure as to what would happen, and we just all

12 wondered who was on that list, who was on that piece of paper, because we

13 could guess what would happen to us. That was a tremendous psychological

14 pressure.

15 Q. The piece of paper that you've been calling the list, did you

16 actually see what was on it? Could you read it?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. How did you know it was a list?

19 A. A piece of paper, he pushes through a piece of paper, just a small

20 piece of a white sheet of paper, and that bit of white paper, a policeman

21 carries in his hand. We do see that, but we do not know what is written

22 on it. We cannot. How can we? We are not allowed to, not by a long

23 choke are we allowed to look at this or say to this policeman, "Mr. Guard,

24 sir, may I see who else is on the list?" Come on.

25 Q. When people were taken from your room in this way, did you see

1 where they were taken?

2 A. In front of the gate. They were taken to this gate and in front

3 of the gate that I just described. You just asked me questions about that

4 gate.

5 Q. Could you actually see that from the window in Room 20?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. What did you see happen to the people who were brought to that

8 gate in this way?

9 A. When they were brought together there, the door opened and they

10 were taken out from the compound, outside, that is, to that part beyond

11 the gate. And as soon as they would be there, as they would come out of

12 the compound and enter the guards' premises, that is, beyond that gate,

13 that is, on that other side behind the gate where the guards are, then the

14 gate would be locked then.

15 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to have you look at P6/1 again. Could

16 you show us on this diagram, please, in what direction the men were taken?

17 A. This is the entrance. This is where the guards were and moved

18 about. And from this area here, the inmates could be taken, because all

19 this, we call it the administrative building, all this, to the left and

20 right of this gate, so they could be taken either here to the left, to

21 the left wing of the administrative building, or to the right wing of the

22 building, as you look from the guards' room, that is, the main entrance

23 into the KP Dom, into the penitentiary.

24 Q. Do you know which direction the men were taken?

25 A. We could not see which direction they were being taken into.

1 Q. Could you tell through any other means than seeing?

2 A. On the basis of -- no, later, some 15 minutes or so later, we

3 could, with about 90 per cent certainty, determine which part of the

4 facility those men were in, and that was on the basis of their cries of

5 pain, of screams, moans of those inmates; on the basis of blows, blows

6 when some objects would hit the bodies of those inmates and their moans

7 then; and also on the basis of individual shots.

8 One could determine whether they were in the left or in the right

9 part of the administrative building. Perhaps at times they might have

10 been taken out directly through the gate and out. But the screams, the

11 sobs, the shots, the sound of objects hitting those bodies, and that

12 lasted for about one hour and that went on in the administrative building

13 of the penitentiary, sometimes in the left wing and sometimes in the right

14 one.

15 Q. And you were able to hear these sounds that you described from

16 Room 20?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. How did the sounds that you've described affect you?

19 A. That was terrible, you know. Many people simply could not listen

20 to those moans, to those imprecations, to those blows, and they covered

21 their ears. Some cried.

22 Q. Could you understand what was being said, those sounds? You've

23 described moans and cries and screams. Were there words that you could

24 make out?

25 A. No.

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1 Q. And you described the sounds of objects hitting. Can you be more

2 specific about what those sounds were?

3 A. Well, one could say that those were blows, rather, echoes.

4 Perhaps rubber batons or some wooden objects. Perhaps batons made of

5 wood, because they had both the rubber and wooden batons or truncheons.

6 Or perhaps rifle butt blows.

7 Q. You also described shots. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

8 A. One could hear shots from firearms. You could hear shots,

9 firearms. Firearms.

10 Q. While this was happening, could you see whether there were lights

11 on in the rooms on the ground floor on the right wing of the

12 administrative building?

13 A. There was still some daylight, there was still daylight. At times

14 lights were not on because they were not needed because there was

15 daylight.

16 Q. Were you able to look inside those windows at all to see what was

17 happening inside?

18 A. No, we could not see through the windows because the windows were

19 up to one-half -- of the first and the second floor, the lower half of the

20 windows were painted over with white paint so that you could not see

21 anything through that. And on the ground floor, they were painted

22 throughout so that you could not see anything through them. And the

23 movement of the people in the rooms, I could not see -- I could not see

24 that. I could not. But I heard.

25 Q. Were you able to tell what floor these sounds were coming from, or

1 just the direction of what part of the building? Were you actually able

2 to tell what level of rooms this was happening in?

3 A. In the left part, it was from the second floor. In this -- no,

4 sorry. If you -- looking from here towards the cinema hall, if this is

5 the right wing --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. -- so if this is the right wing, then it was from the second

8 floor, then this was happening on the second floor. However, in the left

9 part, again viewing from the gate, left of the gate which is opposite the

10 storage -- the store house, in this part we could not really determine

11 where this was going on. But the direction of the sound, yes, it came

12 from that wing.

13 Q. And, again, focusing on the right wing, when you said "on the

14 second floor," is that about the same location where the warden's office

15 was when you met Milorad Krnojelac? Is that the same place, the second

16 floor of that right wing?

17 A. When I went to see the warden and when he received me, he did not

18 receive me in that office on this second floor in the warden's building.

19 I was received on the ground floor in one of the offices where the guard

20 had brought me, in one of the ground floor offices, and the warden was

21 waiting for me there.

22 Q. Are you actually able to identify the office on this diagram where

23 you met Milorad Krnojelac, if you remember?

24 A. Well, it must have been the second or third office from the

25 entrance into that wing. So that could be -- let's see. What does it

1 say? "Legal." This hall here, when you have the hall, this part here, in

2 this.

3 MS. KUO: For the record, that is the place that is labelled as

4 "Sala" which is the fourth room from the entrance of the KP Dom going to

5 the right.

6 Q. After hearing an hour of these cries and blows, what else did you

7 hear?

8 A. After, when the moans, the sobs, the shots ended, the silence set

9 in. For about 15 to 20 minutes there was complete silence, and after that

10 I heard a car engine being switched on and a vehicle moving. And on one

11 occasion among those various incidents, a vehicle which is moving, that

12 is, which was switched on after that, and that vehicle moving, crossing,

13 the Drina bridge.

14 Q. Was there a point at which you could actually see the vehicle

15 rather than just hear it?

16 A. A vehicle, when it was about halfway across the Drina bridge or,

17 rather, when it had already -- when it was above the water, above the

18 river, directly above the river - so this is about 70 per cent of the

19 length of the bridge from the beginning, from the penitentiary, so about

20 30 per cent of the bridge is on the other bank of the Drina, so 70 per

21 cent -- so the vehicle had covered about 70 per cent of the length of the

22 bridge - and then one could see. But the night had already fallen and the

23 vehicle had the lights on, and then one could see the lights and one could

24 sort of glean the outline of the vehicle owing to the headlights, and then

25 of course the area in front lit by the headlights.

1 And then the vehicle stopped, because these headlights did not

2 move, did not shift or anything. And after awhile, after a minute or two,

3 I heard something hitting the water as if throwing bags with sand, that

4 is, some objects hitting the surface of the water, as if a sandbag was

5 thrown to the water, and a splash. That's what we could hear.

6 Q. Do you recall the number of splashes you heard each time?

7 A. Not really, because it was -- it was very difficult to see. Many

8 people ran away not to see that, not to hear that. And there were a

9 number of us who tried to see and hear.

10 Q. When you say "ran away," where were they running away from? Was

11 it the window?

12 A. Yes, yes, they got away from the window, they got away from that

13 scene. They did not want to see; they did not want to hear.

14 Q. How did you feel at that moment when you heard the splashes in the

15 water?

16 A. What do you think how I felt? Terrible. All those people who

17 were there, we were all a family, one family. One family, we were. And

18 each one of us, the disappearance of any one of us, was like losing a

19 member of your family.

20 Q. Were you able to see who was throwing these things in the water?

21 A. [No audible response]

22 Q. Can you tell us the names of the people from your room who

23 disappeared in

24 this way?

25 A. From my room, Room 20, Aziz Tulek was a man they took away.

1 Excuse me. Excuse me. Kemal Tulek. Kemal Tulek. Correction: Kemal

2 Tulek.

3 Q. All right. In a few minutes I'll go through a list with you with

4 the different names.

5 I'd like to have you shown at this point Exhibit P6.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honour, before we proceed, I've just had pointed

7 out to me the transcript. At line 15 there was a question: "Were you

8 able to see who was throwing these things in the water?" and there was an

9 answer no which I heard from the witness and it's not shown on the

10 transcript. I just want to make sure that that is corrected.

11 JUDGE HUNT: You mean before the statement, "Did you tell us the

12 names of the people"?

13 MS. KUO: Yes. I think the question simply continues, and in fact

14 there was an answer in between.

15 THE COURT REPORTER: There was no audible response.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I have no direct recollection myself. Do you think

17 you should clear it up with the witness?

18 MS. KUO: I can do that.

19 Q. Witness, we're having a problem with the transcript so I'll have

20 to ask the question again.

21 Were you able to see who was throwing these things in the water

22 off the bridge?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, looking at Exhibit P6, just for orientation, can

25 you show us the entrance of the KP Dom? Can you see it? I know it's a

1 little bit small.

2 A. This is the entrance.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. But there are two entrances both leading into the compound. This

5 is the official entrance, and here there is a large gate for large trucks

6 which either bring production materials for the factory and such like.

7 But they're only used for big lorries and other large vehicles. People do

8 not normally use it.

9 Q. Now, can you please show us on this exhibit where you heard the

10 vehicle starting, the sound of the vehicle starting?

11 A. I was in Room 20, here. This is Room 16, 18, 20, 22, in this

12 wing here. And the vehicles left off from in front of -- in front of this

13 gate. It was a van. Our inmates who worked in the compound here, there

14 was a workshop here, and they repaired that vehicle. They called it

15 Kadi. And that vehicle was switched on in front of this gate here, and

16 from this gate, then it would either go across the bridge or in either

17 direction.

18 MS. KUO: For the record, the place where the witness indicated

19 the vehicle was started is in front of the official entrance to KP Dom,

20 and then he indicated a path that went to the right along the

21 administrative building, the outside side, and then turns right onto a

22 bridge which is indicated on the diagram as well. Thank you.

23 Q. Now, you mentioned that some of the detainees worked in the auto

24 mechanic or repair shop. Did any of them tell you what they saw inside

25 this vehicle after these events that you have described?

1 A. They saw a bloodstained vehicle or, rather, traces of blood on and

2 in the vehicle. And all the -- in spite of all the attempts to wash that

3 vehicle, it could not be done, and the inmates who worked in this car

4 repair shop could see that blood in that vehicle.

5 MS. KUO: It looks like we have two minutes left. I can show the

6 witness one more photograph or one more set of photographs, and then we

7 can complete for the day.

8 With the usher's assistance, I would like to have the witness

9 shown, from Exhibit 18, photograph 7528 and 7529.

10 Q. I'd actually like you to look at the bottom photograph first. Do

11 you see an arrow, a yellow arrow, in the middle of the photograph?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. And that's pointing to a group of trees, more or less; right?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. To the right of those group of trees, do you see the top of a

16 building?

17 A. Yes, you can see it. It's this inner part. And in front here,

18 this is a part of the administrative building, and the roof which you see

19 behind and those windows, that belongs to the building -- to the

20 prisoners' quarters inside the compound.

21 Q. And also on this photograph, do you see the bridge that you have

22 described to us today?

23 A. Yes. That is this metal, iron, bridge on the Drina. Across the

24 Drina from the penitentiary, or almost the whole width of the cinema

25 hall, it starts there and crosses to the left bank of the Drina.

1 Q. Now I'd like to show you the top photograph. Can you tell us what

2 you see there?

3 A. On the upper photograph I see three chimneys and I see a tiled

4 roof, and behind that I see leaves and branches of trees.

5 Q. Can you --

6 A. And then further back is the woods.

7 Q. Are you able to tell from this photograph, more or less, where

8 it's taken from, or where the view is?

9 A. This photograph could have been taken from the inside, from some

10 part inside the KP Dom, and then -- and to get the left bank of the Drina,

11 or, rather, part of this area which had been forested with black pine.

12 And you see this house. This house is above the old railway tracks, the

13 former railroad between Miljevina and Foca. So this building here, hidden

14 by these trees, was on the left bank of the Drina, above the old railway

15 tracks.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I think that this is the time we can have a break.

17 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume tomorrow at 9.30. We'll adjourn now.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.03 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2^nd day of

21 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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