Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 723

1 Tuesday, 7 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, would you please take the solemn

10 declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Your witness, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But before I start, I would introduce to my

18 left Ms. Diane Dicklich, who will take over the case manager function from

19 Ms. Butler.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

21 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

22 Q. Good morning, Witness.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Witness, you have in front of you a piece of paper and on this

25 piece of paper you have there the number 54, and that is the number you

Page 724

1 are referred to in these proceedings.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think everybody else in the courtroom has

3 this sheet.

4 Q. Witness, the name under this number, is that your name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the date under this name, is it your birth date?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And there are also two other names under your birth date, and if

9 you, in these proceedings, like to refer to these people, just do not tell

10 us the name but the numbers.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to

12 enter this sheet of paper as a new exhibit.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: It will be Exhibit P398 and it will be under seal.


17 Q. Witness, where were you born?

18 A. I was born in a village near Foca.

19 Q. And what is your ethnicity?

20 A. Muslim.

21 Q. Are you married?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And do you have children?

24 A. I do, two.

25 Q. Where did you live before the war?

Page 725

1 A. In Foca.

2 Q. And in which neighbourhood did you live in Foca?

3 A. The neighbourhood of Donje Polje.

4 Q. Was this a Muslim neighbourhood?

5 A. Well, the majority population was Muslim, but it was not

6 ethnically pure.

7 Q. What was your profession before the war?

8 A. Worker. Actually, I am a skilled worker by profession, but I was

9 in charge of a shift in a factory.

10 Q. When did the war start in Foca?

11 A. Well, as far as the date of the beginning of the war in Foca is

12 concerned, we could talk about that a lot. However, I experienced my

13 first shelling on the morning of the 6th of April, around 10.00 or 11.00.

14 Q. And where were you when that happened?

15 A. In the apartment. In my apartment where I lived.

16 Q. Was it an apartment block or was it a small building you lived

17 in?

18 A. An apartment block with some 29 apartments.

19 Q. And the people living in this apartment block, were they

20 ethnically mixed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you do when the fighting started? Where did you go?

23 A. The basement, with all the other neighbours.

24 Q. The people in the basement, what ethnicity did they have?

25 A. Well, they belonged to different ethnic groups, but there were far

Page 726

1 more Muslims.

2 Q. How many Serbs were among the people in the basement?

3 A. Three or four persons.

4 Q. Why so few?

5 A. I don't know why so few. I really don't know the right answer to

6 that. However, I imagine that knowing what would happen, they went away

7 during the weekend. They went to stay with some relatives. They sent

8 their families away.

9 Q. Does that mean actually there were more people living in the --

10 more Serb people living in the apartment block but they were gone when the

11 war started?

12 A. Well, yes. A lot of attention was paid to that before, that

13 buildings should not be ethnically pure.

14 Q. What do you mean by this?

15 A. I mean the former Yugoslavia was well known for tensions that

16 existed in the Second World War. Later on, the government paid attention

17 that all ethnic groups be represented at all levels.

18 Q. Thank you. Which part of the town was shelled? Was it all over

19 the town the shelling or in particular parts? Could you see that?

20 A. I know that all of Donje Polje was shelled. I cannot say what

21 happened up there in town.

22 Q. Were houses destroyed during the initial fighting?

23 A. Yes. Yes, destroyed.

24 Q. Were Serb houses among those destroyed?

25 A. I didn't see any. There weren't any private Serb homes in that

Page 727

1 neighbourhood. Perhaps about ten in that part of the neighbourhood that I

2 lived in.

3 Q. Do you know if the house of the accused Krnojelac was destroyed at

4 that time?

5 A. I don't know. I know something that will be seen later. I know

6 that some camp inmates went to repair the house of the mentioned person.

7 Q. How long did the fighting last?

8 A. Well, seven or eight days. I don't know exactly. I think it was

9 from the 6th until the 14th or 15th of April, something like that, in

10 1992.

11 Q. Did the Muslims withdraw from Foca or flee from Foca at a point in

12 time?

13 A. A lot of people did. During the night, they went to Gorazde.

14 Some remained, myself included.

15 Q. After the Muslims had fled, did this take an end to the shelling

16 or did it, nevertheless, continue?

17 A. No. No. That was not an end to the shelling. On the contrary.

18 The shelling was with some kind of inflammable shells. The shooting went

19 on. So whatever was not destroyed at first was totally destroyed and

20 burned down then.

21 Q. When was that, this particular kind of shells?

22 A. 14th, 15th, 16th of April, 1992.

23 Q. Can you tell us what happened to the houses in Donje Polje

24 neighbourhood in general?

25 A. January?

Page 728

1 Q. Generally.

2 A. I have no idea.

3 Q. That was obviously a mistake in the interpretation. In general, I

4 said, to the whole of the Muslim houses of Donje Polje.

5 A. Well, what was not destroyed by the shelling was burned down

6 later.

7 Q. And how do you know that?

8 A. I know that because I saw it. I could see it from my terrace.

9 I'm talking about the part of the neighbourhood that I lived in.

10 Q. What about the other Muslim neighbourhoods? Did you see what

11 happened to these?

12 A. No. I didn't even move about there.

13 Q. What happened to the mosques? Do you know?

14 A. I know only about two mosques for sure. I saw that they were no

15 longer there. One is near the former kindergarten and the other one is

16 near the former bus station. I don't know whether it's still a bus

17 station.

18 Q. When did you see these mosques being destroyed?

19 A. I did not see these mosques being destroyed; I was in the KP Dom

20 camp. However, when we travelled by bus, on the 30th of August, 1992, I

21 saw this. These two mosques no longer existed; it was just empty.

22 Q. You mentioned that many Muslims fled to Gorazde but you were among

23 those who stayed. Did you stay in Donje Polje or did you go somewhere

24 else within Foca?

25 A. I stayed in Donje Polje for one night after that together with my

Page 729

1 neighbour - I don't know whether I should mention his name or not; he's a

2 Serb - and then I went to a different part of the town of Foca.

3 Q. Which part?

4 A. Cohodar Mahala.

5 Q. Is this a Muslim neighbourhood or a mixed neighbourhood?

6 A. A mixed neighbourhood.

7 Q. And why did you go there?

8 A. My daughter lived there. We talked on the phone, and she told me

9 the situation was much better there and that I would be much safer there.

10 (redacted) and went to live there.

11 Q. You mentioned that you were in KP Dom. When were you arrested?

12 A. On the 16th of August -- oh, what am I saying? Sorry. On the

13 16th of April, in Cohodar Mahala, that neighbourhood that I already

14 mentioned.

15 Q. What time of the day were you arrested; do you recall?

16 A. Well, I think it was just before noon.

17 Q. You said you were arrested in this Cohodar Mahala neighbourhood.

18 In your daughter's home or where? Where?

19 A. Yes, yes, I was taken out of the house, myself, her husband, and

20 his uncle.

21 Q. Who arrested you?

22 A. Persons unknown to me.

23 Q. Were they policemen or soldiers or civilian persons?

24 A. They had some kind of olive-green/grey uniform that belonged to

25 the JNA, that I used to wear before. They were in camouflage uniforms.

Page 730

1 Nobody wore civilian clothes or a police uniform.

2 Q. You said you did not know them. Does that mean they were not from

3 Foca?

4 A. Those who arrested us were not from Foca for sure. However, I'm

5 not claiming that I have to know all the people from the territory of the

6 municipality of Foca, which is very big from a human and geographical

7 point of view.

8 Q. Did the soldiers tell you why you were arrested and what was going

9 to happen?

10 A. Well, my wife and daughter started to wail and they asked what

11 would happen to us, and then they said they would return us after we make

12 statements. And about 150 metres away, in the yard, there were already

13 people gathered there and there were more and more people coming, and I

14 saw, recognised, two men I knew. That was Ranko Pijano -- Ranko Pijano

15 and Puko Mitrasinovic, Goran Mitrasinovic, called Puko.

16 Q. Who were they?

17 A. Goran Mitrasinovic was a worker, as far as I know. Perhaps he

18 went to work elsewhere afterwards; he worked in Sipad Maglic before.

19 Ranko Pijano was a lawyer in the former Focatrans, and then when the firm

20 split up, then he was in the Viner firm and he worked in some of the

21 services there. He was some kind of secretary or something. I don't

22 know.

23 Q. And when you saw them, were they also in uniform? And if so,

24 which uniform?

25 A. Yes, yes. SMB, olive-green/grey, military uniforms.

Page 731

1 Q. Did you ever find out what the charges against you were and why

2 you were arrested?

3 A. No, no, I never found out. I was not accused and I did not stand

4 trial, ever.

5 Q. You mentioned other people being gathered already in a yard. How

6 many people were gathered?

7 A. When I arrived, perhaps 50 people or even more; but finally, when

8 they took us to the KP Dom, I think there were almost 200 people. Perhaps

9 a bit more; perhaps a bit less. But you have to understand the situation

10 as it was. Nobody counted them.

11 Q. And were only male people being gathered there?

12 A. Men.

13 Q. And did you know what ethnicity these people had?

14 A. Muslims.

15 Q. All of them?

16 A. All.

17 Q. And what ages did these people have, between the youngest and the

18 oldest?

19 A. Well, from the age of 16 or 17 up to 80. How could I know? My

20 son-in-law's uncle was 75, for example.

21 Q. Did you have a weapon before the war or during the war?

22 A. No, no, I never had any weapons.

23 Q. Did you take part in the fighting in any way?

24 A. No, never.

25 Q. And of those people you knew among those gathered there in the

Page 732

1 yard, can you say if they were civilians, or were there fighters among

2 you?

3 A. Civilians. Civilians only.

4 Q. Was there anything particular about you and these other men that

5 you had in common that might have been a reason for the arrest?

6 A. Well, probably the reason was because they were Muslims. I don't

7 know what other reason there could be.

8 Q. On this day when you were arrested, were you mistreated by the

9 soldiers present?

10 A. Not at that place, at least I did not notice over there at that

11 place, as we were waiting for the buses to take us to the camp. However,

12 in the camp, as we were entering the compound, we went in through the gate

13 where the furniture was being taken out. Usually, we were beaten up a bit

14 as we were getting out of the bus.

15 Q. So you were taken there in a bus or several buses?

16 A. There were two buses; one belonged to the National Park of

17 Sutjeska and the other one to the Focatrans work organisation.

18 Q. Did the buses drive into the KP Dom compound, or did you leave the

19 buses in front of the building?

20 A. Yes, they entered the compound of the KP Dom. I said a few

21 minutes ago that this was at the gate which was a big gate, a sliding door

22 as well, and I think that the furniture used to be taken out through

23 there.

24 Q. You mentioned that you were all beaten when you left the buses.

25 Who beat you?

Page 733

1 A. In my opinion, those were persons from Serbia for the most part,

2 because they spoke with the accent that people from there use. I didn't

3 know anyone personally.

4 Q. Those who beat, were they all soldiers, or did you see any regular

5 guards present?

6 A. No, no, at that time I did not see any guards, and I knew most of

7 them.

8 Q. Where were you taken within the KP Dom?

9 A. Room 11.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

11 show the witness now Exhibit 18, photo 7512. This is the photo.

12 Q. Witness, please look at the photo and please tell us if you can

13 see --

14 A. I see this.

15 Q. And can you show us the Room number 11 on this photo? Is it in

16 building number 1 or building number 2?

17 A. The building marked number 1. But here, on this photograph, you

18 can hardly see. It is mainly these windows there facing the garden, a bit

19 further down here, yes. And then there are windows down here, facing

20 administrative building.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the building with

22 the number 1 on top of it and it's actually the building we refer to

23 as A.

24 Q. Witness, for the rest of your testimony, please have in mind that

25 for us it is building A. And the witness is pointing at the ground floor

Page 734

1 of this building.

2 Witness, did you always stay in this Room 11 or were you

3 transferred to another room at one point in time?

4 A. I was in Room number 20 very briefly, for about three days, and

5 then for three or four days in solitary confinement.

6 Q. Can you show us the Room number 20 on this photo?

7 A. [Indicates]

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is also pointing to the second

9 floor. To make it clear, the second floor also from the top, seen from

10 the top.

11 Q. Witness, while you were in Room number 20, could you see the Drina

12 River and the bridge over the Drina in front of KP Dom?

13 A. I think you can see it, although I did not look much at the time.

14 I was given work assignments, and I was very tired, and I spent only three

15 days there. I didn't look.

16 Q. Yes. Thank you.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

18 show the witness now the photo 7476.

19 Q. Can you look at this photo? You can see the arrows on the photo.

20 What room are they pointing at.

21 A. Excuse me. Yes, you can. May I begin to answer?

22 Q. Yes, please.

23 A. These arrows are pointing for windows. The two to the right

24 are -- belong to one dormitory and the other two to the other room --

25 dormitory in Room 11, and below that is the storage space.

Page 735

1 Q. The storage space, did you ever look into it? Was it full or was

2 it empty?

3 A. While I was in the camp?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. No. No. No. I had no access there.

6 Q. And now I would like to show you another photo, and it's the photo

7 7483. It's the top photo.

8 You can see a door, and it's a little bit hard to see, but on the

9 original you can see that there is a number 11 on the door. Did the

10 door --

11 A. I guess so, because all the rooms have such doors, identical

12 doors. There is nothing to tell me whether this is a door to Room 11 or

13 not. I think that on the opposite side, the door to Room 12 is the same.

14 I can't see the number here. I cannot see the number. It doesn't help

15 that you zoomed it in. I cannot see the number really. So it could be.

16 Q. Thank you. And yet I would like to show you a floor plan that was

17 made by a witness before you, and I would like to show you the floor plan

18 6/2. Please have a look at the prisoners' building. Can you tell us

19 where Room 11 is and if it is drawn in correctly?

20 A. I think these two rooms here.

21 Q. What do you mean? What are these two rooms there?

22 A. Why, the two rooms here on this side are two dormitories.

23 Q. The Room 11 --

24 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, there has been no dispute that

25 that is Room 11, and it's been shown to a number of witnesses. They're

Page 736

1 obviously two dormitories. I think one of the witnesses described them as

2 bedrooms that belonged to Room 11. There's been no dispute at all.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That's right, Your Honour, but I would

4 want the witness to discuss in which room he was.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but you start off by looking at it from the

6 outside, and then this. We'd get along a lot more quickly if you go

7 straight to this and say, "This is Room 11," and, "Which room were you

8 in?"


10 JUDGE HUNT: You don't have to worry about leading where there is

11 something which is not in dispute.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Witness, you said two bedrooms, but actually, weren't there even

14 four bedrooms?

15 A. On this side. Listen, on this side towards the administrative

16 part of the camp and two on that side. I slept here, for instance. But

17 all this was an area which the inhabitants of Room 11 could use. This was

18 used for leisure activities by former convicts who had normal living

19 conditions, if we can put it that way. But this is the entrance here.

20 This is a small entry, and here the wash basin and the WC.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness. So you could move around in all four

22 bedrooms --

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, excuse me. The witness

24 had just explained which dormitory he was in, and we cannot read --

25 understand it through the transcript unless it is explained. He just

Page 737

1 pointed at the room.

2 JUDGE HUNT: You're quite right, and you probably had a better

3 view of it than we did because you would have heard it in the original

4 B/C/S.

5 He was moving the pointer at the time the translation came

6 through, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. If you want to know which bedroom he's in,

7 let's just ask that question and ask him to hold the pointer there.


9 Q. Witness, in which bedroom did you sleep?

10 A. Sleep. [Indicates]

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the bedroom going

12 to the back side, and it's the left bedroom going to the back side.

13 Q. But you also --

14 JUDGE HUNT: In the corner of the building, I think, might be the

15 best way to put it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. In the corner of the building.

17 Q. But you also went into the other two bedrooms who faced the

18 administration building? Is that what you said?

19 A. The remaining three. Yes, every day.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you. Let me now show you two photos, actually. One

21 photo is the photo 7495 and the other one is the photo 7503.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to have the witness shown them

23 next to each other. Only the bottom photos, please.

24 Q. If you look at the bottom photos, and in relation to the windows,

25 could you say which bedroom is which from the position of the windows?

Page 738

1 A. From the position of the windows, one cannot really conclude

2 anything because they're identical in both rooms. This was -- these

3 photographs were taken from within the rooms. If I were outside, perhaps

4 I could identify them, but otherwise, they're identical. So I just don't

5 know. You have windows here and you have windows there, even though I

6 think that the one to the left -- that the one to the right was on the

7 corner of the building. As a matter of fact, they all take the corner,

8 either the left one or the right one. But such an inside look doesn't

9 really help you identify because the windows are identical and all these

10 beds, of course, can be positioned wherever at any time.

11 Q. Witness --

12 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. It may be if we had a look at the

13 photograph on the right a little bit more carefully, there appears to be a

14 window on the right wall.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's what I just wanted to ask.

16 Q. Witness, look at the photo 7495 first alone. Yes. Yes. Maybe

17 this is better. Please have a look at the position of the windows. On

18 the lower photo, do you see that there are windows on the right side?

19 A. I see something here. This is the right-hand side if you look at

20 it from inside the room. But if I looked at it from the administrative

21 building, then this would be to the -- this would be on the left-hand

22 side.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, are we not having the

24 photographer to tell us all of this? What is the necessity of getting it

25 from this witness?

Page 739

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like the witness to point out where

2 he was standing when a certain incident happened. I would like to, but

3 okay, we can move on. I thought he would see it. Let's move on.

4 A. This room which you see on the lower photograph, that is not my

5 room because it did not have any windows on the right. From this angle,

6 it had windows overlooking the compound, the park, and these here overlook

7 the administrative building. The two windows on the left, they have a

8 view of the park.

9 Q. Thank you. We can move on. I would like to show you now the

10 window -- not the window, sorry, the photo 7499. That's the lower one.

11 Does this view look familiar to you?

12 A. Yes. This is the ground floor and the upper floor, right below

13 one of the dormitories, perhaps not more than ten metres as the crow

14 flies. And to the left, you cannot see it on this photograph, but there

15 is a door into the compound somewhere here; you cannot see it on this

16 photograph. From the camp compound, that is how you enter the

17 administrative part of the building here.

18 Q. Yes. Would that be the view you had from one of the bedrooms in

19 Room 11?

20 A. Yes, this part is what you can see from both those bedrooms. But

21 I was -- again, if we look from the administrative part towards the

22 dormitory, when this incident happened about which I guess you want to ask

23 me questions.

24 Q. Yes. And another photo, I would like to show you another photo,

25 and that's the photo 7479. Can you say which view it is? Did you have

Page 740

1 such a view from Room 11?

2 A. Well, yes, this I could see. This is from one of the bedrooms in

3 Room 11, which we just saw a moment ago. This is a view of the compound,

4 and these stairs lead from -- below here are the stairs. This is the park

5 with a path, and this is how we went up into the room. This is a view of

6 the restaurant and factories. That was the factory. This is the -- to

7 the right is the canteen, and then the rest of the buildings.

8 Q. Yes, thank you.

9 A. A diagonal view.

10 Q. Yes, thank you. And you just mentioned a door that you could see

11 from Room 11, and I would like to show you a last photo, and that's the

12 photo 7473. That is the lower photo.

13 On this photo, the door close to number 1, is that the door you

14 spoke about?

15 A. It is, yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you arrived in Room 11, were there

17 already detainees in Room 11?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How many?

20 A. Well, some 30, 40 people, and many of us were brought there, so at

21 that particular moment there were more than 100 men there. Much more than

22 100.

23 Q. And what was the highest number of detainees that ever were in

24 Room 11 at a time?

25 A. I think that it was the first day when they brought us in, and

Page 741

1 then they began the very next day to move people to other rooms. But I

2 stayed in that room. Well, there were over 100. One-hundred and fifty

3 men could have been there that first day and the next day because it was

4 really very crowded. But in a day or two or three, I don't know, people

5 were then put in other rooms, and after that it was always around 60, 70

6 men.

7 Q. Do you know why you stayed in Room 11? Could you see a system in

8 moving the people to rooms?

9 A. I wouldn't know why I stayed in Room 11. I wasn't the only one;

10 there were many others who stayed there. I don't know the reason. I

11 guess because it was just too crowded, that there was no where to lie

12 down.

13 Q. The people in Room 11 who were there then for a longer time

14 together with you, were they all Muslims, or were people of other

15 ethnicity among you?

16 A. In my room there was one Catholic, a Croat; Kruno Marinovic.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's the person in Schedule C, number 17,

18 Your Honour.

19 Q. In what health state was Mr. Marinovic when you saw him?

20 A. In a very poor state; beaten over, his cheekbone broken, many

21 bruises on his body.

22 Q. The other people in the room, what age did they have?

23 A. They belonged to all age groups. The eldest ones were 70, 75 and

24 the youngest, around 16, I think. There was a boy, Soro, who was 14.

25 Q. What state of health did these other people have? Were there sick

Page 742

1 people among you, handicapped people?

2 A. At that time there were no sick people there, I mean people who

3 would have to lie down because of a fever or something. But afterwards

4 people gradually lost strength, lost weight, and quite a number of them

5 were beaten many times over.

6 Q. You mentioned Mr. Marinovic. How old was he?

7 A. Well, he could have been a year or two, maybe four or five younger

8 than I am, but that is only my opinion. He could have been four or five

9 years my junior, perhaps more -- no, not more. But he's younger than I

10 am.

11 Q. And who was he? What was his profession; do you know that?

12 A. I think -- I know what he did of late. He was a mechanic; he

13 repaired TV receivers and things like that. Before that he worked for

14 Zenica TV, for Sarajevo TV, and he was a lighting master. I think that's

15 what you call it but I'm not sure. I do not know whether this is the

16 term, really, but he was responsible for lighting, when you work with

17 lights, when you want to shoot something.

18 He was also a journalist a little bit. He dabbled in journalism.

19 As a matter of fact, I do not really know him. But one man, I think,

20 threatened him, "Uh-huh, you've written," and it was published in Zagreb

21 or something. But whether he was a professional journalist or not, I

22 really don't know.

23 Q. You said that he was injured. Did he get medical care for his

24 injuries?

25 A. No.

Page 743

1 Q. Could you see how many detainees were in the other rooms? Could

2 you estimate altogether?

3 A. At that moment, no. At that moment, no, because people were being

4 brought in or out all the time. But later, after perhaps 15, 20 days,

5 perhaps a month, because of the position of Room 11, we tried to count

6 people. Once we counted 700, 708, 705, but it does not mean that it was

7 really very accurate. There could have been more men or a less, perhaps a

8 few more or a few less.

9 Q. As far as you knew those people you saw, did they all come from

10 Foca and the surrounding villages, or did they also come from elsewhere?

11 A. As far as I know, they were people from Foca and adjacent

12 villages. But of course it is quite possible that they were -- oh, yes,

13 yes, yes -- sorry, yes.

14 A busful of people came with people from the Montenegrin coast,

15 people who were from Gorazde, Cajnice, Srebrenica, Trebinje. As far as I

16 can remember, those men had fled there and registered with the Red Cross,

17 but somehow people went there and rounded up some 50 of them. And I know

18 that there was one from Trebinje, four or five from Srebrenica, four or

19 five, as far as I know, from Gorazde, and two, three from Cajnice.

20 Q. When did these people arrive? When did these detainees arrive in

21 KP Dom? Do you remember the month, maybe?

22 A. Perhaps late May or early June. I wouldn't know; I really wasn't

23 up to any statistics.

24 Q. Were women ever detained in KP Dom?

25 A. All I know is that one night a busload of women and children was

Page 744

1 brought there in late evening and so they spent the night in the compound,

2 but they were not there after that.

3 Q. You said that in the beginning there were these soldiers there.

4 While these soldiers were there, did any beatings occur?

5 A. It was a daily occurrence, in passing, yes, but they did not stay

6 long. I mean, I don't claim it was a day or two more, a day or two less,

7 or ten days, but they took over the -- but then the camp was taken over by

8 policemen, that is, former policemen. There were not many. There were

9 also some other people who were milling about, but they were, by and

10 large -- the guards were, by and large, the former guards.

11 Q. When did they take over?

12 A. Well, say, for about ten days, seven, eight, ten days -- seven,

13 eight days after the camp was established, and I think it began to be

14 settled then. They were Serbs, and they used the dialect that is not

15 spoken in Foca so I assumed that they came from Serbia, because that is

16 where they use this dialect. Moreover, some of them talked.

17 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you here. I was asking you about the

18 guards who took over, and you said that they were the former guards you

19 knew. What kind of uniforms did they wear, the former prison guard

20 uniforms or military uniforms?

21 A. Yes, they were in uniforms, except one or two who were in

22 camouflage uniforms. But otherwise they were guards.

23 Q. Were they police uniforms or --

24 A. Blue police uniforms.

25 Q. What kind of weapons did they have, if any?

Page 745

1 A. Do we begin with the knives or pistols or Kalashnikovs?

2 Q. Just tell us what you saw on the guards as weapons.

3 A. Well, say, they had, if you call it a weapon, the axe handles, for

4 instance, and knives. Often they would throw knives at the acacias. And

5 they had pistols and automatic weapons.

6 Q. Were there any Serb prisoners in the KP Dom while you were there?

7 A. Yes. Some men were singled out there. They did not mix with us.

8 There were some people, and I knew two or three of them. One even cried

9 to me as I was coming from the canteen. He said, "Hey," and mentioned my

10 name, and said, "Look, I'm here too. They locked me because I wouldn't

11 take up the rifle."

12 Q. And where were these Serb prisoners kept, in which part of

13 KP Dom? Do you know the room number or the wing?

14 A. I don't know which room -- which number of the room. I know they

15 were in the wing where these solitary confinement cells were, only above

16 it, on the upper floor.

17 Q. The solitary confinement cells, in which building were they, in

18 the building A where Room 11 was or in the other wing?

19 A. Neither in building A with Room 11 nor B with Room 20. There is a

20 separate wing which is the transfers wing.

21 Q. Have you ever been take taken to these isolation cells?

22 A. Unfortunately, yes.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

24 show the witness the floor plan 6/2.

25 Q. Please have a look at this floor plan. And can you show

Page 746

1 us --

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: You have to move it a little bit. You have

3 to move it to the left. Yes. No, the other way. Yes.

4 Q. Can you show us -- do you recall in which isolation cell you

5 were?

6 A. I think the last one here, number 5.

7 Q. Yes. And -- yes. Thank you. And now I would like to show you

8 two photos, and it is 7525 and 7526. Please have a look at the photos and

9 tell us if the isolation cell you were in looked kind of similar.

10 A. This is solitary confinement, a solitary confinement cell, its

11 inside. I think it is self-explanatory. You see how dirty the toilet

12 is.

13 You can't see it on this photograph here, but there should be a

14 faucet here that can be opened, but you can't really see anything here.

15 There is something black here and then this is the toilet. This is what

16 it looked like in my cell at least.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Usher.

18 Q. Why were you taken there?

19 A. Why? Well, I was supposed to work in the kitchen, and I worked on

20 the distribution of food for three days. I felt sorry for person 115. I

21 gave this person an extra slice of bread which was very small.

22 Q. And what happened? Did someone see that?

23 A. He saw it in his hands, and then he asked him, "Where did you get

24 this?" Then he said he got it from the man who was distributing bread

25 that day.

Page 747

1 That was Pilica Blagojevic. Pilica was his nickname. I can't

2 remember his name any more. He was a guard. He came in there where the

3 food was being distributed, and he asked who was handing out the bread,

4 and I said, "I am." I didn't even know why he asked me. He told me to

5 take off that white shirt and those white trousers and to report to

6 Maric. And I asked where, and he showed me the direction in which this

7 was. That is where the solitary confinement cells were. I did not know

8 what this was all about.

9 I reported to Maric, and he said, "What have you done?" And I

10 said, "Nothing." "What have you done?" "Nothing."

11 In the meantime, Pilica arrived and said that I gave bread to this

12 person. Maric put me in there, locked me up. Pilica hit me a few times,

13 hit me really bad. There were bruises and a few teeth out, things like

14 that.

15 Q. Maric, who was that? Was that another guard in charge maybe of

16 the cells or what? Who?

17 A. I don't know whether he was in charge of the cells. I think it

18 was Milomir Maric, nicknamed Mara. I don't know whether he was in charge

19 of the cells, but at that moment when I was taken to the cell, he was

20 there.

21 Q. So he was a guard?

22 A. He was a guard from before. He was a guard from before at the

23 KP Dom, and he was there while I was at the camp.

24 Q. And when did this happen, this incident in the isolation cell?

25 A. I think on the 8th of August. I think. I think I started working

Page 748

1 at the kitchen on the 5th. I worked three days. It should have been then

2 the 8th of August, 1992, of course.

3 Everything that I'm talking about is the period between the 16th,

4 17th of April and the 30th of August, 1992. So let us avoid any kind of

5 confusion. If I don't mention the year, all of it has to do with 1992.

6 That is the period that I spent in the camp.

7 Q. Who gave you the kitchen job?

8 A. Savo Todovic to me. But I don't know about the others. He was

9 before also the officer for the division of labour in the KP Dom, and that

10 is what he told us camp inmates to do.

11 Q. Did you ask him to get the job in the kitchen or did he just call

12 you out and order?

13 A. I don't know exactly. He sent one of the guards, I don't know

14 which one, and he told me that I should come with him to Savo Todovic. I

15 came there. That was also where Maric was when I was going there. There

16 are these officers there who could remember all of it now. And I when

17 arrived, he said to me that he was appointing me to distribute food, but,

18 unfortunately, this lasted only for three days.

19 Q. While he appointed you doing this job, did he warn you? Did he

20 give you a directive?

21 A. Yes. He warned me that I should not do what I did, that I could

22 lose my head if I were to give someone more food or an extra slice of

23 bread. Yes. Yes, but that really didn't remain imprinted in my memory,

24 so what happened, happened.

25 Q. You said that you were beaten and that you lost some teeth and you

Page 749

1 had bruises. Was it -- were you only beaten this one time or were you

2 beaten several times while in the isolation cell?

3 A. I was only beaten then by Blagojevic, and nobody else ever beat

4 me, because I did not stay in solitary confinement for long, three or four

5 days.

6 Q. And while you were in solitary confinement, were there other

7 detainees as well in the adjacent cells?

8 A. There were four or five cells there. They also say that also

9 there were cells on the other side. Often beatings could be heard, but

10 also conversations could be heard between cells, although people could not

11 see each other.

12 Q. Did you see that anybody was beaten at the same time as you or in

13 these few days or could you only hear it?

14 A. I could only hear it. I could not see it because there are no

15 windows there. There is just a very small opening on the door with glass

16 and also mesh. But when I was there, I don't think there was even any

17 glass. There was just this metal mesh.

18 Q. Who released you from the isolation cell?

19 A. Mitar Rasevic, commander of the guard, commander of the security.

20 I don't know. Commander of these police who guarded us.

21 Q. And did he say anything to you when he released you?

22 A. Well, he said, "You know what? I'm going to let you go although

23 you were supposed to be killed, liquidated," something like that. I don't

24 know. Something like that, roughly.

25 Q. Did he tell you more details about it, who told him that you were

Page 750

1 to be liquidated?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Witness, we have already heard other witnesses speaking about the

4 conditions in the KP Dom, and we do not have to repeat it. Did you lose

5 weight while you were in the KP Dom?

6 A. To be precise, I lost 37 kilogrammes during my 136 days in the

7 camp, at the KP Dom.

8 Q. Why?

9 A. Because of the poor food.

10 Q. Was no food available because of the war or were the rations

11 deliberately kept so low? Do you know that?

12 A. Well, I don't know whether this was intentional or unintentional,

13 but food was scarce. It would be wrong for me to say that it was

14 intentional now. I don't know that there was a scarcity of food. I don't

15 know whether it was because of the war or because they wanted to starve

16 people. I cannot say that for sure.

17 Q. Do you know if any person died due to the conditions in the

18 KP Dom? I'm not referring to violent acts. I'm referring to the

19 conditions.

20 A. Not in my room. However, it is well known that Eso Hodzic, as he

21 was called -- he was a taxi driver before -- died because his ulcer

22 perforated and he was not adequately taken care of. I don't know about

23 other cases.

24 Q. Were you locked in the Room 11 all the time or were you taken out

25 for walks in the yard while you were there?

Page 751

1 A. No. Only when we went to have meals, breakfast, lunch, and

2 dinner, and sometimes when I went to unload flour. I went once. That's

3 when I went out.

4 Q. Did you have family visits at a point in time?

5 A. Once. Once. I don't know exactly when this was. On the 9th of

6 May, I think. I'm not sure of the date, but that was the first and last

7 time my wife visited me. It was on the 9th of May, as far as I can

8 remember. After that, visits were forbidden.

9 Q. Did you request a visit or did your wife request permission to see

10 you?

11 A. Well, she probably did not request that. I didn't request that.

12 However, this was an open visit in the part of the administrative

13 building. It was very short, and a guard, a policeman, was present.

14 Q. While you were in the KP Dom, were you ever interrogated?

15 A. Yes. Yes, once.

16 Q. When was that and where did it happen?

17 A. Well, at the outset, I think, end of April, beginning of May

18 perhaps. This was in the administrative part of the building.

19 Q. And who interrogated you?

20 A. Misa Koprivica, inspector of the SUP.

21 Q. When you say "SUP," do you mean the police in Foca?

22 A. Yes. The Secretariat of the Interior. That's the police.

23 Q. And what did he want to know from you?

24 A. Well, I can tell you he treated me quite fairly. His task was to

25 ask me where I was, what I was doing, whether I was organised in some

Page 752

1 fashion. He even treated me to a cup of coffee and a cigarette, the man

2 did. He treated me very fairly.

3 However, I heard later from some others, now to what extent you

4 can believe this or not is different, that he beat them. I did not see

5 that, but he really did not treat me that way.

6 Q. You said that others were beaten by him or claimed to have been

7 beaten by him. Do you recall who told you that?

8 A. Well, the three Soro brothers were there and Cedic Elvedin, Dzemal

9 Vahida. These are actually people who are from this neighbourhood of

10 Cohodor Mahala. Now, whether he beat them, why he beat them, I don't

11 know, but he did tell me as we were talking, "Imagine, at this old man's

12 place we found a radio transmitter." And I said, "Oh, that's impossible.

13 He doesn't even know how to turn on a regular radio to listen to the

14 news. How could he know how to operate that?" "Oh, yes, he does," said

15 he. "They found it there. And also in somebody else's house, in the

16 basement, they found 100 kilogrammes of explosive."

17 I don't know whether that's true or not, but I suppose that this

18 man whom he described to me does not even know how to turn on a radio to

19 listen to the news.

20 Q. When you say "he" told you, who do you mean?

21 A. Misa Koprivica.

22 Q. Let me clarify. When did he tell you that, while he was

23 questioning you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And to which old man do you refer? Can you give us the name of

Page 753

1 this old man who was supposed to have a radio transmitter?

2 A. I can't say. It was the name of a man who I knew a very little

3 bit. I don't know who it was, actually.

4 Q. Yes. Did you see detainees being beaten in the prisoners'

5 quarters, in the rooms?

6 A. In the rooms, no. In Room 11, nobody was beaten in the room, but

7 in the administrative building, yes.

8 Q. Can you tell us who was taken out of your room and taken to the

9 administration building?

10 A. Dzemal Vahida; Elvedin Cedic, Ekinda; Hadzic; Sahinovic were taken

11 out on several occasions.

12 Q. Yes. And can you tell us, Dzemal Vahida - that's number C-27 -

13 when he was --

14 A. Dzemal Vahida, when he was taken out for beatings, I can't

15 remember the date, but it was in May for sure.

16 Q. You said that these people were taken out several times.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see them return? Let's speak about --

19 A. They returned. He, Dzemal Vahida, and Ekinda Cedic were returned,

20 one after the other. One would be taken out and then the other one would

21 be taken out when this one would be brought back, and that's the way it

22 went.

23 Q. Ekinda Cedic, does he have a different name as well? Ekinda

24 sounds to me like a nickname.

25 A. Ekinda is a nickname. Elvedin Cedic is his name.

Page 754

1 Q. That's the person C-5. Could you see what injuries they had when

2 they returned?

3 A. Disastrous. Cedic had bruises on his head. He's a young man but

4 he's kind of bald, and you could see it on his head and all over his

5 body. Vahida also had bruises. And also up here, I mean his teeth had

6 completely gone through his skin and his teeth were all broken, and he had

7 to use a straw for drinking tea and soup for several days.

8 Q. Did they tell you where exactly they had been beaten, and who did

9 it?

10 A. In one of the offices of the administrative part of the KP Dom. I

11 don't know whether I'm going to remember the name anymore. Radivoje Elez,

12 son of Gavro, nicknamed Mento. I don't know the others, but Mento was

13 there for sure, because he said that Mento sort of swirled and kicked him

14 when his teeth were broken.

15 Q. And you are talking about whom, Ekinda Cedic?

16 A. No, Dzemal Vahida, when his teeth were broken and when his

17 remaining teeth were protruding from the skin of his upper lip.

18 Q. This Mento, was that a guard?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Who was it, then?

21 A. He was a young man. I don't know exactly. I think he worked as a

22 carpenter before the war. But he came to administer justice, I guess. I

23 don't know.

24 Q. You said this happened in May. Was it during the daytime or

25 during the night-time?

Page 755












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 756

1 A. During the day. During the day. During the day they would be

2 taken out several times. One would be taken out and then he would be

3 brought back in, and then the other one would be taken out and then

4 brought back, and then the other one again. So alternately during the

5 course of the day.

6 Q. Who took them out of the rooms to the administration building?

7 Who was that?

8 A. I don't know personally who did, but in most cases it was Slobodan

9 Pejic/Boban Pejic, who took people out. He had a piece of paper with

10 people's names on it. I think that in 90 per cent of all cases, as far as

11 Room 11 is concerned, Boban Pejic/Slobodan Pejic took people from Room

12 11. I think that he was the youngest guard there and that is probably why

13 he was assigned this duty to go up and down, up and down, up and down.

14 Q. Did you see any other detainee being taken in this manner and

15 returned?

16 A. People were taken many times. I saw Aziz Sahinovic, for example,

17 and then this young Uzunovic. I can't remember his name right now;

18 perhaps I'll think of it later. He is a medical worker. He was beaten up

19 but ...

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the person C-26, and the witness is

21 actually referring to incident 5.29 in the indictment.

22 Q. Did you see Mr. Uzunovic come back, and did you see what injuries

23 he had, if any?

24 A. Well, primarily, these were bruises all over the body.

25 Q. And Mr. Azinovic, you mentioned. What kind of injuries did you

Page 757

1 see on him?

2 A. I did not mention Mr. Azinovic. I think that this is a slip of

3 the tongue. I mentioned Mr. Sahinovic. This is Aziz Sahinovic. Perhaps

4 this was a slip of the tongue.

5 Q. It was my wrong pronunciation, I'm sorry. So what did you see on

6 him?

7 A. He was beaten up very badly; he was black and blue. But he

8 complained about the area where the kidneys are.

9 Q. Did he tell you who beat him up?

10 A. Yes. He said it was the guard Burilo.

11 Q. Did he tell you where it happened?

12 A. In the administrative building, on the ground floor, somewhere

13 where I had never been; where there were some kind of chains, where before

14 they would tie up the detainees if they came in drunk, and they let them

15 lie there on the concrete floor, chained, until they would get sober.

16 Q. Did you see anyone else return from the beatings?

17 A. Maybe I can't remember, but there were such cases, there really

18 were.

19 Q. Yes. Let us now speak about those -- let us speak about another

20 incident. Did you ever hear shots in the KP Dom in relation to beatings?

21 A. I don't know what you're getting at. There were lots of shots,

22 shooting sort of into the air, in the evening when the guards would sit in

23 front of the restaurant. But I know what you're getting at. I heard

24 these shots. But there were shots, actually, when killings were

25 committed.

Page 758

1 Q. Yes, and I would like -- yes, that is actually what I'm referring

2 to. Can you tell us if you ever saw people being shot?

3 A. Yes, on the 25th of June I saw this. From 9.30 until 10.30, I

4 think it was more like 10.00, from my room they took four -- three -- four

5 men, and one was brought in from somewhere else. I knew all of them.

6 They were taken to the administrative part of the building where you can

7 see the broken glass on the window, the one I showed you a few minutes

8 ago.

9 In that area, they were first beaten up; they were choked, kicked,

10 hit with hands and feet. And then they were made to stand against the

11 wall with their hands up and they were shot with firearms.

12 I have to mention that it rained very hard outside then.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, before I go into the details of

14 this incident, I see it's 11.00.

15 JUDGE HUNT: It is by my watch, if not by the clock.

16 Yes, we'll take our adjournment now and resume at 11.30.

17 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Witness, speaking about this incident on the 25th of June, 1992,

22 who was taken out from your room? Do you recall?

23 A. They took Munib Veiz, Mustafa Kuloglija, Professor and engineer

24 Kemal Dzelilovic, and the little Uzunovic. I can't remember his first

25 name, but he was a nurse. Enes, Enes Uzunovic. Sorry, I just

Page 759

1 remembered.

2 Q. Munib Veiz, what was he by profession? Do you know?

3 A. He was a salesman.

4 Q. And Mr. Dzelilovic. You said professor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. He was an engineer and professor of mechanical engineering?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And Mustafa Kuloglija?

9 A. Kuloglija is a teacher by profession, and I believe he was

10 responsible for elementary education in the municipal administration in

11 Foca. And the little Uzunovic was a nurse, and he worked in the

12 hospital.

13 And another man, Hamid Ramovic, was taken together with them, but

14 he was not from our room. However, I knew him personally.

15 Q. Did you see him being taken to the administration building?

16 A. I did, yes.

17 Q. And who was he? What was his profession?

18 A. I believe he was a miner, a manual worker.

19 Q. Who called them out? Who called them out from your room?

20 A. Again, Slobodan Pejic, Boban. I don't know who took Ramovic, but

21 Slobodan Pejic, nicknamed Boban, called out the names of those four from

22 my room.

23 Q. Could you see where they were taken?

24 A. They were taken to the administrative part of the building, the

25 ground floor that we saw awhile ago on that photograph, with that window

Page 760

1 on the ground floor.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

3 show the witness again, and it's the photograph 7499, the lower one.

4 Q. Witness, can you show us where they were taken?

5 A. Here.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing to the second window

7 on the ground floor, counted from the left.

8 Q. How could you see that? Did you see them in this room?

9 A. I saw them in that room, but they entered from somewhere here.

10 The door is over here. You can't see it on the photograph. And there's a

11 passage. And from that passage it goes through the administrative part of

12 the building, from the street to the prison compound, and they were here

13 in this, and that is where they were liquidated.

14 Q. Could you actually see them, and how?

15 A. I saw them and I saw them well.

16 Q. Was the light on in this room?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you see anything else in the room which was maybe strange to

19 you?

20 A. In that room -- I do not know what the lady asking me questions

21 means, but during the night when the lights are out, you can still see

22 very well because there are some control lights, something that radiated

23 lights, some control instrument or something, something that produced a

24 red light but not very powerful. These are something like these control

25 lamps when you switch off your TV set, for instance, and then you see the

Page 761

1 red light. Something like that.

2 Q. Could you see who beat them in this room?

3 A. Yes, but I'm afraid I won't be able to give you the names because

4 it was eight and a half years ago. There was Dragomir Obrenovic,

5 nicknamed Obren, guard; Burilo, guard; Zoran Matovic, guard; Rade Vukovic,

6 guard; there was Predrag Stefanovic, Predo; and I can't remember others.

7 Q. Can you clearly see them, these guards?

8 A. Oh, yes, indeed, very clearly. Well, that was their night-shift.

9 That day they were on duty, and I could see them very well against the

10 light. I watched it through the window of Room 11 on the left. It's

11 perhaps less than 8 -- not as many as 8 or 10 metres as the crow flies.

12 Q. Were these guards you mentioned and these detainees you mentioned,

13 were they in this room all at the same time or were the detainees beaten

14 one after another, separately?

15 A. All together they beat them. They were all together there. First

16 they maltreated them and that was followed by what I've just told you.

17 Q. And how did they beat them, with objects for with their fists

18 only?

19 A. Fists and feet. Fists and feet. They would grab them by the

20 throat, and then when firing started, I saw Zoran Matovic move his head,

21 turn over his head with his foot to see whether he was alive still, I

22 guess.

23 Q. Whose head?

24 A. Kemal Dzelilovic's.

25 Q. And how long did the beating last? Approximately.

Page 762

1 A. Some 10 minutes. It was all over in 10 minutes.

2 Q. And could you hear the voices of the detainees or the guards?

3 Could you hear what was said?

4 A. Nobody said anything. At least one could not hear anything. Some

5 sounds, yes, but nothing that one could identify. Perhaps a wail, a sob,

6 but that is not speech, just a cry of pain.

7 Q. And you said they were shot. Did one guard shoot them or did

8 several guards shoot?

9 A. One could hear several shots simultaneously.

10 Q. Did you see the detainees fall down after the shots were heard?

11 A. Yes. Yes, I did see that. There were no more people leaning

12 against the wall; they were all on the floor.

13 Q. Could you see -- when this happened, could you see the entire

14 bodies of the detainees and the guards or parts of it?

15 A. When they were lying down on the floor, when they were dead, I

16 suppose, one could see the heads of those which were farther away from us,

17 and that is how I could see Zoka Matovic push his -- push Dzelilovic's

18 head with his foot to see if he was alive. That is what I could see. I

19 don't know. And then Zoka left, because there are stairs leading

20 upstairs, and he carried several -- he had several blankets over his arm,

21 something like army blankets, down the stairs.

22 And one could see it all very well, how they put them there and

23 then carried them out somewhere, and then one could hear a vehicle come

24 and then disappear shortly afterwards. So it's the position that they

25 just took them away somewhere. And after awhile, perhaps 10 or 15 minutes

Page 763

1 later, men came with buckets and mops or something, in olive-green/grey

2 uniforms, and cleaned that part.

3 Q. Witness, you have shown us the window, and I would like you -- the

4 window you looked through when this happened. I would like to show you

5 again the floor plan, and this time it's Exhibit 6/1. I would like to ask

6 you to look at the floor plan of the administration building. Are you

7 able to point out the room? If not, it's ...

8 A. I can't see much here, really.

9 Q. Okay. Then that's fine.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Usher.

11 Q. Maybe you can look actually on this drawing itself.

12 A. Yes, this should be it. I kept looking here, but that's the

13 canteen here, the restaurant. But it should be here.

14 Q. Just put it on the ELMO again. Could you see --

15 A. No, I can't see it once more. Now again I can't see it. Believe

16 me, I can't find it.

17 Q. Maybe when you look at --

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing --

19 A. This should be it. This should be it. Yes, now it's slightly

20 larger.

21 Q. Are you pointing at the second room from the left or to the third,

22 where there is this little "TEL"?

23 A. From that photograph, through the window on that photograph you

24 can see where this is very well. But here I just don't see any proper

25 rooms. Well, you know, I'm really not accustomed to reading ground floor

Page 764

1 maps. On that photograph I can show you very well; however, on this plan,

2 I really can't find my way around.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have a photograph of the

4 administrative building from the detainees' point of view which shows more

5 than just what we see looking out that window, which is the photograph

6 we've been operating on?


8 JUDGE HUNT: That may assist the witness to identify the room.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I think I have here the photo. That is

10 the photo 7474 and 7475, and this may be of assistance.

11 Q. Witness, if you look first on the upper photo --

12 JUDGE HUNT: For example, which is the window which appeared to

13 have the broken glass?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is the third window from the left-hand

15 side on the ground floor which is next to this water drain --

16 JUDGE HUNT: To the right of the water pipe?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, to the right of the water pipe.

18 Q. Is that the window?

19 A. That is the window.

20 Q. Let's have a short look at the bottom photo. You see it's a

21 little bit bigger. Is this the window left of the water pipe?

22 A. Left of the water pipe, I think that's the window.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. It is opposite, it is directly opposite the window through which I

25 watched.

Page 765

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Usher. You can put all the photos

2 away.

3 Q. Witness, you said that this was on the 25th of June.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How do you remember the date? Is there a particular reason?

6 A. Well, there is a very good reason: because Munib Veiz (redacted)

7 (redacted). So that is one of the main reasons why I remember the

8 date.

9 Q. Did any other detainee disappear in that same manner -- oh, wait a

10 second. Did you ever see them again or hear of them again?

11 A. Whom do you have in mind?

12 Q. I mean these five people you have just talked about. Did you ever

13 hear of them again?

14 A. I don't know. That question seems somewhat out of place, really.

15 How can I see men whom I saw being killed?

16 Q. The bodies were never found?

17 A. Perhaps they will never be found like many others, hundreds and

18 hundreds of them.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I think that the question could be asked in a

20 slightly different way, perhaps explaining to the witness that whilst he

21 believes they were dead, you have to prove that they were dead and you

22 want to know whether he ever saw them anywhere in any form again.


24 Q. Yes, Witness, you heard His Honour speak.

25 A. I heard, I did hear. Unfortunately, my answer is no. I wish I

Page 766

1 could see them alive.

2 Q. Witness, do you recall if any other detainees from your room were

3 taken away before these five and had disappeared?

4 A. Yes. A day before that, on the 24th, that was practically the

5 first time that people were taken from my room that I registered. On the

6 24th, Kruno Marinovic; Elvedin Cedic, Ekinda; Refik Cankusic, called Pepi;

7 and a young man, Alija Altoka. I know his father was an electrician.

8 Q. This person Elvedin "Ekinda" Cedic, did he also have the nickname

9 Enko?

10 A. Ekinda was his name -- Cedic, his last name, Elvedin, his first

11 name, and Ekinda, his nickname.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, on the list this person is

13 listed as number 5, but it says here "Enko Cedic," and we think this is a

14 mistake.

15 Q. Witness, who took these four out?

16 A. Boban Pejic. Slobodan Pejic, Boban.

17 Q. After they were taken, did you hear the sounds of beatings again?

18 A. No. They went to the administrative part of the building and I

19 never saw them again. They did not come back to the camp.

20 Q. Did you ever see any of them again or hear of them again?

21 A. Unfortunately, no.

22 Q. Was someone taken out from your room after this incident with your

23 relative?

24 A. Nail Hodzic, on the 26th, in the evening hours again. You're

25 going to ask me if I saw him again. No, I never saw him again, and he

Page 767

1 never came back to the camp.

2 Q. Was he taken away in a group of people from other rooms as well,

3 or was he taken alone?

4 A. He went to the administrative part of the building on his own. He

5 had to pass there. I don't know where he went, but he went to the

6 administrative part of the building alone. And it was again in the

7 evening, perhaps around 10.00 or something.

8 Q. Did you hear the sounds of beating after he had left Room 11?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And Mr. Hodzic, who was he?

11 A. I know he was a driver all his professional life. I don't know if

12 he did anything else. He was a driver by profession.

13 Q. Yes. Do you recall if anyone else was taken out later? Do you

14 recall any particular incident?

15 A. Yes. On the 28th of June, a large group of people were taken

16 away. I believe it was 37, if my memory serves me properly, and I knew

17 some of them. They were taken out of the compound and none of them ever

18 returned either.

19 Nurko Nisic, a former policeman, was one of them; Mate Ivancic, a

20 male nurse, a Catholic, a Croat; Zulfo Veiz; Fuad Mandzo; two Soro

21 brothers. And I can't really go on. Perhaps I could remember a couple of

22 names more, but it would take a lot of time. You must know that it

23 happened seven and a half years ago.

24 Q. On the 28th of June --

25 A. What I have just told you happened on the 28th of June.

Page 768

1 Q. And did you hear beatings, the sound of beatings when these

2 37 were taken?

3 A. No. They did not stay there. They were taken away somewhere, but

4 where ... I mean, they were not kept there because they were a large group

5 of people. It was a large number, 37, as far as I could count. I believe

6 there were 37. Perhaps one or two -- perhaps plus one or two -- plus or

7 minus one or two, but that was roughly the figure.

8 Q. Were they taken out in a big group all together or were they taken

9 out in separate smaller groups?

10 A. Gathered together. They all left together. They all went

11 together through that passage that I've already shown, through that part

12 of the administrative building.

13 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could speak into the microphone,

14 please.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness the Schedule C list. That is Exhibit 55.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you mind moving closer to the

18 microphones? The translators are having difficulty hearing you. Would

19 you move your chair in closer to the microphones. Thank you very much.


21 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned many of the persons listed on

22 the schedule, so we do not need to repeat their fate, but I would like to

23 ask you about some people you have not yet mentioned, if you can tell us

24 anything about them. That is, number 2 on the list, Salem Bico. Do you

25 know him and do you know what happened to him?

Page 769

1 A. Well, do I know him. He was a policeman too. Whether retired or

2 not, I don't know. He was a policeman in Foca. And as for what happened

3 to him, well, lots of things happened to him. For a long time he was

4 isolated somewhere on the ground floor. He and another one nicknamed

5 Sporna Selimovic [phoen], I think. They spent there a long time, and

6 after that they did not turn up in the camp again.

7 Q. Did you see him being taken to the administration building?

8 A. Yes. But he was there for a long time, and he never returned.

9 Q. Can you recall when you saw him for the last time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. The next person, number 3, Abdurahman Cankusic?

12 A. The next person, number 3, is Abdurahman Cankusic, brother of

13 Refik Cankusic. And I think that on the 13th of July, with Adil Krajcin

14 and one of the Soros, a big guy and an electrician, sometime around the

15 13th of July they were taken away in the afternoon and did not come back.

16 Q. And the person 6.

17 A. Yes. And 24 you have Seval Soro. Under 24, Seval Soro.

18 Q. And the person 6, Juso Dzamalija. What can you tell us about him?

19 A. I personally know him. He's an elderly man. He worked in a

20 shop. I did not see him in the camp. However, one of the guards told me

21 that he hanged himself in one of the neighbouring rooms which was there

22 for correction. I don't know whether it was a solitary confinement cell

23 or not, but I was just told that they found him one morning and that he

24 had hanged himself before that. One of the guards told me that, and I'm

25 not going to mention his name. I would mention that man with pride, but I

Page 770

1 don't want him to have any problems.

2 Q. Do you mean a guard who helped you, who was correct to you? Is

3 that what you mean?

4 A. I believe that he was a very fair person and a gleam of light in

5 all this time that I spent there. A human being with utmost dignity.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let's now move on to the person number 8,

7 Ramo Dzendusic. What can you tell about him?

8 A. I saw Ramo Dzendusic in the camp. He was not in my room. I saw

9 him for some time and then he was taken away. But I don't know by who or

10 where or when exactly. After that, he was nowhere to be seen in the

11 camp. Who took him, where, I have no idea.

12 Q. And number 9, Adil Granov?

13 A. Yes, Adil Granov. An engineer who worked in Zica. For some time

14 he was in my room. I can't remember who took him away and where, but I

15 think that he was taken away with a few other men. I can't remember this

16 very well. He spent some time in our room. A quiet man like that.

17 Q. Thank you. And number 12, Esad Kiselica?

18 A. Esad Kiselica is an electrician, I know that. And I know his

19 father. He was not in my room, although I would see him from the window

20 and in passing when we went to the restaurant. He was not in my room.

21 Q. Did he disappear from the KP Dom?

22 A. He disappeared from the KP Dom. He was there for some time and

23 then he did not appear.

24 Q. And number 13, Halim Konjo.

25 A. Number 13, Halim Konjo. He had a private catering establishment.

Page 771

1 Son of Ahmed Konjo and his mother Nusa. I don't know about him from

2 before he was in the camp, but I found out -- I don't know whether I

3 should mention the name. I found out from a man who Milorad Krnojelac

4 told that he had found him dead one morning in his office, that he died as

5 a result of beatings. Now, should I name this person or not? It is

6 really up to the Court.

7 Q. Yes, you can name this person who told you.

8 A. It is Rasim Jusufovic, a colleague, a former colleague of Milorad

9 Krnojelac. They used to work together in a school.

10 Q. When did --

11 A. What did I say? Did I say Rasim Kiselica? What did I say,

12 Jusufovic? It's Jusufovic.

13 Q. Yes. You said Jusufovic, yes.

14 A. Then it's all right.

15 Q. When did Mr. Jusufovic tell you this?

16 A. On the 31st of August, 1992, since he was deported with me to the

17 town of Rozaje in Montenegro, together with 35 other inmates.

18 Q. What did Mr. Jusufovic tell you about his conversation with

19 Mr. Krnojelac?

20 A. Well, he told me, among other things, what I told you now about

21 Konjo, and he also told me that Krnojelac had said to him, "Well, had I

22 known yesterday that this would happen -- had I known what would be

23 happening, I wish I could have died a day before that." I mean, he was

24 referring to the day before he became what he became.

25 Q. And let's move on in the list. You have already mentioned Adil

Page 772

1 Krajcin. Therefore, we go now to number 18, Omer Mujezinovic. What can

2 you tell us about him?

3 A. I don't know the name of Omer Mujezinovic. I knew a man called

4 Omer Mujezinovic, but I think that he was killed in a car accident a lot

5 before the war broke out. So I don't really know the name of Omer

6 Mujezinovic in this context.

7 Q. When you look at the numbers 21 to 23, you have several Rikalos

8 listed. What can you tell us about them?

9 A. These are three brothers. I don't know which order you've put,

10 but the one under number 21 is the oldest. I know that. He's an

11 electrician. And now as far as 22 and 23 are concerned, they're brothers

12 too. All three are brothers. But I don't know out of these remaining two

13 which one is the middle one and which is the youngest one.

14 One of them went on the 28th of June in that big group and the

15 other one remain. I don't know which one is the younger one and which one

16 is the older one out of these two. I just know that they were Rikalos and

17 nothing else.

18 Q. And all three of them disappeared or --

19 A. I don't know about the middle one. One of them remained. I don't

20 know which one it was. I don't know what happened to him. And 29 was in

21 this group, Veiz Zulfo, unless I've mentioned him already; Nurko Nisic,

22 all these names I mentioned.

23 Q. You have not yet mentioned the person number 25, Kemal Tulek.

24 A. I know who that is. I know he was in the camp. But he was not

25 with me in my room. He was not with me in my room.

Page 773

1 Q. And you have already mentioned Mr. Dzemal Vahida, and you have

2 described to us that he was beaten on several occasions. When did you see

3 him for the last time in the KP Dom?

4 A. Unfortunately, I saw him the last time on the 28th of June. He

5 was also in this group. Dzemal Vahida is also a policeman. He also left

6 in this group.

7 Q. Witness, you have described to us and you have pointed out to us

8 the room where you actually saw beatings happen. Could you hear the sound

9 of beating or screaming from other parts of the administration building

10 while you were detained?

11 A. In this part that is in front of us, specifically Enes Uzunovic,

12 he would be moaning so badly when he was beaten. I don't even know how to

13 express myself. He sounded like an animal.

14 Q. Yes, but my question was a different one. Did you hear beatings

15 from other parts of the administration building other than the part you

16 have pointed out to us already on the photos?

17 A. Well, I could not hear. I did not hear. I only heard from the

18 entrance and around the entrance because that was nearby. I could not

19 hear from over there where the windows were closed. I mean, my answer is

20 no.

21 Q. Thank you. How did these beatings and this screaming affect you

22 personally?

23 A. It created a nervousness psychologically. Well, it is

24 psychological. You know, every normal person is afraid for his own life.

25 If you see that the person next to you was taken away, beaten up, and

Page 774

1 you're expecting to be the next one, you can imagine what it was like. It

2 was awful; it was terrible; it was so sad; it was murderous.

3 Q. Besides these beatings you have described to us, did you ever see

4 a detainee being beaten in the yard or in the canteen or on the way to the

5 canteen?

6 A. Well, there were slaps, slight kicks or slight blows with a hand.

7 But anything that would be prepared specifically, well, no. I mean, you'd

8 walk by and he'd hit you or kick you, things like that.

9 Q. When you say "he," who do you mean? Anyone in particular?

10 A. The guard. Any guard. Perhaps there are only a few honourable

11 exceptions; one man for sure.

12 Q. Were detainees taken out for exchanges while you were there,

13 before you were taken, actually?

14 A. They were taken out. All were taken out, in fact, under the

15 pretext of being taken away for exchanges. Perhaps they never got there.

16 Nobody was ever told that they were being taken out to be liquidated.

17 Everybody was taken out -- I mean, these people would look very happy,

18 they would be pleased to be going to be exchanged, but ...

19 Q. How many detainees were taken out for exchange before you were

20 exchanged? Do you recall the number, the approximate number?

21 A. I mean, I can't remember. Quite a few were taken away, for sure.

22 In August, quite a lot of men were taken out in groups; sometimes 10,

23 sometimes 15 or 20. I did not keep any statistics; I mean, even in normal

24 circumstances, I'm not a statistics expert so I would not keep statistical

25 records. But I just know ...

Page 775

1 Q. Did you see these detainees later on or did some of them

2 disappear?

3 A. I never saw any of these men who were taken away before I was.

4 Q. Did the Red Cross come to the KP Dom while you were there?

5 A. Yes, once. I can't remember the date exactly when this happened.

6 A woman came from the International Red Cross with an interpreter. I

7 think it was a young girl from Foca; I did not recognise her but these

8 younger ones did. She was a young girl.

9 As soon as the woman walked in, Slavko Koroman showed up and said,

10 "You can't put any questions. You can't talk here. There is Serb

11 authority here. We are here to approve what will be discussed and what

12 will not be discussed."

13 Outside there was a group of journalists, photographers, whatever

14 there might have been. They didn't let them come in. They were between

15 those two buildings, the area that I said looked like a park. They gave

16 some cigarettes to those people, those inmates, who were at windows. So

17 they didn't really complete the job they had set out to complete. They

18 had never come again until I was released on the 30th of August. So I was

19 not even registered as an inmate.

20 Q. Mr. Koroman, who was that? What was his function?

21 A. I don't know. I was not anyone who could give orders to Koroman,

22 or I was not his employer. He was there all the time. He was a former

23 guard in the KP Dom. I think he was a retiree. He lived near me. I

24 don't know about these details, whether he had retired or not, but the

25 fact remains that he was in the camp all the time.

Page 776

1 On one occasion I talked to him a bit. Actually, on that day I

2 was taken to the transfusion department in hospital because I wanted to

3 give blood for a man who needed blood. I had a blood group, B negative,

4 which was very rare; at least in Foca it was rare. So I gave blood for

5 this person.

6 And then when I returned, I saw Koroman in the compound. He was

7 taking Sacir Smajkan, holding him under the arm. He was a judge, this

8 Sacir Smajkan, as far as I can remember. His T-shirt was bloody around

9 the neck; he was barefoot, dirty. He was a sight to behold. He looked

10 awful.

11 When he put him up there, I was standing in front of the

12 restaurant and he said, "What's up?" and I said, "Well, I had been giving

13 blood and now I'm waiting for the people from my room to come so that we

14 can go and have lunch in the restaurant, and I want to take advantage of

15 the sunshine now." He said to me, "Go into the shade a bit. You won't

16 feel well," and I said, "What happened to Sacir?" and he said, "Well,

17 leave this full alone. He got drunk. Look what he looks like."

18 Afterwards I heard a completely different story. Sacir said that

19 he was beaten up and then brought in the way he looked then and handed

20 over to Koroman in the camp. That's what I know. I don't know any other

21 details.

22 Q. Witness, you said you donated blood. Did you do that voluntarily?

23 A. Yes. Well, I mean, you can treat it any way you want to now. I

24 did not refuse it; I gave it voluntarily. But then can you understand

25 what would have happened to me if I said a resolute no? I mean, I don't

Page 777

1 even know myself what would have happened to me. But I didn't want

2 anything bad to happen to me, so as a precaution I agreed to donate

3 blood.

4 Q. Does that mean you were asked specifically to donate blood because

5 of your rare blood group?

6 A. Well, perhaps that way. I don't know exactly who came to the door

7 of our room and said, "Who has blood group B negative?" And then perhaps

8 because I was afraid or whatever, I felt as if he were looking at me, as

9 if he had fixed his gaze on me, so what else could I have done but said

10 that I had that group?

11 He drove me to hospital. There was another former inmate there of

12 Serb ethnicity. Rade Baralic, I think his name was, from Banja Luka, from

13 somewhere around Banja Luka. He also donated blood together with me.

14 Q. Thank you. Now let's talk about the camp commander. Who was the

15 warden of the camp during the war?

16 A. I repeat once again: I'm only talking about the period that I

17 spent in the camp. As for everything that was before that or after that,

18 I'm not going to talk about that and I don't want to talk about that.

19 While I was in the camp, the warden was Milorad Krnojelac.

20 Q. How do you know this? How did you get this information that he

21 was the warden?

22 A. Well, I got this information -- I mean, I saw the man a few times,

23 perhaps five or six times, as he was passing from the administrative

24 building. Also there were his security people, and he wore an officer's

25 uniform. I mean, it was no secret. His guards knew; those who were

Page 778

1 subordinated to him, they knew who their warden was. I mean, it's not any

2 secret.

3 Q. But who told you? Did the guards tell you?

4 A. A guard told me --

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection. Your Honours, I think

6 that first he should be asked whether somebody had told him, and only

7 then, who, and not putting this kind of leading question, "Who was it who

8 told you this? Was it a guard?" It is a leading question. I think that

9 first he should be asked whether anybody told him, who told him, and so

10 on. The question contains an answer that is actually being elicited from

11 the witness.

12 JUDGE HUNT: I think your point is a good one, Mr. Bakrac, but may

13 I remind you again: It's not made better by repeating it twice.

14 He hasn't actually said that he was told by the guards. What he

15 has said was, "I got this information," and then he doesn't go on to

16 explain from where; and then some lines later, he says, "His guards knew;

17 those who were subordinated to him ..."

18 Now, you have drawn the conclusion that he had been told by the

19 guards, but he really should give that evidence himself.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. So how did you get the information that he was the warden?

22 A. I got this information -- I mean, it wasn't only I; everybody, we

23 all got this information. After all, I mean, certain guards -- well,

24 again, I'm saying I don't want to mention specific names. But we had

25 pretty good contacts with some of the guards. I'm saying there were not

Page 779

1 very many of them, but there were some. Some would even give us

2 cigarettes. Somebody was friends with one of them; some with the other.

3 But I think that the real information is from the very opening of

4 the camp, and I think it was precisely the guards who were saying this.

5 And then as things developed, it was then established that that's the way

6 it was.

7 Q. Did you also hear from inmates, from other inmates that

8 Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?

9 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. Everybody. There's not a single

10 detainee, a single inmate. I'm claiming that there's not a single one who

11 had spent any amount of time in the camp without knowing who the warden

12 was. It's absurd to ask that. But then, of course, this is a court, so

13 the truth has to be established. And it's not for me to judge. It's up

14 to me to say what I know, right?

15 Q. Yes. Exactly. And did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the

16 war?

17 A. I knew him.

18 Q. Do you know who appointed him as the warden?

19 A. I don't know, but probably the ruling party. I don't know who.

20 Probably the SDS. Who else would? I don't know.

21 Q. Why do you think that?

22 A. Well, I know -- I know even in normal circumstances that a ruling

23 party appoints persons to certain responsible posts. They don't appoint

24 someone from a different party or somebody who is not a member of any

25 party. That is my assumption. That is my personal opinion.

Page 780

1 Q. Do you know if Mr. Krnojelac had a position in the SDS; that he

2 was a member?

3 A. I'm not aware of that. I was not a member of the SDS or the SDA.

4 I don't know how many there were. I was not a member of any party, so I

5 cannot make any claims. I mean, I could only guess. But I guess, I

6 guess, that he was a supporter of that party. I don't know. I'm not

7 making any claims. Let me be quite clear on that.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said that you saw him several times.

9 When did you see him? What time of the day was it?

10 A. During the day. During the day. During the course of the day.

11 Not during the night. During the day, within the compound. I would see

12 him over there, for example, towards the restaurant or as he was going to

13 the administrative building. Then there was always someone with him.

14 Probably his subordinates, security people or something.

15 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him?

16 A. An olive-green/grey officer's uniform.

17 Q. And could you see if he had a weapon?

18 A. Perhaps a pistol but not any big weapons. He didn't have any big

19 weapons in his hands like an automatic rifle when I saw him. I'm telling

20 you about what I saw and about the time when I was in the camp.

21 Q. And speaking of Mr. Krnojelac, is this the accused here in the

22 courtroom?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let me put to you at this point what the accused himself says

25 about his position. He said that the KP Dom, during the war, had two

Page 781

1 separate sections, a military part and a civilian part. The Muslim

2 detainees were in the military part and the normal convicts were in the

3 civil part, and he had nothing to do with the military part.

4 What do you say to this?

5 A. If I understood this correctly, Muslim detainees were in the

6 military part, in the military part of the prison.

7 Q. Yes. That's what Mr. Krnojelac claims.

8 A. For goodness sake. I'm a Muslim. I was there. Where was I taken

9 prisoner? What kind of a soldier was I? What kind of a soldier was a

10 14-year-old boy? What kind of a soldier was an 84-year-old man? I think

11 it's not true, and such things simply do not hold.

12 Q. Witness, Mr. Krnojelac doesn't claim that you were a prisoner of

13 war, he only says the Muslims were kept in a military part that he had no

14 dealings with.

15 What I would like to know from you is was there this division, a

16 division between a military part and a civilian part?

17 A. No. No. I state with full responsibility that there were not any

18 military prisoners while I was in the camp. While I was in the camp, I

19 repeat, no military was brought into the camp nor were there any military

20 persons there. All of these persons were civilians.

21 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned Mr. Todovic. When you saw him

22 in the prison, what was he wearing?

23 A. Are you talking about his clothes?

24 Q. Yes. Yes.

25 A. He had military olive-green/grey uniform on.

Page 782












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Page 783

1 Q. And did he have a weapon?

2 A. I did not see one, really. I mean, I don't remember seeing one.

3 Q. And how did Mr. Todovic behave towards the detainees?

4 A. Well, I said already. He assigned me to work and then, as far as

5 I'm concerned, I didn't have any other contacts with him. What happened

6 happened after working in the kitchen for three days, and I went to

7 solitary confinement, and after back to my Room 11.

8 Well, for the most part, appointed people -- I mean, I think his

9 role was to assign people to various kinds of work, I mean, convicts and

10 inmates.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, when were you released?

12 A. On the 30th of August, 1992.

13 Q. And how many detainees were released with you?

14 A. In the first attempt there were 55 men on the bus, but that bus

15 got as far as Niksic, roughly, and a white Golf intercepted the bus. The

16 bus stopped. Pero Elez then came onto the bus, looked around, look

17 around, and told the driver to go back.

18 Q. Let me interrupt you briefly. Pero Elez, who was that?

19 A. Well, Pero Elez was another of the former guards in KP Dom, as far

20 as I know, and who had been retired because of poor nerves or something.

21 I did not see him either on the eve of the war or during the war or

22 that -- I am told he was a Chetnik leader, but whether it's true or not, I

23 don't know, but he must have been something if he had the authority to

24 tell the bus with inmates to turn back.

25 Q. And was this in Montenegro?

Page 784

1 A. Yes. Yes, in Montenegro.

2 Q. Yes. Please continue with your narrative. What happened?

3 A. Well, that bus went back and that car was in front of us and took

4 us to the KP Dom. Meanwhile, he disappeared somewhere and we went back

5 into the KP Dom. To repeat, it was 55 men.

6 After we came back, they put us again in Room 11, that blasted

7 Room 11 once again, but there was nobody else there. They must have

8 distributed the others in other rooms to replenish them, but there was

9 nobody there.

10 Some 10 minutes or so later, Bozo Pejic comes with a list of paper

11 and calls out 20 names out of those 55 men, and says, "Get ready quickly.

12 You're to be exchanged."

13 That's how it was. He took them away and -- and the 35 of us

14 stayed behind. Then again, after some 10, 15, 20 minutes, more or less -

15 doesn't matter - we were told to get ready and go. So we went down to the

16 administrative building and then out. There was a bus parked. And once

17 again, Savo Todovic turned up again, called out our names. We got onto

18 the bus. He drew out our attention that the bus had curtains inside, drew

19 our attention -- warned us not to look through the windows or else

20 something bad might happen. And we were driven away. We were taken away

21 along the same route, and sometime in the evening hours, the night had

22 already fallen, we arrived to Scepan Polje, which is the boundary between

23 Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the drivers then -- the bus drivers

24 then went to a wooden shed which I suppose was the border authority or

25 something, with that list of ours names, and uniformed individuals in

Page 785

1 military uniforms then came onto the bus, beat us - I suppose we shall be

2 suffering the effects of that to the end of our lives - with automatic

3 rifle butts, on the backs, all over the body, and there was about half an

4 hour of that ill-treatment and they got off. And the drivers came back

5 with the list in their hands and we went on.

6 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you here. You said that 20 persons were

7 singled out from your group as it was in the beginning?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What kind of people were singled out? Did they have anything in

10 common?

11 A. I wouldn't say anything. It was just like that. Or perhaps

12 somebody knew those men for some reason. I mean, I don't know. I don't

13 see anything there. There were two very old men. One was 84 and one

14 60-something. But there were very young, in their 20s. So that -- I

15 don't think anything -- there's anything that I might think that they were

16 taken, singled out on the basis of some plan or something. Their names

17 were just taken from the list. Why? I couldn't really ...

18 Q. Can you tell us what happened to these people? Did you ever see

19 any of them again?

20 A. No, not -- unfortunately, never.

21 Q. And when did you meet your family again and where?

22 A. Well, you see that bus -- when you interrupted me -- so we went on

23 with that bus. And in the morning, at daybreak or somewhere around 7.00,

24 6.00, half past six thereabouts, Niksic, Titograd, Ivangrad called now

25 Baronave [phoen], to a place called Rozaje. And slightly before Rozaje,

Page 786

1 we sort of were to go to Macedonia, and that is what Savo Todovic had

2 said. But somewhere along the way between Baronave and Rozaje, Kunarac,

3 the driver, because we knew one another, and he sort of showed to me to

4 come to him, and I did so. And he said, "I really don't know. I don't

5 think that Macedonia will take you in. The best thing would be for me to

6 leave you in Rozaje, because the Muslims are a majority then." And so I

7 said, "Well, do that. So leave us wherever." And that's how it was. The

8 bus terminal in Rozaje, we stopped and --

9 Q. Witness, we do not need all the details.

10 A. Well, I was saying it because that is where I found my wife, who

11 had arrived with a convoy -- left for Foca with a convoy 14 days before

12 that.

13 Q. Thank you. And you have already told us about your weight loss,

14 and you have told us about your injuries you received during the beating.

15 Did you suffer any permanent physical consequences as a result of the

16 conditions or your beating in the KP Dom?

17 A. Well, my mental health, psychologically, I'm not all right. And

18 often -- now I know what my brother's name is, now I simply can't remember

19 it. Yes, of course, there are consequences, but one has to live and go

20 on.

21 Q. What consequences? Do you mean -- these psychological

22 consequences, what are they?

23 A. Well, I have trouble sleeping; it's very seldom that I sleep more

24 than two hours a night. I shake; my hands sweat; I'm very nervous.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness.

Page 787

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the

2 Prosecution.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

4 Cross-examination?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

7 Q. First, let me introduce myself to the witness and tell him that my

8 name is Mihajlo Bakrac, and to wish him a good day. I represent here the

9 accused Milorad Krnojelac. Good afternoon to you.

10 In the beginning of your testimony, Witness, when asked by the

11 Prosecutor, you said that in your building, some four or five Serbs had

12 stayed in your building?

13 A. Yes, I did say that.

14 Q. Since you also said that Donje Polje was an area which was mostly

15 Muslim, what was the ethnic ratio in your building?

16 A. I think -- well, I need a little time to -- I believe it was

17 half/half. There were 29 apartments, and there were 14 of one and 15 of

18 the other, so I believe something like that. I do not know, but I think

19 it was fairly -- fairly balanced, fairly even.

20 JUDGE HUNT: May I point out that when you are both speaking the

21 same language, you must pause before the answer is given and before the

22 next question is asked so that the translators can keep up. Thank you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, will you be so kind and tell me if you remember an SDA

Page 788

1 rally in Foca.

2 A. Yes, I remember that rally in Foca. Do I remember it. And

3 (redacted), that rally.

4 Q. Do you remember how many people attended the rally?

5 A. I haven't finished my answer yet. I can tell you that I did not

6 attend the rally, and at that time I was in my summer cottage, which is

7 about 10 kilometres from my home.

8 Believe me, if you mean my political option, I had none. I did

9 not support any party, I never supported any party, and I am a

10 peace-minded -- a passivist. So believe me, I did not attend it. I heard

11 that very many people were there, that there was a rally and that very

12 many people were there, but I was not present, neither I nor my family.

13 Q. Witness, I want to be clear. I wasn't trying to intimate by my

14 question that that was what I was driving at, whether you were a member.

15 I do not doubt what you have just told us.

16 What I want to know - and you have answered it in part, that you

17 heard that very many people had been there - will you agree with me that

18 it was said between 100.000 and 150.000, that is, those are the figures in

19 the press and the rumour?

20 A. I know only as much as you do. From the press, yes, the figure of

21 100.000 was mentioned, but I did not see them. I mean, I did not.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if, in the statement that you made to

23 the Prosecutor's Office in 1995, you spoke about the SDS rally which

24 brought together 10.000 people?

25 A. Again, I do not know how many people. Again, I can tell you that

Page 789

1 I wasn't there. It was in the football stadium. I know of the Sutjeska

2 Club; that is what I do know. But again I was not there. I repeat: I

3 was away. Because those rallies usually took place over the weekend, so

4 that again I was out in my summer cottage and I wasn't in the town.

5 Q. I agree. But I'm asking if it is correct that you said, "I heard

6 that there were some 10.000 people present"?

7 A. Well, I suppose so, I guess so. I don't remember anymore at all.

8 You must know that it was a long time ago and I am of an advanced age. I

9 may have said that I heard that. Just as I heard that there were about

10 100.000 at that other rally, I may have heard that there were 10.000 at

11 this one. But I wasn't at either of them, and you cannot say that I was

12 present at a rally and I counted all those people present. That is what I

13 heard.

14 Q. Precisely, that is what I said, Witness. I did not say that you

15 were there but --

16 A. I know what you said. I know what you said.

17 Q. Is it also true that in that statement you said that all the

18 trouble started because of the aspiration of Serbs to come together, to be

19 united in one state, and that includes that rally?

20 A. Rally -- as a rally, I exclude, but I know what I heard around

21 cafeterias and shops or at work. And even with my closest friends, I

22 would have an argument. All Serbs in one state, that was the proclamation

23 of the Serb Democratic Party, and you have to grant that. Well, you don't

24 have to, but that was the proclamation of the Serb Democratic Party, of

25 the SDS.

Page 790

1 So I'm not trying to underestimate, to understate, the

2 proclamations of other parties, I'm not trying to do that, because I

3 should say that on either side there were as many such things as you

4 please.

5 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. I'm

7 trying to speed things up because I have a few questions on this subject,

8 and I know how the Court wishes to learn about this subject. But certain

9 things are important to me, and I'm simply trying to cut the answers

10 short, just bearing in mind the time. I hope this is not being

11 misinterpreted.

12 JUDGE HUNT: You may get shorter answers if you ask different

13 questions, if I may suggest that. But this business about the political

14 rallies, surely, is of very minor importance. Whether there was an attack

15 upon one or more civilian populations doesn't really matter. The

16 Prosecution only has to prove that there was at least one, and the fact

17 that there may have been an attack upon the Serb civilian population by

18 the Muslims doesn't seem to affect that. So could we get on to what

19 really is in issue here.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand this

21 perfectly, but I think that the Prosecution also went into that. But I

22 won't waste too much time. I only have two questions more on the

23 subject.

24 Q. So in line with what you just told us, didn't the Serbs already

25 live in one state in the former Yugoslavia?

Page 791

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So why would they need another state, since they already had one

3 state?

4 A. Well, I wasn't in any political organisation so don't ask me that,

5 please.

6 Q. Now, my last question on the subject: In your view, in the area

7 where the population distribution was roughly 50/50 and at a meeting of

8 one ethnically-oriented party we have 100.000, 150.000, and the other one

9 is attended by 10.000 people, doesn't that represent real grounds for fear

10 of that side which could bring together only 10.000 people at a rally?

11 A. Sir, this is again a political issue and I'm not a

12 politically-minded person. Thank you for asking me those questions, and

13 they are quite decent questions, but please don't try to embroil, to

14 involve me in politics because I have nothing to --

15 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you. I shall move on to some

16 specific matters that you mentioned in your testimony.

17 Is it true that in your statement you told the investigators of

18 The Hague Tribunal, on the 4th and 5th September of 1995 -- that you made

19 a statement to them?

20 A. Yes, yes, it is.

21 Q. Did you make this statement of your own volition?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Is it correct that to the investigators of The Hague Tribunal you

24 gave yet another statement on the 14th of November, 1998?

25 A. Yes.

Page 792

1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, it may be a small point but it is an

2 important one: The investigators are not the investigators of The Hague

3 Tribunal, they are the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor,

4 which is completely independent of the Tribunal. It may be different in

5 other countries, but in the system we work under, there is no relationship

6 between the Prosecution and the Tribunal.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. My

8 apologies. The legal system that I come from is somewhat different;

9 hence, this.

10 Q. So you made both those statements of your own free will.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So will you please explain: Did you, in 1995, remember better --

13 did you have a better recollection of the events in 1995 than in 1998?

14 A. Of course, 100 per cent. And I'm sure that this year I don't know

15 what I knew in 1998. Senility, I think, is a natural phenomenon so that

16 that's how things are.

17 Q. Then how do you explain that -- I'm referring to the incident

18 which, to say the least, was very unpleasant to you, that is, the incident

19 of the 26th of June --

20 A. I think it was the 25th.

21 Q. Yes, I apologise, the 25th. That about the incident of the 25th

22 of June which happened in the evening hours - you said about 10.00, half

23 past - how is it possible that then, in 1995 - now you tell us that you

24 remember that event best - how is it that, in 1995, you told the

25 investigators of the Prosecutor's Office that what you saw was an incident

Page 793

1 which had taken place in the passage of the administrative building?

2 A. Sir, that part of the administrative building is all passage to

3 me, that ground floor, and windows also are part of that, because I went

4 through that passage four or five times. Once I entered; secondly, I went

5 for a visit; that is, when my wife came to visit me, I was again there and

6 I had a guard standing beside me. And that did not look like an office to

7 me. Once, when I went to load flour, I also went through it, and twice as

8 they were escorting us through, and it simply looked like a passage to

9 me. It doesn't look like a room, like a furnished room. It simply looked

10 like a passage. I think that is the only misunderstanding. There can be

11 no other misunderstanding about that.

12 Q. Did the Prosecutor's investigators show you the photographs when

13 you were giving them your second statement on the 4th and 5th of

14 September?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Is it correct that in your second statement you said: "When I

17 said in my previous statement that the murder happened in a passage, that

18 was an error. The passage had a door so it would be impossible to see

19 through once the door was closed."

20 A. Well, you see, there must be some misunderstanding. It wasn't

21 through this door because my position was not such to watch through the

22 door. I would have to be in that passage to watch through the door, and I

23 was watching it through the window of my room, which was number 11. So I

24 couldn't look around the corner through the door.

25 Q. Yes. Now it is clear when you tell us so, but in 1995 you said

Page 794

1 something different.

2 A. Well, it must have been a misunderstanding, whether it was a

3 translation or what. But you must believe me when I say that I saw what I

4 watched through the window. I could not watch it from the other side. I

5 watched it directly through the window, just as I look now. I could not

6 look through the door.

7 You saw the photograph, I remember it well, and that slightly

8 protruding part, it is not frontal at all. So I couldn't look through the

9 door even if I wanted to.

10 Q. I know you couldn't. But then how could you state in your first

11 statement that you saw that in the passage, and that it was only in 1998

12 that you realised it was impossible?

13 A. That passage, I've already explained it to you. It just looks as

14 one piece. That is how I see it; that is my view.

15 Q. Do I understand you well when you say that that window, which you

16 identified, of the room which you identified today, that you define it as

17 the passage?

18 A. That is how it looks to me, because I did not go into it. But

19 what I could see through the window with the broken glass and with lights

20 on, I saw it. To my mind, it was something like a passage, because there

21 were no desks or anything where those people were beaten and killed

22 there. I don't know if you're trying to provoke me or what.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Will, please, counsel and the witness make a

24 pause between question and answer.

25 JUDGE HUNT: You are being asked to pause. It's very difficult

Page 795

1 for us to interrupt you all the time, but almost since I last warned you,

2 you have been starting the question before the translation is finished.

3 Now, I'm not suggesting you should listen to a translation to

4 confuse you, but you can probably hear in your earphones that there is a

5 translation going on, and please just wait for the end of it.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise once

7 again. The effect of cross-examination is lost through interpretation,

8 but that is nobody's fault, but I apologise. That is the only reason.

9 JUDGE HUNT: If you want us to hear what's going on, I'm afraid

10 you're also going to have to lose that advantage. But I assure you that

11 cross-examination can be stopped even if you -- if we're all understanding

12 the same language if you start to shout the witness down, and that's what

13 it sounds like to us. So please just pause. We'll all get on a lot

14 better.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Witness, did I understand what you said? If I did, you said that

17 that room was empty.

18 A. Well, perhaps there was something on the floor, some small things,

19 but it looked empty to me. Looking from my window in its far right corner

20 was that -- I don't know what it was. There was a tool of a kind.

21 Again, I say I don't know what it was. Perhaps it was something to do

22 with the electric power, with electricity. I don't know. But there were

23 red lights. Red lights could be seen when other lights would be out. So

24 there was some instrument, some device of a kind, something. I don't know

25 what.

Page 796

1 Q. But that device, you did not mention it in either your first or

2 your second statement.

3 A. Perhaps I did not. I don't know why I didn't. I suppose I wasn't

4 asked about it.

5 Q. But this is purely for information's sake, for you, because you

6 say -- you said -- you said that it was empty.

7 A. Well, there was something in that corner, but it wasn't really

8 particularly conspicuous, and you couldn't really see any tables, any

9 desks or anything from Room 11.

10 Q. But could you judge what it was? What kind of a device was it?

11 A. Well, I suppose some control board perhaps. Perhaps power control

12 panel or something. I don't really know. I don't think a device. I

13 don't think it was a machine. It was an apparatus or something like

14 that.

15 Q. But do you think it could have been a telephone switchboard?

16 A. Yes, you're quite right. Could have been. Could be perhaps. It

17 simply did not cross my mind. It didn't occur to me, but, yes, it could

18 have been.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is 1.00. I have a

20 few more questions, so ...

21 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right. We'll take the break. You've been

22 giving the translators a very bad time. We'll resume again at 2.30.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.



Page 797

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. Witness, before the break, we talked about the premises where

5 these unfortunate incidents occurred, and you said that you allow for the

6 possibility that the devices you saw were a telephone exchange.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

8 microphone.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, could you move up closer to the table again

10 so that the translators can hear you. Thank you.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. So you repeated that on that table there was a small lamp, a

13 little light. Were those little lights on when you looked from the

14 window?

15 A. I can't remember. The light was on in the room, and it would

16 probably be more obvious to me than when the room was dark.

17 Q. Does that mean that from your window you could see these lamps

18 turned off? How big are they?

19 A. Well, about as big as these buttons here in front of me on the

20 video monitor, the computer monitor.

21 Q. And you managed to see that from the room that you were watching

22 all of this from?

23 A. Only when they were on. Only when they were on. When there is no

24 light during the night you could see these little red lights.

25 Q. Does that mean that on the critical evening when you were

Page 798

1 watching, the light was not on in that room?

2 A. On the critical night, the light was on in the room. If you are

3 referring to the night when --

4 Q. Yes. Yes.

5 A. The one that's mentioned, the 25th.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. It was on. The light was on.

8 Q. Although the light was on, you saw that these little lamps were

9 on?

10 A. No. No. When I say the little lamps were on, I could see that

11 all the time, for months while I was there, when the lights were not on.

12 And I think that this has nothing to do with the incident that I talked

13 about. Perhaps I mentioned this just in passing, just tentatively. I

14 think that these little lamps have nothing to do with the incident. That

15 is my opinion.

16 Q. Did you mention these little lamps so that you would identify the

17 room?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How big a part of this room that we are discussing now could you

20 see from your window?

21 A. Well, let's say viewed from the window, more than a half of this

22 other -- this other half of the room. For example, if I'm looking from

23 here now, I can see, say, from my table here to that table there.

24 Q. All right. The half from the window to the middle of the room.

25 A. Yes. More than a half, because my room was higher up, if you look

Page 799

1 at the configuration of the ground.

2 Q. Since you are saying this now, is it correct that when you spoke

3 to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor, you said that the

4 persons were lined up against the wall opposite the window of that room.

5 A. Yes. Facing the wall, their backs turned to us.

6 Q. How could you see this since only a minute ago you said that you

7 could see only half, a bit more than half of the room?

8 A. I think that this is a bit provocative. It is the part of the

9 room that can be seen. So it is the opposite half, the other half. They

10 had their backs turned to us.

11 Q. Sir, in your statement you said, and you confirmed now, that they

12 lined them up against a wall, that is, opposite the wall where the window

13 was.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. A few minutes ago you said that from the position you were

16 watching, you could see up to half of the room or a bit more than half of

17 the room, the half and a bit more than half of this room from the window

18 to the middle of the room. Then I'm asking you: How could you see the

19 persons who were lined up against the opposite wall?

20 A. I cannot understand what kind of confusion this is. I think it's

21 quite simple. If you see part of what you see in front of you, the

22 middle, then you can see the people who are lined up against the wall over

23 there. I think that's quite clear, clear as daylight. Why is this

24 misunderstanding there?

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm not suggesting you must accept what

Page 800

1 he has said, but he has said very clearly that the half of the room which

2 he could see was the far half. Now, it's no good asking him the same

3 question all the time. You may challenge that if you wish, but that's

4 what he said, and, if I may say so, he said it very clearly.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know whether

6 there's a mistake in the translation. It was my understanding, on the

7 basis of what was interpreted, on the basis of what you said, that he saw

8 the further half of the room, the one that was further away from the

9 window.

10 JUDGE HUNT: That is right, and that is where they were lined up

11 against the wall. Now, as I say, you don't have to accept his statement,

12 but that's what he has said. So it's no good asking him the same question

13 each time to produce the same result.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did the witness see these persons or, rather, did he see where the

16 guards were in relation to these detainees?

17 A. They were facing these men and they had their backs turned to the

18 window. Before that they physically mistreated them. There was general

19 commotion. That is my position. Those men were there.

20 Q. So the guards had their backs turned to the window.

21 A. I think that things are getting complicated. I mean, in this

22 room, is somebody turned half left, half right? It is enough to say that

23 somebody was in this room. Now, whether he's turned half left, half

24 right, I don't know, it's of no consequence to me. But then I'm not a

25 lawyer.

Page 801

1 Q. You said that there were five prisoners in the room; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Of course there were.

4 Q. How many guards were there?

5 A. Those that were mentioned and perhaps some I could not remember.

6 Again, I'm saying I did not keep statistical records.

7 Q. Can you give me the number? You said those mentioned and others.

8 Just give me the number of guards who were present.

9 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't tell you how many. Five or

10 six or seven, I can't tell you that.

11 Q. Approximately?

12 A. Five or six men for sure. But all of this is an approximation,

13 sir. Again, I'm saying I was not there as a statistics expert who was

14 keeping records. I was a man who was -- well, I don't have to explain

15 this to you. You know this full well. And the fact that I am so

16 particularly affected by this detail in the camp is quite understandable.

17 Q. Sir, I'm truly sorry about that, but I do have the right to put

18 questions to you, and I do hope I'm trying to do this as decently as

19 possible.

20 A. Go ahead and ask.

21 Q. Did you see some weapons in the guards' hands?

22 A. I think they had pistols, not longer firearms.

23 Q. When you say "I think," does that mean that you're not sure?

24 A. I am sure.

25 Q. You said that you viewed this incident from Room 11 --

Page 802

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. From a part of that room which is on the left-hand side in

5 relation to the administrative building?

6 A. If you are looking from the administrative part of the building,

7 then it is on the right-hand side; if you are looking at the building

8 where Room 11 is, then it's the left-hand side.

9 Q. Were there any beds in that room?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where did the prisoners sleep? I mean, in the room that you were

12 looking from, from where you were observing this.

13 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes. But I thought you were asking me about the

14 room where this incident occurred. There were beds in that room.

15 Q. Were there any beds, bunkbeds, the way we saw them on the

16 photograph?

17 A. Yes. Wire beds or, rather, metal beds as we used to have in the

18 army, made of metal and then there was this metal net, mesh, underneath.

19 Q. Were these beds next to the window?

20 A. Well, they -- the beds were put wherever it suited people, this

21 way or that way. There wasn't any rule or anything.

22 Q. In addition to yourself, who else observed this event?

23 A. Well, I could give you 20 names for sure. Muhamed Lisica, one of

24 them for sure, and the two Soro brothers, Esad and his younger brother, 14

25 or 15 years old. Esad Soro. Then there was Rasim Merkez, Muharem

Page 803

1 Merhabovic. Lots; over 30 men. Muhamed Lisica was next to me for sure,

2 and Rasim from Josanica. I said the name just now. Merkez. Merkez.

3 Muharem Bacvic and many others, many other men.

4 Q. Did I understand you correctly that all 20 of you viewed these

5 events from the windows?

6 A. As I said, not all 20 of us could watch, but I was watching,

7 Muhamed Lisica was watching, Rasim was watching also, and two on the

8 side. The lights were out, and our heads were on the windows, on the

9 glass.

10 Q. You said that there was a lot of rain that night.

11 A. Yes. Yes. It was raining very hard, especially at that moment.

12 Perhaps it started half an hour before that. It was raining very, very

13 hard outside.

14 Q. Were the windows closed in the room?

15 A. No. No. The glass was broken on that window. How and why and

16 when, I have no idea. If that glass was not broken, one could not see

17 that much. Perhaps we could not see any of it.

18 Q. On the other windows at that level -- actually, were the other

19 windows at that level painted with white paint?

20 A. Not over there. They were not painted over.

21 Q. Witness, do you remember having said before the break that you saw

22 a guard walking upstairs and carrying blankets?

23 A. Yes. Yes. Zoka Matovic.

24 Q. You saw him on the stairs.

25 A. Well, from that room you can see the stairs that are slanted and

Page 804

1 that lead to the next floor. I was not in that room, so could I not say

2 what the ceiling was like, but you can see the stairs that go further up

3 very nicely, and also that he was on those stairs and carrying a few

4 blankets, olive-green/grey. He was carrying them on his arm.

5 Q. The window from which one can see the stairs, is that right next

6 to the window that you were watching?

7 A. I cannot decipher which window you are referring to, but from the

8 opening, you could see -- I mean, through the window you could see the man

9 going upstairs and carrying the blankets over his arm. I mean, I'm not an

10 expert. I cannot say whether you could see it from this window or that

11 window, but you could see the man carrying these blankets.

12 Q. I am only interested in having you tell me which window this is in

13 relation to the window that you identified as the window through which you

14 watched this event. From which side and whether it's the first or second

15 window or whatever. If you could do this without the assistance of the

16 photograph.

17 A. I could not say, but it could be seen -- it could be seen when he

18 went up. You could see the stairs and also when he was going up, and you

19 could see the slant. That is the truth. And now whether it is that

20 window or the one next to it, but at any rate, it was slanted and he was

21 walking up from one room to another.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, may I remind you, please pause before the

23 answer. I know you are very involved in this, but for us to get on, the

24 translators have to have that pause.

25 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

Page 805

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

2 Q. Witness, in your statement given to the investigators of the OTP,

3 did you say that every detention building had a series of solitary

4 confinement cells?

5 A. I know, I mean, about my part, but two buildings are linked. I

6 know that there were solitary confinement cells underneath the stairs. I

7 don't know whether there's one or two, but that's where that man hanged

8 himself, the one I mentioned. Also, there were some beatings there and

9 things like that. And then on the other hand, there are those other

10 solitary confinement cells. I mean, this is a big compound and all the

11 buildings are attached. It's not that there are any detached buildings

12 there.

13 Q. You said now that in your part - let's call it A or an inverted

14 "F".

15 A. The entire complex of buildings looks like an inverted "F".

16 Q. I'm saying that in the part that you were in, you said that there

17 were solitary confinement cells.

18 A. Not in my room.

19 Q. No, not in your room but in that part of your building.

20 A. Well, in that part of the building that goes this way and then

21 that way and then to the right and then there are these stairs and then

22 underneath those stairs there were these rooms that was solitary

23 confinement or whatever, but I know that people were staying there.

24 Q. Today, in response to the Prosecutor's question, you said and you

25 showed solitary confinement cells in part of building B on the right-hand

Page 806

1 side.

2 A. Yes. Yes. That is where I was, and there is a larger number of

3 solitary confine cells there, but I don't know how many people this

4 particular one can take, but I know Asif Cajnovic [phoen], after a

5 physical mistreatment that was quite exceptional, spent five or six days

6 there. This was one of these physical mistreatments. He spent some time

7 to recuperate and then he was thrown in. And then this little Sabovac --

8 I know him. Everybody knows him. All of Foca knows him. Then he was --

9 was screaming there as if Wolves were slaughtering him. And then in that

10 solitary confinement cell, the man I mentioned a few minutes ago hanged

11 himself. I can't remember his name now. The man who worked in the shop.

12 Those are facts. Whoever got in there once knew what was there. But I

13 don't know what it looked like inside that part.

14 Q. You said in your statement, the one that I already mentioned, that

15 had you not made this mistake with the bread, you would have been in the

16 working room as well. Does that mean that that would have been a benefit

17 for you and that you had lost it because of the mistake with the bread?

18 A. Well, probably the man assigned me to work there. I probably

19 would have remained there otherwise. Probably this was taken as a mistake

20 on my part. I don't know what. I don't know. That is why I was taken to

21 solitary confinement where I was beaten up. Whether I would have remained

22 there or not, well, maybe I would have remained. I don't know. I don't

23 know what would have happened to me.

24 Q. In the KP Dom at the time while you were staying there, were there

25 any Serb persons who were already serving their time there, who had been

Page 807

1 sentenced before, earlier on?

2 A. Yes. I know two of them, but they were at the well-known Focanski

3 Brioni, where they had the farm there. Actually, I came to the camp

4 before they did. They came but they did not stay there. They were around

5 the food during the first days, that little Rade Baralic, who donated

6 blood when I did, and another young man. I never registered his name or

7 surname, nor did I have any contact with him.

8 Q. Is it correct that in your statement you said that there were such

9 persons, to the best of your knowledge, that there were 10 or 15 such

10 persons?

11 A. Well, I think there were. As a matter of fact, I don't know

12 whether I mentioned this, one of them was ill, he had tuberculosis. He

13 had a separate dish where they put his food so that others would not use

14 the same dish. He was a very old person who was in prison before.

15 Q. I have to put a question to you now which had already been put but

16 was obviously misconceived. Part of the defence of the accused was

17 quoted: that the KP Dom was divided into the civilian and military parts.

18 You said that there were no military prisoners but only civilian

19 prisoners.

20 A. Yes, yes, that was my answer. That is correct, there weren't any

21 soldiers. I didn't see any; I did not see any such person, any soldier.

22 Q. Since I already mentioned that it is obviously misconceived, that

23 is, that there was a misunderstanding of what the accused stated, the

24 accused did not state that there were soldiers who were detained, but he

25 said that the detained Muslims were within the zone of responsibility of

Page 808

1 the military.

2 A. I don't know any such persons. The persons I know -- I mean, I

3 don't know such persons.

4 Q. No. Again you did not understand what I am saying.

5 A. I did understand it.

6 Q. The prisoners were civilians?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. They were not military persons?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. However, these prisoners were under the responsibility of the

11 military, of the military command?

12 A. I don't know under whose responsibility they were. I know where

13 we stayed. I really cannot know who's up there in the command and who is

14 responsible for these men. Now, I did not appoint them, I did not belong

15 there, and I cannot say anything about this, really, as to who ordered who

16 to do what. I mean, as far as this question is concerned, I really know

17 nothing. I mean, I really cannot say anything about that.

18 Q. Tell me, do you know the name Nedzib Lojo?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And Hasan Lojo?

21 A. Yes. Hasan Lojo got out with me. He is an elderly man. He was

22 on the bus with me. Nedzib Lojo - I think we did not mention this

23 throughout this case - on the 16th of August, I don't know exactly but I

24 think on the 16th of August, he was taken out of my room. Nedzib Lojo;

25 Serif Hodzic, an elderly man; Resad Hadzimehic; and two brothers, two

Page 809












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 810

1 young men, Rustan, I think they are from a settlement near Foca. I don't

2 know where they were taken.

3 Hasan Lojo, if it is that elderly man, I think he is still alive,

4 he got out, if we are talking about the man whom I know as Hasan Lojo.

5 Q. Do you know the name Dzevad Lojo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was he at the KP Dom?

8 A. Yes, he was at the KP Dom.

9 Q. Do you know in which room he was?

10 A. Opposite -- I mean, if we were to invert the F, it was opposite.

11 He was not in number 20 with me. It was somewhere there around 20. I

12 don't know which numbers these are, 22, 20, 18, 16. I think that all of

13 them are even numbers. I can't remember now.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, would you?

15 My recollection is that the witness had said he didn't want his

16 brother named. I don't know whether that's the one that you've referred

17 to.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] His brother's name was not

19 mentioned.

20 Q. I don't know whether this is his brother's name.

21 A. His brother's name was not mentioned.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Sir, now I'm going to show you a statement of a witness who

25 testified, and you are going to give me your comment in relation to this

Page 811

1 statement.

2 "I remember the 13th of June, 1992 very well because the

3 interrogations lasted all day. Many prisoners from different rooms were

4 taken out for interrogations. From my room, three to four prisoners were

5 taken out. Among them was Zulfo Veiz, who was a policeman in Foca before

6 the arrest, who did not return. And also Mustafa Kuloglija was among the

7 prisoners who were taken out for interrogation on that day."

8 A. I don't know about Zulfo Veiz, although I know him; we were born

9 practically in the same village. Mustafa Kuloglija ended up the way I

10 said a few minutes ago. But all of this is not important now. I'm

11 stating with full responsibility that Mustafa Kuloglija, on the 25th of

12 June, 1992, ended up together with Veiz. This really has nothing to do

13 with Zulfo Veiz.

14 Q. So what I read out to you is not correct?

15 A. I don't know whether it's correct or not. I don't know what this

16 person saw. But I know that Mustafa Kuloglija, on the 25th of June, was

17 in the camp. And what happened happened and I said that quite clearly, I

18 think it's as clear as daylight; and what other people said has nothing to

19 do with me whatsoever.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. You said in your statement -- you said before the

21 break that right before your exchange, 20 persons were taken out and they

22 did not come back, and that you were taken for exchange ten minutes

23 later.

24 A. Yes. We came out right after them. No, I think we do not -- we

25 are not clear. How could we go if it was only ten minutes? Something

Page 812

1 was, I don't know, not translated properly or something is not clear,

2 because how can I know whether they came back or not? I left ten minutes

3 after them. I did not see them again. I believe somebody asked --

4 somebody asked if I saw those men again and I said I did not see them

5 again. Whether they returned, I cannot know that because I was already

6 gone from there.

7 Q. Thank you. I have only one more question for you, Witness. You

8 said in your statement, and again in your testimony today before the

9 break, that when you were leaving for exchange, Savo Todovic delivered a

10 short speech; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. Well, it was short. I cannot quote him, but what he said,

12 "Don't look through the windows because something might happen to you."

13 What was the purpose behind it all, I don't know. I wasn't interested; I

14 didn't look. All I saw was what I saw on my way: houses burnt, destroyed

15 mosques, and things. I didn't see much, but that is what I saw. But this

16 is really not important. Let me tell you, I didn't belong to any clan.

17 I ...

18 Q. And my last question: In your statement to the Prosecution, which

19 you say you gave of your own will, you said about Savo Todovic: "He took

20 decisions by himself with full responsibility." Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, I think so. At least that is my view, that is how I saw it.

22 Q. Thank you very much.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, I have only one question.

Page 813

1 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

2 Q. You have mentioned to us what happened to Mr. Kuloglija on the

3 25th of June, 1992. Was Mr. Kuloglija only taken out once, and that was

4 on the 25th, or was he taken out several times?

5 A. Several times. Before he was taken out and beaten, he had bruises

6 on his face and body. I cannot be more accurate. I cannot give you dates

7 when that happened. I mean, really. And it would be silly for me to keep

8 some statistical record. I don't know when that happened, but it happened

9 several times to this Kuloglija to be taken out for some physical --

10 physical re-education.

11 He left on the 25th. One cannot say that he did not come back on

12 the 13th of July, because he did come back, but when he left on the 25th,

13 that is when he didn't come back. Again, not at least while I was there.

14 Q. And did Mr. Kuloglija tell you what had happened to him when he

15 returned?

16 A. He did not have to say anything. Many people kept silent and said

17 nothing. One could see on them. There were visible signs on them what

18 had happened to them.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, no more questions.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I ask another

22 question? May I ask another additional question?

23 JUDGE HUNT: No. You've had your opportunity. If it's something

24 that arises out of re-examination, I'm afraid you have no further right to

25 ask any questions. If it is something that you had omitted from your

Page 814

1 cross-examination and it's something quite different to what is raised in

2 re-examination, you may have leave to ask it, and it too then will become

3 subject to re-examination. But you can't now try to go behind the

4 re-examination.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely omitted to

6 read the sentence to the end, and it has to do with what I failed to do in

7 the cross-examination and is also related to the question asked in

8 re-examination by my learned friend from the Prosecution.

9 JUDGE HUNT: That's the very sort of thing you can't do, I'm

10 afraid. You cannot now try to cure the answers that have been given in

11 re-examination.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I understand that, but

13 I also understood that you allowed me to do something that I omitted to do

14 during the cross-examination while I was cross-examining the witness, and

15 I omitted to complete the sentence because I was trying to speed up the

16 examination. That was the only reason. And in that additional

17 sentence -- well, if I'm not allowed to do that, of course I will not

18 say.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Let me see if I can clear it up. Is this the

20 statement that you read to the witness in which a different date was given

21 for when the people were taken out of the room, and you asked him, in

22 effect, "What do you say when somebody else says this was on a different

23 day?" That was the purpose of the cross-examination, was it not?

24 If I may say so, I don't really see how a witness can be asked to

25 say whether somebody else was telling the truth. Does it relate only to

Page 815

1 the date upon which this other witness says these events occurred?

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, it is not the date, the date is

3 the same, but the end of the sentence. Now, I don't know whether I can

4 utter that end of the sentence to show you what I have in mind.

5 JUDGE HUNT: We don't have juries in this jurisdiction. You tell

6 us what the rest of the sentence was and if it does turn out to be

7 something quite separate, then we'll allow you to ask it. But you read it

8 out to us now.

9 I've got what you read out before. It ended up saying, "And

10 Mustafa Kuloglija was among the prisoners who were taken out that day."

11 That's when you finished reading. You will say that wasn't the end of the

12 sentence.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I read it?

14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, please.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] "Mustafa Kuloglija was also amongst

16 the prisoners who were taken away that day for interrogation and did not

17 return."

18 JUDGE HUNT: Speaking for myself, that's what I understood you to

19 be inferring or implying from what you would read. I don't, myself, see

20 that it will take the matter any further.

21 Thank you, Witness. You may leave now, but just wait until the

22 blinds are pulled down on that side of the room so that your identity will

23 not be disclosed to the public.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the next witness is 215, and

Page 816

1 that witness has no protective measures; is that correct? Ms. Kuo, yes.

2 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. It's correct that we had not

3 previously asked for protective measures, but the witness now wishes to

4 have protective measures and ask leave to request that of this Court. The

5 witness wishes to have a pseudonym as well as the facial distortion.

6 JUDGE HUNT: What's the basis of it?

7 MS. KUO: The witness is fearful that if he -- the witness still

8 has property in Foca, and if he ever wishes to return, he may be

9 endangered.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Very well.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know. I

12 believe I can also voice the opinion of the Defence regarding the

13 application of the Prosecutor. We agreed to the protection measures.

14 However, this witness did not get this property between the Pre-Trial

15 Conference and this date. That reason existed even before that. So why

16 didn't he apply for protective measures at the same time when it was

17 requested for other witnesses? I do not see that as a reason. Perhaps

18 there is some other reason behind that.

19 JUDGE HUNT: I'll tell you what the reason behind it is,

20 Mr. Bakrac. It's because having spoken to the Prosecution people here, he

21 has found out that this is available and perhaps even was encouraged to

22 ask for it, which I'm not really certain is proper, but, nevertheless, it

23 seems to be a pattern in these cases. When people arrive here, they

24 suddenly realise -- they hear about television records and television

25 telecasts throughout the whole of Yugoslavia, and it almost inevitably

Page 817

1 happens when they get here they ask for them.

2 Have you got any doubt that he has this fear about what might

3 happen to him when he returns to the former Yugoslavia?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I really saw no reason for concern,

5 and all the witnesses that will be coming can be protected or, rather,

6 applications can be made for their protection on those same grounds.

7 JUDGE HUNT: They almost inevitably are. I'm not altogether

8 certain myself how prevalent it is, but it has been the practice of the

9 Tribunal to grant protective measures in those circumstances to both

10 Prosecution and Defence witnesses. And I can assure you that at the

11 moment, I seem to be up to my ears in protective measures applications in

12 another case, and I have read a whole series of reports from the UNHCR and

13 others which detail in quite some measure of detail the problems that

14 people have when they return to one or other of the entities inside

15 Bosnia. It's not limited, I hasten to add, to any one particular entity.

16 And it's not unreasonable to see that there is some concern that they have

17 that they may be mistreated.

18 Now, if you say there is some prejudice to you, I would be very

19 happy to hear it. I'm not sure that you would be able to show any. The

20 only prejudice I see is the fear that these proceedings seem to be

21 conducted more behind closed doors than they should be.

22 Here they will not be conducted behind closed doors. All that

23 will happen is that the screen will remained there, the blinds behind the

24 screen will remain down, about one-third of the public gallery will not be

25 able to see anything inside the courtroom, but, nevertheless, on the

Page 818

1 screen and through the headphones they'll see and everything that goes on

2 except that they will not see the face of the witness giving evidence.

3 Now, can you tell me what prejudice your client will suffer if we

4 grant these protective measures albeit out of time?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my objection was mostly

6 on grounds of principle rather than the specific reason.

7 There is this general reason. We think that the witnesses might

8 be much more sincere if their identity were known to everybody. Moreover,

9 the Defence would be able to collect supplementary evidence in view of the

10 identity of those persons, because we also are not at liberty to disclose

11 the names of those persons.

12 The Defence is in a rather unfavourable position, because perhaps

13 somebody, if he knew that that person was testifying or would be

14 testifying, could give us something that would help us to show the -- to

15 undermine the credibility of that particular witness.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I understand that this witness already had a

17 pseudonym. What is being asked for is the distortion of his face at the

18 time he gives evidence. He would have been referred to throughout as

19 Witness 215, and were you not entitled, under the ordinary protective

20 measures provisions, to disclose that to anybody except in the necessary

21 pursuit of your client's rights in preparing for the trial.

22 So the only thing that is going to be different is that his face

23 will not be seen on television in an undistorted way and, as I say,

24 one-third of the public area will be hidden, out of view.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the area that I come

Page 819

1 from, people are recognised, identified, by their faces rather than by

2 their names. But I do not want to waste any more time of the Court. I

3 explained which are the reasons for which we have this objection. I

4 already explained that this is prejudicial to the Defence. I do not have

5 to repeat that. And of course, the Court will decide.

6 JUDGE HUNT: There is nothing to stop you from cross-examining the

7 witness as to the reasons why he has sought the distortion of his face,

8 and you are entitled to address the Tribunal subsequently on the basis

9 that we should not accept his evidence because he was not brave enough to

10 face up to publicity. That's a matter which is always relevant on the

11 question of protective measures.

12 Anything else you've put forward, I'm afraid the question of

13 principle that has arisen is only that the application was made out of

14 time, and that's not a very -- that's not one which is favourably received

15 by this Tribunal.

16 Is there anything more you want to add?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. You may have those protective measures.

19 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour. And as another preliminary

20 matter, you should have before you a copy of a letter the Prosecution has

21 given to the Defence counsel.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Bring the witness in while we're waiting, thank you.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MS. KUO: The purpose of this letter is twofold. One is that one

25 of the potential exhibits in this case in the binders was given the number

Page 820

1 332. It is, in fact, a set of documents. They're eight separate

2 handwritten documents with the translations, and during the course of the

3 proceedings either the Prosecution or the Defence may refer to these

4 documents, and so what we've done is subnumbered them.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, would you. Would you sit down,

6 please, sir, for a moment whilst we're getting this procedural matter

7 sorted out. You can open the rest of the blinds while we're waiting.

8 I'm sorry, Ms. Kuo. We have these eight subtitles.

9 MS. KUO: Yes. So we've taken the liberty of subnumbering them

10 for the ease of reference during the course of the proceedings and, in

11 addition, the second purpose is that we discovered a translation error in

12 what has been numbered as 332/5A, the list of persons who disappeared, and

13 we have attached the corrected version.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Now, sir, would you please

15 stand up and take the solemn declaration.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on. We cannot hear the

17 witness.

18 JUDGE HUNT: One of the microphones is apparently not turned on.

19 The translators couldn't hear. Sit down, please, sir. I can assure the

20 interpreters that the solemn declaration was made. It can go into the

21 transcript as such.

22 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

23 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 821


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I would like to have

7 this witness shown a piece of paper which the Prosecution wishes to enter

8 in evidence as the next numbered exhibit. I'm afraid I've lost track of

9 the numbers. Perhaps the registrar can --

10 JUDGE HUNT: It will be 399.

11 MS. KUO: And we ask that this be under seal.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac? Any objection to the

13 tendering of this document?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The exhibit will --

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The exhibit will be P399, and it will be

18 under seal.

19 MS. KUO:

20 Q. Witness, on this piece of paper do you see your name?

21 A. I do.

22 Q. Directly above your name are the words "Witness" and then the

23 letters "FWS" followed by the number "215"; do you see that?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. You should know, Witness, that because of the protective measures

Page 822

1 you've requested and the Court has granted, you will be referred to during

2 the course of the trial as Witness FWS-215; do you understand that?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Under your name, is that your birth date?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. I should also let you know that on this piece of paper are also

7 two other names, and following those names are also numbers. If you wish

8 to mention those names at all in your testimony, please use the numbers

9 instead of the names; do you understand that?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Sir, what ethnicity are you?

12 A. Muslim.

13 Q. Where were you born?

14 A. Foca.

15 Q. In 1992, in April, where did you live?

16 A. In Foca.

17 Q. Which part of Foca specifically did you live in?

18 A. The centre of the town.

19 Q. Was that a predominantly Serb or Muslim area, or was it mixed?

20 A. According to the latest census, the centre of the town was

21 predominantly Serb.

22 Q. Are you married, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you have children?

25 A. Yes.

Page 823

1 Q. How many children do you have?

2 A. Two.

3 Q. In April 1992, how old were they?

4 A. My son was born in 1971, and my daughter, in 1973.

5 Q. Before the war started in Foca, what was your profession?

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted).

8 Q. On what day did the war in Foca start?

9 A. On the 8th of April, 1992.

10 Q. Before the 8th of April, 1992, had people in your neighbourhood

11 begun to take protective measures in anticipation of some sort of

12 conflict?

13 A. There were some signs, some indications, and as a citizen, I heard

14 that there were some guards on duty in some parts of the town.

15 Q. Was there a joint guard organised in your building before the 8th

16 of April?

17 A. Prior to the 8th of April, there were no organised guards.

18 Q. At some point were organised guards formed, after the 8th of

19 April?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. On what date; do you remember that?

22 A. Well, it was, at any rate, before the 8th, when the fighting

23 began, so between the 8th and the 14th of April.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you about the day that the war in Foca started.

25 Did you go to work that day, the 8th of April?

Page 824

1 A. Yes, I was on my way to work, as usual.

2 Q. (redacted)

3 A. (redacted)

4 (redacted).

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 Q. (redacted)

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. (redacted)

11 A. (redacted)

12 Q. On the 8th of April, 1992, how many people came to work?

13 A. Only I and Okica Simovic came.

14 Q. What was the ethnicity of your colleague who came to work that

15 day?

16 A. Serb ethnicity.

17 Q. Do you know why the other people weren't there?

18 A. No, not at that time.

19 Q. Did anything unusual happen at some point that morning?

20 A. Well, I can say that as I was going to work I noticed something

21 curious in front of the building of the court, which is right next to my

22 building. And then as I walked next to the municipal hall and the police

23 building - this is the morning rush-hour - so I saw there were some

24 people. I saw some commotion, some melee of sorts.

25 Q. (redacted), did something happen?

Page 825

1 A. At that moment, nothing, nothing yet. So I entered the building,

2 as always, because I had the key to the front door. We unlocked the door,

3 entered the building, and I didn't observe anything out of the ordinary.

4 Q. At some time that morning did shooting start?

5 A. Yes. It happened at sometime around half past nine in the

6 morning. A powerful infantry -- I'm not a military man, but I think it

7 was infantry fire that was opened all over the town.

8 Q. Were you able to see what was happening?

9 A. No, unfortunately, because in that part of the town, in front of

10 the square, one could only see people fleeing in panic.

11 Q. What did you do?

12 A. With this colleague of mine with whom I had come to work, we

13 decided it wasn't really wise to be there all on our own, so we decided to

14 go back home.

15 Q. How did you go home?

16 A. So near the fire brigade centre is the post office, and behind

17 that, our residential buildings. So we entered one of those buildings,

18 the entrance, and we found there 15 or 20 frightened people, and that

19 included some uniformed policemen, who, I suppose, at that time were on

20 duty.

21 Q. What were they doing there, the policemen?

22 A. Well, they simply thought that they found a shelter on the

23 staircase, in that entrance.

24 Q. Did you stay in that building with those people?

25 A. For a very short while because we wanted to get back home as

Page 826

1 quickly as possible. So we decided to try to run across and through some

2 side streets so as to get back home as quickly as possible.

3 Q. Were you able to do that?

4 A. We did that, perhaps, after about 10 or 15 minutes, because it is

5 not that far away. But we were indeed frightened because there was

6 shooting.

7 Q. When you got home, was your family at home?

8 A. At that moment only my children were there. My wife had also gone

9 to work together with me.

10 Q. Did your wife return at some point?

11 A. She returned about an hour after I did because she worked a bit

12 further away, a bit further away from the place where I worked.

13 Q. Did the shooting continue?

14 A. The shooting was still on. And she arrived home in a car; a

15 colleague of hers from work had driven her home.

16 Q. Where did you and your family stay from that point on?

17 A. We mostly stayed at home in the building where we lived.

18 Q. Did you hide in a specific part of the building?

19 A. Together we tried to organise a hideaway in the basements of the

20 apartment buildings where we lived.

21 Q. Were there times when you went upstairs to your apartment

22 building -- to your apartment? I'm sorry.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the residents of your

25 building?

Page 827

1 A. At that moment when I returned, my family and I were the only

2 Muslims there. All the rest of our neighbours were Serbs.

3 Q. On those occasions when you went upstairs to your apartment, were

4 you able to see outside what was happening?

5 A. Of course. We used every convenient moment to peek behind the

6 curtains and to see whether there was anyone there and what was going on.

7 Q. Can you describe for us what you saw from your windows?

8 A. Well, nothing but people running across the street. People were

9 running in fright from one place to another. These were probably friends,

10 relatives, who tried to stay together as close as possible, believing that

11 they would be safer that way.

12 Q. Did you see houses burning at that time?

13 A. Well, certainly in that period, from all sides one could see that

14 houses were burning.

15 Q. Could you at that time recognise any of the owners of those houses

16 who owned the houses that were burning?

17 A. I must admit that I personally did not know all the people from

18 that part of town. No, no, I could not mention the names of the owners.

19 Q. How many days did you and your family hide like this?

20 A. Well, actually, this lasted all the way up to the 23rd of April,

21 1992, when I was taken away from home.

22 Q. Prior to the 23rd of April, was there a time when the fighting

23 within Foca ceased, stopped?

24 A. The fighting stopped intermittently. And whenever there wasn't

25 any strong shooting or strong explosions, we tried to get out of

Page 828

1 buildings, in front of buildings, so that we could simply comment upon

2 these events.

3 Q. Was there a time when a longer ceasefire was called?

4 A. There were periods when this lasted shorter and when it lasted

5 longer. Actually, one could say that during the day the ceasefire would

6 go on for longer, and during the night the shooting was more intensive.

7 Q. Did something happen on the 14th or 15th of April, 1992 in terms

8 of the fighting?

9 A. On the 14th and 15th, as far as the fighting is concerned, I have

10 nothing special to say.

11 Q. Do you know when Foca fell?

12 A. Well, I think it was that period precisely. Everything happened

13 very fast, seven or eight days, from the 8th to the 14th or 15th of

14 April.

15 Q. And on the 14th or 15th of April, who took over Foca town? What

16 entity?

17 A. I'm not sure. I cannot state with certainty whether all of Foca

18 was taken or occupied at that time, but certain parts certainly were.

19 Q. Were there public announcements made to the people in terms of

20 what they should do at that time?

21 A. Well, when there was electricity, we could listen to Radio Foca,

22 and the calls were made to citizens to go out to carry out their work

23 duties.

24 Q. Do you know who controlled Radio Foca at that point?

25 A. Like some other citizens, I took advantage of the moments when the

Page 829

1 shooting would abate to go out to town for awhile. Perhaps this was too

2 brave and naive. I actually went to the centre of town, to the army

3 building where Radio Foca was.

4 Q. What did you learn when you went there? Who was in charge or had

5 taken over Radio Foca?

6 A. At that moment there were quite a few persons in uniform in front

7 of this particular building. From contacts with some other citizens, we

8 found out that these were some persons who came from elsewhere. Actually,

9 they were Serbs.

10 Q. Did you hear comments on Radio Foca with regard to the

11 relationship between Muslims and Serbs?

12 A. At one moment as I listened to Radio Foca, I could hear the then

13 Minister in the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Velibor Ostojic, who

14 spoke for about 50 minutes. This was a speech based on propaganda,

15 stating that there could be no life for the Serbs and Muslims together,

16 that it was impossible to live together anymore, that there would be no

17 more friendships, no more kum relations, no more good neighbourly

18 relations. This remained imprinted in my mind, and that speech was quite

19 alarming - very alarming - for any honest person.

20 Q. What other public institutions in Foca became Serb controlled at

21 that point?

22 A. I could say that this was the building of the court of the

23 Municipal of the Assembly, the building of the Secretariat for Internal

24 Affairs and the building of the fire brigade (redacted), of course,

25 including the radio station or the building of the former Yugoslav

Page 830

1 People's Army.

2 Q. Now, you mention that had there were calls to people to go back to

3 work. Did you try to go back to work?

4 A. I tried on two or three occasions to go to my building because I

5 felt that the institution where I worked was the humane one. Since there

6 were lots of fires in town, I felt that I should be there at work.

7 Q. What happened the first time you tried to go to work?

8 A. The first time, I found some people there. The building had

9 already been broken into from the entrance side. The glass had been

10 broken and the door was broken down.

11 One of the previous employees was there, together with two or

12 three other men. Together we went to the upper floor of this building,

13 and we noted that the part of the building that had been rented out to a

14 certain person had been partly looted and had been broken into.

15 Q. Who was the person that that place was rented out to?

16 A. Nebojsa Krnojelac was the name of this person.

17 Q. And did you observe any other damage?

18 A. Certainly. I went to my office and I immediately noticed that the

19 entrance door had been broken into by shots fired from firearms and the

20 lock was blown out. Then also there were many holes in the ceiling. The

21 ceiling was riddled. Also where Tito's picture was, there had been a lot

22 of shooting there, and a lot of the things were just thrown about the

23 room.

24 Q. Did you stay at work that day?

25 A. No. I just looked at my desk. It was locked properly. There was

Page 831

1 nothing missing from the desk at that point in time.

2 Having realised what the situation was, I withdrew or, rather, I

3 went home.

4 Q. Did you go back a second time to your office?

5 A. Yes. The second time I tried, after a day or two, to go there. A

6 man stopped me at the very entrance. He was a Serb, an ethnic Serb. He

7 told me that I was not allowed to go there.

8 Q. Did you explain who you were and what your purpose was in going

9 there?

10 A. That man knew me well. I tried to talk to him as we walked, and

11 we walked all the way up to the building, and I said to him, "Well, you

12 know that I worked here for many years, and I want to get in," and he

13 said, "No."

14 Q. Was that man dressed in civilian clothes or a uniform?

15 A. Civilian clothes. But the other person who was inside -- there

16 were two or three men who I knew very well. One of them was certainly

17 wearing a military uniform. In front of the building, there was also a

18 military vehicle, a so-called Pitzgaur.

19 Q. Were you given any explanation for why you could not go inside?

20 A. One of them was called Milic Milos, and I tried to ask whether I

21 could do anything, whether I could help. He drove me away very rudely.

22 He said, "Get lost. Otherwise, I'm going to call the military police to

23 take you to prison."

24 Q. And the individuals who were dressed in uniform, were they Serb or

25 Muslim?

Page 832

1 A. At that moment, all who were there were Serbs.

2 Q. Did your wife try to report to work?

3 A. Yes. She tried to report to work. She was persistent. She went

4 back, she phoned, but she was always told to wait some more.

5 Q. Did you or your wife ever go back to work there?

6 A. My wife did not indeed, but I was naive, and I tried to go there

7 one more time. I passed by the building, and I went up towards the old

8 part of town.

9 Q. What happened that third time?

10 A. In the part called Sahat Kula, a man ran up to me. He was wearing

11 a military uniform and he had a rifle. He stopped me and he told me that

12 I had to go back with him. I returned to the square, frightened, where

13 this superior of his was waiting for me. He wore a camouflage uniform.

14 He had a beard, and also a machine-gun at his chest. I'm sorry. I have

15 to say that my wife was with me at that time.

16 Q. What did that man say to you?

17 A. That man said, as soon as he saw me, "I have to arrest you."

18 Q. Did he arrest you at that point?

19 A. I asked him, "May I know why?" He paused for a few moments and

20 looked at me and said, "All right. Go home now."

21 Q. Do you recall what date that was?

22 A. The 22nd of April, 1992.

23 Q. And were you actually arrested then at a later point?

24 A. No. I went home, and I spent that day quite restless and

25 frightened. But then on the next day, the 23rd of April, around 9.30 in

Page 833

1 the morning, in the presence of my son and daughter and in the absence of

2 my wife, who had gone to town to get some supplies, my arrest took place.

3 Q. I will ask you some questions about your arrest in a moment, but

4 before that, when you were able to walk around Foca, were you able to see

5 the damage that had happened and was happening?

6 A. I managed to pass through the old part of town only once when

7 everything had already been burned down and destroyed. I passed in fear,

8 and unconsciously I went down to the marketplace and the army building and

9 then all the way to my home. All of it was really awful.

10 Q. When you say the "old part of town," what is that part called?

11 A. Stara Carsija.

12 Q. Was that a predominantly Serb or Muslim part of town?

13 A. I think that the buildings where craftsmen worked were mostly

14 Muslims, although there were some shops where Serbs worked as well.

15 Q. Did you see people setting fire to houses?

16 A. In the period when there is shooting, one could see that the

17 houses of certain people were being targeted. In Prijeka Carsija, in

18 Stara Carsija, a person who was craftsman, for a long time we saw that his

19 house was being fired at with inflammable bullets and indeed it did catch

20 fire. Since all of these buildings were leaning one against the other,

21 the other houses were set fire to as well.

22 Q. And the craftsman whose house you've described as being targeted,

23 was he a Serb or a Muslim?

24 A. Muslim.

25 Q. Did you see any attempts to put out fires?

Page 834

1 A. No. At that moment, since I, (redacted), did not

2 have access to these buildings to put the fires out, then indeed nobody

3 else could have done it.

4 Q. Did you see houses in Sukovac burning?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you see how that came about?

7 A. One could see that there were some people who were walking around

8 who would approach certain houses and then a fire would appear, and then,

9 of course, the entire building would start burning.

10 Q. When you say "certain people," were they wearing anything

11 distinctive or did you recognise any of them?

12 A. No. It was too far away to be able to recognise a person. But

13 they were carrying something on their backs. Probably this was some kind

14 of inflammable material in order to be able to set the building on fire.

15 Q. And the certain buildings that were set on fire in this way, could

16 you tell whether the residents were Muslim or Serb?

17 A. Well, in apartment buildings the population was mixed. There were

18 Serbs and Muslims in others.

19 Q. Is Sukovac a mixed neighbourhood or is it predominantly Muslim or

20 Serb?

21 A. I think that one could say that it was a Muslim neighbourhood to a

22 large extent.

23 Q. During this same time, could you see people being arrested, your

24 neighbours, for instance?

25 A. In the part of the neighbourhood of Ribarsko one could notice

Page 835












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 836

1 that. This was very close to the building where I lived. One could

2 notice persons in uniform moving about, especially in the part where the

3 Ribarsko building is, where there was a large concentration of people who

4 were gathering there.

5 Q. Did you see how people were being arrested?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was arresting?

8 A. Persons in uniform, in camouflage uniforms, and there were also

9 civilians as well.

10 Q. Who was being arrested?

11 A. Are you asking about the ethnicity of these persons?

12 Q. Yes. Let's start there. What ethnicity were the people who were

13 being arrested?

14 A. Well, they were primarily Muslims.

15 Q. The people being arrested, were they civilians or were they

16 wearing military clothes?

17 A. Primarily civilians.

18 Q. When you say "primarily," do you also mean that there were people

19 in uniform being arrested or do you mean that everybody you saw being

20 arrested was in civilian clothes?

21 A. It would be better to put it this way: They were all civilians.

22 Q. Were they men or women who were being arrested?

23 A. Men only.

24 Q. Could you tell their age -- the range of their ages, who appeared

25 to be the youngest person and who appeared to be the oldest?

Page 837

1 A. There were both.

2 MS. KUO: I see that we're coming to the end of the day, and I

3 think that we can continue with this witness tomorrow.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Can you tell us about these papers that have

5 been handed in relating to Witness 66, the "east side stories"? I think

6 somebody has described it as a diary. Is this going to go into evidence,

7 or is it just like one of the statements that we refer to only if it is

8 referred to in the evidence?

9 MS. KUO: Your Honour, Witness 66 is being handled by my

10 colleague, Bill Smith, and I believe that these are documents that were

11 prepared by the witness himself. I'm not entirely sure.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Because for my own part, I never read any of the OTP

13 statements because they're not in evidence; and if they do go into

14 evidence, then I will read them. Now, I don't want to read this in

15 advance if it's not going to go into evidence. It's not like the

16 transcript, for example, from the Kunarac trial.

17 MS. KUO: That's correct, Your Honour. I think it's meant more as

18 analogous to the statements that we've been giving for people to prepare

19 if they wish.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's very helpful. Thank you very much.

21 MS. KUO: Thank you.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day of

25 November, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.