Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 948

 1                          Thursday, 9 November 2000

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  Call the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  Case number IT-97-25-T, the

 8    Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

 9            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Smith.

10            MR. SMITH:  Good morning, Your Honour.

11                          WITNESS:  WITNESS FWS-198 [Resumed]

12                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                          Examined by Mr. Smith:  [Continued]

14       Q.   Good morning, Witness.  How do you feel today?

15       A.   Fine.

16       Q.   If I can just provide you a reminder:  If you are going to use the

17    names of the people on the piece of paper in front of you, could you

18    please use their numbers throughout your testimony.

19       A.   All right.

20       Q.   Also, if you could answer the questions slowly.  When we talk

21    about individuals, think clearly about the individual and pronounce the

22    name as correctly as you can.

23       A.   All right.

24       Q.   Witness, we finished yesterday when you arrived at the KP Dom.

25    You stated that a Risto Vucetic took you to the KP Dom and handed you over

Page 949

 1    to a person by the name of Cancar.  You stated that this person Cancar

 2    frisked you --

 3       A.   Cancar.

 4       Q.   You stated that this person frisked you and then placed you into

 5    the compound.

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Did you know this person Cancar from before you arrived at KP

 8    Dom?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   What job did he do?

11       A.   Before the war, he was an official in charge of the convicts who

12    were serving time at the penitentiary, the KP Dom.

13       Q.   What was Cancar wearing when you arrived; do you remember?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Did Cancar question you at all?

16       A.   No.

17       Q.   How long were you with Cancar before you were placed into the

18    compound?

19       A.   He searched me; he asked me what my name and surname was.  So it

20    was a minute, a minute and a half.

21       Q.   Did he tell you why you were being placed into the KP Dom?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Where were you taken after Cancar frisked you and asked you your

24    brief details?

25       A.   A solitary confinement cell.

Page 950

 1       Q.   How big was this cell?

 2       A.   Two metres by 2.5 metres, something like that.

 3       Q.   Were there any beds in the cell?

 4       A.   Yes; one.

 5       Q.   Was there anyone else in the cell when you first arrived at KP

 6    Dom?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   How many other people were in the cell?

 9       A.   There were about 18 of us in the cell.

10       Q.   Did you know who they were?

11       A.   I knew some; I didn't know others.

12       Q.   Of the people you knew, what ethnicity were they?

13       A.   All of them, Muslims.

14       Q.   How long did you stay in the solitary confinement cell?

15       A.   Two or three days.

16       Q.   Did those other men stay in that cell with you for that period of

17    time, or did they leave before?

18       A.   About 10 or 15 of them who were there from Curkusa.  And Keletis

19    [phoen] nicknamed Kele, came after dinner and took them to the room.  I

20    remained with a man from Gorazde who had been wounded.  I don't know

21    whether he was wounded or not.  He was all covered with blood.  He didn't

22    talk about it; I didn't ask.

23       Q.   So on your first night, how many people were in the solitary

24    confinement cell?  How many people slept there?

25       A.   I and this man from Gorazde; two.

Page 951

 1       Q.   Who guarded the cell?  Did anyone guard it?

 2       A.   Yes.  There was an official, Risto Ivanovic.  That is where the

 3    official's room was, by the entrance into the building.

 4       Q.   Which building within the KP Dom was this?  What was its name?

 5       A.   Right by building 16, that's where the solitary confinement cells

 6    were.  When you enter the building, that's where this is, as well as the

 7    place where the guard is.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  I think the witness means Room 16.  There has been no

 9    dispute as to where the solitary confinement cells were.

10            MR. SMITH:  I'll move on from there, Your Honour.

11       Q.   Were you sick whilst you were in the cell, the solitary

12    confinement cell?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And what were you sick of?

15       A.   Because I was brought in.  I don't know why I was brought in.  At

16    that moment, they let us go to have dinner.  I could not have dinner

17    because I started to vomit.  I was sitting on the stairs by the kitchen.

18            Risto Ivanovic walked up to me.  I knew him from before.  He was

19    one of the officials there.  He asked me what was going on with me and I

20    said that I didn't know.  He gave me a pill from his pocket.  I could not

21    even have any dinner or anything.  I took that pill.  I went back to the

22    solitary confinement cell, actually he took me back to the solitary

23    confinement cell.  He locked me up as well as this man from Gorazde.

24            I lay on that one bed.  He lay down on the floor, on the tiles,

25    and I don't know what happened after that.  I just woke up in the

Page 952

 1    morning.  In the morning, I was a bit better, but --

 2       Q.   And during this time that you were in the solitary confinement

 3    cell, were you told whilst -- were you told why you were detained at KP

 4    Dom?

 5       A.   They only told us that we were supposed to give statements and

 6    that they would let us go then.

 7       Q.   And from the solitary confinement cell, you were taken to Room 16;

 8    is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes.  Yes.

10       Q.   Were there other people in Room 16 when you arrived?

11       A.   Yes.  Yes.  About 50 men.

12       Q.   Did you know these men or some of them?

13       A.   Some I did know, others I didn't.  I knew 78 and 77.

14       Q.   And of the men that you knew in this room, or of the people that

15    you knew in this room, what ethnicity were they?

16       A.   Muslims.

17       Q.   How long did you stay in Room 16?

18       A.   I stayed there for about six months, until I first got out to cut

19    up wood and to pile up firewood.

20       Q.   You said when you arrived in Room 16, there was about 50 men; did

21    that number increase or decrease over the six-month period?

22       A.   110, 120, it depended.  Some slept in the hall, the room where we

23    stayed, on tables that would be put together.  Some had mattresses, others

24    did not.  We made mattresses from pillows, cushions that were left behind

25    from the prisoners who had sat on these cushions before.

Page 953












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 954

 1       Q.   So everyone didn't have their own bed; is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  No, not everyone had their own bed, of course.

 3       Q.   Can you describe a typical day in Room 16?  Were you allowed out

 4    of the room?  For how long?  Where did you go for meals?  Just a typical

 5    day while you were in Room 16 for those six months.

 6       A.   In Room 16, nobody could walk.  They could only stay in this Room

 7    16.  When it was time for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, it lasted only five

 8    or ten minutes, the amount of time you needed to get out, go and take this

 9    meal, and come back.  It took about ten minutes.

10       Q.   Apart from the times that you went for your meals, were you

11    allowed out of Room 16?

12       A.   Only when you went out for meals.  You could only go out then or,

13    if they came looking for you so that you'd come out to give a statement,

14    then you could go to the administration.

15       Q.   What stopped you from being able to leave Room 16?  Was it a guard

16    or was the door locked or was it both or something else?

17       A.   The door was locked.  Whoever walked out and then came back in,

18    the door would automatically be locked.  One of the officials had his

19    office there from before and then whenever anyone went back in, he'd lock

20    the door.

21       Q.   How did you keep clean?  How did you bathe?  Where did you wash?

22    How often did you wash?

23       A.   Well, we had toilets that were there from before, faucets where

24    convicts used to wash and shave before that.  We heated water in plastic

25    bottles.  We would leave them on the window sill so that the sun could

Page 955

 1    warm it up.

 2       Q.   Were there showers or baths in the rooms?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   And how often did you eat and what did you get for your meals?

 5       A.   We ate three times a day.  It depends, soup, sometimes there was a

 6    small can of liver paste for two or three men, and then a loaf of bread

 7    would be cut up into ten slices.  What you got for breakfast, lunch, and

 8    dinner was not enough for a person to have a proper breakfast.  However,

 9    fortunately, we still had some strength left in our bodies, and we were

10    drained until the very last day of our stay.

11            The more time went by, we had less strength and we had less

12    concentration.  You'd sit down, you'd get up, and if you'd get up very

13    abruptly, you'd fall.  If you were sitting calmly and then if you'd get up

14    slowly, then you would not faint at least.

15       Q.   How much did you weigh when you arrived at KP Dom?

16       A.   79 or 90 kilos, something like that.

17       Q.   In your answer you said 79 or 90 kilos.  Is that a mistake?  Is it

18    79 or 80 kilos?

19       A.   Yes, 79 to 80.  I'm sorry.

20       Q.   And what was the lowest weight that you got to whilst you were at

21    KP Dom?

22            THE INTERPRETER:  Witness, please repeat the number.

23       A.   If I went to bathe, I didn't dare use soap to scrub myself because

24    I thought my bones would fall apart.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Smith, the interpreters have said they didn't get

Page 956

 1    the weight that he had dropped to.  If you could ask him to repeat that,

 2    please.

 3            MR. SMITH:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4       Q.   Would you repeat the --

 5       A.   48 to 50 kilograms, with my clothes on.

 6       Q.   And when did you drop to your lowest weight?  About how many

 7    months after you arrived at KP Dom?

 8       A.   After six months.

 9       Q.   How long did you stay at this weight?  Was there a time when your

10    weight increased?

11       A.   Yes, it increased.  Of course it increased.  After six months, I

12    started going out and working.

13       Q.   And how did your weight increase as a result of the fact that you

14    were working?

15       A.   The morning, at 7.00 in the morning, when you would go out to

16    work, then you would have a snack around 10.00, and then you would have a

17    double lunch, and you'd also have dinner.  So that is how we managed to

18    increase our weight when we worked.  If you worked, you got it, and if you

19    didn't, you didn't.

20       Q.   After this six-month period, what other rooms did you stay in

21    whilst you were at KP Dom?

22       A.   I started working when I was staying in Room 16, but then I was

23    transferred to Room 20 when I started working.

24       Q.   Did you stay in any other rooms at KP Dom whilst you were there?

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.  I was also in 18, and in 14, and in 13.  At that time,

Page 957

 1    in 1994, I was in 14 and in 13.  I went for my exchange from number 13.

 2       Q.   And when were you released from KP Dom?

 3       A.   On the 6th of October, 1994.

 4       Q.   Were you charged with any offence whilst you were at KP Dom or

 5    were you convicted of any offence whilst you were at KP Dom?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Was your detention ever reviewed by prison authorities or by a

 8    court whilst you were at KP Dom?  Was your case of detention ever reviewed

 9    legally, as far as you are aware?

10       A.   No.  I only went to Zoran Vladicic to make a statement.  That's

11    all.  And while I was at Zoran Vladicic's, he had a list in front of him,

12    but I did not see that list.  He asked me, because we were on good terms

13    from before, we knew each other, and he asked me whether I had weapons and

14    I said I did not.  And then he said to me, "We can check that."

15            From his drawer, he took out a piece of paper.  I did not look at

16    this paper, because he was on this side and I was on this other side.  And

17    he looked at it, and he looked at it and he said, "All right, you're not

18    on the list.  Nothing doing.  Okay."  So I didn't even look at, read what

19    he had.  I signed this little piece of paper and he said that I could go

20    back to my room.

21       Q.   At any time whilst you were at KP Dom, were you advised that you

22    had a right to review legality of your detention?

23       A.   No.

24       Q.   Were there any Serb detainees in the prison?

25       A.   Yes.  Those who were convicted before the war, they stayed there.

Page 958

 1    They started coming in only in 1994, real convicts who had done something

 2    bad at the front line, who had stolen things from someone, who had hurt

 3    someone or whatever; then they were convicted and then they were brought

 4    in there.

 5       Q.   When was the most number of Serb detainees at the KP Dom?  About

 6    what period of time?

 7       A.   1994.

 8       Q.   About how many Serb detainees were there at that time?

 9       A.   When we left in 1994, on the 5th of October, there were about 100

10    of them detained there.

11       Q.   At the beginning, in April 1992, April/May 1992, were there any

12    Serb detainees there then?

13       A.   There weren't any detainees, there were only some convicts who had

14    been convicted before that and then they just stayed behind.  There were

15    four or five of them, whatever.  They were also there at the prison farm,

16    four or five of them.  I don't know exactly.

17       Q.   You worked at the KP Dom, you stated earlier in your testimony.

18       A.   I didn't understand your question.

19       Q.   You said earlier in your testimony that you worked, and when you

20    worked you received extra food.  When did you start to work at the KP Dom?

21       A.   For about six months.

22       Q.   If I understood your answer correctly, you started to work after

23    your first six months; is that right?

24       A.   Yes, after six months.

25       Q.   How long did you work for at the KP Dom?  When did you last work

Page 959

 1    before you were released?

 2       A.   The last time, the day I came back from the mine at 9.00 in the

 3    morning, that same day I worked in the mine, when I got onto the bus and

 4    went out to be exchanged.

 5       Q.   I'd now like to talk to you about some of the guards at the KP

 6    Dom.

 7            When you moved to Room 16, who were the guards at the KP Dom?

 8    Were they people that you knew?  Did they appear to be local, from Foca,

 9    or did they appear to be people from outside of Foca?

10       A.   All of them were from Foca.  All these officials were from Foca,

11    and they worked as officials at the KP Dom in Foca before the war.

12       Q.   How did you know that?  Did they tell you or did you learn that

13    from other prisoners or other guards that they worked before the war, or

14    did you know them personally as being workers at the KP Dom prior to

15    arriving?

16       A.   I knew everyone, the Serbs and Croats and Muslims, all of them who

17    worked at the KP Dom, because I would pass by the KP Dom.  I would stop by

18    the restaurant for a cup of coffee; sometimes I'd come for dinner with my

19    wife and children.  Every one of them knew me too.  Since I worked

20    (redacted) for 17 years, everybody knew me and I knew everyone.  But then,

21    no one knew you; practically no one wanted to talk to you.  Only Risto

22    Ivanovic.

23       Q.   During this period whilst you were in Room 16, the first six

24    months, did the guards appear to stay there day and night, or did the

25    guards work on a shift basis?

Page 960












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 961

 1       A.   In shifts.  But there were guards all over.

 2       Q.   Did you know about how many guards worked a particular shift, say

 3    the day shift, over that period?

 4       A.   In the compound, about two, three, or four; and outside, I don't

 5    know.  But within the compound, I know.

 6       Q.   You mentioned some guards that worked outside the compound.  Who

 7    were they?

 8       A.   Outside the compound, I don't know who was outside the compound.

 9       Q.   What did the guards wear?

10       A.   Well, they carried automatic rifles, guns, pistols; some also

11    carried knives.  Some played with their knives, throwing them at trees as

12    if they were a dart board.

13       Q.   Did they wear uniforms, these guards?

14       A.   Yes, yes, some wore blue uniforms; some wore camouflage uniforms.

15    It depended.  At this later stage, they all wore the same kind of

16    uniform.

17       Q.   Did you know who the guards' supervisor was?

18       A.   We knew.  Mitar Rasevic.  I knew him for 15 or 20 years.  Before

19    that, he lived in Samborska Street.  He was the commander of the guards.

20    I knew his wife, his mother, his children, everyone, (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22       Q.   What would he wear?  What uniform would he wear, if one at all?

23       A.   Sometimes civilian clothes; sometimes a uniform.  We did not

24    really look very carefully to see what people were wearing.

25       Q.   Where did he work before the war?

Page 962

 1       A.   Commander of the guards at the KP Dom.

 2       Q.   How often would you see Mr. Rasevic?

 3       A.   Well, almost every day I would see him.  Well, not every day.  But

 4    he would come to our rooms; he would visit us.  He told us not to try to

 5    escape because that would be fatal for us.

 6       Q.   What led you to believe that he was the supervisor of the guards?

 7    Was it from what you were told or from what you saw, or both?

 8       A.   On the basis of us knowing for certain that he was the guards'

 9    commander.

10       Q.   How did you know that he was the guards' commander?

11       A.   Once Risto Ivanovic told us he was the guards' commander.  I don't

12    know.  I think we were asking for some soap; we needed some soap to wash

13    ourselves.  He said, "I have to ask the guards' commander, and then we

14    also have to ask the storage room keeper whether there is any there," and

15    that is how we know that he was the guards' commander.

16       Q.   Was there a person in charge of the whole prison at KP Dom?

17       A.   Of course there was.

18       Q.   Who was that?

19       A.   Mr. Mico Krnojelac.

20       Q.   Did he have a specific title that he was referred to as?

21       A.   No, I don't know anything.

22       Q.   How did you know that he was in charge of the prison?

23       A.   Because we asked in writing to see the warden, but they never

24    approved it, they never let us see the warden, and we wrote pieces of

25    paper, little notes, and left them with the official.  The officials

Page 963

 1    collected those notes, and Savo Todovic would then come to explain to us

 2    what we were asking for, whether we were entitled to something or not,

 3    whether we could get something or not.  Some people wanted to work; some

 4    people were asking for clothes.  But from officials, we heard that

 5    Mr. Kunarac was the warden.

 6       Q.   In your last answer, it reads that "But from officials we heard

 7    that Mr. Kunarac was the warden."  Do you mean Mr. Krnojelac?  It might

 8    have been a mispronunciation.

 9       A.   Yes, you are quite right.

10       Q.   Did you know Mr. Krnojelac prior to arriving at the KP Dom, before

11    the war?

12       A.   I did, but we did not communicate, because while (redacted)

13    (redacted), as he went to work, to his school, then he had to pass

14    by my shop, by the shop that I worked in.

15       Q.   And what was Mr. Krnojelac's job?

16       A.   Teacher.  Teacher of maths.

17       Q.   And do you see Mr. Krnojelac in the courtroom today?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   Can you point to Mr. Krnojelac and describe what he's wearing.

20       A.   He has a white shirt and a jacket.  He is smiling, and has got a

21    finger on his lips.

22            MR. SMITH:  For the record, I ask that the accused has been

23    identified.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, certainly.

25            MR. SMITH:

Page 964

 1       Q.   How many times did you see Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

 2       A.   Twice.

 3       Q.   And when was the first time that you saw him, about what period?

 4       A.   1992.  1992.  I think it was when he was going with the delegation

 5    to the furniture factory.  That is when I saw him for the first time.

 6       Q.   And how many were in this delegation?

 7       A.   There were four or five persons in the delegation.

 8       Q.   And where were you when you saw him walk towards the furniture

 9    factory?

10       A.   Room 16.

11       Q.   Did you see what Mr. Krnojelac was wearing?

12       A.   Camouflage uniform.

13       Q.   Was he wearing anything around his waist?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And what was that?

16       A.   He had a belt, and he had a small calibre pistol on his belt.

17    Well, you couldn't really see, just the butt of the pistol a little bit.

18       Q.   And where was the pistol?  Was it on the side, on his side, at the

19    front, or at the back?

20       A.   At the back.

21       Q.   How long did you watch Mr. Krnojelac for and the delegation as

22    they were walking towards the furniture factory on that day?

23       A.   I wasn't watching them -- for a minute, less than that.  I got

24    away from the window because you were not allowed to look through the

25    window.  You had to be at least a metre and a half from the window so that

Page 965

 1    they don't notice you.

 2       Q.   And where did you see Mr. Krnojelac the second time that you saw

 3    him at the KP Dom?

 4       A.   After that, when Ekrem Zekovic was killed.  He was standing --

 5       Q.   Your answer states that the second time you saw Mr. Krnojelac was

 6    when Ekrem Zekovic was killed?

 7            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 8       A.   Ran away.  Ran away.  Not killed.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  That was the

10    reason for my objection, and the witness said that he ran away.

11       A.   He ran away.  He ran away, wasn't killed.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  That will be corrected then.  Thank you.

13            MR. SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I wasn't attempting to lead

14    the witness.  The sentence started, "After that ... he was standing --"

15    it wasn't clear whether it was Mr. Krnojelac or Mr. Zekovic.

16       Q.   Where did you see Mr. Krnojelac at this time?

17       A.   When we were lined up on the concrete path.  He was standing --

18    there was Mitar Rasevic, Savo Todovic, they were standing one next to the

19    other, and there was yet another one with them, but I wouldn't know who

20    that fourth one was.  I don't know him.  I mean I know him but I can't

21    give you the name, and I won't say it.  No, it's not that I won't say it.

22    I'm not sure.

23       Q.   And was this inside the KP Dom?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   And why were you lined up on the concrete path?

Page 966

 1       A.   Well, Savo was to lecture us that Ekrem Zekovic, that we did not

 2    kill him.  That nothing was wrong with him.  That we captured him.  And

 3    then he took out room after room, 13, 14, and 15, three rooms were then.

 4    And then he said, "Celebici is wholly Serb turf, not a bird can leave it."

 5    And then he said, "I have 500 bullets.  Had we not captured him, he would

 6    have killed you all.  And he'd then kill himself," he said.

 7       Q.   And how many people were you with when you lined up, apart from

 8    Mr. Krnojelac, Mr. Rasevic, Mr. Todovic and this other gentleman?

 9       A.   About 15 of us, because room after room were going for exchange.

10    We were not all together.

11       Q.   And how long after Mr. Zekovic attempted to escape from KP Dom was

12    this meeting had?  Was it the same day?  Was it a day later?  A week

13    later?  A month later?  How long after were you lined up on the concrete

14    path and lectured to by Mr. Todovic?  How long after the attempted escape

15    of Ekrem Zekovic was that?

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Is there some trouble about the interpretation

17    there?

18            Try it again, Mr. Smith.

19            MR. SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20       Q.   After the attempted escape of Ekrem Zekovic, how much later were

21    you lined up and spoken to by Mr. Todovic with Mr. Krnojelac and

22    Mr. Rasevic?

23            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.

25            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say that

Page 967

 1    Krnojelac spoke.  Mr. Smith asked him how long after you were lined up

 2    were you talked to by Mr. Krnojelac.  The witness never mentioned

 3    Mr. Krnojelac saying anything.  He only said that he was there.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  He certainly said that he was there.  I don't think

 5    he said anything more, Mr. Smith.

 6            MR. SMITH:  That's right, I misspoke, Your Honour.

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  You might try to ask that again.  But first of

 8    all, let's ask the witness, can you hear the questioning at the moment?

 9       A.   Yes.  A moment ago, I couldn't hear.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  I think you should ask the question

11    again, Mr. Smith.

12            MR. SMITH:

13       Q.   How long after the attempted escape of Mr. Zekovic were you lined

14    up and Mr. Todovic lectured you about escaping?

15       A.   Two days later.  After three days, two or three days later, we

16    came out after Zekovic escaped.  He got as far as Bunovi, not further than

17    Bunovi, and he did not go any further.

18       Q.   Did Mr. Rasevic speak at this time?

19       A.   Yes.  He told us not to try that because it would be worse for us

20    if somebody escaped or tried to escape, that he stood no chance because

21    then there would be fire at our backs.

22       Q.   Please go on.

23       A.   Mitar Rasevic came to our rooms several times to tell us not to

24    think of trying, or not to try to escape or escape or even organise the

25    escape, and that was not the first time.  It wasn't only when we were on

Page 968

 1    this concrete path.

 2       Q.   And when Mr. Todovic spoke to you as you were lined up, how far

 3    away was Mr. Krnojelac from Mr. Todovic?

 4       A.   Well, there was a metre, perhaps.  They were lined up in front of

 5    us.

 6       Q.   And how long were you lectured for?  How long were you lined up on

 7    that concrete path?

 8       A.   A couple of minutes.  We didn't --

 9       Q.   Do you know what Mr. Krnojelac was wearing on that occasion?

10       A.   Camouflage uniform.

11       Q.   Do you know whether he had that pistol on his waist on that

12    occasion or not?

13       A.   He did.  Yes, he had.

14       Q.   You mentioned Mr. Todovic.  Who was he?  What position did he have

15    at the KP Dom?

16       A.   Before the war, he was the clerk responsible for the accommodation

17    of prisoners, and that is what he went on doing.  He assigned us to

18    various tasks that had to be performed within the compound, outside the

19    compound.

20       Q.   And whilst you were at KP Dom, what was his responsibility?  Not

21    before the war, but during your stay at the KP Dom.

22       A.   Again, he was the man responsible for the assignment of convicts.

23       Q.   And which convicts are you referring to?

24       A.   Those who had been convicted before the war; Serbs, Muslims, and

25    Croats who were incarcerated there.  Because this was this prison before

Page 969

 1    the war which existed there for all the persons of the former Yugoslavia

 2    who had perpetrated criminal offences.

 3       Q.   You mentioned that in 1992 initially there were about four or five

 4    Serb convicts at the KP Dom when you arrived.  In that period when you

 5    were in Room 16 --

 6       A.   Yes -- no.  There were Serb convicts who stayed in the KP Dom but

 7    they did not sleep with us, in our rooms.

 8       Q.   In 1992, what was Mr. Todovic's role at the KP Dom?  What was his

 9    function?

10       A.   Assigning tasks.  He was the one who assigned you to do this or

11    that.  Nobody could send you to do anything unless Savo Todovic did.

12    Unless Savo Todovic ordered it, then you could not go and do anything.

13    And it was his order, when you heard his voice and his order, then you

14    knew that you had to do it.  Nobody else could order it.

15       Q.   When you say "assigning tasks," are you referring to work tasks or

16    other duties?

17       A.   Work tasks.  What you were to do in the compound, outside the

18    compound, at the business unit, mine, the metal shop, wood chopping, wood

19    collecting, Savo was the one who assigned you to all that.

20       Q.   What did Mr. Todovic wear?  What clothing?

21       A.   Depended on the time of the year.  He never wore a camouflage

22    uniform.  I never saw him in civilian [sic].  He wore a kind of a

23    sheepskin coat and that's why we called him Bunda.

24       Q.   In your last answer, you stated that he never wore a camouflage

25    uniform, and then you said that you never "saw him in civilian."  Can you

Page 970

 1    clarify your answer?  Would he wear camouflage clothing; would he wear

 2    civilian clothing?

 3       A.   Did you say that I never saw him?  Is that it, sir?

 4       Q.   I'm not saying that you never saw him, I'm just asking you what he

 5    wore, generally.  It's a bit unclear at this stage.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  It's not really unclear.  He has said he never saw

 7    him in civilian clothes; he never wore a camouflage uniform.  I would have

 8    thought there's only one alternative left, and that was he wore some other

 9    sort of uniform.  If you want to know what that is, why don't you ask

10    him.

11            MR. SMITH:  I will, Your Honour.

12       Q.   You stated that he didn't wear camouflage and he didn't wear

13    civilian clothes.  What did he wear?

14       A.   It was the olive-grey/green colour of the Bunda, of the sheepskin,

15    and trousers of the same colour.  Not camouflage, but SMB,

16    olive-green/grey.

17       Q.   Thank you.  Did he mistreat people at the KP Dom whilst you were

18    there?

19       A.   It was enough for us to see him pass through the compound, nobody

20    needed to beat us or hit us because everybody was afraid of him.  We'd all

21    tremble when we would see him cross the compound, and he was there

22    practically every day.

23       Q.   Why were people afraid of him?

24       A.   Don't know.  Don't know.  I don't know why I was afraid of him.

25    He always looked bad-tempered.  Don't know.

Page 971

 1       Q.   Apart from the guards, were there any other security measures in

 2    place at the KP Dom?

 3       A.   Sorry.  In the beginning, there were a couple of soldiers, but

 4    they were elderly men who stood guard above, that is, behind the rooms

 5    that we were in, next to the factory, I mean the furniture factory.  That

 6    is where they walked up and down at night -- by day and at night, you

 7    could also see them.  If we went to the lavatory, which was to the

 8    right-hand side, we could see them walk up and down.

 9            That was for a very short while, then they were withdrawn, and

10    then active-duty police came who had worked for the KP Dom in Foca before

11    the war.

12       Q.   Did you notice anything on the administration building -- on the

13    second floor of the administration building, in terms of a security

14    measure?

15       A.   Yes.  There was a machine-gun positioned on that administrative

16    building.  Because as you come from the window opposite Room 16, there was

17    a machine-gun surrounded by sandbags and it was positioned in the window.

18    There was always somebody next to it; at least, you could see the top of

19    their head, you couldn't see their face.  When we would get out, we would

20    see the machine-gun which was in the window.

21       Q.   When did you first see that machine-gun?

22       A.   Three days after I left the isolation cell.

23       Q.   When was the last time that you know the machine-gun was there?

24       A.   Don't remember.

25       Q.   In which direction was the machine-gun pointed?

Page 972












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 973

 1       A.   Our rooms.  Towards the exit from the building where we would line

 2    up in front of the staircase, before we come down to this concrete path,

 3    that is what it was firing at; as a matter of fact, not firing at but

 4    pointing at.

 5            MR. SMITH:  I'll now ask the usher to place P88 on the ELMO, and

 6    I'd ask the witness to be able to point out the location where that

 7    machine-gun was placed.

 8       Q.   If you can use the pointer, Witness, and place the pointer on the

 9    building in which the machine-gun was placed.

10       A.   I've shown it.

11       Q.   Are you familiar with this diagram of KP Dom?

12            MR. SMITH:  For the record, Your Honour, the witness has --

13       A.   Just a moment.  No, no, I was wrong, sorry.

14            MR. SMITH:  For the record [counsel's voice obscured by

15    translation]

16            JUDGE HUNT:  That wasn't fully recorded.  What you were saying was

17    that he had originally pointed at building number 4, and then he said he

18    was wrong.

19       A.   I was wrong.  I was wrong.  I pointed at the school.  I pointed at

20    the school, I'm sorry.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  You tell us where you saw the machine-gun, would you,

22    please, sir?

23       A.   [Indicates]

24            JUDGE HUNT:  He's now pointing at building 2.

25            MR. SMITH:

Page 974

 1       Q.   You explained that the machine-gun was pointing towards the

 2    prisoners' rooms.

 3       A.   Yes.  The staircase here.

 4       Q.   Was the machine-gun in the window on the other side of the

 5    building number 2, on the compound side of the building?

 6       A.   Not really, because the other side is not shown.  These buildings

 7    have been moved, as far as I can see, by a few metres down the Drina.

 8    These buildings should be higher upstream, upstream the Drina, not as it

 9    was drawn here.  I can find my way around this, but other people will not,

10    the way it's been drawn.

11            JUDGE HUNT:  I can only say I feel absolutely justified,

12    Mr. Smith.  Why can't we use the plan?

13            MR. SMITH:  I'd ask that Exhibit P6/1 be produced to the witness.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Perhaps it would be best if all of 6, so /1, /2, /3,

15     /4, and /5, be produced.

16            MR. SMITH:  Yes.  Perhaps P6/3, which is the second floor of the

17    administrative building.

18       Q.   Witness, Exhibit P6/3 in front of you is a plan of the prisoners'

19    quarters and buildings number 1 and number 2 on that three-dimensional

20    drawing you have just seen.  Buildings number 1 and number 2 are at the

21    bottom of the plan, and the prisoners' accommodation appears at the top,

22    where you see Rooms 13, 14, 18, and 19.

23            This is in relation to buildings number 1 and 2:  You indicated on

24    Exhibit P88 that the machine-gun was pointing out of a window in building

25    number 2, the administrative building.

Page 975

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Can you place the pointer on the room in which the machine-gun was

 3    pointing out of the window?  Building number 2 is the long, thin

 4    rectangle --

 5       A.   Quite.  It's the administrative building, the cinema, and where

 6    they had the school for the convicts who attended classes there before the

 7    war.

 8       Q.   Building number 1 is on the left, building number 2 is in the

 9    middle, and building number 3 just commences on the right-hand side of

10    P6/3.  Have you orientated yourself around this map?  Is it useful for

11    you?

12       A.   It should be somewhere here.  When you look up at the stairs of

13    18, 16, and 20, which you took down, then it was directly here.  If this

14    was the cinema where we were showing, so it is where the administrative

15    building was and the administration, and it should be here.

16            MR. SMITH:  For the record, the witness indicates the second room

17    from the left, from the right-hand staircase of building number 2, on

18    P6/3.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, I think it would be better described in the

20    room where the letters "DA" appear.

21            MR. SMITH:  That is far simpler, Your Honour.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm sorry?

23            MR. SMITH:  That is far simpler, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, thank you.

25            MR. SMITH:

Page 976

 1       Q.   Witness, I'd now like to ask you some questions about the work

 2    that you undertook at KP Dom.  You stated earlier that you commenced your

 3    work about six months after arriving at KP Dom.  What was the first work

 4    that you did?

 5       A.   Yes.  My first job was piling up firewood which was in the

 6    compound which was used to cook food for us, and to heat rooms in the

 7    administrative building where the officials were.

 8       Q.   And how long did you do this work for?

 9       A.   I did that for about three or four months, two to three months.

10    And then Savo Todovic transferred me to Room 18.  That was a room where

11    people did not go to work.  I stayed there until April 1993.  Then he took

12    all of us out, all of us from 13 and 14 who were not working.  And as we

13    stood there in the park, he was sitting on a bench, and he would just look

14    at our faces and he'd say, "You go to the factory.  You go to deal with

15    the firewood."  He sent some to the metal plant, others to the farm, and I

16    heard that I was supposed to work at the factory.

17            I worked at the factory all the way up to the month of October,

18    1993.  When we were returning from the factory, actually when we returned

19    from the factory, we went to breakfast.  Savo Todovic was going towards

20    the kitchen from the administration building.  He stopped us.  Actually,

21    an official stopped us and he walked up to us and he said Dzevad Causevic

22    and (redacted) should go to the mine.  And he asked me whether I had

23    anything to say and I said no.

24       Q.   Can we go back to when you first started your work, the wood

25    chopping.  How many others did you work with?

Page 977

 1       A.   Five, four, six, it depends.  Sometimes there were three.

 2    Sometimes people went to unload flour and then two would remain.

 3            MR. SMITH:  In relation to an answer given at line 16, I would ask

 4    that --

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  It's already on the way.

 6            MR. SMITH:

 7       Q.   The other people that you worked with during the wood chopping,

 8    were they Muslim detainees, were they Serb convicts, or were they someone

 9    else?

10       A.   All of them were Muslims.

11       Q.   And for about how many hours in the day did you do that work, that

12    wood chopping?

13       A.   In the morning at 7.00, when it is breakfast time, until 3.00 or

14    4.00 in the afternoon.

15       Q.   And who supervised the work?  Did anyone supervise you?

16       A.   There were always officials in the kitchen, around the kitchen.

17    You couldn't just walk around.  You could not leave the place where you

18    were supposed to work.  You could only go to the kitchen for breakfast,

19    and then for the snack, mid-morning snack, and then everyone knew when

20    lunch was.  Then civilians who worked in the KP Dom, and the detainees,

21    everyone went to have lunch, and then we went straight to the dormitory.

22       Q.   And after the wood chopping work, did you have a break over the

23    winter of 1992/1993?

24       A.   Yes.  1992/1993, I paused during the winter and this pause was for

25    about five or six months.

Page 978

 1       Q.   And what month did you start in 1993 at the furniture factory?

 2       A.   The month of April.

 3       Q.   And what work did you do in that furniture factory in April of

 4    1993?

 5       A.   First, I was putting bookshelves and that kind of furniture

 6    together.  Before the war, civilians were the bosses there but then these

 7    bosses were arrested together with us, and they showed us how this was

 8    supposed to be assembled for a day or two.  It is machines that actually

 9    did the assembling but then we just had to put in the right parts.  Then I

10    was with one of these bosses who worked there before the war.  Then we

11    started upholstering sofas, armchairs, and then sometimes when trucks were

12    loaded to drive goods to Montenegro, to Niksic, then I went there to load

13    these goods.

14       Q.   And for about how long did you work in the furniture factory doing

15    this type of work?

16       A.   A few months.  I don't know exactly how long we worked.

17       Q.   Did you work -- during that few-month period, did you work daily

18    or was it irregular?

19       A.   Are you asking me about the factory?

20       Q.   When you worked inside the furniture factory, you said that you

21    worked there for a few months.  Did you work there daily or was it more

22    irregularly?

23       A.   No.  No.  From Monday until Friday.  Saturdays and Sundays you did

24    not work.  Sometimes, if necessary, you'd work on a Saturday, but that was

25    seldom.

Page 979

 1       Q.   And what hours did you work at the furniture factory?

 2       A.   Normal working hours, eight hours, just like the civilians who

 3    were our bosses.

 4       Q.   Before you worked inside the furniture factory doing the

 5    upholstery and putting shelves together, did you work on the roof of the

 6    factory, replacing the roof on that factory?

 7       A.   Yes.  First, the lower part of the hangar, actually get the wood,

 8    and then it would be processed, and it was bullet-riddled there and then

 9    we had to cover it first so that the machines would not just stand in the

10    rain as well as the wood that was piled up in those hangars.

11       Q.   You mentioned that you started work in the furniture factory,

12    inside it in April of 1993.  Did you work on the roof of the furniture

13    factory before that or after that?

14       A.   After the factory, I worked on the roof, the factory roof, and

15    then I had this pause, and then I went back to the factory.

16       Q.   You stated that you started work at the mine, I think, in late

17    1993; is that right?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And how long did you work at the mine for?

20       A.   In the mine, people would work intermittently.  Sometimes you'd

21    need to go there, sometimes you wouldn't need to go there.  And then

22    sometimes you would work at the farm and sometimes you wouldn't work at

23    the farm.  Sometimes there wasn't any electricity.

24       Q.   At what period did you work at the mine?  From October 1993 until

25    when?

Page 980

 1       A.   All the way up to the 5th of October, 1994.  There were only some

 2    breaks when we did agricultural farming work, when we worked in the field,

 3    when we chopped wood.  I cannot say exactly for how long I went out

 4    plowing and when I went out to cut grass, and also when I went to chop

 5    wood, it was needed for heating the KP Dom because, later on, from the

 6    International Red Cross, we got these furnaces so we could have heating.

 7       Q.   Can you explain what a typical day working at the mine was like;

 8    what time you started, what time you finished, where the mine was, and

 9    what type of work you did.

10       A.   We would get up at 6.00 in the morning, you would get ready, wash

11    your face, have your breakfast.  The vehicle would be waiting for us at

12    7.00, sometimes earlier, sometimes later.  It depended whether it would be

13    a KP Dom vehicle, whether it would be a mine vehicle, whether it would be

14    a military vehicle.

15            Then we'd get there, say, around 7.30 and then we would have to

16    change our clothes.  And then you take food so that you could eat in the

17    mine.  That would be 8.00.  And then you'd work until 3.00, or rather 2.00

18    or 2.30, you'd go out, take a bath, sometimes using cold water.  Sometimes

19    you'd have to wash in the stream because there would be no electricity for

20    heating water.  You'd bathe.  Sometimes there would be a closed vehicle

21    but then, most of the time, there was only an FAP truck, an open one, and

22    then you'd just sit on that even if it were 15 or 20 below zero.

23       Q.   And was the work at the mine light work or heavy work?

24       A.   Never in my life did I do harder work, and never was I more afraid

25    than when I worked in the mine.

Page 981

 1       Q.   Why were you afraid whilst you were working at the mine?

 2       A.   Because the mine did not work in regular shifts and then rocks

 3    would fall and it would be difficult to get from one place to another.

 4    You'd have to crawl on your stomach for about 20, 30 metres.  The worst

 5    was when you had to carry a piece of wood so -- for four or five metres so

 6    that you would keep the roof up, as the miners would say, otherwise it

 7    would all fall down and crush you.  We all had to do that, and we did

 8    everything by hand.  We had to dig and load things by hand, and then it's

 9    easier when there's electricity because then it would be easier to do

10    things not only manually.

11       Q.   And you were digging coal at the mine; is that right?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And how much coal were you expected to dig individually a day?

14       A.   Every one of us was expected to dig at least ten tonnes.  Daily,

15    about 100, 150 tonnes were taken out.  If it were real coal, it would have

16    been easier, but there was a lot of earth, soil in there too.

17       Q.   And where was the mine?

18       A.   In Miljevina, about 20, 25 kilometres away from Foca, towards

19    Sarajevo.

20       Q.   And how many other detainees worked with you at that mine?

21       A.   Well, it depends how many were needed; 10, 12, up to 17 at the

22    most.  It was never the same number.  Someone would either get sick or

23    someone would get injured at the mine.  Nobody was a professional so they

24    would get hurt easily, and there was always somebody who was away because

25    he was sick.  But only an official could approve this kind of sick leave,

Page 982

 1    otherwise the only reason why one would be allowed not to go out and work

 2    would be sickness.

 3       Q.   Who guarded you at the mine?

 4       A.   Officials.

 5       Q.   And were they from the KP Dom or from somewhere else?

 6       A.   Officials from the KP Dom.  About two or three times we were

 7    guarded by the military police but we always had one official with us.

 8    There weren't enough officials.

 9       Q.   Did you ever work at the prison farm?

10       A.   Yes.  I'd fertilise the land, harvest corn, dig up potatoes, make

11    haystacks.

12       Q.   And where was the prison farm?

13       A.   About four -- three, four kilometres away from Foca, towards

14    Godjevno, up the so-called Cehotina river.

15       Q.   Do you know when you started at that farm?  Was it 1992, 1993 or

16    1994?

17       A.   1993 -- 1993, I didn't; 1994, I was in the mine.  And then when I

18    worked in the mine, you'd work until Friday and then you would be off on

19    Saturday and Sunday; but then on Saturdays we would have to go to work to

20    the farm so that the land could be fertilised and that it could be

21    prepared for plowing.

22       Q.   For about how many days did you work at the farm?

23       A.   Ten days, fifteen days, approximately, if I were to add it all

24    up.

25       Q.   Who supervised this work?

Page 983

 1       A.   Officials.

 2       Q.   I'll now ask you some questions in relation to the work generally

 3    that you had to do at KP Dom.  Did you ask to do it; were you told to do

 4    it; were you ordered to do it?

 5       A.   The first time I got out after six months, Vlatko took me out to

 6    work with the firewood.  I worked there for a certain amount of time and

 7    then I was transferred to Room 18.  And then, in fact, I stopped working

 8    and then I left from number 20.

 9            Once I wrote a piece of paper; I gave it to an official so that

10    he'd give it to Savo so that Savo would see me and let me work.  He called

11    five or six of us in, and then we went into this little room, this little

12    office of his one by one.  Then this official asked me and said, "What do

13    you want?" and I said, "I want to work," and he said, "Impossible."

14            I was on my way out; I wanted to close the door.  He looked at me

15    and I looked at him, and he said, "You will have to go to solitary

16    confinement," and I did not say a word.  I knew where the solitary

17    confinement cells were.  I went to the solitary confinement cell.  Obren

18    Obrenovic locked me in there, and I was there on his orders for five or

19    six days.

20       Q.   Who said that it was impossible that you would work?  Was that

21    Savo Todovic or someone else?

22       A.   Savo Todovic.

23       Q.   Did he tell you why you were being placed in solitary confinement

24    for making that request?

25       A.   I don't know.  I don't know the reason; I don't know why he locked

Page 984

 1    me up.  Was the reason the fact that I asked?  I don't know.  I can't

 2    say.  I don't know.

 3       Q.   Now I'm asking you about the times that you did work mainly doing

 4    the wood chopping, working on the furniture factory roof, working in the

 5    furniture factory, and working at the mine and at the farm.  Were you

 6    selected to do that work or did you ask to do that work?

 7       A.   Selected.  But when I asked, I didn't get it.

 8       Q.   How were you selected to do that work?  How did you know that you

 9    had to work on those occasions?

10       A.   An official would come with a piece of paper and say such and such

11    and such a person is going there and such and such and such a person is

12    going here.  On the paper, it would say whether it was the official who

13    wrote this or whether Savo Todovic had written this, and we wouldn't know

14    who had written it.  But nobody could assign you to any kind of work if

15    Savo Todovic did not assign you.

16       Q.   When you were selected to do this work, were you given a choice?

17    Did the person say, "Would you like to do this work" or "You are doing

18    this work"?

19       A.   No.  If somebody had a special craft, something he knew how to do,

20    he would never do that, he would always be sent to do something

21    different.  If you refused something -- Muhamed Lisica had refused;

22    probably he didn't want to do something for someone, perhaps he was

23    nervous on that day or something.  Savo Todovic assigned him to solitary

24    confinement, working solitary confinement.  He would be in solitary

25    confinement during the night, and in the morning he would be taken to

Page 985

 1    breakfast and then he'd work, and then he'd have lunch and then be sent

 2    back to the solitary confinement cell.  So he could order you to work in a

 3    work unit and spend the night in solitary confinement, in isolation,

 4    without anyone else.  If any one of us had refused work, the same thing

 5    would have happened to him as had happened to Muhamed Lisica.

 6       Q.   Was the work paid?

 7       A.   No.

 8       Q.   Were there any extra privileges given to you or given to detainees

 9    for working?

10       A.   Well, yes, when we were cutting grass, we would have five or ten

11    cigarettes, and of course, you'd get more bread than those who were in the

12    compound or who were not working.

13       Q.   Did the Serb prisoners work as well?

14       A.   Yes.  When we cut grass and when we gathered hay, yes, they did go

15    and work.  But they were trying to get out just in order to get out of the

16    compound.  They would come to the place where hay was supposed to be

17    loaded and then they'd run away.  They'd go into the forest; they didn't

18    want to work.  Then they'd come back to the place where we would have

19    lunch and then they would be there for lunch, and then after that, again

20    they would go away.  They didn't do a stitch of work; we actually had to

21    do all the work.

22       Q.   The same guards that guarded the Muslim detainees whilst they

23    worked, did they also guard the Serb prisoners?

24       A.   Yes.  It wasn't that you worked in two different places.  I mean,

25    you could not have one official guarding two different fields.  So

Page 986












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 987

 1    sometimes Serbs and Muslims had to work together; then also sometimes we

 2    would be divided up into two groups, and then there would have to be two

 3    guards.  But if we were all together, then it would be the same guard for

 4    the Serbs and the Muslims.

 5       Q.   I think you said that some Serb convicts worked in the furniture

 6    factory; is that right?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did the same guards in the furniture factory guard the Serb

 9    convicts as the Muslim detainees?

10       A.   Nobody had to guard us there.  It was inside, in a room.

11    Everything around it was mined.  There was an official who would be

12    walking about the factory, guarding us and them.  But we also had Serb

13    civilians there, and we had Serb bosses there who were in charge of the

14    actual manufacturing and they were responsible for us.  So we didn't

15    really need anyone to guard us.

16            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, I think it would be a good time to pause

17    here.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  I should say that there is a special meeting of

19    the President's Bureau at 1.00 today at which Judge Mumba and I are

20    required to attend, so we will be adjourning a little before 1.00.

21            We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

22                          --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

23                          --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Smith.

25            MR. SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 988

 1       Q.   Witness, earlier this morning you mentioned that you were

 2    interviewed by a Zoran Vladicic whilst you were in the KP Dom and he

 3    interviewed you about whether -- about whether or not you possessed any

 4    weapons?

 5       A.   [No translation].

 6       Q.   How many times whilst you were in KP Dom were you interviewed?

 7       A.   [No translation].

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  We're not getting any translation here.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  One, two, three.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  We can hear you now.

11            THE INTERPRETER:  The answer was "Three times."

12            JUDGE HUNT:  You don't happen to remember what the answer to the

13    previous question was.

14            THE INTERPRETER:  Merely the affirmative.  Merely in the

15    confirmation, he said, "Yes, yes."

16            MR. SMITH:

17       Q.   When Zoran Vladicic interviewed you, was that the first time, the

18    second time or the third time?

19       A.   The first time.

20       Q.   How long after you arrived at KP Dom did Zoran Vladicic interview

21    you?

22       A.   After 20 days or maybe a month.

23       Q.   And then the second time that you were interviewed, how long after

24    that first interview was it?

25       A.   After two or maybe three months, nobody ever wrote down dates or

Page 989

 1    even thought about that.

 2       Q.   But it was while you were in Room 16?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   The first interview, which building was that in?

 5       A.   The administrative building.

 6       Q.   Was it on the ground floor, or the first, or second floor?

 7       A.   First.  First floor.  The same floor where that machine-gun was

 8    positioned.  One or two windows behind.

 9       Q.   The second time that you were interviewed, who interviewed you?

10       A.   Koprivica.  Koprivica, but I don't know his first name.  I've

11    forgotten it.

12       Q.   Did you know Koprivica from before the war?

13       A.   Yes.  He worked for Maglic, and his wife was a lawyer and she

14    worked for the hosiery factory.

15       Q.   And what job did he do at the Maglic factory?

16       A.   I don't know.

17       Q.   And where was the second interview with Koprivica?  Where was that

18    held?

19       A.   In the second building at the entrance, at the exit -- at the

20    entrance from the compound into the building to the right.  Next to the

21    reception room where you report when you come into the building, and that

22    is to the left.  And when you are coming in from the -- from inside the

23    compound, then it is to the right.

24       Q.   Was that on the ground floor or the first floor, the second

25    interview?

Page 990

 1       A.   Ground floor, because you -- when you start from there upstairs,

 2    then there are some stairs.  I didn't even look.  No, probably the first

 3    floor.  As a matter of fact, on the ground floor.

 4       Q.   What was this interview about with Koprivica?

 5       A.   Koprivica interviewed me whether I -- because I had a firearm, a

 6    pistol which I had not reported to Vladicic, and that is why they summoned

 7    me for interview the second time.  And then I was told that, in my

 8    apartment, they had found a contraption, a device which allegedly,

 9    according to them, I wanted to use to blow up a convoy of vehicles and

10    heavy armament which was moving through Uzice to Gorazde, to Foca, down to

11    Tjentiste and Trebinje.  And they charged me with that and I never had

12    anything like it, nor did I have it in my possession, and I merely denied

13    it.  I didn't have anything of that.  And he said, "Right, if you didn't,

14    you didn't."  And I said I didn't.

15            And then Zoran Vladicic came and there was another bloke, a

16    dark-haired one but I don't know him, and we went to the gate from --

17    through which -- to the -- into the compound, and Koprivica said, "Off

18    with him to the solitary confinement cell."  And I looked at -- I glanced

19    at Zoran Vladicic and he merely shrugged his shoulders and said nothing,

20    and I was locked up in the solitary confinement cell.

21       Q.   And for how many days were you placed in solitary confinement?

22       A.   Two, three, four days.  Don't know.  I might have stayed -- I

23    would have stayed there longer had not the Serbs who were there before the

24    war who were convicts and they had -- they got drunk somewhere, and they

25    had nowhere to lock them up, and Mitar Rasevic personally brought them and

Page 991

 1    told me to get out and another one with whom I was there.  They told us to

 2    get out and go to the room, and so Mitar Rasevic let me go to the room.

 3       Q.   You stated earlier that you were questioned whether or not you had

 4    a pistol and whether or not you had some contraption that would be used to

 5    blow up something, whether it be a truck or a building.  Did you have a

 6    pistol when you were arrested back on the 25th of April?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Did you use that pistol or did you have it --

 9            THE COURT REPORTER:  Excuse me.  I'm sorry to interrupt, but

10    there's just a problem with our -- my computer has frozen.  Can I just

11    have one second.

12                          [Technical difficulty]

13            THE COURT REPORTER:  It's fine now.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Are the translators able to tell us whether what has

15    been typed is all that was said?

16            THE INTERPRETER:  No, the last question is missing and the answer

17    to it.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Have you any recollection of it or should it be asked

19    again?

20            THE INTERPRETER:  No, we do not.  It should be asked again.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Smith, you better ask that question again.

22            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, I was going to rely on them.

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, you can't.  You'll have to ask it again.

24            MR. SMITH:  Yes, Your Honour.

25       Q.   You were asked by Mr. Koprivica whether or not you had a pistol or

Page 992

 1    whether or not you had an explosive device in your apartment.  When you

 2    were arrested --

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   -- on the 25th of April, did you have an explosive device in your

 5    apartment?

 6       A.   No.  I only had a pistol, which stayed behind in the apartment.

 7       Q.   When you were placed in solitary confinement, were you scared

 8    about what may happen to you whilst you were in solitary confinement or

 9    not?

10       A.   I wasn't afraid because I knew that that was all I had, that

11    pistol.  I suggested to Koprivica to then go together to the flat and take

12    it, but he said, "You don't have to go.  We've already been there.  Your

13    keys are with Milenko Vladicic.  Everything is all right in your flat.

14    Nobody took away anything," and that was that, except that he said that

15    they'd found that.  But I stand by what I said, that there wasn't

16    anything.  Had there been anything, I don't think I would be alive today.

17       Q.   The third time that you were interviewed, how long after the

18    second interview with Koprivica was that?

19       A.   Well, it was all during five or six months from the beginning, and

20    then for five or six months while I was in Room 16.

21       Q.   Who interviewed you the third time?

22       A.   Zoran, and then Zoran -- and then he said, "Well, pal, you should

23    have told that," and I said, "Well, we've been told that after we gave the

24    interview, that we'd be allowed to go."  Because that pistol was merely a

25    souvenir, a souvenir which was left to me, an heirloom from my

Page 993

 1    grandfather, that is why I never thought of reporting it.

 2       Q.   That was Zoran Vladicic who interviewed you the third time?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Did Zoran Vladicic tell you on this occasion or on the first

 5    occasion why you continued to be detained at the KP Dom?

 6       A.   No.

 7       Q.   Were most detainees at the KP Dom interviewed, as far as you know?

 8       A.   Almost everybody was interviewed.

 9       Q.   Where would those interviews be held?  Which building?

10       A.   The administrative building.

11       Q.   Do you know which floor these interviews would generally be held

12    on; the ground floor or the first or the second floor?

13       A.   The first floor.

14       Q.   Now, who would generally conduct these interviews?  You've

15    explained that Koprivica and Zoran Vukicic [sic] conducted your

16    interviews.  Who conducted the other ones?

17       A.   Apart from those two, there were two others, but I don't know

18    them.  After talking to others, I saw that others didn't know them.  The

19    third -- the fourth, as a matter of fact, I didn't even see him ask

20    questions, I only heard it from others.  The fourth one was with Koprivica

21    when he was interviewing me, and they were in civilian -- those were,

22    after all, all in civilian clothes.  He didn't say anything to me, he just

23    watched.  He didn't say anything to me.

24       Q.   Zoran Vladicic and Koprivica, did they work at the KP Dom every

25    day whilst you were there, say, whilst you were in Room 16?

Page 994

 1       A.   Yes, yes, as investigators.  He was an investigator before the war

 2    for the police, for the SUP.  He worked for the police.

 3       Q.   These investigators that conducted the interviews, do you know

 4    whether that was their sole job, to do the interviews at KP Dom, or did

 5    they have some other role as well as conducting interviews?

 6       A.   I don't know.

 7       Q.   When these interviews were conducted, were guards present?

 8    Firstly, I'd like you to answer in relation to your --

 9       A.   No.

10       Q.   -- interviews.  Were guards present at your interviews?

11       A.   No.

12       Q.   On the three occasions that you were interviewed, how did you get

13    to the administration building?  Who took you there, or did you go by

14    yourself?

15       A.   The official would call from the gate.  I mean this official who

16    is in the building.  He has his telephone and talks to the gate, "Such and

17    such is to come out."  So you come out.  And then there is the official

18    waiting there and then Zoran awaits you.

19            When I came out and went down to the administrative building, then

20    he took me into an office, a small one, 2 by 3.  There was a desk on one

21    side and two chairs, or at least I didn't look much.  He sat on one side

22    and I sat on the other.

23       Q.   And this official, did the official come to your room, your Room

24    16?

25       A.   Yes.  They had to open the door to let me out because I couldn't

Page 995

 1    get out otherwise.

 2       Q.   And when you say it was an official, was it a guard, a regular

 3    guard, or someone else?

 4       A.   Yes, the official, the regular guard, and we called him

 5    official.  That's what the former convicts used to address them, and they

 6    called them officials because they were their superiors.

 7       Q.   And did the guard take you to the interview room?

 8       A.   No.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

11            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness had just

12    answered that he was taken over by Vladicic and took him to the upper

13    floor from the guard.  So once again, so the guard took you to the

14    interview room.

15            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the point of the

16    objection.  He has said --

17            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness, when asked by the

18    Prosecution, explained the procedure for going for an interview.  That, in

19    the passage, the inspector would take him over from the official and take

20    him upstairs into the room.  And then the next question was -- that is, I

21    don't know whether to call it a question or an answer at the same time:

22    "So this means that the guard took you to the room for interviews."  And

23    the witness has just explained the procedure.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  He explained it in this way:  He was asked this

25    question, "When you say it was an official, was it a guard, a regular

Page 996

 1    guard or someone else?"  Answer:  "Yes, the official, the regular guard.

 2    And we called him official."  And then the question was, "And did the

 3    guard take you to the interview room?"

 4            What's the problem?

 5            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Before that, Your Honours -- let me

 6    just look at the transcript.  The question was --

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  The question to which you are objecting, "And did the

 8    guard take you to the interview room?"

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Indeed.  But the previous -- but

10    previously, the witness had already answered the Prosecutor's question

11    that Vladicic took him over from the guard in the passage and that he,

12    himself, took him into the interview room.  Page 42, line 24 in the

13    transcript.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Did you say page 42, line 24?

15            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  I'll review the whole of that passage.  "On the three

17    occasions that you were interviewed, how did you get to the administration

18    building?  Who took you there, or did you go by yourself?"  Answer:  "The

19    official would call from the gate.  I mean this official who was in the

20    building.  He has his telephone and talks to the gate.  Such and such is

21    to come out.  So you come out.  And then there is the official waiting

22    there.  And then Zoran awaits you.  When I came out and went to the

23    administration building, then he took me into an office, a small one, two

24    by three.  There was a desk on one side and two chairs," et cetera.  And

25    then the question:  "And this official, did the official come to your

Page 997

 1    room, your Room 16?"  Answer:  "Yes."  "And when you say it was an

 2    official, was it a guard, or a regular guard, or someone else?"  Answer:

 3    "Yes," and I've read you that part already.

 4            Now, at best, it's equivocal, but you are asserting that his

 5    answer can only be understood as saying that Zoran, who is awaiting him,

 6    the guard having called him out, took him into the office.  Is that what

 7    you're saying?

 8            Well, Mr. Smith, I must say I did not understand it that way when

 9    it was given, but looking at it in the transcript, I think it is perhaps

10    equivocal.  You'd better clear that up.  Ask him specifically whether

11    Zoran or the guard took him into the office.  I'm not sure how this is

12    important, but let's get it straight.

13            MR. SMITH:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14       Q.   On the first time that you were interviewed, did a guard take you

15    to Zoran Vladicic's office?

16       A.   No.  The official did not take him to his office or to his room,

17    whatever you call it.  He only took me out of the room.  He unlocked the

18    room and told me to go towards the gate leading out of the compound.  And

19    I did, I went out into the lobby, and in the lobby there was Vladicic,

20    Zoran Vladicic waiting for me, and he took me into the interview room.

21       Q.   So you went across from Room 16 to the administration building by

22    yourself?

23       A.   By myself.  By myself.

24       Q.   When the interview was conducted -- the first interview, the

25    second interview, and the third interview -- were there guards outside of

Page 998












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 999

 1    the interview room or not?

 2       A.   No.  Not in my case.  About others [as interpreted] --

 3       Q.   How, generally, were detainees taken for interview?  You talked

 4    about yourself, but what was the general practice?  You said that most

 5    detainees at the KP Dom were interviewed.  How would they be called for

 6    interviews, and how would they be taken there to the administration

 7    building, or would they walk across by themselves like you have stated?

 8            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 46, line 10, the

 9    end is missing, "Not in my case.  About others --" and there are two

10    dashes, and the witness said, "I don't know about others."  So that this

11    is also the answer to this next question of the Prosecution.  We can ask

12    the witness, but he said, "I don't know about others."  And that says only

13     "about others" and there are two dashes after that whereas he said, "I

14    don't know."

15            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm sorry to keep reminding you, but a point is not

16    made any the better by repeating it time and time again.  You've made the

17    point.  You say that where the dashes are, the witness said "I don't

18    know."  That's all you needed to say so, if I may say so, to make your

19    point.

20            Well, Mr. Smith, it wasn't heard.  It certainly wasn't

21    translated.  You'd better get that cleared up, whether you go and ask him

22    whether he is able to assist you about other people.

23            MR. SMITH:

24       Q.   Do you know whether other detainees were taken across to the

25    administration building?  Do you know how other detainees were taken

Page 1000

 1    across to the administration building for interviews, whether they were

 2    accompanied or unaccompanied?

 3       A.   It all depended on the number of how many of them were going.  If

 4    there were two or three, then they would be escorted.  If not, if it was

 5    only one, then he would go on his own.  If there were several of them,

 6    then the official had to take them so that they wouldn't do something, and

 7    somebody had to be with them in the administrative building while they

 8    waited their turn.

 9       Q.   And you mentioned that most of the detainees were interviewed.

10    When detainees were interviewed at the administration building, did they

11    generally go across to the building individually or in groups, as far as

12    you know?

13       A.   No.  The rule was not to go individually.  There were -- sometimes

14    two or three would go, but I don't know if there were three or four or

15    only one inside or whether two -- I don't know that.  And whether somebody

16    guarded them, if three or four would go, because two, or three, or four

17    could not go in.  It was all individual.  You were only by yourself when

18    you signed those statements.

19       Q.   And why were the Muslim detainees at the KP Dom, why were they

20    interviewed, just briefly?

21       A.   I don't know.

22       Q.   Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever beaten?  Were you

23    ever assaulted?

24       A.   Yes.  Mara, Maric slapped me several times, I don't know what his

25    first name is, I know him Maro, Mara.

Page 1001

 1       Q.   Did you know him from before the war or did you first meet him at

 2    the KP Dom?

 3       A.   I knew him before the war.  I knew all the officials before the

 4    war because I worked at such a place that they came to my place to do

 5    their shopping.  Not only officials, but everybody, all the peoples, all

 6    the Focians.  It's not that we met; I go to work, they go to work.

 7       Q.   You mentioned that Maric slapped you several times.  Where did he

 8    do that?

 9       A.   In front of the door into the room, the 16.

10       Q.   Was that inside the room or outside of it?

11       A.   In front of the room.

12       Q.   Why did he slap you?  Do you have any reason why he did that?

13       A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

14       Q.   Did he say anything when he did it, either before or after?

15       A.   When he took me out, he just said to me that if I were in his

16    place, I -- if he were detained and if I were in his place, that I would

17    stab a knife into his back and that I'd throw him into the Drina River.

18    Then he hit me, and Vaso Pljevaljcic walked up and he told him to let me

19    go.  And then he did let me go.  He opened the door for me and I walked

20    into the room.

21       Q.   And who is Vaso Pljevaljcic?

22       A.   Pljevaljcic.  Pljevaljcic.  He is an official.  And this Vaso

23    (redacted).  An official,

24    but a retired official.

25       Q.   And did you know whether he worked at the KP Dom before the war?

Page 1002

 1       A.   Yes.  Yes.  He earned his retirement pension at the KP Dom.

 2       Q.   Where were you slapped?  On what part of the body were you

 3    slapped?

 4       A.   This side here.  As I was standing there, he hit me this way, and

 5    with the back of my head I hit the corner, the corner of the concrete.  I

 6    felt dizzy.  Fortunately, Vaso came by.  He'd probably gone on beating me

 7    had that not happened.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Do you want that recorded as to the demonstration he

 9    gave?  As I understood it, he said he was hit on the left side of his face

10    and that that pushed his head back.

11            MR. SMITH:  I think that's all that's required to be recorded.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Yes.

13            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, this incident is referred to in Schedule

14    A, number 8.

15       Q.   Did you receive any injuries as a result of the slapping or not?

16       A.   At that moment, I felt dizzy, and I had headaches for two or three

17    months after that.  Then I had to go to Gojko to give me tablets that

18    would tranquillise me.  Gojko, who worked in the health centre of the KP

19    Dom, allowed me to do so, and he gave me these tablets that

20    would tranquillise me and that would make the pain go away.

21       Q.   Did you complain to anybody about Mr. Maric's treatment of you?

22       A.   Who?  There is no one to complain to.  There are no complaints.

23    There is no one to complain to.

24       Q.   Why did you not complain to the other guards?

25       A.   It was pointless to complain.  It was all the same.  One was like

Page 1003

 1    all the rest, except for individuals, and these individuals were few and

 2    far between.

 3       Q.   Were any other detainees beaten at KP Dom, as far as you know?

 4       A.   Of course they were.  Everybody had to be kicked in the ass,

 5    begging your pardon.  Or he'd kick you or slap you in the face just a bit,

 6    in passing, at least.

 7       Q.   Sorry.  If we can just go back a few questions.  I spoke to you

 8    about interviews and you said that most people were interviewed at the KP

 9    Dom.  In the main, when were the interviews carried out?  You were there

10    for two and a half years.  When was the most intensive period of

11    interviews, if there was an intensive period?

12       A.   1992.  1992, that's when most of the interviews took place.  They

13    only took place in 1992; afterwards, there weren't any more interviews.

14       Q.   Can you be more specific than that?  In terms of 1992, when did

15    those interviews -- was it the whole of 1992 that the interviews were

16    intense?  Was it the last half or the first half?  Can you clarify or

17    provide more detail?

18       A.   All of this was from the 25th of April, 1992.  The Muslims were

19    arrested before that.  That was the 18th.  Then they were taken into the

20    fields and then they were there for about five or six days.  Then they

21    were transferred around the 20th -- between the 20th and 25th of April.

22    And then finally a real camp was set up where the prison had been, and

23    then the Muslims started coming in in bigger or smaller groups.  They

24    would bring in 10, 20, 30 people.  Every day the number went up.  When the

25    police, the active police, of the KP Dom took over, then the interviews

Page 1004

 1    started every day.  Every day there was questioning.

 2       Q.   When did they start every day?  Was that April, May, June, July?

 3    What month?

 4       A.   In April, immediately in April.  When I came on the 25th of April,

 5    some people were already going in for interviews.  On the 25th of April,

 6    when I was brought into the KP Dom, some were already going for

 7    interviews.  Some came in immediately, as soon as they were brought to the

 8    KP Dom, whereas others went a month later or two months later.  Perhaps

 9    they would spend a month or two there and then be taken for an interview.

10            What the criterion was, I mean, I have no idea, because the

11    criterion was not whether you came earlier or later.  I don't know whether

12    they did it according to the rooms where these people were put up or

13    according to some kind of alphabetical order.  Nobody knows.

14       Q.   You said these interviews, once they commenced, they commenced

15    daily.  Did they continue daily for the rest of 1992, or did they become

16    less regular at some point in time?

17       A.   Of course, every day.  Perhaps they'd skip a day or two, like

18    Saturday and Sunday.  But all of that went on from April 1992 practically

19    until the end of 1992, almost until the end of 1992.  You cannot say

20    exactly the day or the date or even the month when this stopped; nobody

21    can tell you that.  People were just thinking of how they could get more

22    food, how they could get enough food to eat, or how they could get

23    exchanged and get out of there.  Nobody thought about anything else.

24       Q.   When were these interviews conducted; during the day, at night, in

25    the evening?

Page 1005

 1       A.   During the day.  I went two or three times; I went around 10.00 or

 2    11.00 or around lunchtime.

 3       Q.   You mentioned -- I can't recall, actually, your answer, but were

 4    other detainees beaten at the KP Dom, other than yourself?

 5       A.   I was interviewed by Zoran Vladicic.  I don't know whether it was

 6    the first or the second time.  Well, that's not that important.  The room

 7    next to me -- I mean, I heard someone being beaten in that room.  I didn't

 8    know who they were beating, but I heard something.  I heard someone say,

 9    "Now you can see how Zelja administers beatings."  I was petrified.

10            I finished my interview with Zoran.  He called an official to

11    escort me out because you had to be escorted out in front of this small

12    office where the officer on duty was.  I turned around and I looked and I

13    saw Nurko Nisic walking behind me.  Blood was flowing down his face here,

14    on the left-hand side; he had a cut, a bruise.

15            I don't know how I walked downstairs.  My feet became smaller.  I

16    could hardly walk.  I don't know how I got into the room.  I couldn't fall

17    asleep at all; I lay there.  But I don't know what happened.  I didn't

18    dare turn around; I didn't dare look again.  I was afraid to look; I was

19    afraid that what happened to Nurko Nisic would happen to me too.  So I

20    don't know when he came back, whether he came back immediately ...

21       Q.   After seeing Nurko Nisic with the blood flowing down his face, did

22    you see him after that?

23       A.   Yes, I did see him.

24       Q.   Did he explain to you what happened to him?  Did he tell you what

25    happened to him?

Page 1006












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1007

 1       A.   No.  Whoever was taken downstairs and whoever was beaten was not

 2    asked because it was hard to ask people about suffering like that because

 3    that could happen to anyone.  So nobody ever asked anyone about things

 4    like that; only if people would tell you about it on their own.

 5       Q.   Did this occur during the daytime or in the evening?

 6       A.   During the day.

 7            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, this incident is referred to at 5.27 in

 8    the indictment, and the individual is referred to in C-19 on the

 9    Schedule.

10       Q.   You mentioned that you heard some noise coming from another room

11    and you heard someone say, "Now you can see how Zelja administers

12    beatings."

13       A.   Exactly.

14       Q.   Do you know who Zelja is?

15       A.   A worker from Valter Pejic, the company Valter Pejic.  He was an

16    electrician.

17       Q.   Did this Zelja work at KP Dom?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   Did you see the person that you've mentioned as Zelja at KP Dom on

20    that same day that you saw Nurko Nisic with blood flowing down his face?

21       A.   No.  I only heard his voice.

22       Q.   Had you spoken to this Zelja before arriving at KP Dom?  Do you

23    know his voice?

24       A.   He himself said his name, Zelja.  "Zelja," he pronounced it

25    himself.  His last name is Zeljevic, and that's his nickname then, Zelja.

Page 1008

 1    He himself said what he said:  "Now you're going to see how Zelja

 2    administers beatings."

 3       Q.   Did you recognise Zelja's voice?

 4       A. (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Smith, that's going to produce a lot of problems

14    in relation to redactions.  I'm not quite sure whether it's going to make

15    very much sense after it has been redacted.  Might I suggest that you --

16    in fact, probably the whole of that answer will have to be redacted to

17    avoid identifying the witness.  You may like to ask a slightly more

18    precise question as to how he recognised his voice, what was his previous

19    association with him, and not worrying about who worked with him and all

20    the rest of it.

21            MR. SMITH:  Yes.  I would ask that that be redacted.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.  But my concern is that you now get the evidence

23    in in a form that will stay without being redacted.

24            MR. SMITH:

25       Q.   How did you recognise Zelja's voice?

Page 1009

 1       A.   Zelja himself pronounced his name, "Zeljevic," his last name,

 2    while he was beating Nurko Nisic.  I didn't even know who he was beating

 3    there.  But he pronounced his own name, his own surname.  And then when I

 4    was getting out, Nurko got out too, and that's how I know that it was

 5    Nurko whom he was beating.  And I abide by that.

 6            MR. SMITH:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I would just prefer to leave

 7    this topic.  I mean, we can go into it, but I just don't think --

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, I think the only safe thing to do is to redact

 9    the whole of the answer, you see.

10            MR. SMITH:

11       Q.   Witness, we've asked that that answer be redacted in terms of

12    protecting your identity, and that's the reason for it.  You mentioned

13    that --

14            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise.  Perhaps

15    I did not understand very well which question, or rather, which answer

16    from the transcript should be deleted.  Could I please have the page and

17    the line in the transcript because it would make things much easier for

18    me.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Just a moment, I'm just getting it for you.  It's

20    page 54, and the question is at line 8, "And did you recognise Zelja's

21    voice?"  The whole of that answer, that is from lines 9 through to 17, has

22    been redacted.  It means that it will not be in the transcript which is

23    published or in the video which is broadcast with the delay.  The word

24    "deleted" may be inaccurate.  "Redacted" simply means it is not made

25    public.

Page 1010

 1            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I understand

 2    now.

 3            MR. SMITH:

 4       Q.   You mentioned that Nurko Nisic appeared to be beaten at the KP

 5    Dom.  You mentioned that you were assaulted at the KP Dom.  Do you know of

 6    any other detainees being beaten or assaulted at the KP Dom?

 7       A.   Well, of course.  There's not a single person who was not beaten

 8    up.  Some more, some less, others like -- I don't know.  Like Rikalo

 9    Husko, for example, he was beaten up.  He was taken away like many others,

10    but I'm not going to mention their names.

11       Q.   When you state Rikalo Husko, is he also known as Husein Rikalo?

12       A.   Husko Rikalo.  His real name is Husein.  His nickname is Husko.

13       Q.   What do you know about his beating at the KP Dom?  When was he

14    beaten?  Who beat him?  How did it happen?

15       A.   I don't know.  Nobody knows who beat them up.  Well, only they

16    know, of course, who had beaten them, but ...

17       Q.   Well, how do you know that Husein Rikalo was beaten at the KP

18    Dom?  You said he was.  How do you know that?  Did you see it?  Did you

19    hear it from other prisoners?  Did you hear it from other guards?

20       A.   No.  No.  I did not hear about that from guards or anybody else.

21    We just saw him when he was black and blue.  Nobody had to tell you a

22    thing if somebody would be black and blue or all in blood.  There were

23    some cases when we used a regular needle and thread to sew up peoples'

24    wounds because there were some male nurses and doctors amongst us and they

25    used an ordinary needle and thread to sew up peoples' wounds there were

Page 1011

 1    even such cases.

 2            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, this individual is mentioned in Schedule

 3    B-46, and also in Schedule C-21 [Realtime transcript read in error "41"].

 4       Q.   Where did you see Husein Rikalo with his bruises, with his black

 5    and blue bruises?

 6       A.   They passed by my room.  16, 18, 20, 12, from all these rooms,

 7    everybody could see everybody.  Because all the windows faced the

 8    compound, the yard from all the buildings.

 9       Q.   And who is this man?  What are his personal details?  Did he live

10    in Foca?  What job did he have?

11       A.   I know everything.  He worked in Valter Pejic.  He lived in Gornje

12    Polje.  He had an apartment of his own there.  He had two children from

13    two marriages, let me say that straight away.

14       Q.   Is he still alive today, to your knowledge?  Husein Rikalo, is he

15    still alive today?

16       A.   No.  I can guarantee that he is not alive.  Rikalo, a number --

17    well, let's not mention numbers anymore.  But, yes, that's not important

18    but perhaps it is important because it's important for the Court and for

19    all of us.  Let it be known.

20       Q.   When was the last time that you saw Husein Rikalo?

21       A.   July, August.  He disappeared in those two months, and the others,

22    lots, lots and lots of them.  Until the end of 1992, by the end of 1992,

23    the prison had been halved.  Half of the people had disappeared or were

24    exchanged.  Very few got in touch later from some European countries.

25            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, I think there might need to be a

Page 1012

 1    correction to the transcript.  In the transcript, I have mentioned that

 2    this individual Husein Rikalo appears at Schedule C-41, it's actually

 3    Schedule C-21.  It may have been my mistake.

 4            JUDGE HUNT:  It needn't be corrected.  You have corrected it, and

 5    both of them are there and it's very clear what you are now referring to.

 6            MR. SMITH:

 7       Q.   You said that most people were beaten at the KP Dom.  Generally,

 8    how did it occur and where did these beatings occur, as far as you know?

 9       A.   That occurred at the entrance, the entrance into the building

10    where, before, packages, parcels were received for convicts.  There were

11    tables and benches there, and there was only 30 or 40 metres between there

12    and the building where we were.  And you could hear everything, everything

13    resounding, like from moans and cries, and all that.  Like from here where

14    I am and to the other end of this room, of course you can hear everything

15    in this room.  And when we would hear these cries and moans, we would feel

16    the pain, and every one of us would feel as if it were his own pain

17    because we knew that our turn would come as well.

18       Q.   You mentioned that these beatings occurred at the entrance.  Which

19    entrance are you referring to and which building are you referring to?

20       A.   The exit from the compound on the iron gate, right on the

21    left-hand side, below the administrative building.

22       Q.   Did these beatings occur in the compound or did they occur in the

23    building?

24       A.   The building.

25       Q.   How often, how often did you, yourself, hear these moans coming

Page 1013

 1    from this building?  On about how many occasions did you hear it?

 2       A.   A dozen times or so.  You can't hear it always because sometimes

 3    you are in the lavatory or sometimes you fall asleep, and it happened in

 4    the evening hours, after dinner or before the dinner or during the

 5    dinner.

 6       Q.   And what did you do when you heard these beatings, when you heard

 7    these moans?

 8       A.   What did I do?  Your hair stands on end.  You cover your head up,

 9    your ears, so as not to hear, not to see anything.

10       Q.   Were there doctors based at the KP Dom?

11       A.   There was a medical man there, Gojko, but he neither sewed up

12    wounds nor did he give any medicines.  Only 1993 or -- 1993, 1994, only

13    then did we have enough medicines, and if you worked, then you could get

14    anything you wanted, but in 1992, there were none.  And what little there

15    was, was taken out of the hospital.

16       Q.   Were there any Muslim detainee doctors at the KP Dom?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And who were they?  Do you remember their names?

19       A.   I do.  Said Selimovic, a dentist.  He was head of the dental

20    surgery at the KP Dom.  Ibro Carovic, Enver Cemo, they were all nurses,

21    Emir Mandzo, and Cakim Causevic or something, I don't know his name but a

22    Croat, Matovic, or Mate, whatever his last name was, a Croat.  There were

23    about ten or maybe a dozen physicians and nurses and such like.

24       Q.   Were there any people, any Muslim detainees that were interviewed

25    or -- that were interviewed or taken to the administration building that

Page 1014

 1    didn't return to their rooms, they didn't return?

 2       A.   There were, but names can't remember or dates when that happened.

 3    But, of course, there were.

 4       Q.   Now, in 1998, did you supply a list of names of people that you

 5    knew were killed in the KP Dom to the Tribunal?

 6       A.   I did.

 7       Q.   And did you supply that list at your own instigation or on request

 8    by a staff member at the Tribunal?

 9       A.   At my request.

10       Q.   Would you like to look at that list that you supplied the Tribunal

11    to refresh your memory of other people that were killed, that you believed

12    were killed at the KP Dom?

13       A.   I can list them.  I know them by heart.

14       Q.   Other people that you know that were killed at the KP Dom, can you

15    state who they were?

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Before that is done, if there is a list, do the

17    translators have a copy?

18            MR. SMITH:  They do have a copy, Your Honour.

19            Your Honour, perhaps it might be quicker if I -- it's up to you,

20    but if I go through the list, he's supplied a list of about nine names.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Bakrac, it's a matter for you, really.

22    Strictly, he should give it, but if there's no real dispute about what is

23    on the list, it might be quicker if we just have the list.

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said that

25    he could list them by heart so I do not see why does the Prosecutor gloss

Page 1015












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1016

 1    over that if he said that he could list them.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  In other words, you want him to give it by heart

 3    without reference to the document.  Is that what you're saying?

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is what the

 5    witness, himself, said.

 6            JUDGE HUNT:  I'm asking you what your attitude is.  We're probably

 7    spending more time on this than it will take for him to do it by memory,

 8    but if you take the point, then you are entitled to take it and he will

 9    have to give the evidence from memory.

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  It's -- let him do

11    it which ever way he wants to.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, Mr. Smith, you may put the list in, as I

13    understand that final answer.

14            MR. SMITH:  After all of that, Your Honour, I might just start and

15    then when he runs out, I'll put the list to him.

16       Q.   You mentioned that Husein Rikalo has not been seen again?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Can you list the names of the people that you know were killed at

19    KP Dom?

20       A.   Munib Veiz.

21       Q.   Stopping there.  How was he killed?

22       A.   Taken out of the -- taken from the dinner out of the compound.

23    Taken during the dinner and out of the compound.

24       Q.   Did you see this or did you hear it from other prisoners?

25       A.   We saw.  Yes, we saw.

Page 1017

 1       Q.   And when did this occur?

 2       A.   Was it June, July 27th/28th.  I don't know the date.  Can't say

 3    anything about it.

 4       Q.   It's C-58 on the list, Your Honour.  Who else was killed at the KP

 5    Dom?

 6       A.   Halim Konjo.

 7       Q.   And how did he die?

 8       A.   Also taken out from the line and taken to the gate.

 9       Q.   When did this occur?

10       A.   Same time when Munib Veiz.  It's all the same time, all the same

11    date for all of them.

12       Q.   Who else?

13       A.   Salem Bico.

14            MR. SMITH:  C-2, Your Honour.

15       Q.   What happened to him?

16       A.   Also taken out to the line.

17       Q.   Where was this line -- sorry, did you see this or did you hear

18    this from other prisoners?

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Let me just interrupt, Mr. Smith.  I'm not sure that

20    we're getting anywhere with this.  So far, all the witness has said is

21    that they were -- a number of them, all on the same day, were taken from

22    dinner or from the line, whichever you prefer, and taken to the gate.

23            Now, the next question I would think would be:  Did you see

24    anything happen to him?  And if he says yes, you can get it; if not,

25    you -- next question would be:  Did you ever see them again?  That's about

Page 1018

 1    the best you can get from this witness, is it not?

 2            MR. SMITH:  I agree.

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  I mean, the witness has drawn a conclusion, and I can

 4    understand him drawing it, but I think that you have to establish that by

 5    inference in the end, not simply by this witness' own conclusions.

 6            MR. SMITH:  I'll adopt that approach, Your Honour.

 7       Q.   After you saw Bico Salem taken out from the line, did you know

 8    where he was taken?

 9       A.   Towards the exit gate.

10       Q.   Was he taken through the exit gate?

11       A.   Yes.  Everybody had to go through it to get out.

12       Q.   Did you see him again after that?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Have you heard of him being alive since that time?

15       A.   Never.  Nobody ever ...

16       Q.   After Mr. Bico Salem was taken through the entrance, did you hear

17    anything else?  Did you hear anything coming from that building?

18       A.   Yes.  We heard from the bridge shots, and like when you throw sand

19    into the river.

20       Q.   How long after he had gone through that exit did you hear shots?

21       A.   Two or three minutes.

22       Q.   Just going back to Munib Veiz, did you see him go through the exit

23    into that building?

24       A.   We did, yes.  Yes.

25       Q.   Did you hear anything after he had passed through the exit?

Page 1019

 1       A.   We did, yes, because, later on, a man -- a few hours later, the

 2    man went there.  They took one out; I can't mention his name -- or I can

 3    mention him.  There is nothing disputable.  But he went there with a hook

 4    if he floated near the bank.  It is Mujo Dudic who worked for the

 5    administration, a cleaner.  He cleaned the room of Mr. Savo Todovic and

 6    Mitar Rasevic's room.

 7       Q.   Did you hear any beating after Munib Veiz had gone into that

 8    building or not?  Is it just from what this cleaner told you?

 9       A.   No, one could hear.  They were taking them to the bridge, killing

10    them on the bridge, and then throwing them into the water.  And then we

11    heard this one, when he came and when he pushed him away from the banks so

12    that he would be taken away by the Drina.  When I entered the room, a man

13    said that he was found in Gorazde.

14       Q.   Who was this man?

15       A.   Munib Veiz.

16       Q.   Who was the man who mentioned he was found in Gorazde?

17       A.   Munib Veiz was found there.

18       Q.   Who else do you know was killed at the KP Dom?

19       A.   Mesa Sofradzija.  They all left then; they all left in one of

20    those two or three days.  They were all taken out of the line and through

21    the gate, and not one of them ever returned or turned up.

22       Q.   Did you see -- Mesa Sofradzija, did you see him go into the

23    building?

24       A.   Yes, we did.  We saw them all.  That evening they all disappeared;

25    all those whom I listed and whom I will list, not one of them came back to

Page 1020

 1    the dormitories where they were before.

 2       Q.   Have you heard of Mesa Sofradzija being alive today?

 3       A.   No.

 4       Q.   Who else do you believe was killed at KP Dom?

 5       A.   Mustafa Kuloglija.

 6       Q.   When was the last time you saw him?

 7       A.   Also when he went through the gate.

 8       Q.   Have you heard of him being alive today?

 9       A.   No, neither heard, nor is he alive.

10       Q.   Anyone else that you believe to have been killed at the KP Dom,

11    that you know?

12       A.   Murat Crneta.

13       Q.   When was the last time you saw him?

14       A.   That same day when they went, all those who disappeared through

15    the gate.

16       Q.   Do you know of him being alive today?

17       A.   No.

18       Q.   Who else do you believe to have been killed at KP Dom?

19       A.   I can't remember names.

20            MR. SMITH:  I'd now ask that the witness be shown the list he drew

21    up.  It's identified as Prosecution 312.

22       Q.   Looking at that list in front of you in relation to names of

23    people killed at KP Dom, which you sent to the Tribunal in 1998, are there

24    any other names on that list?  In fact, the last three names, which

25    haven't been mentioned, do they refresh your memory as to people who were

Page 1021

 1    killed -- you believe to have been killed at the KP Dom?

 2       A.   Not these two which I have before me.  The two on top, no.  Only

 3    Rasim Kajgana.

 4       Q.   Rasim Kajgana, when was the last time you saw him?

 5       A.   He was with them too.

 6       Q.   When he was taken into the building, did you hear anything after

 7    that?

 8       A.   Not about him, like all the others, like all the others whose turn

 9    it was.

10       Q.   Uzejr Cankusic.

11       A.   When his house was attacked, he was wounded, he was wounded

12    himself, and he was brought to the dorm.  But what would he do there?

13    They took him to the hospital and he never came back.

14       Q.   And Salko Mandzo.

15       A.   This one too, yes, Salko, he also left with them.

16            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, I've finished that list now.  Perhaps it

17    would be time to break.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Okay.  We'll resume at 2.30.

19                          --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.48 p.m.







Page 1022

 1                          --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Smith.

 3            MR. SMITH:

 4       Q.   Witness, before the break, you mentioned a Salko, I asked you a

 5    question about Salko Mandzo and you answered, "And this one too.  Salko,

 6    he also left with them."  Who were you referring to, he left with who?

 7       A.   Yes.  All of those who were mentioned, they all went together.

 8       Q.   And who is Salko Mandzo?  Give some brief detail about his

 9    background.  What job did he have?  Where did he live?

10       A.   He lived in Donje Polje.  He worked in Maglic in the furniture

11    factory.

12       Q.   Did you ever see Salko Mandzo again after he went through that

13    exit into the administration building?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   You mentioned a number of individuals that went through the exit

16    into that administration building.  Did you hear any beatings after those

17    people had gone into the building?

18       A.   No.  I did not hear any beatings.  We just heard a vehicle ignited

19    and it left in front of the Dom.

20       Q.   And did you hear where that vehicle went?

21       A.   Went towards the bridge.  Towards town, up there.

22       Q.   And did you hear anything after that, after it went towards the

23    bridge?

24       A.   No.

25       Q.   You mentioned earlier that most of the detainees at the KP Dom

Page 1023

 1    were beaten, and you also mentioned on about a dozen occasions you could

 2    hear moans and the sounds of beatings coming from the administration

 3    building.  How did this knowledge of the beatings and hearing the

 4    beatings, how did that affect you whilst you were at KP Dom during the

 5    time that it was occurring?

 6       A.   It is too terrible to be described.  At some moments, you'd feel

 7    your blood freeze because you'd think that what was happening to these

 8    others who were being taken out of the KP Dom and never returning could

 9    actually happen to you too.

10       Q.   Did the Red Cross ever visit you at the KP Dom?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   About how many times did they visit you?

13       A.   I don't know exactly.  I think we were registered in 1992, 1993 --

14    1993.  Sometime in August, I think they came for the first time.  That's

15    like a year and a half.  When I got this paper from the International Red

16    Cross, we had been registered for some three or four months in 1992.

17       Q.   After you were released from KP Dom in October 1994, did you

18    receive a certificate from the Red Cross indicating the dates that you

19    were detained at the KP Dom?

20       A.   Yes, from the International Red Cross, I got that, and I also got

21    it from this international commission, this commission of

22    Bosnia-Herzegovina.  From Hamed Masovic [phoen], I got this paper when

23    they registered us.  Under this same number, we have this little card, and

24    on this card, there is like this little number which is like a code, and

25    that has to do with the International Red Cross also.  Whether I was

Page 1024

 1    detained under such and such a number, you see, so that number is on that

 2    little card.

 3            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, I'd ask the witness be shown Prosecution

 4    identification number 315 and 313 and the two translations, please.  If

 5    315 could be shown first.

 6       Q.   Witness, looking at the document marked 315 --

 7            JUDGE HUNT:  It should not go on the ELMO because it's got his

 8    name on it.  Thank you.

 9            MR. SMITH:

10       Q.   Looking at the document number 315, the Red Cross certificate, is

11    that the certificate that was given to you on your release?

12       A.   Yes.  That's what I got afterwards.  After 10 or 15 days, from the

13    International Red Cross from Zagreb, this is this paper with this seal and

14    this is what I got from this commission of ours in Sarajevo when I was

15    exchanged.  Yes, that's the same thing.

16       Q.   And the certificate that you are referring to, the one that you

17    got from the commission in Sarajevo is marked 313 at the top right-hand

18    corner; is that right?

19       A.   Yes.  Yes.

20            MR. SMITH:  Your Honour, I'd ask to tender those two certificates

21    and the translation which is 313A.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

23            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be exhibits P315, 313 and

25    313A.  All of them will be under seal.

Page 1025

 1            MR. SMITH:

 2       Q.   Witness, you were in custody at the KP Dom from the 25th of April,

 3    1992, and you were released on the 6th of October, 1994.  For that two and

 4    a half years of detention at the KP Dom, how has that affected you

 5    psychologically?  How has that affected you, how you view life, how you

 6    feel and how you live today?

 7       A.   How I feel?  First of all, I've lost my health.  Secondly, I've

 8    lost 30 or 40 per cent of my memory.  Thirdly, what can I say?  I lost

 9    everything I had:  My house, my property, my apartment, the apartment I

10    had.  What could I say?

11            MR. SMITH:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

13            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all I wish to

14    apologise to you and to give an explanation because sometimes, or quite

15    often, I repeat what I have said.  And I forget that the interpretation

16    comes in a bit later.  I look at the Trial Chamber and I have the feeling

17    that what I said has not come across, but I'll try to prevent it from

18    happening again.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  I can assure you, Mr. Bakrac, we listen to everything

20    you say with interest.  We just don't like hearing it several times.  So

21    just wait and pause after you've said it the first time, let us hear the

22    interpretation, and then we'll get on with it.  But thank you for the

23    apology.

24                          Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

25       Q.   First of all, I would like to introduce myself to the witness.

Page 1026

 1    Good afternoon, I am Mihajlo Bakrac, attorney at law.  I am one of the

 2    Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

 3            Before the break, you talked about when you saw the accused, you

 4    said you first saw him with a delegation as he was going to the furniture

 5    factory.  Can you tell us when this happened?

 6       A.   In 1992.  I cannot give you the exact date.

 7       Q.   Could you give me the approximate month?

 8       A.   No.

 9       Q.   After that, you say the last time you saw the warden was that

10    Ekrem Zekovic ran away?

11       A.   Exactly.

12       Q.   Can you tell us when this happened?

13       A.   No.

14       Q.   Can you approximately remember the year?

15       A.   No, I cannot remember.  We did not think about that then.  We did

16    not think about the dates then.  We just wondered what would happen to

17    us.  That's the only thing we thought about.

18            I can probably say that it was in 1994, 1993, perhaps.  The end of

19    1993, beginning of 1994.  I don't want to say anything specific because I

20    cannot tell you things I'm not sure about.

21       Q.   Was it strange to you that at the moment when the incident with

22    Ekrem Zekovic occurred, the warden of the KP Dom was just standing there

23    and Savo Todovic was addressing you, Savo Todovic was making a speech to

24    you?

25       A.   Savo Todovic spoke to us all the time.  I don't know what the

Page 1027

 1    reason was, whether Mr. Mico Krnojelac let Savo take care of us or whether

 2    it was Mr. Krnojelac who was taking care of things.

 3       Q.   Thank you.  On the 29th of October, 1998, did you make a statement

 4    to the investigators of the OTP?

 5       A.   Yes, I did.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak into the

 7    microphone.

 8            JUDGE HUNT:  Just a moment.  Could you bring your chair up a

 9    little bit closer to the microphones because the interpreters are having

10    difficulty hearing you.  Thank you.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's fine.  Yes.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   Do you remember having said in that statement that Savo Todovic

14    was the most powerful man at the KP Dom?

15       A.   The most powerful?  For us he was the most powerful.  He gave us

16    orders as to what we were supposed to do.  But who gave him orders, we

17    thought it was the warden of the KP Dom who gave him orders for that.

18       Q.   I'm going to read your sentence:  "Although he was not warden of

19    the prison, he was the most powerful person there."

20       A.   That is correct, the most powerful.  Most probably Mico Krnojelac

21    would leave the orders and carrying them out to him.  Perhaps Mr. Mico

22    Krnojelac didn't want to be involved in such matters.  I saw him only once

23    or twice after that.  I went to cut grass at Dobricava, Niko, Coprata

24    Slatine [phoen].  Savo would come to see us; Mr. Mico never did.  I would

25    also fertilise the land, harvest corn at the farm.  We did all sorts of

Page 1028

 1    things.  But I personally never saw Mr. Mico Krnojelac at the farm.

 2       Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you stated that Savo Todovic, when

 3    he made this speech to you, said that he would cut your meals by a third

 4    and forbid you to go out?

 5       A.   Yes, that is true.  Only the farm worked and the metal shop

 6    worked, and as the days went by, he started letting people -- some people,

 7    not everybody the way he did before, but he let some people work.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that on the 21st of October, 1994 you

 9    gave a statement at the Security Service Centre in Sarajevo?

10       A.   Yes, that's right.

11       Q.   In that statement, when you mentioned the Zekovic incident, you

12    did not mention at all that Krnojelac was present when Savo Todovic was

13    making his speech.

14       A.   Well, possibly I didn't then.  At that time, it was important to

15    get out, and when you got out, you didn't even know where you were,

16    whether you were in heaven or on earth.  It was just important to

17    recuperate and to come to, sort of.

18       Q.   Thank you.  You said that from October 1993 you went to work in

19    the mine in Miljevina.  Can you agree with me if I say that you were among

20    the first persons who went to work in the mine in Miljevina?

21       A.   No.  The first persons who went to work in the mine, that was in

22    1992, those were the engineering and mining people.  I don't know.  They

23    were all returned from there because they were afraid that these guys

24    would escape.  Then all of that was stopped altogether and then it

25    continued.

Page 1029












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 1030

 1       Q.   Can you mention the names of these persons?

 2       A.   No, no.  One, I could mention one, but one doesn't really mean

 3    much to you.  It was a long time ago.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me whether you know, whether you ever

 5    made any statements in this sense, who was in charge of exchanges in the

 6    KP Dom?

 7       A.   According to some information, we were told that it was Boro

 8    Ivanovic.  Perhaps that was correct; perhaps that was not correct.

 9    Vojislav Maksimovic, Petko Cancar.

10       Q.   Thank you.  We already talked about a statement that you gave to

11    the investigators of the OTP.  Do you remember having said to the

12    investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor that you were in Room 20

13    after having stayed in Room 18?

14       A.   Well, it's possible that I made this permutation.  I went to 16

15    and to 20, and then from 20 to 18.

16       Q.   Can you recall when you were in Room 20, in which period?

17       A.   That was the month of -- no, it was after seven months.

18       Q.   The month of October?

19       A.   The month of October, that's when I was in Room 20.

20       Q.   That is to say that, from October onwards, you were in Room 20.

21       A.   Yes, but I was not in Room 20 for a long time.  A month or two.  I

22    don't know.  Nobody kept such records as to how long you would be in one

23    room and how long you would be in another room.

24       Q.   Do you remember having said to the investigators of the OTP that

25    when you were in Room 20, Husko Rikalo was taken out?

Page 1031

 1       A.   No.  In Room 20?  No, no.  He was taken out when I was in number

 2    16.  Possibly I made a mistake.

 3       Q.   In order to be as clear as possible, because of what we might do

 4    after this, is it correct that you said that you were in Room 20 when

 5    Husko Rikalo was taken out?

 6       A.   No, I was not in Room 20.  I was in Room 16, not Room 20.

 7       Q.   Is it necessary for me to read your statement?  And if it is not

 8    necessary, what would your comment be?  Why did you say that you were in

 9    Room 20 then?

10       A.   Well, you can read it out.  No problem with that.

11            MR. SMITH:  I object, Your Honour.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   "I remember --"

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Mr. Smith.

15            MR. SMITH:  The witness has said he possibly made a mistake.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  Well, I realise that, and what weight can be given to

17    this almost completely escapes me.  But the Defence is entitled to show

18    he's made an inconsistent statement and to have it shown firmly.

19            So you proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please quote the page that he is

21    quoting from.

22            JUDGE HUNT:  Did you get that message from the interpreter,

23    Mr. Bakrac?

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.  Thank you.

25       Q.   "I remember that once when I was in Room 20 Husko Rikalo was taken

Page 1032

 1    out."

 2       A.   Well, yes, possibly I could have made a mistake, but what can I

 3    say now?  I signed that statement, the one I gave, and if I signed it, I

 4    have to stand by it.  That is only natural.

 5       Q.   Is it correct that this is the first time today that you stated

 6    this, and that you did not say this in the Centre for Security in Sarajevo

 7    or to the investigators of the OTP that you heard a certain Zelja say what

 8    you said before the break - I don't want to repeat it again - and that you

 9    saw Muniz Veib --

10       A.   Munib Veiz.

11       Q.   All right.  Munib Veiz, that he got out of the office --

12       A.   Nurko Nisic?

13       Q.   Yes, Nurko Nisic.

14       A.   Yes, exactly.  I saw it with my own eyes.  Zoran Vladicic could be

15    mine witness.  Zoran Vladicic could be my witness.  I'll be his witness;

16    he'll be mine.  We stood at the door together when he walked out of the

17    room, covered with blood.  I did not say it, but --

18       Q.   I'm going to read to you now exactly what you said at the Security

19    Centre in Sarajevo.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  The interpreters do want you to give them the page

21    number, please.

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is identification number ID

23    311.  In B/C/S, it is page 4, paragraph 2, somewhere around the middle of

24    the page.

25       Q.   "Nurko Nisic from Foca, Deputy Commander of the Public Security

Page 1033

 1    Station in Foca, was taken out in such a way and every time returned

 2    bloody from the beatings."

 3       A.   Exactly.

 4       Q.   "I saw this through the window of my room, and I heard from the

 5    prisoners that he was beaten by a certain Zelja, aged about 35,

 6    dark-haired, earlier employed in the Elektrodistribucija," the power

 7    supply.

 8       A.   Exactly, that's exactly the way it was.  "Nurko Nisic, the first

 9    time when I saw him all bloody.  I saw him with my own eyes.  I can

10    confirm that through Zoran Vladicic if he wants to admit to that as well.

11    He was not taken out only once, he was taken every five or ten days until

12    he left the compound, and after that he never returned."

13       Q.   Sir, I shall repeat a part of this sentence again.  "I heard from

14    the prisoners that he was beaten by a certain Zelja."

15       A.   I heard it when I was being questioned by Zoran Vladicic, I heard

16    his words.  "Now you're going to see how Zelja administers beatings."  At

17    that moment, I did not know who he was beating.  When I finished my

18    interview with Zoran Vladicic, I signed the statement and I went into the

19    hallway through the door and then Nurko Nisic got out from the left

20    arcade, there was blood flowing down his face, and only then I realised

21    that it was Zelja beating Nurko Nisic.

22       Q.   You said that you realised only then.  When did you realise that?

23       A.   When I got out into the hall.  Nobody had to tell me after that.

24    As soon as he was going there every five or ten days, he was being taken

25    out to the administrative building every five or ten days when he came in

Page 1034

 1    all bloody and black and blue.  Gentlemen, let me apologise for having to

 2    say this:  Nurko Nisic could not even walk because he was beaten on the

 3    testicles, on the head.  And then when he would get a bit better, then he

 4    would be taken out and beaten.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Just a moment.  I understand that you are very

 6    involved in all of this, but if you could speak just a little more

 7    slowly.  The translators are having trouble keeping up with you.

 8            Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

 9            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

10       Q.   Still, I do not know what is correct out of the two.  Did you hear

11    from the prisoner that he was beaten by Zelja or what you said today; is

12    that correct?

13       A.   What I said today is correct and I confirm that and I stand by it,

14    and if I have to I'm going to sign a document once again.  Let the Court

15    give me any kind of document and I'm going to sign it and I'm going to

16    confirm that Zelja beat him, and that I saw him after that with my very

17    own eyes.

18       Q.   Thank you.  Do you know if Zelja was a military policeman at the

19    time, or a military, or what was he at the time when that went on?  Is it

20    true that before the break you said that you were interviewed by Inspector

21    Vladicic when you went for interview the third time?

22       A.   [No translation].

23            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes.

24            MR. SMITH:  Sorry, Your Honour, I believe the answer wasn't

25    translated to the question that was given.

Page 1035

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  What do you say the answer was?

 2            MR. SMITH:  I, as you know --

 3            JUDGE HUNT:  Did you hear an answer, Mr. Bakrac?

 4            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I heard that he said, "I don't know."

 5       Q.   So you say that, on the third occasion, you were interviewed by

 6    Inspector Vladicic and you are confirming that.  Do you remember that, on

 7    page four of your statement to the Prosecutor, you said that on the third

 8    occasion, you were interviewed by somebody you did not know?

 9       A.   No.  I said there was this tall, dark, around 35, slim, and that

10    other inspector, Koprivica, they were together.

11       Q.   Thank you.  In addition to the pistol that you said was found at

12    your place, did you have any other weapon?

13       A.   No.  No.  Nothing.  I did not have anything else.

14       Q.   Did you participate in the fighting between the 18th [as

15    interpreted] and the 16th of April?

16       A.   No, I did not.  I didn't want to.  Had I wanted to, I would have

17    either been dead by now or wouldn't be here today.

18            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour.  In the

19    transcript, perhaps it was my mistake, it says 18th to the 16th, but what

20    I meant was the 8th to the 16th.

21            JUDGE HUNT:  In case there was some error, do you think you should

22    ask it again so that the dates are clear?  I thought at the time that you

23    must have been saying the 8th and it was just misinterpreted, but it might

24    be safer, if you want to take the point clearly, to ask it of him again.

25            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Page 1036

 1       Q.   Is it true that between the 8th until the 17th of April, you took

 2    part in the fighting?

 3       A.   No, and had I participated there, I wouldn't be here because I

 4    would be either dead or living somewhere in Bosnia.

 5       Q.   I shall now read to you a part of the statement and can you

 6    confirm that you gave it to the Sarajevo Security Service. "Between the

 7    8th and the 17th April, I joined a smaller unit which was offering

 8    resistance to the aggressor from the localities of Sahovac and Sistet."

 9    Yes or no about that.

10            JUDGE HUNT:  There are two things.  First, you didn't give the

11    page number, and the second you read it at the rate of knots.  It's very

12    easy when you are reading something to speed up, but it's very hard on the

13    interpreters.

14            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.  It is page

15    2, ID-311, third paragraph, again, somewhere in the middle of the page and

16    that is how the sentence begins.

17       Q.  "In the period between the 8th and the 17th of April, I joined a

18    smaller unit which offered resistance to the aggressor from the localities

19    of Sahovac and Sistet."

20       A.   Sukovac.

21       Q.   Sahovac, that is what it says here, and Sistet.

22       A.   I joined with the women and the children and the elderly.  I did

23    not join the combatants or the army or carry a rifle because I was taken

24    for interviews two or three times and I was on -- I wasn't on any list.

25    To this day, I'm not on any list as a person who had a weapon.  Because

Page 1037

 1    those who had weapons, Zoran Vladicic showed me the list with all the

 2    names of people who had some kind of weapons.  Had I had such a weapon,

 3    had I carried such a weapon, I suppose I would have been on that list and

 4    then would not have been here, so that is my case.

 5            I did not really read it very thoroughly when I gave this

 6    statement in Sarajevo and there are some errors.  There is yet another

 7    error in this text, perhaps you will find it, but I never carried a rifle

 8    and I stand by what I say.  It is my mistake that I signed this without

 9    reading it beforehand, but ...

10            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

11            I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your Honours.

12            JUDGE HUNT:  Re-examination, Mr. Smith.

13            MR. SMITH:  No, Your Honour.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you, sir -- I'm sorry.  Thank you very much for

15    giving evidence.  You may leave but just wait until the blinds are pulled

16    down so that you won't be seen from the public area.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, before the next witness comes

20    in, I have to inform the Court about the following:  During the lunch

21    break, I was informed that this witness wants, in addition to the already

22    granted pseudonym and image alteration, he requests voice alteration.

23            I spoke with him then, and he said that he was under the

24    impression that he would have both, and if he did not request it, it was

25    his mistake.  His problem is that he was -- is it now -- are we in open

Page 1038

 1    session?  I would then request to go into private session.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Private session.

 3                          [Private session]

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10    (redacted)

11    (redacted)

12    (redacted)

13    (redacted)

14    (redacted)

15    (redacted)

16    (redacted)

17    (redacted)

18    (redacted)

19    (redacted)

20    (redacted)

21    (redacted)

22    (redacted)

23    (redacted)

24    (redacted)

25    (redacted)

Page 1039

 1    (redacted)

 2    (redacted)

 3    (redacted)

 4    (redacted)

 5    (redacted)

 6    (redacted)

 7    (redacted)

 8    (redacted)

 9    (redacted)

10                          --- Recess taken at 3.10 p.m.

11                          --- On resuming at 3.15 p.m.

12                          [Open session]

13            JUDGE HUNT:  We are now back in public session.

14            Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff -- sorry.

15            Would you take the solemn declaration, please, sir.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                          WITNESS:  WITNESS FWS-66

19                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

20            JUDGE HUNT:  Sit down, please.

21                          Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

22       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

23       A.   Good afternoon.

24       Q.   Witness, you have been granted the requests you had in relation to

25    your security, so we have to avoid mentioning your name.  In these

Page 1040

 1    proceedings, you have the number 66.  If you now look at the piece of

 2    paper in front of you, the name under number 66, is that your name?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   The date under your name, is that your birthday?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   The name under your birthday, is that your brother's name?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   So, Witness, when you wish to refer to your brother, do not

 9    mention his name, just say "my brother."  And there are also three more

10    names on this list.  Whenever you want to mention these names, please do

11    not say the names but say the number.

12            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to

13    enter this document into evidence.

14            JUDGE HUNT:  Mr. Bakrac, I won't ask you every time about this.

15    If you do object to any of them, let me know.  Is that all right if I

16    proceed on that basis?

17            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Yes, it is quite

18    all right.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit P401, and it shall

20    be under seal.

21            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22       Q.   Witness, what is your ethnicity?

23       A.   Bosniak Muslim.

24       Q.   Where were you born?

25       A.   Foca.

Page 1041

 1       Q.   Are you married?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Do you have children; and if so, how many?

 4       A.   Yes; two.

 5       Q.   Where did you live before the war; in which town and in which part

 6    of the town?

 7       A.   In the centre of Foca.

 8       Q.   How many inhabitants lived in Foca before the war?

 9       A.   There were 40.000 in the municipality as such; 40.513 was the

10    population of the municipality of Foca, according to the last census.

11       Q.   What was the ethnic composition of these inhabitants?

12       A.   According to the last census, is that what you mean?

13       Q.   Yes, and the ethnic composition.

14       A.   Yes.  Well, it was 51 to 52 were Bosniaks; about 46 were Serbs;

15    and others, the rest, that is, Croats and other minorities.

16       Q.   To which region of Bosnia did Foca belong?  Did it have a special

17    name, this region?

18       A.   It was at the time called the Upper Drina region.

19       Q.   What did this include; which municipalities?

20       A.   That region, it incorporated Foca, Gorazde, Rudo, Visegrad,

21    Rogatici, and Cajnice.

22       Q.   Was Foca the biggest town in this Gornji Podrinje?

23       A.   In terms of the population number, yes.

24       Q.   Was it a cultural centre of the region?

25       A.   Well, it was Gorazde largely.

Page 1042

 1       Q.   Foca, before the war, was it a centre of Muslim culture in Bosnia

 2    and Herzegovina?

 3       A.   Yes, yes, it was.

 4       Q.   What were the buildings belonging to this Muslim culture?

 5       A.   Well, to begin with, it was the so-called Prijeka Carsija from the

 6    Turkish rule, Turkish era, but there were eleven other mosques in the town

 7    too.

 8       Q.   What was the oldest mosque?

 9       A.   Aladza mosque.

10       Q.   How old was it?

11       A.   Well, it was built around 1500, but I wouldn't know exactly;

12    1500-something.

13       Q.   Was it a well-known mosque in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Where exactly did you live in Foca?  Can you specify maybe the

16    blocks?  Did they have a special name in the area where you lived?

17       A.   At first I lived in Donje Polje, and then in the centre.

18       Q.   When you lived in the centre, did your region have a particular

19    name?

20       A.   Centre, centre, that's what it was called.  The centre

21    neighbourhood community.  My family house was in Donje Polje.

22       Q.   What was your profession before the war?

23       A.   Well, at first I worked as a teacher in a school, and then I went

24    to serve the army.  After that, in the municipal department of the

25    Territorial Defence, that's where I worked, and then in the municipal

Page 1043

 1    committee of the League of Communists.

 2       Q.   Witness, I will ask you now several specifics about your position

 3    in the institutions you just mentioned, but I would like you not to

 4    mention the exact position you had; rather, refer to, let's say,

 5    "management" or "high-ranking" or something like that, but not your

 6    particular position.

 7       A.   I was in the staff of the Territorial Defence.  And you don't want

 8    me to mention the place, do you?

 9       Q.   I would like to know from you:  While you were in the TO, did you

10    have a rank?

11       A.   Yes; captain.

12       Q.   When did you have a function in the TO; in which years?

13       A.   From 1976 until 1980.

14       Q.   In your --

15       A.   Professionally, I mean.  I was paid for that work.

16       Q.   Yes.  Did you have a rather high rank in the TO staff?

17       A.   Well, you want me to say what I was?

18       Q.   No.  Don't say what it was, just answer yes or no.  I just asked

19    you if you had a rather high rank within the TO staff.

20       A.   Rather high.

21       Q.   In your capacity in the TO, did you ever meet the accused,

22    Mr. Krnojelac?

23       A.   Yes, and I knew him before too.

24       Q.   Did he have a rank?

25       A.   Yes; captain first class.

Page 1044

 1       Q.   Was this a higher rank than you had?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   What exactly did he do in the TO?  What was his position?

 4       A.   He was the commander of the TO detachment under the combat order.

 5       Q.   Did you meet him during your time in the TO, during, for instance,

 6    trainings?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   When you met, did you talk together?  Did you spend time

 9    together?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   You said that you were in the TO till 1980.  Did he continue to be

12    active in the TO?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   When did you meet him last at such trainings?

15       A.   Well, as I was also, for quite a long time, on the wartime

16    assignment, even when I changed my job, I attended the military drills,

17    until around 1976.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  Can you just wait a moment?

19       A.   1986, excuse me.  1986.

20            JUDGE HUNT:  We seem to be getting both the witness' voice in the

21    original language and the translation at the same time.  I don't know

22    whether this is because of the voice distortion, but if there is something

23    to be turned off, I myself would be very grateful.

24            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Sorry, Your Honour, I do not have this

25    problem.

Page 1045

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  You're lucky.  But the witness' own voice is drowning

 2    out most of the translation for me.

 3            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  But I would not know how to solve this

 4    problem.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  I think I've just been told how to.  I've just used

 6    the volume control for the remote witness.  He isn't very remote, but

 7    apparently that's the one that it comes in on.  Thank you.

 8            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 9       Q.   Witness, you said you had the last training together in 1986.  Do

10    you know if Mr. Krnojelac continued to be involved in the TO until the war

11    started?

12       A.   Afterwards, I don't know.  I believe so.

13       Q.   What makes you believe that?

14       A.   Well, I did not hear about his being replaced.

15       Q.   Before the war, where did you work?  And please have in mind not

16    to mention exactly your position.

17       A.   In the municipal committee of the League of Communists, the then

18    municipal committee.

19       Q.   And before the war, did you join any of the new parties?

20       A.   No, I continued as a member of that party.

21       Q.   So does that mean when the multi-party system started, your party

22    still functioned and remained as a party and you stayed in there, is

23    that?

24       A.   Yes, until the elections, I kept that particular job, I held that

25    job.  And after the elections, I continued in that party.

Page 1046

 1       Q.   The party you were in before, before the multi-party system

 2    started, was it a big party?  Was it a party with a mixed ethnic

 3    background?

 4       A.   Yes, indeed.  It was the only party in the former Yugoslavia, the

 5    main party.  And we were all in it, the majority.

 6       Q.   You are smiling at Mr. Krnojelac.  This was actually also my next

 7    question.  Was Mr. Krnojelac also in this party and were you actually

 8    together on the board?

 9       A.   Yes.  He was a member, but we were not together.  He was with the

10    party organisation in the school in which he worked, and in the school,

11    there was a party organisation.

12       Q.   In addition to the -- knowing him from the TO and knowing him from

13    the communist party, did you know him privately and did you socialise with

14    him?

15       A.   Well, we were not friends, but we used to meet.

16       Q.   You are looking at the accused, Mr. Krnojelac.  When you speak

17    about Mr. Krnojelac, you are referring to the accused in this courtroom,

18    isn't it?

19       A.   Yes.

20            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, an objection perhaps of

21    a principle nature.  "You look at Mr. Krnojelac," and then "is the accused

22    here," so the Prosecutor has already answered.  The question is the

23    answer.  "You are looking at Mr. Krnojelac."

24       A.   I knew him personally.

25            JUDGE HUNT:  I think that is so, but it is very clear that he has

Page 1047

 1    been looking at the accused and calling him Mr. Krnojelac throughout the

 2    whole of his evidence.  So we have no problem that it is the accused to

 3    whom he is referring.  I don't think you need to ask any further questions

 4    about that.

 5            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I was also only

 6    referring to them both looking at each other.

 7       Q.   Do you know if he was married and if he had children?

 8       A.   Yes.  He was married.  He had four children.

 9       Q.   Four what children; four sons or daughters, or both?

10       A.   Four sons.

11       Q.   Do you know the names of the sons?

12       A.   I know the name of one of them; Bozidar.  I don't know the others'

13    names.  I can't remember.

14       Q.   And this Bozidar, was he the oldest, the youngest, or in between?

15       A.   I don't know.

16       Q.   How were the interethnic relations before the war?  I'm referring

17    to Foca only.

18       A.   You mean just before the war broke out or before the war?

19       Q.   Before the war, let's say 1990, something like this.

20       A.   Well, interethnic relations were fine until the multi-party

21    elections occurred.  We were all together.  We worked together.  We

22    socialised.

23       Q.   And when the multi-party system started, how did this change and

24    why?

25       A.   Then, people started splitting up these two sides, at least in

Page 1048

 1    Foca.  Socialising stopped.  Restaurants were divided.  Affairs started in

 2    Foca like the Focatrans affair.  Until the war broke out -- by the time

 3    the war broke out, everything was divided.

 4       Q.   Can you tell me the main political parties that influenced people

 5    before the war?

 6       A.   The SDA and the SDS, the leading parties.

 7       Q.   The SDA, what did it stand for?  Did you ever attend a rally and

 8    can you tell us?

 9       A.   I did not attend rallies because I did not belong there.  I

10    remained in the SDP party, and this other one was practically mono-ethnic,

11    representing Bosniaks only.

12       Q.   And when you say "Bosniaks", you mean Muslims, isn't it?

13       A.   Yes.  Yes.

14       Q.   Although you did not attend the rally of the SDA, did you

15    nevertheless hear what their motto was or what they were focussing on?

16       A.   At a big rally that was held at the conference of the Cehotina and

17    the Drina rivers, their motto was that the Drina will no longer flow

18    bloody, and that is the motto under which this rally was held.  They were

19    actually referring to the slaughters that took place in 1941 and in 1942

20    in Foca.

21       Q.   What was the motto of the SDS?

22       A.   As far as I read it then, wherever there was a Serb house, that

23    was Serb land, and also wherever there was a Serb grave.  And that that's

24    the way it would be.

25       Q.   What did the SDS politicians, what did they say about Muslims and

Page 1049

 1    Croats?

 2       A.   First of all, this big rally, there were some representatives of

 3    the Croat people and from the leadership of the SDS.  The SDA already then

 4    linked its flags with the HDZ, meaning that they would be more inclined

 5    towards Croatia than towards Serbia although there were not many Croats

 6    there, because we were almost at the border with Serbia and we had more

 7    contact with Serbia than with Croatia.

 8       Q.   How did the SDS party and their politicians react to this?

 9       A.   Are you talking about this rally and all of that?

10       Q.   I'm talking generally about the rally and about the politicians,

11    the SDS politicians.  How did they react to this?

12       A.   Well, probably on the basis of this SDA rally, in response to

13    that, they organised a rally at the stadium in Foca and another one at the

14    school centre in the amphitheatre.

15       Q.   During this rally, were there ever threats made against the other

16    ethnic groups?

17       A.   Yes.  I heard that they were made and graffiti appeared on

18    different buildings and institutions, saying "This is Serbia," et cetera.

19       Q.   But were threats made against Muslims or Croats and, if so, what

20    was threatened?

21       A.   As far as I heard then, these were threats that a people would be

22    exterminated unless they joined Serbia.

23       Q.   Who made those threats?  Can you recall anyone in particular?

24       A.   I learnt about all of this from the press, from the newspapers,

25    and from other people.  I was not at these rallies, but this was said by

Page 1050

 1    the leading people of the SDS, Maksimovic, Ostojic, Karadzic, Plavsic,

 2    Kilibarda and the others.

 3       Q.   This division among these people and the threats, how did it make

 4    you feel?

 5       A.   Awful.  The Bosniak people lived in great fear because it was

 6    noticed that weapons were being distributed and placed on all heights

 7    around Foca, stating that this was because of military exercises.

 8       Q.   You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was together with you in the

 9    communist party.  Did he remain in the communist party?  Did you observe

10    him?

11       A.   No.  He did not remain there, because I left lists in my office

12    with the names of all of those who were in the SDP and he was not among

13    them.

14       Q.   Do you know if he became a member of any other party?

15       A.   Probably the national party, the SDS, I mean.

16       Q.   When you say "probably," does it mean you know?

17            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.

18            JUDGE HUNT:  I would have thought that the answer to that was

19    clearly he does not know, and that's why he used the word "probably."  It

20    is a leading question, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  You can ask him specifically:

21    "Did you know that fact or did you merely hear it or are you guessing?"

22            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23       Q.   You said --

24            JUDGE HUNT:  Is that the objection, Mr. Bakrac?

25            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you, that is

Page 1051

 1    precisely what I wish to say.

 2            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3       Q.   Witness, you said probably he was in a nationalist party.  But why

 4    do you think so?  What makes you believe that?

 5       A.   Well, I saw him several times going to the Ribarski restaurant where

 6    Maksimovic, Ostojic, and the others would come. (redacted)

 7    (redacted).

 8       Q.   Who met at the Ribarski restaurant?  Was it party meetings?

 9       A.   Yes.  Muslims, as of late, had not entered that restaurant.

10       Q.   You have mentioned several people like Maksimovic, Ostojic.  Who

11    were they?

12       A.   They were the ideologues of that party.  They are both from that

13    area, and they were among the main founders of that party in Foca.

14       Q.   How often did you see them at gatherings in the Ribarski

15    restaurant before the war?

16            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.  The witness

17    said that he did not see them at rallies but saw them go to the Ribarski

18    restaurant where meetings were held, (redacted).

19            JUDGE HUNT:  But the question was:  "How often did you see them at

20    gatherings in the Ribarski restaurant," which is precisely where he said

21    that they were.  My only query about it is:  Which party were they

22    the ideologues of?  That, I think, would tie it in.  I don't think there's

23    anything wrong with the question, Mr. Bakrac.

24            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I speak the same

25    language as the witness, I know exactly what he said.  He said that he saw

Page 1052

 1    the accused going to Ribarski restaurant.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  That's right.

 3            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] He did not say that he saw their

 4    meeting.

 5            JUDGE HUNT:  Your objection is recorded in this way:  "The witness

 6    said that he did not see them at rallies but saw them go to the Ribarski

 7    restaurant where meetings were held," and that was precisely what the

 8    question was.  What's wrong with that?  He had earlier said that they met

 9    at the Ribarski restaurant, and he added that Muslims did not at that time

10    enter that restaurant.  He's placed them in the restaurant, not at

11    rallies.

12            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I understood the witness

13    exactly as he had said it.  He saw the accused going to Ribarski restaurant

14    where Maksimovic and the others were.  Let the question be whether he saw

15    them going to the restaurant together.

16            JUDGE HUNT:  I think that that is of the most extreme

17    technicality, if I may say so, Mr. Bakrac.  The question was a fair one on

18    the answers which have been given.  If the answers which were given are

19    different in the interpretation to what you heard, well, then, you have a

20    perfectly fair objection to take.  But on the answers that are recorded,

21    it was a fair question.

22            MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am convinced that it

23    is a technical mistake, and that is the problem here, that we have

24    interpretation.  Even intonations and parts of sentences and the word

25    order can change a meaning.  I understand that problem.  Thank you.

Page 1053

 1            JUDGE HUNT:  If you do see anything where you think it has been

 2    incorrectly translated, then please let us know.  We don't want there to

 3    be any errors about it.  But unless you can show us that there is

 4    something wrong with this translation we have, in my view, the question

 5    was a fair one.

 6            You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 7            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 8       Q.   Witness, these politicians you just mentioned, to which party did

 9    they belong, those politicians you mentioned as ideologues?

10       A.   All of them belonged to the SDS party.  Every man from Foca, every

11    person from Foca, will know how to answer that: that meetings were held at

12    the Ribarski restaurant.  They waited for them to see when they would come

13    to the Ribarski restaurant; Ostojic, Maksimovic, Kornjaca from Cajnice, and

14    the others.  That is where our local people waited for them and attended

15    meetings.  I never entered that restaurant during that time, nor anyone

16    else but them, and that is what every person knows, that that was held

17    there.

18       Q.   How often did you see such meetings of the SDS party in the

19    restaurant?

20       A.   Very often, (redacted).

21       Q.   From your window, could you see the restaurant?

22       A.   Yes, I could see the restaurant.

23       Q.   You said that Mr. Krnojelac went there.  Did you ever see him go

24    to the restaurant together with these politicians?

25       A.   No, not with them but with the people from Foca.

Page 1054

 1       Q.   Did you ever learn that he had a function in the SDS?

 2       A.   No, I did not.

 3       Q.   How often did you see Mr. Krnojelac attend meetings in the

 4    restaurant?

 5       A.   A few times.  Two or three times I saw him going there.

 6       Q.   Do you recall when you saw him going to the meetings?  Do you

 7    recall the year or even the month?

 8       A.   No, no, I cannot recall.

 9       Q.   When you saw him going there, what did he wear?

10       A.   Civilian clothes.

11       Q.   When did the war in Foca break out?

12       A.   Officially, on the 8th of April, 1992.

13       Q.   When you say "officially," what do you mean?  Is there also an

14    unofficial beginning?

15       A.   A day earlier, Abid Ramovic, a policeman, was killed who was

16    trying to rescue a woman who had been wounded near the former railway

17    station.  That brought great fear among the people.  On the 7th of April,

18    around 10.00 in the morning, the main attack on Foca took place.

19       Q.   What was included in this attack with regard to weapons?

20       A.   Both shells and infantry weapons.

21       Q.   How long did the fighting last?

22       A.   For a few days.

23       Q.   What did you do during these days?

24       A.   I hid in shelters and I was in my apartment.

25       Q.   Did you ever get involved in the fighting?

Page 1055

 1       A.   No.

 2       Q.   Was the fighting all over Foca or was it concentrated in certain

 3    neighbourhoods?

 4       A.   There was shooting from all sides, but most of it was directed at

 5    Donje Polje, the neighbourhood of Donje Polje.

 6       Q.   Is this a Muslim neighbourhood?

 7       A.   Majority.  Majority Muslim.

 8       Q.   Were houses destroyed during this initial fighting?

 9       A.   Yes, they were.

10       Q.   Do you know in which part of the town houses were destroyed during

11    this initial fighting?

12       A.   During the first days, as far as I managed to find out, a few

13    houses were destroyed near Krnojelac's house.  Even his was ablaze.

14       Q.   Did you see that or did you hear about it?

15       A.   No, I could not see it because I did not dare move about.  But I

16    heard about it from others.

17       Q.   Were these Serb houses destroyed deliberately or during the

18    fighting?

19       A.   There wasn't any fighting there, only a little.  I think this was

20    done intentionally.

21       Q.   Is there a reason why someone would destroy the house of the

22    accused Krnojelac?

23       A.   As far as I heard -- actually, I knew that one of his sons had a

24    cafe in that house and that on the eve of the war, these sort of

25    extremists of the SDS had gathered there.  But I did not see that.

Page 1056

 1       Q.   Who told you?  How do you know that?

 2       A.   That's what people said.  That is what people said just before the

 3    war broke out; people talked about where, who gathered, et cetera.

 4       Q.   What did you hear about the cafe of the son of the accused?

 5       A.   Well, I heard that that was one of the places where the extreme

 6    wing of the SDS gathered.  Some kind of extremists.  I don't know.

 7       Q.   What do you call extremists?  What does that mean when you say

 8    it?  You said the extreme wing of the SDS.  What does that mean?

 9       A.   Well, people like Tuta Janjic, people like that.

10       Q.   Who was that, Tuta Janjic?

11       A.   A criminal.

12       Q.   What does such a person have to do with the SDS?

13       A.   He carried out certain actions.

14       Q.   You knew Mr. Krnojelac.  Did you ever hear that he was an

15    extremist?

16       A.   No, I never heard that.

17       Q.   Given the fact that the house of the accused, Krnojelac, was

18    destroyed during the war, do you know where he lived during the war?

19       A.   After his house was destroyed, you mean?

20       Q.   Yes.

21       A.   I heard that he moved into an apartment, the apartment of a

22    doctor, because painters, who were detained together with us, were taken

23    out to paint that apartment.

24       Q.   And when you say "doctor," do you mean a Muslim doctor?

25       A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 1057

 1            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think it's now 4.00.

 2            JUDGE HUNT:  Thank you.  Before we adjourn, there are two things I

 3    want to say.  Firstly, this courtroom is being used tomorrow for another

 4    case so that it would be unsafe, I think, to leave any materials around.

 5    The Defence bar table will have to accommodate six counsel and they take

 6    up a lot of room so particularly the Defence counsel better move all their

 7    stuff out.

 8            The other thing that I want to point out is that the criticism of

 9    the previous application for voice distortion which I implied in my praise

10    on the way in which the last one was presented, was not directed at anyone

11    in the Prosecution team here but was directed at the Victims' and

12    Witnesses' Unit which appears, unfortunately, to believe that protective

13    measures only have to be asked for to be granted, and it was to emphasise

14    that a basis,some objective basis must be shown before protective measures

15    are granted.

16            We will adjourn now in this case until Monday at 9.30.  --

17            MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, there is now a break.  I think

18    the next day is the 23rd.

19            JUDGE HUNT:  Yes, of course, we've changed the week, you're quite

20    right.  Thank you very much.  Until 9.30 on the 23rd.

21                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22                          at 4.02 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday

23                          the 23rd day of November, 2000, at

24                          9.30 a.m.