1 Tuesday, 16
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the
7 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Who is it who wishes to raise something?
9 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would like to --
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, I haven't got
12 any interpretation.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Can you hear me now in a language which you
14 understand? You are not the accused. It's all right.
15 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, after discussion with the
17 Defence yesterday, we have several matters solved.
18 First of all, the Prosecution would like to tender into evidence
19 some documents related to Witness 33. These documents are actually in the
20 trial binder, but it has to be officially handed over. It is in the trial
21 binder, it is -- first of all, the transcript of this witness, in the
22 trial binder, it's ID 106. That's the transcript of Witness 33's
24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: During the testimony, several documents were
1 discussed with this witness. First of all, there was a map the witness
2 produced, a map of Foca, and this is in the trial -- it is in the trial
3 binders. The document, let me just see, is 99, ID 99. And we have the
4 documents provided by the witness, the exit permits for herself and the
5 family. Those are the documents with the identification number ID 100 to
6 ID 104A.
7 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. 100. What's the next one?
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 100 to 104A, that is, 100 and 100A, 101,
9 101A, 102, 102A, 103, 103A, and 104, 104A. These were the exit permits.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Just let me get that right. There's 100, 101, 101A,
11 102, 103, 103A, 104, and 104A.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There are also 100A and 102A. All these
13 documents, 100 to 104, have also a translation which is A.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Right.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Those documents go in under seal, as well as
16 the map because the map also shows the name of the witness.
17 The last exhibit that came in was the witness statement, the
18 previous witness statement to the Prosecutor's Office. That was tendered
19 also under seal from the Defence. It is document ID 96.
20 We would like to enter these documents now.
21 JUDGE HUNT: No objection, Mr. Bakrac?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, those documents will be Exhibit
24 P106 --
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm so sorry. I just have to be
3 sure. Document 96 is a statement given to the Prosecution or, rather, the
4 investigators of the OTP in relation to this witness; right?
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
6 JUDGE HUNT: And it was tendered into evidence in the other
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: By the Defence counsel, actually, and it's
9 discussed in the transcript at various points.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Then there are no objections
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just want to mention that in the testimony
14 of this witness, several videos were shown. We did not enter them here
15 because the videos were actually discussed intensely during the testimony,
16 and the contents of the video are to be seen from the testimony itself.
17 So it's just not necessary to do that.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Those will be Exhibits P106, and then the
19 following ones are under seal: P99, 100, 100A, 101, 101A, 102, 102A, 103,
20 103A, 104, 104A, and 96.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
22 We have also discussed the matter of summoning of this one
23 witness, and the Defence and the Prosecution agree that the witness should
24 be summoned like it is requested but not for the 26th of February but at
25 an earlier stage, that is, the 13th of February.
1 JUDGE HUNT: So the summons is issued by consent. Can you provide
2 us with a document to sign?
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, we can do that. Yes. I don't have it
5 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, but if you have it during the morning, then
6 it could be signed.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll do so.
8 We have also reached an agreement on the Witness 96, but we will
9 come back to this at a later stage. We will have to strike some of the
10 parts of it and we have to agree on this first.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I wonder if the motion of the Defence should
13 be discussed now with the request for examination.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid that I have not yet received any document
15 identifying the precise issue. It may be lost in the Registry's
16 interstices, but they certainly have not been supplied to the Trial
17 Chamber yet. So I think we better wait until we see that.
18 Anything else before we bring the witness back in?
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Anything else, Mr. Bakrac?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Let's have the witness, please.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 WITNESS: FWS-86 [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, Witness.
2 Yes, Mr. Smith.
3 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.
4 Examined by Mr. Smith: [Continued]
5 Q. Good morning, Witness. Witness, I just have a few more questions
6 to ask you this morning, and as we discussed yesterday, if it -- it would
7 be appreciated if you could specifically listen carefully to the question
8 and specifically answer the question, and if any extra further information
9 is required another question will follow, but listen very specifically to
10 the question that's asked. Do you understand?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yesterday you gave some evidence that Zulfo Veiz was taken out of
13 your room at about 9.00 and taken down to the administration building, and
14 then you heard some beatings and some screaming coming from that building
15 about ten minutes after he was taken out. You said that the beatings and
16 the screamings lasted for about half an hour to an hour. Then I asked
17 you, "Did you hear anything else after this beating or screaming?" And
18 you said that was one of the last things that happened.
19 Following the screaming and the beatings, did you hear anything
20 else that was connected to this particular incident?
21 A. I heard that very late in the night, between 11.00 and 12.00 at
22 night. I mean, between 2300 and 2400 hours. I heard the squeaking of
23 brakes or, rather, wheels, and bursts of gunfire from weapons.
24 Approximately about ten minutes later a loud sound was heard, the thump of
25 something falling into the Drina. This could be heard well because it was
1 about 200 metres away as the crow flies, and the silence was such we say
2 that it was as silent as in a cemetery or in the grave.
3 I had the impression that I could see all of this although I could
4 not see it. I could hear and feel that this could have been his end. I'm
5 referring to Zulfo Veiz.
6 Q. And how many bursts of gunfire did you hear?
7 A. Well, usually these were intermittent shots, two or three,
8 depending on how many persons there were for that night.
9 Q. After this night, after Zulfo Veiz was taken out, have you ever
10 seen him again?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you ever heard of him being alive since that night?
13 A. No. But people who were with me in the camp from that room asked
14 one of the guards, "What's up with Zulfo?" The guard said, "He's been
15 transferred to another camp."
16 Q. You also mentioned that this type of incident that occurred to
17 Zulfo Veiz occurred to a number of other detainees who were taken out over
18 a one- to two-month period from the dormitory and taken to the
19 administration building. You said that some people were taken three or
20 four times a week and sometimes it was just once a week, and you said you
21 had to place a pillow over your ears to block out the screams. Is that
23 A. Yes, correct. Within about two months' time, what happened to
24 Zulfo Veiz happened to many others, whether it's 40, 50, 60, whatever.
25 But these people were usually taken before night would fall, at 6.00,
1 7.00, or 8.00, and after that, such terrible screams and moans could be
2 heard from that direction that I would take a sponge instead of cotton
3 wool to put into my ears. And even that couldn't keep the sound out. I
4 even had to put my pillow over my head so that this would not reach my
5 ears and so that I would not be so ill because of all those screams.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned, after Zulfo Veiz was taken to the
7 administration building, that there was gunfire and then the thump of his
8 body into the -- the thump of what appeared to be a body into the river.
9 Did gunfire occur after other beatings that you've just referred to, or
10 was it just in relation to Zulfo Veiz?
11 A. The same happened to the others who were taken out for beatings
12 and the same procedure was involved, approximately the same; the squeaking
13 of brakes or, rather, wheels, then a very short trip. And in a relatively
14 short period of time, it depended on how many people had to be finished
15 off, there were intermittent bursts of gunfire that lasted longer, in
16 relation to Zulfo, that is. On the assumption that this night between the
17 20st and 21st of August, as far as I can remember, Zulfo was taken away in
18 the evening, and four, five, six times, a loud splash could be heard, loud
19 splashes of something falling into the water.
20 Q. About how many people were taken to the administration building
21 over this period that you've just mentioned and appeared to be beaten in
22 this way? Can you give an approximate number?
23 A. Well, that lasted for about two months. As far as that period is
24 concerned, I haven't got any precise records, but 40, 50, or even 60
25 people finished in that way.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. When you say "finished in that way," you've stated that 40 or 50
2 or 60 people were beaten in that way. How many of those people came back
3 into the KP Dom after those beatings?
4 A. No one did.
5 Q. Do you know who generally was committing these beatings? Who was
6 doing -- who was committing these assaults in the administration centre?
7 A. I don't know. But according to information previously received,
8 it was the military police that contributed to this the most.
9 Q. These particular people that were taken out and beaten in the
10 administration building, were they selected for any particular reason over
11 and above other detainees?
12 A. Well, for the most part, to the best of our knowledge, "special
13 treatment" was accorded to members of the SDA, persons who worked in the
14 municipal authorities, persons who had worked in the police before, as
15 well as persons who were organised in some kind of SDA logistics. At
16 least that's what people said.
17 Q. How well known amongst the prisoners, amongst the detainees, was
18 this practice of beating and subsequent hearing of shots?
19 A. Well, everybody heard it. Part of the detainees would see them
20 leave but no one would see these men return. Ninety-nine per cent of all
21 detainees could hear these screams.
22 Q. This practice of people being taken out and beaten and never being
23 seen again, what effect did that have on you whilst you were in prison?
24 A. Very hard. I don't know what the right term for this would be,
25 but it was horror.
1 Q. Other than these people that you mentioned were taken into the
2 administration building and beaten, were there other detainees that
3 appeared to have disappeared from the KP Dom whilst you were there?
4 A. Yes. That was, as they say, "legal," under quotation marks.
5 Certain groups would go to pick plums or to do other things in groups of
6 10 or 15, which later did not return at all, nor did we receive any
7 information as to what had happened with them. But only later it turned
8 out that they were out on a road of no return.
9 Q. Other than the detainees that you've mentioned that were beaten in
10 the administration centre, how many -- can you put a number as to the
11 amount of detainees that were at the KP Dom whilst you were there and were
12 never seen again afterwards? If you're unable to say, just say so.
13 A. According to our records -- records were kept every day because we
14 went in the direction of the restaurant for about 100 metres, and I said
15 in my statement that sometimes one or two groups would be brought together
16 as they went out. We knew every day how many people there were within the
17 camp. We also knew how many people were in solitary confinement.
18 In my assessment, between 700 and 800 people had passed through
19 the camp.
20 Q. In the time that you were there, did you have any assessment as to
21 how many people were missing after being in the camp? Only from the time
22 that you were there.
23 A. In that period about 100 persons disappeared. Perhaps 110 or 115
24 even, but around 100.
25 Q. And does this include the people that were beaten in the
1 administration building in the evening or is that number on top of that?
2 A. No. That is the total number.
3 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I just ask that the witness be given
4 P55. Not to go through it in any detail but just --
5 JUDGE HUNT: Schedule C.
6 MR. SMITH: Schedule C. It's just to clarify one name that was
7 there yesterday.
8 Q. Witness, I just ask that you look at the piece of paper in front
9 of you and look at number C17. The person's name is Krunoslav Marinovic.
10 A. Number 17.
11 Q. Did you know that person at the KP Dom?
12 A. I knew him from before. He had a workshop of his own, a repair
13 shop for radio and TV sets, but I saw him at the KP Dom on the 19th and
14 20th. His face was totally distorted.
15 Q. The 19th and 20th of which month?
16 A. April. April 1992.
17 Q. And we discussed this person yesterday; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. SMITH: Just for the record, Your Honour, the person was
20 discussed as Kresimir Martinovic, which appears to be probably a
21 pronunciation problem on my part.
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 MR. SMITH:
24 Q. This person, he received injuries to his face. Did he receive
25 them in the KP Dom or before he arrived there?
1 A. He came back with these injuries.
2 Q. He came to the KP Dom with those injuries?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. And did you know what happened to him after you saw him on the
5 19th or 20th of April?
6 A. He said to the people around him -- I mean, I personally did not
7 ask him, but it was Ostojic's escorts who had beaten him so badly that
8 they had trouble bringing him to the KP Dom. They mutilated his face. He
9 was treated with cold compresses only.
10 Q. Now, I'd just like to ask you just a couple of questions about
11 your attempted exchange whilst you were at the KP Dom and then your final
12 exchange when you left.
13 I think it was on the 17th of June, 1992, about 12 to 15 prisoners
14 from KP Dom were taken to or near to Cajnice.
15 A. True.
16 Q. Is that date correct or could --
17 A. Well, in mid-July. I don't really remember whether it was the
18 17th or the 18th, but it was the middle of July 1992.
19 Q. And you were taken there with a van full of women and some
20 children and some elderly males; is that correct?
21 A. No. We were taken. There were six from Gorazde and there were
22 about ten of us from Foca, so about 12 to 16 altogether. We rode in a
23 lorry, and children, two old men of about 80, and two or three women of
24 about the same age came there, and there was also a rather young nurse
25 there and about ten children between the ages of three and six or seven.
1 Q. These children, the two or three women and the two old men, where
2 did they come from?
3 A. The second night -- the first night we spent in a school at
4 Miljevina, and the second night, after the failed exchange, we were
5 transferred to the school at Luke. That night we were lying on benches on
6 the upper floor, we were all together there, and I learned from that nurse
7 that they had been transferred from an auxiliary camp called Partizan and
8 brought there for exchange.
9 Q. Did that nurse tell you how they were treated at the Partizan
11 A. Yes. It was a story that I simply could not believe because it
12 defied imagination. Soldiers would go there from time to time, take those
13 women away and do most despicable things to them. The most despicable
14 things are those which are physical, without any emotions, and which end
15 in a lifelong trauma for those women.
16 Q. Are you talking about rapes?
17 A. Quite so.
18 Q. Now, this exchange failed and you were taken back to the KP Dom,
19 and the women and children were taken back to Partizan; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, indeed.
21 Q. Who notified you that you were going to be exchanged on that
22 occasion? Was it guards, was it soldiers, or was it someone else? When
23 you were first taken out of the KP Dom.
24 A. A group had arrived from, I guess, the military part of Cajnice,
25 and they tried to use us to retrieve their own men who were in prisons or
1 perhaps in an area, to have them exchanged for those of us who were in the
2 Gorazde territory. The one who was in charge of that organisation - I
3 don't know him; I never knew him - he told us that he used to be a school
4 teacher in Cajnice.
5 Q. Were you taken from your room at the KP Dom by guards and then
6 delivered to soldiers at the front of the KP Dom, or did soldiers come to
7 your room? Who escorted you out through the KP Dom on your way for this
8 attempted exchange?
9 A. Our guards first searched us in two places to see if we were
10 carrying something and they searched us very thoroughly, from head to
11 feet, so that we could not really take over anything of any suspicious
12 nature, even in a written form, let alone an object. We were turned over
13 to men from Cajnice in the building itself, and then they told us to begin
14 boarding a lorry. There was also some Vojvoda from Cajnice who
15 immediately started to threaten us.
16 Q. Then if we can move to the 29th of August. I think about 55
17 detainees from the KP Dom, including yourself, were taken towards Niksic;
18 is that correct?
19 A. It is. In the morning of the 28th, the guard Obrenovic came to
20 the door and had a list with him, and I was one of those on the list so I
21 was called out last. We were both happy and unhappy. But we heard from
22 him something that we did not believe right away, because he told us we
23 were going to the free territory of Yugoslavia. We did not know because
24 some men were picked out from every dormitory. This selection usually
25 meant either youth or very advanced-aged men with some health complaints.
1 On the 28th of August, that is, that same day, we were transferred
2 to a room and there we waited for about ten hours for a bus which did not
3 turn up. We were then taken back to Room 12.
4 Q. Were you told that you were going to be exchanged or released?
5 A. We were told that we would be released.
6 Q. Were you given a choice as to where you were going to be released?
7 A. No.
8 Q. The following day, the 55 of you headed off in the bus. On that
9 journey, did you come across a Pero Elez?
10 A. That day, when we started off in a bus, we waited a long time in
11 front of various institutions which were to give us a green light, that
12 is, issue us different papers allowing us to move on. So after several
13 such stops, we set off, after some harassment on the border with
14 Montenegro. Along the way, we were also harassed up to a certain point by
15 the army of Republika Srpska; not those escorting us but those who stopped
16 us. We were all merry to have passed through all that, and arrived some 5
17 or 6 kilometres from Niksic. Niksic is in Montenegro.
18 In Montenegro, the driver automatically stopped and said, "We have
19 to go back." What happened? Pero Elez, whom they called Vojvoda, turned
20 us all back to the KP Dom.
21 Q. What function did Pero Elez have at the KP Dom? Was he involved
22 in the KP Dom at all? Was he in the army? Do you know what role he had
23 at this time?
24 A. Well, he was one of the important Vojvoda in the territory of
25 Miljevina, and as such, I suppose he wielded a lot of influence, had an
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 important say with the Crisis Staff and other officials. He and another
2 one turned the bus back, and you can well imagine what authority he
4 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, we've heard an awful lot about Pero Elez
5 in various cases, but I've never heard that phrase "Vojvoda" before.
6 Could we get some understanding what it is.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me. Before we
8 move on, the witness said, "Can you imagine what kind of military
9 authority he had," and it is not in the transcript. I think it is very
10 important. I know that it will be checked the next day, but it is rather
11 important, so I wanted to make a point of that now.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. But can we find out what that phrase
13 means, what that word means, please?
14 MR. SMITH:
15 Q. You said that Pero Elez was an important Vojvoda in the territory
16 of Miljevina. What do you mean by the term "Vojvoda"?
17 A. "Vojvoda" is a title which dates back to old times, to the
18 historical times in the history of the warfare of these people. A person
19 with this title, I cannot say exactly what rank, that means in military
20 terms, but it is a military rank, and it ensures -- it vests that person
21 with authority in a particular setting.
22 May I add? In that place in Serbia where I was finally fetched up
23 from the International Red Cross and Crescent, I received something
24 similar. Pero Elez, Vojvoda of Miljevina, took a freight, that is a
25 passenger, that is, a car from the International Red Cross, and all the
1 documentation, including the record of us all, towards the end of April
2 and the beginning of May.
3 Q. So Pero Elez was in the Bosnian Serb military in the Foca area at
4 that time; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you said the driver said that the bus had to go back to the
7 KP Dom. Was the driver from the KP Dom or was he a soldier from --
8 A. He wore civilian clothes and was very decent. No sooner had we
9 crossed the border when he addressed us warmly, "Well, you need not be
10 afraid any more. We are in a different republic." But that proved to be
11 a mistake. He used to work earlier for a shipping company as a bus
13 Q. Pero Elez caused for the bus to go back to the KP Dom; is that
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Did you hear why he caused the bus to go back to the KP Dom?
17 A. No, because we did not communicate with them, with him. He
18 ordered the driver to turn the bus back and that is how it happened.
19 Q. And the bus arrived back at the KP Dom, and were 20 people from
20 that bus segregated from the 55?
21 A. We were turned back, and we were offered then, because we had not
22 eaten, to eat something. So we went to the restaurant and returned from
23 the restaurant all together to Room 11. Half an hour later, a guard came
24 and he had a list with him, and he called out -- he started calling out
25 and called about 20 men. I was not among them. I thought that those that
1 he was calling out perhaps had some advantage. So I ran up to them and
2 the guard says, "What do you want? What are you waiting here?" And I
3 said, "Well, am I not there?" And he said, "Just beat it."
4 Q. And what happened to these 20 men? Where did they go?
5 A. After that, some 20 minutes perhaps, half an hour later, the same
6 guard came and told us to get ready quickly. We did get ready quickly and
7 then the same procedure started all over again. And again the same
8 procedure through one gate, through another gate, search, no particular
9 problems, and we boarded the same bus once again.
10 It just happened so that I turned to the right across the River
11 Drina and I saw a bus full of people. Assumption, my assumption, is that
12 those people had either taken the old road towards Miljevina or the road
13 to Gorazde, that is, Ustikolina.
14 Q. And which people are you referring to? Are you referring to the
15 20 that were selected whilst you were in the KP Dom?
16 A. Yes. Yes, I am referring to them. I had an intuition that it
17 could only be they, even though I could not, of course, recognise them at
18 that distance. But there was some intuition that those men could have
19 been them.
20 Q. Did you see those 20 in fact being taken out of the KP Dom or
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it --
24 A. I mean, they were taken from the room. I saw them go through this
25 second door which leads into the main lobby of the administrative
1 building, and after that we lost them from sight, which means they had
2 left the facility. I could see them go through the door which is used
3 under normal conditions.
4 Q. Do you know the names of any of these individuals that were in
5 this group of 20?
6 A. Well, I was particularly close to, and on the 28th I spent most of
7 my time with him while we waited in the bus for those eight hours, and we
8 talked if we left whom to communicate, how to find people, because one
9 doesn't really think very much if he gets out to the free territory whom
10 to find and how. So it was Ismet Pasovic who was particularly close to
11 me. At that time, he was close to 70.
12 Q. Was he in that group of 20 that was selected?
13 A. Yes, he was.
14 Q. Do you know the names of any other individuals that were in that
15 group of 20 that were selected by the guard?
16 A. Well, I did sort of register it somewhere. But, I mean, there was
17 a Granov who used to be a social worker and worked for the same company as
18 I did. There were some from Gorazde. A man who -- there was Esad
19 Nezbur. There was that other one from Gorazde who hoped that his wife
20 might be able to get him out of there because she had some rather good
22 Q. Do you know what happened to these 20 individuals that were taken
24 A. Well, later one learnt, naturally, that a man cannot sleep easily
25 unless he pursues truth. But to come by such information, to learn what
1 happened to whom, that is very difficult, very difficult. But at the same
2 time, after all this time, I committed myself to it, both wishing to help
3 those who had remained behind me. So I tried to do what I could. I could
4 not come by any information about what happened to them. They are simply
5 not among the living anymore - that is something that I know for certain -
6 because to this day I have not received any indication that they are still
8 Q. Now, you've stated to the Court that you were detained at the KP
9 Dom for four and a half months, and you've stated to the Court what you
10 saw there and how you were treated. How has that affected you today
12 A. Like many others, I experienced some hard moments after I came out
13 because freedom was highly hazardous wherever. I received treatment in a
14 number of hospitals. I also went to different institutions, from physical
15 therapists to psychologists, and I was also received in different health
16 institutions so as to allay, as much as I could, the trauma that I still
17 feel. I'm still under medical observation by specialists in psychology
18 and other institutions which want to help me.
19 As time goes by, it becomes ever harder because one does not see
20 any chance for one's personal future or the future of one's family, and
21 that leaves a very deep mark on my soul. I see no future and no money, no
22 money, no property which could, as we say it in Bosnia, "rahatluk," give
23 us peace which we enjoyed before the war broke out. Everybody was looked
24 after; everybody had his plans and thought about his future.
25 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you, Witness. I have
1 no further questions.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Cross-examination?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
5 Q. I wish you good morning, Witness. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac, and
6 I'm one of the defenders of the accused Milorad Krnojelac. Good morning.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. Is it true, Witness, that you told the investigators of the
9 Prosecution, on the 13th and 14th of November, 1995 and on the 27th and
10 29th of May and the 4th of June, 1999, your statements?
11 A. Yes, it is correct, if I remember the dates correctly.
12 Q. Did you make those statements of your own free will, and did you
13 sign them?
14 A. I did, yes.
15 Q. Is it correct that in your statement of the 27th and 29th of May
16 and the 4th of June, 1999, on page 5, passage 7, you stated the following,
18 "Krnojelac was de jure the commander/warden of the KP Dom, but
19 the power de facto was in the hands of Todovic, Rasevic, and the military
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, Mr. Bakrac.
23 Witness, when you are answering a question asked of you by
24 Mr. Bakrac, you must realise that because you are both speaking in the
25 same language, the translator has a little bit of trouble keeping up with
1 you. So would you please pause before you answer to enable the
2 translators to catch up with the end of the sentence. Just a short pause
3 and then they will be able to pick up the whole of your answer. So far
4 they have been very short answers; but if you give a longer one, it may be
5 difficult to keep up with you if you go on straight away.
6 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So what you said in your statement to the Prosecutor, that is, to
9 the Prosecutor's investigators, and which we have just read, is quite
11 A. [Interpretation] It is, yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in one of those statements you also
13 said that on the 3rd of May, 1992, a delegation of the International Red
14 Cross, which included two Swiss citizens, registered you as a prisoner in
15 the KP Dom?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So I pronounced the date, the 3rd of May, 1992, ten days or so
18 after your detention.
19 A. Well, I cannot really be sure if it was the 3rd of May. But as
20 far as I can remember, that was the very end of April and the beginning of
21 May. But to the best of my recollection, it could be -- I don't know if
22 it is important, but it could have been on the 30th of April or perhaps on
23 the 1st. It was then that those people from the International Red Cross
24 came with two girls who were interpreters.
25 Q. So we can agree that it was about ten days or so after your
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it also correct that in one of your statements you said that on
4 the day when you last talked to Milorad Krnojelac, at the end of that
5 conversation, Savo Todovic said to you that you should go and give a
6 statement to the press?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Oh, it is correct?
9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. So it is correct that it is not the accused Krnojelac who directed
11 you to do so but that it was Savo Todovic who told you to go and speak to
12 the press, give a statement to the press?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Witness, please be so kind as to tell me the following: You said
15 here before the Tribunal that you had four contacts with Mr. Krnojelac.
16 Can you remember whether these are the last -- the only moments when you
17 saw Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?
18 A. No, these are not the only moments. Like all the others, I saw
19 him through the window, I saw him passing by through the yard, because
20 that was the only way to go from the exit to the furniture factory or,
21 rather, the restaurant and also to the area where the cooking was done.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Tell me, please, is it correct that you said
23 to the investigators of the OTP that you saw Mr. Krnojelac during regular
24 working hours, until about 4.00 in the afternoon?
25 A. Well, to the best of my recollection, I think that Krnojelac was
1 there, for the most part, during working hours.
2 Q. When you say "during working hours," what period is this?
3 A. Well, I don't know whether it's four or three or five, but that
4 was what their working hours were, and the guard shift was around 6.00.
5 Q. You spoke about the main leaders of the Serb Democratic Party.
6 Can you tell me who the main leaders for the SDA in Foca were?
7 A. Well, I could say that in 1991 a certain differentiation had
8 already started in terms of the presentation of candidates on the part of
9 parties. I think Taib Lojo was appointed president of the municipality by
10 the SDA. I think they held certain functions, certain posts in that
12 In 1991 or perhaps even earlier - I wasn't very well-versed, to
13 tell you the truth - they divided certain posts, certain offices, the SDA
14 and the SDS did, but I know that in Foca, Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja, was
15 in charge of Republican activity and he was a Republican MP. As for the
16 others, quite frankly, I had work to do, to tell you the truth, so I was
17 not very much involved in who was doing what and how.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness. It's a bit strange to me. You are very
19 well-versed in the leaders of the SDS, and when I speak about the leaders
20 of the SDA, you were very busy, you were not interested. How come that's
21 possible for you to know so little about the leaders of the SDA?
22 A. As a citizen, I was 100 per cent neutral. I did not belong to any
23 party. I -- I mean, at that time it was relatively normal to belong to
24 the League of Communists. At that time, sometime in 1989, I stopped being
25 a member of that organisation, and from then onwards, I did not belong to
1 any political party.
2 For those reasons, I can say who the members were, but quite
3 frankly speaking, I cannot say whether such-and-such a person was a member
4 of the SDA and what post he held. However, I can say who held which
5 office. Reuf Tafra was director of the regional medical centre. Whether
6 he belonged to the SDA or whether it was the SDA that appointed him to
7 that position, I cannot go into that at all, for example.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please be so kind as to say whether you know
9 who was commander of the Territorial Defence just before the conflict
10 broke out in Foca and what was his ethnic background?
11 A. As far as I can remember, it should have been Sulejman Pilav.
12 Q. What is he ethnically?
13 A. He's a Muslim, a Bosniak.
14 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Mr. Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja.
15 Yesterday you said that Serbs were arming themselves but Muslims were
16 too. Do you know that Sahinpasic stated in parliament and the newspapers
17 that already in 1991 and 1992 he was arming Muslims in Foca?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know at all of him doing that? Are you familiar with
21 A. It was only when I came to a certain country, republic of the
22 former Yugoslavia, that I found out about the activities of that man. It
23 was very negative in terms of persons of Muslim ethnicity.
24 This man you mentioned, Saja, it is true that he was a MP, but I
25 did not know anything about the arming of the Muslim part of the
2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your statement yesterday that you
3 were present at the SDS rally which was held at the stadium in Foca, if
4 I'm not mistaken.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it correct that before this rally, a rally of the Party of
7 Democratic Action was held in Foca.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You said that on the stage, when we are talking about the rally of
10 the Serb Democratic Party at the stadium, you saw the main people from the
11 SDS at republican level. Can you tell us who was on the stage together
12 with them from Foca?
13 A. Originally from Foca it was Ostojic, Maksimovic, as far as I can
14 remember. My visual memory is relatively good, so I go through this
15 reconstruction quite a different way. Then there was Stanic. There was
16 someone else too, but that -- that image comes back to me from the second
17 row. I cannot reconstruct that part of the image. Cancar. Yes, Petko
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday, you said when you came to the
20 KP Dom -- you said that when you came to the KP Dom that a person
21 nicknamed Cakani registered your name in the logbook there and that you
22 cannot remember his last name. Would you agree if I said that that
23 person's last name is Dobnik and that he is an ethnic Croat?
24 A. I know that -- I mean, I'm sure that he was Nedjo Klaric's brother
25 or son-in-law, brother-in-law or son-in-law, but I would not have known
1 that he was of Catholic ethnicity. I know that he worked there as a
2 corrections officer, but, quite frankly, I never gave much thought to his
3 last name. But I know 100 per cent that he was Nedjo Klaric's son-in-law
4 or brother-in-law.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note the word is ambiguous in the
6 original, whether it's "son-in-law" or "brother-in-law."
7 JUDGE HUNT: You may not have heard what the interpreters said
8 there. There is an ambiguity in the word which the witness is using as to
9 whether it means his brother-in-law or his son-in-law. You may or may not
10 want to follow that up.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 Q. When you used this word "zet," is that the man's sister's husband
13 or the man's daughter's husband? You heard what was said by the
14 Honourable Judge.
15 A. In our jargon, it means that he got married to Nedjo Klaric's
17 JUDGE HUNT: So it's son-in-law. Thank you.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. I'm just reading from the list of staff members from the KP Dom,
20 and I'm asking you whether you would agree that the person nicknamed
21 Cakani is that person, that is, Aleksandar Dobnik, father's name, Rudolf,
22 born in 1944. He worked in security.
23 A. I cannot say for sure whether that's his name and surname
24 officially, but I know 100 per cent sure that his nickname was Cakani. He
25 had great respect for me. That day, when he registered all my details, he
1 offered me a cigarette and he also gave me a pack of cigarettes without
2 the filter. The brand is Niska Morava.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness. When speaking of medical care, you said that
4 at first, once a week, and later, once in 15 or 20 days,
5 doctors/physicians came from the medical centre of Foca. Is it correct
6 that in the KP Dom, Gojko Jokanovic, a male nurse, was there every day,
7 and isn't that what you said in your statements to the OTP?
8 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I stated that, but I'm sorry that I did not
9 state - I remembered this later - that instead of a doctor, instead of a
10 general practitioner or an occupational medicine specialist, we had a
11 gynaecologist coming in to see us. I'm not saying this was every day, but
12 almost every day, in the KP Dom building, Gojko Jokanovic was there. He
13 retired as a medical technician, as a male nurse, from the KP Dom, and he
14 was reactivated when the concentration camp was set up in Foca.
15 Q. Is it also correct that a dentist, Boban Kostovic, was also at the
16 KP Dom?
17 A. That's correct, once or twice during my period. Let me add one
18 more thing. He did not have any chance of intervening in any way, not
19 extracting a tooth either, because these premises were devastated. He
20 only gave Aspirin.
21 Q. Is that what you know about this or is that what you say was the
22 case for sure?
23 A. I assert that that is the way it was, 100 per cent sure.
24 Q. Speaking of medical care, do you know that someone in your room
25 received an infusion?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. But semilegally.
4 Q. Yesterday you said that you were present when there was a clash
5 between Mr. Krnojelac and the commander of the Uzice Corps, let's call it
6 that; when Krnojelac, in your opinion, phoned the Crisis Staff and, in
7 your opinion, talked to Stanic.
8 Do you allow for the possibility that, on that occasion,
9 Mr. Krnojelac talked to Mr. Radojica Mladzenovic, President of the
10 Executive Council?
11 A. I cannot assert what the name was and I cannot say whether this
12 was the commander or the commanding officer. But I know that he had some
13 kind of high authority, order-issuing authority over Krnojelac, the one
14 who insisted that he, Krnojelac, use that number to make a phone call.
15 According to my visual memory, that's the way I recorded it. Now,
16 how accurate this was, I don't know. I remember the number as being
17 570041. Perhaps it's my tragedy that I have this visual memory. Although
18 this time distance is so long, I tried to record this earlier. I think
19 that the name could be Stanic, because he was President of the SDS.
20 Stanic could also be President of the Crisis Staff. So I'm not claiming
21 what the name was exactly, but I do claim that it could be the Crisis
23 Q. Yesterday you spoke of a cafe that was in the family home of
24 Mr. Krnojelac. Did you ever go there? Did you ever spend any time in
25 that cafe?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. When his son designed the interior - he did so himself, his son
2 did - he put in some kind of decorative objects. I dropped in then, and
3 if I'm not mistaken, I was invited for a drink one more time as a
4 neighbour, of course. I must tell you that I was pleased that such a man
5 did quite a few things like that by himself. I was even surprised.
6 But let me tell you quite frankly, in terms of my job, the job I
7 had, I was supposed to communicate with quite a few persons from the
8 business community, so I was kind of fed up with restaurants and cafes.
9 This is an unwritten rule, that business people go out to eat and drink
10 together after business meetings. I never went to restaurants and cafes
11 except on exceptional occasions. I was not interested in that, regardless
12 of who the owner was.
13 Q. So when you say that nationalist, chauvinist songs were sung in
14 that cafe, you had never actually entered it.
15 A. I did not listen to it, but I heard from neighbours in that street
16 that, late into the night, songs were sung of a nationalist content.
17 Q. Witness, do you know that right next to that cafe, about 30 metres
18 away, there is a cafe with a live band owned by Grujicic?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that these nationalist songs were
21 heard precisely from that locality?
22 A. Well, I said a few minutes ago, I was not the one who listened to
23 these songs. So if the neighbours say that that's the way it was, my ad
24 hoc reaction was to accept that, which is not to say that something like
25 that did not happen in the next-door cafe, the Grujicic family place.
1 Q. Since you did not come to the cafe that was held by
2 Mr. Krnojelac's son, do you allow for the possibility, or were you told by
3 the neighbours that, just before the conflict broke out, persons of Muslim
4 ethnicity also came to that cafe?
5 A. Well, I should not be telling you all of this because I assume
6 that you were one of the persons surrounded by various members of the
7 population and various friends. It would be illogical for me to say that
8 they did not come. They did come.
9 Before the conflict broke out, all ethnic groups socialised,
10 especially young men. It would be an idiocy, undoubtedly, to deny that,
11 that they did not come to see each other.
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. When we are talking about ethnicity, do you
13 know what is the ethnicity of Mr. Krnojelac's wife, the mother of his
15 A. I'm not saying I'm right, but as far as I can remember, his wife
16 is a good mother, a good worker, and I think that she is from a Catholic
17 family, as far as I know.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Perhaps this would be a good point to
20 take a break. I have a few more questions. I'm not going to be very long
21 but ...
22 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly. Thank you very much.
23 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
2 MR. SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. If I could just have a brief
3 word. During the break, the interpreter advised me that the witness had
4 difficulty hearing the interpretation, so I asked the usher if he could
5 turn up his volume. So hopefully there should be no problems now.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Q. Witness, yesterday in your testimony you mentioned some people and
10 told us that they had been battered. Could you now, if you can tell me,
11 and I shall give you names one by one, which rooms were they kept in?
12 Mr. Munib Veiz.
13 A. Mr. Munib Veiz was in Room 11 when he arrived. Whether he arrived
14 on the 18th or the 19th, but I saw him there. On the 19th it was
15 Room 2 -- no, excuse me, Room 11, which included -- in department 11,
16 which included four rooms.
17 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Nurko Nisic.
18 A. Mr. Nurko Nisic was not in our department, in number 19. He was
19 also in the Room 11, but it happened later. And other things also
20 happened later when many of those who had been in Room 11 and 12 and 15
21 left to another facility, an adjacent facility under the same roof but
22 with a different entrance.
23 Q. Witness, to make it quite clear and quite precise, at the time
24 when they were taken away, which room were they taken away from and which
25 room were they returned to?
1 A. They were taken from Room 12 and brought back to Room 12, that is,
2 the department. That is what we called it. But those departments had
3 several rooms.
4 Q. Yes, yes. I understand that. Thank you. When you say taken away
5 and brought back to Room 12, it concerns Mr. Munib Veiz and Mr. Nurko
6 Nisic, does it?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mustafa Kuloglija.
9 A. Mr. Mustafa Kuloglija - you pronounced it wrongly as Kologlija but
10 he's Kuloglija - he was in that same facility with the common entrance,
11 and he was in Room 12. That was the quarantine.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mandzo.
13 A. He was in the other facility. At first there was a collective,
14 that is, all the prisoners were in one facility with one entrance, but as
15 their number grew, as the number of inmates grew, other rooms were opened
16 with another entrance which could not be properly controlled, that is, one
17 could not see who came in or out. When he returned, Mandzo was in the
18 same facility as I was. I don't know which room.
19 Q. To make it quite clear, tell us, during the relevant period when
20 they were coming back from beatings, what room were you in?
21 A. I was in 15, a somewhat smaller room than other rooms. There were
22 seven or eight people, depending on the number of beds that could fit in.
23 Q. Thank you. And finally, Mr. Konjo, what room was he taken from
24 and brought back to?
25 A. Mr. Konjo was in Room 12, which was called the quarantine.
1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told us and today you were asked by the
2 Prosecutor specifically that Mr. Krunoslav Marinovic had been brought
3 beaten to the KP Dom. My question is to try to clarify it. When you
4 spoke about Mr. Nail Hodzic, was he also brought to the KP Dom beaten?
5 A. I don't know whether he was brought there beaten, I mean, Nail
7 Q. And Omer Mujezinovic, had he also been beaten already when he
8 arrived in KP Dom?
9 A. Omer Mujezinovic. I don't remember. Perhaps Uzunovic. It could
10 be a mistake.
11 Q. Do you know an individual called Omer Mujezinovic?
12 A. No. Perhaps by sight.
13 Q. And Omer Mujezinovic, was he beaten at all? Do you know him?
14 A. I can't really say whether I know him or whether I don't know
16 Q. And Mr. Zulfo Veiz. Was he also brought to the KP Dom beaten?
17 A. Yes, less.
18 Q. Does that mean he arrived beaten at the KP Dom?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Yesterday you testified that there was a room from which you heard
21 the sounds of beating and that that room had window panes painted over; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were the windows open or closed when that went on?
25 A. The windows were shut, but one could glean the outlines of people,
1 silhouettes, through those shut windows.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Now I should like to ask the usher to
3 help us to give the witness the ground plan, and I'd like to ask the
4 witness to show us the room from which those sounds reached them.
5 A. It should be the ground floor, a relatively large room, and I
6 claim that that is so.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript, I
8 shall try to explain what the witness showed. On the ground plan, ID 6/1,
9 the witness is pointing at the right-hand part of the administrative
10 building, the fourth room marked as "Sala," as "hall." S-a-l-a. Thank
12 Q. Now, the same ground plan, could you show me where is the room
13 that you were in and on what floor is that room.
14 A. This is the ground plan. So the Room 15 was about this size, and
15 it had an entrance in front of the lavatory, then another door which was
16 roughly this size of the common room and the whole length like this.
17 There were about 25 to 30 beds, and here in this part there was a room
18 with two windows with six, seven, eight beds.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE HUNT: As he was pointing, although on document 6/1, if you
21 look at 6/4, he was identifying Room 15.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you very
23 much for your assistance. That, I believe, quite suffices to identify,
24 please, the things shown by the witness.
25 Since Room 15 actually included four rooms, I will now ask the
1 usher to take Exhibit 6/4 and then the witness can show us which one of
2 those four rooms he was in.
3 A. I've forgotten. I was in -- I was in -- rather, I slept, I had a
4 bed in this room here, and it had windows here and here. It had a
5 fantastic view; that is, if you wanted to look through the window at this
6 part, and then you could go to here because it also had two windows in
7 front of the lavatory, and you could see this side. So this drawing is a
8 caricature of a drawing because the view was much better from here. So
9 this is not a good drawing because it should have been like this.
10 This is one dormitory, this is the third dormitory, and then
11 between that one and next to this one, there was a common room, and then a
12 wall. Then in this part, there was another room, 5 by 6 metres or about a
13 20- or 30-metre area, and then the entrance into the dormitory. So a room
14 in front of the lavatory, then a common room; then from this common room,
15 one entered this room with some 25 to 30 beds and this smaller one with
16 two windows which had seven or maybe eight cots.
17 This one overlooked the walls, and this one, four or six windows
18 altogether, with a view of this area here, like this. So from here, we
19 could see as far as this, and here they had the power generator. We could
20 also observe this part here. We could not see this here, that is, the
21 entrance into the canteen. So we could directly see what went on from
22 here, that is, in this direction, and everything around the gate.
23 I think this explanation suffices. And you should correct this
25 JUDGE HUNT: The room which he pointed to was the right-hand
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 bottom room within the group of rooms described as Room 15.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your
3 help. I was about to specify it for the transcript.
4 Q. My next question is as follows: Today you told us that you spent
5 four and a half months in the KP Dom, and that on various occasions when
6 you heard beatings, you also heard bursts of fire. Were those the only
7 times when you heard a shot or shots in the vicinity of the KP Dom?
8 A. No. In daytime, when they would be coming from the battlefield, I
9 guess, there would be some gunfire but very little. At night there was
10 hardly any other gunfire except this one, at least in the vicinity.
11 Therefore, I'd need, perhaps, a little more time to paint for you
12 that picture of what it looked like. Between the exit, as they call it
13 chronologically, it happened as of 6.00 or 7.00 p.m. until about 12.00 or
14 half past twelve or 1.00 at night.
15 If the Court permits and if the Chamber wants me to, I can, I
16 believe, describe very graphically the cries of pain, screams, dull blows,
17 with intermittent bursts of fire around half past eleven, 12.00, half past
18 twelve. Screeches, whether it was a Lada car, and I know the sound of the
19 engine, or whether it was a Golf. But one of those two vehicles, I'm 100
20 per cent sure, took away those half-dead people from the administrative
21 people in the direction of the bridge. I did not see that, but I have,
22 I'm certain to this day, I have this 100 per cent clear image as to how
23 these things happened.
24 If you want me to explain further, I can do that.
25 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. Please tell me, how far is it from
1 the main gate of the KP Dom to the bridge on the Drina?
2 A. I cannot give you it down to the last metre, but I can tell you
3 that it could be about 70 or maybe 80 metres from the main gate, or even,
4 I would allow, perhaps 100 metres. It's more difficult to say, as the
5 crow flies. But from our room, it could not have been more than 100, 120,
6 or I'll allow 150 metres, as the crow flies, to the beginning of the
8 Q. Thank you. Will you agree with me that the Drina is a mountain
9 river and that one can hear it, that it has its own rumble?
10 A. I don't know how familiar with geography you are, but I guess you
11 are not particularly familiar with geography. If the Drina were a
12 mountain river, people would never be able to swim in it. The Drina was a
13 major magnet for people from the continent to come and swim in it.
14 Q. Are you aware that the investigators simulated the throwing of
15 bodies from the bridge and that it could not be heard in the KP Dom? Are
16 you quite sure that what you heard was the throwing of bodies into the
18 A. Well, simulation or no simulation, but, sir, had you been in my
19 shoes, had you been in my place, you would have also created in your mind
20 an image such as the one that I am describing. You wouldn't have had a
21 slightest doubt if it was simulation or reality.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
23 questions, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination?
25 MR. SMITH: Just a couple of questions, Your Honour.
1 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:
2 Q. Witness, you mentioned to my learned friend that in a previous
3 statement made to an investigator at the Tribunal, that you described
4 Mr. Krnojelac as having de jure power and Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic as
5 having de facto power. Were they the terms that you used?
6 A. They are.
7 Q. Can you describe what you mean by de jure power, Mr. Krnojelac's
8 de jure power?
9 A. De jure means legally; de facto means in reality. So, and that is
10 my opinion, he was the warden who performed those duties which were within
11 his jurisdiction; but de facto, in reality, larger powers in the discharge
12 of certain duties were vested in those two that I mentioned.
13 Q. Do you know who vested those powers in those two people that you
14 mentioned, Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic?
15 A. I think - I cannot, of course, say that this is indeed so - but I
16 think that it was the type of organisation, that it was simply a form of
17 organisation in which the Crisis Staff, which was on the outside but
18 nevertheless had a major influence, and also the military police played a
19 major role. So, organisationally speaking, the functioning of all that,
20 those two had more control than a man who was the warden.
21 Q. In that sense, are you saying that they exercised the power of the
22 warden? Is that what you're saying, or is it something else?
23 A. Yes, I think it's something along those lines. I cannot really
24 say for certain what the internal organisation was. But I'm referring to
25 people who were carrying out not the policy but what was to be done with
1 inmates, whether it was in the organisational sense of the word or perhaps
2 some other - security, maltreatment, solitary confinement, so on and so
3 forth. But I think that those two were carrying out the tasks that had
4 been given them. Who had given them, I cannot say.
5 Q. And you stated that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. What
6 responsibilities did he have? Do you know?
7 A. I'm not aware of his responsibilities or powers. I know that he
8 was the warden of the prison.
9 Q. It's the Defence case that Mr. Krnojelac was only in charge of the
10 economic facility and not in charge of the detention of the Muslim
11 detainees. Do you have an opinion on that?
12 A. I don't think that was the case. He was the warden of the KP Dom,
13 of the penitentiary, and it was within his jurisdiction, was the KP Dom as
14 an entity, and there was only one man who acted as its warden. There were
15 several so-called work units, work units or department or whatever they
16 called them, and which before the war functioned as, say, a Work Unit
17 Drina, and it was responsible for organising furniture production. It had
18 its farm, it had its catering unit, it had its fishpond, and so on and so
19 forth. It had different departments, but all of them were under the
20 jurisdiction of the KP Dom warden, and they were all funded by the
21 Republican budget through the Ministry of the Interior.
22 Q. Thank you. And one last question. You were asked about your
23 meeting with Mr. Krnojelac when you were washing the carpets in the prison
24 yard, and you mentioned in your evidence that you spoke to Mr. Krnojelac
25 about -- with concerns about your uncle. My friend then asked you a
1 question: "Later that same day, did Mr. Todovic" --
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe I'm putting the
3 cart before the horse, but I do not think that such a question can be
4 asked in redirect. But I see that my learned friend has -- is using it as
5 an introduction to the next question, which was my question during the
6 cross-examination. So perhaps I should wait for the question to be
8 JUDGE HUNT: I think that might be a good idea.
9 You proceed with the evidence, Mr. Smith.
10 MR. SMITH:
11 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Krnojelac in the yard about your uncle, was
12 Mr. Todovic there at that time?
13 A. Todovic was not there at the time. He arrived some 10 or perhaps
14 15 minutes later.
15 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Witness. You may now leave.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Witness, you may now leave, but will you
19 wait until the blinds have been pulled down, when you'll be escorted from
20 the courtroom.
21 Is Witness 182 the next one? We'll have to wait for that witness
22 to be brought in. Apparently he or she has to be brought from some
24 MR. SMITH: I am unaware, but my friend may be able to assist.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is here in the house and just has
1 to be brought in from the witness room.
2 JUDGE HUNT: The usher warned me that it may take a few minutes,
3 that's all.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE HUNT: The usual list of pseudonyms to which the witness
6 will be referred to, headed "FWS-182," will be Exhibit P406 and it will be
7 under seal.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration in the
10 document that's being shown to you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, Witness.
14 WITNESS: FWS-182
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
17 Q. Good day, Witness.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
20 Q. Would you speak a little bit louder so that the interpreters can
21 hear your voice.
22 A. Very well. Very well.
23 Q. Witness, you have been granted the protective measure that you had
24 requested, and you have a sheet of paper in front of you. No?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can the witness please be given the Exhibit 4
1 or 6.
2 Q. This sheet in front of you, you see a number on top of it, the
3 number 182. That's your pseudonym. Below this number there is a name.
4 Is that your name?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the date below this name, is that your birth date?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Witness, on that same sheet you have three more names, and
9 whenever you would like to refer to these people listed there, would you
10 please not say the name but the number because these are also protected
11 witnesses. You understand that?
12 A. Very well.
13 Q. Witness, where were you born?
14 A. Foca.
15 Q. What is your ethnicity?
16 A. Bosniak Muslim.
17 Q. Are you married?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you have children?
20 A. I have two children.
21 Q. Where did you live before the war?
22 A. In Foca.
23 Q. And in which neighbourhood?
24 A. In the centre of Foca, the very centre.
25 Q. What was your profession before the war?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I was a technical producer in a particular organisation.
2 Q. And when you say "producer," that means you just have to do the
3 technical matters related to the job or were you also a kind of reporter?
4 A. I worked as a journalist for a different organisation and also for
5 this organisation that I worked for from time to time.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: [Previous translation continues] ... session?
8 I just wanted to ask, because I just wanted to ask him where he worked.
9 JUDGE HUNT: It would be quicker, would it not, if we just had it
10 written down?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but it's just one particular question.
12 JUDGE HUNT: All right. We'll go into private session.
13 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE HUNT: We're now in open session.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Were you a member of any political party before the war?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What kind of party was it?
10 A. The Party of the Reformist Forces.
11 Q. Was this in an ethnically mixed party?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did it cooperate in any way with the SDA or the SDS?
14 A. No way.
15 Q. Why do you say so vehemently, "No way"?
16 A. Because it was not a nationalist party. It was a party that
17 brought together the reformist forces. It was a party that focused on
18 economic programmes. It is the party of the former Prime Minister of
19 Yugoslavia, Ante Markovic who managed to bring about a recovery of
20 Yugoslavia in an economic sense.
21 Q. And why did your party not want to cooperate with the other two?
22 A. Because pre-election rallies of these nationalist parties were
23 already being held, it so happened that I followed these rallies of these
24 parties. They wanted to make their own ethnic groups homogenous.
25 However, we were multiethnic, so to speak. There were Serbs, Croats,
1 members of all ethnic groups in our party.
2 Q. Did you attend any party meeting or assembly of the SDS?
3 A. In view of the job I had, I was duty-bound to do so from time to
4 time and I did so, of course. Yes, I did attend the meetings of these
6 Q. What was the main position of the SDS towards other ethnic
7 groups? Could you describe it?
8 A. First of all, they wanted to homogenise the people, so to speak,
9 at these pre-election rallies; they wanted to organise the people in that
10 way. They were blaming the communists, the reformists, the Bosniak
11 people. They were saying that they had to take power because they were
12 being threatened, that they faced the threat of being exterminated. Those
13 were the major overtones. There was warmongering. It was like that, sort
15 Q. When you say "they," you mean the Serbs were threatened, the Serb
16 people were threatened?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Do you recall any particular things they said, and who said that?
19 A. I remember at one such pre-election rally where Mr. Karadzic was
20 present, Mr. Maksimovic, Mr. Ostojic, the late Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic,
21 Mr. Kilibarda, they spoke in such a tone. One professor from Foca,
22 Krunic, asked what the generals in Montenegro will do. He asked Professor
24 Q. What is the importance of asking for the generals of Montenegro?
25 What does it mean?
1 A. I was a bit frightened by that because if they didn't manage to
2 take over power completely through the elections, they would use other
3 means too. That's how I understood it. When they said "generals," I was
4 a bit frightened already at that point. I understood "other means" as
5 meaning force, something like that. That was my understanding.
6 Q. When you heard this being said, what year was it or what
7 particular time was it?
8 A. Pre-election, 1990.
9 Q. And when they addressed -- at meetings, the SDS, when they
10 addressed the Muslims, the group of Muslims, how did they address them?
11 Did they use particular terms?
12 A. They said, "Alija wants his own Dzamahirija. They want an Islamic
13 state. They are balijas. They have not lived there for centuries. It is
14 where Serbs always lived. It is their own old Herzegovina from way back.
15 They want to return all of that. They want it to be their own," things
16 like that.
17 Q. When you say they wanted it for their own, does that mean that
18 they wanted to -- what did you understand? Physical separation, or just
19 to have the power?
20 A. Separation, physical. If they do not succeed by political means,
21 then they would resort to all means, as I said a minute ago.
22 Q. Did they regard or express in their speeches that the enemy --
23 that the Muslims were the enemies of the Serbs? Did you hear anything of
25 A. Inter alia the Muslims and the communists then. I remember now
1 that some would say -- Mr. Kilibarda, because in Foca there were some
2 members of the Montenegrin people there as well, he sort of addressed them
3 to a greater extent. Mr. Koljevic, the late Mr. Koljevic, was talking
4 more about the former Yugoslavia, the communists, the reformists.
5 Mrs. Biljana Plavsic spoke more about the Muslims. It was in that sense
6 that they were enemies, communists, reformists, and Muslims.
7 Q. We have already heard -- other witnesses have explained to us the
8 position of certain politicians. But Mr. Kilibarda, what was his
9 position? Who was he?
10 A. Radical, as far as the Bosniak people and Bosnia were concerned.
11 At that time, Mr. Kilibarda, Professor/Dr. Kilibarda, was the leader of a
12 party in Montenegro, the peoples' party, the radical party. I really
13 cannot remember now. Mr. Kilibarda is in Sarajevo now. He is the
14 representative of Montenegro in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. How did the ordinary, local people, the inhabitants of Foca,
16 respond to such speeches? Did they affect their daily life?
17 A. Well, those that I was in contact with got to be afraid. At least
18 the people I was in contact with, they were frightened.
19 Q. As a consequence of these speeches and this atmosphere in Foca,
20 did the local people arm themselves?
21 A. Believe me, it's hard for me to say. Later - by later, I mean
22 during 1991, I mean after the elections, when the nationalist parties had
23 already won the elections - it seems to me that it started then. It was a
24 public secret, so to speak, that it had already started. We had heard
25 over the media that some trucks with weapons had already been stopped, and
1 the impression we got on the basis of this information, and it turned out
2 to be so, was that these weapons were going to the Serb people, the Serb
4 Q. When did you work for the last time before the war?
5 A. I have to say that I worked regularly on the 4th of April,
6 regularly. I went one more time but that was, well, voluntary; but I was
7 escorted too.
8 Q. Why did you stop working?
9 A. You couldn't get to work anymore physically.
10 Q. You mean the war broke out and that is why you stopped?
11 A. In a legal sense, the war hadn't started yet. But after two or
12 three days, it did start. There were some forces in Foca already, some
13 military forces.
14 Q. Do you recall when the war broke out in Foca, what day it was?
15 The actual fighting.
16 A. I don't know if I'll be making a mistake if I say that this was
17 between the 7th and the 9th of April.
18 Q. Before the 7th or the 9th of April, the institution you worked in,
19 was it taken over; if so, by whom?
20 A. Yes, they did. It was taken over by the locals in uniform and
21 with masks, those socks over their faces. They were also in uniform.
22 Soldiers in uniform with an emblem stating the Serb Voluntary Guards.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
25 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, would you pull those microphones a little
1 closer to you so that you are being heard, and speak into the microphones
2 because the interpreters are having difficulty hearing you. Thank you.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Witness, when the war, actually, the fighting broke out, did you
5 participate in this fighting at any point in time?
6 A. Not at any point in time.
7 Q. Did you have a weapon?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Did you ever use it?
10 A. Never.
11 Q. When the war broke out, did you try to leave Foca?
12 A. I tried. I didn't succeed.
13 Q. Why was that? Why didn't you succeed?
14 A. Because already by the 15th, one could not leave Foca, and
15 actually, I was arrested already on the 14th.
16 Q. When you say 15th and 14th, you mean April, April 1992?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The fighting in Foca, did it occur all over Foca or did you
19 observe certain parts to be under attack?
20 A. Since I was not in my apartment, I was in my neighbour's
21 apartment, I could see where the shells were coming from. This was from a
22 hill outside Foca. That neighbourhood is called Sukovac or Siste or
23 something like that. It's between the Zabrana and the Drina.
24 Q. And these neighbourhoods you just mentioned, are these Muslim
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Those are Muslim neighbourhoods towards which the shells were
3 Q. And the shells, where did they come from? Could you observe
5 A. In my estimate then, it could have come from Zabrana above Foca.
6 Zabrana is what it's called. Then there is also this neighbourhood called
7 Cerezluk, Cerezluk. That's where the shells were coming from.
8 Q. What kind of neighbourhoods are these, ethnically speaking?
9 A. Cerezluk was, it seems to me, at least 90 per cent Serb whereas
10 Zabrana was a mountain lodge. It wasn't a neighbourhood. Actually, we
11 heard that there were cannons dug in there even before the war, in
13 Q. Where did you go after the initial fighting?
14 A. I went to the outskirts of Foca with my father and aunt, to my
15 sister's place.
16 Q. Does that neighbourhood have a particular name, and where is it
17 situated in Foca?
18 A. The neighbourhood is called Zubovici. It is between Foca and an
19 industrial neighbourhood called Brod on the Drina.
20 Q. Why did you go there?
21 A. It was no longer safe. Everybody started running away from Foca.
22 My neighbours told me. They all started fleeing. We stayed there on our
23 own. And I said, "Let's go up to my sister's. It's probably safer
24 there." So that's where we went for safety, security reasons.
25 Q. When you came to your sister's, were you the only people going
1 there, taking shelter there, or were there other people already?
2 A. I saw -- I saw about ten more people. There were women and
3 children. About ten people that I saw there and whom I did not know.
4 Q. And how long did you stay at your sister's?
5 A. Until the 14th of April.
6 Q. While you were in your sister's house, did you take part in any
7 discussions with the local Serbs or did you learn about it?
8 A. No. I did not talk to them directly, but local Serbs did come to
9 see my sister's husband to -- took over something, because it was the time
10 when the guards -- there were some guards even before the war and
11 everybody seemed to look after their interests, after their houses. I
12 mean, both sides, Bosniaks and Serbs too, of course. I saw there were
13 some people with some hunting rifles, some other barrels, and those who --
14 that is, Serbs, neighbours who came. They came to talk it over, to see
15 that they did not attack one another but to look after one another.
16 Q. Some of the people in your sister's house had their hunting
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the Serbs that came to the house, did they come in an official
20 capacity or were they just neighbours?
21 A. It was always a delegation of sorts. I remember them. Ilija
22 Calasen, Angel Stamenov; Krunic, whose first name is Vojislav. I can't
23 remember. Krunic. But they knew one another, and they came several
24 times. They were saying that they should not attack one another, to look
25 after one another. The next time they came and asked for weapons to be
1 handed over. That is how I realised that they were a delegation of some
2 organisation or other.
3 Q. Did they tell -- why -- who requested this surrender of weapons?
4 I mean, in which name did they come?
5 A. I think they came on behalf of the SDS.
6 Q. What made you think that?
7 A. At that time, the SDS had already seized the power. It was the
8 leading party, and they were members of that party.
9 Q. While you were at your sister's house, did you get any information
10 of what was going on in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
11 A. We could hear it on the radio and other media, but we listened to
12 the radio, naturally, and we could hear what was going on in Zvornik, for
13 instance, or Visegrad. Horrible things were happening there too.
14 Q. What was happening there? What did you hear?
15 A. In Zvornik some tanks had already arrived there. Arkan's men had
16 arrived there. In Visegrad too. They were taking away people. Ugly
17 things were happening.
18 Q. When you say they were taking away people, what kind of people?
19 From the --
20 A. Bosniaks.
21 Q. You said that you were arrested on the 14th or 15th. What time of
22 the day did this happen and how?
23 A. I'm sorry. It was the 14th. I mentioned the 15th in relation to
24 something else. But if I may, I will go back just because why I mentioned
25 the 15th. I'd like to explain. Because allegedly the authorities in Foca
1 had said that one could leave Foca by the 15th towards Gorazde, not
2 towards Tjentiste. That is what we had heard.
3 Q. What exactly did you hear about leaving Foca? Who announced
5 A. That who wanted could leave, that is, go across the bridge, the
6 one that was demolished, that people could go towards Gorazde if they
7 wanted, but that nobody could go towards Tjentiste, that is, Herzegovina
8 and other places, and that the 15th was the deadline, that on the 15th,
9 they would close it down and nobody would be able to leave after that.
10 Q. Who announced this and how? Was it on the radio or how else?
11 A. We heard it while I was at my sister's. One could still go down
12 to Foca; that is, some could go down to Foca and then come to us and bring
13 us news.
14 Q. And which body announced this? Do you know? Which institution?
15 A. The SDS, I guess, because they were already ruling the town.
16 Q. Yes. Would you please now tell us how you got arrested.
17 A. Since those men with rifles had left, run away, or what do I know,
18 there were four or five men left behind in our house. Five men with their
19 women and children were left behind, so that we were alone in that house
20 and we were hiding in a room. Then fire started around the woods there;
21 that is, we could hear those projectiles hitting the roof and tiles being
23 Then a group of them, of about 20 wearing olive-grey uniforms
24 came, and the neighbour knocked. He also had a house nearby. He knocked
25 and they took us out into that yard. Wife, children, and more people
1 arrived from some other villages, and there were about 20 of us men and
2 there were women and children too.
3 Q. You said a neighbour came -- neighbours came to take you out in
4 the yard. What neighbours? The ethnicity and how they were dressed,
5 could you tell us?
6 A. Yes. He was Bosniak, wearing civilian. May I give you the name?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. (redacted)
10 Q. These soldiers with weapons and uniforms, who were they?
11 A. I did not know them.
12 Q. What ethnicity did they have?
13 A. I believe they were Serbs.
14 Q. To which army did they belong when they were soldiers?
15 A. They had olive-grey uniforms, and that was the uniform of the
16 former JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army.
17 Q. You said you were taken into the yard. Where were you taken then?
18 A. We were taken to Brod Na Drini, which was an industrial locality,
19 an industrial area, to the premises of a company called Ozren.
20 Q. Did the soldiers tell you why they took you away from the house?
21 A. They singled out men; left women and children behind. They said
22 it was for safety's sake.
23 Q. Safety from what? Whose safety? Your safety?
24 A. Our safety.
25 Q. But how was this safety -- your security threatened at that time?
1 Did they explain why you needed to be taken somewhere to be safe?
2 A. At that point, I understood it to mean that worse people were
3 coming and that they would kill us all. That is how I understood it.
4 Q. The other men who were taken to Ozren with you, who were they?
5 Can you tell us their names? The Bosniaks, I mean.
6 A. (redacted)
7 (redacted), and those who were with me; that is, (redacted)
9 (redacted), and I can't remember. It was a long time ago.
10 Q. How long were you kept at Ozren company?
11 A. Three days. Three days.
12 Q. During these days, were you able -- could you have left the
13 premises or were you actually detained there?
14 A. Detained and guarded by guards.
15 Q. Those few people that were taken there together with you, were
16 they the only people being detained there or were there more?
17 A. We were the first ones to arrive, but then women and children,
18 more men arrived. Some had already been beaten, I can put it freely that
19 way, because one had broken ribs. We were about 45 in that room.
20 Q. These people in the room, these 45, what ethnicity did they have?
21 A. Bosniaks, all of them. And there was a lady whose first name was
22 Ankica and who was married to a Bosniak.
23 Q. Any of these people, if you can tell us, were any of them involved
24 in fighting, or were they all civilians?
25 A. They were all civilians.
1 Q. Did the soldiers mistreat you, or any of the other people in
3 A. They took out some for examination, and some did not come back or
4 came like this one who had been beaten up. They did not ill-treat me
5 bodily but, yes, they did mentally. This guard would come, put the barrel
6 of his weapon against your forehead and threaten to kill you, so that was
7 a kind of ill-treatment. And also because we had nothing to eat. In
8 three days, they only gave us some stale bread, nothing else.
9 Q. Where were you taken after these three days?
10 A. We were taken to a room. It was the depot of the former reserve.
11 It was called Solana, salt storage. But this is on the other side of
12 Foca, at the other end of Foca.
13 Q. What is the name of this other end? What is the name of this
14 place you were taken to?
15 A. Livade is what they called it.
16 Q. Were all the detainees from Ozren taken there or only some?
17 A. Not women and children, they were not brought from Ozren. And
18 some of those who were taken did not come back. But at any rate, the
19 whole room at Ozren was vacated.
20 Q. When you arrived at Livade, were there already other persons
21 there; if so, how many?
22 A. Yes, there were other people there. My father was there too
23 because he was detained before me, perhaps a day or two before me. There
24 were many other people, 30 or maybe 40. They sat shivering. Now when I
25 remember what they looked like, their faces had been deformed. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 recognised some by their voices but I could not recognise their faces.
2 One of them had his mouth somewhere here. You know, it was horrible to
3 look at them.
4 JUDGE HUNT: At the time the witness said that, he was pointing
5 near to his right ear.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, do you know the name of this person who had his mouth
8 actually on the other side of the face?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. What was the name?
11 A. Kruno Marinovic, a Croat.
12 Q. How long did you stay at Livade?
13 A. Between two and three hours, something like that.
14 Q. Where were you taken next?
15 A. We were put on trucks in the evening and then we arrived at KP
17 Q. Which day was that, then?
18 A. Well, it could have been the 17th or maybe the 18th.
19 Q. Of April?
20 A. April, yes.
21 Q. Were all the people who were kept in Livade taken to KP Dom with
22 you? Was Livade vacated?
23 A. In this room where I was, that is, at the salt storage, I think
24 so, yes. Because there were several truckloads, there were quite a number
25 of them, and I think that we all arrived, yes.
1 Q. How long did you stay at the KP Dom?
2 A. Twenty-eight months, that is, until August 1994.
3 Q. Those who took you there, did they tell you why you were taken to
4 the KP Dom?
5 A. No, they did not.
6 Q. Did you ever find out why you were detained in KP Dom?
7 A. Because I'm a Bosniak, a Muslim.
8 Q. Were you ever charged or convicted afterwards, while you were in
9 the KP Dom?
10 A. No, never.
11 Q. Do you know if any of those who were arrested together with you
12 were ever charged officially with whatever crime?
13 A. Never.
14 Q. When you arrived, who received you at KP Dom?
15 A. It was night-time so I could not see, but there were some
16 uniformed, camouflaged individuals. But there were all sorts of people
17 and they immediately put us in one room, in the quarantine. It was
18 raining and dark so that I could not see. I could not see the faces; I
19 could not recognise anyone.
20 Q. Were you searched when you arrived in the KP Dom?
21 A. We were searched only after we arrived in that room. That was the
22 quarantine, that is, Room 12, where they searched us. There I saw that I
23 did not know those men, and I realised from their speech that they were
24 not locals, that they were not from our town, because one could hear a
25 Montenegrin accent and some of the accents from Serbia.
1 Q. You said there were these people -- these people had all sorts of
2 uniforms. Were they soldiers?
3 A. They had weapons. Some had camouflage trousers; some wore leather
4 jackets; some had bandannas. Some of them, I guess, were soldiers; some
5 could have been mercenaries or something like that.
6 Q. Were you mistreated on your arrival, or any others from your
8 A. Not at the arrival but during our stay in that room. We were
9 about 45 there, on some beds which had only the springs and nothing else.
10 It was cold, I remember.
11 Q. When you arrived, could you tell who was in charge of the prison
12 at that time?
13 A. No, I cannot.
14 Q. Were you registered when you arrived or any time later?
15 A. Later, yes. At that time, no.
16 Q. Who registered you and when?
17 A. The first attempt to register us was in April, and it could have
18 been the 25th of April or thereabouts, 26th. They came from the
19 International Red Cross. I remember the name of the lady who introduced
20 herself to us, Ms. Hady [phoen]. And they described the room that we were
21 in, and there were 40 of us, and they went to other rooms to register
23 We learned later on that they had stopped the registration and
24 turned them back, turned them away. And I later on learned that they had
25 seized their documentation and their car.
1 Then the second time was in 1993, mid-1993.
2 Q. When you say they stopped -- they stopped the ICRC, who is
3 "they"? Who is "they" who stopped the registration?
4 A. The guards stopped them. At that time, the locals, that is, the
5 former guards of the penitentiary, they had already begun working there
6 again and they were the ones who stopped them.
7 Q. Witness, when I asked you if you were registered, I was not
8 actually thinking about the ICRC, but I would like to know if you were
9 registered by the KP Dom authorities at a point in time.
10 A. No, never, never.
11 Q. You mentioned that you were in Room 12, the so-called quarantine.
12 Where was that room? If you tell us the floor where it was.
13 A. It was the ground floor. The first entrance, ground floor, on the
14 right-hand side.
15 Q. Was there any other room on the left-hand side, and if so, which
16 room, which number?
17 A. Yes, there was. Room 11.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think this clarifies the
19 matters enough, and I don't think there is any dispute what the witness is
20 talking about, and I don't want to show him the floor plan. I don't think
21 it's necessary. But if the Defence dispute him being in 12 and 11 and
22 knowing what he's talking about ...
23 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest you wait and see if there is a dispute
24 and if there is, you can come back to it by leave if necessary. We don't
25 want to do this with every witness.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That's what I thought.
2 Q. How long did you stay in Room 12?
3 A. In Room 12 I spent about three days there, three days.
4 Q. How many detainees were with you in that Room 12?
5 A. I just said it. About 40, 45 detainees. While -- excuse me.
6 While we were there they kept bringing in more people, just throwing
7 people in, not taking them in but throwing them in. I know that one is
8 Mandzo. I can't remember his first name. Salko, I believe. He had a
9 bloody bruise under his eye. (redacted)
11 (redacted). And they brought our physician, our
12 physician who had also been detained, to dress these wound that he had.
13 That was in that Room 12 that I was in.
14 Three days later I was -- rather, I had asked the man who had
15 brought in some bag of stale bread, I asked to be taken to Room 11 because
16 I had seen my father there. He did indeed take me -- transfer me to
17 Room 11. I believe it was on the third day.
18 Q. The person you asked and actually allowed your transfer to
19 Room 11, was it a regular guard or was it one of these soldiers? Who was
21 A. He was a uniformed man, an olive-grey uniform. People used to
22 call him Uco, "Teach." He spoke with a Montenegrin accent, but I didn't
23 know him otherwise.
24 Q. How long did you stay in Room 11?
25 A. For about two or three days, perhaps, thereabouts. Two or three
2 Q. And how many detainees were with you in Room 11?
3 A. Well, if I say between 80 and 100, of that order.
4 Q. Where were you taken next, into which room?
5 A. We were taken to Room 15.
6 Q. And Room 15, where was it in the building? Do you know the
8 A. Well, if we count the ground floor as the first storey, then it
9 would be the first storey.
10 Q. Do you know why you were taken from Room 11 to 15? Did anything
11 happen before you were moved?
12 A. We all had to go for interrogation, for examination, and I went
13 too. I was interviewed by Koprivica, by investigator Koprivica. He also
14 interviewed my father. He said that he was vouching for us and that he
15 would send us to a room which would be safer and where some select people
16 would be kept.
17 Q. Did you know Mr. Koprivica from before the war, and who was he?
18 A. Yes, I knew him well. He also used to work for the same
19 organisation as I did for a while and then had moved over to the Ministry
20 of the Interior. But we were friends, close friends.
21 Q. Did Mr. Koprivica indicate why Room 15 would be safer?
22 A. Well, something like safer, but the gist of it was -- I'm not
23 trying to offend anyone, but just to have some town dwellers, people that
24 he knew, people who were urban dwellers. That is how I understood that.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.
1 JUDGE HUNT: It's actually 1.00. We will adjourn now and resume
2 at 2.30.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, you have told us before the break that you were in Room
5 15. How long were you in this room; do you recall?
6 A. I think until August. The 29th of August or the beginning of
7 September, something like that.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
9 microphone again.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, can you move up again towards the microphone
11 so that you can be heard.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
13 Q. And which year?
14 A. 1992.
15 Q. Were other detainees brought to your room after you came -- to
16 this Room 15 after you were taken there?
17 A. I don't know about that period, but afterwards I was returned to
18 Room 15 again.
19 Q. Yes. What was the highest number of detainees in Room 15 at that
20 time, this time from April to August 1992?
21 A. Somewhere between 40 and 45.
22 Q. Did you know these detainees from before the war?
23 A. I knew many.
24 Q. What was the ethnicity of the detainees you met in all these
25 rooms? I mean Room 11, Room 12, Room 15. What was the ethnicity of these
2 A. Bosniak.
3 Q. And what age? What was the variety of age of the people you met
4 there in these three rooms?
5 A. From 14 to 80. In our room -- I'm sorry, the sound is bad. There
6 is an echo in my headphones.
7 JUDGE HUNT: That's a matter which can only be cured, I think, by
8 the technical people. Try it again.
9 A. From 14 to the age of 80, with one exception. In our room, number
10 15, there was a little girl who might have been about seven years old.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
12 Q. Were these people all civilians? Could you tell?
13 A. All were civilians. All were civilians.
14 Q. Were sick people among you?
15 A. There were sick people too.
16 Q. You yourself, were you actually as well a sick person?
17 A. That's right. In addition to myself, there were patients who had
18 tuberculosis, who had TBC. They were brought from the local hospital.
19 They also had lice; they had been infected by lice. There were people who
20 also had heart problems, asthma. There were lots of health problems so we
21 even separated them in a room so that we would not all be in touch.
22 Q. What did you suffer from?
23 A. I had an ulcer on the duodenum.
24 Q. Was your condition serious so that you needed medical treatment?
25 A. In every respect, because I could not eat all kinds of food. This
1 is a stomach problem; it requires a special diet and it also requires
2 mental rest, psychological rest. But we didn't have any of that. So in
3 the -- within one month's time, I was in very bad shape. I was really in
4 a critical condition.
5 Q. Did you do anything to get this -- to get medical treatment?
6 A. I tried and many others tried. We tried through the guards there
7 to get in touch with the warden. Some succeeded, others didn't. I
8 managed to get in touch with the warden. I managed to because I did it
9 through a guard whom I knew. We wrote about our wish to be seen by the
10 warden, and this guard took me there so that I could seek medical
11 assistance and help for my father.
12 Q. Who was the warden?
13 A. The warden was Mr. Krnojelac.
14 Q. How do you know that?
15 A. They told us that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. The guards told
16 us you had to report to the warden. You hear about everything.
17 Everything is known.
18 Q. Was there a particular guard who told you that Mr. Krnojelac was
19 the warden?
20 A. No. We heard it just like that.
21 Q. And to get in touch with the warden, what did you actually do?
22 Did you write kind of a written request to see him?
23 A. Yes. Many wrote them. I said a few minutes ago that I also wrote
24 at the insistence of this guard whom I knew. He once took me to see the
1 Q. The guard whom you knew, who was that?
2 A. (redacted), Milenko Elcic. (redacted)
4 Q. Does that mean he's about your age or do you even know his birth
6 A. (redacted), but I don't know his birth date.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, to help you find a reference, we
8 have this list of stuff that is Prosecution Exhibit P3, and number 34 in
9 this list, that is actually the person Milenko Elcic.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
12 Q. When you wrote this written request to see the warden, did you
13 actually write to see the warden or did you write to see Mr. Krnojelac?
14 Do you recall that?
15 A. The warden. The warden.
16 Q. When did you write this request, and when did you see the warden?
17 A. It was in mid-June, June. That's when I saw Mr. Krnojelac, the
19 Q. You said that the guard Elcic took you to the warden. Where was
20 it that he took you?
21 A. He took me to the administrative building which was opposite where
22 we were staying. The room is in the ground floor. It's one of the rooms
23 on the ground floor.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, please.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
2 show the witness Exhibit 6/1A.
3 Q. Would you please point the room out that you were taken to and
4 where you met Mr. Krnojelac. On the map, please, not on the monitor.
5 A. This is building number 1, Room 15. I already said a few minutes
6 ago it was the second floor, and this was the administrative building and
7 these are the rooms. I can't remember exactly which one it is. It's one
8 of these rooms here.
9 That room only had a chair -- two chairs, a table. I mean, it
10 looked like a waiting room, as if it were used like a waiting room.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, the witness was pointing at
12 the three rooms on the ground floor called - I don't have my glasses -
13 "office." "Soba." It says here "soba." "Soba." At least that is what
14 I can say. It says "Room 1" and "Room 2." That is where he is pointing
16 Q. Thank you. That's enough. Thank you.
17 When you arrived in that room, was Mr. Krnojelac already in the
19 A. Yes, he was.
20 Q. Was there anyone else in the room or was he alone?
21 A. He was alone, Mr. Krnojelac.
22 Q. What was he wearing?
23 A. As far as I can remember, he wore a coat, blue coloured. As far
24 as I can remember. It's a bit hard for me to say, but I think it was a
25 blue coat.
1 Q. Was it a military or a civilian coat or a police coat?
2 A. I think it was a police coat.
3 Q. What was said between you and Mr. Krnojelac? What did you tell
4 him? What did he tell you?
5 A. I asked for medical assistance for myself, of course, because I --
6 my weight had already dropped to about 50 kilograms, and not only mine,
7 everybody's. We had all lost weight. And I didn't feel well, so I sought
8 medical assistance, and I asked him to have me transferred to the hospital
9 because I saw that things would not go well with me and I thought I was
11 Q. Did you tell him that you felt you were dying and that you needed
12 urgent help?
13 A. I think that Mr. Krnojelac knew that even beforehand about me, the
14 way I was, and I'm sure I told him during this contact we had, but I think
15 he knew even before.
16 Q. And how did you -- how did he respond to your request to be
17 brought to the hospital?
18 A. He said to me only that he would see what he could do.
19 Q. Did he indicate to you if he would need approval or if he could do
20 it on his own decision, transfer you to the hospital?
21 A. I only remember that he said to me, "I'll see what I can do."
22 That's what I really remember. I don't remember anything else really
23 because we only talked for about two or three minutes.
24 Q. While you talked to him, did you address him with his name or did
25 you address him with his title as the warden?
1 A. Only his title "Warden."
2 Q. Why did you do that?
3 A. Because we were told that he was the warden. We all knew that he
4 was the warden.
5 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?
6 A. Yes. Yes. Only by sight. I hadn't had any contact with him
7 before the war. Perhaps in passing. But I knew his face.
8 Q. Do you know where Mr. Krnojelac's house is situated in Foca? And
9 did you ever go there?
10 A. I don't know exactly now what the name of the street is but I know
11 the place, approximately. It is between the centre and Donje Polje. His
12 son, Spomenko, had a cafe in that house, right next to the house. I went
13 to that cafe.
14 Q. Did you go to this cafe until the war started?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was it a place that Muslims, Croats, and Serbs frequented all the
17 time, even until April 1992?
18 A. Not exactly all the time. Already in April 1992, in Foca, there
19 were these groupings. Different ethnic groups went to different cafes. I
20 didn't. But when these nationalist parties started organising their
21 election rallies and when there were already conflicts, I didn't go there
23 Q. When did you stop going there?
24 A. I really cannot remember exactly right now. 1990, 1991.
25 Q. Were you actually -- after having had this conversation with
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mr. Krnojelac, were you actually taken to the hospital?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How did you survive, then, your serious medical condition?
4 A. Thanks to some external connections, I managed to get some of the
5 medication I needed. Primarily my external connections.
6 Q. What were these external connections? Who helped you get
8 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want their name?
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
10 Q. Or if you don't want to say the names, just say the category, if
11 you have a problem with the names.
12 A. My former friends, my friends whom I associated with before the
13 war, Serbs, they helped me for some time. And then later, when the
14 International Red Cross came and when there was medical care, then they
15 helped me too. So I managed to pull through a bit.
16 Q. This external help, did that have to be done secretly or was
17 everybody aware of that?
18 A. Only secretly, and that was far from easy either.
19 Q. Did you try to approach the accused Krnojelac again to get medical
20 help and treatment?
21 A. I did on a number of occasions, but I was never received again
22 through guards.
23 Q. Did you ever try to approach him when he was in the yard?
24 A. I couldn't come close to him because I was kept in a different
25 dormitory, not in number 15 anymore. When I saw Mr. Krnojelac enter the
1 building, that is, the other building, the other entrance, I was waiting
2 at the window to see him come back so as to approach him and ask him to
3 help me.
4 Q. Where were you when -- in which room were you when you tried to
5 approach him?
6 A. It was a room with another entrance. It was either 16 or 18.
7 No. Sixteen, I think.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think it's easier when we use a photo now.
9 I would like to show the witness Exhibit 18, photo 7512.
10 JUDGE HUNT: While that's being done, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, this is
11 not, as I understand it, a voice distortion case. You can leave your
12 microphone on.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's what I thought, Your Honour, but I got
14 this little remark here from the usher who asked me to turn it off. I was
15 a little bit surprised. I thought maybe this was from the echo, because
16 of the echo. But I think it's easier for me to leave it on and we can
17 try --
18 JUDGE HUNT: Let's see how we go.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I think it's the -- yes, the bottom
21 Q. Could you point out in which room you were when you saw
22 Mr. Krnojelac.
23 A. This room. That was the room.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the ground floor
25 room on the left-hand side of the photo.
1 Q. Where did you see Mr. Krnojelac? Where was he?
2 A. You can't see it very well. There is a window on this side here.
3 This is one wing that I'm showing you. Here there is a room, and this is
4 where I was waiting for him to pass. It's right next to the door.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing, again, at building
6 2 and was pointing to the last window on the ground floor, right-hand
8 Q. But Mr. Krnojelac, where was he going? Can you show us where he
9 was going? I think we have to use the bottom photo.
10 A. I saw him enter, that is, take the stairs here, near the window
11 where I was, and then he went up. I was waiting for him to return, taking
12 the same route, to stop him then and ask him.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the somewhat
14 hidden entrance to building 3 on the photo.
15 Q. And it's hidden behind the bushes; is that correct?
16 A. It is.
17 JUDGE HUNT: When you say number 3, you mean the photograph where
18 there appears a number 3 on a yellow sticker. It's building number 1.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I just wanted to point out this number
20 3 on the sticker.
21 Q. Witness, what did you do to get Mr. Krnojelac's attention?
22 A. I called to him, I said, "Warden, could you receive me? I'm in no
23 shape at all," and he merely turned, cast an angry look at me and just
24 went on, didn't say anything.
25 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him on that occasion?
1 A. An olive-grey uniform, a military -- an officer bag, and a pistol
2 on a wide belt, in a holster.
3 Q. When did this happen, this incident when you called him without
4 getting a result?
5 A. It was -- I moved from Room 15 to 13 on the 30th of September. So
6 it could have been in early 1993, in the beginning of 1993.
7 Q. Do you know what he was doing in this building he went into?
8 A. For a while locals, local Serbs used to come here, that is, to be
9 detained. They were civilians and uniformed, and when they would come,
10 they would be kept in that part of the building. So I suppose he went to
11 see them.
12 Q. Who was with him when you saw him? Was he alone or was he
13 accompanied by someone?
14 A. Alone.
15 Q. Did you see the accused on other occasions in the KP Dom?
16 A. On another occasion when a colleague tried to escape from the
17 camp. At the time, I was in solitary confinement, and I could merely get
18 a glimpse of the platform where they had lined up other detainees, and I
19 could see him only out of the corner of my eye.
20 Q. When was that? Approximately.
21 A. 1993.
22 Q. And what was he wearing on that occasion?
23 A. A uniform again.
24 Q. Does that mean you saw him only three times altogether or did you
25 also see him on other occasions?
1 A. Only three times.
2 Q. You said that about 45 or 40 people were staying together with you
3 in Room 15, and you also mentioned your father. How long did your father
4 stay with you in Room 15?
5 A. Until the 3rd of May.
6 Q. Was he then released?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who released him? How did that come about?
9 A. A guard came, senior guard came into our room and called out
10 the -- read out the names of people who were to go out and that is how my
11 father left.
12 Q. Was he the only one who left on the 3rd of May or others as well?
13 A. No, there were other people. I can't remember. I really don't
14 know. I know that Dedovic Ramic was released. Hasan Pilav was released.
15 He had a heart condition. My father was the oldest one in the room, and
16 there are other elderly men. Except Osman Radovic, who was my age, that
17 is, born in the early 1950s, 1950 perhaps.
18 Q. And when we speak about the 3rd of May, it's 1992 or another
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Did anything happen before the 3rd of May that may be connected to
22 this release?
23 A. I tried to say that. When the International Red Cross came for
24 the first time in April, around the 25th of April, they then had the names
25 of those men who were in our room. So that could have been the reason
1 perhaps. That is my guess.
2 Q. Did your father get any release papers? Do you know? Did you
3 ever see anything on him?
4 A. I could not see anything at that time. Afterwards, my father
5 showed me a certificate releasing him and saying that he has to report to
6 the police station at regular intervals. He had such a piece of paper.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
8 show the witness the document identification number 65 from -- Your
9 Honour, this actually is a document that refers to the Witness 05, but I
10 would like to have the witness look at it and tell us if he saw a similar
11 document in his father's possession.
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Do you have the redacted version? Yes? Can
14 we please put it on the ELMO, only the redacted version.
15 A. May I add something? My father still has this document.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At least I have a redacted version.
17 JUDGE HUNT: 65A is the number on it.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 65A. That's the translation, actually. I
19 would like to --
20 JUDGE HUNT: It is redacted.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, it's redacted, yes, but I would like
22 to -- yes, we can put it on. Yes. The translation is fine, yes.
23 Q. If you, Witness, look at the original, please, and can you tell us
24 which organisation produced this certificate? When you look on the top --
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The witness has to look on the document,
1 on the original document.
2 Q. Can you read Cyrillic?
3 A. I can, yes. The Crisis Staff.
4 Q. And when you look at the bottom of the document, you see some
5 signatures. Can you tell us, first of all, the body, who these people who
6 signed it belonged to? Is it the "Authorised employees of the Serb police
7 station Foca and representatives of the military command"? Do you see
8 that on the document? That's on the --
9 A. I cannot see. I cannot really say anything about the signatures.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Above the signatures, Witness.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Above the signatures.
12 Q. I just read to you the "Authorised employees of the Serb" --
13 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And on the right-hand side you see "Crisis Staff of the Serb
15 municipality of Foca," and there's also a signature. Would you know whose
16 signature it is?
17 A. No. I do not recognise any of them. I could try now to decipher
18 them, but no, I didn't know them.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to
20 enter this document into evidence and also the translation of it, although
21 it's actually related to a different witness. But as we have heard from
22 this witness, his father has something -- such a document as well. I
23 wonder if it is possible.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'll hear what Mr. Bakrac has to say, but you
25 are tendering it only as a document which the witness has said is similar
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to that which his father still has. You're not tendering it for any
2 purposes in relation to Witness 05.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, exactly.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, have you got any problem with
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we do object because
7 this paper, this document, was part of our discussion between the Defence
8 and Prosecution about its admission into evidence. Either the Prosecutor
9 tenders it -- the reason does not matter because this document will be in
10 the evidence and will serve as evidence, and this document was one of the
11 reasons for which we met to discuss the testimony of the Witness 05. That
12 is one thing.
13 Secondly, the witness says that his father is in possession of
14 such a document. Why doesn't the Prosecution then try to get this
15 document from the witness, rather, the witness' father and then produce
16 that as an exhibit? That is why we object to the admission of this
17 document into evidence for the time being.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I don't think that you have heard what I
19 said and with which the Prosecution agreed. It is not being tendered in
20 any way in relation to Witness 05; it is being tendered solely as a
21 document similar to the one which this witness' father still has, in other
22 words, an exit permit. It's not being tendered as proof of anything in
23 relation to Witness 05. Now, when you say it's in evidence, that may be
24 technically correct, but it's not going to prove anything in relation to
25 Witness 05 at all.
1 Now, do you still object to it?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, not anymore. Thank you.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will be Exhibit P65, and that one will be
4 under seal, and Exhibit P65A, which need not be under seal.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
6 Q. Witness, besides the rooms you have mentioned before, were the
7 detainees also kept in the isolation cells?
8 A. Yes, they were. And I was in solitary confinement on several
9 occasions. Many, many people went through solitary confinement cells.
10 Q. What kind of persons were kept in the isolation cells? Was there
11 a particular category of persons who were taken there and even kept there
12 for longer?
13 A. At the very beginning, that is to say, when we came and some, I
14 don't know, 20 or so days after that, people were taken to isolation
15 cells. I know some of them and I think they were members of the SDA.
16 Afterwards, that is to say, during 1992 and until mid-1993, there
17 weren't any rules. Whoever broke any one of their rules, house rules, the
18 law, then they were taken to solitary confinement. I'm saying that
19 because while I was there in Room 15, at the very beginning, a man came
20 from an isolation cell. His name was Ekrem Tulek. He was there for 112
21 days. He was in the same room with me. Since that was July, then he must
22 have been in solitary confinement from the month of April.
23 Q. And Mr. Tulek, who was he? Was he such a member of the SDA that
24 you just mentioned?
25 A. I can't say, I'm sorry. Avdo Mehmedspahic was in solitary
1 confinement at first. He was in solitary confinement for a long time. I
2 think he was an SDA supporter.
3 Q. You yourself, you said you were taken there several times. Could
4 you please tell us when you were taken there for the first time, and why?
5 A. I was taken to solitary confinement for the following reason:
6 They found a radio set in our room, and once they searched the place, the
7 whole place - I was actually hiding that radio set so that we could listen
8 to the news and things like that - then they realised it was there. They
9 knew that I was the one who had the radio and then I went to solitary
11 Q. When was that?
12 A. That was in 1992, sometime in July or August.
13 Q. Who sent you? Who made the decision that you had to go into
14 solitary confinement?
15 A. I don't know who made the decision but I know who took me. About
16 four guards got into the room and started searching it. They searched the
17 beds and everything. They started looking for that radio. I didn't want
18 to admit to that, and then one of my acquaintances, a guard, said that it
19 was better for me to say that it was there and where it came from rather
20 than not say, because otherwise they would kill me. I handed over that
22 They took me to Savo Todovic, to an office in the administrative
23 building on the ground floor. Miro Prodanovic was also there. Savo was
24 interested in hearing who had brought me the radio in the first place. He
25 thought that somebody had brought it through external connections.
1 However, it was my father who brought me that radio when he came to visit
2 me the last time.
3 Q. How long were you in solitary confinement on that occasion?
4 A. I know that it was the entire weekend, and it was nine days
5 altogether, I think.
6 Q. While you were there, were you mistreated? Were you beaten or
7 abused otherwise?
8 A. I was mistreated by the fact that I was in an isolation cell. I
9 did not have a blanket or anything. We only had some water, whatever they
10 brought, a slice of bread for the entire day.
11 Todovic made me write something, write some kind of statement. He
12 wanted me to be a stool pigeon, to write down what was being said and
13 things like that. I didn't want to do that. He came to see me in the
14 isolation cell a few times and said that I would die there, that I would
15 never get out. He also kicked me a few times.
16 Q. The second time when you were in isolation, when was that?
17 A. I can't say exactly but I was there for ten days again, and
18 Todovic sent me to the isolation cell then. He said to one of the guards
19 to take me there. It was Milic who took me there. The procedure was the
20 same as in the first case; all of it was the same.
21 Q. And what had you done that they sent you there?
22 A. Among other things, we made that thing that you use for
23 cigarettes, cigarette holders, and we made them for guards also. We had
24 already started smuggling tobacco a bit with them, and then we made
25 bread. Todovic did not allow that. He saw me giving one Serb this
1 cigarette holder and he sent me to solitary confinement straight away.
2 Q. Were you mistreated then, on this occasion? Were you beaten or
4 A. No, except that when a guard took me out of the solitary
5 confinement cell, there was this man Milutinovic who hit me really bad.
6 Q. Do you recall when you were taken in again to isolation?
7 A. It was the third time when Zekovic, this colleague, tried to
8 escape. I mean there were lots of us in the room. I was in one of the
9 solitary confinement cells with one person, and there were others in other
10 cells. There were 20 or 30 men in isolation cells, in the plural, a lot.
11 There were two other men in my isolation cell with me. We stayed there
12 for three days.
13 Q. Why were you taken there? Did you have anything to do with this
14 escape of the one detainee?
15 A. I had nothing to do with it. However, I knew the man. We were
16 friends before the war, the man who tried to escape and I, and also during
17 our stay at the camp.
18 Then Savo Todovic first called me into one of the guard's huts and
19 Stefanovic, Predrag Stefanovic, was with him. They asked me what I knew,
20 whether he told me that he would be escaping. I didn't know that he would
21 escape so I couldn't say anything. He hit me with a rifle butt, the butt
22 of an automatic rifle, a few times. Todovic hit me a few times there and
23 then he sent me to an isolation cell.
24 Q. Do you know about these other persons that were also locked up in
25 isolation cells on that occasion? Why were they taken there? Did they
1 have anything to do with the escapee?
2 A. I can't say. In their estimate, probably. And these persons,
3 they're -- I really can't say. I can't, really.
4 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned that there were some Serb
5 prisoners in the KP Dom in building 2. Can you tell us how many and when,
6 at what time periods, they were there? From the beginning or only later?
7 A. Already in 1992, it was the locals. I mentioned there were
8 civilians and there were some in uniform. I knew many of those who were
9 there. And they came, I think, not every day, but somebody kept coming
10 and going all the time and others were coming in, so I don't know exactly
11 how many there were. But at any rate, it started in 1992.
12 Q. Right from the beginning?
13 A. Yes. No. No, sorry. Sorry. You mean from April onwards?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. After July, I think. After July they started, I think.
16 Q. And these Serbs, would you know if they were convicts or for
17 whatever reason they were there? Would you know?
18 A. I don't know the actual truth, but we had information to the
19 effect that somebody didn't want to go fight in the war, others were
20 stealing or looting.
21 Q. Were you able at that time and can you tell us now how the living
22 conditions of these Serb detainees were compared with the living
23 conditions that you yourself and the other Muslims had? Could you tell us
24 what the living conditions were in regard of food, you and the Serb
25 detainees or prisoners?
1 A. The difference was drastic. At first -- if we are to compare this
2 period -- I mean, I think, it was perhaps July. Perhaps we had 100 grams
3 of bread per day. We also had some kind of a meal like a bit of soup but
4 not a very good strong soup or anything like that. For breakfast we'd
5 get, for example, an egg or sometimes a pate, a small tin to be shared by
6 two persons. That's the way it went on and on and on and on, while these
7 detainees could even receive packages, parcels. They had a different
8 entrance altogether. They could receive visitors. They could get bread.
9 They had enough bread, whereas I, regrettably, had to steal bread, to take
10 it from various garbage cans, containers. I mean, the difference was
11 really drastic.
12 Q. When you compare the hygienic conditions they lived in and the
13 Muslims or the Croats lived in, could you compare these?
14 A. I could not go to their rooms, but I can say that our hygienic
15 conditions were basically non-existent. We could not change the bed
16 linen, we could not take a bath. It was cold, wintertime. We didn't have
17 any heating or anything. At some moment, we all got lice. I don't know
18 whether you have a word for that kind of thing. We had only cold water.
19 We had to use cold water to wash, in the toilets. That was it.
20 Q. And we do not need to go into the details -- into more details of
21 the living conditions because we have already heard other witnesses giving
22 us a lot of details in regard to this, but you have already mentioned that
23 due to the lack of food, you had very serious problems with your ulcer.
24 What about the coldness? Did you suffer any physical results due
25 to the coldness and due to the sanitary conditions you lived in?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I think that the cold affected my fingers the most. That's when
2 my fingers started getting stiff very rapidly. Now it's abated a bit. As
3 for all the rest, it is due to starvation. Hygienically, I tried to be
4 disciplined and to do whatever was possible.
5 Q. How did the living conditions affect you mentally?
6 A. Well, that's a different question altogether. I noticed -- I
7 noticed that I was really down and even more so, and then I thought I was
8 dying. I thought a lot about myself. I even thought of the very worst.
9 It is very hard to remain sane under such conditions. An empty stomach
10 puts no questions. It seems I'm hungry until the present day. I can
11 never have enough bread it seems.
12 Q. Did you become suicidal at a point in time?
13 A. That's what I said a few minutes ago, the worst thoughts.
14 Q. And what was it actually? Could you say what actually caused this
15 being suicidal? What was it?
16 A. This situation that I could not change for myself, my gradual
17 dying, suffering. I couldn't bear to see myself that way any more.
18 Everybody knew that, the guards and everyone. Everyone kept asking,
19 "Haven't you died?"
20 Q. Did someone actually die of an ulcer while you were there, and if
21 so, who was it and when did that happen?
22 A. In the beginning. Was it May? April, May. At the very
23 beginning, an acquaintance of mine in a room, I think it was Room 18 or
24 16, he was there first, or in an isolation cell, I'm not sure, but I
25 remember seeing them carrying him in a blanket to the gate. Eso Hadzic.
1 He was a taxi driver, and later on he was a driver in a company. His
2 ulcer had perforated, he bled, he was not helped, and he died.
3 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned that you were interrogated,
4 and you said that Mr. Koprivica interrogated you. What did he want to
5 know from you? Were you accused of anything particular?
6 A. Well, he didn't really interrogate me. He only wrote down on a
7 piece of paper and said that I would be out in no time, that he would
8 vouch for me, that everybody knew who I was and what I was, so that I did
9 not have any dialogue with him then.
10 Q. Was this the only time that you were interrogated or on other
11 occasions as well?
12 A. By officials, by official investigators, except that Savo Todovic
13 came and asked questions, who will smuggle cigarettes to me, who gets
14 other things there, and things like that. But as the officials, Koprivica
15 or others, Starovic and others, no.
16 Q. While you were interrogated by Mr. Koprivica, could you see if
17 other detainees were interrogated as well at the same time?
18 A. Yes. We could see that even before I went to see Mr. Koprivica,
19 that others were going for interrogation. Every detainee had to go for
20 interrogation in the beginning at the time when they started distributing
21 us around rooms.
22 Q. And these interrogators, were they policemen or soldiers?
23 A. I know that Koprivica had already worked as an investigator for
24 the police, and Vladicic too. Vladicic, I know about him from before, and
25 Koprivica; this is, they work for the police.
1 Q. When you, for instance, were interrogated, was Mr. Koprivica
2 wearing a military uniform or just civilian clothes or a police uniform?
3 A. When he interviewed me, when he interrogated me, he was in
4 civilian clothes.
5 Q. And did you have to sign a written statement?
6 A. Yes. I signed and my father did.
7 Q. Do you recall in which capacity Mr. Koprivica interrogated you, as
8 a military police officer or a police officer? Could you make that out
9 from the written statement? Could you see, for instance, what it said on
10 the header?
11 A. All I remember is the following: "I personally guarantee that
12 so-and-so," my name, "has never caused any trouble and that I know his
13 father personally, and I personally," that is, he guaranteed.
14 As I said, we did not really have any conversation. He never
15 interrogated me.
16 Q. You have already mentioned that Savo Todovic kicked you and struck
17 you once, that he and Stefanovic hit you with a rifle. This
18 Mr. Stefanovic, was he a guard, a guard of the KP Dom?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were these the only occasions where you were hit or beaten, or
21 were you beaten on other occasions as well?
22 A. I told you before, when I was in solitary confinement, but that
23 was kicking me. He did not hit me in the face or as when Milutinovic
24 slapped me in the face, no.
25 Q. This incident with Milutinovic, when did he slap you?
1 A. Milutinovic was another guard, and he slapped me when I was in
2 solitary confinement and spent two nights there. As he was taking me out
3 of that cell, that is when he did it.
4 Q. Did you see other prisoners being beaten?
5 A. On one occasion, I watched a senior guard, Slobodan, Boban was his
6 nickname and I think his last name was Pejic or Pejcic -- Pejic, rather, I
7 think. As we were returning from the canteen to our rooms, escorted by
8 the guard, on one occasion as we were entering the building, then he
9 called out, "Celik --" I think he said Celik, yes, he did, Celik, and a
10 man came down the stairs again and this one started hitting him with a
11 baton and telling him, "Why are you laughing? Is that a way to look at
12 me? How dare you look at me like that. How dare you laugh," and he
13 struck him two or three times like this with a baton.
14 Q. Were such beatings a common occurrence in the KP Dom?
15 A. We could hear it, and that was also in the beginning, that is,
16 April, May, and the first half of June. Perhaps June. From the room in
17 which we were kept, we could hear both blows and screams from many of
18 those who had been taken to the administrative building. I could hear
19 those sounds and I think they came from that direction. Many did not
20 return from those beatings on a number of occasions, and those things
21 usually happened at night. It was quiet so that one could hear very
23 Q. You mentioned the months from April to June. Are you sure about
24 the months, or could it also have been somewhat later?
25 A. Well, June, throughout June perhaps. I can't really -- believe
1 me, I can't really remember. But it went on. But I think that May, June,
2 that is the time when there was the largest number of people -- the
3 largest number of people were taken away and beaten. I can't really
5 But I know when they took away a colleague who sat next to me on
6 the bed, and whenever the door opens, we wait -- as you go into the
7 compound, then we try to see whether they will head for this entrance or
8 that entrance.
9 Once a senior guard came; I think it was Stefanovic again. He
10 started upstairs and we wanted to see which room he would open, and we
11 were all there waiting for the door -- to see which door he would open.
12 So once the door to our room was open, then we waited to see whom he would
13 call out. They called out Zulfo Veiz, who, at that time, was sitting next
14 to me. I had a black vest which a guard had brought my father -- my
15 father had left to me, so he left it to me. They took Zulfo away, after I
16 gave him this black vest, and then we could hear the blows on that vest.
17 He did not let a sound out. But the irony was that I was happy when they
18 took him rather than me away. And there were many such ...
19 Q. How did that make you feel? You felt you were lucky that they
20 took him and not you. How did that make you feel?
21 A. Well, it was just a fleeting moment. But at that moment, I felt
22 happy, I felt joy. After that I didn't, of course.
23 Q. When you said the guards came to call out detainees, did they have
24 any piece of paper or even a written or typed list from which they called
25 out detainees?
1 A. I remember that. There was a small green piece of paper, small
2 piece of green paper that Stefanovic had, and that is what they used to do
3 when they take somebody away and then bring him back again with a similar
4 piece of paper. But this small paper always came from the administrative
5 building; that is, a guard would always come from the administrative
6 building with such a piece of paper.
7 Q. You have already mentioned that you heard the sounds of beating
8 and screaming. Could you make out from which part of the administration
9 building these sounds came from?
10 A. From that same part which I indicated when I showed you where it
11 was that Mr. Krnojelac saw me, received me.
12 Q. Could you ever hear from the voices you heard who was beating a
13 detainee? Did you ever hear something so specific that you could be sure
14 who was beating?
15 A. I'm 100 per cent sure about one particular case; about others,
16 no. But on that one occasion, I heard a voice which I knew very well and
17 which I'd often heard before. It was the voice of Rajko Cicmil, and I
18 believe he died meanwhile. I did see him once in the compound, once in a
19 uniform with an officer bag and pistol, and he had a cap. Not the
20 officer's cap but a different kind of cap. I knew him because while I
21 worked for a different organisation, he was my assistant for three years.
22 Q. This Rajko Cicmil, was he a guard or was he a soldier?
23 A. Military, he had a military uniform, same as Mr. Krnojelac when I
24 saw him on that occasion, the first time.
25 Q. What did you hear him say or shout?
1 A. He said, "Confess. Own up. Own up better or we'll kill you,"
2 shouted at him, and that was it. "Own up. Tell us where it is or --"
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure.
4 A. "-- we'll kill you." That is what stuck in my memory.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
6 Q. Could you hear whom he was beating? Did you hear from the answers
7 or from the voices who was actually the victim of Mr. Cicmil?
8 A. The victim could only moan and cry for help, and not very
9 distinctly. Obviously, it must have been painful. His cries, his
10 screams, you can't really distinguish -- I mean, of course you
11 distinguish, you know what a scream is, you know what a cry of pain is, of
12 course you do, but ...
13 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you better have a look at the
14 transcript. You'll see a passage there at line 18 -- 17 where the
15 interpreters had some difficulty in understanding precisely what it was
16 the witness was saying.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Witness, you have mentioned what you heard Mr. Cicmil shout, and
19 we have in the transcript -- we lack a part. It says, "Own up. Tell us
20 where it is or," and then the interpreters have lost you. What did you
21 hear Mr. Cicmil shout?
22 A. That is what he said, "You'd better own up where they are or else
23 we'll kill you." "Better tell us where they are or else we'll kill you."
24 Q. Yes, that clarifies the matter.
25 You have already started to tell us about specific victims. Now I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 can't see the transcript but I think you spoke about Zulfo Veiz, or am I
2 mistaken? I can't see that now. Yes, I think you have already mentioned
3 Zulfo Veiz, who was with you in your room, yes?
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's Schedule C, number 29, and
5 also in the indictment, it's 5.27, the incident.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
8 Q. Witness, how often was Mr. Veiz -- Zulfo Veiz taken out? Was it
9 only on this one occasion, or was he taken out and returned?
10 A. Zulfo was taken out on several occasions and brought back. But
11 then once when he was taken away, he did not return again.
12 Q. When you saw him return, what did he look like? Could you see any
13 injuries on him?
14 A. No, I did not see any injuries. No. He told us then why he had
15 been called out. Zulfo Veiz used to work for the police before the war,
16 and it was his fellow policemen who had come and were telling Zulfo's wife
17 where he was and what his children were doing, and that is what Zulfo told
18 us. He did not -- at least we couldn't see any injuries, any
20 Q. Did he tell you that he was beaten or did he keep quiet?
21 A. I just said, he told us -- well, on at least one occasion he told
22 me, not only me but everybody who was sitting around us, that his
23 colleague had come to tell him, as I have told you, about his family.
24 Q. Do you recall any other specific person that you remember that was
25 taken out in this manner and was beaten or even disappeared?
1 A. I remember those who were with me when we were arrested. And when
2 we were arrested, I did not see it then because at that time I did not
3 know that we were arrested by Gojko Jokanovic. I didn't know his name
4 then; I learned it later. So that Halim Konjo, he had been with me at my
5 sister's. Uzunovic was another who arrived with me and never returned
7 Q. Let me finish one after the other. You said Halim Konjo. What
8 can you tell us about him? Was he taken out once or on several
9 occasions? Did you see him being beaten?
10 A. Halim had been taken out even while we were at Brod, and he was
11 with me at Brod too. They had taken all his money. He was quite
12 well-off. They took all his money, and that is what happened while we
13 were at Brod. Then they took him - at least that's what he told me - they
14 took him to the army club in the town, that that is where they took him,
15 but at that time there was a military or perhaps paramilitary police, I
16 don't know, and that they also took him there and beat him. His nickname
17 was Spona. Selimovic, I believe, was his last name, Spona, and they took
18 him there together.
19 Q. I would like you to tell us what happened to these persons in the
20 KP Dom, not so much before they arrived there but in the KP Dom.
21 Was Mr. Halim Konjo beaten while in the KP Dom?
22 A. We did not share the same room, but once he left, he never came
23 back, Halim, so that I cannot tell you anything else.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This Konjo Halim, that's C13. And he also
25 mentioned B33.
1 Q. Do you know or can you tell us what happened to Halid Konjo while
2 in the KP Dom? Not before.
3 A. Halid Konjo. We lived there until exchange, and then he was taken
4 for exchange and he did not come back. At least that is what we were
5 told, that people who were being taken for exchange, unfortunately many of
6 those who were taken for exchange are missing. But I do think that he was
7 sent to pick plums or something. It was September or October, and he did
8 not come back again.
9 Q. You mentioned already a detainee with the name Enes Uzunovic.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours this is Schedule C26, and also
11 the incident 5.29.
12 Q. What about Enes Uzunovic in the KP Dom? Was he taken out for
13 beatings? Did you see him there?
14 A. Yes, I did see Uzunovic. He was badly beaten. After what I told
15 you about that salt storage, that is how he looked too. He was all black
16 and blue. And I saw him then on the stairs. He could not walk. That was
17 the last time I saw him. That was, I think, sometime in late May. That
18 is Uzunovic.
19 Q. You said you saw him on the stairs. What does that mean? You saw
20 him return from the administration building, on the staircase, or what do
21 you mean?
22 A. From the administrative building --
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness
24 did not say where he was coming back from. This is a leading question,
25 whether he was returning from the administrative building. He only said
1 he saw him on the stairs, and the next question was whether he saw him on
2 the stairs as he was returning from the administrative building. That is
3 a leading question. So presumably the question should be whether the
4 witness saw him, where he was coming back from, and what stairs.
5 JUDGE HUNT: I think that unless you heard something that the
6 translators didn't hear, there is no reference to the administrative
7 building there in the transcript, so you should ask him that question
8 again. The damage may well have been done, but I think you should ask it
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
11 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you saw him all black and blue, and
12 you saw him on the stairs. Which stairs and where was he coming from?
13 A. Sorry. Stairs -- it is from that small garden. There are a
14 couple of stairs, and this is right next to the administrative building.
15 Ten metres -- no, perhaps 5 metres from the administrative building there
16 is a slightly raised platform and there were stairs, and that is where one
17 could see him very well on that corner. He simply was not able to walk
18 any more.
19 Q. Did you see where he was coming from?
20 A. No, I did not see that. I saw him sitting down. But I did see
21 people go through the door -- come out of the door, that is, he was
22 pushed. The door opened, that is, that entrance into the administrative
23 building. Mandzo, I think his name was, and I believe he was a male -- a
24 lab assistant. I saw him. He was practically down on his knees and hands
25 because he could not walk. They must have beaten them on the soles of his
1 feet. And he once went through there and he barely made it.
2 Q. But this is Mandzo that you mentioned you saw coming from the
3 administration building?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But the other one, this person we spoke about before, you did only
6 see him on the stairs and you do not know where he came from. Did you
7 see --
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Did you see him -- before you saw him on the stairs in this bad
10 condition, did you see him go somewhere before that? Did you see him
11 being led somewhere?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. Whom else do you recall belonging to this group of people who
14 disappeared in this time period that you mentioned?
15 A. I recall Matovic, a Croat, male nurse; Nail Hodzic; Nurko Nisic;
16 and, yes, other people too. Some I knew by sight and some I knew better.
17 Q. You mentioned Nail Hodzic. That is number C10. What did you see
18 happened to Nail Hodzic?
19 A. I did not see anything. I only saw him being taken away, that is,
20 when he went out of the room.
21 Q. And the Croat Matovic that you mentioned, what did you see?
22 A. Yes, him too. He did not come back again.
23 Q. And Nurko Nisic. You mentioned Nurko Nisic.
24 A. Nurko I did see as he was coming back from the administrative
25 building. He had some sports clothes on him, some sweatsuits or
1 something, and he was beaten up. He walked with difficulty, and he went
2 by, but where he went -- and later on I heard that he was taken to
3 solitary confinement and then out of there, taken again somewhere, but I
4 don't know where.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that is C29 and the incident
7 JUDGE HUNT: That may be enough. There are a couple of matters I
8 wanted to raise with you before we adjourn.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Now that the Defence has filed a supplement to their
11 motion, you may want to deal with that. Could you deal with it overnight
12 so that we've got the opportunity tomorrow to deal with it finally?
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but actually, we are also prepared to do
14 that now, but whatever you prefer.
15 JUDGE HUNT: I think the translators have had a pretty hard day
16 today, but if you'd like to state what your attitude is. Do you still
17 object to the medical examination?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, I didn't understand what you said.
19 JUDGE HUNT: This is the motion that the Defence has put on to
20 have their client examined, and you took the point, which was a good one,
21 that they had never identified the issue to which the examination would be
22 relevant. They've now done so. The question is: Do you still object to
23 the appointment of an examiner? If you don't, do you want your own
24 examiner appointed as well?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Actually, we want to oppose it in the way as
1 it stands for the moment, because what they are actually requesting from
2 you is to order a very specific and detailed examination, even giving the
3 scope of the examination, and I think this has to be clarified because --
4 JUDGE HUNT: Look, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't want to have to
5 debate it here. If you want to put this in writing, then they can deal
6 with it in writing in reply or they may be able to deal with it in the
7 morning orally, but I think it's not the time to be going into detail
8 about it. If you oppose it, let's see why you oppose it.
9 The other matter was have you prepared that summons for the
10 witness that both parties want to have brought in?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It is being prepared at the moment. It will
12 be presented to you tomorrow.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then. We will --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 9.30 in the morning, but
16 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, would you please discuss your problems about this
17 medical examination with counsel for the defendant so we can try and get
18 some agreement.
19 The Trial Chamber is minded to grant any such application provided
20 there is a sufficient identification of an issue. If you are concerned
21 about the examination which is sought, my own view -- I haven't discussed
22 this with my colleagues, but my own view is it's better to have more than
23 less. If you'll remember, there was a very similar examination made in
24 the last trial. The result of it was quite extraordinary in many ways,
25 but, nevertheless, it saved having to have more than one.
1 So I suggest that you should not take too great an issue about
2 that. If you want your own doctor to examine the defendant, that's a
3 matter which the Defence counsel will have to consider, but we would
4 certainly look favourably upon such an application. It can't be done only
5 one way, in other words, if it's going to be a Tribunal examiner.
6 All right. 9.30 in the morning.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.04 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of
9 January, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.