1 Tuesday, 23
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
11 WITNESS: AHMET HADZIMUSIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Witness. Yesterday you testified that you were a
15 courier for a unit that was commanded by your brother, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On the 6th of April, 1992, did that unit become a unit of the
18 Territorial Defence in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. I wouldn't know exactly, but I guess to think so.
20 Q. Yesterday you said that on the 17th of April, 1992, the Serb side
21 requested that you hand down your weapons and that you refused it.
22 A. Yes.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Will the witness please wait before answering.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you tell us where the Crisis Staff was located at the time.
1 A. In my brother's house, that is, on that unit of that group of
3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that the Serb side attacked you on
4 the 20th of April, 1992.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that unit performing a combat task at the time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Was your unit defending itself on that occasion?
9 A. We were not on the front lines, so we were not defending
11 Q. But you were armed, weren't you?
12 A. We were all in the house.
13 Q. On the 12th of April, did you leave as a courier to warn your
14 brother of the presence of Serb forces which you had seen through your
16 A. Yes, but it was too late.
17 Q. And on that occasion were you captured?
18 A. I was, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. After your capture, did a man in civilian clothes come
20 up and say that the prisoners should not be tied and that you, as an
21 invalid, should be allowed to leave?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So why did they keep you in spite of that?
24 A. I have no idea.
25 Q. Did they keep you because your brother was a commander of a TO
2 A. I don't know. I don't know. Nobody told me anything. They
3 simply put me together with all the others, with other neighbours of mine.
4 Q. Yesterday when asked by my learned friend you gave some detail
5 about your capture, that some members of those Serb forces forced you to
6 eat grass.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then why didn't you mention this in either of your statements to
9 the OTP investigators or in your statement to the Public Security Station
10 in Sarajevo, although you did mention that instance?
11 A. I don't know, perhaps I forgot. I don't know, but that's how it
13 Q. Yesterday you testified that from your neighbour you learnt at a
14 later date that on that occasion some people, some men, were killed?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How many?
17 A. Some ten or maybe 11, thereabouts. We thought that ten were
18 killed, but 13 are missing, so 13 must have been killed.
19 Q. Did it happen in the village of Dzidzevo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And which neighbour told you that?
22 A. That was my friend, my neighbour, a Muslim.
23 Q. Could we hear his name?
24 A. Yes, Sefik Spirjan, who was captured and was with me in the camp.
25 Q. Could you please repeat, because in the transcript we cannot see
1 the name? Perhaps the interpreter did not hear it. Could you please
2 repeat the name?
3 A. Yes. Sefik Spirjan.
4 Q. Thank you. And when did he tell you that?
5 A. He told me in the camp in June 1992.
6 Q. Were you in the same room?
7 A. No. We were not, but we communicated.
8 Q. Will you tell us, how did you communicate?
9 A. Well, we wrote on the glass, from the adjacent part of the camp,
10 letters, and that is how we read them.
11 Q. And under the roofs of the house in the KP Dom, were you allowed
12 to approach the window panes and look through the window?
13 A. Yes. We were allowed to do that after, after St. Vitus Day.
14 Q. Thank you. And from what distance could you watch this pane,
15 window pane on which the message was written?
16 A. It was not written on the window pane. There was no message there
17 on the window pane, but letter by letter was written by hand, and that is
18 how we could read it. And the distance was about 15, maybe 20 metres. I
19 wouldn't know exactly.
20 Q. And what room was he in at the time, that friend of yours?
21 A. In 18, and I was in 13.
22 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that in an illustrated magazine which
23 comes out in Bosnia-Herzegovina, an individual who kept a diary about
24 those events wrote that five persons were killed on that occasion?
25 A. I don't know. I did not read that. Where?
1 Q. In the village of Dzidzevo.
2 A. Not five, there were more than ten. I'm positive between ten and
4 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the OTP investigators, did you
5 say that the SDA armed the Muslim people in part, and that they even had
6 some pieces of artillery?
7 A. I don't understand the question.
8 Q. I shall repeat it. Did you tell the OTP investigators in your
9 statement that the SDA armed the Muslim people, and that Muslims even had
10 some pieces of artillery?
11 A. We got a few rifles and that is all. I know nothing about the
13 Q. But did the SDA arm the Muslim people, did you say that?
14 A. Yes, true. We did get some weapons from the SDA.
15 Q. Are you aware that -- do you know if in 1992 in Foca or around it,
16 a JNA unit was stationed perhaps at that time?
17 A. I don't know. I didn't ...
18 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that the Serb people were not
19 afraid in 1992 because there was the JNA, and the Muslims were afraid.
20 Now, since you tell us that there were no JNA units there, does that mean
21 that Serbs were also afraid in the area of Foca?
22 A. I did not say that there were no JNA units, but that I did not --
23 was not aware of them since I am three and a half kilometres from Foca,
24 and therefore I did not know what was going on in Foca because I could not
25 move around. I was too afraid.
1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when asked by my learned friend you
2 testified that after your capture on the bridge next to a place called
3 Brod, on the road you saw written "This is Serbia." Why didn't you
4 mention that in none [as translated] of your previous written statements?
5 A. I don't know why I didn't, but I am positive that that was -- that
6 that is what the inscription said. And there were also flags.
7 Q. Yes, you did speak about those flags, but not about that sentence.
8 A. My mistake, slip of my memory, but that is quite correct.
9 Q. After you arrived in KP Dom on the 20th of April, 1992, did the
10 persons who admitted you there want to release you?
11 A. Yes, me and a 16-year-old lad.
12 Q. So why did they decide to keep you after all?
13 A. Well, the officer or whatever he was, when he came back, returned
14 and asked me if I was Roko's brother, and I said, "I am." And then I
15 don't know why they kept me after that. And this lad also stayed with me.
16 Q. Was it an army officer?
17 A. He was in a uniform, and since I never served in the army, I can't
18 distinguish various ranks. All I know is that he had a military uniform.
19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that after you arrived in the KP
20 Dom you were put in an isolation cell where there were 15 of you, and that
21 is another thing that you failed to mention when you spoke earlier about
22 your capture and imprisonment. Could you tell us why?
23 A. I don't know how to explain it. I made quite a number of
24 statements, and it was as I said. And why I did not say that, well, I
25 cannot really say.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. But I stand by every statement I gave.
3 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you told the Court how Mr. Djuric, Kajgana,
4 and Kovacevic were beaten. Was that on the 26th of April, 1992?
5 A. 26th? No, not then. It was before that. It could have been
6 22nd, 23rd.
7 Q. Thank you. The soldiers who were still in the prison beat the
9 THE INTERPRETER: The witness did not answer.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Until when were those soldiers in the KP Dom?
12 A. Until about the 25th, I think; a day before or a day after - I
13 don't know - but around the 25th of April, 1992.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, either the witness spoke very quietly or
15 nobody heard it, but there is no answer to the question: "The soldiers
16 who were still in the prison beat the detainees?"
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The answer was "yes."
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Q. You testified yesterday that soldiers made Mr. Kajgana and
21 Mr. Kovacevic to hit one another. Why didn't you mention this in any of
22 your statements when you referred to that incident?
23 A. There were many such incidents. If I could remember them all, I
24 would be very happy if I could repeat them word for word all that
25 happened, but I cannot remember it all. I simply don't recall it when I
1 make my statements.
2 Q. But in all your statements you described that event, however,
3 without mentioning that particular detail.
4 A. Well, I may have recalled those details at that particular moment,
5 because there were so many such details.
6 Q. Thank you. You told us that you were in solitary confinement.
7 When were you released from it?
8 A. Well, it was then, around the 25th, maybe 26th of April, because
9 at that time I didn't know when it was daytime and when it was night-time,
10 because at night they provoked us and beat us and by day we slept from
11 fear and exhaustion; and sitting, we slept sitting.
12 Q. Yesterday you testified that you saw only one incident when a
13 soldier kicked a detainee in the face, and now you speak about harassment
14 and beatings at night. Now, what is --
15 A. There are three cells, three solitary cells. In my cell there are
16 15, in the first one likewise, and in the third around 12. So perhaps our
17 cell was spared for some reason, but they were taking men out from other
18 cells. One could hear everything, because there is a net above the door,
19 so you can hear everything as if it were in the same room, and that is why
20 I say now that they beat us.
21 Q. But you did not say that yesterday. Why?
22 A. That question was not asked.
23 Q. Yesterday my learned friend specifically asked you about beatings
24 that you had seen or heard. Why didn't you say that?
25 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Just one moment. That's a very
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 broad question, Mr. Vasic. Are you able to point to it in the
2 transcript? I recall no such general question. There was certainly a
3 series of questions and very properly limited to particular
4 circumstances. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, but I have no
5 recollection of any such general question to which this would have been an
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall try to locate it
8 in the transcript. My learned friend asked about beatings which had taken
9 place in the isolation cells, and the witness said that he remembers
10 how -- that he remembered how a soldier kicked at a detainee in the face
11 who had refused to look at the torch. But I withdraw my question.
12 JUDGE HUNT: I repeat: I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I have
13 no recollection of it. That's why I thought it proper to raise. It would
14 have been an unlikely question, if I may say so.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I, may I say
16 something, Your Honours?
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's asking me very extensively and
19 exhaustively, and I simply remember more questions because I'd like to ask
20 that there be less questions because I experienced it all, and I don't
21 really want to start wondering in my mind here.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, we all understand it's a very difficult
23 experience you have to go through here. Unfortunately, it is a necessary
24 one. I'm sure you were forewarned that there would be an unhappy
25 experience for you. Everybody, including counsel for the Defence,
1 recognise that and, I believe, are not trying in any way to make it worse
2 for you; they are only doing their job. But we do understand your
4 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Could you tell us if the persons who took you out of the solitary
7 cell were in military uniforms?
8 A. Persons who took me and my other colleagues out did not have
10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you were asked by my learned friend a
11 question, and you answered and said that you were interrogated twice
12 during your detention in the KP Dom.
13 A. Yes. When I was brought there and on the 8th of May, 1992.
14 Q. Were you interrogated by an investigator on the second occasion?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In the statement that you gave to the Public Security Centre, did
17 you say that the interrogations in KP Dom were conducted by a commission
18 of investigators made of Vladicic, former police employee; Koprivica,
19 chief of the printing shop of the KP Dom; and Starovic, former employee of
20 the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes, I did say that they interrogated me, all three of them.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know, what kind of an investigating commission
23 was that?
24 A. No, I don't. I don't know.
25 Q. Thank you. And what did they ask you during those interviews,
1 those members of the commission?
2 A. They asked me about our unit, who was the commander, who was the
3 deputy, our objectives.
4 Q. Did they use force when interrogating you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, when were you registered by the Red
7 Cross first?
8 A. On the 23rd or 26th of June, 1993.
9 Q. And in the Public Security Station, did you state that the Red
10 Cross came for the first time on the 8th of May, 1992, and that it was
11 then registered?
12 A. 8th of May 1992? Somebody came, was it the Red Cross or
13 something, but they made a list of people in three rooms only, but they
14 were going around in the presence of the penitentiary guards, so they did
15 not talk to us at all.
16 Q. And did you [as translated] make a list of people who were in your
18 A. In my room, they did.
19 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that you heard Mr. Kemal Tulek's
20 voice as they -- as he was being beaten. Could you tell us, which room
21 did those sounds come from?
22 A. From the administrative building.
23 Q. But would you know which part of the administrative building?
24 A. I was in Room 13, and that was as the crow flies not far, perhaps
25 9 metres from the administrative building, and I heard his screams and
1 cries of pain from that part in the direction of my room, Room 13.
2 Q. Did you mention to OTP investigators that beatings were taking
3 place in a windowless room in the administrative building?
4 A. I never saw that room so I do not know whether it had windows or
5 whether it didn't have any windows, but any beating that took place there
6 we could hear in Room 13.
7 Q. But did somebody tell you about such a windowless room?
8 A. I heard that there was such a room from inmates, but I never saw
10 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Mr. Hazim Fulin?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you talk to him?
13 A. He was in my room.
14 Q. Did he tell you about that room to the left from the entrance
15 behind the duty room?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher help me to show the
18 witness 6/1, Exhibit 6/1, so that we can see which room did Mr. Fulin
19 refer to.
20 Q. Can you see the drawing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you please show us the room which Mr. Fulin referred to where
23 the beatings took place.
24 A. Behind the reception area. I think that this is the reception
25 area, so behind it. Since I've never been there, I don't know the -- how
1 these rooms -- in fact where they were located, but based on what Fulin
2 told me, this is what I concluded, that it was behind the reception area.
3 Q. For the record, can you please show once again this area so that
4 we can identify it.
5 A. It is right here. Based on what I see, I think that this here is
6 the reception area, and then based on what he told me, I concluded that
7 this took place behind it, behind the reception area.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] The witness is pointing to the left
9 wing of the administrative building. He is pointing to a room which is
10 second from the right in the direction to the left, and it is labelled
11 with a word "guard."
12 Q. Can you please show us in which part of the prisoners' building
13 you were located.
14 A. I was in this part of the building.
15 Q. On which floor?
16 A. On the second floor, Room 13.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. For the record, the
18 witness indicated to a building number 1, above the room which is labelled
19 as warehouse, and the witness stated that his room was on the second floor
20 of that building. Thank you.
21 We will not be needing this drawing anymore. Thank you.
22 Q. Can you please tell us whether, on the 30th July of 1994, you gave
23 a statement to the investigators of the Security Centre in Sarajevo?
24 A. I told you yesterday, when asked, I told you that these dates
25 which were important and which took place after I was released, I had
1 trouble remembering these dates.
2 Q. Did you ever give a statement to the investigators of the Public
3 Security Station?
4 A. Yes, I do remember that.
5 Q. I will read out to you a part of your statement given to the
6 members of the Public Security Station in the document on B/C/S language.
7 You can find this segment on page 5, at the bottom of the page: "On the
8 25th of June of 1992 --"
9 A. Which date?
10 Q. On the 25th of June, 1992.
11 "From rooms 11 and 12, as well as from my room, a group of 50
12 people was taken out from the KP Dom, and they never returned and nothing
13 was heard of them. This group included Munib Veiz; Zulfo Veiz; Nail
14 Hodzic; Salem Bico; Kemal Dzelilovic; Altoka, Omer; a man known as
15 Kiselica, a son of Alija; three Rikalo brothers, one of whose names was
16 Husein; Nurko Nisic; Kemal Tulek" - I apologise - "a man called Balic,
17 about 65 years old, and his son, about 20 years old; a certain Krunoslav,
18 journalist, from -- journalist in a Zagreb magazine; Mato, a medical
19 technician in the Foca hospital; and Konjo, Halim."
20 Did you give this statement to the investigators?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that upon being released from the
23 KP Dom you found out that Mr. Nisic was beaten by a certain Zelenovic. Do
24 you know whether Mr. Zelenovic was a member of the military police?
25 A. I don't know.
1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that when the beatings took
2 place, the list would come in from the administrative building. Did you
3 mean that in fact the guard was bringing in the list from that
4 administrative building?
5 A. Yes, the guard would bring the list.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. The guard would also read the list out, standing at the door.
8 Q. Was the list printed or written -- or handwritten on the paper?
9 A. I did not see that.
10 Q. Thank you. In addition to an incident which took place in the
11 isolation cell and pertained to Mr. Duric, during your stay at the KP Dom
12 did you see somebody beating the inmates?
13 A. I did not understand your question.
14 Q. During your stay at the KP Dom, did you see somebody hitting
15 inmates with your own eyes, in addition to this incident which took place
16 in the isolation cell while you were staying there with Mr. Duric?
17 A. I did not see -- I saw Sulejman Celik being stopped by the guards
18 after the visit of these journalists from a magazine called Duga. I don't
19 remember which guards exactly stopped him, but they did beat him after
20 that. And after he was beaten, he came to my room, with visible bruises.
21 So I asked him personally, "What happened?" And he said, "They beat me
22 for talking to the journalists from Duga."
23 Q. Thank you. Did you state to the OTP investigators that on 17
24 September of 1992 a group of inmates was taken to pick plums and that they
25 never came back, just -- they never came back and neither did the two
1 guards that went with them?
2 A. Yes, I stated that.
3 Q. Are you aware of what happened to these inmates and the guards
4 that didn't come back?
5 A. No, I don't know about it.
6 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that you knew that a body of
7 Konjo Halim's brother was found. Do you know where his body was found?
8 A. I heard from his father that it was found at Previla in a stream.
9 Q. Can you tell us where the settlement Previla is located with
10 respect to Foca?
11 A. Towards the north, along the Drina River.
12 Q. Can you tell us how many kilometres away?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that on the 5th of May, 1993,
15 Dr. Ibro Karovic was taken out of the KP Dom. Is that true?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know what happened to Dr. Ibro Karovic?
18 A. Yes. I found him on the 23rd of October in 1993 in KP Dom. I
19 found him in Kula, in a camp called Kula.
20 Q. Yesterday you stated that on the 12th of October of 1992, your
21 relative was exchanged, taken away for exchange in KP Dom. Can you give
22 us his name, please?
23 A. My nephew was taken away on the 20th of September of 1992. This
24 is true hundred per cent, and his name is Nermin Hadzimusic. I never
25 found out what happened to him.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Did you mention this in your previous statements?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yesterday you gave precise dates of exchanges and people that were
4 exchanged. Why didn't you give these exact dates and names in your
5 previous statements to the OTP investigators?
6 A. I believe I did, but I don't know, because I do remember these
7 dates very well, and I will always keep this in my memory and repeat it if
9 Q. You discussed exchanges, but you did not state all of the dates
10 that you had given us yesterday.
11 A. Yes. I am more precise now because I think that this is the main
12 hearing, and it is important for me to give exact dates.
13 Q. Yesterday you also mentioned for the first time the journalist
14 that visited KP Dom. Why hadn't you mentioned this before, either to the
15 OTP investigators or to the workers of the Public Security Centre?
16 A. I just recently said that there were a lot of these events, and if
17 I were to discuss all of these events that I remember, there would be no
18 end to it.
19 Q. So is it for the same reason that you did not bring up before how
20 you found out about a conversation between Mr. Krnojelac and Mr. Cankusic?
21 A. Could be, possibly.
22 Q. So does it mean that you remember this more vividly now than in
23 1994 when you gave the first statement, in 1996 when you gave the second,
24 and in 1999 when you gave the third statement?
25 A. Yes. I definitely remember better now than in 1994 because I
1 was -- when I was released, I was in a really difficult situation, both
2 physically and mentally.
3 Q. So can you explain why you did not bring this up with the OTP
4 investigators about this conversation between Mr. Krnojelac and
5 Mr. Cankusic, and it's very important to this case in which Mr. Krnojelac
6 stands accused? Did the investigator ask you whether you knew of the
7 discussions that Mr. Krnojelac had with various persons?
8 A. I can't remember this well now. I think that I was asked that
10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that you listened to the
11 conversation in front of the window of Room 12, a conversation between
12 Mr. Cankusic and another individual, in which Mr. Cankusic stated that he
13 went to the warden to inquire about his sons. Can you clarify whether you
14 heard this directly from Mr. Cankusic, or you found this out by listening
15 to the conversation that I just described?
16 A. Yes, I can explain. In my Room 13, there was Dervis Cankusic, a
17 relative of Cankusic. He talked to him, and at the time I passed by and I
18 heard something, and then Dervis later on explained it to me properly, so
19 this is how I know about this whole story. So this whole conversation was
20 related to me by Dervis.
21 Q. In which room was Mr. Cankusic Dervis staying?
22 A. In my room, number 13, and also in my room, number 3, because the
23 Room 13 contained, in fact, four separate rooms.
24 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you stated that --
25 JUDGE HUNT: Please wait for the translation. Thank you.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I apologise.
2 Q. If I understood you correctly, you stated that Mr. Cankusic was
3 talking to Dervis, to Mr. Dervis about the details of his visit to
4 Mr. Krnojelac. Did I understand you correctly?
5 A. Did I understood it correctly?
6 Q. No, did I understand you, that in fact this is how it took place,
7 this is how it occurred? Who was Mr. Cankusic talking to through the
9 A. When we were coming back from either lunch or dinner, I don't
10 remember now, there were the stairs and a path leading to the entrance of
11 this building where Rooms 12 and 13 were. So there's a path leading to
12 it, and Cankusic Dervis was at the head of this column so he could talk to
13 this relative of his through the window, and the rest of us approached
14 him, and then all of us together entered the building, the room.
15 Q. So by which window was the relative of Mr. Dervis standing by?
16 A. Room 12.
17 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, whether these conversations which
18 were taking place across the window frame were allowed in KP Dom?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you coming back from your meal escorted by guards?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Well, how did the guard permit such a conversation to take place?
23 A. The guard never walked close to us. He would normally stay at
24 least 5 metres behind us.
25 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you in your statement given to the Public
1 Security Station in Sarajevo, did you state there that the situation in KP
2 Dom improved after the Red Cross from England visited KP Dom sometime in
3 mid-June of 1993?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us, please, during your stay at the Kula camp, did
6 you talk to your brother Ismet and your family? Did you have a telephone
7 conversation with them?
8 A. Not by telephone, but I talked to them from a car via
9 walkie-talkies or something called like that.
10 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you stated that prior to your arrival in KP
11 Dom you did not know Mr. Krnojelac. Did you, in your second statement to
12 the OTP investigators, state something else, in fact, that you knew him as
13 a math teacher?
14 A. I never knew him, but I learned that he was a math teacher.
15 Q. Thank you. I have just one more question. During your replies
16 given to questions put by my learned friend, you frequently used the term
17 "Chetniks." This expression, "Chetniks," is it synonymous with Serbs or
18 do you have in mind members of a special military unit?
19 A. That means nothing to me. I heard from the Serbs in KP Dom,
20 because there were some Serb detainees there, I heard them refer to
21 themselves as Chetniks, so this is where I got this expression. But I
22 don't call them any names.
23 Q. Was that the first time you heard that expression?
24 A. From them, yes, but I also heard this expression used before from
25 the previous war.
1 Q. Now, did these people that referred to themselves as Chetnik, were
2 they members of the military formations, military units?
3 A. Yes, they were in military uniforms.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Defence has
5 no more questions.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, any re-examination?
7 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You may now
9 leave. You may take your time, if you have any difficulty, but you are
10 now finished and your experience is over. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Goodbye.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the next witness has protective measures, so the
14 screens will have to be erected. But you have some documents, I
15 understand, that you want to tender, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: The screens can be erected whilst that is going on.
18 It won't disturb us.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, yesterday Ms. Manas showed us a
20 drawing that she had in her booklet, and we have meanwhile submitted this
21 drawing -- a copy of this drawing, a big one, to the registrar, and we
22 would like to tender it into evidence, maybe as an exhibit related to her
23 report. That would be Prosecution Exhibit 41, and we may call it 41/1.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Is this a reproduction or an enlargement of the one
25 that was in her book?
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's an enlargement. It was a very small
2 book and a very small drawing.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any objection to that, Mr. Bakrac?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P41/1.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the other documents the Prosecution would
7 like to tender into evidence are related to the Witness 96. According to
8 an agreement with Defence counsel, we would like to enter the transcript
9 of this witness into evidence, and also her exit permit to leave Foca.
10 And in the trial binders it is -- the transcript has the ID number 186,
11 and the permit has the numbers 185 and 185A. However, the example of the
12 transcript in the trial binder is not the one that you will receive or
13 have received already, because we have blacked certain parts in this
14 transcript that will not be tendered into evidence, according to the
15 agreement with Defence counsel.
16 JUDGE HUNT: You mean the document that has just been handed in is
17 a redacted form of the transcript that was in our binders?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour,.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. That will be Exhibit P186. Now, are the
20 exit permits similarly redacted?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The exit permits are not redacted. They
22 should come into this trial under seal.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, then those two documents will be Exhibit
24 P185 and P185A, and they will be under seal. Perhaps I just should get
25 this checked. There is going to be no cross-examination of Witness 96?
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Now, have you got any other documents --
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's related, actually, to the witness who is
4 now testifying. We have, of course, again a sheet, a witness sheet with a
5 pseudonym and birthday and some other names on it, and it has also to be
6 tendered into evidence.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it would be a new exhibit.
9 JUDGE HUNT: That will be -- have you got it there? That will be
10 Exhibit P415 and it will be under seal.
11 I've assumed your consent, Mr. Bakrac, perhaps wrongly, but you've
12 consented to each of these so far, these documents.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. You mean this
14 last document having to do with the protected witness or the transcript?
15 Yes, yes, we do not object.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. P415. It will be under seal.
17 Yes, the blinds will be lowered whilst the witness is brought into
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration in the
21 document being shown to you.
22 WITNESS: FWS-138
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Your witness, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
5 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
6 Q. Witness, you have a sheet of paper in front of you, and the first
7 name of this sheet of paper, is that your name?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. And the date below, is that your birth date?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. And on this same sheet of paper you find four other names. If you
12 want to refer to these people listed on the sheet of paper, please do not
13 use the name, but rather the number.
14 A. Very well.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Could you help him with the microphone.
16 Q. Good morning, Witness. I forgot to greet you, sorry.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Witness, where were you born?
19 A. In Foca.
20 Q. What is your ethnicity?
21 A. Bosniak.
22 Q. When you say Bosniak, do you mean a Muslim, Muslim?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you married when the war started?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And did you have children?
2 A. Yes, two; a daughter and a younger son.
3 Q. And where did you live before the war, in which neighbourhood?
4 A. In Foca, Donje Polje neighbourhood community.
5 Q. Did you live in a private house or an apartment building?
6 A. In a private house.
7 Q. Did you own this house, or was it your family house?
8 A. It was a house. I inherited it, so, yes, it was my house.
9 Q. Is this house still standing, do you know?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What happened to the house?
12 A. Serbs put fire to it.
13 Q. When did that happen?
14 A. It happened in May 1992.
15 Q. And did you actually see it happen? Did you see it burn?
16 A. I did, yes. I was in the town in a residential building, and from
17 there I could see buildings all around Donje Polje burn.
18 Q. And you said that Serbs set fire on it. How do you know that?
19 A. I know it because they had taken the whole of the town of Foca.
20 Q. What was your profession before and during the war -- sorry, what
21 was your profession before the war?
22 A. I was employed in the KP Dom, or rather, I was a guard in the
23 penitentiary in Foca.
24 Q. In which time period did you work there as a guard?
25 A. From (redacted) until April 1992.
1 Q. What was the capacity of the prison? How many prisoners were
3 A. The capacity was up to 1.000, perhaps 1100 or 1200, but when the
4 aggression began, there were about 500 or 600 inmates in the KP Dom
6 Q. When you say 1.000, up to 1.200, does this include the entire KP
7 Dom complex including outposts, or the centre, just this prison -- main
8 prison building?
9 A. The outside buildings, no. Well, we had some working sites,
10 workshops outside.
11 Q. The KP Dom itself, the main facility, was it a male prison?
12 A. Yes, a male prison.
13 Q. What about the female convicts, were they housed?
14 A. Women were kept at Velecevo prison, and it is a locality 2.5
15 kilometres away from Foca.
16 Q. Was this facility for females? Was it under the command of the
17 main KP Dom, the male KP Dom, or was it independent?
18 A. Yes, it was under the control of the male part of the prison.
19 Q. Was there a prison farm as an outpost of the KP Dom?
20 A. Well, there wasn't a farm only. There was also a building unit, a
21 metal-working unit, timber industry.
22 Q. Let's go one after the other. The prison farm, where was it, and
23 how many prisoners did work there during peacetime?
24 A. That farm was 3 kilometres away from Foca, and there was some
25 livestock breeding there, then there was also the livestock farm, the pig
1 breeding farm, cattle breeding, and also poultry farm. The number of
2 convicts was around 80 to 90 to 100.
3 Q. Did they also sleep there? Were they housed in this farm complex?
4 A. Yes, yes, that is where they slept.
5 Q. And was there a fish pond, and if so, where was it and how many
6 prisoners worked there?
7 A. Yes, there was a fish hatchery, a fish pond. If I remember well,
8 it was in 1989. I can't really remember when it was opened, but it was at
9 a distance of some 15, 16 kilometres. And convicts were also kept there;
10 that is, they lived there and worked there and slept there.
11 Q. And how many convicts worked on this fish farm?
12 A. Well, it wasn't a particularly large -- or rather, the capacity
13 was large, but there were about 25 men, 20. It varied.
14 Q. Now, you mentioned a construction firm. Where was this, and what
15 was it?
16 A. The construction unit had one plant in Foca and another one in
17 Sarajevo. And that in Sarajevo, we built residential buildings, and in
18 Foca likewise, that is, the convicts were engaged in building residential
19 or houses.
20 Q. Did convicts also work in the Miljevina mine?
21 A. Yes. We also had that, and we had that particular work site.
22 Miljevina is at a distance of some 12 kilometres from Foca. We had a
23 contract with the Miljevina mine, and we used to send about 30 to 40
24 convicts to work there. And again, it varied on the needs of the mine.
25 Q. And when the convicts worked in the mine or at all these other
1 places, were they paid for their work?
2 A. Yes, every convict was remunerated for the work he did.
3 Q. Did they all get the same salary, or did that depend on the work
4 they did or their qualification?
5 A. No, no qualifications. It depended on the nature of work, his
6 performance as a worker, the length of time, the kind of work. For
7 instance, those who were construction workers before the war, they would
8 get some 200 marks, but those were exceptions.
9 Q. And those who worked in the mine, did they get the same salary as,
10 for instance, those working at the fish pond, or was there is a
12 A. No. There was a difference because it is harder to work as a
13 miner than at a fish farm. Also, they wanted, of course, to be assigned
14 to jobs where they could make more money.
15 Q. Do you recall what the salary was of those people who worked in
16 the mine?
17 A. I can't remember that. I don't know because I never worked there.
18 Only I know from the stories I heard that they were remunerated quite
20 Q. You said that you worked in the KP Dom as a guard. Were you under
21 the supervision of the police or Ministry of Justice or the Ministry of
23 A. No. We were under the Ministry of Justice of Bosnia and
25 Q. In April 1992, who was the warden of the prison?
1 A. Before the aggression, the warden was Radojica Tesevic.
2 Q. Was he a Serb?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know what profession Mr. Tesevic actually learned?
5 A. I think he graduated in sociology in Pristina.
6 Q. Was Mr. Tesevic involved in politics, do you know?
7 A. Yes. He was in all the authorities in Foca. He was the president
8 of the executive board. I also think he was the president of the former
9 central committee. I'm not sure, but I know that he was the mayor of the
10 municipality and also the head of government of the municipal government,
11 and he used to be a teacher and to teach at the teacher's school in Foca.
12 Q. When you mentioned the central committee, does that mean the
13 communist party? To which party do you refer?
14 A. Yes, you're quite right.
15 Q. Was he a member of any of the new formed parties? Do you know
17 A. No, as far as I know.
18 Q. Having -- to become the warden of the KP Dom, would you need to be
19 involved in politics? His position -- Mr. Tesevic's position in the KP
20 Dom, does it have to do -- does it have anything to do with all of these
21 functions you just mentioned?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What were the duties and responsibilities of Mr. Tesevic?
24 A. He was the prison warden, and all the work sites and all the
25 business units were all under him; that is, he was in charge of
2 Q. Who was his deputy before the war?
3 A. Hasan Klapuh, and after that Alija Berberkic.
4 Q. What were the duties of Mr. Klapuh and Mr. Berberkic?
5 A. Well, the same kind of duties. What they usually did was to take
6 care of security and then acted as wardens when Radojica Tesevic would be
8 Q. And to take care of security, what does it mean, actually? In
9 practical terms, what did they do?
10 A. They took care of security, the guard duty, headed disciplinary
11 commissions for the convicts, and things like that.
12 Q. Who was the chief of the guards before the war?
13 A. Before the war it was Mitar Rasevic.
14 Q. And the commander of the guards, besides being the commander of
15 the guards, did he have any other duties?
16 A. Well, he was in charge of disciplinary procedure in case of some
17 guard -- transgressions by guards, and he also visited persons kept in
18 solitary confinement. I mean, he was only responsible for security or,
19 rather, for the guards.
20 Q. How many guards worked in the KP Dom on an average?
21 A. On the average, about a hundred, but it depended on the number of
22 work places and whether there were any vacancies or not.
23 Q. Did the guards work in shift, and if so, how were the shifts
25 A. Yes, the guards worked in shifts, and there were also some guard
1 posts with only one shift. That is, for a while it was between 8.00 and
2 4.00, from 4.00 to 12.00, and from 12.00, that is, from midnight until
3 8.00. And later on we changed the working hours and worked -- and would
4 work for two days. The first shift, that is, from 6.00 till 3.00; for two
5 days from 3.00 p.m. to 2200; and the third shift would be -- we would do
6 for two days from 2200 till 6.00 in the morning, and then we would get two
7 days off.
8 Q. Mr. Rasevic, was he involved in politics? Do you know that?
9 A. No, as far as I know, except that he was a member of the League of
11 Q. Did Savo Todovic work in the KP Dom before the war?
12 A. Yes. Savo Todovic too was a clerk in the KP Dom or, rather, he
13 started as a guard, but then he graduated from the vocational
14 administrative school and then became a clerk in charge of the registry of
16 Q. As the clerk for the registry of convicts, what did he have to do?
17 A. Well, a clerk in charge of convicts, well, it depends. There is a
18 clerk who is responsible for sports activities; and there is another
19 person who is responsible for the employment of convicts; and there was
20 also a man who was responsible for criminal investigation techniques; and
21 there was also another employee, another clerk, who was a photographer,
22 who took photographs of the convicts upon their arrival in the
24 Q. And what did Mr. Todovic do?
25 A. Mr. Todovic was responsible for the employment of convicts and he
1 was also involved in the criminal analysis or, rather, files of the
2 convicts. He was the one who kept the files of convicts.
3 Q. Was he involved in politics? Do you know that?
4 A. As far as I know, before the war he was a member of the League of
6 Q. Speaking of the chain of command in the KP Dom before the war, who
7 belonged actually to the prison management? What would you say?
8 A. Specifically, in the prison administration, well, everybody
9 belonged. The guards, number one; two, rehabilitating officers; and then
10 the legal department, accountants, the business unit, health service, the
11 construction unit.
12 Q. Who were the chiefs of the units related to economic matters? Do
13 you know that?
14 A. Well, let me start from the beginning. Radojica Tesevic was the
15 warden of the penitentiary, Hasan Klapuh, then succeeded by Alija
16 Berberkic, then the head of the rehabilitation service. The chief of
17 guards was Mitar Rasevic. The business unit, Drina, it was Mujo Smajkan,
18 and that business unit was then divided into the farm, construction unit,
19 agriculture, fish hatchery.
20 Q. The business -- you said the business unit Drina. Does that
21 include all these economical parts or is that something else?
22 A. No. It covered -- it embraced all the business parts and it was
23 called Drina Business Unit.
24 Q. Did Mr. Mujo -- I just have this "Mujo." I didn't understand the
25 last name. Did he have a specific title within the structure?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Well, we wouldn't call it title. We said manager of the Drina
2 Business Unit.
3 Q. Do you know if this Drina Business Unit made profits?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what was done with this profit? Did it remain in the prison
6 or was it referred to the Ministry of Justice?
7 A. As for the profit, it was distributed between the convict and
8 civilian person, guards, and Ministry of Justice, and of course for
9 production materials, for the purchase of livestock or fishstock, timber
10 industry, and the like.
11 Q. When you say it was distributed also to the convicts, you mean the
12 salaries, or was there something additional, in addition?
13 A. There was the remuneration for convicts.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.
15 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn now until 11.30.
16 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, let us now talk about the reporting structure that was in
21 place before the war. To whom did you report and how did you do it?
22 A. I reported to the head of my department who was actually the
23 commander of guards.
24 Q. And how did you do that, verbally or did you write reports?
25 A. Well, it depended. Sometimes I did it in writing and sometimes
2 Q. And when you did it in writing, did you have a report book, or was
3 it single sheets? What actually was it? What did you do?
4 A. Well, each position had a book of -- an official book of reports,
5 a log-in book, and this book was transferred between employees when they
6 were taking over their duties. And if there was a problem that needed to
7 be reported, then that would be done in writing, and this report would be
8 delivered to the chief of guards, commander of guards.
9 Q. This book that you mentioned, did each section have such a book,
10 that is, the guard, the tutors, and the other sections?
11 A. Well, each position had this kind of logbook book, and all new
12 moments, all new facts that pertained to that position, would be written
13 into that book. And the heads of various units would give both verbal and
14 written reports to their chiefs, and those who were on duty in the shift
15 had to give written, typed reports that would go to the chief of guards,
16 to the chief of rehabilitation unit, and to the warden. And all changes
17 would be entered into that report, all changes that took place during that
18 particular shift.
19 Q. I would like you to explain to the Court this reporting system in
20 relation to unusual events. For instance, in case of a suicide during
21 your shift, what would you have to do, and what would happen?
22 A. Well, this is how it would be: If this were to take place during
23 my shift, then I would inform the officer on duty, and then he in turn
24 would inform the warden of the prison part, and then the warden -- the
25 chief of the rehabilitation service. The warden would call in the police.
1 The police would come in and investigate and interrogate the person on
2 duty who had to be present during the -- during this investigation, and
3 there would also be an investigative judge who would be involved in this.
4 Q. And why would the officer on duty inform the warden in such a
6 A. Yes, that was his duty, to inform everyone.
7 Q. Did you actually ever experience such an incident while you were
8 working in the KP Dom, a suicide?
9 A. Yes, it did take place. We had a person who hanged himself in the
10 furniture factory. I was making a round of the factory, and as I was
11 making my round I noticed a person who was hanging in the upholstery
12 department. I informed the others through my walkie-talkie, Motorola, and
13 then other guards came in and secured this site until the people who were
14 in charge came to the site as well.
15 Q. And on this occasion, did the warden also come and take action?
16 A. Definitely. That was his duty.
17 Q. In case of -- another example, in case of a violent act between,
18 let's say, prisoners, or in relation to a guard to a prisoner, or the
19 other way around, what would happen? What would you do in such a case?
20 A. Well, we had those kind of incidents. There were cases where
21 inmates would fight amongst themselves, and in that case we would
22 intervene and separate the inmates. We would get them to give a written
23 statement and then they would be locked in the isolation cells. At the
24 end of my shift I would normally write a written report to the chief of
25 guards, and he in turn would send this report to the chief of the
1 rehabilitation unit, and he in turn would send it to the warden
2 of -- prison warden. After that there would be a disciplinary procedure.
3 There would be a commission who would decide on disciplinary measures
4 which would be implemented in that case.
5 Q. In case a prisoner would have a complaint, let's say a complaint
6 about the guards, what was in place for such a complaint? What would he
7 have to do?
8 A. As far as disciplinary measures were concerned, or at least a
9 complaint lodged against a guard, an inmate would have to write a written
10 report and then turn it over to his rehabilitation officer; and the
11 rehabilitation officer would go up the chain all the way to the chief of
12 rehabilitation unit; and he in turn would decide whether this complaint
13 should be forwarded to Mitar Rasevic, the chief of guards, or to the
14 warden. If guards were to overstep their authorities, then there would be
15 a disciplinary measure. It depends on what kind of an infringement it
17 Q. And in case a prisoner wanted to see the warden, what would he
18 have to do to get there?
19 A. In order for him to get to the warden, he would have to apply to
20 us first, and then we in turn would inform the chief of guards of this
21 request, and he in turn would inform the chief of rehabilitation unit. If
22 this was some kind of a lesser-degree incident, then this would go through
23 the rehabilitation officer and then on to the head of the rehabilitation
24 unit. And there were certain dates when the warden would see people who
25 had certain complaints, but there were also -- there was a possibility
1 where he could see people who had complaints outside of those specific
2 predetermined dates or hours.
3 Q. And when you said he would have to apply to you, the guards,
4 first, does that mean he would hand over a written request or could they
5 ask to see the warden verbally? Was there a formal way to do it?
6 A. We would collect reports in rooms every evening, and we had a
7 book, or rather it was a sheet of paper, where we would enter the number
8 of convicts in the rooms, which room this pertained to, and we would also
9 write specifics concerning medical status or other things that were
10 entered into the report. And then in turn this would be entered into the
11 log-in book when the other guard would come to take over, and these
12 convicts in the morning would then be taken for an audience with
14 Q. Which disciplinary measures did the warden have at his disposal in
15 case a guard mistreated a prisoner? Do you know that?
16 A. Well, this depended on a measure. If this was a simple case of
17 overstepping authorities, then this guard would go to a disciplinary
18 commission. He would be suspended, and the disciplinary commission would
19 then issue a disciplinary measure. Usually, that was in the form of a
20 monetary fee that had to be paid.
21 Q. In a more serious incident?
22 A. Well, if this was serious, then dismissal would ensue.
23 Q. And how would the warden get involved in this?
24 A. Well, I'll repeat it once again. Depends on the gravity of the
25 incident. If it was a disciplinary sanction that ensued, then the guard
1 had a right to appeal in a certain time frame, but if there were no
2 appeals, either from the guard or from the warden, then it would stand.
3 And if there was an appeal, then the disciplinary commission would sit
4 again and then decide in a new proceeding. If this was a grave -- an
5 incident of a grave nature, then that person would be dismissed.
6 Q. You said that the involvement of the warden depends on the gravity
7 of the incident. Could you give us examples for serious incidents that
8 would actually involve the warden at any, at any case?
9 A. You mean if it pertained to the guards?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Well, we had cases where the guards would go outside with their
12 weapons and shoot in various celebrations, during holidays. We also had a
13 case where a guard borrowed his uniform to a murderer, and as a result of
14 that, he was automatically dismissed in an urgent procedure.
15 Q. Was there ever a case where a guard beat up a detainee or a
17 A. Well, there were cases of that as well, but very few.
18 Q. And would the warden get involved in this? Would he be informed
19 through all this various chain of command steps?
20 A. Naturally, because the warden also had to report to the Ministry
21 of Justice. He had to report to them annually on the occasions in which a
22 baton was used, and then the Ministry of Justice would review the case and
23 decide whether the use of baton was justified.
24 Q. When did the war break out in Foca, the initial shooting, let's
1 JUDGE HUNT: Now, really, this is what we have been talking about.
2 Is there any dispute about this?
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just want to --
4 JUDGE HUNT: Just lead him, just lead him.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.
6 Q. On the 8th of April, were you still in the prison?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How many prisoners were in the prison at that time; do you recall
10 A. Well, approximately 400. Well, this was long time ago for me to
11 remember with precision, but I remember that on Monday at 3.30, certain
12 inmates escaped through the wall because they felt in the air that
13 something was coming, and they arranged this escape. Approximately 60 or
14 70 of them escaped between the gates or guard booths number six and five
15 at the gate number three. Between the gates there were the booths for the
16 guard. And they called the officer on duty, informed him of this escape.
17 The guard then informed the warden to get instructions on whether they
18 should shoot or not. The warden said, "Do not shoot. Let them run."
19 Q. Were you present on this day when this happened?
20 A. Yes, I was present there. I was working. I was a guard on duty,
21 and they fled past me. And the warden was in the compound, and so was the
22 chief of the rehabilitation unit. They had a conversation which I am not
23 familiar with.
24 And the inmates escaped through the wall that was by the gate, and
25 then we organised ourselves and we started basically catching them and
1 bringing them back to the KP Dom. Some of them managed to escape. They
2 were fleeing in various directions. Some of them went across the bridge,
3 some went through the river, and some of them fled to the forest because
4 the forest was maybe 50 or 100 metres away from the wall.
5 Q. Thank you. And when was your last working day at the KP Dom?
6 A. My last working day was, I believe, Friday or Saturday. I don't
7 recall. I think that on Wednesday at 9.30, the shooting began. We were
8 in the -- we spread ourselves between the administrative building and a
9 guard's booth. I was there during that day, and then my mother and my
10 late wife called me asking me to come back home. They were afraid; they
11 were crying. I left my pistol, I left my rifle, and I went home. And I
12 never went back to the KP Dom.
13 Q. These few days that you spent in the KP Dom after the shooting
14 actually had started and before you left, were the guards still there?
15 Was still the -- did the prison still function?
16 A. Well, the prison was partially still functioning. The guards
17 remained there due to other inmates that were still in prison.
18 Q. And what kind of weapons did you have at that time, the guards?
19 A. The guards had semi-automatic weapons, Kalashnikovs, and pistols,
20 and the latest machine-guns.
21 Q. And in addition to the weapons that you and the guards actually
22 had with you, were they weapons stored in the KP Dom?
23 A. Yes. We had a room where the weapons and ammunition were kept.
24 Q. And did you receive orders from the warden or your direct superior
25 what to do with these weapons, weapon?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I think that I was accidentally there when the phone rang at one
2 occasion. I picked up the receiver and I heard the voice of Mr. Radojica
3 Tesevic, and he ordered to break into this room where the weapons were
4 held, to take out the locks from the weapons and to throw them into the
5 storage or utility room, and that was done exactly so. All of these locks
6 from semi-automatic and automatic weapons were put in a sack and it was
7 taken to the utility heating room.
8 Q. And why -- do you know why you had to do that, what was behind
10 A. Well, no, I didn't know. I didn't understand why that had to be
11 done, but it was done.
12 Q. You said that you left the KP Dom and you left your weapon
13 behind. Did you have a private weapon at home?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. You said that you did not return afterwards to the KP Dom. Are
16 you aware if the Muslim side took over the KP Dom at some point in time?
17 Would you know?
18 A. Well, the Muslim side, I think, held the KP Dom for some three or
19 four days.
20 Q. Would you know if they detained Serbs in the KP Dom at that time?
21 Do you have any information about that?
22 A. I'm not aware of that, because at the time I was at home.
23 Q. Do you know what happened with the remaining prisoners when you
24 left? Were they moved somewhere else?
25 A. Yes. Later on when I was exchanged and I came to Sarajevo, I met
1 an inmate who was there during the whole time, and he told me that they
2 were loaded onto trucks that transported furniture and they were taken to
3 Spuz, which was a prison in Titograd. Since Titograd would not have them,
4 some of them were taken through Bosnia, and some through Serbia, back to
5 Bosnia, and some were around Tuzla. They were turned over and put into
6 the KP Dom or, rather, prison in Tuzla.
7 Q. When you say "they," do you mean all remaining detainees of all
8 ethnicities, or who is "they"?
9 A. They were mostly Muslims - perhaps a few Croats, but mostly
10 Muslims - because Serbs were released, freed.
11 Q. How do you know that, that Serbs were released?
12 A. This inmate told me so.
13 Q. While you were in Foca, still in Foca in April 1992, did you ever
14 come across convicts that were walking freely around?
15 A. I didn't, because I really didn't move around a lot in Foca.
16 Q. After you left the KP Dom, where did you go? Did you actually
17 stay in your house or did you go somewhere else?
18 A. I stayed at home and I was there for about two days. I
19 immediately noticed there was no one around but that there was still
20 gunfire. And when there was a lull in the gunfire, I moved to my
21 sister-in-law's in the town, that is, to the centre of the town, to
22 Ribarsko neighbourhood, right below the municipal hall.
23 Q. When the fighting stopped, did you go back to work or did you
24 attempt to go there?
25 A. When I came to town, I switched on the radio and I heard them
1 inviting the employees of the KP Dom to come back to work. So I dialled
2 the KP Dom and somebody answered from there and told me not to come.
3 Q. You said that you switched on the radio and you heard them
4 inviting the employees. When you say "them," whom do you mean? Who was
5 inviting the employees?
6 A. When Foca fell, Radio Foca immediately came on air and there was
7 all sorts of information or, rather, news broadcast.
8 Q. Yes, but who -- could you hear which institution invited the
9 employees of the KP Dom to come back to work?
10 A. It was the Serb Radio Foca.
11 Q. Yes. And to whom did you speak? You said you were told not to
12 come back to the KP Dom. To whom did you speak on the phone?
13 A. Micun Jokanovic was the one who took my call. He died meanwhile.
14 Q. And what was his position in the KP Dom at that time?
15 A. He was the head of the commercial department.
16 Q. Before the war?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you hear who was the warden? Was it also broadcast who was
19 the warden? Was it Mr. Tesevic? Did you hear anything in this regard?
20 A. No, I did not see Mr. Tesevic, nor did he speak in public, and I
21 heard that Mr. Krnojelac had become the warden and that other
22 institutions -- or, rather, that the war presidency of the municipality of
23 Foca had appointed the managers of -- new managers of all the companies,
24 from Maglic to Kemika [phoen] to the KP Dom, and so on and so forth, the
25 municipal hall, and it was Mr. Mladjenovic who was appointed the chairman
1 of the war presidency of Foca.
2 Q. When did you hear that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden? Do you know
3 when that was?
4 A. It was in late April or mid-April. I can't remember.
5 Q. Let me clarify. You heard it on the radio or how? Was it
6 announced --
7 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, on the radio.
8 Q. And these other persons you just mentioned, the managers of the
9 companies - you also mentioned Mr. Mladjenovic - the new managers, did you
10 know these people?
11 A. I knew Mladjenovic personally, because he was the mayor at the
12 time of the war presidency. He taught in the school and later on was
13 appointed the chairman, the president of the war presidency of the
14 municipality of Foca.
15 Q. These managers, as you heard it being announced, these managers of
16 the various companies, what ethnicity did they have? Could you say?
17 A. Well, I could say, of course. They were all Serbs. They were no
18 Muslims then any more. They had all scattered.
19 Q. And these new managers, were they involved in politics, would you
21 A. One had to be a member of the SDS to be appointed a manager.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. Well, because that was the only party -- well, not the only, but
24 it was the strongest party in the Foca municipality.
25 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac a member of the SDS, do you know?
1 A. Well, must have been 100 per cent.
2 Q. Did you ever see him on political meetings or with politicians
3 before the war?
4 A. No, I did not see him with politicians. But since I was not a
5 member of any party, then I went to all the meetings from the SDA, the
6 MBO, that is Muslim Bosniak Organisation, SDS, and so on and so forth. I
7 attended all those meetings because I simply wanted to know what each one
8 of them had to say; that is, I wanted to hear what the views were of party
9 number one, number two, number three, and so on.
10 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac at such meetings?
11 A. At a stadium of the Sutjeska football club, that is where I did
12 see him.
13 Q. And when was that, what ...
14 A. That was before the war --
15 Q. And what time --
16 A. -- when the parties began to emerge. 1990, 1991.
17 Q. And when you saw him, what kind of a meeting was it? Do you know
18 who was assembling?
19 A. That was the founding convention -- or, rather, the election rally
20 of the SDS at the Sutjeska football stadium. They at that time held those
21 rallies at the secondary school, but I did not go there. The only time I
22 was present was at the football stadium.
23 Q. And where was Mr. Krnojelac when you saw him there?
24 A. In front of the stage or, rather, -- yes, in front of the stage.
25 He was up there in the stands.
1 Q. With whom was he sitting, do you remember that?
2 A. I can't really remember, but they were all different men of the
3 SDS, the founders of the SDS party.
4 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac together with Mr. Ostojic or
5 Mr. Maksimovic during the war or immediately before the war?
6 A. Before the war, yes, not during the war.
7 Q. And when did you see him, and what was he doing?
8 A. Walking. Walking in the centre, along the promenade in front of
9 the hotel, and that is the JNA club.
10 Q. And who was with him?
11 A. There were several of them, but I did not know them all that well
12 or, rather, I knew their faces, but not their names.
13 Q. And --
14 A. Vojo Maksimovic, Dr. Vojo Maksimovic was the one I recognised.
15 Q. And what was he wearing, Mr. Krnojelac? Do you recall?
16 A. A suit, no tie.
17 Q. When were you arrested?
18 A. I was arrested on the 10th of May, 1992.
19 Q. When and where did it happen?
20 A. It happened in the centre of the town in my relative's house.
21 Q. And who arrested you?
22 A. Five young men came with rifles. They entered the flat, cocked
23 their weapons, and told me to get ready because they were taking me to the
24 KP Dom.
25 Q. And these young men, were they -- how were they dressed?
1 A. One of them was in a military uniform, and others were half-half,
2 all sorts of things, both civilian and military.
3 Q. And did they tell you where they came from, I mean, from which
4 institution, from which organisation?
5 A. They did not tell me anything. They simply pointed their rifle,
6 their weapons at me and began to go around the rooms and search them.
7 Q. When they took you away, did they have an arrest warrant or did
8 they have any paper?
9 A. No paper. They did not have any paper. The five of them put me
10 on a Peugeot 205, green, no plates, and they put me in the back seat in
11 the middle of two men. No, excuse me, there were four of them. Two sat
12 on each side of me, and two sat in the front.
13 And as they headed for the KP Dom, they said, "Where were you?
14 Where are you? We've been looking for you because there's a warrant for
15 you." And I apologise but I have to say this: I said, "Fuck the one who
16 issued the arrest warrant for me because I know that I did nothing and
17 you're taking me only because I'm a Muslim."
18 Q. And how did the soldiers -- or the soldiers, yes, respond to this,
19 to your remark?
20 A. They didn't say anything.
21 Q. Were you ever charged later on during your detention, or
23 A. When I arrived in the KP Dom, I found there my former colleagues
24 at the gate, at the main entrance. There were some four or five of them,
25 and Mitar Rasevic was one of them, too. As they got out of their car,
1 they all scattered and only the guard and Mitar Rasevic -- the guard who
2 was at the gate and Mitar Rasevic stayed.
3 Mitar Rasevic came to me and said, "What's happened?" Where was
4 I? And I explained where I had been and what had happened, and then he
5 took me into the compound, turned me over to guards, and told them to put
6 me in Room 18.
7 Q. And did he tell you or did anybody else during your detention tell
8 you why you were detained and what the charges against you were?
9 A. Up to that time, all the detainees - I mean Muslim and Croats
10 because there were two Croats there, too - up till then they had all been
11 interrogated in the building. And as for me, I spent there about ten
12 months without being interrogated.
13 The guard Milivoje Milic came to Room 18 and called me and another
14 one out, another Muslim, that is, and told us to go to gate 1, that is,
15 told me to take that other one with me because he was disabled, an invalid
16 of some 80, 90 per cent. And he told me to go to Ibro Prohic's office.
17 Q. And what happened in the office?
18 A. I entered the office, Ibro Prohic's office. The two of us went
19 in, and there I found Vladicic, Starovic, and Koprivica.
20 Q. Who were they?
21 A. They were inspectors, police inspectors. Before the war I knew
22 that Vladicic was a police inspector, Starovic was a teacher, and as for
23 that Koprivica, I'm not quite sure what he did before the war. And
24 Koprivica took me into another office, and that was the office used by
25 that social worker, and that other colleague was questioned by Vladicic
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and Starovic.
2 Q. And Mr. Koprivica interrogated you, is that what you say?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did he tell you why -- what you were accused of?
5 A. No, he did not. He began to ask me where I had been and what I
6 had been doing until the day of my arrest. And he took a typewriter, put
7 it on the desk, put a paper in, and then I began to tell him from the
8 beginning of the war to the day of my arrest where I had been. I told him
9 that I had not been anywhere, that I had been in the town all the time and
10 in the prison, that I had worked in the prison until the outbreak of the
11 war and for three days after the outbreak, and that then I had left my
12 weapon and gone home.
13 Q. Did Mr. Koprivica accuse you of anything in particular? Did he
14 charge you?
15 A. In particular, he told me that they had found a radio station with
16 me and that that was the reason why they were bringing charges against me,
17 which is beyond reason. I never had a weapon, let alone a radio station.
18 But the important thing, of course, is to charge you with something,
19 anything. And when all that was over, I signed a statement and went back
20 into the compound.
21 Q. You mentioned that the interrogators, they were -- at least two of
22 them were from the police, from -- in which -- could you find out in which
23 capacity they --
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say that at least
2 two were from the police. He said that Vladicic came from police, the
3 second one was a teacher, and he did not know what the third one's
4 profession was.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Whereabouts is it? I can't -- my recollection was
6 that there was no particular number of two assigned. Where is it?
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's here, at page 50.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's page 15 --
10 JUDGE HUNT: Page 15.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. 50, sorry. Page 50. And it says --
12 JUDGE HUNT: Line?
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Line 12/18/03. "They were inspectors, police
14 inspectors. Before the war I knew that Vladicic was a police inspector,
15 Starovic was a teacher, and as for that Koprivica, I'm not quite sure."
16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then the point is well made.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, then you had better reformulate that
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
21 Q. Could you make out in which capacity Mr. Koprivica was
22 interrogating you? Did he indicate it?
23 A. No, he did not tell me, but it was as policemen: Starovic,
24 Koprivica, and Vladicic.
25 Q. Civil policemen or military policemen?
1 A. They had civilian uniforms.
2 Q. Let me return to your arrival in the prison compound. You said
3 that you were taken to Room 18. Why Room 18? Do you know that?
4 A. Because building 1 was full and they had begun putting people in
5 building 2. Room 16 was filled to capacity and they began to take people
6 to Room 18 in building 2.
7 Q. And who made this decision? Was it Mr. Rasevic, whom you
9 A. He decided that I should be put in Room 18.
10 Q. How did he -- being your former colleague, how did he behave
11 towards you when you arrived?
12 A. Strictly -- on strictly official terms.
13 Q. And your other colleagues that you met during your detention, how
14 did they behave towards you?
15 A. Again, strictly officially.
16 Q. Did they --
17 A. Even more than officially; that is, they were rougher than that.
18 Q. When you arrived in Room 18, were there other detainees already in
19 this room?
20 A. There were, yes.
21 Q. And were did they come from?
22 A. Foca, vicinity of Foca. There was a wounded man from Visegrad,
23 from hospital, who was also brought to Room 18.
24 Q. What was the highest number of detainees in Room 18 that you were
1 A. Forty-five, fifty.
2 Q. Were those with you in the room, were they all civilians?
3 A. All civilians, down to the last one. Not a single soldier. Even
4 invalids, and that wounded man from Visegrad - I don't know - he was
5 driven out of the hospital and put in the KP Dom.
6 Q. How long did you stay in Room 18?
7 A. Some 10 or 15 days maybe, and I was transferred to Room 20.
8 Q. How many detainees were in Room 20 together with you?
9 A. No sooner did they transfer me or, rather, when they came and told
10 me to move there, I found there 22 men who had been brought from
11 Montenegro, and then more people began to arrive from villages.
12 Q. And how long did you stay in Room 20?
13 A. I stayed there for about a month and then I was transferred to
14 Room 23.
15 Q. From Room 23, where was it in the building? On which floor?
16 A. Building 2, floor number 3.
17 Q. Number 3, you mean -- do you mean the top floor or do you
18 count -- how do you count 3?
19 A. The topmost floor, the last floor.
20 Q. Could you see the Drina River from this room?
21 A. Well, some of it, yes. About half.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
23 show to the witness Exhibit 18, photos 7442 and 7529.
24 Usher, is it possible to put them on the ELMO so that we can see
25 both, that is, the photo 7442 and 7529? Is it possible to place it this
2 THE USHER: It's not possible.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's not possible. Okay. We have it, then,
4 one after the other.
5 Q. Witness, look at 7442 first and tell us what you see. You have to
6 point out what you see on the ELMO, not on the monitor. It's the
7 other -- the top photo. Yes, this way. Yes. What do you see?
8 A. I see a bridge and KP Dom, KP Dom's restaurant and KP Dom's
9 cinema, metal workshop, boiler room, and the top of building 1 and top of
10 building 2.
11 Q. Could you please put the pointer on the top of building 1.
12 A. This section here is a hospital where inmates were in the hospital
14 Q. Wait a second. Wait a second.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the building
16 overlooking the administration building left from the trees.
17 JUDGE HUNT: It is part of building 1, as the witness said.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
19 JUDGE HUNT: And it is the portion that comes out from -- in the
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
22 Q. And now continue, please. What do you see -- what do you see on
23 the right side from the trees?
24 A. I see a cinema and I can also see room -- building 2 and Room 23,
25 and also a staircase. These are the windows of that room and also the
1 windows of the rehabilitation officer's office.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was indicating these windows on
3 the right side from the trees.
4 Q. Can you tell us which windows are Room 23? If you count them from
5 the left -- from the right side, which windows were to be the windows from
6 Room 23?
7 A. The first one, second one, and then there are two windows that
8 belong to the hallway, and then also one window of the rehabilitation
9 officer's office. This is not a very clear photograph, so I can't really
11 Q. Then please have a look at the photograph --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Can you speak into the microphone, please.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry.
14 Q. Please have a look on the photograph 7529. It's a, it's a
15 slightly different -- would you be able to tell which windows you can see
16 from the building 2 next to the trees, which windows would that be?
17 A. The windows of the room that face the compound and Drina River and
18 part of the bridge, and also the windows of the rehabilitation officer's
20 Q. Would you now please look at the photo 7528, that is the -- oh, I
21 had it just the other way around, sorry.
22 Yes, please, the windows, the three windows that you see from the
23 prisoners' quarters, would that be a room, or what would it be?
24 A. Well, there were two dormitories there. The lower one faced this
25 side, and the upper one faced the other side.
1 Q. Dormitories of which room?
2 A. Twenty-three.
3 Q. Would the view from these three windows, would it be obscured by
4 the trees or by anything else, or did you have a clear view on to the
6 A. Only -- bridge would be visible only partially, or rather, this
7 part of it on this side was visible.
8 Q. I didn't see where you were pointing, sir.
9 A. [Indicates].
10 Q. So the part on the bridge, you're indicating the part on the
11 bridge on the opposite side of the river?
12 A. Yes. This was visible from the Room 23.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, there was a promise by the
14 Defence before we adjourned at the end of last year that they were going
15 to produce some photographs for this. Have you seen any such photographs?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Are we going to be kept in the dark about this,
18 Mr. Bakrac? It may be that you've got photographs from those three rooms
19 which will enable us to see what at least you assert can be seen of this
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the photographs are
22 being developed, and we plan to tender them into evidence through a
23 photographer who produced them on the ground. That is the answer to your
25 And the other thing that I wanted to say is, I would like the
1 record to reflect that the witness pointed to the end of the bridge on the
2 other side, and that this is what he had stated.
3 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "the other side," you mean the side away
4 from the KP Dom or the --
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, the opposite.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Where he has the -- oh, he's moved it. You mean he's
7 pointed it to this side that we see closest to us in the photograph, or --
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE HUNT: -- on the far side of the river?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE HUNT: But may I suggest that if you can speed those
12 photographs up, it would help a great deal because witnesses such as this
13 who would have known the KP Dom very well indeed may be of some assistance
14 to us on it if they can see your photographs as well.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I shall try after this
16 first recess to bring the photographs after that, but I hope it will be
17 all right with you if I just bring the photographs, the photographs alone;
18 and then later on when we start our case, then we will make an entire
19 photo documentation to present to you.
20 JUDGE HUNT: That would be very appropriate because as we've
21 pointed out before, the rules in effect require you to show those
22 photographs to witnesses such as the present one.
23 I realise you don't have them here, but it would be very helpful
24 to us if we could get an issue very early in this case as to what you
25 could see from those three windows on the top floor of KP Dom which we can
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 see in this current photograph.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I promise and I take
3 this upon myself to bring those photographs after the first recess.
4 A. However, a lot can be seen from this photograph as well. One can
5 see from the Room 23 approximately half of the bridge and half of the
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I'm sorry to have
8 interrupted you, but I thought if we had the photographs it might help
9 us. I think we're going to have to get some other photograph of this
10 bridge so that we can see what can be seen. Is it only the top of the
11 curved section and, if so, which curved section because there are two as,
12 I recall from one of the earlier photographs that we've seen.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HUNT: It may become of some importance in the case.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's right. That's why I wanted to
16 clarify it with the witness who knows the building well.
17 Q. And if you look again on the top photo on this sheet --
18 A. One can see half of the bridge and half of the river from the Room
20 Q. Now, you have just indicated on the photo below that the three
21 windows that are not obscured by the trees are Room 23. Now these -- this
22 view shows the trees. Which room would that be that you have said?
23 A. Twenty-three, but the living-room section of it, not the dormitory
24 section, because one would enter the living-room section first, and then
25 proceed on to the dormitory section.
1 Q. Thank you. Let's put aside the photos.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would like to put to the witness the floor
3 plan, 6/5. You can use this here.
4 Q. Would you point out --
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Please put it on the ELMO that we can see
6 Room 23 in its entirety.
7 Q. Could you point out the windows that you just mentioned? First
8 the windows that were not obscured by trees and then the other three --
9 the others, sorry.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the second room
11 counting from the right side.
12 Q. Which windows would that be?
13 A. The ones that face the Drina River and the bridge.
14 Q. Yes. And those --
15 A. This is a toilet, this is a second dormitory which faces the upper
16 side, and the rooms -- the two windows in this part face the Drina and the
17 bridge, and then from the living-room section, two windows also face the
19 Q. But where is the -- what is -- where is it, this section that you
20 call living-room? Could you point out the section you call "living-room"?
21 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, may I suggest you ask the witness
22 how many windows in each of these rooms, because the photographs say we
23 can see three windows at the end of the building. That will tell us from
24 which room there was a view of at least a portion of the bridge.
25 You remember that the photograph you've been showing, the
1 description by the investigator as to how she took it does not suggest it
2 was taken from those windows.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, that's right.
4 Q. You heard the question of the Presiding Judge. Could you tell us
5 beginning from the right side which -- how many windows were in the first
6 room on the right side?
7 A. Two.
8 Q. And in the second room?
9 A. In the living-room section, two.
10 Q. And following, then, this section where the staircases are,
11 which -- how many windows faced the Drina River? How many windows were
12 there between 23 and 22?
13 A. There were two offices belonging to rehabilitation officers. The
14 one that was in charge of Room 22 had his office, and the one that was in
15 charge of Room 23 had the other office in the hallway.
16 Q. And how many windows were there facing the Drina?
17 A. One in each. In each office, one.
18 Q. And in Room 22, the section that we're facing directly -- that was
19 following this hall you mentioned, how many windows were there facing the
21 A. Two.
22 Q. Thank you. Yes, thank you.
23 Witness, the bridge over the Drina, was it big enough for trucks,
24 or was it kind of limited?
25 A. Before the war that was the only bridge in town, and it started
1 deteriorating, and it was repaired, a new asphalt was put. And then they
2 put a kind of a border indicating that trucks could not cross this bridge,
3 only passenger vehicles.
4 Q. And the river at this point, was it floating slow or fast?
5 A. Well, we had a dam in Pluzine, and it all depended on the dam. If
6 the dam worked, then the river would flow noisily, and about -- it
7 produced a lot of noise and cataracts at about 150 to 200 metres.
8 However, if the level in the summer was not so high, then the river would
9 be relatively calm.
10 Q. You mentioned the dam, was it upstream?
11 A. Downstream -- no, the dam was upstream.
12 Q. And when it was not operating, when it did not let water through,
13 how was the noise level of the river then?
14 A. Well, the noise was less; however, the water level was still good,
16 Q. Did the weather conditions have an effect on the noise coming from
17 the river?
18 A. Definitely.
19 Q. In which way?
20 A. Well, if the level of the water was higher, then the river would
21 swell, then the noise would increase, especially if the snow was melting
22 and there was a lot of rain; however, when the level of the water
23 decreased, then the noise decreased as well. And it was always deep.
24 Q. And in the summer, let's say in April 1992 through to July 1992,
25 how was -- do you recall if the river was noisy or more quiet?
1 A. There were times when it was noisy and there were times when it
2 was quieter, and as I said, it all depended on the dam.
3 Q. What was the distance between the prisoner quarters and the
5 A. Do you mean from the inmates' building or from the administrative
7 Q. From the inmates' building.
8 A. From the building 1, as the Room 13 was closest to the
9 administrative building, then as the crow flies, approximately 100 metres,
10 maybe less. Less, definitely less. I can't tell you exactly. As the
11 crow flies, approximately 20 to 30 metres.
12 Q. Yes, thank you. Where in the building did the commander of the
13 guard have his office, in which building, first, and where, on which
15 A. Building 1 on the second floor of the administrative building.
16 Q. When you say building 1, do you mean the administrative building?
17 A. Yes, because to the left was the building where the chief of the
18 guard was on the first floor and the chief of the discharge and admittance
19 unit, and on the second floor there was the chief of the rehabilitation
21 Q. Do you know if Mr. Rasevic continued to use this office during
22 your detention?
23 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. You mentioned that you were interrogated in this same building.
25 On which floor were you interrogated?
1 A. On the first floor, in the social worker's office. And across
2 from it was the -- Rasevic's office was across from the office of the
3 chief of the admittance and discharge section.
4 Q. Did you see Mr. Rasevic there when you went for interrogation?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And where was the warden's office before the war? Just the
8 A. To the right of the entrance to the KP Dom, on the second floor,
9 and again to the right, at the end of the hallway.
10 Q. And do you know if Mr. Krnojelac used this office during the war,
11 during your detention time?
12 A. He did, because on one occasion when they were emptying the
13 register, a secretary of the deputy of the warden was there, as was Savo
14 Todovic. This register was taken down to the ground floor.
15 Q. Did you do it, actually, or how do you know that?
16 A. The four of us were taken out to carry this register down. This
17 register was -- before the war this register was used by the deputy
19 Q. And what did you see when you were doing this?
20 A. I saw the secretary. She was on the same spot where she used to
21 work before. I saw Savo Todovic using the same office as well, but there
22 was a bed in that office now, and as was a stove.
23 Q. Was there a bed in the office of Mr. Todovic or Mr. Krnojelac?
24 A. Todovic's office, because we were not allowed -- in fact, there
25 was no need for us to go into the other office as well.
1 Q. Was Mr. Todovic in the office when you did this job?
2 A. Yes, he was, and so was Mitar Rasevic.
3 Q. And did you see Mr. Krnojelac in his office at that time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. This secretary that you just mentioned, did she serve the warden
6 and --
7 A. Yes. Starovic, Borkica.
8 Q. Did she serve the warden before the war and also the deputy
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did she say anything or did she indicate that she was still
12 doing the same job or ...
13 A. She was still doing the same job and she was using the same spot
14 she did before the war. And she did not even acknowledge me, despite the
15 fact that before the war we were good acquaintances.
16 Q. Witness, we heard from other detainees that there were Serb
17 prisoners in the KP Dom. These Serb prisoners in the KP Dom during the
18 war, did you see them and did you know them?
19 A. Well, they were there and they were in Room 19. However, those
20 were mostly deserters who escaped from the front lines and refused to go
21 to the front. I met a man named Slavko, who killed his girlfriend, who
22 was a Serb. There was also a guy there, a Serb, who was sentenced to 15
23 years, who attempted to escape across the wall, and he encountered a mine
24 and he was killed. We were having breakfast at the time and it was around
25 9.30 or 10.00 there. He just happened to be alone in the factory,
1 although that was against the rules. He jumped through the window and
2 started towards the wall; however, there were many mines around the
3 factory and he simply stepped onto one.
4 Q. Were these mines in the prison while you were there as an
6 A. No. I don't remember which date it was, but I remember that on
7 that day the lunch was late and the Engineering Unit came in and placed
8 the mines, from gate number 2, across the guards' booths 5, 4, up to the
9 gate 3, all around the wall. Only the guard's booth number 6 was still
10 operating, and that is the guard's booth which is located right next to
11 the administration and close to the building number 1, or rather Room 13,
12 perhaps just 5 metres away from there.
13 Q. When you say "Engineer Unit," do you mean a military unit? Was it
14 a military unit doing that?
15 A. Yes. Yes, military unit. They were wearing uniforms, they had
16 helmets, and there were perhaps 12 of them. Because we watched it from
17 across, on the other side. We watched them as they came in.
18 Q. And when was that done? Could you say which month?
19 A. That took place in 1992, June or July.
20 Q. You have mentioned Serb prisoners. Are you able to compare the
21 living conditions of these Serb prisoners and the Muslim detainees? Could
22 you compare, for instance, how the food was for the two groups?
23 A. Well, I can only make negative comparisons. Serbs, for example,
24 were allowed visits every day. They were brought in food from home on a
25 daily basis. The food was cooked separately for them and they would go to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 another room, to another hall, to have breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So
2 they were separated from us. Those of us who worked in the factory, we
3 had no contact; we were not allowed contact with them. And that was
4 forbidden for them as well; they were not allowed to have any contact with
6 Q. Did you have contacts nevertheless, secretly, or how do you know,
7 then, about their food?
8 A. Because we would look through the windows. And after about a year
9 and a half I started working in the factory, so I did have some contacts
10 with them. They worked in the machine unit 1 and we worked in the
11 upholstery department and in other sections of the factory.
12 Q. Witness, you mentioned that their food was cooked separately. Did
13 they get more food than the Muslims or the same amount?
14 A. Well, there's no comparison there. Before the war we had soup
15 plates, dinner plates, salad plates for the inmates. We purchased it in
16 Belgrade two or three years prior to that. And Radojica was the one who
17 was in charge of that. Before that we used to have plastic plates, which
18 was not really sanitary - they used to crack a lot - and this is why we
19 bought these new plates, and we were given food on salad plates. The meal
20 was given out four times -- well, rather, three times, but the same food
21 was distributed to us four times a day - for lunch, breakfast,
22 dinner - and then the following day we would get the same food for
23 breakfast again. We were never given a can, we were never given meat,
24 nothing fatty at all, and this lasted this way up until the International
25 Red Cross came.
1 Q. And compared to this limited food that the Muslims got, what did
2 the Serbs get? Are you able to say?
3 A. They were given the same food as us, but they were also given meat
4 and they were given fatty food, because this came out from the common
5 kettle. This was a kettle which was used in Brioni that we in the past
6 used it to boil water, and then they bought it to the KP Dom and they
7 would cook the food together. And once the food was cooked, they would
8 put it in a big pan and take it to the kitchen, where there was a stove,
9 and then they would add fat and meat and cook it some more. But
10 definitely there was a larger quantity of food.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00 -- sorry, it's 1.00.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We'll resume at 2.30.
13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, were you ever mistreated or beaten while detained in the
5 KP Dom?
6 A. Well, once I had the chance or, rather, a mischance. We went for
7 lunch, and I entered the rehabilitator's office to take a chair for our
8 room for the Witness 111, and that he needed a chair because he could not
9 sleep and he was learning English. And when I returned from the lunch,
10 Zoran Matovic asked me, "Who took the chair?" And I said "I did," and he
11 locked me up in the solitary confinement. I spent the whole night in the
12 cell until about half past 11. And then Mitar Rasevic came and asked me
13 what happened, and I told him, and then he said to me, "You must not
14 behave like that. Mind your step," and he let me go.
15 Q. So Mitar Rasevic, who was he?
16 A. He was a guard.
17 Q. And when did this happen?
18 A. It happened in July. I don't remember the date.
19 Q. And which year?
20 A. 1992.
21 Q. And while you were in the isolation cell, were you beaten or hit?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you alone in the isolation cell, or were there other
24 detainees with you?
25 A. In the one that I was in, there was yet another colleague of mine.
1 Q. And was he beaten or anyone from the cells next to you, to yours?
2 A. No, he was not while I was there. But in the evening at the time
3 of shift change they would go to cells, see who was in those isolation
4 cells, and then they would sometimes beat a Muslim in that cell, because
5 at times they came drunk to take over the night shifts.
6 Q. When you say "they," do you mean -- whom do you mean?
7 A. Serbs is whom I mean, guards in the KP Dom.
8 Q. Could you recall any specific incident so that you can name the
10 A. Specifically, Balic.
11 Q. Do you know the first name?
12 A. It eludes me right now, but I know very well that it was the
13 police day, and the brother who was in the police academy in Sarajevo, of
14 the principal of the academy, he congratulated the policeman on that day.
15 I can't remember the date.
16 So the guards came, took him, took him through the gate. He spent
17 there about 15 to 20 minutes, and I saw how they brought him back. He had
18 bruises under his eyes, and they put him in an isolation cell. There he
19 spent some 15 to 20 days, and after that they took him back to his room.
20 Q. Police day, is that -- which day would that be, from the date?
21 A. I think it is sometime in May.
22 Q. You said you do not recall the first name. In the list we have
23 actually -- in the Schedule B we have actually two different Balices.
24 B-4, that is Dzemo Balic, and B-3, that is Serif Balic.
25 A. Dzemo Balic.
1 Q. Is Dzemo Balic related to Serif Balic? Do you know a Serif Balic?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What happened to Mr. Dzemo Balic? Was he --
4 A. They brought him back to the room, and then they took him to be
5 exchanged, and he never came back.
6 Q. You say he never came back. Does it mean he -- you don't know
7 what became out [sic] of him?
8 A. Well, I suppose he was killed, I mean, since he's missing to this
10 Q. Do you recall when he was taken for exchange and disappeared?
11 A. It all happened in June, July, August, and September 1992. I kept
12 some records in the KP Dom while I was in the Room 18 and 20, and all the
13 others in the room did it with me; but they used to search the rooms, and
14 I was afraid they might find those lists, and I was afraid I might suffer
15 some consequences.
16 Q. Nevertheless, do you recall any specific incidents where you
17 either saw or heard that a detainee was beaten?
18 A. The most critical times were May, June, July, and August. It was
19 then that they were taking away from 1.500 to 1.700, and they were taking
20 away detainees, beating them, and bringing them back again. I remember
21 Nurko Nisic, who was beaten black and blue and then brought back, but then
22 he was taken away for a second time and did not return.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... second place before we move
24 on to other people you remember, let's first deal with Mr. Nurko Nisic.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And for the record, Your Honours, it's
1 incident 5.27, described in particular in the indictment, and Schedule C,
2 number 19.
3 Q. How often was Nurko Nisic taken out from his room?
4 A. I know about one occasion when they beat him and a second time
5 when they took him away and after which he did not return.
6 Q. And what did you see when he was taken for the first time and was
8 A. I saw bruises under his eyes and I saw that he stumbled.
9 Q. Was he in your room at that time?
10 A. No. He was in building 1, in Room 15 and 14.
11 Q. And how did you see him? Where were you and where was he when you
12 saw him with these injuries?
13 A. I was in 18 and in the right-hand dormitory. I don't know its
14 number. But I could see exactly, because it was right below that
15 dormitory that he had to go to enter building 1, that is, to go to his
17 Q. And where was he coming from when you saw him?
18 A. Through the gate number 1.
19 Q. You mentioned gate number 1. Which kind of gate do you mean?
20 A. It is the main entrance into the compound of the prison.
21 Q. Yes. And had you seen him being taken there also or did you only
22 see him return through this door?
23 A. When they took him away, yes, we were at the window, and we waited
24 there for him to come back. And when they did, we were still at the
25 window, so we saw when he was returned. And the second time we saw how he
1 left, but did not see him come back. He just stayed there.
2 Q. Was he accompanied by someone when he was taken to the
3 administration building or back?
4 A. There was a guard of the KP Dom.
5 Q. Do you recall which guard?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Now, do you remember anyone else in particular, another detainee?
8 A. Halid Konjo, Halim Konjo.
9 Q. Please pause in between. Halid Konjo, who was he and what
10 happened to him?
11 A. He was also taken away and did not return.
12 Q. And you mentioned Halim Konjo.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For the record, he is mentioned in Schedule
14 C, number 13, and Schedule B, number 33.
15 Q. What did you see happen to Halim Konjo?
16 A. Halim was also taken away, did not return. And they are two
17 brothers and both were in the restaurant business. Halim was found about
18 five or six kilometres away from Ustikolina. He was found last year.
19 Q. You said he was found. Does that mean he is alive?
20 A. No, no, no. He was found dead. There was an exhumation.
21 Q. When these two were taken away -- first another question. Did you
22 see them being taken only once or were they also taken several times and
24 A. I saw it only once.
25 Q. And when they were taken, especially when Mr. Halim Konjo was
1 taken, did you hear anything afterwards, after he had been taken?
2 A. Halim is the elder of the two. Halid was beaten badly at gate 1,
3 and one could hear them beat him, because he screamed, cried for help.
4 But who beat him, I don't know, and one could not really see who beat him.
5 Q. This Halim Konjo, did you hear anything in this effect as well
6 from him after he was taken through the gate you mentioned?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Who else do you remember?
9 A. I remember Esad Kiselica. He was also taken away and did not come
10 back. Rahman Cankusic --
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... pause. Esad Kiselica, that
12 is C-12. Who was he, Esad Kiselica? Who was he?
13 A. Esad Kiselica was an electrician. He worked for Valter Pejic
14 company until about a year before the war, and there he suffered an
15 accident at work and suffered bad burns. He was 80 per cent disabled,
16 barely survived, and he had to change job and moved to office work. He
17 was also taken away. Why, I do not know, but he did not come back and he
18 is still missing.
19 Q. And did you hear the sounds of beating when Mr. Kiselica was taken
21 A. No.
22 Q. And you have already started to mention another person. Who was
23 the next person you wanted to mention? You have said Ramo [sic], but then
24 I interrupted you.
25 A. There was Veiz 1, Veiz 2, Abdurahman Cankusic.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Witness, make a pause when you come to the next person. You said
2 Veiz the one and Veiz the other. Do you know the first names of the
4 A. It escapes me right now, but one was a salesman and worked for KTK
5 Visoko shop, and the other one was a policeman.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the two Veizes are mentioned
7 under -- Munib Veiz is mentioned under B-59 and C-28, and Zulfo is
8 mentioned under C-29 and the incident 5.27.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
11 Q. Witness, did you -- was any of the Veizes taken on several
12 occasions, or did you see them being taken only once?
13 A. I saw it only once, and they did not come back.
14 Q. And did you hear the sounds of beating when they were taken?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Yes, please go to the next person. You mentioned Abdurahman
18 A. Cankusic, yes. He was also taken away in an unknown direction,
19 that is, through gate 1, and did not come back.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this --
21 A. Islampasic.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Just a second, Witness.
23 Your Honour, this is C, Schedule C-3 is Mr. Abdurahman Cankusic.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And he's also mentioned, my colleague just
1 told me, he's mentioned also in Schedule B, number 7.
2 Q. Yes. And you said Mr. Islampasic. What is his first name, do you
3 know that?
4 A. Suad, Suad.
5 Q. And what did you see happen to him?
6 A. He also left for exchange and did not come back.
7 Q. You said he left for exchange, so this has nothing to do, then,
8 with beatings?
9 A. It does not.
10 Q. And when you saw Mr. Cankusic being taken, did you hear beatings
12 A. No.
13 Q. Whom else do you remember?
14 A. There were so many of them, I can't remember the names right now.
15 Q. You have given a statement --
16 A. Aziz Torlak, I've just remembered his name. He was taken away in
17 the morning at half past eight and did not come back.
18 Q. When was he --
19 A. Allegedly he was taken to be exchanged. He never came back.
20 Q. And who was he and when was he taken for exchange?
21 A. He was a surgeon, worked in the hospital, and as he was in his
22 white clothes, they brought him from the hospital to the prison.
23 Kemo Tulek, my colleague from the KP Dom, he was brought from
24 Bileca. He was arrested in Kalinovik, transferred to Bileca, from Bileca
25 to Foca. And Milic told me - I just happened to meet him - and he told me
1 that Kemo would not fair well because he was to be court-martialed.
2 Q. Which Milic was that?
3 A. A guard in the penitentiary.
4 Q. Do you know a Ramo Dzendusic?
5 A. Ramo Dzendusic. He was a clerk responsible for national defence.
6 He was in Room 16, and he was also taken out and away and did not come
8 Then there was Mandzo who was a hospital laboratory assistant,
9 can't remember his first name, with Kalaba -- or, rather, his nickname is
10 Kalaba, they both were taken through at gate 1, beaten at gate 1, and
11 brought back to Room 16.
12 Q. Let me just clarify something. You said you do not know the first
13 name of this Mandzo. Do you know a Salko Mandzo?
14 A. No, no, it's not Salko. It's not Salko. Salko Mandzo, no, it's
16 Q. Do you know a Kelta?
17 A. Called Kelta, nickname. That is Salko Mandzo, and his nickname is
19 Q. Let me clarify something. You mentioned a medical person,
20 Mandzo. Is that Kelta or is this --
21 A. No.
22 Q. -- someone else? Who has the nickname Kelta, which Mandzo?
23 A. Salko Mandzo is Kelta.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Kelta Mandzo is mentioned in B-36 [Realtime
25 transcript read in error "B-26"].
1 Q. This Kelta Mandzo, who was he and what did you see happen?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that the
5 witness said that it was not that Mandzo, Salko Mandzo who was beaten, but
6 another Mandzo whose first name he doesn't know.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the answer at line ten is Salko Mandzo is
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, 76, 2 and 3.
10 JUDGE HUNT: We can only go on what he said at line ten. If he
11 said it, then the Prosecution is entitled to accept it. If you want to
12 clear it up, you can do so in cross-examination, if he said two different
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I refer to
15 lines 2 and 3 when he said that he was not referring to this Mandzo, to
16 Salko Mandzo. And finally, my learned friend referred to an incident
17 which had to do with Salko Mandzo, and now it turns out that the witness
18 was confirming that incident, even though he said that he was not
19 referring to that Salko Mandzo and was not saying that Salko Mandzo,
20 nicknamed Kelta, was the one who had been beaten.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Your objection is to the answers he's given, not to
22 the questions which are asked. Now, that's a matter that you can sort out
23 in cross-examination.
24 The Prosecution has asked a question, received an answer, and upon
25 the basis of that answer, pointed out a particular incident in the
1 indictment. There's no confusion in what the Prosecution has done. You
2 will, no doubt, want to suggest that there's been some confusion in the
3 answers. That's a matter for cross-examination.
4 You proceed.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, but I saw that in the transcript
6 there is a mistake. Maybe I misspoke, but it's not B-26, but it's B-36.
7 It's B-36, but let me clarify.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
9 Q. What did you see happen to Kelta Mandzo?
10 A. Kelta Mandzo has nothing to do with the other Mandzo. Kelta
11 Mandzo just happened to come from work because he worked at the Brioni,
12 and when he reached the gate, they began to beat him. But at that
13 particular moment, Mitar Rasevic came up and said, "Fuck you. That's not
14 the Mandzo. Look for the other Mandzo."
15 Q. Did you actually see that or hear it, or did someone -- did
16 Mr. Kelta or someone else tell you about that?
17 A. Kelta told the story when he came into the room.
18 Q. And did you see any injuries on him?
19 A. I did not see any.
20 Q. Do you know -- did you see any other Mandzo in the prison?
21 A. The other Mandzo, a lad of some 19, 20 years of age, they were
22 together with that other one, with Kalaba in Room 16, and one of the
23 guards came and called them out, and they went to gate 1. I could see
24 that from Room 18. They beat him for about 15 minutes at gate 1, and then
25 they brought them back to the Room 16 again.
1 And one could see injuries on them, on Mandzo and this young man.
2 He entered the Room 16 with his arcade broken, and Witness 214 sewed up
3 the wound with just a plain needle and thread. In the morning I also went
4 to see the doctor, to our surgery, and I found him there. One could see
5 injuries under his eyes, and the laceration above the eye, and I asked him
6 what happened, and he said, "They took me to the gate with Kalaba and
7 somebody beat me." So I asked him, "Who beat you?" And he said, "I dare
8 not tell you."
9 Subsequently, he also went to be exchanged and did not come back.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we cannot clarify the matter
11 further with this witness, but we think the witness is referring to the
12 incident 5.28, but there's also a Mandzo mentioned in B-37, Emir Mandzo.
13 JUDGE HUNT: But is it the same --
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But we will --
15 JUDGE HUNT: Is it the same incident or the same description?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We cannot clarify that further with this
17 witness. It's only that I want to point this out.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
20 Q. Witness, this Kalaba you mentioned, what is the correct name of
21 this person?
22 A. I can't remember. But this other young man, his name is Emir
23 Mandzo, the one who is a medical technician. He worked at the
24 neuropsychiatric unit. But I don't remember Kalaba's first name. I know,
25 though, that he comes from a settlement which is 6 kilometres away from
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Your Honour, Emir Mandzo is
3 mentioned under B-37.
4 Q. Witness, do you know yet another Mandzo, a certain Fuad Mandzo?
5 A. Fuad Mandzo is yet a third Mandzo. He was in Donje Polje, and
6 they killed Kelta by mistake, and they intended to kill Mandzo Fuad.
7 Q. You said they killed Kelta. What is that --
8 A. Yes. But when Mitar Rasevic came, they stopped beating him and
9 they let him go. In fact, they were looking for Fuad Mandzo.
10 Q. So Kelta wasn't killed?
11 A. No.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Fuad Mandzo, Your Honour, is under C-16.
13 Q. Witness, do you know a person Enes Uzunovic?
14 A. Yes. (redacted). He was also taken
15 away and did not come back.
16 Q. Mr. Uzunovic, in which room was he, and what did you see happen to
18 A. In Room 18. He was in that room. He was taken out and he did not
19 come back, and allegedly he was exchanged.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-26.
21 Q. When you say "Room 18," was he together with you in the room? In
22 which room were you?
23 A. Yes. Yes. In 18. I was in that room as well. Because he was
24 initially in Room 11 and then he was transferred to Room 18, from the
25 building 1 to the building 2.
1 Q. Witness, do you know a Hamid Bico, nicknamed Salem?
2 A. Salem, yes, I knew him as well. He was also taken away to the
3 gate and did not return.
4 Q. Was he taken to the gate only that one time that you just
5 mentioned or did you see him on several occasions?
6 A. I saw it once. I also remember Sahinovic. He used to work in a
7 bank. He was taken on several occasions and returned into a room that was
8 sort of a thoroughfare, and he stayed alone in that room. It was in the
9 building 1, next to Room 12. Right to Room 12 was this room that was a
10 passing room, a thoroughfare room, and he was kept there for two or three
11 days. Later on we learned that they beat him because of some money.
12 There was some money involved. His wife was head of the foreign currency
13 unit in the bank, and supposedly 40.000 German marks disappeared.
14 Q. You refer to Mr. Bico.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He is mentioned -- Your Honour, he is
16 mentioned in B-5 and C-2.
17 Q. When he was taken away, did you hear the sound of beating
19 A. I didn't.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And Mr. Sahinovic is mentioned in the body of
21 the indictment. My colleague is just looking for the specific paragraph.
22 Q. Do you know any person with the last name Rikalo?
23 A. Rikalo. They were three brothers. They lived in Cohodar Mahala,
24 local commune called Cohodar Mahala. They were in Tivat, from where they
25 were brought to KP Dom. They were also taken away in the afternoon hours,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 after lunch, and they never came back.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I just got from my colleague the
3 paragraph in the indictment referring to Mr. Sahinovic, and it's 5.29.
4 And the Rikalo relatives are mentioned in C-21 to 23 and B-45 to 48.
5 Q. But can you tell us -- yes, please.
6 A. They are not relatives -- they are not cousins; they're brothers.
7 Q. Yes. And I just wanted to ask you: Do you know their first
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Do you know an Atko Isanovic?
11 A. Atko was his nickname. His real first name was Adnan. He was in
12 the restaurant business. He had a cafe also in Cohodar Mahala. He was
13 taken away together with six Muslims. This is what I had heard. He was
14 supposedly taken to the hospital to be bandaged, and they were in fact
15 killed near the brook, below the hospital.
16 Q. Did you hear any sound of beating in relation to this Adnan
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you know a person Mensud Pasovic?
20 A. Also known as Pace. I know him as well. He was taken away
21 together with Karabegovic to be exchanged, and he never came back.
22 Q. When he was taken out, did you hear the sound of beating
24 A. No.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is mentioned under B-44, Your
2 Q. Do you know a Kemal Dzelilovic?
3 A. I also know Kemal Dzelilovic. He was also taken away. I saw him
4 being taken away in the afternoon hours. He was taken to the gate, where
5 he was beaten, and then he was returned. When they took him away for the
6 second time, he did not return after that.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is C-7, Schedule C, number
9 Q. Did you see injuries on him when he was returned for the first
11 A. I did, for the first time, yes. I saw bruises under his eyes,
12 both eyes.
13 Q. And which time passed between his being taken for the first time
14 and then for the second time when he disappeared? How much time passed
15 between the two times?
16 A. The following day. This is how it usually happened: In the
17 afternoon they would beat somebody and then the following day they would
18 take them away, although sometimes it happened on the same day. They were
19 taking people away usually between 3.30 in the afternoon till about 7.00
20 in the evening.
21 Q. And when you say "they," whom do you mean?
22 A. I mean Serbs. Guards would come, call out names, and take out
23 people to the gate 1.
24 Q. Do you know a Krunoslav Marinovic?
25 A. Certainly. I know him as well. He used to work as a TV
1 repairman. He was married to a Serb with maiden name Gagovic who worked
2 in the military office. He was also taken away and he did not return.
3 Zulka, known as Zoran, medical technician, worked at the ear, nose, and
4 throat unit. He was in prison twice. The first time they released him.
5 The second time when they took him he did not return. He was married to a
7 Q. This Zoran -- but this Zoran has nothing to do with Mr. Krunoslav
8 Marinovic, or --
9 A. No. I only mention it together because those were two Croats, the
10 only two Croats in the KP Dom, and this is why I linked them.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Marinovic is under C-17.
12 Q. You said Zoran, a Croat. Would you know the last name?
13 A. I can't remember. A long time went by, so I can't remember.
14 Q. Do you know Juso Dzamalija?
15 A. Juso Dzamalija was an older man. He lived in Sukovac, where he
16 had a house. That was across from the KP Dom. He was about 65 to 70
17 years old. He was also taken away and did not return.
18 Q. When was he taken away, and did you hear afterwards any
19 information about what happened to him?
20 A. Well, I didn't. We didn't know what happened. And if somebody
21 did not return, that meant that they were killed. This was our
22 reasoning. If somebody was taken for exchange or for other purposes, this
23 is how we reasoned. We couldn't see what else could have happened to them
24 other than being killed.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person, Juso Dzamalija, is under C-6.
1 Q. Witness, you have already mentioned several times now that they
2 were taken into this door, into the administration building, and were
3 beaten. Could you hear from the sounds in which part of the
4 administration building those people were beaten? Could you make it out?
5 A. Room 13 could hear it, 11, 16, and 18.
6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... misunderstanding. I was
7 asking -- I wanted to know: Could you make out from which part of the
8 administration building the sound of beating and the screams came from?
9 A. It would usually come from gate 1 or from the so-called passing
10 room, a thoroughfare room which was behind the place where officers on
11 duty were.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
13 put in front of the witness Exhibit 61A.
14 Q. Witness, if you look at the floor plan of the administration
15 building, could you show us where this passing room is?
16 A. This is an entrance. To the left was the office where officers on
17 duty were, and then next to it was this passing room, or through room. It
18 had grates on the windows and it had concrete on the floor and it had two
19 big rings on the floor which were attached to the concrete on the floor.
20 We created this room before the war so that if some prisoners came drunk,
21 we would normally put them in this room to sober up and then in the
22 morning release them. So the screams were heard from this room. We could
23 hear the sounds from this room.
24 Q. Would you please point at this spot and leave it there.
25 A. [Indicates]
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the fourth room
2 from the left side in the administration building, facing the street.
3 Q. Is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Did you hear the sounds of beatings coming from this room?
6 A. Yes. That could be heard in Room 13, in Room 13, and also the
7 Room 11 could hear sounds from this room. We in Rooms 16 and 18 could
8 hear sounds from the gate 1.
9 Q. Would you point at the spot in this sketch where you could hear
10 screams coming from.
11 A. I could hear it from Room 18.
12 Q. Yes, but from where did you hear the sounds come from, the sounds
13 of beating?
14 A. From gate 1.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the entrance of
16 the building.
17 Q. Could you put it -- the pointer right on the spot and leave it
19 A. This is gate 1.
20 Q. Yes. And that's the entrance, actually, to the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes, the entrance into the compound. And the administration
22 building was to the left and to the right.
23 Q. Thank you. You mentioned this particular room with the
24 rings -- with the metallic rings on the floor. Was that a room -- for
25 what was this room used during the peacetime when you worked there?
1 A. Well, during the peacetime it was used in those instances where
2 convicts, when they were drunk, would be locked in that room until they
3 sobered up; and once they sobered up, we would take them back into the
5 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of shots in relation to beatings?
6 A. Yes, in the evening, in the evening hours --
7 Q. How often did you hear --
8 A. -- in front of the building. Well, in the beginning it was more
9 frequent; it took place more frequently.
10 Q. Did you ever hear -- could you ever connect the shots to beatings,
11 or was it just shots? Like, could it be some --
12 A. Those were just shots. I know that those who worked in the metal
13 workshop, they said that they washed the car belonging to Kedi, Zastava
14 vehicle, that we used to use to drive -- to transport fish in it. They
15 told us that they washed the blood from the car.
16 Q. And did you hear car noises after the beatings that you described?
17 A. Well, it's a typical sound produced by this type of Zastava car,
18 and this came as a result of the exhaust pipe being damaged. So they used
19 it to transport the dead bodies and then the car would come back.
20 Q. When did you hear the car?
21 A. This invariably took place in the evening, in May, June, July, and
23 Q. Did you ever find out who beat the victims? Could you hear it
24 from the sounds or did the victims later tell you?
25 A. No. I personally didn't hear it, but I heard from other inmates
1 that the KP guards beat them. And on one occasion I saw Predrag
2 Stefanovic, after the meal, I saw him slap Pace Pasanovic, known as Pace.
3 I saw him slap him twice. And everything else took place either in that
4 passing room or by the gate. Sometimes they also beat people in the
5 isolation cells.
6 Q. You just mentioned this incident with guard -- Mr. Stefanovic
7 slapping Pace. When did this take place and where were you and what did
8 you see?
9 A. I was in Room 20 and waited for lunch, and we were observing them
10 as they were leaving the dining-room and lining up. So he, in front of
11 the kitchen, approached Pace and slapped him twice.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is incident 5.10 in the indictment, Your
14 Q. And do you recall when it was approximately, which month?
15 A. Well, I already told you: All of this happened in June, July,
16 August, September. I really cannot remember the date.
17 Q. Did you ever see detainees being beaten by soldiers within the
19 A. Yes. It took place one day around 1, 1.30, Room 16 went out to
20 eat lunch. And they finished their lunch and they started coming out and
21 lining up, and at that moment a group of six to eight armed soldiers
22 entered the compound of KP Dom. They approached and I saw from Room 18,
23 or rather, Room 20, I saw as they slapped Witness 214 and they cursed his
24 balija God, told him, "You balija, put your head down and put your hands
25 behind your back."
1 And when Room 16 finished their lunch, they interrupted serving
2 lunch to everybody else until Serbs from the compound finished their lunch
3 and went back.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness was referring to the
5 incident 5.12 in the indictment.
6 Q. Witness, you mentioned that the soldiers were armed. Was that
7 according to the rules in the prison, that soldiers with arms could go
8 there and enter the compound with arms?
9 A. Nobody was ever allowed to come into the compound armed.
10 Q. Are you referring to the system you knew from your work; is that
11 what you want to say?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when this incident happened, were guards present?
14 A. Only Milenko Cancar was present, and he interrupted lunch. I saw
15 that he became red. He stopped eating and sent those people back to Room
16 16 and did not let them come out until these soldiers left.
17 Q. Witness, you discussed with us several people who were taken out
18 and disappeared and that who were beaten. Did you fear to be taken out
19 and disappear as well when you saw that happen?
20 A. Well, I naturally was afraid and, however, since I had worked
21 there previously and since I knew that I could not be blamed for anything
22 and since I knew the people around, I did not have terrible fear.
23 However, it was weird, it was strange, especially when they beat people
24 and we could hear moans and screams, and we would go into another room
25 where we could not hear those screams.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. These victims, do they have anything in common that made them a
2 target for such violence? Could you, could you see something or could you
3 figure out?
4 A. I really could not figure out why those people were imprisoned.
5 There were over 530 people, and I could not really deduce why they were
6 locked up because if they were guilty, they would have run away. But they
7 remained there and they really didn't know why they were locked up, but
8 their reasoning was, "Why escape if we are not guilty."
9 Q. I was asking you about these people who were selected for beatings
10 and disappeared. Did they have something in common, that they became a
11 target of this special mistreatment?
12 A. No, nothing in common.
13 Q. Do you know a detainee Rasim Jusufovic?
14 A. Rasim Jusufovic was an educator, a teacher. He worked in an
15 elementary school Veselin Maslesa, and he was a physical education
16 teacher. His wife was a Serb. He had two children, a son and a
18 When all of this started, he fled to Montenegro because his wife
19 was originally from there. After that, he went to Voyvodina, and
20 supposedly his wife called the school to inquire as to whether he could go
21 back to work. They replied yes, and they went to the border at -- to the
22 border at which place Rasim was arrested and he was brought into the KP
23 Dom into Room 18.
24 Q. So does it mean he told that -- he himself gave you this
25 information, or how do you come to know that?
1 A. He told all that himself, how he had fled and how he had come back
2 to Foca, because we shared the room, or rather, we shared even the
4 Q. Did he have conversations, conversations with the -- with
5 Mr. Krnojelac?
6 A. Yes. Mr. Krnojelac was Rasim's colleague, and one morning the
7 guards called him and took him to gate 1. He was absent for about half an
8 hour, an hour, I don't know exactly, and he talked to Mr. Krnojelac, and
9 he came back to the room. I knew that they were colleagues, that they
10 were friends, so nothing bad about it.
11 And Rasim then told me that we would be divided into four groups,
12 that one group would be court-martialed, that another group would be taken
13 to the free territory, that a third group would be exchanged, and that a
14 fourth group would stay behind in the KP Dom.
15 Q. When did this conversation take place, the conversation between
16 Mr. Krnojelac and Rasim?
17 A. It was sometime in June or July, I cannot remember the date. But
18 I know it, and I'm quite positive about what I'm saying now because Rasim
19 told me about that. I know how he went and how he came back. And when I
20 asked him, "Who told you all that?" He said, "Krnojelac told me." And
21 that's how it was.
22 Q. You say "and that's how it was." In which group were you, could
23 you figure out?
24 A. I was in the group because I stayed until 1994, so I was with that
1 Q. And this group that you mentioned, the first group that was to be
2 court-martialed, what happened to this group? Could you figure out who
3 was in this group and what happened to them?
4 A. Those who were taken in the afternoon between half past three and
5 7.00 in the evening, they were allegedly taken before a judge.
6 Q. Did you ever see a judge in the KP Dom, or did you see a
7 court-martial functioning in the KP Dom?
8 A. I only saw Slavisa Prodanovic in the KP Dom because I know that he
9 was a judge before the war, but I don't think really -- I don't know --
10 no, he was not in the KP Dom.
11 Q. And you mentioned the group that was to be exchanged. Were people
12 exchanged, and did they actually later show -- were released?
13 A. Well, say in August, I remember Vlatko Pljevaljcic came in to Room
14 16 and asked for volunteers, and one -- I was one of those volunteers.
15 And he said to me, "You, come out. You are not going." And he was
16 followed by Predrag Stefanovic who came in, and a line was formed. But
17 then Predrag, he went out and came back with a list and then started
18 calling out names from that list. Those men left through gate 1 and did
19 not come back. That was August, September, I believe.
20 Q. And do you know who was in this group? Could you name anyone?
21 A. Well, for instance, I remember Crneta because he was next to me in
22 the line. I don't really remember many because as soon as they had formed
23 the line and took me away from it, I went to the dormitory.
24 Q. And this Crneta, what is his name, what is his full name, do you
25 know that?
1 A. His last name was Crneta. He was a manager of a unit in Maglic,
2 but his name, his first name, no, I can't remember it.
3 Q. Do you recall that a detainee once escaped?
4 A. Oh, yes, I remember that very well. That was detainee number
5 216. A group of 25 Muslims was working in the metal workshop - that was a
6 metal shop making frames for kiosks - and also a car mechanic shop, and
7 they also maintained the boiler room.
8 This witness fled from the compound across the bridge, reached the
9 town, and from the town through Ustikolina he reached Gornje Polje, from
10 there he got to Zastava which is above Foca, and he headed for Scepan
11 Polje. And allegedly, as he says, fog fell, so he lost his way and ended
12 up in a village, and villagers captured him there.
13 Q. As a consequence of this escape, did you suffer anything?
14 A. Well, we -- the others, yes, they suffered the consequences
15 because our rations were cut down by 75 per cent, all of us. And those
16 who worked with him, they indeed suffered consequences. They were beaten,
17 battered, locked up in solitary confinement. Todovic threatened,
18 threatened with a pistol that he would kill them all if he were not
20 Q. What happened when this detainee was brought back? Do you recall?
21 A. Well, we were not aware that he had been caught. One day they
22 came around ten or 11, took us out into the yard of the compound in front
23 of the kitchen next to a walnut tree, lined us up, and all of a sudden
24 Zekovic turned up with Savo Todovic and Mr. Krnojelac. Mr. Krnojelac was
25 wearing a uniform, and Savo Todovic was wearing a military uniform, too,
1 that is, of the former JNA.
2 And Savo Todovic then took us to task, or rather, delivered a
3 lecture telling us how the Serbs were humane and good, and how they could
4 have killed him but did not want to, and along those lines. Then they
5 took us back to the room, and they [as translated] were locked up in the
6 isolation cell, and he spent a month there. But we felt that, as I have
7 said, through the rations.
8 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac on other occasions in the, in the KP
10 A. I used to see him every day when he'd come to have his lunch -- or
11 rather, breakfast in the morning when he would go there to have his meal,
12 because all the KP Dom employees had their breakfast and lunch and dinner
13 in the compound as the restaurant outside the compound was not really in
14 proper order, it could not -- was not usable because it had been
15 devastated, destroyed.
16 Q. When you say you saw him every day, was that throughout your
17 detention or only through a period?
18 A. Well, I'd see him -- I saw him when I went to the window. When I
19 would be too tired of lying down or walking up and down, then I would go
20 to the window, and he came to have his breakfast around ten or half past
21 ten and wearing a military uniform.
22 Q. And when was the -- was the restaurant outside the KP Dom
23 reestablished at a point in time during your detention?
24 A. Well, I think it was -- that it went back into operation in 1993.
25 Q. And did you continue --
1 A. Late 1993 -- no, I don't remember. But yes, yes, it -- yes, it
2 opened again, and they did not come again. It was only Mitar Rasevic and
3 Savo Todovic who continued coming.
4 Q. Let me clarify that. When the restaurant was operating, did you
5 continue to see Mr. Krnojelac going to the meals as you described before,
6 or did it stop?
7 A. No, no, no. He stopped coming to the kitchen in the compound
8 because they all began then to patronise the restaurant after it was
10 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac, was he alone, or was he accompanied by
11 other prison staff or even people from outside?
12 A. At times alone, at times with other staff, with Mitar or Savo, and
13 on one occasion he was also with some commission of the Ministry of
14 Justice from Republika Srpska.
15 Q. When was that?
16 A. 1993.
17 Q. And did you actually see this commission and Mr. Krnojelac?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Where did you see them?
20 A. In the compound.
21 Q. What were they doing?
22 A. Touring around, I suppose.
23 Q. And --
24 A. I recognised one of them because he was a local from Foca who used
25 to work for us as a rehabilitator and then moved over to Kula in Sarajevo.
1 The others I did not know.
2 Q. And who was this person? What was the name of this person you
4 A. Cvorcan [Realtime transcript read in error "Sveten"] was his last
5 name. I don't know his first name.
6 Q. And how do you know it was a commission of the Ministry of
7 Justice? How do you know that?
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The transcript says "Sreten," and I
11 think it is a misprint. I do not think that is the correct name. The
12 witness did not say that. Cvorcan, and the witness said he did not know
13 the first name.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
15 Q. Could you maybe spell -- to clarify this, could you spell the
17 A. C-v-o-r-c-a-n. He held some office or other. He came from Butmir
18 prison in Sarajevo.
19 Q. But you said it was a commission of the Ministry of Justice. How
20 do you know that?
21 A. From guards.
22 Q. When was the accused replaced and by whom?
23 A. Mr. Krnojelac was replaced in 1993, I don't remember the date, and
24 Sekulovic I think, Ranko or - what was it? What was his name - came to
25 succeed him. He used to work for the promotion and public relations
1 department at Oslobodenje in Slatina which is about 12 kilometres from
2 Foca. He came to replace Mr. Krnojelac. That was allegedly a change
3 between the civilian and military authority. But only he was replaced,
4 and Savo Todovic and Rasevic stayed on.
5 Q. You said that was allegedly a change between the civilian and
6 military authorities. What do you mean by this?
7 A. I meant that as soon as the International Red Cross arrived,
8 changes for the better began to happen in the KP Dom.
9 Q. But just let me repeat what is in the transcript. You said -- the
10 replacement time: "That was allegedly a change between the civilian and
11 the military authorities." What do you refer to when you say that?
12 A. The civilian authorities exceeded the military authority.
13 Q. How do you know that?
14 A. Because the International Red Cross had entered the prison. The
15 military authorities would not allow - why, I do not know - would not
16 allow the Red Cross to enter the KP Dom.
17 Q. Until --
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's still not an answer to your question,
19 and it is rather an important issue. What you want to obtain from the
20 witness is how he was able to distinguish between those who were military
21 authorities and those who were civilian authorities. That's what you're
22 really after, isn't it?
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
24 Q. Witness, you heard the Presiding Judge. Could you answer this?
25 How do you distinguish between the two, the civilian and the military
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. Mr. Krnojelac was replaced and Sekulovic came instead. And as
3 soon as Sekulovic arrived, the Red Cross also entered the prison.
4 Q. You had explained to us in the beginning of your testimony or,
5 rather, in the beginning, the normal structure that you knew from the KP
6 Dom when you worked there, and then you mentioned announcements, that you
7 heard that Mr. Krnojelac became the warden. Do you say that it was the
8 military authorities ruling the prison when Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?
9 A. The party assigned people in all institutions. If you were not a
10 member of the SDS, then you could not become an executive.
11 Q. From which facts do you come to say that it was the military
12 authorities that were in charge in the prison before the Red Cross came?
13 From which facts do you have this opinion?
14 A. Because they were all in JNA uniforms, so I concluded that by the
16 Q. What uniforms did the guards wear?
17 A. The guards were in their old uniforms, and then they changed into
18 multicoloured police uniforms, because they spent 15 days in the prison
19 and 15 days on the front line.
20 Q. How do you know that?
21 A. Well, I simply stopped seeing them in the KP Dom, because -- and
22 then a shift would change and he would be back in the KP Dom for 10 or 15
23 days and would then go to the front line again.
24 Q. Witness, who was second in command under the accused Krnojelac?
25 A. I don't think there was anyone.
1 Q. And then Mr. Rasevic, when you look at the prison hierarchy, where
2 was he? Where was he placed then?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, objection. This is a
4 leading question.
5 JUDGE HUNT: No, it's not. It's not a leading question. It's a
6 simple question: Where did he fit into the prison hierarchy? There is
7 evidence that he did fit within it. The question is where. I think
8 you're drawing an inference from the fact that they had been previously
9 discussing the second in command, but it's not asking whether he was
10 second in command; it's just asking where he was. That's not a leading
12 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. Please answer the question, Witness. Where was Mr. Rasevic in
15 this chain of command in the prison? During your detention, not before.
16 During your detention, where was he?
17 A. Mitar Rasevic was the commander of the police or, rather, of the
18 prison guards. And Savo Todovic was a kind of a responsible clerk,
19 because he had either graduated from a higher administrative school or a
20 legal school, and he was a clerk responsible for us, because he assigned
21 various jobs and tasks to us. That is, "You go to the factory, to the
22 farm, to Maglic, to Tjentiste, to the mine," because it was a warden's
23 duty to do that thing and to assign people to various jobs. It was always
24 the responsibility of a clerk in charge of such matters.
25 Q. Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic, did they have the same level of
1 authority within the chain of command or was one the superior of the
3 A. I wouldn't know. They were all subordinated to the warden. And
4 how they had split duties between them, I do not know. Rasevic should be
5 the guard commander, and he was responsible for the security of the KP
7 Q. Did you have more contacts with Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic than
8 with Mr. Krnojelac?
9 A. I never had any contact with Mr. Krnojelac; only with Rasevic and
10 Todovic, with Rasevic and Todovic.
11 Q. You have already mentioned that Mr. Todovic was a responsible
12 clerk for assigning various jobs for the detainees. What else were his
13 responsibilities, as far as you could see?
14 A. I wouldn't know.
15 Q. And his responsibilities in assigning jobs, was that for all
16 detainees in the prison or was it only for the Muslims?
17 A. Muslims and Serbs equally, because he also assigned Serbs, those
18 who were serving long terms. He sent them to the furniture factory.
19 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Rasevic or Mr. Todovic beat detainees or
20 mistreat them?
21 A. I heard about that when that escape had happened, but I did not
22 see that, but I also heard that they were among those who beat.
23 Q. Did the one or the other ever threaten you or other detainees?
24 A. Well, yes. Savo Todovic threatened to send me to the mine, and I
25 told him, "Savo, you'll never live to see the day with me working in the
2 Q. Was it a threat to work in the mine, to you?
3 A. Well, yes, it was a threat.
4 Q. I would like to discuss with you a few staff members.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And for this purpose, I would like to have
6 the Exhibit P55 in front of the witness -- oh, sorry. Sorry. P3, P3.
7 Q. Witness, would you please look at the person number 3, that's
8 Milorad Krnojelac, and would you please look at the dates given in this
9 list. You see the date 18th April 1992 to 8 September 1994. Did you see
10 Mr. Krnojelac that long time, that is, 1994?
11 A. Sorry. It says 18th April 1992 to the 17th of July, 1992. That
12 is what it says here on my paper. This is not right.
13 Q. You're on the wrong list -- sorry, you are in the wrong column,
15 A. Oh, yes. I'm sorry. I am sorry. Yes, that is the correct date,
16 18th April 1992 to -- I think this is correct.
17 Q. Do you see the date --
18 A. No, no, no.
19 Q. Witness, what kind of paper are you checking?
20 A. The one issued by the International Red Cross, because --
21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... checking on this document?
22 JUDGE HUNT: It may be that you need another document with a
23 different number. Wasn't there some concession by the Prosecution in this
24 case as to the cut-off date when Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but the relevance of my question is
1 actually I want to find out with the witness the reliability of this list.
2 JUDGE HUNT: I see.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is where I'm heading at.
4 Q. Witness --
5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, make sure we've got the right document. That's
6 the next thing. You asked for P3.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, and P3 should be the list of employees.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Not the Red Cross list.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, not the Red Cross list. It should be in
10 front of him.
11 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]
12 JUDGE HUNT: It may be that we had better have a look at the
13 document he's looking at, because it may not be P3.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, would you please
15 show me --
16 JUDGE HUNT: But even with the skewed version that each of you
17 seem to have with that clock, it's one minute to 4.00. It hardly seems
18 worthwhile at this stage. We'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.59 p.m., to
20 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of January,
21 2000, at 9.30 a.m.