1 Wednesday, 24
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting you, but
13 our defendant insists, insists on informing this Trial Chamber of his
14 objections and his comments relating to how things are -- how people are
15 brought before this Tribunal because he is claiming that the handcuffs
16 that they usually put on his hands are too tight, and they leave marks on
17 his arms and hands. I promised to him that I would look into this, but my
18 client insisted that I bring this up before this Trial Chamber.
19 He also wanted me to bring up that for the third day in a row now,
20 he has not had his glasses because he -- the prison -- detention unit
21 administration took upon itself to repair his glasses, and so he has not
22 had his own glasses for several days now and has had to use borrowed
23 glasses, and so he wanted me to bring this up before this Trial Chamber.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I must say, the Trial Chamber would be very
25 sympathetic to anybody who had to be here with somebody else's glasses. I
1 don't know what the need was for the repair, but does he have his own
2 glasses now?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. His glasses were
4 sent for repair before this hearing began, and he used -- my client used
5 the glasses he borrowed from somebody else who did not have a hearing last
6 week, but this person, whose glasses my client is using now, does have a
7 hearing this week so needs the glasses himself.
8 JUDGE HUNT: How long ago were the glasses sent for repair?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] On January 17th.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. The Trial Chamber, of course, has
11 no jurisdiction to make any orders in respect of this, but I'll have the
12 registry make an inquiry about the glasses, and we'll draw your client's
13 complaint to the attention of the prison authorities. If you do have to
14 follow up anything about that, you should make a complaint to the, first
15 of all, the registrar, and if he is unable to resolve it, to the
16 president. But one hopes that if the complaint is made now and officially
17 to the prison authorities, they will get on and do something about it.
18 If there is any further problem, I suggest you approach the
19 registrar first.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. And I
21 apologise for taking up the time to bring this up, but my client wanted
22 this to -- wanted me to inform the Trial Chamber of this, and I had to
23 respect his wishes. Thank you.
24 JUDGE HUNT: You need not apologise. It is a matter which we
25 would be concerned about whether we had authority to do something about it
1 or not.
2 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 WITNESS: FWS-138 [Resumed]
5 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
7 Q. Good morning, witness.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. Witness, yesterday when we were talking about the list of
10 employees, you took out a piece of paper in front of you to check some
11 dates. What was it?
12 A. That was a paper document from the International Red Cross.
13 Q. Do you have it with you now?
14 A. I think I do.
15 Q. What date does this document have?
16 A. There is a date when the International Red Cross entered KP Dom
17 for the first time, 23rd of March, 1993.
18 Q. Would you please show this -- would you please tell us the date of
19 the document, when this document was made? I would like to know what
20 document it is.
21 A. Document was issued on the 24th of October, 1994.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this document should be in the
23 trial binder, and it is -- has the identification number 259, but I got
24 the impression yesterday that the Defence wants to see the original.
25 Q. Could you, Witness, could you please, with the help of the usher,
1 show around the document.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can I have a look?
3 Your Honours, this is indeed the document 259, the original of
4 this document ID 259.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, show it to Mr. Bakrac. If he wants to check it
6 against the copy before the copy is tendered, he may see it.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think he did.
8 JUDGE HUNT: So you have no objection, then, to the tender of the
9 copy, Mr. Bakrac?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The copy of the document ID 259 will be
12 Exhibit P259, and it will be under seal.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
14 Q. Witness, just if you look at the document it says, on the document
15 it says the ICRC was notified -- you were notified as present on the 30th
16 of August, 1992. Did the Red Cross visit the KP Dom on that date, and
17 were you registered in August 1992?
18 A. I was registered in Sarajevo with the Red Cross there as a person
19 who disappeared in Foca, and it wasn't until 1993 when that International
20 Red Cross entered the KP Dom because they were not allowed to enter it
21 prior to that.
22 Q. How did it come that you were registered in Sarajevo with the Red
23 Cross as a missing person? Who actually -- how did that come about?
24 A. My relatives registered me in Sarajevo. They found out that I had
25 disappeared, and they immediately informed the Red Cross in Sarajevo about
2 Q. And on the document there is also the line, "Was registered by
3 ICRC delegate on the 23rd of June, 1993." Is that correct? Is that your
5 A. Yes. This is when they entered for the first time.
6 Q. And it says also the release date here on this document as the 6th
7 of October, 1994. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you also receive a document from the State Commission of the
10 Location of Missing Persons?
11 A. I did, from the State Commission of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from
12 Mr. Masovic, and the date was 10th of May, 1992, until the 6th of October,
13 1992. The place of exchange is indicated here, and that is the bridge
14 called bridge Bratsvo-Jedinstvo in Sarajevo.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is document ID 258. And
16 as I see, the witness has the original with him as well. Would the
17 Defence want to check the original?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Have you any objection to the tender of the
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Exhibit - I'm sorry - the document ID 258 will
23 be Exhibit P258 and it will again be under seal.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 With the help of the usher, I would like to have P3 put to the
1 witness. That's the list of employees of the KP Dom.
2 Q. Witness, it is not necessary that we talk about all of the
3 employees listed on this lengthy list. I will talk -- I will always refer
4 to the number this person has on this list, and we only talk about some
5 specific persons.
6 First of all, would you please look --
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, the translation is document
9 Q. First look at number 3, Milorad Krnojelac. You have already told
10 us when you saw him and how long he was in the KP Dom. In the last
11 row -- the last column, there is a remark on this list referring to his
12 position as acting warden from the 18th of April till the 17th of July.
13 Do you remember the 17th of July? Did anything change in the KP Dom at
14 that day?
15 A. As far as I remember, Sekulovic, Ranko, replaced - I apologise -
16 Sekulovic, Zoran, replaced Milorad Krnojelac.
17 Q. And the 17th of July, 1992, does that stick in -- and did anything
18 happen on this day? Do you recall anything particular?
19 A. No, I don't remember.
20 Q. Please go further on in the list to the person number 6, Dragisa
21 Milic. Was this person working in the prison when you were detained?
22 A. He was a truck driver at the farm, and before the war he worked as
23 a psychologist at the KP Dom.
24 Q. Did he work as a psychologist during your detention?
25 A. No. He worked as a driver.
1 Q. And now please move on to the person number 9, Risto Ivanovic.
2 And was he -- what was he doing while you were detained?
3 A. Ivanovic, Risto, also known as Rile, we had a guard with that name
4 and he was there the entire time.
5 Q. And how did he treat the detainees? Do you know?
6 A. Well. Because everybody praised him. He was fair.
7 Q. Yes. And now move on to number 17, Dragomir Blagojevic. Was he
8 in the prison, and what was he doing during -- we are talking during your
9 time of detention only.
10 A. Blagojevic, Dragomir was a guard at the KP Dom before the war and
11 he was there during the war as a guard. Muslims' complaint of him that he
12 was mistreating them and provoking them.
13 Q. And when you look at the dates when he was -- you see the column
14 number 4 with the date when he started to work, and the column number 5
15 when he stopped working, and there is a gap in there from 10 September
16 1992 to 2 September 1993. My question is: Was he there in the KP Dom all
17 the time during your detention or was there actually a one-year gap?
18 A. I stated yesterday that they used to go to the front line, but I
19 did see him at the KP Dom when I was there.
20 Q. And now the person number 20, and go through from 20 to 26. Were
21 these people in the KP Dom, and what were they doing?
22 A. Perisic, Vasilije came in later. Kunarac, Slavko worked at the
23 farm. He was killed in Ustikolina when he stepped on a mine. Stefanovic,
24 Predrag was there, worked the entire time; Milic, Milivoje as well. Miro
25 Sekulovic came in later. Zdravko Ivanovic worked at the farm. Milenko
1 Cancar came in later. Milan Bogdanic worked there the entire time.
2 Momcilo Popadic worked in security.
3 Q. You have just mentioned them. How did they treat the detainees?
4 Is there anyone in particular?
5 A. I would like to single out Predrag Stefanovic, Milivoje Milic, and
6 I would simply like to highlight these two as those who behaved
7 inappropriately towards the Muslims.
8 Q. When you say "behaved inappropriately," what did they do?
9 A. Well, I heard from the inmates that they were beaten by them at
10 gate 1 and in that Passing Room. I didn't see it myself.
11 Q. Please move on to the person number 30. Who was he?
12 A. Risto Gojanovic worked in security. He was a tutor, educator at
13 the KP Dom, and he also worked at the elementary school.
14 Q. Does that mean he was not a guard?
15 A. He was a guard. He was in security.
16 Q. Yes. And how did he treat the detainees?
17 A. I haven't heard anything bad as far as he's concerned.
18 Q. And the person number 32, Slavko Koroman, what can you tell us
19 about him and his position?
20 A. Slavko Koroman was the guard supervisor before the war. He
21 retired also before the war, and since they didn't have -- since they were
22 short-staffed, they used to hire or call back the retired individuals as
24 Slavko Koroman was before the war some kind of a supervisor, but
25 he didn't stay there for a long time. Perhaps a month to a month and a
1 half. I haven't heard anything bad about him, either. And as far as the
2 rest are concerned, I don't know.
3 Q. And now the persons under the number 34 to 36, what can you tell
4 us about them?
5 A. Elcic mistreated Muslims, that's what I heard, Pljevaljcic as
6 well, and I haven't heard anything bad about Zoran Lalovic. Risto Matovic
7 was a driver. I didn't see him.
8 Q. And person 41, Momcilo Ristanovic, what did he do? What can you
9 tell us about his behaviour?
10 A. As far as am concerned, he was fair.
11 Q. And now --
12 A. He worked in security.
13 Q. Thank you. And now the persons 45 to -- through to actually 52.
14 A. Milovan Vukovic worked in security. I heard that he mistreated
15 people as well. Obrenovic, Radomir, I heard bad things about him.
16 Matovic, Mladen -- Matovic, Zoran, he's the one who locked me up in the
17 solitary confinement cell. Ljubomir Petkovic worked in security. I
18 didn't hear anything bad about him. Milan Perisic, he got sick and I
19 didn't really see him there.
20 Q. And 51, Miro Prodanovic?
21 A. Miro Prodanovic, I also heard bad things of him. He was a
22 supervisor throughout the war. He never left the KP Dom during that
23 time. Vukovic, Radovan, I also heard bad things about him.
24 Q. And when you say "bad things," what does that mean?
25 A. Mistreated and beat people.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. We have also talked about Mr. Rasevic. Could you please go to
2 number 55 who was the -- 55 and 56.
3 A. Savic, Jovo, was also a guard. I heard very bad things of him.
4 Milenko Burilo, this is a person that I heard the worst things about. He
5 was one of those who beat people the most. Everybody knew him, and his
6 nickname was Busi.
7 Q. Now the persons listed under 65 and 66.
8 A. Vladicic, Milenko, I heard that he beat people. I heard bad
9 things about him. He works at the KP Dom now; he is there still to this
10 date. And what was the next number?
11 Q. Sixty-six.
12 A. Milivoje Milutinovic, I also heard bad things about him. He is
13 from Miljevina. He was a guard.
14 Q. And number 70?
15 A. Zoran Mijovic. He worked in security, but he was there for a very
16 short time, and I didn't see a lot of him.
17 Q. And we have already talked about Mr. Radojica Tesevic under number
18 72, and it says here on this document that he was the appointed director
19 of the farm unit in August 1993. Are you aware -- did you see him in the
20 prison during your detention time?
21 A. I did. He toured the furniture factory in 1993 and 1994.
22 Q. And the person 79, Rade Gagovic, who he was?
23 A. He was a rehabilitation officer in KP Dom. I would see him in a
24 military uniform, but not often.
25 Q. And the person 91?
1 A. Slobodan Pejic. He was at the KP Dom as well, in security. I
2 heard bad things about him as well.
3 Q. Now these people listed under -- beginning in 94, from 94 through
4 to 113, what kind of staff was that?
5 A. Misko Markovic, Vide Boskovic, Zoran Novovic, Dojcilo Davidovic,
6 Slobodan Micevic, Nebojsa Krunic, Radivoje Jegdic, Petar Gagovic, Milomir
7 Malic, guard, Zdravka Matovic, Rosa Babic, Savka Pavlovic, Gojko
8 Dragicevic, Mira Pavlovic, Jovanka Krunic, Desa Ikonic, Ljiljana Radovic,
9 Zorka Ivnovic. Branko Stefanovic, I don't know him. Jelisavka Djokic,
10 she didn't work there. Well, this is what I have to say.
11 Q. Yes, but where did these people -- except for Maric, Maric, the
12 guard, where did these other people work? Were they actually in the KP
13 Dom? Did you see them there and ...
14 A. I saw these ladies at KP Dom. Jegdic, Radivoje, I saw
15 occasionally. Krunic, Nebojsa, occasionally. Slobodan Mircevic,
16 occasionally. They worked in security, either within the compound or
17 the -- or on the outside.
18 They had some kind of a bunker near the cinema, and they also had
19 a path that they guarded, that those who worked in Maglic outside of the
20 KP Dom guarded. And they would use contacts, there were special contacts
21 to be assigned to work at the KP Dom, rather than go and work at the
22 factory, rather than go to the front.
23 And these ladies that are mentioned here, some of them worked at
24 the prison quarters and some of them worked in administration.
25 Q. And these people listed here, did they actually have contact with
1 the detainees, and how did they then treat the detainees?
2 A. They did not have any contact with them because they were just too
3 far so that they communicated very, very little.
4 Q. And the person listed under 116, yesterday you mentioned that he
5 was a judge before the war, but he did not work as a judge at that time,
6 or was he related to this court-martial that you mentioned yesterday?
7 JUDGE HUNT: This is a matter that has been investigated by the
8 Prosecutor when he appeared before -- before he appeared as counsel here.
9 What is the purpose of all of this?
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Only I want -- the Prosecution wants to point
11 out that there was no court-martial in the prison as such.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Why don't you ask him? Why are we going through all
13 of this? Is this for some future investigation, or is it relevant to this
14 present case?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it is relevant to this case. That is our
17 JUDGE HUNT: All right. May I suggest, if that's all you're
18 interested in, why don't you just ask the witness. But Mr. Prodanovic has
19 been appearing before this Trial Chamber, actually, as counsel; and at the
20 time when he first appeared, the Prosecutor raised this issue that he had
21 worked as a guard in a prison, and it was fully investigated, and it was
22 then stated that there was nothing known against him.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I know, Your Honour. But the witness
24 yesterday said that Mr. Prodanovic was a judge, and he did not then tell
25 us what he was actually doing.
1 JUDGE HUNT: He said he was a judge before the war.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Which he may or may not have been. He was a lawyer.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
5 JUDGE HUNT: But I'm not sure why we're spending all this time on
6 this very long document going through each one, one by one by one. What
7 is the point of it all?
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The point is that we want to have the guards
9 pointed out and certain people that were mentioned by witnesses, what
10 position they had and how they treated the detainees.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if that's what you're doing, most of these
12 haven't been mentioned in any of the evidence so far. But let's get on
13 with it. If it's going to be something that can be dealt with speedily,
14 just lead him to the ones which are really relevant to the case.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
16 Q. The person number 120, the person number 120, what can you tell us
17 about him, 120 on the list?
18 A. Vaso Pljevaljcic was there throughout. He was also a supervisor
19 or rather, a guard. Bad things were said about him, too.
20 Q. And the person 135, Vitomir Micevic?
21 A. Another guard, and bad things were said about him too, about how
22 he treated people and behaved.
23 Q. And the person number 137?
24 A. Radomir Papovic, he was wounded in the early days of the war, did
25 not come for work, but he did turn up later. Well, and he was -- well,
1 here and there, as far as I'm concerned. He was quite decent. But some
2 may have complained of him.
3 Q. And the last person, 143.
4 A. Svetislav Krunic also came later. I heard no complaints against
5 him. And he is still employed by the KP Dom. He's their senior guard,
7 Q. Thank you. That's enough with the list.
8 Witness, did you suffer any physical or mental consequences as a
9 result of the conditions at the KP Dom, you personally?
10 A. Well, naturally, I did. Naturally, I did suffer some
11 psychological consequences. I had to undergo surgery when I arrived in
12 Sarajevo, and abdominal intervention.
13 Q. Did this surgery relate to your detention, the conditions?
14 A. It must have, because I had no complaints before the war, as I
15 went for regular medical check-ups every year and I was quite fit to work.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. Your Honour, these are the
17 questions of the Prosecution.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 Cross-examination. Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. I'm
23 looking for a paper.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
25 Q. Good morning. Good morning, sir. I'm Mihajlo Bakrac and I'm one
1 of the counsel defending the accused Milorad Krnojelac.
2 In the beginning of your testimony here you explained where your
3 house was and what had happened to it. Do you know and can you tell us
4 where was Milorad Krnojelac's house? Do you know that and did you know
6 A. Mr. Krnojelac's house was in Donje Polje neighbourhood community,
7 and that is where I lived too. It is about two kilometres away from my
8 house, nearer the elementary school Ivan Goran Kovacic.
9 Q. Thank you. And do you know what happened to the house of the
10 accused Krnojelac in the early days of the conflict?
11 A. It was set on fire.
12 Q. Are you aware if there were any other houses in the neighbourhood,
13 I mean Serb houses, set on fire?
14 A. Yes. Across the Ivan Goran Kovacic elementary school there were
15 other houses torched.
16 Q. Thank you. You also spoke about the capacity of the KP Dom before
17 the war, that is, (redacted). And if I
18 understood what you said, you said that the KP Dom could accommodate
19 between 1.000 and 1.200 prisoners but it also included outside buildings.
20 And after that you also mentioned the farm for about 100 prisoners and the
21 fish farm for some 20, 25 men. So could we then agree that the capacity
22 of the inner compound of the prison was somewhere between 1.000 and 1.100
24 A. (redacted), I found in the prison itself
25 about 1.020, 1.030 prisoners.
1 Q. So that is the inner compound, which does not include any outside
2 building or outposts?
3 A. Yes. That's buildings 1 and 2.
4 Q. Thank you. You also said that the women's prison at Velecevo was
5 under the supervision of the male prison. By this, did you mean the time
6 before the armed conflict?
7 A. Before the armed conflict. And Velecevo later on was turned into
8 military headquarters, and now it is the faculty of theology.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. (redacted)
10 (redacted), prisoners were taken to work and that they were
11 remunerated accordingly. Does that mean that they were all paid the same
12 amounts of money as free people, that is, as professionals?
13 A. I mentioned the construction business, for instance, those who
14 worked at various construction sites in Sarajevo, and what they received
15 in salary was even more than I got.
16 Q. But was that an exception or a rule? Did all the prisoners earn
17 that much?
18 A. Well, that was an exception.
19 Q. Yesterday you also said a great deal about the organisational
20 layout of the KP Dom before the war, before the general mobilisation, and
21 what you said yesterday about the structure and layout of the KP Dom, that
22 you told us yesterday, did you tell us about it in peacetime conditions or
23 later on, in wartime, when you were there as a prisoner?
24 A. In peacetime. But again, it was the same structure; the same
25 organisation continued in time of war.
1 Q. You also spoke yesterday about disciplinary sanctions. My
2 question is: (redacted), was it
3 possible that in case of some excesses by a convict, the guard himself
4 would take that person to the isolation cell, that is, himself sanctions
5 the convict?
6 A. The guard had no authority to pronounce any punishment. All he
7 could do was lock a person up.
8 Q. Yesterday you spoke about that, but I think it remained rather
9 vague. When you arrived in the -- or rather, when you were detained in
10 the KP Dom, did you find there a certain number of persons of Serb
11 ethnicity who had been serving there the final judgements?
12 A. I did not find any one of them; Serbs, I mean.
13 Q. Yesterday you spoke how there were some Serbs detained in the KP
14 Dom but in a separate part of building B.
15 A. Detention of Serbs began when they refused to go to the front or
16 because of fighting at the front, because of a murder, because of murders
17 in Trebinje, Gacko and Bileca. That is, the court had finally begun to
18 function and they therefore started to bring them to the Foca
20 Q. Are you aware if there were some Serbs working at the farm, I mean
21 those who had been sentenced and were serving their sentence there?
22 A. No, I was not aware of that, but I know that two Muslims from the
23 penitentiary went up there and worked at the farm, and that a woman from
24 Stolac was a woman who took their meals and looked after those men working
25 at the farm, and that woman was a Muslim.
1 Q. Yesterday you said that you had seen the accused at the Sutjeska
2 stadium, at a rally. Could you tell us exactly where was the stage in
3 which all these speakers stood?
4 A. I cannot remember. I know they were among the audience -- I
5 remember they were among the audience, but I think that it was in the
6 centre, but I'm not quite sure. Quite close to the public.
7 Q. When you say "public," yesterday you spoke about stalls, about
8 stands. Were those the only ones that were at the stadium?
9 A. Well, they were there and the public were there in -- on those
10 stands, in those stalls.
11 Q. Which means that that is where you saw the accused?
12 A. Yes. He was with all the other front men.
13 Q. And where were you?
14 A. Amongst the public.
15 Q. Does that mean that you were also a member of the SDS?
16 A. No. I attended rallies of all the parties, because I was not a
17 member of any party and I was simply curious to know. Anyone could
19 Q. Thank you, sir.
20 A. It was a pleasure.
21 Q. Yesterday you mentioned an incident involving Balic. Is it true
22 that you gave two statements to OTP investigators and one to the Security
23 Centre in Sarajevo and that you did not mention the incident with Balic in
24 any one of those statements?
25 A. I cannot remember. That was a long time ago.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, when you are answering one of Mr. Bakrac's
2 questions, you should understand that the interpreter has to interpret
3 both the question and the answer, so would you please pause before you
4 answer to enable the interpreter to catch up. Do you understand that?
5 A. Yes, thank you, I do.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So my question was: Why didn't you mention the incident with
8 Balic before and that it came up only yesterday while you were answering
9 the Prosecutor's questions?
10 A. Well, I suppose I did not remember it at the time, because so many
11 things happened, and one can't remember it all, two and a half years in a
12 camp. One really had to make an effort to remember it all.
13 Q. Thank you. Yesterday my learned friend asked you, but we did not
14 get an answer, so I'm taking it up again. When was Aziz Torlak taken for
15 exchange? Can you remember that?
16 A. No, I cannot recall the date, but I know that it was around half
17 past 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning one July, August, September morning, and
18 I heard from a Serb that the exchange had failed and that he had been
20 Q. Yes. You say July, August, September. Which year?
21 A. 1993. No, no, no. 1992.
22 Q. So was it 1992 or 1993?
23 A. I can't -- I really can't remember.
24 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned an incident with Salko
25 Mandzo. Where did you see him?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Salko Mandzo, called Kelta, worked at a farm for a while, and he
2 was in my room and he told me about the incident.
3 Q. Did he tell you that in the KP Dom surgery?
4 A. No, no, no. He was not in the surgery. He was in the room.
5 Q. Yesterday you testified how you went to see the doctor "in our
6 surgery, in our clinic." Whom did you find there?
7 A. Well, that medical technician, Mandzo.
8 Q. And what was he doing there?
9 A. He was being administered medical assistance.
10 Q. Let's clarify this. Which Mandzo was being extended aid?
11 A. Not Kelta, but the medical technician Mandzo, and I mentioned his
12 name yesterday. It escapes me now.
13 Q. But who was extending aid to him in your clinic?
14 A. In the prison.
15 Q. Yes, I got that when you said "in our surgery, in our clinic," I
16 understood that it was in the prison. But who was it who was extending
17 aid to him?
18 A. Gojko Jokanovic, a nurse, a Serb.
19 Q. Was he in the KP Dom on a daily basic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And apart from him, were there any physicians there, for instance,
22 Dr. Dobrilovic, Vladicic?
23 A. In the early days of the war I used to see Vladicic, and while
24 there were any medicines, they came. And while there were any other
25 medical supplies, before it was all removed from there and taken away,
1 they came; but after all that, only -- Gojko was the only one who worked
3 Q. Yesterday you said that guards would call out and take away
4 prisoners to gate 1 of the KP Dom. Do you know who took them over from
5 them there?
6 A. The guards called them out, took to the gate, but nobody could see
7 who was -- who would take them over from there.
8 Q. Thank you. On the 17th of October in 1994, did you make a
9 statement to the Public Security Centre in Sarajevo?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. And did you sign that statement?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Would it jog your memory if I showed you the signature on the
15 A. It might very well be that I did sign it.
16 Q. Is it true that in that statement you said as of June -- in June
17 1992, beating and harassment of prisoners at night began. This was done
18 by members of the military police who would arrive to the -- who would
19 arrive in the KP Dom at sunset?
20 A. The guards took them out and who tortured people, that I did not
22 Q. I'm asking you, is it true that you stated this to the Public
23 Security Centre in Sarajevo.
24 A. Well, if it says so, then perhaps I did.
25 Q. Thank you. Is it correct to say that you made two statements to
1 OTP investigators on the 25th and 26th of June, 1996, the first one, and
2 the second on the 22nd of October, 1998.
3 A. As far as I can remember, I gave one statement to the Tribunal in
4 Marsal, which is the former JNA barracks.
5 Q. So you did not give them two statements, the first one on the
6 25th, 26th of June, 1996, when the interview was conducted by Racine Manas
7 and the interpreter was Amira Bojadzija; and the second one when my
8 learned friend, who also conducted examination-in-chief, and Investigator
9 Thapa with interpreter Kanita Halilovic took the statement from you?
10 A. As far as I can remember, I only gave one statement, but ...
11 Q. And when was it, in 1996 or 1998?
12 A. 1998.
13 Q. 1998. Before that you did not make -- give any statements to the
15 A. No, not as far as I can remember, but I may have.
16 Q. I shall read to you the beginning of the second statement, the one
17 of 1998: "I have given a previous statement to the ICTY." Is that true
18 or is it not true, what I have just read to you?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Did you in one of those statements say that prisoners would always
21 be taken out between 1800 and 1900 hours?
22 A. Around half past three?
23 Q. No. Between 1800 and 1900, prisoners would always be taken
24 between 1800 and 1900?
25 A. Oh, yes, yes, I did. That is, that is correct.
1 Q. So what you said yesterday, that they were taken out between 1500
2 and 1700, was not correct?
3 A. They were taken out between half past three until 1900 because it
4 was summertime.
5 Q. You just said that it was correct that they were taken out between
6 1800 and 1900, between 6.00 and 7.00 p.m.
7 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, he hasn't said that. He has agreed that
8 that's what he said in the statement. You are asking him, "Didn't you say
9 in the statement," and he said "that is correct." Now, if you want to say
10 that what he said in the statement is correct, you'd better get him to
11 confirm it.
12 But whilst I have interrupted you, may I point out that the
13 witness has not accepted the statements that you have put to him, from the
14 statement he gave to the Sarajevo Security Centre. He just said he may
15 have said them. He has not accepted that he made a statement in 1996 to
16 the tribunal's investigators or to the OTP's investigators. So you should
17 not assume that you can rely upon anything he says in those statements at
18 this stage.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I took it, Your Honours, that he
20 said, "Oh, yes, that's what I said," and then there was a full stop, and
21 then after that he said, "That is correct." I took it that he confirmed
22 that it was correct with respect to the time, and this is the reason why I
23 asked this question. But I think that now after this entire discussion it
24 would be useless to ask this question again, so I will get on with my next
1 JUDGE HUNT: I don't want to divert you, but I want to warn you
2 that this is not the situation, for example, that we debated several times
3 last year where there had been a complete acceptance of what had been said
4 in the statement. You have not got, in my view, an acceptance of anything
5 other than that he had said in the statement that they were always taken
6 out between 1800 and 1900, where he went on to say -- reassert what he
7 said yesterday was the correct view.
8 But I don't want you to pass on, on any assumption that you've got
9 an acceptance from the witness. It's a matter for you what you want to do
10 about it. I don't want to divert you from your task, but I want to make
11 it very clear that you have not got, in my view, a clear acceptance of
12 anything other than that one statement.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Let's leave
14 it at this because since the witness has already heard what we had just
15 discussed, I think that that would certainly influence his answers, so
16 this is why I will start with my next question.
17 Q. Yesterday you discussed the so-called passing room or through
18 room. Did I understand you correctly that the window of this passing room
19 faced the street in front of the entrance into the KP Dom and also in
20 front of the bridge across the Drina?
21 A. Yes, the window faced the street.
22 Q. Does this passing room have a window facing the inner circle of
23 the compound?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would you agree with me that between this passing room and the
1 inner compound there was a hallway, and then after the hallway came the
2 second row of rooms?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in one of your statements you stated
5 that Savo Todovic was in charge of prisoners and forced labour?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Did you also state that Savo Todovic was in prison day
8 and night?
9 A. I saw a bed in his office, but I didn't normally see him in the
10 evenings. I remember that once he took me out around 5.00 in the
12 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in one of your statements you stated
13 the following, and this is a statement given to the Prosecution on 25th
14 and 26th of June, page 3 in the B/C/S version, fifth paragraph: "In KP
15 Dom I was treated fairly, except for the fact that I was forced to work
16 mostly in the agricultural area. I knew the guards well, and every time
17 when I complained about certain assignments given to me, they wouldn't do
18 anything to me."
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. You stated yesterday that they treated you strictly officially and
21 were even worse than that, rougher sometimes?
22 A. Yes, I was even locked up in the solitary confinement cell.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you ever, before or just ever, notice that Milorad
24 Krnojelac had some anti-Muslim sentiments?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in your statements given to the
2 Prosecution and the Public Security Centre, you stated that you believed
3 that nobody ever saw Milorad Krnojelac present at the time when the
4 prisoners or detainees were taken out for beatings?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you also in your statements state that Todovic and
7 Rasevic would come in to check on the detainees?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you also state it that you never saw Krnojelac do that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you also state to the OTP investigators very clearly,
12 obviously to a very clear question put to you, that --
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I began, Your Honour, but I don't
14 know if you this individual whose name that I was about to mention is a
15 protected witness. I'm referring to a witness --
16 JUDGE HUNT: You mean this person is a witness in this trial?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] He is scheduled to come in to testify
18 as a Trial Chamber's witness.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know that we have ever asked for any witness
20 to come.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We don't have him on the list, but my
22 colleague here is aware of it.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is the witness that is summoned.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Oh.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But --
1 JUDGE HUNT: We have given him --
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have given him a pseudonym.
3 JUDGE HUNT: -- a pseudonym.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: However, yesterday we used the name because
5 no protective measures are requested yet, but it may, of course, happen.
7 JUDGE HUNT: That doesn't help by saying that. I think that
8 better be redacted what you just said. I don't remember, (redacted)
9 (redacted); do you remember?
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: RJ.
11 JUDGE HUNT: So you can refer to him as RJ, Mr. Bakrac.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours, but I don't
13 know if we should for a moment switch into private session so that I can
14 say this to the witness, or should I simply put it in writing, this
15 witness's name, and then refer to this witness (redacted)? Whatever
16 you think, whatever you think is easiest.
17 JUDGE HUNT: As long as the witness knows who you are speaking
18 to. Have you got the document you could show him? That would be the
19 quickest way of dealing with this.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I believe the witness is nodding, so
21 that means he probably knows who I'm referring to, (redacted)
22 Q. Did you clearly state to the OTP investigators the following: "RJ
23 did not mention to me that Krnojelac had found a corpse in his office."
24 A. I never stated this.
25 Q. You did not state what?
1 A. Anything pertaining to this corpse.
2 Q. So this is a completely new statement for you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In order to avoid any confusion, I'm repeating here that when
5 clearly asked, explicitly asked by the Prosecution, you replied that he
6 did not tell you that Krnojelac had found a corpse. So I take it that
7 this is then correct, based on what you had just told us.
8 A. The witness never mentioned any corpse or was aware of any kind of
10 Q. Thank you. Is it true that in your statement to the
11 Prosecution - or rather, I apologise - in your statement to the Public
12 Security Centre in Sarajevo, you stated that you were admitted to KP Dom
13 by Pljevaljcic, Vlatko; and Rasevic, Cedo; and that the military police
14 searched you?
15 A. I stated yesterday that the military arrested me, that Mitar
16 Rasevic was present, and Pljevaljcic, Vlatko. They were present at the
18 Q. This is very short, so I will read it to you:
19 "I was admitted to the KP Dom by Pljevaljcic, Vlatko; and Rasevic,
20 Cedo; and the search was conducted by the military police. Mitar Rasevic
21 sent me to Room 18."
22 Is it true what I have just read to you? Did you actually state
24 A. That's not correct.
25 Q. Which part is not correct?
1 A. Mitar Rasevic personally brought me into KP Dom. Vlatko
2 Pljevaljcic was at the gate.
3 Q. And who conducted the search? Who searched you?
4 A. Nobody searched me, because all of my former colleagues were
6 Q. So it is not true that you said this in your statement to the
7 Public Security Centre in Sarajevo. Did you sign this statement?
8 A. I gave an oral statement and I have no idea what they wrote down.
9 Q. Thank you. Please be so kind and tell us: Do you know who is a
10 person called Boro Ivanovic?
11 A. Boro Ivanovic was an educator and teacher in a commune Godjeno,
12 which is located 12 kilometres away from Foca. I heard from the Muslims,
13 who were involved in forced labour, that he was the security commander,
14 but I never saw him.
15 Q. You said that he was the security commander for the town of Foca;
16 right? You mentioned this individual in your statement given to the
17 Public Security Centre in Sarajevo and also in your statement given to the
18 Prosecution. In your statement given to the Prosecution, at page 3, in
19 your first statement of June 25th and 26th, you said, verbatim:
20 "Boro Ivanovic, who was the commander of the security police in
21 the prison complex, I saw once, but he did not enter the detention
23 So here you stated that he was the commander of the security
24 police in the prison quarters.
25 A. Well, how could I have stated that when this is not -- when this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was not his position? I know who was in charge of the security police in
2 the prison complex.
3 Q. So what I just read out to you is not correct; you in fact did not
4 state this?
5 A. No. What I am stating now is correct, and this is that Boro
6 Ivanovic was the security commander for the town of Foca.
7 Q. Was he in the military structure?
8 A. Yes, he was in the military structure.
9 Q. Please tell us: Do you know how many Muslim detainees remained in
10 August of 1993?
11 A. I wouldn't know that figure.
12 Q. Could you give us an approximation?
13 A. I don't know. I simply know how many were there in 1994.
14 Q. Well, can you tell us how many were there in 1994?
15 A. Sixty-eight. Seventy-eight people, approximately, came for an
16 exchange at Kula.
17 Q. Were they all -- were all of those exchanged from the KP Dom in
19 A. No Muslims remained there.
20 Q. Out of those 78, were some people from other camps or other
21 prisons or perhaps from Kula?
22 A. In Kula we found about 20 people from the KP Dom in Foca.
23 Q. So 50 or 58 people could have been from the KP Dom in Foca?
24 A. I have a figure of 68.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. I have just two more questions and then I
1 would ask you to take a look at a photograph. Yesterday you discussed a
2 vehicle, Zastava make, known as Kedi, and you said that this vehicle was
3 used to transport fish. Is that correct?
4 A. In peacetime.
5 Q. Do you know that during the time when you were detained in KP
6 Foca, do you know whether the economic units of the KP Dom were
8 A. A farm, economic unit Drina, and a mine were functioning.
9 Q. Do you know that the fishery was transferred from Jeleca to
10 Bukovice at the time when you were detained at the KP Dom?
11 A. I know that the fish hatchery completely left the location of
13 Q. Do you know that some of that fish that was transferred to
14 Bukovice was also transported into stores?
15 A. Well, I didn't wander about the city, so I could not have seen
17 Q. Please tell me: Do you know whether fish, like people, have blood
18 in their bodies?
19 A. No.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness did not say no. He said
21 yes, they do have blood; fish have blood.
22 Q. Do you know - and this is something that we verified in our
23 document - on June 23rd, 1993, when the International Red Cross came in,
24 do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac was still the warden of the KP Dom
25 at that time?
1 A. As far as I remember, Sekulovic came in August or September.
2 Q. Then you will certainly agree with me that in June, Milorad
3 Krnojelac was still the warden?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. And please tell me also whether in May or some other
6 month of 1992 a delegation from the International Red Cross also visited
7 the KP Dom. Are you aware of that?
8 A. I didn't see them.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would ask the usher to
10 put this photograph, 7442, in front of the witness - this is the top
11 photograph - and to enlarge this segment here so that we can see the
12 building above the administration building. I would ask you to please
13 zoom in on this photograph.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Which part do you want -- to the left or to the
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to the right of the
18 JUDGE HUNT: This, of course is a photograph that was taken from a
19 higher position than the street. I don't know if you realise that.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I realise that, Your Honours,
21 but I want to ask this witness to answer something else.
22 Q. Do you think - and I think that you will be able to do that
23 now - can you please count how many windows are there from the tree until
24 the end of the building, and I have in mind the prison complex.
25 A. Eight.
1 Q. Eight. Thank you. Can you please tell me, if you can see this
2 from the photograph: Between the administrative building and cinema -- or
3 rather, where is the border between the administrative building and
4 cinema? Near which window?
5 A. Four.
6 Q. Please count from the right side and look at where is the division
7 between the cinema and the administrative building. From the right end of
8 the building, how many windows are until that line separating those two
10 A. Five.
11 Q. Five. Thank you.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I
13 would like the witness to be shown photograph number 7529, the bottom
14 photograph, and once again I would like the same -- I would like the
15 technician to zoom in on the same detail.
16 Your Honours, this is a photograph that was taken from the level
17 of the road, on the other side of the river with respect to the KP Dom.
18 Q. Can you please tell us how many windows do you see now from the
19 tree to the right?
20 A. Three and a half.
21 Q. Looking from the cinema, is the cinema obstructing the remaining
22 number of windows?
23 A. Yes. Only half of the window can be seen.
24 Q. Can you see all of the eight windows that you were able to see
1 A. No. Only half of the windows can be seen.
2 Q. So you mean half of eight, which means four windows?
3 A. Three and a half.
4 Q. So three and a half. All right. Thank you.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] We don't need this photograph
6 anymore. Thank you. I would simply like to verify --
7 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, Mr. Bakrac. It's not clear as to
8 whether the photographs were taken on the same angle, so that you would
9 have to be able to produce some evidence that they are before you started
10 to say there were five windows that were hidden. From my
11 recollection -- I was only watching them on the screen, but they were
12 taken from slightly different angles as well, not only from different
13 elevations, but from different angles, which may affect your next
14 submission at some stage that there were five windows hidden behind the
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I cannot establish now
17 what was the difference in an angle. I simply wanted us to establish
18 this, and I did promise you that we will make photographs from the Room
19 23. But what I needed now was to establish the facts that we have based
20 on the evidence presented by the Prosecution. It is up to you to evaluate
21 whether we succeeded to prove what we are trying to suggest here, but
22 perhaps this angle could have been a bit different, at least could have
23 shown a picture different by about half of a window, but I simply wanted
24 to once again establish what is visible based on the photographs presented
25 by the Prosecution.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm not trying to challenge what you're
2 doing at all; I'm trying to assist you by saying that if you want to ask
3 us to do a mathematical exercise to say how many windows have been hidden
4 by the cinema there, it may not be quite as easy as it appears at the
5 moment, so that you will be able to apply your mind to what does have to
6 be shown so that we can then work out which are the three windows or three
7 and a half windows that are shown in that last photograph. I am not
8 concerned one way or the other about this issue; I'm only trying to point
9 out to you that I think you should apply your mind to how you go about
10 proving it if you want us to make some assumptions or some conclusions
11 about the number of windows or which rooms those windows are that you can
12 see in that last photograph. And I'm drawing it to your attention now so
13 that it will be in your mind, I hope, later on.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will keep
15 this in mind, but I needed the witness to state -- to reassert this, and
16 this will be my next question.
17 Q. Did I understand you properly that Room 23 had two windows in the
18 dormitory section and two windows in the living-room section?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that those were four windows from the right side, right end of
21 the building number 2, the last four windows of the right end of the
22 building 2? Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, this could
25 perhaps be a good time to have a break. I have only a few questions
1 remaining to put to the witness and they pertain to the rooms, and then I
2 would end my cross-examination.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Is there any way of taking the witness
4 who is coming next, who has voice distortion, through the exercise of
5 having the microphone adjusted to him so we don't have to adjourn?
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that can be done during the adjournment. We'll
8 resume, then, at 11.30.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the detention unit has provided a
12 response to the complaints, and I'll give you a copy of the e-mail, and
13 there would be one for the Prosecution as well. I think you'll find that
14 it will probably be sorted out reasonably well.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.
16 This was really an unexpected efficiency, and I hope the accused will be
17 happy. This was really a very prompt solution to his problem. Thank you
18 very much indeed.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Would you like to continue cross-examination?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I promised that I
21 would be brief, and I have one more question and one list with some names.
22 Q. Witness, you told us yesterday that from Room 23 you could see
23 some of the Drina. Are you saying that you could see the segment of the
24 Drina opposite your room, that is, the far away part of the bridge
25 opposite the KP Dom?
1 A. From Room 23 one can see half of the bridge, that is, the farther
2 side of the bridge, and perhaps a little less of one half of the river,
3 again, from the farther side of the river.
4 Q. But my question was, could you from Room 23 see part of the River
5 Drina below the bridge and around the bridge?
6 A. Well, not below the bridge, not under the bridge, no.
7 Q. Thank you. I shall now read out some names to you slowly and will
8 invite you to tell me if you can remember where were those persons when
9 you mentioned them and told us that they were taken away. Which room was
10 Salem Bico in?
11 A. In building 1.
12 Q. Do you know the room?
13 A. Either 14 or 15, I'm not sure.
14 Q. Thank you. Abdurahman Cankusic?
15 A. Fifteen.
16 Q. Juso Dzamalija?
17 A. Juso Dzamalija, 18.
18 Q. Kemal Dzelilovic?
19 A. Fifteen.
20 Q. Ramo Dzendusic?
21 A. Sixteen, building 2.
22 Q. Halim Konjo?
23 A. I think he was in either 15 or 13.
24 Q. Thank you. Fuad Mandzo?
25 A. I don't know which room he was in.
1 Q. Krunoslav Marinovic?
2 A. I don't know. He was in building 1.
3 Q. Hamid Ramovic?
4 A. Building 2, and I believe it was 18.
5 Q. Husein Rikalo?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Mithat Rikalo?
8 A. I think that all three of them were in building 1.
9 Q. But do you know the room, and were all three of them in one and
10 the same room?
11 A. They were all in building 1, but whether they were all in one and
12 the same room, I don't know.
13 Q. Kemal Tulek?
14 A. Kemal Tulek was in the isolation cell.
15 Q. But before the isolation cell, do you know where he was?
16 A. He was brought from Bileca and directly put into the isolation
18 Q. And from the isolation cell he was taken out of the KP Dom, you
20 A. Yes, correct.
21 Q. Enes Uzunovic?
22 A. For a while he was in building 1, that is 11, and then he was
23 transferred to 18 in building 2, and then he was taken through gate 1.
24 Q. From Room 18, you mean?
25 A. I think so.
1 Q. Munib Veiz?
2 A. Twenty-three. No, no, no, excuse me, excuse me. Fifteen, it was
3 building 1.
4 Q. Zulfo Veiz?
5 A. Same thing, Room 15, building 1.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
8 questions. Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination?
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour, no questions.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Your evidence is now finished.
12 Thank you for giving evidence to the Tribunal. You are free to leave.
13 You should, however, wait a moment while the blinds are being lowered so
14 that you will not be seen by members of the public.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, meanwhile the witness -- the
18 technical things are replaced, I have one small technical matter, and that
19 is, when we entered into evidence the document P258, it was overseen that
20 there was also a translation to it, and that is the translation 258A, and
21 we did not -- we forgot to enter this into evidence. This is simply the
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then that document will become Exhibit P258A.
24 Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: The document with the witness' name and some other
2 pseudonyms to which he may be referring will be Exhibit P416, and it is
3 under seal.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, will you please make the solemn declaration in
6 the document which is now being shown to you.
7 WITNESS: FWS-104
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
12 Yes, Mr. Smith.
13 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Examined by Mr. Smith:
15 Q. Good morning, Witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. The Trial Chamber has granted you protection measures in this case
18 in relation to your name, your voice, and your image. If you look in
19 front of you --
20 MR. SMITH: If I ask that Exhibit P416 be placed in front of the
22 Q. If you look at that piece of paper, does that contain your name
23 and date of birth at the top of the page?
24 A. It does.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. The witness, could you please just
1 move forward to the table, approach the microphone as closely as
2 possible. Thanks.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Sure.
4 MR. SMITH:
5 Q. There are two other names that appear on that paper with two
6 numbers alongside of them. If you would like to use those names in the
7 testimony, can you please not use the name but just the numbers that are
8 next to them. Don't refer to the people's names. Do you understand?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Witness, in April 1992 where did you live?
11 A. Foca.
12 Q. Did you live in the town of Foca?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you live in an apartment or a house?
15 A. A house.
16 Q. And how long had you lived in Foca in 1992?
17 A. Fifty years. Fifty years.
18 Q. How far did you live from the centre, the centre of the town?
19 A. Near the centre.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Mr. Smith. Could you switch off the
21 microphone while the witness is answering the question.
22 MR. SMITH: Sorry, Your Honour.
23 Q. And were you married at the time?
24 A. I was.
25 Q. Did you have children?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Were they living away from home at the time or with you?
3 A. They did not live with me.
4 Q. Were you working at the time in 1992?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And how would you define yourself ethnically?
7 A. Bosniak, Muslim.
8 Q. In 1992 were you a member of a political party?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you serving in any military unit?
11 A. No.
12 Q. When the war started in 1992, where were you?
13 A. In Foca.
14 Q. Were you in your house?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Briefly, can you tell the Court what you saw when the war started
17 on that first day.
18 A. Yes. Gunfire started. From all sides fire was opened on Foca.
19 That is what I saw and heard.
20 Q. How long did you stay in your house?
21 A. I stayed in the house five days, five days.
22 Q. On the fifth day did you decide to leave your house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And why did you decide to leave?
25 A. Well, because I was afraid they might kill me.
1 Q. Who do you mean by "they"?
2 A. The Chetniks.
3 Q. And why did you think the Chetniks may kill you?
4 A. Well, because they were killing all the Muslims, so I guess they
5 would have -- they were very likely to kill me too.
6 Q. And when you say Chetniks, who are you referring to?
7 A. I'm referring to the Serb troops who had come from Serbia and
8 Montenegro. They were all Chetniks.
9 Q. You stated that they were killing Muslims. How did you know that?
10 A. They were killing both Muslims and Croats. I saw.
11 Q. Did you see any killing of Muslims or Croats whilst you were in
12 your house for that five days, or is it what you heard through other
14 A. I heard it from other people.
15 Q. Where did you decide to go on that fifth day?
16 A. I decided to head for Gorazde, to leave Foca.
17 Q. And did you leave in your car?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who was with you? Don't state their names, just their
21 A. My son and my wife. My son and wife were with me.
22 Q. Did you get to Gorazde, or did you stop somewhere along the way?
23 A. I stopped at Ustikolina.
24 Q. And why did you stop there?
25 A. Because there were some troops there. There was the Yugoslav army
1 there and soldiers, and I thought that they were there and that they would
2 protect us, that we were safe there, that we would be sheltered there.
3 Q. Is the commander of those troops, does his name appear on that
4 page in front of you? But don't state the name if it does.
5 A. It does.
6 Q. What number appears alongside his name?
7 A. 120.
8 Q. You said there were some troops at this location. Was there also
9 a military warehouse?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was the purpose of this military warehouse?
12 A. Well, that military warehouse served those troops, that is, they
13 had their weapons, ammunition, and what do I know for those troops.
14 Mostly gear for those troops.
15 Q. And how far was the military warehouse from the centre of Foca?
16 A. Well, some -- between 5 and 8 kilometres.
17 Q. Were there any other civilians at the military warehouse when you
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. About how many were there?
21 A. Well, about -- there were women and children and adult men, and
22 there were about 150 altogether.
23 Q. And what were they doing there?
24 A. Well, they were also in that camp, in that warehouse, in order to
25 get away from the Chetniks who were raiding -- who were attacking Foca.
1 Q. Did you know what ethnicity these people were, these civilians?
2 Was it mixed or was it of one ethnic background?
3 A. Of one ethnic background, they were all Muslims.
4 Q. And the soldiers there, what ethnic backgrounds were they from?
5 A. They were of all ethnic backgrounds, Serbs and Muslims and others.
6 Q. Did you decide to stay at this warehouse?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And why did you decide to stay there?
9 A. Well, I thought -- because I thought I was safe there. I thought
10 those troops would help with -- would prevent us getting killed. I simply
11 thought we were safe there, that we did not need to flee further, that it
12 would save us from killing.
13 Q. How long did you stay at the warehouse before you were taken away?
14 A. About 13 days.
15 Q. Did the other 150 or so, did they stay there for that period of
16 time as well?
17 A. Those others, not all had arrived the same day. I do not know who
18 arrived when, but be that as it may, we stayed together until that day
19 when they captured us.
20 Q. And what date did you leave the warehouse?
21 A. The 26th of April.
22 Q. And was the warehouse taken over by some military troops on that
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. And which troops were these, do you know?
1 A. Well, what I could see, there were different types of troops, but
2 there were different soldiers and there were those in civilian uniforms,
3 but there were Seseljevic's men and Arkan's men, but Chetniks altogether.
4 They had all come together and taken that warehouse where they then
5 captured us. The White Eagles. I don't know, all sorts of formations.
6 Q. And what happened when you were captured?
7 A. That day we were in a hangar in that warehouse all together, women
8 and children, because they had begun shelling that camp, and we fled to
9 the hangar so as not to be hit, not to be killed. And we gathered all in
10 a hangar, and all of a sudden they came through the door and shouted,
11 "Hands up," and used filthy language, used all sorts of dirty words. I
12 can't really repeat them here, but it all meant "your hands up." And they
13 drove us out in front of the hangar, in front of that warehouse, and then
14 separated adult men from women and children, and they were returned into
15 the hangar again.
16 Q. Were the women and children returned into the hangar?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. About how many men were separated?
19 A. About 35 to 40 men were there, I mean adult men, elderly most of
20 them. Mostly elderly.
21 Q. And do you know where these men were from?
22 A. These men were from the area of Ustikolina and the surrounding
24 Q. Do you know whether they were soldiers or civilians?
25 A. Civilians, all of them were civilians, I know that.
1 Q. Were the men searched?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was any property taken away from the men during the search?
4 A. Yes, they searched all of us. They put knives under our chins and
5 then went through our pockets, took money away, everything that was
6 valuable. Whatever valuable items we had, they took it all away.
7 Q. Was a smaller group then selected from this group of 35 men?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How many were selected?
10 A. Five people were.
11 Q. And were you in that group?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know why these five were selected?
14 A. Well, I know. They told us that they found in somebody's pocket a
15 card with the inscription of SDA. It was a membership card of the SDA,
16 but there was no name and last name written in it, so they didn't know
17 whose membership card it was and in whose pocket they found it. For all
18 we know, they could have brought it with them. They showed it to us and
19 asked, "Whose membership card is this?" We didn't know and we didn't say
20 anything, because we truly didn't know whose card it was. And then they
21 said, "Well, if you won't tell us who this belongs to, we will separate
22 five of you." And this is what they did. They singled out five men.
23 Q. Did you stay in that group, that group of five?
24 A. I went back to this other group where 30 people were in at the
25 time when this Chetnik commander was calling out the rest of the names.
1 In the meantime, I went back to the other group and I remained in that
2 group. They took away those four men and they also brought in five people
3 from another room and they took them all to be shot.
4 Q. Did you see them being shot or did you hear of this?
5 A. We saw it and we heard it.
6 Q. About how far away were you when the men were shot?
7 A. About 20 to 30 metres.
8 Q. How many people shot the men?
9 A. Nine people were taken away to be shot. One survived. He was
10 wounded, but he survived. And one escaped from this shooting and
11 survived. So that means that seven people in all were shot.
12 Q. How many soldiers shot these men?
13 A. Three.
14 Q. Were the men in a group when they were shot or were they spread
16 A. They were lined up and they shot in their backs. They were shot
17 in their backs. They were standing in a group.
18 Q. And how far were the soldiers from these men when they were shot?
19 A. Well, approximately three to five metres. I don't know exactly.
20 Q. After this happened, were you taken to the KP Dom that day?
21 A. Yes. They called up Foca and a bus came to pick us up, and all of
22 us were loaded on the bus - women, children, men - and all of us were
23 taken to Foca. We were first taken to Velecevo, where there was some kind
24 of a Chetnik command, and then after that they took us back to KP Dom and
25 we were there for about one hour while they were talking. I don't know
1 what about they were talking. We were on the bus the whole time. We
2 didn't leave the bus. And after that we were turned back to KP Dom, and
3 we, the men, we entered through one gate, the adult men; and women and
4 children, they entered the KP Dom through another gate.
5 Q. About how many women and children were taken to the KP Dom?
6 A. Well, as I said, approximately a hundred, around a hundred. There
7 was a total of 150 of us all together, and out of that number
8 approximately there were a hundred women.
9 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom but before you were placed inside
10 the compound, how were you treated?
11 A. Well, as we were leaving the bus, they would first hit us in the
12 back or in our bottoms or in the stomach. They would hit us with the
13 rifle butt. And then they would take us through the gate of the KP Dom
14 one by one, and all of us were beaten in that process.
15 Q. Were you beaten outside of the KP Dom or within --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. SMITH: Sorry.
18 Q. Were you beaten outside of the KP Dom yourself or were you beaten
20 A. Outside of the KP Dom, as we were entering the KP Dom, before we
21 entered the KP Dom.
22 Q. I'm specifically asking you: How many times were you beaten? How
23 many times were you hit?
24 A. I was hit once, and everybody was hit either once or twice, and
25 depending on how they got their hands on you, those escorts who brought us
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 there, if I can call them escorts, the troops that brought us in from
3 Q. You mentioned that the men went through one entrance and the women
4 and children went through another.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. As you face the entrance of the KP Dom, did the men go to the
7 left, to the left entrance, and the women to the right, women and children
8 to the right, or can you explain?
9 A. Yes, I will explain. So when we came back from Velecevo, which is
10 where they took us first, the first gate, the main gate, is where the
11 trucks and people would go through, so that's the first gate. And the
12 second gate was for pedestrians only. So this second gate where -- for
13 pedestrians only, which is the second gate with respect to the
14 administrative building, this is where the men came in. And the women
15 were sent back on the same bus to the upper gate, and this is where women
16 entered the KP Dom.
17 Q. When you entered the building of the KP Dom, were you handed over
18 to anyone?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And who was that?
21 A. Well, I personally recognised -- I saw Obrenovic, Dragan
22 Obrenovic. He admitted all of us through that gate. He took our
23 documents away, if we had ID cards - or whatever we had on us, he took it
24 away - and he took us over from these guards that brought us there.
25 Q. Did you know him from before the war?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was Obrenovic with any other people that appeared to come from the
3 KP Dom?
4 A. I saw only him. He admitted me and the rest of us. And those
5 who -- the guards who brought us there helped him. They were sort of
6 pushing us through the gate, and he would simply admit us in and take away
7 our ID cards or whatever documents we had. So I only saw him at that
8 gate, at that entrance gate.
9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he appears at number 46 on P3 of the
10 guard list.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
12 MR. SMITH:
13 Q. When you were admitted to the KP Dom, where were you taken?
14 A. When we entered the KP Dom, we were taken to pavilion number 1,
15 Room 11.
16 Q. And who took you to that room?
17 A. Another guard that was not known to me, he took us there, and he
18 took us to that Room.
19 Q. Now, was he one of the soldiers that brought you there, or did he
20 appear to come from the KP Dom, work there?
21 A. Yes, from the KP Dom. He had -- he wore a blue uniform.
22 Q. And when you say that you were admitted and I think searched or
23 papers taken from you, was your name taken, your name and details taken?
24 A. Yes -- no.
25 Q. Do you know whether women and children were taken? You said they
1 went through the main gate where their vehicles entered and exited. Do
2 you know which building they went to?
3 A. They were taken to pavilion number 2 up on a floor, I don't know
4 which floor, and this is where they spent the night, and they were
5 released the following day. I saw it through the window.
6 Q. And did this include your wife?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were there any other detainees in Room 11 when you first arrived?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Apart from the group that you arrived with, how many people were
11 in that room when you arrived?
12 A. When we arrived in that room, there were a lot of people there.
13 The rooms were full. We barely managed to find a spot for ourselves
14 behind the door of one of the rooms. We barely found a spot where we
15 could lay down and spend the night. We were like cattle in there, there
16 were so many of us.
17 Q. Did all of the men that were separated at Ustikolina, that group
18 of 30 or so, were they all placed into Room 11?
19 A. Yes, that night, yes.
20 Q. And with the others that were in the room when you arrived, can
21 you give an approximate figure of how many people were in Room 11?
22 A. Well, I think there was approximately 100 people there, perhaps a
23 bit more in that Room 11, because that room was next to the hallway and
24 there was in it one larger room and two smaller rooms. And that entire
25 complex consisting of four rooms, including the hallway, was called Room
1 11, and there were more than 100 people there.
2 Q. And how many days did you stay in Room 11?
3 A. Two days.
4 Q. And for those two days, did you sleep in a bed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How many of the people that were in Room 11 were sleeping in beds
7 over that two-day period?
8 A. I couldn't say. I don't know.
9 Q. In Room 11, did you notice anyone with injuries?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who was that?
12 A. Munib Veiz, Nail Hodzic, Zulfo Veiz, and I don't know the names of
13 others. There were many of them injured, but I knew these three men from
14 before, and I saw that they had serious injuries, especially on their
15 faces. They were bruised, swollen.
16 Q. Of these three people, do you remember any particular injuries on
17 any one of them?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you describe Munib Veiz's injuries?
20 A. Well, yes, I can. There were injuries on his face, on his cheeks,
21 below his eyes, on his forehead. There were a lot of bruises. It was
22 visible. It was bloody. This is what I saw.
23 Q. And what about Zulfo Veiz, do you remember any particular injuries
24 on him?
25 A. On his face, I saw it on his face, because despite these injuries,
1 these bruises, these people also had injuries on other parts of their
2 bodies which I did not see. They were beaten on their backs and other
3 parts and, however, I did not see that. I only saw their facial injuries.
4 They didn't want to talk about it because they were afraid. They were
5 afraid of talking about it.
6 Q. And Nail Hodzic, do you remember any particular injuries on him?
7 A. I saw his facial injuries, and he also said that he had been
8 beaten on the shoulders and on his back. I didn't see those injuries
9 because he dared not take his coat off him, but he told us that he had
10 been beaten on his back as well.
11 Q. Did Nail tell you who beat him?
12 A. No, no.
13 Q. You said you spent two days in Room 11. Which room were you taken
14 to next?
15 A. I was taken to Room 16 after that.
16 Q. And when you arrived, about how many people were in that room?
17 A. Approximately 20 of us came together, and all of us were
18 transferred from that Room 11. And as we were transferred, we took
19 blankets and our belongings because in this other room there were beds.
20 So approximately 20 of us came in together at the same time and we took up
21 those beds, and new people were coming in daily.
22 Q. Were you the first people to arrive in that room, the group of 20,
23 or were people there already?
24 A. We were the first group.
25 Q. How long did you spend in that room?
1 A. I remained in that room for seven months.
2 Q. What date did you leave the KP Dom?
3 A. Late October, early November.
4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I just asked that Exhibit P6/2a be shown
5 to the witness. It's the plan of Room 16.
6 Q. Witness, do you see -- this is a plan of the prisoners' dormitory,
7 and on that plan you see a 16 with an arrow. Does that layout, does that
8 layout assist you in determining where you were sleeping within Room 16?
9 A. Here, here, we would enter it here. This is the hallway. Here.
10 Q. You indicated the smaller room within 16 at the front.
11 A. No, this room is larger. This room faces -- these larger rooms
12 face the road, and these here are smaller rooms, and these two are larger.
13 JUDGE HUNT: He's clearly pointing to the ones closest to the
14 administration building, and he did point at one stage to the left of
15 those larger rooms facing the administration building. Now, it might be a
16 good idea to ask him specifically if that is the one in which he slept. I
17 think it was, but it's always very difficult for us listening to a
18 translation to know what it is he was saying at the time that he was
19 pointing because we get the translation about half a sentence behind.
20 So may I suggest to you that you ask him specifically, was he
21 sleeping in the room to the left of the "2" in the front of that building
22 which faced the administration building.
23 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. I don't think I could put that question any better. Is that
25 correct, the description that the Judge just gave?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. In this room, did you sleep in a bed?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In this room, did a Hasan Dzano and an Emir [Realtime transcript
5 read in error "Amir"] Mandzo also sleep in that smaller room with you?
6 A. Yes. Yes, yes, in that room. In the same room as me, same room.
7 Q. Did you know Hasan Dzano before you came to KP Dom?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what did he do?
10 A. Well, he was a retired person. He also had his own store which
11 was located in his house.
12 Q. And Emir Mandzo, did you know him before you arrived at KP Dom?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what did he do?
15 A. He worked as a medical technician in a hospital.
16 Q. And were they beaten whilst you were at KP Dom?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And how did you know this?
19 A. Well, I saw it. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw them beaten.
20 They were beaten in the solitary confinement cell for about one hour at
21 approximately -- they were beaten between 12.00 and 1.00 p.m. They were
22 beaten there and then they were returned back to the room and both of them
23 did not move.
24 Q. Did you watch the beatings or did you only see their injuries?
25 A. I only saw their injuries afterwards.
1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the transcript says "Amir Mandzo." I'm
2 just going clarify it with the witness.
3 Q. Witness, you said you know an Emir Mandzo. Is that with an "E" or
4 is that with an "A"?
5 A. E. With an "E." Yes, that's correct, with an "E."
6 Q. Can you describe Emir Mandzo's injuries when you saw them?
7 A. Yes, I can. I saw him when I came back from lunch, because they
8 had been beaten before the lunch. When I came back from lunch he was
9 lying, without moving, in his bed. I approached him and I saw -- to see
10 who had beaten him, where they had beaten him. And in addition to his
11 injuries on his back, I also saw injuries on his legs; and from his big
12 toe, his entire foot was bloody and cracked. He couldn't stand up. I saw
13 it with my own eyes.
14 Q. What injuries did you see on his back?
15 A. On his back I could see bruises, blue ones, as would be those made
16 by a baton.
17 Q. Was only one foot injured or both feet?
18 A. Both. Both.
19 Q. And what about Hasan Dzano's injuries? Did you see them?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. And what did you see?
22 A. I saw his back, which was all blue. One could see every baton
23 blow. One could really count how many times he was hit on the back with a
24 baton. There were those stripes with blue and black. Then his face was
25 all bruised and his chin was cut - I don't know how it happened - and he
1 was bleeding from his chin. That is what I could see.
2 MR. SMITH: For the record, the witness pointed to his chin, the
3 centre of the chin.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did Hasan get any treatment for his injuries?
6 A. No, not by -- not by them, but he did have some medical aid,
7 because we had a physician with us in the room, and he approached him and
8 then used just an ordinary needle like those that you sew your clothes
9 with. He took that and some thread and sutured and sewed this cut on his
10 chin so as to stop the bleeding.
11 Q. Did you notice whether these injuries had any longer-term effect
12 on Hasan?
13 A. Well, Hasan did not stay much longer in that room, not many days.
14 He left the room -- well, he was still suffering from those injuries when
15 he left.
16 Q. And Emir Mandzo, how did the injuries affect him on a day-to-day
18 A. He could not stand on his feet; he simply couldn't. And our cooks
19 from the kitchen brought some food to him in the room and he could eat a
20 little. He simply could not stand on his feet for some ten days or so.
21 Q. Did either of them tell you who beat them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who told you?
24 A. Hasan told me.
25 Q. And who did he say beat them?
1 A. Hasan said that they were beaten by their neighbours, Zoran
2 Matovic -- and I don't know who else he mentioned, but I know he mentioned
3 Zoran Matovic, that he was one of those who beat him. But by and large,
4 he -- generally speaking, he said, "It was our neighbours who beat us,"
5 and he mentioned Zoran Matovic, whom he knew. He knew him personally; I
7 Q. Did he say where they were beaten? You said earlier in the
8 solitary confinement cells. Did he say which building?
9 A. Yes. The isolation cell was in the administrative building, right
10 across from our building. So he was right across the building, in the
11 isolation cells, and that is where both of them were beaten.
12 Q. And did he say whether they were beaten together or separately?
13 A. They were taken away together and they were brought back
14 together. Whether they beat them both at the same time, well, I think so,
15 yes, there. I don't know whether they were beaten together, but they were
16 taken away together, brought back together, and they were neighbours,
17 Hasan and Emir. And they both said that they were -- that they had been
18 beaten by their neighbours.
19 Q. And were Hasan and Emir, were they still at the KP Dom when you
21 A. No. They left before me and they were taken away before, before
22 me, a long time before me. I think -- after they were beaten and then
23 they spent another 10 or 15 days there in the room and then they were
24 taken away. I don't know where.
25 Q. Did you see them being taken away or did you simply hear that?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I saw it. Yes, I saw it. And Rasim Retko also went with him,
2 with them, and Hasan Dzano and Emir Mandzo. They were all in my room and
3 they all left together one day at 1.00 p.m.
4 Q. Where were they taken?
5 A. I don't know. How can we know where they took them? They come to
6 the door, call their names out, and take them away. How can we know where
7 they are taking them or what they are going to do to them?
8 Q. You specifically remember someone coming to the room and calling
9 their names out?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who was that?
12 A. It was -- what is it? Obrevovic was his name, Dragan; Dragan
13 Obrenovic. He is the one who called them out.
14 Q. Did he state why he was calling these people out? Did he give
15 them a reason?
16 A. No. He simply called their names out and said, "Pick up your
17 belongings and out." He gave no reason, no why, no where.
18 Q. And did they take their belongings with them?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You mentioned that Hasan, Emir, and a Rasim Retko were taken. Was
21 anyone else taken from your room on that day in your group?
22 A. Not from our room, but yes, from other rooms. Ten or fifteen, ten
23 or fifteen men were taken from that building, from our building, from the
24 pavilion. Those men were taken away, and they all came from the same area
25 as Hasan did, that is, Josanica.
1 Q. After these men were taken out, have you ever seen them again,
2 these three that you talked about?
3 A. No, never.
4 Q. Do you know of anyone that has seen them alive since that day?
5 A. We know that nobody ever saw them again.
6 Q. Do you know why these men were taken out?
7 A. I don't know.
8 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in relation to the injuries that the
9 witness had witnessed, that relates to incident B-18 for Hasan Dzano and
10 B-37 for Emir Mandzo.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
12 MR. SMITH:
13 Q. Witness, did you know a Zaim Cedic whilst you were in the KP Dom?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And which room did he sleep in?
16 A. He slept in Room 16, across the passage in one of those smaller
18 Q. And did he arrive in Room 16 at the same time as you or after you?
19 A. After me.
20 Q. And was he ever beaten whilst at the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes. He arrived in our room beaten. He was all black and blue in
22 his face, his cheeks. He had been beaten. Him I saw battered up. And he
23 also said that he ate salt, that somebody had forced him to swallow about
24 half a kilogram of salt and would not let him drink any water, but he told
25 us so. I did not see that. And he said that it was done to him while he
1 was in the isolation cell.
2 Q. You said that he was black and blue in his face. Did you notice
3 any injuries on any other part of his body?
4 A. I did not see anything else because he did not take off before
5 our -- he did not take off his clothes before us, but he told us that he
6 had been beaten all over his body.
7 Q. Do you know what month this was?
8 A. I wouldn't know exactly. June, July, I'm not sure. I don't
10 Q. And did he tell you who caused the injuries?
11 A. He did not tell me, no.
12 Q. Was he there when you left the KP Dom?
13 A. He was taken away before me.
14 Q. And when was the first time that you realised that he was taken
16 A. Well, we saw that he was missing. He had been called out, and --
17 no, wait. He was taken away by day when they usually took people away, at
18 1.00 in the afternoon. I don't know the date.
19 Q. And did you see him be taken away, be taken away, or did you hear
20 about that through others?
21 A. Well, we could see through the window. Every day when they took
22 them away, we could see men that they were taking away through the gate
23 through which they always took people away and through which we had
24 entered. And that is a gate in the administrative building, and you have
25 to go through it to go out, but once you're out, you can't know what they
1 do to them.
2 Q. I'm speaking about Zaim Cedic specifically. Did you specifically
3 see him being taken away, or do you just assume that's what happened?
4 A. We saw it.
5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the incident in relation to the injuries
6 of Zaim Cedic is referred to at B-11 in the schedules.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 MR. SMITH:
9 Q. Witness, did you know a Halim Dedovic whilst you were in the KP
11 A. Yes. Yes, I did, I did.
12 Q. And which room did he sleep in?
13 A. In my room. He slept in my room, too, 16, right next to the
14 door. Two or three beds away from the door.
15 Halim Dedovic was a barber, and he came to the prison, and after a
16 while he began to shave people and cut people's hair, both ours and the
17 guards'. I knew him well. And he also arrived with bad bruises or bad
18 injuries on his face. He was badly beaten, too, but he gradually
19 recovered and began to move around a little and to exercise his trade, and
20 so ...
21 Q. How long after you arrived in the room did Halim Dedovic arrive?
22 A. Halim Dedovic arrived two or three months later. Must have been
23 at least two months after me.
24 Q. And you said that he had bad bruises or bad injuries to his face.
25 Can you be more specific?
1 A. Well, I can, of course. Sure I can. On his cheeks, he had black
2 eyes, his cheeks were black and blue, his chin, his forehead. It was just
3 all black and blue. He could barely see because of those hematoma. He
4 could barely see, and so that he spent more time lying down and resting
5 than moving about.
6 Q. Did you find out from him who beat him?
7 A. No, no. He did not say, but he was beaten while still at home.
8 He was beaten while still at home, while he was still at home.
9 Q. Is that prior to coming to the KP Dom?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And who told you that?
12 A. He -- I mean, Halim.
13 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, despite that, the incident is referred
14 to -- are incidents I refer to at A-6 and B-13 in the schedules, despite
15 the answers from the witness.
16 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure what you mean, but at least it's down in
17 the transcript so we know how to relate to it later. Thank you.
18 MR. SMITH:
19 Q. In relation to Zaim Cedic, when he was taken away, had you ever
20 seen him again after that date?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And do you know of anyone that has seen Zaim Cedic alive since he
23 was taken away from the KP Dom?
24 A. I know that nobody's ever saw him again.
25 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of people being beaten whilst you were
1 at the KP Dom?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what did you hear?
4 A. Well, I heard when they beat Nurko Nisic, I heard when they beat
5 Husko Rikalo. I recognised it when they would call them out, when the one
6 who beats them downstairs in the isolation cell, I don't know who that is,
7 I don't know, but I could hear because my window -- or rather, my bed was
8 next to the window, so I could hear it all. But naturally, I could not
9 see anything.
10 And I could hear them say, "Stand up, Nurko, stand up." And he
11 was imploring them, imploring them not to beat him. But one could hear
12 every blow, one could hear every blow as when somebody strikes an object.
13 And same with Husko. When they beat him, I heard it well. I'll never
14 forget it because he was shouting, I don't know who it was that beat him,
15 but he shouted, "Where is your Pap?" That's a rifle or something, I
16 didn't know what kind of rifle or what it is, but he had, "Where is your
17 Pap? Where is your Pap?" That is what I heard. And I heard other
18 screams, many of them which I couldn't recognise who were those men.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Smith.
20 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
21 Q. If I could ask you some questions about the time that you heard
22 Nurko Nisic being beaten. Do you remember what month this was? What
23 month was it?
24 A. May, I think.
25 Q. And where did you hear the beating coming from or the voice coming
1 from saying "Nurko, Nurko"?
2 A. The voice came from the isolation cell from the administrative
3 building. That is where there were three isolation cells, and their voice
4 came -- reached us in our room there from the isolation room because it's
5 very close. There's only a lane between, in between, 4, 5 metres, not
6 more than that.
7 Q. And what time of day did you hear this specific beating of Nurko
9 A. At night, that is, around 9.00 in the evening. Between 9.00 and
10 11.00, something like that. That is when they usually came and when they
11 usually beat.
12 Q. How long did you hear this, these noises last for?
13 A. Well, it would last for an hour or so. I don't know exactly. For
14 about one hour, about one hour. Those screams, those cries, it would last
15 for about an hour.
16 Q. After that night, did you see, did you see Nurko Nisic?
17 A. After that night, no, I did not see him then.
18 Q. Do you know of anyone who's seen Nurko Nisic alive since you heard
19 him that night?
20 A. I know that nobody ever saw him again.
21 Q. When did you hear Husko Rikalo being beaten?
22 A. I heard Husko -- the beating of Husko Rikalo. It was also -- it
23 was May again, perhaps a couple of evenings before, a couple of evenings
24 later. But it was May, I'm sure it was May, and it was again in the
25 evening, around 10.00 or 11.00. That is what I heard. I know that was
1 about that time.
2 Q. And what particular noises did you hear when Husko Rikalo was
4 A. Well, I heard when, as I've told you, when somebody speak to him
5 and say - I don't know who - "Where is your Pap? Where is your Pap? Fuck
6 you, where is your Pap?" And he was imploring and crying with pain saying
7 "ow, ow" in such intonation. I could hear very well how it reached us
8 from the isolation cell.
9 Q. Did you see Husko Rikalo after that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know of anyone that has seen him alive since that night?
12 A. I don't. Nobody knows.
13 Q. Is Husko a nickname or is it a proper name, proper first name?
14 A. His full name is Huso, Husein, whatever, and it was short for
15 Husein, "Husko." But his full name is Huso, Husein, Huso, whatever. And
16 Husko was a pet name, endearment, because if you have somebody called
17 Aleksander, we shall call him Atko and, well, along those lines.
18 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
19 Nurko Nisic appears on Schedule C-19, and Husein Rikalo appears on
20 C-21 and also on B-46.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
22 MR. SMITH:
23 Q. You mentioned that you heard the sounds of people being beaten in
24 addition to Nurko Nisic and Husko Rikalo. About how many other nights did
25 you hear -- or how many other times did you hear the sounds of people
1 being beaten at the KP Dom?
2 A. Many times. Ten, twenty times I must have heard it. And I could
3 not know who and what, because they did not mention those men by name, but
4 I heard it many times, many.
5 Q. Were the sounds the same, the sounds of the beatings the same, or
6 did they change on each particular time?
7 A. Well, it was different men every time, so sounds were different
9 Q. And what type of sounds did you hear?
10 A. Why, I heard -- say somebody has a stronger voice, a fuller voice;
11 somebody cries out; somebody says, "oy," or different sounds.
12 Q. And how often would these beatings generally continue for; for
13 what length of time, each particular one?
14 A. About one hour. About one hour.
15 Q. Do you know who was doing the beatings? Did you hear from other
17 A. I don't know, but we heard that it was mostly Milenko Burilo,
18 Zoran Vukovic, Zelenovic. These names were mentioned that it was those
19 men. I did not see them.
20 Q. Do you know the first name of Zelenovic?
21 A. Dragan Zelenovic.
22 Q. Did these beatings, the beatings that you heard, did they occur
23 over a certain period or was it spread out over the whole time that you
24 were at the KP Dom?
25 A. It happened between, say, usually every third evening or every
1 second evening; not every evening.
2 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
3 It's 1.00, I think, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn and resume at 2.30.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.
3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, before we broke for lunch I asked you how often you heard
5 these beatings, and you answered about every third evening or every second
6 evening, not every evening. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You were in the KP Dom for the eight months, and you said this
9 occurred over about ten or 20 occasions. What period did you hear these
10 beatings, what period within the eight months?
11 A. In the evenings, between 9.00 and 11.00 p.m.
12 Q. And over what months?
13 A. Mostly in May, June, July, those three months. Most of the
14 beatings took place then.
15 Q. When you heard these beatings or these sounds of beatings, how did
16 that make you feel?
17 A. I was afraid. I was afraid that they would come and take me out
18 and take me to the isolation cell to beat me. I lived in fear.
19 Q. Did you sleep normally whilst you were at the KP Dom?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How many hours' sleep would you get on most nights?
22 A. On many nights I didn't sleep at all, and I would mostly sleep an
23 hour or two every night.
24 Q. And why did you sleep for only such few hours?
25 A. Well, I was afraid. I feared they would come and take me out, so
1 I lived in fear and I couldn't fall asleep.
2 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know a Ramo Dzendusic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In which room was he detained?
5 A. He was in my room, 116.
6 Q. You said "Room 116." Did you mean 116?
7 A. Oh, I apologise, I apologise. It was Room 16.
8 Q. And what happened to him?
9 A. I'm sorry?
10 Q. What happened to Ramo Dzendusic, if anything, whilst you were at
11 KP Dom?
12 A. Well, they came in the evening to fetch him around 11.00. They
13 called out his name at the door. So they called out his name "Ramo
14 Dzendusic," and they told him, "Get ready, you're coming with us." So he
15 got ready and he left with them, and we never saw him after that.
16 Q. Who called out his name?
17 A. One of the guards, one of our guards called out his name. I'm not
18 sure any more.
19 Q. Did he take his belongings with him?
20 A. Well, he took only few of his belongings because he already had
21 taken his clothes off, so he was in his underwear getting ready to go to
22 bed. And when they called out his name, he simply put his trousers on and
23 his coat, and he didn't really take any of his belongings, just took his
24 coat and trousers and left with them.
25 Q. Do you know the reason why he was called out?
1 A. I don't, no.
2 Q. Since that night, have you seen him alive?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you know of anyone else that's seen him alive since that night?
5 A. I know that nobody ever saw him alive ever again.
6 Q. Did you hear anything after he was called out, after he left the
8 A. No, I didn't hear anything.
9 Q. And when was he called out of the room, do you remember which
11 A. I think it was June.
12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this individual is referred to in
13 Schedule C-8 and also in Schedule B-20.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
15 MR. SMITH:
16 Q. Witness, whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know of a group
17 that were asked -- a group of detainees that were asked to pick plums?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How did you know of this group?
20 A. Well, I knew of -- I found out about this group. At about 1.00
21 p.m. they came to the door. And I think it was Sterenovic, a guard, who
22 came to the door, and he called out a group of about 18 people from our
23 pavilion and from the other pavilion. He called them out to go pick
24 plums. Only a few people volunteered. They needed more people, so he
25 came out later on and asked who else would volunteer to go and pick
1 plums. So more people volunteered after that, because people were hungry
2 and they wanted to go outside. So a lot of people volunteered. I think
3 about 35 to 40 people all together went to pick plums.
4 Q. Did any detainees from your room, Room 16, volunteer?
5 A. Yes. Yes, they did. One man, Kasim Musanovic, he volunteered to
6 go. He told me that his son would go with him as well. I didn't see his
7 son leave, but I did see Kasim leave.
8 Q. And did you know Kasim from before the war?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what did he do?
11 A. He worked in the forest, behind Jeleca.
12 Q. Do you know of anyone else who was called out from your room, the
13 names of anyone else?
14 A. They called out from our room Resad Hadzimesic; and Hadzimesic,
15 Mirsad, his brother; and also Dzano.
16 Q. Do you know Dzano's first name?
17 A. Well, I did know it, but I forgot it. I need time to remember it
19 Q. Is it Ramiz Dzano?
20 A. Ramiz. Yes, yes, yes. Ramiz Dzano. That's correct.
21 Q. Are there any other people that you remember were taken out from
22 your room?
23 A. Yes. There was a boy called Hajro, Edib Muminovic. I remember
24 those. There was Halim Konjo. I remember him as well.
25 Q. Which room was Halim Konjo in?
1 A. Halim was in a room right next to me. We would normally see each
2 other daily in a hallway. This was Room 16 and it had different subunits,
4 Q. You said that Sterenovic called these people out?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where was he when he called these people out? Did you see him?
7 A. Yes. He was in the hallway, and when he called out these people
8 from my name [as interpreted], Hadzimesic and Dzano, he was standing at
9 the door, and then later on he was standing in the hallway and calling out
10 people from those other four subunits.
11 Q. And did he work at the KP Dom?
12 A. Yes. He was a guard.
13 Q. And how old was he?
14 A. Well, around 35, 40 years. I'm not sure.
15 Q. And was he a tall or a short man?
16 A. Well, he was fairly tall.
17 Q. And what was he wearing?
18 A. He wore a blue guard's uniform, policeman's uniform.
19 Q. Do you remember his first name?
20 A. No. No, I don't remember.
21 Q. These six people that you mentioned were taken out to pick plums,
22 did they volunteer or were they called out? I think you said they were
23 called out.
24 A. I said that these five from my room were called out, Hadzimesic,
25 Mirsad, Esad, and those others, they were called out. Hajra was called
1 out as well. Edib Muminovic was called out, too, and Musanovic
3 Q. You mentioned about 35 to 40 were taken out for this plum picking.
4 Do you remember the names of any others that were in this group that
5 didn't come from your room, And what are some of those names?
6 A. Well, I don't remember well. I heard of someone with a last name
7 Berber from Zelece [phoen], there were one or two of them, and I just
8 don't remember other names.
9 Q. And the names of the people that you do remember, did you see them
10 alive since that -- have you seen them alive since that day?
11 A. No, no. We expected them and were looking forward to them coming
12 back and bringing us plums so that we could eat them as well; however,
13 they never came back.
14 Q. And do you know of anyone else that's seen them alive since that
16 A. I know that nobody ever saw them again.
17 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know who the warden was?
18 A. While I was at the KP Dom, Krnojelac, Milorad, was the warden. I
19 knew him as the warden. This is what the guards and other inmates,
20 detainees, were mentioning. All of us knew who the warden was.
21 Q. So was this common knowledge, or was it special information?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness has already explained.
25 Why do we need him to make a conclusion as to whether this was a generally
1 known fact? He already stated how did he know and whom did he hear it
2 from, and this is now a conclusion based on a leading question requesting
3 him to state whether this was a well-known fact or not.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I would agree with you that the witness's conclusions
5 need not be stated here in Court, provided we know the precise basis from
6 which the Prosecution will ask us to draw our own conclusions, but that
7 is, as I understand it, what this question is directed to.
8 The witness has said, "I knew him as the warden. This is what the
9 guards and other inmates, detainees, were mentioning"; and the question
10 was, was this common knowledge or was it special information. And I would
11 agree with you that perhaps the question isn't the clearest, but my
12 understanding of its intention was, is this something that you were told
13 specifically by the others, or did you just gain that impression yourself.
14 In other words, this is a question which I think will assist your
15 client, it certainly will assist us, in knowing how to draw our own
17 Is that what you're after, Mr. Smith?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours.
19 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, perhaps you might like to ask him where
21 did he hear it, did he hear it directly, or how did he hear the
22 discussion, or something like that.
23 MR. SMITH: Thank you.
24 Q. Were you told directly from either a guard or detainee that
25 Mr. Krnojelac was the warden, or did you hear it through secondhand
2 A. Well, we heard it amongst ourselves. We discussed what was going
3 on in the KP Dom, the guards discussed as well, and those who went to work
4 outside of the compound, they knew it, too. So it was no secret that
5 Mr. Krnojelac was the warden.
6 Q. Did you hear the guards' discussions that he was the warden, or
7 was that referred to you by other detainees?
8 A. It was related to me by other detainees, by those who had contacts
9 with the guards, those who were taken by the guards to work outside of the
11 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac whilst you were detained?
12 A. I saw Mr. Krnojelac once as he was going to the restaurant. I
13 watched through the window. I saw him go to the restaurant for breakfast,
14 around 10.00.
15 Q. And what was he wearing?
16 A. He was wearing a grey-green uniform. He did not have a hat on
18 Q. And did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?
19 A. Yes. Foca is a small town, and it was easy for us to recognise
20 all of its citizens, so I knew him.
21 Q. Who was the commander of the guards or the supervisor of the
23 A. Commander of the guards was Milorad Rasevic. He was commander of
24 the guards.
25 Q. And how often did you see him whilst you were at the KP Dom?
1 A. Well, I saw him more often. On one occasion he came into our room
2 to tell us something, to tell us that we mustn't try to escape. Those who
3 would try to escape would be shot. He talked to us for some 30, 40
4 minutes about those things, and then he left. He was talking to us in the
5 hallway of our room.
6 Q. And what type of, what type of clothing did he wear at the KP Dom?
7 A. He wore a blue uniform.
8 Q. And were you interviewed whilst you were at the KP Dom?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. About how many times were you interviewed?
11 A. I was interviewed once in the administrative building, and on a
12 second occasion they took me to an office near my room for an additional,
13 supplemental interview. This is what they called it, and this is where
14 they interviewed me again.
15 Q. And on the first occasion, who interviewed you?
16 A. On the first occasion I was interviewed by Zoran Vladicic. He
17 started interviewing me, and then he let Misa Koprivica continue because
18 Zoran was ordered to go somewhere else, I don't where. And at any rate,
19 he left the office, and I was taken to the second office to Misa Koprivica
20 who continued interviewing me.
21 Q. And how did you get to the interview room from your Room 16? Were
22 you escorted, or did you go there by yourself?
23 A. Escorted. A policeman came to the door and a guard and called out
24 my name. He called out my name, and I went with him to the administrative
25 building, and there another guard took me over and took me upstairs to
1 Zoran Vladicic. This is how it was.
2 Q. And these guards, what uniforms were they wearing?
3 A. They wore blue uniforms.
4 Q. During the interview, the first interview, what was asked of you?
5 A. During the first interview they asked me who I was, where was I
6 arrested, and things like that. And then after that, when Miso took over,
7 he asked me whether I was in the Bosnian TO, Territorial Defence. And
8 then he asked me who I left Foca with, when, who accompanied me, whether I
9 was a member of any political party, and things like that, whether I had
10 weapons, what had I done with the weapons. I answered those questions.
11 The questions were along those lines. And he also asked me whether I had
12 a position within the military and whether I was a member of a certain
13 formation. They mentioned the formation, but I knew nothing of it. I was
14 an elderly man and I was not interested in that. I was a family man,
15 stayed at home. So I can tell you now that I visited the mosque.
16 Q. And did you state that you were a member of a political party?
17 A. I stated that I was not, which was the truth.
18 Q. In 1996 did you make a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor,
19 to an investigator from the Tribunal?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In that statement, which is signed by you, it states that, "Prior
22 to the war I was a member of the SDA party, but I was not actively
23 involved in politics."
24 Can you explain that?
25 A. I can explain that I was not a member of the SDA. I was a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 supporter, if I may call it that. And that I went to the mosque and came
2 back and discussed things on the road had nothing to do with it. I was
3 never a member. Insofar as that is concerned, I was nothing; I had no
4 duties. Because we old people did not want to get embroiled in this,
5 because God knows what can come out of it. No, I was never a member, just
6 a supporter, and I'm a supporter to this day. But then I wasn't a member,
7 and I'm not a member.
8 Q. Were you mistreated during the interview?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. And were you asked to tell the truth in relation to their
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Did they tell what you would happen if you didn't tell the truth
14 during the interview?
15 A. Yes. They said that if I didn't tell the truth, that they would
16 take my statement and they would summon me again and put me in the
17 isolation cell. And the further procedure, they said, "We don't know
18 ourselves." But I only told the truth and I didn't change my statement.
19 Q. And were you told by these interrogators why you were detained at
20 the KP Dom?
21 A. They said nothing. They were all detained only because they were
22 Muslims, because they were all Muslims, regardless of what each one of
23 them was. And I remember people who were Communists or were nothing, were
24 just people from the street or bums or drunkards, and all they had with
25 Islam was their name, and yet they were brought there.
1 Q. Were you ever told by these interrogators or anyone from the
2 management of the KP Dom that you could have your detention reviewed?
3 A. No. No.
4 Q. And were you ever charged with any offence at the KP Dom or
5 convicted of any offence whilst you were there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And what was the date that you left the KP Dom?
8 A. 31st October 1992, and then I was transferred to Kalinovik and
9 spent ten days there.
10 Q. Did you leave with any other detainees from the KP Dom?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And about how many did you leave with?
13 A. There were 30 of us.
14 Q. And were you given a reason as to why you were being taken out of
15 the KP Dom on that day?
16 A. We were told nothing. No, they did not say anything.
17 Q. And you said that you were taken to Kalinovik and you spent ten
18 days there. Where in Kalinovik were you taken?
19 A. They took us to Kalinovik, across Tjentiste, and then Gacko,
20 Kifino selo, Nevesinje, and we fetched up in Kalinovik.
21 Q. And who took you to your room to leave the KP Dom? Were you
22 escorted out towards the administration centre or did you leave of your
23 own accord?
24 A. They came, called us out at the door, and then they saw us off to
25 the administration, that is, to the administrative building. And there
1 they went through our belongings, everything we had, because we had some
2 small shoulder bags with - I don't know - soap and toothbrushes and things
3 like that. But they went through those bags and then others took us over,
4 outside, in front of the administrative building, in front of its door.
5 And there was a lorry waiting for us, a military lorry with seats all
6 around, and they put us onto that lorry and took us to Kalinovik.
7 Q. Before you got to the Kalinovik police station, did you stop
8 somewhere else?
9 A. Yes. We stopped at a place -- I don't know what that particular
10 locality was called. We went - pardon my language - to relieve ourselves,
11 and they beat us a little as we returned, as we were climbing back into
12 the lorry, and we just ran a gauntlet. They beat whoever they could lay
13 their hands on.
14 So we arrived in Kalinovik. At first they put us in a shed, in a
15 wooden shed, at a place called Jazici, I think, and that is where they put
16 us, all 30 of us. After that they took four of us from there, and I was
17 one of them, and three more, and drove us to the Kalinovik police station,
18 which was about a kilometre or two from that shed where we had originally
19 been put.
20 Q. And who were the people that took you from the KP Dom to Jazici
21 and then to the police station?
22 A. Well, those who brought us to Jazici, I did not know them. I
23 don't know who they are. But they were soldiers, they were military, but
24 where from, I wouldn't know. And they were the ones who also took us to
25 the police station, I mean the four of us. And then I was beaten. I
1 don't know if I told you before, but I was beaten then when they took me
2 from Jasce to the police station. It was then that they beat me, and they
3 broke three ribs and my spine. I was all broken down. And they threw me
4 into an isolation cell. I couldn't move for ten days. I was very
5 uncomfortable. And there was no reason whatsoever. One said, "Look at
6 the balija now. See what the Serb police does." And I just kept my mouth
7 shut; I said nothing.
8 Q. Were you beaten at the Kalinovik police station or before you
9 arrived there?
10 A. Before I arrived there.
11 Q. I would now like you to look at the sheet in front of you and ask
12 you whether or not you saw any other detainees from the KP Dom at the
13 Kalinovik police station when you arrived, other than the three that you
14 came with.
15 A. Yes, number 109.
16 Q. Was there anyone else from the KP Dom at the Kalinovik police
17 station apart from 109?
18 A. Yes. Yes. The driver, 109, and another one -- what's his name?
19 Well, whatever, but there were two of them.
20 Q. Did they tell -- did you speak to them at the police station?
21 A. No, no. I was in another isolation cell, that is, I was in one
22 and they were in another one. We were not together.
23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness -- or the person 109 is
24 mentioned in Schedule A, number 14.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 MR. SMITH:
2 Q. You stated that you stayed at the Kalinovik police station for 10
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was the food that you received at that police station better or
6 worse than the KP Dom, or the same?
7 A. Same, same.
8 Q. Were you given any treatment for the injuries that you received,
9 the broken ribs, at the Kalinovik police, at the Kalinovik police station?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And what date were you exchanged? What date did you leave the
12 Kalinovik police station?
13 A. On the 8th or the 9th, the 8th or the 9th. 9th, I think, November
15 Q. And after that date, were you released, or did you continue to be
17 A. Released. I was released that day.
18 Q. When you were released, how much did you weigh?
19 A. I weighed quite a lot when I was a civilian. I was about 80
20 before I went into the prison, and I came out of the prison weighing 39
22 Your Honours, if necessary, I can show you. I still bear the
23 scars from that time that they broke my ribs. I have to wear an elastic
24 band always, and whenever the weather changes, it hurts. I still smart
25 from all those injuries. I can show you.
1 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment once you were released?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you went to hospital, is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How long were you in hospital for?
6 A. Two and a half months.
7 Q. And what were you treated for? What was the reason for being in
9 A. The reason was that I had lost a lot of weight, that was one
10 thing; secondly, that I had broken ribs and spine, and I received
11 treatment for that and because I could not walk.
12 Q. And did you receive any treatment for the weight loss?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was that?
15 A. The infusion they fed me in the beginning, and so I was given
16 vitamins and juices and - what do you call them? - so that I could
17 recover. And then, of course, the food I was given after that was
19 Q. You mentioned that your wife was taken to the KP Dom when you
20 first arrived and she stayed there for, I believe, one or two nights.
21 Where did she go after she left the KP Dom?
22 A. My wife was arrested with me and came to the KP Dom with me and
23 spent an evening -- no, almost two evenings she spent with me. She was
24 released the second evening, late into the night, and she went home and
25 spent -- was at home under house arrest until the 13th of August, 1992.
1 And then she was rounded up with all the other neighbours and all these
2 women were taken to Rozaje in Montenegro, to Rozaje. There is a Rozaje --
3 Rozaje is the name of a town in Montenegro. And that was it.
4 Q. You said she was rounded up. Did she leave Foca voluntarily, or
5 was she forced to leave?
6 A. Forced to leave, forced.
7 Q. And can you explain how she was forced to leave?
8 A. I can. Other neighbours, other women came and said, "You have to
9 go. This Foca is not yours, it's ours, and you have to leave. If you
10 don't leave by tomorrow morning, tomorrow evening you will be killed."
11 And in the morning they came -- and she said yes, and in the morning they
12 came, took her, and drove her away. And they drove away all the Muslims
13 that were still left in Foca. Women, children, everybody else, they all
14 left Foca that day and were taken to Montenegro, to Rozaje.
15 Q. And who drove them away? Who drove your wife away?
16 A. Neighbours.
17 Q. Who drove the bus?
18 A. I think his name was (redacted). I don't
19 know the first name. That's what she told me, (redacted) was his last
21 Q. And do you know, do you know whether -- who he worked for? Was it
22 for the military or the civilian authority or a private enterprise?
23 A. I don't know, no, I don't.
24 Q. And you said that your wife during this period was placed under
25 house arrest. What was she stopped from doing?
1 A. She could not go out; she could not go into town; she could not go
2 anywhere. There were also some refugees with her, those that had come
3 with us from -- who had arrived with us from the prison, and several more
4 women and children were together. They all lived together in my house.
5 Q. And who put her under house arrest?
6 A. Well, the police ordered her that she could not move about.
7 Q. Do you know whether Bosnian Serbs within the town were also placed
8 under house arrest?
9 A. I don't know. No, they were not.
10 Q. What effect has your detention on the KP Dom had on you
12 A. Bad. Because I never thought -- I never knew the reason for which
13 I had been put in KP Dom. It never occurred to me that something like
14 that might happen to me. I did not know why. I'm simply not aware of any
15 responsibility of anything that I'd done whatsoever. Only that I was a
16 Muslim, nothing else.
17 None of my people, none of members of my family were in any army
18 or party or anything. We were living a quiet life, no thrills, nothing.
19 We were living a proper, civil life.
20 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Allow me to introduce myself:
1 Miroslav Vasic, one of the counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.
2 Today when asked by my learned friend, you said that you made a
3 statement to the OTP investigators in 1996, and I should like to ask you
4 if in addition to this statement you gave yet another statement to the OTP
5 in 1998 on the 25th of September, and did you also make a statement to the
6 Public Security Centre in Sarajevo on the 8th of November, 1992?
7 A. I won't talk to you.
8 JUDGE HUNT: I think, sir, you will be doing no assistance to
9 yourself if you take that attitude. Mr. Vasic here is appearing for the
10 accused. He has a task to undertake. It may not be a pleasant task so
11 far as you're concerned, but our obligation here is to reach the truth in
12 the matter, and we will only reach the truth if your evidence is fairly
13 and properly tested.
14 Now, if you do take that attitude, it would probably mean that we
15 would not be able to take advantage of the evidence which you have given,
16 whereas as it may very well be true. So I do suggest to you that you
17 reconsider that answer. If you'd like some time to do so, we'd be happy
18 to grant it to you, but if you are going to refuse to answer any questions
19 in cross-examination, that will be the end of any further evidence from
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me think about it.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Would you like some time to do so?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, right away. Let him repeat the
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir. I'm very grateful to you.
1 Mr. Vasic, I don't think you need to repeat the introduction, but
2 just refer him to the statement, would you?
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
4 Q. Witness, did you make a statement to the OTP investigators on the
5 25th of September, 1998?
6 A. I don't know the date. I don't remember.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Have you a copy of it there, Mr. Vasic? If you could
8 show it to him, it may be of assistance. I couldn't tell you what day I
9 signed something if I'd even signed it last week. It would be fairer, I
10 think, to show him the document.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. It is the
12 document that was given us by the OTP. It is ID 188 and ID 188A in
13 B/C/S. Would the usher please help me.
14 Your Honours, if the witness cannot recognise this document, I can
15 also give it to him in English if it will help him to remember if he did
16 indeed give the statement or not.
17 JUDGE HUNT: This is one of the ones given to the local
18 authorities, and it would have been in B/C/S as the original, would it
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a statement to
21 the OTP.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. Well, you can show him also the original
23 which is in English which I assume has a signature on it.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours.
25 A. Yes. I signed. This is my signature. But I just don't remember
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the date there. It's somehow too close, and I don't remember giving any
2 such -- any statements in such a near past, but I can't remember really.
3 Somehow it's just too short a time ago, only two years ago, and I don't
4 remember giving it at the time.
5 Q. But when you gave this statement, did you then read and sign every
6 page of that statement?
7 A. I usually signed separately the pages of the statement.
8 Q. [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE HUNT: We got no translation of that.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, Your Honour.
11 Q. I do not know if this is your signature, because there is a
12 signature on every page, but we do not know if it is yours.
13 A. This is my signature, and this here is my signature also. This is
14 quite clear. But one signature here is just something I cannot
16 Q. Can you please tell us on which page is this unusual signature?
17 Do you believe this not to be your signature?
18 A. I don't know. I don't know.
19 Q. Do you know how many pages was the statement that you gave to the
20 OTP investigators long?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Thank you. On 8 November 1992 did you give a statement to the
23 police in the Public Security Centre in Sarajevo? I will give you a
24 statement shortly so that you can verify whether it is indeed your
25 statement and whether it is your signature.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a document ID
2 189 in B/C/S and ID 189A in English.
3 A. Yes, this is mine. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. When asked by my learned friend today, you stated that
5 you did know Milorad Krnojelac prior to the war.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you please tell us whether you have observed any anti-Muslim
8 sentiments or attitudes in him?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Could you please tell us: While you were staying
11 in KP Dom, do you know how many Muslims were detained there?
12 A. Well, five or six hundred, something around that, from between
13 five to six hundred. Depends when.
14 Q. Thank you. When you left KP Dom in October of 1992, do you
15 know -- and as you left for Kalinovik, do you know how many Muslim
16 detainees remained at the KP Dom?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Thank you, sir.
19 A. I think around two or three hundred, something around that figure,
20 but I'm not sure.
21 Q. Did you, in your statement to the Public Security Centre, did you
22 state that when you left KP Dom, 110 detainees remained?
23 A. Perhaps I stated that, but I wasn't sure of it, because I could
24 have given that number arbitrarily. I'm sure that the number that
25 remained was greater than that.
1 Q. Now you're saying that this number was greater by two or three
2 times. Are you sure of what you're saying now?
3 A. Yes, I am confident.
4 Q. Thank you. Today you told us that you were not a member of the
5 SDA but you were a supporter. Did you have a membership card of the SDA?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. When asked by my learned friend, you described the
8 events in Pilipovici immediately after your arrest. Did you, in your
9 statement to the -- at the Public Security Centre in Sarajevo, did you
10 state at the time -- and I will now read this out of the statement. This
11 is the last sentence in the last paragraph. I wouldn't read the whole
12 paragraph, because some names are mentioned, and my question pertains to
13 what is stated in the last sentence:
14 "The same people were taken behind the hangar, and they tried
15 shooting them and fired several hundred bullets at them."
16 Is this what you stated?
17 A. No. I said that they were taken away, but how could I have
18 possibly counted how many bullets they fired? I just know that it was a
19 large number, but I certainly couldn't have known the exact number.
20 Can I ask you something? May I ask a question?
21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Sir, I am afraid that my role in this
22 proceedings is such that I'm the one who is putting questions to you.
23 JUDGE HUNT: It may be, however, that the witness only wants to
24 know something which can easily be answered. Perhaps if he asks the Trial
25 Chamber what it is he wants to know, we'll find out whether it's something
1 which you should be telling him, Mr. Vasic.
2 Sir, you may ask us what it is you want to know and we'll see what
3 we can do about answering it for you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I want to ask -- when
5 the Defence counsel asked me whether I was a member of the SDA, I was not,
6 but I want to know whether he himself was a member of the SDS or a member
7 of the Radical Party.
8 JUDGE HUNT: That's --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then came here.
10 JUDGE HUNT: That's the very sort of thing, sir, that we are not
11 interested in. You may be interested in it, but we are not. Mr. Vasic
12 here is here as a counsel, a lawyer who is representing his client to the
13 best of his ability. What his views are are quite irrelevant. It is
14 obvious from his name that he is a Serb, but that doesn't mean that he has
15 any political views, and we are not concerned as to whether he has. And I
16 suggest to you, sir, that you should just put that to one side. If
17 there's something which the members of this Trial Chamber have learnt
18 since being here, the feelings between the different ethnicities remains
19 very strong, and we understand that, but we are trying not to let those
20 feelings interfere with the proceedings here. So please, sir, you answer
21 his questions. Don't worry about what his political views are or may be.
22 You proceed, Mr. Vasic.
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
24 I can reply to the witness. I was never a member of any political
25 party. I hope this alleviates the issue.
1 Q. My question is the following: Did you state at the Public
2 Security Centre that these people attempted to shoot?
3 A. I did not say that they attempted to shoot; I said that they were
4 shot, which is what happened.
5 Q. I read to you what was stated in the statement that you supposedly
6 read and signed. Did you read the statement of yours?
7 A. I did. I probably did. I know for a certainty that these people
8 were shot. I stand by that.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you told us that people were beaten in an
10 isolation cell which was in the back section of the administrative
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to show
13 to the witness document 6/1.
14 Q. And you, sir, I would like to point on this drawing to the
15 isolation cells.
16 Can I please ask you to point to where the -- to point to
17 isolation cells where all these beatings took place.
18 A. Here, here. One, two.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness points to
20 the right section of the administrative building from the entrance, from
21 left to the right, he pointed to the third and fourth room.
22 JUDGE HUNT: The ones which bear the numbers "1" and "2."
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes. The rooms labelled as Room 1
24 and 2, and a hall.
25 Thank you, sir. We will not be needing this drawing any more.
1 A. These are the isolation cells. I was here in this building across
2 in pavilion number 1, and my bed was right next to the window, so I would
3 see all this.
4 Q. Thank you. My learned colleague asked you whether you were
5 mistreated during interrogation, and I would like to ask you whether you
6 had been mistreated at all while you were staying at the KP Dom?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you have to undergo any forced labour while you
9 were at the KP Dom?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. Today you mentioned that Zelenovic, Zoran Vukovic,
12 conducted the beatings. Were they members of the military police?
13 A. No, I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you tell the OTP investigators on a court-martial
15 in Foca?
16 A. I heard about that.
17 Q. Do you know where its headquarters was?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you. Today you mentioned a group of detainees that went
20 plum picking. Can you tell us when?
21 A. September 17th, 1992.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know that together with this group of
23 detainees, two guards who escorted them failed to return as well? Are you
24 aware of that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you. Were these people taken away by soldiers?
2 A. Guards called out their names, and as to who took them there, I
3 really don't know.
4 Q. Did you in your statement to the -- in your first statement to the
5 OTP investigators, did you state that the group that went plum picking was
6 ordered by soldiers not to take anything along with them?
7 A. Yes, that's right, yes.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you mentioned that when you were brought to
9 Room 11 where you saw Munib Veiz, Zulfo Veiz, and Mr. Hodzic, you saw them
10 beaten up. Were they beaten up prior to coming to the KP Dom?
11 A. I don't know. I think not, but I really don't know when they were
12 beaten up. I just know that they were beaten up. Now, whether this
13 happened prior to coming to the KP Dom or after, I really don't know.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. When you left Room 11, did Mr. Munib and Zulfo
15 Veiz remain in that room?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Today you stated that one of the detainees who was a physician
18 helped Dzano Hasan. Could you tell us who it was, please?
19 A. Amir Berberkic. He worked in the hospital in Foca, and he was in
20 our room.
21 Q. Today when asked by my learned friend, you mentioned a group that
22 was taken out, and at that time you stated that it was mostly people from
23 Josanica and surrounding areas. How do you know this, and could you tell
24 us who was in that group?
25 A. Hasan Dzano, and people from that area around Josanica. That's
1 what I know.
2 Q. Did you know these people?
3 A. Yes, I knew Hasan and Emir and Asim. I knew those three well.
4 Q. What about the others?
5 A. I didn't know them well.
6 Q. And then how come you knew that they were from Josanica and
7 surrounding area as well?
8 A. Who do you mean?
9 Q. Well, the other people in that group, how did you know that they
10 were from Josanica?
11 A. Well, when they were taken out, we watched from the window as they
12 were taken out and we saw that all those people were from Josanica and the
13 surrounding area, from villages around Josanica.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you stated that you saw Milorad Krnojelac
15 once in KP Dom and that he was wearing a grey-olive uniform. Was he
16 wearing the old kind of grey-olive uniform?
17 A. I don't know. I just know that it was a grey-olive uniform. It
18 was in good shape, it looked well. Now whether it was old or new, I
19 really don't know.
20 Q. Did you in your statement, in your second statement to the OTP
21 investigators, did you state, "I saw him from my cell. He wore a military
22 uniform. It was an old grey-olive uniform"?
23 A. Well, it was an old grey-olive uniform that I used to wear myself
24 when I did my compulsory military service, so this is what I meant when I
25 said "old uniform."
1 Q. Thank you. You were talking about what happened to Mr. Cedic
2 which he had told you himself, and you mentioned a detail concerning the
3 salt. Why didn't you bring this up in any of your previous statements
4 when you were discussing an incident during which Mr. Cedic was injured?
5 A. Well, perhaps I had forgotten, I really don't know. I probably
6 forgot. I can't keep everything in my mind. A computer would not be able
7 to keep everything in. So I didn't mention this, but that doesn't mean
8 that that's not the truth.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.
10 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour. I believe he did mention it
11 in his first statement, the 8th of November, 1992. It's mentioned on the
12 second page.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Your second page may not be the same as Mr. Vasic's
14 second page, of course.
15 MR. SMITH: It's --
16 JUDGE HUNT: The typed copies are not always the same as the
18 MR. SMITH: That's true, Your Honour. It's a relatively short
19 statement. It's a two-page statement.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Tell Mr. Vasic the paragraph, how the paragraph
22 MR. SMITH: Well, in relation -- it's more difficult to pick out
23 from the Bosnian statement, but from the English statement, it's on the
24 second page and the fourth paragraph down.
25 MR. VASIC: Which statement?
1 JUDGE HUNT: How does the paragraph commence? That's the only way
2 you can ever pick these things out.
3 MR. SMITH: "I wish to point out that Serbian guards maltreated,
4 beat, and subjected people ... and even forced some of them to eat half a
5 kilo of salt, as is the case of Zaim Cedic from Tjentiste," and two or
6 three other people.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Have you picked that up, Mr. Vasic?
8 MR. VASIC: As far as we know. Just a minute.
9 JUDGE HUNT: What's the date of the statement, Mr. Smith?
10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, it's 8th of November, 1992, and it's in
11 the third paragraph of the B/C/S version on the second page, and on the
12 fourth paragraph --
13 MR. VASIC: But which statement? Pardon.
14 JUDGE HUNT: The date of the 8th of November, 1992.
15 MR. SMITH: To the Bosnian authorities. On the English version
16 it's on the second page, it's the fourth paragraph, and it starts with, "I
17 wish to point out."
18 Your Honour, if I can ask the usher, I can show my copy of the
20 MR. VASIC: I find it. Thank you. [Interpretation] I withdraw my
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Today, when mentioning Mr. Dedovic, Mr. Nurko Nisic, and
25 Mr. Rikalo, you stated that nobody ever saw them afterwards. Can you
1 please tell us: How do you know that nobody ever saw them afterwards?
2 A. Well, what kind of a question is this? Everybody knows this.
3 MR. SMITH: Objection, Your Honour.
4 A. The entire population of Foca knows. People from Foca know.
5 People in Sarajevo also know this. They -- everybody knows that nobody
6 ever saw them again. This is -- what kind of a question is this?
7 JUDGE HUNT: I think what Mr. Vasic is after is: Have people told
8 you that they have never seen any of these men again, or have you been
9 involved in any investigation into where they are?
10 Is that what you're after, Mr. Vasic? You want to know the source
11 from which he can -- he is able to say everybody knows that they have not
12 been seen. Well, ask him, perhaps, again: Who did you hear from that
13 they had not seen those three gentlemen?
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE HUNT: It may produce a very long answer and it may be
16 better that we start again with it in the morning.
17 But if I may say to you, sir, the witness, you'll have noticed
18 that Mr. Smith, who is appearing for the Prosecution, is very ready to
19 object to anything which he considers to be unfair. He's asked us to rule
20 on it. So you should leave that to him rather than objecting yourself.
21 You answer the question unless there is an objection taken.
22 We'll resume again tomorrow at 9.30.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.59 p.m., to
24 be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of January,
25 2000, at 9.30 a.m.