1 Thursday, 25
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number IT-97-25-T,
8 the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Before we resume, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the registry
10 has made a complaint, which I think is justified, at the direction which
11 you had put in your order and which I signed, making the Victims and
12 Witnesses Section responsible for serving that witness summons, and they
13 pointed out to me that they have previously said to the Prosecution it
14 should never be the Victims and Witnesses Section.
15 The point, which I agree with, is that the Victims and Witness
16 Section has a particular function to perform. According to the Rules, it
17 recommends protective measures and it looks after the witnesses when they
18 arrive here, and they arrange their travel here. It would compromise the
19 Section if they were also put into some sort of enforcement role. So I've
20 directed the registry to ignore that part of the order, and I'll make it
21 formal later, and somebody else from the registry will be responsible.
22 But would you please make it clear to the people upstairs that they should
23 never, ever suggest in an order that it should be the Victims and
24 Witnesses Section to serve such things as summonses and subpoenas.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Sorry for this mistake.
1 JUDGE HUNT: It's all right. We've got it sorted out.
2 Yes, Mr. Vasic. You were cross-examining.
3 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, before
5 my colleague Vasic proceeds, I thought I should inform you that the
6 accused has got back his glasses, that he can follow now the proceedings
7 normally and regularly, and I should like to thank you for the attention.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for letting us know. We're very grateful
10 to hear that.
11 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 WITNESS: FWS-104 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Witness. Yesterday we talked about isolation cells
17 and you pointed at them for us. I'd like to ask you now: Who did you
18 hear from about these isolation cells?
19 A. I heard it from those people who were kept there, from inmates.
20 Q. From inmates who told you that they had been taken there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. You testified yesterday that some persons were taken
23 away and that they are missing to this day. I shall now ask you about
24 each one of them individually who had you talked about -- who did you talk
25 about. Who told you that Mr. Husein Dzano is gone and missing?
1 A. I spoke to his neighbours in Sarajevo.
2 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Emir Mandzo?
3 A. I talked to his wife and his mother.
4 Q. And Mr. Cedic?
5 A. About Mr. Cedic, I heard from his neighbours.
6 Q. And about Mr. Nurko Nisic?
7 A. About Mr. Nurko Nisic, I heard it from his wife.
8 Q. Mr. Husko Rikalo?
9 A. About Husko Rikalo, I heard it from his mother, whom I saw in
10 Sarajevo daily.
11 Q. Mr. Ramo Dzendusic?
12 A. Mr. Ramo Dzendusic, from his relatives.
13 Q. You also said that ten to 15 people were taken from Josanica and
14 that nobody ever saw them again. Who did you discuss these people with?
15 A. I talked with their neighbours who were in Sarajevo.
16 Q. Yesterday you did not give us the names of all the people.
17 A. Well, I don't know all those names.
18 Q. Will you please, for your safety, because your voice is protected,
19 will you please wait for me to switch off the microphone so that your
20 voice doesn't get through my microphone.
21 JUDGE HUNT: It is also a problem with the translators, sir, so
22 that pause is very important. If the microphone of the counsel who's
23 asking you questions is left on, then your voice is no longer distorted,
24 so for your own protection, you must have that pause.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You said you talked to neighbours and relatives, and when was
4 A. Well, I talked to -- with them between 1996 -- ever since 1996,
5 for the past three, four years. I found those people in Sarajevo. I met
6 them, and they all said the same thing.
7 Q. When you testified about the group which went to pick plums, you
8 mentioned Mr. Kasim Musanovic and Mr. Halim Konjo. Did you also mention
9 them in your statements to OTP investigators?
10 A. I don't know, I'm not sure. I believe I did, but I don't know.
11 Q. These persons are not mentioned on page 7 of your first statement.
12 This statement mentions eight persons, and neither Mr. Halim Konjo or
13 Mr. Musanovic are among them.
14 A. Well, I suppose I simply did not remember them at the time when I
15 was giving the statement.
16 Q. So, oh, you remembered about them afterwards?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, just in relation to that last question,
20 I think my friend mentioned that the witness didn't mention the names in
21 his first statement. In the statement, the English version, 189A, on the
22 8th of November, 1992 --
23 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait a minute. Just to shortcut this, Mr. Vasic
24 referred to page 7 of the first statement. Was he wrong about that, or
25 was he wrong by overlooking the fact that the names are mentioned
1 somewhere else in the statement?
2 MR. SMITH: I think both. The first statement contains two pages.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
4 MR. SMITH: That's the one in November 1992. And in that first
5 statement, he does mention --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. SMITH: He does mention Musanovic. There's a slightly
8 different spelling. And also in that first statement he does mention
9 Halim Konjo, but under different circumstances.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the point is -- your point would be good for
11 the first but not the second, I would have thought.
12 MR. SMITH: That's correct.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, Mr. Vasic, these things should be put
14 with some care. I understand you've got an awful lot of material that
15 you've got to keep in mind, but do check before you make assertions. The
16 witness doesn't have the document in front of him, and he can't check it.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of the
18 objection, I should merely like to point out that I asked about the
19 statement which was given to OTP investigators and page 7 of the
20 statement. I did not ask anything about the statement which the witness
21 gave to the Public Security Centre.
22 JUDGE HUNT: But your point, your point is only a good one if he
23 hasn't mentioned it anywhere. The fact that he mentions it in one and not
24 in another doesn't really carry any weight, if I may say so.
25 Your point is that this is an afterthought, and it would be a good
1 one, or it could be a good one, only if it had never been mentioned in
2 these circumstances. So may I suggest you take the substance of the point
3 and not this minute detail; it doesn't help us.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Witness, yesterday you testified about where and when you were
6 exchanged, and you said there were about 30 other persons from the KP
7 Dom. Could you give us the names of those persons who left with you for
8 exchange and had been in the KP Dom with you?
9 A. Well, I can. I can tell you as far as I can remember. There was
10 Emir Mujezinovic, Alija Sljivo, Murid Islambasic, then Sead Dejovic.
11 Other names I can't remember.
12 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you said that your wife was under house
13 arrest, and since the time that you talked about she was in Foca and there
14 were very many military and paramilitary formations on the streets.
15 Wasn't it safer for her to be in the house in view of the situation in
16 Foca at the time?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer
18 because he overlapped with the counsel.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I don't want to keep on saying this to you, but you
20 must wait until there has been a pause after the question. In fact, your
21 answer on that occasion actually overlapped the question itself. Now,
22 please, we're all trying to understand the difficulties you are having,
23 but you are not helping yourself and you're certainly not helping us if we
24 lose the whole answer.
25 We'll need the question asked again, I'm afraid, Mr. Vasic, so we
1 get an answer.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Don't you think, in view of the situation in Foca, that it was
4 safer for your wife to be in the house rather than on the street?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That is also
7 what the witness said the first time. And thank you, we have no further
9 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Smith?
10 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, then, sir, your experience is
12 over. Thank you for giving evidence. You may leave, but please wait
13 until the blinds have been drawn so that you will be able to leave without
14 the public seeing you.
15 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in relation to the next witness, there's
16 a matter I'd like to raise in relation to protection measures. No
17 protection measures have been granted. He has asked for image and a
18 pseudonym, and perhaps that should be discussed in closed session.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Why? Is there some real problem about it?
20 MR. SMITH: No. Well, I suppose it's not essential in that
21 sense. He didn't request protection measures when asked a while ago by
22 the Prosecution. When he arrived at the Tribunal, he raised the matter.
23 He states that he goes into -- he returns to Bosnia every year, and he's
24 got a concern for his safety if his name is made known. And he returns to
25 an area which is near the area of Foca.
1 JUDGE HUNT: I see.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, I think we can probably assume that
4 you will object to the protective measures sought, but that does fall
5 within the usual parameters of granting them. Is there anything more you
6 want to add?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, I have nothing to
8 add. We stand by our earlier opinion, which you already know, and our
9 objection is along those lines again.
10 JUDGE HUNT: We look forward to hearing what you've got to say
11 when you seek protective measures for one of your own witnesses.
12 Yes, very well, then. Yes, Mr. Smith, we'll grant those
13 protective measures. He already has a -- it's he, is it?
14 MR. SMITH: Yes.
15 JUDGE HUNT: He already has a pseudonym, 104.
16 MR. SMITH: That was the previous one.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. 03.
18 MR. SMITH: 03, yes. I believe a pseudonym sheet has been passed
19 to the ...
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know if this
22 is the convenient time, but to use the time before the witness arrives,
23 regarding our submission for psychological expert witness and the response
24 of the Prosecution. I trust that the response of the Prosecution has
25 already reached you. We discussed it with members of the OTP.
1 JUDGE HUNT: I have to say, Mr. Bakrac, it hasn't. There seems to
2 have been some insoluble blockage in the passage from the registry floor
3 to the Chambers floor, but I personally am having a great deal of
4 difficulty in getting any documents. When was it filed?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] On the 17th of January. That is the
6 date on the document, 17th of January. I see we did not discuss it, and
7 that is why I took the liberty of raising that matter.
8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm grateful to you for having done so. Is there any
9 possibility of us getting a copy so we can look at it perhaps during the
10 morning adjournment?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. We will provide it.
12 JUDGE HUNT: As soon as we've got it, we'll raise it with you,
13 Mr. Bakrac, so we've got it finalised.
14 The witness pseudonym sheet will be Exhibit P417, and it is under
16 The second name on that list you don't provide any sort of a
17 pseudonym for, Mr. Smith.
18 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour. This person is not a witness in the
19 case but it just refers to a relation of his which he'll be referring to a
20 lot throughout his testimony.
21 JUDGE HUNT: So it will only be a reference to "my relation" or
22 some such phrase.
23 MR. SMITH: That's right. That's correct.
24 JUDGE HUNT: So that we know that this second name on this sheet
25 is that relation.
1 MR. SMITH: Yes.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We might deal with the exit certificate,
3 or whatever they call it, at the same time. Is there any objection to
4 that being made an Exhibit, Mr. Bakrac?
5 [The witness entered court]
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, that will be Exhibit P418. It too
8 will be under seal, as will the English translation of it, which is P418A.
9 Now, sir, will you please take the solemn declaration in the
10 document which is being shown to you.
11 WITNESS: FWS-3 [Name redacted]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
16 The transcript has got the witness's name. That should be now
17 shown as FWS-3. We'll just pause to enable that to be done before it goes
18 any further.
19 Are you going to change the transcript now?
20 Yes, you proceed, Mr. Smith.
21 We still have to delete the name. You can't do that? Because the
22 transcript now goes on the Internet, you see.
23 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]
24 JUDGE HUNT: It will be redacted, then.
25 Proceed, Mr. Smith.
1 Examined by Mr. Smith:
2 Q. Good morning, Witness.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. The Court has granted you protection measures in this case in
5 relation to your name and to your visual image. Do you understand that?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. In front of you is a piece of paper containing your name and date
8 of birth at the top. Is that correct?
9 A. It is.
10 MR. SMITH: That paper is P417.
11 Q. During your testimony, if you need to refer to your
12 uncle -- withdraw that. Does your uncle's name also appear on that piece
13 of paper?
14 A. It does.
15 Q. If you need to refer to your uncle during your testimony, do not
16 refer to his name, but just to the term "uncle."
17 A. Very well.
18 Q. Before the war, in 1992, where did you live?
19 A. I lived in Foca.
20 Q. Did you live in the town of Foca?
21 A. Not far from the centre of the town.
22 Q. And did you live in an apartment building or a house?
23 A. In a house.
24 Q. And were you married at the time?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you have any children?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And were you working?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What ethnicity are you?
6 A. Muslim.
7 Q. In 1992, were you a member of the SDA political party in Foca?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what level of involvement did you have in that party?
10 A. As a supporter of the party only.
11 Q. And were you serving in a military unit before the war commenced?
12 A. Yes. I was -- I served the Yugoslav People's Army, like all the
13 other militarily-able men.
14 Q. Were you an active soldier before the war commenced in 1992?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And what date did the war commence in Foca?
17 A. From what I can remember, it was the 7th of March, 1992.
18 Q. Are you sure that it was --
19 JUDGE HUNT: Why didn't you just lead -- I've told you so often
20 just to lead on this issue. There is no issue left -- there could be no
21 issue left as to the date upon which the war commenced in Foca. And if
22 you had done what I've asked you, you wouldn't have got such an absurd
23 answer. I can't resist saying that. I'm sorry.
24 MR. SMITH: An unexpected answer, but I take your point, Your
1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
2 MR. SMITH:
3 Q. When the war commenced, where were you staying?
4 A. I was at home.
5 Q. And what did you see when the war started? What could you
6 personally see?
7 A. I didn't see anything. I only heard the shelling when it began
8 and shots. I was at home. I didn't go out.
9 Q. Did you at one stage leave your house and go somewhere else to
10 another place?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And where did you go from your house?
13 A. My wife and I went to my mother-in-law, and we stayed in her flat.
14 Q. And why did you leave your house that day?
15 A. Because we thought it was safer down there as the flat was in the
16 town centre, and there were cellars. We were afraid of shells, and in our
17 own house, there was no cellar.
18 Q. And how long did you stay at your mother-in-law's flat?
19 A. A couple of days.
20 Q. And during that couple of days, did you see what was going on
21 around, around her flat?
22 A. No, because we never went anywhere, nor did we try to see what was
23 going on around us.
24 Q. And after that couple of days, did you leave and go to someone
25 else's house?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes. We moved to the building where my uncle lived.
2 Q. And why did you move to your uncle's house?
3 A. Because that cellar was overcrowded, there were too many people,
4 and the conditions were poor. My wife was expecting, she was pregnant,
5 and we had to leave.
6 Q. And do you remember what date -- did you -- what date did you
7 leave for your uncle's house?
8 A. I cannot remember exactly.
9 Q. And how long did you stay at your uncle's house?
10 A. Well, it could have been a week or two, perhaps.
11 Q. And what did you do whilst you were at, whilst you were at your
12 uncle's house? Did you stay there, or did you move about the town?
13 A. No, I could not move about the town because it was too dangerous.
14 We were in the house all the time; we never went out.
15 Q. And during this time period, was the house searched?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And about how many times was it searched whilst you were at your
18 uncle's house?
19 A. Twice, as far as I can remember.
20 Q. And who searched the house?
21 A. Members of the Serb army. I think they belonged to the military
23 Q. And what did they do when they searched the house, or what did
24 they say?
25 A. They were supposedly looking for weapons and, I don't know, they
1 dug the entire house -- I don't know what they were really interested in.
2 Q. And did they find any weapons at the house?
3 A. No, because we didn't have any.
4 Q. And after being at your uncle's house for one or two weeks, where
5 did you go then?
6 A. Then I went back with my wife to my father's house where I used to
7 live before.
8 Q. And why did you do that?
9 A. Because shelling had stopped and there was no danger from that
10 score, so as far as our security was concerned, it was irrelevant whether
11 we were in their house or in our house. We believed that it was better
12 for us to be in our own house because this is where we used to live and
13 this is where all of our things that we needed were.
14 Q. And how long did you stay at your own house?
15 A. Until 24th of May, 1992.
16 Q. And during the time that you were at your father's house, did you
17 see what was happening around the town?
18 A. No, because we were not allowed to move about.
19 Q. And who didn't allow you to move about the town?
20 A. It was publicly announced through a loudspeaker. There was a car
21 that circled the town with a loudspeaker, and in that manner it was
22 announced that Muslims were not allowed to move about the town.
23 Q. Was it an official car or a private car?
24 A. It was a police vehicle, a Golf, blue and white.
25 Q. Did the loudspeaker only pronounce that Muslims were not allowed
1 to move around the town or Serbs as well?
2 A. It was only forbidden to the Muslims. This is what was announced
3 through the loudspeaker.
4 Q. You said that you stayed at the house till the 24th of May. What
5 happened on the 24th of May that caused you to leave?
6 A. A military policeman came on that day and took me into the KP Dom.
7 Q. Do you know the names of the military police that took you there?
8 A. I don't remember their full names, but I know their nicknames and
9 last names.
10 Q. And what were they?
11 A. There was Drakul known as Zliko, Pikolo, a young guy named Dino
12 known as Gira, one named Miletic.
13 Q. And you've mentioned four names. Was it just four people that
14 took you to the KP Dom?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And can you describe how you were arrested?
17 A. Well, they knocked on the door. My wife came down, because we
18 lived on the first floor, she opened the door, and they asked her whether
19 there was anybody else in the house. She answered yes, me and my uncle
20 were there, and they told her to have us come down.
21 Later on, they simply looked at us, and they said they wouldn't
22 touch us, and they left, but they also told us that we were not to move
23 about, that we had to stay where we were. After a certain time, they came
24 back again and they told us to get ready, that we were going for
25 interrogation and that, after that, they would bring us back.
1 Q. And who took you to the KP Dom?
2 A. These, these people. I left in one car, which was driven by Dino,
3 and my uncle was taken in another car. They said that they needed to
4 fetch another man as well.
5 Q. Was Dino the person you referred to as Gira earlier?
6 A. Yes, Dino known as Gira.
7 Q. Did they tell you the name of the other man they said they were
8 going to fetch?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And what time did you arrive at the KP Dom on that day?
11 A. In the evening hours, just before the dark.
12 Q. And was your uncle there when you arrived?
13 A. No, I was the first one to arrive. He came after me in another
14 car, and with another man in it.
15 Q. And about how long after you arrived did your uncle and this other
16 man arrive?
17 A. Perhaps five or ten minutes.
18 Q. And what was this other man's name?
19 A. Hajro Sabanovic.
20 Q. And did you know him?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And what work did he do?
23 A. I didn't hear your question.
24 Q. And what work did he do?
25 A. I am not sure exactly, but I know that he worked in the lumber
1 factory, Maglic.
2 Q. And was he a Muslim?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Before you arrived at the KP Dom, did you see Halim Dedovic that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And where did you see him?
8 A. I saw him in the backyard of his house. Those same policemen,
9 military policemen, took him from his house as well.
10 Q. And was he taken before you were taken to the KP Dom?
11 A. They took him, but I didn't know where to.
12 Q. When your uncle and Hajro Sabanovic arrived at the KP Dom, were
13 you inside the facility or out the front?
14 A. I was outside the compound. I was standing in front of the
15 administrative building.
16 Q. And do you know who brought Hajro and your uncle to the KP Dom?
17 A. I can't remember exactly who drove that car.
18 Q. Once they arrived, what happened?
19 A. The three of us went inside, into the compound in front of the
20 administrative building, and we were told to wait.
21 Q. And how long did you wait for?
22 A. Not very long, perhaps five or six minutes.
23 Q. And who was supervising you or looking after you on the outside of
24 the KP Dom whilst you were waiting?
25 A. Can you please repeat the question?
1 Q. Other than your uncle and Hajro, who else was with you outside the
2 KP Dom whilst you were waiting?
3 A. We were waiting within the KP Dom. We were in the administrative
4 building, in the hallway.
5 Q. As you entered the administrative building, did you turn left or
6 right as you go in?
7 A. No. We waited there for five or six minutes.
8 Q. This is inside the administrative building, just after the
9 entrance; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was the lighting like inside, inside the KP Dom in this
12 entrance area?
13 A. Visibility was quite low because it was becoming dark. There was
14 no electricity, no light. And the guards that brought us in had
15 flashlights, and this is what helped them move around the hallways of the
16 administrative building.
17 Q. And when you say the guards that brought you in, who are you
18 referring to? Is it the military police that brought you or is it someone
20 A. Military police, but there were also a couple of guards who worked
21 as guards in the KP Dom.
22 Q. Whilst you were waiting in this entrance area in the
23 administration building, did you hear anything?
24 A. Yes. I heard some screams and moans coming from one of the
25 hallways of the administrative building.
1 Q. And were the screams and moans -- where were they coming from? To
2 the left of the entrance? To the hallway to the left or to the hallway to
3 the right?
4 A. It was a hallway to the left from the entrance.
5 Q. Did you recognise who these screams and moans were coming from?
6 A. Yes. The voice belonged to Halim.
7 Q. Were these screams and moans coming from the ground floor or
8 another floor?
9 A. They were coming from the ground floor.
10 Q. And about how long did this screaming and moaning last?
11 A. A few minutes.
12 Q. And whilst you were waiting in this area, did anything happen to
14 A. Zliko, Drakul, known as Zliko, threatened us. He was putting a
15 knife under our chins, on our necks, and threatening with an automatic
16 weapon. He harassed us while we were waiting there.
17 Q. Did he say anything to you specifically?
18 A. He was saying he would shoot us, kill us. He didn't say anything
20 Q. And apart from this Zliko who was there with you, was there
21 anything else there at this entrance area?
22 A. Yes. Some people were standing there, but since it was already
23 dark, we couldn't really tell who they were.
24 Q. After the screaming and the moaning ceased from Halim, what
25 happened then?
1 A. Then they came to fetch Hajro and took him along that same hallway
2 from where the screams were coming.
3 Q. Do you remember who took him?
4 A. I can't remember.
5 Q. Did you hear anything after Hajro was taken?
6 A. Yes. He started making screams, started moaning as well. That
7 means that most likely they started beating him right away.
8 Q. Do you know how long this screaming and moaning lasted for?
9 A. Same thing; perhaps five minutes, a few minutes. I can't remember
10 exactly, because I was in shock.
11 Q. And after this, what happened next?
12 A. After that, they came to get me and told me that it was my turn.
13 Q. Do you remember who came to get you?
14 A. One of those military policemen came. I can't remember which one
15 it was.
16 Q. Did he say it was simply your turn or did he further explain what
17 was going to happen to you?
18 A. No. He just said, "It's your turn. Let's go."
19 Q. And where were you taken?
20 A. I was taken along the same hallway as Hajro, and we entered a room
21 in that hallway which was on the left side.
22 Q. And what did you see when you arrived in the room?
23 A. I saw Hajro lying on the floor in blood.
24 Q. When you say he was lying on the floor in blood, where was the
1 A. On his clothes.
2 Q. And who else was in the room other than Hajro?
3 A. Those military policemen who brought us in.
4 Q. And did Hajro say anything when you came into the room?
5 A. He couldn't say anything; he was unconscious.
6 Q. You said that the other people in the room were the military
7 police that brought you in. Can you restate the names of the people that
8 were in that room of the military police?
9 A. There was Zliko, Drakul; Miletic, Pikolo; Dino, known as Gira.
10 And I think that was it, as far as I can remember.
11 Q. And what happened to you when you were brought into the room?
12 A. Well, they put me next to the wall, facing the wall. I had to
13 spread my arms and lean them against the wall, and then they also spread
14 my legs as far apart as they could.
15 Q. Did they begin to question you?
16 A. Yes. They asked me whether I was an activist, a military activist
17 of the SDA.
18 Q. And what did you say to them?
19 A. I replied that I was not an activist, that I was just a plain
20 member of that party.
21 Q. Did they ask you any other questions?
22 A. No. After that, they said, "Why are you lying?" and they started
23 beating me.
24 Q. And how did they beat you?
25 A. They hit me on the back, around kidneys, in this area here, on my
1 arms, with some kind of an object, but I couldn't tell which object,
2 because it was dark.
3 Q. About how many times were you hit?
4 JUDGE HUNT: Just a minute.
5 MR. SMITH: Sorry.
6 JUDGE HUNT: We should record where the witness was pointing to.
7 It was at his back, about halfway down his back.
8 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. About how many times were you hit?
10 A. I can't remember how many times.
11 Q. Do you know who was in fact hitting you? You mentioned who was in
12 the room, but do you know who was hitting you?
13 A. I was hit first by Zliko, Drakul. And what happened later on I
14 couldn't really tell because I was facing the wall, and also it was dark.
15 Q. Did these hits cause you any pain?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After you were hit, was someone else brought into the room?
18 A. When they stopped hitting me, they asked me again, "Why are you
19 lying?" and said they were going to bring in somebody who would confirm
20 that I was an activist in SDA. And then Halim showed up at the door.
21 Q. Did you notice anything about Halim when you saw him?
22 A. Yes. His face was swollen, bruised. He was all beaten up.
23 Q. Did Halim say anything when he came into the room?
24 A. They asked him whether I was an SDA activist, and he replied that
25 I was. And then they started hitting him again, because they asked him,
1 "Well, why are you lying?"
2 Q. About how many times was he hit?
3 A. I can't remember how many times.
4 Q. And where were they hitting him?
5 A. All over. All over his body. On his head, back, abdomen.
6 Q. Whilst this was going on, was Hajro still on the floor?
7 A. Hajro was on the floor, but at that point some of them brought a
8 bucket of water and splashed water on Hajro, and then he regained
9 consciousness. Two of them helped him get up, and as he regained
10 consciousness and started -- and was able to stand up, they started
11 hitting him again. After a certain amount of time, due to these heavy
12 blows, Hajro fell again and lost consciousness again.
13 Q. Was there any conversation going on between Hajro and the people
14 that were hitting him at that time?
15 A. No, there was no conversation.
16 Q. Do you know who hit him?
17 A. I can't remember which one of them.
18 Q. After Hajro fell to the floor again, what happened after that?
19 A. Then Halim and I were taken out into the hallway and we remained
20 waiting there. Later on, they brought in my uncle and took him inside.
21 Q. Did you see your uncle when you came out of the room?
22 A. I saw him as he was brought into the room because we were standing
23 across from the door leading into that room.
24 Q. So your uncle was brought into the same room that you had just
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you hear, hear anything in relation to your uncle from that
4 A. As he was entering the room, they said, "Don't --" one of them
5 said, "Don't beat him. He's disabled." And then they started questioning
6 him, but I didn't hear what he was asked.
7 Q. After you were taken out of the room, where were you taken?
8 A. Halim and I were waiting there in the hallway in front of that
10 Q. And how long did you wait for?
11 A. Well, perhaps five or ten minutes.
12 Q. And what happened then?
13 A. Then they took out my uncle and Hajro out of that room and took
14 them somewhere. Halim and I were taken back into the room. They locked
15 up the door, and this is where we spent the rest of the night.
16 Q. Were there any beds in this room?
17 A. No, there was just one chair there, and I sat in it the entire
18 night while Halim lay on the floor.
19 Q. Did you receive any physical injuries from your beating?
20 A. I was swollen and I had bruises from these heavy blows, but I
21 couldn't see because there was no mirror; however, I did feel a strong
22 pain in the areas where I was beaten from these heavy blows.
23 Q. And how long did these pains last?
24 A. Well, it lasted a few days. It hurt until the bruises
25 disappeared, perhaps seven to ten days. I can't remember exactly how long
1 it was.
2 Q. Did Halim have any visible injuries?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what were they?
5 A. Facial injuries, from what I could see. His face was bloody,
6 swollen. His eyes were so swollen that he could barely see. He also had
7 lacerations on his face, scars.
8 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, for the record, the witness indicated the
9 right side of his face with his hand.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
11 MR. SMITH:
12 Q. Did Hajro have any visible injuries?
13 A. I couldn't see Hajro properly because it was dark. They only used
14 their torches when they moved about, and it was only when I entered the
15 room the first time and when I saw him on the floor, it was only then that
16 I could see that his clothes were bloody.
17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this incident relates to paragraph 5.23
18 of the indictment.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
20 MR. SMITH:
21 Q. Witness, you said that you slept -- or you stayed in the room in
22 which you were beaten that night. The following day, were you taken
23 somewhere else?
24 A. Yes. They took us to another building, to an isolation cell.
25 Q. And which building was that?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. It was that building where other prisoners were.
2 Q. And who took you there?
3 A. A guard.
4 Q. And were you and Halim taken together?
5 A. Yes, they took us together and put us in the same room.
6 Q. Did anything happen on the way to that, to that isolation cell?
7 A. Yes. As we came out of that administrative building, we were led
8 away, not the one that was taking us but another guard called Burilo. We
9 had to wait for him to open the door, a heavy metal door, and as we
10 waited, he opened the door, passed behind us, and hit me twice here on the
11 nape of my neck. The pain was severe. I did not expect that blow and was
12 relaxed, so that it hurt badly.
13 And afterwards when we reached the isolation cell and I spoke to
14 Halim about that, and he told me that he had been hit too, but I never
15 noticed that. He only told me when we -- after we reached the isolation
17 Q. And do you know what Burilo was wearing that day?
18 A. He was in that KP Dom uniform, I mean that guard uniform.
19 Q. And where was he when he hit you? Was he in front of you, to the
20 side, or behind?
21 A. He was behind me.
22 Q. And do you know where this other guard was that was escorting you?
23 A. He was also behind us, but he waited, was standing to the right.
24 Q. Did he say anything to you, anything to you when he hit you,
25 before or after?
1 A. No, he did not say anything.
2 Q. Did there appear to be any reason for you to be struck that way?
3 A. There was no reason. I do not know why he hit us.
4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this incident is referred to in Schedule
5 A, number 3, and Schedule A, number 6.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 MR. SMITH:
8 Q. When you arrived in the isolation cell, was anyone else in there?
9 A. Yes. There were two other men.
10 Q. And do you know what ethnicity they were?
11 A. They were Muslims.
12 Q. And for what length of time did you spend in the isolation cell?
13 A. I stayed there until the next day.
14 Q. And there was one bed in the cell; is that correct?
15 A. Correct. There was only one bed because the isolation cell had
16 been in usage for one person only, and we were four.
17 Q. And did the four of you stay overnight in that cell?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And I assume that the three of you slept on the floor.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where were you taken to after spending the night in the isolation
23 A. The next day, they moved me to a room with other prisoners where
24 there was a large, a rather large group of prisoners.
25 Q. Do you know the number of that room?
1 A. I think it was 16. It was on the ground floor to the left from
2 the entrance.
3 Q. Was it the prisoners' building on the left-hand side or the
4 prisoners' building on the right-hand side as you look at the KP Dom from
5 the front?
6 A. That entrance was to the right. There was one to the left and
7 there was one on the right-hand side, and I was -- I went through the
8 right one as you look from the administrative building.
9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would ask that Exhibit P88 be shown to
10 the witness, please. It's the sketch of the building.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any significance that you are the only one
12 who uses this document, Mr. Smith?
13 MR. SMITH: Possibly, Your Honour. I've always liked it.
14 JUDGE HUNT: We don't.
15 A. It was this door here, and the isolation cells were here, and I
16 was in these rooms here on the ground floor of this building. So the
17 first entrance and then to the left, that's where the dormitory was where
18 they took me that day.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Can we agree that that is Room 16?
20 MR. SMITH: I think so, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Agreed, Mr. Bakrac?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
24 MR. SMITH: Thank you, we don't need the sketch any more.
25 Q. When you arrived in the room, about how many people -- the Room
1 16, how many people were in it?
2 A. I'd say some 60 or 70 in that room because there were four
3 dormitories in that room and a large anteroom, a hall, which connected
4 those dormitories.
5 Q. And whilst you were in that room, did you see anyone that had
6 suffered from some injuries?
7 A. At that time, that is, when I got there, nobody had any injuries,
8 at least, I did not see anyone with any injuries.
9 Q. How long did you stay in that room, Room 16? How many nights did
10 you spend there?
11 A. Well, I was brought there on the 24th. On the 25th, I was moved
12 there, and I left on the 7th of July, 1992.
13 Q. Apart from the time --
14 A. No. Sorry. Sorry. I was brought on the 24th; on the 25th I was
15 transferred to the isolation cell; and on the 26th I was transferred to
16 Room 16, until the 7th of July, when I left.
17 Q. And whilst you were in that room for that period of time, did you
18 notice anyone from that room with injuries, after you arrived?
19 A. Yes. Meanwhile, while I was those - how many? - forty days or
20 something. So during my stay there, they took two men to the
21 administrative building and they stayed there for about two hours, were
22 beaten there, and then they came back again to the room and they had
23 injuries on their bodies.
24 Q. And what were these two men's names?
25 A. One of them was Mandzo. His last name was Mandzo. And the other
1 one was Dzanko or Dzano, called Kalebic.
2 Q. Is Kalebic a nickname or a proper first name?
3 A. Nickname.
4 Q. Do you know what the first name was, this Dzano or Dzanko?
5 A. It escapes me.
6 Q. You said that two men -- these two men were taken to the
7 administrative building. Did you see them taken out to the administrative
8 building or did you only discover that later?
9 A. I saw it through the window, through the window of our dormitory,
10 because one could see the entrance into the administrative building.
11 Q. And you said that "they took them to the administrative
12 building." Who are you referring to? Who was "they"?
13 A. That they were taken away by, a guard. A guard came to take them
14 and took them.
15 Q. And what was the guard wearing?
16 A. That blue guard uniform.
17 Q. Do you know the name of the guard?
18 A. I don't remember who it was.
19 Q. And you said that these two men came back two hours later to your
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you hear or see or know what was happening to them during that
23 two hours?
24 A. I don't know. All I remember is that when they returned to the
25 room, they had severe injuries, but I cannot remember what had happened in
1 the meantime while they were downstairs.
2 Q. You've made a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in
3 December 1998 about this incident. Have you had an opportunity to read
4 that statement before coming to Court?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In that statement, it states that when these two men were taken
7 out, you heard screaming and moaning coming from the administration
8 building. Is that correct? Did you hear screaming and moaning? Or is
9 that not correct?
10 A. I can't remember right now.
11 Q. When these two men came back to the administration -- came back to
12 Room 16, did you notice anything about Mandzo?
13 A. Mandzo had difficulty walking, and when he returned to the room,
14 he lay down on the bed and showed us the soles of his feet, and that was a
15 horrible sight, because they had taken his shoes off and beaten him on the
16 soles. So his feet were swollen, there were cuts on his soles. And the
17 other one, nicknamed Kalebic, had a cut on his face. I can't remember
18 exactly whether it was here, whether it was on the right or left lower
19 part of the cheek, but there was a cut. And he said that while they were
20 downstairs, somebody had kicked him with a military boot, and he said that
21 his skin had burst from that kick. And it was a terrible sight, and he
22 bled a lot.
23 Q. Did he get any treatment for that cut?
24 A. No. No, there was no treatment. We had -- there was with us a
25 physician, a surgeon, and he found an ordinary needle and some thread and
1 managed to suture it a bit.
2 Q. And in relation to Mandzo, you said that the soles of his feet
3 were swollen and had a lot of cuts. Did you notice anything else about
4 him in terms of injuries?
5 A. Yes. He had bruises on his face and was swollen.
6 Q. You said that Mr. Dzano or Dzanko stated that he was kicked,
7 kicked in the face. Did he tell you who kicked him?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did he say why he was beaten?
10 A. No, he did not tell me that.
11 Q. Did Mandzo tell you who beat him?
12 A. No. He said nothing.
13 Q. Did these injuries have any effect on Mandzo in terms of his
14 ability to move about?
15 A. True. He could not go to the canteen, to the kitchen for his
16 meals for a couple of days, and it was only after a few days, when he
17 recovered a little, that he could go to the kitchen, helped by others
18 again, to eat something.
19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this incident is related in Schedule B-18
20 and Schedule B-37.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
22 MR. SMITH:
23 Q. During the time that you spent in Room 16, apart from these two,
24 was there anyone else that you noticed that suffered from injuries?
25 A. Yes. There was another one who was also taken to the
1 administrative building, and he spent seven days there. His name was Zaim
2 Cedic. And he also came back with injuries on his face and had also been
4 Q. The first time that you knew that Zaim Cedic was beaten, is that
5 when he arrived back in the room?
6 A. Yes, when he returned to the room.
7 Q. Did you see him being taken away from the room?
8 A. I don't remember that moment.
9 Q. How did you know that he spent seven days in the administration
11 A. That is, I mean, what other prisoners said, that he was there for
12 seven days.
13 Q. And what injuries did you see on Mr. Cedic?
14 A. His face was all black and blue and swollen.
15 Q. And did he say who beat him?
16 A. I did not talk about it with him.
17 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this incident is referred to in B-11.
18 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were detainees taken out and, to
19 your knowledge, not seen alive again?
20 A. Yes. Whilst I was there, some 25 or 26 men were taken away, and
21 they never returned, at least while I was there.
22 Q. And how were you able to be sure of such a figure like that?
23 A. Well, because we counted them when they took them away, and they
24 were taking them away in threesomes or foursomes.
25 Q. Did you see all of these 25 or 26 leave, or only some of them?
1 A. We saw all of them, because it usually happened in the evening
2 hours, after dinner, a little before nightfall, so that we could see them.
3 Q. And how would you know when to look to see whether people were
4 being taken away?
5 A. Well, somebody would see them through the window and let others
6 know. Or the guard would come with the list and call out their names, so
7 three or four men would go -- would follow the guard out, and then we
8 would know what it was all about.
9 Q. And where would you look to see them taken out? From what
11 A. We would stand by the windows in the dormitories and see them
12 being taken away.
13 Q. About over how many days or how many times did you see these
14 people taken away? You said they were in groups of about three or four.
15 How often did you see these people be taken towards the administrative
17 A. It lasted for about two weeks, that is, it happened after dinner.
18 Now, I cannot remember if it was every second night or every third night,
19 but it was at that time in June, in early June, sometime in early June
20 during that fortnight. It was at that time that those 25 or so men were
21 taken out in groups.
22 Q. And can you be more specific about who was, who was escorting them
23 towards the administrative building? I think you said "guards" earlier.
24 A. They were guards in blue uniforms.
25 Q. Do you know the name of any of these guards?
1 A. Well, I can't remember who exactly took whom when.
2 Q. Do you remember any of the names of the detainees that were taken
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If you can think of all of the names that you saw taken out, and
6 then we'll just discuss each one individually. Who were some of the
7 people you saw were taken out and didn't return whilst you were at the KP
9 A. I cannot recall all the names, but yes, I can, some of them. They
10 were Halim Konjo; Nurko Nisic; Munib Veiz; then another Veiz, I don't know
11 his first name; and Kemo Isanovic was another one in that group, in those
12 groups; then Cedic; and then -- no, I can't remember it now.
13 Q. Did you provide some further names in your statement that you've
14 given the Office of the Prosecutor?
15 A. Yes. And there are other names, too, but I cannot remember them
16 right now.
17 Q. I'll mention the further names that you provided in your
18 statement, and if you can tell me whether you remember of them being taken
19 out. Kruno Marinovic?
20 A. Kruno Marinovic, yes.
21 Q. Kemal Dzelilovic?
22 A. Kemal Dzelilovic.
23 Q. Husein Rikalo?
24 A. Husein Rikalo, yes.
25 Q. And a person with the surname Matovic, a Croat?
1 A. Matovic, yes.
2 Q. Emir Prasto?
3 A. Emir Prasto, true.
4 Q. And Mehmed Pasalic?
5 A. Pasalic, yes.
6 Q. And a person with the surname Selinovic?
7 A. Selinovic.
8 Q. Do you know whether a Selinovic was taken out in the manner that
9 you described just a moment ago?
10 A. Like all the others.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, there is a problem with the answer to one
12 of those. Perhaps you should ask him specifically whether all of the
13 names that you read out to him were taken out.
14 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. All of the names that I just read out, were they taken out in this
16 period in the manner that you described?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you see these people, the people that I've just mentioned, did
19 you see them being taken out?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there anyone that I mentioned that you didn't see be taken out?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And the people that you mentioned that were taken out, when I
24 initially asked you to remember the names, did you see them be taken out,
25 or did you hear that they were taken out?
1 A. I saw them being taken out.
2 Q. Once you said that you saw Halim Konjo be taken out. After he was
3 taken out, did you hear anything?
4 A. Yes. Yes, when he entered the administrative building, a few
5 minutes later, screams began and one could hear blows and cries for help,
6 and I recognised his voice. I knew that it was he they were beating.
7 Q. You said you heard screams. Did you hear him say anything, say
8 any words?
9 A. I did not distinguish any words.
10 Q. And Nurko Nisic, when you saw him taken out, did you hear anything
11 after that?
12 A. Yes. Again, when they took him in, blows began and screams, and I
13 could hear some words, somebody say, "Nurko, die. What are you waiting
14 for? Why don't you die?"
15 Q. And how long did this beating appear to go on for? How long did
16 you hear the sounds coming from the beating?
17 A. I cannot remember that exactly because we were all terrified
18 because we were all stressed, in shock, so I can't tell you how long it
19 went on.
20 Q. And Kruno Marinovic, who was he? What job did he have before the
22 A. He was a radio and TV repairman, and he was also a correspondent
23 of a Croatian newspaper, a journalist.
24 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I believe it is about 11.00.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Even from our view, the clock says 11.00 this time,
1 Mr. Smith.
2 MR. SMITH: That's a first, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30.
4 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: We're grateful for the copy of that document filed by
7 the Prosecution; in fact, my secretary found the copy that had been sent
8 up and had been wrongly filed. We've read it. When would be a convenient
9 time to deal with it, now or when the witness is finished?
10 MR. SMITH: Probably when the witness is finished, Your Honour,
11 because I think Ms. Kuo would address that.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, right. All right.
13 Then we'll deal with it later, Mr. Bakrac.
14 MR. SMITH:
15 Q. Witness, we were previously discussing before the break the people
16 that were taken out from their rooms and taken to the administration
17 building and, to your knowledge, never been seen again.
18 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he mentioned Halim Konjo and Nurko
19 Nisic. Halim Konjo is referred to at B-33 and C-13 of the schedules.
20 Nurko Nisic is referred at C-19. And we've just spoken about a Kruno
21 Marinovic, and he's referred to as C-17.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
23 MR. SMITH:
24 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you saw a Kemo Dzelilovic being taken
25 to the administration building. Did you know him before the war?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I didn't hear the name of the person you were referring to.
2 Q. Kemo Dzelilovic.
3 A. Yes, I knew him.
4 Q. And how old was he and what work did he do?
5 A. He was an educator, a teacher, and he was about 35 or 40 years old
6 at the time.
7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he's referred to as B-19 and C-7.
8 Q. You also mentioned a Husein Rikalo. Did you know him before you
9 came to the KP Dom?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How old was he and what work did he do?
12 A. He was an electrician, and at the time he was about 30 or 35.
13 MR. SMITH: He's referred to at B-46, C-21. He mentioned, Your
14 Honour, a Munib Veiz, and he's referred to at B-59 and C-28. He mentioned
15 him earlier as being taken out.
16 Q. You mentioned a Munib Veiz was taken out, and you also said
17 another person with the surname Veiz was taken out. Do you know that
18 person's first name?
19 A. I can't remember his first name, but he was a policeman, worked as
20 a policeman.
21 Q. And did he relate to Munib Veiz, as far as you know?
22 A. I don't know whether they were relatives. I don't know.
23 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, a Zulfo Veiz is referred to at C-29. It
24 may be that person.
25 Q. Witness, you also mentioned that a Matovic, a Croat, was taken out
1 towards the administrative building. Do you know the person's first name?
2 A. I don't. I only know the last name.
3 Q. And did you know him from before the war?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what work did he do and how old was he?
6 A. He worked as a medical technician and he was about 30 years old.
7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, Matovic is referred to at B-39.
8 Q. You mentioned you saw Emir Prasto [phoen] being taken out.
9 A. Emir Frasto.
10 Q. What work did he do and how old was he?
11 A. He was -- he is probably my age, so he was probably 26 or 27 at
12 the time, and he sold fruits and vegetables on the market, and for a while
13 he also leased out -- he used to lease out a cafe called Derby.
14 Q. You said you saw Kemo Isanovic be taken out to the administrative
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How old was he, and what work did he do before the war?
18 A. He was a waiter before the war in a restaurant called Amadeus. He
19 worked as a waiter in his relative's restaurant, and he was about 20
20 something, 25.
21 MR. SMITH: This person is referred to at B-30.
22 Q. You mentioned a Mehmed Pasalic was taken out towards the
23 administration building. What work --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What work did he do, and how old was he?
1 A. He was about 35, 40, and as far as I can remember, he was a
2 salesman, involved in sales prior to the war.
3 MR. SMITH: He is referred to at B-43.
4 Q. You also mentioned a Selinovic was taken out towards the
5 administration building, but you didn't mention a first name. Do you know
6 his first name?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. And what work did he do, and how old was he?
9 A. I don't know what his profession was, and as far as his age at the
10 time is concerned, like everybody else, about 35 or 40.
11 Q. And did you know him from before the war?
12 A. Well, from passing. We were not really friends.
13 Q. And where did he live?
14 A. Somewhere in town. I don't know exactly where.
15 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, at B-50 in the schedules there's a
16 "Selimovic" referred to. The witness has mentioned "Selinovic." It may
17 or may not be the same person, but I just point that out.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 MR. SMITH:
20 Q. And you also mentioned a person with the surname Cedic be taken
21 out towards the administration building. And do you know the person's
22 first name?
23 A. I don't know the first name, but his nickname was Ekinda.
24 Q. You mentioned earlier that you saw a Zaim Cedic in your room with
25 injuries that he received. Is that Zaim Cedic, is that the same person as
1 Ekinda, or is it different?
2 A. No, it's a totally different person.
3 Q. Was Zaim Cedic still at the KP Dom when you left, do you know?
4 A. Yes, he remained there after me.
5 Q. And also you mentioned a Mr. Mandzo and Hasan Dzano or Hasan
6 Dzanko who you saw their injuries in your room. Were they still there
7 when you left the KP Dom?
8 A. Yes, they remained there after me.
9 Q. Before the break, you stated that when Nurko Nisic was taken
10 towards the administration building, shortly after you heard the sound of
11 him screaming and you believed he was being beaten at that stage, and you
12 also said that you heard Halim Konjo's voice as he was being beaten after
13 he was taken to the administration building. Of any of the other people
14 that you saw taken out, did you hear any of them particularly screaming or
16 A. You mean was I able to recognise their voices? Is that what you
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes, I remember the last individual we mentioned, Cedic, known as
20 Ekinda, I recognised his voice when he was beaten.
21 Q. Now, you mentioned that these 25 or 26 people were taken out over
22 a two- to three-week period in June. You stated that they were taken out
23 in groups of three or four, and you've stated they were taken out at about
25 Of the people, the other people that were taken out, of the names
1 that you have mentioned, you didn't particularly hear their voices as they
2 were being beaten, did you hear anything, after these other people were
3 taken out, coming from the administration building?
4 A. Well, I heard voices, but only -- I only recognised the voices of
5 these three persons. I told you it was in the evening hours, at dusk,
6 after dinner.
7 Q. On the other occasions, the occasions when you couldn't recognise
8 the voices, what did you hear?
9 A. I heard screaming and moaning, just like with all others that were
10 beaten up.
11 Q. And did this happen after every group was taken out into the
12 administration building, or just some of them or most of them? Can you
14 A. There would always be screaming and moaning. That would follow --
15 that would come after each group entered the administrative building. I
16 don't know if all of them were beaten, only some of them were beaten. I
17 couldn't see that.
18 Q. What was the atmosphere, the atmosphere like at the KP Dom whilst
19 these beatings were going on? How did you feel?
20 A. I was in a state of shock. The fear was among the inmates. None
21 of us could talk about it. We all felt lost. I don't know how to
22 describe this feeling to you. It was simply a great shock to us. We
23 never knew who would be the next one to be taken out, whether it would be
24 me or somebody else, so it was a time of waiting.
25 Q. Did you or anyone you know of make complaints to the guards as to
1 what was going on at this time?
2 A. I personally didn't, and I doubt that anybody else did because we
3 were not allowed to talk to the guards. It was forbidden to us.
4 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know who the warden was?
5 A. I heard from other inmates that it was Krnojelac, Milorad.
6 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac from before the war?
7 A. Yes. He was my math teacher.
8 Q. Did you see him in the KP Dom whilst you were detained?
9 A. I never saw him, not once.
10 Q. You mentioned that you heard from other detainees that he was the
11 warden. Do you remember any specific name of a detainee that told you
13 A. I can't remember, but we would normally hear it when we talked
14 amongst ourselves. There were a lot of inmates there, so I can't really
15 remember that.
16 Q. Before you were arrested and taken to the KP Dom on the 26th of
17 May, did you know who the warden of the KP Dom was?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness stated that he heard from
21 other inmates that Milorad Krnojelac was the warden, and there is no way
22 he could have seen other inmates before he came to KP Dom.
23 JUDGE HUNT: But the answer which he gave doesn't limit that to
24 his knowledge. He says he was told by the other detainees. He's now
25 being asked did he have any knowledge of that before he went into the KP
1 Dom. I would think the answer is probably as you suggested, but it
2 doesn't stop the Prosecution from asking it.
3 You go ahead, Mr. Smith.
4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Did you know who the warden was of the KP Dom before you were
7 A. I wasn't sure of it. There were stories, rumours in town, but the
8 first official information I received was the one I received at the KP
9 Dom, from inmates. Because there were stories circulating the town,
10 indicating that he was the warden even prior to me going to KP Dom.
11 Q. And who did you hear these stories from?
12 A. When I talked to my wife, she told me. I don't know who she heard
13 it from.
14 Q. Do you know who the supervisor of the guards was whilst you were
15 at KP Dom?
16 A. Mitar Rasevic.
17 Q. Did you know him from before the war?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see him whilst you were at the KP Dom?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. About on how many occasions did you see him?
22 A. I saw him for the first time when I was in the isolation cell.
23 The door was open that morning and he was standing at the door, and that
24 was the first time I saw him. And then afterwards I would see him, I
25 don't know how many times, but I would normally see him as he was passing
1 through the compound of KP Dom.
2 Q. And the morning that you saw him, the morning that you saw him
3 when you were in the isolation cell, was that when you were put in the
4 isolation cell or was it the day later, when you left the isolation cell?
5 A. That was on the following day, when I left the isolation cell.
6 Q. And did he say anything to you on that day?
7 A. He asked me why I was there.
8 Q. And what did you tell him?
9 A. I said, "Well, why do you ask me? I don't know," because I myself
10 don't know.
11 Q. What was -- what would Mitar Rasevic wear when you saw him at the
12 KP Dom?
13 A. Like all other guards, he had a blue uniform on him.
14 Q. And whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you know a Savo Todovic?
15 A. I can't remember right now. The name sounds familiar, but I can't
17 Q. You've told the Court that you were released from the KP Dom on
18 the 7th of July, 1992. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You arrived at the KP Dom: Halim Dedovic, Hajro Sabanovic, and
21 your uncle. Do you know what happened to each of them?
22 A. Hajro and Halim never returned, as far as I know, and my uncle was
23 released that same year. I'm not sure which month it was, whether it was
24 August or September. I'm not quite sure. But it was that same year,
1 Q. You said that Halim and Hajro never returned. Were they still in
2 the KP Dom when you were released?
3 A. Yes. They remained there after me.
4 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever told by anyone in
5 authority why you were being detained there?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you ever advised of your right of having your detention
9 A. I was never told this by anyone.
10 Q. And whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever charged with any
12 A. I didn't discuss it with anybody.
13 Q. And can you explain the circumstances of your release? How were
14 you released?
15 A. On that 7th of July of 1992, sometime in the morning, a guard came
16 and called out my name. I went out with him and we went to the entrance,
17 into the administrative building. He told me to wait there for the papers
18 to be ready and then he told me, "You are released. You'll go home." I
19 waited there for some five or ten minutes. The doors opened once again,
20 and then when I went through the hallway in that administrative building,
21 so when I went through it and through another door, I came out and I saw
22 my wife waiting there, and then I realised that this was really
23 happening. Because prior to that, I simply didn't believe in what he was
24 saying; I thought I was just being taken away like all the others were.
25 Q. Did your wife bring a document to the KP Dom to organise your
2 A. Yes. She managed to obtain a document through some friends, this
3 releasing document, and I was released based on that.
4 Q. Did she tell you who she obtained the document from?
5 A. This document was signed by Dr. Mandic, and it had three more
6 signatures there by Koprivica, Starovic, and a third one was something
7 starting with a "V." I believe it was Vladicic.
8 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I could ask the usher to show the
9 witness P418.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Is it necessary? It's in evidence already. He
11 doesn't have to identify it. I'm just trying to save time.
12 MR. SMITH: Perhaps just in relation to the signatures.
13 JUDGE HUNT: All right.
14 MR. SMITH: We have a copy here.
15 Q. You mentioned that the signature of Dr. Mandic was on this
16 document. Where does that signature appear? On the left-hand side or the
17 right-hand side?
18 A. It's on the right-hand side.
19 Q. Have you seen Dr. Mandic's signature before or have you been told
20 that that's his signature?
21 A. I was told this. I never saw his signature prior to this.
22 Q. And who told you that was his signature on the right-hand side?
23 A. Well, his signature is there, and when I came out and talked to my
24 wife, she explained to me how it came that I was released and who had to
25 sign the document for me to be released, and that was him; he was that
2 Q. And did she also explain to you that the other three that you've
3 mentioned that signed the document were the ones that signed the
4 document? Did she tell you that or did you find that out some other way?
5 A. She told me that, because she was well informed about this.
6 Q. And do you know who Dr. Mandic was at that time, what position he
8 A. Well, in further conversations with my wife, she told me that he
9 was a member of the SDS Crisis Staff and, based on what she knew, he was
10 the person in charge, the person who decided on life or death of inmates.
11 Q. In that document it states that you had an obligation to report to
12 the police station in the Serb municipality of Foca. When you left, did
13 you report to the police station daily?
14 A. No, because as soon as I was released, we left Foca; we went
15 away. We didn't dare remain there.
16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
18 Cross-examination. Mr. Bakrac.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
21 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I'm Mihajlo Bakrac and I'm one of the
22 counsel for the accused Krnojelac.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. I should first like to ask you to pause a little after you hear my
25 question, before you answer, in order to make the job of the interpreters
1 slightly easier and to avoid overlapping the questions and answers.
2 You just replied when asked by my learned friend -- or rather, you
3 said sometime this morning that before your arrest, that is, between the
4 outbreak of the armed conflict and the arrest, you, to all intents and
5 purposes, spent all that time in the house, that is, inside, either in the
6 house or in the cellar. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And who else was with you there? Your wife and who else?
9 A. I don't know which place you have in mind because during those
10 several days we moved from -- to about two or three different places.
11 Q. Were other Muslims with you?
12 A. In my house, while we were in my house, there were, yes, Muslims.
13 At the time when we were in my mother-in-law's cellar, there were Muslims,
14 too. When we were in the cellar of my relative, there were also -- there
15 were both Muslims and Serbs.
16 Q. Were they also staying in the cellar or moving about the town?
17 A. At that time, during the shelling, they were in the cellar with
19 Q. And when the shelling stopped, if I understood you well, you and
20 your wife went back to a flat and did not leave it until the military
21 police came after you?
22 A. I stayed in that building, in my relative's flat, for a few days
23 more, and then when the shelling stopped, I went back home.
24 Q. Then tell us, how is it possible that you knew the rumours that
25 went around the town? You first said that you heard from other detainees
1 who was the warden, and when asked again by the Prosecutor, you then said
2 that you may have heard stories which circulated the town. So how could
3 you hear those stories which went around the town if you were inside all
4 the time?
5 A. Well, when we went back to -- went back home, then my wife would
6 go out now and then to get some supplies or get whatever we needed, and
7 she would then drop by her mother or by this relative again, and there
8 were always rumours which spread among people. Some bit of news would
9 always leak from somewhere; I don't know from where.
10 Q. And did her mother dare go out? You say she went to visit her
11 mother, but did she dare go out? Because you told us Muslims were
12 prohibited from going out.
13 A. Yes. It was prohibited, but at great peril to herself she
14 nevertheless had to go out from time to time. Her mother did not go
15 around the town because we were afraid because she was in poor health.
16 Q. Well, then, how could she hear the rumours around the town?
17 A. I don't know who she learned it from.
18 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in your statement to the OTP
19 investigators, you said that before the armed conflict, the SDA had
20 already taken over the executive post in the municipality?
21 A. In that statement, I did say "take over," but I did not mean all
22 the executive posts because, before the democratic elections, most of the
23 executive posts were in the hands of people of Serb ethnicity.
24 Q. I didn't really understand what you said. Is it correct that you
25 said that the SDA had taken over the executive posts in the town?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes, but you did not let me finish. I did say that, but I did not
2 mean that they had taken over literally all the executive posts in the
4 Q. Then did you mean that they had taken over the majority of
5 executive posts in the town?
6 A. Yes. By that, I meant that they had taken over a large number of
7 executive posts because, owing to the votes they got in the elections,
8 they became entitled to a larger number of executive posts.
9 Q. Is it also correct that you told the OTP investigators that
10 following the elections in 1991, ethnic intolerance began to emerge, to be
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Is it also true that you told the OTP investigators
14 that there were Muslim military units in Foca?
15 A. I don't recall that.
16 Q. I shall then read out to you only one sentence from the statement
17 that you made, if that is correct, and I see that the Prosecutor also
18 refers to it, on the 2nd of December, 1998. Did you give a statement to
19 the OTP on that date?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. "In Foca there were some Muslim armed units, but without strict,
22 rigid, formal organisation. I did not try to organise anything or defend
24 A. To the best of my recollection, those were groups of men who were
25 not organised in any significant military formations.
1 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in that same statement, right after
2 this, you said that, "Dedovic had told the military police, when
3 pressured, that I was a member of the SDA and commander of Muslim armed
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the day when you arrived in the KP
7 Dom, or rather, the evening when you got there, and you said that the
8 military police interrogated you. I would merely like to clarify whether
9 it was the night between the 24th and 25th of May or between the 25th and
10 the 26th of May.
11 A. They brought me that evening, so it was the 24th, and it was that
12 night, between the 24th and the 25th of May.
13 Q. And the next night, between the 25th and the 26th of May, you
14 spent in the isolation cell, is it?
15 A. In the isolation cell.
16 Q. Thank you. You said that on that occasion when you were brought
17 there and when you were interrogated, that at that time there was no
18 electricity in the KP Dom. Was it a frequent occurrence for the KP Dom, I
19 mean, to be without lights?
20 A. When I was there during I don't know how many days, there was no
21 electricity at all, at least, in our dormitories. As far as I can
22 remember, down there -- well, I don't know that, but be that as it may, in
23 our dormitories, we never had any lights.
24 Q. But what you told us about, told us that happened, happened in the
25 administrative building.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.
2 Q. This place where you were interrogated, that is, the
3 administrative building, and it is without electricity, too, wasn't it?
4 A. When I was brought there, that night there was no electricity. It
5 was dark.
6 Q. But was there any electricity, any lights in the compound?
7 A. I don't think so.
8 Q. Thank you. After that interrogation, were you ever beaten again
9 or struck again or mistreated in any way during your stay in the KP Dom?
10 A. You mean after that first night?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No, never.
13 Q. Is it correct that you told the OTP investigators that, during
14 your detention, there were 500 detainees in the KP Dom altogether?
15 A. According to my calculations.
16 Q. Did you also say that a doctor called Cedo Dragovic regularly paid
17 visits to the prison, and you also added that he never treated beaten
18 prisoners, he also administered medicines to those with heart conditions?
19 A. Yes, Cedo would come and give medicines to heart patients, but
20 those who had sustained injuries during beatings, he never extended any
21 medical aid to them.
22 Q. Thank you. I shall now ask you with reference to persons we
23 mentioned and about whom you told us they were taken away and never
24 returned, and I shall ask you to tell me to the best of your recollection
25 what rooms were they taken from and, if you can remember, the dates.
1 Halim Konjo.
2 A. Halim Konjo, I don't know the number of the room in that building,
3 but if I had a drawing, then I could show you which room he was in.
4 Q. I think it will suffice if you tell us, since you don't know the
5 number of the room, whether it was in the left or right wing of the
7 A. Halim Konjo was in the left wing of the building.
8 Q. Do you know the date when he was taken out, if you can remember
10 A. I don't remember the date.
11 Q. Emir Frasto, which room was he in, and do you know the date when
12 he was taken away?
13 A. He was also in the left wing of the building. I don't remember
14 the dates of any of those departures.
15 Q. Munib Veiz, what room was he taken from?
16 A. He was also in the left wing of the building.
17 Q. But you don't know the number of the room, do you?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. And the second Veiz whose first name you can't remember, what room
20 was he taken from?
21 A. He was also in the left wing of the building.
22 Q. And you don't know the date?
23 A. I can't give you any date, because I simply do not remember any of
24 the dates when they were taken away.
25 Q. Kemal Isanovic, which room was he taken out from?
1 A. The left part of the building.
2 Q. Nurko Nisic?
3 A. Left wing of the building.
4 Q. Mehmed Pasalic?
5 A. Left wing.
6 Q. Kruno Marinovic?
7 A. Left wing.
8 Q. Matovic?
9 A. Likewise.
10 Q. You mean the left wing of the building?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Husein Rikalo?
13 A. Left wing of the building.
14 Q. Kemo Dzelilovic?
15 A. Left wing.
16 Q. Selimovic?
17 A. He also came from the left wing.
18 Q. Cedic?
19 A. Cedic was also from the left wing.
20 Q. Is it correct that you told OTP investigators in your statement of
21 3rd and 4th May, 1995 that:
22 "We could see who was coming in and out of the administrative
23 building but we could not see what was going on inside since the windows
24 of the administrative building were opaque"?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Did you also say in your statement to the OTP the
3 "The windows on the front side, which faced the administrative
4 building, the windows of the prisoners' quarters, had window panes painted
5 over so we could not see them"?
6 A. No, we could not see them because they were painted over, but
7 there were other windows on the right-hand side of the room through which
8 one could also see the door leading to the administrative building.
9 Q. But here you said that the window panes were painted over and that
10 you could not see anything through them. You did not explain that there
11 were some other windows through which you could see.
12 A. The windows on that lower part of the building were painted; and
13 the windows on the right-hand side of the dormitory, of the rooms, were
14 not painted, and through them one could see.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really avoided
16 showing any ground plans, but perhaps it would be useful if the witness
17 told us which windows he has in mind, that is, which windows he says were
18 transparent. To speed matters up, I will give him our copy.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Which -- have you got the six --
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the same copy that
21 Mr. Smith used to show it. I don't know simply if it is marked -- yes,
22 that is right.
23 JUDGE HUNT: To assist the transcript, I think I breached my own
24 injunction and spoke over Mr. Bakrac, but I referred to Exhibit 88.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Will you please show us, then, those right-hand windows.
2 A. Here, on this side of the building, which could not be drawn
3 here. So there, on this side of the building. If you stand here, then
4 they're on the left-hand side, but if you look from the building, then
5 it's on the right-hand side. So these windows overlook this part here.
6 What do you mean?
7 Q. The prisoners' quarters. You told us that the windows across the
8 administrative building were opaque, but from these windows, those windows
9 which faced the building on the left-hand side were transparent and we
10 could see through them.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is showing -- the witness
12 is pointing at, if I may call it that, annex B of the prisoners' quarters,
13 the windows which cannot be seen on this drawing and which overlook annex
14 A and the left part of the building. He also pointed at the -- he also
15 said that the windows in annex A which face the administrative building
16 had been painted over.
17 Q. Will you please now show, if we are in front of annex A and look
18 at the right-hand windows and the right wing of the building, were those
19 windows painted over too?
20 A. Could you repeat the question? Where? If I stand where?
21 Q. If you stand in front of the prison itself.
22 A. You mean here?
23 Q. No. A little bit to the right. So to the right of this annex.
24 You now showed us the left one, which overlooks A, but I mean the right
25 wing, which overlooks the furniture factory.
1 A. So you mean if I stand here, is it?
2 Q. Yes. Windows which overlook the furniture factory. You know the
3 furniture factory is number 7.
4 A. Yes, correct.
5 Q. So windows overlooking that, were those windows painted over?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were the windows next to the right-hand entrance into the
8 building, into the prison, painted over?
9 A. You mean these windows here? Yes, these were small windows,
10 windows where isolation cells were.
11 Q. And the windows to the left?
12 A. The windows to the left were the windows of the passage which was
13 in the part with the lavatories, with toilets.
14 Q. And windows on the upper floor?
15 A. Windows on the upper floor I don't remember because I never stayed
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We don't need the sketch
19 Q. Is it correct that you told the OTP investigators in your
20 statement of the 2nd of December, 1998, that is, in your latter statement,
21 that you said that, during your detention, a man in a camouflage
22 olive-green/grey colour entered the room in which you were kept?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you told OTP investigators that you
25 never heard any shots, only blows and screams?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You mentioned the names of three men who signed, in addition to
3 Dr. Mandic, your discharge, your release document. And in the statement
4 that you made to the OTP, to which you referred just now, you said that
5 the release certificate was signed by Dr. Mandic and three other persons
6 from the KP Dom.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So why didn't you say then that it was those three persons, since
9 today you told us that you had been told that by your wife after you left?
10 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you repeat it?
11 Q. Why didn't you say the OTP investigators in 1998, which were those
12 three names? Why did you say only three more persons from the KP Dom?
13 A. Well, I suppose because they never asked me who it was.
14 Q. And tell me only if you stated that the military police was under
15 the command of the military authorities. Did you say that to OTP
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr. Smith?
22 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. You may now leave. Thank you for
24 giving evidence. Wait till the blinds have been lowered on that side of
25 the courtroom so that you may leave without the public being able to
1 identify you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I would have to address a very urgent
7 procedural matter that just raised today right now. We received a message
8 in relation to the Witness 49 who is going to testify, who was supposed to
9 be going to testify through videolink conference next Tuesday, and we just
10 received the message that this person, because of his poor health, is now
11 in hospital and underwent operation two days ago, and he is not able to
12 come and testify on the date we had thought he would. And we have
13 contacted the son of this witness, and he said his father is -- has to
14 stay in the hospital for some more time, and he thinks it would be
15 probably two weeks.
16 JUDGE HUNT: How would that affect the prospect of the Prosecution
17 case finishing before he's available?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: When it is actually two weeks only, then we
19 do not have a problem at all; but if it is not possible and the health
20 conditions are so bad, we consider then to simply strike him from the
22 JUDGE HUNT: You realise, of course, that to fix another date,
23 there is a certain leadup time required. I gather on this particular
24 occasion, because fair warning had been given in advance, it took less
25 time to arrange than it usually does. So you'd better be in touch with
1 the registry about it. The moment you believe that there is another date
2 that he will be available, you should notify the registry to start making
3 arrangements, even before coming to the Trial Chamber to get another
5 Now, you can lift the blinds, thanks. We're going to deal with a
6 procedural matter.
7 Is that all you want to say about that particular matter?
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: We will cancel the order that the videolink be heard
10 on Tuesday, and we're very grateful to the people who arranged it for
11 doing so, even though they'll probably be very unhappy to hear that their
12 efforts have been wasted.
13 Now, about the application by the Defence for psychological
14 examination of the accused, we've read all of the documents. This is
15 yours, is it, Ms. Kuo?
16 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not quite sure what the Prosecution is attempting
18 to say in paragraph 4 of its further response. We had invited you to ask
19 for your own expert to be appointed, and obviously that will be granted;
20 but you then go on to say that you are going to wait until the registry
21 appoints its expert as it is possible that the Prosecution will agree to
22 the registrar's expert without need to engage the services of a third
23 psychologist. I think that there is no need to have three psychologists.
24 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. We spoke with the representative in
25 the registrar's office to find out who, who among the sort of certified
1 doctors would be available to be appointed, and we were informed that we
2 would have no choice, that it was not up to the Prosecution to decide,
3 that the registrar would simply appoint someone.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'd better tell the registry that they'll
5 do what we say, and if we say the Prosecution may choose one, they will be
6 entitled to choose one. And it's quite absurd for anybody down there to
7 suggest otherwise.
8 MS. KUO: I can certainly convey that, Your Honour, but this is
9 simply what we were told. And in light of, what we thought would be the
10 wisest thing, because we also think three is probably too much, is to wait
11 to see whom the registrar on their own choice, and if we thought that was
12 an appropriate person, then we would simply not ask for another person.
13 Now, if the Court wishes us, then, to tell the registrar that we
14 would simply in the first instance choose, we're certainly happy to do
15 that, it's just that we were told by the registrar we were not really in a
17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you can tell whoever it was down in the
18 registrar's that if they have some problems with what we're proposing,
19 they can come and talk to us. It is far simpler in anything like this for
20 there to be an expert appointed on either side who are both present, who
21 can have competing views, perhaps, which will then be presented to the
22 Court if the material becomes relevant. But the idea of a Court-appointed
23 expert is appropriate in some cases, but we do not ourselves see that it
24 is appropriate in this case.
25 I think the registry, whoever it is down there, may have
1 misunderstood the situation, to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I
2 do sometimes wonder who they think are running these trials.
3 Well, now, if we then give you the right to choose an expert, then
4 you will choose somebody perhaps from the list, or do you want somebody
5 else who also speaks the language and comes from the former Yugoslavia to
6 be able to be in the same position as the expert recommended or sought by
7 the Defence?
8 MS. KUO: Our reading of the rule is that we are required --
9 JUDGE HUNT: No, look, your concern for the sanctity of Rule 74
10 bis is very commendable, but it's clear that it has not always been
11 followed in the past. It has not been even followed by this Chamber in
12 the past. It may be that the list needs to be brought up to date, but
13 we're not going to allow a very technical problem to do with a Rule to
14 stand in the way with getting on with this trial. And we believe that it
15 is appropriate that the, that the examination be carried out by a person
16 who does understand the language and the background of the former
17 Yugoslavia. If this becomes an issue in the case, such an expert would
18 obviously be the best to assist us.
19 So if the Defence -- I'm sorry, if the Prosecution seeks a similar
20 expert, then we would grant it.
21 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour. What we'll do, then, is look at
22 the lists that the registrar has --
23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
24 MS. KUO: -- and then supplement it, perhaps, and suggest someone.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Well, is there anything that you want to add
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to that?
2 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Do you want to add anything to that, Mr. Bakrac?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I am not a
5 psychologist, I'm a lawyer, but I did look into this aspect, and I have
6 talked to experts and psychologists. The core of our proposal is to
7 obtain an adequate and valid and fair result. I was always being told
8 that a presence of a third person, be it an interpreter, a Defence
9 counsel, anybody else, does not allow for the possibility of a
10 comprehensive and valid expert opinion. We were also told --
11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I don't want to stop you, but I said is
12 there anything further you want to add? We've read your submissions, and
13 you've said all of this in your submissions, and we believe that it's
14 appropriate in this case. So unless you want to talk yourself out of it,
15 I suggest you pass on to something that's not in your written submissions
16 if you want to add anything.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honours, I think that this
18 new situation which was created by the answer given to the Prosecution
19 creates -- brings us to a situation where we will have a third person
20 while the tests are being conducted. We did indicate that these tests are
21 standardised. There is perhaps a possibility that I miscomprehended
22 something, but what we understood is that our expert who carries out the
23 testing will present all of the results of the testing and results of his
24 discussions with the accused, and this will be an expert from the list of
25 the Prosecution or the registrar's.
1 But it was our understanding that there would also be a third
2 person, which means another expert, which would also be present and
3 participate in this testing, and this is why I wanted to explain that the
4 presence of a third person, whoever it may be, will inhibit to some degree
5 the accused, and the contact between a psychologist and the subject that
6 was tested will not be appropriate.
7 So this is what the Defence believes. We believe this is a new
8 detail, and we wanted to bring this to your attention. We are prepared to
9 present the results of the expert opinion to any other expert who will
10 look it over; however, we do not agree with the other expert being present
11 during the examination for the very reasons that I have just stated to
13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the third person you're talking about is
14 a second expert, so there will be the accused and the two experts. Is
15 that what you're worried about?
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Not because we
17 have any bad intentions - I don't think that I even need to dispute this -
18 but simply saying a third person, a third party, and I'm bringing this to
19 your attention from the view of the accused, could bring to -- certain
20 inhibition to the accused, to influence him to not be as open and as
21 cooperative. So this presence of a third person, whether it is an
22 interpreter, a counsel, or an expert from another country, or a person who
23 is sent by the Prosecution --
24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I have been practising in the law for the
25 unfortunately long period now 42 years. Throughout that period, I have a
1 lot to do with cases involving medical examinations. Now, I am sure that
2 it's no different if we have somebody such as a Yugoslav in my country,
3 where there are many of them, being examined by a doctor there or being
4 examined by a doctor here in the Netherlands. It's almost invariable that
5 both sides have their own expert there during the course of that
6 examination; otherwise, it would be productive of possible mischief, but
7 it is also something which usually assists the party who is calling a
8 doctor to give evidence about the results of that examination, whoever
9 that doctor may be, the fact that both doctors have seen the same thing,
10 heard the same results, seen the same tests being conducted. It is
11 invariably so.
12 I can understand your concern that there would be an interpreter
13 there which rather suggests that the Prosecution would be even better
14 advised to have somebody similar to your expert who speaks the language,
15 but it would be inappropriate for this to be done without somebody from
16 the Prosecution there as well; otherwise, there will be all sorts of
17 suggestions which will be available to be made which could not otherwise
18 be made if both experts are there at the same time.
19 Now, I do not understand why your client would feel any more
20 diffident in speaking to an expert -- to one expert from his own country
21 or two experts from his own country. You don't suggest, do you, that
22 there's some special relationship between him and Ms. Najman?
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. In fact, they never met before;
24 there is no relationship there. I'm simply concerned, and I have already
25 stated to you I'm not a psychologist, I'm a lawyer, however I heard from
1 psychologists that they are standardised tests.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, of course there are standardised tests, but if I
3 may say so, you're destroying the value of any expert opinion you have
4 unless there is an expert from the other side there. That's the point I'm
5 trying to make. And there cannot be any diffidence on your client's part
6 in talking to two experts, particularly if they're from Yugoslavia,
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, then. We
9 misunderstood each other. You are now mentioning two experts from
10 Yugoslavia who speak the same language and who are from the same area, so
11 my apologies, Your Honours. If the Prosecution has an expert with these
12 qualifications, or perhaps the registry, if they should appoint such an
13 expert, then, of course, it is a different matter. In that case, we will
14 not be needing an interpreter, and I think that two experts will be able
15 to conduct this task.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Ms. Kuo, that only underlines what I said
17 before: If you're going to get any value of having an expert there, it
18 would be preferable, would it not, to have one from Yugoslavia and who
19 speaks the language?
20 MS. KUO: Absolutely, yes.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
22 MS. KUO: And we'll attempt to find someone, given the practical
24 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes, of course, we understand that.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE HUNT: By motion filed by the Defence on the 5th of June,
2 the Defence seeks to have the registry appoint Ms. Ana Najman,
3 N-a-j-m-a-n, of Belgrade to perform a psychological examination of the
4 accused, such examination to include certain specified tests which are
5 said to be standardised for the South Slavic population. Ms. Najman has
6 been nominated by the Defence because of what is said to be a need for the
7 examination to be conducted by someone from the same linguistic region who
8 also knows the ethnological, cultural, and anthropological region of the
9 environment as the accused, a factor said to be a very important segment
10 of "psychodiagnostics."
11 Objection was taken by the Prosecution in its response filed on
12 the 8th of January upon two bases: first, that no ground had been stated
13 which was relevant to any of the issues so far raised by the Defence; and
14 secondly, that Ms. Najman was not one of the experts named in the list
15 drawn up by the registrar in accordance with Rule 74 bis of the Tribunal's
16 Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
17 On the 9th of January, the Trial Chamber directed the accused to
18 identify the precise issue to which the psychological examination would be
19 relevant in the absence of any relevant issue raised by him in the Defence
20 Pre-Trial brief. Counsel for the accused then identified, in a document
21 dated the 12th of January, the purpose of the proposed examination as
22 being "to establish the personality structure of the accused in order to
23 help clarify his conduct in the situations of receiving orders, their
24 understanding and execution within the professional tasks he was assigned
25 as head of a part of the prison, as well as of other requirements asked
1 from him in the war circumstances."
2 Counsel for both parties then had a helpful discussion in which it
3 was made plain that the Defence seeks to ascertain whether there is, in
4 fact, any psychological basis for the actions of the accused. If such a
5 basis is discovered, then the Defence will no doubt consider whether to
6 amend its Pre-Trial brief to include it as an issue in the case.
7 The Prosecution has now filed a further response, dated the 17th
8 of January, in which it states that, subject to argument as to the
9 relevance and admissibility of the findings obtained in this examination,
10 it has no objection to such an examination being ordered.
11 In those circumstances, it is unnecessary for this Trial Chamber
12 to determine whether an order should be made to support what is quite
13 frankly, on its face, a fishing expedition. If it did have to determine
14 that issue, it would have to consider a number of matters, including the
15 fact that the accused is in custody and is unable to arrange such an
16 examination himself.
17 The Prosecution does, however, maintain its objection to
18 Ms. Najman upon the basis that she is not on the registry list kept in
19 accordance with the Rule, but the Prosecution also realistically
20 acknowledges that there is no expert on that list who speaks B/C/S and who
21 is from the former Yugoslavia.
22 The Trial Chamber is satisfied that in the particular
23 circumstances of this case, it is reasonable that the examination should
24 be performed by such an expert. Ms. Najman has already been accepted as
25 an expert witness in two other cases before the Tribunal, having been
1 appointed as such by the registar. Those are the cases of Dokmanovic and
2 of Radic. It may be that the list drawn up in accordance with the Rule is
3 ripe for being brought up-to-date, and the Trial Chamber will draw the
4 registrar's attention to the need for it to be brought up-to-date.
5 However, the Trial Chamber does not accept that Rule 74 bis should, in all
6 justice, stand in the way of this application, which the Trial Chamber
8 In accordance with the Trial Chamber's invitation to do so, the
9 Prosecution has sought the appointment also of a medical expert of its own
10 choosing to be present at and to participate in the examination to be
11 conducted by Ms. Najman. This was objected to by the Defence upon the
12 basis that it would somehow affect the validity of the examination to be
13 carried out by Ms. Najman. In my own very long experience of dealing with
14 medical examinations related to litigation, I can only say that such an
15 objection should be rejected. It is almost invariable that both parties
16 should be represented at such an examination. The presence of
17 representatives of both parties enhances the views which are formed.
18 There can be no suggestion made of any misconduct because of the presence
19 of both experts.
20 The Trial Chamber does recognise the problem which may arise if
21 the Prosecution chooses an expert who is not from Yugoslavia and does not
22 have the background which Ms. Najman has. Because of the need for an
23 interpreter, that certainly or may well interfere with the validity of the
24 examination. The Prosecution accepts this and will do its best to ensure
25 that the expert which it chooses will be from the former Yugoslavia and
1 does speak B/C/S. Such an expert will also necessarily not be in the
2 registrar's list, but the Trial Chamber will nevertheless grant that
3 request as well.
4 If there is any particular problem which the Prosecution has in
5 obtaining another such expert, bearing in mind the situation between the
6 Tribunal generally and the country of Serbia, the matter can be raised
7 again before the Trial Chamber. An order will be drawn up and signed
9 Now, is there anything further that needs to be done about that
11 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Well, now we have one other witness left on
13 the list. When I say "left on the list," we were told first of all that
14 47 could not come but that we may have 144 in his place.
15 MS. KUO: Yes. He's available. He's been waiting.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Now, does he have protective measures?
17 MS. KUO: Yes. The Court has granted a pseudonym and facial
19 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Well, let's have the blinds down again while
20 he's brought in.
21 MS. KUO: While we're waiting, Your Honour, perhaps we can have
22 the name sheet for this witness numbered as an exhibit.
23 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P419 and it will be under seal.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE HUNT: Please make the declaration in the document which is
1 being shown to you, sir.
2 WITNESS: FWS-144
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.
9 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Before you is a piece of paper which has been entered as Exhibit
13 P419. You'll see the letters and numbers FWS-144. Underneath that, is
14 that your name?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Underneath your name, is that your birth date?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 Q. Now, Witness, in April of 1992, where did you live? What town?
21 A. In April of 1992, I lived in a village called Jelec, near Foca.
22 Q. How far from Foca is Jelec?
23 A. About 20 kilometres.
24 Q. What was the ethnic composition of Jelec?
25 A. Mostly Bosniaks.
1 Q. With whom did you live?
2 A. With my wife and two sons.
3 Q. Did you work in Jelec?
4 A. No. I work in a Sarajevo company, and at that time I worked on a
5 construction site in the town of Novi Sad.
6 Q. Could you tell us what kind of work you did?
7 A. I was working as a metal worker with metal constructions.
8 Q. After the war in Foca started, did you see villages near Jelec
10 A. Yes. After the fall of Foca, the Serb forces set on fire
11 villages -- all the villages leading up to my village of Jelec.
12 Q. Could you tell us the names of those villages?
13 A. Well, based on my recollection, Susjesno -- from what we could see
14 from my village, Susjesno, Budanj, Izvisno, and Jelec was the last.
15 Q. What was the ethnic composition of those villages that were
17 A. Bosniaks only.
18 Q. Did the residents of Jelec do anything to try to defend
20 A. Well, for personal safety, we created guard units so that we could
21 defend ourselves from a much more powerful SDS.
22 Q. Did you participate in this guard?
23 A. Yes, for personal safety of my family.
24 Q. Did you have a weapon?
25 A. Not me. There were several rifles and people would pass it on as
1 they were standing guard.
2 Q. Did there come a time when the residents of Jelec who were
3 standing guard were asked to surrender weapons?
4 A. Yes. A representative of our village was invited to a meeting
5 with a representative of SDS from the village of Miljevina. They gave us
6 an ultimatum, requesting us to surrender of weapons in our possession.
7 Q. Did you surrender your weapons?
8 A. At the time, I didn't have one.
9 Q. Did the other people in Jelec surrender their weapons?
10 A. Most of them surrendered. Perhaps those who were the bravest
11 refused to obey.
12 Q. When was Jelec attacked?
13 A. 5th of May, 1992.
14 Q. Were you in Jelec when it was attacked?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Where specifically were you?
17 A. Well, specifically I was with my family, at home. However, when
18 the shelling of the village started, we fled into a nearby forest. The
19 entire population of the village did so.
20 Q. How many people was that?
21 A. Well, my village had approximately 300 households.
22 Q. So how many people fled into the forest with you?
23 A. The entire village had to flee, because we could not remain in the
24 residential area due to the shelling.
25 Q. From the forest, were you able to see any destruction in Jelec?
1 A. Yes. There was an elevation from which we could follow the entire
2 course of setting on fire this village of mine.
3 Q. What specifically was set on fire?
4 A. Well, everything that stood in their way was set on fire. They
5 didn't leave anything.
6 Q. When you say "they," whom do you mean?
7 A. I meant those Serb forces. I'm not sure who they were, but based
8 on the stories I heard, those were White Eagles from Serbia, and they were
9 escorted by our neighbours.
10 Q. From the forest, where did you go?
11 A. We remained in the forest for some three or four days; however, we
12 had no more food, so we were forced to head towards Sarajevo en masse as
14 Q. Did you reach Sarajevo?
15 A. No. On the road to Sarajevo, in Kalinovik we were met by Serb
16 forces again and detained us in a gym in Kalinovik. Then interrogation
17 ensued, questioning. After that, those who were military-able were
18 singled out and, three or four days later, deported towards Bileca to a
19 campsite that belonged to former JNA.
20 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I see that it's 1.00.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll resume at 2.30.
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. When you were at the gym in Kalinovik, was your family with you?
7 A. Only briefly. Perhaps one night, not more than that.
8 Q. Where was your family taken, then?
9 A. My family stayed in Kalinovik, and we who were military-able were
10 deported to Bileca.
11 Q. When you say "military-able," what do you mean?
12 A. I mean all the adult men up to a certain age limit, that is,
13 including fifties or ...
14 Q. Were you part of that group?
15 A. Yes, and my elder son.
16 Q. How old was your son at that time?
17 A. He was born in 1971, so that he had -- he was 20 something, isn't
19 Q. Can you tell us your son's name, please?
20 A. My son's name, I don't know if -- can it be protected?
21 JUDGE HUNT: Actually, yes.
22 MS. KUO: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'll withdraw the
24 JUDGE HUNT: If you'd like to have it written down.
25 MS. KUO: It's actually not necessary at this point.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: All right.
2 MS. KUO:
3 Q. How many men were taken to Bileca?
4 A. About 50 neighbours of mine.
5 Q. Were all of these people from Jelec?
6 A. Absolutely, all were from Jelec and nowhere else, only Jelec.
7 Q. How long were you kept at Bileca?
8 A. We stayed 25 days in Bileca.
9 Q. When you were taken to Bileca, were there other people there as
11 A. Yes. There were also men from the Dubrovnik front of Croat
12 origin, but they were not in the same cells with us. They were in
13 adjoining cells.
14 Q. Could you tell us what shape those people were in?
15 A. Very bad because they had gone through horrible torture, whereas
16 we were not tortured at all, except some minor provocations.
17 Q. After you -- when were you taken from Bileca?
18 A. From Bileca I was taken away, well, shortly before the 1st of June
19 because I know that on the 1st of June I was returned to the KP Dom in
21 Q. When you say "returned," what do you mean? Were you there
22 already, or you were taken there for the first time?
23 A. I was returned to Kalinovik from which I went to Bileca, and from
24 Kalinovik to the camp in Foca for the first time.
25 Q. Who was taken with you to KP Dom?
1 A. All of us who had gone to Bileca, we all, down to the last one,
2 came back to Foca.
3 Q. Were the Croats who were at Bileca taken with you to KP Dom?
4 A. No. They stayed behind in Bileca.
5 Q. When you were taken to the KP Dom, what room were you placed in?
6 A. As far as I can remember, it was a room on the uppermost floor,
7 and I think it was Room 22. I am sure that it was the top floor of one of
8 the pavilions, and I think it was the fourth floor.
9 Q. Where were the other men from Jelec taken?
10 A. All those who were returned from Bileca -- do you mean the men
11 coming back from Bileca?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. They were all put in the same room, that room, 22.
14 Q. Were there men in Room 22 who were not from Jelec?
15 A. At the time when we were brought there, there was nobody else; but
16 after that, in the course of the day, they filled rooms with men who were
17 not from Jelec.
18 Q. Where were those other men from?
19 A. I didn't really know them, but as they came one by one, they began
20 talking to us, and I know that, for instance, a group was brought from
22 Q. How long were you kept in Room 22?
23 A. I couldn't really remember the date. In Room 22 I may have stayed
24 until the end of 1992, even though that is not official because I can't
25 remember the date.
1 Q. What other rooms were you kept in during your time at KP Dom?
2 A. There were some selections made of the inmates. A work group was
3 set up and put in a room below 22, and I was moved to Room 16 later on.
4 That was on the ground floor of that same pavilion.
5 Q. How long were you kept at KP Dom, total?
6 A. From that 1st of June, 1992, until the 10th of October, 1994,
7 which means almost 900 days, including Bileca.
8 Q. During the time that you were kept at KP Dom, were detainees ever
10 A. Yes, since my arrival in June. As for the worst torture and
11 beatings, it happened mostly in those months, June, July, until
12 September. June and July were, I should say, critical as regards those
14 Q. What time of day or night did the beatings occur?
15 A. There was a set time. It was largely in the early evening hours
16 that guards would come in with a list, which means that somebody made the
17 selection of those men, and they would call them out from dormitories and
18 then taken out of the compound.
19 Q. What were you able to see?
20 A. We were not able to see anything. We could only follow them from
21 the dormitories until they left the prison yard, the compound.
22 Q. Did you see where they went from the dormitory?
23 A. From the dormitories, they would go to the main gate, to the --
24 where they had the control, and that was all that we could see.
25 Q. Did you hear anything from that point on?
1 A. Those individual cases, those men they took out, perhaps one, two,
2 or three would happen as soon as they would go through the prison gate,
3 that is, as soon as they would go through the gate, one could hear screams
4 and yelling and beating immediately after that, and sometimes it took
6 Q. What did you do when you heard the screaming?
7 A. Well, it wasn't all that simple. We tried to flee to the corners,
8 to the remotest corners of our room, but we could not really help not
9 hearing it. Some tried to cover their heads with pillows, and there were
10 also some who would lean through the windows and listen to it.
11 Q. Could you tell us how you felt when you heard this?
12 A. I somehow managed to cope with it, because what could I do?
13 That's the fate of the man, and I somehow summoned courage to bear it.
14 Q. After the screaming, did you hear or see anything?
15 A. After that ritual of beating, those screams and all the rest would
16 die out, would die down. And then a car, which we could recognise because
17 it had characteristic sound - I guess its exhaust pipe was missing - so we
18 would hear this car being switched on and head for the bridge on the
20 Q. Could you tell us where the sound of the screaming was coming
21 from? First of all, which direction?
22 A. I could not really give you the exact direction, but say the
23 administrative building and then the main entrance. To my -- to what I
24 managed to learn during my stay there, there was supposedly a cell in the
25 administrative building where people were reportedly beaten, and allegedly
1 there were also some links in the floor to which those men were tied.
2 Q. Could you tell us where the sound of the car with the broken
3 exhaust pipe was coming from?
4 A. The sound always came from in front of the administration building
5 when it would be switched on.
6 Q. How did you know that the car went toward the bridge?
7 A. Well, it was nighttime, as a rule, especially in those first
8 evenings, and we would peer through the window and watch. Since we were
9 on the topmost floor, we had a rather good view over the administrative
10 building, a good view of a bridge which was partly hidden by a tree, so
11 that all we could see were the lights of that car, and of course its
13 Q. What did you see -- what about the lights? What did you see
14 regarding the lights? Where were the lights coming from?
15 A. Lights were moving towards the bridge, and then, when presumably
16 the vehicle would reach the bridge, they would be off and the vehicle
17 would then continue to the end of the bridge and come back.
18 Q. Did you see the vehicle stop, or rather the lights of the vehicle
19 come to a stop?
20 A. The lights would be switched off on the bridge.
21 Q. I'd like to clarify this. Could you see the vehicle itself or
22 just the lights from the vehicle?
23 A. The vehicle could not be seen at all. We could follow it by the
24 sound it made, and it was very loud because it did not have the exhaust
1 Q. But the lights, how do you know that the lights came from the
3 A. It was only at that time that that vehicle with that sound moved.
4 There were no other lights, nor did any other vehicle move about at that
6 MS. KUO: I'd like to have, with the assistance of the usher, the
7 witness shown Prosecution Exhibit P18, photograph 7528.
8 A. This.
9 Q. Could you tell us in the photograph --
10 A. Here. This.
11 Q. -- what you saw from Room 22?
12 A. This building with three chimneys and the tree in front, this is
13 the administrative building. Yes, that's right. And we could see it from
14 my room.
15 Q. Looking at where there is a yellow arrow, can you see what's
17 A. No, I can't really make it out. I'm not -- I can't make it out
18 whether that is the beginning of the bridge or what. But the tree hid the
19 bridge, looking from my window, except the end of the bridge on the
20 opposite sides of the Drina that you could glimpse in daytime; at night it
21 was absolutely impossible.
22 Q. You mentioned that the tree obscured your vision of the bridge.
23 Could you see the light of the car through the leaves of the tree?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 MS. KUO: Thank you. I'd like --
1 A. It was my pleasure.
2 MS. KUO: -- the usher to have another exhibit shown to this
3 Witness. It's P6/5.
4 Q. Could you point out to us where Room 22 is?
5 A. I can if you give me a moment. Room 22, yes, this is the room,
6 and it was -- it had some space with lockers, and the lavatory,
7 living-room, and four dormitories, and of those four, I was in the front
8 one, in this one here on the last floor, Room 22.
9 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness has pointed to
10 one of the bedrooms in Room 22, to the -- the one to the right, closest to
11 the administrative building.
12 Q. Could you show us the window or windows that you were looking out
13 of when you saw the light on the bridge?
14 A. There were windows on this side too, but also there were windows
15 on this side, facing the administrative building. So both these
16 dormitories had their windows overlooking the administrative building, and
17 through those windows we could clearly see or, rather, monitor the
18 movement of the vehicle.
19 Q. The windows in those two front bedrooms, could you -- which one
20 did you look out of when you saw the headlights on the bridge? Do you
22 A. There were two windows in this particular room. I can't remember
23 which one of the two. That is something that I don't remember. But we
24 tried to peep out because we were -- it was strictly forbidden to look
25 through the window, and we were punished by beating if they caught us.
1 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness pointed to the
2 windows that would be in the bedroom which he identified as his. Thank
4 Q. Did you know someone named Safet Avdic?
5 A. Safet Avdic, I knew him before the war, and it also happened that
6 we shared the same dormitory in Room 22 for a certain period of time.
7 Q. Was he in Room 22 with you when you -- when the beatings that you
8 described happened?
9 A. Yes. Yes, yes, he was. I'm sure.
10 Q. Were you able to identify any of the people who were taken out and
11 beaten in this way?
12 A. The only man I knew personally, because he had relatives in my
13 village, was Tulek. Before the war, he worked for that same KP Dom. He
14 was in my village, at the fish farm, at the time when the war broke out;
15 that is, he was a guard there before the war. So that when my village was
16 torched, he, together with the villagers of Jelec, experienced this whole
17 calvary that we went through, to Kalinovik, to Bileca, to KP Dom, and
18 stayed in Room 22 with us for a certain time. But shortly after that, he
19 was called out, taken for interrogation in the administrative building.
20 And after that first round, he returned to the room, but only briefly,
21 only to pick up his belongings, and was then transferred to another room,
22 that is, placed in isolation, that is, in solitary confinement. And not
23 long after that, he was again taken from that room and did not come back,
24 but he went through all those beatings right at the entrance as soon as he
1 Q. Could you tell us Mr. Tulek's first name?
2 A. Kemo. Kemo. Kemal or Kemo Tulek. His mother came from my
3 village, so that I knew him a little, and it just happened that he was on
4 duty in my village.
5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Kemal Tulek is in Schedule C, number 25.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 MS. KUO:
8 Q. You said that he was brought back after the first rounds of
9 beatings. Did you see -- first of all, what room was he kept in?
10 A. He was in Room 22 and in my dormitory, because Room 22 had four
11 subdivisions, but he was in my dormitory. We shared the same dormitory
12 until he was taken away.
13 Q. And when he was brought back from the beatings, could you see
14 injuries on him?
15 A. No. When he returned from interrogation, no, he was not beaten
16 then. It was as he left the solitary confinement where he was put
17 temporarily, it was then, after that, that he was beaten and after that
18 that he did not come back.
19 Q. You said he was put in solitary confinement. Where specifically
20 was he placed?
21 A. It wasn't a proper isolation cell. It was a, it was a room on the
22 same floor as our room was, to the right of the staircase and my room.
23 Q. Do you know if that room had a number?
24 A. No, I don't remember.
25 Q. Do you know if anybody was kept in that room with him, or was he
1 completely by himself?
2 A. He was all alone in that room.
3 Q. Do you know if there were people kept downstairs from that room?
4 A. Downstairs from that room, beneath that room, were some Serb
5 prisoners sentenced for various crimes, so two floors below were Serb
7 Q. When you saw Kemal Tulek after he had been taken away for
8 interrogation, did he tell you what had happened to him?
9 A. In not so many words, but as the guard waited for him in the door,
10 he said that the interrogation -- they had accused him of being in
11 possession of a weapon, and he claimed not to have ever had it. And that
12 was all that he managed to tell us as he was leaving.
13 Q. After you saw Kemal Tulek that time, did you see him again?
14 A. No, never again.
15 Q. Were you ever interrogated?
16 A. Yes. Everybody had to go through interrogation.
17 Q. When were you interrogated?
18 A. It was one of those early days when we were brought there. I
19 cannot remember the date. It was 1992, and they covered room by room,
20 interrogating. It took some time.
21 Q. Who conducted the interrogation?
22 A. I was interrogated by Zoran -- those were prewar investigators of
23 the police, that is, MUP, MUP Foca, whom I knew before the war. Zoran
24 Vladicic and Vojo Starovic, they were in the room. They were present in
25 the room when I was interrogated.
1 Q. Were you mistreated during your interrogation?
2 A. No. I was not, but my son, they also charged -- accused my son of
3 having some explosive devices, put something on the table and said, "This
4 was found in your house," and wanted to write the record, then you have to
5 sign that record whether you like it or not. That was it.
6 And as for me, no, they did not because I had an alibi which they
7 believed, and that was at the time when the aggression began, I was at the
8 construction site in Novi Sad with a Sarajevo company. And then I came to
9 visit my family during a religious holiday, during Bajram, and I had to go
10 through checkpoints and barricades, so that I simply found myself at the
11 time of the aggression by my place, and they believed my story and did not
12 ill-treat me, and I suppose that is how I survived the camp.
13 Q. You said that they charged or accused your son. Did they -- did
14 he have a trial or a hearing on what they accused him of?
15 A. No, there was no trial, but as he was coming back from the -- as
16 he came back from the investigation, my son told me how they treated him
17 and accused him of having been in possession of an explosive device and a
18 weapon, but the lad never had anything. Nevertheless, he had to sign a
19 statement to that effect.
20 Q. Were groups of detainees ever taken away and told they would be
22 A. Yes, there were such groups. All those groups which were taken
23 away were told that they were about to be exchanged. "Get your things,
24 you'll be exchanged." But the majority of those groups never turned up,
25 although there were some smaller groups which were taken away to, say, our
1 border, that is, to the border which was controlled by our army, and then
2 they were released. That is how elderly men were taken away and then
3 transferred to the territory under the control of the army of
5 Q. Were any men from Jelec taken away and told they would be
7 A. Yes. The story was always the same when they took them away:
8 "You will be exchanged."
9 Q. How many men from Jelec were taken out in this way?
10 A. Thirty-four, thirty-four of my neighbours were taken away and
11 never returned, and a small number of them, as I said, those of a more
12 advanced age, they survived. Thirty-four, and I have the list of all
13 their first and last names. They were all my neighbours, or rather, my
14 villagers, they were taken away and all trace of them is lost, and that
15 group includes my son.
16 Q. When you say all trace is lost, first, did you see them again at
17 KP Dom?
18 A. No.
19 Q. After you were released from KP Dom, did you ever see or hear from
20 those 34 people?
21 A. No, no one ever managed to get in touch from anywhere. We are all
22 in contact. We are all from the same place, so all of us have been in
23 touch until the present day. None of those 34 were ever heard from since.
24 Q. You said your son was among them. Could you tell us how you
25 learned that your son had been taken away?
1 A. My son was taken away on the 9th of September when mostly young
2 men were taken out. At that -- on that day, I was on work duty within the
3 so-called metal plant within this camp. On my way back from work around 3
4 p.m., I was told that my son was taken out for an exchange. I thought,
5 well, let him be saved at least; however, that was only an illusion.
6 Q. Why do you say that?
7 A. I meant to say that I had hoped that he had been saved. Maybe
8 that was my wish. Perhaps it was wrong for me to use this word
9 "illusion." I mean my only wish was for my child to get out of there,
10 even if I had to stay.
11 Q. After you were released from KP Dom, did you make efforts to find
12 your son?
13 A. Efforts were made to find him through the International Red Cross.
14 This has been going on until the present day; however, there has been no
15 trace whatsoever.
16 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you were on work duty at the metal
17 workshop. Could you tell us how long you worked in the workshop?
18 A. I joined in sometime in August, just before my son was taken
19 away. Sometime in August I was taken there for work duty. All the way up
20 to my release on the 10th of October, 1994, I was constantly involved.
21 Q. Did you join that workforce voluntarily, or were you forced to?
22 A. It looked voluntary. If you look at it, people were asking to
23 leave these cells because they were starving. It seemed that we were all
24 struggling for these jobs to work outside the compound. Nevertheless,
25 this was forced labour. However, we all struggled on account of our
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 hunger because this gave people an extra meal, all of those who were in
2 these work groups.
3 However, I say that nevertheless this was forced labour. When
4 people complained that they were sick or that they were injured and said
5 that they could not go to the mines, for example, then there was no
6 possibility for any absence, they simply had to go.
7 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
8 witness shown Exhibit P6.
9 Q. Witness, you mentioned that one of the benefits of working was to
10 be outside the compound. Could you show us where the metal workshop was
11 located on this exhibit?
12 A. Just a minute, please. This is very small, so let me try to find
13 my way.
14 This is the main gate leading out of the prison compound. The
15 next gate leads to the metal workshop. That is one of the workshops.
16 This is Tokarija. Across opposite that one is the locksmith shop, and
17 then is the mechanics shop. I worked in all three shops, depending on the
18 work I actually did.
19 Q. Could you show us how you were taken to the workshop, what route
20 you took.
21 A. We always had to pass by the main gate and to be checked there,
22 then we got out of the prison compound, and then after a short time, to
23 this gate that led to the metal shop compound. Every day except on
25 Q. On this diagram, if you look just above where the entrance
1 building is, it looks like you can actually just walk through from the
2 courtyards of the KP Dom into the workshop area. Was that possible, or
3 was there some sort of barrier there?
4 A. There was no other entrance into the compound that was the
5 workshop area. There must be some kind of mistake. There was a fence
6 here, a wall. There is no such thing marked here. You couldn't pass
7 through this at all. There was a wall there for sure.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. Thank you.
10 MS. KUO: If I could ask to have the ELMO light shut off. We no
11 longer need the ELMO.
12 Q. What kinds of things did you make in the metal shop?
13 A. Well, since the KP Dom was engaged in some kind of activity even
14 before the war -- actually, they had a production process of their own.
15 Before the war, they made furniture, and also the metal shop made various
16 objects out of metal. They had a farm of their own outside Foca called
17 Velecevo. As for the metal workshop, it involved the maintenance of
18 vehicles, of the vehicles that belonged to them personally.
19 They wanted to maintain the production of those metal kiosks for
20 the market, so we continued making these metal kiosks, and I did that for
21 a while. And then if there wasn't enough work to do, then I worked as a
22 locksmith. And then if there wasn't enough to do there, then I went to
23 help my colleague who worked as a mechanic on vehicle maintenance.
24 Q. Were you ever taken outside the workshop area to places in Foca
25 itself to work?
1 A. Yes. I personally was taken out often, very often -- quite often
2 outside the prison compound and outside the metal workshop area. I was
3 taken to quite a few places in town to do various things. Of course, I
4 was always escorted by prison guards.
5 Q. Where were you taken to work?
6 A. Well, for the most part, I was taken to the city bakery where I
7 worked on machine maintenance if something broke down. And then also the
8 heating system of the city hospital, and then also the town school was --
9 the high school or was it the elementary school? It was this school in
10 Aladza, at any rate, and it had the same kind of central heating system.
11 Then also there was this farm in Velecevo, the maintenance of these farms,
12 chicken farms, things like that. That's what we did. That's what I
13 personally did.
14 I forget to mention something else. There was a factory that made
15 socks and stockings on the other side of the Drina, and that can be seen
16 quite clearly from the camp. That is where this sock and stocking factory
17 was where I also worked.
18 Q. When you were taken out to these places to work, how did the
19 townspeople treat you?
20 A. If we did not go far away from the camp, we didn't use a vehicle,
21 we just went on foot in a column escorted by guards. There were some
22 small provocations. People would say something. Sometimes some people
23 would even run up to you and kick you or hit you with their hand, but that
24 was about it.
25 Q. Did the guards who were escorting you protect you from these
2 A. Well, in my view, if a prison guard would take me out of the
3 prison compound, then he would be duty-bound to take me back, and
4 therefore he would have to take care of me. But it's not that they really
5 protected me. Sometimes, for example, they would answer these
6 provocations. I remember once when one of the guards also said something
7 provocative in response to yet another provocation. He said, "Why don't
8 you catch yourself a Muslim, a Bosniak, and then do whatever you want with
10 Q. Who was in charge of the work duties?
11 A. Mr. Savo Todovic was in charge of the work duties. He's the one
12 who carried out this selection, according to qualifications and skills,
13 for various jobs. Often he would go into the prison compound; he would go
14 to the various dormitories and make lists of various groups.
15 Q. You made a statement, Witness, to the representatives of the
16 Office of the Prosecutor on the 24th of June, 1996, regarding Savo
17 Todovic, which I'd like you to explain. At page 5, you said: "He could
18 force even sick persons to work. Nobody could overturn his decision."
19 Could you explain what you meant by that last part, that nobody could
20 overturn his decision?
21 A. Could anybody overturn that decision or not? I mean, we had no
22 possibility of refusing to go to work once he had said so, because that
23 would have only worsened our position, that is to say, our position within
24 the camp.
25 Q. Do you know what Savo Todovic's formal position was, what his
1 title was at KP Dom?
2 A. I think that he was only in charge of us. I mean, as far as we,
3 the inmates, are concerned, he was in charge only of these working groups
4 that we were engaged in. In my opinion, this was a level lower than that
5 of camp warden.
6 Q. Who was the camp warden while you were at KP Dom?
7 A. In my opinion, it is an undeniable fact that Mr. Krnojelac was the
8 camp warden from the time when I was brought in - that was June
9 1992 - until perhaps the end of 1993, when a certain Zoran came whom I did
10 not know, nor did I remember his last name.
11 Q. How did you know that Milorad Krnojelac was the camp warden?
12 A. I could not have known during those first few days until I got out
13 of the prison compound. Also when I worked further in the metal shop, I
14 found out about that.
15 Q. How did you find out? Who told you? Or did you conclude this
16 from some other information?
17 A. There was some information. I mean, during those 900 days, quite
18 a bit of information had leaked. Quite a bit could be found out. What is
19 most reliable is perhaps something that I am certain of, when the head of
20 my metal shop entrusted me with a task of going to work on Mr. Krnojelac's
21 house. He told me that I had to make three metal doors for the
22 warden - that's what he said - within the metal workshop area. I made
23 these metal doors, together with a colleague, and then I went to mount
24 these three doors on Mr. Krnojelac's house, along with a group of
25 construction workers who were involved in various other construction
1 activities there, like on the roof, et cetera. Then also I made some
2 metal stairs for the attic in that house, and also a metal skeleton for a
3 bar that they had on the ground floor of that house that had burned down.
4 Q. You mentioned construction workers. Where were those construction
5 workers taken from? Were they professionals?
6 A. These were mainly construction workers from the prison compound.
7 I really don't know, to tell you the truth, how well versed they were in
8 these jobs. They were taking care of the roof and doing various other
9 things. There were two of us locksmiths and a few other workers who were
10 working on that house.
11 Q. How many of you were taken from the KP Dom to work on
12 Mr. Krnojelac's house?
13 A. I just mentioned there were three metal workers, two locksmiths,
14 and one general metal worker, and then three or four additional men who
15 were working on the roof.
16 Q. How were you taken to his house?
17 A. We were taken by car only, the prison car -- actually, the van
18 that belonged to the prison, and the prison guards drove us. On one
19 occasion, Mitar Rasevic, who was commander of the guard, when he brought
20 us to Mr. Krnojelac's house, Mitar Rasevic handed us over to
21 Mr. Krnojelac's son. He was supposed to guard us while we worked there
22 during the day and to finish our work. When we would finish our work at
23 the end of the day, then the prison van would come back to pick us up and
24 take us back.
25 Q. Where was Mr. Krnojelac's house located? In what neighbourhood?
1 A. This was a neighbourhood in Foca called Donje Polje.
2 Q. Now, you mentioned that you were -- those of you at the KP Dom
3 were handed over to Krnojelac's son. Did Mr. Krnojelac's son have a job
4 or did he function as a guard at the KP Dom?
5 A. No. During my stay at the KP Dom, I never saw him. I never saw
6 him either in the prison compound or outside the prison compound or in the
7 metal workshop area.
8 Q. While Mr. Krnojelac's son guarded you, did he wear any sort of
9 uniform or carry any sort of weapon?
10 A. Yes. He had a camouflage uniform all the time and he only had a
12 Q. While you were at the Krnojelac house, did you meet any other
13 members of the Krnojelac family?
14 A. Yes. On one occasion, his other son came in a wheelchair, and
15 Mr. Krnojelac's wife, who brought us meals while we were working on his
16 house. Also Mr. Krnojelac came while we were working.
17 Q. What kind of interaction did you have with Mr. Krnojelac himself?
18 A. Absolutely good, decent.
19 Q. Did he say anything to you or the other detainees working there?
20 A. Yes. There was conversation, exclusively related to the work we
21 were doing; nothing else.
22 Q. Approximately how many -- what was the length of time that you
23 worked on the Krnojelac house?
24 A. I was there for three or four days, while the group that worked on
25 the roof stayed a bit longer.
1 Q. Do you remember approximately what dates this was?
2 A. The dates, I can't remember that, but I think it was the end of
4 Q. Inside the KP Dom, did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac?
5 A. He entered the prison compound very rarely, but he was often in
6 the metal workshop area and also in front of the administration building.
7 That's where he was very often. When we were going to and from work in
8 the metal workshop area, we would see him there often.
9 Q. And to clarify, when you say "in front of the administrative
10 building," do you mean on the inside or the outside of the KP Dom?
11 A. No. Completely outside the KP Dom. There were a few chairs there
12 in front of the administration building. That's usually where they would
13 sit there if the weather was nice. They would chat. We could notice that
14 as we were passing by.
15 Q. And just going back very briefly, because I forgot to ask you this
16 before. When you said that -- when you worked on the Krnojelac house, was
17 Mr. Krnojelac still the warden at KP Dom?
18 A. Well, as I said, this work was sometime in 1993. I can't remember
19 the exact month. It was a long time ago. We did not dare write anything
20 down. We would not dare keep any records when we went out or something
21 like that, so I'm not sure whether he was still warden at that time or
22 not. It might have been towards the end of his term.
23 Q. Where did other detainees work? You mentioned a farm and you
24 mentioned a mine. Perhaps we can get a little bit more detail on the
25 mine. First of all, where was it located?
1 A. The brown coal mine was about 15 kilometres away from Foca. It's
2 a place called Miljevina. May I mention that, before the war, also the
3 former prisoners of the KP Dom worked at the mine, so in order to keep
4 production going at the mine, our inmates went there. A group went there
5 every day except on Sundays. A vehicle took them there often, a KP Dom
6 vehicle, and sometimes a vehicle of the Miljevina mine. But a prison
7 guard would be there invariably.
8 Q. Did any detainees from Jelec work in the Miljevina mine?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever hear from people working there about what kind of
11 work they did there and whether it was difficult?
12 A. Well, all work at a mine is difficult. They only worked on the
13 extraction of ore in a primitive way, as the mine functioned before the
14 war. Perhaps the conditions were even a bit more difficult. They didn't
15 complain of anything in particular except for hunger and having enough
16 stamina to go on, because this additional meal that they were given during
17 working hours, they told us, was a can of 150 to 200 grammes of pate and
18 also a quarter of a loaf of bread. After work, after they would get out
19 of the pit, they would take a bath regularly before they went back to the
20 KP Dom.
21 Q. You mentioned that when you went in and out of the KP Dom area,
22 there was some sort of checkpoint. What were you checked for as you were
23 going either out of or into, back into, the KP Dom?
24 A. We were checked more as we came in. It all depended on the guard
25 who would happen to be at that checkpoint. You had to take everything out
1 of your pockets, and they would check everything that was being brought
2 into the prison compound. Very often they took away food that sometimes
3 these inmates would get, those who went out to work. For example, a
4 person would pick an apple if he worked on the farm. Some guards would
5 even take away an apple like that, or an extra slice of bread. They
6 wouldn't allow them to bring it in. Whereas other guards would simply let
7 you go in without any kind of check.
8 Q. Were any of the detainees who worked ever paid for the work they
10 A. No, never. Had there been any adequate food, money, any
11 remuneration, no way.
12 Q. The guards at the KP Dom, what kind of uniforms did they wear?
13 Were they civilian or military?
14 A. As regards uniforms, in the beginning you could see all sorts.
15 Some wore prewar dark blue uniforms, others had been mobilised to the
16 compound and wore the uniforms of the former Yugoslav army, and the
17 majority also had camouflage uniforms. But in the early days they came in
18 all shapes and sizes.
19 Q. Later on in your stay at the KP Dom, did there -- did the uniforms
21 A. Yes. In 1994, standard uniforms were designed for those prison
22 guards, and they were, yes, of different colours; camouflage, but dark
23 blue and black. They were mostly camouflage uniforms and they were
24 designed for the prison staff mostly.
25 Q. Did you ever see guards going to the front line?
1 A. Yes. They took shifts during mobilisation. They went group by
2 group, would go for a fortnight and come back, and took shifts that way,
3 but I believe that everybody had to go through it, except the
4 highest-placed officials in the KP Dom.
5 Q. And whom would you count among those people?
6 A. Well, I mean the warden of the KP Dom, Todovic, and Mitar Rasevic,
7 guard commander, they were always there and they only dealt with the camp.
8 Q. When you said "the warden," could you tell us who you meant?
9 A. What I always say is that it is an irrefutable fact that
10 Mr. Krnojelac was the warden, but whether he had a say and how much weight
11 he could pull in the compound, I do not know. I do not know if he would
12 change anything or help, perhaps, or help the prisoners. Or how much he
13 actually took part in crimes, I don't know.
14 Q. When were you finally released from KP Dom? What was the date?
15 A. The 10th of October, 1994, through the good offices of the
16 International Committee of the Red Cross.
17 Q. Do you know whether it was a military exchange or purely a
18 civilian one?
19 A. It was a civilian exchange.
20 Q. During the course of your exchange, did you have any contact or
21 did you see any military commanders in Miljevina?
22 A. We had some trouble with the exchange because it failed that first
23 day, or rather, at that first moment. From Foca to Sarajevo we were taken
24 in a car, escorted by prison authorities and the military, and we were
25 brought to Sarajevo, to another camp called Kula. But when we entered
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that other compound, that some complications, some problems arose, I don't
2 know what they were, so that we were never -- we never got off that bus.
3 And some guys in camouflage uniforms ran out and threatened the driver and
4 escort and everybody and told us that we were to go back to Foca.
5 So the bus went back to Miljevina. So slightly before Foca, we
6 stopped there at a -- by a motel, and that motel served as a kind of a
7 headquarters or something for the Serb army, and we stayed there for about
8 half an hour. They tried to talk to somebody, seek somebody's advice.
9 They allowed us to get off the bus for a short while to relieve ourselves
10 and things like that.
11 So there were some consultations and discussion, and as far as we
12 could understand, they were talking to Mr. Kovac. And evidently that
13 agreement yielded fruit so that we did not go back to Foca and, instead,
14 went back to that camp in Sarajevo, Kula, and that is when the exchange
15 went through.
16 Q. Do you know what position that Mr. Kovac had?
17 A. Well, from what we could hear, he was a commander. He was the
18 commander of a unit. I couldn't say which formation, battalion, or
19 something of the Foca Corps that he was the Commander-in-Chief, because we
20 could hear quite often when they would announce the mobilisation over a
21 car equipped with the PA system, and that mobilisation would be signed by
22 somebody called Kovac.
23 Q. During the whole time that you were kept at KP Dom, the 900 or so
24 days that you described, were you ever told why you were being kept there
25 and for so long?
1 A. There was no explanation. Every day we spent there was full of
2 uncertainty. Nobody communicated with us until the Red Cross came and
3 registered the inmates.
4 Q. And when were you registered?
5 A. Well, the Red Cross made it through only on the 23rd of June,
6 1993, which is more than a year after I was brought to the KP Dom. That
7 was the first time that the International Red Cross came, even though they
8 tried to do so before that but were not allowed to.
9 Q. I'd like to go back to when you were working at Mr. Krnojelac's
10 house and you saw one of his sons in a wheelchair. Did you ever do any
11 work for that son?
12 A. On yet another occasion, as the chief of the metal shop told me, I
13 had to do a metal, a metal rack for the office of the warden's son because
14 he was given this outlet in the centre of Foca. And I did it in the metal
15 shop, those racks, those shelves, but I didn't go to mount them in that
16 outlet, even though I did go there once in order to take measurements, of
17 course, in order to make all those shelves and racks.
18 Q. And do you know that it was that son rather than the other son,
19 the one who was not in a wheelchair, that this is the work you were doing?
20 A. I think that that business premises were given to his son because
21 he lost his extremities in the war.
22 Q. As a result of your detention in the KP Dom, can you tell us how
23 you suffered physically?
24 A. I didn't suffer any physical consequences except fear and hunger.
25 I was not beaten or anything. I was very lucky. I was one of the few who
1 were never beaten. So that except for everyday fear that I might be
2 liquidated and the fact that I was starved, that I was famished, nothing
3 else. But these, of course, are lasting consequences.
4 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] To begin with, good afternoon. I'm Miroslav
8 Vasic, and I'm one of the counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.
9 A. Good afternoon. Thank you.
10 Q. Do you know if there were any crisis staffs in Foca before the
11 conflict broke out?
12 A. I believe there were some Crisis Staffs, both in your army and in
13 our army.
14 Q. Thank you. And was there Crisis Staff in Jelec, too?
15 A. Yes, there was one in Jelec.
16 Q. And this Crisis Staff, was it responsible for the defence of
18 A. Well, you could say that. The protection of Jelec insofar as it
19 was possible to protect it.
20 Q. Thank you. How many statements did you make to the OTP
21 investigators, could you tell us?
22 A. I gave one statement. Now, was it 1998 in Sarajevo? I gave one
23 statement -- or, rather, it took two days, really. I gave it, but it was
24 one statement because I didn't finish the first day, so we went on the
25 second day, but it was one statement.
1 Q. Was it on the 14th and the 24th of June, 1996?
2 A. Believe me, I can't remember the date, but it was Sarajevo when I
3 gave the statement, and the date, I really don't remember it.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Just hold it. You are starting your questions while
6 the translation is still well and truly underway, Mr. Vasic.
7 And for the witness's sake, do pause after you've heard the
8 question finish before you begin your answer. That is because the one
9 translator has to take both the question and the answer and they have to
10 catch up. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay, okay.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I should like to ask the usher to help me show you a copy of your
14 statement that we were given by the OTP. One is in Bosnian and the other
15 one in English, and you will tell us if that is the statement that you
16 mentioned that you gave to the OTP.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] So it is 274 and 274A. Thank you.
18 Q. Perhaps it will be better if you looked at the English version
19 because it has your signature, if that is your signature.
20 A. Yes, that is right. It is my signature. 24th of June, 1996.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Usher, could you please return those
23 statements back to me.
24 Q. Did you give any other statements after this statement, do you
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you on the 25th of September, 1998, perhaps, give another
3 statement, or would it be easier for you if I showed you copies of that
4 statement, too?
5 A. Well, let me see.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Will the usher please help me once
7 again. These have numbers. The numbers are 275 and 275A.
8 A. Yes, this is my signature, 1998. I've just mentioned 1998, but
9 1996 I omitted. I forgot it. I knew about this one, of 1998.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the copies back.
12 Q. You testified today that you arrived in KP Dom on the 1st of June,
13 1992. Could you tell us if you heard from other prisoners whether before
14 you came to the KP Dom there was in it ...
15 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately, the counsel's microphone is
16 turned off. I could not hear the end of the question.
17 A. Yes, I heard it from the men who were in the camp before me, or
18 rather, those who came to the camp before me, that there were the troops
19 of the so-called Uzice Corps whom I did not find there when I got there.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, you turned your microphone off before you
21 finished asking your last question. Are you able to reconstruct what the
22 question was?
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Thank you, Your
25 My question was whether, after he came to the KP Dom, he heard
1 from other prisoners whether there had been any military troops in the KP
2 Dom before he came there, before he got there.
3 A. Do you want me to answer again?
4 JUDGE HUNT: No, thank you. Your answer came out very clearly.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Q. Can you tell me how long did those troops stay in KP Dom,
7 according to them?
8 A. I don't know. I did not find them there, and I wouldn't be able
9 to tell you how long they were there, when they arrived, because I just
10 don't know. But be that as it may, I did not find them there.
11 Q. Did you, in your statement to the OTP, in the statement of the
12 24th and 25th of -- the 14th and 24th of June, 1996, did you state there
13 that the troops of the Uzice Corps had access to the prison for several
14 early days of the war before you arrived there?
15 A. No, I could not say that. I could not say how long they were
16 there. But the beginning of the aggression against Foca, I believe it
17 started in May, or rather April, May - I wouldn't know the date - until
18 that day, until the liberation of Foca. I believe they were there until
19 that day, but I wouldn't know. So it's April, May, and then we come to
20 June, so it's a couple of months.
21 Q. So until June?
22 A. Well, I didn't find them there, so they must have left before
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. When you came to the KP Dom, could you
25 tell us: What did the guards wear, the majority of them?
1 A. I told you, there were all kinds of uniforms, but those guards who
2 were also the guards before the war in the KP Dom in Foca, they were
3 mostly in those professional uniforms, which were dark blue. And
4 while -- and there were also some in camouflage uniforms and uniforms of
5 the former army, the Yugoslav one.
6 Q. Did you see guards go to the front?
7 A. Yes. I mean, I did not see them go, but I could see them get
8 ready for it in front of the administrative building, in full combat gear,
9 and there would be a military vehicle waiting for them, the vehicle of the
10 Bosnian Serb army.
11 Q. In front of the KP Dom, did you see military vehicles and
13 A. Quite often. They would even come into the compound, to the metal
14 shop where I worked. I remember once a car belonging to Bosnian Serbs
15 entered with a mounted anti-aircraft gun, mounted on that vehicle, and we
16 had to strengthen it, to fix it better to the floor of that military
17 vehicle. They must have been preparing it for the front. And this is a
19 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us that you were assigned to the metal
20 workshop and that there you used to see Mr. Krnojelac. And did you tell
21 the OTP investigators in 1998 the following? It is ID 275A in our
22 language and it says:
23 "As I worked in the metal workshop -- when I worked in the metal
24 workshop, he would come to pay us a visit," meaning Mr. Krnojelac. "He
25 would only greet us but would not talk to us. He treated us correctly.
1 He was quite decent with us. One could not see that he hated us. He did
2 not insult us, nor did he speak against Muslims."
3 Did you say this to OTP investigators?
4 A. Yes, that is absolutely correct. I can repeat it today, that he
5 is guilty because he served wrong, because he accepted that office.
6 Q. Members of the Krnojelac family - and you told us that you met
7 them when you worked on his house - how did they behave? How did they
8 treat you and other prisoners?
9 A. They were correct, absolutely; one could even say friendly.
10 Q. Did you meet Mr. Krnojelac's wife?
11 A. Yes, and I was very favourably impressed. I thought she was a
12 good woman.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell us, sir: Did she bring you food regularly, to
14 the house, I mean, where you worked?
15 A. Yes. Meals were regular, they were good, the quantities were
16 sufficient, and it was served in a friendly way.
17 Q. Thank you. You spoke today about how prisoners were taken for
18 beatings. Could you tell us if it only happened at night?
19 A. Yes, only at night, or rather early evening hours.
20 Q. Did you tell OTP investigators how, after a guard would arrive
21 with a list and take a person away, how he would take that person to a
22 door leading out of the compound and that, after that, that person would
23 be presumably given over to the military police?
24 A. Yes, because this mention of the military police and why we
25 thought about -- why it occurred to us was during the interrogation of
1 prisoners, because those investigators threatened us. They tried to force
2 us to own up to certain acts which they tried to attribute to us, or else
3 they would turn us over to the military police. So that is why we assumed
4 that these people were being taken over by military authorities.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, you have some time to go, have you, in
7 your cross-examination?
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour. I do
9 have some questions, yes.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I understand that, but one of us has an appointment
11 which I think, if we can adjourn a few minutes early, it would be easier
12 for the Judge to attend that appointment. So we'll adjourn now until
13 Monday at 9.30.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.57 p.m., to
16 be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of January,
17 2001, at 9.30 a.m.