Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2455

1 Tuesday, 30 January 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: FWS-159 [Resumed]

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Examined by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

11 Q. Good morning, Witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. Before we begin today, I'd just like to ask you to listen

14 carefully to the question and just answer the particular question that's

15 being asked. Do you understand?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yesterday you mentioned that you were beaten before you were taken

18 to the KP Dom and then, the day after you arrived, you were interviewed by

19 a Boro Ivanovic and a person by the name of Milorad. Also you --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Also you stated that when you arrived at the KP Dom, that you were

22 met by a -- initially you said a Risto Vukovic and later you said a Risto

23 Ivanovic. Who met you from the KP Dom when you first arrived? Was it

24 Vukovic or Ivanovic or was it both people?

25 A. Risto Ivanovic.

Page 2456

1 Q. You also mentioned yesterday that when you were interviewed that

2 one of the four people - sorry, interrogated - one of the four people in

3 the room slapped you. Who was that? Was that Boro, Milorad, or one of

4 the other two soldiers - sorry - other two people that you could not name?

5 A. Well, one of those two other people whose names I don't know, one

6 of them slapped me.

7 Q. You also mentioned that a person by the Milorad [sic] was in the

8 room. You didn't know his surname, but I'm just going to ask you a few

9 questions about him now. How old was Milorad?

10 A. About 55 years old.

11 Q. Was there anything particular about his hair that you could

12 describe?

13 A. He had sideburns. I couldn't see anything else because I was in

14 shock. So when I came in, I looked around and I only saw his sideburns

15 and nothing else, because I was in shock when I came -- when I came and I

16 saw the troops.

17 Q. Does that mean you cannot remember anything else about his

18 description?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know whether this person was carrying anything?

21 A. He had some kind of a bag.

22 Q. And what type of bag was that?

23 A. A yellowish leather one.

24 Q. Did you ever see this Milorad in the KP Dom again whilst you were

25 there?

Page 2457

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you seen this Milorad that was involved in the interrogation

3 since that time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And do you think that you would be able to recognise this person

6 if you ever saw him again?

7 A. No.

8 Q. There's one last question I'd just like to clear up. Do you know

9 what he was wearing, what clothes?

10 A. No.

11 Q. After this first interview, interrogation, were you taken back to

12 your isolation cell?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. For about how long were you kept in this same isolation cell?

15 A. Three months.

16 Q. And after being in this cell for about three months, where were

17 you taken?

18 A. After three months, I was given a bath first and then I was taken

19 to another isolation cell and I remained there until the end in that cell,

20 isolation cell.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

22 microphone? We have trouble hearing him.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you move your chair closer to the

24 microphone so that your voice is clearer for the interpreters. Thank you

25 very much.

Page 2458


2 Q. For about how long did you spend in this second isolation cell?

3 A. Well, I left in late May, to Cajnice. I was exchanged in Cajnice.

4 Q. And where were you taken in Cajnice?

5 A. To the police station, SUP building.

6 Q. And how long were you kept at the police station?

7 A. They kept me in SUP for a month, and then after a month, I was

8 exchanged.

9 Q. What month were you exchanged in 1992?

10 A. July 7th, 1993.

11 Q. Sorry, that was my mistake, 1993. You mentioned that you were

12 taken to a second isolation cell after about three months. Was that on

13 the same ground floor as the one that you were on, or was it upstairs?

14 A. It was upstairs, and then there we had beds. We also had bed

15 linen. And I stayed there for about a month. And from that isolation

16 cell, I would go to the kitchen to eat, and after eating, I would be taken

17 back to the isolation cell.

18 Q. Thank you. Was that second place that you were taken to, that

19 second isolation cell, was that larger or the same size as the first one

20 that you were taken to and spent three months in?

21 A. Larger, yes.

22 Q. I'd now like to go back to the topic of interrogations at the KP

23 Dom. After the first interrogation that you had with this Boro Ivanovic

24 and Milorad, were you ever interrogated again?

25 A. Milorad didn't interrogate me. Only Boro did.

Page 2459

1 Q. After this first interrogation, about how many other

2 interrogations were there?

3 A. About 15 interrogations.

4 Q. And did Boro conduct every one of these?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And where were these interrogations conducted? Were they

7 conducted in the same place or a different place than your first one?

8 A. Same place, where I was brought in the first day, the first

9 evening.

10 Q. And do you know which building that was in at the KP Dom?

11 A. There was the first gate and then the second gate, and right there

12 at the entrance, towards the right, towards right.

13 Q. And did this building have a name?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. I think you said that Milorad wasn't present at these other

16 interrogations; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you remember what Boro Ivanovic was wearing when you were

19 being questioned?

20 A. He had a camouflage uniform on him.

21 Q. And what questions did he ask you?

22 A. He asked me about military positions.

23 Q. During any of these questionings, were you ever told why you were

24 detained at the KP Dom?

25 A. No.

Page 2460

1 Q. Were you beaten at all during any of these other interrogations?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm referring to these other interrogations with Boro Ivanovic,

4 after the first one.

5 A. I did not understand your question. Do you mean when I was in the

6 isolation cells or while I was interrogated?

7 Q. I just mean whilst you were interrogated by Boro Ivanovic; after

8 the first interrogation, were you ever beaten by him or anyone else in the

9 room?

10 A. No.

11 Q. I would now like to ask you some questions about the solitary

12 confinement cell that you were kept in for that first three months. What

13 was the size of the cell in metres?

14 A. Approximately three and a half metres.

15 Q. Is that three and a half metres square?

16 A. Well, I can't tell you exactly. There were three of us laying

17 there, so -- and we couldn't fit there. I can't tell you exactly what the

18 size was.

19 Q. And the floor surface in that cell, what was the surface of the

20 floor?

21 A. There was no floor, only concrete there, and we had a sponge of

22 about four centimetres and a blanket.

23 Q. Were there any beds in this room?

24 A. No.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, he refers there to a sponge. I think he

Page 2461












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2462

1 means there a mattress, but you had better clear it up.

2 A. I don't know how to explain this, but it was a sponge, four

3 centimetres thick, and I slept on it. And I lived there for three months.


5 Q. Was this sponge a very, very thin mattress?

6 A. Very thin.

7 Q. Apart from this sponge or thin mattress, was there any other

8 furniture in the room, like a bed or anything else?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What else was in this cell? Was there a toilet?

11 A. In that cell there was a toilet and a faucet, water faucet.

12 Q. You mentioned that certainly at one stage there were three of you

13 in the cell. Did all three of you have a sponge mattress to sleep on or

14 was it just the one sponge mattress?

15 A. Well, how can I tell you? We had three sponge mattresses, and

16 when we would leave isolation cells, we would all take our sponge

17 mattresses with us. We spent a night there, several nights, and it

18 was -- the space was quite limited in that cell.

19 Q. Was the cell door locked?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were you able to leave the cell during the day or night?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were you allowed out for any sort of physical exercise?

24 A. No.

25 Q. I'm talking about this cell that you were kept in for about three

Page 2463

1 months. During that time, during that first three months, were you

2 allowed out for meals?

3 A. Could you please repeat the question? I didn't understand it.

4 Q. In this first cell that you were placed in and kept in for three

5 months, were you allowed out for meals or were meals delivered to your

6 cell?

7 A. No. The meals were brought into the cell.

8 Q. And who brought these meals to the cell?

9 A. Their soldier.

10 Q. Whilst you were in the cell, were you given any reading or writing

11 material?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you given anything to occupy your mind during the day and

14 night?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And what about physical exercise within the cell? Were you given

17 anything to exercise with?

18 A. No.

19 Q. What would you do in the cell during these three months?

20 A. Well, I had a small sponge and I would dust the room or just clean

21 around the room, and that's what I did for three months. I would simply

22 clean so that the time would go faster. The conditions were bad, food was

23 bad. I had constipation for 29 days and then I had diarrhoea for four

24 days.

25 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, how much did you weigh? Sorry. I

Page 2464

1 don't think I was heard there. When you arrived at the KP Dom, how much

2 did you weigh?

3 A. Seventy-six kilograms, and from there I went down to forty-six

4 kilograms, so you can imagine what kind of food we had there. When I

5 came home, my own child couldn't recognise me.

6 Q. And when did your child recognise you?

7 A. Well, when I smiled, then my child said, "Well, this is my

8 father. Here's my father."

9 Q. When you arrived at the Cajnice police station and you were kept

10 there for about a month, was the food better or worse than at the KP Dom?

11 A. The food was good in Cajnice. It was very good. There's nothing

12 else I can add.

13 Q. If you'd like to have a drink, have a glass of water, would you

14 like to do that? In the cell, were there any windows?

15 A. Yes. Could you please repeat the question? Do you mean in

16 Cajnice or in Foca?

17 Q. In the cell, the first cell that you were in for that three months

18 in Foca.

19 A. In Foca, during the first three months, there was a window but

20 quite high, so I couldn't see what was going on there. The lights were on

21 only in the hallway. There were no lights in the isolation cell.

22 Q. Were the windows on the hallway side of the cell or opposite that?

23 A. The windows were on side.

24 Q. At nighttime, was there any light coming into the cell from

25 outside? You said there was no lighting in the cell, but was there any

Page 2465

1 lighting coming from outside?

2 A. No.

3 Q. During the day, did this cell get any lighter?

4 A. Well, somewhat lighter, not much.

5 Q. Was it light enough to read, if you could?

6 A. No.

7 Q. During that three months in isolation, did you ever see the sun?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You mentioned that when you first arrived at the KP Dom and were

10 placed in the cell, there was no heating. Was any heating placed in this

11 cell over that three-month period that you were there?

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. You mentioned there was a window in the cell. Was that open or

14 shut?

15 A. Open.

16 Q. Were you able to shut it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And why not? Why couldn't you shut it?

19 A. It was high, so I couldn't close it. I had nothing to climb on.

20 Q. Can you describe how cold the room was?

21 A. Well, that room was very cold. It was February, so it was

22 definitely below zero. It was quite cold, and this is where my hearing

23 deteriorated. And prior to that, when I'd been beaten, the situation got

24 worse and now I can hardly hear.

25 Q. Did the tap water in that cell ever freeze whilst you were there?

Page 2466

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And how long did it freeze for?

3 A. Seven days.

4 Q. Were you provided water by someone else during that seven-day

5 period?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Was there any hot water in this cell?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was there any basin or cup or some sort of water holder in which

10 you could pour water into?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You mentioned that when you arrived at the KP Dom on the first

13 night, you weren't given a change of clothes. For the time that you were

14 in the cell for that three-month period, were you ever given a change of

15 clothes?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you sleep in the same clothes that you wore during the day?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did the prison authorities ever offer to wash your clothes? Did

20 anyone come in and say, "We will wash your clothes"?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you able to wash your clothes in the cell?

23 A. No.

24 Q. During the three months that you were there, were you given any

25 hygiene products at all, like soap, toilet paper, toothpaste, shampoo?

Page 2467

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever have a shower or a bath while you were in that cell

3 for that three months?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Apart from the times that you were interviewed by Boro Ivanovic,

6 did you ever leave that cell during that three-month period?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did the Red Cross ever visit you whilst you were in that cell for

9 three months?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And were you able to contact any family, friends or other

12 officials?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did any of these people contact you whilst you were at the KP Dom?

15 A. No.

16 Q. For most of the time that you were in this cell for this

17 three-month period, were you by yourself or were you sharing it with other

18 prisoners?

19 A. Well, during the first month, I was practically alone in the

20 isolation cell; and during this second month these colleagues from the

21 neighbouring isolation cell, when actually some of their colleagues would

22 get drunk, then they would bring Karisik Adil and Ljubo to sleep with me

23 in this isolation cell.

24 Q. Do you know what Ljubo's full name is?

25 A. Can you repeat this question?

Page 2468












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Page 2469

1 Q. You mentioned that an Adil and a Ljubo would come into your cell

2 occasionally. Do you know what Ljubo's full name is?

3 A. Durmisevic.

4 Q. And I think you also mentioned that they came into your cell when

5 some of their colleagues would get drunk. When you mean "their

6 colleagues," who do you mean? Colleagues of the people that were working

7 at the KP Dom or someone else?

8 A. Well, I imagine when their soldiers get drunk and don't want to go

9 out to the front line to fight, then they lock them up in isolation cells.

10 Q. And do you mean Serb or Muslim soldiers, or do you not know?

11 A. Serb soldiers.

12 Q. How often did this Adil and Ljubo come into your cell?

13 A. Well, they would come like every 15 days.

14 Q. And how often would they stay? How often would they stay in your

15 cell?

16 A. Well, it all depended on the kind of punishment that was meted

17 out. They would spend five or six days with me and then they would be

18 taken back to their isolation cells.

19 Q. And when you say "punishment that would be meted out," do you mean

20 punishment meted out to Adil and Ljubo or punishment meted out to these

21 Serb soldiers that wouldn't go to the front line?

22 A. Serb soldiers were punished, those who did not want to go to the

23 front line, and that's why they locked them up and that's why they locked

24 more of us up into the same isolation cell. They would punish them for

25 about five or six days, and then, when this punishment was over, then

Page 2470

1 again they would send us to various isolation cells where we had been

2 before.

3 Q. How old was Adil, approximately?

4 A. About 75 years old.

5 Q. And where did he come from?

6 A. Strgacine, near Rudo.

7 Q. Do you know why he was arrested?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And how old was this person called Ljubo?

10 A. Well, he was also 75, if not even more. He wasn't any younger

11 than that, not younger.

12 Q. And where was he from?

13 A. Rogatica.

14 Q. And were these two men, were they in any form of military unit?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You said that they slept in your cell occasionally for five to six

17 days at a time. Was there enough room for you all to sleep on the floor?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you able to sleep, then?

20 A. Well, we slept next to one another. We couldn't sleep on the

21 back, so we would have to sleep on the side, all of us.

22 Q. Did you notice anything about Ljubo when you first saw him, about

23 his health?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you notice?

Page 2471

1 A. Well, I noticed that his ear had been cut open to a blood vessel,

2 and he asked for first aid, but nobody came to help him and to clean that

3 wound.

4 Q. How long was the cut?

5 A. Well, I can't say exactly, but all the way to the blood vessel.

6 You know where the blood vessel is in the ear.

7 Q. Was it a deep cut or was it just a minor cut?

8 A. It was deep. Part of the ear was up and the other part was down.

9 Q. Can you describe how long this cut was in centimetres or inches?

10 A. Well, let me tell you. I didn't measure it. But try to

11 understand this. Try to understand what I said. One part went up and the

12 other part went down. They wanted them to sew his ear together, you see.

13 When I saw this, he asked me, "What should I do? This ear keeps hanging.

14 The other side is up."

15 Q. Was he ever given a bandage for this wound?

16 A. No.

17 Q. At one stage was Edib (sic) and Ljubo taken out of solitary

18 confinement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And can you describe what happened when they were taken out?

21 A. Well, I can describe it. It was lunchtime, sometime around 3.00.

22 A soldier came and read this name out. Ejub was with me then. He said:

23 Durmisevic Edib (sic) and -- Durmisevic and Fatima, some Fatima. She was

24 not there with us. I don't know. And then he went up to Adil and then he

25 came back to my place. And he said, "Did you get ready, old man?" And he

Page 2472

1 said "Yes." And Ejub kissed me and he said, "If I go to Sarajevo or to

2 Kalinovik, I'll try to rescue you."

3 Q. Is Ejub Ljubo?

4 A. I didn't understand your question. What do you mean by "Ljubo"?

5 You mean Adil, do you? Ejub; it's not Ljubo but Ejub.

6 Q. Was Ejub Durmisevic, was he in your cell when he was taken out?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was Adil in your cell at that time or was he in some other place?

9 A. No. He was in his cell.

10 Q. And was that cell next to yours?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I just would like to clear something up. A moment ago you talked

13 about a Ljubo Durmisevic being in your cell and then you referred to an

14 Ejub Durmisevic. Is Ejub and Ljubo the same name? Is Ljubo a nickname

15 for Ejub?

16 A. No, not Ljubo. Maybe I made a mistake. It was Ejub who was with

17 me, not Ljubo. Ejub was in the same room with me. And then when this

18 soldier opened this isolation cell, he said -- he said, "Durmisevic Ejub,

19 get ready." And then he went to Adil's isolation cell, called out his

20 name, and then he came back to get Ejub, and then they closed the door and

21 left.

22 Q. And you mentioned a woman by the name of Fatima. Did you see her

23 at the KP Dom?

24 A. No.

25 Q. But did you hear that she was taken out with these two on that

Page 2473

1 day?

2 A. No.

3 Q. How do you know Fatima was being called out at the same time?

4 A. Well, when he read Ejub's and Adil's name, he also read Fatima's

5 name.

6 Q. But you didn't know of a Fatima being at the KP Dom?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Since that day that they were taken out, have you ever seen them

9 again?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And do you know of anyone that has seen either of these two men

12 alive since then?

13 A. No.

14 Q. After these two men were taken out of the isolation cells, did you

15 meet any other men who were detained in these cells?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who were they?

18 A. Two more men, Starhonic Hasan, and Masic Elvedin.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have difficulty hearing the

20 witness. His microphone seems to be off.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Can we check that, please?

22 Ask another question, Mr. Smith. Ask another question.


24 Q. You mentioned that after these two people left, you met an Elvedin

25 and a Hasan. Is it Elvedin Masic and Hasan Starhonic?

Page 2474

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Was it working that time?

3 THE INTERPRETER: I think it was.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Elvedin Masic, about how old was he?

7 A. I think he was born in 1975 or something like that. Believe me, I

8 didn't ask him.

9 Q. And Hasan Starhonic, about how old was he?

10 A. Well, he's somewhere around there, too. To tell you the truth, I

11 didn't ask him either but they were roughly the same age. I was the

12 oldest of the three of us. I was older than the two of them, that is.

13 Q. And about how long did they stay in solitary confinement?

14 A. They stayed with me until I left. Then they took us out of

15 there. It was the end of April. They took us to a different isolation

16 cell. They let us have a bath, and then, towards the end of May, we were

17 taken to Cajnice.

18 Q. Whilst you were in the isolation cells, did you meet a Dzevad

19 Cosovic?

20 A. Yes. I did not meet him. He was locked up in the isolation cell

21 next door to mine, and I actually had contact with him through the wall,

22 asked him, like, "Where are you from," and things like that, but I didn't

23 have any direct contact with him.

24 Q. Do you know why he was placed in the isolation cell? Did he tell

25 you?

Page 2475












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Page 2476

1 A. No.

2 Q. And do you remember how long he was placed there?

3 A. Approximately for seven days.

4 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this person is referred to in Schedule

5 number A -- Schedule A, number 5.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


8 Q. Witness, I'd now like to show you a piece of paper. The paper has

9 a name on it and a number. And I would ask you to tell the court whether

10 you met that person or knew that person whilst you were in the isolation

11 cells. Please don't say his name.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And this person --

14 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. Is there any problem with

15 mentioning his pseudonym, to have it in the transcript?

16 MR. SMITH: No. I was just about to. His pseudonym wasn't placed

17 on his original sheet.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I realise that, but we have that as one of the

19 pseudonyms in this case. It was FWS-08.


21 Q. And that person you just referred to on that sheet was given the

22 number 8 on that sheet, is that correct?

23 A. Well, let me tell you. I mean, I did not see this, but this

24 person was mentioned, actually. This person went out to work and that

25 person was locked up in an isolation cell, and I heard this person being

Page 2477

1 beaten. But it's not that I saw this person. Actually, they only

2 mentioned this person's last name.

3 Q. Don't mention his name. But this is the person that was referred

4 to in the sheet with the number 8; is that correct?

5 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know why you're asking that question. We

6 have all agreed that that is the name on the sheet and that he is

7 identified as FWS-08. Is there any point in keeping on asking this same

8 question?

9 MR. SMITH: No, you're quite correct, Your Honour. There is no --

10 Q. You said that you heard this person being beaten. Did you

11 actually hear the beating or did you hear through someone else that he was

12 being beaten?

13 A. Well, let me tell you. This man was taken out to work. They say

14 that he also had a brother, and they were quarrelling and fighting or

15 something like that. (redacted).

16 Q. Witness, if you -- don't mention this person's name --

17 MR. SMITH: And I'll just ask that it be redacted, Your Honour.

18 Q. Please don't mention this person's name.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. It seemed to me that

22 the witness said that that person was deaf. However, this was not in the

23 transcript, so could my colleague, the Prosecutor, please check this with

24 the witness? I think he mentioned this, but I can't see it in the

25 transcript.

Page 2478

1 JUDGE HUNT: Where do you suggest that it was said?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what was said in front of

3 the isolation cell.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Page 20, line 10.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Well, Mr. Smith, that's still on the page.

6 You had better follow that up if you think that it's relevant.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. This man that was taken out to work, was he deaf?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever meet him whilst you were in the isolation cell?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did someone tell you he was beaten or did you hear the actual

13 beating yourself?

14 A. Well, I heard screams, screams from where he was being beaten.

15 Q. Was he being beaten in an isolation cell near yours or somewhere

16 else?

17 A. Well, further away from my cell. I only heard the screaming, but

18 I didn't hear in -- I didn't hear which cell it was coming from. That was

19 across.

20 Q. And do you know who was beating him?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know how long this person was in the isolation cells whilst

23 you were there?

24 A. No.

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this person is referred to as A-9 in the

Page 2479

1 schedules.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


4 Q. Witness, whilst you were in solitary confinement, were you ever

5 beaten?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And who beat you?

8 A. Serb soldiers beat me.

9 Q. About how many times were you beaten?

10 A. Approximately ten times. I was taken out to the hallway, and

11 there they hit me, kicked me in my chin, and threw a patent knife on me

12 and cut my jacket. And I was so scared that I ...

13 Q. And you were so scared that what?

14 A. Well, I can't tell you what happened to me. I was mortified with

15 fear.

16 Q. Were you so scared that you defecated in your pants? Is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. And this happened on one occasion; is that right?

20 A. That happened on several occasions. I was beaten every five days.

21 Q. Do you remember or do you know the name of anyone that beat you?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And what is that person's name?

24 A. Zoran Matovic.

25 Q. Was he involved in the beatings on every occasion, every one of

Page 2480

1 these ten occasions, or only a few of them?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. He beat you on every occasion; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Yes.

5 Q. You mentioned that some Serb soldiers were involved in the

6 beating -- involved in the beatings. Was that on every occasion that

7 Zoran Matovic and someone else was involved?

8 A. Well, Zoran Matovic.

9 Q. Can you describe the incident when Zoran Matovic beat you and a

10 patent -- and a knife was used?

11 A. Well, I can describe. He brought in his colleague to ask -- to

12 ask who remained on our side and whether they were still alive. I

13 replied -- well, I didn't know what to tell him, and he started throwing a

14 knife at me and kicked me with his boot on my chin. And I told him, "Can

15 I just go to the bathroom, sir?" And he said, "Yes." And when I came

16 back, he kept asking me, and I told him, "Well, you have a knife, you have

17 a pistol, you have a gun." And then that person who kept questioning me

18 went out and I went back to the isolation cell.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

20 microphone. The interpreters have trouble hearing him.

21 JUDGE HUNT: You have moved away from the microphone again, sir.

22 Would you bring your chair up closer and lean forward into it. Thank

23 you.


25 Q. And who kicked you on the chin? Was it Zoran Matovic or this

Page 2481

1 other person?

2 A. Zoran Matovic. This other person was standing with his cap low on

3 his head and I couldn't recognise him.

4 Q. You mentioned that this kick caused a cut on your chin. Is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did that cut leave a scar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you show the scar to the Court?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates with his hand to

12 the front of his chin a small scar, perhaps one centimetre in length.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. Was anyone else in the cell whilst you were being beaten on this

16 occasion?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And who was that?

19 A. Ejub Durmisevic.

20 Q. And what was he doing whilst this was happening?

21 A. He was seated on a sponge on which we slept, and when I came in,

22 the cell was open and he just looked at me to see what I looked like, and

23 I just put my arms in the air.

24 Q. You said that he threw a knife at you. Did the knife hit you?

25 A. That knife cut my jacket to pieces but did not hit me.

Page 2482












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2483

1 Q. When you say "cut your jacket to pieces," did it make one cut in

2 your jacket or a number of cuts?

3 A. Just one.

4 Q. What was he saying to you when you were being kicked and the knife

5 thrown at you, Zoran Matovic?

6 A. He told me, "Balija, I'm going to take your heart out with a

7 knife. I'm going to take your heart out." So I was so scared -- I went

8 through so much that I can't even talk about it.

9 Q. And on this occasion, about how many times were you hit? You said

10 you were kicked. Were you hit any further times than that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In this beating, about how many times were you hit?

13 A. Twice.

14 Q. You mentioned that Zoran Matovic beat you about ten times. On

15 these other occasions what would he do to you? How would he beat you?

16 A. Well, he beat me with his feet, hands, every three days, every

17 five days. I don't want to go into this any further. I simply -- I was

18 so scared that I ...

19 Q. I just have to ask a few more questions about this. On these

20 other occasions when you were beaten, was it in the cell or out the front

21 of the cell or some other place?

22 A. Well, it was both in the cell and in front of the cell.

23 Q. And what parts of the body were you hit and kicked?

24 A. Kidneys, spine, head. He hit me around my heart so that I have

25 serious injuries around my heart; kidneys, spine. Well, that's it.

Page 2484

1 Q. And were these beatings during the day or the night or both?

2 A. They beat me during the day and in the evening hours, before

3 dark.

4 Q. When you say "they" beat you, you mentioned Zoran Matovic. Were

5 other people involved in the beatings on these other occasions?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you resist these beatings? Did you try and stop him from

8 hitting you when he started?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. And why didn't you try and resist?

11 A. Well, I knew what would ensue if I tried to resist. Then he would

12 bring in help, and I knew what would ensue in that case.

13 Q. Did you know Zoran Matovic before you arrived at the KP Dom?

14 A. No.

15 Q. And how did you know that this person that was beating you on

16 these ten occasions was, in fact, Zoran Matovic?

17 A. I knew that he locked up his colleague that evening, when I was

18 brought in. Well, approximately five nights after that, when he locked up

19 this colleague of his, I guess that colleague was drunk, and he was

20 kicking the door all night, saying, "Zoran Matovic, fuck your mother, when

21 you lock me up as an Ustasha in this cell." And that's when I heard of

22 him.

23 Q. And did you see --

24 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, the word "Ustasha" was the

25 translation given. It may be a translation, but it won't help me

Page 2485

1 understand what was the sense of the word used. It doesn't appear in the

2 transcript. It's got a hat on it, which means a subsequent query, but my

3 hearing of it was Ustasha.


5 Q. Did you mention the word "Ustasha" a moment ago?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And who said this word, the Ustasha? Was it the Serb prisoner

8 that was being locked up?

9 A. Well, the Serb prisoner that was locked up there that night, he

10 kicked the door the entire night. He was very drunk, I guess, and I guess

11 he was upset that he was locked up there, and he mentioned his last name

12 then.

13 Q. And what does the -- what does "Ustasha" mean? What does the word

14 mean?

15 A. How could I know?

16 Q. Was Zoran Matovic on shift that night?

17 A. Well, I guess he was, since he mentioned him.

18 Q. On the 23rd of September, 1994, you made a statement to the

19 Gorazde police, the Serb security services there, and you said that the

20 person that kicked and attacked you with a knife was a person by the name

21 of Zoran Pljevaljcic. And you don't mention Zoran Matovic in the

22 statement. Can you explain that?

23 A. Well, that statement was given shortly after, and I didn't really

24 have time to look it over, and it wasn't correct.

25 Q. Do you know a person with the name Zoran Pljevaljcic?

Page 2486

1 A. No.

2 Q. Also in that statement, you refer to the incident of the knife and

3 being kicked, but you don't refer to the further incidents relating to the

4 other beatings by Zoran Matovic. Can you explain that?

5 A. I didn't understand your question.

6 Q. In that first statement that you gave to the officials in 1994,

7 you mentioned being assaulted with a knife and being kicked in the chin,

8 but you didn't mention the other beatings that you received from Zoran

9 Matovic. Can you explain why it doesn't appear in the first statement?

10 A. Well, that statement was given shortly afterwards as well, so I

11 didn't have time to give it.

12 Q. Can you give a brief description of Zoran Matovic? Was he younger

13 or older than you?

14 A. Well, I think he was younger than me.

15 Q. And do you remember what he wore?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And do you remember anything further about him, the colour of his

18 hair or how tall he was?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Whilst you were at KP Dom, did you know who the managers of the

21 prison were?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And why is that?

24 A. Because nobody told me. Well, because I don't know who the warden

25 of the KP Dom was except on that day when I was questioned by this

Page 2487

1 Milorad.

2 Q. You didn't know that this Milorad was the warden of the KP Dom at

3 that time, did you?

4 A. No.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I don't understand this question.

8 "You didn't know that this Milorad was the warden of the KP Dom at that

9 time?" When did the witness state that Milorad was the warden? The

10 Prosecutor asked in detail whether he -- the witness could describe --

11 JUDGE HUNT: The objection is a valid one because your question

12 assumes that he had said it at an earlier stage, and he hasn't. He said

13 he didn't know who Milorad was.

14 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour, and that's an assumption

15 that I didn't want to impart within that question.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I realise that it might have been a badly-worded

17 question, but, nevertheless, Mr. Bakrac's point is a good one. So that

18 question is rejected. You'd better try it again.


20 Q. On the day that you were questioned, did you know who the warden

21 of the KP Dom was? This is the day that you were questioned after you

22 arrived at the KP Dom.

23 A. The day -- that day when I was interrogated, I knew only then,

24 when I was interrogated, Boro said, "Milorad, write this down." And I

25 never saw Milorad again.

Page 2488

1 Q. On that day, did you know who the warden of the KP Dom was? Yes

2 or no.

3 A. No.

4 Q. After three months in the isolation cell, you said that you were

5 transferred to another cell, which was bigger than the one that you were

6 in.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you mentioned that was the first time, I think, that you were

9 given a bath.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long -- I think you stated that you stayed in this next room

12 for at least a month. Who else was in that room with you?

13 A. In that room, there was Hasan Starhonic and Elvedin Masic. We

14 were there together. We took a bath together, and then we left that room

15 to go to eat.

16 Q. And do you know the room number of this place that you stayed in

17 after the isolation cell?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And do you know whether it was on the ground floor or an upper

20 floor?

21 A. It was upstairs.

22 Q. And after a month, you've stated that you were taken to Cajnice

23 police station.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who were you taken with? Which other prisoners?

Page 2489












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2490

1 A. Well, there was Hasan Starhonic, and from there, we were taken to

2 Aladza, up there, and then from the female part of the prison, they took

3 four women and children and took us to Cajnice, and there was another

4 woman and four children waiting for us there.

5 Q. And where was this female prison? Was it at Velecevo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And do you know the name of this woman and the children that were

8 picked up from Velecevo?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And who took you to the Cajnice police station?

11 A. Well, Serb troops.

12 Q. Was Boro Ivanovic involved in this exchange at all, or this

13 transfer to the Cajnice police station?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And what was his involvement? What did you see?

16 A. Well, I saw -- when we were taken to the gate, they told us to

17 empty our pockets because we were going to Cajnice to be exchanged. Boro

18 was there, and another two men, and then we were put on a van, and then

19 there were three of us in the van, and we were brought to Dragocava where

20 there was this female camp, and this is how it was.

21 Q. When you say, "this female camp," is this the female prison you

22 were referring to, or some other place?

23 A. Well, yes.

24 Q. And you said, I think, that a woman and her four children were

25 picked up and then you were all taken to Cajnice.

Page 2491

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you stated earlier that you stayed at the Cajnice police

3 station for about one month.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And where were you exchanged after the one month at the police

6 station?

7 A. Well, I was exchanged at Ustipraca. I went through Rude,

8 Visegrad, and I was exchanged at Ustipraca, near the tunnel leading

9 towards Sarajevo.

10 Q. Did you see Boro Ivanovic at the Cajnice police station or did you

11 know whether he was involved in your exchange?

12 A. Well, he took me to Cajnice and there he left me. He went back to

13 Foca, and I remained there in Cajnice for a month. And then people from

14 Cajnice took me to be exchanged and, in fact, it wasn't Boro who took me

15 to be exchanged. There was other people.

16 Q. If we can just go back a moment, you said that when you were taken

17 for transfer from the KP Dom to Cajnice, you met Boro Ivanovic on the way

18 out. Who took you from your room in the KP Dom to the -- to where you met

19 Boro Ivanovic on the way out?

20 A. I don't know. I was taken by a soldier.

21 Q. And do you know the name of that soldier?

22 A. No.

23 Q. I'd now like to talk about --

24 MR. SMITH: Perhaps, Your Honour -- this is the last topic. It's

25 just in relation to his health. Do you still wish to continue over the

Page 2492

1 next few minutes? It will take about 10 minutes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: We'll give you a few minutes extra. We'll resume at

3 11.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Witness, before we move on to questions relating to your health,

9 whilst you were at the KP Dom, you said that you didn't know who the

10 management of the KP Dom was. However, did you know a person with the

11 title of Vaspitac?

12 A. No.

13 Q. I'd now like to ask you some questions about your health

14 condition, and the effects, the physical and psychological effects that

15 the beatings had on you, and I'm referring to the beatings that you

16 received on your arrest and the beatings that you received whilst you were

17 at the KP Dom, and the physical and mental effects that you may have

18 suffered as a result of the conditions at the KP Dom. I'm going to be now

19 asking you some questions about that topic. Do you understand?

20 Witness, prior to coming to the -- prior to arriving at the KP Dom

21 in 1993, did you have a good back? Was your back healthy or did you have

22 any back complaints?

23 A. No.

24 Q. After the beatings you received before you arrived at the KP Dom

25 and the beatings that you received whilst at the KP Dom and the conditions

Page 2493

1 that you endured, did you develop a back complaint?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when did that back complaint first develop? When did you

4 start to notice some problems?

5 A. When I came to the KP Dom, 20 days I could not get up. I was in

6 an isolation cell which was like a chimney. I had to hold on to the wall

7 and I had to wait for the soldier to pass by. And then if you didn't

8 manage to get your turn to have lunch or dinner, then they would say,

9 "They don't like our food," and then we would be beaten up badly. So my

10 health condition is really poor.

11 Q. As a result of your back problems, could you sleep whilst you were

12 at the KP Dom?

13 A. No. No. No.

14 Q. And what caused these back problems, in your mind?

15 A. In my opinion, because I was so badly beaten on the back and on my

16 head that in my head I've lost my memory and I've had these mental

17 problems. I start going somewhere and I don't know where I'm going,

18 actually; I don't know why I'm going, where I'm going.

19 Q. Do you still have problems with your back today?

20 A. Yes. When the weather is bad, I can't stand straight.

21 Q. Prior to being arrested and taken to the KP Dom, did you have good

22 or normal hearing?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what is the state of your hearing now in each ear?

25 A. Well, let me tell you one thing. I can't hear a thing in one

Page 2494

1 ear. I mean, that membrane, it went bust altogether. Fifty-four point

2 three per cent is the degree to which my hearing has been affected, so

3 then you know how well I can hear.

4 Q. Is it the case that you only have 54 per cent hearing in one ear

5 and no hearing in the other?

6 A. No. No. No. I mean, I don't know. I can't hear a thing on this

7 left ear. As for the right ear, my hearing is very poor. I have to put

8 my ear this way and then I can hear; and if somebody is speaking very

9 softly, I can't hear a thing.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, the figure 54.3 per cent suggests that

11 that is something he's been told by a doctor. Would it be not better for

12 you to obtain that fact? It's hearsay, but nevertheless it's some

13 evidence which would justify the figure.

14 MR. SMITH: I'll put that to him, Your Honour.

15 Q. In relation to your hearing, you said that you have only 54 per

16 cent hearing in one ear. Who told you that? Did a doctor tell you that?

17 A. My doctor.

18 Q. And when were you given that diagnosis?

19 A. I mean, I heard about this when I went for a checkup. He took a

20 picture of my ears and gave me the findings.

21 Q. And what year was that?

22 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember.

23 Q. When did your hearing problem start to develop? You said you had

24 good or normal hearing when you arrived at the KP Dom, or prior to your

25 arrest. When did these problems -- when did you start to go deaf?

Page 2495

1 A. Well, when I was at the KP Dom, then I went deaf, and this went on

2 and on until I left the KP Dom. When I left the KP Dom, I tried to go and

3 see doctors. They examined me and they gave me some kind of drops, and

4 then all of a sudden I went completely deaf on the right-hand side. He

5 took a picture of my ear and he said that my left ear was no good, that

6 the membrane had gone bust; and on the other ear, he said, "You can hear a

7 little bit, can't you?"

8 Q. And what do you believe to be the cause of the deafness? Was it

9 the beatings before you arrived at the KP Dom, the beatings that you

10 received whilst at the KP Dom, or the conditions that you endured at the

11 KP Dom, or something else? What do you think caused your hearing

12 problems?

13 A. Well, let me tell you. I was beaten up quite badly when I was

14 first apprehended. They beat me, they kicked me, they really hit me bad.

15 And then the conditions at the KP Dom were very bad. It was very cold

16 that first year when I was there and also there was a bad draft. There

17 was no heating. You know what it was like. I don't have to explain all

18 this to you again.

19 Q. I'd just like you to briefly explain these particular answers to

20 the questions to the Court. It's not necessarily for my benefit.

21 In relation to your hearing, how has that affected your life since

22 you left the KP Dom, your loss of hearing?

23 A. Well, it did affect my life. A car can hit me. Also, when I

24 watch television, I can't hear at all.

25 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, did you have any form of speech

Page 2496












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Page 2497

1 impediment, like a stutter?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Have you developed one since being detained at the KP Dom?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When you get nervous, do you have any speech problems?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you describe what those speech problems are?

8 A. I have bad problems. I get this nervousness in my head, and then

9 my entire organism gets so frightened, it's hard for me to enunciate,

10 because all of this has affected me psychologically, this KP Dom and the

11 fear I felt there.

12 Q. And how does this nervousness affect your speech?

13 A. Badly. When I get a headache, it's as if I were crazy. I find

14 fault with everyone and I can't stand the sight of anyone at home.

15 Q. Prior to arriving at the KP Dom, did you have any chest pains, any

16 problems with your chest?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you develop chest pains whilst you were at the KP Dom or

19 afterwards?

20 A. Yes. I got these pains around the heart. It drives me crazy when

21 I get these pains around the heart area, in this area here, see.

22 Q. And what caused these pains? What do you believe caused them?

23 A. Well, when they beat me, they beat me with rifle butts, kicked me

24 with their boots. All of this led to these problems. And I didn't have

25 any problems like that before I came to the KP Dom.

Page 2498

1 Q. Just going back a moment, you said that you developed a

2 nervousness from being at the KP Dom. Did you have this nervousness

3 before you arrived at the KP Dom?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And what do you believe caused this nervousness, this state of

6 nervousness, to develop?

7 A. Fear. What can I tell you? Fear. When I was taken prisoner, I

8 felt lost. I was so frightened that I could hardly speak from fear.

9 Q. I think you've briefly mentioned that your detention at the KP Dom

10 has affected you psychologically. Can you explain in more detail how it's

11 affected your behaviour?

12 A. The hygiene was poor, poor sleep, poor food. I don't have to tell

13 you all this.

14 Q. Are you seeking, or have you sought, any medical treatment for the

15 psychological effects of your detention at the KP Dom?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Have you seen a psychologist or a psychiatrist about the effects

18 of what happened to you at the KP Dom?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Since leaving the KP Dom, have you seen a doctor generally about

21 the injuries you received?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And how often have you seen a doctor about these injuries?

24 A. You mean at the KP Dom? Or when I got home?

25 Q. When you got out of the KP Dom.

Page 2499

1 A. Please repeat your question. You mean when I got home?

2 Q. Yes. When you got home.

3 A. Right. Now I understood your question. I went to see my doctor,

4 Langer [phoen], and he took a picture of my ribs and my lungs, and he

5 realised that my fifth rib was broken, there.

6 Q. And today, I mean this year, over the last year, have you received

7 any medical treatment at all?

8 A. Every year I go for these medical checkups. I go for a checkup

9 every year. I go for a checkup every six months, every three months.

10 That's what the doctors suggested to me.

11 Q. And are these physical checkups or psychological checkups?

12 A. Physical and psychological health. I'm nervous in the head. I

13 have these problems in my head, bad problems. I told you. I am always

14 nervous and I have this very poor memory. When I set out, I don't know

15 where I'm actually going. My memory is non-existent.

16 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic?

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic.

20 Q. Good day, sir. I would like to introduce myself, I'm Miroslav

21 Vasic, attorney at law, Defence counsel for the accused Krnojelac.

22 A. Good day.

23 Q. Sir, can you tell us whether you gave a statement to the Centre of

24 Public Security in Gorazde on the 23rd of September, 1994, in Gorazde?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2500

1 Q. Thank you. Have you given a statement to the investigator of the

2 OTP on the 22nd of June, 1996?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you read both statements and sign them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that in the statement that you gave to

7 the sector of the security service in Gorazde, you stated that when you

8 were first interviewed at the KP Dom, there were two persons who were

9 present, Boro Ivanovic and another person?

10 A. Well, let me tell you exactly. There were four men there, Boro

11 and Milorad and two other men. I did not know the two other men.

12 Q. Did you state to the public security station that on that

13 occasion, Boro Ivanovic was present and another policeman who beat you

14 then?

15 A. This was very fast. I don't know exactly how many statements I

16 gave. I mean, it was so fast.

17 Q. Did you also state to the investigator of the Office of the

18 Prosecutor on the 22nd of June, 1996, that on the occasion of your first

19 questioning in the KP Dom, Boro Ivanovic was present and that, during the

20 interrogation, he brought in another military policeman, another policeman

21 who beat you? Is that what you stated?

22 A. I did not hear the question, I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you read it again, remember that when you

24 are reading, you do speed up and the interpreters were having trouble

25 keeping up with you. So if you're reading something, read it slowly.

Page 2501

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. In your statement to the investigator of the OTP on the 22nd of

3 June, 1996, did you state -- this is document ID 292. This is paragraph 6

4 on page 2.

5 "On the next day, after I arrived at the KP Dom, I was

6 interrogated by Boro Ivanovic. I did not know him from before, but he

7 introduced himself by this name and said that he was a police inspector.

8 During the interrogation, he threatened me. He questioned me about Serbs

9 in the BiH army and the TO. Boro Ivanovic brought in another policeman

10 during the interrogation who beat me."

11 Did you say this?

12 A. Well, let me tell you. Yes.

13 Q. Is that what happened, then?

14 A. Yes. This is the way he put it: "If you won't tell the truth,

15 then I have my own people who cut off ears and heads if you lie."

16 Q. Thank you, sir. You said today that you were put in an isolation

17 cell. Can you tell me how long and how wide this isolation cell was, the

18 one that you were first put into?

19 A. The other one was three and a half metres and -- well, how wide

20 was it? The three men, the three of us who were there could not lie in

21 it. So I did not measure it, but I walked.

22 Q. If you said that it was approximately three and a half metres

23 long, can you tell us approximately how wide it was?

24 A. Approximately, I never measured its width, because I walked along

25 its length. I had this little sponge mattress, and I walked and used my

Page 2502

1 own steps to measure it, and I also cleaned it.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. After this isolation cell, you were transferred

3 to another room. Can you tell us where this other room was?

4 A. This other room was -- I can't tell you exactly where, on which

5 floor, but it was upstairs.

6 Q. And in which part of the building?

7 A. In the part facing town, from the ground floor on the right-hand

8 side.

9 Q. How many persons were in this room when you were brought in?

10 A. You mean this other isolation cell?

11 Q. Yes, I mean this other room.

12 A. There were three of us.

13 Q. Was any other person brought into that room subsequently?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Thank you. How big was this room? Can you tell us?

16 A. Well, let me tell you. I did not measure it. And again I tell

17 you I don't know.

18 Q. Today you spoke to us about the conditions that prevailed at the

19 KP Dom; that it was cold, that the water froze, that there was no light.

20 Did you say that in your previous statements?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigator of the OTP on

23 the 22nd of June, 1996, you did not mention any details related to

24 darkness in the cell, in the isolation cell, the freezing of water in the

25 tap, that you heard that Matovic said to you, "Balija, I'm going to cut

Page 2503












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Page 2504

1 your heart out." Can you explain why you did not say that in this

2 statement of yours?

3 A. In that statement, everything went real fast and I didn't give it

4 for a long time.

5 Q. You said that the statement at the security centre was very fast

6 and now you say that also in 1996 the statement you gave to the

7 investigator of the OTP on the 22nd of June, 1996 also went real fast.

8 Did I understand you properly?

9 A. I understood you to say that the Office of the Prosecutor in the

10 security station in Gorazde.

11 Q. No. I asked you about --

12 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Sir, when you are being asked

13 questions by Mr. Vasic here, you are both speaking in the same language.

14 It is very difficult for the interpreters to keep up with you if they have

15 to interpret both the question and the answer and you are answering the

16 question while they are still interpreting the question. So would you

17 please pause after Mr. Vasic has finished speaking before you give your

18 answer. In that way, we can all hear you far better and we can have

19 properly recorded what it is you're saying.

20 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. I asked you why you did not state this in the statement that you

23 gave to the investigator of the OTP in 1996.

24 A. Well, it went quickly when I was questioned on that occasion. It

25 went on quickly as well.

Page 2505

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it for the same reason that you did not

2 mention the occasion when a drunk colleague was kicking the door of the

3 isolation cell and screamed at Zoran Matovic?

4 A. Well, yes. It all happened quickly and it did not occur to

5 me -- I didn't really have time to mention this.

6 Q. Thank you. Today you told us that you had heard someone mention

7 the last name of the person which we marked as FWS-08, which is on the

8 paper in front of you. Can you please tell us, who did you hear this last

9 name from?

10 A. I don't know this letter. From the Serb troops that walked in the

11 hallways.

12 Q. You stated today that your hearing problems developed after your

13 imprisonment and after your detention in KP Dom. You also said you hear

14 nothing on one ear and can hear poorly on your other ear. Could you

15 please let me finish the question so that your voice does not go through,

16 your voice is protected. So can you please tell us: How did you hear the

17 guards mentioning this last name in the hallway and how could you

18 communicate with the prisoner in the neighbouring cell through the wall,

19 in view of your poor hearing?

20 A. Sir, you did not understand me. I could hear well until they

21 imprisoned me; and once I was in prison, I was beaten so badly that I

22 couldn't hear any more after that. You simply did not understand what I

23 told you.

24 Q. Well, I am -- what I am asking you pertains to this period after

25 your beating and after you were brought to the KP Dom. How is it that you

Page 2506

1 could hear this, in view of such poor hearing of yours? How could you

2 hear the conversation of the guards in the hallway and how could you

3 communicate with the prisoner in the neighbouring cell?

4 A. I could hear everything well then, but this developed after I was

5 beaten and while I stayed at KP Dom. My hearing problems started -- my

6 ears were producing this noise, and to this date it continues. It's as if

7 the planes -- the sound of airplanes; that's what I'm hearing.

8 Q. Today, sir, you said that your left membrane bust. Could you tell

9 us whether that was due to a blow?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was it while you were beaten with rifle butts in the headquarters

12 in Jabuka?

13 A. Well, I was beaten so badly that I could not get up for 15 days.

14 My ears and my head, I was all bloody when I came from Jabuka.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you mentioned two individuals, Masic

16 Elvedin and Starhonic Hasan. Can you tell us, please, if they were

17 members of the Muslim army?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were you told by them where they were arrested?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. Today, when asked by my learned colleague, you

22 discussed the approximate age of these individuals. If I were to tell you

23 that Masic Elvedin was born on 14th of September of 1972, and Starhonic

24 Hasan on 31st of May of 1966, would you agree that that was their

25 approximate age?

Page 2507

1 A. I did not ask them how old they were and whether they were members

2 of the JNA.

3 Q. Sir, I didn't ask whether they were members of the JNA. I asked

4 you whether they were members of the Muslim army.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know that Masic Elvedin was wounded during his arrest and

7 that he was treated upon coming to the KP Dom?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Are you not aware of this, or you know that he was not treated?

10 A. Well, he was with me but he didn't tell me anything.

11 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you discussed the injuries of Ejub

12 Durmisevic and the cut on his ear. Can you tell us whether you know -- if

13 you know whether he was injured before he came to KP Dom?

14 A. He was -- he sustained those injuries when he was arrested. He

15 was brought there and they took a piece of cloth and wrapped it around his

16 head, and he asked to see a doctor but nobody came to provide any medical

17 assistance.

18 Q. Who wrapped his ear; can you tell us?

19 A. Well, I guess Serb troops; those that caught him.

20 Q. Today you mentioned that you knew that Ejub Durmisevic and Adil

21 Karisik had disappeared. Can you tell us who did you -- who have you

22 talked to as to whether they had been seen anywhere?

23 A. Adil Karisik and Ejub Durmisevic were taken from the KP Dom at

24 3.00. When they came to Cajnice, I saw his wife in Gorazde, and I asked

25 her whether she had heard anything of Ejub, and she answered, "I never

Page 2508

1 heard anything."

2 Q. Thank you. Today you talked about the fear that you had when you

3 came to KP Dom. Can you tell us whether you were afraid when you were

4 arrested?

5 A. But of course. I was afraid immediately, and when I came to KP

6 Dom, my life was in question. I didn't know whether I would survive, and

7 when I was afraid, I lost the ability to speak for five or ten minutes.

8 Q. When was your life in danger; when you were arrested in Jabuka?

9 A. Both in Jabuka and in KP Dom. And they would tell me, "You were

10 lucky because you were caught by kind people, and had you been caught by

11 those who kill instantly ..." then you can imagine what kind of fear it

12 was.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. When -- in your statement, and when asked by my

14 learned friend colleague, you stated that soldiers beat you while they

15 were transporting you.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Can you please wait for me to finish the question so that your

18 voice is not carried through. So you stated that the soldiers beat you

19 while you were transferred to KP Dom. Is this when your ribs were broken?

20 A. Yes. They beat me in a car from both sides. They were beating

21 me. And I put my hands on my heart, and they pulled my hands away, and

22 then with their heels and rifle butts, they hit me, so around my heart, I

23 have serious problems.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you please tell us whether they also beat you

25 on your kidneys and back on that occasion?

Page 2509

1 A. Well, certainly, certainly, they did, on my spine and kidneys.

2 They kicked me from all sides.

3 Q. Did they also hit you with rifle butts and boots?

4 A. Rifle butts and boots, heels.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you state to the Security Centre that Boro

6 Ivanovic participated in negotiations concerning your exchange?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. While you were in Cajnice, were you interrogated by

9 the military security?

10 A. No.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honours,

12 Defence has no further questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Mr. Smith?

14 MR. SMITH: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

16 Q. Witness, you were asked why you didn't mention the conditions of

17 darkness, the freezing water, the "balija" term used by Zoran Matovic when

18 he beat you, and why you didn't mention how you knew it was Zoran Matovic

19 that beat you, in your previous statements, by my learned friend. Can you

20 tell the Court about how long it took the Bosnian authorities to take your

21 first statement? For about how many hours were you kept for questioning

22 after you were released from the KP Dom?

23 A. Well, that went on for about an hour, hour and a half. It was

24 quite fast, and I had no time to state this.

25 Q. In relation to the second statement, the first statement that you

Page 2510












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2511

1 gave to the Tribunal, I would like to read a portion of that statement out

2 to you, and can you state whether, in fact, you said this?

3 This is the 1996 statement, it's identification number 292:

4 "I've given a previous statement which is now shown to me. I've

5 now read it to refresh my memory. I confirm that it's my statement. I

6 recognise the signature. My previous statement to the police was exactly

7 what I experienced. Today I shall update my previous statement with some

8 additional information, and I refer to my previous statement which would

9 be incorporated into this statement."

10 Do you remember stating that to the Tribunal investigator, that

11 this statement would be an update of your previous one?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I just would like to ask you a couple of questions about Elvedin

14 Masic and Hasan Starhonic. You were asked by my learned friend whether or

15 not they were soldiers before being arrested at the KP Dom.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you know these men from before arriving at the KP Dom?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you know how they were arrested, the circumstances in which

20 they were arrested?

21 A. No, no.

22 Q. Well, then, how did you know that they weren't soldiers from

23 before?

24 A. Well, they came to my cells later on. I was there and I did not

25 even ask them if they were -- they had been members, because I simply

Page 2512

1 wasn't interested.

2 Q. So is it the case that you don't know whether they were soldiers

3 before arriving to the KP Dom?

4 A. I don't know.

5 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence before the

7 Tribunal. You may now leave. Please wait for a moment, however, whilst

8 the blinds are lowered so that you are able to leave the courtroom without

9 being seen by members of the public.

10 What is the situation about FWS-113 and protective measures, Ms.

11 Uertz-Retzlaff?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next witness does not have

13 any protection.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, you did promise to provide us with the

17 references in the transcript to where you have taken some issue with the

18 question of the different amounts of food given to the Serbian prisoners

19 and the Muslim prisoners. Are you able to give us those page references?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I did not turn my microphone on, Your

21 Honours. I tried to find this part where my colleague, Mr. Vasic, asked a

22 witness FWS-162, on page 1441 -- I apologise, 1439 and 1441. When my

23 colleague Vasic asked the witness why, in his previous statements, he did

24 not state that Serbs were given more food and the food was thrown away

25 while the Muslims prisoners collected that that was thrown away. This is

Page 2513

1 -- this relates to what I brought up yesterday, that this involves the

2 extra food that Serbs were given, based on the statement of this witness.

3 This is what I remembered most vividly; however, we did not have time to

4 analyse all other statements.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You're suggesting, are you, that that is a challenge

6 to that particular witness's evidence that the Serbs had better

7 conditions, better food, television, better accommodation, were able to go

8 out of their room, and that they had as much food as they wanted?

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yesterday the food was

10 discussed when you intervened on a question posed by my learned colleague,

11 and I remember that we attempted to impeach the witness, who in his

12 statements had never mentioned that the Serbs were given extra food that

13 was later on thrown away, and this is exactly what my colleague Vasic

14 asked this witness.

15 JUDGE HUNT: But you haven't asked any other witness any questions

16 about an identical statement made by them. The fact that something is not

17 referred to in an earlier statement may be relevant in the particular case

18 as to whether what he says in Court is true, but you seem to give some

19 magic to these statements that if something is not stated in the

20 statement, then it can't be accepted as being true. The fact that that

21 witness gave evidence which is identical to what every other witness in

22 the case has said rather tends to suggest that he's telling the truth,

23 despite the fact that he hadn't put it in his earlier statement.

24 You have not challenged anybody else at all, and there are, as at

25 the end of last year, eight witnesses who have expressly stated that the

Page 2514

1 food which was given to the Muslims was considerably less than that which

2 was given to the Serbs, and there hasn't been one question asked of them

3 to challenge the truth of that evidence. And I'm afraid I still remain of

4 the view that there is no real challenge to that issue at all, and it

5 seems to me that if we're going to hear another half dozen or so witnesses

6 telling us the same thing, we're wasting time. But if you can find

7 something better than what your recollection is of that cross-examination,

8 by all means come back to us, but you had better do it quickly because I

9 propose to tell the Prosecution that is not in issue in this trial.

10 Where is this witness?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --


13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This witness has actually the same name as

14 another witness we have heard at an earlier point in time. We therefore

15 suggest that we call this witness in the proceedings Dzevad S. Lojo, "S"

16 referring to his father's name, to be able to distinguish.

17 JUDGE HUNT: I hope we'll be able to remember that.

18 [The witness entered]

19 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you please make the solemn declaration in

20 the document which is being shown to you.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please.

Page 2515

1 The document with the identification and pseudonyms, headed

2 FWS-133, will be Exhibit P423 and it is under seal.

3 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

4 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

5 Q. Good day, Witness.

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. Please tell us your name.

8 A. Dzevad Lojo.

9 Q. And what is your birth date?

10 A. 18th of October, 1950.

11 Q. Where were you born?

12 A. In Foca.

13 Q. What is your ethnicity?

14 A. Muslim, Bosniak.

15 Q. Are you married?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you have children?

18 A. Yes. Three.

19 Q. Where did you live before the war?

20 A. In Foca.

21 Q. And where in Foca?

22 A. Mose Pijade Street 6, in downtown.

23 Q. Was your home close to the Hotel Zelengora?

24 A. Yes, right next to the hotel.

25 Q. What was your profession before the war?

Page 2516

1 A. Before the war, I was the director of the coal mine Miljevina.

2 Q. Since when did you have this job in the coal mine?

3 A. 1st July 1982.

4 Q. And when did you stop working there and functioning as the

5 director?

6 A. I stopped when the aggression in Foca took place, and I couldn't

7 go back to work after the 8th of April, 1992.

8 Q. Before the war, were you a member of any political party?

9 A. Before the war, I was a member of the League of Communists of

10 Yugoslavia, or rather of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. And did you later join any of the newly-formed nationalistic

12 parties?

13 A. No, I never joined any other party.

14 Q. Witness, unrelated, actually, to your evidence and to your

15 experiences, we heard the term "Ustasha" in evidence given by another

16 witness. Could you explain the term "Ustasha," what it refers to?

17 A. Well, generally, those are the inherited means of treating the

18 members of the military formations in this conflict. "Ustasha" is a

19 symbol of those who were members of the formations during the Second World

20 War. They were Croats and Muslims. And "Chetniks" was the term that was

21 used for the members of the Serbian forces during the Second World War.

22 Q. And when it was used in the '90s, was it used as an insulting

23 term?

24 A. Yes, in some way it was insulting. It symbolised the sides that

25 one took in that ethnic conflict.

Page 2517












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2518

1 JUDGE HUNT: Does it mean that "Ustasha" refers to the Croats and

2 the Muslims? It wasn't very clear from that answer. "Chetniks" is the

3 term given to the Serbs. We know that.


5 Q. And Ustasha -- you heard the question of the Presiding Judge.

6 "Ustasha," to which ethnical groups did it relate?

7 A. Muslims and Croats.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


10 Q. In April 1992 - we are now talking about April 1992 - as you lived

11 near the Hotel Zelengora, could you see the radio station in Foca?

12 A. Well, before the war, the radio station moved to the former JNA

13 hall, which was right across from my apartment.

14 Q. And the radio station in Foca, was it taken over when the war

15 started?

16 A. On the morning of the 8th of April, people were supposed to go to

17 work. At 8.00, or rather already at 7.00, when the driver from the mine

18 was supposed to come and pick me up, I saw, on the windows of the JNA

19 hall, soldiers in camouflage uniform and with weapons, on those windows.

20 Q. And did they ever take over the Foca radio? Do you know?

21 A. Yes. At that moment, that morning, some paramilitary formations

22 from the Serb side had already covered certain points.

23 Q. Did you hear any of the broadcasts of the Radio Foca after the

24 takeover?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2519

1 Q. Did you hear anything related to the functioning of the Foca

2 administration?

3 A. Yes. This radio at first appealed during the first two or three

4 days of the conflict for bringing the conflict to a halt while the SDA and

5 the SDS were still negotiating.

6 Q. And after the fighting, did you hear any information on the radio

7 how the Foca administration would function for the future?

8 A. Yes. We did not listen to this radio very often because of all

9 the ethnic bias that was expressed there, but there was a programme where

10 Velibor Ostojic spoke, one of the leaders of the SDS, at republican level,

11 that is. He said to the Serb people that from that moment onwards, Foca

12 would flourish from an economic, political, and cultural point of view.

13 Q. When did you -- sorry. When did you hear this being broadcast?

14 A. Well, let us say that it was in the second half of April.

15 Q. Did he say anything in relation to the future administration in

16 the municipality?

17 A. It went without saying that the entire territory of the

18 municipality of Foca would be run by one people, that is, the Serb people.

19 Q. Did Mr. Ostojic say that; and if so, what did he say?

20 A. It is hard for me now, with all this time that has gone by, to

21 repeat exactly what he said, but he did say what I already mentioned to

22 you, that with the SDS at its helm, the overall administration of Foca

23 would be set up from a political and economic point of view.

24 Q. When the war started, where were you?

25 A. I was in my apartment.

Page 2520

1 Q. Did you participate in the fighting at any point in time?

2 A. No. No. No. I was in my apartment all the time.

3 Q. Did you have a weapon?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you participate in any negotiations related to a cease-fire?

6 A. No. I did not have an opportunity to do so because I was not a

7 member of the SDA, that is to say, of any party that would be authorised

8 to take part in the negotiations.

9 Q. Was a commission for monitoring the cease-fire considered or even

10 established?

11 A. As I said previously, until the 8th of April, in the evening,

12 according to what I heard over the telephone, and this was also on the

13 radio, the leaders of the SDA and the SDS tried to reach an agreement in

14 the municipality building for shooting to stop within and around Foca. To

15 that end, allegedly, a cease-fire had been agreed upon which would, during

16 those first few days, from the 8th of April onwards, be under the

17 monitoring of joint police patrols. In order to make it possible to

18 monitor the cease-fire and possibly to intervene, it was proposed to set

19 up a commission consisting of three members from the Serb ethnic group and

20 three members of the Muslim ethnic group, and I was one of the three

21 Muslims representatives.

22 Q. Who proposed you as a member?

23 A. Well, the Muslim side, which was represented by the SDA.

24 Q. Why were you appointed to this commission although you were not an

25 SDA member?

Page 2521

1 A. Well, I assume that at that time when these proposals were being

2 made, both sides were required to propose persons who would be respected

3 by the other side, prominent citizens of Foca, and I believe that these

4 were the criteria involved in the setting up of this commission.

5 Q. Who else was in this commission? Do you recall anyone, the name?

6 A. (redacted), I remember that name from the Muslim side. He was

7 deputy commander of the police at that time. And on the Serb side, Nade

8 Radovic. I can't remember the others.

9 Q. Nade Radovic, who was he?

10 A. Nade Radovic. It's a man. At that time, he was the director of

11 Temika, a factory that made household appliances.

12 Q. Who nominated the Serbs, this person? Do you know that?

13 A. Well, I don't know, but I assume that at this meeting where the

14 members of the SDA and the SDS had put forth their proposals, the Serb

15 side, the SDS proposed him, and the Muslim side proposed me.

16 Q. This Mr. Radovic, was he an SDS member?

17 A. I don't know about his party affiliation. He was a reserve

18 captain, and allegedly, at the beginning of the war, he was a member of

19 these Serb paramilitary forces.

20 Q. At that time, did SDS Crisis Staff operate in Foca?

21 A. He never publicly declared himself. It was never said that there

22 was an official SDS Crisis Staff, but we all realised that something like

23 that did exist and that it dealt with charting the policy that was to be

24 pursued vis-à-vis the Muslim population; that is to say that it was

25 involved in preparations for war and the way in which this war would be

Page 2522

1 waged.

2 Q. How do you know that? What was your information about this Crisis

3 Staff?

4 A. Well, as director of the mine, I often had the opportunity of

5 trying to forestall certain situations that could go really bad. Within

6 my company, I had persons who were ethnic Serbs and members of the SDS and

7 of the SPO, the Serb Renewal Movement, and I also had Muslims employed

8 there who were members of the SDA. So I tried in this situation, in March

9 and April, to help them find a common tongue in terms of the mine itself

10 and the area that was covered by the mine. These were localities,

11 Miljevina, Jelec, Kozja Luka, Kratine. That was the neighbourhood. I

12 concentrated on that primarily after the referendum which was held on the

13 1st and 2nd of March, the referendum on the independence of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because immediately after that referendum, roadblocks

15 were set in Miljevina on the road to Sarajevo, by the SDS.

16 Q. Witness, we do not have to go into these political details because

17 it's not in dispute here. My question was actually how did you hear about

18 the Crisis Staff, the SDS Crisis Staff? Who told you about it or what

19 other information did you have?

20 A. I got this information from Taib Lojo, who was President of the

21 municipality, and other members of the SDA, that the Serb side, the SDS,

22 had its Crisis Staff.

23 Q. And do you know who was a member of this SDS Crisis Staff? Did

24 you find out?

25 A. Well, ex officio, the president of the SDS at that time, Miro

Page 2523

1 Stanic, was a member of the Crisis Staff, as well as Petko Cancar.

2 According to the information received subsequently, when people were first

3 taken to the camp, Zdravko Begovic was too, as well as Nade Radovic, Dr.

4 Mandic, and others. I can't remember exactly now.

5 Q. Dr. Mandic, who was he?

6 A. He was a neuropsychiatrist, a specialist at the Foca hospital.

7 Q. Was he an SDS member, do you know?

8 A. Yes, yes, a member of the SDS, yes.

9 Q. Do you know which function he has in this SDS Crisis Staff?

10 A. I don't know exactly, no.

11 Q. Did you ever try -- did you ever contact members of this Crisis

12 Staff, of this SDS Crisis Staff? Did you ever talk to them?

13 A. Not in that sense, as to members of the Crisis Staff, but when

14 they first came into power, as the SDS, I contacted them often, as

15 persons.

16 Q. Whom did you, for instance, contact?

17 A. Well, Miro Stanic, Petko Cancar, and others on various occasions.

18 That is, when these authorities were established. So during the Serb

19 holidays, Christmas and New Year, they had receptions. This was in 1991

20 and in 1992.

21 Q. Immediately before the outbreak of the war, and even after that,

22 did you speak to any of these persons, these SDS persons?

23 A. No.

24 Q. When the war started, did you try to leave Foca?

25 A. At first, no. During the first few days, we thought that the

Page 2524












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2525

1 situation would calm down and that it would not escalate into what it

2 indeed escalated into later. As director of the mine, I was duty-bound to

3 take care of this complex process of production so that there would not be

4 major damage because it could all be flooded. However, when I saw that

5 things were getting out of control, and that in that situation objectively

6 one could not survive in Foca, I tried to get out, but it was impossible

7 because of the situation as it then was, and also due to the position of

8 my own apartment.

9 Q. And why was it impossible, from your apartment, to get out?

10 A. From the very beginning, the apartment was in the area that was

11 under the control of the Serb forces, the JNA hall, and there were snipers

12 around the neighbouring buildings, and also on the bridges across the

13 Cehotina and the Drina rivers. It was impossible to cross there any more,

14 I mean to cross them safely, that is.

15 Q. Were you arrested?

16 A. I was arrested on the 23rd of May, 1992. That is when I was taken

17 away from home.

18 Q. Where did you spend the time from the 8th of April, 1992, until

19 your arrest?

20 A. I was in the apartment all the time.

21 Q. Why did you not go to work? I mean after the initial fighting had

22 stopped.

23 A. As I said, after a few days, roadblocks were set and it was

24 impossible to communicate between Foca and Miljevina. The driver didn't

25 come either. And also, when Foca fell seven or eight days later, the SDS,

Page 2526

1 or rather their leadership, appointed another person, an ethnic Serb, as

2 director. In that period, all Muslims stopped working at all jobs. They

3 were simply returned from work.

4 Q. How did you get the information that you were no longer the

5 director but someone else?

6 A. Nobody informed me about this officially. They simply appointed

7 their own management, without any kind of explanation or without providing

8 any information to that effect.

9 Q. How did you learn it?

10 A. Well, I learned about it because telephones were still operating

11 until the 2nd or 3rd of May in Foca, so I could make telephone calls to my

12 own mine.

13 Q. And who was the new director of the mine?

14 A. Slavko Stankovic, the former director of the mine, who was

15 director before me.

16 Q. And he was a Serb?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you name us any other Muslim directors of companies that lost

19 their position at that time?

20 A. Well, all positions, political and also in various firms, the

21 mine, Focatrans, the regional medical centre, schools, the Sutjeska

22 National Park, everywhere, in all companies. There were no exceptions.

23 Q. And were they always replaced by Serbs, these former Muslim

24 directors?

25 A. Yes. Only ethnic Serbs. Perhaps somebody might have been a

Page 2527

1 Montenegrin, I don't know about that.

2 Q. What about the Muslim workers? Could they continue to work?

3 A. No. Everybody was sent home; cleaners, medical staff, teachers,

4 everybody.

5 Q. How do you know that?

6 A. My wife is a nurse, and she could no longer go to the medical

7 centre.

8 Q. And did you also hear that from your Muslim neighbours?

9 A. Yes, yes. All of us who remained in our apartments were prevented

10 from going to work.

11 Q. You said they were prevented from going to work. Does that mean

12 movement was restricted, officially restricted?

13 A. At the beginning of the war, there could be some movement.

14 Usually it was women for the most part, and a man or two. It was not safe

15 or advisable for men to move about town at that time.

16 Q. Was there also a -- was it officially also forbidden to -- for

17 Muslims to move around at one point in time, or was --

18 A. Yes, yes. That happened sometime around the end of April, after

19 an event. Since there were combat contacts in one area, a group of Serb

20 soldiers were killed, and from that moment onwards, it was broadcast over

21 the radio, and also there was a police car with a megaphone stating that

22 all movement in Foca was forbidden.

23 Q. All movement of all ethnic groups or were Muslims targeted

24 specifically?

25 A. Muslims only. There were very few Croats, so no mention was made

Page 2528

1 of them, but that was understood.

2 Q. While you were in your home, was it ever searched?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And when was that and what happened?

5 A. Again, this was the end of April, beginning of May. Apartments

6 were being searched by Serb soldiers in uniform. Usually there would be

7 three of them respectively. They would be searching apartments, looking

8 for weapons, reportedly.

9 Q. When you say apartments were searched, all apartments or were

10 Muslims and Croats targeted specifically?

11 A. I don't know about the rest, but I know that, in my building, I

12 mean at our entranceway, there is only one Serb apartment, but it's only

13 the Muslim apartments that were searched.

14 Q. How often was your own apartment searched?

15 A. While I was still at that apartment, once, and afterwards, they

16 came again -- that's what my wife told me -- but simply to see what was

17 going on.

18 Q. And those soldiers that searched your apartment, in which capacity

19 did they do that? Were they military policemen or just the normal

20 soldiers?

21 A. In my case, they had no authorisation whatsoever. They simply

22 went from one apartment to another. Two of them had white pieces of cloth

23 on their sleeves saying that they were members of the military police.

24 Q. After the fighting had ceased, did you see houses burn?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2529

1 Q. Could you see which houses burned, if it was Muslim or Serb houses

2 or both?

3 A. Well, this is the way it was: During this first attack, this

4 first fighting that took place from the 8th of April onwards, it is mainly

5 Muslim houses in Prijeka Carsija, Careva that were burning. You could see

6 the smoke from my apartment. And also in my neighbourhood, behind the JNA

7 hall, a house burned down behind the local cinema. After the combat

8 contacts I mentioned, until the 15th of April, in Donje Polje there were

9 Serb houses that burned down as well.

10 Q. You mentioned this Prijeka Carsija. What was it?

11 A. Prijeka Carsija is an old part of town, dating back to the Turkish

12 times. It is resemblant of Bascarsija in Sarajevo. That is where there

13 were small shops, small craftsmen's shops and things like that.

14 Q. While you were in your apartment, did you get any information what

15 was going on in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. Well, we could follow Radio Sarajevo for as long as we could hear

17 it, and also television. Later on, we could only follow the Serb TV

18 programme.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think it's 1.00.

20 JUDGE HUNT: It is indeed. We'll resume at 2.30.

21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.





Page 2530

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. Witness, before the break, you mentioned that you could follow

7 Radio Sarajevo for a while. What information did you get about what

8 happened to Muslims in other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. Well, at the time, it was -- we could hear on broadcast the events

10 around Sarajevo, as well as municipalities in the southeastern part of

11 Bosnia, Foca, Rogatica, Visegrad and Cajnice.

12 Q. And what happened to the Muslims in these areas that you just

13 mentioned, do you know?

14 A. The same what was going on as Foca. In those areas, ethnic

15 cleansing was conducted, in Visegrad, Cajnice, Rudo, in Rogatica, whereas

16 Gorazde, as an enclave, was saved because people in that area were

17 organised better than people in other areas.

18 Q. And when you say "ethnic cleansing," what do you mean? What does

19 that include?

20 A. That means that all those who are not members of Serb or

21 Montenegrin people were expelled, locked up or eliminated.

22 Q. And when you say "eliminated," do you mean killed actually?

23 A. Killed, yes.

24 Q. You said that you were arrested on the 23rd of May in 1992. Were

25 you the first to be arrested in your apartment block or was -- were other

Page 2531












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2532

1 persons arrested before that?

2 A. In that building, none of the tenants were arrested, but a person

3 who lived in my apartment was arrested because this person came from

4 Aladza neighbourhood, because he couldn't live there any more, so he moved

5 to my apartment.

6 Q. And who was that, and when was he arrested?

7 A. A Muslim, on May 19th.

8 Q. And what was the name of this person? But please, before you tell

9 us the name, please check on the list -- you have a list in front of you,

10 and if it is a person from the list, then please give us only the code

11 number and not the name.

12 A. No, not on the list, Selimovic Erkrem.

13 Q. And who was that?

14 A. An elderly gentleman who worked in the insurance company, from

15 Sarajevo.

16 Q. And he was -- to clarify, was he arrested in your apartment?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And who arrested him?

19 A. Same people who three days later, or rather six days later, came

20 to pick me up.

21 Q. And who picked you up?

22 A. Vukovic Zoran came to pick me up, and one of the Banovic brothers

23 with a nickname Bota.

24 Q. In which capacity did they arrest you? Were they soldiers,

25 military police, normal police?

Page 2533

1 A. They wore military camouflage uniforms, and I don't know which

2 position they held in the hierarchy.

3 Q. Did they tell you on which order they arrested you, who sent them

4 to you?

5 A. At that moment, no. They simply told me to come along with them,

6 that they were taking me to KP Dom. This is what this entity was called

7 prior to the war. This was a prison. They also told me that I would be

8 safer there than in my own apartment.

9 Q. Did they have an arrest warrant or any other piece of paper to

10 present to you?

11 A. No. As far as I know, they didn't have it in my case or in the

12 case of anybody else.

13 Q. Were you the only person arrested on this occasion or were others

14 taken to the KP Dom together with you?

15 A. On that occasion, I was the only one who was taken away. There

16 was a car, a Mazda 323, that they took me in, and it was a car which

17 belonged to the gentleman that I described to you previously, and I was

18 the only one who was taken there on that occasion.

19 Q. How long did you stay at the KP Dom?

20 A. I remained there from May 23rd until April 4th of 1993,

21 approximately 317 days.

22 Q. Did you ever find out why you were arrested?

23 A. No. One couldn't find that out.

24 Q. Were you ever interrogated when you were at the KP Dom?

25 A. No. I was never interrogated. From the moment I was arrested,

Page 2534

1 nobody ever talked to me, nobody ever asked me anything.

2 Q. We have heard from other detainees and witnesses that they were

3 interrogated. Why were you not interrogated? Do you know that?

4 A. I don't know why they didn't interrogate me. However, when I came

5 to KP Dom, other detainees told me that the interrogations were being

6 conducted and that my turn would come as well. Because prior to that, all

7 of them had been interrogated, and some people remained that had not been

8 interrogated yet. However, seven days after my arrival there, those

9 interrogations had stopped, those interrogations that had been carried out

10 prior to my arrival.

11 Q. Were you ever charged or convicted while you were in the KP Dom?

12 A. As far as I know, nobody was indicted there and there was no

13 proceedings instigated against anybody who was there.

14 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, who received you?

15 A. The officer on duty. And there was a room at the entrance into

16 the main building; to the left and to the right were the services of the

17 former prison; and then there is an area where people were searched and

18 then, after that, released into the compound.

19 Q. And were you searched yourself?

20 A. Yes. One of those guards instructed me to empty my pockets, take

21 off my shoes, my socks. He checked all of the documents that I had on

22 me. And since I didn't have anything of value, he returned those things

23 to me. That was my identity card, my driver's licence, and nothing else.

24 Well, there was my cheque card pertaining to my account with Privredna

25 Bank.

Page 2535

1 Q. Yes. And were you registered? Were your particulars taken down?

2 A. As far as I know from the civilian times, there was a reception

3 room to the left. Nobody took me there. Nobody took my personal

4 details. I know that there was a procedure involving that. I know this

5 from the stories told by others.

6 Q. And those persons that dealt with you on your arrival, were they

7 their usual prison guards or were they soldiers?

8 A. Those were guards in uniforms from civilian times, which means

9 that they wore blue uniforms, not military uniforms.

10 Q. Where were you taken within the KP Dom? Into which room?

11 A. The officer on duty, the guard on duty who was in the compound,

12 came. His name was Pljevaljcic, Vlatko. And he took me to Room 16.

13 Q. Room 16. On which floor was it?

14 A. Ground floor.

15 Q. Do you know why you were taken to Room 16 and not to any other

16 room?

17 A. I don't know. I think that they just filled up the rooms as

18 people came along.

19 Q. Could you see that there were detainees in other rooms when you

20 arrived? Were the other rooms full? Could you see?

21 A. When I walked in, I couldn't see how many people were in rooms.

22 However, I could see the detainees through the windows.

23 Q. How long did you stay in Room 16?

24 A. I stayed in Room 16 until the end of October, until October 31st

25 of 1992.

Page 2536

1 Q. And how many detainees were with you together in that room?

2 A. The greatest number of detainees in that room was 78.

3 Q. And where were you taken from Room 16 after October 1992?

4 A. I was moved to a room above it, which is Room 18.

5 Q. And how long did you stay there?

6 A. I stayed there for approximately a month.

7 Q. And how many detainees were with you in this room, 18?

8 A. In that room, there were some 40 to 50 people. I don't know the

9 exact number.

10 Q. Where were you taken next? Into which room?

11 A. After that, they took 12 of us from various rooms and they took us

12 to Room 21.

13 Q. Where was this room? Was it in the same building as the other two

14 rooms?

15 A. Same building, same entrance, just a floor above and to the

16 right.

17 Q. How many -- you said 12, 12 of you were taken there. What kind of

18 detainees were taken there? Was it a selected group?

19 A. Well, it turned out to be a selected group - three doctors among

20 them, two engineers, teachers, economists - people with education, except

21 for three men.

22 Q. And do you know why you were singled out, this group of

23 intellectuals, why were you singled out from the other rooms?

24 A. I don't know why. I can only suppose that the reason for that was

25 perhaps communication with other people who remained in these other two

Page 2537

1 rooms, 16 and 18.

2 Q. What do you mean by "communication"? Did they want to avoid

3 communications with you?

4 A. Well, they tried to prevent both external and internal

5 communication in all possible ways. They wanted us to be as isolated as

6 possible. They didn't want us to encourage each other because there were

7 people that had some psychological difficulties that went through some

8 difficult times and we would encourage them.

9 Q. Did you actually encourage people, and if so, how? How did you do

10 that?

11 A. Well, as far as I could, I tried to spread optimism around, to

12 tell people that everything would take a good turn because, at that time,

13 we supposed that most of us that were taken away were released. We didn't

14 know what really happened to them.

15 Q. And how long did you stay in Room 21?

16 A. I stayed there until April 4th, which is when I was taken away.

17 Q. Those people you met in the various rooms, what ethnicity did they

18 have?

19 A. They were all Muslims, almost, maybe two or three gypsies, some

20 Albanians, and two or three Croats.

21 Q. And the variety of age of these detainees, what was it? Well, who

22 was the youngest and who the oldest?

23 A. Fifteen to 80 years.

24 Q. Were you all civilians or was there any soldier, Bosnian soldier,

25 among you?

Page 2538












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2539

1 A. Those who were apprehended, that were brought in in April, May,

2 June, were mostly civilians who were brought in from their homes, from the

3 streets, from hospital, from their offices. Later on, they were bringing

4 in wounded, allegedly from Gorazde and other areas where they had been

5 imprisoned. However, they were in isolation cells and there were very few

6 of them, perhaps only a couple.

7 Q. Were sick people -- detainees among you, in the rooms?

8 A. Yes, yes. In Room 12, where we were transferred, we found there

9 four elderly men who had been brought in in August from Miljevina.

10 Q. You just said Room 12. Is this the --

11 A. I apologise. The room was 21. There were 12 of us. There were

12 12 of us brought in there. And when we came, we found four men there.

13 Q. You -- please have a look at the list and do you know any

14 particular person who was sick that you met in the rooms?

15 A. Not on this list, but on my list, there was Fehim Cengic, (redacted)

16 (redacted)-- no, no. Can I consult my document?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness, as one of the

18 previous witnesses this week, has also compiled documents that are

19 actually in the trial binders, and they are the document 215 and 215A,

20 which would be the translation, and I assume that the witness has this

21 document in front of him and would like to consult them.

22 JUDGE HUNT: I have little doubt that Mr. Bakrac will ask to see

23 the original to compare it with the copy, and he may have a justification

24 for doing so because the last time the copy didn't quite accord with the

25 original.

Page 2540


2 JUDGE HUNT: So if you would show Mr. Bakrac the original so he

3 can compare it with document 215.


5 Q. Witness, the Defence counsel --

6 A. I think that you have it.

7 Q. Yes, I have copies. Let's first -- if you find out the document

8 -- I have here a document in handwriting, not printed but handwriting.

9 Do you have this document with you?

10 A. No. I turned over the original, and what I have is a document

11 that was -- that is handwritten and written in printed letters.

12 JUDGE HUNT: You mean it's something different from document 215?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, it's actually -- document 215 consists of

14 two different sets of documents. One is in handwriting, printed -- in

15 printed letters but still handwriting, and the other one is also

16 handwriting but with a different pen and with -- in handwriting as a

17 person writes.

18 Maybe it's easier for the witness to check when we've put a set of

19 documents -- show him first what we have in the trial binders and let him

20 look at what he has. 215, the handwriting set of documents, starting

21 actually --

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes Mr. Bakrac?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps it wouldn't be

24 a bad idea to see if the witness could perhaps remember before he's

25 allowed to look into the document. Perhaps the witness can reproduce,

Page 2541

1 based on his memory, who was where.

2 JUDGE HUNT: But that, if I may say so, overlooks the whole of

3 this procedure. If you want him to undergo a memory test, what does that

4 prove? That he can remember things well. If we accept his evidence --

5 you can challenge it if you like, but if we accept his evidence that he

6 made these notes at an early stage, why shouldn't we have the benefit of

7 them?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I simply want

9 to see if the witness could initially perhaps remember this on his own,

10 and, if not, then he could probably look into his notes.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, unless you can persuade us that this is some

12 form of memory test to see how long people can remember things, I don't

13 see any value in that, frankly, but you will have to get the provenance of

14 the notes, if I may so describe it; when he made them.


16 JUDGE HUNT: And let's see when he made them to see whether they

17 have a better value than a memory test today.


19 Q. Please have a look at the handwritten with the dark pen, and

20 please look at it and then tell -- when did you make these notes?

21 A. I made those notes in April, in Zagreb, or rather, Samobor. It

22 was in 1993.

23 Q. And why did you make these notes?

24 A. When I left the camp and went back to my family, when my wife

25 asked me where her two brothers were -- when I asked her, she said that

Page 2542

1 she had not heard from them, and they left supposedly for an exchange in

2 August and September of 1992. And this prompted me to verify what had

3 happened with the others, and I concluded that most of the people that

4 went supposedly for an exchange are missing.

5 Then I attempted to compile a list and to distribute it to all of

6 those who could perhaps check what happened to these people, because I was

7 absent from the front line and Bosnia was isolated in the communication

8 sense. And then I wrote this down about the events, about people, and

9 through Split I forwarded it to Sarajevo so that it can be of assistance,

10 so that it could be used as a supplement to the statements of other

11 witnesses.

12 Q. And when you wrote these notes, was it from your own memory or did

13 you ask other people?

14 A. This was compiled based on my own memory, because when we were

15 leaving the camp, we were not allowed to take anything with us. They were

16 taking everything away from us.

17 Q. And you said you forwarded it to others. To whom did you actually

18 forward your notes?

19 A. Above -- on the top of this sheet there is a name. I don't know

20 this person, but it is stated here "for Isanovic, Zaim."

21 Q. And who was that?

22 A. I don't know this person. This was simply an intermediary who was

23 in the position to forward this information to Sarajevo.

24 Q. And it says here on the document - actually, on the top of it,

25 "for Amira Imamovic." Who would that be?

Page 2543

1 A. It's stated "Amira Isanovic," and then she in turn was supposed to

2 forward it to Emir Imamovic.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you. And what did you actually want to happen with

4 your notes that you sent to this person in Sarajevo?

5 A. I wanted this to serve as a document that could assist the

6 relevant bodies that were researching what happened to the missing persons

7 that were researching the camps, and I also wanted to determine what was

8 the fate of these people that were taken away.

9 Q. And we have also a document here with printed --

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can this be shown to the witness as well?

11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the one you've been dealing with is the one

12 headed "Information"; is that right?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: That's the one you described as having a heavy pen.


16 JUDGE HUNT: It's joined-up handwriting.


18 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the next one is headed, as I understand it,

19 names with dates, and that's the one in printed handwriting.


21 JUDGE HUNT: Right.


23 Q. If you would please look at this document in printed writing.

24 When did you write this? Is it -- first of all, is it your handwriting?

25 A. Yes. Yes, it's mine, but it's just that I tried to take care of

Page 2544

1 these previous documents in this way. In the meantime, I learned some

2 more names, so this piece of information contains some more names than the

3 previous one did.

4 Q. When did you write this particular document?

5 A. Also in 1993, immediately after the talks I had in May, at the Red

6 Cross in Zagreb.

7 Q. And you said that you learned some more names. How did you learn

8 these more names? Was it again from your memory or were these names

9 mentioned to you by other people?

10 A. There were two other men in Zagreb with me who had been in the

11 camp with me before that, but also I got a lot of information from the

12 International Red Cross. This lady there had in her computer a survey of

13 all persons who had been registered before that, either through the Serb

14 authorities, as far as Foca was concerned, at least, or also in terms of

15 Red Cross visits. However, in Foca there hadn't been any such thing

16 before that. But then in the computer there were some names, and I had

17 not realised that before, and it says: By these names, such-and-such a

18 person is in camp, according to the register of the Serb authorities.

19 Q. And when you wrote these particular notes related to these

20 additional persons, did you remember these persons and did you remember

21 when they were taken away, or did you get this information otherwise?

22 A. Yes. No. I knew. In the previous information, I wrote one name,

23 two names, five names, whatever, but I wrote the number of these persons.

24 I could not have known all the names and surnames of the persons from

25 other rooms who had not had direct contact with me. Usually there would

Page 2545












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 2546

1 be names. For example, one, two persons from my room. Because when

2 people were being taken away, their names were usually called out from

3 different rooms.

4 Q. Do you have the copies or an example of these two documents that

5 were just shown to you within your notes, that you have today with you?

6 JUDGE HUNT: What do you mean, "examples"?


8 Q. These two documents, these two documents that you have just looked

9 onto, do you have either the original or your personal copy within your

10 notes that you today brought to the Court?

11 A. No. No. I have the same copies that you have because I handed in

12 the originals.

13 Q. Yes, but the Defence counsel would like to check the documents

14 that you brought in today to see if it is the same.

15 JUDGE HUNT: No. I think that what he would like to see is the

16 original document to compare it with what is now being used as a copy, and

17 that's a justifiable request.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but --

19 JUDGE HUNT: He says that he handed them in to the Prosecution, or

20 at least to the investigators.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but this is what we actually have in the

22 trial binders. I mean, we have to go back to the Evidence Unit if we

23 really want to see the originals.


25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't have the originals now on me, and I

Page 2547

1 would have to find someone to go to the Evidence Unit and get the

2 originals. I don't know how long this will last.

3 JUDGE HUNT: You know, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, this has been raised

4 before other Trial Chambers, but we are entitled to the original

5 documents.


7 JUDGE HUNT: And the Prosecution's claim to have some sort of

8 ownership in the exhibits is not right. I'm not suggesting that's why

9 you've done it, but there has to be a recognition that originals should be

10 produced in Court wherever possible.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I actually thought the witness would have the

12 originals.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I understand that, but he says he's given them to the

14 Prosecution or to its investigators, so I think they should be provided.

15 That doesn't mean we can't proceed with the right of Mr. Bakrac to check

16 them against the originals later. First of all, we've got to hear what

17 Mr. Bakrac wants to say about the use of these documents at all. But at

18 some stage he must be entitled to check them against the original, if only

19 because we have, unfortunately, had some copies which are not true copies.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, we will provide it

21 tomorrow. I hope we can -- I think we will be able to get it as soon as

22 that.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, Mr. Bakrac, here we have two documents. I

24 think they can be dealt with separately. The first one was of the

25 witness's own composition and he wrote them in April 1993. Now, why

Page 2548

1 should we not allow him to rely upon those notes rather than put him

2 through some memory test of dates and names?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness explained

4 just now the way in which this was done, and the Defence is not opposed to

5 this at all. We thought that it would perhaps be more expedient and more

6 useful for the Defence if we were to check this witness's credibility to

7 see whether he recalls the facts that he is talking about.

8 We understand this problem with the photocopies as well. We know

9 that sometimes originals are not accessible. We know that there are

10 photocopies, and the Defence will probably have situations in which it

11 will not be able to provide originals but photocopies only. So we do not

12 insist on this. We do not insist on matching this with the original

13 before the witness says what he has to say.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. But in relation to your suggestion that

15 you wanted to test his credibility, this is something which we run into

16 all the time in these cases. Sometimes, as I said earlier, it is an issue

17 of credibility as to whether or not something had been put in a statement

18 given to a Prosecution investigator back when first investigated but then

19 gives evidence in Court here. That is relevant to credit. But to suggest

20 that it goes to a witness's credit that he can't remember details such as

21 this which he recorded back in 1993 today seems to me to be a completely

22 wrong approach to how you could cross-examine a witness. It could be no

23 suggestion that he is not telling the truth if he is unable to reproduce

24 that detail now. It may say something for his memory, but that doesn't

25 mean that he's not telling the truth.

Page 2549

1 Now, we are interested in the truth, and surely the truth is more

2 likely to have been recorded back in 1993 than reproduced by memory now.

3 So unless you can produce some better argument, in my view, we should

4 proceed by allowing the witness to refer to his document, documents made

5 in 1993. You, of course, must get access to the original when it is

6 produced.

7 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that is the ruling of the Trial Chamber.

9 So you proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, by allowing the witness to

10 give evidence from these documents.


12 Q. Witness, you have followed and you are allowed to consult your

13 notes. And I had asked you whether there were any sick people among you

14 in the three rooms that you were in. Can you give us the names of some of

15 these sick people and tell us what they actually suffered from?

16 A. I can. In Room 16, there was a serious heart patient, 80 years

17 old, Hasan Hadzimuratovic. He was brought from the hospital sometime in

18 the month of May. There was an old man, Fehim, from Miljevina, also in

19 Room 16, 78 years old. He used a crutch. Also in the upper room was

20 Sandal, who died after my time in the KP Dom, an elderly man, sick. And I

21 have already mentioned four elderly men and a patient in Room 21. That is

22 the Cengices and Mirvic.

23 But in Room 16, there were also some younger men, some men who had

24 been wounded, or rather injured, not wounded in combat. Two or three men

25 were brought in from hospital who had previously been brought in from

Page 2550

1 Visegrad. They had been wounded by bullets or explosives. But three

2 young men from Gorazde had had an accident on the 3rd or 4th of April,

3 that is to say, before any kind of fighting broke out. As such, they had

4 been put into the Foca hospital. Afterwards, when the Serb forces entered

5 the hospital, they cleansed it of all who were not Serbs, so they brought

6 the three of them to the KP Dom as well.

7 Q. Those sick people that you just mentioned, did they get proper

8 treatment, medical treatment, while they were in the rooms with you?

9 A. Well, it certainly was not adequate treatment, proper treatment,

10 but at first a physician came to the KP Dom, or rather the camp, and then

11 people who complained of pain went to see him and would then be given

12 certain medicines. However, you must realise that you cannot get the same

13 kind of treatment in a room with 80 other persons as you can under

14 different circumstances, especially not for the elderly, for heart and

15 asthma patients.

16 Q. You said that a doctor came to the KP Dom. In which -- how often

17 did he come? Was he there all the time or what?

18 A. From time to time, not always. In the morning -- well, how many

19 times a week? That, I don't know. Was not every day but I don't know how

20 many times a week. At first, as I said, he came more often. Later on, it

21 all boiled down to one male nurse who was a retiree who was previously

22 employed by the KP Dom, and he had some drugs in this makeshift pharmacy

23 of the KP Dom, and he would give whatever drugs he had to those persons

24 who asked for them. I mean, he was fair.

25 Q. You said that later it boiled down to this nurse. What is

Page 2551

1 "later"? Can you be more specific?

2 A. Well, let's say sometime from August until I was there altogether,

3 it was his interventions only.

4 Q. You have already mentioned this particular group in Room 21. Was

5 there a Safet Avdic among you? Do you know him?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When were you -- when did you meet him in the KP Dom?

8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, now, wait a moment. That answer "yes" could

9 have been either to, "Do you know him," or, "Was he in the room with

10 you". I think you should make that very clear because this is a point

11 that has been raised. It is of some importance, I think.


13 Q. Witness, when did you meet Mr. Safet Avdic in the KP Dom for the

14 first time? Do you recall that?

15 A. Well, I met him as soon as I arrived on the 23rd of May. I mean I

16 saw him. It's not that I met him. I saw him, because he had been brought

17 in before that, on the 19th of May.

18 Q. And when did you share, if ever -- did you ever share a room with

19 Mr. Avdic while you were detained?

20 A. From the 31st of October until I left.

21 Q. And which room was that?

22 A. 18 and 21.

23 Q. Do you know where he was before that, before the end of October;

24 in which room?

25 A. Well, that room was above number 18. I don't know the exact

Page 2552












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2553

1 number. Was it Room 22, as it was known? He was in a group where persons

2 from Montenegro were, or rather, persons from Jelec via Kalinovik and

3 Bileca or from other parts of Montenegro, as far as I can remember.

4 Q. And how do you know that? Did he later tell you or did you

5 actually see him --

6 A. No, he would pass by our room. He used the same entrance, the

7 same entrance to the building. I mean, he went out through the same door

8 that we went out through from Room 16. And let me explain how come we

9 know each other so well. We are first cousins. My mother and his mother

10 are sisters.

11 Q. Witness, besides the rooms, were there -- you have already

12 mentioned -- how many detainees were in the isolation cell? Could you

13 ever count them or do you have any other information as to their number?

14 A. As for the isolation cells, they were by the same door but to the

15 left-hand side from our rooms. We would find out from time to time

16 whether two or three or four men were there on the basis of the meals that

17 were carried in the direction of these isolation cells.

18 Q. What kind of persons were kept in the isolation cells?

19 A. A number of men were kept there before they were taken to other

20 rooms. That is to say, they were brought in and sent directly to the

21 isolation cells. Usually, these were people who were brought in during

22 the night. Also, there were men who were mistreated in various ways.

23 When I say "mistreated," I am saying that they were beaten as they were

24 brought in. And also, from time to time, people from various rooms were

25 sent to isolation cells according to the criteria of the security people,

Page 2554

1 if they had violated a rule, whatever they thought. Perhaps they had

2 taken more food or done something else that did not fit into the regular

3 regimen, and that is why they were taken to isolation cells.

4 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of beating or screaming from these

5 isolation cells?

6 A. From the isolation cells? No. They were quite far away. I mean,

7 there were several walls between us as an obstacle.

8 Q. Did you ever see a person coming to your room, whatever room it

9 was, coming from the isolation cell with injuries?

10 A. In three cases. Zaim Cedic being the first, with a degree in law,

11 he worked in the Sutjeska National Park. Halim Dedovic, who was brought

12 in from his home and then he spent two or three nights in the isolation

13 cell and then he was brought to our room. And then you see what a man who

14 was black and blue looks like. And Sacir Smajkan, with a degree in law,

15 and he was a magistrate, a judge, in the municipal court. After having

16 spent about 30 days in the isolation cell, he was brought into our room

17 with visible bruises and wounds still. All three of these men are missing

18 until the present day.

19 Q. Witness, we have to go from one to the other. First, let's speak

20 about Zaim Cedic. That's actually Schedule B, number 11. When did he

21 come into your room and into which room, actually?

22 A. I have to digress a bit. A few days before I was brought into the

23 camp, during the night, in front of the Zelengora Hotel, we heard a man

24 screaming and moaning. Obviously he was being tortured badly.

25 Afterwards, it turned out that it was that man, Zaim Cedic, who came to my

Page 2555

1 room, Room 16, and told us that on that occasion, the local Serbs brought

2 him in, the members of the Serb army, and that that night they tortured

3 him in front of the hotel, beat him and made him swallow a significant

4 quantity of salt. I don't know whether it was half a kilo or more. When

5 he was brought to our room from the isolation cell, he still had visible

6 signs all over his body, on his head, on his back, everywhere.

7 Q. How long had he stayed in the isolation cell? Did he tell you?

8 A. Well, I said a few days before I was there, and then -- well, it's

9 hard to remember but let's say it's about 20 days.

10 Q. Did he tell you if he was also beaten in the isolation cell or in

11 the KP Dom?

12 A. Well, I have to say that these persons who were in isolation cells

13 and who were then brought to our room never said that anyone had beat them

14 in the isolation cells or that anything like that was done to them.

15 Q. And you said that he disappeared from the KP Dom. How did he

16 disappear from the KP Dom?

17 A. Yes. He was taken away in a group. Now, I'd have to look at

18 those dates again but then you have these copies of that list in front of

19 you. It's either the 19th of August --

20 Q. Please check your own notes, but according to what I see in this

21 handwriting, it's on the 19th of August, 1992. You mentioned a group and

22 there are --

23 A. Yes, that's what I said, the 19th, the 19th. I said so, yes.

24 Q. And you said that you have written down here the group --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please speak into the microphone.

Page 2556


2 Q. You have written down into your notes a group of people. You have

3 written down -- if you look yourself, you have written down in your notes,

4 20 men were taken out on that day, and you have listed several names as

5 well.

6 A. Yes. These are the names of the persons from my room, Room 16,

7 whereas the others are from other rooms.

8 Q. And was Mr. Cedic or any other of these from your room ever heard

9 of afterwards?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You mentioned as the second person, Halim Dedovic. And that is

12 Schedule B, number 13. Who was he and when did he come to your room?

13 A. The local barber, well-known in Foca. He was brought in in June,

14 the beginning of June. As I said, he was not in the isolation cell for

15 more than one or two nights. He was brought in in the evening, and after

16 one or two nights he was brought to our room, Room 16, with visible

17 injuries on his head and body, so he was black and blue. We tried to help

18 him to the best of our ability. We used onions and salt, different

19 compresses, so that he could walk.

20 Q. And do you know where he was beaten?

21 A. What I know is what he said to us. That is, that he was beaten

22 from his home to the KP Dom, as they were bringing him to the KP Dom, and

23 that's about two and a half kilometres.

24 Q. What became out of him?

25 A. He was taken away in a group in the month of December, the 11th of

Page 2557

1 December. A journalist was there too who was brought from an isolation

2 cell, a Slovenian.

3 Q. You have listed these incident -- you have listed -- in your

4 document, you have listed 11th December, 1992, eight men, and you mention

5 Mr. Dedovic, and this Slovene journalist --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- [Previous translation continues]... were they from your room,

8 all those you have listed here?

9 A. No, they were not from my room. They were brought that night and

10 were brought to a room above us. From my room, from 18, from 16, and this

11 journalist, Krivograd. Later on, I found out he was directly taken from

12 the isolation cell on that morning. That was the 11th. It was around

13 7.00 in the morning. They were taken to the gate and later on, they have

14 never been heard from since. His paper Mladina established contact with

15 me while I was in Zagreb in 1993. They tried to find out what had

16 happened to that journalist of theirs but they never did.

17 Q. And you mentioned Sacir Smajkan. Who was he and what happened to

18 him?

19 A. I stated that he was a lawyer. He was a judge in the municipal

20 court. Prior to that, he was a misdemeanour magistrate. He was a good,

21 solid young lawyer, judge. He was taken from his home. Based on what he

22 said, they had intention of killing him, and he was taken to Velecevo

23 across the Cehotina River and there he was beaten, and prior to that, they

24 mistreated him and they -- as a result of that, he fell into the river.

25 He managed to hide under the ivy tree. They went looking for him to

Page 2558

1 finish him off. He managed to hide so that they did not find him. In the

2 morning, he crossed the Cehotina river and went to Cohodar Mahala

3 settlement. There he was observed by a girl, and he tried to establish

4 contact with his friend, a Serb, who worked in MUP. However, police was

5 quicker than him and they, in the end, took him to KP Dom.

6 Q. And when did you see him in the KP Dom? When was that?

7 A. Well, again, that was sometime in the beginning of July, because

8 he spent quite a long time in the isolation cell. I believe a month to

9 month and a half.

10 Q. And when you saw him, what did he look like? Did he have injuries

11 on him?

12 A. Yes. He had difficulty walking. He had a very serious injury

13 that could not be treated while he was in the camp. His neck vertebra was

14 injured and there was a very deep cut there as well.

15 Q. Did he tell you where he received this cut and who did it?

16 A. Well, once again, those were members of the local Serb forces, and

17 that took place when he was -- after he was picked up from his house and

18 as they were taking him to be killed.

19 Q. What became of him? Did he also disappear from the KP Dom or is

20 he still --

21 A. Yes. He disappeared on the 22nd of August. Yes, 22nd of August.

22 Q. Yes. And --

23 A. And once again, from my room. And the wounded persons from

24 Gorazde were in the same group.

25 Q. How many people was that?

Page 2559












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 2560

1 A. Well, I mentioned that there were about 20 or perhaps 17 men in

2 that group. I couldn't tell you exactly.

3 Q. During the time you were in the KP Dom, what was the highest

4 numbers of detainees at any time? What do you estimate?

5 A. Well, we couldn't keep track of the exact number, because the

6 numbers were changed from time to time as people were taken away, but at

7 one time there were between five and six hundred people there.

8 Q. And what do you estimate? How many detainees passed through the

9 KP Dom altogether?

10 A. Well, during investigation I already stated that it was about

11 1.000, and that includes the people who were brought in in April and May,

12 before me, among which there were women and children, and there was also a

13 large group of workers from Miljevina who were brought in and then

14 released.

15 Q. When you left in March 1993, how many detainees remained behind?

16 A. In April.

17 Q. Yes, sorry. April 1993. How many remained behind?

18 A. Eighty-one, of those that could be counted in three rooms, not

19 including the isolation cells.

20 Q. We have heard from other detainees that there were also Serb

21 prisoners in the KP Dom. Where were they kept?

22 A. There were. They were mostly Serb soldiers in uniform, and they

23 were there due to various reasons. Based on what we heard, one of them

24 had killed three of his colleagues. They stayed in the room below Room

25 21. Occasionally -- and from time to time there would be between 10 and

Page 2561

1 20 of them.

2 Q. We have already discussed with other witnesses the details of the

3 conditions in the KP Dom, and they were also compared with the conditions

4 of the Serbs, so we do not need to go into details. I have just a very

5 few particular questions to ask. In relation to the conditions in winter,

6 we know from other witnesses that there was no heating in the building.

7 Did the Serb prisoners have anything to keep warm?

8 A. Not only they had things to keep them warm, but they also had

9 freedom of movement, and due to the fact that there was no power and all

10 the cooking devices were powered electrically and the kettles used for

11 cooking the food were outside, the fire was used to cook food, and we

12 could see them walking about, and the door of the room in which they were

13 kept was open. So one couldn't compare their conditions with ours.

14 Q. That's understood. But the question is: Did they have a stove?

15 Could they -- did they have heating devices in this winter that you were

16 detained?

17 A. Yes. They and the guards, they had a stove, and they had no

18 trouble bringing in coal or firewood into their rooms.

19 Q. Could you see that, that they brought in firewood and coal?

20 A. Yes. They would pass our rooms.

21 Q. Were the hygienic conditions of the Serb detainees better than

22 those of the Muslims; and if so, what was different?

23 A. Well, we took care of the sanitary and hygienic conditions

24 ourselves, so we did our own laundry, our own cleaning. We organised it

25 ourselves as far as we could. Now, to what degree Serbs were able to do

Page 2562

1 that, I don't know; however, they were allowed visits by members of their

2 families, so they would be in a position to get fresh, clean clothes. And

3 they also had other benefits available to them if they needed it, and they

4 had an access to the bathroom and so on.

5 Q. Was there a laundry in the KP Dom?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you get towels or whatsoever from the laundry, and could the

8 Serbs do that?

9 A. In the beginning, for some 45 days, when I came in, initially we

10 were able to take a bath. In the beginning, none of us were given

11 bed linen or anything else like that, other than soap from time to time.

12 Afterwards, after a few months, perhaps, during the time I was there, the

13 bed linen would be changed normally once or twice a month.

14 Q. What about the Serb prisoners? Did they have better access to the

15 laundry, the linens and towels, than the Muslims?

16 A. Definitely. They could have as many as they needed. I remember a

17 time in winter months, as groups were leaving, we tried to get three or

18 four blankets instead of just two, just to keep warm. You have to know

19 that in January of 1993, the temperature was at one point minus 23. There

20 was one centimetre of ice on the walls in my room, so if you had a bottle

21 of water, it would freeze overnight in my room. And in one moment, I

22 don't know why, but the guards came in and ordered us to return all the

23 blankets in excess of the two that we were allotted, and they pressured

24 us, they threatened us. On that occasion, Safet Avdic -- people were just

25 trying to get by and sewing blankets from pieces that they had, so Safet

Page 2563

1 Avdic was taken to the isolation cell because of this.

2 Q. We have learned from other witnesses already that the food was

3 actually starvation rations. Was no food available because of the war or

4 were the conditions deliberately kept so bad? Do you know that?

5 A. That was done on purpose, judged on all human laws. Nobody can

6 convince me otherwise. Because in the beginning of the war, Foca was

7 quite well supplied with food. Serb forces took over the mill in

8 Ustikolina, which had a capacity of over 40.000 tonnes of wheat, and let's

9 say that only half of that remained. I know that they used trucks to

10 transport wheat, because I saw from my window convoys driving away that

11 wheat.

12 Also, in Kosora, which is a part of Ustikolina, there were

13 military warehouses in which, in addition to ammunition and weapons, there

14 were good materiel reserves.

15 And Perucica, a trading company, before the war was one of the

16 strongest companies in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which had federal food

17 reserves under its supervision. What did they do with the food, I really

18 don't know. I know that the food was not to be found in the stores

19 either, because they simply stole it. From my apartment, in April, I

20 could see that two stores that were there were robbed within four or five

21 days, robbed by paramilitary forces. When I say "paramilitary," I mean

22 the White Eagles and the forces that were present there from Serbia.

23 Q. And did you ever see that food was delivered into the KP Dom?

24 A. Yes. Below my room there was a warehouse, a makeshift one, in

25 which they stored the food.

Page 2564

1 Q. What kind of food was delivered? Were you able to see?

2 A. Those were cans, mostly cans of 10 to 20 kilos, with canned

3 vegetables in them, I suppose.

4 Q. Did you get this food?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you personally suffer any physical consequences due to the

7 living conditions in the KP Dom?

8 A. Physically, yes. I lost weight. If that's what you mean.

9 Q. Anything else than the weight loss?

10 A. As far as physical harassment is concerned, nobody touched me.

11 Q. Did you suffer any physical results in relation to the sanitary

12 conditions?

13 A. As far as the sanitary conditions are concerned, one person from

14 our room, Alic Uzeir, and another person from another room, worked at

15 the poultry farm in Velecevo, and he brought in lice, which he then gave

16 to all of us.

17 Q. Did the living conditions affect you mentally?

18 A. I tried as much as I could to maintain my mental good health;

19 however, consequences are unavoidable because one cannot live

20 through -- go through life without remembering those events. Perhaps the

21 life as it is now does not allow me to go back to those times very

22 frequently, but one still does.

23 Q. Did you ever complain about the living conditions to the

24 authorities in the camp or to the guards?

25 A. I think that complaining would not be received well under those

Page 2565

1 circumstances. There were individuals who wrote complaints to the

2 management of the camp. Among them was Alija, a salesman from Gorazde.

3 He complained about living conditions. And based on the guards'

4 recommendation, he wrote a letter to the KP Dom warden, asking to see

5 him. He wrote this letter. That was late August/early September of

6 1992. That letter was supposedly handed in, and one or two days later he

7 was called out and he never returned, and he is still missing.

8 Q. You said you were not mistreated in the KP Dom personally, you did

9 not suffer any physical consequences. Were you ever beaten or slapped

10 while you were in the KP Dom?

11 A. Well, there was one event, not directed against me. However, on

12 the 30th of October of 1992, my room at that moment was having lunch, and

13 as we were finishing our lunch, those who finished first would go towards

14 the stairs that were leading from the dining room. We waited there for

15 everyone to join us, to form a column, and to be escorted by a guard back

16 to the room. And as we were gathering there, three men came into the

17 compound, escorted by Krsto, a cook. I cannot remember his last name.

18 They had automatic weapons on them, knives. One of them had a

19 machine-gun.

20 When they saw our group, they started towards us, shouting

21 "balijas" at us and shouting, "Here are chickens to be slaughtered."

22 They asked us to put our hands behind our backs, to put our heads down,

23 and they were circling us with those weapons. Several of us, based on

24 their assessment, did not put our heads low enough, and those of us were

25 hit with rifle butts. So they hit me as well passing by me; however, I

Page 2566

1 did not consider this to be significant. Other detainees who could see

2 this from their rooms were in great fear. The guards started panicking,

3 and they moved to prevent some -- to prevent this incident from

4 escalating. They took us back to our rooms swiftly, they locked us up and

5 did not let anybody out until these three soldiers left the compound,

6 these three armed soldiers.

7 Q. Besides you, who else was hit with rifle butts? Do you recall who

8 was in this group? If you would please use the number.

9 A. I -- this name is not written correctly; however, the initials are

10 correct: FWS-214. This is a doctor.

11 Q. And do you recall anyone else who was hit on this occasion?

12 A. I don't know. There were several of men. We were so afraid

13 because the weapons were pointed at us that one simply could not remember

14 this.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is the incident in the

16 indictment 5.12.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


19 Q. You said that these were three men. Do you mean soldiers? Did

20 they wear uniforms?

21 A. Yes. Yes. They wore camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. Did soldiers have free access to the prison compound?

23 A. Based on what I know and what I could observe, there was

24 supposedly a rule that nobody who was armed was allowed into the

25 compound. However, individuals or groups in military uniforms would come

Page 2567

1 into our compound in larger or smaller groups, especially when they were

2 mining the compound.

3 Q. You say that there was a rule. Do you mean the rule from pre-war

4 or do you mean a rule now newly established? What rule do you mean?

5 A. Well, this was just my assessment. I don't know that there is a

6 document or an official regulation regarding this. And people with

7 personal weapons were admitted in, perhaps with a pistol, but not with a

8 weapon, not with a rifle. And I also have to remind you that there were

9 machine-guns in the compound.

10 Q. I only want a clarification. When you say, "supposedly there was

11 a rule that armed soldiers could not get in," what kind of rule do you

12 refer to? Who set that rule and how do you know about it?

13 JUDGE HUNT: He's already said he doesn't --

14 A. No, I don't know about this rule.


16 Q. Did you see other prisoners being beaten; see, really personally

17 see with your own eyes?

18 A. Yes. I didn't see them being beaten, but I did see them come in

19 beaten up, which means that they were taken away and then brought in with

20 injuries. We could also hear when they were beaten. We couldn't see this

21 physically because the glass was coloured over.

22 Q. I come to -- we will come to this section, but do you -- did you

23 ever see a person, really see a person being beaten?

24 A. Yes. There was one event which took place in June or July - I

25 can't tell you exactly - and the food was poor and people were hungry, and

Page 2568

1 that affected them and they wanted to get more food than they were given.

2 And as we went to lunch, we would line up in order as we approached the

3 line, and the guard who escorted us into the dining room would normally

4 stand in the middle of the dining room. And some individuals tried to

5 come -- to go back to the line to get a second serving without being

6 observed by the guard. And on one occasion a guard named Vukovic noticed

7 that the people were trying to get into the line for the second time, and

8 he used a disproportionate force and beat up an elderly man, Selimovic, in

9 front of us. We were sitting in a group and dining.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would now come actually to the

11 complex of these beatings more heard than seen. I don't think I should

12 start with it.

13 JUDGE HUNT: You always seem to get those extra few minutes off.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I can continue, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, that's all right. We will resume again

16 tomorrow at 9.30.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

18 3:57 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 31st

19 day of January, 2001, at 9:30 a.m.