1 Wednesday, 31
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.
11 WITNESS: DZEVAD S. LOJO [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lojo.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Yesterday you already mentioned several persons that you saw in
17 your room with injuries. Now I would like to know from you, did you see
18 persons returning with injuries from beatings in the KP Dom?
19 A. Yes. Yes, I saw persons who had been beaten and who were returned
20 as such into the room.
21 Q. Can you give us the names? Whom did you see?
22 A. Hasan Dzanko and Emir Mandzo.
23 Q. Hasan Dzanko, does he have a nickname?
24 A. He does: Kalabic.
25 Q. And Emir Mandzo, does he have a nickname?
1 A. Emir? No, I didn't know of any. He was a male nurse.
2 Q. And Hasan Dzanko, who was he?
3 A. He was a salesperson. He worked in a sales company. He actually
4 had a shop in Josanica, which is a very small place near Foca.
5 Q. What happened to them? What did you see?
6 A. This happened on the 13th of June, 1992. That was the third day
7 of the Bajram, the Muslim holiday, the Kurban Bajram.
8 This is a customary procedure. The duty policeman would go to the
9 gate. He would come with a list and call out certain names. On that day,
10 there were five or six persons who were taken to the administration of the
11 KP Dom.
12 On that day, among others, the name of Hasan Dzanko was called
13 out. He was taken to the gate. The duty policeman handed him over to
14 another one. That's where this exchange took place, at the gate. After
15 some time, we heard moans of that person, so it seemed apparent that there
16 was something physical going on with him. And this took place for about
17 15 minutes, as in most cases.
18 He was taken back to the room again. The guard on duty escorted
19 him through the gate. Whoever dared get close to the window saw that it
20 was difficult for him to walk. When he came to the room, he had injuries
21 on his head, cuts. And also, his chest had been injured, so the physician
22 in our room came to the conclusion that his ribs were broken. This same
23 physician used a needle and thread to sew the wound on his face.
24 After his name, Emir Mandzo's name was called out. He went
25 through the same procedure. Again we heard the moaning. He was also
1 returned after 15 or 20 minutes with a bad limp. Afterwards, he said that
2 both were beaten by Ivanovic. I personally don't know him.
3 His leg was injured and other parts of his body. His leg was hit
4 by a rifle butt. His fingers were broken. He was beaten on the soles of
5 his feet. He was turned over a chair. He described this to us. For some
6 time, we brought meals to him from the kitchen.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but in the
10 transcript, it doesn't say "neighbour Ivanovic," and that's what the
11 witness said. The witness said "neighbour Ivanovic." It is line 24, page
13 JUDGE HUNT: I think that your numbering must be different. I'd
14 say on page 3, line 2.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My mistake, my mistake, Your Honour.
16 Yes, page 3, line 2.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, perhaps you can clear that up.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I'm going to clear up Mr. Ivanovic, who
19 that could have been. I come to this a little bit later.
20 JUDGE HUNT: It might be a good idea to ask him now while it's
21 fresh in everyone's mind.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
23 Q. Did he tell you anything about Ivanovic, who that was?
24 A. No. He just said -- I mean, both of them confirmed that this same
25 neighbour -- I mean, he's from a neighbouring village, or rather it's the
1 same village but part of the village was Serb and the other part was
2 Muslim, and that that neighbour, when they were brought in by the guards,
3 was the one who did these physical things to them. But let me add one
4 thing. The fact is that this was done within the compound of the prison,
5 according to procedure. That is to say, their names were called out from
6 the gate, and then also the guard came with a written document and called
7 out these names.
8 Q. Yes. But this neighbour, Ivanovic, neighbour from which village?
9 A. Village of Josanica, the Serb part of that village.
10 Q. Was this Ivanovic a guard or someone from outside?
11 A. No, no, no, no, no. We did not see him within the compound. What
12 his position was, I don't know. I don't know, at least. We don't know.
13 Q. You were just describing the injuries of Mr. Mandzo. Please
14 continue with that. You said that he had injuries on the feet. What kind
15 of injuries?
16 A. A blow in the foot which caused bones to be broken and therefore
17 he could not walk. I already mentioned that. For some time, he had to
18 lie in bed. But he had been beaten all over his body. I'm not aware of
19 these techniques, but he described this to us, that they put him on a
20 chair, over a chair, so that they could beat him on the soles of his
22 Q. How long was he not able to walk? Do you recall how many days?
23 A. About 15 days. We would bring him meals.
24 Q. And Mr. Dzanko, how long was he not -- how much time did he need
25 to recover?
1 A. Somewhat longer because this person was about 70 years old. While
2 he was at the KP Dom, he never actually recovered because the effects of
3 these blows in the chest were really bad and his sleep was affected. Both
4 were taken away in August and there has been no trace of them since.
5 Q. You said that it happened in June. At what time -- at what time
6 of the day did this happen?
7 A. It was sometime between 10.30 and 12.30 because, in addition to
8 them, there were persons who were taken out from other rooms during that
9 same time period.
10 Q. Do you know their names?
11 A. No. They were from other rooms. I knew them but I've forgotten
12 by now.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Emir Mandzo, that's Schedule B,
14 number 37, and Hasan Dzanko, the Prosecution believes it is B-18, coming
15 from the nickname, although in the list he is listed as Hasan Dzano.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. You said that one of the doctors, one of the detainee doctors,
19 helped Mr. Dzanko. Did the two persons you mentioned, did they also get
20 treatment from the prison staff?
21 A. No. In principle, we tried to help such people with what we had,
22 with compresses made of onions and salt.
23 Q. And you mentioned that you heard the sounds of moaning. Did you
24 -- could you find out or could you hear from which direction it came?
25 Could you make out where these persons were beaten?
1 A. Judging by the sound, it came from the ground floor of the KP
2 Dom. Because of our general psychological condition, people were very
3 afraid and very tense. They were afraid that their names would be called
4 out next, so we suggested to some of them to withdraw from the rooms. It
5 was not a very good idea for anyone to be at the window and to look out of
6 the window. The sound came from the rooms. When one enters the KP Dom on
7 the right-hand side, on the ground floor, one could perhaps see
8 silhouettes in the windows.
9 Q. Did you look through the windows? I mean, could you -- what were
10 the window panes like?
11 A. Part of the glass was painted white so you could not see through
12 that glass what was going on inside, but perhaps you could discern the
14 Q. These sounds -- you said you heard the sounds of moaning. Could
15 you also hear the sounds of beatings, actually the beating as such?
16 A. You would hear blows, but you didn't know what it was all about
17 until the man would come back to the room. And as I have already
18 mentioned, quite a few of us had withdrawn because if you were to stick
19 around the window, there was an imminent danger of you being the next one.
20 Q. This incident, was it the first time that you heard such sounds of
21 beatings, or was it -- had it happened before and did it happen after
23 A. These were the first that I had personally heard and actually seen
24 the injured persons afterwards. After that, people were taken out every
25 day in the afternoon, and that went on until the 30th of June.
1 Q. At what time of the day were the other groups called out?
2 A. These 30-odd men who were taken out between the 15th and 30th of
3 June, that mainly took place in the afternoon, between 1700 and 2100
5 Q. Did you have something like a roll call in your rooms?
6 A. The procedure was the same. The guard who would be on duty in the
7 compound, he would go to the gate, come back with a piece of paper, and
8 depending on the room involved, he would call out one, two, or three
9 names, and then these men would be taken to the gate.
10 From our room, we could notice through the open gate that they
11 were taken over by another guard and would be searched by that guard
12 then. They didn't take anything with them, but this person would just
13 search their clothes.
14 Q. Where did they search the clothes; could you see that? Was it in
15 front of the metal door, or where?
16 A. No. No, no, no. No, after the metal door. If there were two,
17 for example, you would notice that one would get in and then the other
18 one, and you would notice that this guard who was taking them in at the
19 door would search them briefly, and then they would be taken to the
20 premises of the KP Dom.
21 Q. I was actually referring to another sort of roll call. Were you
22 checked on every evening or every day in the room as such, all detainees?
23 A. The procedure of work of this institution, this camp, was to a
24 large extent based on the procedure that prevailed in civilian times when
25 the KP Dom was an official institution. Every evening, the duty guard
1 would come, accompanied by a guard from the compound. They had automatic
2 weapons. They would enter the rooms. This would usually be after
4 We would all line up, one behind the other, in the joint premises
5 so that it would be easier to see how many of us there were. One of us
6 would be appointed the person in charge of that room, sort of, and then
7 that one person would tell these guards who had came in how many of us
8 there actually were, and perhaps he would say whether somebody had been
9 taken out that day.
10 Those who could not get to that joint room, that common room, like
11 Dzanko and others, we would say that they had stayed behind in bed. They
12 would record that in their notebooks which they carried with them, because
13 they were going from one room to the other that way. That was the
14 procedure that prevailed throughout my stay at the KP Dom.
15 So they had the exact situation every evening, how many persons
16 there were in the KP Dom, or rather, the camp.
17 Q. And when you say after dinner, what time of the day was it,
19 A. Well, sometimes around 7 or 7.30 in the evening.
20 Q. And this procedure that you just explained to us, several
21 detainees were singled out and taken to the metal door, when did this take
22 place; after this roll call or before, or both?
23 A. Before and after the roll call. So we would always correct the
24 actual figure. We would always say exactly how many of us were in the
25 room, but I already mentioned that people were usually taken out between
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 five and nine.
2 Q. Do you recall any names of such detainees that were called out,
3 waited in front of the metal door, and that you heard --
4 A. Yes, yes. I wrote down the names I could remember, and that is
5 annexed to those documents of mine. May I?
6 Q. Yes, please.
7 A. That is Munib Veiz, Marinovic Kruno.
8 Q. Please, let's -- whenever you mention a name, let's just deal with
9 this person, and when we are finished, then we go to the next.
10 Munib Veiz, what can you tell us about him; who he was, what
11 happened to him, what you saw or heard?
12 A. Munib Veiz was a salesperson in Foca. He worked in the shoe shop
13 of the big leather factory, Visoko, from Visoko. My assumption is that he
14 was taken away and beaten up because every individual or every two
15 individuals who were taken out, after they were taken out and after they
16 passed the gate, we would hear moans after some time, that is to say that
17 they underwent physical treatment, all of those who had passed that gate,
18 including Munib Veiz.
19 Also, I think that because of something that happened before the
20 war, Munib Veiz was the friend of Murid, the director of Focatrans, and
21 that is one of the reasons why such force was applied against him.
22 Q. Did you see Mr. Veiz, Munib Veiz, again?
23 A. Not him, not anyone else from these groups that were taken out
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, Munib Veiz is listed under B-59
2 and C-28.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
5 Q. Please go to the next person from your list and tell us what you
7 A. Kruno Marinovic was a Croat who came to Foca. As far as I know,
8 he was a mechanic that maintained various appliances in Foca, and also he
9 was a correspondent from time to time for some Croat newspaper, I don't
10 know which one exactly.
11 I don't know the exact dates when each one of them was taken out,
12 and -- but it is definitely this period between the 15th and 30th, and he
13 went through the same procedure as Veiz did, and I don't know anything
14 else about him.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is number C-15.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Yes, please, the next person?
19 A. Mato Ivancic, he was a medical technician. He worked in the
20 regional medical centre. He was not in the same room with me, but as far
21 as I know, he was brought from his workplace, from the hospital, and also
22 taken away according to the same procedure as the previous person. He was
23 mistreated. Another observation: His documents, his passport, that is,
24 we found in Room 21, and that was left behind him.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour it's C-11.
1 Q. Yes, please, the next name?
2 A. Enes Uzunovic is a youngish man. I did not know him that well, so
3 there is not much I can say, but his fate was the same as that of the
4 previous one.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, it's C-26.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
8 Q. Yes, please.
9 A. Nurko Nisic was assistant commander of the police in Foca before
10 the war, and to the best of my knowledge, at the KP Dom, he was physically
11 mistreated twice, once before I came to the KP Dom and the second time in
12 this period between the 15th and the 30th, when he was taken away. Again,
13 he was beaten and he never returned, and I don't know anything about him,
14 just like the others.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this person Nurko Nisic, that's
16 C-19 and the incident 5.27.
17 Q. Yes, please continue.
18 A. Halim Konjo, who was one of Konjo brothers, and they were in the
19 KP Dom. He owned a restaurant at Gornje Polje, and he was a person
20 well-known in Foca, very sociable, and people knew his pub through his
21 father and otherwise, and he had friends among all the ethnic groups. He
22 was quite relaxed and behaved very freely so that people around the town
23 knew him. And he was taken away following the same procedure, and when it
24 was him -- because others who were more characteristic, for instance, we
25 observed that he was ill-treated the longest.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is C-13 and B-33.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Yes, please continue.
5 A. Selimovic, the same procedure. I think he was a car mechanic and
6 had his own shop, as far as I know. And it was following the same
7 procedure, that he was called out, left, and is missing.
8 Q. Do you know the first name of Mr. Selimovic?
9 A. I don't know. I only know his nickname, and they called him
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that it
12 is B-50.
13 Q. Yes, please continue.
14 A. Zulfo Veiz likewise. I know him but not all that well. But it
15 was the same procedure; again, he was taken away and he fared the same way
16 as others.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, that is C-29, and this Zulfo
18 Veiz is also mentioned under 5.27 in the indictment.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
21 Q. What was he doing? What was his job?
22 A. I don't know, doesn't quite ring the bell, but I do think that he
23 was a policeman, as far as I can remember, but I'm not really sure.
24 Q. And the two Veiz, are they relatives, Munib and Zulfo?
25 A. I guess so, but I'm not sure.
1 Q. Please continue.
2 A. Fuad Mandzo was a youngish person of some 25. I believe that he
3 came out of a vocational school. He lived in Donje Polje and he is
4 missing too, like those others.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-16.
6 Q. Yes, please continue.
7 A. Ramo Dzendusic. He was of a rather advanced age, 65 or
8 thereabouts. He was a clerk in the municipal authorities. That is, he
9 worked for the Secretariat for National Defence, which was responsible for
10 the draft in the former JNA, so that everybody knew that person rather
11 well. He lived in Donje Polje. And about him, I know the day, the date
12 and the time when he was taken away, the hour when he was taken away. And
13 it was the 30th of June, 9.00 in the evening.
14 Q. How do you know this date so well? Is there a particular reason
15 to remember that?
16 A. It stuck in my memory because nobody else was taken after that and
17 because we were sitting in the same room when the man on duty came and
18 called him out, so that simply that day and the time when he was taken
19 away simply stuck in my memory.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-8.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
23 Q. Yes, please, the next person?
24 A. Nail Hodzic, he was a taxi driver, although relatively advanced
25 age, in Foca. Practically everybody in Foca knew him, and he was taken
1 away, like all the others.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That's B-10.
3 Q. Please continue.
4 A. Bico, he was also a publican. He had his restaurant in Gornje
5 Polje. He was taken away. He was a well-known figure.
6 Q. Do you know his first name or nickname?
7 A. Bico owned a restaurant, a coffee shop, the name I don't remember.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's C-2 and this person is also mentioned
9 under B-5.
10 Q. Yes, please.
11 A. Mustafa Kuloglija was a teacher. I believe he worked in the
12 elementary school at Ustikolina beyond that part of the town which was
13 called Aladza, and he was taken away following the same procedure and he
14 is missing.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's C-15 (Couldn't hear).
16 Q. Yes, please continue.
17 A. Granov, an engineer, the first name I do not recall. He worked
18 for -- he was employed with the local post office, and I think he came
19 from the part of the town called Gornje Polje. He was taken away and is
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that it
22 is C-9.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
25 Q. Please continue.
1 A. Atko Isanovic, a young man who was also taken away. I do not have
2 any particular information about him.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is mentioned under B-29.
4 Q. Yes, please.
5 A. Altoka, I know his last name, a local worker, as far as I know.
6 He was taken away, and I don't know what happened to him.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that
8 this is the person C-1.
9 Q. Yes, please, continue.
10 A. Esad Kiselica. He was employed with the electric -- with the
11 power distribution board in Foca, and he was employed with the unit
12 maintaining the low voltage network in Foca. And he was taken away like
13 all the others, and again, like all the others, I do not know what
14 happened to him. He is missing. Those are the ones that I --
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This is C-12.
16 Q. Witness, do you know the brothers Rikalo?
17 A. I knew them, but now it's difficult for me to remember their
18 faces, their traits, after all this time.
19 Q. I only ask you because in your notes, in the notes that you
20 referred to, you have listed names of people that were taken away, and
21 there is the name Rikalo, but no first name. That's why I ask.
22 A. Well, I've forgotten quite a lot by now.
23 Q. Do you know a person Mensud Pasovic? You have listed him as well
24 in your notes.
25 A. Pasovic. One of Pasovic brothers, if you mean him, but they were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 taken away later. They were -- or one of them was with that group which
2 allegedly went to pick plums, and another brother was with that group
3 which went to Rozaje, and he is alive. I mean, he let us know that he was
4 alive. And about this one, I don't know.
5 Q. Do you know an Abdurahman Cankusic?
6 A. The surname rings a bell, but ...
7 Q. Do you know a Kemo Dzelilovic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he -- what can you tell us about him?
10 A. Kemo Dzelilovic was a teacher at, I believe, the secondary
11 vocational school. And he was also with that group which was taken away,
12 and he went through the same procedure, and I know nothing else about
13 him. I don't know if he ever called from somewhere.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this is C-7.
15 Q. And do you know a Seval Soro?
16 A. Seval, it also rings a bell, but I've forgotten what he looks
18 Q. Thank you. You said that you heard the sound of moaning and the
19 sound of beating. Did you hear anything else in relation to these
20 beatings and the disappearance of these people you just mentioned?
21 A. In several cases, as I've told you, such as Halim Konjo, Munib
22 Veiz, and Nurko Niksic, I can still -- somehow I can hear still in my ears
23 is that they were tortured for the longest periods of time. In Konjo's
24 case in particular, one could hear voices as when somebody falls because
25 he has fainted and then somebody's trying to bring him back to
1 consciousness by pouring water over him, calling out his name.
2 Q. Did you ever recognise the voice of those who beat? Could you
3 tell us who beat these people?
4 A. No. No, I couldn't recognise -- no, I couldn't identify the voice
5 of the one who beat, to identify him, no. But according to those in the
6 room, those who knew guards or the personnel of the KP Dom better than I
7 did, they -- most the name -- among them the name "Burilo" came up most
9 Q. Burilo, is that -- was that a guard?
10 A. Yes, yes, before the war and wartime.
11 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Rasevic about these, these disappearances
12 and these beatings?
13 A. In the beginning in June, on two or three occasions I received
14 some information about my family from Mr. Rasevic, and I asked him, "And
15 where are those that are been taken away? What's happened with them,
16 because they don't seem to be coming back?" And he told me that they had
17 been taken to another place. As far as I can remember, he said that they
18 had been taken to Velecevo, which was the women's prison before the war.
19 Q. Did you know Mr. Rasevic from before the war? Were you friendly
20 with each other?
21 A. Yes. Rasevic and I grew up together in the same street, and we
22 attended the elementary school together. We were in the same classroom.
23 Q. This pattern of beatings in June, how did this affect you? Did
24 you fear to be taken as well?
25 A. Everybody was afraid. There was no exception because nobody knew
1 the criteria for which they were calling you out, so any one of us could
2 have been the one. There was this fear, the suspense, because we never
3 knew who would be the next.
4 Q. You yourself had a rather high position in Foca before the war.
5 Do you know why -- what saved you from being taken? Did you think about
7 A. I did not think about it until I came out of the KP Dom because I
8 didn't know how long it would last. And even because of this situation,
9 since we knew nothing about those who had been taken away since isolation
10 and secrecy were such that we could have absolutely no, no way to know
11 that those people who had gone out had not reached their homes, that is,
12 their families.
13 I must say that during those months when they were being taken
14 away, we -- privately we were all glad when they came and called names
15 out, and we were sorry that we were not with those groups, that we were
16 staying behind, so that we thought, and I thought about myself, that we
17 were being kept there longer for some other reasons because they perhaps
18 needed us for something or other.
19 Q. Mr. Lojo, let me interrupt you. I was not asking you about the
20 exchanges. I was asking you about these beatings, when the people
21 disappeared in the beatings. Do you know why you were not, why you
22 yourself were not taken out in this fashion, beating and disappearance?
23 That was what I was having at. Did someone help you or save you, or what
24 saved you?
25 A. I said that I did not know, that I began to think about it only
1 later on. I suppose that before the war, as I held all those offices, and
2 I suppose I treated people in the town in a manner that somebody
3 appreciated, really, and therefore they did not put me on such a list. I
4 simply do not have the real answer. I suppose those who decided who would
5 be put on the list and who wouldn't would know best why that was so.
6 Q. You have already started to talk about exchanges, and you said
7 that you actually wanted to be exchanged. What kind -- what did you find
8 out later about these exchanges?
9 A. I acquired that knowledge when I reached Samobor, that all those
10 who left, that is over 400 men, I believe, that most of them were not
11 exchanged, that is, were not set free, but were simply gone, and all trace
12 of their physical existence is gone.
13 Q. You have listed in your notes a lot of these exchanges, and you
14 have also counted who was later heard of and never heard of.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would like to enter this
16 document now into evidence, that is, the document ID 215 and 215A, so that
17 we do not have to name here each and every person on this list. I would
18 only speak with the witness about these incidents as such.
19 JUDGE HUNT: But so far he has simply boldly asserted in a general
20 sense that they have not been heard of again. Is that sufficient?
21 Shouldn't we have some idea of his opportunity to know those facts? If
22 you remember the way the investigator went about it, he made inquiries of
23 people who would be expected to know. Some witnesses, during the course
24 of the trial, have said that when they were released, they were bombarded
25 by inquiries from the families of these people as to whether he knew
1 anything about it, which suggests that they knew nothing about it. But so
2 far, we don't seem to have got any evidentiary basis for using his list to
3 prove that they are no longer in existence.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
5 Q. Witness, you have listed about, I don't know, about 20 or even
6 more exchanges, and you have listed the people that were exchanged on what
7 day, and the number of people. How do you know -- how did you learn that
8 these people are actually missing? What did you do to find out? Whom did
9 you meet so that you can be sure about it?
10 A. Well, the accuracy of my information, about many of them, I heard
11 from families who communicated with me from different European countries,
12 having learned that I had come out. And in May, the Club of Fortunes in
13 Germany invited me. They organised a meeting, and at this meeting, which
14 brought together members of families of a large number of those men, and I
15 told them, because they asked me were they there, did I see them there and
16 when did they come out? And I gave them dates then and they confirmed
17 that it was about that time when they came out that they never called them
18 until the time when I came out.
19 I also said yesterday that I had been to the International Red
20 Cross in Zagreb and spoke to the person who kept lists of registered Foca
21 locals who were missing, so that there I also learnt about the names of
22 the missing persons, that is, that they had never called anyone,
23 communicated either with the International Red Cross somewhere in Bosnia
24 or any other part of the world because, according to the computer evidence
25 of the Red Cross, they had all this information, where the person had
1 called from, whom he had called home from, and whom he'd called where, and
2 what camp he had been detained in. And the International Red Cross, I
3 could see that on their computer, had a list of all camps in Bosnia and
4 the names of those which were missing. When I look at those lists at the
5 International Red Cross, I could not find out if they had possibly been
6 transferred to some other camps, and it was impossible that they had been
7 taken from Foca to another camp.
8 If there were such cases, and in 1993, I had some information to
9 that effect, namely that from Foca, from the KP Dom, in June, 1993, a
10 group of men had been taken to Rudo, of those 81 who were still left
11 behind, and the Red Cross recorded that duly. About two, they were, for
12 instance, put on record in Butmir. So that there was an absolute
13 control. And these men are de facto missing to this day.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Now we are getting closer, but if you want us to make
15 findings, either we do it witness by witness in that list, or you have to
16 get something from the witness --
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
18 JUDGE HUNT: -- which will satisfy us that each of those names is
19 covered by those various matters. The inquiries that have been made by
20 this witness are the same sort of inquiries as have been made by the
21 investigator, but he has been able to say in his lists that he's made them
22 in relation to precisely-named people. So if you want us to make a
23 finding that those particular people are no longer to be found, I'm afraid
24 you'd have to take the witness through bit by bit.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I will take him through these exchanges he's
1 listed here.
2 JUDGE HUNT: But certainly the sorts of inquiries he has made are
3 the very sort of inquiries that would establish that fact, provided we can
4 pin them to each particular name on that list.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
6 Q. Witness, you have listed in your notes -- you have listed an
7 incident from 15th August, 1992, and you have written here that 15 men
8 were taken. What can you tell us about this group of 15 men? And you
9 have listed here Zaim, the manager of the post office, Dzanko brothers and
10 Kibrici brothers. What did you find out -- what did you personally
11 observe while you were in the prison and what did you find out later about
12 these people you have mentioned by name?
13 A. It was the 19th of August, not the 15th. These individuals whom I
14 mentioned were by and large in the same room as I was. Rasid Pacanic,
15 Paco were father and son. Lagariya, one of the twin brothers from the
16 village of Kosman, they were with their father in the camp. Zaim Cedic.
17 Mulahasanovic, Fehim Mulahasanovic, an old man that is over 70, from
18 Miljevina. And Zaim and his son. About some of those, I know precisely,
19 at the request of the families, such as the old Mulahasanovices, I know
20 that he never called them, that he is still missing and still trying to
21 trace him.
22 Q. About which of these persons do you know that, those you just --
23 A. Mulahasanovic, Fehim Mulahasanovic, Zaim Cedic, and father and son
24 Paco because the other Paco was taken away on the 22nd of August.
25 Q. Yes. And what can you tell us about the group that was taken away
1 on the 22nd of August? How many were they and what did you later hear
2 about them?
3 A. That is a group of about 17 men. I mentioned Ismet Paco first.
4 He was one of the directors in Focatrans. He was a deputy director in
5 Focatrans, or rather he was director of freight transportation. And
6 Focatrans is well-known because of the events that took place before the
7 war. Tatarevic Nedim, a young man with degree in economics, he worked in
8 the bank. He was director of the treasury of the foreign exchange
9 sector. He was taken away just like Smajkan Sacir. Until the present
10 day, their families know nothing of them.
11 I know about them for sure, that they are missing until the
12 present day. As for the rest I've mentioned, the same goes for them as
13 well, except that I haven't been in touch with their families.
14 Q. How would you know -- how do you know that the others are also
15 missing? Where did you get this information from?
16 A. From people who got out of the camp in 1993, through this mutual
17 exchange of information, Bibovic Ismet, Ekrem Selimovic, confirmed that
18 these people were still missing and that they also, through their
19 information, through their families, they came to the conclusion that they
20 had not contacted them.
21 Q. And the group -- you have listed also a group of 25 people who
22 were taken away on the 25th of August, 1992.
23 A. In this group was also my wife's brother, who has not been heard
24 from since. That is something I know for sure. Lojo Nedzib is my
25 relative. His wife was in Zagreb for some time. He's never called
1 either. Pasovic Ismet was brought from Montenegro, from Igalo. He is an
2 elderly man also, a close friend. He never called. He's never been heard
3 from. Asim Nezbur, a photographer, his wife lives in Sarajevo. He's
4 never been heard from since. Jakupovic Safet, before the war -- I mean,
5 he's not from Foca. He was a convict in the KP Dom, and when he was
6 released from prison, he got married to a woman in Foca. He has never
7 been heard from. I know from his brothers-in-law, his wife's brothers,
8 that he's never been heard from since.
9 Q. In your notes, you have mentioned a group of 71 detainees that
10 were taken away on the 29th of August, 1992. What happened on that 29th
11 of August, 1992?
12 A. On the 29th of August, I don't know whether that was one of the
13 results of the London conference and its conclusions. We heard about
14 that, that all camps in Bosnia were supposed to be closed down and that
15 there was supposed to be an exchange all for all. People were being taken
16 out more intensively. And on that Saturday, first a group of 55 men was
17 taken out to Rozaje, and in the afternoon, as I said here, these men were
18 taken in three groups. This went on for almost two hours. Mr. Rasevic
19 would come from the gate with a list and he would call out people's names
20 in different rooms, telling them to take their belongings and to get
21 ready. And then the guards would come and take them to the gate where
22 they were all grouped, and then they would go out, one by one or two by
23 two, and then probably because they had to be searched, they would get out
24 through the gate slower. As one group would leave, then another list
25 would be brought and then they would leave in the same way, and then the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 list for the third group came.
2 So at one moment I asked Rasevic at the door when he was calling
3 out people's names, I said, "Has the moment come for us all to go?" And
4 he said, "I don't know, I'm very busy. This is going on now." So we
5 thought with this group of 55, that indeed the decisions of the London
6 conference were being implemented.
7 Q. And you have listed -- among these people who were taken out, you
8 have listed Hasan Dzano and Emir Mandzo. Are these the two that you have
9 told us about who were beaten up in your room?
10 A. Yes, yes, yes.
11 Q. And what, what did you hear about these people who were taken on
12 that day? Are they missing? Did they survive? Did they show up?
13 A. Also through their families, I know that absolutely no one from
14 these groups has been heard from since then, except for the people who I
15 mentioned, those who had taken the bus.
16 The 55 who were taken away and who were supposed to be exchanged
17 through Montenegro, their names were called out in the morning. They got
18 ready. They were in a room next to the restaurant because they were
19 waiting for the bus. They boarded the bus. They left. However, in the
20 early evening, the entire group reappeared all of a sudden at the KP Dom.
21 These 55 persons were split up because 32 -- actually, that same
22 day when that group of 71 had been called out, that night when they were
23 taken away, 23 were put into a room next to us, but that was in a
24 different wing of the building. I think this was Room 13, where they
25 spent the entire night. And we found out from them that Pero Elez had
1 returned them. He was a Vojvoda in the Serb hierarchy. Just before
2 Niksic, he said, "Everyone goes back." These 23 were taken by bus again
3 on the next day, and when I got out of the camp, I found out that they
4 were then taken to Rozaje, actually.
5 These names are included in that group, all of them, and they all
6 contacted their families. They're all alive today except for Hamdija
7 Hadzimuratovic who's died in the meantime. He was a heart patient anyway,
8 and he passed away in Denmark.
9 Q. But you mentioned the 71 detainees that were taken on that same
10 day, and you have listed Hasan Dzano, Emir Mandzo, and Sanin Kulelija.
11 Did you get information that any of these 71 survived, be it later on?
12 A. I wish that were true, but not a single one has been heard from.
13 Actually, they're missing.
14 Q. And you have listed an exchange for the 10th September 1992, and
15 you have listed there 41 detainees were taken on that day.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What can you tell us about their fate?
18 A. Among them is this group Divjan, Fadil; Kafedzic, Edhem;
19 Hadzimesic, Meho; Semso Cankusic; Reko. That is the son of the hodza who
20 was well-known as a kind of witch doctor, too.
21 In that group was this young one, Rahman. He was the youngest of
22 all. His father worked in my mine. This Rahman was the youngest; he was
24 None of them has been heard since then. Fadil Divjan and I said
25 good-bye to each other and - how should I put this? - he lent me 50
1 Deutschemarks. None of them has contacted my family or me personally.
2 Q. And the group that you have listed, 50 detainees were taken on the
3 12th September 1992, what can you tell us about them?
4 A. That was a period when people were taken out very intensively. I
5 mean "intensively," every week something was going on. So we were all
6 convinced that during the month of September we would all be exchanged, so
7 we didn't pay that much attention to it anymore because we thought that
8 our detention was just about over, and we were all hoping that we would
9 see each other somewhere else.
10 Nezbur is there, too, who is the brother of Asim, the
11 photographer. I know about him for sure, that he's been missing. I mean,
12 he's never been heard from since.
13 Q. And you have listed under 17 September 1992, you listed groups --
14 two groups that were called out for picking plums. Can you tell us what
15 happened on the 17th of September?
16 A. On the 17th of September, the guard on duty came again, and first
17 he asked for a sort of work group to volunteer, and a number of people
18 volunteered. And there were some of us who also said, Well, yes, take us
19 if this is some kind of action, because we all wanted to get out, really.
20 If you would go out like that, then you would get bigger meals, too.
21 However, nevertheless, he came with a list and called out certain persons'
22 names. He did not accept any volunteers, although people had volunteered.
23 So in that group -- I mean, before lunch a group was called out.
24 This was around 20 past 10, and they were all in my room for the most
25 part, those whose names were called out, that is to say, Hajro Klinac,
1 Edib Muminovic. Then this Dzano, Ramiz, the taxi driver from Ustikolina.
2 Halid Konjo, the brother of the previously-mentioned Konjo. He is
3 one of the persons whose corpses were identified because last year a
4 commission found the corpses of these seven persons from that group. As
5 for Halid Konjo, his mortal remains were buried in Sarajevo last year.
6 Q. These other persons that you -- are listed here and named in
7 regard of this group, did you hear of them again? Did you have contact
8 with their relatives, and do you know if they are still missing?
9 A. Unfortunately, they are still registered as missing because
10 another one of my wife's brothers, Mirsad Hadzimesic, is among them, too.
11 Q. And you have listed a group for that same day of plum pickers that
12 were taken out later that day.
13 A. Yes. Just to digress a bit; as for this plum picking, I heard
14 about that from the guard in the camp because we expected these men to
15 come back the same night. Since they did not come back that night, on
16 next day others asked me to ask, and I did ask Vlatko Pljevaljcic, a guard
17 in the camp, what was going on with these people; what was going on with
18 them? And he said, "Don't worry, they'll come back after they pick
19 plums. They're picking plums." So that's where this term comes from,
20 "plum picking."
21 Q. And did they come back?
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. You have listed in your notes five names, Mirsad Hadzimesic, Murat
24 Crneta, Dzemo Balic, Gordan Hukovic, and Nermin Pasovic. Did you inquire
25 about their fate, and what did you find out?
1 A. Pasovic, Nermin, his father recently died in Sarajevo. I know
2 that his son never called again. Balic, Dzemo, his brothers are in
3 Sarajevo. I talked to them. He's never returned. Crneta, Murat, an
4 engineer, he worked in Maglic. He was one of the directors. His wife
5 Zineta, with a degree in economics, worked at the SDK. That's a financial
6 institution in the former system. He's never been heard of since. And
7 then my brother-in-law, Mirsad Hadzimesic. And I don't know about
8 Sulejman, I haven't heard from his family, but I imagine that he's never
9 been heard of since as well.
10 Q. You have listed also an exchange for 11th of December, 1992. What
11 can you tell us about this exchange?
12 A. That was a group that was brought in, or rather, singled out of
13 the rooms, from Room 16. And this eighth person, I don't know his name,
14 he was taken from Room 18 and also from our room.
15 Fahrudin Malkic worked at the Ones [phoen] factory. He was a
16 school mate of mine, an acquaintance of mine. He's never been heard of.
17 Aziz Sahinovic, a distant relative of my wife's. His wife was a director
18 of the bank in Foca. She works in Sarajevo today. She's there with her
19 daughters. They've never heard from their father. Ekrem Cengic, he is
20 the brother of another Cengic who worked in the National Defence
21 Department in Foca. He's never been heard of.
22 Halim Dedovic, the barber I talked about. Ibrahim Kafedzic, I
23 assume the same thing, but I haven't had any contact with his close
24 relatives. Also as for these, Lagarija, the father of those twins who had
25 been taken away before.
1 And this Slovenian journalist, Alojz Krivograd, who was brought in
2 from an isolation cell, I heard of his details in Samobor, in Zagreb. His
3 family expressed interest, and also journalists from his newspaper got in
4 contact with me and asked me whether I knew anything about him. However,
5 I could not say anything to them, and I told them to get in touch with the
6 Red Cross and others because they had not heard from him until the time
7 when I was making these lists.
8 Q. So in relation to the people you just mentioned, they are missing,
9 and you heard it from their relatives or the newspaper?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You have listed an incident on 16 January 1993 referring to three
12 from the Cengic family. What can you tell us about this incident? What
13 happened? What did you see?
14 A. These three persons were together in the same room, in Room 21.
15 Actually, we found them there when we were brought there in December, from
16 18 to 16, that is. They were in that room and with them was another man,
17 (redacted), who was brought in from the hospital.
18 On that day or, rather, the day before that because they were
19 taken away on the 16th, the guard came and called out all of their three
20 names, but he said that he -- they should come but not take anything with
21 them, that they should go to see the warden at the administrative
22 building. Fehim Cengic, I mentioned that here, he was a blind person. He
23 was aged over 60; Hilmo Cengic was in his 50s, he worked for me at the
24 mine as a guard; and Muhamed Cengic who was over 80 years old.
25 When they returned, then Hilmo told me that at the warden, at
1 warden's office they found a high-ranking military officer who questioned
2 them, what kind of relations they had, et cetera, because an intervention
3 had come from very high places, from Milosevic personally, that they
4 should be exchanged, because their brother Fahrudin Cengic, who worked in
5 Sarajevo before the war, was the director of Autobosna, and he was in a
6 pretty high position. He was a personal friend of Slobodan Milosevic's,
7 and through him he intervened so that his brothers could be released.
8 Q. This information, did you hear it from the three Cengices, or you
9 said Hilmo Cengic, or what you just told us, did you hear that from Hilmo?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Did Hilmo mention if the warden was present when they talked to
12 this high-ranking military person?
13 A. Yes, yes. He mentioned that the warden was in the office and that
14 one of the commanders was there. I don't know, that's what he said, but I
15 don't know who was this commander in Foca at that time.
16 Q. Did Hilmo mention the warden, or did he actually mention the name
17 of the warden? Do you recall how he spoke about it?
18 A. In that conversation he just mentioned the warden. In such
19 conversations, we did not go into any kind of details; we would just said
20 "the warden." It was not that his name was mentioned. He concentrated,
21 actually, on the officer who was questioning him and who probably asked
22 him in greater detail about how come Slobodan Milosevic knew about them.
23 Q. Do you know who this military officer was? Did Hilmo mention his
25 A. No, no. We can only make assumptions. Later on, I found out that
1 two colonels from the JNA were brought to high-ranking military positions
2 in Foca, Mr. Kovacevic and Mr. Bozevic. I personally do not know them,
3 though, and I did not know them before the war either, but they are people
4 whose family origins are from the Foca area.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, we have exhausted the list and
6 I would now again like to enter this into evidence. The Defence counsel
7 have seen, meanwhile, the originals, but we would like to enter the copies
8 into evidence.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Bakrac?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said yesterday that I
11 do not insist. However, my learned colleague said that we've seen the
12 originals. We have seen the original of this other document that was
13 written in hand, but this other document we saw only in photocopied form.
14 However, we do not object. We do not object to its being admitted into
16 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not altogether certain which is the document that
17 you have not seen the original of.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution does only have the original
19 of the printed document that the witness wrote in printed letters.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We do -- our original, so to speak, is also a
22 copy and can you -- maybe Mr. Lojo can clarify it.
23 Q. The original of your first notes, did you maybe send them
24 somewhere? Because you did not provide the originals to us, to the
25 Prosecutor. What did you do with the originals of your first notes; do
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 you recall?
2 A. I think that I gave the first original to a journalist who used
3 this for writing an article when I was in Samobor, and this other one is
4 basically the first one rewritten, except with some additional
5 explanations and things like that. So I consider the second one to be an
6 authentic document, a source document, that I relied on the most.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that having been cleared up, you have no other
8 objection, Mr. Bakrac?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have already said, Your Honour,
10 that I do not object. I just wanted to be clear, because we heard it
11 being said that we had seen the originals. We had not seen the originals
12 but we do not object to the photocopies being admitted into evidence.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, they will be Exhibits P215 and
14 P215A. Should they be under seal? Are there any names there that are
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There are a few names of witnesses among
17 those exchange -- names of the exchanged people, protected witnesses.
18 JUDGE HUNT: They are?
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
20 JUDGE HUNT: They will both be under seal.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
22 Q. Mr. Lojo, while were you in the KP Dom, did you have to work in
23 the prison?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was there actually a group of people who worked, a permanent group
1 of people who worked?
2 A. Yes. At first, this work was carried out in the following way.
3 Before that, on two or three occasions, lists were compiled in July and
4 August of all the detainees; name, surname, occupation, date of birth or
5 rather year of birth. And probably in order to meet the needs of the KP
6 Dom, individually persons were taken out of various rooms, persons who had
7 different specialities -- masons, mechanics, electricians, carpenters,
8 painters -- probably people who were needed to do something at the KP
10 Later on, the administration realised that that is how external
11 information reached the rooms directly, so then they actually concentrated
12 all these people who went out to work in one room only.
13 Q. You do not need to go into the details because we have other
14 witnesses who were actually in this group, but --
15 JUDGE HUNT: We are also running out of time.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, sorry, yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn now until 11.30.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Witness, Mr. Lojo, before the break, we briefly touched on the
23 issue of work in the prison, and I would only like to discuss two aspects
24 of this. First of all, was work voluntary, or were the detainees forced
25 to work?
1 A. Under the circumstances, we can say in a manner of speaking that
2 there was no coercion. People were happy to join the work teams for the
3 simple reason that it enabled them to get a better meal, more food, and
4 thus, they were not threatened by starvation.
5 And secondly, they were not confined to a very small space, being
6 only with the group, because you must know that we were never allowed to
7 leave our rooms for a second. And if you went out to work, it meant going
8 out. It meant some physical exercise, and it meant being in the open air.
9 Q. Did the detainees have to work on the front lines?
10 A. I do not have any such knowledge, with exception of one group of
11 four or five of them, I don't know exactly. One of them was Uzeir Alic,
12 Mehmedalija Lojo from my room. They were taken sometime in September, and
13 they told me afterwards when they returned that they had been taken to
14 military positions facing Gorazde, and that they had been employed to make
15 dugouts. That was a part of preparations for the fortification of lines
16 for the forthcoming winter, I suppose.
17 Q. When did they have to do that?
18 A. Well, they did it, as I told you, in September and October.
19 Q. And how often did they have to do that?
20 A. One group went and they were absent for about 20 days from the KP
21 Dom, that is, they spent that time at the front line.
22 Q. Did they tell you about the conditions in which they stayed
23 there? Did they actually stay there overnight?
24 A. Oh, they spent all their time there. I mean, they slept there.
25 As for the conditions, from what they told me, they were not physically
1 ill-treated. Perhaps somebody abused them verbally, but they were
3 Q. I was wondering, did they tell you how they slept? Did they have
4 tents, or did they have to sleep in the open, if they talked about it?
5 A. No, we did not go into those details. What we wanted to know
6 basically was the fact that they had been taken away, we did not know
7 where, and that they came back, that is, that they were still alive.
8 Q. Did detainees work in the Miljevina mine while you were in the KP
10 A. No. While I was there, nobody worked in the mine, except for one
11 individual who worked in Miljevina and in the mine now and then, and that
12 was a car mechanic, Hamdo Hadzic, and he stayed in the police station.
13 And before me, that is, before I came to the KP Dom, according to
14 statements of people in the camp who shared my room, and among them there
15 were also some workers of mine, in May a large group of some 20 men was
16 returned from the KP Dom. They were all former workers of the Miljevina
17 mine who had begun to work in the mine for a short time sometime in May -
18 I learnt about that from their families subsequently - but then for the
19 reason that I do not know, the Serb authorities, rather the mine
20 management, cut short their work there, and they were to be brought back
21 to the camp. That is what they had been told. But they were never
22 brought back to the camp and there are no further news about them. And
23 after I left the camp, reportedly, people from the camp went to the mine
24 and worked, but that was in 1993 and that was after me.
25 Q. While you were in the KP Dom, did you ever meet journalists and
1 talk to them?
2 A. Yes. Once, in August, and it was after the 18th, after the London
3 conference. A group of three or four journalists came, and from what I
4 know, one of them was a journalist of Ekspres Politika, at least that's
5 what he -- the paper that he told us he came from. He was escorted by a
6 soldier -- by a guard, excuse me, and Mr. Rasevic, and in the anteroom, in
7 our anteroom, in front of the lavatory and the WC, we gathered around
8 those journalists, a large group of us who were in that room, and they
9 asked us, one of the first questions was: What did we have to say as
10 prisoners of war about a statement by Mr. Izetbegovic about -- and they
11 mentioned a position that then 25, 40, something about that camp; that is,
12 how did he rank the camp in Foca? And I reacted to what he said, that we
13 were prisoners of war, and I said that from -- to the best of my
14 knowledge, none of us had been brought from the front line, that we were
15 all civilians, down to the last one, and I indicated this boy Rahman, who
16 was 15, Hamdija Hadzimuratovic, who had a heart condition, had arrived
17 from the hospital, myself, and I said, "This one comes from the hospital,
18 that one from the street, that one from his flat, and others were brought
19 from their workplaces, like my brother-in-law from the health centre."
20 And I said we were brought only because we were members of a non-Serb
22 Q. How did these journalists react to that?
23 A. From what I know, we did not talk long because there were others
24 -- no. He said nothing.
25 Q. And these journalists, were they Serbs, from Serbia or were they
1 -- where did they come from?
2 A. Basically journalists, as far as I could see, they were not
3 foreigners, whether they came from Serbia or Montenegro, that is that part
4 which was covered by all -- from the part which was controlled by the SDS,
5 I don't know.
6 Q. Did you tell them about the bad conditions and about the beatings?
7 A. They never asked us that, and I don't think it was very advisable
8 to talk about that. But they could see from how we looked, they could
9 learn enough about that. They didn't have to ask anything.
10 Q. Why did you think it was not advisable to mention it?
11 A. Well, yesterday, I mentioned a name, Alija from Gorazde, a
12 salesman, now his surname comes back to me, it's Cardaklija. He was
13 brought, as I said, from Montenegro, and he was very -- he was shocked by
14 the conditions and everything. He was very afraid, and then he wrote a
15 letter to the warden, encouraged by -- or, rather, that's what the guards
16 recommended to him. He wrote to the warden. I guess he wrote it to him.
17 I did not read it but I saw that he put his requests on two or three
18 sheets of paper. And after he handed over his request, he was called for
19 interview -- for an interview, and I do not know his fate afterwards.
20 So that I don't think any complaints would have been of any help
21 to us; quite the reverse. I think that if you asked for something, if you
22 had some requests, you could only run into trouble.
23 Q. Were these the only journalists that you -- that ever came to the
24 KP Dom while you were there? Or did you meet any other?
25 A. Well, yes. I don't know if it was an American or an English team,
1 a lady and the technicians, I mean, cameramen. It was sometime in June,
2 as far as I can remember, the latter half, or perhaps early July. I can't
3 remember the exact date. As far as I know, they did not enter our rooms.
4 They did their recording outside, that is prisoners who were outside and
5 those who were at the windows. And at some point, this lady journalist
6 came to us because we were in Room 16, which is on the ground floor, and
7 she was beckoned by the prisoners and she came closer, and Mr. Medim
8 Tatarevac, who spoke English, and he said a few words to her, that we were
9 not there of our own free will and that we had not been captured in the
10 battlefield, and could she help us to have us released from there? Many
11 of them also asked for cigarettes because, you know -- I mean, when you
12 smoke, you cannot resist. And that was the only communication with them.
13 And that team did not stay there long.
14 Q. Who was the pre-war warden of the KP Dom? Before the war, who was
15 the warden?
16 A. The warden of the civilian part before the war broke out was
17 Radojica Tesovic.
18 Q. Who was the warden during the war?
19 A. From what I know, the commander of the camp was Milorad Krnojelac.
20 Q. At the beginning of the testimony you mentioned that Muslim
21 managers were replaced by Serbs, but wasn't Mr. Tesovic a Serb?
22 A. Radojica Tesovic, yes, he was a Serb.
23 Q. Why was he replaced?
24 A. From what I know about Mr. Tesovic, he was a highly-accomplished,
25 a highly-educated man, and he was quite an expert in criminal sanctions,
1 and from this I inferred that he did not -- he was rather reluctant to
2 take over that function because he was not a person who would do such
3 things or -- we were personal friends.
4 He was all for education. He applied adult education and
5 rehabilitation measures in the KP Dom Foca, and Foca enjoyed the
6 reputation of one of the most civilised prisons, penitentiaries, in the
7 former Yugoslavia. So I simply think he could not accept to run something
8 like that, anything like that.
9 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How do you know him?
12 A. I met Mr. Krnojelac in 1978 at that time when I was the secretary
13 of the municipal committee. It was the highest party post in the then
14 system. And in addition to the mayor of the municipality, I was the
15 second man. I mean, we held the most important posts in the municipality.
16 And at the time when I was the secretary of the committee, I was,
17 ex officio, head of the committee for all national defence and civil
18 protection. It was a body in the then Yugoslavia which existed in all the
19 municipalities in case of crisis, to deal with crisis. And all of the
20 leading executives in the municipality would sit on that body, I mean,
21 both the business managers and administrative leaders, and at times other
22 people would be drawn in. At that time, Mr. Krnojelac was the commander
23 of the reserve force.
24 Q. You say the commander of the reserve force. Was he the highest
25 local person in the military forces? What does it mean?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. The witness
2 did not say "the commander." He said "the president," and then said
3 reserve officer, and I think it was a slip rather than that he was the
5 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. The transcript records him as having
6 said, was "the commander" of the reserve force. Now, if the transcript is
7 right, then the question was appropriate. Are you saying that the answer
8 was wrongly recorded?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The witness said
10 that he was the president, and I think he even stopped, and I believe it
11 was a slip of the tongue, and then he said he was a reserve officer.
12 JUDGE HUNT: We're not -- just one moment. We're not interested
13 in slips of the tongue. What we are concerned with is what the witness
14 said. Now, if you say that it has been wrongly translated or wrongly
15 recorded in the transcript, we'll listen to you; but I'm not going to
16 change something because it was, as you say, a slip of the tongue.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] There is an error in the transcript,
18 Your Honours. He did not say "commander"; he said "president."
19 JUDGE HUNT: All right. We'll get it cleared up, then.
20 I think you'd better ask the question again.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
22 Q. What was the exact position of Mr. Krnojelac at that time? What
23 was he?
24 A. He was the president of the reserve force of the association of
25 reserve officers, and that existed in all the municipalities of
1 Yugoslavia. So he was not the commander. That is not a military
2 formation of any kind. It is an association -- you asked me how did I
3 know Mr. Krnojelac, so my first -- our first contacts date back to that
4 period, and that is long before the war. It's 1978, 1979.
5 It's an association which brings together all those who had served
6 the army but were not active officers. They were all members of that
7 association. They were officers from lieutenant to captains onwards, and
8 in that association they heard lectures about new military doctrines, new
9 weapons, and so on and so forth from time to time.
10 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac, did he have a military rank, and would you know
12 A. He did have a rank; I don't know which. I mean, I just don't
13 remember whether he was a lieutenant, a captain, I don't know.
14 Q. And you said he was the president of this association of reserve
15 officers. During which time period?
16 A. Well, I said while I was the secretary of the committee, so it was
17 1978, 1979, 1980, within that segment of time.
18 Q. Do you know why he stopped being the president of this
20 A. Well, you know, they had terms of office there, and I think -- I
21 don't really know the statute of that association, but when Tito died in
22 1981, this system of collective leadership was introduced with people
23 rotating in the leading posts, and that also covered the association. So
24 all of these posts, all these functions, I think, were for one-year
25 periods of time, that is, a term of office was one year.
1 Q. Did Mr. Krnojelac continue to be a reserve officer after 1980,
2 1981, as you said?
3 A. Yes, always. It was a lasting obligation as long as one was a
4 potential conscript. Under that system, nobody could be relieved of the
5 military obligation until the age of 70, except that one could be either
6 active duty or a member of the reserve force, that is, in the Territorial
7 Defence, or one could be assigned for a wartime labour duty if that went
8 with his function, but one could not be relieved of it. One could not
9 stop being a member of the reserve force.
10 Q. You just mentioned the age, when you reach a certain age you are
11 automatically out of this obligation. Are there other possibilities to
12 get out of this obligation to be in the reserve forces when you were an
14 A. Only in case of an illness, illness that would be such that would
15 preclude one from serving his military duty. Nothing else.
16 Q. How did you learn that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?
17 A. At that time when the war began and conflicts in Foca, we learnt
18 on various occasions who was on the other side and who was doing what on
19 that side, because to begin with, one could still move around the town
20 still, one still communicated. And the first people to be taken away,
21 including my wife's brother, he was taken away as early as the 9th of
22 April from the health centre to -- he was taken to Livade with another
23 group of health workers from the health centre. And after that when the
24 Muslim population withdrew from Donje Polje and where the KP Dom was
25 converted into a camp, they were all transferred from Livade and others
1 were brought into custody, including my other brother-in-law.
2 And during those first ten days, families were allowed to visit
3 the prisoners in the camp, and my wife and her mother went there to visit
4 them. And on that occasion, she learned from my brothers-in-law who ran
5 the camp, that is, about Mr. Krnojelac.
6 Q. And did you, did you ever speak with him while you were detained,
7 with Mr. Krnojelac?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did any of the prison staff members mention to you that Krnojelac
10 was the warden?
11 A. Once. I said that I was -- that Mr. Rasevic and I knew one
12 another, and in passing I asked him about Mr. Tesovic, what happened to
13 him. And he mentioned Mr. Krnojelac as a warden, and said that
14 Mr. Tesovic was temporarily at Velecevo at the KP Dom's farm.
15 Q. When did you have this conversation?
16 A. That was in the month of June, because he conveyed a message to me
17 that my family was still in Foca and that they were well.
18 Q. Did you talk with Mr. Rasevic on this occasion or on other
19 occasions about anything else in relation to KP Dom and how it was
21 A. No. There was some kind of secrecy involved. I think that the
22 staff of the KP Dom was kind of afraid of any kind of longer contact, so
23 any conversation would be two or three sentences only. With Mr. Rasevic,
24 I would talk only in passing, when he would come to our room. So you
25 couldn't ask him in the compound or somewhere else, only if he would enter
1 the room and talk to us. I know that once in July, he said to me that
2 some of my Serb friends were working on my release. That was all.
3 Q. Did you see the accused -- did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the
5 A. I saw Mr. Krnojelac a few times as he was passing from the gate
6 towards the canteen, towards where the laundry was, the kitchen. I don't
7 know what was being done.
8 Q. What was he doing when you saw him? Was he just walking?
9 A. What I saw was that he was just walking. I don't know whether he
10 was escorted by one person or two. Once I saw him on his own but, as a
11 rule, he always had someone with him.
12 Q. Who? Who was this other person or these other persons who were
13 with him?
14 A. Staff from the KP Dom.
15 Q. What was Mr. Krnojelac wearing when you saw him?
16 A. He wore a military uniform.
17 Q. And did you see a weapon on him?
18 A. Well, whether he carried a pistol or not, I could not say with 100
19 per cent certainty. Usually when the metal gate would close, you would
20 hear it, and from 16 we would look out and we would usually comment on who
21 this was, but if this person was not going towards us, it was not really
22 something that we would particularly register.
23 Q. Who was the second in command, do you know?
24 A. I cannot say who the second in command was because we did not see
25 a list on which we would see that this was the second in command or were
1 we ever told, "This is your commander, this is the second in command." It
2 is on the basis of how duties were carried out that we came to the
3 conclusion that Mr. Savo Todovic was the second in command, and that
4 Mr. Rasevic, because he did not do guard duty, was a commander or
5 something else, and Mr. Gagovic, who came later, was also part of the top
6 echelon of the camp.
7 Q. On what basis of facts did you conclude that Mr. Savo Todovic was
8 the second in the hierarchy?
9 A. Because he was the one who did the organising. We thought that he
10 was the one who was in charge of work duties. In principle, he was the
11 one who would assign people to go to work. Often he would come and carry
12 out individual conversations. I mean, in the guards' premises, he would
13 call people in for an interview, according to some criterion of his own --
14 we didn't realise what that was -- so that he would find out some pieces
15 of information, whatever. He would talk to some persons. So it is on
16 that basis that we concluded that he was the person who talked -- who
17 communicated between the inside of the camp and the leadership outside.
18 Q. What do you mean by that, "the leadership outside"?
19 A. Well, in my opinion, this can be inferred, or at least I can infer
20 this; the KP Dom had a warden and its leadership, so to speak, but then
21 the outside leadership of the SDS and the authorities in general would
22 give them instructions as to what would be done. It is probably those who
23 worked on this know this the best. We, the others, can only conclude this
24 on the basis of events, of the events that we have seen. But it is not on
25 the basis of some kind of internal organisation of theirs that we can
1 infer this.
2 Q. Did you have personal contacts with Mr. Todovic? Did you have
3 conversations with him?
4 A. As far as I can remember, no, I didn't. Once, but I cannot say
5 exactly whether it was he or Obrenovic that I talked to, or whether it was
6 both of them or one of them only. I know that I was there, but it was
7 something peripheral, some kind of information, but I can't remember now;
8 something that is unimportant, since I haven't remembered it, registered
10 Q. What was Mr. Todovic wearing when you saw him?
11 A. From time to time, he wore a military uniform, and from time to
12 time, he wore a blue KP Dom uniform.
13 Q. When you say "from time to time," does it mean during a certain
14 period or did it change from day to day? What does it mean?
15 A. Well, not from day to day. He didn't even come to the KP Dom any
16 day -- every day. But from what I noticed, sometimes he wore a military
17 uniform and sometimes he would wear the uniform that the KP Dom guards
18 wore. That is from the civilian period of the KP Dom.
19 Q. And Mr. Rasevic, what was he wearing when you saw him?
20 A. He always wore the uniform that he wore before the war as well, as
21 commander of the guard.
22 Q. And you mentioned this Mr. Gagovic. When did he come and what --
23 do you know him?
24 A. He came sometime in July. I did not know him personally from
1 Q. And what was his position? What did he do?
2 A. Well, he was a deputy or perhaps he held the same function as
4 Q. And how do you know that?
5 A. Well, I drew that conclusion from the fact that he toured guard
6 posts, and also, when there were those roll calls in the evening, he would
7 come, but he was not one of the guards who did shifts within the KP Dom.
8 And I found out from the others that he also worked at the KP Dom in
9 Zenica before the war as a kind of rehabilitation officer, so we came to
10 the conclusion that he was at a higher level than others.
11 Q. You have already mentioned that the guards were the former guards
12 that worked there before the war. What did they wear when you saw them?
13 A. Almost all the staff that worked on internal security, except for
14 persons who did not work in the KP Dom and who did work as guards inside,
15 they all wore blue uniforms, the ones that they had worn before the war.
16 Q. You said that you were detained until the 4th of April, 1993. Can
17 you tell us briefly -- not the details so much, the details. Can you
18 briefly tell us how you could leave the KP Dom?
19 A. I have already said that exchanges were in groups, individual, or
20 in smaller groups or individual. We did not know where and how people
21 were taken away. It was a Sunday, the 4th of April. Around 2.00,
22 according to the same procedure, a guard came to the door of our room, he
23 opened the door, he called out my name, he said that I should get ready, I
24 should take my belongings, and that I would be going for an exchange. I
25 got ready and I waited in the room for about 45 minutes. Then those who
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 were my friends gave me addresses and messages for me to convey to their
2 families once I was freed. Then the guard came and took me to the gate.
3 Three men had already brought there from the isolation cell. We
4 had never registered their existence. Probably they were brought in
5 sometime during the night when we could not see. They were all unkempt.
6 They had beards. I talked to them just a bit as we were waiting there to
7 be searched. I asked them where they were from. They were three peasants
8 from the village of Toholji. They were hiding, but then they were found
9 by their homes. That's what they said. So when they searched all four of
10 us and when they took some of the things that we had away from us, I had
11 had some notes, something having to do with the German language.
12 Everything that was in writing was taken away.
13 In front of the gate of the KP Dom we had a vehicle waiting for
14 us, a Russian-manufactured vehicle, GAZ, and there was a soldier there who
15 took us over, Filipovic. I can't remember his first name. He was a
16 waiter before the war. His nickname was Lovac.
17 Q. ... just the basic -- the most important facts.
18 A. The point is that they took us to -- that he took us to town, and
19 then very shortly he took me to Niksic under a false name. And in Niksic
20 I found out that my family, my wife, in various conversations that took
21 place before that, accepted to pay a certain amount of money for my
22 release, and that I would be freed if a certain price was paid.
23 Q. How high was the price?
24 A. I found out that they had asked for 100.000 Deutschemarks, but
25 they bargained and finally agreed on 80.000.
1 Q. Were 80.000 Deutschemarks paid for you, for your release?
2 A. Well, first 40.000 was paid, and then through the house that I had
3 in Tivat, an additional 20, or rather, the entire house, so let's say all
4 of it, yes.
5 Q. And to whom was it paid? Who got the money, and where did this
6 person get the money?
7 A. According to what Mr. Filipovic said, the person who escorted me,
8 there was some kind of agreement between the leadership, the military
9 leadership in Foca, and also the leadership of the camp was supposed to be
10 involved, too. Somebody who was meritorious. This was supposed to be
11 divided among them. And the money was handed over as I crossed the border
12 between Yugoslavia and Hungary at a duty-free shop.
13 Q. And who got the money? Who in person got the money; this
14 Filipovic you mentioned or someone else?
15 A. No, no, no. It was taken over by persons who were from Montenegro
16 who were intermediaries, organisers.
17 Q. On your way, either in Foca or through Niksic and to the borders,
18 was any -- did you meet any high-ranking military person? Would you know
19 who was involved from the military leadership that you mentioned?
20 A. No, no, I did not. But Filipovic himself who organised this, when
21 he left the GAZ vehicle and the three peasants, he came with a white Golf
22 to Foca with license plates that said the "Army of Republika Srpska."
23 That's the kind of license plates that he had. And he took me out in this
24 Golf, and then Tjentiste, Gacko, Bileca, we passed all of those under a
25 false name.
1 I had the identity card of a Serb, Ivanovic, and we pretended that
2 I was a person who was wounded and was being taken to Igalo for
3 recuperation. I don't know this man, and, of course, it would be strange
4 for somebody to get into the KP Dom and to get somebody out of it without
5 having received approval before that, somebody's permission.
6 Q. What became of the other three peasants you mentioned that were
7 taken out together with you, do you know?
8 A. Well, Filipovic left me with Dragan Todovic in a private Muslim
9 house until he returned, and this return took about an hour and a half or
10 two, because when he left me there, then he took those three away. I
11 don't know their names. I don't know what their fate was and whether
12 these persons ever reappeared anywhere.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
14 show the witness the document that is in the trial binders, ID 214. You
15 can use this.
16 Q. Please have a look at it, and this is a -- tell us what it is.
17 A. [No translation].
18 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment, sir. We're getting no translation of
19 any of that.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?
21 JUDGE HUNT: We can, now. There's no answer at all. Do you need
22 the answer to be repeated?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. It was being interpreted while it was
24 being given, yes.
25 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'd better ask the question again.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
2 Q. Can you explain what it is, this document?
3 A. This document bears the date of the 21st of December, 1992, in its
4 heading. It was obtained by my wife. She personally had requested it
5 from the office of the International Red Cross in Zagreb. In this
6 document, it says that I am in the camp, but that this is not on the basis
7 of the records established by the Red Cross but on the basis of the
8 records established by the local authorities. This is the provision of
9 the local authorities.
10 Later, in the Red Cross as I was trying to locate various persons,
11 I realised that this provision was written for many persons, although they
12 were missing. For example, for one of my wife's brothers, there's
13 nothing, and in the case of another one of her brothers, it says that he
14 was recorded by the local authorities.
15 We imagined that several lists were made in the KP Dom on several
16 occasions, and one of these lists reached the Red Cross, or only the list
17 that the camp authorities or the Serb authorities in Foca submitted to the
18 Red Cross.
19 Q. There is a date on this document saying a date of detention, 30
20 September 1992. Were you registered on that day by the Red Cross? Did
21 you see them there?
22 A. No. It says here "local authorities." That's the only thing it
23 says. As for the International Red Cross, in Zagreb I asked them why they
24 did not -- I mean, they gave certificates to other persons that I
25 mentioned, with their name, surname, and an internal number given to such
1 persons by the International Red Cross, and the date when this person was
2 registered as such. And other things are said only if somebody else had
3 seen this person. So the assumption is that they got a document from the
4 local authorities with the date of the 30th of September, 1992. That is
5 the only explanation.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the word "local authorities" --
7 the words "local authorities," are they the ones on the last line of the
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't have the document right now. I gave
10 my version -- yes, yes.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. The Prosecution would like
13 to enter this document into evidence.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The document will be Exhibit P214.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Mr. Lojo, did you suffer any long-term physical or psychological
19 consequences of your detention?
20 A. I tried to the best of my ability to prevent any kind of adverse
21 effects. While we were in camp, we had a group of doctors with us, and
22 they kept telling us what this starvation can do to us. When I left the
23 camp, I weighed about 57 or 58 kilograms. I had lost about 38 kilograms
24 then. The doctors said that further exhaustion could lead to further
25 atrophy of all the internal organs. There can be anorexia, and we might
1 even pass away even without physical mistreatment. In Samobor, I received
2 some medication and underwent this gradual recuperation. It was difficult
3 for my organism to take all of this in, so my feet and legs would swell.
4 As for the psychological consequences, a person remembers all of
5 this every now and then. You try to suppress it, but then when you see
6 the families of the persons who are no longer there, this keeps bringing
7 it back to you, but I try to accept this so that there are no further
8 consequences. But what else life has in store, that you never know.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, these are the questions of the
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
12 Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lojo.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. I'm Mihajlo Bakrac, attorney at law and one of the defence counsel
18 for the accused Mr. Krnojelac. I will start with my questions from the
19 very beginning, the beginning of your examination-in-chief yesterday.
20 Yesterday you spoke of the Serb forces and Serb people, et cetera.
21 What about the Muslim people in Foca, the Muslim entity in Foca; did they
22 also have their armed units?
23 A. The form of organisation of the military part, we cannot say that
24 it existed. There were legal institutions of the state, and I think that
25 legal institutions are those that voted as they did in the referendum
1 which was accepted by the Badinter commission; that is to say, that most
2 citizens had opted for an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Until agreement was reached at the conference, I mean, there is
4 the confusion between Serb forces of this kind and that kind. And whether
5 on the Muslim side there were some forces, some people that were
6 organised, there were some, but you cannot say that they were military
7 formations. There was fear because Foca was in a specific position.
8 There were threats from the Serb side. Because Foca was the host town of
9 the founding assembly of the SDA, they said that Foca would have a price
10 to pay.
11 Q. I did not quite understand what you said. The congress when the
12 SDA was established was held in Foca?
13 A. No, well, I didn't mean the congress. I meant a rally that was
14 held, a big rally in Foca.
15 Q. Do you know how many people rallied together at this rally?
16 A. Yes, there were about 100.000.
17 JUDGE HUNT: You are both speaking over the translators. Please
18 pause after the answer before you ask the question, Mr. Bakrac, and Mr.
19 Lojo, would you please pause after the question before you start your
20 answer? Thank you.
21 A. Right.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I made a mistake
23 for not having cautioned the witness about this, but I do apologise.
24 Q. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Lojo, the fact that this
25 meeting involving 100.000 persons in -- was held in Foca, that led to
1 Muslims arming themselves? Did I understand you correctly?
2 A. No. I don't agree with any nationalist party that was
3 established; I have to say that. So in that respect, I did not agree with
4 this kind of rally or also the way in which it was prepared and the way it
5 manifested itself. However, it was a pretext for certain Serb forces --
6 and you know that the rally was held, because in 1942, in Foca, a big
7 crime was committed by the Chetnik forces when over two and a half
8 thousand persons were killed. This kind of manifestation was not
9 appropriate. But that is why there were threats that were issued. Then
10 the SDA and the SDS were coalition partners, but in form rather than in
11 substance. They took over. They took over power in Foca. And after this
12 rally, a big rally of the SDS was held in Foca. So how should I put
13 this? There was this potential conflict that was in the making between
14 the two at the time.
15 Just one more thing: In Cajnice, in 1991, on a big holiday, you
16 can find it in the press also, Mr. Maksimovic said that Foca will either
17 be Serb or it will be no more, and it was for these reasons why people
18 began to feel fear, and events around the Focatrans.
19 Q. You follow the press. Would you know from the press or from
20 television that Senad Sahinpasic, called Saja said publicly, and wrote
21 that, even before, a long time before the conflict broke out, he had been
22 arming Muslims in Foca?
23 A. I don't know what he wrote. And as for the statements that the
24 arming was going on on the other side too, yes.
25 Q. What does "the other side" mean?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. When you say members SDA.
2 Q. So your answer is yes, is it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Lojo, you also spoke about the SDS Crisis Staff. Did the SDA
5 have its Crisis Staff?
6 A. That form of organisation did not exist that I would call a Crisis
7 Staff. I can't really speak with competence about certain things. From
8 Taid Lojo, because I was not a member of the party, but he's a relative
9 and he was municipal mayor, and I heard from him that the Muslim Bajram,
10 which was the 3rd, 4th and the 5th, would be a bloody time for Muslims.
11 And because of this situation, because in Foca was really the most typical
12 of them all, he called various people, he called me, as the mine manager,
13 "What do we do? How do we preserve peace after the first strike?" We
14 believed profoundly, and I did, that the international community would
15 prevent any large-scale conflict, because you must know that on the 6th of
16 April, the European Community and the United States had recognised
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we thought that that recognition would help the
18 reason to prevail, at least in the early days, to preserve peace, not to
19 have any fighting.
20 Q. I didn't really understand what you were saying. My question was
21 whether there was a Crisis Staff, and you said that perhaps that was not
22 how you would call it but a form of organisation?
23 A. That Crisis Staff in the --
24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Lojo, I know it's hard but it's very difficult.
25 You're making it almost impossible for the interpreters. Just wait until
1 the question has been translated. You should be actually able to hear
2 something in your earphones. Now you proceed with your answer. I'm sorry
3 to have interrupted you.
4 A. I apologise, I apologise, but the communication -- so in the SDA,
5 there was a form, I wouldn't call it a Crisis Staff, but the SDA had it,
6 but to we who were executives there, without being a party leader, we
7 would be called and our advice would be sought as to what to do.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. You said yesterday that after a group of
9 Serbs was killed, a PA system mounted on a car announced to the Muslims
10 not to leave their homes. Doesn't it sound logical to you that what it
11 meant was to protect them, was the protection of Muslims, to avoid any
12 vengeance? How did you interpret this announcement after those Serbs were
14 A. Yes, that is what I said, but I wouldn't interpret it as a result
15 of their wish to protect us, although perhaps some may interpret it that
16 way. I rather think that it was another form of repression, that those
17 who were still there could possibly be resettled or perhaps brought into
18 the camp, because there were murders of Muslims before that. Quite a
19 number of members of well-known families there had been killed.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. You mentioned pressure to force the Muslims
21 to move out. You already said here, and I do not think this is in
22 dispute, that you already gave a statement to OTP investigators on the
23 25th and 26th of April, 1996. Is that correct?
24 A. If this is the one that the Prosecutor's office has here, because
25 I don't know the date.
1 Q. Would it be of any help --
2 A. I only gave one statement, I think.
3 Q. Would it help you if I showed you the statement? That is the
4 statement that we were given by the OTP. And it has the signature and it
5 says that this statement was read out to you in the Bosnian language and
6 is true to the best of your knowledge and recollection. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, is it correct that in that statement on page 3, you said the
10 "On the 11th of April, 1992, the SDS gave an ultimatum --
11 submitted an ultimatum to the Muslims to hand over all the weapons. I
12 learned that from Taid Lojo who told me about the ultimatum. After the
13 ultimatum, many Muslims decided to flee Foca by whatever means available
14 to them because SDA had said that the Muslims should leave during the
15 night between the 14th and 15th April, 1992."
16 Is that your statement?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. Just now you said that the Muslims left under pressure. Now we
19 hear that you stated -- and you said that it is correct -- that it was the
20 SDA which advised Muslims to leave Foca and that Muslims were leaving
22 A. Just let me clarify it. Yes, I did say that. Because the SDS
23 played a double role all the time. In the evening they were conducting
24 negotiations about peace, and then they appointed a group, and I was also
25 nominated for that group, the group to supervise the cease-fire. And
1 meanwhile, new groups, new forces, were being brought in. And I must say
2 that, at first instance, not even the Serb population, either the majority
3 of them, did not favour war, because in those first two or three days, we
4 jointly hid in cellars. But to encourage war and the conflict, they were
5 looking for as conflicting situation as possible. They never complied
6 with the cease-fire and they began to use the weapons - the SDS, I mean -
7 without any cause or reason, and those weapons, rather shells, began to
8 hit the areas where they were Muslim majorities. The SDS -- when I said
9 ultimatum, the SDS requested that weapons be handed over without
10 guaranteeing your life. And they had much stronger forces, especially
11 with the help of the JNA troops, because there were armoured cars and
12 vehicles. And the SDA -- when I say recommended, that is advised, because
13 in Donje Polje, there were concentrations there, they recommended it
14 because so as to avoid victims because the people panicked. They didn't
15 know where to get away from those shells so as to move towards Ustikolina
16 and further on, because there was a danger that these might enter and
17 slaughter them all. Members of the White Eagles and others; in the early
18 days Foca was full of them.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. Tell us also, are you aware that any of
20 high-ranking SDA officials from Sarajevo issued such advice, such
21 instructions, in other places to the Muslims, threatening even that those
22 who didn't want to leave would have to do that?
23 A. I am not aware of that.
24 Q. Mr. Lojo, I'm going back to your statement that you made to OTP
25 investigators, in which you said that you were first put in Room 16, and
1 you repeated that in your testimony, and that you were also in Rooms 11
2 and 21. During the examination-in-chief, you never mentioned Room 11.
3 A. I think it is an error. I do not think who wrote 11. I said 18.
4 What the translator said I don't know, because 11 did not exist any
5 longer -- I mean, there was nobody there.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. Yesterday with regard to poor diet, poor
7 food in the KP Dom, you were asked by my learned friend and you said that
8 you were sure it was a deliberate attempt on the part of the Serb
9 authorities to starve you. In your notes that we saw here before the
10 Court I found the following, and it was written by your hand: "The supply
11 with foodstuffs is poor. The shops are not working, and one or two which
12 do work have run out of supplies."
13 I don't want to read it all, but that was within the context of
14 the situation in Foca at the time of your detention.
15 A. That is true. That is what I wrote. That was the situation in
16 the town itself. That is not the situation in those parts which are
17 controlled by the army, and the army controls the flour mill, the trading
18 company. It controls all the warehouses in the town itself, and
19 unfortunately that is how it was, even though apart from Donje Polje there
20 was not much fighting. But the department store, and I said yesterday,
21 and all the shops in the centre of the town were looted and ransacked by
22 Serb military authorities. I saw it through the window. And those were
23 not Focans, those were man who had come from Serbia. They were pulling
24 out things from Maglic stores, and that is what I meant, that organisation
25 of life in the town and life in the town was that way.
1 Why it was, well, that is something that those who ran the town
2 should know and those whom they had brought. So it was a situation, a
3 desperate situation. But as for the food itself, they themselves had
4 enough of it.
5 Q. So if I understand you properly, you said that the economic
6 situation, and now you have told us, was intolerable. Now, you just
7 said -- now, you spoke about the impossible situation, about a very bad
8 situation. You were referring to the economic situation, weren't you?
9 And you have to tell me, not to nod your head.
10 A. No, no, no, I will. I will tell you. I'm just waiting for the
11 interpretation to end.
12 I'm referring to the town itself, but I must mention, was that
13 the -- was that how the Serb authorities treated their own people? I
14 won't go into it. And that is what I meant. Because wheat from the flour
15 mill, and I can confirm it, were taken by vehicles from Montenegro. Why
16 they were depriving themselves of food, I do not know.
17 But in Perucica, which was a trade company, it belonged to the
18 military before the war, and they had large food reserves. What did they
19 do with that? Did they feed the Serb people with that? I don't know.
20 But as for the army and all the others, that was not the way to
21 feed us, the way they did.
22 Q. Now, if I understand your answer, you say that you were fed by the
23 army in the camp?
24 A. No, not the army, but the camp must have been under the patronage
25 of the army.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. Yesterday when you answered the questions
2 asked of you by my learned friend, you said that in the camp, in the
3 prison, there was one Alija you say from Gorazde, and I think you recalled
4 his last name today, that he was called Alija Cardaklija, and that he
5 complained of the conditions, that he sent these to the warden, and that
6 two days later he was taken out and did not return. You also said that
7 none -- that nobody else dared do something like that.
8 In your statement to the OTP, you never once mention this person,
9 Alija Cardaklija, nor that incident with his writing; but instead on page
10 4 of your statement, you wrote the following: "I talked to the superiors
11 complaining of food and conditions. Perhaps it wasn't a wise thing to do,
12 but I felt I could do that."
13 Now is that correct, that you complained of the food and
15 A. It is correct. I spoke with Mr. Rasevic. I asked him, "Can
16 something be done about the food?"
17 Q. And did something happen to you after that?
18 A. No, not to me.
19 Q. Then why didn't you mention this incident with Alija Cardaklija?
20 Why didn't you mention it to the OTP before today?
21 A. Well, I suppose you can take it I couldn't really remember all the
22 incidents at the time I gave my statements. It depended on questions that
23 I was asked by investigators.
24 Q. Thank you. Today you told us that you also spoke to journalists
25 and that you assumed came from Serbia, and that you said how you were not
1 soldiers, that one man came from the street, and so on and so forth. I
2 won't repeat it. Could this be also interpreted as an objection to your
4 A. Yes, one could interpret it as an objection.
5 Q. Did something untoward happen to you after that?
6 A. To me personally, no.
7 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you also said that your room was
8 above a warehouse -- above the storage room. Which room did you have in
10 A. Room 16.
11 Q. And you said that the Room 16 was above the makeshift storage
13 A. I mean there was a vehicle with the canvas raised, and through the
14 window we could see foodstuffs loaded onto it.
15 Q. So there wasn't a storage room, there was a vehicle below; do I
16 understand you well? What kind of a vehicle?
17 A. Military.
18 Q. Did you see this food being loaded, unloaded, or just there in
19 that truck?
20 A. It was being unloaded.
21 Q. And where was it being taken?
22 A. To the storage room.
23 Q. Is that the storage room which was below your room?
24 A. I guess so. I guess it was below my room.
25 Q. But are you -- do you know that there was a storage room below
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 you, or is it a guess?
2 A. Well, I did not have an opportunity to go out and check whether it
3 was directly beneath my room.
4 Q. And when you went out for your meals, couldn't you see whether
5 there was a storage room there?
6 A. From that distance, I couldn't really identify all the rooms, but
7 on the front side -- it can be clarified if you have a sketch of the KP
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. You also said -- you also answered one of
10 the questions in the examination-in-chief that one of the detainees who
11 worked in the farm, that you were infested with lice from that person.
12 Was something done in the KP Dom about it?
13 A. From time to time, the male nurse, Jokanovic, would enable us to
14 come by powder against lice, and then we would use it.
15 Q. And was it the end of it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Yesterday and today you mentioned that some rooms -- or, rather,
18 rooms in the ground floor of the administrative building were painted
19 over. Was that also the case with windows of the prisoners' premises?
20 Were they closed in some way?
21 A. No. The detainees' windows were not painted over, and they were
22 of transparent glass.
23 Q. All rooms?
24 A. In all rooms.
25 Q. Is it correct that you also said that, perhaps in not so many
1 words, but throughout your stay in the KP Dom you never saw anyone beat
2 anyone except for that one incident, nor did you see anyone killed in the
3 KP Dom? I say "see."
4 A. Directly to have seen somebody being beaten or killed, no,
5 except ...
6 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct -- is it correct that you said that
7 detainees in upper rooms could hear objects being thrown into the Drina?
8 A. There were some comments in the morning in passing, that those
9 people would say how they had heard some splash against the water.
10 Q. So those were the comments?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Also page 5 of your statement, you say that you heard
13 about corpses which float down the river to Gorazde. During -- who
14 controlled Gorazde during the conflict? Who had the power in Gorazde?
15 A. The forces of BiH army held Gorazde, and it was on the radio. On
16 the transistor I heard Radio Sarajevo, and from time to time they gave the
17 names of persons who had been pulled out of the Drina arriving from the
18 direction of Foca, Josanica, and downstream towards Gorazde.
19 Q. That is, throughout the war, Gorazde was downstream, and it was
20 held by Muslims, and they pulled out those bodies which floated down the
21 Drina, if I understand you well?
22 A. Yes, but not all along the stream -- the course of the Drina
23 because from Josanica -- Ustikolina to Josanica, it was all held by Serb
25 Q. And downstream, then, it was Muslim forces?
1 A. From Josanica to Gorazde, yes, but the bodies were flowing from
2 the direction which was controlled by Serb forces.
3 Q. Did you ever learn if any of those persons was perhaps found in
4 the Drina or taken out of the Drina?
5 A. No, I did not hear about them, but I heard about another person
6 whose personal papers had been found and who came from Miljevina. It was
7 one of my workers who had been taken and allegedly returned.
8 Q. Did you find that person at KP Dom?
9 A. No, no, I did not.
10 Q. Am I right when I say that that group, which might include that
11 person whom you mentioned, could have been taken from the KP Dom to
12 Miljevina and did not come back to the KP Dom? Do you mean that group?
13 A. Yes, yes, I do.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, may I
15 repeat a question, because the transcript says that nobody was found of
16 those persons, and my question was about persons who were taken from the
17 KP Dom.
18 Q. So as to make it clear, did you also understand that I meant those
19 persons, and that your answer referred to those persons who had been taken
20 from the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Today you also spoke about another incident when three Cengices
23 were taken away from the KP Dom, or rather, released from the KP Dom. Is
24 it correct that you said the following: "On the day of their release, an
25 army -- high-ranking army officer, Kovacevic or Bozevic, I don't know the
1 first name, ordered the guard to bring out those three."
2 A. Yes. Presumably it must have come down the chain of command. It
3 couldn't have been done directly. That is what the persons said.
4 Q. Thank you. Excuse me, when you say that is what that person said,
5 you mean whom? Cengices?
6 A. Yes, yes, Cengices.
7 Q. On that same page in that same statement, you said the following:
8 "The KP Dom guards could not and did not prevent the soldiers from
9 entering the KP Dom. We lived in fear and suspense. Before I was brought
10 to the KP Dom, there was a group of Serb guards who played the part of
11 guards awaiting for reassignment."
12 What did you mean by that?
13 A. For two or three days while I was there, there were a few
14 soldiers, members of the Serb forces from Serbia. And according to what
15 the detainees who had arrived there before me, they said that in the camp
16 there were a number of soldiers from Serbia who were accommodated there
17 and performed, because at that time before the camp was organised by
18 former members of the KP Dom who worked there.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Lojo.
20 Your Honours, perhaps this is a convenient time.
21 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 2.30.
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Lojo, before the break, we talked about the guards at the KP
5 Dom. Today, during the examination-in-chief, you said that the guards,
6 those who worked in the KP Dom previously, wore blue uniforms that were
7 worn at the KP Dom before the outbreak of the war conflict as well. Other
8 guards who had not worked in the KP Dom before that, did they wear
9 uniforms too?
10 A. Yes. They wore military uniforms but sometimes the other ones who
11 wore blue uniforms also wore camouflage uniforms, but that was more
13 Q. You said to us just now that those who worked in the KP Dom
14 earlier on, who wore blue uniforms, sometimes wore camouflage uniforms as
15 well. What about the guards who worked at the KP Dom? Did they take
16 breaks, and during those breaks, did they go to the front lines?
17 A. Yes. As far as I know, there were some who went.
18 Q. Thank you, sir. During the examination-in-chief and also in
19 response to my question, you spoke about the pressure exerted upon Muslims
20 to leave Foca, and yesterday you also mentioned some other towns in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Today I asked you about your statement in which you
22 said that the SDA had given an instruction to leave Foca, that Muslims
23 were supposed to leave Foca. Do you know the name Hasan Cengic?
24 A. I know the name Hasan Cengic. Except I have to correct you. It
25 was not an instruction; it was a sort of call. There was nothing in
2 Q. So there was a call that was addressed orally to the Muslims,
4 A. When there was an attack at Donje Polje.
5 Q. You said that you know the name Hasan Cengic. Who is this?
6 A. That was the secretary of the SDA of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 Q. Now, I would like to read a document to you, to show you a
8 document, rather.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I did this at
10 a late stage. Before we resumed, I gave copies to the interpreters so
11 that they could follow this more easily but I'm going to read it
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note they do not have copies.
14 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreters say that they do not have the
15 copies. Who did you give it to for the interpreters?
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave it to the
17 registrar, but late, late, lest there be any misunderstanding. I think
18 that the mistake is mine. I gave it to her just before we resumed.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait a moment so that it can be sent into the
21 Right. You proceed now, Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. This is a document that was made --
24 JUDGE HUNT: You go ahead.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I proceed? Thank you, Your
2 Q. This is a document that was written on letterhead of the Party of
3 Democratic Action. It was addressed to the SDA Trebinje, and it is
4 entitled, "Instruction concerning moving out of Trebinje."
5 "Since the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina is becoming
6 increasingly complex from the point of view of security, especially after
7 the Geneva documents were accepted by Karadzic and his clique at Pale, it
8 is necessary, with a view to the implementation of the aspirations of all
9 Muslims, the preservation and strengthening of our state, Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina, to urgently take the following measures in the area of the
11 Trebinje municipality.
12 "Number 1: Through our activists, all Muslims should be
13 encouraged to leave Trebinje and go to Montenegro, especially prominent
14 and well-to-do citizens.
15 "Property moveable and immovable should be sold in part, and if
16 possible, it should be left in the care of Serbs that enjoy confidence and
17 that Muslim friends know from beforehand who are opponents of Karadzic's
18 renegade policies.
19 "Number 3, not to hesitate to exert pressure and even force
20 against those Muslims who do not act in accordance with this order. Upon
21 arriving in Montenegro, linkup with the SDA, Merhamet and our people in
22 the Liberal Federation of Montenegro where you will receive all
23 instructions in terms of further action. Every religious facility of ours
24 in Montenegro shall render assistance to you, and our brothers in Tuzi,
25 Podgorica, Plav, and Rozaje, and throughout Montenegro await you.
1 "Number 5, all of your property will be compensated for when we
2 attain our objective, and we will know how to appreciate your sacrifice,
3 and this is what the Muslims of the world expect of you. With respect,
4 Salem Olejkum [phoen], the secretary of the SDA, Hasan Cengic".
5 The instruction that we discussed, the one that was given to
6 Muslims in Foca, was it given in this respect, in this sense, like what I
7 just read out to you?
8 A. Not in this sense. I don't think that this one is authentic
9 either because its date is controversial. As far as I know, Trebinje was
10 abandoned in June and July 1992, so I find this instruction quite
12 Q. Did a certain number of Muslims from Foca go to Montenegro?
13 A. Yes, because that was the only way one could leave Foca. Either
14 when people were leaving individually in April and May, or later when it
15 was organised by the Serb authorities, as my wife and children left later.
16 Q. You can see a signature here and a stamp, a seal of the SDA.
17 A. I don't want to make any comments. I was just wondering about the
18 date, the 20th of January, 1993. It seems quite pointless, really.
19 Q. Is it your assertion that -- is it your assertion that on the 21st
20 of January, 1993, there were no Muslims in Trebinje?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that what your assertion is?
23 A. Yes, with the exception of individuals, perhaps.
24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Lojo, I shall continue my questions.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you do, the booth up there had better try
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 to do something about the speakers, which are crackling quite loudly all
2 the time. Thank you.
3 You proceed, thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. However I --
5 oh, yes, now I can -- now I do have the right kind of sound in my
7 Q. Today you talked about persons who went to work, and in your
8 statement you said that the persons who were in charge of the KP Dom asked
9 for volunteers to go out to work, and they were privileged in some way and
10 you explained that.
11 You said that also a workroom was composed in this way, that is to
12 say, of such persons. Which room was that?
13 A. That was Room 16, after the 31st of October, 1992.
14 Q. Before the 31st of October, 1992, was there some kind of a working
16 A. Well, perhaps Room 19, as far as I can remember, but then my
17 memory fails me a bit now.
18 Q. You said that this room, number 16, after October 1992 -- or from
19 October 1992 onwards was the workroom. Was it the workroom until the last
20 day of your stay at the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct that in the statement you gave to
23 the Office of the Prosecutor, you said on page 7 that after the Red Cross
24 entered the KP Dom in June 1993, the food became better and there was more
25 freedom of movement?
1 A. Yes, I said that, having heard about it from the people I saw
2 later when they got out as well, in 1994, 1995, 1996.
3 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to ask, how come you knew about
4 that. Tell me another thing: Did the Red Cross enter the KP Dom before
5 that? Do you know about that?
6 A. As far as -- for as long as I was there, no, not while I was
7 there. However, before I was brought in, other inmates say that the Red
8 Cross did enter briefly, or rather, a lady who we could identify as the
9 person who transferred two or three wounded persons from the hospital to
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Lojo, when you told the investigators of the OTP
12 about your release, is it true that you said the following? There's no
13 need for me to read to you what you confirmed as something that you know.
14 "Filipovic, whose name I do not know, a soldier who was a member of some
15 kind of special unit, awaited me outside. I did not notice that on that
16 occasion some other person who was in charge of the KP Dom was present or
17 participated in my release."
18 Is it correct that you stated that?
19 A. It is true that I stated that, that there was no one there except
20 for the cook and the guard in front of the gate.
21 Q. You said that no one else out of the persons in charge of the KP
22 Dom was present or took part in your release?
23 A. Took part? I mean specifically that day, that's probably what I
24 had in mind. I don't even know who did take part.
25 Q. So you don't know who took part.
1 Today you said that it was those who were running the KP Dom in
2 Foca who were also supposed to get their share of the money received. On
3 which basis are you saying that?
4 A. On the basis of what Mr. Filipovic said who escorted me. He said
5 that in the organisation of the command in Foca, and now I'm adding the
6 following, that somebody had to issue orders to the people at the KP Dom
7 as well.
8 Q. So Filipovic said to you only that you were released through the
9 organisation of the command in Foca, and the rest is your assumption; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. Thank you. You said that as far as the abuse of Mandzo and Dzanko
13 was concerned, that they were beaten by a certain Ivanovic, their
14 neighbour, who was not a guard at the KP Dom. Do you know the name of
15 Risto Ivanovic, a guard at the KP Dom?
16 A. Yes, I know that name.
17 Q. How did he treat persons of Muslim ethnicity?
18 A. As far as Mr. Risto Ivanovic is concerned, I stated, as probably
19 the others did as well, that he was very decent, that he was a man who was
20 prepared to help and -- although his brother was killed, that is to say a
21 member of his family.
22 Q. So that is not the Ivanovic?
23 A. No. That's not the one.
24 Q. You said that he was not a guard and that he beat these persons
25 with a rifle butt. Was he a soldier?
1 A. I don't know what he was because this was outside the compound.
2 However, the fact is that he did this in the KP Dom in cooperation with
3 the guards who came in and who took these persons out. Why it was that
4 way, we really do not know.
5 Q. In relation to this incident, you also said that, opposed to other
6 incidents that occurred during the night - if I remember correctly, you
7 said between 1700 and 2100 hours - this happened in the morning?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was this a working day or it was a Saturday or a Sunday?
10 A. It was a Saturday, but I don't know whether it was a workday or
11 not. I don't know about the organisation of work at the camp.
12 Q. Thank you. While you stayed at the camp, did you have the
13 possibility of following press, radio? Did you obtain any kind of
15 A. None of this was made possible to us, nor did we know what was
16 happening. Only I, from time to time, while I had a transistor which had
17 been taken in surreptitiously before that, we listened to it until, say,
18 August, 1992, until the guards took it away from me and we were deprived
19 of all the rest.
20 Q. Is it via that radio that you heard about the London conference?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you talked about Radojica
23 Tesovic, the previous warden. Do you know that for some time in the month
24 of April, that person was absent from Foca? Are you aware of that?
25 A. Are you referring to 1992?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. As far as I know, according to information received from persons
3 who were with Mr. Tesovic, just when the fighting started, that is to say
4 shooting in Foca, on the 8th and 9th, Mr. Tesovic and Milutin Tijanic
5 organised the transfer of the then prisoners via Velecevo, the female
6 prison, towards Montenegro. Part of them allegedly left the camp and they
7 were seen at Velecevo, and they spent the entire month there at Velecevo.
8 Selimovic Ekrem and Selimovic Sead talked to them. This was in mid-April;
9 I mean the 8th, 9th, 10th.
10 Q. After that, did they stay in Montenegro and Serbia? Do you know
11 about that?
12 A. I don't know anything else about their movement.
13 Q. Mr. Lojo, today you talked about the Territorial Defence and the
14 reserve forces, military reserve forces. Were you there?
15 A. After I did my service in the JNA, I was not on the reserve
16 force. For a brief period of time, I was on the reserve force of the
17 state security, and since later I became the holder of a high office, that
18 is to say I was party secretary and then director of the mine, et cetera,
19 so I was not part of the active force, either of the JNA or of the
20 Territorial Defence, but I held the office in accordance to which office I
22 Q. What about the other citizens of Foca?
23 JUDGE HUNT: You have been doing this most of the time. You've
24 got to give that pause.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I can't hear an
2 JUDGE HUNT: I was speaking to Mr. Bakrac. He keeps on asking his
3 question whilst we are still getting the translation of the answer. So
4 please, Mr. Bakrac, just pause. Have you not got the translation running
5 in your ears?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I hear you and I
7 try to hear what you're saying in English. I understood what you said.
8 However, there seemed to be interruptions in my headphones, also in the
9 witness's headphones, judging by what he's just said. It comes and goes
10 intermittently, the interpretation we are supposed to receive. Your
11 Honour, perhaps that is the reason why, when there is this interruption, I
12 think that the interpretation is over and then I speed things up.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we will see what can be done about the channel
14 that you're listening on, but you usually go straight in when he was
15 finished speaking, and you must know that the translation is still going.
16 It is making it very difficult for the interpreters. So please slow down.
17 MR. BAKRAC: Yes. I'll try to use the transcription.
18 A. I just have to intervene. I have not received a word of
19 interpretation concerning everything that's been said, and I think it has
20 something to do with me.
21 Q. Mr. Lojo, since we are speaking the same language, I'll try to
22 explain it to you. It was my mistake, Mr. Lojo. We speak the same
23 language, so it is necessary for us to pause between our questions and
24 answers because there needs to be interpretation of everything that we are
25 saying. So that's the problem.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Just check the channels.
2 MR. BAKRAC: I am on channel 6, but I haven't translation.
3 JUDGE HUNT: We will see what we can do, whether there is some
4 fault with channel 6, because both sides seem to be complaining about it.
5 If you're worried about channel 6, I am listening on channel 6 and I can't
6 hear anything either.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Can the interpreters speak something?
8 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's more important that we have somebody
9 from the translation booth giving us something on channel 6, and then we
10 will see whether we can hear it.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, one, two, three. Can you hear the English
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, English booth is fine.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I think help is on the way.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, the technician is on his way to
16 the B/C/S booth.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I've just picked up something on channel 6.
18 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. Can you hear us now?
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's see how we go, Mr. Bakrac.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation].
21 Q. Mr. Lojo, did other people from Foca, regardless of their ethnic
22 origin, were they members of the reserve force of the Territorial Defence,
23 regardless of whether they had served in the JNA or not?
24 A. I suppose according to the combat orders, they were either in the
25 JNA reserve force or with the Territorial Defence.
1 Q. And did the same rule apply to them, up to what age they had, they
2 were under this obligation?
3 A. It applied to all of the citizens, to all the citizens, all the
4 nationals, of the former Yugoslavia, that is Bosnia.
5 Q. Do you know, how frequently were military drills held?
6 A. It depended on the programme. It was once or twice a year
8 Q. And before the war conflict broke out, when was the last military
9 drill, do you know? In the area of Foca, of course.
10 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I was more conversant with it
11 while I was the mayor of the municipality or, rather, the secretary of the
12 committee, because ex officio I had then, of course, to keep abreast of
13 such things. When I became the manager of the mine, I didn't know any
14 more about this.
15 Q. But do you remember some drill after 1986?
16 A. Well, I suppose there was. There must have been also in 1987 and
17 1988 and 1989.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. Did you, in your notes, mention the
19 victimisation of Serbs in a place called Josanica?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Now, what happened and when did it happen; could you tell us?
22 A. At that time we did not know, but when it came out I learnt about
23 it. However, we supposed that it was on Saint Nikolas's day, that is, on
24 the 19th of December.
25 Q. Yes, but what year?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. 1992. Because in terms of shelling from rocket mortars ensued
2 from the town towards -- in the direction of Gorazde, and there were
3 alarms and we could hear things around the town, that something was
5 Q. And did you then learn what happened?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Could you tell us?
8 A. According to what I learned, from the direction of Gorazde a unit,
9 a military formation, I don't know how many and who, made an inroad, an
10 incursion in the village of Josanica which is below the hospital, and on
11 that occasion they killed quite a number, that is, over 70 men, women,
12 children, and civilians -- that is, all civilians.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Lojo. My learned friend went with you through the
14 list that you had compiled. At that time when you were doing that, did
15 you at the same time communicate with the Red Cross and look at the
16 information they had in their computer?
17 A. I compiled this list before the Red Cross. You can see my
18 handwriting. And there are some names missing from it because I simply
19 could not remember them at the time. And then after I communicated with
20 the Red Cross, I saw some other names -- I mean, I knew people, but I
21 didn't know that those were their names, and I saw them in the -- at the
22 International Red Cross in the Zagreb office computer.
23 Q. And after this, you made the second list which you wrote in
24 capital letters?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When was it that you made this other list in capital letters?
2 A. 1993.
3 Q. Thank you. My learned friend went through it date by date and
4 your information; however, the Defence is unclear, and I should like to
5 invite you to clarify it.
6 With regard to the exchange on the 29th of August, 1992, you also
7 indicated that it was Saturday, in the afternoon hours, and there was a
8 group of 71 prisoners. I was writing down very carefully where you had
9 your contacts, but you gave three names for this group. Hasan Dzano, did
10 you communicate with one of his relatives, with a member of his family?
11 A. You mean after I came out. His wife, as far as I know, committed
12 suicide. I don't know about other members of his family.
13 Q. Did you communicate with some members of Emir Mandzo's family?
14 A. Yes, with his wife who was in Skopje because my wife's parents
15 were also there.
16 Q. And when was it that you communicated with her?
17 A. In 1993.
18 Q. And Sanin Kulelija from Visegrad, did you communicate with a
19 member of family?
20 A. No, from his family, no.
21 Q. These are only three names out of 71, and you say -- stated, and
22 said it again today, that the others never called anyone. Could you give
23 us the names of those 71, and with whose families did you talk to?
24 A. No. Of these 71, it was very intensive from all rooms. I suppose
25 with some family or other, but I never tried again to reconstruct the name
1 of those people because I assumed that other witnesses also knew some of
2 them. I didn't go out to try to research on all 400 men.
3 Q. In other words, you can reconstruct only these three persons from
4 the list?
5 A. Yes, at the moment.
6 Q. And do you explain to us how you communicated with them and why.
7 Also in the view of the Defence, the exchange of September 10,
8 1992, also raises some questions. You tell us that 41 prisoners were
9 taken away on that occasion, but here you gave only six names. Fadil
10 Divjan, did you communicate with any members of his family?
11 A. I think I did in Germany where there was somebody of his next of
12 kin when I was there in 1993 in Munich, a place near Munich.
13 Q. So you think but you're not sure about that April 1993?
14 A. True, because the fact is that none of them ever called to let
15 anybody know they were alive. I think I would be very happy to learn that
16 one -- some of them are still among the living, but so far none of them
17 have communicated with anyone.
18 Q. Mr. Lojo, I fully agree with you, but our task here is to
19 establish certain facts and evidence, and my question specifically was,
20 are you sure that you communicated with somebody, some member of his
21 family, or aren't you?
22 A. I cannot give you a precise answer because I'm not sure.
23 Q. Edhem Kafedzic.
24 A. I could have, same thing.
25 Q. Meho Hadzimesic?
1 A. Same again, because they all come from Slatina, and I therefore
2 did not know their next of kin. They did not come from Foca, from the
3 town itself.
4 Q. Semso Cankusic?
5 A. Same group.
6 Q. And the same then holds true of Reko and Rahman, is it; same
7 thing, same case?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. So the only questionable thing is the exchange on the
10 12th of September, 1992, when you said that there was a group of 50
11 prisoners, yet you mention only four names. So my question is the same as
12 in the previous case: Who did you communicate with and did you? Fehim
13 Isanovic, did you speak to anyone, to any member of his family?
14 A. Is that group of those who killed or not? I didn't have a look.
15 Q. I don't think it depends on it. You should know whether you
16 communicated with somebody from Fehim Isanovic's family. Why do you need
17 to look which group they belong to?
18 A. No, except Mezbur.
19 Q. In other words, only with Mezbur's family; and with Sefko Hodzic's
20 family and Hidajet Srna's family you did not communicate?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the witness's
23 JUDGE HUNT: Can we have the witness's answer repeated, please?
24 The interpreters didn't hear it.
25 The question was you only checked with Mezbur's family, and with
1 Hodzic's family and Hidajet Srna's family you did not communicate with.
2 Do you remember what answer you gave to that, sir?
3 A. I do, yes. I said it was the same thing as before. The only
4 family I communicated with was Mezbur's family.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And you did not communicate with these other families?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. Thank you. In your list, sir, you list 17 names, and you say they
9 were taken out in the afternoon and did not come back; and I want to ask
10 you to tell us to the best of your recollection, what rooms were they
11 taken from?
12 Munib Veiz, what room was he taken from and when? No, excuse me,
13 you did say 15th to the 30th, you could not say the date. But what room
14 was he taken away from?
15 A. Well, I'm not sure I can now get the exact numbers of those rooms,
16 because it was only a short time after we were brought to the camp, within
17 the 20 days. But they were taken out from rooms, by and large, number 13,
18 15, and 14, as far as I can remember, by and large.
19 Q. Room 14 was -- had the same entrance as you, you shared the
20 entrance, didn't you, into the building with Room 14?
21 A. No, it shouldn't be. Sixteen is the first number.
22 Q. And Kruno Marinovic, what room was he taken from?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Mato Ivancic, what room was he taken from?
25 A. I don't know. I mean, this is too -- it was too early for me to
1 know these things. All I know is that I saw them at the gate.
2 Q. But did you mention that he was taken from Room 21?
3 A. No. In Room 21 when I arrived, I found his passport there. I
4 don't know that he himself was there.
5 Q. So in Room 21 you found his documents?
6 A. Yes, yes. But how they got there, I don't know.
7 Q. Enes Uzunovic?
8 A. I think it was Room 13 or maybe 15, I'm not quite sure.
9 Q. Mirko Niksic?
10 A. Likewise.
11 Q. Halim Konjo?
12 A. Again, Room 13, perhaps Room 15, that is ground floor or the room
13 above it.
14 Q. Selimovic called Spona?
15 A. I'm not sure about the room.
16 Q. Zulfo Veiz?
17 A. Again, none of them were in my room.
18 Q. Was Zulfo Veiz in a room which shared your entrance?
19 A. I'm not really able to tell you.
20 Q. Fuad Mandzo?
21 A. Yes, same entrance. Whether Room 18 or perhaps one above, I don't
23 Q. So in your entrance, that is in the right wing of the prisoners'
24 quarters as you face them, is it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Ramo Dzendusic?
2 A. He went out of my room, I told you that definitely, Room 16.
3 Q. Nail Hodzic?
4 A. I think he was also in Room 13 or 15, but I cannot really vouch
5 for that.
6 Q. Bico, the owner of the restaurant?
7 A. Could be the same thing. I don't know what room he was in.
8 Q. Mustafa Kuloglija?
9 A. He came from the left wing, so either 13 or 15.
10 Q. Engineer Granov?
11 A. Left wing again, 13 or 15.
12 Q. Atko Isanovic?
13 A. Again, that left wing. The majority were from that part because
14 they had been brought earlier.
15 Q. Altoka?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Esad Kiselica?
18 A. I believe he was in Room 15.
19 Q. Do you know which room Kemal Dzelilovic was in?
20 A. I can't remember the room, but it is more than likely that it was
21 the left wing.
22 Q. Seval Soro?
23 A. I don't know which room exactly.
24 Q. But would you know whether he was in the left or the right wing?
25 A. I wouldn't know that either.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you,
2 Witness. We do not have any further questions.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to clarify
5 one matter.
6 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
7 Q. Mr. Lojo, you have discussed the exchange or the release of the
8 three Cengices, and just to clarify, who took them out from your room?
9 Was it a regular guard, or was it someone else?
10 A. It was a regular guard who came to get them out, the man who was
11 on duty that day in the compound, I mean at our entrance.
12 Q. Do you recall who, who that was, which guard?
13 A. Well, hardly, but he took us to the, to the door, that is, that
14 metal gate, and then he turned them over to the next one.
15 Q. Could you see to whom they were turned over? Could you see if it
16 was another guard or someone else?
17 A. Another guard. As you open the metal gate, then you have another
18 guard, except that from our room, 21 that is, I could not see the gate,
19 the metal one.
20 Q. Do you know who actually ordered the guard who came to your room
21 to take the Cengices out? Would you know that?
22 A. No. I could not know that. In principle, guards would either
23 bring along a list, typed out if it was a larger group, or they would have
24 a piece of paper with some names on it.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, no further questions, Your Honour.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now
2 free to leave.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 MS. KUO: Your Honours, regarding the protective measures for the
5 next witness, there is a matter that the Prosecution needs to discuss.
6 JUDGE HUNT: That's FWS-35?
7 MS. KUO: It's 58, actually.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
9 MS. KUO: Due to an oversight on behalf of the Office of the
10 Prosecutor, we did not request protective measures for this witness.
11 However, during our proofing session, it became clear that he had
12 originally asked for protective measures, and, therefore, we are making an
13 oral motion now to ask for them. This was not through any change of mind
14 on behalf of the witness but --
15 JUDGE HUNT: Just the sheer negligence of the OTP?
16 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: What are the protective measures he seeks?
18 MS. KUO: He wishes to have a pseudonym, face distortion and voice
19 distortion. I explained to him the concerns of the Trial Chamber
20 regarding voice distortion and he explained to me that the place where he
21 lives now, he is in very close quarters with other refugees, and in
22 particular with Serb refugees, and because this proceeding is being
23 followed very closely by the refugee community there, he is very concerned
24 about being recognised by people with whom he is presently in contact.
25 JUDGE HUNT: I see. Well, Mr. Bakrac, apart from your usual
1 objection, have you got anything in particular about this one?
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not think there is
3 any purpose in repeating, as you say, my usual objections.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Well --
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] But I do have to add something.
6 Since the OTP said it was their mistake, their error, the Defence
7 understands that and we have no objection.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Well, then, we will make the
9 orders sought for protective measures and the blinds can be brought in so
10 the witness can be brought -- this is a voice distortion, too?
11 MS. KUO: Yes. We have notified the audio-visual unit and they
12 have the microphone set up. They just need a minute or two.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Does this change of order mean that we are
14 not going to hear FWS-35?
15 MS. KUO: No, he is here also. It wasn't a change of order; that
16 has nothing to do with anything the court needs to be concerned with.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
18 MS. KUO: I would also like to get a Prosecution exhibit number
19 for the confidential name sheet that has been distributed.
20 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P424 and it will be under seal.
21 After all of that, we can now have the witness. Thank you,
22 usher. Have we any evidence in this case as to what happened to Pero Elez
23 or am I only relying on something I heard in the previous case?
24 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. We had put in a series of newspaper
25 articles that described his death.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Would you stand up, please, sir? And would you make
4 the solemn declaration in that document that's handed to you.
5 WITNESS: FWS-58
6 [Witness answered through interpreter].
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir. Move your chair up as close
10 as you can to the table and speak directly into that microphone. Please
11 do not answer any question until it has completely finished because if our
12 microphones are left on, then you are not given the protection of voice
14 Ms. Kuo?
15 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I just want to confirm with the audiovisual
16 booth that the voice distortion is in place. Thank you.
17 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
18 Q. Witness, good afternoon.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. Let me explain to you that the court has granted your request for
21 protective measures, which means that you will have a pseudonym, there
22 will be a facial distortion of your video image, and there is also voice
23 distortion of your voice. Do you understand that?
24 A. I understand that.
25 Q. You have before you Exhibit P424 which has FWS-58 indicated on
1 it. Do you see it?
2 A. I understand your question.
3 Q. Do you see -- underneath that, do you see your name?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Underneath your name, is that your birth date?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Witness, in 1992, what town or village did you live in?
8 A. I lived in the village that I was born in, and that's the village
9 of Crnetici.
10 Q. Witness, you can put the piece of paper away. It's no longer
11 necessary for you to read it.
12 A. Put it away.
13 Q. With whom did you live?
14 A. I lived with my wife.
15 Q. Were you working at that time?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you retired?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What ethnicity are you?
20 A. Muslim.
21 Q. The village that you lived in, was it predominantly Muslim, Serb
22 or mixed?
23 A. Mixed.
24 Q. When the war started in Foca, on the 8th of April, 1992, could you
25 hear it in your village?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What were you able to hear?
3 A. We could hear from afar, and it is 11 and a half kilometres from
4 town to my village.
5 Q. What kinds of things could you hear in your village?
6 A. We heard shooting from small arms, from mortars, I think.
7 Q. Did any residents leave your village?
8 A. Not then.
9 Q. Did they leave after that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were they Muslim or Serb villagers?
12 A. Muslim, except for one family that had two little girls. They
13 lived on the very outskirts of the village and they went somewhere.
14 Q. Do you know why the Muslim residents of your village left?
15 A. Well, people know the conflict broke out in Foca itself. This was
16 a prepared aggression. They started shooting a year before that, around
17 all villages, all localities in the municipality.
18 Q. Were the Muslims specifically targeted in your village?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know in what way?
21 A. Let me just add something. Not in my village but throughout my
22 municipality and throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, the method was the same,
23 the same method of attack and intimidation.
24 Q. Could you explain to us why the Muslims felt intimidated and not
25 the Serbs?
1 A. Well, I'll tell you why. I'll try to speak slowly. While I
2 worked -- actually I retired in 1991, and it was already then that Serbs
3 started organising themselves and provoking conflicts within the
4 authorities. They did not agree to any sharing of power or establishment
5 of power which was characteristic of all municipalities.
6 Q. Witness, in 1992, were there specific threats made to Muslims that
7 caused them to leave your village and other villages?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you hear them or do you know what they were?
10 A. Well, simply at all crossroads, intersections in villages, in
11 towns, everywhere, there were checkpoints and not a bird could fly by
12 without being stopped or seen or caught.
13 Q. Did you leave your village or did you stay?
14 A. Well, I'll try to explain this to you, the order. On the 8th of
15 April, as far as I can remember, and I still can remember, in town itself,
16 these clashes started. There was some group of, I don't know, 30 or 40
17 men, and they had had weapons. This was in the so-called area of Donje
18 Polje. On the 8th of April, they started shelling Foca, the town itself.
19 There was gunfire, mortar fire, and that's where they clashed. There was
20 shooting. I was in my village so this is far away but you can still hear
21 it, though it is muffled.
22 They held Donje Polje and also the barracks of the KP Dom, or
23 rather the building of the KP Dom. This was six or seven days, I don't
24 know exactly for how long. Since there was such a lot of organisation and
25 such a lot of supremacy on the part of the local Serbs, and then also
1 there were paramilitaries from Serbia and also from Montenegro, they
2 withdrew across the bridge which is near the KP Dom on the left bank of
3 the Drina, and on the right bank of the Drina, they took buses to
4 Gorazde. Then --
5 Q. Witness?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Could we focus, please, on the time after the war and the shooting
8 had started in Foca. And you explained that certain villagers left. I'd
9 like to know whether you also left your village.
10 A. The chronology as to how all of this happened is coming in a
11 minute. We were hiding like mice in houses, in forests, and this went on
12 until the 27th of April. I remember that very well. Then, on that day,
13 the Serbs proved that our village would be shelled. We thought that they
14 were just trying to scare us and that they wouldn't do it. And in the
15 early evening hours, say between 4.00 and 5.00 in the afternoon, they
16 indeed started shelling and they allegedly told us to hide in basements.
17 It's a mixed village so they did not hit any houses. They actually
18 targeted the forests above the village. I did not measure time so it went
19 on for an hour or two. I don't know, but it was in the early evening and
20 we hid behind the house by a little stream. Night fell and I remember
21 very well that my wife then came from Gorazde. Across the hill, there is
22 this village of Sorlaci and we were near the road that goes by that
23 stream, which actually wasn't up there. So we heard the shells flying
24 over. You know, you can hear this whistle, like shell -- you can't hear a
25 shell when it's falling but you can hear it when it's flying above your
1 head. And also we saw them fall, and we saw and heard the explosion and
2 the smoke. When all of this stopped -- I forgot to tell you something
4 My wife came and this other woman also came, and we called out to
5 them, and said that they should come down, and that's where we spent the
6 night. And then later on, I don't know whether this was an hour or two,
7 then this -- the Serb soldiers, some people call them the Chetniks --
8 well, they are some kind of soldiers one way or the other. And a
9 neighbour of mine, (redacted), who used to come to my house even, he
10 was in front of them, and they were going by, strictly in military order.
11 We saw them approaching the house, and then one would get to a shelter and
12 the other one would proceed and then this other one would reach the first
13 one and that's how they went. And then they came to Zijad Cisija's
14 house. His mother was old and she had to walk with a walking stick, and
15 she couldn't stand straight. They searched the entire village.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Ms. Kuo, I know you've tried your
17 best. I'm rather tempted to say that there is very little dispute, if
18 any, that there were attacks upon the Muslim civilian population. There
19 is an attempt to show that there was also attacks upon the Serb population
20 with which we're not really concerned.
21 May I suggest that you just lead him directly to the particular
22 incident you want him to add to the extensive evidence we've already got
23 on that, and that might save all of this detail.
24 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, I will try to direct this witness.
25 Q. Did you -- please, Witness, listen to the question and answer just
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 the question, okay?
2 A. I'm listening, I'm listening.
3 Q. Did you see villages burning during this time, and if you did,
4 could you tell us just the names of the villages?
5 A. I did not see it. There is this one village that you cannot see,
6 but you could see thick smoke. It's three kilometres away through the
7 forest, across the hill, but you could see this thick smoke.
8 Q. What was the name of that village?
9 A. Gudelj was the name of the village, and next to it is Ribari, and
10 also Karacic.
11 Q. Were those Muslim or Serb villages?
12 A. Gudelj is a mixed village, Serb and Muslim; Ribari is purely
13 Muslim, and also Karacic.
14 Q. Do you know whether the houses in your village were all searched,
15 or were only Muslim houses searched?
16 A. Only Muslim houses.
17 Q. Did any Serb soldiers ever threaten you?
18 A. They were intimidating us. They were cursing at us when they were
19 searching us. No, they were not searching us then. We were by the stream
20 that day. But they did the next day, the next time. We'll come to that.
21 Q. Were you able to leave without -- did you need permission to
23 A. We could try, because we were being told, we were being warned,
24 that there was no place for us there, that we had to leave. But it was
25 not possible to leave without a permission or without somebody's
1 protection. From the municipality, that is.
2 Q. Witness, from whom would you need to get permission to leave, what
4 A. We needed permission from the Crisis Staff in the municipality.
5 That's where this was being settled.
6 Q. Were you yourself able at first to go to the Crisis Staff to get
7 permission to leave?
8 A. [No translation].
9 Q. Did you send someone on your behalf to go?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was that person of Muslim or Serb ethnicity?
12 A. Serb.
13 Q. When that person returned, did he tell you, was he able to get
14 permission for you to leave?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you need to go to the Crisis Staff yourself?
17 A. No. Nobody made any offers to me, either.
18 Q. How did you get your permit to leave? Did the Serb bring you the
20 A. This is the way it was: This neighbour of mine -- can I tell you
21 in detail why we asked him to give it to us? Can I tell you about that?
22 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, I know that you are very anxious to tell
23 us all of this, but we do have to limit ourselves to the matters which are
24 in issue in this case. Just answer the questions that are being asked of
25 you by the Prosecution. They are very well aware of what it is that they
1 want you to say.
2 I know you'd like to say more, but we really have to get on with
3 this trial, and we do not have the opportunity to hear the whole history
4 of this very unfortunate war.
5 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.
6 MS. KUO:
7 Q. Witness, did you yourself have to go to Foca to get permission to
9 A. It was not possible without an escort because anybody could kill
10 you wherever you went. You were less protected than an animal.
11 Q. So, sir, you did go to Foca with somebody as an escort; is that
13 A. No.
14 Q. Sir, did you go to Foca to get your exit permit? Is that the
15 reason you were in Foca town?
16 A. No. No, let me explain. My neighbour, that neighbour of mine,
17 went on our behalf. He took all of our personal documents, and when he
18 came back -- when they said that they would give it to us, he took all of
19 our personal documents, our IDs, and took them to the staff, the Crisis
20 Staff. And then he said, "You're going to get this and your documents
21 stayed back there at the police station at SUP."
22 Q. Did you go to the SUP in Foca to get your documents so you could
24 A. I did not.
25 Q. Why were you in Foca on the 8th of July?
1 A. Haven't we understood each other? I never went. Did you
2 understand what I said? That's why I had this intermediary who would
3 bring this for me.
4 Q. Sir, at one point were you taken to Foca High School?
5 A. I'll explain this to you. I have to explain this, the way it
6 was. It's no good if I shorten things. I want to tell you the truth.
7 This neighbour, when he brought this, he said, "You're going
8 tomorrow." I can give you my neighbour's name, (redacted)
9 (redacted). They took our things, and they put them in a car, a
10 Lada car. And there were three disabled persons who could not walk, and
11 they were also in the car, and the rest of us, we walked, with an escort.
12 Without an escort, it was impossible to get to the municipality because we
13 would not have -- we would not have arrived alive. Anybody could have
14 killed you then. A ten-year-old child could have killed you and not be
15 held responsible by anyone.
16 Q. Where were you taken?
17 A. We took the village path, the village road to Josanica, that's
18 four and a half kilometres. That is where the seat of the local commune
19 is. It was an asphalt road, too.
20 Q. When you arrived, did you receive your permit?
21 A. In the meantime as we were walking, these disabled persons were
22 driven to the school centre, and then this person returned to pick us up.
23 I forgot: Some of the women walked. And I came in the car and two women,
24 and also a man who was an alcoholic. We went to the SUP. And may I
25 proceed now?
1 Q. Did you receive your permit to leave when you reached the SUP?
2 A. I told you, you didn't understand what I said. We were escorted
3 by these two Serbs, and we arrived to the SUP. That is where we drove to.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, did you pick up this permit at the SUP? That's
5 the question. Now, that can be answered yes or no.
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 A. I signed for all of us.
9 JUDGE HUNT: You proceed, Ms. Kuo.
10 A. I have that permit in my pocket. I mean, it's there, it's been
11 given there.
12 MS. KUO: Thank you. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like
13 to have item ID 119 shown to the witness. This should not be placed on
14 the ELMO.
15 Q. Is that the permit that you're referring to?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we wish to have this entered into evidence
18 as Prosecution Exhibit P119 with the translation as P119A with one
19 correction. The date on the English translation is incorrect. If you
20 look at the original, it's 7th of July, not 7th of June, 1992.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibits P119 and P119A,
24 both of them will be under seal.
25 Yes, Ms. Kuo.
1 MS. KUO:
2 Q. Witness, it's no longer necessary for you to look at this exhibit.
3 Witness, while you were at the SUP, did someone -- after you
4 received your permit, what you've just looked at, were you allowed to
5 leave Foca?
6 A. Precisely on that day we were supposed to leave; however,
7 something came in our way - I don't know what it was - and then we were
8 taken to the school in Aladza.
9 Q. When you were taken to the school in Aladza, were there people
10 from the village of Trosanj there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The group that was kept at the high school in Aladza, was it men,
13 women, or children, or all of them?
14 A. This is the way it was: From Trosanj there was this one elderly
15 man, around 70 years old. The rest were women and children, and also
16 there were about seven or eight from Suljci, and also there was some
17 persons I did not know, so perhaps 55 or 56 persons. And then after that
18 they brought people in from hospitals and I don't know what all.
19 Q. Witness, how many days did you personally stay at the high school?
20 A. I stayed for seven days, I think.
21 Q. After seven days, were you taken someplace?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where were you taken?
24 A. I was taken by car. I knew that we would be going to Donje
25 Polje. I said that to my wife. She was there. And I said, "Don't be
1 sad. If they let you go, you should know where we are."
2 Q. Where were you told that you would be taken?
3 A. This is the way it was: I think this was on the seventh day.
4 There were 12 of us in the teacher's room, and the rest from Trosanj were
5 in the classroom, and we were lying there. And on the seventh day a
6 policeman came, a policeman, and there was this relative of mine who was
7 an epileptic, and he went to another room, and then he came back, and then
8 he said, "They're asking to see you."
9 I walked in there and there was an officer sitting at a table just
10 like this, and he offered me to sit down. And then he put this customary
11 question to me, the usual question, "What's your name? Introduce
12 yourself," naturally. And then the second question was, again, the usual
13 one, "Where are your sons?" I said that I had no sons. "Who have you
14 got?" (redacted)
15 Perhaps I'm going on for a long time, but I have to tell you all
16 the details. (redacted)
18 Q. Witness, please do not give us those details, especially about
19 your personal background. You've asked for protective measures, and if
20 you give us details, you will be negating the purpose for which we have
21 given you the protective measures. Do you understand?
22 A. Okay, fine.
23 Q. I also know that you're very nervous. It will go much easier if
24 you just listen to the question and answer it directly. Most of the
25 questions I ask you will require just a very simple answer.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Where were you taken from the high school? You don't need to tell
3 us how, just where.
4 A. The KP Dom, to the KP Dom.
5 Q. Who else was taken with you? How many people?
6 A. I and two more men, Rahman, Adil and Sislija, Aziz.
7 Q. Do you know whether your wife stayed at the high school, or was
8 she taken somewhere else?
9 A. No. No, this is the way it was: After talking to that officer,
10 he said to me, "The three of you will be going now, and the women and
11 children will be going in the afternoon." I didn't know where. And they
12 were taken to Partizan, to the hall.
13 Q. Witness, when you were taken to KP Dom, what room were you placed
14 in immediately?
15 A. When I came to the KP Dom, in the office at the reception there
16 was this duty officer and also these policemen and then this man who
17 brought us in. There was the usual search, and then he issued the
18 following order: "Take them to number three."
19 Q. How many people were placed in Room 3 with you?
20 A. When we came there in front of the isolation cell, a man walked
21 out, and Kulelija, Kulelija - I don't know what the name was exactly - put
22 him in two, and the three of them put in number three. There were only
23 three of us on this first day.
24 Q. The room that you were placed in, was it an isolation or solitary
1 A. Yes. It was supposed to be for one person only.
2 Q. How many people were placed in it in addition to the three of you?
3 A. They would come from time to time. The next day there were four
4 of us. This man was punished because he was looking out of the window.
5 Whatever they did that was wrong, they were sent to isolation cells, and
6 then the number went up, five, six, one night there were seven of us. And
7 then when they would serve this sentence, so to speak, and they would keep
8 them for as long as they wanted to, then they would take them back to the
9 room, so then five of us stayed behind.
10 Q. How many days were you personally kept in the solitary confinement
12 A. Seven days.
13 Q. Where were you taken? What room were you taken after those seven
15 A. Room 11.
16 Q. Until what date were you kept in Room 11?
17 A. They kept me in that room until I got out of the KP Dom.
18 Q. Could you tell us that date, please?
19 A. I know the date, I haven't forgotten it. I can say that we were
20 about to leave twice. First on the 30th of August we had set out, and
21 then something got in our way. I don't know what happened. And then they
22 moved us to the eating area number two, near where the -- near to where
23 the vehicles got in, and we were there until nightfall -- before
24 nightfall. Until five or six o'clock something like that.
25 JUDGE HUNT: We only want to know the date that you finally left
1 the KP Dom. Now, can you give us that date now, or we'll return to this
2 in the morning?
3 A. I left on the 31st of August.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Good, thank you. We propose to adjourn now, but
5 before we leave, would you please, sir, remain seated where you are until
6 the blinds can be lowered and you can be taken out of the courtroom
7 without being seen by the public.
8 We'll adjourn now, we'll resume at 9.30 in the morning.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m., to
10 be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of February,
11 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.