1 Thursday, 1
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
10 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: FWS-58 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Witness. Witness, while you were detained at KP
15 Dom, was there a group of detainees who worked?
16 A. To answer first, I forgot some notes in my hotel room, so could I
17 have them? I'm too old, and if you're my age, I can't remember it all.
18 So can we make a break? A break now or perhaps a bit later?
19 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Kuo, the best idea is to take him
20 through those particular matters. He can answer that question without
21 notes, and if he has a particular problem, then we can deal with it
22 later. Is there somebody from the Victim and Witnesses Section who can
23 obtain these notes for him while we're going on?
24 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we can look into that. I'll certainly ask
25 him specific questions.
1 Q. And Witness, if there's a particular answer you don't know without
2 your notes, you could let us know, but I think that you can probably
3 answer most of these questions without them. Shall we try?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were there a group of detainees who worked? I won't ask you their
6 names, but it's yes or no.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know what kind of work they did?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. What kind of work did they do?
11 A. They went in groups. Metal workers, welders, they worked in
12 workshop which was right next to the KP Dom. Others who were masons, they
13 went out in groups. Carpenters, house painters, and workers who loaded
14 and unloaded things, they were just manual workers.
15 But all told, I could see them when they went out to lunch, when
16 they went to the canteen, there were about 70, but the number varied.
17 Sometimes there were less of them, times there were more. I can't know
18 the exact number.
19 Q. Witness, you said you saw them going to the canteen. Do you know
20 if they got different food from those who did not work?
21 A. Yes. I had an opportunity to see at the lunch with them because
22 they had a line next to the window, those who went to have lunch there.
23 They went together. And they had large bowls, three or four times larger
24 than we had of that stew, if you can call it a stew, but it would be a sin
25 to call it a stew because the food was bad. But they had three or four
1 times more than we did, and two or three slices of bread, whereas we had
2 only one, and we had only small bowls such as salad bowls. And men who
3 worked there in the prison before, he told us that those were small salad
4 bowls, perhaps one-third of a litre, perhaps even less than that.
5 Q. Witness, did a television crew ever come to visit KP Dom?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember when that was?
8 A. I remember it. I remember well. It was the 11th of August, and
9 their team had two women and two men, if I remember well, and they spoke
11 Q. Did you see them filming?
12 A. Yes, yes, I did.
13 Q. Did you hear any conversation between any of the film crew and any
14 of the prison officials?
15 A. The conversation, I didn't. They spoke English. I couldn't
16 understand, but they talked. There were two women in the team. One of
17 them, those prisoners who were closer to the window, more aggressive, they
18 looked through the window towards them in the yard, because that is in
19 Room 11, it was on the ground floor. And one of those women, she unpacked
20 a package of cigarettes and threw it in through the -- well, they're not
21 bars, but there were some fittings on the window. And they -- she threw
22 in 15 or 20 cigarettes, and people fought over those cigarettes. And the
23 second woman - I hope I'm talking -- I'm speaking slowly enough and you
24 can understand me - and the second woman with a camera recorded those
1 At that time the guard commander, I think it was Rasevic, I saw
2 him three or four times in the prison, he said - I understood him, he
3 speaks our language - he said, "Lady, that's not how what we agreed
4 about. Stop it, and you can go."
5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I'd ask to have Exhibit P22, which is a
6 videotape, now shown. The audio-visual director has a copy of the tape,
7 but we would ask that the sound not be broadcast.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, certainly.
9 [Videotape played]
10 A. Yes. This is the KP Dom, the building.
11 Husein Lojo, a French teacher to the right. That's the one. I
12 don't know this one.
13 Q. Do you recognise this room?
14 A. This is the window. Ekrem Cemo to the -- on the left-hand side in
15 a light suit but those were prisoners' clothes, the one on the end, and
16 this is the prisoners' column as they walk into the canteen. I think
17 that's it. Oh, no, sorry, in the room. This is the working groups room.
18 Here they are having lunch. I saw them go in and the TV crew followed
19 suit and recorded what we see now, this scene. I don't know this one.
20 Q. Enough for the video tape, thank you. Witness, when you saw the
21 pictures of people eating, were you able to see the portions of food they
23 A. I saw the portions, yes. One could see those bowls because they
24 were much larger, as I have already told you.
25 Q. Were these the portions that the workers' group got or that the
1 non-workers' group, detainees, received?
2 A. The workers' group.
3 Q. Did you have a chance to look at the woman who was the reporter
4 who was standing in front of what you identified as Room 11?
5 A. Sure. I saw a woman who stood there and threw in the cigarettes
6 and the other one was behind her, and you can't see her on the film.
7 Q. The one you saw on the film, is that the one you said threw the
8 cigarettes into Room 11?
9 A. Well, it was a long time, eight years. Can't really remember, and
10 I carry a burden of many years, so whether a woman was like this or like
11 that, I don't know. There are women who look alike, but she looked like
12 this one who threw in the cigarettes, and the other one was slimmer and
13 taller, the one who was taking the shots. She was slightly taller and
14 thinner than this one.
15 Q. Witness, while were you at KP Dom, did anyone ever tell you who
16 the warden was?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who told you?
19 A. Once, since you can see the canteen and across the compound's yard
20 from my room, once, this gentleman, the warden, he was walking in front of
21 the canteen, in front of the kitchen, and it's about 40 metres away. Yes,
22 I'm sure it's that much. And so he was walking from there towards here
23 and those prisoners who had arrived before me, they said that, "That's
24 him, that's our warden, the prison warden." I saw him. I couldn't
25 recognise him because I didn't know him from before.
1 Q. What was the warden wearing when you saw him?
2 A. I saw him. I saw him real well. He had an olive-grey/green
3 uniform, the SMB uniform as they call it, the summer uniform, summer
4 clothes, and he was bare-headed.
5 Q. Did the detainees tell you his name?
6 A. They did.
7 Q. What did they tell you?
8 A. They said that's the prison warden, Milorad Krnojelac. I knew
9 there was such a surname in our family, I don't know where, two or three
10 places, I don't know where the man comes from. But the surname, yes, I
11 heard it before. I knew it.
12 Q. Witness, while were you at KP Dom, were detainees ever beaten?
13 A. Personally, in my room, I could not explain it to you before.
14 People had been beaten, those in my room, but from my room at that time,
15 nobody was taken out for beating while I was there. Only on three
16 occasions I heard at night -- and I hope I'm speaking slowly and you can
17 follow me. Three times I heard at night the beating and the cries of
18 people for help. Across from my room, 11, I think on the second floor,
19 how far is it? I don't know. Could be 10, 12, perhaps more metres, not
20 too far, so that you could hear a typist typing on a typewriter, so I
21 could hear it.
22 Q. When you say you could hear a typist, you don't mean there was
23 actually a typewriter? You meant that it was that clear, right?
24 A. Once, I saw -- it was daytime, and I -- and the window was open
25 because it was hot and I saw a woman walk across the room, and I guess it
1 was a typist.
2 Q. When you heard the sounds of the beating, could you tell from Room
3 11 whether it was to the left or to the right of the entrance gate?
4 A. The rooms were adjacent, the room to the side. Well, I didn't
5 have all the devices to really measure where the sound came but it was
6 across it to the left or to the right, but that's where it is.
7 Q. After the sounds of the beating, did you hear anything else?
8 A. Yes. On three occasions, I heard it. Once -- well, it happened
9 sometimes at 10.00 until 12.00, and sometimes even later. And I heard
10 three shots once, once five, and once seven. Five or four the second time
11 but once I counted them, seven.
12 Q. So there was a total of three occasions on which you heard shots,
13 is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After you heard those shots, did you hear anything else?
16 A. Yes. At that time, lights would go out. There were no lights.
17 After that, I'd hear the sound of a vehicle. We call it TAM. It's a
18 vehicle and I know its sound, a diesel one, and it would come to the door
19 where the staff entered and the prisoners, and it would be there for about
20 15 or 20 minutes and then would go through the gate through which vehicles
21 would go into the town, I mean freight vehicles.
22 Q. What else would you hear?
23 A. I heard people being beaten and cry out, and that is horrible
24 because when you hear screams, and you hear the blows, they were dull
25 blows and we'd cover our ears so as not to hear because it was too -- we
1 would run out into the farther room away and cover our ears and start
2 talking loudly only so as not to hear.
3 Q. Could you hear what direction this freight vehicle, this truck,
5 A. That truck went through the gate, what they call it one or two, I
6 don't know, but the one which vehicles use. That is not the one that the
7 guards and prisoners used. It couldn't go through that. But it was
8 dark. All the lights were out.
9 Q. Could you hear the vehicle leave? Or first of all, from that
10 entrance, where did the vehicle go?
11 A. How can I know where it went? Because it went through the gate so
12 it's outside the compound. I don't know. Once --
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours?
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to interrupt you, the
16 witness said across the compound and this is not in the transcript, that
17 the car went across the compound.
18 JUDGE HUNT: It says because it went through the gate so it's
19 outside the compound. You say in that particular answer, he said it went
20 through the compound?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
23 Across the compound through the gate. The witness says that's the
24 same thing. And the witness said that, and it's not in the transcript.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I think you better clear it up, Ms. Kuo.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. With the assistance of the usher, I'd
2 like the witness to be shown Exhibit P6.
3 Q. Witness, on this exhibit, are you able to identify the vehicle
4 entrance that you refer to?
5 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I know this compound, and I went in by those
6 gates very often down to the hospital.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, maybe it
8 would be better if we took the ground plan 6/1. It shows better, because
9 this is a blown-up view of the KP Dom and one can't really see it here.
10 A. Right.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Except for this, except for this, Mr. Bakrac: That
12 other one, the one with the drawing of the building, does not accurately
13 show the courtyard because it has a wall going across, where clearly on
14 the photographs it does not. So this may be, I think, the better one to
15 deal with it. If there's any problem with it, then we'll try the other
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I
18 apologise, I think there's -- it is not placed properly because perhaps it
19 should be moved.
20 A. Yes, I agree. I agree with the lawyer. Will you move it so that
21 one can see the yard? I can't read this. I can't see which is the
22 administrative building. Ah, great, great. Very good.
23 Building 1, building 2. This is the entrance. This is the staff
24 entrance, here it is.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak into the microphone,
1 please. Could the witness speak into the microphone, please.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Just wait a minute, sir. Now, you've told us the
3 entrance where the staff come in, and then you pointed at building number
4 1. What did you say there?
5 A. Yes, that my finger doesn't get in the way, if you can see this.
6 This is the staff entrance right here, that's the gate. This is my room,
7 number 11. I hope you can see it. Can you hear me?
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
9 A. Right. That's where the vehicle would come, to this gate, and
10 that's it, to the right of me. Here it is. This is the bridge, a bit
11 lower, across the Drina. I hope I've explained it enough. This is the
12 road to the hospital as I'm showing it to you now. It is true. If the
13 lawyer wasn't there and doesn't know, I know it, even though many years
14 have past. I spent 35 years going down that road, that's how I earned my
15 pension, taking the road towards the hospital. I hope I'm clear.
16 MS. KUO:
17 Q. Witness, you indicated the vehicle entrance which is on this
18 exhibit to the right of the bridge.
19 A. Looking from where I am, that's it.
20 Q. Did you hear the vehicle go through the gate inside the KP Dom?
21 A. Naturally, you hear it when it comes close. When it goes in, then
22 you can't hear it, but when it is in the courtyard, then you can hear it.
23 Q. Witness, could you show us in the courtyard the path that you
24 heard the car or the truck take?
25 A. Here it would enter through the gate, naturally, and then move
1 here to the personnel -- to the staff entrance.
2 Q. What would you hear when it got to the personnel --
3 A. Where they interrogated people.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Can we have that noted that that is outside the
5 administration building, what we've been describing as the right-hand wing
6 of the administration building, but inside the yard.
7 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. What would you hear?
9 A. Now, when the vehicle arrived ...
10 Q. What would you hear when the vehicle arrived at that point?
11 A. The engine would be switched off when it arrived here. I didn't
12 have a watch and I couldn't know, but about 20 minutes, about 20 minutes.
13 It would be somewhere here. Then I could hear the engine being switched
14 on again. The lights would be out, naturally, and with lowered lights,
15 the vehicle would go out through the same gate that it entered through.
16 And I guess, my guess is, that at that time they had nothing to
17 bring in at night, especially since there were those shots, and I guess
18 that at that time they were taking the bodies out, or they simply staged
19 it in order to intimidate us. Can't be anything else.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, were you able to identify any of the
21 people who were taken out and beaten?
22 A. Not at that time. Once I saw when they took away, I think, Rasim
23 Reko. He was in another room, in another wing, not with me. I saw him
24 walk across the compound once. He was taken to interrogation, and I
25 couldn't see him as he was coming back. He was escorted by a guard, and I
1 couldn't tell whether he was beaten and how much because he was dressed,
2 and I didn't hear anything. I'm telling the truth as far as I know it.
3 Q. Did you ever see any injuries on a detainee?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was that person, and what did you see?
6 A. I personally saw with my eyes a man while I was in the isolation
7 cell. That man's name is Habib Subasic. He was in isolation cell number
8 2, and we, the people who were in the isolation cells, were taking baths
9 together. There was a common bathroom for the prisoners, so 15 people
10 would normally take a shower, take a bath together. We would come in, and
11 they would normally give us soap. I can't lie about this because they
13 And up there, as far as I know, this was one of the best prisons,
14 best KP Dom in Yugoslavia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I'm telling the
15 truth. I don't want to sin. I don't want to take any sins on myself.
16 And I saw Habib Subasic, this is a brother-in-law, his sister Zeka
17 is married to him. I knew him personally. I knew both of them. They
18 both worked in Foca. And as we were undressed, you know, normally we, the
19 men, were taking a shower, so we were undressed, and I saw that he was all
20 beaten up. His back was blue, turning into yellow, and I saw that. And I
21 was horrified because I never saw anything like that before. And I asked
22 him, "Habib, what is that?" And he said, "They beat me." I asked him,
23 "Who beat you?" He said, "I don't know." And, you know, everyone is
24 afraid of everyone else, and people would turn or mention names just to
25 make it easier for themselves. They would talk on people just to make it
1 easier on themselves, so he didn't tell me who beat him.
2 Q. Did he tell you whether he was beaten inside the KP Dom or
4 A. In KP Dom, I think.
5 MS. KUO: Your Honour, Habib Subasic is listed in Schedule B at
7 Q. Witness, did any other detainees tell you they had been beaten
8 while inside KP Dom?
9 A. Yes, several of them.
10 Q. Could you tell us their names and what they told you?
11 A. I'll remember. I have it written down, but I will remember those
12 who told me so. When I came in to Room 11, I found a lot of my
13 acquaintances there because I worked in town and the industrial zone, so I
14 got to know a lot of people through my work.
15 I found Seljanci, Halim, there, an Albanian from Kosovo. He
16 married a Bosnian woman, and he lived in a village towards -- somewhere
17 around Tjentiste, Prejedjel. And since we knew each other from before, he
18 was a construction worker, I -- he asked me, "How come you're here?" And
19 I said, "Well, you know, fate. And how come you're here?" And he asked
20 me whether I was tortured. I said, "Not so far." And he told me, "Well,
21 they beat me terribly," and apparently after that he had to lie on his
22 stomach for a week. He couldn't go to the canteen to eat, to eat there,
23 and other people, other prisoners who were with him, were putting
24 compresses on him.
25 Q. Do you know approximately when this was, when he told you?
1 A. I don't know when this took place because I came to KP Dom, I
2 believe it was the 14th or the 15th of July, and they came before me, so I
3 don't know when this had taken place. He didn't show me any bruises
4 because by that time it already healed. I think it was in July, but I
5 can't tell you exactly, so I better not talk of this further.
6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Seljanci, Halim, is listed in Schedule B
7 at 51.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
9 MS. KUO:
10 Q. Were there other detainees who told you they were beaten?
11 A. Yes, those that told me that they had been beaten.
12 Q. Do you know an Aziz Sajinovic?
13 A. Personally. An economist, he worked in a bank, in a bank where I
14 had my chequing account, and he would handle my account. I knew him
16 Q. Did he ever tell you what happened to him in the KP Dom?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did he tell you?
19 A. He was very thin. He was a big man with a proper body build. He
20 was very thin, and he was -- he had been beaten terribly. Three of his
21 ribs were broken. This is what he told me. I don't know when he was
22 taken in. Perhaps in May or something like that. But he told me that
23 they put weight on him -- I'm sorry, that he was charged, and I can tell
24 you what they charged him with. Since he was working with foreign
25 currencies, in the bank, he was charged with stealing 30.000 -- embezzling
1 30.000 German Marks. And a Serbian lady who later fled to Belgrade
2 apparently told on him and they beat him and asked that he confess about
3 this embezzlement.
4 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Aziz Sajinovic is listed in the indictment
5 in paragraph 5.29.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
7 MS. KUO:
8 Q. Witness, do you know a Mustafa Vahida and what happened to him at
9 KP Dom?
10 A. Personally know him, yes.
11 Q. Did he tell you what happened to him?
12 A. Yes. I know his father. I know his mother. I know where he was
13 born. I know that he has a wife and two sons. I know where he lived in
14 Cohodar Mahala. I know his house. Before I came there, they broke his
15 jaw and knocked his teeth out. I don't know how many. I didn't ask him
16 to show this to me.
17 Q. What was Mustafa Vahida's occupation?
18 A. As I said, he was a policeman in SUP.
19 Q. Do you know his son, Dzemal?
20 A. Well, let me tell you something. This is an error, Mustafa Vahida
21 is the father of Dzemal Vahida. So there is an error there. Mustafa is
22 the father of Dzemal Vahida. And I state this responsibly because I know
23 his father personally.
24 Q. Was it Mustafa or Dzemal that was beaten, that you described his
25 jaw was broken?
1 A. Dzemal's jaw, a policeman who used to work in SUP.
2 Q. So the person that you described having been beaten was Dzemal,
3 the police officer, Dzemal Vahida?
4 A. That's correct.
5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Dzemal Vahida is listed in Schedule C at
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 MS. KUO:
9 Q. Witness, do you know if there were any land-mines inside the KP
11 A. Yes. Well, if I can tell something not relating to KP Dom,
12 another acquaintance of mine, he was beaten prior to coming to KP Dom.
13 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, just one moment, sir. Would you please
14 answer the question that was asked of you? Do you know whether there were
15 any land-mines inside the KP Dom? That's the question. Now, you can say
16 yes or no to that.
17 A. Well, this is what I intended to say. I will tell you that now.
18 Well, that was put in sometime in July, between 10th and 15th of July.
19 This is when they put in mines because there was a rumour that escape was
20 being planned. So Rasevic, Mitar, commander of guards -- I hope you can
21 hear me well -- he came escorted by two policemen. He walked into my
22 room, number 11, and we naturally lined up, it was in the evening hours
23 before the counting time, and he warned us -- he gave us a warning, and he
24 said, "Listen, people," and this is exactly what he said, "We had heard
25 that some people are planning to escape. Don't play with your lives. We
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 put in mines." And this is not what I only heard. Everybody else heard
2 it. He said, "Don't play with your lives because the mines are put in and
3 you will get killed." Some other people said people are leaving, there is
4 a panic among people, people are leaving and not coming back, and this is
5 why people start feeling panicky.
6 And after that, in the evening, and then every night, I think two
7 or three mines exploded. They were activated right next to my room.
8 There is a wall there and a fence, because this room where I was was at
9 the end of the building. So we don't know whether a cat stepped on the
10 mine, because there were some cats around there, or they activated it on
11 purpose, just to mentally affect us. I don't know why they did it but I
12 state firmly that mines were there. They were put in there.
13 Q. Witness you stated yesterday that you were released from the KP
14 Dom on the 31th of August, 1992. Could you tell us during the month and a
15 half that you were at KP Dom, whether you lost weight, and if so, how much
17 A. Yes. I lost a bit more than 17 kilograms.
18 Q. And to this day, do you suffer from your experience at KP Dom?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you describe to us in what way?
21 A. Well, yes, I can. For example, nightmares. They keep coming
22 back. I keep dreaming about those scenes, screaming, beatings, people
23 walking, thin as skeletons, and those who were above my room. Those, are
24 the sights that I dream of. And even some names come to me, names that I
25 had forgotten, and all of a sudden, at night, in my dreams, these names
1 would come back to me and I would see these people, see their faces. And
2 also, as I'm dreaming of this, sometimes I fall off my bed. I naturally
3 sleep in a bed with my wife, and my wife, when this happens, my wife jumps
4 up and says, "Well, what's wrong with you?" And I usually say, "I don't
5 know, I don't know what's wrong with me." I fall off my bed. And I still
6 have these nightmares to this day.
7 MS. KUO: Your Honours, those are the Prosecution's questions.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination? Mr. Bakrac?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I believe
10 that I will be very brief as well but I do have a few questions for this
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
13 Q. Good morning, sir. I'm Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the counsels for
14 the accused, Milorad Krnojelac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Witness, yesterday you testified about the early days of the
17 conflict in the area where you lived. And since both of us speak the same
18 language, and I will ask you to avoid the Trial Chamber warning us, I
19 would ask you to wait for my question to be translated first and then give
20 your reply. So, please, don't give your reply too quickly, in order to
21 give the interpreters who participate in these proceedings, an opportunity
22 to translate that.
23 A. All right.
24 Q. You stated yesterday that on the 27th of April, your village was
25 attacked. Was one of the -- were some of the houses destroyed, burned or
1 destroyed in another way?
2 A. I said no, and I can confirm this once again.
3 Q. On 27th of April, did the Serb army come to your village?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were any of the Muslims from your village killed, arrested or
6 wounded on that occasion?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Is it correct that you already gave one statement to the OTP
9 investigators in 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it correct that you stated that you continued living in the
12 village, and that on 4th or 5th of July of 1992, you saw on television
13 Muslims leaving Foca and being taken to Skopje, to Macedonia, and that
14 then you decided to leave yourself?
15 A. I don't think it was on television. It was on the radio.
16 However, it is true. We did watch the television because we had
17 television; however, we didn't watch these scenes on television. We heard
18 of it on the radio.
19 Q. Well, it is irrelevant whether it was on the television or on the
20 radio but what you stated was correct, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is it also correct that a certain Veljko Lugonjic, while you were
23 staying in Foca, and by your own account, as you were waiting for the bus
24 to transport you to Skopje, that this individual asked you whether you had
25 money for a bus ticket to Macedonia?
1 A. Yes. This man was a secretary in the company where I had worked,
2 and he offered to pay for the ticket, both for me and for my wife. And
3 this took place while we were staying in Partisan.
4 Q. Is it true, sir, that you stated that on the 31th of August, which
5 was the day you were supposed to leave KP Dom on, Savo Todovic and a
6 Serbian journalist named Todorovic came to the bus, and that Todovic said
7 to the prisoners to state in front of the cameras how they were treated --
8 how they had been treated in the KP Dom?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Did any of the Muslims detainees talk to the journalists?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who, who did?
13 A. Tafro Fajik, an engineer. I was standing in the back so I didn't
14 hear what they talked about. He probably said all the best, in order to
15 save his life.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. You stated that you were taken to Room 11. Can
17 you please tell us, based on your memory, who did you find in Room 11?
18 A. I can't tell you -- but I can't tell you everything. I left in my
19 hotel room a list, you know the list that I made, but I can give you some
20 names of those people that I knew personally, and I will give you those
22 Q. Well, just the names that you can remember. You don't have to
23 consult your list.
24 A. Well, this was a large room, Room 11, and I believe the warden
25 knows about this. In fact, there were four rooms there and a living
1 section of the room was in the middle and there were two rooms on the
2 upper side and two rooms to the lower side but altogether, they comprise
3 one single room. I knew the following people. I don't know if they are
4 still alive. I don't know if where they are, if they are still alive. So
5 I knew Hasan Lojo, Celik Hamid, Serif Hodzic. Hodzic Serif. Merkes
6 Rasim, Rasim is his first name, that's correct. Rahman Adil, Soro Esed.
7 These are the people that were in my room but just the dormitory that
8 faced the backyard.
9 And there was Lipa, Emir, there as well. I already said Soro.
10 There was also Miralem Ramovic. I knew him personally, he was a driver.
11 He used to work in my company. There was Dudic, Serif, and Dudic, Aziz.
12 They were brothers, and I think they lived near Sukovci, somewhere around
13 that area.
14 I also -- Mr. Warden knows this man. There was Pasovic, Ismet,
15 who used to work in KP Dom and who was retired now. He was 60 something.
16 He slept next to me. We didn't have beds, but we had mattresses made out
17 of thick sponge. We had blankets as well. There was Cankusic, Hasan, as
18 well, and I remember that there was Soro, Suljo, as well. So these are
19 the people from my room.
20 And in the other room that was to the left, the other dormitory to
21 the left, there was Cislja, Aziz; Muharem Vehabovic, who lived in Mahala.
22 There was a man with the last name Babic. His father's name was Tahir
23 Babic, and I don't know his first name, and he was a salesman. And there
24 was a man called Mujo. I don't know his last name. He has a weird last
25 name. And let me just try and remember the others that were there. I
1 can't really remember it without a list. I know there was a man with a
2 last name Muharem. I don't know his first name. And let me just see if I
3 can remember who else was in that room.
4 In other dormitories where there were fewer beds, there was Kovac,
5 Dzafer; Dzemo, Vahida; Mandzo, Belmondo. I don't know his first name, but
6 we used to call him Belmondo; that was his nickname. I don't know his
7 first name. There was Demirovic, Sadam, a guy from Trebinje. Well, I
8 don't know if I can remember without my list, the rest of the people in
9 that room.
10 And in the room on another side there was Taib Brahman. He was a
11 salesman, worked in a store. Aziz Sahinovic was there. Hadzimusic,
12 Anadziba's [phoen] younger son from Brod. I don't know his name. I can't
13 remember. Oh, well, yes, there was Fehim Cimpo. He lived in a skyscraper
14 and had an apartment across from Dr. Asima. And I don't think I can
15 remember other names without my list. I don't think so.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you -- so these are the people that you found
17 in Room 11 when you came there. Can you remember which date it was?
18 A. Yes, I can remember. I came on the 15th. I believe it was the
19 15th. Yes, I spent seven days in Aladza prior to that, and I think it was
20 the 15th of July.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, you really must wait for a -- must pause
22 after the question before you start your answer. I know you're very
23 anxious to give your answer, but you are losing the interpreters, and if
24 they lose what you say, then what you say is not recorded in the
25 transcript. So, please, just wait, just wait a moment before you start
1 your answer.
2 And Mr. Bakrac, you are also coming in and asking the question
3 whilst the interpretation of the answer is still running, so please, would
4 you pause also.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and I
6 apologise to interpreters. I'll try not to create any further problems.
7 Q. So you stated that you came to that room on July 15th?
8 A. Yes. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I came on the 15th of July to KP Dom,
9 and then I spent seven days in isolation cells, and then I went to the
10 room. So I apologise.
11 Q. So you came to Room 11 on the 22nd of July, isn't it?
12 A. Probably. I guess so.
13 Q. So you found these people there, and they stayed in your room
14 until you left the KP Dom?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. Well, I have something I want to add. Not all of these people
18 stayed there until I left because some of them were taken away prior to
19 that, and I remember when they were taken away.
20 Q. When you discussed the food in KP Dom, did you state that you were
21 given one boiled, one boiled egg and some marmalade for breakfast?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We saw a videotape. Did you ever go into the working room?
24 A. Which working room? Which working room do you mean?
25 Q. I mean the room in which the workers' group stayed.
1 A. No, I never went there. It wasn't possible. Nobody ever went
3 Q. Then how could you recognise the room on the videotape?
4 A. I'll tell you how. Because afterwards people told me that day,
5 because that team had been announced, and they gave them fresh bed linen,
6 gave them clean sheets, and the food was better. Secondly, they never
7 allowed them to enter our room. They took them over there because they, I
8 told you, they had better food and they had two slices of bread, and I saw
9 them go in for lunch.
10 Q. But on the tape we also saw the canteen and a large number of
11 persons eating there.
12 A. Could you repeat it, please?
13 Q. On the tape we saw the canteen and a large number of people having
14 their meal there. We also saw some faces recorded on the tape on the
15 ground floor in rooms. Were they all people of the workers' group?
16 A. No, the workers' group were those faces we saw in the canteen
17 having lunch, and faces which are not shown are our faces which are
19 Q. Sir, I'd merely like to clarify something. When you spoke about
20 those sounds, the sound of beatings that you heard, you told us that it
21 usually happened between 10.00 and 12.00, but the transcript doesn't say
22 whether it was in the morning or at night.
23 A. What's missing?
24 Q. When you said that you heard the sounds of beating between 10.00
25 and 12.00, was it by day or at night?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Well, I told you in hours. I should have said between 2200 and
2 2400. That's when it happened, between 22.00 and 24.00.
3 Q. You said that on those occasions, lights were out in the
4 compound. Was that a frequent occurrence?
5 A. Well, it did happen, but not all that often, and then they would
6 switch on their diesel generator. One could hear it.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no
8 further questions.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Ms. Kuo?
10 MS. KUO: Just a clarification question, Your Honours.
11 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:
12 Q. Witness, when your village was attacked on the 27th of April, were
13 there any Muslims actually inside the village when the soldiers arrived?
14 A. Yes, there were. Some had gone, but the majority of them were
15 there. Or rather, the 12 when they came, they left that same day, that
16 is, and they left before. And we were left behind, 12 of us were left
17 behind, that is, nine women and three men at that time. That's how many
18 of us there were.
19 MS. KUO: No other questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving your evidence. You may
21 now leave, but please wait until the blinds are lowered so that you may
22 leave without being seen by members of the public.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've finished what I had to do,
24 don't have to come here any more?
25 JUDGE HUNT: That's right, sir. You may leave, and you are free
1 to leave to return to your home.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one thing, but perhaps you
3 don't need it since you are not asking me to do that. You did not ask me
4 how I left, when I started the first time with a bus on the 13th of
5 August; and you didn't ask me that I was brought back from Niksic on that
6 same day to the KP Dom when they took off 20 men and 34 were returned.
7 You didn't ask me that, but I wanted to confirm it.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Okay, sir. The parties have asked you all the
9 questions they want answers from, so you may now leave.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I hope I was
11 clear enough. May punishment strike me if I did anything wrong,
12 punishment by God or by this Court. Thank you very well
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE HUNT: Now, your next witness, Ms. Kuo.
15 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness is FWS-35, and he
16 has image alteration and a pseudonym.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. The document with the pseudonym and the
18 name of the witness headed "FWS-35" will be Exhibit P425, and it is under
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the
22 document which is being shown to you, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: FWS-35
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down please, sir. Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
5 Q. Witness, before you is Exhibit P425, and on it you should see
6 FWS-35. Below that, is that your name?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. Below your name, is that your birth date?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You should understand that your name will not be used during these
11 proceedings and you will be referred to only by that pseudonym.
12 Underneath your birth date --
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Underneath your birth date there is the name of somebody and a
15 pseudonym Z. If you refer to that person in the course of your testimony,
16 could you please use the pseudonym Z instead of that person's name.
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Witness, in 1992, which town did you live in?
19 A. Foca.
20 Q. With whom did you live there?
21 A. My family.
22 Q. Did you have --
23 A. My wife and three children.
24 Q. What kind of work did you do?
25 A. I worked in finance, in the field of finance.
1 Q. What level education did you have?
2 A. I graduated from the faculty of economics.
3 Q. What ethnicity are you?
4 A. Muslim.
5 Q. In 1992, were you politically active?
6 A. Yes, directly.
7 Q. In which party were you active?
8 A. Democratic party.
9 Q. Would you -- how would you describe its platform? Was it a
10 nationalistic party or different?
11 A. That party was definitely not nationalistic. It wasn't a
12 nationalistic party. It was a party with a democratic platform.
13 Q. Was there a time when you could not live in your apartment but had
14 to hide in the basement of your building in 1992?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. When was that?
17 A. Beginning of the latter half of April 1992.
18 Q. Why did you feel it necessary to hide?
19 A. Because otherwise I would have been liquidated, or arrested at
21 Q. Did your family hide with you?
22 A. No, not with me, but yes, in a manner of speaking, even though
23 they could lay their hands on my family.
24 Q. Why were you afraid that you would be liquidated?
25 A. Because I was a Muslim, that is number one. Secondly, I was an
1 educated man. Thirdly, as I've said, I dealt in finance. And four,
2 because I belonged to the party that I belonged to.
3 Q. Were there also Serbs that were hiding in the basement at that
4 time with you, or was it only Muslims?
5 A. In that basement before I hid there, as I told you, because I was
6 afraid they might liquidate me, so in the beginning Serbs were hiding
7 there. Later on, naturally, logically, I hid all by myself at the time
8 that I told you.
9 Q. Was there a time when your family left the basement and went
10 somewhere else?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where did your family go?
13 A. Hospital.
14 Q. Why did they go there?
15 A. Because they thought that nothing could happen to them in a
16 hospital. They believed that that was a place which was protected against
17 everything that was going on. However, that was not the case,
19 Q. How did they go to the hospital?
20 A. An ambulance car arrived. That is, a man whom I knew had sent
21 that vehicle to get me out, because there was fighting in the town already
22 and I could not leave normally, regularly, so that a neighbour, as my
23 family was boarding that vehicle of a neighbour of mine, and he's a Serb,
24 he asked me also to take his daughter along. There was one seat so I
25 stayed behind, she joined them, and she left with my family to the
1 hospital. So that I stayed there in the flat by the quirk of fate.
2 Q. Was this still at the time when there was fighting in Foca?
3 A. Not in the town itself. The fighting was not going on in the town
4 itself but one could hear gunfire and there was shelling and, yes, you
5 could put it that way.
6 Q. Do you know the reason why the daughter of your Serb neighbour
7 also wanted to seek protection at the hospital?
8 A. I wouldn't know that. I suppose she was afraid too, like my
9 family. Why specifically? I have no idea but she asked me if she could
10 come with us, and because there was one seat, then she took that seat that
11 I thought would be mine. Of course, I agreed to that.
12 Q. After your family left, did you stay in the basement or did you go
13 somewhere else in the building?
14 A. At that time, I was in the basement and there were also Serbs with
15 me, up to a certain time. When Foca was liberated, in inverted commas,
16 then they left, I mean Serbs.
17 Q. Was there at that -- do you remember the date when Foca was
18 liberated, as you say?
19 A. It happened between the 12 or 13 -- no, I'll be more specific, the
20 beginning of the latter half of April, 1993.
21 THE INTERPRETER: 1992, excuse me, interpreter's mistake.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, the transcript at line 2 of page 30, has
23 used the word liberated without putting it in inverted commas. I think it
24 is important that that is emphasised. It may be checked when the
25 transcript -- when the tape is heard but it is an important qualification
1 to what the witness was saying.
2 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
3 Q. Could you explain what you mean when you say Foca was liberated?
4 What act -- what happened?
5 A. They considered it liberated, because they had taken over the
6 power, and as of that moment, we became second-grade citizens, that is
7 they began to harass, to arrest, to persecute, liquidate in floods and all
8 the rest of it. That is, the word "liberation" is again indicated by the
9 present name of the town Foca. It is now called Srbinje. That is, they
10 even changed the name so that it would be linked to their nation, to their
11 ethnic group.
12 Q. When you say "they," whom do you mean?
13 A. I mean Serbs, or rather extreme Serbs.
14 Q. After your family left the basement, was there a time when you
15 stayed in someone's flat?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Without using the person's name but a pseudonym if appropriate,
18 whose flat did you stay in?
19 A. For a short time, in person Z's flat.
20 Q. What was your relationship to Z?
21 A. We were good neighbours.
22 Q. What was the ethnicity of Z?
23 A. Serb.
24 Q. Why did you stay in his flat?
25 A. Because my father called that person and told him that otherwise I
1 would be arrested, that he promised he'd do that, and he also said that he
2 wouldn't do it for me, but since it was my father who had called him from
3 Sarajevo, he'd do it for him, for my father.
4 Q. How many days did you stay in that person's flat?
5 A. Not very long.
6 Q. Do you know how many -- approximately how many days?
7 A. A day or two, and I moved over to another flat then.
8 Q. During the time that you stayed in that person's flat, did the
9 name of Milorad Krnojelac ever come up?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac?
12 A. Absolutely not. I knew the family. I mean, I knew the surname,
13 I've heard about it, but otherwise, I didn't know him at all.
14 Q. How did his name come up?
15 A. His name came up in the following context. At the time when I was
16 hiding in person Z's flat, I talked there with (redacted), and they
17 are related. And after that, I asked, "What are you talking about?" And
18 he said that (redacted) had been arrested and that he was in a
19 concentration camp - and I'm going to use that term, "concentration camp,"
20 rather than prison or whatever, in my further testimony - and that (redacted)
21 (redacted) had asked him if he could do something for the person that I've
22 just mentioned, that is (redacted) because (redacted) had come
23 to see (redacted) and asked him to intercede on his behalf. And he
24 told me he'd call Krnojelac, and I asked him, "Who's that?" And he said
25 that that was somebody, a teacher, who used to work (redacted)
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 (redacted), and he described him to me briefly: shortish,
2 skinny. Do you want me to go on?
3 Q. When you say "He described him to me," who is "he"? Who described
5 A. Person Z, person Z.
6 Q. How did person Z know Milorad Krnojelac?
7 A. (redacted)
9 Q. And what did person Z say that he was going to do regarding
10 Mr. Krnojelac?
11 A. That he'd call. And he proceeded to do so immediately.
12 Q. Why was he calling Mr. Krnojelac? What was the purpose of the
14 A. The purpose of the call was to help Enes Zekovic because the two
15 of them, (redacted)
17 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. This Z that we have on the Exhibit
18 425, is that to be a witness in the case?
19 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour, but because this witness -- this
20 witness has told us that he's a Serb, he was concerned about his identity
21 being known.
22 JUDGE HUNT: I'm concerned only so that we know how far the
23 transcript has to be redacted, but a lot of what has been said, I think,
24 will have to go out of the public version of the transcript.
25 MS. KUO: Your Honour, we can perhaps -- it's a bit of a
1 complicated story, and I think it's important.
2 JUDGE HUNT: I realise that but it may be that you are unable to
3 obtain the story without this being disclosed. If there is a lot of it,
4 it would be best if we went into private session for a short time so that
5 the transcript doesn't, when it becomes public, have a whole series of
6 redacted, redacted, redacted.
7 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour. That is probably the safer course.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, then we will go into private -- will this
9 take very long, this part of it?
10 MS. KUO: No, it shouldn't. Five minutes.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Then we will go into private session in a
13 [Private session]
13 Page 2726 redacted – private session
13 Page 2727 redacted – private session
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE HUNT: We are now back in public session. It seems hardly
17 worthwhile asking another question at this stage, Ms. Kuo. We will
18 adjourn now and resume at 11.30.
19 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
22 MS. KUO:
23 Q. Witness, during the time that you were hiding, did any soldiers
24 come looking? Did you encounter any soldiers?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Could you tell us where you were at that time?
2 A. You mean during that encounter?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. On the staircase on the first floor.
5 Q. What happened?
6 A. There was three soldiers who were dressed in black. Two had also
7 black berets with a characteristic sign, and a younger one had a black
8 band, and something was written on it. I don't remember what. Those
9 people had an accent, Serbian accent, which means that I did not know them
10 at all.
11 Q. What did they say to you?
12 A. They asked me what was my ethnic background.
13 Q. And what did you tell them?
14 A. I told them I was a citizen of Yugoslavia and had Muslim religion.
15 Q. Did they say anything to you then?
16 A. No, absolutely nothing. One of them, the older one, remained with
17 the person Z, and the two soldiers walked behind me with a weapon pointed
18 at me, and they asked me to go back to my apartment.
19 Q. Did you do that?
20 A. Yes. I had to do it.
21 Q. Did anything happen to you after that?
22 A. Yes. We came to the apartment, and they very superficially
23 searched the apartment. And I first initially thought that, you know,
24 they in fact were not interested in searching the apartment, but they had
25 much worse intentions.
1 The younger one, who was about 24, told me that there was a war
2 going on in Vukovar, and he told me to pick up an earth dish that was in
3 the kitchen and to open it up, and when he saw that it was empty, we went
4 back to the hallway. I was standing between the two of them in the
5 kitchen. When we came back to the hallway, the two of them retreated to
6 the same side. I was facing them, and one of them asked, "What should we
7 do with him?"
8 At that very moment, person Z walked in, basically running into my
9 apartment, because I previously had an arrangement with him not to leave
10 me alone, and at that moment he walked in and in a way he saved me from
11 that situation, which was very unpleasant.
12 So this was some kind of a threat. I don't know, a threat of
13 potential shooting or something like that.
14 Q. When you say he saved you, in what way did he save you?
15 A. Well, by his own presence he saved me. At that moment when they
16 were wondering what to do with me, he showed up at that very moment, and
17 naturally they couldn't shoot. However, they had the position from which
18 they could shoot at me. It was a very characteristic, very typical
19 position that they had at that moment.
20 Q. What did those soldiers do then?
21 A. We left the apartment together, and person Z told me that since
22 there were three individuals there, two of them took me to my apartment,
23 and the older one remained with person Z, and person Z later on told me
24 that this individual had told him that they were not allowed to be
25 friendly with Muslims.
1 Q. Did you encounter soldiers or did soldiers come back?
2 A. Yes. Around 2.00 a.m., one person who happened -- I went to my
3 apartment by chance. I went there to take a shower. And a person whose
4 name I do not wish to mention because I'm very grateful to this person --
5 this person is not alive any more but I still do not wish to mention this
6 person's name. So this person called me and said, "Run away, they will
7 cut your throat." When I asked this person who, the person just repeated,
8 "Run. They will cut your throat." And at that moment, since I was
9 dressed, I went immediately down to the basement. And as soon as I walked
10 into the basement, I heard terrible noise. Since the door was locked and
11 the person Z, based on our prior agreement, had the key, unfortunately, he
12 had a wrong key. They said, "Open up or we will shoot." This person went
13 back to his apartment, took a right key and came back. I recognised the
14 voice of the younger soldier who had been in my apartment that very day,
15 and this person asked, "Where is that dark man?" The person Z asked,
16 "Which one?" The soldier said, "Where is that balija?" And I could hear
17 other voices that I could recognise, which means that those were local
18 Chetniks. There was a group of about 10 people there, and they mentioned
19 my name.
20 So this young person, this young soldier, who had been in my
21 apartment previously that day, said that he would be my judge and my
23 They went with person Z. The person Z walked in front of them,
24 and this is what I'd been told by this person. They pointed rifles into
25 his back. They walked to my apartment. I heard from the basement
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 terrible noise, which means that they broke into my apartment and searched
2 it. At that very moment, another person went down to the basement. I
3 know this person's nickname, which was Zelja, and this person went down to
4 the basement to search it.
5 Q. Excuse me, I'm going to interrupt you there. How -- did you see
6 this person Zelja when he came down to the basement?
7 A. No, no. I wouldn't be alive.
8 Q. How do you know it was him?
9 A. Mother of a girl who I let go to the hospital instead of me was
10 together with me in the basement, so she was the one who told me. She
11 covered me with blankets and then those women sat on me. She told me,
12 "Don't worry, I will go out." She went, a bottle of brandy, and she went
13 out into the hallway which was in front of the basement and she started
14 towards this person, towards Zelja as he was coming down the stairs. And
15 then she asked him what he wanted. And he replied that he wanted to
16 search the basement. She told him there were only women and children
17 there. He kept insisting on doing that. She recognised his voice and
18 then she told him, "Is that, you, Zelja?" and cursed his mother and told
19 him, "If you come in, I will call Pero Elez," because Pero Elez was a
20 high-ranking individual. So she threatened him with his name, and then
21 they had a friendly chat and perhaps had a drink or two. And in the end,
22 he did not go into the basement.
23 Q. Did you hear what happened -- what the other people were doing,
24 the ones who went upstairs with person Z?
25 A. I didn't understand the question.
1 Q. I'm sorry. Earlier you said that you heard the sound of your
2 apartment being broken into. From that point on, did you hear what those
3 people did or said?
4 A. In my apartment?
5 Q. Either in your apartment or outside your apartment.
6 A. Well, so they actually searched the apartment. And as they were
7 coming back from the apartment, person Z recognised Krnojelac's brothers
8 and asked them, "Are you Milorad's relatives?" And then they had a
9 friendly chat there, which means that he did not recognise them at that
10 moment, because they went to my apartment and the weapons were pointed at
11 him. And after they searched it, they went downstairs and as they were
12 coming out of the building, this is where he asked them, are you those and
13 those and then they had had a very simple, friendly chat.
14 Q. Did you actually hear Z ask the question, "Are you Milorad's
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you hear a response?
18 A. Well, yes. After that, well, they were talking. They continued
19 talking, which means that the answer was affirmative. I can't remember
20 right now whether it was an explicit "yes". However, they had a very
21 natural conversation with typical questions, which indicated they had
22 known each other.
23 Q. Did person Z tell you afterwards who those two people were, those
24 two relatives of Milorad?
25 A. Yes. Person Z told me that it was those individuals.
1 Q. Who were they? What did person Z tell you? You're allowed to use
2 their names if he told you the names.
3 A. I don't know the names. I can't remember. I think that in my
4 first statement I did give the first names. However, he -- I said that
5 they were Milorad's sons. And the names are in the statement, the first
7 Q. If I showed you a copy of your first statement, would that help
8 you remember?
9 A. Certainly.
10 MS. KUO: I'll ask the usher to hand the ID, the document ID 108A
11 to the witness and direct the witness to page 5.
12 A. Yes, that's the statement I gave. That's right, the names are
13 here. The first one mentioned I know because he had a cafe bar and I
14 could describe him, which means that I knew him superficially from before
15 the war.
16 Q. What was his name?
17 A. Spomenko Krnojelac.
18 Q. And the other son?
19 A. Bozidar.
20 Q. Do you know him?
21 A. Perhaps by sight.
22 Q. Thank you. Did Z or this woman who talked to Zelja tell you
23 whether they were able to recognise or to see the faces of the people that
24 they talked to, or were they covered?
25 A. Based on my assumption and based on what I described to you, it is
1 likely that those people had stockings on their faces because it was, it
2 was in the early days or the first day when they entered, in inverted
3 commas, the town. So it would be logical for them to be covered because
4 they were not sure of the outcome, so it is likely that they had stockings
5 over their faces. That's my assumption, but this is also what I've heard.
6 Q. The three soldiers you did see earlier that day, did they have
7 stockings over their faces?
8 A. No, absolutely not.
9 Q. Did your family return at some point?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And did you continue to hide?
12 A. Yes, the whole time until St. Vitus's day, 28th of June, which is
13 when I left Foca, I think, so ...
14 Q. Where did you hide after your family came back?
15 A. In my apartment.
16 Q. Was there a specific place in your apartment that you hid?
17 A. Yes. The most visible location in the kitchen, under the sink.
18 It was a great risk, and there was a great likelihood of them finding me.
19 Q. In fact, did soldiers continue looking for you during that time?
20 A. Yes. On one occasion Zoran Vukovic came with another man. They
21 came into the apartment. They searched it. They inquired as to my
22 whereabouts and said that it was -- I was making a grave error of not
23 being there, because officially I was in Montenegro. I simply tried to
24 detract attention from my family and my apartment. And then at the end he
25 asked for a glass of water, which means that he and I were about ten
1 centimetres apart.
2 Q. But you were hidden, right?
3 A. Yes. I was under the sink, in the cabinet under the sink.
4 Q. Now, witness you said you were officially in Montenegro. What do
5 you mean by that?
6 A. Not officially, not, not -- not on business, simply that I fled
7 into Montenegro because the war was going on.
8 Q. Was that true?
9 A. No, absolutely no. I was in the apartment, or rather, in the
10 apartment building. I was hiding there the entire time. This was simply
11 a tactical move on my part. And my wife spread this rumour around through
12 the neighbours because we know that they had been looking for me very
14 Q. While you were hiding, did you ever hear any broadcasts of a
15 speech by Miroslav Stanic?
16 A. Yes, absolutely.
17 Q. Can you tell us who Miroslav Stanic was during this time?
18 A. Chairman of the SDS, and later on chairman of the SDS Crisis
19 Staff. We cooperated politically as far as was possible.
20 Q. Where was the speech being broadcast?
21 A. Behind my apartment building in the so-called JNA hall there was a
22 radio station, and there were loudspeakers so that this broadcast was --
23 could be heard really well. Two things that I remember very vividly and
24 which I can quote is that, "Hodza's voice will not be heard in Foca any
25 more," and that "Circumcised Muslim children will not walk around the town
1 any more." So these two statements, in addition to war conditions and so
2 on, is something that I remember quite vividly.
3 Q. You said "hodza's voice." Could you explain what you meant by
4 that? It may not be clear.
5 A. Which means that Muslim -- Islam religion would not be present
6 there any more, and also that there wouldn't be any more Muslim children
7 there, because they had mentioned circumcised Muslim children, which means
8 that all those children would be destroyed.
9 Q. Did you recognise Miroslav Stanic's voice, or was he announced or
11 A. I gave statements to the same radio station before the war. I
12 know this individual personally because he was announced as the chairman
13 of the Crisis Staff. They announced his name, his first name and his last
14 name, but I also recognised his voice.
15 Q. Approximately when did you hear this announcement? You can just
16 tell us the month and approximately when.
17 A. I heard the broadcast when my family was in the apartment. My
18 family returned around the 25th of April, which means -- let me just put
19 it in a time frame. So this means that that probably was late April,
20 early May.
21 Q. Did you ever hear any other announcements placing restrictions on
22 the movement of Muslims?
23 A. Yes, yes. Across from my apartment building there was a police
24 vehicle which announced information through a loudspeaker, which means
25 that that car would stop every 100 or 200 metres in order to cover a
1 certain area and announce certain information. One of the information
2 announced was that Muslim males between 18 and 65 years were not allowed
3 to leave town, and also, they were not allowed to meet together in Muslim
4 houses. I heard this loud and clear.
5 There were two individuals in that vehicle wearing old, former
6 Yugoslav police uniforms, and this is the announcement I had heard because
7 my balcony was open and the distance was quite little, quite short between
8 where I was standing and this vehicle. And then this vehicle continued
9 driving towards the market. This is what I observed.
10 So as I said, this was a police vehicle with policemen in it.
11 Q. And to clarify, this was civil police, not military; is that
13 A. Yes, civil police of the former Yugoslavia. So the vehicle
14 belonged to the police of the former Yugoslavia, and the policemen wore
15 typical uniforms that policemen of the former Yugoslavia had.
16 Q. Now, you said that one of the announcements was that Muslim men
17 between 18 and 65 were not allowed to leave town. Was there any
18 restriction on their ability to walk about inside the town?
19 A. Well, yes, there was a limitation on their movement. They were
20 not -- their ability to move around the town was limited. So one could
21 see only women in the stores; one couldn't see any men in the store. And
22 I could see this because I was standing at a very good location with -- a
23 high traffic location, so I could observe this very clearly.
24 The only individual adult male that I saw moving around was very
25 shortly thereafter arrested and went to prison, and if needed, I can state
1 the name of this individual.
2 Q. It's not necessary at this point, Witness. Did your wife go to
3 work during this time?
4 A. After my return from Sarajevo, because I went to Sarajevo for the
5 weekend and then returned to Foca, so my wife one or two days later went
6 to work. And after that, she was told that she was not desirable there at
7 the office.
8 Q. You said you went to Sarajevo. I think we need to clarify your
9 time period. When was it that your wife was told she was not needed at
11 A. Yes. I can say this. If Monday, in 1992, was the 6th, we can
12 verify this, or, rather, you can verify this. So 8th or 9th of April of
13 1992, this is what she was told, that she was not wanted in the office
14 because she was my wife.
15 Q. Is your wife Muslim?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What ethnicity is she?
18 A. She is orthodox, which means a Serb.
19 Q. Could you tell us when you finally left Foca? You said St.
20 Vitus's Day. Could you tell us how you left Foca?
21 A. With the assistance of a person whose name I do not wish to
22 mention because this person is not alive any more. So this person helped
23 me leave.
24 Q. Did you obtain a permit to leave?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. Perhaps you could clarify, if you know this. If you had spread
2 the rumour that you were already not in town, how was it that you were
3 able to secure a permit to leave? Do you know the answer to that?
4 A. That was quite a risky move, probably the riskiest in that entire
5 period, if I previously told that I was in Montenegro and then I'm asking
6 for a permit, which indicates that I was present there in town. However,
7 one couldn't leave without this permit. I was hiding in an apartment and
8 the people I knew personally were guarding me with weapons. My wife went
9 to SUP and took care of this. So that one can say so, I left Foca safely
10 because basically everything had been arranged previously. On Montenegrin
11 border in Pluzine I showed my IDs. This person who was driving me in a
12 car, this person was in uniform and armed. This person told me that I was
13 allowed to show my IDs. This person left the rifle and had just a pistol
14 on him, and we continued -- me and my family continued in a car to
16 Q. This person who helped you leave, was that person a Serb or a
18 A. A Serb, of course.
19 MS. KUO: Those are all the Prosecution's questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic?
21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
23 Q. Good afternoon, sir, allow me to introduce myself. I'm Miroslav
24 Vasic, and I'm one of the counsel for the accused, Milorad Krnojelac.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Today, I apologise, could the ELMO be
1 moved a little, because I cannot see the witness.
2 A. I can see you very well.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo hasn't complained about the light being on
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My learned friend asked you today to describe an event which took
8 place in Mr. Z's flat. Could you tell us, were you present at the
9 telephone conversation between Mr. Begovic and Mr. Z?
10 A. What do you mean?
11 Q. Did you overhear the conversation between them?
12 A. Could you hear the conversation that I, for instance, am
13 conducting right now? Physically I could not do that.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the counsel please pause
15 between question and answer?
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Could you hear Mr. Z's answers or replies to Mr. Zekovic [as
19 A. No, I was not in that room.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Now you get your usual lecture. You are both
22 speaking in the same language. The interpreters have great difficulty
23 unless there is a pause between the question and the answer. So,
24 Mr. Vasic, you should wait until the translation of the answer is
25 finished, and the witness should wait until the translation of the
1 question is finished. A pause from each of you, please.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. Can you tell us if Mr. Z told you after -- told you about his
4 conversation with Mr. Zekovic [as interpreted] Before or after the
5 conversation with Mr. Krnojelac?
6 A. Before.
7 Q. You said today that when Mr. Z was to call Mr. Krnojelac, that he
8 indicated to you that your presence in that room was not wanted.
9 A. It wasn't an indication. It was the way he behaved, which simply
10 told me that I -- that my presence was not there, and since I was a
11 well-bred child, I was brought up in a good family, I, of course
12 understood that he did not want me there.
13 Q. Thank you. I understand that but can you then tell me how is it,
14 in your view -- why is it, in your view, that he told you what they talked
15 about, since he did not want to hear it?
16 A. Well, you have to ask him about that. I was very interested in
17 it, and that was the answer that he gave me. I suppose he gave me a
18 milder version.
19 Q. Did you ask Mr. Z about that conversation?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. A while ago, you said that you left the room because you had been
22 properly brought up and that you did not want to impede Mr. Z's
23 conversation. Then why did you then ask him about what they had talked
24 about, since that question -- since that conversation was of no concern to
1 A. I was curious to know.
2 Q. Thank you. Sir, the statement that my learned friend showed to
3 you, the statement that you gave to OTP investigators in 1995, have you
4 read this statement and signed every page of this statement?
5 A. Do you have the statement?
6 Q. Can you answer my question? Because I do have the statement. I
7 was given it by the Prosecution.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Why, in that statement, do you not mention in a single word the
10 things that happened in Mr. Z's flat, either the telephone conversations
11 between Mr. Begovic and Mr. Z or telephone conversation between Mr. Z and
12 Mr. Krnojelac, or any of what you told us today?
13 A. Perhaps I did not remember it at the time.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. Today, in your testimony, you said that you had
15 heard a conversation between Mr. Z and Mr. Krnojelac's sons in front of
16 the building.
17 A. Not in front of the building but in the doorway of the building.
18 Q. You said today that you overheard the question that Mr. Z asked of
19 those sons.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why is it the first time that you mention it today? You did not
22 say that in any of your earlier statements.
23 A. The statement gives the full name.
24 Q. Yes. The statement does contain the full name but it also says
25 that Mr. Z had told you that, not that you had overheard it. The
1 statement says that witness Z recognised them by their voices because they
2 wore ski caps.
3 A. Not ski caps. That's an error. They had stockings.
4 Q. The statement says ski caps. And it also --
5 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. You know, Mr. Vasic, the procedure by which
6 these statements are taken. A covering on his head, it's not really
7 relevant. He has given it in B/C/S, it's translated into English, he
8 signs the English, and then English is translated into B/C/S again, and
9 that's the document you've got. And for a ski cap to become or a ski hat
10 to become a stocking is -- or I'm sorry, a stocking to become a ski cap is
11 not really a material distinction upon which it's worth cross-examining.
12 Now, can we just stick to the real problems that you say exist in this
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, and that is why
15 I wish to focus on the first part of the question, and that is that the
16 witness has said he recognised their voices.
17 Q. Was that -- was on the basis of that that you concluded that it
18 was Mr. Krnojelac's son? Today you told us that you overheard the
19 question yourself. Which of the two is true?
20 A. Both. I mean, I heard it personally, and he confirmed it to me.
21 Q. Then why in your statement to OTP investigators you did not
22 mention that you had overheard the question?
23 A. I did not think it of significance.
24 Q. Thank you. Today you mentioned that you had observed people go
25 shopping around the town. Were those shops looted at the end of wartime
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you see who looted them?
4 A. Yes, I could see it with my own eyes because shops which are below
5 my building, I saw them being looted.
6 Q. Whom did you see loot shops?
7 A. Serb women, children.
8 Q. How did you know they were Serb women and children?
9 A. Because they were my neighbours and I know them very well.
10 Q. Thank you. And what about the supply of those shops at the time
11 after the pillage?
12 A. I think it was relatively all right.
13 Q. And do you know, where did the goods come from, if you think that
14 it was -- that the supply was all right?
15 A. No, I don't know that.
16 Q. Did you observe those shops through your window?
17 A. What do you mean?
18 Q. At the time of the plunder or --
19 A. I saw them as they were looted, personally, and when the supplies
20 arrived I could not because my wife had to go and buy something. But when
21 I speak about supplies, I mean basic necessities, basic foodstuffs.
22 Q. Thank you. Today you said that Muslims were forbidden to move
23 around the town. Are you aware that right before this prohibition a large
24 number of Serb soldiers had been killed at the front line?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You mentioned Enes Zekovic's name today. Do you know him?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Do you know him well?
4 A. Well, depends on what you mean by this.
5 Q. Is he a friend of yours? Are you close?
6 A. Well, I can't say that we are close, but we know one another well,
7 quite well.
8 Q. Do you know, what was his -- the state of his health in 1992?
9 A. I know that prior to the war he had some prostate problems. I
10 know that he had some complaints. He went to Ljubljana to have a surgical
11 intervention as far as I know.
12 Q. In your statement to OTP investigators, you said that the military
13 police had their headquarters in the Zelengora Hotel; is that correct?
14 A. It is.
15 Q. You also said that the headquarters were all plastered over with
16 photographs of Muslims?
17 A. I did not say pictures, that is not correct. It was plastered
18 over with lists of full names of Muslims who were not desirable, who were,
19 I guess, on a culling list, that is, who were responsible for what had
20 happened, for the war.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell us, then, did the military police arrest those
22 men from those lists?
23 A. Most of those people were not in Foca by the time.
24 Q. Do you know, when did those people leave Foca?
25 A. What people?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. Those people who were on the lists and who had left Foca.
2 A. Could you please repeat the question.
3 Q. Do you know, when did the people whose names who were on the
4 military police lists about whom you said that they had already left Foca,
5 do you know, when did they leave Foca?
6 A. How can I know? I was hiding. I have no idea.
7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned men who guarded you under arms. Could
8 you tell us if they were Serbs or Muslims?
9 A. Serbs.
10 Q. Can you tell us after you left Foca, where did you go, what town?
11 A. That is not important. I do not want to tell you.
12 Q. Did you go to Serbia?
13 A. I do not want to answer that question.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. In your statement to the OTP, did you speak about
15 how in Foca there was no electricity at the time?
16 A. Possibly, because power would be cut off from time to time.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you, sir.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no
19 further questions.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination, Ms. Kuo?
21 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. You are now free to leave. Thank
23 you for giving your evidence, but please wait before you leave until the
24 blinds have been lowered so that you may leave the courtroom without the
25 public seeing you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that takes us through to the end of the list,
3 no doubt because of the Tuesday videolink, a witness went out. I thought
4 at one stage that 58 might have filled out the time for us.
5 There are a few things I think we have got to sort out before we
6 take the break. Has everything been done that can be done in relation to
7 the medical examination?
8 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we have located a potential candidate whom
9 we think is very promising, so we hope to file something, if not today or
10 tomorrow, then certainly early next week.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Well, when we hear, we could make an order if
12 those details could be given to us.
13 Is there anything else from the Prosecution's point of view that
14 we've got outstanding? Nothing that I can think of, but if you have
15 anything you want to raise, now is the time to do it.
16 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, Mr. Bakrac, there are a couple of
18 things, if I may remind you. Those materials in the document which is
19 marked P55/2, that's the material dealing with the persons who the
20 Prosecution say died as a result of treatment inside the KP Dom but whose
21 names do not appear on Schedule C to the indictment.
22 Now, this was given to you last year. We did ask you to look at
23 it over Christmas. You have promised, however, that you'll come back
24 after this week's break with your attitude towards that document, so I
25 remind you of that.
1 The other matter I should remind you about, these photographs that
2 you have had taken. We're very anxious that if possible, those
3 photographs can be shown to the Prosecution witnesses so that if there
4 remains any issue as to what could be seen from various rooms and various
5 levels within the KP Dom, their evidence will be of greater importance in
6 the case if they have actually seen those photographs.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Your Honours, I don't
8 know whether I should be happy or worried that you remember every detail.
9 It is quite true that we undertook to do this. What I can say now
10 is as regards our investigation regarding the supplementary list, from the
11 contacts that we have with part of the team which is back in Yugoslavia,
12 so far we have not found any information to the contrary; that is, we do
13 not have evidence that those persons are living.
14 We, of course, continue to dispute the time and the place and the
15 way in which those persons died, but we have no evidence. We have no
16 documents. And we tried to find them that would testify to the contrary.
17 That is that the -- contrary to what the Prosecution alleges, that these
18 persons are still alive. I believe that is what you wanted us to do.
19 That is what we were told to check.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That was the first matter. But the purpose of
21 raising it with you from the very word "go" in this trial was to permit
22 the Prosecution to prove these matters in effect by hearsay evidence,
23 because if there was going to be no evidence from your side which
24 contradicted it, this was clearly a matter which could be established by
25 the investigator's inquiries.
1 I hasten to emphasise, though, that the only issue that that
2 material will prove is the fact that they are no longer alive. The issue
3 which you have taken as to the cause of their death and the time of their
4 death remains open. That's a matter that the Prosecution has to
5 establish, and you may or may not have some material to contradict
6 their -- the inferences which are drawn from the evidence which is
7 presently before us. But if you have nothing which contradicts the
8 material in P55/2, then that can be made an exhibit. The next question
9 is: Do you want to cross-examine the investigator in relation to that
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, regarding the relatives
12 of persons in Schedule C, we said there was no need to call those persons,
13 to waste time. I think it will be good, and that is what the Defence
14 would like, and that concerns those additional persons and their
15 relatives. The Defence would, however, like to ask some questions of
16 investigators, in view of the places where they were located and so on and
17 so forth. I do not think that would take too much time, and it would be
18 of help to the Defence. In other words, the investigators only, not the
19 relatives, not the next of kin of those who died.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We made it very clear at the time when the
21 investigator was giving evidence that he would be recalled if you wished
22 to have him recalled, and the Prosecution will have to recall him for that
24 Although you may be delighted that we have remembered all these
25 details, there is one matter that I haven't come to yet, a third matter,
1 and that is we are still waiting for you to identify in the transcript
2 where you have challenged any evidence led by the Prosecution that the
3 Muslim detainees received less food than the Serbian detainees. Now, the
4 passage that you referred me to before, when Mr. Vasic cross-examined one
5 of the witnesses about his failure to state in his statement that the Serb
6 prisoners were throwing bread, is not taking issue with that particular
7 matter. Now, I've had the transcript checked. There is nothing that we
8 can find in the transcript where you have ever challenged that issue. The
9 issue which you have raised - and it's a fair enough one to raise - is
10 that there was very little food to go around, but the point that the
11 Prosecution is seeking to make here is not that everybody had to starve
12 but that the food which was available was unfairly and unequally
13 distributed so that the Muslim prisoners got far less than the Serb
14 prisoners or detainees. Now, that's the matter which, so far as I can
15 see, there has been no issue taken. When we resume, we are going to ask
16 you to tell us any page references that you can give us. So that will be
17 your opportunity. Otherwise, I propose to tell the Prosecution that that
18 matter is no longer in issue, if it ever has been.
19 But those are the three matters that I wanted to raise with you.
20 Are there any matters which you want to raise at this stage?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. There were quite a
22 number of witnesses, and what we had the opportunity to look into in our
23 notes and transcripts, we shall use this break to go through that again.
24 I hope you will not misinterpret me. You must have already checked the
25 accuracy of such allegations, but we shall also look into it, and if we
1 think that this matter is in a way in dispute, then we shall notify you
2 about it on the first day after the break.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, but is there any other matter,
4 apart from those three issues that I've raised, that you want to raise
5 before we go for a week's break?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, not for the time
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. We realise that both parties
9 have an awful lot of work to do whilst they are not sitting in court. We
10 also have a lot of work to do, on this and other cases. We will be here
11 next week, if you need any particular orders made, but otherwise we will
12 see you again on Monday week at 9.30. We will now adjourn.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.30 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of
15 February, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.