Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2993

1 Wednesday, 14 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir.

13 Yes, Mr. Smith.

14 MR. SMITH: Witness, I would ask you to read the solemn

15 declaration.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, are you ready to proceed?

17 MR. SMITH: Yes.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Stand up, would you please, sir. Would you make the

19 solemn declaration in the document which is being shown to you.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir. Perhaps, Mr. Smith, what I

25 was waiting for was an application to amend the protective measures,

Page 2994

1 because this is the rather strange situation of having facial distortion

2 but no pseudonym.

3 MR. SMITH: It is a unique situation, Your Honour. He's quite

4 happy that his name be made known. It's for a particular reason that he

5 doesn't want his face shown on the TV.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then, as long as everybody is aware of the

7 situation. You proceed.

8 Examined by Mr. Smith:

9 Q. Witness, the protective measure in relation to your image has been

10 granted by the Court. Could you please look at a piece of paper in front

11 of you? It contains a name and a number alongside. If you would like to

12 refer to this individual in your testimony, could you please just use the

13 number and not the name? Do you understand?

14 A. Yes, yes, I do.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit P427 and it will be

16 under seal.

17 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Witness, what is your name?

19 A. Juso Taranin.

20 Q. And how old are you?

21 A. Sixty -- no, 71.

22 Q. And what ethnicity are you?

23 A. Muslim.

24 Q. Are you married?

25 A. I am.

Page 2995

1 Q. And you have three adult children?

2 A. Correct, yes.

3 Q. In early April, 1992, where did you live?

4 A. In Foca.

5 Q. Is that the town of Foca?

6 A. I beg your pardon? Yes, in the town of Foca.

7 Q. And in what neighbourhood did you live?

8 A. Gornje Polje, Branko Gagovic Street BB.

9 Q. And about how far from the centre of the town of Foca was that?

10 A. Well, some 600 to 700 metres maybe.

11 Q. Did you live in a seven-storey apartment block?

12 A. I did, yes, on the seventh floor.

13 Q. About how many apartments were in that apartment building?

14 A. Thirty-two perhaps. I'm not quite sure but I reckon that's how

15 many because there was a lift so I always took the lift. I never counted

16 them.

17 Q. Do you know the ethnicity of the occupants in the building,

18 whether they were all Serb or all Muslim or 50/50, or some other?

19 A. Well, two, three, or four flights more is how many more Serbs were

20 there than Muslims before the war.

21 Q. The other group was the Muslim group, is that right, people of

22 Muslim ethnicity?

23 A. Muslims, right. Yes, Muslims.

24 Q. Were you living with your wife at that time?

25 A. I was.

Page 2996

1 Q. How long had you lived in the town of Foca by early April 1992?

2 A. Since 1960.

3 Q. You lived in a village in Foca before that; is that correct?

4 A. The village of Brusna, Foca municipality.

5 Q. In 1992 had you retired?

6 A. No. It was in 1987 that I was retired.

7 Q. Where did you work before you retired?

8 A. Maglic company, plywood and other timber products factory.

9 Q. You were a machine operator there; is that correct?

10 A. It is, yes.

11 Q. In 1992 were you a member of any political party?

12 A. No, no party.

13 Q. Were you assigned to any military unit?

14 A. No.

15 Q. At this time did you have a weekend house in Pilipovici in Foca?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. And that's a village in Foca. And about how far away from Foca

18 town is it?

19 A. It is a village, yes, about eight kilometres, thereabouts. I'm

20 not quite sure, but something like that.

21 Q. And is that on the main road between Foca and Gorazde?

22 A. Well, you could say that. It's not on the road directly, but you

23 can see it. It's on a slight elevation.

24 Q. And could you see the main road from your house, your weekend

25 house in Pilipovici?

Page 2997

1 A. I could. I could. Which leads to Gorazde.

2 Q. And approximately how many houses were in the village of

3 Pilipovici?

4 A. My house, my cottage was in the village, but there were very many

5 houses in the village. I don't know how many, because there were others

6 scattered, but many houses.

7 Q. And what was the main ethnicity of the people in the village?

8 A. Muslims, all of them.

9 Q. Was there also a JNA fuel depot in the village of Pilipovici?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And about how far from your weekend house was that JNA fuel depot?

12 A. Four hundred, five hundred metres, thereabouts.

13 Q. And in early April 1992 were you caused to leave the Foca town to

14 go to your weekend house in Pilipovici?

15 A. Yes. I was forced to go. I had reason to go.

16 Q. And can you explain to the Court why you left Foca town and

17 travelled to Pilipovici?

18 A. Well, the day before I left there was a lot of gunfire in the

19 town, and we were in that building. We went downstairs to the ground

20 floor. There were quite a number of us, both Serbs and Muslims. And that

21 night, during the gunfire, I would go out several times when there would

22 be a lull there, and go up to my floor, to the seventh, cast a look, see

23 that nothing is on fire, that one can see that anything had been set on

24 fire, but one could hear those huge detonations, and then I would go back

25 to the cellar again, that is, to the entrance. And that is how we spent

Page 2998

1 that whole night.

2 The next day, a man who was there with me set off down to

3 Ustikolina, and I left with him to that village of Pilipovici, and that's

4 where I was and nobody, nothing -- we left around 10.00 and there was

5 nobody. I couldn't see a living soul anywhere. Only a car passed by now

6 and then. And we went through when there was no gunfire at all. There

7 was no gunfire at all during the day. And I thus went to Pilipovici and I

8 got to my cottage in Pilipovici. And there I spent some time, 15, 10, 15

9 days. I don't know how many exactly.

10 Q. If I can stop you there, Mr. Taranin. Do you remember what time

11 this shooting and detonations started that night, the night before you

12 left, approximately?

13 A. Well, about 10.00, 9.00, 10.00 in the evening, and then it went on

14 all night.

15 Q. And about what time in the morning did it cease?

16 A. Well, when the day began to break.

17 Q. I think you said that you went out to the -- or you looked to see

18 where the shooting and detonations was coming from. Do you know where it

19 was coming from?

20 A. Well, mostly around the town. And in those parts where we were,

21 where I was, I could not observe any shooting near that building because

22 it was slightly on the side towards Brod, down the Drina.

23 Q. And what were the residents of the building doing, the Muslims and

24 Serbs? Were you taking -- were people taking cover?

25 A. Well, what I know, people worked. It was April. It was the

Page 2999

1 sowing season. And I also worked around my cottage, planting potatoes,

2 all sorts of vegetables, and people in around the village did the same

3 thing.

4 Q. Sorry, I'm sorry, I meant during the night whilst the shooting and

5 detonations were occurring. What were the occupants of the building

6 doing, the apartment building that you lived in, during the night?

7 A. During the night, those who were in the building, they were all

8 downstairs on the ground floor in that building of mine, or perhaps

9 somebody was -- if he was not afraid, perhaps he stayed in his flat. But

10 I think that those were few and far between.

11 Q. And why were they on the ground floor? Were they seeking cover

12 from any possible shooting or shelling?

13 A. Right, seeking shelter from shelling, from gunfire, and to see

14 that nobody entered the building. Men were in front of the building,

15 Serbs and Muslims both.

16 Q. And you said that morning that you left for Pilipovici. Had other

17 Muslims left your apartment building as well?

18 A. No, only that one and I, but there weren't many, no. I don't

19 know. Only the two of us left, and my wife, because the wife and children

20 of that other one were down there in Ustikolina.

21 Q. And you mentioned that a friend of yours took you to Pilipovici?

22 A. Yes, yes. That friend, that neighbour from the building.

23 Q. So as far as you know, you were the only ones that left. The

24 Muslims and the Serbs from the building stayed there?

25 A. Stayed.

Page 3000

1 Q. In the apartment building?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And why did you leave that morning?

4 A. Well, I left mostly because of that -- all that gunfire and

5 because I had my cottage down there, so because I was afraid, because I

6 was fearful. I don't know.

7 Q. And before this night of shooting and shelling, did you notice any

8 political or administrative changes in the town of Foca, in terms of the

9 control of political or administrative facilities?

10 A. Well, yes, I did. I did notice that something was afoot, that

11 there would be a conflict. And then I listened to Radio Foca. The

12 parliament there was in session and they were negotiating and it was said

13 that they could not reach an agreement not to have a conflict. It was a

14 couple of days, a day, two days, before the gunfire started, and that was

15 that.

16 Q. Do you know what date the gunfire started?

17 A. I wouldn't know that, no, I wouldn't. No. I did not think about

18 it at all.

19 Q. And before this night of gunfire, were there any changes in the

20 control of the radio station or the police station or other facilities?

21 A. It was said they had taken the post office, the police, the radio

22 station, Foca Radio, and that was that.

23 Q. And when you say "they," who do you mean by that?

24 A. Why, the SDS.

25 Q. And how did you hear this, this takeover of these facilities?

Page 3001

1 A. Radio Foca, Radio Foca, broadcast that -- because they took that

2 over immediately that evening, before the shooting started.

3 Q. And what was the relationship, the social relationships, between

4 Muslims and Serbs before the night of the gunfire, just generally?

5 A. Well, it depends. They were good -- I mean, they were quite all

6 right in my building. In my building, the relations were quite all

7 right. They were good.

8 Q. Before the night of the shooting, did you see weapons being

9 distributed to other people in your apartment building?

10 A. Yes. I saw weapons being issued to the Serbs before the shooting

11 started, before that night.

12 Q. And who was issuing the weapons?

13 A. I don't know, officers, but they came in a car and issued weapons

14 and clothes. I mean those military clothing, who wanted to take them, but

15 they did it by surnames.

16 Q. And where was this happening?

17 A. In the yard in front of the building.

18 Q. And were you with the group that were receiving the weapons or

19 were you in some other place? Were you in your apartment?

20 A. No, no, no. I was not there. I was not exactly there. I was in

21 the yard, on the other side of the yard. And in the entrance to the

22 right, a car came in and they stopped there. It was all organised,

23 distributed. They knew who to give them to by surnames. Never tried to

24 hide it.

25 Q. And about how many Serbs from your apartment building did you

Page 3002












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Page 3003

1 receive -- did you see receive weapons?

2 A. Well, I wouldn't know the exact number but there were -- those who

3 were -- who stood guard with me, they all had weapons in the cellar.

4 Q. Can you give an approximate number of the people that you saw that

5 were receiving weapons? Not an exact number, but an approximate.

6 A. Well, I'm telling you: By and large, all those who were with me

7 had weapons with them. Whether they had all come there, I don't know, but

8 they were not hiding anything, anything. Well, what to say? There could

9 have been about ten men with some weapons in the building, I mean, in

10 front of the building.

11 Q. And was it -- did you see these ten men on that morning when the

12 vehicle pulled up distributing the weapons?

13 A. Not -- I didn't see those people really, because, you know, I

14 moved away not to look at those people, because, you know, it wasn't

15 simple. I mean, nobody tried to stop me, but I simply didn't feel like

16 looking. I just realised it wasn't -- things were not good.

17 Q. Do you know what type of weapons were being distributed that

18 morning, or that day?

19 A. Rifles mostly.

20 Q. And was it during the day or the night that you saw this?

21 A. Late afternoon, yes, but it was daytime, daytime. Yes, afternoon.

22 Q. You mentioned that after the night of shooting and shelling and

23 detonations, you went to Pilipovici and you stayed there for I think about

24 16 or so days. During that time what were you doing?

25 A. Yes. Well, I planted potatoes, onions, that sort of thing. I

Page 3004

1 went there and dug a little around my vegetable garden and looked around

2 me to see what was going on and trying to reckon what to do, where to go.

3 I watched people go down on the road, go past, and I saw them towards

4 Ustikolina. It was a column of the former detainees, former convicts, and

5 they were also passing in cars. People went by every day towards

6 Gorazde. They walked by from all the surrounding villages in Foca.

7 Q. And do you know what ethnicity these people were, or could you not

8 tell?

9 A. I can't -- I couldn't tell you that. I'm not sure. I couldn't,

10 because it was too far away, so ...

11 Q. And was there a constant flow of these people going towards

12 Gorazde over this period of time or was it sporadic?

13 A. Well, I didn't look all the time, and it was now and then, in

14 groups mostly. They would walk by in groups, and one could see women and

15 children, everybody.

16 Q. Were you receiving news as to what was occurring over this time in

17 other parts of Foca?

18 A. No. No. I didn't have a radio. There was no electricity,

19 nothing. I may have heard something from somebody. That was the only way

20 I could learn anything; otherwise, nothing, I mean, while I was in

21 Pilipovici.

22 Q. And after this time, did you decide to go to the JNA fuel depot?

23 A. I did decide that, yes, because I knew that officer and I decided

24 to go to him. I thought that the army, the former Yugoslav one, would

25 protect me, and that officer told me that I could be protected.

Page 3005

1 Q. Without mentioning that officer's name, does his name appear on

2 that page in front of you with the number 120? Don't say his name.

3 A. I don't know. 120, yes.

4 Q. And did your wife go to the JNA fuel depot as well for protection?

5 A. Now, there was trouble with the wife. She said she would come. I

6 left shortly before her and she stayed behind. She did not come.

7 Q. And do you know the exact date that you went to the compound or

8 the fuel depot?

9 A. I can't be sure about the date. I just know that it was Easter.

10 Q. And this was the Serb Orthodox Easter; is that right?

11 A. Yes. Yes.

12 Q. And when you arrived at the depot, were there other people like

13 yourself seeking protection there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And about how many were there?

16 A. Well, there were a lot, about 70 women, men, children; 60, 70,

17 something like that. I didn't count them, but it's somewhere around

18 there.

19 Q. About how many of them were men?

20 A. Well, about 20 men, approximately, adult men, that is.

21 Q. And do you know what --

22 A. I don't know the exact number, but somewhere around that.

23 Q. And do you know what ethnicity this group was, this group of 70?

24 A. All were Muslims. There was only one Serb.

25 Q. And were there any JNA soldiers guarding the fuel depot?

Page 3006

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And that day that you arrived at the fuel depot, did some other

3 soldiers --

4 A. Yes. When I got in -- when I got in, there were soldiers inside.

5 Q. And these were JNA soldiers?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And later that day, was the fuel depot taken over by another group

8 of soldiers?

9 A. Later, when they attacked that depot, there were different

10 soldiers. They were the White Eagles and the Serb guard. There weren't

11 any more soldiers. I don't know where they were, but they were somewhere

12 around. At any rate, they were not in our depot where we were, the

13 civilians. These guys came in and they kicked all of us out, out of the

14 depot.

15 Q. When you say they kicked you out of the depot, did they kick you

16 out of a building that you were being protected in within this JNA depot?

17 A. Yes. Out of that hangar, warehouse, depot, whatever you call it.

18 It was a hangar, I guess, for vehicles. It was something like an

19 underground thing. And then when they kicked us out, we all went out.

20 They made us all line up and put our hands up. As for the women and

21 children, they returned them into this depot and they started beating us,

22 mistreating us. They forced us to sing. They searched us. They took

23 away whatever people had: money, gold. First they made us take everything

24 out of our pockets, then they searched us. So they mistreated us there

25 for about two or three hours, beat us. They even shot some people.

Page 3007

1 Things like that. Cursed us.

2 Q. How many people did they shoot?

3 A. I know the names of two of them, but they killed about five or six

4 or seven people, I believe. But I only know two. They were from a

5 village there. I did not know everybody who was there.

6 Q. And how were these people selected for the shooting?

7 A. An officer came and he pulled out some piece of paper, and then he

8 started calling out names. And then, when he would call out various

9 names, and then when he would ask, "Who is that to you?" And if this

10 person would say it was his son, then he would make him lie on the ground

11 immediately, on his stomach. When he would order that, when he finished

12 this roll-call, then they got these people up and then they took us about

13 10 metres away from us and they executed them. They shot them.

14 Q. After these people were shot, did you notice whether they in fact

15 had been killed?

16 A. No, I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't see that. All of them

17 lay there. I couldn't notice, and we didn't dare look either. "Hands

18 up," and we had to look at them only. It wasn't that there was one of

19 them only. There were about 20 of them, of these White Eagles, and these

20 members of the Serb guard. Because that's what it said on their arms.

21 Q. And these White Eagles, what ethnicity were they?

22 A. Well, judging by the dialect, it seems that they were from

23 Serbia. As far as I could see by their dialect, by the way they spoke,

24 you know -- you know what dialect is. When they curse at you, when they

25 cuss at you, when they say bad things to each other, I understand by this

Page 3008

1 dialect that they were from Serbia.

2 Q. And were you yourself personally mistreated?

3 A. Yes, yes, yes. Even put a knife to my throat. And he said to me,

4 "What are you going to do if I slaughter you now?" And I just looked him

5 in the eye, nothing else, and then he turned his knife around and he put

6 it back in.

7 Q. And after this shooting, you mentioned that you were at the depot

8 for about two or three hours. Were you taken to KP Dom in Foca that day?

9 A. Yes, yes, that day, that day. That day when they finished

10 whatever they had to do, what -- I mean this mistreatment, these killings,

11 how should I know? Then he ordered us to go in front of this

12 administration building where this officer was. He ordered us all to go

13 there. He said that a bus would come and if anybody would try to run

14 away, he'd be killed on the spot. Then we waited there for a while and

15 two buses came. They put us into one bus and they were in the other bus.

16 This other bus was for them and probably for those soldiers. I didn't see

17 all of this. I just saw our bus being loaded. One stood in front -- at

18 the front door and the other one stood by the back door. So there is an

19 entrance and there is an exit, so one stood in front and the other one

20 stood in the back, and that's how we left. But we did take about two or

21 three hours to reach Foca.

22 Q. And if we can just go back a moment, what were the names of the

23 two people that you knew were killed?

24 A. Salko Sehovic and Dedovic, Dedovic.

25 Q. If you can't remember the first name, that's okay. How old was

Page 3009

1 Dedovic?

2 A. Meho, Meho, Meho Dedovic. He was an elderly man, pretty old, over

3 80, as a matter of fact.

4 Q. And Salko Sehovic, how old was he?

5 A. I don't know. I can't say. Probably my age or perhaps a few

6 years younger.

7 Q. And you mentioned that you all got on the bus, on one bus. Was

8 that all of the refugees --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- at this fuel depot, except for the ones that were killed?

11 A. Everybody, everybody, everybody.

12 Q. And on the way to the KP Dom, did you pass by a village named

13 Paunci?

14 A. A village of Paunci. It was all afire. All the houses were set

15 on fire.

16 Q. And was that a Serb or a Muslim village, do you know?

17 A. It was a Muslim village but there were two Serb houses as well --

18 no, three. Two or three Serb houses, but at the very beginning of the

19 village. I know when I went out for the week -- for weekends, I know that

20 I passed by them. There was also a servicing station for cars, for

21 repairing cars, something like that.

22 Q. And about how many houses did you see on fire in this village?

23 A. Well, how can I know? I mean, I just saw them on fire. How could

24 I know how many? Because what could I think about? I just thought, let

25 them kill me so that I don't suffer.

Page 3010

1 Q. And on the way to the KP Dom in Foca, did you stop at Velecevo

2 women's prison?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 Q. And how long did you stay there?

5 A. Well, about half an hour, perhaps. I can't say for sure but we

6 were there for about half an hour.

7 Q. And do you know why you stopped there?

8 A. I don't know.

9 Q. And then after this half an hour, you were taken to the KP Dom in

10 Foca?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom or the entrance to the KP Dom, did

13 you see anyone else there outside of the prison?

14 A. We did not. It was night-time.

15 Q. And how many soldiers were guarding you on the bus?

16 A. Two. I saw two soldiers, one in the front and one in the back.

17 Q. And were they the soldiers that took over the depot at

18 Pilipovici?

19 A. No, no. I mean, it was these White Eagles and the guard.

20 Q. And the two people on the bus -- sorry, it was two members of the

21 White Eagles that -- or the guards that were guarding you on the bus; is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes, yes, yes. That's right.

24 Q. And when you got to the KP Dom's entrance, were you handed over to

25 anyone, to any other guards or police or soldiers?

Page 3011

1 A. They made us go out. They said the men should go out. They took

2 us out, they lined us up, and the police came out of the KP Dom and took

3 us over.

4 Q. These police that came out of the KP Dom, do you remember what

5 they were wearing?

6 A. Police uniforms, and they carried batons and pistols.

7 Q. And what colour were these uniforms?

8 A. What was that?

9 Q. What colour were the uniforms?

10 A. Well, the uniforms were bluish, greenish, I mean darkish. You

11 know, like they wore before, like policemen wore before, KP Dom

12 policemen. It was the same like that previous uniform, bluish, greenish,

13 sort of a petrol colour. Well, it would be hard for me to say with 100

14 per cent certainty.

15 Q. When you say "KP Dom policemen," do you mean KP Dom guards or

16 special police attached?

17 A. Guards, guards, guards.

18 Q. How long were you kept outside the KP Dom before you went inside?

19 A. Well, I thought there were -- it was 10 or 15 minutes, 15 at the

20 most, because this policeman said, "Had they been searched?" And they

21 said yes. And then he said, "Take them in there." And that was all.

22 Q. And were the women and children taken inside as well?

23 A. I did not see. I did not see. They drove us up -- they drove

24 them up there too, but they didn't come in with us.

25 Q. And you went inside with the other men, about 20, is that right?

Page 3012












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Page 3013

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And once were you taken inside the building, what happened to

3 you?

4 A. Nothing. The policemen -- I mean, the guards took us into a

5 building, the first building there by the entrance. Then we went

6 upstairs. He opened the door. We walked in and we found lots of

7 prisoners there.

8 Q. About how many prisoners were in this place where you were bought

9 to?

10 A. There were a lot. I can't say for sure, but I think there were

11 about 100 of them, certainly; I mean, over there in that building, that

12 ground floor where they -- those ground floor rooms where they brought us.

13 Q. And was this a separate building to the building that you

14 initially went in when you first arrived?

15 A. Yes, there was a separate entrance. There was a separate

16 entrance, into the building, I mean.

17 Q. And when you went into this separate entrance, did you have to go

18 up any stairs or was the room that you were taken to on the same floor of

19 the entrance?

20 A. The building is a bit high up, higher than the entrance into the

21 KP Dom itself. There are some steps. So then when you enter the

22 building, there aren't any stairs, or at least I can't remember that there

23 were any.

24 Q. And when you went in that entrance, did you turn left or right to

25 go to this room where it was quite crowded?

Page 3014

1 A. The left.

2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can ask that P88 - it's the sketch

3 of the KP Dom - be shown to this witness.

4 Q. Witness, if you could point on that sketch, point to the building

5 or the entrance that you were taken to before you got to the room and

6 where you saw those large number of prisoners. Take your time to have a

7 look.

8 A. I'm not very knowledgeable about these drawings and things like

9 that, but I'll try to show you whatever you ask.

10 Q. If you can look at the map. Does that look familiar to you in

11 relation to the layout of the KP Dom?

12 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "map," do you mean the sketch or is he

13 also meant to be looking at the plan, Exhibit 6?

14 A. It does look like it. It does look like it. Sketch, I'm not very

15 good at that kind of thing. I'm not very good at that kind of thing. But

16 if I'm not 100 per cent sure, I'll tell you. This is the entrance, here.

17 You walk by this building, this is where the entrance is, and then you go

18 here, and then -- and then you enter this building here, here.

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --

20 A. You turn to the left.

21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he indicates the entrance to building A

22 and had the pointer moving towards the left on the ground floor. I did

23 mean sketch, not map, and he's unfamiliar with the map, so that's why

24 we're using the sketch, Your Honour.

25 Q. And as you entered the entrance, you didn't go up any stairs; is

Page 3015

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes. Well, we came in front of the building, yes. But then when

3 we entered the building, no, no. I can't remember, perhaps, but there

4 weren't any stairs. Perhaps there were about two stairs, one or two, but

5 I can't remember. Because until then, I had never, ever in my life

6 entered that KP Dom.

7 MR. SMITH: Thank you. Thank you, Witness.

8 For the record, Your Honour, I believe the witness is referring to

9 Room 11 on the plan 6/2A.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm glad you think so, or you believe so. It's

11 anything but clear, if I may say so. I don't suppose we need worry unless

12 there's some real issue taken about it.


14 Q. And the people that were in this room, were they Muslims, that you

15 were taken to?

16 A. All were Muslims.

17 Q. How long did you spend in this room?

18 A. I spent two nights in that building.

19 Q. In this room were most people sleeping on the floor or on beds?

20 A. Well, I slept on the floor, but there were a lot on tables, on the

21 floor. I don't know. Those who came in first managed to get a hold of

22 the beds and then there weren't any beds left, so those who came later

23 slept on the floor or on tables. There were also some benches, so they

24 could sleep there too. But then we slept between the beds. That's where

25 we slept, depending on where each person found some room.

Page 3016

1 Q. And whilst you were in these two rooms - sorry - whilst you were

2 in this room over these two nights, did any people from outside of the KP

3 Dom come and question you about the conditions that you were living in?

4 A. No, nobody. Actually, two women came. Two women came when I

5 spent those two nights in that room. On the next day, two women came, and

6 one looked like some kind of a translator or something. You could see

7 this red cross. There was a red cross on their uniforms. And they asked,

8 "Is this the way you sleep?" And some people said, "Yes, that's where we

9 sleep, down here." A policeman brought them in, a guard, that is, and

10 then she told the policeman that he had to go out. And then he answered

11 back. He said, "You go out," and they had to go out and he went with

12 them.

13 Q. And how long were they there for asking about the conditions

14 before they were told to leave?

15 A. Well, they were there for five minutes, not even that long. Five

16 minutes.

17 Q. And after you were in this room for a couple of nights, were you

18 moved to another room?

19 A. Yes. The next day a guard came and transferred all of us, all of

20 us who had come from Pilipovici - and I don't know who else was

21 there - transferred us all to this other building right next to this one.

22 The same kind of room. The rooms that we were transferred to were just

23 like the rooms that we had been in.

24 MR. SMITH: And if P88 could be put in front of the witness again,

25 please.

Page 3017

1 Q. Witness, can you just point with the pointer on the entrance that

2 you went into to get to the second --

3 A. From this building, we went to -- from that building we went to

4 this building here, here.

5 Q. Witness, if you could place the pointer on the entrance that you

6 went into, into that second building, on the sketch.

7 A. Well, I'm not really good at this. If I were there, I could show

8 you easily. But we came to this building. We moved to this building.

9 Now, is it this one? But it was the adjacent building. It was -- they

10 were right next to one another. We just came from this one and we walked

11 in a straight line and came to another building like this one.

12 Q. Did you go to the building that is marked B, the entrance to the

13 building marked B? If you can look at the sketch.

14 A. I could not say that, because I never gave it a thought, the

15 number of the building or anything, never paid any attention to things

16 like that, never. Whether it's B or C or D, never paid any attention, and

17 I really couldn't say.

18 Q. This second building that you went into, once you went into the

19 entrance of that building, was the room that you went into on the same

20 floor or on a higher floor than the entrance?

21 A. Again, a ground-floor room, a ground-floor room. As soon as you

22 enter the building, just as you enter the building, to the left, that's

23 it.

24 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

25 We're finished with the map. Thank you. Sketch.

Page 3018

1 Q. When you were taken into this room, were there any other detainees

2 in that room when you arrived, other than the group you arrived with?

3 A. I suppose so. There must have been other detainees. Must have

4 been, because less than 55 of us moved house; and yes, we were 55 at the

5 time of the roll-call that evening.

6 Q. And just to be clear, the group that you left -- that you left

7 with from the first room, was that the group of 20 that you arrived with

8 at the KP Dom, approximately 20?

9 A. Well, yes. You could say that practically almost all of those

10 from Pilipovici who arrived with me, yes, they almost all of them came to

11 that building.

12 Q. And the total number, including this group, that you arrived with

13 was 55 in the second room; is that right?

14 A. Yes, in the evening, when they lined us up and then roll-called

15 us, each one of us.

16 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the group in this room, of 55?

17 A. Muslims, all of them.

18 Q. And about how long did you stay in this second room?

19 A. Ten, 15 days I was there, thereabouts. I'm not sure, but

20 thereabouts.

21 Q. And you were released from the KP Dom after this?

22 A. Yes. I was taken for interrogation to the investigator, and I was

23 at the investigator's. And after two days, that is on the third day, I

24 was released.

25 Q. And who interrogated you at the KP Dom?

Page 3019

1 A. I've never -- I never saw that man whilst a civilian but the

2 detainees -- detainees told me that he was now -- what was it, Koprivica,

3 that was Koprivica, nice young man, quite young, but I never knew him

4 until that day. I never set my eyes on him. I don't know his first

5 name. The last name is Koprivica. And they said -- and I was told that

6 he was Koprivica. I didn't know him and he also said so when

7 interrogating me. He gave me his full name but I just didn't remember his

8 first name.

9 Q. And what questions were you asked by him?

10 A. When I entered, it was, "Good morning" -- "Good day," "Good day."

11 "Want to smoke?" "No, I don't smoke, thank you." "First name, last

12 name." And then he asked me, "Where is your weapon?" "Father's name."

13 He says, "Where is your weapon? What party were you a member of?"

14 "None." "Where is your weapon?" "Never had weapons in my life."

15 And so he went on for a while, and when I said Juso Taranin, then

16 he asked me, "And what is Mensa Taranin to you?" I said she was my

17 daughter. And then he changed his opinion about me and stopped provoking

18 me. He picked up the typewriter and wrote and said, "Is this okay?" "It

19 is." "Sign it."

20 Q. And did you sign it?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. And did you ask him for help to get you out of the KP Dom?

23 A. No, no, I didn't. All he said was, "Well, if I can help you, I

24 will."

25 Q. And where were you interrogated? Which building?

Page 3020

1 A. That building that I went in when I was brought there. From the

2 yard, I went into it and then up those stairs, and I started upstream, the

3 Drina by passage, and I reached an office. And I had a guard because a

4 guard was with me all the time. And he came to the penitentiary, called

5 out my name, took me with him, and I followed him, and took me in front of

6 the office, and he told me to stand there and wait there, and he waited

7 too. And when this man came out, Koprivica, then I went into his office,

8 and the guard left.

9 Q. And did the guard take you back to your room after the

10 interrogation?

11 A. Yes, yes, he did. When I -- when my interrogation was over, the

12 guard came again and took me back to the same room.

13 Q. And what colour uniform was the guard wearing?

14 A. Like all the guards, they all had the same kind of uniforms. Like

15 the first -- like all the uniforms, they were not different uniforms, the

16 guards.

17 Q. What colour?

18 A. Oh, it was greenish-blue, something like that flag over there,

19 looks like it.

20 JUDGE HUNT: This is the United Nations flag, is it?

21 MR. SMITH: Can't see the green.

22 A. No, no, no. I mean the colour. The colour I mean. Looked like

23 it. Perhaps a bit lighter or perhaps darker. I'm not really good at

24 colours.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps for all our memories, the record should

Page 3021

1 record that it is the usual United Nations sky-blue flag.

2 MR. SMITH: Thank you.

3 Q. Were other detainees interrogated like yourself whilst you were at

4 the KP Dom?

5 A. Yes, yes. Except I don't know if it was Koprivica. I did not see

6 who interrogated them, nor did we talk much about who interrogated you.

7 Q. About how many people from your room were taken for interrogation

8 every day, if it happened every day?

9 A. No, not every day. Not in my room. In my room, no, it didn't

10 happen every day. Two or three per day, now and then.

11 Q. When you say "two or three per day," is that two or three from the

12 whole detention centre, taken for interview, for interrogation, as far as

13 you knew?

14 A. I don't know, I don't know. I did not see other rooms. I could

15 see only who went from my room. Couldn't see anything outside.

16 Q. So you're saying that about two or three would be taken from your

17 room on certain days but not every day?

18 A. No, no, no, not every day, no.

19 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, did you see any detainees with

20 recent injuries on them?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. And if you can think carefully, for the time that you were there,

23 about how many people did you see with recent injuries?

24 A. I saw some three or four men.

25 Q. Do you know the names of any of these men?

Page 3022












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3023

1 A. I do know, yes. I know one. Rahman Taib.

2 Q. Rahman Taib?

3 A. Yes, Rahman Taib.

4 Q. What injuries did he have?

5 A. Oh, he had horrible injuries on his face and head and back, and we

6 used some damp, some wet rags to put on him. I don't know if he survived,

7 I don't know. But I was there. I wondered if he would live, but he was

8 still alive when I left.

9 Q. Can you describe what the injuries looked like?

10 A. He was all black. His eyes were all swollen.

11 Q. From his injuries, could you tell how he was injured?

12 A. Beating, blows with rifles, I mean rifle butts, batons, boots,

13 what do I know? On the back, we took -- we took his clothes off him and

14 then put wet rags on his back.

15 Q. Did he tell you or anyone else how he received those injuries?

16 A. No, no, no, no, no, did not say anything. He did -- no, nobody

17 talked. We were afraid that perhaps one of us might be a snitch, so

18 nobody talked.

19 Q. And do you know where he received those injuries, either inside or

20 outside the KP Dom?

21 A. I don't know. I don't know where.

22 Q. When you first saw him at the KP Dom, did he have the injuries or

23 did he not have them?

24 A. He did not have them. He did not have the injuries when I saw him

25 first in the KP Dom, the first time.

Page 3024

1 Q. And which room did you see him in? Was it the first room or the

2 second room?

3 A. The second room.

4 Q. And how long after the first time when you saw him with no

5 injuries did you see him the next time with injuries?

6 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. Two, three days before that.

7 Q. Was any medical treatment offered to him by the guards, as far as

8 you know?

9 A. Never. A guard never entered except when they wanted to take us

10 for breakfast or lunch or dinner. The guard never entered. And in the

11 evenings when they roll-called us.

12 Q. And apart from the treatment that other detainees from your room

13 were giving Mr. Rahman, was any other treatment given to him whilst you

14 were at the KP Dom, medical treatment?

15 A. No, nothing. Nobody entered while I was there. After that, I

16 don't know.

17 Q. Now, you mentioned that you saw about three or four people with

18 recent injuries. Can you describe any of the injuries on the other people

19 that you saw, these other two or three?

20 A. I know that one had his arm broken, and another one or two of them

21 were badly beaten, not like Rahman, but they were all -- but they had been

22 beaten, and that one had his arm broken and he always held it like that.

23 Q. Do you know the name of the person that had his arm broken?

24 A. I don't. I don't. I don't.

25 Q. And when you first saw him --

Page 3025

1 A. And even had I known it, I would have forgotten it by now.

2 Q. And when you first saw him at the KP Dom, was the arm broken or

3 was it normal?

4 A. Well, I did not see him before when his arm wasn't broken, but

5 what happened when he came, it was broken.

6 Q. Do you know how he received this broken arm?

7 A. No, I don't know how it happened. I simply could see that he

8 could not use it, that it was just like that. He could not use it. He

9 couldn't do anything with it. And he said that this bone here had been

10 broken.

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicated the left forearm

12 and placed it across the front of his body.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


15 Q. Do you know whether he received this broken arm before he arrived

16 at the KP Dom or whilst he was there?

17 A. No, it wasn't broken before, when he arrived, when he went there

18 for interrogation or wherever. I don't know. You just don't know. I

19 mean, your name is called out and -- I don't know where he was, whether he

20 was -- he had been to interrogation or what. I don't know. All you see:

21 He's just brought into the room, called out, goes out of the room, and

22 that's it.

23 Q. And how do you know it wasn't broken before he arrived at the KP

24 Dom?

25 A. Because I was in the room with him.

Page 3026

1 Q. Was any treatment given to him by the authorities at the KP Dom?

2 A. No. No. No, not while I was there.

3 Q. Did he do anything for his injury or did other detainees try and

4 give some treatment for the injuries? Do you know?

5 A. Well, he tore his shirt and wrapped it around and held his arm

6 like this.

7 Q. Was the skin broken on the arm or was it --

8 A. No. No. I didn't come close to look. No, I didn't. I didn't

9 come close at all. It was those young -- those who knew better, what and

10 how to do, it's they who did it. I didn't come close. And he slept in

11 the other corner of the room.

12 Q. Did you notice a man whilst you were at the KP Dom with a badly

13 injured head?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know that person's name?

16 A. I don't. I don't.

17 Q. Can you describe the injury to his head?

18 A. Well, you know, he was struck here on the head, and this blood

19 that was there, it was never washed off; it was never cleaned. I saw him

20 in the room. Later on, others, I mean detainees, cleaned it and put some

21 cloth over it to stop bleeding.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the right rear of

23 his head and the right side of his face with his right hand.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


Page 3027

1 Q. Did he say how he received that injury?

2 A. No. No.

3 Q. When you first saw this man at the KP Dom, did he have the injury

4 or not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. He did not have the injury when you first saw him?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. And you mentioned that there were another two or so detainees that

9 you saw were beaten, but not as badly as Taib Rahman.

10 A. No, they didn't. Yes, this one with his broken arm, but nobody

11 was beaten like Rahman.

12 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom - I'll only ask a few questions on

13 this, Your Honour - but did you get enough food to eat?

14 A. The food was horrible. I don't know how those people who were

15 there longer managed it. I wasn't there long, but if the food was that

16 bad all the time, I doubt if I would survive.

17 Q. Did you lose weight whilst you were there?

18 A. I did. Yes, I did lose some weight. I did.

19 Q. Did you receive enough food whilst you were there? You stated

20 that it was horrible, but did you receive enough?

21 A. You get a cup of tea in the morning; at noon you get a small pot

22 like this, you get some pasta or some potatoes or perhaps rice; and tea in

23 the evening, and a slice of bread, one bite.

24 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicated with his hands a

25 cup-size area when he was describing the amount of food.

Page 3028

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


3 Q. Did you know who the warden of the KP Dom was whilst you were

4 there?

5 A. I did not. I didn't.

6 Q. Were you informed by other detainees who the warden of the KP Dom

7 was whilst you were there?

8 A. They did.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that he did not know

12 who was the warden while he was there, and the next question is whether

13 other prisoners told you that. And the witness said that he did not know

14 while he was there.

15 JUDGE HUNT: He said that he did not know whilst he was there.

16 Now, it depends, I suppose, what the meaning of the word "know" is. But

17 he's then asked, "Were you informed by anybody else?" What's the

18 problem? He's actually answered it.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is what I'm

20 saying, that he did not know, and my interpretation of this is that he was

21 not informed, that he had no knowledge about the identity of the warden,

22 if he says that he didn't know.

23 JUDGE HUNT: That may be your interpretation, but the Prosecution

24 is not bound by your interpretation. That's what I said. It depends upon

25 the word "know." He's already answered it, and if this question was not

Page 3029

1 pursued any further, we would be left with a contradiction on the record.

2 That would be a nonsense, if I may say so.

3 You proceed, Mr. Smith.

4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Did you have personal knowledge of who the warden was whilst you

6 were at the KP Dom?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Could he be asked: Did he see anybody or something?

8 This is what the difference is, is it not? You are relying upon the word

9 "know" as having from his own perceptions known. Well, why don't you ask

10 questions which are directed to that, and then we can go into the hearsay

11 part of it.


13 Q. Did you see the warden whilst you were at the KP Dom?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Were you told by other detainees who the warden was whilst you

16 were at the KP Dom?

17 A. They spoke about it. They said they knew who that was. I didn't.

18 Q. Did they tell you who the warden was or not?

19 A. They said it was some Kunarac, I don't know. I didn't see him. I

20 didn't know. And I don't know that man. I don't know him at all.

21 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest to you, Mr. Smith, that now that the

22 hearsay evidence is in, it is of so little weight that we should not waste

23 any further time on it?

24 MR. SMITH: I agree, Your Honour. And it is time.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, we will adjourn now until 11.30.

Page 3030

1 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

4 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Witness, you mentioned after about 10 or 15 days after you arrived

6 in the second room at the KP Dom you were released; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who was the first to tell you that you would be released?

9 A. Nobody told me. When the guard took me out -- I mean, when I came

10 to where they were in the guards' hut at the entrance, Slavko Koroman - he

11 was a guard, policeman, whatever - he said that I was free to go, that I

12 was released, whatever, because I knew him from before, in the civilian

13 days.

14 Q. And did Slavko Koroman used to work at the KP Dom before the war?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he appears at number 32 on Exhibit P3,

17 which is the list of the guards.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


20 Q. And what did he tell you?

21 A. He just said that I was free to go. And I said to him, "Where

22 should I go?" Because the entire town was in flames, so to speak. There

23 was shooting. And also when I went out, I saw some other prisoners whom I

24 knew from before. I saw them standing there in front of the building, and

25 then we went through town together, and I came to my apartment.

Page 3031

1 Q. Did he give you a certificate when you left the KP Dom, confirming

2 your stay there?

3 A. Yes, yes. He gave me a certificate, and I gave it to you. You've

4 got it.

5 MR. SMITH: With the help of the usher.

6 Q. If you can look at the certificate now.

7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this is a copy of the certificate on

8 Prosecution identification number 94 -- sorry. In fact, it's the original

9 certificate but you have it as number 94 and 94A. We have provided some

10 extra copies to the Registry -- I mean not the Registry --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Assuming that it goes into evidence, does it have to

12 be under seal? Because it doesn't seem to reveal anything other than his

13 name.

14 MR. SMITH: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to the tender of this,

16 Mr. Bakrac?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. No.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, the original of this document will be exhibit

19 P94 and the English translation will be P94A.

20 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. On that release paper, it states that you had to report to the

22 police station every day, the Serbian -- the police station of the Serbian

23 Foca municipality. Did you do that?

24 A. Yes, every day, every day. I reported to the police in the

25 morning, every day, because Slavko told me that I had to report to the

Page 3032












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3033

1 police every day, and it says so here too. And when I would come to the

2 police, I would have to tell them the number, 15.

3 Q. Now, that certificate has the date that you were kept at the KP

4 Dom as the 18th of April until the 3rd of May, 1992. Do you know whether

5 those dates are correct?

6 A. No, no, no. They are not correct. I'm not sure, actually.

7 Q. Also on that --

8 A. And I really wouldn't know the dates, to tell you the truth.

9 Q. And do you recognise any signatures on that confirmation

10 document?

11 A. I don't really recognise it, but in my opinion, it seems to me

12 that this last signature here is Koroman's, that Koroman. I'm not sure.

13 That is just what I think. Because I'm not that literate. I can't tell

14 signatures apart very well.

15 Q. Which signature are you referring to? Is that number 3,

16 underneath the authorised employees of the Serbian Foca Police Station?

17 A. Number 3, signature number 3. I mean, I'm not sure, and I can't

18 say for sure that it is his signature, but I guess it is.

19 Q. And you guess it's the signature of Mr. Koroman, is that right, or

20 is it someone else?

21 JUDGE HUNT: Is it really worth pursuing this, Mr. Smith?

22 A. Koprivica, Koprivica. No.

23 JUDGE HUNT: I mean, what's the weight of it? He's illiterate and

24 he can only say he's guessing. Now, what's the weight of that?

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, with all due respect, I think he said

Page 3034

1 slightly more than guessing, but --

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but if you read his evidence as a whole, you'll

3 see that he's really guessing. Do you think we could move on to something

4 that he can give evidence about?

5 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Right.


8 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever told why you were

9 detained there?

10 A. No, never. No, no one ever told me.

11 Q. You said you went back to your apartment. About how long did you

12 stay in the town of Foca at your apartment? For about how many months?

13 A. Well, I stayed from the day of my release until the 4th of July.

14 Q. And did you stay with your wife during this time in your

15 apartment?

16 A. Yes, with my wife.

17 Q. Now, you mentioned that you reported to the police station daily.

18 Who in particular did you report to? Was there any individual that you

19 had to report to?

20 A. The duty policeman, the town policeman on duty.

21 Q. And what did you have to do when you reported? Was it sign a card

22 or was there something more involved than that?

23 A. Nothing. I just had to tell him number 15.

24 Q. So your reporting at the police station was only for a very short

25 moment every day; is that right?

Page 3035

1 A. As soon as I'd walk in and say "number 15," I could leave

2 immediately.

3 Q. Were other people obliged to report to the police station?

4 A. Yes. Those who were released from the KP Dom had to report, all

5 of them, because those who came to the police station told me, in front of

6 the police station, that they were coming the same way that I was.

7 Q. And about how many other people did you know were required to

8 report to the police?

9 A. We came from various parts of town, so I can't really tell you how

10 many. Everybody tried to leave before there were many soldiers and

11 policemen in town. You wanted to go there and to come back as soon as

12 possible, as quickly as possible, so you couldn't really see very much.

13 The policemen -- a policeman, if he would see me, would always ask me why

14 I was going out, because Muslims were forbidden to go out. And then I

15 would show him this certificate and then he would always tell me, "The

16 faster you go, the better for you." And also he would tell me, "Take the

17 same route you took on your way out. Go back the same way."

18 Q. And what ethnicity were the police at this police station?

19 A. All of them Serbs.

20 Q. And the other people that were required to report to the police

21 station that you knew, what ethnicity were they?

22 A. The ones I know were Muslims, and those who I don't know, I don't

23 know.

24 Q. Do you know of any Serb men that were required to report to the

25 police station during this time?

Page 3036

1 A. I don't.

2 Q. You said that as you were going to the police station or coming

3 back, a policeman once said to you that Muslims were forbidden to go out.

4 Had you heard that before, before that policeman said that to you?

5 A. I heard that before through this loudspeaker that was taken round

6 town on a car, where it said that Muslims were forbidden from going about

7 town and whoever would be caught would be punished severely. That was

8 repeated several times for several days.

9 Q. And who did that car belong to? Did it have any markings on it?

10 Who was actually making these announcements?

11 A. I don't know who was in the car. There was a man, though. But

12 the car belonged to the Foca radio station, if you look at it.

13 Q. Did you hear these announcements of Muslims not being able to

14 leave their house on the radio as well or not?

15 A. I heard it on the radio too, but this loudspeaker was separate

16 from that, because on the radio you could hear things only at a given

17 point in time. You would turn on the radio and you would hear certain

18 things at a certain time but -- in your apartment, but then this

19 loudspeaker you could hear it all over town.

20 Q. And do you know who was making these announcements on the radio?

21 Any particular individual?

22 A. I don't know. I don't know.

23 Q. And when did you first start to hear that Muslims were not able to

24 leave their houses? When did you first hear this car or these radio

25 messages?

Page 3037

1 A. When I got out of the KP Dom, we were allowed to move about for a

2 few days, four or five days, and then when this loudspeaker came up, and

3 also all of this that was heard on the radio, that was it. Whoever would

4 go out would be liquidated overnight.

5 Q. Did you hear that message that whoever would go out would be

6 liquidated overnight over the radio or from the car or is that your

7 assumption?

8 A. The radio station. I heard them say that whoever is caught going

9 out will be punished most severely.

10 Q. And was that being referred to -- were they referring to Muslims

11 and Serbs or just one of the groups?

12 A. Over the radio, it said the Muslims only.

13 Q. And the Muslims that you knew that were in Foca at that time, were

14 they abiding by this order?

15 A. As far as I'm concerned, I abided by that, but I cannot guarantee

16 whether the others did or not.

17 Q. And was your apartment searched during this period, after your

18 release from KP Dom?

19 A. Yes, twice, the military police.

20 Q. And what was the reason for them searching your apartment?

21 A. They were searching for a radio transmitter.

22 Q. And was there one there?

23 A. Well, I didn't really know what that was, frankly speaking.

24 Q. Do you know whether other Muslim apartments were searched during

25 this period?

Page 3038

1 A. On my floor, there was a Muslim, and, yes, his apartment was

2 searched too.

3 Q. And what about Serb apartments? Were Serb apartments in your

4 building searched; do you know?

5 A. No.

6 Q. How did you get food during this time? Before you left Foca and

7 after you left the KP Dom?

8 A. Well, there was war and there was this inflation, and then for a

9 certain period of time, some of my Serb neighbours brought me things.

10 They offered things to me, and that's how we managed to survive. We

11 cooked in the apartment, and we saved up so that we could eat.

12 Q. And the food that you had during this period, was it different, in

13 terms of quality and quantity, to the food that you received at the KP

14 Dom?

15 A. Well, it was different but, you know, it was far better. You

16 know, you could buy things if you had the money to do so, if you would

17 give money to, say, a Serb kid, a child, who would go out, then he could

18 get things for you at the shop.

19 Q. During this period that you were in Foca, how were you treated

20 once you were released from the KP Dom?

21 A. Well, as far as the building is concerned, there were some leaders

22 there in the building, so nobody -- I mean, they didn't come to see me

23 lately but they didn't treat me badly.

24 Q. Were the Muslims that were living in the apartment building before

25 the war, were they still living there when you were released?

Page 3039

1 A. No, no, no. Very few of them. Three or four families were there

2 in that entire building altogether.

3 Q. Do you know where the other families had gone?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Were the Serb families that were there before the war, were they

6 in the building when you were released from the KP Dom?

7 A. Yes, yes. They were all in the building.

8 Q. Were threats made to people of Muslim ethnicity to leave Foca

9 after you were released from the KP Dom?

10 A. Well, that there would be buses and that we'd have to leave.

11 That's what a Serb told me. A Serb told me not to tell anyone, though,

12 that there would be buses, but that I shouldn't tell anyone, that my wife

13 should go and get a certificate and that we should go to Montenegro.

14 Q. And did your wife -- did your wife get a certificate?

15 A. Yes, yes. She went to the police and they gave her this

16 certificate.

17 Q. And what did the certificate say?

18 A. I can't tell, really. I don't know. I didn't keep it. I mean,

19 just for as long as I got out.

20 Q. And where did she get the certificate from?

21 A. From the SUP.

22 Q. Is that the police station where you reported?

23 A. Well, you know, my wife went, and I think there was some kind of a

24 special point where these certificates were given. But at any rate, they

25 were issued by officials who worked at the police.

Page 3040

1 Q. You mentioned that Muslims from your apartment building had left

2 when you were released from the KP Dom. Were Muslims from other parts of

3 the town leaving as well? Do you know?

4 A. Well, probably. Probably, yes, but I could not know that much.

5 Q. I think you mentioned that you left Foca on the 4th of July, 1992;

6 is that right?

7 A. Yes. Yes, I think so. Yes, for sure. We came on the 3rd and we

8 left on the 4th. We could not actually leave on the 3rd, because there

9 were no buses.

10 Q. And where did you go to leave? Was it the bus station?

11 A. There was a bus station.

12 Q. And were there other people trying to leave Foca at that time, on

13 the 3rd of July?

14 A. I think there were about a thousand of us there, and about 530 or

15 something like that, about 530 of us got onto these four buses.

16 Q. And these thousand, were they Muslims people or were they people

17 of mixed ethnicity?

18 A. Primarily Muslims. Only the town police was at the bridge by the

19 station, and also over there by the department store. These soldiers were

20 passing by us. They were shooting above us, cursing at us, things like

21 that.

22 Q. And these soldiers, do you know which unit they came from?

23 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know where from.

24 Q. Do you know whether they were Muslim or Serb soldiers?

25 A. Serb soldiers.

Page 3041

1 Q. And then you travelled and you left Foca on the 4th of July, 1992,

2 and you travelled to another country; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, we did, to Montenegro, and then through Montenegro to Serbia,

4 and from Serbia to Macedonia.

5 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. May I introduce myself. I am Miroslav Vasic and I'm one of the

12 counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac. I'd like to ask you first,

13 because we speak the same language, to make the job easier slightly for

14 the interpreters, so will you please pause after you hear my question so

15 as to avoid us speaking on top of each other. Thank you.

16 Today you answered my learned friend in response to his question,

17 and you spoke about the events in Pilipovici in 1992 and you said that

18 people had sought shelter in the army depot which was there. Could you

19 tell us if those were local people from Pilipovici there?

20 A. No, not all of them were from Pilipovici.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. They were people from Pilipovici and they were also people from

23 Foca, from the town.

24 Q. You also spoke about how White Eagles had come and taken you out

25 of the hangar and that on that occasion Mr. Salko Sehovic and Mr. Meho

Page 3042












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 3043

1 Dedovic were killed. Could you tell me, if you know, why they were

2 killed?

3 A. I don't.

4 Q. You also mentioned that the members of that unit which had come

5 read out from some lists. What was on those lists? Do you know?

6 A. I don't know. Yes, they did read names of some people, but I

7 don't know why.

8 Q. Did you, in your statement to the OTP, say that you thought that

9 those lists contained the members of the SDA? Will you just wait for the

10 interpretation to end, please.

11 A. Yes.

12 THE INTERPRETER: And the witness said "probably."

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. And persons who were killed, were they related in some way or the

15 other to those people who were on the lists, allegedly members of the SDA,

16 as you say?

17 A. Yes, I suppose so. Maybe their children or something. I don't

18 know.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, it is very important that you give more time to

21 the interpreters to catch up before you answer the question. Just wait a

22 little bit longer, and then the interpreters will be able to catch up.

23 It's always very difficult for them when you're both speaking the same

24 language.

25 Yes, Mr. Vasic.

Page 3044

1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps I could

2 suggest -- perhaps I -- because I can follow the interpretation in

3 English, perhaps I could tell the witness when he should answer, because

4 he does not speak English. Perhaps that will resolve the problem.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know how you propose to do that, Mr. Vasic.

6 Are you going to flag him? Let's see.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I can say, "Yes, will you go ahead."

8 Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Sir, you said that on that occasion, people who were killed had

10 been taken some ten metres away. Could you tell us in what direction?

11 Were they taken behind the hangar or -- yes, go ahead.

12 A. Right behind us. To the right from us.

13 Q. Thank you. And on that occasion, did the members of the White

14 Eagles break your eyeglasses?

15 A. Yes, they took my eyeglasses.

16 Q. Will you wait, please, for the interpretation? I will tell you

17 "go ahead" when the interpretation is over.

18 A. Yes, fine.

19 Q. Can you tell me if you have any difficulty with colours, sir?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. Go ahead.

22 A. Yes, I do have difficulties with that.

23 Q. That is, you cannot distinguish colours?

24 A. Well, I distinguish some. I know some and I don't others. It

25 depends.

Page 3045

1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me the [indiscernible] of your

2 eyeglasses?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me -- you described today your detention

5 in the KP Dom. While you were in the KP Dom, were you ill-treated

6 physically, beaten?

7 A. Yes, before I arrived in the KP Dom, not in the KP Dom.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. Today, you spoke about the prohibition of

9 movement which applied to Muslims in the town when you left the KP Dom.

10 And you also said that the policeman had told you to take the shortest way

11 back home. Can you tell me if the prohibition was introduced perhaps to

12 protect the Muslims? Was it safe for Muslims to move about the streets

13 which were full of troops and police?

14 A. Strange question, strange question, that it was for our safety.

15 To kill people and you call that safety.

16 Q. Because you said that the policeman had told to you take the

17 shortest way back because it was not safe to move about the town; that is

18 why I asked you.

19 A. Well, it depended on so that I wouldn't see what was going on.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you tell the OTP investigator, at the time when

21 you made your statement in 1995, that Colonel Kovac was the chief

22 commander of the Chetnik Crisis Centre, of the police and the army?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was he -- who was his deputy, do you know?

25 A. Simo Stanojevic.

Page 3046

1 Q. And did you see that Simo Stanojevic was the commander of the

2 Territorial Defence of Foca before the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Are you familiar with the name Sulejman Pilav?

5 A. I've heard it, but I don't really know the man.

6 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Sulejman Pilav was in the Territorial

7 Defence?

8 A. I don't.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us today that when you came to the KP

10 Dom, you noticed guards wearing the same uniforms as the guards before the

11 war. After that, you said that you had never been to the KP Dom before

12 the war. Can you then explain how do you know what kind of uniforms did

13 the guards in the KP Dom have before the war?

14 A. You know how?

15 Q. Will you please wait until the interpretation is finished? Yes.

16 Go ahead.

17 A. You know how I know? Because before the war, the guards bought

18 their uniforms like now during the war, and I knew it because they came up

19 there where I worked. That is, the detainees from the KP Dom came to work

20 there, and guards were escorting them, so I could see the difference

21 between the town police and the guards, because there was a slight

22 difference in their uniforms.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us today about your arrival in the KP

24 Dom, how you arrived there in a bus escorted by soldiers who had brought

25 you from Pilipovici and how they turned you over to the guards in the KP

Page 3047

1 Dom. And you said that a guard asked, "Have they been searched?" And

2 then you said that somebody said, "Take them in." Can you tell us who was

3 it that said that?

4 A. That soldier who had brought us.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. During your detention in KP Dom, did you see any

6 soldiers in the compound or around the buildings?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You spoke about Mr. Taib Rahman today and you told us how you knew

9 that he had been injured because he was in your room. Could you tell me,

10 when was he taken out?

11 A. I can't, because --

12 Q. Can you tell us when was he brought back to your room?

13 A. Well, that same day, the day that they took him out, that same day

14 they brought him back.

15 Q. But did you see him being taken away and coming back?

16 A. I did, because the guard entered, called out his name, took him

17 out, and the guard brought him back.

18 Q. Do you know which guard was that?

19 A. I don't.

20 Q. You spoke about a detainee with an injury to his head. Could you

21 tell us, where did you see that detainee?

22 A. In the room, in my room, in the room that I was in.

23 Q. And what was his name? Can you tell us that?

24 A. No, I can't tell you that. I've forgotten his name. I did know

25 what his name was. It was a long time ago.

Page 3048

1 Q. Thank you. You spoke today about how you listened to the radio

2 and that, among other things, you heard on the radio that the Muslims

3 could not move about. Could you tell us if you also heard whether there

4 was a curfew in Foca at the time, for all townsmen, in the evening?

5 A. No, I didn't. Only Muslims were prohibited to go out. The radio

6 station explicitly said Muslims are prohibited.

7 Q. Thank you. You said today that flats owned by people of Serb

8 origin in your building had not been searched. Before that you told us

9 that you only went out to report to the police. Could you then explain it

10 to us how is it that you know that those flats were not searched?

11 A. Because I went past them to the police every day.

12 Q. And how long would it take you to go from your flat through that

13 building and to the police and back?

14 A. Well, as long as it took me to go down -- to walk down the stairs.

15 Q. Can you tell us how long did it take you?

16 A. Well, you know, the seventh floor. You can calculate it for

17 yourself.

18 Q. And on the basis of that time that it took you to walk down and

19 walk up, you concluded on the basis of that that the Serb flats were not

20 searched, is it?

21 A. Well, of course they were not searched, because some Serbs,

22 neighbours, came to my place, and they told me, and that was what they

23 told me, that they had not been searched.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. Today when asked by my learned friend, you said

25 that you were not a member of the SDA. Is that correct, or were you a

Page 3049

1 member of the SDA?

2 A. No, I wasn't.

3 Q. Were you a supporter of the SDA?

4 A. Well, I didn't really know that much about their role either.

5 Q. And in the multiparty elections, did you vote for the SDA?

6 A. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. I don't exactly know.

7 Q. Did you tell the OTP investigator in 1995, did you tell him that

8 in the elections of 1991 you voted for the SDA?

9 A. I say, maybe I did, but I don't know. It was a long time ago. I

10 can't really say.

11 Q. I shall read to you the sentence from your statement that you gave

12 on the 4th and 5th of May, 1995, to the OTP investigator. It is ID93 and

13 ID93A, and it says, in the third line, that is, the third passage:

14 "I was not a member of any of the new political parties. In the

15 elections of 1991 I voted for the SDA."

16 Did you state this?

17 A. I suppose I did.

18 Q. Can you tell me: Since you were not an SDA member or supporter,

19 why did you then vote for the SDA in 1991?

20 A. I'd rather not answer that kind of question.

21 Q. Was it the national polarisation on both sides, amongst the Serbs

22 and the Muslims, at that time?

23 A. I'd also not answer that question either.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

25 Your Honours, the Defence has no further questions.

Page 3050

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.

2 Any re-examination?

3 MR. SMITH: Yes. Just one question, Your Honour.

4 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

5 Q. Witness, you're not wearing glasses today. Does that mean that

6 you only use glasses for reading?

7 A. That's right, yes. I have them here. But only when I have to

8 read.

9 MR. SMITH: No further questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That is the end of your evidence.

11 We are grateful to you for coming here to give that evidence. You are

12 free to leave, but would you wait a moment whilst the blinds are being

13 lowered so that you can leave without the public seeing you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. What are the protective measures for the

16 next witness?

17 MS. KUO: Your Honour, the next witness is 146 and he has a

18 pseudonym and image alteration.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym sheet will be Exhibit P428 and it will

22 be under seal.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

25 document that you are being handed, sir.

Page 3051


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Excellency,

4 Your Honours. I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

5 truth, and nothing but the truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Please sit down.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

9 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 Q. In front of you there is a sheet of paper, and that is Exhibit

12 P428. On it you will see FWS-146. Beneath that, is that your name?

13 A. It is.

14 Q. After your name, is that your birth date?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Thank you, Witness. You no longer need to refer to that piece of

17 paper. Witness, in 1992, where did you live?

18 A. We lived in Rancici, Cajnice municipality.

19 Q. Were you married and did you have children?

20 A. Married, four children.

21 Q. What kind of work did you do?

22 A. I was a worker, blue-collar, in my firm.

23 Q. And what ethnicity are you, sir?

24 A. Muslim.

25 Q. Witness, in 1992, did you have a particular medical condition that

Page 3052












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3053

1 required hospitalisation?

2 A. Yes. In 1990 I began to suffer from asthma.

3 Q. On April 1st, 1992, were you admitted to the hospital for asthma?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which hospital was that?

6 A. Internal medicine ward, Foca.

7 Q. What kind of treatment did you receive?

8 A. They treated me super, and Dr. Milena had all the medicines, and

9 that is where I was admitted and treated.

10 Q. Were you required to stay overnight in the hospital?

11 A. Yes. I stayed there, and I was treated there for six months in

12 the Foca hospital.

13 Q. At the beginning, when you were admitted to the hospital, were you

14 told that you would be there for six months' treatment?

15 A. No. The doctor said, "We shall see if the ambulance from Gorazde

16 comes. Then we shall try to send you to Gorazde."

17 Q. Let me back up a little bit there. While you were receiving

18 treatment in Foca hospital, did the war in Foca start?

19 A. After seven days, the war started in Foca.

20 Q. Did the fact that the war started have an effect on the hospital?

21 A. No. I had medicines and I was treated. I'm telling you the

22 truth.

23 Q. Did people come to the hospital to seek shelter?

24 A. Yes. When there was this aggression, when the war broke out, the

25 hospital was practically full.

Page 3054

1 Q. The people who sought shelter at the hospital, what ethnicity were

2 they?

3 A. It didn't matter. There were Serbs, there were Muslims. We were

4 all together. Somebody took a car, somebody fled from the hospital when

5 the war started.

6 Q. Did any soldiers come to the hospital?

7 A. I saw two kinds of soldiers when Foca fell.

8 Q. When did Foca fall?

9 A. Well, Foca fell -- I came on the 1st of April, so it was after

10 Bajram, around the 12th day.

11 Q. You said you saw two kinds of soldiers. What were the two kinds?

12 A. Well, in uniform, some kind of White Eagles. There were songs.

13 Then also the Foca Chetniks, and uniforms of the former JNA, and --

14 Q. Do you know what ethnicity the soldiers were?

15 A. Serbs.

16 Q. What did the soldiers do when they came to the hospital?

17 A. Nothing. They sang. They would carry a one-litre bottle of

18 brandy in their hands. They would walk around a bit and leave the

19 hospital.

20 Q. Did the soldiers take over the hospital or set up anything at the

21 hospital?

22 A. The hospital was blocked.

23 Q. What do you mean by that?

24 A. It was already taken. Basically, I wouldn't dare to move about.

25 There was shooting. Foca was on fire.

Page 3055

1 Q. I understand that you were not able to move about because there

2 was a war going on in Foca. Who was in charge of the hospital after Foca

3 fell?

4 A. I can't remember. I was sick.

5 Q. Did any soldiers set up any sort of artillery at the hospital?

6 A. I didn't see.

7 Q. Were you able to see any shooting coming from the hospital?

8 A. If I had been able to go to the terrace, I actually did go and I

9 saw that Foca was on fire, that there was shooting, and I went back to bed

10 because my health was the most important of all.

11 Q. Did you see a civilian or military truck get shot at?

12 A. Well, I just happened to go out on the terrace and I saw a kombi

13 van coming from the direction of Foca. It had set out for Gorazde. It

14 hadn't passed even a kilometre. In front of the hospital, there was a

15 machine-gun nest and they shot at the car from that nest, and I saw the

16 kombi van veer from the road, and it stopped there, and we heard moaning,

17 and then the ambulance came. There were some people who were wounded.

18 And then they were transferred to hospital. And I can't remember anything

19 else.

20 Q. Could you tell whether the people in the van were wearing military

21 uniforms or not?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No, you couldn't tell or they were not wearing uniforms?

24 A. I couldn't see. It was far away.

25 Q. Was the kombi van itself a military vehicle?

Page 3056

1 A. No, civilian. These were civilians who had set out for Gorazde,

2 practically to flee. That's what I basically heard later.

3 Q. When you said the people inside that van were taken to hospital,

4 were they brought to the Foca hospital where you were?

5 A. The Foca hospital was where I was treated, where I lay, but I was

6 at the internal medicine ward and then there was this other building where

7 they took them in.

8 Q. During the time that you were in the Foca hospital, was the entire

9 medical staff -- did the entire medical staff stay working at the

10 hospital?

11 A. Of course, the staff stayed there to work. I had medicine and my

12 treatment continued. I was still treated.

13 Q. The staff that continued to treat you, were they Serbs or

14 Muslims?

15 A. Serbs.

16 Q. Do you know what happened to the Muslim staff?

17 A. Well, cars came from Gorazde. They made phone calls, or people,

18 Muslim people, would cross the Drina on foot over the bridge, and they

19 would run away.

20 Q. My question was focused on the medical staff. Your description,

21 was that of the patients or of the medical staff, the Muslims patients or

22 the Muslim medical staff ran away?

23 A. As regards the humaneness of doctors and medical staff, they were

24 humane, they still treated us.

25 Q. Okay. Let me try to clarify this line of questioning. Witness,

Page 3057

1 you said that the staff that treated you were Serb. Right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you were first admitted to the hospital, were you treated by

4 Serb and Muslim doctors or at that time already were you treated only by

5 Serb doctors?

6 A. Please, I came to hospital on the 1st of April, 1992. I was

7 received by this lady doctor, Milena, at the internal ward where I was

8 treated.

9 Q. Do you know if there was a time when the Muslim staff and doctors

10 were arrested?

11 A. I didn't see.

12 Q. But do you know that they were taken away from the hospital?

13 A. Later I heard that there's no Muslim people, that they took some

14 from the hospital.

15 Q. What happened to the Muslim patients? You said you stayed at the

16 hospital. What happened to the other Muslim patients?

17 A. Yes. They worked for about a month or two, but then you would

18 just see all of a sudden that there were no Muslim patients and no Muslim

19 doctors in the hospital.

20 Q. How many Muslim patients were left with you?

21 A. Three.

22 Q. And you said you remained at the hospital for six months?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During those six months were any attempts made for you to leave

25 the hospital?

Page 3058

1 A. Yes. The first time we were taken practically to Trnovo in the

2 ambulance vehicle that was used for kidney treatment. The three of us

3 were taken for an exchange.

4 Q. Do you know why you weren't released at that point?

5 A. The doctor said that if I were to be exchanged, that I should be

6 taken to Sarajevo, and if we were not to be exchanged, that we should come

7 back to the Foca hospital.

8 Q. You said you were taken almost to Trnovo. Did you actually reach

9 Trnovo?

10 A. We came to Trnovo on the 27th of July, 1993.

11 Q. What caused you to turn around and go back to the Foca hospital?

12 A. We arrived in Trnovo. We got out. Another kombi van came. We

13 got into that kombi van and then we went back to Foca. We passed a

14 hundred metres and then we got into the water, into a stream.

15 Q. Did you return to the Foca hospital on that occasion?

16 A. No. We waited for orders until nightfall.

17 Q. And what happened at nightfall?

18 A. Then we got orders. They blindfolded us.

19 Q. And where did they take you?

20 A. Then they drove us for about half an hour. There was some kind of

21 a kombi van. We went out. There was some kind of headquarters, and they

22 put us into a garage.

23 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to? Were they soldiers

24 or civilians?

25 A. Soldiers. Soldiers came out and they put us up at a garage.

Page 3059

1 Q. How long did you stay in that garage?

2 A. We spent the night in the garage. In the morning we got breakfast

3 and their doctor examined us.

4 Q. And what happened then?

5 A. Then they said to us, "It's all in vain. There is shooting around

6 Sarajevo." The people who were to be exchanged didn't come, so then we

7 were returned to the Foca hospital.

8 Q. Now, Witness, you gave the date of this as the 27th July 1993. Is

9 that the right date?

10 A. The 27th of July, 1993, the exact date. It was hot. I remember

11 that.

12 Q. You were in the hospital -- are you talking about when you were

13 taken from the hospital?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were in the hospital in 1992; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So did this happen in 1992 or 1993?

18 A. Oh, 1992 - I'm so sorry - I was taken from hospital.

19 Q. Was there another time when you were taken out of the hospital but

20 returned and not released?

21 A. Yes, when we were returned from Trnovo. About a month later, a

22 nurse came and told us that we should get ready because the last buses

23 were about to leave for Skopje.

24 Q. And were you taken to Skopje?

25 A. No. Again, the telephone, and they told us that we can stay,

Page 3060

1 because the buses were full. So we remained in hospital.

2 Q. And was there another time when you were supposed to be released

3 from the hospital but were not?

4 A. We were supposed to go to Montenegro, to Prijepolje, in an

5 ambulance vehicle that's used for kidney treatment, but the papers had not

6 been prepared, so we remained in hospital again.

7 Q. Did your family know that you were in the hospital during this

8 time?

9 A. They knew that I went to Foca, because my doctor, Milan Tupesa,

10 from the company where I worked in, sent me to hospital on the 1st of

11 April, 1992.

12 Q. Do you know why you were not just released, like the other

13 patients, to go to your family?

14 A. Allegedly there was shooting, and the lady doctor said that if an

15 ambulance would come from Gorazde, then I could be transferred. However,

16 nothing came out of that.

17 Q. During the six months that you remained at Foca hospital, did you

18 hear shooting in Foca?

19 A. I did hear shooting. Foca was practically on fire. The villages

20 around Foca were on fire. There was fear, there was panic, uncertainty.

21 Q. Was there a time when Serb patients, a large group of Serb

22 soldiers, was brought to the hospital for treatment?

23 A. Six months later I saw a military man drying his uniform on the

24 terrace.

25 Q. What did that indicate to you, that he was a patient there or

Page 3061

1 what?

2 A. Nothing. He didn't ask us a thing. Of course, we thought that

3 patients were brought into hospital and that they were lying in bed like

4 the rest of us.

5 Q. In September of 1992, was there a group of about 35 Serb soldiers

6 brought to the hospital who had been injured?

7 A. When I could walk around and take a glass of juice, I saw there

8 were about 20 wounded persons. I don't know whether it was from mines or

9 because of the shooting. I don't know. I just saw wounded soldiers that

10 were being brought into hospital. I would hear sirens and there would be

11 killed and wounded persons, but I couldn't see what was happening on the

12 ground.

13 Q. You said this was at a point when you could walk around.

14 Approximately what month was that?

15 A. That was already the fourth month after I had recuperated,

16 actually, when I had been receiving drips and oxygen, and I could then

17 start moving about.

18 Q. So was it approximately September 1992?

19 A. I was in hospital, in bed, from the 1st of April until September,

20 for six months.

21 Q. What date were you finally -- were you taken away from the

22 hospital?

23 A. On the 2nd of October, 1992, after the lady doctor came to see me,

24 and a Serb soldier came in. And there were three of us.

25 Q. Who was that Serb soldier? Did you recognise him or learn his

Page 3062












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3063

1 name?

2 A. He spoke loudly. He had a beard. He followed the lady doctor

3 after she had come to examine us.

4 Q. Did you learn his name?

5 A. He said to the doctor, "Fuck you. Why you feeding balijas? If

6 you were a man, I'd kill you right now." And he grabbed his pistol.

7 Q. What did the soldier do with the pistol?

8 A. He pointed it at the lady doctor and she said, "Pero, may your

9 children be alive. I'm a doctor. And by the lives of your children,

10 these are patients, Muslims, who are very sick, and I'm a doctor and I'm

11 supposed to treat people."

12 Q. How did the soldier respond?

13 A. Then he used chairs and beat the three of us with -- and kicked us

14 too, and two of my ribs were broken and four teeth kicked out. However,

15 the doctor ran out of the room and phoned the police.

16 Q. Did the police arrive?

17 A. Police arrived. The nurse wiped the blood off us and offered --

18 and told us to get ready, as soon as possible, and to come with them.

19 Q. Where were you taken?

20 A. We got ready and started going downstairs. The two of them were

21 in front of me and I was behind them. I walked very slowly. I was in

22 pain. A Serb policeman hit me with a baton on the back. Had it not been

23 for the railing, I would have fallen.

24 Q. You said the policeman. Was this civilian police or military

25 police?

Page 3064

1 A. An ordinary policeman. Later, he kicked me all the time too, on

2 our way out, all the way to the car. When we got out, I don't know what

3 he hit me with but I know that I fell and that my nose started to bleed.

4 The medical staff were outside sitting on the bench, smoking, and they

5 screamed, "Oh, what's happening to (redacted)?"

6 Q. When you gave a statement to the Bosnian authorities in November,

7 1994, you didn't mention that the police hit or kicked you when they took

8 you out of the hospital. Can you explain why you didn't do that?

9 A. I didn't dare. I was afraid, panic-striken. There was no one to

10 tell. There was a war on. There was panic. And then these two guys got

11 into the car. They sat in the car, whereas the police opened the trunk

12 and threw me into the trunk. Had there been a longer way, a longer ride,

13 from the hospital to where they were taking me, I would have suffocated in

14 there. There was dust, some kind of chains.

15 Q. After you were released in Sarajevo, two years later, you -- did

16 you tell the authorities then about being hit by the policeman? You

17 described being hit by the soldier but did you describe that the policeman

18 had mistreated you on the way out?

19 A. No, only Pero. Not two years; two and a half years. After two

20 and a half years, I was exchanged in Sarajevo.

21 Q. Can you explain why you did not tell -- did not say at that time,

22 two and a half years later, that the policeman had hit you in addition to

23 Pero?

24 A. I didn't know the name, and I couldn't talk when I found out the

25 name, I mean about Pero, but I don't know about this other one. I don't

Page 3065

1 know the name of this man who was hitting me.

2 Q. Did you ever learn Pero's last name?

3 A. When I got out of the prison, my doctor sent me to Fojnica. I

4 went out to buy a newspaper, Dnevni Avaz, and I found a picture of this

5 Pero. I heard that he got killed. His people said in the newspapers that

6 he was a hero. Maybe you have that picture in that newspaper.

7 Q. Do you remember his last name?

8 A. Elez.

9 Q. Where did the policemen take you that day?

10 A. On that day, we were taken to the KP Dom prison from the hospital.

11 Q. Were all three of you taken, the Muslim patients who remained?

12 A. All three of us, after six months, we were taken to the Foca

13 prison, the KP Dom.

14 Q. Was your family ever notified that you had been taken from the

15 hospital to the KP Dom?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know where your family was during this time?

18 A. Caporancic [phoen], the municipality of Cajnice.

19 Q. Did you have any contact with your family while were you in the

20 hospital during those six months?

21 A. No.

22 Q. During the time that you were at KP Dom, were you allowed contact

23 with your family?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you learn later, after you were released, what your family

Page 3066

1 thought had happened to you during this time?

2 A. They thought, basically, that they'd never see me again.

3 Q. Did they think that you had died?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What happened when you arrived at KP Dom? Where were you taken?

6 A. They brought us to the gate, they handed us over to the guard.

7 The guard asked where we had been. He searched me. We had pajamas and

8 shaving kits. He took away my penknife, my pen, and registered all of

9 this, but as he was asking us -- asking us, and in front of me, there was

10 this man who was screaming because this other man was beating him, and he

11 was yelling, "Merhaba. Merhaba." I was really afraid.

12 Q. Where was this man being hit? In what part of the KP Dom?

13 A. At the entrance, at the gate, on the left-hand side, there were

14 stairs.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, when he said that this man was screaming,

16 "Merhaba," is that some identification matter that we have to concern

17 ourselves with?

18 MS. KUO: I was going to ask him what it meant.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. We have just got to get it done fairly quickly

20 so it doesn't go out in half an hour.

21 MS. KUO: Oh, no. It's not an identification matter.

22 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Thank you.

23 MS. KUO:

24 Q. Can you explain what the word you heard meant?

25 A. That is a greeting, a Muslim greeting, that we use, "Merhaba" and

Page 3067

1 "Selam Aleikum".

2 MS. KUO: Very well. It's 1.00, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. We will resume at 2.30.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.






















Page 3068

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. I'd like to return very briefly to the time when you were at the

7 Foca hospital. I asked you earlier whether there were Serb soldiers who

8 were brought to be treated at the hospital. I'd like to ask you now

9 whether there were Serb soldiers who died at the hospital, whether you

10 saw coffins or bodies of soldiers.

11 A. No, not in the hospital, but in front of the hospital there were

12 wounded and dead and coffins.

13 Q. Was there one particular incident in September 1992 when a group

14 of about 35 Serb soldiers were brought in dead or injured?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Were you later told by other detainees at KP Dom that there was a

17 group of people taken out to pick plums in September of 1992 that was in

18 retaliation for the death of a large number of Serb soldiers?

19 A. Yes, I heard about that, that they were killed. Whether it was

20 mines, I did not see, but our detainees were taken from the camp to pick

21 plums, and these people have not returned yet.

22 Q. Were you told what the relationship was between the soldiers who

23 were killed by mines and the group of detainees taken out allegedly to

24 pick plums?

25 A. I did not hear that. I was ill. I could not go out. I don't

Page 3069

1 know, and so I won't really talk about it.

2 MS. KUO: Thank you.

3 With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the witness

4 shown what has been placed in the trial binders as ID281. And for the

5 Court's reference, and Defence counsel as well, ID281 consists of three

6 separate documents. They are medical discharge forms, and the first one

7 is dated beginning 1st of April, 1992. We'll just start with that one and

8 I'll ask the witness to identify it.

9 Q. Is that the medical discharge certificate from the Foca hospital?

10 A. This is the discharge document certificate from the hospital of

11 Foca.

12 Q. And you'll notice that the date that it says you were -- you began

13 your treatment at the hospital was 1st April 1992. Is that accurate?

14 A. It is.

15 Q. And then the date where it says you were treated until, there is a

16 typewritten date and then it's crossed out and something is written over

17 it by hand. Could you tell us what that typewritten date was?

18 A. I can. This was typed in, and when we returned from Trnovo, the

19 lady doctor, when she discharged me the second time, she changed this by

20 hand, in a ballpoint.

21 Q. What was the typewritten date? If it's not clear on the copy,

22 could you please let us know?

23 A. No, it's not clear. I can't see it on the copy.

24 Q. Do you have the originals of these discharge forms?

25 A. I do.

Page 3070

1 Q. Did you bring them with you to Court today?

2 A. No. I left them in my room.

3 MS. KUO: With the Court's indulgence, I think we may have a

4 better copy in our folders.

5 A. I think you do.

6 MS. KUO: I'd ask, with the assistance of the usher, that the

7 witness be shown this copy. I think it's a little bit clearer.

8 A. Yes. This is clearer. 1st of April, 1992, 24th of April, that is

9 when I was discharged from the hospital. And when I was brought back from

10 Trnovo, I was admitted again. When I again went to the prison, the doctor

11 changed the date that -- this was not the date when I left, and she used a

12 pen to write two 7s.

13 Q. So the date, 24th of April, was that the date that you were taken

14 to Trnovo?

15 A. No. I was taken to Trnovo on the 27th of July.

16 Q. Were you taken somewhere else, then, on the 24th of April, for

17 exchange, and then brought back?

18 A. We were -- they had prepared us to go to Skopje, but we did not

19 go.

20 Q. Then the date that was handwritten in, the 7th of July, 1992, were

21 you taken away on that date?

22 A. No. On the 27th. That is when we were taken to Trnovo, on the

23 27th of July.

24 Q. So the 7 that is written in is meant to make what originally was

25 typewritten as 24 into a 27 July; is that right?

Page 3071

1 A. Yes, yes. The 27th of July, which the doctor changed by hand.

2 Q. Thank you. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to show you

3 the second document in ID281. This one. This document shows that the

4 treatment began on the 9th of July, 1992 and lasted until the 15th of

5 July. Can you tell us about those dates? Were you admitted back to the

6 hospital on the 9th of July?

7 A. I was readmitted, yes. We were two, three times brought back to

8 the hospital. We went for exchange, were brought back again, and the

9 doctor wrote the discharge certificate again.

10 Q. And finally the third part of ID281. This one shows your

11 treatment beginning on the 9th of July and lasting until the 2nd of

12 October, 1992. Is that right? And you'll see that the 2nd of October is

13 also handwritten in over something else that was typewritten originally.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you able to tell what was typewritten underneath the 2nd of

16 October?

17 A. I can't see that but the doctor did it by her own hand.

18 Q. Were you supposed to have been released before October? And that

19 was the date that was written -- that was typewritten underneath?

20 A. Must have been like that because the situation was such, the times

21 were such, and the doctor, she prepared the discharge document because I

22 could not get out. It must mean that she changed those dates by hand,

23 using a ball-point.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes that ID281, which

25 consists of three documents plus the English translations, be entered in

Page 3072












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3073

1 evidence.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P281 and 281A. And

5 it would have to go under seal, would it not?

6 MS. KUO: That's correct, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: And they will be under seal.

8 MS. KUO:

9 Q. Witness, when you were taken to KP Dom, you described before the

10 lunch break that you heard someone screaming and you started to describe

11 where that was. You said to the left of the entrance. You described that

12 there were stairs. Could you tell whether the sound was coming from

13 upstairs, downstairs, or the same floor as the entrance?

14 A. To the left from the ground floor, I heard screams and cries.

15 Q. Could you tell who was screaming or could you see?

16 A. I did not see.

17 Q. Did anybody tell you what was happening?

18 A. No.

19 Q. How did that make you feel when you came in and heard that?

20 A. Bad, illness, exhausted, and as a sick man sent to the KP Dom, to

21 prison.

22 Q. What room were you taken to in the KP Dom?

23 A. Number 15.

24 Q. Were the other two Muslim patients brought from the Foca hospital

25 with you taken to that same room?

Page 3074

1 A. To the same room. All three of us were together in Room 15. The

2 guard turned us over there.

3 Q. Could you tell us who those other patients were and what medical

4 conditions they were suffering from?

5 A. Abid Cocalic from Visegrad had a pacemaker built in, and Nezir

6 Cengic from Miljevina, the village of Rataj. They were together with me,

7 beaten, and together with me moved to the KP Dom, to the same room.

8 Q. Do you know what medical condition Nezir Cengic had?

9 A. The man came all black and blue, beaten. His face was black,

10 beaten, brought from Miljevina.

11 Q. Do you know for what reason Mr. Cengic was being treated in the

12 hospital?

13 A. Beatings.

14 Q. When you were brought to the KP Dom, could you tell us what your

15 medical condition was? Were you able to walk?

16 A. Very difficult. When I left the hospital, they gave me medicines,

17 but I felt such pains in my rib cage that I could not barely walk from the

18 reception room to my Room 15 in the KP Dom.

19 Q. For the first few months in KP Dom, were you able to go to the

20 canteen and eat with the other detainees?

21 A. Not -- four months. They asked me. I was wrapped in a sheet in a

22 corner, because I could not walk on my own two feet.

23 Q. How did you get food?

24 A. At times my detainees would bring my lunch and at times guards

25 would do it.

Page 3075

1 Q. Did you lose weight during the time you were at KP Dom?

2 A. I was 72 kilograms when I arrived and I was 57 when I left. I

3 became shorter, smaller, and thinner.

4 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment while you were at KP Dom?

5 A. We had medicines. I reported and I was given the medicines or the

6 ambulance when I could not breathe. And they said to tell the guard when

7 I needed it so that they can bring me a physician who would give me an

8 injection.

9 Q. Did the guards bring you a physician to give you an injection?

10 A. Yes. Later on Dr. Aziz Torlak and Ibro Karovic came to my room,

11 and it was -- it became easier for me; that is, when I needed it, I had

12 the injections and they gave it to me.

13 Q. You mentioned the two doctors, Dr. Torlak and Dr. Karovic came to

14 your room. Did they come as detainees or as --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did they come as detainees or as working doctors?

17 A. The same like detainees. They were also detained and they worked

18 later on as doctors, helping both peoples, treating both Serbs and

19 Muslims.

20 Q. Were they detained in Room 15 with you?

21 A. No. They arrived before me. I don't know which room. And then

22 later on there were some exchanges and then they were brought to my room.

23 Q. When they were brought to your room - that's what I want to

24 clarify - were they brought to your room to be detained there or brought

25 specifically to give you treatment?

Page 3076

1 A. Detained.

2 Q. Did anybody try -- did either of those doctors try to secure your

3 release from the KP Dom for medical reasons?

4 A. I asked for a favour as a sick man, and they wrote some messages

5 to the prison warden and the deputy warden, twice, written documents, but

6 nothing came of it.

7 Q. Do you know what they wrote in the documents?

8 A. They wrote my full name, sick man from the hospital; if there is a

9 possibility, could he be exchanged before the envisaged time so that he

10 could go to Gorazde as quickly as possible. But nothing came out of it.

11 Q. You said that these notes were addressed to the warden and the

12 deputy warden. Do you know what the names were? Were they addressed --

13 A. I do not. I was ill. They did it all.

14 Q. You said that they were addressed to the warden and deputy

15 warden. Were they addressed using those titles or were they addressed to

16 specific named individuals?

17 A. They named it. They gave it to guards, and guards took it away.

18 But nothing came out of those applications, unfortunately.

19 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac?

20 A. No. I did not leave the room. I did not work. I did not know.

21 I'm telling the truth.

22 Q. Did anybody tell you anything about him, whether he worked at KP

23 Dom, whether he had a function?

24 A. No. I heard from those detainees that there was a warden there,

25 that there was a deputy there. The name I didn't learn because I was ill,

Page 3077

1 and I have no way of knowing it.

2 Q. Did you hear the name Savo Todovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you -- let me ask you this. When you gave a statement to the

5 Office of the Prosecution in September 1998, you stated:

6 "I think that Savo Todovic was the head of KP Dom. I never met

7 him personally. I know that he had a deputy, but I forgot the name."

8 Do you remember making that statement?

9 A. I do, but that was a long time ago, and one can forget.

10 Q. Why or on what basis did you believe at that time that Savo

11 Todovic was the head of KP Dom?

12 A. Because of my applications to do something with that and to see if

13 I could be exchanged as quickly as possible, but nothing came out of it.

14 Q. Were the requests for your exchange addressed to Savo Todovic?

15 A. I think so. I think that both my applications were submitted, but

16 nothing came out of them.

17 Q. The question is specifically about Savo Todovic. Do you know

18 whether the applications were addressed to him by name?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Then on what basis did you believe, in 1998, that Savo Todovic was

21 the head of KP Dom? Did someone tell you that? Did you actually see

22 him?

23 A. I suppose so. I did not see him but I heard that name mentioned.

24 Q. Did you ever have direct dealings with Savo Todovic, or indeed

25 with the warden?

Page 3078

1 A. No.

2 Q. With whom in the prison management or authority did you have

3 dealings? Was it just the guards?

4 A. Only the guards.

5 Q. Witness, you mentioned a doctor Aziz Torlak. Do you know what

6 happened to him?

7 A. He was in my room. He was taken away from my room in February or

8 March at 11.00, and he is filed as missing to this day. He treated me

9 because, when I received the fifth penicillin, I fell into a coma and he

10 took my medical card and put -- and stamped it with his monogram. And I

11 think it is on the basis of this monogram that he was registered as

12 missing.

13 Q. You said he was taken away. Who took him away?

14 A. Policemen opened the door and said, "Dr. Torlak, get ready, you're

15 to be exchanged." The doctor left and all trace of him has been lost

16 since.

17 Q. And you gave the date as February, March. Would that be is 1993?

18 A. 1993, because it says in my health card, "Chief Doctor, Torlak,

19 Aziz Torlak, 20th of March, 1993." You can check it because you've got

20 the document.

21 Q. Witness, we don't need much details on this particular point, but

22 were you hidden? Were you part of the group that was hidden from the Red

23 Cross when they came to visit the KP Dom?

24 A. Yes. Thank you. I was in that room. The Red Cross came. They

25 took us to the bakery, yes, "Take him and hide him." And we were there

Page 3079

1 concealed from the Red Cross, and the Red Cross could not register us.

2 Q. Witness, among the people who were detained in the same room with

3 you, were there several members of the Cengic family?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know what happened to them? Were they taken out for

6 exchange?

7 A. They were. What connection it was or what was it, we only noticed

8 in the room, "Get ready, you two, to be exchanged." And Cengic and his

9 nephew left my room.

10 Q. Were they taken out as a part of a larger exchange or were they

11 exchanged in a separate exchange, do you know?

12 A. Separate exchange, smaller exchange. It went through a

13 connection.

14 Q. Do you know what the connection was or who arranged for them to be

15 exchanged?

16 A. On the basis of what we heard from -- Nezir Cengic's son was in

17 the government in Sarajevo before the war and this son went to school

18 together with Milosevic, so then this connection came into play and then

19 they were exchanged from the KP Dom immediately.

20 Q. Did any of the Cengics ever tell you that any prison staff or

21 military commanders played a role in their exchange?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When were you taken out of KP Dom for exchange?

24 A. In the month of July, from the KP Dom, we were transferred to Rudo

25 for an exchange, 22 of us.

Page 3080

1 Q. Was that July, 1993?

2 A. I think it was July, 1993.

3 Q. What were you told was the reason you were being taken to Rudo?

4 A. What was that?

5 Q. What reason were you given for being taken to Rudo?

6 A. The reason was that we were going to Rudo from the KP Dom to be

7 exchanged. We did not realise what the situation was, that there were

8 Serbs from Rudo captured in Gorazde. And then by bus we were transferred

9 from Foca to Rudo.

10 Q. How long did you stay in Rudo?

11 A. Six months in Rudo in the prison there.

12 Q. Could you compare whether -- could you compare the conditions in

13 the Rudo camp and the KP Dom?

14 A. Well, the conditions were a bit poorer. The ground floor, no

15 water, one lavatory. Five of us would have to line up and go to the

16 lavatory. Bad conditions. Ground floor.

17 Q. And what you just described, was that at Rudo?

18 A. Rudo, yes. The cultural centre, ground floor.

19 Q. When you were at the KP Dom, were you ever beaten at the KP Dom?

20 A. No. I was only beaten at the hospital in Foca. I am telling you

21 the truth. I was not beaten anywhere else. Three prisons, two hospitals,

22 in two and a half years. There was only fear, illness. I suffered.

23 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, did the detainees there tell you

24 about beatings that had occurred before you arrived?

25 A. Well, they did say that at first there were beatings and that

Page 3081

1 there were people taken away. And when we came, we were told that we

2 would not be taken out and not beaten. However, there was this wild

3 exchange in my case. People were being taken out but they were not

4 registered.

5 Q. You said you were told that you would not be beaten or exchanged.

6 Who told you that?

7 A. The guard said so. Those requests of mine, the letters I wrote,

8 he said, "(redacted), nothing doing, nothing will come out of that." And

9 that's the way it was.

10 Q. Did anybody assure you that you would not be beaten? Did anybody

11 in authority say you would not be beaten?

12 A. No. I wasn't sure. I was afraid. I was panic-stricken. How

13 could I know what was happening on the ground?

14 Q. While you were at the Rudo camp, did you receive medical treatment

15 there?

16 A. Yes. I was in prison for three months. My situation -- my

17 condition deteriorated. Everybody smoked. I don't smoke. This asthma.

18 And I was being suffocated and then I was taken to the hospital in Rudo.

19 Dr. Vera Rajak took me in and she treated me. They were humane. They

20 were good to me. I had medicine.

21 Q. Were you finally registered with the Red Cross when you were at

22 Rudo?

23 A. When we came to Rudo, on the next day the Red Cross came and then

24 I registered with them there. Then they allowed me to write a message to

25 my family saying that I was alive and where I was.

Page 3082












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3083

1 Q. Was that the first time you were able to contact your family?

2 A. The first time after 22 months.

3 Q. From Rudo, where were you taken?

4 A. After six months of prison in Rudo, we were taken during the night

5 to Sarajevo Kula, the prison there.

6 Q. When was that?

7 A. After six months of Rudo, of the prison in Rudo. I do not recall

8 the date.

9 Q. When were you finally released from prison, that is from Kula?

10 A. I was in Kula in prison for three months. There was a

11 deterioration, in Kasindol I was also taken into hospital, two and a half

12 years later I was exchanged in Sarajevo.

13 Q. Did you receive medical treatment when you were released in

14 Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes. They asked me when they exchanged me, where I would go and

16 whether I had family in Sarajevo. I said, "No. I want to go to hospital,

17 to recuperate. I want to have my rib cage x-rayed to see whether

18 something would have to be done again and whether I would have to receive

19 further treatment." And that's the way it was. I was sent to the

20 hospital Podhrastova.

21 Q. Why did you ask to have your rib cage x-rayed? What did you

22 expect was the problem?

23 A. There was a problem. It hurt me. My ribs hurt me. However, they

24 told me that only two ribs were broken. However, when they x-rayed me, I

25 was in hospital for 15 days. And in the letter that was given to me when

Page 3084

1 I was released, it said that there were four ribs that were broken and the

2 fifth one was fractured a bit. You have this letter of release from

3 hospital in Sarajevo, and please take a good look at it.

4 Q. We'll get to that in a moment. The rib cage -- the rib injuries

5 that you described, were those as a result of being beaten by Pero Elez in

6 October 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Had you gotten an x-ray of those ribs at any point before you were

9 released in Sarajevo in October of 1994?

10 A. Yes. When I was in Kasindol, in the hospital, I was transferred

11 to Kula because I was ill. And a doctor saw me and he said, "(redacted),

12 tell me, quite freely: If they had beaten you, what is it that hurts you?"

13 And I told him that they had beat me in the ribs. And he x-rayed me and

14 then he sent me to hospital and I spent three months there on the second

15 floor.

16 Q. Let me ask you the question this way: While you were detained at

17 KP Dom, did anybody take an x-ray of your ribs?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you receive any treatment at KP Dom for the rib injuries that

20 you got on the 2nd of October, 1992, while you were at KP Dom?

21 A. No. No. I only got injections and medicines when I would be all

22 choked up.

23 Q. From your asthma?

24 A. Asthma, yes. Asthma, yes.

25 MS. KUO: Now, with the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have

Page 3085

1 the Witness shown ID282, and this is the medical record that you've

2 referred to.

3 Q. Is this the medical record of the treatment you received in

4 Sarajevo upon your release in 1994?

5 A. Yes, this is my letter of release.

6 Q. And this is also the document, is it not, that you referred to as

7 showing the x-rays of your broken ribs?

8 A. Yes. Please go ahead and take a look at this discharge

9 certificate from Sarajevo, and you can see all these things in it.

10 MS. KUO: Thank you. The Prosecution wishes to enter this exhibit

11 into evidence as P282 and 282A, the English translation.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P282, the other

15 document will be P282A, and they will be under seal.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you. Those are all our questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination. Mr. Bakrac.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Very briefly, I

19 think.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

21 Q. I should like to continue along the lines of one of the last

22 questions that my learned colleague had put. However, first I would like

23 to wish the witness a good afternoon and I would like to introduce

24 myself. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac and I am an attorney at law, one of the

25 Defence counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

Page 3086

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Sir, I will have to ask you one more thing. Please do not answer

3 my questions immediately, as soon as I put them, because we speak the same

4 language. It is necessary for the interpreters to interpret this question

5 first in order for everyone else in the courtroom to know the question

6 that is being put and what it was like.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm sorry to say so, but you came in so

8 far into that answer as it was still being translated that the

9 interpreters, I think, had to gallop very hard to keep up with you. So

10 you pause too, please.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I will, Your Honour.

12 Q. Sir, you said that in the KP Dom you did not get anything for your

13 injuries except for injections and medicine. Did you complain to anyone

14 specifically regarding your rib injuries?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who did you complain to?

17 A. To Dr. Aziz Torlak. And it is only a wet sheet that could save me

18 and that would be bandaged around my ribs. I didn't have anything else to

19 help me.

20 Q. Did you go to the prison clinic?

21 A. No. I could not stand on my own two feet for four months. They

22 had to feed me.

23 Q. After four months and after you managed to get on your own two

24 feet, did you go to the prison clinic?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 3087

1 Q. Who did you go to see at the prison clinic?

2 A. There was this little male nurse. I forgot his name. He took us

3 there.

4 Q. Did you complain to him about your injuries?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did he tell you in response to that?

7 A. He said that they would rather exchange a horse than me. What a

8 shame.

9 Q. Did you say how you sustained your injuries?

10 A. I did not dare speak about that, regrettably.

11 Q. Who gave you injections and medicines?

12 A. The male nurse. He brought them and our doctors administered them

13 to me when necessary.

14 Q. This nurse that you're speaking about, that you spoke of just now,

15 that's the nurse of the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. In response to my learned colleague's question

18 concerning your statement, when you said that Savo Todovic was warden of

19 the KP Dom, you explained this, and my colleague also asked you whether

20 Drs. Torlak or Karovic sent some requests to him. However, it is not

21 quite clear after that, so I have to ask you now whether it is correct

22 that in the statement that you gave to the OTP in 1998 you said the

23 following:

24 "I know that on my behalf, Dr. Aziz Torlak and Dr. Ibrahim Karovic

25 wrote a request to Savo Todovic. They asked that I should be exchanged

Page 3088

1 because I was very ill."

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Correct. But nothing came out of this exchange.

4 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me whether you also said that you were

5 spared of any kind of work.

6 A. Yes. As a patient, a sick person who had been beaten up, I was

7 given a certificate that I was not forced to do any physical labour.

8 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you also said that you knew the

9 names of two guards. One was Burilo and the other was Matovic, who was a

10 youngish man, medium height, with dark hair. He wore a military

11 camouflage uniform and he was armed. Is that correct?

12 A. I don't remember, given all that fear. I think they also had a

13 pistol along with this guard's uniform.

14 Q. So what you stated to the Prosecutor's office that this guard was

15 in military camouflage uniform, that's not correct?

16 A. I said "guard's uniform."

17 Q. Now, you spoke about the medical treatment you received. Do you

18 know the name of Milivoje Milic, a guard?

19 A. Yes. He is the only guard who let me open the window. He said,

20 "(redacted), when I'm on duty, you can stand by the open window. When I'm

21 on duty, I'll bring the nurse to administer injections to you," whereas

22 the others would say, "Jump off the third floor, you balija."

23 Q. So he even brought a doctor to see you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Today during the examination-in-chief, you explained

Page 3089

1 that you were beaten when you were leaving the hospital, going to the KP

2 Dom. You said that this was done by the police. Was this the military

3 police or some other police?

4 A. In hospital I was beaten by Pero Elez.

5 Q. Does that mean that nobody beat you except for Pero Elez?

6 A. Yes. The Serb police did. I don't know their names. When I was

7 leaving the hospital, as I was walking downstairs, he hit me with a

8 baton. And I held onto the railing. Had it not been for the railing, I

9 would have fallen down. Three days later it was all black and blue, the

10 place where he beat me with the baton, and he was kicking me in the ass

11 all the time as I was going down. And I also fell and there was blood all

12 over me. And he took a pistol and pointed it at me and he counted up to

13 10, and by the time he counted to 8, I came to and I managed to get up.

14 And the other -- and when we got to the car, he put those other two in the

15 car and he put me into the trunk, where there was dust and there were

16 chains. Gentlemen, had there been a longer ride to the KP Dom, I would

17 have suffocated all together.

18 Q. Why didn't you dare tell the police in Gorazde about this? Wasn't

19 this the Muslim police that you gave this statement to?

20 A. I said later that the first statement -- I mean, everything the

21 way it was, later in Sarajevo. I said, in connection with everything I

22 had to say -- please take a look at my papers. They're all there.

23 Q. Sir, my colleague from the Office of the Prosecutor who was

24 questioning you asked you why you did not talk about this incident in your

25 first statement given to the police in Gorazde, and you explained that you

Page 3090

1 were afraid to make such a statement. And now I am asking you whether, at

2 the security station in Gorazde, this was the Muslim police?

3 A. Yes, that was the Muslim police. And two and a half years later,

4 when I was exchanged in Sarajevo -- I mean, Rasevic took me to Gorazde, I

5 got some rest and then I made statements.

6 Q. You were not afraid to mention Pero Elez in this statement,

7 though.

8 A. In Sarajevo, they asked me, "How do you know, (redacted), that Pero

9 beat you?" And I said I knew that Pero came after the lady doctor and

10 that he started beating me and she said, "Pero, in the name of your

11 children, I ask you to stop beating them." And then -- oh, I'm sorry I

12 even mentioned the last name.

13 Q. You said, "Later I heard about the last name Elez." How come?

14 A. When I was sent to Fojnica, I took the newspaper Dnevni Avaz, and

15 then it said as if he had been killed. And then his family put a notice

16 in Dvnevni Avaz, and I recognised him. I said this is the guy who beat

17 me, a big guy with a beard, and it said "Pero Elez". And there is his

18 father's name also. You can look at this document and you can see him.

19 Q. You said during the examination-in-chief that he was portrayed as

20 a hero.

21 A. You can read it. You can read it and you can see what he did

22 there and what he did in Foca.

23 Q. I'm just asking you because, in your examination-in-chief, you

24 said that he was portrayed as a hero.

25 A. Please, take a look at this document and read it.

Page 3091

1 Q. Tell me, just one thing. Dnevni Avaz, is that a Muslim newspaper

2 or is that a newspaper that is published in the territory Republika

3 Srpska?

4 A. This is a BH newspaper.

5 Q. I'm going to ask you once again, sir, about two policemen whom you

6 mentioned, that they came to take you from hospital to the KP Dom and that

7 they beat you. Were they military policemen?

8 A. Ordinary policemen in uniform. When the doctor phoned, they came,

9 and one of them kicked me and hit me with a baton.

10 Q. We heard about this, sir.

11 A. If I have to tell you about it, I'm going to tell you about it

12 right now. And you can go to Foca and you can go to the hospital and talk

13 to the doctor and she can tell you exactly the way this went. I want the

14 truth to be known and I came here to tell the truth.

15 Q. Sir, please. I am not bringing into question what you are

16 saying. I'm just interested in something else.

17 A. Please go ahead.

18 Q. I'm not challenging any of the things that you are saying. I'm

19 not saying you're not telling the truth. Just tell me whether they were

20 military policemen or not. I'm not bringing into question what happened

21 to you.

22 A. They were not military policemen.

23 Q. In the statement you gave in 1998 to the Office of the Prosecutor,

24 you said the following. I don't have to repeat all of this. You talked

25 about this incident with a certain Pero and you said, "When he beat us, he

Page 3092












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3093

1 did not have weapons." And then you say, "The doctor called the police.

2 Two military policemen came. Pero in the meantime left."

3 A. Pero went out.

4 Q. "Two military policemen came." And then at the next paragraph,

5 again you said, "The military policemen handed us over to the prison

6 staff." Is that correct?

7 A. The policemen handed us over, but that fear, I certainly could not

8 see whether they were military or whether they had ordinary uniforms.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. Thank you, too.

11 Q. You also said the prison staff that was present wore camouflage

12 uniforms. Is that also correct?

13 A. I did not say that.

14 Q. So you are claiming that what I read from your statement given to

15 the OTP, that the prison staff present there wore camouflage uniforms, you

16 say that that is not correct?

17 A. It's not.

18 Q. After Room 15, what room were you in, if you may remember?

19 A. Later, we were transferred to two rooms. I think it was number 30

20 and number 20. As people left for plum picking, others were brought in.

21 So during that year in the KP Dom in Foca, I was in three different rooms.

22 Q. First you said 15 and then you said 20 and 30. Room number 30

23 does not exist. Could you please focus a bit? Which room was it?

24 A. Well, you tend to forget. There was 25, 20, 18. Those were the

25 rooms.

Page 3094

1 Q. Please tell us, from Room 15, were you transferred to the

2 right-hand wing of the prison complex?

3 A. The left-hand wing, if I remember correctly.

4 Q. And all the three rooms that you were in were in the left wing of

5 the prisoners' quarters?

6 A. Yes, left, up there with those birches.

7 Q. And the clinic and the prison hospital were in that wing?

8 A. Yes, but below.

9 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Safet Avdic?

10 A. He was in the same room, former director.

11 Q. Which room?

12 A. Fifteen.

13 Q. How long was he with you in Room 15?

14 A. About six months.

15 Q. So six months after your arrival on the 1st of October, 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And after that?

18 A. He left to be exchanged.

19 Q. From Room 15?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Your Honours, I have

22 no further questions.

23 A. Thank you, too.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination, Ms. Kuo?

25 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.

Page 3095

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That is the end of your evidence.

2 Thank you for giving that evidence. You are now free to leave. I suggest

3 you wait a moment while the blinds are being lowered so you can leave

4 without being seen by the public.

5 A. Thank you, too. All the best to you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Smith, we are up to 120, are we?

8 MR. SMITH: Yes, we are, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE HUNT: What are the protective measures for this witness?

10 MR. SMITH: A pseudonym and facial.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE HUNT: Would you please make the solemn declaration in the

14 document that is being shown to you, sir?


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

20 Examined by Mr. Smith:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. In front of you is a sheet of paper. On

22 the top of that sheet of paper is a name and date of birth. Is that your

23 name and date of birth?

24 A. It is.

25 MR. SMITH: I tender that document, Your Honour.

Page 3096

1 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have copies for us?

2 MR. SMITH: We believe that we did have copies but the case

3 manager has just gone to make a few. We have copies now, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I think that it's already admitted into evidence this

5 morning. It was when the witness came that had the name. It was on my

6 desk and I'm afraid I thought it was he, and I put it into evidence before

7 the witness came in and gave a different name and didn't realise it. So

8 it is already in evidence as Exhibit 427.

9 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, it is actually a different version

10 because it does have the date of birth of this witness.

11 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then. We will have another one. It will

12 be Exhibit 429 and it will be P429, and it will be under seal.


14 Q. Witness, during and prior to April, 1992, were you a career JNA

15 officer?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what was -- what is your ethnicity?

18 A. Muslim.

19 Q. (redacted)

20 (redacted)?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And what was -- who was the fuel intended for? What was the

23 purpose of this fuel depot?

24 A. That -- there was no fuel in that depot. Preparations were under

25 way so that the fuel, which would subsequently fed into the cisterns and

Page 3097

1 used by the Muslim People's Army and the United Nations, their forces

2 which were in east Bosnia.

3 Q. And was this depot fenced?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what buildings and structures were in this compound area?

6 A. There was a prefabricated building housing the command for the

7 supply and feeding of fuel into cisterns, with an automatic system for the

8 loading, unloading, showing the exact state of fuel and the quantity

9 available in the depot. Then there were also storerooms which were dug in

10 and used for things such as oils, oil derivatives, oil derivatives which

11 were in cisterns, in barrels, in cannisters, and there was also an open

12 warehouse used to distribute fuel, that is to pour it into containers or

13 into smaller containers, from one to 20 litres.

14 Q. Thank you. I'd just like to clarify a matter. In your previous

15 answer you said that the fuel was intended to be fed into the cisterns

16 used by the Muslim People's Army. Did you say that or did you say the

17 JNA?

18 A. JNA. Not the Muslim army; the Yugoslav People's Army.

19 JUDGE HUNT: The answer went on to say, "and the United Nations."

20 I don't know whether that was intended as well.


22 Q. And you mentioned that the fuel was to be used for the United

23 Nations as well, as well as the JNA. Is that the case?

24 A. Yes, that is the case, because that depot belonged to the federal

25 agencies of the Federal Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia, which in

Page 3098

1 December turned it over to the Yugoslav People's Army.

2 Q. And where is the compound in relation to the main road between

3 Foca and Gorazde?

4 A. It is eight kilometres away from Foca, on the road to Gorazde, and

5 three kilometres from Ustikolina, towards Foca.

6 Q. And about how far was the command building within this compound

7 from the main gate?

8 A. The command was 10, maybe 12 metres away.

9 Q. And how big was the compound, approximately, the length and width?

10 A. It was about 800 metres long and the average width was 100 or, at

11 some places, 200 metres, depending, from the gate and then onward.

12 Q. And as of April 1992, how many soldiers did you have under your

13 command?

14 A. I had 14 soldiers and 4 civilians, civilians working for the

15 Yugoslav People's Army. The soldiers were regular JNA soldiers doing

16 their regular military service.

17 Q. And were they of mixed ethnicity?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And when were you transferred to this fuel depot?

20 A. I was transferred after the first blockade of Sarajevo. It was on

21 the 6th of April. No. Excuse me. I was transferred in November 1991,

22 and that depot was the depot of the federal agencies. So they had begun

23 the process of turning it over, and on the 6th of April, after the

24 blockade of Sarajevo, the first one, I refused to go to work in

25 Ustikolina. But from my command, my command warned me that I had to go.

Page 3099

1 And no sooner did I talk to them on the phone than - with the men in

2 charge in my command - than the military police arrived to the house where

3 I lived. And after that, I went to the command, and for three days

4 attempts were being made for me to leave Sarajevo to get to Ustikolina. I

5 tried to reach Ustikolina, taking the direction of Trnovo, but it was

6 impossible.

7 Q. Were you ordered to go back to the Pilipovici fuel depot?

8 A. I did not get an order. I was taken by force.

9 Q. And why did you intend not to go back to Pilipovici in April?

10 A. Because I had already sensed and heard in the media that the

11 situation had reached a critical point in that part of Bosnia.

12 Q. And in any event, you were escorted back to Pilipovici; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you resumed your command position there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At this time was there a JNA base in Ustikolina?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how far from Pilipovici is Ustikolina?

20 A. Three kilometres.

21 Q. And what was the function of this JNA base?

22 A. It was the third depot of ammunition and explosive devices. They

23 had their warehouses in two places, and the command in the centre itself

24 of Ustikolina, right next to the mosque. Its function, the function of

25 the depot, was the logistical supply of ammunition, mines, and explosive

Page 3100

1 devices, the supply for the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in compliance

2 with orders received from Sarajevo, from the 777th Rear Base of the 2nd

3 Corps.

4 Q. Do you know how many troops were based at this warehouse complex

5 in Ustikolina, including the command centre and the two warehouses?

6 A. I don't know, because I was not directly subordinate to the

7 commander who was the commander in the 3rd depot. At no time did I insist

8 on getting a number of soldiers, because the formations in former barracks

9 were all a military secret.

10 Q. Even though you don't know the number of the troops, were the

11 troops of mixed ethnicity that were attached to this base?

12 A. Until January, there were regular troops of the Yugoslav People's

13 Army, and those were lads doing their military service. In January, in

14 addition to their number, a significant number of reservists of one ethnic

15 origin turned up.

16 Q. And what ethnic group was that?

17 A. Serb.

18 Q. And when you say "they turned up," what did they do when they got

19 there? Did they become part of the troops at that base?

20 A. According to what I could see and feel, some of them were -- that

21 is, those reservists who came to the barracks had been supplied with

22 clothing, footwear, weapons, and some of them stayed in the barracks and

23 others headed for other places on the basis of the assignments that were

24 not known to me; that is, I did not know their assignments and I don't

25 know where they went.

Page 3101

1 Q. And how did you know about the arrival of these extra men to the

2 JNA base in Ustikolina?

3 A. I know it because logistically I -- it was this depot which was to

4 support me logistically, and pursuant to the orders of the command in

5 Sarajevo, I was getting my food supplies, ammunition, weapons, and all

6 derivatives from that depot, so that I came practically every day, once or

7 twice even, depending on the situation there. And all the orders that

8 came from Sarajevo came to that depot, because they had a fax machine and

9 I didn't.

10 Q. Did you notice whether or not the Muslims that were attached to

11 that JNA base, whether they started to leave in January 1992?

12 A. They started to leave on the basis of somebody's orders. I do not

13 know whose. But by January the 15th, not a single Muslim reservist was to

14 be found in that base.

15 Q. And about how many Muslims left that base?

16 A. Whatever I tell you won't be the accurate figure, but quite a

17 number of them left. I wasn't really fully abreast of it all, but Muslims

18 did not turn up any more; that is, you call a man and you see that this

19 Muslim is not there, that those names are gone.

20 Q. And the command structure at the JNA base in Ustikolina in

21 January, do you know what ethnicity that was, if it was one particular

22 type, or was it mixed?

23 A. It was mixed. The commander was a Serb, and in depots there were

24 Serbs from Bosnia, Serbs from Serbia. But by and large, they were all

25 active military persons in the Yugoslav People's Army, and the structure

Page 3102












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13 and English transcripts.













Page 3103

1 was determined by the command in Sarajevo.

2 Q. You said the command structure was mixed. Did Muslim commanders

3 stay in Ustikolina or did they leave, at this time in January?

4 A. Active-duty military did not leave, because they dared not,

5 because they would be brought before a court martial, as at that time the

6 Yugoslav People's Army was still in all the barracks in Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 and it had not yet been condemned by anyone as a monoethnic army.

8 Q. And the Muslims that were attached to this base that left in

9 January 1992, where did they go and why did they go?

10 A. According to stories which I heard from active-duty military down

11 there, they disagreed with the policy of the Yugoslav People's Army, and

12 they went to their native places and some of them organised groups and

13 groupings, and I do not have any detailed knowledge about those.

14 Q. In early April 1992, did any civilians approach you at the fuel

15 depot and ask you for some protection within the compound?

16 A. As early as the 8th of April, a large number of civilians began to

17 arrive from the direction of Foca, began to move from the direction of

18 Foca towards Ustikolina. And when arriving at the gate, people began

19 first to speak to soldiers, and then soldiers approached me directly to

20 see if we could accommodate the refugees in the depot because people still

21 trusted the Yugoslav People's Army, that there would be no killings and

22 that that army would provide them with logistic support, that is food in

23 the first place and perhaps a roof somewhere to sleep, so that they could

24 go on either to Gorazde or some other place, that is take some other road

25 which was still passable in Bosnia.

Page 3104

1 Q. And briefly, did they tell you why they left, why they left Foca?

2 A. They said because an attack had taken place on some villages

3 around Foca, and because these people had been expelled. And during the

4 war, it happened, if the news reaches you that somebody, some three

5 kilometres away, is coming to kill you and expel you, then everybody is on

6 the run so as to avoid finding themselves in the same predicament as those

7 that had been attacked already.

8 Q. I think you said that the first civilians that approached you was

9 about the 8th of April. Did the numbers increase throughout April?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And on the 26th of April, 1992, the compound was taken over by

12 other forces?

13 A. On the 26th of April, and that was Easter, the White Eagles

14 paramilitary formations took over the depot.

15 Q. And what was the maximum number of people that you had in the

16 compound prior to the 26th of April that were seeking protection?

17 A. Well, it depended on the night. Until the 26th, there were never

18 less than 300, and at times, it was as many as 500.

19 Q. And during the day, did a number of these people leave the

20 compound and then come back at night? Was that a pattern that was

21 developing?

22 A. Some went on towards Gorazde, and some, those who were nearest,

23 whose houses were nearest the barracks, they would go in the morning and

24 return at night-time because they thought it was safer for them to be in

25 the barracks at night than in their houses, in case of an attack.

Page 3105

1 Q. And did you know the ethnicity of these people that were seeking

2 protection?

3 A. The majority of them were Muslims, 99 per cent. However, one of

4 the first to seek protection was a man of Serb origin, and he was in the

5 depot together with all the other refugees throughout that period.

6 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that's probably a good place to stop.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will resume at 9.30 in the morning.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to

9 be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of February,

10 2001, at 9.30 a.m.