Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3106

1 Thursday, 15 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Good morning, Your Honours.

11 WITNESS: FWS-120 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Smith: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Witness. Witness, I'd just like to clear up one

15 matter. Some witnesses in this case have been referring to the village of

16 Filipovici as Filipovici, and others as Pilipovici, one with an "F," one

17 with a "P." Is there a difference between the two villages or is it the

18 same village?

19 A. It's the same village, except that in various documents issued by

20 various institutions, there were differences of that kind, explanations as

21 to whether it's Filipovici or Pilipovici.

22 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned yesterday that a number of Muslims

23 approached you, seeking protection, and at some stages that it reached to

24 about 500. You mentioned that the first person that arrived seeking

25 protection was a Serb. Do you know the person's name?

Page 3107

1 A. Ljuban Blagojevic. His name is Ljuban Blagojevic.

2 Q. And what village was he from?

3 A. He had a house in Handzici, where he was supposed to open a

4 restaurant or something like that. However, at any rate, he lived in

5 Handzici, with a predominantly Muslim population.

6 Q. You mentioned that you started to house refugees in the compound

7 between the 8th of April and the 26th of April. At any time during that

8 period were you asked to stop protecting the Muslim civilians?

9 A. I was not asked. I was called on the telephone and I was told

10 that I should not receive Muslim civilians any more and that there would

11 be a conflict between the Muslim population in Filipovici and persons who

12 are from Foca.

13 Q. And when did you receive this phone call? About how many days

14 before the compound was taken over?

15 A. Well, sometime around the 23rd of April, in the afternoon, a man

16 called Pero called me. He represented the SDS in that area, in the area

17 of Ustikolina, and he told me not to receive refugees any longer, that

18 there would be problems and that there would be clashes between the people

19 from Pilipovici and others, because things that were not normal were

20 happening, things that already belonged to a system of war.

21 Q. And do you know Pero's surname?

22 A. Milisic, something like that. At any rate, one of his legs was

23 shorter. He was a dark man. He was among the head people of the SDS.

24 Mihajlovic. I think it's Pero Mihajlovic, something like that.

25 Q. And were you told what would happen if you continued to house the

Page 3108

1 Muslims at the compound?

2 A. Well, I was told -- or actually, Pero told me that he would send

3 people who were paid to cleanse that area.

4 Q. And when you mean "that area," do you mean the compound?

5 A. I was referring to the warehouse and around the warehouse.

6 Q. That's the JNA warehouse that you were (redacted)?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did he say who he would send to do this?

9 A. He said that he would send people who were paid to do that.

10 Q. And did he give you any particular reason for making this threat?

11 A. He gave a particular reason, because there was already a conflict

12 above town, near a barracks in a village. That's what he said. And there

13 had already been killings. Some of the Serbs were killed, the Serb

14 population, and at any rate, they wanted to find the culprits and to pay

15 back for that.

16 Q. And was this man a Serb?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And over this period from the 8th of April to the 26th, what

19 advice were you giving the civilians that were seeking protection at your

20 warehouse?

21 A. Since these were people who were fleeing from death, they would

22 come to the warehouse, asking to spend the night there, and then

23 logistically speaking, if I can help them in any way - by way of food,

24 that is - then they'd start moving towards Gorazde and a part of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina where they could avoid the bloodshed. All of those who

Page 3109

1 came could spend unlimited time in the barracks. They could come and

2 leave at the same moment, proceed further on. However, the condition was

3 that they were not allowed to bring weapons into the barracks. If they

4 had any weapons - and they had very few weapons; they mostly had pistols -

5 they would leave it with the soldiers. It would be put in a locker and

6 then, when a man would continue his journey, his weapons would be

7 returned.

8 Q. And moving to the night of the 25th and the 26th of April, did you

9 hear shooting during that night?

10 A. Since this is mountainous terrain, in the night between the 25th

11 and 26th, on the 25th already, around 2300 hours, it could be seen at

12 greater distance that there were fires, and already on the 26th, at about

13 2.00 in the morning, the flames were getting closer to the warehouse and

14 the shooting became louder. From one moment to another, the sound of

15 shooting became louder and louder, which meant that it was getting closer

16 and closer to the warehouse, to the part where I was.

17 Q. And how long did this shooting continue for, that night and into

18 that morning?

19 A. The shooting continued all night, intermittently. I thought that

20 since this was a religious holiday, a Serb religious holiday, I thought --

21 I thought that people were celebrating and therefore shooting as well.

22 However, small arms could be heard. However, one could also hear that

23 bigger weapons were being used as well because of these flashes of light,

24 because such flashes certainly cannot come from small-calibre weapons.

25 They have to come from larger-calibre weapons. So one can assume that

Page 3110

1 these were attacks with larger-calibre weapons.

2 Q. And about what time did this shooting and these larger-calibre

3 weapons stop firing?

4 A. The firing from these larger-calibre weapons abated sometime in

5 the morning of the 26th, and then nearby, there was shooting and

6 everything else.

7 Q. Did some of the refugees or the civilians seeking protection at

8 the warehouse, did they leave that morning?

9 A. Refugees started leaving already in -- on the 25th, during the

10 night, and that number kept going down every minute. I did not monitor

11 the exact number of people as it went down from one hour to the other;

12 however, the front line was getting closer, moving towards the warehouse.

13 People were going towards Gorazde, towards the rest of the free

14 territory. So already in the morning, this number was very small.

15 Q. About how many people were in the compound at the warehouse when

16 it was taken over later that day? About how many refugees?

17 A. Well, there were about 50 refugees left, a bit more than that,

18 primarily women, children, and those who could not go on because they were

19 disabled or ill. In addition to that, they thought that whatever would

20 happen to the regular army, the Yugoslav People's Army, could happen to

21 them as well.

22 Q. Now, this group of people that was still there before the compound

23 was taken over, did you move them within the compound to a safer place?

24 A. Yes. There were snipers already at the small building by the

25 entrance into the warehouse. First, I had to withdraw the soldier who was

Page 3111

1 there at the entrance, guarding the entrance. There was already shelling,

2 shooting around the warehouse. When I saw that, then in order to save the

3 refugees, I moved them about 70 metres from headquarters to a storage

4 area, which is an underground storage area, and that was safe if the

5 warehouse itself were to be shelled, so that these people would not get

6 killed. I also put two soldiers there to guard them; if possible, to

7 defend them with rifles.

8 Q. And later that day, did soldiers, other soldiers, others than your

9 own, break into the compound?

10 A. After 1300 hours, the White Eagles, with their formations, broke

11 through the gate of the warehouse and barged into the warehouse itself.

12 Q. And at this time, were you in the administration building, in the

13 command centre?

14 A. Only two soldiers and I remained at the command centre. All the

15 other soldiers and refugees were in the shelter that I mentioned a few

16 minutes ago.

17 Q. And the White Eagles, where are they from? Where is that unit

18 based?

19 A. According to my information, these are mercenaries who came from

20 Serbia. That's a paramilitary formation that did not belong to any one of

21 the armies. The JNA had nothing to do with them.

22 Q. And about how many broke into the compound?

23 A. Around 20 of them. They came in a bulletproof vehicle. It was

24 about as big as a small freight vehicle. And in the front and in the back

25 it had thick metal sheets that could protect from any profile of bullet.

Page 3112

1 Q. And after they broke into the compound, did you speak to the

2 commander of this group at any time?

3 A. With the commander, when they broke in with this bulletproof

4 vehicle, they came to the very entrance of the command. They asked me to

5 talk. They said that they were regular army. So there was a meeting

6 between myself and them. They said to two of my soldiers that we had to

7 negotiate, otherwise they would kill all of us.

8 Q. And how many people did you speak to from the White Eagles at this

9 time?

10 A. Two.

11 Q. And were they the -- was one of them, at least, the commander of

12 that group?

13 A. Yes. I talked to Commander Dida and his brother Vlado. Those

14 were the only names I knew. I didn't find out about any other names until

15 the present day.

16 Q. And on this day, was this the first time that you met Dida and

17 Vlado?

18 A. The first time.

19 Q. And how did you know those were their names?

20 A. I knew that those were their names because Vlado said, "Dida, call

21 the boss to see what we'll do with the main guy at headquarters and what

22 we'll do with the rest." And Dida then called; using a Motorola, he

23 called the boss, who ordered them to bring me in. As for the rest, they

24 could do whatever they deemed necessary. This conversation took place in

25 the office where I was the only person, together with Dida and Vlado.

Page 3113

1 Dida often addressed Vlado, and Vlado often addressed Dida, and they used

2 their names most of the time.

3 Q. And what was discussed between Dida and Vlado and yourself?

4 A. Well, when Dida entered my office, which was supposed to be the

5 office of the commander of barracks, he took a Motorola and he called the

6 boss. He said, when speaking on the Motorola, he said, "Number 90

7 speaking," and then his boss came in. I don't know what number he used.

8 And he asked him, "What should we do with this main guy here?" That was

9 me. And then he asked what he should do with the rest. He said -- I

10 heard this boss of theirs speaking on the Motorola, saying, "Bring that

11 main guy in here and do whatever you want with the rest." After that,

12 Dida asked me where the refugees were, and I answered that I did not have

13 any refugees.

14 In the meantime, a team of the White Eagles - actually, those who

15 had come with Vlado and Dida - got out of the armoured vehicle, and they

16 were already all over headquarters and in the warehouse. Dida said to me

17 that if I do not say where the refugees are, they would set the warehouse

18 on fire and that we'd burn in it, both we and the refugees. Since I had

19 no choice, in order to save human lives, at least to a certain extent,

20 that is to say of soldiers and of refugees, I said where the refugees

21 were.

22 Q. And after you stated where the refugees were, did you hear

23 anything? Did you hear any gunfire?

24 A. First Dida's and Vlado's soldiers in the headquarters forced all

25 the strongboxes open and took whatever they wanted, and then when they

Page 3114

1 learnt where the refugees were, Dida and two of his men went to the

2 refugees. I stayed in the office where I was guarded by Vlado, who was

3 with me. And after a while, I heard two relatively long bursts of fire,

4 because my field of vision from the headquarters was such that I could not

5 see what was going on in that part.

6 Q. Did you hear later whether any refugees died that day in the

7 compound?

8 A. No, I did not, because I did not leave the office or know what was

9 going on until around 1700, when we were to go to Foca. Only after I came

10 out, I saw that soldiers were in the armoured vehicle and that a bus had

11 come to take women and children on. In that column, there were many cars

12 that had been in the depot and which the White Eagles took away.

13 Q. At about 5.00, were the refugees placed on the bus?

14 A. Around 5.00, I saw a bus that was full but I did not know how many

15 refugees were in it and how many refugees were taken, nor did I dare ask

16 about it.

17 Q. And were you taken from the compound to the Velecevo women's

18 prison shortly afterwards?

19 A. First, at the head of the column were representatives of the White

20 Eagles. Then behind them, a column was formed and I was in it, and

21 refugees and troops and the cars, all the cars that had been found in the

22 depot - they were private cars - and we set off towards Foca. But we were

23 stopped at the intersection 15 metres from the barracks as a car had been

24 set on fire there, a small Fiat, and we all had to get off the vehicle

25 because gunfire took place. And after that, one of men -- one of White

Page 3115

1 Eagles came up to me, pulled out his knife and he said, "That's the

2 balija. I'll cut his throat now." And at that moment, a White Eagle -

3 Vlado, Dida, I don't know which - said, "You won't." And I only got a

4 rifle butt on my head. Fifteen minutes later, since the snipers had

5 stopped their fire, the column proceeded towards Foca.

6 Q. And were your soldiers also taken from the compound as well?

7 A. All soldiers were taken from the depot in a vehicle which had

8 brought the White Eagles.

9 Q. And the vehicle that you were in, who else was with you?

10 A. I was in a jeep which belonged to me, and I had a driver with me

11 and two men, two White Eagles whom I do not know. It was the first time I

12 saw them.

13 Q. And after this incident when you were hit, were you taken to

14 Velecevo women's prison?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were the refugees taken there as well?

17 A. I am not aware of that. In Foca, the vehicles parted ways. I was

18 taken to Velecevo and other vehicles stayed in Foca, and where they went

19 from there, I did not know.

20 Q. What time did you arrive at the women's prison, about?

21 A. After 2200 hours.

22 Q. When you arrived at the prison, were you handed over to anyone?

23 A. They handed us - me - over to the prison guard, and the guards

24 took me to the second floor, to a room at the very entrance into the

25 Velecevo penitentiary; rather, the area of Velecevo.

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Page 3118

1 Q. And before you went inside the prison, did you see any other

2 soldiers or other guards on your arrival?

3 A. The guard was -- the guards were at the entrance, at the gate.

4 The guards were around the gate. And in front of it, on an elevation in

5 front of the gate, Serb troops were lined up, those who were coming back

6 from a mission. To my mind -- or rather, I guessed that there were around

7 30, more than 30 men.

8 Q. And what were they wearing, these troops?

9 A. They were wearing blue uniforms.

10 Q. And how did you know they were Serb troops?

11 A. Because, well, had they been regular soldiers, they would have had

12 olive-grey uniforms; and again, the caps were different. Neither the

13 clothes nor the patches on their shoulders, they were already theirs; that

14 is, they were different from those of the Yugoslav People's Army. Be that

15 as it may, those were troops which did not belong to the Yugoslav People's

16 Army.

17 Q. Now, you said that you were taken -- you were handed over to

18 guards and taken inside the prison, taken to a room. I'd now like to ask

19 you, when you first arrived in that room, who you saw there. Not what

20 happened, but who you saw in that room.

21 A. The duty guard or the duty soldier - depends on what you call

22 them - took me to the first floor, to the third room on the right -- on

23 the left, and I entered. And in that room I saw Vojo Maksimovic; Velibor

24 Ostojic; Cancar; then a man with a pimple, pimples, rather short, and

25 later on I realised he was a physician; and a man with white hair, medium

Page 3119

1 height, and rather skinny.

2 Q. Did anyone else come into this room shortly after you arrived?

3 A. And their chief also entered the room, Simkovic. No. No. No.

4 Stanic. Stanic came. Miro Stanic came two or three minutes later.

5 Q. Now, when you first arrived in this room, was there a table in it?

6 A. There were two tables. Both were close by. One could consider

7 them as one table; bigger, much bigger.

8 Q. And what did you see on those tables?

9 A. There were large topographic maps on the table, quite large.

10 Q. Were you able to see what the maps were of, what areas they were

11 of?

12 A. It was the -- one of them showed the area towards Ustikolina,

13 towards Gorazde, and the other showed Foca and the upper part, towards

14 Velecevo.

15 Q. Did you see any markings on those maps?

16 A. On these maps there were marked units. There were red and blue

17 colours. And some facilities, that is, areas, were circled. Whatever the

18 case, it could -- one could realise straight away that those were units

19 which were attacking, that is, units which were defending themselves, or

20 rather, the capture of some facilities and ...

21 Q. Do you know what colour these markings were?

22 A. Red and blue.

23 Q. Did you see the village of Filipovici on one of these maps?

24 A. I saw the village of Pilipovici circled, and a date. That is that

25 day, the 26th, the date.

Page 3120

1 Q. And in this room, did you see anything on the walls?

2 A. On the wall, there was another map showing the territory of Foca,

3 a large one.

4 Q. When you came into the room, what happened?

5 A. Since Vojo Maksimovic knew me, that is he knew the family, he

6 said, "Where do you come from, 120? How did you turn up here? I had just

7 arrived from Belgrade, and I don't know anything about what is going on

8 here." And I told him that those maps offered sufficient information as

9 to what was going on, and on the -- and the fact that I had been brought

10 up there.

11 Ostojic asked me, "Have you joined balijas and Ustasha too? And

12 we'll find out how much you've helped them."

13 And Cancar just waved his hand like that, as a sign that something

14 would happen in relation to this.

15 Q. Did you respond to Ostojic when he said, "Have you joined the

16 balijas and Ustashas too?"

17 A. I did not reply anything specifically but I did say, "We'll see

18 what will happen next."

19 Q. You mentioned that a Miro Stanic came into the room shortly after

20 you arrived. Did he say anything when he came in?

21 A. Miro asked, "And what is this one doing here?" To which he added,

22 -- to which Vojo Maksimovic added, "Never mind, slowly." And meanwhile,

23 because this office was connected with the Miro Stanic's office, an

24 active-duty military came through the door through which I had come,

25 Lieutenant Colonel Milorad Ivanic [as interpreted], as far as I can

Page 3121

1 remember. It was an active-duty military in the Yugoslav People's Army.

2 And he said, "Is that the commander?" And turned towards them and said,

3 "If I'm wrong, let them court-martial me in Sarajevo or in Belgrade," to

4 let the refugees go, because they bore no responsibility for anything, and

5 if they killed me, as he was a Serb, a true Serb, born in Serbia, and had

6 to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina by May 15th, that he would write about my

7 murder and the killing of refugees at some time.

8 Q. You stated that this Ivancic said if they kill you, and if they

9 kill the refugees, he would write about this. That hadn't -- in your

10 evidence so far, that hasn't been mentioned, that any of the people in the

11 room had said that you would be killed or the refugees would be killed.

12 Do you know why Ivancic said that?

13 A. Because he knew that something would happen to us, and as an

14 active-duty military in the Yugoslav People's Army, under the Geneva

15 Conventions, the oath of allegiance he had taken, he could not harm any

16 people.

17 Q. After Ivancic said this, warned others to not kill you or the

18 refugees, what happened after that?

19 A. After -- what happened after that was that I left, that Miro

20 Stanic said that I would be transferred to Sarajevo the next day for

21 court-martial, and that he would see about the refugees. After that, they

22 sent me to the lower floor by the entrance to have the wound I had on my

23 head examined, and because it wasn't bleeding much, the skin had only

24 burst, I was brought back some 20 minutes later to the same room.

25 Q. And when you were brought back, do you remember who was in the

Page 3122

1 room?

2 A. In that room were Vojo Maksimovic, Ostojic and Cancar, and that

3 one who had told me to go and see about the wound, that medical man - I

4 suppose it was that physician - and another man, white-haired, thin. And

5 Miro Stanic was there too.

6 Q. And when you were brought back to the room, was there a further

7 conversation with any of these men?

8 A. Vojo Maksimovic told me, "Welcome, 120, 120. You must have a

9 drink with us." I said I couldn't, but they said that it was a Serb

10 custom and therefore one had to. So they poured some brandy for me, and

11 after a while, I said, "Cheers," and drank a small glass of brandy.

12 Q. And do you know why you were offered a drink?

13 A. At first I thought -- I thought that the worst would happen, as

14 always when the worst judgement is passed, and I thought that something

15 very bad would happen to me.

16 Q. And during this time that you were in the room for the second

17 time, was there any conversation with any of the men in the room, apart

18 from offering you this drink, about what would happen to you or the

19 refugees?

20 A. They said that I would be brought to justice in Sarajevo, to which

21 I answered that I refused -- that I wouldn't go to Sarajevo because I

22 would have to pass through the area of Miljevina, where a very mean

23 paramilitary formation was which operated under its own discretion, had no

24 command over it, and because of that, I was sure I would never reach

25 Sarajevo alive. So I said, "You better kill me straight away." And I

Page 3123

1 forgot to say that this Lieutenant Colonel Jovic [as interpreted] was also

2 present there. And to which he said, "Well, then they will take me to

3 court in Belgrade."

4 Q. You mentioned that they said you would be taken to Sarajevo to be

5 brought to justice. Do you remember who particularly said that?

6 A. Stanic.

7 Q. Did Velibor Ostojic say anything whilst you were in that room on

8 the second time?

9 A. Apart from what he said in the beginning, Velibor did not anything

10 new of any interest [as interpreted].

11 Q. And how long did you stay in this room on the second time, and

12 where were you taken?

13 A. Well, all in all, about two hours, with going downstairs about the

14 wound and so on and so forth; and after that, I was taken to the room

15 opposite where there was no one, to await my further fate.

16 Q. And so when you left this room for the second time, how was the

17 discussion left? You mentioned that you were told that you would be taken

18 to Sarajevo to be brought to justice. Was that how the conversation was

19 left or was any further details given to you about what would happen to

20 you and the refugees?

21 A. No. They did not supply me with any detail. They said, "You're

22 coming here," and the guard escorted me to another room. And I did not

23 know what was in store for me, and even less so what was in store for the

24 refugees, apart from the promise given by Lieutenant Colonel Ivancic that

25 the refugees had to be set free, that they had to be set free and that I

Page 3124

1 had to be taken to court.

2 Q. And after you were placed in this other room for a few hours, were

3 you taken to the KP Dom in Foca?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I'd just like now to ask you a few brief questions about the

6 people that you met in the room. Did you know Vojislav Maksimovic before

7 this night?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what did he do, as far as you knew?

10 A. Well, he was a teacher in Sarajevo. He taught in Sarajevo, and in

11 Sarajevo he advocated peaceful, that is, good cohabitation of Serbs,

12 Muslims, Croats, and all the other ethnic groups. He was brought up -- he

13 grew up in a family which was tolerant when it came to good relations

14 among different ethnic groups.

15 Q. And was he a politician?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. For which party?

18 A. He was in the SDS.

19 Q. And you mentioned you saw Velibor Ostojic in the room. Did you

20 know him before this night?

21 A. I knew Velibor Ostojic from the media, because he was the minister

22 of information in radio/television of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I knew him

23 by sight. After he left his flat in Ilidza because of a fight, he came to

24 live near me, so that we met unofficially a number of times. He was on

25 the same level as the people who were at the top of the political ladder

Page 3125

1 in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. And do you know whether he belonged to any political party?

3 A. I know, according to the media, that he belonged to the SDS.

4 Q. And you said that you saw a Miro Stanic in the room that night.

5 Did you know him before you arrived at Velecevo?

6 A. I never saw Milorad Stanic in my life, although he was in Foca. I

7 never had any contacts with him before that night, nor did I ever see him.

8 Q. You mentioned that -- earlier you mentioned his name was Miro

9 Stanic and a moment ago you mentioned Milorad. What was his first name?

10 A. At first I found out that his name was Miro Stanic. However,

11 later, I found out that this was Milorad Stanic. However, at that moment,

12 in the period up to 1995, I only knew that he was Miro Stanic. At any

13 rate, he was the man in charge up there at Velecevo.

14 Q. At any rate, how did you know that his name was Stanic? Did you

15 hear that that night?

16 A. I heard it that night when Lieutenant Colonel Ivanic [as

17 interpreted] Personally addressed Stanic and said, "Commander Stanic, you

18 have to take this man to court, and you have to release all the

19 refugees." When somebody is addressed as "Commander," then that person is

20 the person in charge, right?

21 Q. And how did you find out his first name was Miro that night?

22 A. I found out because Vojo Maksimovic and Cancar called him that.

23 Cancar once also said Miro. So I remember that name. I don't know

24 whether it's a pet name or something like that. I don't know.

25 Q. And you mentioned a Milan Ivancic, a Lieutenant Colonel Milan

Page 3126

1 Ivancic, that you met that night in that room. Did you know him from

2 before?

3 A. No, no, never.

4 Q. And what was he wearing?

5 A. He wore a military uniform, olive-green/grey, of the Yugoslav

6 People's Army. He had rank insignia showing that he was a Lieutenant

7 Colonel. And this is what it looks like. There are gold lines around the

8 epaulette and two golden stars. That denotes the rank of Lieutenant

9 Colonel.

10 Q. And how did you know that his name was Milan Ivancic?

11 A. After that, he introduced himself. When he was in the room, he

12 said, "My name is so and so." I don't know whether that is his name or

13 not.

14 Q. And did you find out that night where he was based?

15 A. At Velecevo.

16 Q. And you also mentioned that you saw a Petko Cancar in the room.

17 Did you know him from before that night?

18 A. I knew him by sight. I saw him once in Sarajevo. I did not know

19 him personally. I had no contacts with him because the nature of my work

20 did not require that. I know that he was some kind of a politician in the

21 municipal structures. I also know that he was in the SDS party.

22 Q. You also mentioned that there was a physician in the room. Did

23 you know his name?

24 A. Yes -- no. I don't know. He was a medium-height man, a man of

25 medium height, plumpish, with pimples. I don't know his name but they did

Page 3127

1 address him as "Doctor."

2 JUDGE HUNT: There was a doctor before who had pimples who was

3 skinny. This is a different one, is it?

4 MR. SMITH: We are not completely sure, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Having interrupted you, why are we spending so much

6 time on this particular incident? Is it for some other case?

7 MR. SMITH: It's for this case, Your Honour, in terms of showing

8 the combination of the military and the civil government and how they

9 worked together, and more so for the widespread and systematic aspect of

10 the case.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Upon the civilian population?

12 MR. SMITH: Yes.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, this man wasn't a civilian.

14 MR. SMITH: This witness? No, no, but just in terms of --

15 JUDGE HUNT: I can understand the relevance of it but I'm

16 wondering why it is necessary to spend so much time on it. Why don't we

17 get into the KP Dom, with which we really are concerned?

18 MR. SMITH: Well, that's where we are about to head right now,

19 Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank heavens for that. Thank you.


22 Q. And what time did you leave the Velecevo prison that night?

23 A. Sometime before 2.00 at night, and I arrived at the KP Dom a bit

24 after 3.00, about ten past 3.00.

25 Q. And who took you there?

Page 3128












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Page 3129

1 A. I was taken there by two men I did not know, and a driver, a

2 driver who drove me, who drove me to Velecevo.

3 Q. The two men, were they from Velecevo, that took you there?

4 A. Yes, from Velecevo.

5 Q. You mentioned that two White Eagles took you to Velecevo. Did

6 they also escort you to the KP Dom, or do you not know?

7 A. No, these are different ones, different.

8 Q. And when you arrived at the KP Dom, what did you see on the

9 outside of the building?

10 A. In front of the building, at the very entrance, there was a bus

11 full of women and children. I was on one side, and on the other side,

12 next to me, was this driver. There were two men who I did not know.

13 There was Dida and Vlado. There were three other men. Later on, I found

14 out that they were from the KP Dom. Among them was Krnojelac as well.

15 Q. This person that you mentioned as Krnojelac, when did you learn --

16 did you know him from before, before you saw him out the front of the KP

17 Dom?

18 A. Yes, I did not.

19 Q. And when did you learn this person's name?

20 A. I learned it when I entered the KP Dom, the room.

21 Q. And did this man tell you his name?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when he told you his name, how did you believe it was spelled,

24 from how he stated it?

25 A. Well, that is Krnojevac. That was my understanding then, and

Page 3130

1 that's how I remembered that last name.

2 Q. And did this Krnojevac, did he tell you his first name?

3 A. Krnojevac, Mico. However, Krnojelac Milorad is his real name, was

4 his real name. At that time, I thought it was Mico Krnojevac.

5 Q. Just for the transcript, could you spell the name that this person

6 told you, what his surname was?

7 A. K-r-n-o-j-e-v-a-c.

8 Q. And when you arrived at the entrance at the front of the KP Dom,

9 and you saw this bus, I think with women and children in it, were they the

10 refugees from Filipovici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And were they on the bus or were they outside of it?

13 A. On the bus.

14 Q. And your soldiers, did you know where they were at that stage?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And where was this Krnojevac and this Dida and Vlado? Where were

17 they in relation to the entrance to the KP Dom when you arrived?

18 A. They were three to four metres away from the entrance into the

19 room of the KP Dom. There was a heated debate and there was shooting into

20 the air. Dida then asked those three, or rather said that if he was not

21 paid on that day, that he would kill the entire bus, that he would take it

22 down below the hospital and kill all the refugees. One of these three

23 from the KP Dom said Dida had been intoxicated, and Vlado was standing

24 next to him and trying to pacify him. One of those three, probably

25 Krnojevac, said, "Ask the boss about taking the bus. Use your Motorola."

Page 3131

1 Dida's brother, Vlado, grabbed Dida by the hand in which he held

2 his Motorola, telling him not to call because he would get into trouble

3 with the boss. After that, when he saw that he should not call, they set

4 out towards the entrance of the KP Dom and the bus with the refugees

5 remained outside.

6 Q. Who was doing the shooting?

7 A. Dida. Dida. Dida was doing the shooting. He was shooting into

8 the air.

9 Q. And about how long did this discussion go on for?

10 A. Very briefly. Five minutes perhaps, at maximum.

11 Q. And what happened at the end of this discussion? Where did you

12 go?

13 A. At the end of this discussion it was said, it was proposed -- I

14 mean, these people from the KP Dom said, "Let's go inside and we'll

15 discuss this." They withdrew into a room that in my view was the office

16 of the warden of the KP Dom.

17 Q. And was this room on the ground floor or on a floor above it?

18 A. Ground floor. Ground floor.

19 Q. And as you went into the entrance to the KP Dom, did you turn

20 right or left to get to this room?

21 A. Right. Right. We turned to the right, and this room was on the

22 left, the first room on the left.

23 Q. And do you remember who said, "Let's go inside"?

24 A. One of those three from the KP Dom.

25 Q. And I think you mentioned that Krnojevac, you believed, was from

Page 3132

1 the KP Dom. The other two, did you know their names?

2 A. I did not know their names, but they were present throughout this

3 conversation. They were there, the KP Dom, in the office, together with

4 Krnojevac, during those moments while I was present.

5 Q. This Krnojevac, did he acknowledge you whilst the discussion was

6 being had between himself, the other two, and Dida and Vlado, outside of

7 the KP Dom?

8 A. Well, of course he was aware of the entire situation. As soon as

9 it was decided not to take the bus, or rather when Dida said that he will

10 tell the driver to take the bus below the hospital and that he would kill

11 all of them, and then he was told he should call the boss, there was the

12 possibility of negotiating.

13 Q. And these two men that took you from Velecevo to the KP Dom, what

14 happened to them?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. And when you went inside, into this office, who was in there? I

17 think you mentioned Krnojevac, the other two men. And who else?

18 A. Dida and Vlado and I.

19 Q. And what happened when you were inside this office?

20 A. A heated debate started concerning the refugees and what should be

21 done and whether that would be paid or not. Dida was very angry. Vlado

22 tried to pacify him. As far as I can remember, he even fired a burst of

23 gunfire through the window in his anger. He said, "What do we need this

24 balija here for?" In order for me not to get killed, or even something

25 worse than that, then Krnojevac said that I should be put into the third

Page 3133

1 room, away from his office, until this situation calmed down.

2 Q. And was that third room on the same floor as the office you went

3 into?

4 A. Yes. Yes. Also on the left-hand side. This was a room where

5 there were big tables for dining. I was on my own.

6 Q. And you said the heated debate continued in this office when you

7 first arrived. Who was the debate between?

8 A. Krnojevac, Dida, Vlado, and two of these men who were from the KP

9 Dom. Those were the people concerned. Nobody else was there.

10 Q. And whilst you were in that office on the first occasion, was the

11 phone ringing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was anyone answering the phone?

14 A. No. For the most part, telephone lines were interrupted then, as

15 far as I can remember.

16 Q. And about how long did this heated debate take before you were

17 taken out of the room?

18 A. Well, about seven or eight minutes while I was present, and after

19 that, I was taken out. Afterwards, only clamouring could be heard, but I

20 can't give you anything in terms of time.

21 Q. You mentioned that Krnojevac suggested that you should be put into

22 the third room. Did someone take you there or did Krnojevac take you

23 there? How did you get there?

24 A. No. No. One of his men, one of the men who was in the office.

25 Q. And these other two men, what were they wearing? Do you remember?

Page 3134

1 A. Civilian clothes. They had civilian clothes, as far as I can

2 remember.

3 Q. And what was Krnojevac wearing?

4 A. As far as I can remember, he wore a military uniform,

5 olive-green/grey.

6 Q. And you said that these three men, including Krnojevac, seemed to

7 come from the KP Dom. Were you able to say who was more superior out of

8 the three, if at all?

9 A. Well, I could. I think that Krnojevac was at the highest level

10 compared to those two, because I saw that they obeyed his orders.

11 Q. And what orders are you referring to? You mentioned that he said

12 that you should be taken to another room and you were taken by one of

13 those men. Are there any other orders that you're referring to?

14 A. Well, I saw that when they tried to pacify Dida, that they were

15 helping their boss in this pacification, et cetera. I also think that

16 since they were sitting on the side, that they, at any rate, are lower

17 down the ladder than Krnojelac.

18 Q. And when you were taken into this second room, about how long were

19 you there?

20 A. Well, sometime around 6.00, so it was about 40 minutes,

21 approximately.

22 Q. And at some time were you called back to the office that Krnojevac

23 was in?

24 A. Yes. I was called back and then I was offered coffee. And then

25 Krnojevac said that he knew both brothers, that he was a mathematics

Page 3135

1 teacher, that he knew them but not me, because I came to Foca very

2 seldom. He also said that he had two sons and that he was working there.

3 Q. Did he say what those two sons did?

4 A. No.

5 Q. When did Krnojevac introduce himself that evening or that morning

6 to you?

7 A. I think it was over coffee.

8 Q. And when you had coffee with Krnojevac, was anyone else in the

9 room?

10 A. Those two men of his who were sitting there. From time to time,

11 somebody would walk in and go out, and things like that.

12 Q. And Dida and Vlado, where were they at this time?

13 A. I don't know. After this pacification, after this situation that

14 took place in the office, I did not see them after that.

15 Q. And did Krnojevac mention anything about the refugees whilst you

16 were having coffee?

17 A. Krnojevac said that the refugees had entered the KP Dom, that they

18 were in the KP Dom, and he said that since there were a lot of small

19 children, that "I tried to go to Velecevo to get them milk." Those are

20 his words. I heard -- while I was in the room that night, I could hear

21 footsteps, but I did not think that they were getting in and that they

22 would be accommodated there.

23 MR. SMITH: I believe it's time, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 11.30.

25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

Page 3136

1 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Witness, before the break, you mentioned that about 6.00 in the

5 morning, you were invited back to the office of Krnojevac and you had a

6 coffee with this person, and the other, the two men you felt were his

7 subordinates were in that room. And you mentioned that he stated to you

8 who he was and that he was a math teacher and he had two sons, that he

9 knew your brothers, and that he tried to get some milk for the children,

10 the women and children. And you also said that he entered -- that the

11 women -- he said that the women and children had entered the KP Dom. Did

12 he say what was going to happen to you?

13 A. He said -- he then said that soldiers and I would be put up in a

14 part of the KP Dom in the restaurant, or rather above the restaurant in

15 the KP Dom.

16 Q. And was that restaurant inside the KP Dom or outside of the KP

17 Dom?

18 A. Outside the KP Dom, but with guards. I mean, there were guards

19 around the restaurant.

20 Q. And did he tell you how long you were going to stay there, why you

21 were being detained?

22 A. He said -- he did not say how long we were going to stay, and what

23 -- and that it would be decided what would happen to us.

24 Q. And just from your observations of Krnojevac that morning, what

25 did you think his role was at the KP Dom, just from your observations?

Page 3137

1 A. From my observations, it was a person who must have been one of

2 the front men in the KP Dom.

3 Q. And when you say "front men," what do you mean by that?

4 A. I mean one of chief persons, main chiefs in the KP Dom.

5 Q. And what led you to that conclusion?

6 A. To that conclusion led me the fact that since he put -- put the

7 refugees in the KP Dom, and if he could guarantee that he would do certain

8 things, and since he frequently went to Velecevo because of the farm -

9 that is what he said - I thought that was the man.

10 Q. What did he say he did at Velecevo?

11 A. He said he was going to the farm, to supply that area with food,

12 and that he had some appointments up there at Velecevo.

13 Q. And when you were invited back into the room for coffee with

14 Krnojevac and these two other men, what do you think the purpose of that

15 discussion was, from what was said between both of you? What do you think

16 Krnojevac's purpose was?

17 A. I think Krnojevac's purpose was to inform me, because this

18 Lieutenant Colonel had said that the soldiers had to be set free and sent

19 home. And his purpose was to try to learn what would happen next, what

20 would happen to the refugees, according to the orders of this Lieutenant

21 Colonel, what would happen next to the soldiers, what would happen next to

22 us.

23 Q. Who informed you that the Lieutenant Colonel had said that -- I

24 think you said the Lieutenant Colonel said that the soldiers had to be set

25 free; is that right?

Page 3138

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. And when you -- which Lieutenant Colonel are you referring to?

3 A. That one, Ivanic [as interpreted].

4 Q. Did he tell you that or did Krnojevac tell you that?

5 A. He told me that. I did not mention it in my statement, but he

6 told me when we were up there at Velecevo. He said that the soldiers

7 would be set free, that they were soldiers who had completed their

8 military service and that they should go back home.

9 Q. And what was the particular mood of this discussion between

10 yourself and Krnojevac that morning?

11 A. The mood was that of giving orders. Since he said, "Commander

12 Miro Stanic, I'm going back to Velecevo. You should take this man to

13 court in Sarajevo. You are to set refugees free and send the soldiers

14 back home."

15 Q. Sorry, I meant the mood of the discussion between yourself and

16 Krnojevac that morning, when he was giving information about himself and

17 what would happen to the refugees and the soldiers.

18 A. Regular, regular conversation.

19 Q. And how did the discussion end, the one in which you had the

20 coffee?

21 A. That conversation ended by my going back to that room again, and

22 after that, around 7.00, they came to fetch me again because my brother

23 from Sarajevo had called by telephone, and Krnojevac said, "Here is your

24 brother. Talk to your brother. Here's your brother. And tell him, let

25 him tell you that he is safe and sound," because in Sarajevo, there has

Page 3139












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Page 3140












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Page 3141

1 already been information that the barracks had been set on fire, that the

2 Green Berets had taken the barracks and that I had been taken in an

3 unknown direction.

4 Q. And the barracks you're referring to is the warehouse at

5 Filipovici, is that correct?

6 A. The depot, yes, yes.

7 Q. And who came to this other room that you were in to take you into

8 the office where Krnojevac was?

9 A. That man, the man who was sitting with Krnojelac.

10 Q. And what did you say to your brother?

11 A. That I was safe and sound, and he said, "What are you doing in the

12 KP Dom?" "I don't know." "We have been notified in Sarajevo," he said,

13 "that the Green Berets had taken the warehouse, in the media, and that

14 most men had been killed." And that was the end of the conversation

15 between my brother and me.

16 Q. And after the phone call, was there any discussion between

17 yourself and Krnojevac?

18 A. No. As far as I can remember, except that the soldiers and I

19 would be put up in the restaurant.

20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I would just ask that P61A be placed in

21 front of the witness. We have a copy here. It's the plan of the

22 administration building.

23 Q. Witness, if you look at this plan, this is the plan of the KP Dom,

24 the building at the front and the detention facilities for the prisoners

25 at the back. Is that plan familiar to you?

Page 3142

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Can you point out with the pointer the entrance that you went into

3 that night, of the KP Dom?

4 A. [Indicates]

5 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he indicates the left-hand entrance to

6 the administration building.

7 Q. Can you point out with the pointer the room, the office that you

8 went into on the first occasion with Dida, Vlado, Krnojevac, and the other

9 two men?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, he indicates the first office to the

12 right of the entrance.

13 Q. And can you indicate the other room that you were taken to for

14 that longer period of time before you were asked back for a coffee?

15 A. [Indicates]

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the third office

17 from the right, and it's Soba number 2.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

19 MR. SMITH: Thank you. We're finished with that map now.

20 Q. And you said that Krnojevac told you that yourself and the

21 soldiers would be put up into the restaurant. You said the restaurant was

22 outside the KP Dom. I will show you a photograph, and can you tell me

23 whether or not you see the restaurant which you were placed inside - the

24 top one, thanks - that morning?

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 3143

1 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, this is Exhibit P18 and it's the top

2 photograph. I think it's 00407443 - sorry - 42. And the witness

3 indicates with the pointer the white building on the right-hand side

4 with -- it's difficult to see on that one, but the word "restaurant" on

5 it.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Immediately to the right of the bridge.

7 MR. SMITH: That's correct.

8 We're finished with that photograph now. Thank you.

9 Q. Did Krnojevac leave with you as you left the administration

10 building?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who else left with you?

13 A. His men, one of his men - dark, youngish - one who was in his

14 office.

15 Q. And were you taken to the restaurant?

16 A. I started to the restaurant with him, and Krnojevac went in a car

17 towards Foca and he said, "I'm off to the farm."

18 Q. I'm not sure whether I asked you this question earlier, but what

19 was Krnojevac wearing during this night?

20 A. Olive-green/grey uniform, working uniform.

21 Q. Is this a military uniform or a civilian uniform?

22 A. Military. That's the military uniform.

23 Q. And is this the uniform of the JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was there any insignia on this uniform?

Page 3144

1 A. No. No. I didn't see any.

2 Q. And do you know whether Krnojevac had a firearm on his uniform

3 that night?

4 A. He did, yes.

5 Q. And what type of firearm was it?

6 A. He had a belt and a pistol on the right-hand side, in a holster.

7 Q. And you said that you were taken to this restaurant. Were your

8 soldiers that were at Filipovici, were they at the restaurant at that

9 stage?

10 A. They were already.

11 Q. And this restaurant wasn't being used as a restaurant at that

12 time; is that correct?

13 A. The lower part was once used as a restaurant, but I did not see

14 what the lower part was being used for. And the upper floor were bedrooms

15 where people could sleep in.

16 Q. And that's where you were kept; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And the soldiers as well?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After you saw Krnojevac that morning, about 7.00 that morning, did

21 you ever see him again?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see him on that day or sometime later?

24 A. The next day.

25 Q. You mentioned that you were taken to the KP Dom on the early

Page 3145

1 morning of the 27th. Do you mean, then, that you saw Krnojevac on the

2 28th?

3 A. The 28th. Yes, the 28th.

4 Q. And how did you get to see him?

5 A. Well, he came to the room where I was and said that the refugees

6 would be allowed to go during the day, that he knew nothing about me and

7 the soldiers, and that the Lieutenant Colonel would try to settle the

8 matter, and that he had provided the milk for refugees' children. As

9 these soldiers were there, I asked when will they go home, but he could

10 not give me any answer.

11 Q. And when he said that the Lieutenant Colonel will sort out the

12 matter in relation to the soldiers, did he say which Lieutenant Colonel?

13 A. That one that was at Velecevo, Ivanic [as interpreted]; Milan

14 Ivanic [as interpreted].

15 Q. And what was he wearing when you spoke to him on this day?

16 A. Civilian.

17 Q. And how long did this discussion last?

18 A. Some 15 minutes.

19 Q. And from the way he spoke, could you work out the reason why he

20 approached you and advised you of what was happening to the refugees?

21 A. Well, I think that the order of Lieutenant Colonel Ivanic

22 [as interpreted] and the Yugoslav People's Army was still in force, and I

23 thought that some orders had to be complied with. Besides, I thought that

24 what Lieutenant Colonel Ivanic [as interpreted] had said in front of Miro

25 Stanic, that some day, sooner or later, it would be revealed what

Page 3146

1 had happened to the refugees and me. I think that was the reason why he

2 did what he did.

3 Q. In the statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, you

4 mentioned that the time that you saw Krnojevac in relation to this

5 incident was on the 27th of April, the same day that you were taken to the

6 restaurant. Can you explain that?

7 A. I can explain it. On the 27th, at 3.00 in the morning, I was

8 brought to the KP Dom.

9 Q. The question I'm asking you is: Can you explain why it appears in

10 the statement that you saw Krnojevac at the restaurant on the 27th and

11 today you've mentioned that you saw him on the 28th?

12 A. The statement is not correct. The date is not correct. I didn't

13 look at the statement, because the refugees were set free the next day,

14 and it was the next day that I saw Krnojevac, on the 28th.

15 Q. After seeing Krnojevac at the restaurant on this day, have you

16 ever seen him again?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And about how old was this Milorad Krnojevac?

19 A. Forty-ish.

20 Q. And what colour was his hair?

21 A. Well, what shall I say? Light, light -- light brown, and some

22 white hair. That is, brown hair with white hairs, mixed with white hairs.

23 Q. And was it long or short, the hair?

24 A. Short, short.

25 Q. And was it a full head of hair? Was it slightly receding or how

Page 3147

1 was it?

2 A. Well, his hair was receding slightly and, to be quite honest, he

3 didn't have much hair. His hair was receding quite a lot.

4 Q. And do you know how tall he was in relation to your height?

5 A. Well, about -- I'm 180 and he is also somewhere around that.

6 Q. And what type of build did he have? Fat, thin?

7 A. Medium, medium. Neither fat nor thin.

8 Q. And can you remember anything particular other than that about his

9 appearance?

10 A. Well, he had round cheeks, regular nose, and I don't remember

11 anything else.

12 Q. Would you be able to recognise this person if you saw him again?

13 A. I'm not sure I could do it.

14 Q. In your first statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, your

15 meetings with this Milorad Krnojevac weren't mentioned, but they were

16 mentioned in your second statement. Why is that? Why were they not

17 mentioned in the first statement?

18 A. On the basis of statements by men who interrogated me about what I

19 had said, that is talked. They took out some fragments and insisted on

20 fragments, insisting that that had been the way that I had put it.

21 Q. Sorry, I'm not clear, but in your first statement, the meetings

22 with Krnojevac were not mentioned. Why is that? The first statement you

23 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor.

24 A. As far as I can remember, I did give it, but -- as far as I can

25 remember, I did mention this detail, and they said, "Well, sign this,

Page 3148

1 because this is what interests us." And I told the whole story as I am

2 telling it now in court, except that some details came back to me, or they

3 told me to reflect more about some other details, to see if they were

4 right or not, because after a long time has passed and one forgets. And

5 besides, whenever you are in a situation, when you're afraid ...

6 Q. Go on.

7 A. Whenever you are in a situation when you are afraid, one simply

8 doesn't see a whole ocean of things. All he thinks about is how to keep

9 his life. He doesn't really pay much attention to what somebody looks

10 like and things like that.

11 Q. How long did you stay in this restaurant building? For about how

12 many days?

13 A. Until the 5th of May.

14 Q. And whilst you were at that restaurant building, were you taken

15 for interrogations at Velecevo?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And how often were you taken over that period?

18 A. Practically every day.

19 Q. And what questions were being asked of you, very briefly, in those

20 interrogations?

21 A. To tell you very briefly: Who I cooperated with, how much I

22 helped Muslims in terms of ammunition, weapons, food, clothes, footwear

23 and sanitary supplies, and also who these people who were around the

24 warehouse were.

25 Q. And were you ever beaten during those interrogations at Velecevo?

Page 3149

1 A. Yes, yes. I was beaten once at the captain's. He was basically a

2 bald man. I don't know who this man was, his bodyguard or something.

3 After we talked, after there were lots of questions, when I was asked how

4 many weapons I had given and food and things like that, then he said,

5 "You're going to tell us everything." And he hit me so bad that I simply

6 flew into the corner. In the meantime, a few minutes later, five or six

7 minutes later, Lieutenant Colonel Ivanic [as interpreted] came, and when

8 he saw what had happened, he said he wasn't supposed to do that kind of

9 thing to me.

10 Most times when I went out of the KP Dom, they drove me in a

11 jeep. Sometimes they just gave me a ride through Foca so that the people

12 who had remained would realise, I guess --

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honour, I don't

14 know -- I don't know whether the Prosecutor has the right to interrupt the

15 witness. The witness started to talk and he had not even finished his

16 sentence and he was given the sign to stop. He didn't finish.

17 JUDGE HUNT: He had in fact, I think, given four or five

18 sentences. I think that an examiner is entitled, if he feels that the

19 witness is straying, to bring him back to the subject, if that's what you

20 were doing, Mr. Smith.

21 MR. SMITH: That was the only purpose, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE HUNT: The actual terms of your interruption don't appear in

23 the transcript, but that is what I thought you were doing at the time.

24 MR. SMITH: Yes, that's correct.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, that is allowed.

Page 3150

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I did

2 not think that the Prosecutor had had any ill intentions or something like

3 that. I just wondered how the witness would finish his sentence. The

4 Defence is not suspicious in any way. We are aware of the good intentions

5 involved, but we just wondered how the witness would finish his sentence.

6 JUDGE HUNT: If you think that it's relevant in some way, you can

7 ask him in cross-examination. And you have the ability there to ask

8 leading questions.

9 Yes, Mr. Smith.

10 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Who was conducting the interrogations at Velecevo? From what

12 military unit were these people from or this person from?

13 A. That person was -- was in Velecevo. He had a uniform of the

14 Yugoslav People's Army. He was a balding man. He cooperated together

15 with the others. I don't know what post he held or what his position was

16 within the formation concerned, within the establishment. I only know

17 that he was a captain.

18 Q. And whilst you were at the restaurant, who guarded it, for this

19 nine-day period?

20 A. That restaurant, I mean there was a duty man there. There were

21 two policemen in front in a kiosk. On three sides, there were machine-gun

22 nests. On the left-hand side, there was one facing the bridge, and the

23 other one was by the upper gate, and the third one was to the left of the

24 restaurant. Those machine-gun nests actually had sacks surrounding them,

25 and they were manned by four to six men, depending on the situation

Page 3151












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Page 3152

1 involved.

2 Q. And these policemen that were in front, in a kiosk, were they

3 policemen from the town of Foca or were they attached to the KP Dom?

4 A. These were men from the KP Dom, and often they were joined by some

5 of the policemen from town. My room was in such a position that I could

6 not see very well whether these were policemen from the KP Dom or from

7 town. I can't really tell you that. For the most part, it was two or

8 three men, so it would be someone from the KP Dom and then they would be

9 joined by someone from town.

10 Q. And --

11 A. They had blue uniforms.

12 Q. On the 5th of May, you stated that you left the restaurant, and

13 were you taken to the command centre of the JNA in Ustikolina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And how long were you kept there?

16 A. Until the 15th of May.

17 Q. And did you speak to Lieutenant Colonel Milan Ivancic whilst you

18 were at Ustikolina, at the command centre?

19 A. He came around the 10th, 10th of May, to tell me that I would be

20 taken to court in Belgrade. While as far as the soldiers are concerned, a

21 bus came on the 7th of May and transferred them to Titograd, all those

22 soldiers except for two soldiers who were from Kosovo.

23 Q. And did Lieutenant Colonel Ivancic tell you about what was

24 happening to the JNA, the JNA units at Ustikolina?

25 A. No.

Page 3153

1 Q. Did the JNA units at Ustikolina leave at this period?

2 A. Well, most did and -- most had left and it was Serb soldiers who

3 came in. It was already on the 7th that the barracks were handed over.

4 That's when the barracks were handed over, so that the reservists and the

5 Serb soldiers would be there.

6 Q. So the barracks were handed over to Serb forces; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And whilst you were at Ustikolina, you were beaten on one

9 occasion; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, on the 13th of May, because on the 13th of May the

11 ammunitions and explosives storage was transferred. Ammunition and

12 explosive devices were taken away every day in vehicles with Niksic

13 licence plates, and on the 13th of May the entire warehouse had definitely

14 been removed, all the ammunition and the mines and explosive devices.

15 They had a banquet in a restaurant near the warehouse, and then

16 they said that I could go there together with them to this banquet.

17 Thanks to a soldier, an ethnic Serb who had already been at the front line

18 in the area of Dubrovnik - his first name was Obrad - he said to me, "It's

19 better for you to get killed than to go up there and get massacred." I

20 didn't go there. I was beaten, I was trampled upon, I was dragged around,

21 so that I could go up there after all, but when they realised that he was

22 a full-blooded person and that things could not be done that way, they

23 returned me to the office of commander Zoran.

24 Q. And was it a soldier that beat you or a civilian?

25 A. Two soldiers from the military police.

Page 3154

1 Q. And on the 15th of May you went to the Velecevo prison, and then

2 from there you went to Belgrade; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, with an escort in Velecevo, thanks to the Lieutenant Colonel,

4 who said I had to go on the 15th to Belgrade; I'm not a citizen of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina; if I don't go on the 15th, I'll be a war criminal. He

6 said that I should be given an escort and a certificate, which I got, that

7 I was going to court to Belgrade. So I was escorted via Scepan Polje to

8 Titograd, and then yet another escort took me from Titograd to Belgrade.

9 Q. And you stayed in Belgrade for a number of days and then you left

10 to a third country; is that correct? Just yes or no will do.

11 A. Well, yes.

12 Q. I'd now like to ask you a few questions about the theoretical and

13 practical military training that a JNA reserve officer of the rank Captain

14 First Class would require to hold that rank in the former JNA system.

15 First, I assume that a person of this rank would be required to do their

16 compulsory military service; is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And about how long is the compulsory military service in the JNA

19 system?

20 A. Twelve months, if it's reserve officers' school. And there are

21 other categories. If one is the sole breadwinner of one's family,

22 et cetera, then that would be taken into account.

23 Q. And assuming that person didn't join the active forces after the

24 compulsory training, about how long would it take in years to reach the

25 rank of Captain First Class, on average?

Page 3155

1 A. In the reserve forces, the minimum would be 10 to 12 years.

2 Q. And to reach that rank, what ranks would a person normally hold to

3 get to that rank? What ranks would he go through, or she?

4 A. He would have to be an officer, to have an officer's rank; that is

5 to say, he would have to finish reserve officer's school and in this way

6 become a Sergeant. Then after that, after completing compulsory military

7 service, the first military exercise that would be organised on a

8 particular Territorial Defence territory, if one made a good effort on

9 that occasion, then this person could become Second Lieutenant. Then a

10 minimum of three years is required, with a considerable effort involved,

11 to become Lieutenant; and then at least three or four years to get the

12 rank of Captain, with major efforts involved; and then three to four years

13 in order to get the rank of Captain First Class.

14 Perhaps now that I sum all of this up, actually even more time

15 than 12 years is required. However, if a person makes a lot of effort

16 during these exercises and gives a contribution to an army, to a

17 Territorial Defence, then such a person can be promoted much faster. It

18 depends on the proposals given by military authorities and civilian

19 authorities.

20 Q. And to reach that rank of Captain First Class, you stated that it

21 may take on average about 12 years, sometimes faster. Would that person

22 have to do training, either practical or theoretical, every year, or not?

23 A. Every year there was a theoretical and practical training. If a

24 man wanted to get promoted faster, then more practical and theoretical

25 training was required.

Page 3156

1 Q. And about how much training, in days or weeks or months, would be

2 required each year to reach that rank of Captain First Class?

3 A. Well, training would take up to one month's time, twenty days to

4 one month. Then some courses were involved, and then new knowledge had to

5 be acquired. Depending on the actual service involved, some training

6 would go on for forty days or two months or even up to three months. It

7 would be a minimal requirement to go out into the field at least once a

8 year and to acquire new knowledge during the year at least once or twice.

9 If a person wanted to be promoted faster, then it would have to be more

10 than that; three or four times.

11 Q. And what type of theoretical training would a Captain First Class

12 have received by the time they reached that rank?

13 A. Well, it depends on the arms and services involved. It depends

14 what service is involved and what a person would have to learn in order to

15 be able to get a promotion earlier. In order to command a company or a

16 squad, there is a lesser rank involved. For a company, it can be a

17 Captain First Class. For battalion, it has to be a Major and higher ranks

18 like that. However, it is all set in the rules who can command which unit

19 of soldiers.

20 Q. And about how many men would be in a company?

21 A. Well, it depends. It varies from one company to another. There

22 are the regulations of the Yugoslav People's Army, the former Yugoslav

23 People's Army, and then there are regulations that people later

24 supplemented. One hundred men, one hundred men are -- one hundred men

25 would be a company, whereas two hundred men would mean a battalion, if you

Page 3157

1 were to look at the situation that prevailed during the war.

2 Q. In terms of theory, would a Captain First Class receive

3 instruction about the Geneva Conventions and, in particular, treatment of

4 prisoners of war and civilians?

5 A. Well, all active military personnel were duty-bound as they

6 entered active military service to abide by the Geneva Conventions in

7 their work. The Territorial Defence also had to be based on those

8 principles, that is to say, civil defence. Active military personnel had

9 to give an oath to that effect, whereas the reserve force, the Territorial

10 Defence, involving persons who had done their compulsory military service,

11 they were also duty-bound to do so, but whether they actually gave an

12 oath, that depended from one barracks to another. However, whoever had

13 done his military service had to abide by the Geneva Conventions.

14 Q. Yes. But the question is, a reserve Captain First Class, would he

15 have received a specific training about the Geneva Conventions and the

16 treatment of prisoners and civilians in times of war, or not?

17 A. He had to tell his soldiers who were reservists how to treat

18 prisoners of war and how to deal with such matters, et cetera. He would

19 have to lecture for a certain number of hours on those subjects.

20 Q. Once a person had reached the rank of Captain, reserve Captain

21 First Class, would there be update training required each year after that,

22 or not?

23 A. Yes, every year, every year, there has to be update training,

24 because one has to keep abreast within the service where one was. New

25 knowledge is acquired during the year. That Captain First Class is either

Page 3158

1 going to be involved in practical training or theoretical training only

2 during the course of one year. That would depend really on what the

3 command decided, what the Territorial Defence headquarters decided, and it

4 varied from one place to another.

5 Q. And would it be possible for a person of any rank, but

6 particularly a Captain First Class, to simply resign from their post in

7 the JNA system?

8 A. In the system of the JNA, there is no possibility for anyone to

9 resign. A person has to be either totally degraded physically or to have

10 something wrong with his mind or, perhaps, it would be a requirement put

11 forth by the Territorial Defence to be transferred to the civil defence.

12 So it was just like with holding any regular job, according to the

13 previous legislation. If you left, just left your job, you'd have to go

14 to prison.

15 Q. But you would be relieved of your obligations if you reached a

16 certain age limit, I assume.

17 A. Well, it depended on the rank concerned, but it was between the

18 age of 62 and 65. Everybody had to retire except for the rank of

19 General. Although a General would retire, he would still be within the

20 composition of the Territorial Defence.

21 Q. And what is the distinction between the rank of Captain and

22 Captain First Class, in terms of what would be required to move from the

23 Captain to the First Class rank?

24 A. For someone to get the rank of Captain First Class, it is

25 necessary for the personnel service within the active military personnel,

Page 3159

1 that is to say the federal Secretariat for National Defence, they would

2 have to decide. And for the TO, it would be the headquarters of the

3 Territorial Defence that would have to decide. One would have to look at

4 every candidate and see whether a person, a candidate of particular ethnic

5 group -- there would have to be different ethnic groups represented

6 depending on the actual population figures within that territory. So it

7 depended on the ethnic composition of that territory as well.

8 Q. On the uniform of the JNA officer, how would you signify, how

9 would it be signified that someone is a Captain and someone is a Captain

10 First Class?

11 A. A Captain would have three golden stars, three yellow stars, on

12 his epaulettes, and a Captain First Class would have four stars.

13 Higher-ranking officers would have golden braid around the epaulette.

14 When I say "higher-ranking officers," I'm referring to the level of Major

15 onwards.

16 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic?

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:

20 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I am Miroslav Vasic and I'm one of the

21 counsel for the accused Milorad Krnojelac.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. We speak the same language, so will you please wait a second after

24 you hear my question so as to leave time for interpreters to complete the

25 interpretation of my question and so that everybody could hear both

Page 3160

1 questions and answers, to avoid overlapping.

2 A. Thank you.

3 Q. Today, when asked by my learned friend, you said that you received

4 -- you had received orders to transfer to Pilipovici and that you went to

5 serve there. Was that the order of the federal Secretariat for National

6 Defence?

7 A. It was.

8 Q. And did -- was the -- was Veljko Kadijevic at that time the head

9 of the federal Secretariat for National Defence?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Are you aware that the presidency of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 3rd of April, 1992, ordered the mobilisation of

13 the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. I am not aware of that.

15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me if, in addition to those individuals

16 you mentioned today, there were, (redacted)

17 (redacted), also people from villages around Foca, Ustikolina, Pilipovici?

18 Was there also the SDA's Crisis Staff at some point in time?

19 A. No. There was a Crisis Staff in Ustikolina, and that was the only

20 one.

21 Q. Thank you. And whose Crisis Staff was it in Ustikolina?

22 A. It moved house from Foca and the Crisis Staff came to Ustikolina,

23 and according to what I was told, from the lower barracks.

24 Q. Whose Crisis Staff; the SDA's?

25 A. SDA's.

Page 3161

1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when did the Crisis Staff of the SDA

2 come to Ustikolina and how long did they stay there?

3 A. I have just told you, from what I learned from the -- and that was

4 that they had come from the lower barracks but when and how many people, I

5 don't know. But after the fall of Foca.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Today, you told us what happened when the White

7 Eagles came to the depot (redacted). You said that you were

8 forced to say where the refugees were. However, in your first statement

9 that you gave to the OTP, 1996, you stated that the White Eagles had found

10 them themselves, that it was not you who told them where they were, and

11 I'd like to know which of the two is true; what you told us today or what

12 you said in your first statement?

13 A. What I said to you today, those were moments, the White Eagles

14 were already all over the warehouse, and I have just said that was the

15 time when Dida said, "I'll set your warehouse on fire unless you tell me,"

16 and then I told them where and then he went there.

17 Q. Yes, thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify that thing to

18 see which of the two was true. When you left Filipovici, you mentioned

19 today that you were exposed to the sniper fire, the whole column. Can you

20 tell us who were the snipers, to your knowledge?

21 A. When the column started, we reached the intersection and a small

22 Fiat was already burning there and then, upon Dida's orders -- can

23 somebody fire from the big column, because those sniper fired. But in

24 that part, from which they indicated the sniper fire had come from, that

25 was a territory already taken by the White Eagles, so sniper fire could be

Page 3162












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Page 3163

1 open from somebody who had remained behind in the rear as prisoner or the

2 units which had taken that part of the territory, and that part of the

3 territory had already been captured by the White Eagles.

4 Q. You think that it was possible that the units of the same

5 formation fired at each other?

6 A. I can only make an assumption, and that is that in their -- in the

7 command system of the paramilitary units, were such that people were being

8 trained as snipers, it could also be. Now, I don't know how paramilitary

9 formations train their men.

10 Q. Thank you. Today, in response to my learned friend, you said that

11 when you arrived in Velecevo, that you were taken over by persons who you

12 said were policemen. Were they military policemen?

13 A. No, not the military policemen. It was the police which was in

14 the Velecevo compound, together with the guards there, and, you know, in

15 such facilities, in such military facilities, you don't have -- you don't

16 have guards, you have sentries. It is a military post. And there is also

17 a team of guards who are military police, who bring in, who take people

18 under custody.

19 Q. So these people, this team, were the members of the military

20 police or sentries?

21 A. Two. There were two sentries who turned me over to the military

22 police who then took me inside the building.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. That is what I wanted to clarify. You said today

24 that during your stay in Velecevo, you saw maps scattered around the table

25 and one on the wall.

Page 3164

1 A. I did.

2 Q. Today, you told us that on them, you saw the formations of attack

3 and defence, but in your first statement that you gave to the OTP

4 statement in -- in the first statement to the OTP in 1996, you said that

5 you only threw a glance at those maps and that you could not describe what

6 they were showing.

7 A. Yes. I cast a cursory look at those maps, because, you know, in a

8 situation when you are captive, you cannot look properly. But I just

9 happened to see circles around some parts of the territory, then arrows,

10 indicating movement, and I saw it visually because I did not have a chance

11 to see it in detail.

12 Q. Then why did you not explain these facts to the OTP investigators

13 at the time of your first statement? Why did you say that you could not

14 describe it in detail? Why this discrepancy?

15 A. Well, let me tell you. The expression "in detail," to explain a

16 topographic map, how an attack is being carried out; and a cursory look

17 means that you only see some segments at a glance.

18 Q. Yes, I agree, sir, but you did not state those facts in the

19 statement. You did not say that you saw that.

20 A. Well, I didn't have to. I said I saw the maps.

21 Q. Thank you. In reply to my learned friend, you said today that in

22 your opinion the commander was Miro Stanic, but in your statement to the

23 OTP in 1996, you stated the following:

24 "Meanwhile, garrison commander entered the room, Lieutenant

25 Colonel Miro Ivancic -- Milan Ivancic. Milan was the general commander

Page 3165

1 for the whole area, which probably encompassed both Kalinovik and

2 Miljevina."

3 Is it true that you stated that?

4 A. I stand by my first and second statement, but you must make a

5 distinction here. The Colonel represented a formation of the Yugoslav

6 People's Army and the creation of a new army, and I do not renounce any of

7 those statements. They're both correct.

8 Q. Thank you. You said today that you had been taken to the KP Dom.

9 Were you taken there by the military police?

10 A. As I have said, I was taken in a jeep, and the jeep was driven by

11 the driver who drove me to the barracks, and there were two other men whom

12 I do not know. As it was a situation when the war was looming ahead, when

13 the war was really in the offing, then nobody has to introduce himself and

14 say whether he's military police or soldier or ...

15 Q. In the statement that you gave to the OTP in 1996, you said, "Then

16 two military policemen came and took me to the KP Dom in Foca."

17 A. Yes. At that time, I remembered; that is, at that time I believed

18 they were two military policemen, and I stand by it.

19 Q. You described today an event which happened after your arrival in

20 the KP Dom, when members of White Eagles wanted to slay the refugees who

21 were there. I will now read to you a part of your statement to OTP

22 investigators in 1998. It is ID230A, the version in B/C/S, page 2, second

23 paragraph, and it begins with "I can say ..." Towards the end of that

24 passage: "I can say that these members of the White Eagles did not

25 succeed in killing those women and children, thanks to Krnojelac." Is

Page 3166

1 that correct? Did you say this?

2 A. Well, if you listened carefully to what I testified today, I said

3 that it was possible that one of those three men -- as a matter of fact,

4 he told me -- he said, "Let me call the boss." So what it means is that I

5 thought that that man had really succeeded in saving those people. That

6 is, I think that that is how it was.

7 Q. But did that man -- "to call their boss" or "may we call our

8 boss"? Was that the formulation?

9 A. Yes. The Motorola, to dial the Motorola and call the boss, if I

10 may. And Vlado said, and I repeated it today -- Vlado then pulled Dida by

11 the hand and said that he shouldn't wake up the boss because it was rather

12 late.

13 Q. Did you say that the White Eagles and Dida and Vlado were the

14 members, had more power than this man?

15 A. No. This chief man, to my mind -- if you listened to what I said

16 today, this chief man said also that I should not be killed and brought,

17 because otherwise they would have killed me in the depot. So evidently he

18 had more power, because Dida could not do anything without his authority.

19 Q. Do you mean Lieutenant Colonel Ivanic [as interpreted]?

20 A. No. The White Eagles were not part of that formation.

21 Q. You mean the chief in command of the White Eagles?

22 A. Well, to be quite honest, I really don't know who their boss was.

23 The one who paid them, he was their boss; he commanded them.

24 Q. In your statement to OTP investigators, again on page 2 of the

25 same passage, you said: "The White Eagles had more power than Krnojelac,

Page 3167

1 but Krnojelac told them to call their superior if they could."

2 A. Well, the one who has the power to conquer a territory without the

3 knowledge, without having to ask anyone about it, without having to ask

4 anyone about it, he evidently and manifestly has more power than the one

5 who does not have to be asked.

6 Q. So this wording here is correct?

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the witness's

8 answer.

9 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreters have told us that they did not hear

10 the answer. Did you hear it, Mr. Vasic?

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The answer was

12 "Yes, correct." Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. You said today that the first room you were taken into was

14 Krnojevac's office. In the statement to OTP investigators, you said that

15 you did not know if it had been his office. Which of the two is true?

16 A. Well, I can't tell you if it was his office. I was taken into

17 that office, and what does it matter whose office it was?

18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour --

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

21 MR. SMITH: I know it's difficult putting things to a witness out

22 of context, but in his second statement he does state, at least in one

23 part, that "I was brought into Krnojevac's office." So it may be -- and

24 my friend is referring to another part, but certainly in one part he does

25 state that he was brought into Krnojevac's office.

Page 3168

1 JUDGE HUNT: Have you got the paragraph number there?

2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is the third passage

3 on the second page of document 230A; that is, 230 in English, 230A in

4 B/C/S.

5 JUDGE HUNT: You mean in that statement he says that he did not

6 know; is that what you're referring to? Is that right?

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend -- yes. I wanted to

8 say that he did not know it, and my learned friend says that, in the first

9 sentence of the same passage, the witness says that he was brought into

10 Krnojevac's office. But in the third sentence of that same passage, he

11 says, "I don't know if that was Krnojevac's office.

12 JUDGE HUNT: If I may suggest, Mr. Vasic, you have taken it out of

13 context. You'd have to put the whole lot to him. The first one is a

14 fairly clear statement; the second one may or may not qualify it. It's

15 just, I think, fairer to the witness if you don't suggest to him that he

16 had - I'm sorry - if you suggest to him that he had not anywhere stated

17 that it was your client's office; that's all. That's the point of the

18 objection that's being taken.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not say that the

20 witness had never said it. He already said today that he believed it to

21 be Krnojelac's office. I merely wanted to clarify what he had already

22 said in this third passage of his statement, and that is that first he

23 said that it was the office, and then, two sentences later, that he did

24 not know if it was his office. And this, I believe, is the correct

25 reconstruction of what the witness said.

Page 3169

1 JUDGE HUNT: I don't want to belabour the point, Mr. Vasic, but

2 the clear suggestion by your question was that he had been unable to say

3 at any time beforehand that it was Mr. Krnojelac's office. I mean, we've

4 all grown up throughout this period of this trial as to the means of

5 cross-examination. You are seeking to get conflicts between the evidence

6 and the statements. Now, he could have only asked that question for the

7 purpose of obtaining such a conflict, so that the clear suggestion was

8 being made, to me, anyway, that he had never been able to identify that as

9 Mr. Krnojelac's office.

10 Now, if you want to be fair to the witness, you should have given

11 him that full statement, and you could ask him to explain it. But in my

12 view, the question was an unfair one and I suggest that you attempt to put

13 it to the witness to get him to explain what he meant by those two

14 sentences that you've referred us to.

15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Yes, I shall

16 do so.

17 Q. Sir, in the statement to the OTP investigator, you stated:

18 "I was brought in Krnojevac's office and I heard Vlado and Dida

19 discuss how they want to kill women and children. The office I was

20 brought to was to the right of the entrance, the second on the left, as

21 soon as you turn right. I don't know if it was Krnojevac's office."

22 Did you say this?

23 A. Let me tell you: I said that you go right towards the passage. I

24 said that there was a sort of a reception room, then Krnojevac's office.

25 But later on in my statements, I tried to bring it back to memory, but I

Page 3170

1 couldn't really. The office is either the first one or the second one.

2 The first should be a kind of a booth on the left-hand side. But perhaps

3 I'm wrong. Perhaps this reception booth was on the other side.

4 Q. But after that, did you also say that you didn't know if it was

5 Krnojevac's office?

6 A. Well, I repeat it now: I was brought into that office, and it was

7 my guess that it was that office. One -- somebody should have to say

8 exactly whether it was Krnojevac's office or not.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. When you arrived in the KP Dom, were there any

10 volunteers from the area of Uzice, would you know, in the KP Dom?

11 A. No. I did not go into the KP Dom and I don't know who was there.

12 There were some people there, but all that went on there I said in my

13 statement and I do not have anything else to say. I did not communicate

14 with them.

15 Q. In your statement, sir, the surname Krnojelac appears, and you

16 told us today that the man who had introduced him to you at that time was

17 Krnojevac. Now, was that an error in the statements or how do you explain

18 that?

19 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I object.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Smith.

21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in the second statement that this witness

22 made, he uses the name Krnojevac all the way through that statement, and

23 my friend has put that, "In your statement the surname Krnojelac appears."

24 Generally, and I think all throughout, it's actually Krnojevac that

25 appears, not Krnojelac. It may be in the first statement that he mentions

Page 3171

1 Krnojelac, but I don't think he does. The statement that talks about

2 Mr. Krnojevac is the second one, and it appears as Krnojevac all the way

3 through.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I'm following you. I heard the

5 evidence that the witness gave about the slightly different name that he

6 understood to have been given to him. Do you say that the first reference

7 to that different name is in the second statement?

8 MR. SMITH: No. It's also in the first statement.

9 JUDGE HUNT: With the "V," "V" for Victor, rather than the "L" for

10 Lima?

11 MR. SMITH: That's correct. Actually, I mean, I don't think it

12 appears anywhere in either statement, but it's the second one that

13 concentrates on Krnojevac.

14 JUDGE HUNT: So there's no "L" for Lima in either of his

15 statements?

16 MR. SMITH: No. It took me a while to practice the distinction,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that you succeeded, I'm afraid,

19 Mr. Smith. But you have made it very clear for the court reporters, and

20 for which we are grateful.

21 Well, I'm not sure it's an objection, Mr. Vasic, but at least you

22 are now better informed. We certainly are. If he has used the name with

23 a "V," "V" for Victor, throughout the statements, you could ask him, if

24 you like, how he explains that, but he already has. You could challenge

25 his explanation, if you like. The evidence he gave earlier, as I recall

Page 3172

1 it, was that was what he understood the name to be. It was given just

2 either before or after the morning tea adjournment.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. That is how I

4 understood it too, that today the witness said "Krnojevac" - that is "V"

5 like Victor - but in the statements which I have and which are marked, ID

6 22 -- 230, 228, it says "Krnojelac" in my copies. Perhaps my translations

7 in B/C/S are different from what my learned friends have.

8 JUDGE HUNT: You mean with an "L", "L" for Lima?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, "L" for Lima, yes, correct, Your

10 Honour.

11 JUDGE HUNT: This is probably another consequence of the crazy

12 system which the Prosecution has of taking a statement in B/C/S, having it

13 translated into English, having the English version signed and having it

14 retranslated back into B/C/S. But if you think there is some significance

15 in this, Mr. Vasic, you can proceed, but I don't really see that there is

16 any. Is there? We have got the signed documents with "V" for Victor in

17 them. He's given in evidence in accordance with that. If you want to say

18 there is some conflict, you pursue it if you like, but I think we have got

19 more important things to get on with.

20 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, if I can just add a comment? The

21 statements are recorded in English and then they are brought back to The

22 Hague and then they are translated into B/C/S. And my friend is quite

23 right, the B/C/S ones, they have translated it as "Krnojelac," what they

24 thought was perhaps a mistake.

25 JUDGE HUNT: It is only just another occasion where the

Page 3173












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Page 3174

1 retranslations have gone wrong. But Mr. Vasic, as I say, you can pursue

2 it, although it will not be until after lunch, if you really think there

3 is something in it. But I can assure you that, from my own point of view,

4 I do not think there is.

5 We will adjourn now and resume at 2.30.

6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.




















Page 3175

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I just have a few more questions for you

5 related to your statement. Did you state to the investigators of the OTP

6 that the refugees were released from KP Dom on the orders of Lieutenant

7 Colonel Ivanic [as interpreted]?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you, sir. During your examination-in-chief today, you said

10 that on the next day, from the restaurant, you again went to the

11 administration building of the KP Dom. Could you tell me, please, whether

12 you went there on your own or were you escorted by someone?

13 A. I was escorted by someone.

14 Q. Thank you. In response to my learned friend's questions today why

15 your meeting with Mr. Krnojelac is not mentioned in your first statement,

16 I think I didn't understand you very well. You mentioned that they wrote

17 down what they were interested in. Can you tell me whether these facts

18 related to Mr. Krnojelac were not important for the representative of the

19 OTP or to you, as you were making your first statement in 1996?

20 A. Just as you want to have certain questions clarified for you, they

21 required the same thing, and whatever they asked me to say, I said at that

22 moment. Whether they presented the entire material or not in the English

23 language, that I cannot say. What they required me to do, I did, details

24 included.

25 Q. Does that mean that you stated this also on that occasion and that

Page 3176

1 it was not written down, or do you think that everything you said was

2 written down in the statement you signed after that?

3 A. I think that in all my statements I spoke approximately at the

4 same pace, presenting the same kind of evidence and facts; however, it is

5 possible that as the war ends, a person remembers things and then things

6 come back in your memory the more you think about them.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that after Velecevo, you came to

8 Belgrade. Can you tell me whether you were tried in Belgrade, whether you

9 spent any time in military prison?

10 A. I was in investigative prison.

11 Q. Were you tried before a military court?

12 A. There was no possibility for that because I escaped.

13 Q. Did you escape from the military prison?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell us how you escaped from the investigative military

16 prison?

17 A. These are details that were certainly tacitly carried out by those

18 who made it possible for me.

19 Q. Do you mean that those who brought you let you go?

20 A. No. Those who brought me would never have let me go. I was under

21 investigation and I was giving statements, and it became obvious that I

22 did nothing wrong in relation to the Geneva Convention, so I didn't have

23 anything to apologise for, and there was nothing that I could have been

24 convicted of or was there any reason for detaining me in the military

25 prison of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Page 3177

1 Q. Tell me, please: You said that you escaped from the military

2 prison.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were there any guards in that prison?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How did you manage to escape, then?

7 A. People can do anything.

8 Q. Did you state to the investigator of the OTP that you were

9 supposed to be sent to a post in Titovo Uzice?

10 A. Yes, I said that in one of my statements.

11 Q. Were you supposed to be sent from prison to this military post?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you know for how long a period of time a

14 Territorial Defence staff is appointed for a municipality?

15 A. I cannot tell you for sure because I was in active military

16 service so I was not really interested in this particular period in time,

17 but I think that it had to be more than a year.

18 Q. What does "more than a year" mean? Two, three, four years? What

19 does that mean, "over one year"?

20 A. Well, why do we have to go into explanations now? It depends on

21 the situation involved, whether it is in peace time or it is on the eve of

22 war or in war. A Crisis Staff can be appointed in different ways.

23 Q. Tell me, please, theoretically, do you know how long this period

24 is?

25 A. No.

Page 3178

1 Q. And who appoints a Territorial Defence staff in a municipality?

2 A. A Territorial Defence staff in a municipality is appointed by the

3 municipal authorities in agreement with a certain command that is on that

4 territory.

5 Q. Is that the republic command of the Territorial Defence?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Today, you explained to us theoretically what the

8 situation is concerning promotions among officers on the reserve force in

9 the Territorial Defence. Can you tell us whether what you told us today

10 theoretically was carried out in practice or whether more affluent

11 municipalities had training more often and the poorer ones less often, and

12 all of that within the scope of the activity of the Territorial Defence?

13 A. Municipalities had their budget, and money was allocated to them

14 from the Secretariat for National Defence, and this varied from one

15 republic to another and it depended on the budget of the republic

16 concerned. And later, the Territorial Defence staff of the republic would

17 allocate these resources according to a plan that they had made in a

18 certain period. In some municipalities, there were more training

19 exercises whereas, in others, there were less. As for strategy, I don't

20 want to speak about that.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you came in with your answer there immediately

24 at the end of the question. The translators were still about three

25 sentences behind in translating the question. So, please, do wait a

Page 3179

1 considerable, substantial period before you answer so that the translators

2 can catch up.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Bearing in mind what you said in response to my learned friend's

6 question concerning the length of training and theoretical training too,

7 how much time would a reserve officer spend away from his job due to

8 military training of this kind?

9 A. Nobody asked you how long you would stay if call-up papers were

10 received anyway from the military. All those days were paid in full but

11 by the company in which a person was employed. And if the person

12 concerned was not employed, then the Territorial Defence gave some

13 compensation. In the previous system, nobody ever brought that into

14 question, how long a person would spend in training.

15 Q. If I understood you correctly, persons who are employed would then

16 have records in the company they worked for, which would show how long

17 they spent in military training that had to be compensated financially; is

18 that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me finally whether it was possible

21 for this training to go on for three or four months per year?

22 A. It is possible, because in Kosmos [phoen], in Banja Luka, I had

23 the opportunity of being with a team consisting of reservists for four

24 months. We were engaged in training, personnel training.

25 Q. Can you tell me whether Banja Luka was a developed municipality?

Page 3180

1 A. Yes. I don't know exactly how big their budget was, but yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Were there such long military training exercises every

3 year or was this an exception?

4 A. Well, not necessarily. My colleagues who are engaged in technical

5 matters and services related to technical matters, due to the advancement

6 of electronics and telecommunications, package links, et cetera, packet

7 links, et cetera, they could have two or three months or even more every

8 year that they would spend in training.

9 Q. Two or three months?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Two or three times. Interpreter stands

11 corrected.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

14 MR. SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. Just a couple of questions.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Smith:

16 Q. Witness, when you were at the Velecevo prison and you were taken

17 into the room, and you said that you saw Lieutenant Colonel Milan Ivancic

18 and you also said that you saw a Miro Stanic there, at that time, in that

19 room, who appeared to be more superior than the other?

20 A. In my view, Miro Stanic was superior, although Lieutenant Colonel

21 Ivanic [as interpreted] was commander of the garrison.

22 Q. And Miro Stanic, he wasn't a soldier, was he, a career soldier, as

23 far as you knew?

24 A. I don't know. I first saw the man in Velecevo. I had never seen

25 him before that.

Page 3181

1 Q. In your first statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, in

2 addition to what my friend has put to you in relation to Lieutenant

3 Colonel Ivancic, it states that: "My impression was that Miro Stanic was

4 in command of the situation at that time regarding the crises in Foca."

5 What did you base that opinion on?

6 A. In order to decide, within a certain country, on military

7 operations, and in order to make it possible for the military to carry out

8 certain actions within a given region, it would have been necessary for

9 the former Yugoslav leadership, political leadership, together with the

10 military leadership, to pass such a decision, which would then have to be

11 transferred to the republic authorities, and then the republic authorities

12 would have to deal with that at the municipal level. Politicians, in a

13 state or in a republic or in a municipality, are those who give the

14 initiative, and the military carries out certain actions related to a

15 certain territory.

16 MR. SMITH: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That is the end of your evidence.

18 Thank you for giving that evidence. You are now free to leave, but I

19 suggest you wait a moment while the blinds are being lowered so that you

20 may leave without being seen by the public.

21 Well, are we ever getting Witness 210?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I hope so, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Have we got them for today?

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: For today we don't have him here, no. He is

25 not here.

Page 3182

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's the end for this week's list.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, unfortunately.

3 JUDGE HUNT: I know we lost the videolink, yes. Very well, then.

4 I don't think any of us will be sorry to be able to get on to some work.

5 We'll resume again on Monday at 9.30, and I remind you we will not be

6 sitting on Tuesday afternoon because of the delivery of the Celebici

7 judgement, which I have to attend.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of February

11 2001, at 9.30 a.m.















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