1 Wednesday, 21st February 2001<
2 [Open session] 3 [The witness entered court] 4 [The accused entered court] 5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m. 6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please. 7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number 8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac. 9 JUDGE HUNT: What is AID, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? 10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: AID is part of the police forces in Bosnia. 11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. 12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it assisted the Tribunal in such way that 13 the Tribunal staff, of course, did not know where all the localities were 14 where the witnesses were living, so we always informed the AID which 15 witness we wanted to interview and then this witness was brought in and 16 was interviewed and brought back, and police officers from this office did 17 this transport and informed the witnesses that they wanted to be 18 interviewed. 19 JUDGE HUNT: And kept some note of their address -- 20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. 21 JUDGE HUNT: -- in case they had to be contacted. 22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Especially the witnesses in Sarajevo, when 23 they were in Sarajevo, either lived in refugee places or switched living 24 quarters quite often because they didn't have homes - they came from 25 Foca - and therefore we never knew where they were living.
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: What is AID, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: AID is part of the police forces in Bosnia.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it assisted the Tribunal in such way that
13 the Tribunal staff, of course, did not know where all the localities were
14 where the witnesses were living, so we always informed the AID which
15 witness we wanted to interview and then this witness was brought in and
16 was interviewed and brought back, and police officers from this office did
17 this transport and informed the witnesses that they wanted to be
19 JUDGE HUNT: And kept some note of their address --
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HUNT: -- in case they had to be contacted.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Especially the witnesses in Sarajevo, when
23 they were in Sarajevo, either lived in refugee places or switched living
24 quarters quite often because they didn't have homes - they came from
25 Foca - and therefore we never knew where they were living.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Just as a matter of interest, what does AID, the
2 acronym, stand for?
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm not absolutely sure, but what I know is
4 that it is an English abbreviation. It's Agency for Information -- but
5 there's something in between. But we will have a witness who can explain
6 that to the Court.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
8 Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. If I may
10 say, I also tried to find out something about it. My learned friend is
11 right; it is a part of the police force, but as far as I know, that is the
12 state security, a kind of a secret service. But that is the information
13 that I received about AID, if this is any help.
14 JUDGE HUNT: It does not sound very sinister, if I may say so.
15 Anyway, you proceed with your cross-examination. Thanks.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
17 WITNESS: FWS-73 [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
20 Q. Good morning, sir.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Are you ready? Can you answer some more questions in
24 A. I can, yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you showed us where your room was at the
1 time of the incident with Mr. Zekovic. I shall now move on to specific
2 incidents which you described, or rather that you testified during your
3 examination-in-chief. In direct examination you said that after beatings
4 and screams, you heard shots, and after that a splash of water; is that
6 A. It is.
7 Q. Sir, in your statement which you gave to the OTP in 1995, you said
8 the following -- I apologise. It is the first statement, 1995, page 6,
9 the first passage:
10 "Those who were called out did not return, as a rule. I think
11 they were killed. My assumption is corroborated by the fact that the
12 prisoners of the upper floor could hear sounds of something splashing,
13 falling into the water, at night."
14 So my question is: Which of the two statements is correct? Did
15 you hear those splashes or is it that these sounds could be heard by
16 prisoners on upper floors?
17 A. I listened to what you said. In one sentence you say one thing
18 and in the second sentence you say a different thing. But these two
19 things are related, which means - and I want to say on this occasion - the
20 building that we were in was elevated above the offices so that tortures
21 and rapes could be heard more clearly in the upper part of the building
22 and worse in the lower part of the building, but they could be heard in
23 both of them, and at that time you could hear a needle fall in the
24 compound because those tortures lay in store for every inmate. After
25 this --
1 JUDGE HUNT: Stop, sir, just stop. Let us start today by trying
2 to answer the question. The question was related to hearing splashing in
3 the water. You haven't even got near to that now. The question is: Did
4 you hear the splashing in the water or are you relying solely upon what
5 you were told by the people upstairs? Now, that's the question you were
6 asked and we would like an answer.
7 A. Tortures and splashes, we both heard them.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Why did you tell the OTP, then, that it was heard by prisoners on
10 the upper floors and not you yourself?
11 A. I say before the court again that the splash had so many decibels,
12 then those above could hear those splashes against the water much louder
13 than we did. That is my explanation.
14 Q. Sir, in your -- during the direct examination, you said, "We heard
15 splashes against the water. You can invite an expert, an expert witness,
16 to check that." Nobody challenged that. Why did you say that? Nobody
17 disputed that when you raised that matter.
18 A. I am responsible for the answers that I give, and I always say, if
19 somebody does not believe any of those things that I said, can go to the
20 scene, which is now accessible, and check it on the spot.
21 Q. But why did you, about this specific thing, suggest that it be
22 checked even though nobody had challenged before that? Did you follow the
23 trial before you came here?
24 A. No, I did not follow any of the trials.
25 Q. Did you talk before your testimony with somebody about this case?
1 A. Before the testimony, I discussed -- I did discuss this trial but
2 what I said, I stand by it, and that is why I say all the words that I
3 utter before this Honourable Court, please check them.
4 Q. And who did you talk with about it?
5 A. I don't know. I might make confessions to you and tell you who
6 are all the people that I talked to.
7 Q. Do I understand you, you refuse to tell us who you discussed it
9 A. I said at the beginning of the trial that to my mind, the lawyer
10 is asking me questions which are very provocative and expects me to answer
12 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are being asked who you spoke to about it.
13 It's a perfectly permissible question. If you don't want to tell us, you
14 say so and then we will worry about the consequences if that is the case.
15 But it's not for you to determine what is relevant and what is not
16 relevant. Now, are you prepared to identify who you spoke to about this
17 before the trial -- before you gave evidence?
18 A. Mr. President, I am not familiar with legal laws and therefore I
19 cannot answer that.
20 JUDGE HUNT: The question was very simple. Are you prepared to
21 tell us who you spoke to?
22 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour maybe the witness spoke with
24 other protected witnesses and maybe it's easier for him to write down the
25 names, if it is so. I don't know. It may be. It may be that this is a
1 problem, but I don't know.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, if you have some worry about the identity
3 of the person you spoke to becoming public, you may write it down but we
4 will not look at it unless the Defence counsel is also allowed to look at
5 it. Now, are you prepared to identify who you spoke to?
6 A. I can write down the names of people I talked to with these
7 conversations that I had. I don't know what they mean to the Defence.
8 JUDGE HUNT: As I say, that's not a matter for you. If you will
9 write them down now and then they will be shown to counsel.
10 A. [witness writes]
11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, you could check that for any protected
12 witnesses, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are not protected witnesses.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry. These are not protected witnesses.
16 These are witnesses but they will come here and testify openly.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Bakrac, my intention at the moment is to simply mark that as
19 an exhibit under seal. Whilst the witnesses are not protected, this
20 witness may feel some diffidence about them knowing that he has revealed
21 that fact, so that we will be able to refer to them. If you need to refer
22 to them, you may do so by reference to the document but -- and the
23 document will be under seal. Have you any objection to that procedure?
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That's quite
1 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit P433 and it is under
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, may I
5 Q. Apart from the individuals whose name you have written down, sir,
6 did you talk with somebody else before you came to give your testimony?
7 A. From the place that I -- in the place that I come from, I didn't
8 discuss this with anyone there.
9 Q. And outside the place that you've come from?
10 A. Outside the place that I've come from, I've already written the
11 names of people that I talked with.
12 Q. And nobody else?
13 A. I cannot remember that there was anybody else.
14 Q. Thank you. Sir, I asked you, and I am asking you again now, when
15 we've -- when we read what you had said in your first statement and what
16 you had said in the direct examination, did you hear shots and splashes
17 against the water?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Why didn't you mention the shots before?
20 A. I'll tell the Defence. After this ill-famed camp, my head reels,
21 and it would take a month of complete rest to describe every detail before
22 this court. Because things that went on were such that one thinks, well,
23 if I say I heard a -- this, am I to now explain how many decibels was the
24 sound of a pistol, how many decibels were screams? But what I am saying
25 is that I heard it, and both the upper and the lower floors heard it,
1 those on the upper floor with more decibels and those on the lower floors
2 with less decibels. That is my statement, if you get my meaning, and this
3 is the third time I repeat this.
4 Q. Yes, sir. Because just now you told us that there were so many
5 crimes committed there, I will read to you something that you told the
6 OTP: "I never witnessed a crime because I was locked up in my cell."
7 A. That is true - you, Defence - that during that 12 days that I was
8 in the cell, I did not hear it, because I was so badly beaten that I
9 couldn't hear the movements of my body. That is correct about those 12
10 days. But two years and six months, where are they?
11 Q. You never mentioned any 12 days.
12 A. I kept mentioning 12 days after the beating. That was in the
13 camp, when the person concerned fled the camp.
14 Q. You spoke in general. That is not the part where you referred to
15 Zekovic. You simply say that you did not eyewitness the crimes.
16 A. I don't understand you. You are saying one thing about those 12
17 days; now you are saying something else which has nothing to do with those
18 12 days. And I repeat again: I spent two years and six months in the
19 camp, and 12 days I spent in a cell, and there I could not even hear the
20 movements of my body, let alone something else, during those 12 days.
21 Q. And you were locked all 12 days and you could not move about?
22 A. I spent all those 12 days in the isolation cell. I couldn't make
23 a single move. Now, for the first time that day, when he was found that
24 day, I was forced out into the yard to see the man who had been captured,
25 and you've got to go out when you're ordered, even if all the bones in
1 your body are broken. There's no --
2 Q. You said, "because I was locked in my cell." You never mentioned
3 the isolation cell or 12 days. It is in that part where you spoke about
4 what had been going on in the KP Dom in general.
5 A. I repeat: My cell, that cell of mine. I would have stayed in
6 that cell of mine to this day, when you say "my cell."
7 Q. What does it mean, "stay to this day"? Are you trying to be
8 ironic? I never thought to say that the cell was your property.
9 A. Will you please ask me the question that you want an answer to in
10 two or three words, not a sentence? One is like this, and then after that
11 comes another sentence with a different meaning.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. I've heard enough about this. Did you ever
13 mention a court martial?
14 A. All of us who were in the camp knew that there was a court martial
15 outside in Foca, and it was in operation at that time in Foca.
16 Q. How did you learn about that?
17 A. Everything that went on in the compound and outside the compound,
18 we knew about it all.
19 Q. How could you know about this court martial?
20 A. After the murder of Isanovic, Selimovic, and the surname of the
21 third person whom I don't know, who I guess was not born in the town, Serb
22 guards, that is, one of the Serb guards, told us the court
23 martial -- those three individuals were court martialled, that they are
24 three persons whom the extremist part of the SDS had condemned without any
25 defence or anything, and they allegedly sentenced those three persons to
1 be immediately taken before the firing squad.
2 Q. My question was very simple: Where and how did you hear that?
3 A. We heard it in the camp.
4 Q. From whom?
5 A. I point out before the Honourable Court that the lawyer seeks
6 names of honest Serbs, and in that part -- and there are still extremists
7 there, so that I should like to ask the Honourable Court to say I should
8 not even write those names for him, because I know what will happen to
9 those honest people. If I may ask that.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, this is the point that the witness took
11 yesterday afternoon -- I'm sorry, yesterday morning. It's a view which is
12 one which he very strongly holds, obviously. Whether it's justified or
13 not is not really a matter for us. I think we all recognise that a
14 failure or a refusal to identify such persons must have some bearing on
15 the weight to be afforded to his evidence, but I would not myself like to
16 force him to do so. He made it very clear that he believes that you or
17 those around you will reveal them to people who will then cause trouble
18 for the persons he names. As I say, we're not going to buy into that.
19 But his refusal, for whatever reason, to identify them clearly does have
20 some effect on the weight of the evidence he's given. I think that
21 probably is sufficient for your purposes, unless you wish to pursue the
22 matter further.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree. I do not
24 want to insist on this really. I'll ask only one question about this, and
25 I'm not asking for any names. And I'll try to finish this witness as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 quickly as possible, and I do believe that it will come to an end
2 shortly. I know; I also would be very happy if the answers were shorter
3 and more precise, but what can I do?
4 Q. Sir, do you remember saying to the OTP that you learnt about the
5 court martial on the radio?
6 A. I am not quite sure, but it is possible that I said that, because
7 those were the early days. It was in the early days of the war, so that
8 we also had a radio. But even without the radio, we learned this
10 Q. When you spoke, sir, about persons -- or rather, that other
11 prisoners had heard something splashing against the water, you also then
12 stated that on the radio you heard later on that the bodies of those
13 prisoners had been found in Gorazde; is that true?
14 A. It is true.
15 Q. Which radio station?
16 A. Yes. I shall be shorter today. Yes, that is true.
17 Q. Which radio station? Will you wait for my question to be
19 A. I repeat once again what I repeated yesterday and the day before
21 Q. You said you would not be repeating yourself, you would give us
22 short answers. My question was: Which radio did you hear it on?
23 A. Radio Sarajevo, report from Foca.
24 Q. And from Foca they reported that the bodies of those prisoners had
25 been found in Gorazde, which was then under Muslim control?
1 A. Just a moment. I'm referring to bodies which were thrown from the
2 bridge, and those other bodies which were killed in the hospital, they
3 stayed there and the mother sent the godfather of this young man to Foca
4 from Cajnice so that --
5 Q. Let's not beat about the bush here. I'm referring to bodies which
6 were thrown from the bridge. You told us that you heard on the radio that
7 they had been found in Gorazde. Are you telling the truth?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that was a report from Foca for Radio Sarajevo, is it?
10 A. I said that a woman from Serb origin told the journalist Semso
11 Tucakovic, who then broadcast it on the radio.
12 Q. And that woman of Serb origin, was she in Foca?
13 A. She was in Foca. She was killed -- she was found dead, and after
14 that we could not hear anything.
15 Q. But how could she know what had been found in Gorazde if there was
16 a front line between Foca and Gorazde?
17 A. Well, we are in the middle ages and the telephones do not exist.
18 It is very difficult to cover those 30 kilometres with the radio
19 stations. Radio station and transistors and receivers do not exist, you
20 mean we are still in the middle ages. Is that what you're saying? So
21 there was no way she could find that out.
22 Q. Thank you, sir, very much. I shall move on specifically to names
23 that you gave us here. I will ask you about Professor Dzelilovic. You
24 mentioned him. Was his father in the KP Dom?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know when he was taken out?
2 A. I said that I -- dates, I -- well, he was there for a short while
3 and then he disappeared and was killed.
4 Q. Can you tell us which room he was taken from?
5 A. When I was separated from those collective rooms -- four of us who
6 worked distributing food, we were separated.
7 Q. So that you do not know what room he was taken from, is it?
8 A. Well, that room was on the first floor because I know from the
9 kitchen one could see who comes from which floor, first floor, and I
10 really didn't care about room, whether this room or that room. I don't
11 even know which room I was in because I was in all of them, so that I
12 didn't care about the numbers.
13 Q. Did you see who took him out?
14 A. I repeat before the Honourable Court - and this is the hundredth
15 time I repeat this - the order from the administration, arrival of
16 officers as we had to call them, taking out and disappearance.
17 Q. My question is specific: Which officer took him out?
18 A. I cannot answer that because I couldn't even watch it anymore,
19 there were so many of these, so many were taken out. And it never crossed
20 my mind to try to remember which officer.
21 Q. What time of the day was it?
22 A. I think -- well, as a rule they took people out in late
23 afternoon. That is when it usually happened.
24 Q. At about what time in late afternoon?
25 A. Well, it depends on the season of the year, and that was spring
2 Q. Well, if the summer, then it's 8.00 or 9.00?
3 A. Well, it was spring time, so it could have been around 4.00 or
4 5.00, half past five, 6.00, thereabouts.
5 Q. Where were you when he was taken out?
6 A. I was in the canteen. It was before the dinner or perhaps it was
7 the end of it, so that -- I spent the whole day in the restaurant while I
8 worked in the restaurant, that is, in the kitchen.
9 Q. But were you working or watching through the window?
10 A. Well, let me explain. When we finish our work, then we have to
11 make the fire beneath the caldron, so that we are in the yard. The
12 caldron was outside because -- because we used firewood to cook meals, if
13 that means anything to you.
14 Q. Was food prepared in this one caldron for everybody in the KP Dom?
15 A. For all the inmates.
16 Q. What about the Serb prisoners and others who ate there?
17 A. It changed later.
18 Q. I'm asking you whether there was a separate caldron.
19 A. At first, at first, it was the same. And later, we were
20 replaced. Serbs came to work at this caldron. At first, it was -- when
21 we were first detained, there was one caldron, and then later on we were
22 replaced by Serbs, I think.
23 Q. And they cooked using this same caldron?
24 A. They cooked using the same caldron, I think, because they had
25 there even greater extremists, the way they looked at it, so they were
1 also beaten, yes, battered.
2 Q. You mentioned a person with the last name of Vahida. Do you know
3 when he was taken out?
4 A. Vahida also during these first months was beaten, battered and
5 taken out. I saw him a few days, for a few days, when he was beaten up
6 and when he came to eat. After that he was taken out, killed, and he went
7 missing. It was that group.
8 Q. I'm asking you whether you saw when he was taken out.
9 A. Every inmate --
10 Q. Please answer me specifically. Did you see him? I'm not asking
11 you about what other inmates saw.
12 A. I cannot remember this moment. I mean to tell you the exact time,
13 whatever. I mean, I'd have to have a computer rather than a head.
14 Q. I'm just asking you whether you saw him.
15 A. At first, I saw everybody who was taken out and remembered him
17 Q. I'm asking you whether you saw him being taken out and when he
18 went missing or, as you say, when he was killed.
19 A. I don't know. I told you I remembered everybody I knew because
20 there would be commotion immediately at any time during the night. Even
21 the Serbs who would stay there would say, "They are taking out these
22 guys," and even when there were only four of us in this room.
23 Q. Sir, let's make it easier for the court and for everyone. There
24 are quite a few names. I would like to move from one name to another and
25 I'd like to ask you about the details, the time and the place where these
1 persons were taken from so that we would not waste time. Just tell me,
2 please, whether you can say for all of these persons, whether they were
3 taken out, when they were taken out, where they were taken out, by who
4 they were taken out, and where you were? Or can you simply not tell us
5 any of this?
6 A. I can. I can say, but who took them out, it didn't mean a thing
7 to me or to the other inmates. These younger men remembered all the names
8 of these people who took them out and we know through who they got orders
9 to take them out. I mean, if this is clear to you, if my answer is clear
10 to you.
11 JUDGE HUNT: I think the answer is clear enough that he cannot
12 tell us who took them out. And I think he's also said he can't say the
13 time. Now, if there are any other details, you take him to those.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I also asked whether he
15 knew in which rooms these persons were. Of course, I agree with what
16 you've said specifically. And also, where was he? Did he see everybody
17 individually as they were taken out and then never returned?
18 JUDGE HUNT: Those are the details I suggest that you ask him
19 specifically in relation to the particular matters, and we will see how we
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. You mentioned a person named Mandzo?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know which room he was in and where you were when you saw
25 him being taken out?
1 A. This person Mandzo, if you're asking me about a person who was
2 beaten up together with that salesperson, I am answering you in that
3 connection. At that time, I was in the room next door. In the same
4 hallway, there were two other rooms and there was a single entrance door
5 so all these rooms and all of us were there together, room by room. And
6 there was one door. So I was next door to where Mandzo was.
7 Q. In which part of the building was this?
8 A. The first building, downstairs.
9 Q. You mentioned a person called Dzanko?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Which room was he in?
12 A. The same room where Mandzo was.
13 Q. Was he taken out at the same time when Mandzo was taken out?
14 A. I cannot give you the exact minutes and seconds. We saw them
15 being taken out, they were beaten up, they were returned and I mentioned
16 that Dr. Berberkic sewed up this man's face. So suffice it to say that
17 that happened, and we have said enough about this salesperson. I know one
18 thing. I mean I didn't know this salesperson very well and I didn't know
19 Mandzo very well either. They lived a bit further away from me but I got
20 to know them down there and they were taken away and there has been no
21 trace of them.
22 Q. You say that they were returned and then sewn up. When were they
23 returned? Were they taken out together?
24 A. They went missing at the same time, and they have never been seen
25 since. Now, let me tell you whether I can give you the exact second when
1 they were taken away. Again, I say I'd have to be a computer. I'd have
2 to have a video camera, I mean to record all of this.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, we've heard all of this. You must be doing this
4 deliberately. We have told you so often not to repeat yourself and to
5 answer the question.
6 A. I do apologise, Your Honour.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Sir, I asked you about Dzelilovic, Vahida, Mandzo, Dzanko. Did
9 you have contact with their families when you got out of the KP Dom?
10 A. With Mandzo's mother. I worked with her at the presidency for
11 refugees and I talked to her personally. I cannot tell you how I talked
12 to her. I talked to her personally and it was in that place where I told
14 Q. Which Mandzo?
15 A. The one who was beaten up together with that salesperson. He was
16 a male nurse by profession.
17 Q. Is that Mandzo nicknamed Kelta?
18 A. No. I am talking -- I said straight away, if we are talking about
19 Mandzo from that room, then he's a male nurse, whereas Kelta is free.
20 Kelta got out, Kelta was released, Mandzo Kelta.
21 Q. Where did you work with the mother of this Mandzo?
22 A. She came to this office in Sarajevo. It has its presidency for
23 displaced persons and refugees so all parents whose children were killed
24 in the notorious camp are crying and weeping until the present day. So I
25 would kindly ask the honourable judges to tell this gentleman not to
1 pester me asking me questions like this. Because this woman is still
2 screaming, not only crying, she is devastated. I told you about this
3 office in Sarajevo where men and women still come in sobbing and crying
4 because of all these young people who were killed. I don't know what to
5 tell you anymore. All right. Well, ask me and I'll answer you, but
6 that's where I talked to her. Right now she is in a foreign country. I
7 don't know which country. She told me which country. But she came to
8 this presidency where we have these offices of ours in Sarajevo.
9 Q. So you work in this office for displaced persons?
10 A. I did work there, sir, for two years.
11 Q. At what time, which two years are we talking about?
12 A. I said that I worked there for two years. There are documents to
13 prove that and now I don't know what this means to you. I mean asking me
14 at what time.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Look sir --
16 A. I mean --
17 JUDGE HUNT: Just stop for a moment, please. I've told you twice
18 today already it's not for you to determine what is relevant and what is
19 not. I assume that you've come here in an endeavour to assist the
20 Tribunal by giving the evidence that you have. But the evidence that you
21 give is of little value to us unless it has been tested to see whether
22 it's true, and this is the means by which it is tested. Now, I know you
23 don't like it and I wouldn't like to be under a cross-examination myself,
24 but if you do wish to assist this Tribunal, I'm afraid you just have to
25 answer these questions. The question which is asked of you is when did
1 you work for that organisation. That is relevant to test the assertion
2 that you have made that these persons have never been heard of again. We
3 want to know when it was you were working there and when you would have
4 had the opportunity to have heard of them again. Now, if you're not going
5 to answer the question, just say so. It means, of course, that your
6 evidence will carry little weight. But I suggest to you if you answer the
7 question, it will save us all a great deal of time and it may well assist
8 us in accepting your evidence.
9 A. I do apologise, Your Honours. I am going to answer the
10 gentleman's question. (redacted).
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Did you talk to the persons who came there as displaced persons?
13 Did you talk about what had happened in Foca?
14 A. It's not that we only talked over there. These stories are heard
15 throughout the world and I think that you know this full well.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. I asked you about four persons. You mentioned
17 that you had had contact with a certain person called Mandzo?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What about the rest?
20 A. The rest? I might have had contact with them, but without knowing
21 their names. But I knew this woman.
22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned Nurko Nisic, sir. Do you know
23 which room he was taken out of?
24 A. Nurko Nisic was taken out -- again I'm telling you that I was not
25 interested in the numbers of rooms. He was taken out of the first
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 building. When Nurko Nisic was tortured, when he screamed, we all
2 recognised his voice, because he got married very young, he was a
3 well-developed man. They beat him so badly that perhaps his screams could
4 have been heard to the centre of Foca, so to speak.
5 Q. Where were you at that moment?
6 A. At that time I was in that room over there, in the isolated room,
7 in another building. I heard it even from there.
8 Q. Was this the isolation cell?
9 A. No, no. I said that the four of us had a separate room. It was
10 not an isolation cell.
11 Q. Which building is this? The second one?
12 A. The second one.
13 Q. Do you remember what time of the day it was?
14 A. This was also in the early evening.
15 Q. Yesterday you mentioned Halim Konjo as well, sir. Do you know
16 which room he was taken out of?
17 A. Halim Konjo was taken out -- at that time I was also transferred
18 to these rooms where they were, so his room was L -- if you look at this
19 L-shape, Halim Konjo was at this L-shape and our windows were like this.
20 So he could establish contact with us, and not only him, but everybody who
21 was in that room, through the windows. It was nearby, a metre or two.
22 Q. It was the first or second building?
23 A. The first building.
24 Q. At what time was he taken out?
25 A. Also early in the evening.
1 Q. Where were you then?
2 A. In the room, in the room. At that time I was in the room, because
3 when I was in the room, in the room where they were, then I was kicked out
4 of the kitchen.
5 Q. Which room were you in? In which part of the building?
6 A. The first part of the building, the ground floor, diagonally,
7 right above the door that was the exit and entrance into and out of the
8 camp. I was about -- I was very close to the door, so we could see
9 everything: who was taken out, everything.
10 Q. Is that the room above the storage area?
11 A. Yes, yes. Just a minute. Just a minute. It's not. It's not.
12 This room was here. The building is like this, here, here, here. And
13 then we could watch from here, see, from this other side. Does this mean
14 anything to you? I mean, it just so happened that I know this, and that's
15 pretty important to me. I could see this. We were in this kind of room.
16 It's not the room above the storage area, but it's over here, if this
17 means anything to you.
18 Q. Is it in the other part of the building?
19 A. It's in the same building, the same building, but the L-shaped
21 Q. Were you in a room that is closer to the administration building
22 of the KP Dom, the part that is closer to the administration building of
23 the KP Dom?
24 A. Well, viewed from this first part, perhaps it's 10 or 15 metres
25 away. Not much difference, is it? Ten or fifteen metres, sort of
1 protruding out here, sort of L-shaped, so it's closer to the offices.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher for his
3 assistance. Could you please show us this.
4 Q. Please look at this floor plan, 6/1. There's building number 1
5 and there's building number 2.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And could the usher please keep the
7 floor plan there if we still need it.
8 A. It's this building here. This is building number 1. Part of the
9 building here --
10 Q. Sir, we can see where the building is. Just show us where you
11 were in terms of this specific question. In which room were you when you
12 saw Halim Konjo being taken out and not returning?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
15 A. This building here, this other one. If I'm knowledgeable enough
16 as far as this drawing is concerned, there were these rooms here, so we
17 could talk, if I'm knowledgeable enough as far as this drawing is
18 concerned. I mean, there was this room here. This room was above the
19 storage area, and this other room was in this other building. Perhaps I
20 made a mistake a few moments ago, and I do apologise to this Honourable
21 Court if I did that. So this room is in this building, and these
22 prisoners who were here, that's where Halim Konjo also was.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, let me say that
24 on 6/1, the witness has been showing building number 1, the right-hand
25 part of building number 1, and he says Halim Konjo was taken out of there
1 and he's showing --
2 Please, sir, let me finish.
3 He is showing building number 2, the protruding part of the
4 building, the part that protrudes towards the administrative building, and
5 he says that his room was there.
6 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's not quite clear - at least, it's not
7 clear enough to me - precisely where it was the witness says he was when
8 he saw this man being taken out. I think he means in the L-shaped part of
9 building 2. I'm not sure. So if you would like to pursue that matter, it
10 will be of assistance to us. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, you're talking about building number 2, that you were there
13 in that building. On which floor?
14 A. Ground floor.
15 Q. Were you in this part which is closer to the administration
17 A. This part was closer. I would kindly ask the Honourable
18 Court -- I mean, I don't know. I'm not very knowledgeable as far as this
19 drawing is concerned, because I'm not an expert in construction or in
20 mechanics. So could the Honourable Court please provide a photograph of
21 the camp for me?
22 JUDGE HUNT: We've got the sketch. That might be the best idea.
23 Mr. Smith will be proud of this witness.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 A. Excellent. So if I see this correctly, I'll say the same thing
2 that I said as far as the drawing was concerned as well.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, sir. No, don't tell us what is
4 what. Sir, don't.
5 A. I was in this building that has windows here, on this side, and on
6 the other side. So there were more rooms here, where there were
7 prisoners, and there were also rooms here were there were prisoners, and I
8 don't know what you're asking me really.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript, the
10 witness is showing the part of the building marked "B" on this sketch. He
11 said that he was on the ground floor and that his windows were facing the
12 building which is marked "A" on this sketch.
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Would you agree with that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? It
15 seems to be so.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I'm sorry Mr. Smith wasn't here to see
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Sir, please. You mentioned the Rikalo brothers. Do you know
21 where they were taken out of, from which room?
22 A. The brothers Rikalo? I met them only at the camp. They were
23 taken out. At that time I was working in the kitchen. Now, I don't know
24 exactly whether I had been transferred from the kitchen, because for a
25 while --
1 Q. No, sir. Just tell me: Do you know which room they were taken
2 out of?
3 A. The first building. I don't know the exact room. The first
4 building. Because had I known the layout, if I knew where each prisoner
5 was, I would have been the warden, if I would have known every room, every
7 Q. That's fine. Thank you, sir. That's enough. Were all the
8 brothers taken out at the same time?
9 A. One by one.
10 Q. Were they all in the same room?
11 A. I repeat it once again: Had I been distributing people around all
12 the rooms, then I would have memorised them all, and if not there, then I
13 would have had it noted down.
14 Q. Where were you when brothers Rikalo were taken out?
15 A. Brothers Rikalo, when they were taken out, would you believe it
16 that at the time when they were taken out -- I don't know. You tell me
17 I'm not answering you specifically. I don't know myself where I was, but
18 if that means anything to you, I was in the building of the camp. Now, to
19 tell you within a metre or two ...
20 Q. Thank you. And Nail Hodzic, when he was taken, where was it from?
21 A. The first building too, and beaten and battered and then taken out
22 and disappeared, killed.
23 Q. Did you see him being taken?
24 A. I've told you about every one of them, at what time of the day, at
25 what time of the night I was in that compound, and I pointed out that I
1 did not see all the prisoners, because hundreds and hundreds of them were
2 taken out, but I did see him.
3 Q. Where were you when you saw him? From where did you see him being
4 taken out?
5 A. I was in this room which I just pointed out on the drawing, when
6 he was beaten and when he passed on his way to meals and when he was taken
7 away. I saw it all. I told you, I was in this building which is
9 Q. And at what time of the day was he taken out?
10 A. Early evening/late afternoon again.
11 Q. You mentioned yesterday Mustafa Kuloglija. Where was he taken out
13 A. Mustafa Kuloglija, also in the early days, he also came from those
14 rooms which were near us, on this other side. And upstairs there were
15 also floors and there were also rooms there. And on the upper floor, on
16 this drawing here, building A and then in this upper part, the upper part
17 was filled and the lower part was filled and we moved from one building to
19 Q. Just a moment, sir. You moved the pointer, and I will ask you:
20 Are you saying that it was building A?
21 A. Building A, like "L."
22 Q. And you say that the topmost floors were filled up.
23 A. At that time all the rooms were filled up. Those were the early
24 days of bringing in, beating, killing; and then some left, others came in.
25 Q. And you are talking about the topmost floor of the building?
1 A. The building was completely full. I don't know how many prisoners
2 there were. I only know that we came for meals. There were columns and
3 columns of them.
4 Q. Yesterday you also mentioned an individual called Krunoslav
6 A. I did.
7 Q. What room was he taken out of that time when he did not come back
9 A. Krunoslav Marinovic was in a lower room in building A. He came
10 beaten up, and after a while was taken out, killed, and is missing.
11 There's no trace of him.
12 Q. Can you tell me, sir, whether Mustafa Kuloglija and Nurko Nisic
13 were taken out together, that is, at the same time or roughly at the same
15 A. I can say that groups and groups, if they took one group today and
16 another group the next day, so that I cannot answer concretely to you, the
17 Honourable Court, whether they went out together, because it was groups
18 that left, one after another. And we watched non-stop how they were going
19 away. At that time the number of killings was the highest.
20 Q. And tell us sir, where were you when Kruno Marinovic was taken
22 A. When Krunoslav Marinovic was taken out, those were the early days
23 because I know -- I've already said that I saw him battered completely.
24 So that in the beginning I was there. That is, I lived in this lower part
25 until we were transferred over there. Those were early days. And then
1 when these extremists from Serbia, Montenegro left, a few of them were
2 left behind.
3 Q. You spoke about Dzanko, Nurko Nisic, Halim Konjo, Kuloglija,
4 Marinovic. Did you communicate with some members of their family?
5 A. I communicated with the family -- with Kuloglija's relatives. I
6 communicated with Klinac's family. I communicated with a close relative
7 of the Gagovic woman, that is Krunoslav's, and she's his sister's
8 daughter. I communicated with her in Foca, when they took me out to take
9 out flour sacks from the bakery. I've told you people that I had
10 communicated with.
11 Q. And after you left the KP Dom, you communicated with Krunoslav
12 Marinovic's family?
13 A. No. With Krunoslav Marinovic's family, I spoke personally with
14 his -- what's he to him? His sister's daughter is married to him, as he
15 was passing by the bakery. And I said how -- I talked to him in Foca.
16 Q. The question is quite clear. Did you communicate with Marinovic's
17 family after your release from the prison?
18 A. No, but I did speak to them before I was released, in a bakery
19 which is about 100 metres away from the prison and I was unloading some
20 sacks of flour and he was passing by.
21 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a person called Hamid Bico. What room was
22 he taken from?
23 A. Same thing. Hamid Bico was also taken from this first. Now,
24 whether he lived on that floor or on the ground floor but this first
25 building at any rate.
1 Q. Where were you when you saw him being taken out?
2 A. These are all early days. I think that I was in the kitchen at
3 the time. Can't really remember.
4 Q. And what time of the day was it when he was taken out?
5 A. Late afternoon, early evening.
6 Q. And that means what time?
7 A. Well, that was spring, and it was late spring then. It was
8 already dark so it could have been 4.00 or 5.00, thereabouts.
9 Q. You mentioned a person called Zulfo Veiz. What room was he taken
11 A. From the first building again. I think I also watched him being
12 taken away from the kitchen.
13 Q. At what time?
14 A. Same, late afternoon.
15 Q. You also mentioned a person called Mate Ivancic. What room was he
16 taken from?
17 A. Mate Ivancic was taken out from room L, upper floor, on the side.
18 I don't know which room exactly.
19 Q. Again, building numbering 1?
20 A. Yes, yes, building number 1.
21 Q. And where were you then?
22 A. I think I was in the kitchen on that occasion, too.
23 Q. Was it the same day when Mate Ivancic and those others were taken
25 A. I've already said they took one group today, the next group the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 next day, so as to make us believe that nothing was happening.
2 Q. And brothers Cancusic, where were they taken from, which room?
3 A. Brothers Cancusic were also taken out in the beginning and were
4 killed and are missing. And I also communicated with their parents in
6 Q. I asked you which room?
7 A. Whether the L one or this one here.
8 Q. But is it the first building or the second building?
9 A. The first building.
10 Q. And where were you when you saw that?
11 A. I think I was in the kitchen, not quite 100 per cent.
12 Q. You also mentioned Seval Soro. Which room?
13 A. Again the same, first building.
14 Q. And where were you at that time?
15 A. I think I was in the kitchen.
16 Q. At what time of the day was he taken out?
17 A. Well, it looked like he was being taken away earlier than those
18 others. He was supposedly to take something. When we asked about, we
19 were told, well, he has to take a vehicle somewhere, to take something
20 somewhere, but he didn't take anything anywhere or --
21 Q. You also mentioned Fuad Mandzo, sir.
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Is that the Mandzo salesman?
24 A. No, no, no. It is a young man. I think he was a builder -- a
25 mason or something.
1 Q. And where was he taken out from?
2 A. He was also taken from these first, and he was also beaten. I
3 don't know exactly when he was taken away. I cannot remember that, but
4 they beat him and beat him. And the other Mandzo, they also beat him.
5 And so they beat him and took him away but I can't remember when exactly.
6 Q. Did you see him being taken away?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. You mentioned Enes Uzunovic yesterday, sir?
9 A. I did.
10 Q. Do you know which room he was taken from?
11 A. I cannot remember the room exactly but at the time when he was
12 taken away, they -- he asked, "Should I take something with me?" And they
13 said, "No, nothing."
14 Q. How do you know that? Were you in the same room with him?
15 A. I was nearby. I was quite near. So that we communicated. Or be
16 that as it may, but I saw it immediately when they took him out,
17 everything, his personal papers and his clothes, all stayed behind. He
18 was taken out, disappeared, was killed.
19 Q. Where did you hear that exchange? In the yard or in the building?
20 A. What I heard, I was told that by those who were in the room with
21 him. I could not hear that because it was in another room.
22 Q. But did you see had him being taken out?
23 A. I saw him be taken out.
24 Q. Where was -- where were you when he was taken out?
25 A. I can't remember, but I saw his clothes later on and all his
1 papers and everything. Everything just stayed behind.
2 Q. Yesterday, you also mentioned a person called Alija Altoka. Where
3 was he taken out from?
4 A. The first building again.
5 Q. At about what time of the day?
6 A. I can't really remember, believe me.
7 Q. And where were you when you saw him being taken out?
8 A. I think I was in the kitchen again when he was taken out.
9 Q. Yesterday, you also mentioned a person called Adil Granov?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. Where was he taken out from?
12 A. Adil Granov was also in the first building, somewhere, and from
13 that first building, he was taken out and disappeared.
14 Q. At what time of the day?
15 A. I think it was still daylight. There was more daylight then.
16 Q. And where were you?
17 A. I cannot recollect whether I was in the kitchen or -- in the
18 kitchen, in the kitchen. I know I worked in the kitchen at that time, and
19 we called him because he was a big expert. He was a mechanical engineer
20 and we called him to help us, to help us repair the potato peeler. And
21 after that, he disappeared.
22 Q. Was he with a group or alone?
23 A. I think he was taken alone.
24 Q. You also mentioned a person called Munib Veiz?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. Where was he taken out from?
2 A. He was taken out with this group, Soro, the taxi driver, what's
3 his name, that was the group that he was taken out with.
4 Q. And what room?
5 A. Same room, I cannot say whether from rooms L or what, but the
6 first building.
7 Q. And where were you at that time?
8 A. I think I was in the kitchen.
9 Q. And what --
10 A. Because those were early days. I don't know at what time.
11 Q. And you saw from the kitchen how they took out this group?
12 A. Well, when I say "kitchen," it is the whole kitchen, this whole
13 kitchen area. That is, caldron from which you can see it all.
14 Q. And at about what time?
15 A. I cannot remember the time.
16 Q. What time of the day?
17 A. I cannot remember the time of the day. I cannot remember that.
18 Q. Do you remember the weather that day?
19 A. Well, that spring was very cloudy. That spring wept, if that
20 means anything to you. The saddest time in my life, both in terms of the
21 weather and as far as I'm personally concerned.
22 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a person called Kemal Tulek?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. Where was he taken out from?
25 A. He spent in the isolation cell all the time.
1 Q. And when was he taken out?
2 A. I don't know exactly, believe me.
3 Q. Did you see him being taken out?
4 A. I am not aware of that because it went on non-stop. They beat him
5 non-stop. And I cannot really answer 100 per cent, and I do not want to
6 lie before the court or before you.
7 Q. You also mentioned a person called Ramo Dzendusic. Where was he
8 taken out from?
9 A. Ramo Dzendusic, I said the people who had moved in Foca, and I
10 don't remember their surname. If you're talking about a salesman from
11 Tabaci, one salesman from Tabaci was so beaten that he hanged himself. He
12 simply couldn't stand the pain any more and he hanged himself. If that's
13 the salesman, I don't know.
14 Q. In other words, you don't know who I'm referring to?
15 A. No, no, no. I'm saying if that is the salesman, because I could
16 not those names remember. If it is -- if Ramo is that salesman that he
17 was beaten up and he hanged himself.
18 Q. And if it is another Dzendusic?
19 A. There were two with that surname. I think there was one Dzendusic
20 who worked in the military department, in the military office, up in the
21 police station. He was in charge of military matters. If that is the one
22 you mean, he was taken out and killed. If you mean the salesman, he was
23 beaten up and he hanged himself. Their names sound alike but I didn't
24 know them before. I never met them before. Even that one that worked in
25 the police station, I never really met him. I may have seen him twice in
1 my life altogether.
2 Q. But did you know both Dzendusics before the war?
3 A. Well, I may have seen this one twice and the other one once or
4 twice, I mean the salesman.
5 Q. And before the war, did you know their names?
6 A. No, I didn't, believe me, nor did I want to know them.
7 Q. When did you learn their names?
8 A. In the prison, in the camp.
9 Q. Did you see one of them being taken out?
10 A. I saw the one who had worked in the police station was responsible
11 for military matters, because he trembled like a reed in the camp, and he
12 was taken out and is missing. And I also communicated with his family,
13 and they are not in Bosnia at the moment. I believe they are in Germany,
14 but they came to Sarajevo and we communicated.
15 Q. Tell us which room was he taken from?
16 A. The one that was in the military office, he was taken out from my
18 Q. In which part of the building?
19 A. The first part of the building, ground floor, because he was in my
21 Q. What time of the day?
22 A. It was daylight.
23 Q. Were you in the room?
24 A. Yes, I was in the room.
25 Q. Was it in the early days?
1 A. I cannot say how many months. No, not right in the beginning.
2 Several months had passed by.
3 Q. Weren't you working in the kitchen at the time?
4 A. I'm telling you that I worked in the kitchen and was kicked out of
5 the kitchen at the time when there were those people who were so exhausted
6 so emaciated, they were falling down, and I -- and then I was thrown out
7 of the kitchen and stopped working in the kitchen.
8 Q. And this Dzendusic, was he taken all by himself or with a group?
9 A. No. He was alone when he was taken away.
10 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a person called Juso Dzamalija. Where
11 he was he taken out from?
12 A. Those surnames, Dzendusic, Dzamalija, I can't tell one from the
13 other because I cannot give an exact answer. I don't know all those
14 surnames. I know what they look like, but I cannot tell the surnames, one
15 from the other.
16 Q. Well, how then can you say -- how can you recognise faces?
17 A. Well, when you give me those surnames, it is more difficult for me
18 to say which surname is which without a photograph, but I know that those
19 surnames were tortured and killed.
20 JUDGE HUNT: You're not waiting for the translation to finish,
21 Mr. Bakrac.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.
23 Q. What does this thing that you just said mean, "I know that those
24 surnames were taken out and killed"? Yesterday, you said that Juso
25 Dzamalija was taken out and killed. Now you tell us that you cannot
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --
3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Juso Dzamalija was the person where the
5 witness did not know the name. It was the conclusion of the Prosecution
6 that this must be Juso Dzamalija, because the witness said one of these
7 Dzendusics hanged himself. This is actually the name that the witness did
8 not mention.
9 JUDGE HUNT: I think we'd have to look it up. I don't remember.
10 I remember there was a very hotly disputed assignation by the Prosecution
11 of one of these incidents. But if that's so, I don't think you could ask
12 him about the name in those circumstances.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but my notes say
14 differently. But I'm not challenging what my learned friend has said and
15 I shall move on so as not to waste more time on that. My apologies.
16 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
17 JUDGE HUNT: You wish to leave now, sir? Do you want a break
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, please.
20 JUDGE HUNT: We'll take an early break. We'll resume at 11.20.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Sir, I still have to ask you about four persons you mentioned.
1 You mentioned a person named Mesa Sofradzija. Do you know which room he
2 was taken out of?
3 A. Mesa Sofradzija, I know that person well. He was taken out. He
4 was first in the rooms and then he was taken out of the isolation cell.
5 Q. At what time of day?
6 A. I'm not sure, but it was sort of dark.
7 Q. Where were you when they took him out?
8 A. I think I was in the kitchen then, in front of the caldron, when
9 dinner was over and everything, the cleaning of the caldron.
10 Q. You say "sort of dark." For how long did dinner go on?
11 A. Dinner? I can't remember exactly. See, I don't remember these
12 times of the day very well. Before there was actual nightfall, we would
13 stay there. We would stay there to clean up after dinner was over and
14 when it was really dark.
15 Q. Were you in the kitchen, or rather, did you hear beatings when
16 Mesa Sofradzija was taken out?
17 A. We heard moans when they were beating him in the isolation cell.
18 When they were beating him in the isolation cell, that's when I heard it.
19 Q. On that same day?
20 A. No, not on that day; on several occasions. I think he was beaten
21 up several times.
22 Q. So when he was taken out, you didn't hear anything?
23 A. I didn't hear beatings then. He was just taken out.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. You said -- you mentioned a person named Rasim
25 Kajgana. Where was he taken from?
1 A. He was taken out -- we had already been transferred to the upper
2 rooms. He was taken out of those rooms upstairs, the upper floors. I
3 don't know exactly. I think building A, the top floor, so I know we were
4 in that room too.
5 Q. Building A, top floor; is that right?
6 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but he was a bit up.
7 Q. Where were you when he was taken out?
8 A. I think that I was in the room then.
9 Q. Which room?
10 A. The room where he had been.
11 Q. You were in the same room with him?
12 A. I think I was, because I know when he was taken out -- when he was
13 taken out to chop firewood, I was also taken out to chop firewood in the
15 Q. I'm asking you: When he was taken out, he was taken out of your
16 room and you were in the room and you saw him taken out?
17 A. He did not return. He never returned. I thought it was some kind
18 of exchange. I saw his family in Sarajevo as well.
19 Q. At that time you were in building A, on the top floor?
20 A. Yes, something like that. Whether it was the last floor or
21 not -- well, at any rate, I was in that building, yes.
22 Q. Did you hear beatings when he was taken out?
23 A. I didn't. I can't remember that I heard screams or something like
24 that. I thought -- well, he had Mojevic. He asked him to release him, so
25 I thought that perhaps he had arranged something through someone. He was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 taken out and killed. I'm not sure, but I didn't hear him being
2 tortured. At any rate, his entire family, everybody who is abroad, like
3 his wife, they all came to Sarajevo, and talk, and there has been no trace
4 of him since.
5 Q. Tell me, was he taken out on his own?
6 A. Yes, on his own.
7 Q. Can you remember which time of the year it was when he was taken
9 A. I cannot recall that date.
10 Q. I didn't ask you about the date, sir. I asked you about the time
11 of year.
12 A. No, believe me, I can't even say what time of year it was.
13 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a person named Avdo Mehmedspahic. Where
14 was he taken out from?
15 A. He was taken out of the isolation cell.
16 Q. What time of day?
17 A. Sometime in the early evening.
18 Q. Where were you? Where did you see him being taken out?
19 A. I think I was in front of the kitchen caldron then or inside. I
20 can't remember. At any rate, he was tortured, battered and taken away. I
21 also talked to his family in Sarajevo. He was killed.
22 Q. When he was taken out, did you hear the sounds of beatings?
23 A. Yes. I most often heard these sounds from the isolation cell,
24 because they were one opposite the other. There was a short distance.
25 Q. How do you know that he was the person who was being beaten in the
1 isolation cell?
2 A. (redacted). So
3 I knew him well.
4 Q. When he was taken out, did you hear sounds of beatings?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. You also mentioned the Hadzimesic brothers?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where were they taken out of?
9 A. The Hadzimesic brothers, one was in one room and the other one was
10 in the room opposite that one. I mean -- when I say "opposite," well, I
11 don't know whether you know this expression, one was upstairs and the
12 other one, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but at any rate it is in building
13 A. I don't know whether it was in the L-shaped part or whatever. But at
14 any rate, I know when I was in this room here, I would see them go out.
15 At that time, I had been thrown out of the kitchen so we saw them
16 non-stop. They were going to have lunch so they could not pass by without
17 passing by us, I mean by our windows.
18 Q. Were they taken out together?
19 A. I can't remember. One by one, because this one was separated. I
20 mean, if one was taken out one day, then the other one will be taken a few
21 days later. I knew the first one would be killed immediately because they
22 tortured him too, one of them, an elderly man or younger, I don't know.
23 Q. Did you hear the sound of beatings when any one of them was taken
25 A. I cannot recall.
1 Q. Did you see -- or, rather, where were you when the first one was
2 taken out and where were you when the second one was taken out?
3 A. I was in the same room when the first and the other one were taken
4 out. We thought, as far as the other one was concerned, as they had told
5 us, and it was all wrong, they were trying to pull a smoke screen over our
6 faces, because they said that he was taken out and they had mistreated
7 him, mistreated him verbally, and things like that.
8 Q. Which room were you in?
9 A. Building B, the ground floor.
10 Q. When they were taken out did you hear that they were beaten, first
11 the one and then the other?
12 A. I cannot remember that. I also talked to their family in
14 Q. You say that you were thrown out of the kitchen. If I understood
15 you correctly, during the examination in chief, you said that you were
16 returned to the kitchen later?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you remember which time of the year it was, and when you were
19 returned to the kitchen again?
20 A. Believe me, I can't.
21 Q. And when was the first time you were thrown out of the kitchen?
22 A. It was the beginning, a month or two. At any rate, the beginning,
23 a month, two, three, I'm not 100 per cent sure. When I saw that inmates
24 were fainting from hunger, that's when I was thrown out. So that was the
25 beginning. A month, two, three, I'm not sure.
1 Q. Approximately how much time went by until you were returned to the
2 kitchen again?
17 person to another and you -- and I did my counting and you mentioned 27
18 persons. In the statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, you
19 mentioned 13 persons, less than half. The remaining half, the remaining
20 14 persons, until yesterday, until the examination in chief, you did not
21 mention them. Is it that you just remember these persons now?
22 A. Let me tell you --
23 Q. Is it necessary for me to read out all the names of all the
24 persons you mentioned during the examination in chief as persons who
25 disappeared and that you did not mention before in your statements to the
2 A. Maybe.
3 Q. What jogged your memory so that nine years later you remember the
4 names of these persons and you don't even know the time of year, the
5 year? You say that you cannot remember any of that.
6 A. When I got out into civilisation, after two and a half years, I
7 say myself, for myself, that I even contemplated suicide after this hell.
8 As the years have been going by, my health condition has been improving,
9 if that means anything to you, this kind of answer.
10 Q. Does that mean that your memory is getting better too?
11 A. I never said that I was that smart. I always said that as far as
12 how smart I am is concerned, let others say that.
13 Q. I am asking you about your memory, not about how smart you are.
14 A. I'm talking about how smart I am. I never said for myself that
15 I'm very smart or that I'm very stupid.
16 Q. You mentioned a certain person by the last name of Isanovic. What
17 was his first name?
18 A. I mentioned two Isanovics. I know the first name of one of them,
19 Adnan; and the other one, I only know his last name, Isanovic. I was in
20 contact with his mother, who is in Sweden, and she came to Sarajevo, and I
21 was in contact with her as well; and I was also in contact with the mother
22 who is in Sarajevo, Adnan Isanovic's mother, that is.
23 Q. Tell me, sir: What happened to Adnan Isanovic, if you know?
24 A. Adnan Isanovic came to the camp all beaten up and covered with
25 blood. After that they took him to hospital, like to take care of his
1 wounds. And then in this hospital, this so-called extremist court martial
2 took him and Selimovic and another person out and executed them, killed
3 them, shot them dead.
4 Q. What about the other Isanovic, sir, the one whose name you do not
6 A. The other Isanovic, he was beat up in the camp immediately, from
7 the very outset, he and a young man by the name of Cedic, and shortly
8 after that he was taken out and killed.
9 Q. So soon after you were detained?
10 A. Perhaps a month or two later. I cannot be very specific in terms
11 of days or whatever, but he was beaten, battered, taken away, and killed.
12 Q. Sir, when you were exchanged, was Mr. Zekovic with you at the
14 A. When I was exchanged, Mr. Zekovic was not with me,
15 because -- because 12 of us were returned to Kula and we were exchanged
16 after that; actually, three or four days after all exchanges.
17 Q. Do you know when Mr. Zekovic was exchanged?
18 A. If we're talking about Ekrem Zekovic --
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. There are two Zekovics. One was at the beginning, a few months;
21 his brother, whereas he was exchanged at the end of all exchanges, on the
22 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge in Sarajevo. That is to say, if I was exchanged
23 on the 10th of October, he was perhaps -- well, I don't know. I can't
24 remember. A few days later. The only dates I remembered in my life was
25 when I was detained and when I was released, so then this was the 10th of
1 October or a few days before that.
2 Q. Did you leave the KP Dom in Foca together with Ekrem Zekovic on
3 the same day to go to be exchanged?
4 A. Yes, except that 12 of us were kept for a few days longer, whereas
5 they were released.
6 Q. When this exchange was carried out, were the representatives of
7 the military present, of the army?
8 A. No way. Only the representative of the International Red Cross.
9 The representatives of the army, no way.
10 Q. Was a person named Paprica present perhaps?
11 A. I can't remember. I remember that notorious miscreant only from
12 the camp, the one who was locked up in the Serb prison.
13 Q. If you remember him as notorious, how come you do not remember
14 whether he was involved in the same exchange?
15 A. The Paprica that I know as a notorious man was not with me during
16 the exchange. A high-ranking policeman was with me. We had to call him
17 an officer. I think that in that bus, Krnojelac's son was there too, two
18 or three others, and a driver.
19 Q. Did the driver wear a military uniform or a police uniform?
20 A. Nothing. Nothing. No such thing at that time. I think he was
21 wearing civilian clothes.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this may sound truly
23 incredible to you, but the Defence actually has no more questions.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. I won't comment on that.
25 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution has some more
3 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
4 Q. Witness, in relation to the fate of certain victims, you mentioned
5 that you saw them being taken -- when they were being taken, and you were
6 in the kitchen, and specifically you mentioned the caldron where you
7 were. Was it within the building or was this caldron in front of the
8 kitchen, outside?
9 A. The caldron was outside, because this caldron needed firewood,
10 lots of firewood that we put underneath it, so it was within the compound
11 but in front of the kitchen.
12 Q. And you were also asked who was working with you in the kitchen,
13 who of the detainees, and I would like to know: Did you ever work with
14 the cook Izet Skender, or do you know such a person?
15 A. Rasim, the one who was there, I remember him. And there were
16 three other men together with me. I worked there very briefly. They were
17 from the surrounding area, from localities there, but right now their
18 names escape me. I can only say that one of them -- one of them is from
19 Sukovac. I think that he was a legal man who worked at the hotel in
20 Foca. I can't remember his last name. He went missing and he was
21 killed. I can't remember his last name.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, when the Defence counsel asked you
23 why you didn't mention certain victims in previous statements, I just want
24 to know: When names are put to you, like I did in your
25 examination-in-chief, does that help you to remember the fate of certain
2 A. It helps me 100 per cent. When somebody puts their names to me,
3 that helps me.
4 Q. And do you know, besides those that we have discussed now very
5 detailed, do you know of other people that were taken away in the same
6 manner and disappeared that we did not discuss yet?
7 A. I know hundreds of young men who ended up the same way. Guards
8 would come and say --
9 Q. Witness, thank you. It was --
10 A. At any rate, I knew hundreds of young men.
11 Q. Witness, now a completely different question. Yesterday, when the
12 Defence counsel asked you about the hygienic conditions in the KP Dom, you
13 said, "They were excellent, what we did, that is." That was your exact
14 answer. And I would like to clarify this remark. Did you have showers in
15 the rooms?
16 A. No way. We did not have showers in rooms, but a year or two
17 later, we got this going. To tell you the truth, they didn't even know
18 how to maintain this. So when the International Red Cross came, with the
19 help of the International Red Cross, and given the fact that we were
20 begging for this, and we cleaned all of this ourselves and we paid a lot
21 of attention to hygiene, because otherwise we would have all been gone.
22 We would have succumbed to our hunger and the hygienic conditions and
23 everything. And we also beseeched the International Red Cross when they
24 came, once a month or every two months or every three months or whatever.
25 Q. In the first year of your detention, did you take showers
1 occasionally, and if so, in which periods? Which -- how often, how often
2 in what time periods?
3 A. Our showers, I mean this KP Dom was used for prisoners before the
4 war and there were lots of faucets. Some of them were working and others
5 were not working so we washed by these faucets. There were also some
6 people who had lice and then we washed these people several times, with
7 cold water of course, so that they could get rid of these lice. We paid
8 attention to hygiene as much as we could. Even if we were to die, we
9 wanted to be clean.
10 Q. And you said you washed with cold water. Was no hot water
12 A. After that, again, a year went by and the other year went by and
13 then six months went by, so in this camp itself, the killings and the
14 beatings dwindled. We even got the heating working. There were
15 coal-fired heaters and then this water went to the bathrooms that existed
16 from before the war. This was the second year, the second six months,
17 something like that. I don't know the exact dates, something like that.
18 Q. How was the water supply in the first winter? Did you have water
19 to wash all the time?
20 A. Even if the water would freeze, we would somehow get it going.
21 There was cold water, yes.
22 Q. Did you get sanitary necessities such as soap, shampoo, razors,
23 toothbrushes? Did you get this from the administration or from the prison
25 A. The administration? No way. We were beseeching the International
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Red Cross so they started giving this to us. And of course, we had to put
2 in a request with the KP Dom as well, but they started bringing this to us
3 as the years went by.
4 Q. Did you have change of clothes regularly?
5 A. I arrived in the KP Dom in the same clothes that I was wearing at
6 home, and that was it. New clothes? No way. However, the previous
7 detainees had left some of their clothes in the room so we used their
8 clothes. And towards the end of these two and a half years, the
9 International Red Cross gave us some kind of jackets and we left the place
10 wearing those jackets.
11 Q. Witness, now, another complex. You said that when you arrived in
12 the KP Dom, at the entrance, you were told that you would be interviewed
13 and stay for some days. Was this actually said to you or did you yourself
14 think that would happen?
15 A. No, no, no. All those who came in, because I've already said two
16 or three days, and they would say, "Oh, yes. We were told also two or
17 three days. Don't you worry, you will be here two or three days, and then
18 you will go home you will be free."
19 Q. Witness, we have to be very specific now. I would like to know
20 what you were told when you arrived there, just you. When you arrived at
21 the entrance, were you told something about what would happen?
22 A. My wife -- I've just remembered that my wife also wondered,
23 "What's this? What is this? How can it be?" "Well, you will be here
24 two or three days, just so that you are questioned, so that they can ask
25 their questions." I don't know what they had in mind. "Everything will
1 be fine, there will be no problem."
2 Q. Who said that? And if you know, say it. If you don't know, say
3 you don't know.
4 A. There was Milorad Krnojelac, not knowing but just to see him in
5 front of the entrance. I mean, I did not know what he was, but my wife
6 asked him, as a Serb, because Serbs were the ones who were detaining us,
7 and I said not those Serbs -- not those Serbs, but Serbs, and I can't say
8 it now, and I've said it several times in this court, and he also shrugged
9 his shoulders, "Oh, this is nothing. It will be over in no time at all,
10 two or three days." And I also heard the same thing from other people,
11 that they had been told the same thing.
12 Q. Witness, we have to be absolutely clear about this point. Did he
13 say that? I mean Mr. Krnojelac, did he say that to you or did someone
14 else say that to you? If you know, tell us.
15 A. Come, I can't say 100 per cent but I was there at the entrance, I
16 heard. He was at the entrance and Cancar was there. He was a policeman
17 in the KP Dom. He took down our names at the entrance. "Nothing, nothing
18 will happen, that will be it." That is what I heard. I can't 100 per
19 cent repeat.
20 Q. No, it's -- you are not asked to repeat 100 per cent what exactly
21 was said. You only are asked who said that, if you remember who said
23 A. I think it was Krnojelac.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave -- I
1 apologise. The witness said that he -- who could not identify 100 per
2 cent who had said it, and what it says here is "repeat."
3 JUDGE HUNT: What do you say it should be?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness said, but he
5 can confirm it, that he could not identify 100 per cent, when the question
6 was, who said it.
7 JUDGE HUNT: No. The previous answer, "I can't say 100 per cent,
8 but I was there at the entrance." That's clear.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 52, line 10.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. The translation that came out was, "I can't 100
11 per cent repeat it," I think he said. And that's picked up by the next
12 question: "You are not being asked to repeat 100 per cent what exactly
13 was said. You are only being asked who said that." But you've got what
14 you will require.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence heard, because we speak
16 the same language, that the witness said that he could not identify 100
17 per cent. Not "repeat."
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's a matter of translation, I'm afraid. We
19 better get it cleared up from the witness.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
21 Q. Witness, you said that Mr. Krnojelac was there and Mr. Cancar was
22 there. Are you sure about that?
23 A. Sure 100 per cent.
24 Q. And when you said -- when I asked you who said these words, like,
25 "You have to stay and you have to answer questions," I asked you who said
1 that. And what is your answer to this?
2 A. When you asked me who had said it, I said at the entrance and I
3 repeat it, as we were entering the camp, in front of the camp entrance, I
4 think it was my wife who addressed the person concerned because she knew
5 him, and I think, without looking any more, because I could see all the
6 ill-treatment in the vehicle and at the entrance, so I'm not sure 100 per
7 cent if that same person replied. But the reply came from that place, one
8 hundred per cent. And then when I entered the room, I asked her, "Well,
9 what was it?" Says she, "Well, we'll soon be off," and one knows who was
10 at the entrance and who was asked that question, why do I enter and how,
11 not knowing anything, just seeing a familiar face at the entrance.
12 Q. Witness, you said "this certain person." Who is the certain
13 person? I mean, you cannot leave it that way. You have to say the name?
14 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that what he has --
15 Just one moment, sir.
16 What he has suggested is he cannot be sure. He thought it was
17 somebody. He can't be sure. Now, on that basis, how much further can you
18 take it? That's what I was trying to say when Mr. Bakrac interrupted me.
19 He's got an answer in his favour. He cannot be sure. Well, that's the
20 end of it, as far as I can see. I don't know why we're spending all this
21 time on it.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, I beg you
23 to accept my apologies. Perhaps we were waiting for the interpretation or
24 perhaps I was trying to understand you in English, and I therefore rushed
25 in. But I think I'm entitled to one more question, because it would arise
1 from additional -- from redirect questions from my learned friend, and it
2 has to do with hygiene.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Before you do that, I've just been through the
4 transcript. The Prosecution asked no questions about hygiene in chief, at
5 all. At one stage the witness referred to the word "hygiene," but not in
6 any way describing what it was like. It was you who raised the issue in
7 cross-examination. The witness gave a very curious answer. In fact, I
8 wrote it down myself: Hygiene was excellent - or the hygiene conditions,
9 I think, were excellent - what we did, that is. Now, you left it there,
10 and having left it there, the Prosecution was entitled to ask him what he
11 meant. Now, if you had asked some questions then, as you were entitled
12 to, you may have got it sorted out, but you can't have another go after
13 re-examination. You raised it and left it, and the Prosecution has taken
14 it further. How much further, I'm not sure, frankly. I don't really
15 myself see that there's any additional evidence on the point at all except
16 about whether or not they had hot water or cold water, and they didn't
17 have showers until some time later, and as I understand it, that's not
18 really in dispute. So what do you say you should be entitled to test now
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am aware that I
21 raised the issue, and that is why I did not object to the Prosecution
22 comments. But when we heard the reply that the conditions were excellent,
23 it almost overlapped with what the witness said in his statement to the
24 OTP. However, in redirect the Prosecution went a step further, and I
25 merely wanted to draw the attention of the witness to what he told the OTP
1 in one of his statements. It was when I asked him, that question was very
2 similar to the one that the OTP has asked, and I did not think there was
3 any need to waste any more time on this, because he repeated what had been
4 written down. But the redirect opened a broader range of these questions;
5 that is, the witness mentioned some details which were not mentioned
6 anywhere before.
7 JUDGE HUNT: If the witness had simply said the hygienic
8 conditions were excellent, I would agree entirely, but he added something,
9 and it was such an unusual answer that I wrote it down in case there was
10 no re-examination about it, because I was going to ask him what he meant:
11 "What we did, that is." Now, that qualified the answer which he had
12 given about the hygienic conditions being excellent. So he hasn't
13 followed what he said -- or what you say he said in the statement. I
14 haven't checked it. Now, that's where cross-examining counsel has the
15 right to say, "What do you mean by that?" But you didn't; you left it
16 there, with a very qualified answer, and the Prosecution was entitled to
17 say, "What did you mean?" Now, on that, I don't see why you should have a
18 right to now have another go. If that's what he said in his statement,
19 that may be so, but what he has actually now said in re-examination is not
20 in conflict with any of the other evidence, so far as I can recall. We've
21 got evidence from a number of witnesses about this question of hot water
22 and cold water and whether they had showers or not, and none of it was
23 ever disputed. If all you want to say is, "Well, that is different to
24 what you told the OTP," I think you've got enough of those, don't you?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the easiest
1 solution will be, if the OTP agrees, of course, to resolve the dilemma, to
2 admit into evidence the first statement given to the OTP, ID138 and 138A.
3 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
4 JUDGE HUNT: That's just the same as you having a further chance
5 to cross-examine. I'm afraid you'll have to do it all at once or not at
6 all. But as I said, have you not got enough conflicts between his
7 evidence and what he told the OTP? I don't see that you're prejudiced and
8 I don't see that we should break a fundamental rule of cross-examination.
9 You cross-examine once, unless something new is raised that you hadn't
10 dealt with in cross-examination. So your application is refused.
11 Is there anything further from the witness now?
12 Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now free to leave.
13 You should, however, wait while the blinds are lowered so that you will
14 not be seen by members of the public as you leave.
15 Now, whilst the other witness is coming, can we deal with those
16 matters that you were to give us after the week's break, Mr. Bakrac?
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The Defence tried
19 to go through all the transcripts, and in Witness 111 and Witness 182, we
20 found that we challenged the testimony that detainees were given little
21 food. But your question was to locate the place in the transcript, and
22 we, I believe, did that. That is, we did not find the place where it is
23 said that there was a difference in the quantity of food given to
24 detainees or not, but it had to do with the witness, when Mr. Vasic
25 cross-examined the witness about the food that had been thrown away.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we've been through that, and that didn't raise
2 the issue. You certainly have raised an issue as to whether or not there
3 was enough food to go around, but there has been no dispute at any stage,
4 that we can find in the transcript, that the Muslim detainees received
5 less food than the others. Now, I think that that is probably the end of
7 What about the photographs? You were going to produce some
8 photographs to the Prosecution so that if any witness is called by the
9 Prosecution from now on, they can be shown these photographs as to what
10 you can see from the top floor windows.
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I have the
12 photographs in my briefcase. I simply thought I would talk to the OTP. I
13 must have misunderstood, and I apologise. I can show them to the OTP so
14 that they can go through those photographs. No request was made in this
15 regard, so that ...
16 JUDGE HUNT: What I had suggested to you was that you had an
17 obligation to put them to the witnesses, any witnesses who said that they
18 could see something from the top window, you had to show them these
19 photographs. And that the Prosecution may want to recall some of their
20 witnesses to deal with them. So if you would produce those to the OTP so
21 that we can get that matter out of the way, and if they want to recall any
22 witnesses whilst they're still in their case, they may do so.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I did understand
25 what you meant. But after we obtained those photographs, that is, since
1 the 12th of February, we did not have any witness testifying about that,
2 and that is why there was no need to show them to those witnesses. But we
3 shall place those photographs at the disposal of the Prosecution.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That would be a very good idea. Thank you very
6 Yes, Ms. Kuo.
7 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honours. This next witness is testifying
8 without protective measures.
9 JUDGE HUNT: What about the pseudonym?
10 MS. KUO: He has not asked for a pseudonym.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
12 MS. KUO: However, there is a name sheet with the name of a
13 different witness who does have protective measures, and I wish to have
14 that entered in evidence. It's before the witness at the moment.
15 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P434 and it will be under seal.
16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE HUNT: And so that we can cross-reference things in the
18 various documents we've got, has this witness been known to date as
20 MS. KUO: Yes, precisely.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
22 MS. KUO: I might also add that he's been referenced in the
23 indictment under initials EZ.
24 JUDGE HUNT: EZ.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, would you make the solemn declaration in
1 the document which the usher is showing you.
2 WITNESS: EKREM ZEKOVIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter].
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.
7 Ms. Kuo.
8 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
9 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please tell us your name.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the
13 A. Ekrem Zekovic.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you come closer to the microphone, and the
15 usher might also turn on the other microphone.
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you.
18 MS. KUO:
19 Q. Mr. Zekovic, when were you born?
20 A. I was born on the 6th of December, 1950, in Foca.
21 Q. In 1992, where did you live?
22 A. I lived in Foca, Nurije Pozderca Street, in the centre.
23 Q. Were you married and did you have children?
24 A. Yes, I was married, and with two children.
25 Q. What kind of work did you do?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. 1992? I worked for Unis, which is a wire factory.
2 Q. What was your function? What kind of work did you specialise in?
3 A. I was a metal worker, dealing with grinding wheels and maintenance
4 of machinery, machine tools, and things of the sort.
5 Q. What ethnicity are you?
6 A. Muslim, a Bosniak.
7 Q. Mr. Zekovic, before you you see a sheet of paper that has been
8 entered as Exhibit P434. There is a name on it and also a pseudonym. If
9 you wish to refer to this person at any time, could you please not use his
10 name but use the pseudonym or his number?
11 Mr. Zekovic, when the war started in Foca in April of 1992, where
12 were you?
13 A. At home.
14 Q. Did you stay at home while the war lasted?
15 A. Yes, throughout, until I was taken away from home to the camp.
16 Q. Did you ever go to work during that time?
17 A. Yes. That morning, I did go to work. The war had already begun
18 but nobody -- nobody turned up except a couple of us, so I went back
19 home. After, I can't tell you, seven or ten days later, on the media or
20 rather Radio Foca, we were all called to report to our workplaces and so I
21 did, the next day, with a friend of mine, who is now gone, who was in the
22 camp, and we spent a couple of hours at work. Our boss then turned us
23 back. He told us to go home and not to come again until we were called
24 once again, something to that effect. This other friend who was with me,
25 he was a Muslim, and that day, Serbs stayed at work. Not all of them. I
1 don't mean that they all had turned up for work but there were about ten
2 or 15 of them.
3 Q. But in other words, only the Muslims were told to go home; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you ever hear any public announcements during this time for
8 A. Yes, very often.
9 Q. Was it directed toward Serbs, Muslims or the general population?
10 A. Serbs only via -- on the Radio Foca and the public address
11 system. That is a vehicle which drove with loudspeakers around the town.
12 Q. Do you remember what the mobilisation calls were specifically,
13 what was said?
14 A. Well, not exactly, not word for word, but all military conscripts
15 were being invited to report to the army command to be given their combat
16 assignments. And at the same time, rigorous -- everybody who failed to
17 report was threatened with rigorous sanctions. And it is quite clear that
18 it had nothing to do with us because we were forbidden to move around the
19 town. At the end of my street, there were Serbs bearing arms. My
20 neighbours, and they did not allow us to leave the room, let alone go and
21 report to the command.
22 Q. Did you hear any specific announcements restricting the movement
23 of Muslims?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. How was this communicated?
1 A. Radio Foca and those -- those Serbs who were my neighbours, they
2 transmitted the information to us that we were not to move around, that we
3 were not to visit any of our neighbours, and that we were not to receive
4 any visits. And shortly afterwards, our telephones were cut off.
5 Q. Were the movements of Muslims restricted throughout Foca or only
6 in certain sections?
7 A. In the area of Foca.
8 Q. Did you need a permit to move around? Were you allowed to move
9 around if you had a permit or if you were accompanied by a Serb?
10 A. Yes. One needed a permit, or rather one could move only with an
11 escort of a kind. I went to the municipal hall with a female neighbour of
12 mine to apply for this pass, for these papers to move about, and when they
13 asked me where I wanted to go, they said that for the centre in the strict
14 sense of the word, all I needed was some escort.
15 Q. Were you ever stopped on the street from moving around without
17 A. Well, I -- it was a stroke of luck, they did not recognise me but,
18 they did my brother.
19 Q. What happened to your brother?
20 A. My brother once went out with a neighbour, a Serb, and was on his
21 way to visit us, and he lived some 300 or 400 metres away from us, maybe
22 500 metres, and he came to us with that neighbour. They stayed for a
23 while, and he then was off home, intending to go through the centre of the
24 town, and there he was intercepted by Montenegrins, volunteers who had
25 come from Montenegro, and took both of them to the KP Dom. That Serb
1 received a few slaps in his face, and told not to move around, socialise
2 with Muslims any longer, and my brother was kept in the camp.
3 Q. When was your brothers arrested, do you remember?
4 A. I don't know the exact date. It was sometime in mid-April.
5 Q. How long was your brother kept at KP Dom?
6 A. I wouldn't know it to a day but about two, two and a half months.
7 Q. Could you tell us your brother's name?
8 A. Enes Zekovic.
9 Q. Were you ever told to surrender a weapon during this time?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who told you to surrender weapons?
12 A. My neighbours.
13 Q. What did they tell you?
14 A. Indirectly, they said they knew who had any weapons and it would
15 be better for us to turn them over, because they were possessed of all the
16 implementation from the police. And I had a pistol, a revolver, I had a
17 permit for it, all the papers. So I went to my neighbour, Davidovic, to
18 his home, and I carried the pistol and all the bullets and left them
20 Q. Was your house, or rather apartment, searched during this time?
21 A. Oh, yes, yes, very often during that period of time. I don't know
22 how many times, but very many times.
23 Q. Who searched your apartment?
24 A. Why, those volunteers who had come from Serbia and together with
25 those local Serbs in my street. It also happened after I went to the
2 Q. Were Muslims rounded up in the street at this time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When and how?
5 A. Well, one day, those volunteers broke into our street from all
6 sides and ordered us all to come out of our houses, from our flats, and
7 they rounded us up in one place, in the cellar of my house, and at the
8 other end of the street was another group of people who lived there at the
9 end of the street.
10 Q. Did they do anything to you when you were rounded up?
11 A. Yes. They wanted detailed information about who was still there,
12 who had left. And about a man, a neighbour of mine, they said, "Has he
13 left?" And I looked around and he wasn't there with us. And then they
14 pointed a weapon at me and ordered me to go into his flat. They were
15 afraid that he might fire from there or, I don't know, and with us in the
16 group was also a woman, a neighbour, who was a Serb, and another Serb
17 neighbour of ours recognised her and told her, "Be off home. What are you
18 doing here? You don't belong here."
19 Q. And was anything further done to the Muslims who were gathered in
20 those two groups that day?
21 A. There was another neighbour of mine, he was sick. I think he had
22 some mental problem. He had difficulty moving around. And he simply was
23 quite lost there and he was extended first aid. And those volunteers or
24 whatever who had come from Serbia thought that he was pretending. They
25 wanted to kill him but they did not, not then.
1 Q. You mentioned volunteers from Serbia. Could you tell us what they
2 were wearing? Were they wearing uniforms or civilian clothes?
3 A. They were wearing uniforms, camouflage uniforms. They had arm
4 bands saying the Serb Guard.
5 Q. Do you know in what capacity they were acting? Whether they had
6 authority from the town authorities?
7 A. Later, a Serb who had come from Serbia -- actually, it so happened
8 he saw my wife and children and they seemed to be very similar to his
9 sister and her children, and he came every day and he said that the local
10 Serbs had called them in, and that in Foca, they were told that 500 Serbs
11 had been slaughtered and then when they arrived they realised that the
12 situation was the other way around and this soldier came every day. And
13 he explicitly threatened our neighbours, saying that they mustn't do a
14 thing to us, and at my wife's request to try to intervene, in order to
15 have me released, he said, "I'll try. I'll check. If anybody suspects
16 him of anything or charges him with something, there is nothing that can
17 be done. And, if not, when he will be released, God knows." Just let me
18 finish this. As he was leaving from there, I don't know where they were
19 going after that, he said, "I'm leaving you and may God help you. And
20 knowing what these people of yours are like, may God help you and may all
21 end well."
22 Q. Mr. Zekovic, when were you arrested?
23 A. I was arrested in the morning, on the 20th of May, 1992 of course.
24 Q. Who arrested you?
25 A. A kind of military police came. That's what they call themselves.
1 Q. Did you know them?
2 A. I knew one of them. I knew one of them well and I knew another
3 one just by sight.
4 Q. Could you tell us their names?
5 A. Zoran Vukovic and the taxi driver Jegdic. My wife knows him very
6 well because he brought his children to the children's clinic where she
7 had worked.
8 Q. Where did they arrest you?
9 A. At home. That morning it was said that children were allegedly
10 supposed to go to school, that some kind of normal life would continue.
11 My wife took the children to school in the morning. She asked whether we
12 would have coffee before she would take the children to school or
13 afterwards, and I said, "You go and take the children to school and I'll
14 take a bath and then we'll have coffee." She came back. I had had a
15 bath, and then these policemen came and told me to go out. I got out, and
16 my hair was still wet and I still even had a towel. They said it was
17 necessary for me to go to the KP Dom to make a statement. And then I
18 said, "Well, no problem, but can I go back home and get my cigarettes?"
19 And they said, "It's not necessary. You're just going to spend a few
20 hours there. There's no problem." My mother came out there in front of
21 the house too, and she gave me a cap because my hair was wet.
22 Q. Where did they take you?
23 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you very well. Oh, where they took me.
24 They took us to the KP Dom in a car.
25 Q. When you arrived at KP Dom, where were you taken?
1 A. When we arrived at the KP Dom, they took us into an area. I don't
2 know what it's called really. At the entrance to the KP Dom they searched
4 Q. And you said -- you used the plural, "us." Who else was taken
5 with you to the KP Dom?
6 A. There were four more neighbours of mine. Is it necessary for me
7 to give their names?
8 Q. If you know them, please give us their names, if you know their
9 names still.
10 A. Yes. Hasan Lojo was with me, Dzenan Karabegovic. He had already
11 been arrested once before that and he was in the camp at Livade, but then
12 he was released. Then who else was brought with me? Krso. (redacted)
15 Q. After you were searched at the KP Dom, where were you taken?
16 A. We were taken to Room 18.
17 Q. How long did you stay in Room 18?
18 A. I stayed in Room 18 perhaps for about two and a half months.
19 Afterwards, a working room was established. All of us who went out to
20 work were separated and put into one room, because it was easier for the
21 guards that way to take us to work.
22 Q. Do you remember what number that room was?
23 A. Room 16. That is below Room 18.
24 Q. And how long were you in Room 16?
25 A. I don't know these details very well. We were there for a while.
1 I don't know. And then these so-called exchanges started, intensively, so
2 in the summer of 1992, July, August, September. The number of people in
3 camp went down and we were somehow concentrated in less rooms.
4 Q. Let's talk about the work group that you mentioned. What kind of
5 work did you do as part of this group?
6 A. I was in the so-called metal plant, which was within the KP Dom
7 before the war as well. We did all sorts of things. We repaired cars,
8 then we did locksmiths' jobs, and very often we went all over town,
9 wherever something was supposed to be done: at the hospital, at the
10 bakery, in Maglic. I even went to Unis, my former company. We went to
11 quite a few places: the hotel, et cetera.
12 Q. What was the time period when you worked in the metal workshop?
13 A. That was from mid-July, something like that - I don't know
14 exactly - the 15th, the 10th of July, until I escaped from the camp, or
15 rather, until I tried to escape from the camp.
16 Q. When was that?
17 A. When I tried to escape, you mean?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. That was on the 8th of July, 1993.
20 Q. And where was the next place that you worked after the metal
22 A. The furniture factory within the KP Dom, within the KP Dom
23 compound. That's where I worked, for about three, three and a half
24 months, something like that, until mid-December 1993.
25 Q. And did you work any place after that?
1 A. Yes. Yes. I worked for six months in the brown coal mine at
3 Q. Now, let's talk about the metal workshop. When you worked there,
4 who was your supervisor?
5 A. The supervisor of the metal workshop was Relja Golijanin.
6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, in Exhibit P3, which is the employee list,
7 this is listed as number 40.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
9 MS. KUO:
10 Q. Do you know who was his boss, who was above him in the KP Dom
12 A. The warden of the KP Dom.
13 Q. Who was that?
14 A. Milorad Krnojelac.
15 Q. How did you know that he was the warden?
16 A. Of course I did. I knew that as soon as I got detained. The
17 people who had been detained before me knew that. Also later this was
18 corroborated. I also had direct contacts with him within the metal
19 workshop, and everybody addressed him as "Mr. Warden."
20 Q. What kind of contact did you have with him in the metal workshop?
21 A. In the summer of 1992 we were supposed to do some locksmiths' jobs
22 at his house. We were making a staircase and some railing, and then he
23 would come to see us at the metal workshop and he had contact with us.
24 Q. Did he speak to you inside the metal workshop?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. What did he say?
2 A. Once we were doing something, he came and he gave us some kind of
3 new instructions. One of the workers who was working with me - he was
4 from Jelec - said, "Relja told us to do something different." And he
5 said, "You just do it the way I told you to do it and tell him that Micko
6 said so."
7 Q. And while he gave this instruction, were you or the other worker
8 working on the metal staircase for his house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever actually go to his house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. Well, that was in the summer of 1992. I don't know the exact date
14 now. It was in August, possibly the beginning of September, something
15 like that. I went two or three times.
16 Q. Could you tell us the condition of Mr. Krnojelac's house when you
17 saw it?
18 A. Burned.
19 Q. And what were you supposed to do there?
20 A. We were supposed to make a staircase that would lead from the
21 second floor to the attic, and also some kind of railing. I don't know.
22 Q. How many detainees went?
23 A. Two or three of us went. It depended. Usually three. I went
24 three times.
25 Q. During those three times, did you see Mr. Krnojelac there?
1 A. Yes. He stopped by once.
2 Q. What kind of contact did you have with him? Did he say anything?
3 A. Well, he came to see how things were going. I don't know. Talked
4 to the guards. There was a guard with us invariably, of course.
5 Q. So would you say it was obvious that you were detainees from the
6 KP Dom who were there to work?
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Do you recall the conversation that Mr. Krnojelac had with the
10 A. Not really, not really, what they discussed, no.
11 Q. Were members of Mr. Krnojelac's family there?
12 A. I didn't see any. I don't know. Perhaps his son came. There
13 were some people who came, who passed by.
14 Q. While you worked at Mr. Krnojelac's house on the three occasions
15 or so, were you treated correctly or mistreated by Mr. Krnojelac or
16 members of his family?
17 A. We were not mistreated.
18 Q. During the time -- you said you were guarded when you went to his
19 house. Was there a time when you were able to make contact with somebody
20 in the -- let's say the outside world?
21 A. Of course. There was always a guard with us when we worked at the
22 metal workshop and when we went outside. When I went the second time, I
23 managed to establish contact with a woman who lived there in the
24 neighbouring house. I went to take a bottle of water. And I asked her to
25 call my family at Pod Musalom, where I had lived. She tried to use the
1 phone but, of course, the phones were disconnected. And that woman
2 walked. She went to my house on foot and she contacted my wife. She
3 called my wife to come.
4 And my wife came about an hour later with my aunt, because my
5 uncle was also detained at the KP Dom, at the camp. She came in front of
6 the house. I saw her as she was coming, and I went down, so we met in
7 front of the house. She brought some things for me, some small things and
8 some food, and also my aunt did.
9 At that moment, Relja came. The guard was on the other side of
10 the house so he didn't see this, and he didn't prevent it from happening.
11 However, Relja started yelling and saying that this was strictly forbidden
12 to have any kind of contacts or visits. And he drove them away
13 immediately, and I said, "Relja, for goodness sakes, why? I'm not a
14 criminal or something like that." And he said, "Those are our orders, and
15 that's it. There is no debating this." My wife went away immediately,
16 and my aunt did too.
17 Q. Were you allowed to take the things they brought for you?
18 A. The things remained. There were some socks there, some underwear,
19 and a bit of food. And a pack of cigarettes, yes.
20 Q. Did you ever see the warden, Mr. Krnojelac, at any other work site
21 outside the KP Dom when you were taken out?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was there a time when you went to fix the door of a restaurant
24 just outside the KP Dom?
25 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's right.
1 Q. To clarify, was that restaurant a part of KP Dom?
2 A. Yes, yes. It was part of the KP Dom but it was outside the KP Dom
4 Q. What was it being used for?
5 A. Before the war, that restaurant was used as a restaurant for
6 delivering meals to the staff of the KP Dom and that's where they came for
7 coffee and things like that. And when prisoners received visitors, that's
8 where they met, because they also had visitation rooms upstairs. That is
9 to say, where prisoners could meet their family members.
10 Q. And during the -- let's say during the war, do you know if anybody
11 was living there, or being housed there?
12 A. Yes. At that time, the members of the paramilitary units were
13 there, those who had come from Serbia. They were called the White Eagles.
14 Q. Do you know what part specifically they were in?
15 A. They were upstairs, on the upper floor of that restaurant. That's
16 where there were rooms that could be used as bedrooms. That's where they
18 Q. Why were you taken to the restaurant?
19 A. During the restaurant -- during the night, that restaurant was
20 broken into. The door had been broken and Relja said that I should go
21 there and take whatever was needed in order to close this, seal it off
22 completely. I went with Jovo, nicknamed Futa, Jovo Dzokic, a guard. As
23 we were going towards that restaurant, he said, "Zeka, watch out, there is
24 some kind of soldiers here," whatever he said, "and I'm sure that they are
25 going to provoke you and abuse you, but you try to remain calm and just
1 live through it and keep quiet."
2 Q. Did soldiers in fact try to provoke you?
3 A. Yes, yes. We had already finished working when they noticed me,
4 and they knew immediately who I was since I was being escorted by a guard,
5 and they started mistreating me in different ways. At that moment, the
6 warden came by. I don't know whether he was going to town or coming from
7 town. But I heard him telling them to go away. This guard, who was with
8 me, did not react at all, because it was obvious that he was afraid of
9 people like that too.
10 Q. Afraid of people like what?
11 A. Well, these paramilitary units that had come from Serbia.
12 Everybody was afraid of them, Relja Golijanin in particular.
13 Q. When you saw the warden -- and I assume that's Mr. Krnojelac,
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he seem to be afraid of the paramilitaries?
17 A. No, no. He simply acted with authority and they went away. There
18 was no problem because they knew who he was. Whether they knew actually,
19 I don't know.
20 Q. In what way did he act with authority? Can you describe it? It
21 may be difficult to describe. Did he say or act in a particular way?
22 A. Well, it's hard. It's hard to describe that, but one could notice
23 it and see it from the way he acted, and then also by virtue of the fact
24 that they went away and that all of it went by without any problems
25 whatsoever. That shows that they respected him.
1 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac inside the KP Dom? You described
2 the metal workshop but other than the contact there, did you see him in
3 other places within the KP Dom?
4 A. Very often, very often, especially during the first months.
5 Q. What did you see him doing?
6 A. Well, usually they would go for breakfast or for a snack, I don't
7 know, to a part of the restaurant that was within the compound of the
8 camp, or rather the previous prison. And then also several times, related
9 to other things, he came in, either on his own or with other people.
10 Q. Did you see him during the daytime?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see him during the night-time?
13 A. Come into the compound during the night? That was in the
14 afternoon. That was in the evening. I would often see him through the
15 window of his office.
16 Q. And where was his office?
17 A. His office was on the second floor of the old wing of the
18 administration building.
19 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
20 witness shown Exhibit P6/3.
21 Q. Witness, you've said that it was the second floor of the
22 administration building. Could you show us where it is on this diagram,
23 if you can?
24 A. Yes. Yes. It's a bit the other way. Yes, this is the entrance,
25 this is the old wing of the building, this is the new wing of the
1 building. On the second floor of this building here, that's where it
2 was. My Room 18 was over here on the second floor. So from the window of
3 this room, I could see the windows of his office, there.
4 MS. KUO: The record should reflect that the witness has pointed
5 out as the office he's referring to what other witnesses have already
6 identified as the warden's office.
7 JUDGE HUNT: But there may be an argument later, and it had better
8 be sorted out now. When he first described where was his office, he said
9 his office was on the second floor of the old wing of the administration
10 building. He's now described this as the new section of it. We don't
11 anywhere else have, I think, a distinction drawn between old and new wings
12 of the administration building. Clearly you're right - he did point to
13 the area where a number of other witnesses have said they had seen
14 Mr. Krnojelac - but I don't want there to be some problem about this
15 description of old and new.
16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Zekovic, you used the words "old" and "new" parts of the
18 administration building. Could you just explain to us, by showing us,
19 which is the new part and which is the old part, and just be a little bit
20 clearer about that? If you look at the diagram, the part to the left of
21 the entrance, is that the old or the new part?
22 A. Yes. This is the old part of the building. This is the new part
23 of the administration building. This is the entrance. This is where the
24 entrance office is, on the left-hand side. This is the entrance into the
25 compound of the prison. This is the metal gate. In the old part of the
1 administration building, on this right side, facing the street, there was
2 a long hall leading all the way to the end of the building, and then there
3 was a staircase that went upstairs. Because I came to his office, or
4 rather, the office of his secretary. I had to do something about the
5 furnace. This was a furnace that was used for heating.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I think that that's raised yet another
7 problem, because he said facing the street or the road on the right-hand
8 side. But certainly when he started to show us on the map, what we see on
9 the left-hand side of the entrance he described as the new part of the
10 building, and what is on the right-hand side of the entrance is the old
11 part of the building. Now, if we can all agree upon that, it will
12 probably solve all of our problems that were raised earlier, but there was
13 just that one reference to facing the street from -- I think it was on the
14 right-hand side. Facing from the street it's on the right-hand side. I
15 don't know whether he is left-handed, but I have discovered that
16 left-handed people quite often mix the two of them up. I'm married to
17 one; that's why I can say that from a matter of authority.
18 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I think -- if the Court wishes to have more
19 clarification, I think the fact that he's indicated on the diagram - and
20 that's the purpose for the diagrams, is to make these things absolutely
21 clear - if it's clear to the Court, we're happy with the record.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I'm satisfied. Mr. Bakrac, you would agree
23 that what he was pointing out was in fact to the right side of the
24 entrance and on the second floor?
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not left-handed, but
1 I would agree that he did point out what you had noticed.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, that might be a convenient time,
3 Ms. Kuo. We've had the interpreters and the court reporters working for
4 more than an hour and a half. We'll adjourn now until 2.30.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO:
4 Q. Mr. Zekovic, before the lunch break, you told us that you saw the
5 warden, Mr. Krnojelac, in his office in the afternoon or evening. Could
6 you tell us what time approximately it was when you saw him?
7 A. Well, it happened several times, several times, and the intervals
8 were not regular. Day or two in the morning, then late in the evening.
9 But I should like, Your Honours, to go back to a detail about what we were
10 talking before the break, because there was some question about right and
11 left. I know the distribution of the layout of all the rooms perfectly
12 well, and I'd like to explain that, and I should like to comment that this
13 drawing was very poorly done. Had I known that you needed it, I would
14 have done something better, but I think if you want to use it officially,
15 you should have some more precise drawings. I am perfectly clear about
16 where every room was. Now there was some doubt right or left. I don't
17 know what you meant by this. But the windows of the warden's room faced
18 the inside, the yard of the compound, and they were on the second floor.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zekovic. I think that does clarify things. When
20 you said you saw him sometimes late into the evening, how late was it?
21 Could you say when the latest was that you saw him there?
22 A. Well, very late into the night, late into the night at times,
23 until midnight or so.
24 Q. Could you actually see Mr. Krnojelac inside his office or was
25 there somebody in the office?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Well, it depends on whether the windows were open and whether
2 curtains were drawn or not. At times I would see him. At times I saw
3 also Savo Todovic and Mitar Rasevic and those other guards, and at times,
4 all you could see would be outlines.
5 Q. When you could see Mr. Krnojelac in the office, what was he
7 A. Well, he would be talking with somebody or -- and very often
8 sitting at his desk. I couldn't see that much. I could see more his
9 secretary's room. I saw that one better. And he would have to pass
10 through it.
11 Q. Could you see people coming in and out of his office as well?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you also see him working during the weekends or did you see
14 Mr. Krnojelac in the KP Dom on the weekends?
15 A. Yes, from time to time, yes, he would come. Like the others, Savo
16 Todovic and Mitar Rasevic.
17 Q. And you mentioned seeing Mr. Krnojelac inside the office with
18 Todovic and Rasevic on occasion. Did you see him either inside or --
19 inside his office or anywhere else, consulting, Mr. Krnojelac, Mr. Todovic
20 and Mr. Rasevic, consulting about lists?
21 A. I could not see that. I could not see whether they were having
22 some consultations. I could not hear them. It is indubitable that I used
23 to see him, but the details, what they talked about, what they were
24 consulting each other about, that was impossible, impossible to see or
25 hear from my window. On the other hand, we heard many other things.
1 Q. Did you hear how Mr. Krnojelac got his position as warden?
2 A. Yes, yes, I did hear that.
3 Q. Who told you?
4 A. His brother told me.
5 Q. What was his brother's name?
6 A. His name is Mr. Arso Krnojelac and he used to work for the KP Dom
7 as a driver before the war.
8 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Arsenije Krnojelac is listed in Exhibit P3
9 at number 92.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
11 MS. KUO:
12 Q. How did you have occasion to speak with him?
13 A. That conversation that I just mentioned, I cannot give you the
14 exact date, but it was late in the autumn of 1992, in front of the
15 mechanical shop. We were talking about the situation in general, and then
16 I asked him specifically what is the situation, or rather, did he have any
17 information about villages around, where they came from, because my mother
18 was from a neighbouring village. And he told me how, in the early days of
19 the war, and that was in the summer -- rather, spring 1992, and that he
20 tried to intercede, that he tried to help, to save the Muslims who lived
21 up there. And then he said, and quite sadly, "And who needed all this?
22 Why was all this done? My brother," and these are his words, "My brother,
23 an intellectual - let me tell you, an asshole, an idiot - he accepted this
24 post from the SDS, and people will be called to account for all that is
25 happening here."
1 Q. How did he appear, Arso Krnojelac, when he was saying this? What
2 was his demeanour?
3 A. Mr. Arso was very emotional. One could see that he was very
4 emotional. He was almost tearful when he said that. Because there were
5 people who were sober, who could think right, and knew that one would have
6 to be called to account for that. But the majority, and Mr. Milorad
7 Krnojelac is one of them, and the majority of the staff and guards, they
8 thought that nobody would ever ask any questions, let alone be called to
9 account for all that was done. But later on, as the time went by, many
10 people began to change their attitudes and their way of thinking, and they
11 all tried, they tried to say that, well, they were not to blame, that they
12 had to do it. It was always somebody else who had done it.
13 Q. Did Mr. Arso Krnojelac have a function in the KP Dom when you were
14 there? You said he was a driver before the war. Was he also a driver
15 while you were detained?
16 A. Yes. A plain driver, a normal man, without any authority, any ...
17 We never heard a bad word from him.
18 Q. Did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac with high-level political
19 people inside the KP Dom?
20 A. Oftentimes, in front of the KP Dom, Ivanovic - I can't remember
21 his name - yes, Boro Ivanovic, he came often to the KP Dom, and we knew
22 and it was confirmed later that the command, the military command, had
23 made him responsible for the treatment of us, the Muslims, in the camp.
24 And there were also others who would be in front of the KP Dom or who
25 would come inside the KP Dom, people from the SDS, or rather the military
1 structures and authorities. Once I even saw Vojislav Maksimovic there.
2 Q. Who was Maksimovic?
3 A. Vojislav Maksimovic, he taught literature at the University of
4 Sarajevo. He was born in Ustikolina, one of the leaders and founders of
5 the SDS. Or rather, alongside Velibor Ostojic, Petko Cancar and those
6 others, he was one of the founders of the SDS; and that is, he was a
7 member of the Crisis Staff.
8 Q. Did you see Milorad Krnojelac with Mr. Maksimovic inside the KP
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What were they doing?
12 A. Talked. What about, I could not hear that, because when I worked
13 in the metal shop, I could see many things happening in front of the KP
14 Dom's entrance, and that is some 20 to 30 metres away.
15 Q. Did you ever see Miro Stanic at the KP Dom?
16 A. Yes. He also came on a couple of occasions. I knew that man from
17 before the war.
18 Q. What was his function?
19 A. He was also a member of the Crisis Staff. I wouldn't know more
20 about it.
21 Q. Did you see Miro Stanic with Milorad Krnojelac?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What did you see them doing?
24 A. Well, also I saw them talking; and the details, of course, I could
25 not overhear, because I was not so close.
1 Q. Mr. Zekovic, you mentioned Boro Ivanovic and you stated that he
2 was put in charge by the military command of the detainees. Can you
3 explain what you meant by that? How do you know what authority he had?
4 A. In different ways. By eavesdropping, by then analysing the
5 collected information is how we came to those conclusions, but direct
6 information as regards Boro Ivanovic, I learned about him after I was
7 returned to the camp, after my attempt to escape, in my direct
8 conversation with him. Do you want me to tell you what he said to me on
9 that occasion?
10 Q. Well, we will get to that when we discuss your attempted escape.
11 Do you know what -- did Boro Ivanovic have any authority over Milorad
12 Krnojelac? Do you know that?
13 A. I think so, yes, must have.
14 Q. And on what do you base that conclusion?
15 A. He was a member of that military Crisis Staff.
16 Q. Okay. When you discussed being able to overhear certain things
17 being discussed at the KP Dom, could you tell us where you were able to
18 overhear guards speaking or other prison staff? Were there specific
19 locations where you could overhear things?
20 A. Yes, there were, two places where we heard most of the things that
21 we heard directly. One of those places is at the beginning of the old
22 wing of the building, on the ground floor next to the main gate where we
23 waited in the morning to be called out for work. And there was a kind of
24 a coffee shop there where all the staff of the KP Dom would gather before
25 the working hours to have coffee.
1 And the second place was within the metal shop, or to be more
2 precise, in the lathe shop. There was a window there and it overlooked
3 the whole area of that metal shop, machine shop, from which, before the
4 war, the work of prisoners was supervised. And at times, we would steal
5 up to that window, gather there, and eavesdrop on the information, because
6 they gathered there, they listened to the radio or talked.
7 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you
8 shown Exhibit P6/1 and this will show the ground floor of the
9 administrative building.
10 Q. Could you show us on the exhibit where it was that -- the first
11 place where you were able to eavesdrop? You discussed gathering and you
12 discussed a place where the staff could drink coffee. Could you show us
13 where that is?
14 A. Yes. It was here, here. Our windows looked out and they were
15 about 70 -- 90 centimetres high, I mean above the ground.
16 Q. And the detainees who were being taken out to work would line up
17 outside that room, right?
18 A. Yes. We waited in front of this entrance here. There was a
19 small, low wall of 30 metres -- 30 centimetres high, and we stood by that
20 or usually we were by the door.
21 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the witness has indicated the room that is
22 directly to the right of the entrance to the KP Dom, which on the exhibit
23 is marked as an office, and the place where they gathered is more or less
24 inside the courtyard near where other witnesses have indicated there was
25 this metal gate, and also the wall is the wall which is by building --
1 detainee building number 1.
2 JUDGE HUNT: And it's on the ground floor.
3 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you.
4 Q. From that particular location where you've just pointed out to us,
5 what kind of conversations were you able to hear? Could you give us an
6 example of what things you heard discussed?
7 A. Well, they discussed everything in general, the situation then,
8 some of their errands, duties. In the morning they would comment on what
9 had happened, on what -- if there had been any excesses, who had been
10 brought in. On a couple of occasions I heard, "Squeeze should be put on
11 him. He should be forced in some way." That was in the beginning when
12 people were being -- still being taken for interrogation. So that was
13 summer 1992 or -- specifically on one occasion, I heard it perfectly
14 clearly when a driver, and I do not know which one exactly but he had some
15 trouble with his car on the way between -- from Montenegro to Serbia, he
16 had some trouble with the fuel, and then they said -- well, I cannot
17 repeat their words, I cannot tell you who it was who said that, but they
18 said, "It's those workers," that is we, the detainees in the mechanics
19 shop; we were to blame for it. We sabotaged the thing and we should be
20 punished for that. However, one of those drivers, and I'm not 100 per
21 cent sure who that was, I think it was Drakul, he said, "No, nobody is to
22 blame for it, and it's not those workers who are responsible for it. The
23 problem was with the fuel filter, because that was clogged."
24 Then once again -- I apologise, Your Honours. On another occasion
25 I overheard, and I think it was the second or the third time, that the
1 store room had been burgled and that was in the immediate vicinity of the
2 restaurant that we talked about, and I heard their comments in the morning
3 that somebody had burgled it during the night. And one of them said,
4 "Well, there was nothing to steal from there because the Muslims had
5 taken it all away." And I heard it perfectly clearly but then at that
6 time there were no Muslims in the town so there was no way that a Muslim
7 could have done that. And I heard then Mr. Mitar Rasevic say, "That's not
8 true. It was not the Muslims. When we arrived in the KP Dom all the
9 locks were all right. Only Serbs could have done it." And then the noise
10 grew and then somebody said, "Well, perhaps, yes, some Serbs."
11 I and a friend of mine, with whom I worked, he is FWS-210,
12 afterwards, we went there, and again made a new padlock, had to weld, had
13 to weld it.
14 Q. You mentioned Mr. Rasevic and you recognised his voice. Did you
15 recognise the voices of any other people participating -- not necessarily
16 in that conversation but in other conversations from that room?
17 A. Yes, very often one would hear Todovic's voice, the warden's
18 voice, and all the other guards, because we knew them all. We knew all
19 their voices. We knew them by their voices. We knew when it was Burilo
20 speaking or Obrenovic. We heard them, and they talked about lots of
22 Q. You mentioned that many of these discussions happened in the
23 morning. Were there discussions about what happened the previous night?
24 A. Yes. Yes, very often.
25 Q. And we'll get to this point in a moment, but were there
1 discussions about detainees being beaten? For instance, if they were
2 beaten at night, were there discussions in the morning about what had
4 A. Yes, now and then; not always. And I didn't always have an -- I
5 couldn't always come close, because at times there were guards within the
6 inside of the compound, so it was too risky to come close to the window,
7 you know. But yes, there were conversations about that too, yes.
8 Q. Were these formal briefings in that room or were they more like
9 social conversations where people are sitting around drinking coffee?
10 Could you tell by the nature of the conversation?
11 A. Well, I cannot really claim that it was official, because it was
12 in passing and like that, even though some discussing about how to assign
13 work and what duties, what errands. Yes, it did happen there, but I
14 cannot really affirm that that was the only place, that that coffee shop
15 was the place where they discussed and planned and held their business
17 Q. How often did you hear the warden in that room, or in fact did you
18 ever see him in that room when these discussions were taking place?
19 A. Well, you see, we could not see anyone, because windows were
20 painted white, so that we could only overhear them. And it wasn't always
21 the warden and it wasn't always Rasevic and it was always Krnojelac -- I
22 mean, Todovic. No. There were days when we wouldn't hear the warden's
23 voice, when we wouldn't hear Rasevic's voice, and so on.
24 Q. And you also mentioned the place -- the window in the workshop
25 area where you were able to overhear. Were there any specific
1 conversations that you overheard there that you recall?
2 A. The metal shop, yes. Once I heard Relja, who was the foreman of
3 the metal shop. He was absent that day. Now, his offices consisted of
4 two rooms, actually, and they met there and drank and talked about all
5 sorts of things. And on one occasion - I heard it very clearly - the
6 discussion was general, about the situation, but in no time at all they
7 moved on to talk about plunder. And I concluded from that discussion that
8 they were talking about a place called Josanica, which is downstream from
9 Foca, or rather, to the north.
10 Some were saying -- one was saying about how he knew that his
11 neighbours had all sorts of things, that we were very well off, but they
12 didn't know that our houses were so full. And another one said, "We
13 should have struck before this, but there was nothing to live on."
14 Presumably they couldn't make their ends meet. And another one, the one
15 who was -- who presumably always had information and he somehow stood out
16 as a man who was in the know, a man who was well informed, he said, "Well,
17 you know, my men, it wasn't all that easy, pick up a rifle and strike.
18 One had to carry out all the preparations properly, and the preparations
19 began when Tito died, because one had to do it in the police, in the
20 media, in the politics. One had really to assign, select people, a proper
21 cadre to create all the material reserves and then pick out the right
22 moment to strike. And immediately after that my companions, my comrades
23 who worked with me made a sign to me, and I just fled from the place.
24 Which shows clearly that it was all planned and prepared, all that was
25 then to happen.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. Mr. Zekovic, were you ever interrogated while you were at KP Dom?
2 A. Yes, twice.
3 Q. Tell us about the first time. When was it?
4 A. The first time I was interrogated, about 25 days after my
5 detention in the camp, and it was rather short. Inspector Koprivica was
6 the one who interrogated me. He wanted me to describe to him in detail
7 where I had been when the war started, whom I was seeing then, and about
8 my movements at that time. And I told him all that. Of course, he knew
9 all that. And he typed on a typewriter, this short record, which I
11 Q. Which part in the KP Dom did this interrogation take place?
12 A. Most people, including myself, were taken for interrogations to
13 the second floor of the new wing of the building.
14 Q. When you say the second floor, is that the floor that's the next
15 one from the ground floor or is it the ground floor, first --
16 A. Yes, the first one above the ground floor, so I would say that
17 it's a two-storeyed building.
18 Q. When your interrogation was completed, what happened to you? Were
19 you taken someplace?
20 A. Yes. I was taken to the end of the hall where there is a
21 staircase that leads to the ground floor. That's where Koprivica left
22 me. He told me to wait, and he entered the first office where they were
23 interrogating some people.
24 Q. Did you hear anybody inside that room where somebody else was
25 being interrogated? Did you hear what was being said?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. What?
3 A. At the moment when inspector Vladicic walked out, as he opened the
4 door, he turned his face again towards the inside of that room and he
5 said, "Just hit him, do whatever, and he's going to admit whatever we ask
6 him to." And then he turned around and saw me. He called out to a guard
7 from the office and told him to take me to where I had been before that,
8 and that guard took me to an isolation cell on the ground floor and locked
9 me up in there.
10 Q. Was there anybody else in that isolation cell?
11 A. Yes. In that isolation cell I found three men, in terrible shape:
12 beaten up. Two of them were lying on the floor and the third one was
13 sitting with his back against the wall.
14 Q. Are you able to tell us their names?
15 A. One was Aziz Sahinovic. He worked at the Privredna Banka in
16 Foca. And the other one was Rizvanovic. I don't know his first name, but
17 his nickname was Ace. And this Aziz Sahinovic asked me to help him so
18 that he could lean against the wall. He was in such terrible shape that
19 he couldn't move by himself. Rizvanovic, nicknamed Ace, said to me quite
20 literally, that's what I'm going to tell you, "Zeka, we are done in for
21 tonight. Vukovic and Obrenovic are on duty and we are in deep trouble."
22 That meant that there would be beatings again. And we could hear that
23 almost every night in our rooms.
24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, just for cross-reference, Aziz Sahinovic
25 is mentioned in the indictment at paragraph 5.29. He's identified by the
1 initials AS.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 MS. KUO:
4 Q. Did they tell you what had just happened to them, how they ended
5 up in such bad shape in that isolation cell?
6 A. They were beaten up, mistreated by the guards. They were there a
7 few days before I was. We could not know exactly who was detained there
8 and who was there for how long, but they were in terrible shape, I have to
9 say that.
10 Q. Did you know how long they had been in that room by the time you
12 A. They were a day before that for sure, but for how long even before
13 that, that I don't know. Well, perhaps even a few days. They talked.
14 Because not the same guards were there every night. And since they said
15 that Vukovic and Obrenovic would be on duty that night, since they knew
16 that, that could have well meant that they had been there for over two
18 Q. Do you know the first names of Vukovic and Obrenovic, the two
19 guards that they mentioned?
20 A. Obren Obrenovic, nicknamed Rambo. I don't know Vukovic's first
21 name. I just know that he's from Cohodar Mahala and that he's tall and
22 fair. I can't remember his name now, but on a list, I'd probably
23 recognise his name.
24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Obrenovic is listed on Exhibit P3 at
25 number 46.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
2 MS. KUO: Just so the court knows, the first name of the person
3 listed at 46 is Dragomir Obrenovic, but we think that's the right person.
4 Obren is his nickname.
5 Q. How long were you in that isolation cell with those three men?
6 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't have a watch so I can't say.
7 About an hour, an hour and a half, something like that, up to two hours.
8 Not more than that.
9 Q. What happened at that time?
10 A. Then, again, the same guard who brought me there came. I don't
11 know his name. He's one of the guards. And he took me upstairs to the
12 first office where they were carrying out interrogations and he took me
13 in. Inside, I found a young man from Cohodar Mahala, I can't remember his
14 name exactly now, and they were finishing their interview with him. They
15 said to him, "Well, see, you could have signed all of this, even without
16 being beaten. It would have been better for you." Something like that.
17 Koprivica said to this guard, "Why did you bring him? He's finished."
18 Q. Who was he referring to as "him"?
19 A. Me. He said to this guard, "Why did you bring him? He has
20 finished." And then he said, "Take him back to where he was." And then
21 we went out of the office again. We went downstairs. He went towards the
22 entrance office, a few steps away, to get the keys so that he could return
23 me to the isolation cell, and at that moment, Inspector Vladicic came up
24 and said, "No, you fool, not there. Take him back to the room." So,
25 luckily, that time, I was not beaten.
1 Q. You mentioned that there was a second time you were interrogated.
2 When was that?
3 A. That was after my attempted escape.
4 Q. We'll get to that when we discuss that topic. Did you hear yet
5 other people while they were being interrogated?
6 A. Yes. I worked in this administration building a few times in the
7 new wing. I did some work on the locks. And I heard them shouting from
8 one office. They were beating him. They were asking him to confess, to
9 confess that he had made war reserves of water, because in his basement,
10 they found a large barrel where he kept sauerkraut during the winter. In
11 the spring, he put water into the barrel so that he could clean it, so
12 that he could wash it, whereas they claimed that he was trying to stock up
13 on water. And he said, "Why would I need stocks of water when I had water
14 all round my house?" However, they were yelling at him and I heard them
15 beating him and saying, "We know everything. You don't have to tell us
16 anything. You don't have to lie. You don't have to justify yourself."
17 Q. Do you know the name of that person who was being interrogated?
18 A. I don't.
19 Q. Do you know where he was from?
20 A. From the outskirts of Foca, from Kamen up there. That's a village
21 near Foca actually.
22 Q. Was that person also detained in KP Dom at that time?
23 A. Yes, yes. I didn't remember his name. He was with me in Room 18
24 when I was brought there. Later, when the workroom was set up, we were
25 separated from the rest.
1 Q. Do you know what eventually happened to that man?
2 A. Don't know.
3 Q. Did Salko Mandzo ever tell you what happened to him?
4 A. Yes, yes. When we met, when this workroom was set up, he told me
5 what had happened to him. Before that, I saw when that had happened but I
6 didn't know the details. However, when the workroom was set up, he told
7 me that he had been interrogated, that they had tied his chairs back on
8 the chair like this, that they beat him, that they mistreated him, and
9 that at that moment, one of these men who were interrogating him, he
10 didn't know what to say, whether they were policemen or whatever, that he
11 put a knife by his eye and said that he would gouge his eyes out, and at
12 that moment, the warden walked in and Savo Todovic, and then they said,
13 "No, it's not that Mandzo. We need to interrogate a different Mandzo."
14 Then they let him go. From the window of my room, I saw him walk into the
15 yard. He was all faint. He could hardly walk. He was staggering, but
16 they told him to go, but in that condition, he passed by the stairs and he
17 started going towards that other area of the yard, and then the guards
18 returned him from there too, and then he went to the gate again. And then
19 at the gate, they said to him, "Why have you come again? Haven't you got
20 enough by now? Go back to your room." He was all covered with blood, his
21 face and his shirt. He wore a shirt.
22 Q. Were you actually able yourself to see Salko Mandzo walk back and
23 forth in the yard all bloodied?
24 A. I personally saw him. I personally saw him.
25 Q. Did you see any scar near his eye at a later date?
1 A. I could not see the scar; I could only see that his face and shirt
2 were bloodied. But I saw the scar later, later in our room.
3 Q. And you said that Salko Mandzo told you that the warden and
4 Todovic both came in. Did he say which of the two made the comment that
5 it was the wrong Mandzo?
6 A. No. No, he didn't say exactly. When they entered the room, they
7 said that it was the wrong Mandzo, that they were supposed to interrogate
8 another one.
9 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Salko Mandzo is listed in Schedule B at
10 number 36, and this incident is listed in the indictment at paragraph
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
13 MS. KUO:
14 Q. Mr. Zekovic, do you know what happened to Balic, Dzemo?
15 A. When I was brought to the camp on the 20th of May, he was locked
16 up in an isolation cell. Much later he was released. He was taken back
17 to my room. He said that he was interrogated several times, that he was
18 beaten, that he was mistreated. He could hardly move this hand. They
19 forced him -- they were forcing him to sign some kind of statement that he
20 had established some kind of units, something like that.
21 Q. Did he tell you how long he was in the solitary cell?
22 A. I think that he was in the solitary cell for over three weeks. I
23 don't know exactly. I can't remember. But he was there for a long time,
24 he was.
25 Q. Mr. Zekovic, I'd like to ask you now about beatings that occurred
1 in the evenings. Could you tell us whether there were beatings in the
2 evenings and how they occurred?
3 A. Very often, practically from the very beginning, almost every
4 evening; this would happen four or five, six evenings in a row, and then
5 there would be an interruption for a day or two, so there were these
6 irregular intervals. It was almost every evening. Sometimes it would
7 last for an hour, sometimes it would last even longer. In passing -- I
8 mean, this was all happening by the entrance, and sometimes it could
9 happen in other places as well, but we could not locate those premises
10 precisely. Usually it was people who were kept in this isolation cell
11 were taken out for beatings, and often people were taken out of isolation
12 cells that were within the prison compound. And often people's names were
13 called out from rooms, and we could all hear and see that quite clearly,
14 when they would come and call out people's name, and then soon after that
15 you could hear horrible screams and moans and cries of these people.
16 Later, when I started going out to the metal workshop to work, I
17 could see the walls of this hallway, this entrance hallway, all bloodied.
18 There were lots of bloodstains. And that's the way it was until the Red
19 Cross came for the first time, when these walls were painted. Two inmates
20 painted those walls.
21 Q. Where was the entrance hallway located that you saw covered with
23 A. The entrance to the KP Dom. And then that's where people would
24 pass, where prisoners would be searched, and that's where you entered the
25 prison compound.
1 MS. KUO: To be absolutely sure, I'd like to have the usher show
2 the witness Exhibit P6/1.
3 Q. Could you show us on this diagram where the walls were that you
4 saw the bloodstains?
5 A. Here. The entrance into the KP Dom is here. This is where the
6 entrance office is. This is where the gate to enter the KP Dom compound
7 is. It's these walls, these walls, and these.
8 Q. Could you slow down when you say "these walls"? Show us one wall,
9 and then pause briefly and then show us another one.
10 A. All right. I'm sorry. It's this wall here, opposite the door;
11 this wall by the door; and the wall on the side facing the interior part
12 of the camp. Here, in the corner, there was a metal wardrobe for clothes,
13 and there were bloodstains on that too.
14 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness has indicated a
15 wall to the left as you walk into the entrance to the KP Dom, the wall
16 directly in front and also the wall to the right. When he described the
17 metal wardrobe, he was indicating the corner to the left and front, so
18 that if you're coming through the metal gate in the inside of the
19 courtyard, it is directly in front of you. Thank you.
20 Q. Were you able to see where people -- well, first of all, you said
21 they would come and call out names from the rooms. Who are you referring
22 to as "they"? Who would come?
23 A. The guards. That was always in the evening. Those who were on
24 duty that evening, their shift would start at 7.00 and it would always
25 happen after that.
1 Q. Do you know how the people were chosen to be taken out?
2 A. It would be hard for me to give you an accurate answer, precise
3 answer. Some people were taken out several times; others were taken out
4 that way and they were never returned to the room, never.
5 Q. Were you able personally to see where people were taken to?
6 A. What do you mean, could I personally see where they were taken
7 to? When they would take them out of the room, they would open this metal
8 door, and that same second you could hear screams and moans, and sometimes
9 it would go on for an hour, sometimes even longer than that.
10 Q. So this is the same metal door that you described as where you
11 would have to wait when you were being taken out to work; is that right?
12 A. Yes. That's that metal door. I'll never forget that sound until
13 the earth covers my eyes in my grave. Because we would hear that sound
14 and we would be startled, because we knew that nothing good would come out
15 of it.
16 Q. What other sounds were you able to hear? Were you able to hear
17 people's voices?
18 A. We heard those people screaming, crying, begging, saying that
19 they're not guilty of anything, that they don't know anything. Once I
20 heard, quite clearly, they asked a man -- I mean, I didn't hear the man
21 being asked where his sons were, but I just heard the man say, "I don't
22 know where my children are. I don't know where my children are," and they
23 beat him mercilessly.
24 Q. Did you recognise any of the people involved in the beatings? Do
25 you know if they were military, for instance, or if they were guards?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Guards came to the rooms and they took men out. And now, at the
2 gate, whether there was someone else there, someone who came from the
3 outside, that we couldn't see and that we couldn't know. However, it
4 would happen that soldiers came there too, and members of this so-called
5 military police.
6 Q. When you say soldiers came there, did you actually see soldiers at
7 that metal gate?
8 A. Yes, I did see soldiers during the day and in the evening.
9 Q. But when people were taken out to be beaten, you also saw
11 A. Could not see then. Then I could only see and hear the guards
12 coming and taking people out. Who was down there, that we could not see.
13 By this entrance door, I can show it to you in the picture, there was a
14 window, but thin wooden boards were put there instead of glass so you
15 couldn't see through.
16 Q. How do you know that what you called the so-called military police
17 were involved?
18 A. I know. One evening I heard with perfect clarity their commander,
19 that's what he called himself, Coso, they took five or six men from the
20 rooms, they beat them down there, and at one moment, I heard Coso's voice
21 clearly when he said, Nurko, do you know what happened to my Bota?" And he
22 said, "How should I know?" They were beating those men for a very long
23 time. And then I heard his voice, I heard him say, "Well, you can stop
24 now." That lasted for a long time. We knew by the sound of the car that
25 would come in front of the KP Dom, which car it was. They came in a
1 yellow Volkswagen which had a characteristic sound.
2 Q. When you said, "I heard him say, 'Well, you can stop now,'" whose
3 voice did you hear say that?
4 A. Coso's. That's this commander of this military police, Cosovic,
6 Q. How were you able to recognise his voice? Did you know him from
8 A. Yes, I knew him from before, for a long time.
9 Q. In what capacity did you know him?
10 A. I knew him by sight. We would see each other in town and also on
11 rafts on the Tara. We were not friends but I knew him perfectly well.
12 Also, it would happen that we would be in the same cafes.
13 Q. Did you know other members of the military police?
14 A. I knew most of them by sight. Most of them I knew by sight. But
15 I wasn't friends with them before the war. And almost all the members of
16 that so-called military police were known from before to prosecution
17 authorities in Yugoslavia and abroad.
18 Q. You mentioned a comment that you said Coso's made about Bota. Who
19 was Bota, do you know?
20 A. Well, that's a member of his so-called military police. That day,
21 they set off on a mission in the area of Tjentiste and somewhere ran into
22 a mine with a vehicle and that Bota was wounded in the spine, and then
23 they came down to the KP Dom to take revenge.
24 Q. How did you learn that, what happened to Bota at Tjentiste?
25 A. I heard him ask then, "Do you know what happened to my Bota?" So
1 I realised that something had happened to him but, and later on I heard
2 that he had been wounded. Because later on, when I was in the metal shop
3 working, some members of that so-called military police would come, and
4 one of them was Coso, and another one called Djura and some others, and
5 from their conversations, we just learned what had happened. You should
6 know that we had a specific manner of collection of information, and that
7 is you just strain your ears to eavesdrop as much as you can, to overhear
8 as much as you can, whenever you pass by other people, whenever
9 communicating with people around us, and from those odds and ends of
10 information, we tried to put that together and thus came by rather
11 reliable information. About this particular incident, I know specifically
12 because I heard about it from those.
13 Q. Those military police? Is that what you meant?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You mentioned a yellow Volkswagen. When did you hear the sound of
16 that car? Before or after the beating?
17 A. Before and after. First, when they would arrive to the camp, and
18 then after, afterwards, when they left.
19 Q. In relation to the beating of -- that you described, where Coso
20 made the comment about Bota, after the beating, did you hear anything
21 else? You talked about the car but did you hear any gunshots?
22 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes, we heard gunshots, I and many other people in
23 the camp, in rooms. Though many people -- those were horrible moments and
24 some people fled to upper bedrooms and would cover their heads with
25 blankets not to hear those screams, those painful cries of those poor
1 things. And I, yes, I heard shots, shots from a revolver.
2 Q. You described other people covering their ears. Did you do that
3 or did you listen?
4 A. I didn't cover my ears. I had -- I don't know how to put that but
5 I -- somehow, I had the courage. I wanted -- I wanted to hear as much as
6 possible, to learn, see as much as possible, so that if I survived, I
7 could tell others what had happened.
8 Q. You described gunshots. Could you tell us how many you heard?
9 A. I cannot say exactly whether five or seven, but because, of
10 course, there is an echo there but not less than five, maybe six.
11 Q. What happened --
12 A. I apologise, I'm not being precise. Five, six or seven. But it
13 did happen, except that I cannot really affirm if it was six or seven or
14 five. I suppose if you collect more information, you will find out how
15 many people were killed then.
16 Q. While this was happening, do you know if anybody was in the
17 warden's office?
18 A. Lights were on. Yes, there were lights on, and we could hear
19 people come in, go out, even though it was in a different wing of the
21 Q. What did you hear after the gunshots?
22 A. After those gunshots, we heard a car engine being switched on in
23 front of the KP Dom, in front of the camp, and by the sound, we identified
24 that car, we knew that it was from the metal shop, that is a Zastava car,
25 that is something like a pickup vehicle. People who were in Room 13, I
1 spoke with them later on, it was that gentleman whom we mentioned FWS-210
2 and another one who worked with me in the metal shop, and he -- I think he
3 must have been killed because I don't know where he is. Nobody knows
4 where he is. Uzeir Hadzalic, they told me how they could see the stairs,
5 the staircase, how those bodies wrapped in blankets were taken down and
7 Q. Could you tell by listening where the Zastava car went?
8 A. The distance was very -- the distance covered was very short, 100,
9 150 metres perhaps, and then the engine was switched off. That is what I
10 could hear, I couldn't hear anything else.
11 Q. The following morning, did you actually see that Zastava car, that
12 pickup truck?
13 A. Yes. The next morning I saw that car in the metal shop area. The
14 next morning, we were not taken to work outside so that only this friend
15 of mine whom I just mentioned, number 210 and I were the only ones who
16 went into the metal shop area, into its yard, to pick up some letters that
17 we had made for Room 13, and the boring machine and the welding device and
18 other tools that we needed, and in the metal shop yard, we found that
19 car. It had been just washed. I mean five or ten minutes before that.
20 So that water was still dripping. And in the grooves where the rear part
21 of the car, the freight part of the car, one could clearly see traces of
23 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Prosecution Exhibit
25 Q. Could you point out to us where this metal shop was and where you
1 saw the car, approximately?
2 A. This is the metal shop yard and the car was here in front of the
4 Q. Was the car usually kept there?
5 A. Yes. Well, not in a strictly defined area.
6 Q. And the entrance to the metal shop area, could you show us if
7 there was a gate?
8 A. Yes, there was a metal gate, a wide gate for large trucks and a
9 small one for the staff, and it is this one here.
10 Q. Was that gate which you're indicating as being to the left of the
11 entrance into the KP Dom compound, was that gate normally locked?
12 A. That gate was always closed and locked, and one entered into the
13 metal shop on the left-hand side, left of the entrance into the KP Dom.
14 MS. KUO: Thank you.
15 And just for the record, Your Honours, the place where the witness
16 was showing the car's location was inside what we could call the courtyard
17 of the metal -- of the workshop area, and that would be to the left of the
18 gate, which is to the left of the entrance into the KP Dom.
19 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "to the left," you mean from the
21 MS. KUO: I mean as we are looking at Exhibit P6.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, on the exhibit. Right. Thank you.
23 MS. KUO:
24 Q. Who did the car belong to? Was it a KP Dom vehicle?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What was it used for?
2 A. Well, to carry certain things, for deliveries, for smaller-size
3 production materials, or for the KP Dom as a whole, for the metal shop,
4 the production materials for the metal shop.
5 Q. Was there a specific driver of that car?
6 A. No, not a special one.
7 Q. Was it always KP Dom staff who drove the car?
8 A. Yes, always. Somebody -- yes, somebody from the KP Dom, sometimes
9 a driver and at times a guard.
10 Q. And you mentioned that you recognised that car by the sound. What
11 was specific about the sound?
12 A. Yes, it's true. The exhaust pipe was faulted, and we knew already
13 about that from before, so it had a very characteristic sound when it
14 worked. It was very loud.
15 Q. And in relation to the yellow Volkswagen that you described, were
16 those sounds different?
17 A. Of course. But of course.
18 Q. To whom did the yellow Volkswagen belong?
19 A. The military police, but they had very many vehicles, because they
20 simply picked them up around the town, any number they needed.
21 Q. Did you repair those cars, and that's how you're familiar with
23 A. Well, for instance, not this yellow Volkswagen, but vehicles which
24 were in the KP Dom compound, yes, we did. And once we had to repair the
25 car for the commander of the so-called military police. He found the car
1 somewhere, that is, simply robbed somebody of his jeep, and the car was in
2 the car shop. But we from this metal shop had to make the roof; that is,
3 we made tubes, iron tubes, and we had to mount them so as to cover, to
4 cover the roof for the canvas. And Cosa came to the -- downstairs to
5 the -- down to the KP Dom on various occasions.
6 Q. Do you know what access the military police or, indeed, other
7 members of the military had to the KP Dom at this time?
8 A. I suppose free, free, free access. I mean, I don't know. Once, a
9 neighbour of mine, Dragan Zelja, he came in the evening - it was already
10 past 8.00 - brought me a package of cigarettes, which means that he could
11 enter freely. And likewise, those others who came to the metal shop,
12 whenever they needed it.
13 Q. Your neighbour, Dragan Zelja, what is his last name? What is his
14 family name?
15 A. Zelenovic.
16 Q. What function did he have in the military?
17 A. How could I know that? He did not tell me. He did not tell me
18 whether he had a rank or an office or something. I know he was a member.
19 Q. Was he a member of the military police?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know if he was present when Nurko Nisic was being beaten?
22 Did you --
23 A. I suppose and I think so, yes.
24 Q. Why do you suppose so?
25 A. Because he was a part of this narrow circle, Cosa's circle, and
1 I'm -- yes, I'm quite confident that he was there, and he was also great
2 friends with that Bota.
3 Q. Did you hear Zelja's voice that night when Nurko Nisic was being
5 A. Well, I cannot say 100 per cent, but I think I did, yes. He
6 speaks very fast. That is his characteristic. Although it was difficult
7 to tell one from the other precisely, but I think he was; I think so.
8 Q. On the night that you described when you heard the gunshots, could
9 you tell us who was taken out, who was beaten?
10 A. Nurko Nisic, Mustafa Kuloglija, I think, and I can't remember the
11 names now.
12 MS. KUO: Nurko Nisic, Your Honours, is C-19, and Mustafa
13 Kuloglija is C-15.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
15 MS. KUO:
16 Q. Did you ever see either of those two men again?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Witness, I'd like to move on now and ask you about some exchanges,
19 or people being taken out for so-called exchanges. Can you tell us when
20 those things happened?
21 A. People were taken out for exchange on various occasions in the
22 summer of 1992, in August and September. There were exchanges about which
23 we knew had been carried through, that is, that people had been set free,
24 but many of these exchanges never went through. I saw with my own eyes
25 several times from the metal shop compound groups of people being taken
1 out with their hands tied at their backs and beaten from all sides, and
2 there were both military and KP Dom -- or rather, camp personnel. They
3 drove those people away and they were never seen alive again.
4 Q. How were you able to see over the gate of the metal workshop?
5 A. Well, naturally, from the ground. If you were close to the gate,
6 you could not see it, but if you moved further away from the gate, because
7 the yard of the metal shop, there is some elevation, there is a slope, so
8 you could see then. But in the metal shop area, at that time, we always
9 had a metal kiosk made of metal tubing, some two and a half to three and a
10 half or four metres. I'm not quite sure how large it was. And as we were
11 to work at a height, we had a kind of a scaffolding and we would climb
12 that. So I would climb that and I could see clearly what went on in front
13 of the KP Dom.
14 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
15 witness shown Exhibit P6 again and ask you to show us the area that you're
16 referring to.
17 A. Yes. I have said this is the metal shop gate, this is the
18 entrance into the camp building, here, in front, in the front part of the
19 metal shop, that is, the locksmith shop, in the area, in the yard. So in
20 front, outside, in the open air, was this kiosk which was being built all
21 the time.
22 Q. Could you show us where you saw the detainees being led out?
23 A. Here. Here, at the gate, the main entrance, in front. And the
24 car was turned -- well, a couple of times it was a kind of a van, and once
25 it was an army vehicle, a freight vehicle. And I saw this from here, over
1 the fence. It was about 25, 30 metres away, perhaps a metre or so more,
2 but one could see it clearly.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you see, as the detainees were led out, if the
4 people beating them used any weapons?
5 A. Yes, yes. They had those standard police truncheons and the
6 pieces of very thick cable. I mean electric cable, very thick one. And
7 many also had automatic rifles and carried them, and they beat with those
8 parts, with butts.
9 Q. How many times did you see this type of incident?
10 A. I saw it three times.
11 Q. Are you able to recognise some of the detainees who were taken out
12 in this way?
13 A. In a group, in one of the groups, I recognised, although there
14 were quite a number of guards around them and those troops, but I
15 recognised Ramo Dzendusic, Mersud Pasovic and Kemo Isanovic.
16 Q. Did you ever see any of those three men again?
17 A. No, never.
18 Q. Did you ever hear any discussions among the guards or soldiers
19 about exchanges? Or did you actually ever have any conversations with
21 A. We received some information from some guards too, and sometimes
22 information from people we could meet around the KP Dom, around the camp,
23 and outside -- outside the KP Dom compound when we went to work, out in
24 the field, to put it that way.
25 Q. Did anybody ever tell you what happened to the people who were
1 taken out? Were they exchanged?
2 A. Once, in the yard of the compound, I came across a soldier who
3 used to work at the same place where I did before the war, and we knew
4 each other well, and he told me, "Well, a couple of days ago, I
5 escorted -- I was an escort and your uncle was exchanged at Rogoj." So
6 those men were set free. But about a number of those exchanges, that is
7 people who had been taken away, but -- well, and we never heard from them
8 so it was sort of -- well, it's logical then that they must have been
9 killed, but nobody said that. But somehow we did not know and we do not
10 know. But there were guards, there were guards who told us, who told me,
11 and this person who is indicated here, 210, "If they call you for
12 exchange, to refuse it, to say, 'We don't want to go. We don't want to be
13 exchanged. We don't want to -- we don't want to be sent to fight.'" So
14 they must have been abreast of what was going on. And I and this friend
15 of mine, who is mentioned here, we once wrote a kind of an application, a
16 kind of request that we handed to Savo Todovic, asking not to be
18 And there was yet another thing which was very characteristic. In
19 the summer of 1992, the end of the summer, late summer, a group of workers
20 was taken away, that is of skilled workers, those who worked with us in
21 the metal shop, were taken away, Suad Islambasic, Abdulah Kameric, Uzeir
22 Hadzalic, who else? Can't now, the names escape me now. But they were
23 taken for an exchange, and when Relja returned the next day -- he was
24 absent at that time. The next day, he walked around, he seemed to be out
25 of his mind, he was walking up and down the yard, "They've taken away
1 skilled workers, good workers. Who will work from now? They are asking
2 me to finish the work, to complete this and complete that, and they took
3 my best workers away." And after that, a list was compiled, even though,
4 of course, it was clear who had stayed behind. Savo Todovic made a list
5 of us who worked, and nobody else was taken for exchange.
6 Q. Did Relja ever tell you who made these lists for exchange?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did he tell you who made work lists?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who?
11 A. Those lists were made by the warden and by Savo. Because once
12 I -- I asked. He said, "Well, Zuti, Lija, are going to the hospital,"
13 and yet another one from Jelec, I can't remember his name. And I said,
14 "Relja, why don't I go?" Because I knew quite a lot of people down there
15 because my wife used to work in the hospital. And he said, "I can't do
16 anything about it, Zeka. What the warden and Savo write down, those they
17 assign have to go. I can't do anything about that." And then I said,
18 "Well, I'm -- I know those things better. Zuti and his brother are not
19 really particularly qualified to do that. I know better how to do the
20 job." But it was of no avail.
21 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 4.00.
22 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 9.30 in the morning.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
24 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 22nd day
25 of February, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
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13 and English transcripts.