Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3369

1 Wednesday, 21 February 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: What is AID, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: AID is part of the police forces in Bosnia.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And it assisted the Tribunal in such way that

13 the Tribunal staff, of course, did not know where all the localities were

14 where the witnesses were living, so we always informed the AID which

15 witness we wanted to interview and then this witness was brought in and

16 was interviewed and brought back, and police officers from this office did

17 this transport and informed the witnesses that they wanted to be

18 interviewed.

19 JUDGE HUNT: And kept some note of their address --

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: -- in case they had to be contacted.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Especially the witnesses in Sarajevo, when

23 they were in Sarajevo, either lived in refugee places or switched living

24 quarters quite often because they didn't have homes - they came from

25 Foca - and therefore we never knew where they were living.

Page 3370

1 JUDGE HUNT: Just as a matter of interest, what does AID, the

2 acronym, stand for?

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I'm not absolutely sure, but what I know is

4 that it is an English abbreviation. It's Agency for Information -- but

5 there's something in between. But we will have a witness who can explain

6 that to the Court.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

8 Mr. Bakrac.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. If I may

10 say, I also tried to find out something about it. My learned friend is

11 right; it is a part of the police force, but as far as I know, that is the

12 state security, a kind of a secret service. But that is the information

13 that I received about AID, if this is any help.

14 JUDGE HUNT: It does not sound very sinister, if I may say so.

15 Anyway, you proceed with your cross-examination. Thanks.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 WITNESS: FWS-73 [Resumed]

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]

20 Q. Good morning, sir.

21 A. Good morning.

22 Q. Are you ready? Can you answer some more questions in

23 cross-examination?

24 A. I can, yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you showed us where your room was at the

Page 3371

1 time of the incident with Mr. Zekovic. I shall now move on to specific

2 incidents which you described, or rather that you testified during your

3 examination-in-chief. In direct examination you said that after beatings

4 and screams, you heard shots, and after that a splash of water; is that

5 correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. Sir, in your statement which you gave to the OTP in 1995, you said

8 the following -- I apologise. It is the first statement, 1995, page 6,

9 the first passage:

10 "Those who were called out did not return, as a rule. I think

11 they were killed. My assumption is corroborated by the fact that the

12 prisoners of the upper floor could hear sounds of something splashing,

13 falling into the water, at night."

14 So my question is: Which of the two statements is correct? Did

15 you hear those splashes or is it that these sounds could be heard by

16 prisoners on upper floors?

17 A. I listened to what you said. In one sentence you say one thing

18 and in the second sentence you say a different thing. But these two

19 things are related, which means - and I want to say on this occasion - the

20 building that we were in was elevated above the offices so that tortures

21 and rapes could be heard more clearly in the upper part of the building

22 and worse in the lower part of the building, but they could be heard in

23 both of them, and at that time you could hear a needle fall in the

24 compound because those tortures lay in store for every inmate. After

25 this --

Page 3372

1 JUDGE HUNT: Stop, sir, just stop. Let us start today by trying

2 to answer the question. The question was related to hearing splashing in

3 the water. You haven't even got near to that now. The question is: Did

4 you hear the splashing in the water or are you relying solely upon what

5 you were told by the people upstairs? Now, that's the question you were

6 asked and we would like an answer.

7 A. Tortures and splashes, we both heard them.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Why did you tell the OTP, then, that it was heard by prisoners on

10 the upper floors and not you yourself?

11 A. I say before the court again that the splash had so many decibels,

12 then those above could hear those splashes against the water much louder

13 than we did. That is my explanation.

14 Q. Sir, in your -- during the direct examination, you said, "We heard

15 splashes against the water. You can invite an expert, an expert witness,

16 to check that." Nobody challenged that. Why did you say that? Nobody

17 disputed that when you raised that matter.

18 A. I am responsible for the answers that I give, and I always say, if

19 somebody does not believe any of those things that I said, can go to the

20 scene, which is now accessible, and check it on the spot.

21 Q. But why did you, about this specific thing, suggest that it be

22 checked even though nobody had challenged before that? Did you follow the

23 trial before you came here?

24 A. No, I did not follow any of the trials.

25 Q. Did you talk before your testimony with somebody about this case?

Page 3373

1 A. Before the testimony, I discussed -- I did discuss this trial but

2 what I said, I stand by it, and that is why I say all the words that I

3 utter before this Honourable Court, please check them.

4 Q. And who did you talk with about it?

5 A. I don't know. I might make confessions to you and tell you who

6 are all the people that I talked to.

7 Q. Do I understand you, you refuse to tell us who you discussed it

8 with?

9 A. I said at the beginning of the trial that to my mind, the lawyer

10 is asking me questions which are very provocative and expects me to answer

11 them.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are being asked who you spoke to about it.

13 It's a perfectly permissible question. If you don't want to tell us, you

14 say so and then we will worry about the consequences if that is the case.

15 But it's not for you to determine what is relevant and what is not

16 relevant. Now, are you prepared to identify who you spoke to about this

17 before the trial -- before you gave evidence?

18 A. Mr. President, I am not familiar with legal laws and therefore I

19 cannot answer that.

20 JUDGE HUNT: The question was very simple. Are you prepared to

21 tell us who you spoke to?

22 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour maybe the witness spoke with

24 other protected witnesses and maybe it's easier for him to write down the

25 names, if it is so. I don't know. It may be. It may be that this is a

Page 3374

1 problem, but I don't know.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, if you have some worry about the identity

3 of the person you spoke to becoming public, you may write it down but we

4 will not look at it unless the Defence counsel is also allowed to look at

5 it. Now, are you prepared to identify who you spoke to?

6 A. I can write down the names of people I talked to with these

7 conversations that I had. I don't know what they mean to the Defence.

8 JUDGE HUNT: As I say, that's not a matter for you. If you will

9 write them down now and then they will be shown to counsel.

10 A. [witness writes]

11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, you could check that for any protected

12 witnesses, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are not protected witnesses.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry. These are not protected witnesses.

16 These are witnesses but they will come here and testify openly.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

18 Mr. Bakrac, my intention at the moment is to simply mark that as

19 an exhibit under seal. Whilst the witnesses are not protected, this

20 witness may feel some diffidence about them knowing that he has revealed

21 that fact, so that we will be able to refer to them. If you need to refer

22 to them, you may do so by reference to the document but -- and the

23 document will be under seal. Have you any objection to that procedure?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. That's quite

25 acceptable.

Page 3375

1 JUDGE HUNT: That document will be Exhibit P433 and it is under

2 seal.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, may I

4 proceed?

5 Q. Apart from the individuals whose name you have written down, sir,

6 did you talk with somebody else before you came to give your testimony?

7 A. From the place that I -- in the place that I come from, I didn't

8 discuss this with anyone there.

9 Q. And outside the place that you've come from?

10 A. Outside the place that I've come from, I've already written the

11 names of people that I talked with.

12 Q. And nobody else?

13 A. I cannot remember that there was anybody else.

14 Q. Thank you. Sir, I asked you, and I am asking you again now, when

15 we've -- when we read what you had said in your first statement and what

16 you had said in the direct examination, did you hear shots and splashes

17 against the water?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. Why didn't you mention the shots before?

20 A. I'll tell the Defence. After this ill-famed camp, my head reels,

21 and it would take a month of complete rest to describe every detail before

22 this court. Because things that went on were such that one thinks, well,

23 if I say I heard a -- this, am I to now explain how many decibels was the

24 sound of a pistol, how many decibels were screams? But what I am saying

25 is that I heard it, and both the upper and the lower floors heard it,

Page 3376

1 those on the upper floor with more decibels and those on the lower floors

2 with less decibels. That is my statement, if you get my meaning, and this

3 is the third time I repeat this.

4 Q. Yes, sir. Because just now you told us that there were so many

5 crimes committed there, I will read to you something that you told the

6 OTP: "I never witnessed a crime because I was locked up in my cell."

7 A. That is true - you, Defence - that during that 12 days that I was

8 in the cell, I did not hear it, because I was so badly beaten that I

9 couldn't hear the movements of my body. That is correct about those 12

10 days. But two years and six months, where are they?

11 Q. You never mentioned any 12 days.

12 A. I kept mentioning 12 days after the beating. That was in the

13 camp, when the person concerned fled the camp.

14 Q. You spoke in general. That is not the part where you referred to

15 Zekovic. You simply say that you did not eyewitness the crimes.

16 A. I don't understand you. You are saying one thing about those 12

17 days; now you are saying something else which has nothing to do with those

18 12 days. And I repeat again: I spent two years and six months in the

19 camp, and 12 days I spent in a cell, and there I could not even hear the

20 movements of my body, let alone something else, during those 12 days.

21 Q. And you were locked all 12 days and you could not move about?

22 A. I spent all those 12 days in the isolation cell. I couldn't make

23 a single move. Now, for the first time that day, when he was found that

24 day, I was forced out into the yard to see the man who had been captured,

25 and you've got to go out when you're ordered, even if all the bones in

Page 3377

1 your body are broken. There's no --

2 Q. You said, "because I was locked in my cell." You never mentioned

3 the isolation cell or 12 days. It is in that part where you spoke about

4 what had been going on in the KP Dom in general.

5 A. I repeat: My cell, that cell of mine. I would have stayed in

6 that cell of mine to this day, when you say "my cell."

7 Q. What does it mean, "stay to this day"? Are you trying to be

8 ironic? I never thought to say that the cell was your property.

9 A. Will you please ask me the question that you want an answer to in

10 two or three words, not a sentence? One is like this, and then after that

11 comes another sentence with a different meaning.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. I've heard enough about this. Did you ever

13 mention a court martial?

14 A. All of us who were in the camp knew that there was a court martial

15 outside in Foca, and it was in operation at that time in Foca.

16 Q. How did you learn about that?

17 A. Everything that went on in the compound and outside the compound,

18 we knew about it all.

19 Q. How could you know about this court martial?

20 A. After the murder of Isanovic, Selimovic, and the surname of the

21 third person whom I don't know, who I guess was not born in the town, Serb

22 guards, that is, one of the Serb guards, told us the court

23 martial -- those three individuals were court martialled, that they are

24 three persons whom the extremist part of the SDS had condemned without any

25 defence or anything, and they allegedly sentenced those three persons to

Page 3378

1 be immediately taken before the firing squad.

2 Q. My question was very simple: Where and how did you hear that?

3 A. We heard it in the camp.

4 Q. From whom?

5 A. I point out before the Honourable Court that the lawyer seeks

6 names of honest Serbs, and in that part -- and there are still extremists

7 there, so that I should like to ask the Honourable Court to say I should

8 not even write those names for him, because I know what will happen to

9 those honest people. If I may ask that.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, this is the point that the witness took

11 yesterday afternoon -- I'm sorry, yesterday morning. It's a view which is

12 one which he very strongly holds, obviously. Whether it's justified or

13 not is not really a matter for us. I think we all recognise that a

14 failure or a refusal to identify such persons must have some bearing on

15 the weight to be afforded to his evidence, but I would not myself like to

16 force him to do so. He made it very clear that he believes that you or

17 those around you will reveal them to people who will then cause trouble

18 for the persons he names. As I say, we're not going to buy into that.

19 But his refusal, for whatever reason, to identify them clearly does have

20 some effect on the weight of the evidence he's given. I think that

21 probably is sufficient for your purposes, unless you wish to pursue the

22 matter further.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree. I do not

24 want to insist on this really. I'll ask only one question about this, and

25 I'm not asking for any names. And I'll try to finish this witness as

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Page 3380

1 quickly as possible, and I do believe that it will come to an end

2 shortly. I know; I also would be very happy if the answers were shorter

3 and more precise, but what can I do?

4 Q. Sir, do you remember saying to the OTP that you learnt about the

5 court martial on the radio?

6 A. I am not quite sure, but it is possible that I said that, because

7 those were the early days. It was in the early days of the war, so that

8 we also had a radio. But even without the radio, we learned this

9 information.

10 Q. When you spoke, sir, about persons -- or rather, that other

11 prisoners had heard something splashing against the water, you also then

12 stated that on the radio you heard later on that the bodies of those

13 prisoners had been found in Gorazde; is that true?

14 A. It is true.

15 Q. Which radio station?

16 A. Yes. I shall be shorter today. Yes, that is true.

17 Q. Which radio station? Will you wait for my question to be

18 interpreted.

19 A. I repeat once again what I repeated yesterday and the day before

20 yesterday.

21 Q. You said you would not be repeating yourself, you would give us

22 short answers. My question was: Which radio did you hear it on?

23 A. Radio Sarajevo, report from Foca.

24 Q. And from Foca they reported that the bodies of those prisoners had

25 been found in Gorazde, which was then under Muslim control?

Page 3381

1 A. Just a moment. I'm referring to bodies which were thrown from the

2 bridge, and those other bodies which were killed in the hospital, they

3 stayed there and the mother sent the godfather of this young man to Foca

4 from Cajnice so that --

5 Q. Let's not beat about the bush here. I'm referring to bodies which

6 were thrown from the bridge. You told us that you heard on the radio that

7 they had been found in Gorazde. Are you telling the truth?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And that was a report from Foca for Radio Sarajevo, is it?

10 A. I said that a woman from Serb origin told the journalist Semso

11 Tucakovic, who then broadcast it on the radio.

12 Q. And that woman of Serb origin, was she in Foca?

13 A. She was in Foca. She was killed -- she was found dead, and after

14 that we could not hear anything.

15 Q. But how could she know what had been found in Gorazde if there was

16 a front line between Foca and Gorazde?

17 A. Well, we are in the middle ages and the telephones do not exist.

18 It is very difficult to cover those 30 kilometres with the radio

19 stations. Radio station and transistors and receivers do not exist, you

20 mean we are still in the middle ages. Is that what you're saying? So

21 there was no way she could find that out.

22 Q. Thank you, sir, very much. I shall move on specifically to names

23 that you gave us here. I will ask you about Professor Dzelilovic. You

24 mentioned him. Was his father in the KP Dom?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3382

1 Q. Do you know when he was taken out?

2 A. I said that I -- dates, I -- well, he was there for a short while

3 and then he disappeared and was killed.

4 Q. Can you tell us which room he was taken from?

5 A. When I was separated from those collective rooms -- four of us who

6 worked distributing food, we were separated.

7 Q. So that you do not know what room he was taken from, is it?

8 A. Well, that room was on the first floor because I know from the

9 kitchen one could see who comes from which floor, first floor, and I

10 really didn't care about room, whether this room or that room. I don't

11 even know which room I was in because I was in all of them, so that I

12 didn't care about the numbers.

13 Q. Did you see who took him out?

14 A. I repeat before the Honourable Court - and this is the hundredth

15 time I repeat this - the order from the administration, arrival of

16 officers as we had to call them, taking out and disappearance.

17 Q. My question is specific: Which officer took him out?

18 A. I cannot answer that because I couldn't even watch it anymore,

19 there were so many of these, so many were taken out. And it never crossed

20 my mind to try to remember which officer.

21 Q. What time of the day was it?

22 A. I think -- well, as a rule they took people out in late

23 afternoon. That is when it usually happened.

24 Q. At about what time in late afternoon?

25 A. Well, it depends on the season of the year, and that was spring

Page 3383

1 time.

2 Q. Well, if the summer, then it's 8.00 or 9.00?

3 A. Well, it was spring time, so it could have been around 4.00 or

4 5.00, half past five, 6.00, thereabouts.

5 Q. Where were you when he was taken out?

6 A. I was in the canteen. It was before the dinner or perhaps it was

7 the end of it, so that -- I spent the whole day in the restaurant while I

8 worked in the restaurant, that is, in the kitchen.

9 Q. But were you working or watching through the window?

10 A. Well, let me explain. When we finish our work, then we have to

11 make the fire beneath the caldron, so that we are in the yard. The

12 caldron was outside because -- because we used firewood to cook meals, if

13 that means anything to you.

14 Q. Was food prepared in this one caldron for everybody in the KP Dom?

15 A. For all the inmates.

16 Q. What about the Serb prisoners and others who ate there?

17 A. It changed later.

18 Q. I'm asking you whether there was a separate caldron.

19 A. At first, at first, it was the same. And later, we were

20 replaced. Serbs came to work at this caldron. At first, it was -- when

21 we were first detained, there was one caldron, and then later on we were

22 replaced by Serbs, I think.

23 Q. And they cooked using this same caldron?

24 A. They cooked using the same caldron, I think, because they had

25 there even greater extremists, the way they looked at it, so they were

Page 3384

1 also beaten, yes, battered.

2 Q. You mentioned a person with the last name of Vahida. Do you know

3 when he was taken out?

4 A. Vahida also during these first months was beaten, battered and

5 taken out. I saw him a few days, for a few days, when he was beaten up

6 and when he came to eat. After that he was taken out, killed, and he went

7 missing. It was that group.

8 Q. I'm asking you whether you saw when he was taken out.

9 A. Every inmate --

10 Q. Please answer me specifically. Did you see him? I'm not asking

11 you about what other inmates saw.

12 A. I cannot remember this moment. I mean to tell you the exact time,

13 whatever. I mean, I'd have to have a computer rather than a head.

14 Q. I'm just asking you whether you saw him.

15 A. At first, I saw everybody who was taken out and remembered him

16 too.

17 Q. I'm asking you whether you saw him being taken out and when he

18 went missing or, as you say, when he was killed.

19 A. I don't know. I told you I remembered everybody I knew because

20 there would be commotion immediately at any time during the night. Even

21 the Serbs who would stay there would say, "They are taking out these

22 guys," and even when there were only four of us in this room.

23 Q. Sir, let's make it easier for the court and for everyone. There

24 are quite a few names. I would like to move from one name to another and

25 I'd like to ask you about the details, the time and the place where these

Page 3385

1 persons were taken from so that we would not waste time. Just tell me,

2 please, whether you can say for all of these persons, whether they were

3 taken out, when they were taken out, where they were taken out, by who

4 they were taken out, and where you were? Or can you simply not tell us

5 any of this?

6 A. I can. I can say, but who took them out, it didn't mean a thing

7 to me or to the other inmates. These younger men remembered all the names

8 of these people who took them out and we know through who they got orders

9 to take them out. I mean, if this is clear to you, if my answer is clear

10 to you.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I think the answer is clear enough that he cannot

12 tell us who took them out. And I think he's also said he can't say the

13 time. Now, if there are any other details, you take him to those.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I also asked whether he

15 knew in which rooms these persons were. Of course, I agree with what

16 you've said specifically. And also, where was he? Did he see everybody

17 individually as they were taken out and then never returned?

18 JUDGE HUNT: Those are the details I suggest that you ask him

19 specifically in relation to the particular matters, and we will see how we

20 go.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. You mentioned a person named Mandzo?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know which room he was in and where you were when you saw

25 him being taken out?

Page 3386

1 A. This person Mandzo, if you're asking me about a person who was

2 beaten up together with that salesperson, I am answering you in that

3 connection. At that time, I was in the room next door. In the same

4 hallway, there were two other rooms and there was a single entrance door

5 so all these rooms and all of us were there together, room by room. And

6 there was one door. So I was next door to where Mandzo was.

7 Q. In which part of the building was this?

8 A. The first building, downstairs.

9 Q. You mentioned a person called Dzanko?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Which room was he in?

12 A. The same room where Mandzo was.

13 Q. Was he taken out at the same time when Mandzo was taken out?

14 A. I cannot give you the exact minutes and seconds. We saw them

15 being taken out, they were beaten up, they were returned and I mentioned

16 that Dr. Berberkic sewed up this man's face. So suffice it to say that

17 that happened, and we have said enough about this salesperson. I know one

18 thing. I mean I didn't know this salesperson very well and I didn't know

19 Mandzo very well either. They lived a bit further away from me but I got

20 to know them down there and they were taken away and there has been no

21 trace of them.

22 Q. You say that they were returned and then sewn up. When were they

23 returned? Were they taken out together?

24 A. They went missing at the same time, and they have never been seen

25 since. Now, let me tell you whether I can give you the exact second when

Page 3387

1 they were taken away. Again, I say I'd have to be a computer. I'd have

2 to have a video camera, I mean to record all of this.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, we've heard all of this. You must be doing this

4 deliberately. We have told you so often not to repeat yourself and to

5 answer the question.

6 A. I do apologise, Your Honour.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Sir, I asked you about Dzelilovic, Vahida, Mandzo, Dzanko. Did

9 you have contact with their families when you got out of the KP Dom?

10 A. With Mandzo's mother. I worked with her at the presidency for

11 refugees and I talked to her personally. I cannot tell you how I talked

12 to her. I talked to her personally and it was in that place where I told

13 you.

14 Q. Which Mandzo?

15 A. The one who was beaten up together with that salesperson. He was

16 a male nurse by profession.

17 Q. Is that Mandzo nicknamed Kelta?

18 A. No. I am talking -- I said straight away, if we are talking about

19 Mandzo from that room, then he's a male nurse, whereas Kelta is free.

20 Kelta got out, Kelta was released, Mandzo Kelta.

21 Q. Where did you work with the mother of this Mandzo?

22 A. She came to this office in Sarajevo. It has its presidency for

23 displaced persons and refugees so all parents whose children were killed

24 in the notorious camp are crying and weeping until the present day. So I

25 would kindly ask the honourable judges to tell this gentleman not to

Page 3388

1 pester me asking me questions like this. Because this woman is still

2 screaming, not only crying, she is devastated. I told you about this

3 office in Sarajevo where men and women still come in sobbing and crying

4 because of all these young people who were killed. I don't know what to

5 tell you anymore. All right. Well, ask me and I'll answer you, but

6 that's where I talked to her. Right now she is in a foreign country. I

7 don't know which country. She told me which country. But she came to

8 this presidency where we have these offices of ours in Sarajevo.

9 Q. So you work in this office for displaced persons?

10 A. I did work there, sir, for two years.

11 Q. At what time, which two years are we talking about?

12 A. I said that I worked there for two years. There are documents to

13 prove that and now I don't know what this means to you. I mean asking me

14 at what time.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Look sir --

16 A. I mean --

17 JUDGE HUNT: Just stop for a moment, please. I've told you twice

18 today already it's not for you to determine what is relevant and what is

19 not. I assume that you've come here in an endeavour to assist the

20 Tribunal by giving the evidence that you have. But the evidence that you

21 give is of little value to us unless it has been tested to see whether

22 it's true, and this is the means by which it is tested. Now, I know you

23 don't like it and I wouldn't like to be under a cross-examination myself,

24 but if you do wish to assist this Tribunal, I'm afraid you just have to

25 answer these questions. The question which is asked of you is when did

Page 3389

1 you work for that organisation. That is relevant to test the assertion

2 that you have made that these persons have never been heard of again. We

3 want to know when it was you were working there and when you would have

4 had the opportunity to have heard of them again. Now, if you're not going

5 to answer the question, just say so. It means, of course, that your

6 evidence will carry little weight. But I suggest to you if you answer the

7 question, it will save us all a great deal of time and it may well assist

8 us in accepting your evidence.

9 A. I do apologise, Your Honours. I am going to answer the

10 gentleman's question. (redacted).

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Did you talk to the persons who came there as displaced persons?

13 Did you talk about what had happened in Foca?

14 A. It's not that we only talked over there. These stories are heard

15 throughout the world and I think that you know this full well.

16 Q. Thank you, sir. I asked you about four persons. You mentioned

17 that you had had contact with a certain person called Mandzo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What about the rest?

20 A. The rest? I might have had contact with them, but without knowing

21 their names. But I knew this woman.

22 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you mentioned Nurko Nisic, sir. Do you know

23 which room he was taken out of?

24 A. Nurko Nisic was taken out -- again I'm telling you that I was not

25 interested in the numbers of rooms. He was taken out of the first

Page 3390

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Page 3391

1 building. When Nurko Nisic was tortured, when he screamed, we all

2 recognised his voice, because he got married very young, he was a

3 well-developed man. They beat him so badly that perhaps his screams could

4 have been heard to the centre of Foca, so to speak.

5 Q. Where were you at that moment?

6 A. At that time I was in that room over there, in the isolated room,

7 in another building. I heard it even from there.

8 Q. Was this the isolation cell?

9 A. No, no. I said that the four of us had a separate room. It was

10 not an isolation cell.

11 Q. Which building is this? The second one?

12 A. The second one.

13 Q. Do you remember what time of the day it was?

14 A. This was also in the early evening.

15 Q. Yesterday you mentioned Halim Konjo as well, sir. Do you know

16 which room he was taken out of?

17 A. Halim Konjo was taken out -- at that time I was also transferred

18 to these rooms where they were, so his room was L -- if you look at this

19 L-shape, Halim Konjo was at this L-shape and our windows were like this.

20 So he could establish contact with us, and not only him, but everybody who

21 was in that room, through the windows. It was nearby, a metre or two.

22 Q. It was the first or second building?

23 A. The first building.

24 Q. At what time was he taken out?

25 A. Also early in the evening.

Page 3392

1 Q. Where were you then?

2 A. In the room, in the room. At that time I was in the room, because

3 when I was in the room, in the room where they were, then I was kicked out

4 of the kitchen.

5 Q. Which room were you in? In which part of the building?

6 A. The first part of the building, the ground floor, diagonally,

7 right above the door that was the exit and entrance into and out of the

8 camp. I was about -- I was very close to the door, so we could see

9 everything: who was taken out, everything.

10 Q. Is that the room above the storage area?

11 A. Yes, yes. Just a minute. Just a minute. It's not. It's not.

12 This room was here. The building is like this, here, here, here. And

13 then we could watch from here, see, from this other side. Does this mean

14 anything to you? I mean, it just so happened that I know this, and that's

15 pretty important to me. I could see this. We were in this kind of room.

16 It's not the room above the storage area, but it's over here, if this

17 means anything to you.

18 Q. Is it in the other part of the building?

19 A. It's in the same building, the same building, but the L-shaped

20 thing.

21 Q. Were you in a room that is closer to the administration building

22 of the KP Dom, the part that is closer to the administration building of

23 the KP Dom?

24 A. Well, viewed from this first part, perhaps it's 10 or 15 metres

25 away. Not much difference, is it? Ten or fifteen metres, sort of

Page 3393

1 protruding out here, sort of L-shaped, so it's closer to the offices.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher for his

3 assistance. Could you please show us this.

4 Q. Please look at this floor plan, 6/1. There's building number 1

5 and there's building number 2.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] And could the usher please keep the

7 floor plan there if we still need it.

8 A. It's this building here. This is building number 1. Part of the

9 building here --

10 Q. Sir, we can see where the building is. Just show us where you

11 were in terms of this specific question. In which room were you when you

12 saw Halim Konjo being taken out and not returning?

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

14 microphone.

15 A. This building here, this other one. If I'm knowledgeable enough

16 as far as this drawing is concerned, there were these rooms here, so we

17 could talk, if I'm knowledgeable enough as far as this drawing is

18 concerned. I mean, there was this room here. This room was above the

19 storage area, and this other room was in this other building. Perhaps I

20 made a mistake a few moments ago, and I do apologise to this Honourable

21 Court if I did that. So this room is in this building, and these

22 prisoners who were here, that's where Halim Konjo also was.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, let me say that

24 on 6/1, the witness has been showing building number 1, the right-hand

25 part of building number 1, and he says Halim Konjo was taken out of there

Page 3394

1 and he's showing --

2 Please, sir, let me finish.

3 He is showing building number 2, the protruding part of the

4 building, the part that protrudes towards the administrative building, and

5 he says that his room was there.

6 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's not quite clear - at least, it's not

7 clear enough to me - precisely where it was the witness says he was when

8 he saw this man being taken out. I think he means in the L-shaped part of

9 building 2. I'm not sure. So if you would like to pursue that matter, it

10 will be of assistance to us. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Sir, you're talking about building number 2, that you were there

13 in that building. On which floor?

14 A. Ground floor.

15 Q. Were you in this part which is closer to the administration

16 building?

17 A. This part was closer. I would kindly ask the Honourable

18 Court -- I mean, I don't know. I'm not very knowledgeable as far as this

19 drawing is concerned, because I'm not an expert in construction or in

20 mechanics. So could the Honourable Court please provide a photograph of

21 the camp for me?

22 JUDGE HUNT: We've got the sketch. That might be the best idea.

23 Mr. Smith will be proud of this witness.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 3395

1 A. Excellent. So if I see this correctly, I'll say the same thing

2 that I said as far as the drawing was concerned as well.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, sir. No, don't tell us what is

4 what. Sir, don't.

5 A. I was in this building that has windows here, on this side, and on

6 the other side. So there were more rooms here, where there were

7 prisoners, and there were also rooms here were there were prisoners, and I

8 don't know what you're asking me really.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript, the

10 witness is showing the part of the building marked "B" on this sketch. He

11 said that he was on the ground floor and that his windows were facing the

12 building which is marked "A" on this sketch.

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Would you agree with that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff? It

15 seems to be so.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I'm sorry Mr. Smith wasn't here to see

18 it.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sir, please. You mentioned the Rikalo brothers. Do you know

21 where they were taken out of, from which room?

22 A. The brothers Rikalo? I met them only at the camp. They were

23 taken out. At that time I was working in the kitchen. Now, I don't know

24 exactly whether I had been transferred from the kitchen, because for a

25 while --

Page 3396

1 Q. No, sir. Just tell me: Do you know which room they were taken

2 out of?

3 A. The first building. I don't know the exact room. The first

4 building. Because had I known the layout, if I knew where each prisoner

5 was, I would have been the warden, if I would have known every room, every

6 prisoner.

7 Q. That's fine. Thank you, sir. That's enough. Were all the

8 brothers taken out at the same time?

9 A. One by one.

10 Q. Were they all in the same room?

11 A. I repeat it once again: Had I been distributing people around all

12 the rooms, then I would have memorised them all, and if not there, then I

13 would have had it noted down.

14 Q. Where were you when brothers Rikalo were taken out?

15 A. Brothers Rikalo, when they were taken out, would you believe it

16 that at the time when they were taken out -- I don't know. You tell me

17 I'm not answering you specifically. I don't know myself where I was, but

18 if that means anything to you, I was in the building of the camp. Now, to

19 tell you within a metre or two ...

20 Q. Thank you. And Nail Hodzic, when he was taken, where was it from?

21 A. The first building too, and beaten and battered and then taken out

22 and disappeared, killed.

23 Q. Did you see him being taken?

24 A. I've told you about every one of them, at what time of the day, at

25 what time of the night I was in that compound, and I pointed out that I

Page 3397

1 did not see all the prisoners, because hundreds and hundreds of them were

2 taken out, but I did see him.

3 Q. Where were you when you saw him? From where did you see him being

4 taken out?

5 A. I was in this room which I just pointed out on the drawing, when

6 he was beaten and when he passed on his way to meals and when he was taken

7 away. I saw it all. I told you, I was in this building which is

8 L-shaped.

9 Q. And at what time of the day was he taken out?

10 A. Early evening/late afternoon again.

11 Q. You mentioned yesterday Mustafa Kuloglija. Where was he taken out

12 from?

13 A. Mustafa Kuloglija, also in the early days, he also came from those

14 rooms which were near us, on this other side. And upstairs there were

15 also floors and there were also rooms there. And on the upper floor, on

16 this drawing here, building A and then in this upper part, the upper part

17 was filled and the lower part was filled and we moved from one building to

18 another.

19 Q. Just a moment, sir. You moved the pointer, and I will ask you:

20 Are you saying that it was building A?

21 A. Building A, like "L."

22 Q. And you say that the topmost floors were filled up.

23 A. At that time all the rooms were filled up. Those were the early

24 days of bringing in, beating, killing; and then some left, others came in.

25 Q. And you are talking about the topmost floor of the building?

Page 3398

1 A. The building was completely full. I don't know how many prisoners

2 there were. I only know that we came for meals. There were columns and

3 columns of them.

4 Q. Yesterday you also mentioned an individual called Krunoslav

5 Marinovic?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. What room was he taken out of that time when he did not come back

8 again?

9 A. Krunoslav Marinovic was in a lower room in building A. He came

10 beaten up, and after a while was taken out, killed, and is missing.

11 There's no trace of him.

12 Q. Can you tell me, sir, whether Mustafa Kuloglija and Nurko Nisic

13 were taken out together, that is, at the same time or roughly at the same

14 time?

15 A. I can say that groups and groups, if they took one group today and

16 another group the next day, so that I cannot answer concretely to you, the

17 Honourable Court, whether they went out together, because it was groups

18 that left, one after another. And we watched non-stop how they were going

19 away. At that time the number of killings was the highest.

20 Q. And tell us sir, where were you when Kruno Marinovic was taken

21 out?

22 A. When Krunoslav Marinovic was taken out, those were the early days

23 because I know -- I've already said that I saw him battered completely.

24 So that in the beginning I was there. That is, I lived in this lower part

25 until we were transferred over there. Those were early days. And then

Page 3399

1 when these extremists from Serbia, Montenegro left, a few of them were

2 left behind.

3 Q. You spoke about Dzanko, Nurko Nisic, Halim Konjo, Kuloglija,

4 Marinovic. Did you communicate with some members of their family?

5 A. I communicated with the family -- with Kuloglija's relatives. I

6 communicated with Klinac's family. I communicated with a close relative

7 of the Gagovic woman, that is Krunoslav's, and she's his sister's

8 daughter. I communicated with her in Foca, when they took me out to take

9 out flour sacks from the bakery. I've told you people that I had

10 communicated with.

11 Q. And after you left the KP Dom, you communicated with Krunoslav

12 Marinovic's family?

13 A. No. With Krunoslav Marinovic's family, I spoke personally with

14 his -- what's he to him? His sister's daughter is married to him, as he

15 was passing by the bakery. And I said how -- I talked to him in Foca.

16 Q. The question is quite clear. Did you communicate with Marinovic's

17 family after your release from the prison?

18 A. No, but I did speak to them before I was released, in a bakery

19 which is about 100 metres away from the prison and I was unloading some

20 sacks of flour and he was passing by.

21 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a person called Hamid Bico. What room was

22 he taken from?

23 A. Same thing. Hamid Bico was also taken from this first. Now,

24 whether he lived on that floor or on the ground floor but this first

25 building at any rate.

Page 3400

1 Q. Where were you when you saw him being taken out?

2 A. These are all early days. I think that I was in the kitchen at

3 the time. Can't really remember.

4 Q. And what time of the day was it when he was taken out?

5 A. Late afternoon, early evening.

6 Q. And that means what time?

7 A. Well, that was spring, and it was late spring then. It was

8 already dark so it could have been 4.00 or 5.00, thereabouts.

9 Q. You mentioned a person called Zulfo Veiz. What room was he taken

10 from?

11 A. From the first building again. I think I also watched him being

12 taken away from the kitchen.

13 Q. At what time?

14 A. Same, late afternoon.

15 Q. You also mentioned a person called Mate Ivancic. What room was he

16 taken from?

17 A. Mate Ivancic was taken out from room L, upper floor, on the side.

18 I don't know which room exactly.

19 Q. Again, building numbering 1?

20 A. Yes, yes, building number 1.

21 Q. And where were you then?

22 A. I think I was in the kitchen on that occasion, too.

23 Q. Was it the same day when Mate Ivancic and those others were taken

24 out?

25 A. I've already said they took one group today, the next group the

Page 3401

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Page 3402

1 next day, so as to make us believe that nothing was happening.

2 Q. And brothers Cancusic, where were they taken from, which room?

3 A. Brothers Cancusic were also taken out in the beginning and were

4 killed and are missing. And I also communicated with their parents in

5 Sarajevo.

6 Q. I asked you which room?

7 A. Whether the L one or this one here.

8 Q. But is it the first building or the second building?

9 A. The first building.

10 Q. And where were you when you saw that?

11 A. I think I was in the kitchen, not quite 100 per cent.

12 Q. You also mentioned Seval Soro. Which room?

13 A. Again the same, first building.

14 Q. And where were you at that time?

15 A. I think I was in the kitchen.

16 Q. At what time of the day was he taken out?

17 A. Well, it looked like he was being taken away earlier than those

18 others. He was supposedly to take something. When we asked about, we

19 were told, well, he has to take a vehicle somewhere, to take something

20 somewhere, but he didn't take anything anywhere or --

21 Q. You also mentioned Fuad Mandzo, sir.

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Is that the Mandzo salesman?

24 A. No, no, no. It is a young man. I think he was a builder -- a

25 mason or something.

Page 3403

1 Q. And where was he taken out from?

2 A. He was also taken from these first, and he was also beaten. I

3 don't know exactly when he was taken away. I cannot remember that, but

4 they beat him and beat him. And the other Mandzo, they also beat him.

5 And so they beat him and took him away but I can't remember when exactly.

6 Q. Did you see him being taken away?

7 A. I can't remember.

8 Q. You mentioned Enes Uzunovic yesterday, sir?

9 A. I did.

10 Q. Do you know which room he was taken from?

11 A. I cannot remember the room exactly but at the time when he was

12 taken away, they -- he asked, "Should I take something with me?" And they

13 said, "No, nothing."

14 Q. How do you know that? Were you in the same room with him?

15 A. I was nearby. I was quite near. So that we communicated. Or be

16 that as it may, but I saw it immediately when they took him out,

17 everything, his personal papers and his clothes, all stayed behind. He

18 was taken out, disappeared, was killed.

19 Q. Where did you hear that exchange? In the yard or in the building?

20 A. What I heard, I was told that by those who were in the room with

21 him. I could not hear that because it was in another room.

22 Q. But did you see had him being taken out?

23 A. I saw him be taken out.

24 Q. Where was -- where were you when he was taken out?

25 A. I can't remember, but I saw his clothes later on and all his

Page 3404

1 papers and everything. Everything just stayed behind.

2 Q. Yesterday, you also mentioned a person called Alija Altoka. Where

3 was he taken out from?

4 A. The first building again.

5 Q. At about what time of the day?

6 A. I can't really remember, believe me.

7 Q. And where were you when you saw him being taken out?

8 A. I think I was in the kitchen again when he was taken out.

9 Q. Yesterday, you also mentioned a person called Adil Granov?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Where was he taken out from?

12 A. Adil Granov was also in the first building, somewhere, and from

13 that first building, he was taken out and disappeared.

14 Q. At what time of the day?

15 A. I think it was still daylight. There was more daylight then.

16 Q. And where were you?

17 A. I cannot recollect whether I was in the kitchen or -- in the

18 kitchen, in the kitchen. I know I worked in the kitchen at that time, and

19 we called him because he was a big expert. He was a mechanical engineer

20 and we called him to help us, to help us repair the potato peeler. And

21 after that, he disappeared.

22 Q. Was he with a group or alone?

23 A. I think he was taken alone.

24 Q. You also mentioned a person called Munib Veiz?

25 A. I did.

Page 3405

1 Q. Where was he taken out from?

2 A. He was taken out with this group, Soro, the taxi driver, what's

3 his name, that was the group that he was taken out with.

4 Q. And what room?

5 A. Same room, I cannot say whether from rooms L or what, but the

6 first building.

7 Q. And where were you at that time?

8 A. I think I was in the kitchen.

9 Q. And what --

10 A. Because those were early days. I don't know at what time.

11 Q. And you saw from the kitchen how they took out this group?

12 A. Well, when I say "kitchen," it is the whole kitchen, this whole

13 kitchen area. That is, caldron from which you can see it all.

14 Q. And at about what time?

15 A. I cannot remember the time.

16 Q. What time of the day?

17 A. I cannot remember the time of the day. I cannot remember that.

18 Q. Do you remember the weather that day?

19 A. Well, that spring was very cloudy. That spring wept, if that

20 means anything to you. The saddest time in my life, both in terms of the

21 weather and as far as I'm personally concerned.

22 Q. Yesterday you mentioned a person called Kemal Tulek?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Where was he taken out from?

25 A. He spent in the isolation cell all the time.

Page 3406

1 Q. And when was he taken out?

2 A. I don't know exactly, believe me.

3 Q. Did you see him being taken out?

4 A. I am not aware of that because it went on non-stop. They beat him

5 non-stop. And I cannot really answer 100 per cent, and I do not want to

6 lie before the court or before you.

7 Q. You also mentioned a person called Ramo Dzendusic. Where was he

8 taken out from?

9 A. Ramo Dzendusic, I said the people who had moved in Foca, and I

10 don't remember their surname. If you're talking about a salesman from

11 Tabaci, one salesman from Tabaci was so beaten that he hanged himself. He

12 simply couldn't stand the pain any more and he hanged himself. If that's

13 the salesman, I don't know.

14 Q. In other words, you don't know who I'm referring to?

15 A. No, no, no. I'm saying if that is the salesman, because I could

16 not those names remember. If it is -- if Ramo is that salesman that he

17 was beaten up and he hanged himself.

18 Q. And if it is another Dzendusic?

19 A. There were two with that surname. I think there was one Dzendusic

20 who worked in the military department, in the military office, up in the

21 police station. He was in charge of military matters. If that is the one

22 you mean, he was taken out and killed. If you mean the salesman, he was

23 beaten up and he hanged himself. Their names sound alike but I didn't

24 know them before. I never met them before. Even that one that worked in

25 the police station, I never really met him. I may have seen him twice in

Page 3407

1 my life altogether.

2 Q. But did you know both Dzendusics before the war?

3 A. Well, I may have seen this one twice and the other one once or

4 twice, I mean the salesman.

5 Q. And before the war, did you know their names?

6 A. No, I didn't, believe me, nor did I want to know them.

7 Q. When did you learn their names?

8 A. In the prison, in the camp.

9 Q. Did you see one of them being taken out?

10 A. I saw the one who had worked in the police station was responsible

11 for military matters, because he trembled like a reed in the camp, and he

12 was taken out and is missing. And I also communicated with his family,

13 and they are not in Bosnia at the moment. I believe they are in Germany,

14 but they came to Sarajevo and we communicated.

15 Q. Tell us which room was he taken from?

16 A. The one that was in the military office, he was taken out from my

17 room.

18 Q. In which part of the building?

19 A. The first part of the building, ground floor, because he was in my

20 room.

21 Q. What time of the day?

22 A. It was daylight.

23 Q. Were you in the room?

24 A. Yes, I was in the room.

25 Q. Was it in the early days?

Page 3408

1 A. I cannot say how many months. No, not right in the beginning.

2 Several months had passed by.

3 Q. Weren't you working in the kitchen at the time?

4 A. I'm telling you that I worked in the kitchen and was kicked out of

5 the kitchen at the time when there were those people who were so exhausted

6 so emaciated, they were falling down, and I -- and then I was thrown out

7 of the kitchen and stopped working in the kitchen.

8 Q. And this Dzendusic, was he taken all by himself or with a group?

9 A. No. He was alone when he was taken away.

10 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a person called Juso Dzamalija. Where

11 he was he taken out from?

12 A. Those surnames, Dzendusic, Dzamalija, I can't tell one from the

13 other because I cannot give an exact answer. I don't know all those

14 surnames. I know what they look like, but I cannot tell the surnames, one

15 from the other.

16 Q. Well, how then can you say -- how can you recognise faces?

17 A. Well, when you give me those surnames, it is more difficult for me

18 to say which surname is which without a photograph, but I know that those

19 surnames were tortured and killed.

20 JUDGE HUNT: You're not waiting for the translation to finish,

21 Mr. Bakrac.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours.

23 Q. What does this thing that you just said mean, "I know that those

24 surnames were taken out and killed"? Yesterday, you said that Juso

25 Dzamalija was taken out and killed. Now you tell us that you cannot

Page 3409

1 remember.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --

3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Juso Dzamalija was the person where the

5 witness did not know the name. It was the conclusion of the Prosecution

6 that this must be Juso Dzamalija, because the witness said one of these

7 Dzendusics hanged himself. This is actually the name that the witness did

8 not mention.

9 JUDGE HUNT: I think we'd have to look it up. I don't remember.

10 I remember there was a very hotly disputed assignation by the Prosecution

11 of one of these incidents. But if that's so, I don't think you could ask

12 him about the name in those circumstances.

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but my notes say

14 differently. But I'm not challenging what my learned friend has said and

15 I shall move on so as not to waste more time on that. My apologies.

16 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

17 JUDGE HUNT: You wish to leave now, sir? Do you want a break

18 now?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may, please.

20 JUDGE HUNT: We'll take an early break. We'll resume at 11.20.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.23 a.m.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Sir, I still have to ask you about four persons you mentioned.

Page 3410

1 You mentioned a person named Mesa Sofradzija. Do you know which room he

2 was taken out of?

3 A. Mesa Sofradzija, I know that person well. He was taken out. He

4 was first in the rooms and then he was taken out of the isolation cell.

5 Q. At what time of day?

6 A. I'm not sure, but it was sort of dark.

7 Q. Where were you when they took him out?

8 A. I think I was in the kitchen then, in front of the caldron, when

9 dinner was over and everything, the cleaning of the caldron.

10 Q. You say "sort of dark." For how long did dinner go on?

11 A. Dinner? I can't remember exactly. See, I don't remember these

12 times of the day very well. Before there was actual nightfall, we would

13 stay there. We would stay there to clean up after dinner was over and

14 when it was really dark.

15 Q. Were you in the kitchen, or rather, did you hear beatings when

16 Mesa Sofradzija was taken out?

17 A. We heard moans when they were beating him in the isolation cell.

18 When they were beating him in the isolation cell, that's when I heard it.

19 Q. On that same day?

20 A. No, not on that day; on several occasions. I think he was beaten

21 up several times.

22 Q. So when he was taken out, you didn't hear anything?

23 A. I didn't hear beatings then. He was just taken out.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. You said -- you mentioned a person named Rasim

25 Kajgana. Where was he taken from?

Page 3411

1 A. He was taken out -- we had already been transferred to the upper

2 rooms. He was taken out of those rooms upstairs, the upper floors. I

3 don't know exactly. I think building A, the top floor, so I know we were

4 in that room too.

5 Q. Building A, top floor; is that right?

6 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but he was a bit up.

7 Q. Where were you when he was taken out?

8 A. I think that I was in the room then.

9 Q. Which room?

10 A. The room where he had been.

11 Q. You were in the same room with him?

12 A. I think I was, because I know when he was taken out -- when he was

13 taken out to chop firewood, I was also taken out to chop firewood in the

14 compound.

15 Q. I'm asking you: When he was taken out, he was taken out of your

16 room and you were in the room and you saw him taken out?

17 A. He did not return. He never returned. I thought it was some kind

18 of exchange. I saw his family in Sarajevo as well.

19 Q. At that time you were in building A, on the top floor?

20 A. Yes, something like that. Whether it was the last floor or

21 not -- well, at any rate, I was in that building, yes.

22 Q. Did you hear beatings when he was taken out?

23 A. I didn't. I can't remember that I heard screams or something like

24 that. I thought -- well, he had Mojevic. He asked him to release him, so

25 I thought that perhaps he had arranged something through someone. He was

Page 3412

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Page 3413

1 taken out and killed. I'm not sure, but I didn't hear him being

2 tortured. At any rate, his entire family, everybody who is abroad, like

3 his wife, they all came to Sarajevo, and talk, and there has been no trace

4 of him since.

5 Q. Tell me, was he taken out on his own?

6 A. Yes, on his own.

7 Q. Can you remember which time of the year it was when he was taken

8 out?

9 A. I cannot recall that date.

10 Q. I didn't ask you about the date, sir. I asked you about the time

11 of year.

12 A. No, believe me, I can't even say what time of year it was.

13 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a person named Avdo Mehmedspahic. Where

14 was he taken out from?

15 A. He was taken out of the isolation cell.

16 Q. What time of day?

17 A. Sometime in the early evening.

18 Q. Where were you? Where did you see him being taken out?

19 A. I think I was in front of the kitchen caldron then or inside. I

20 can't remember. At any rate, he was tortured, battered and taken away. I

21 also talked to his family in Sarajevo. He was killed.

22 Q. When he was taken out, did you hear the sounds of beatings?

23 A. Yes. I most often heard these sounds from the isolation cell,

24 because they were one opposite the other. There was a short distance.

25 Q. How do you know that he was the person who was being beaten in the

Page 3414

1 isolation cell?

2 A. (redacted). So

3 I knew him well.

4 Q. When he was taken out, did you hear sounds of beatings?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. You also mentioned the Hadzimesic brothers?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where were they taken out of?

9 A. The Hadzimesic brothers, one was in one room and the other one was

10 in the room opposite that one. I mean -- when I say "opposite," well, I

11 don't know whether you know this expression, one was upstairs and the

12 other one, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but at any rate it is in building

13 A. I don't know whether it was in the L-shaped part or whatever. But at

14 any rate, I know when I was in this room here, I would see them go out.

15 At that time, I had been thrown out of the kitchen so we saw them

16 non-stop. They were going to have lunch so they could not pass by without

17 passing by us, I mean by our windows.

18 Q. Were they taken out together?

19 A. I can't remember. One by one, because this one was separated. I

20 mean, if one was taken out one day, then the other one will be taken a few

21 days later. I knew the first one would be killed immediately because they

22 tortured him too, one of them, an elderly man or younger, I don't know.

23 Q. Did you hear the sound of beatings when any one of them was taken

24 out?

25 A. I cannot recall.

Page 3415

1 Q. Did you see -- or, rather, where were you when the first one was

2 taken out and where were you when the second one was taken out?

3 A. I was in the same room when the first and the other one were taken

4 out. We thought, as far as the other one was concerned, as they had told

5 us, and it was all wrong, they were trying to pull a smoke screen over our

6 faces, because they said that he was taken out and they had mistreated

7 him, mistreated him verbally, and things like that.

8 Q. Which room were you in?

9 A. Building B, the ground floor.

10 Q. When they were taken out did you hear that they were beaten, first

11 the one and then the other?

12 A. I cannot remember that. I also talked to their family in

13 Sarajevo.

14 Q. You say that you were thrown out of the kitchen. If I understood

15 you correctly, during the examination in chief, you said that you were

16 returned to the kitchen later?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you remember which time of the year it was, and when you were

19 returned to the kitchen again?

20 A. Believe me, I can't.

21 Q. And when was the first time you were thrown out of the kitchen?

22 A. It was the beginning, a month or two. At any rate, the beginning,

23 a month, two, three, I'm not 100 per cent sure. When I saw that inmates

24 were fainting from hunger, that's when I was thrown out. So that was the

25 beginning. A month, two, three, I'm not sure.

Page 3416

1 Q. Approximately how much time went by until you were returned to the

2 kitchen again?

3 A. Well, perhaps 15 or 20 days, whatever, and soon after that, I was

4 thrown out again.

5 Q. Who worked with you in the kitchen, which other prisoners?

6 A. The other prisoners who worked in the kitchen with me were

7 Hadzimesic, Hajric, nicknamed Zanga, Sudar, and Sudar, a younger man. I

8 can't remember his name.

9 Q. Did Taranin work with you?

10 A. Taranin, Taranin, perhaps during the second round, when I was

11 returned. But during the first round, those men were there. And the

12 second -- during my second tour there, Taranin was there too, so the

13 others were not returned. I was the only one who returned. So there were

14 three other men, not them.

15 Q. We just discussed the names of persons you mentioned yesterday as

16 being taken out and that they went missing afterwards. I went from one

17 person to another and you -- and I did my counting and you mentioned 27

18 persons. In the statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, you

19 mentioned 13 persons, less than half. The remaining half, the remaining

20 14 persons, until yesterday, until the examination in chief, you did not

21 mention them. Is it that you just remember these persons now?

22 A. Let me tell you --

23 Q. Is it necessary for me to read out all the names of all the

24 persons you mentioned during the examination in chief as persons who

25 disappeared and that you did not mention before in your statements to the

Page 3417

1 OTP?

2 A. Maybe.

3 Q. What jogged your memory so that nine years later you remember the

4 names of these persons and you don't even know the time of year, the

5 year? You say that you cannot remember any of that.

6 A. When I got out into civilisation, after two and a half years, I

7 say myself, for myself, that I even contemplated suicide after this hell.

8 As the years have been going by, my health condition has been improving,

9 if that means anything to you, this kind of answer.

10 Q. Does that mean that your memory is getting better too?

11 A. I never said that I was that smart. I always said that as far as

12 how smart I am is concerned, let others say that.

13 Q. I am asking you about your memory, not about how smart you are.

14 A. I'm talking about how smart I am. I never said for myself that

15 I'm very smart or that I'm very stupid.

16 Q. You mentioned a certain person by the last name of Isanovic. What

17 was his first name?

18 A. I mentioned two Isanovics. I know the first name of one of them,

19 Adnan; and the other one, I only know his last name, Isanovic. I was in

20 contact with his mother, who is in Sweden, and she came to Sarajevo, and I

21 was in contact with her as well; and I was also in contact with the mother

22 who is in Sarajevo, Adnan Isanovic's mother, that is.

23 Q. Tell me, sir: What happened to Adnan Isanovic, if you know?

24 A. Adnan Isanovic came to the camp all beaten up and covered with

25 blood. After that they took him to hospital, like to take care of his

Page 3418

1 wounds. And then in this hospital, this so-called extremist court martial

2 took him and Selimovic and another person out and executed them, killed

3 them, shot them dead.

4 Q. What about the other Isanovic, sir, the one whose name you do not

5 know?

6 A. The other Isanovic, he was beat up in the camp immediately, from

7 the very outset, he and a young man by the name of Cedic, and shortly

8 after that he was taken out and killed.

9 Q. So soon after you were detained?

10 A. Perhaps a month or two later. I cannot be very specific in terms

11 of days or whatever, but he was beaten, battered, taken away, and killed.

12 Q. Sir, when you were exchanged, was Mr. Zekovic with you at the

13 exchange?

14 A. When I was exchanged, Mr. Zekovic was not with me,

15 because -- because 12 of us were returned to Kula and we were exchanged

16 after that; actually, three or four days after all exchanges.

17 Q. Do you know when Mr. Zekovic was exchanged?

18 A. If we're talking about Ekrem Zekovic --

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. There are two Zekovics. One was at the beginning, a few months;

21 his brother, whereas he was exchanged at the end of all exchanges, on the

22 Bratstvo-Jedinstvo Bridge in Sarajevo. That is to say, if I was exchanged

23 on the 10th of October, he was perhaps -- well, I don't know. I can't

24 remember. A few days later. The only dates I remembered in my life was

25 when I was detained and when I was released, so then this was the 10th of

Page 3419

1 October or a few days before that.

2 Q. Did you leave the KP Dom in Foca together with Ekrem Zekovic on

3 the same day to go to be exchanged?

4 A. Yes, except that 12 of us were kept for a few days longer, whereas

5 they were released.

6 Q. When this exchange was carried out, were the representatives of

7 the military present, of the army?

8 A. No way. Only the representative of the International Red Cross.

9 The representatives of the army, no way.

10 Q. Was a person named Paprica present perhaps?

11 A. I can't remember. I remember that notorious miscreant only from

12 the camp, the one who was locked up in the Serb prison.

13 Q. If you remember him as notorious, how come you do not remember

14 whether he was involved in the same exchange?

15 A. The Paprica that I know as a notorious man was not with me during

16 the exchange. A high-ranking policeman was with me. We had to call him

17 an officer. I think that in that bus, Krnojelac's son was there too, two

18 or three others, and a driver.

19 Q. Did the driver wear a military uniform or a police uniform?

20 A. Nothing. Nothing. No such thing at that time. I think he was

21 wearing civilian clothes.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this may sound truly

23 incredible to you, but the Defence actually has no more questions.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Mr. Bakrac. I won't comment on that.

25 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 3420

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution has some more

2 questions.

3 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

4 Q. Witness, in relation to the fate of certain victims, you mentioned

5 that you saw them being taken -- when they were being taken, and you were

6 in the kitchen, and specifically you mentioned the caldron where you

7 were. Was it within the building or was this caldron in front of the

8 kitchen, outside?

9 A. The caldron was outside, because this caldron needed firewood,

10 lots of firewood that we put underneath it, so it was within the compound

11 but in front of the kitchen.

12 Q. And you were also asked who was working with you in the kitchen,

13 who of the detainees, and I would like to know: Did you ever work with

14 the cook Izet Skender, or do you know such a person?

15 A. Rasim, the one who was there, I remember him. And there were

16 three other men together with me. I worked there very briefly. They were

17 from the surrounding area, from localities there, but right now their

18 names escape me. I can only say that one of them -- one of them is from

19 Sukovac. I think that he was a legal man who worked at the hotel in

20 Foca. I can't remember his last name. He went missing and he was

21 killed. I can't remember his last name.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness. Witness, when the Defence counsel asked you

23 why you didn't mention certain victims in previous statements, I just want

24 to know: When names are put to you, like I did in your

25 examination-in-chief, does that help you to remember the fate of certain

Page 3421

1 people?

2 A. It helps me 100 per cent. When somebody puts their names to me,

3 that helps me.

4 Q. And do you know, besides those that we have discussed now very

5 detailed, do you know of other people that were taken away in the same

6 manner and disappeared that we did not discuss yet?

7 A. I know hundreds of young men who ended up the same way. Guards

8 would come and say --

9 Q. Witness, thank you. It was --

10 A. At any rate, I knew hundreds of young men.

11 Q. Witness, now a completely different question. Yesterday, when the

12 Defence counsel asked you about the hygienic conditions in the KP Dom, you

13 said, "They were excellent, what we did, that is." That was your exact

14 answer. And I would like to clarify this remark. Did you have showers in

15 the rooms?

16 A. No way. We did not have showers in rooms, but a year or two

17 later, we got this going. To tell you the truth, they didn't even know

18 how to maintain this. So when the International Red Cross came, with the

19 help of the International Red Cross, and given the fact that we were

20 begging for this, and we cleaned all of this ourselves and we paid a lot

21 of attention to hygiene, because otherwise we would have all been gone.

22 We would have succumbed to our hunger and the hygienic conditions and

23 everything. And we also beseeched the International Red Cross when they

24 came, once a month or every two months or every three months or whatever.

25 Q. In the first year of your detention, did you take showers

Page 3422

1 occasionally, and if so, in which periods? Which -- how often, how often

2 in what time periods?

3 A. Our showers, I mean this KP Dom was used for prisoners before the

4 war and there were lots of faucets. Some of them were working and others

5 were not working so we washed by these faucets. There were also some

6 people who had lice and then we washed these people several times, with

7 cold water of course, so that they could get rid of these lice. We paid

8 attention to hygiene as much as we could. Even if we were to die, we

9 wanted to be clean.

10 Q. And you said you washed with cold water. Was no hot water

11 available?

12 A. After that, again, a year went by and the other year went by and

13 then six months went by, so in this camp itself, the killings and the

14 beatings dwindled. We even got the heating working. There were

15 coal-fired heaters and then this water went to the bathrooms that existed

16 from before the war. This was the second year, the second six months,

17 something like that. I don't know the exact dates, something like that.

18 Q. How was the water supply in the first winter? Did you have water

19 to wash all the time?

20 A. Even if the water would freeze, we would somehow get it going.

21 There was cold water, yes.

22 Q. Did you get sanitary necessities such as soap, shampoo, razors,

23 toothbrushes? Did you get this from the administration or from the prison

24 staff?

25 A. The administration? No way. We were beseeching the International

Page 3423

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24

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Page 3424

1 Red Cross so they started giving this to us. And of course, we had to put

2 in a request with the KP Dom as well, but they started bringing this to us

3 as the years went by.

4 Q. Did you have change of clothes regularly?

5 A. I arrived in the KP Dom in the same clothes that I was wearing at

6 home, and that was it. New clothes? No way. However, the previous

7 detainees had left some of their clothes in the room so we used their

8 clothes. And towards the end of these two and a half years, the

9 International Red Cross gave us some kind of jackets and we left the place

10 wearing those jackets.

11 Q. Witness, now, another complex. You said that when you arrived in

12 the KP Dom, at the entrance, you were told that you would be interviewed

13 and stay for some days. Was this actually said to you or did you yourself

14 think that would happen?

15 A. No, no, no. All those who came in, because I've already said two

16 or three days, and they would say, "Oh, yes. We were told also two or

17 three days. Don't you worry, you will be here two or three days, and then

18 you will go home you will be free."

19 Q. Witness, we have to be very specific now. I would like to know

20 what you were told when you arrived there, just you. When you arrived at

21 the entrance, were you told something about what would happen?

22 A. My wife -- I've just remembered that my wife also wondered,

23 "What's this? What is this? How can it be?" "Well, you will be here

24 two or three days, just so that you are questioned, so that they can ask

25 their questions." I don't know what they had in mind. "Everything will

Page 3425

1 be fine, there will be no problem."

2 Q. Who said that? And if you know, say it. If you don't know, say

3 you don't know.

4 A. There was Milorad Krnojelac, not knowing but just to see him in

5 front of the entrance. I mean, I did not know what he was, but my wife

6 asked him, as a Serb, because Serbs were the ones who were detaining us,

7 and I said not those Serbs -- not those Serbs, but Serbs, and I can't say

8 it now, and I've said it several times in this court, and he also shrugged

9 his shoulders, "Oh, this is nothing. It will be over in no time at all,

10 two or three days." And I also heard the same thing from other people,

11 that they had been told the same thing.

12 Q. Witness, we have to be absolutely clear about this point. Did he

13 say that? I mean Mr. Krnojelac, did he say that to you or did someone

14 else say that to you? If you know, tell us.

15 A. Come, I can't say 100 per cent but I was there at the entrance, I

16 heard. He was at the entrance and Cancar was there. He was a policeman

17 in the KP Dom. He took down our names at the entrance. "Nothing, nothing

18 will happen, that will be it." That is what I heard. I can't 100 per

19 cent repeat.

20 Q. No, it's -- you are not asked to repeat 100 per cent what exactly

21 was said. You only are asked who said that, if you remember who said

22 that.

23 A. I think it was Krnojelac.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No further questions, Your Honour.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave -- I

Page 3426

1 apologise. The witness said that he -- who could not identify 100 per

2 cent who had said it, and what it says here is "repeat."

3 JUDGE HUNT: What do you say it should be?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think that the witness said, but he

5 can confirm it, that he could not identify 100 per cent, when the question

6 was, who said it.

7 JUDGE HUNT: No. The previous answer, "I can't say 100 per cent,

8 but I was there at the entrance." That's clear.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 52, line 10.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. The translation that came out was, "I can't 100

11 per cent repeat it," I think he said. And that's picked up by the next

12 question: "You are not being asked to repeat 100 per cent what exactly

13 was said. You are only being asked who said that." But you've got what

14 you will require.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence heard, because we speak

16 the same language, that the witness said that he could not identify 100

17 per cent. Not "repeat."

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's a matter of translation, I'm afraid. We

19 better get it cleared up from the witness.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.

21 Q. Witness, you said that Mr. Krnojelac was there and Mr. Cancar was

22 there. Are you sure about that?

23 A. Sure 100 per cent.

24 Q. And when you said -- when I asked you who said these words, like,

25 "You have to stay and you have to answer questions," I asked you who said

Page 3427

1 that. And what is your answer to this?

2 A. When you asked me who had said it, I said at the entrance and I

3 repeat it, as we were entering the camp, in front of the camp entrance, I

4 think it was my wife who addressed the person concerned because she knew

5 him, and I think, without looking any more, because I could see all the

6 ill-treatment in the vehicle and at the entrance, so I'm not sure 100 per

7 cent if that same person replied. But the reply came from that place, one

8 hundred per cent. And then when I entered the room, I asked her, "Well,

9 what was it?" Says she, "Well, we'll soon be off," and one knows who was

10 at the entrance and who was asked that question, why do I enter and how,

11 not knowing anything, just seeing a familiar face at the entrance.

12 Q. Witness, you said "this certain person." Who is the certain

13 person? I mean, you cannot leave it that way. You have to say the name?

14 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that what he has --

15 Just one moment, sir.

16 What he has suggested is he cannot be sure. He thought it was

17 somebody. He can't be sure. Now, on that basis, how much further can you

18 take it? That's what I was trying to say when Mr. Bakrac interrupted me.

19 He's got an answer in his favour. He cannot be sure. Well, that's the

20 end of it, as far as I can see. I don't know why we're spending all this

21 time on it.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, I beg you

23 to accept my apologies. Perhaps we were waiting for the interpretation or

24 perhaps I was trying to understand you in English, and I therefore rushed

25 in. But I think I'm entitled to one more question, because it would arise

Page 3428

1 from additional -- from redirect questions from my learned friend, and it

2 has to do with hygiene.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Before you do that, I've just been through the

4 transcript. The Prosecution asked no questions about hygiene in chief, at

5 all. At one stage the witness referred to the word "hygiene," but not in

6 any way describing what it was like. It was you who raised the issue in

7 cross-examination. The witness gave a very curious answer. In fact, I

8 wrote it down myself: Hygiene was excellent - or the hygiene conditions,

9 I think, were excellent - what we did, that is. Now, you left it there,

10 and having left it there, the Prosecution was entitled to ask him what he

11 meant. Now, if you had asked some questions then, as you were entitled

12 to, you may have got it sorted out, but you can't have another go after

13 re-examination. You raised it and left it, and the Prosecution has taken

14 it further. How much further, I'm not sure, frankly. I don't really

15 myself see that there's any additional evidence on the point at all except

16 about whether or not they had hot water or cold water, and they didn't

17 have showers until some time later, and as I understand it, that's not

18 really in dispute. So what do you say you should be entitled to test now

19 again?

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am aware that I

21 raised the issue, and that is why I did not object to the Prosecution

22 comments. But when we heard the reply that the conditions were excellent,

23 it almost overlapped with what the witness said in his statement to the

24 OTP. However, in redirect the Prosecution went a step further, and I

25 merely wanted to draw the attention of the witness to what he told the OTP

Page 3429

1 in one of his statements. It was when I asked him, that question was very

2 similar to the one that the OTP has asked, and I did not think there was

3 any need to waste any more time on this, because he repeated what had been

4 written down. But the redirect opened a broader range of these questions;

5 that is, the witness mentioned some details which were not mentioned

6 anywhere before.

7 JUDGE HUNT: If the witness had simply said the hygienic

8 conditions were excellent, I would agree entirely, but he added something,

9 and it was such an unusual answer that I wrote it down in case there was

10 no re-examination about it, because I was going to ask him what he meant:

11 "What we did, that is." Now, that qualified the answer which he had

12 given about the hygienic conditions being excellent. So he hasn't

13 followed what he said -- or what you say he said in the statement. I

14 haven't checked it. Now, that's where cross-examining counsel has the

15 right to say, "What do you mean by that?" But you didn't; you left it

16 there, with a very qualified answer, and the Prosecution was entitled to

17 say, "What did you mean?" Now, on that, I don't see why you should have a

18 right to now have another go. If that's what he said in his statement,

19 that may be so, but what he has actually now said in re-examination is not

20 in conflict with any of the other evidence, so far as I can recall. We've

21 got evidence from a number of witnesses about this question of hot water

22 and cold water and whether they had showers or not, and none of it was

23 ever disputed. If all you want to say is, "Well, that is different to

24 what you told the OTP," I think you've got enough of those, don't you?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the easiest

Page 3430

1 solution will be, if the OTP agrees, of course, to resolve the dilemma, to

2 admit into evidence the first statement given to the OTP, ID138 and 138A.

3 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

4 JUDGE HUNT: That's just the same as you having a further chance

5 to cross-examine. I'm afraid you'll have to do it all at once or not at

6 all. But as I said, have you not got enough conflicts between his

7 evidence and what he told the OTP? I don't see that you're prejudiced and

8 I don't see that we should break a fundamental rule of cross-examination.

9 You cross-examine once, unless something new is raised that you hadn't

10 dealt with in cross-examination. So your application is refused.

11 Is there anything further from the witness now?

12 Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now free to leave.

13 You should, however, wait while the blinds are lowered so that you will

14 not be seen by members of the public as you leave.

15 Now, whilst the other witness is coming, can we deal with those

16 matters that you were to give us after the week's break, Mr. Bakrac?

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The Defence tried

19 to go through all the transcripts, and in Witness 111 and Witness 182, we

20 found that we challenged the testimony that detainees were given little

21 food. But your question was to locate the place in the transcript, and

22 we, I believe, did that. That is, we did not find the place where it is

23 said that there was a difference in the quantity of food given to

24 detainees or not, but it had to do with the witness, when Mr. Vasic

25 cross-examined the witness about the food that had been thrown away.

Page 3431

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we've been through that, and that didn't raise

2 the issue. You certainly have raised an issue as to whether or not there

3 was enough food to go around, but there has been no dispute at any stage,

4 that we can find in the transcript, that the Muslim detainees received

5 less food than the others. Now, I think that that is probably the end of

6 it.

7 What about the photographs? You were going to produce some

8 photographs to the Prosecution so that if any witness is called by the

9 Prosecution from now on, they can be shown these photographs as to what

10 you can see from the top floor windows.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I have the

12 photographs in my briefcase. I simply thought I would talk to the OTP. I

13 must have misunderstood, and I apologise. I can show them to the OTP so

14 that they can go through those photographs. No request was made in this

15 regard, so that ...

16 JUDGE HUNT: What I had suggested to you was that you had an

17 obligation to put them to the witnesses, any witnesses who said that they

18 could see something from the top window, you had to show them these

19 photographs. And that the Prosecution may want to recall some of their

20 witnesses to deal with them. So if you would produce those to the OTP so

21 that we can get that matter out of the way, and if they want to recall any

22 witnesses whilst they're still in their case, they may do so.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I did understand

25 what you meant. But after we obtained those photographs, that is, since

Page 3432

1 the 12th of February, we did not have any witness testifying about that,

2 and that is why there was no need to show them to those witnesses. But we

3 shall place those photographs at the disposal of the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. That would be a very good idea. Thank you very

5 much.

6 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

7 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honours. This next witness is testifying

8 without protective measures.

9 JUDGE HUNT: What about the pseudonym?

10 MS. KUO: He has not asked for a pseudonym.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

12 MS. KUO: However, there is a name sheet with the name of a

13 different witness who does have protective measures, and I wish to have

14 that entered in evidence. It's before the witness at the moment.

15 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P434 and it will be under seal.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: And so that we can cross-reference things in the

18 various documents we've got, has this witness been known to date as

19 FWS-216?

20 MS. KUO: Yes, precisely.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

22 MS. KUO: I might also add that he's been referenced in the

23 indictment under initials EZ.

24 JUDGE HUNT: EZ.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Now, sir, would you make the solemn declaration in

Page 3433

1 the document which the usher is showing you.

2 WITNESS: EKREM ZEKOVIC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter].

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir.

7 Ms. Kuo.

8 Examined by Ms. Kuo:

9 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Could you please tell us your name.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please come closer to the

12 microphone.

13 A. Ekrem Zekovic.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, would you come closer to the microphone, and the

15 usher might also turn on the other microphone.

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Thank you.

18 MS. KUO:

19 Q. Mr. Zekovic, when were you born?

20 A. I was born on the 6th of December, 1950, in Foca.

21 Q. In 1992, where did you live?

22 A. I lived in Foca, Nurije Pozderca Street, in the centre.

23 Q. Were you married and did you have children?

24 A. Yes, I was married, and with two children.

25 Q. What kind of work did you do?

Page 3434

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Page 3435

1 A. 1992? I worked for Unis, which is a wire factory.

2 Q. What was your function? What kind of work did you specialise in?

3 A. I was a metal worker, dealing with grinding wheels and maintenance

4 of machinery, machine tools, and things of the sort.

5 Q. What ethnicity are you?

6 A. Muslim, a Bosniak.

7 Q. Mr. Zekovic, before you you see a sheet of paper that has been

8 entered as Exhibit P434. There is a name on it and also a pseudonym. If

9 you wish to refer to this person at any time, could you please not use his

10 name but use the pseudonym or his number?

11 Mr. Zekovic, when the war started in Foca in April of 1992, where

12 were you?

13 A. At home.

14 Q. Did you stay at home while the war lasted?

15 A. Yes, throughout, until I was taken away from home to the camp.

16 Q. Did you ever go to work during that time?

17 A. Yes. That morning, I did go to work. The war had already begun

18 but nobody -- nobody turned up except a couple of us, so I went back

19 home. After, I can't tell you, seven or ten days later, on the media or

20 rather Radio Foca, we were all called to report to our workplaces and so I

21 did, the next day, with a friend of mine, who is now gone, who was in the

22 camp, and we spent a couple of hours at work. Our boss then turned us

23 back. He told us to go home and not to come again until we were called

24 once again, something to that effect. This other friend who was with me,

25 he was a Muslim, and that day, Serbs stayed at work. Not all of them. I

Page 3436

1 don't mean that they all had turned up for work but there were about ten

2 or 15 of them.

3 Q. But in other words, only the Muslims were told to go home; is that

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you ever hear any public announcements during this time for

7 mobilisation?

8 A. Yes, very often.

9 Q. Was it directed toward Serbs, Muslims or the general population?

10 A. Serbs only via -- on the Radio Foca and the public address

11 system. That is a vehicle which drove with loudspeakers around the town.

12 Q. Do you remember what the mobilisation calls were specifically,

13 what was said?

14 A. Well, not exactly, not word for word, but all military conscripts

15 were being invited to report to the army command to be given their combat

16 assignments. And at the same time, rigorous -- everybody who failed to

17 report was threatened with rigorous sanctions. And it is quite clear that

18 it had nothing to do with us because we were forbidden to move around the

19 town. At the end of my street, there were Serbs bearing arms. My

20 neighbours, and they did not allow us to leave the room, let alone go and

21 report to the command.

22 Q. Did you hear any specific announcements restricting the movement

23 of Muslims?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. How was this communicated?

Page 3437

1 A. Radio Foca and those -- those Serbs who were my neighbours, they

2 transmitted the information to us that we were not to move around, that we

3 were not to visit any of our neighbours, and that we were not to receive

4 any visits. And shortly afterwards, our telephones were cut off.

5 Q. Were the movements of Muslims restricted throughout Foca or only

6 in certain sections?

7 A. In the area of Foca.

8 Q. Did you need a permit to move around? Were you allowed to move

9 around if you had a permit or if you were accompanied by a Serb?

10 A. Yes. One needed a permit, or rather one could move only with an

11 escort of a kind. I went to the municipal hall with a female neighbour of

12 mine to apply for this pass, for these papers to move about, and when they

13 asked me where I wanted to go, they said that for the centre in the strict

14 sense of the word, all I needed was some escort.

15 Q. Were you ever stopped on the street from moving around without

16 permission?

17 A. Well, I -- it was a stroke of luck, they did not recognise me but,

18 they did my brother.

19 Q. What happened to your brother?

20 A. My brother once went out with a neighbour, a Serb, and was on his

21 way to visit us, and he lived some 300 or 400 metres away from us, maybe

22 500 metres, and he came to us with that neighbour. They stayed for a

23 while, and he then was off home, intending to go through the centre of the

24 town, and there he was intercepted by Montenegrins, volunteers who had

25 come from Montenegro, and took both of them to the KP Dom. That Serb

Page 3438

1 received a few slaps in his face, and told not to move around, socialise

2 with Muslims any longer, and my brother was kept in the camp.

3 Q. When was your brothers arrested, do you remember?

4 A. I don't know the exact date. It was sometime in mid-April.

5 Q. How long was your brother kept at KP Dom?

6 A. I wouldn't know it to a day but about two, two and a half months.

7 Q. Could you tell us your brother's name?

8 A. Enes Zekovic.

9 Q. Were you ever told to surrender a weapon during this time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who told you to surrender weapons?

12 A. My neighbours.

13 Q. What did they tell you?

14 A. Indirectly, they said they knew who had any weapons and it would

15 be better for us to turn them over, because they were possessed of all the

16 implementation from the police. And I had a pistol, a revolver, I had a

17 permit for it, all the papers. So I went to my neighbour, Davidovic, to

18 his home, and I carried the pistol and all the bullets and left them

19 there.

20 Q. Was your house, or rather apartment, searched during this time?

21 A. Oh, yes, yes, very often during that period of time. I don't know

22 how many times, but very many times.

23 Q. Who searched your apartment?

24 A. Why, those volunteers who had come from Serbia and together with

25 those local Serbs in my street. It also happened after I went to the

Page 3439

1 camp.

2 Q. Were Muslims rounded up in the street at this time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When and how?

5 A. Well, one day, those volunteers broke into our street from all

6 sides and ordered us all to come out of our houses, from our flats, and

7 they rounded us up in one place, in the cellar of my house, and at the

8 other end of the street was another group of people who lived there at the

9 end of the street.

10 Q. Did they do anything to you when you were rounded up?

11 A. Yes. They wanted detailed information about who was still there,

12 who had left. And about a man, a neighbour of mine, they said, "Has he

13 left?" And I looked around and he wasn't there with us. And then they

14 pointed a weapon at me and ordered me to go into his flat. They were

15 afraid that he might fire from there or, I don't know, and with us in the

16 group was also a woman, a neighbour, who was a Serb, and another Serb

17 neighbour of ours recognised her and told her, "Be off home. What are you

18 doing here? You don't belong here."

19 Q. And was anything further done to the Muslims who were gathered in

20 those two groups that day?

21 A. There was another neighbour of mine, he was sick. I think he had

22 some mental problem. He had difficulty moving around. And he simply was

23 quite lost there and he was extended first aid. And those volunteers or

24 whatever who had come from Serbia thought that he was pretending. They

25 wanted to kill him but they did not, not then.

Page 3440

1 Q. You mentioned volunteers from Serbia. Could you tell us what they

2 were wearing? Were they wearing uniforms or civilian clothes?

3 A. They were wearing uniforms, camouflage uniforms. They had arm

4 bands saying the Serb Guard.

5 Q. Do you know in what capacity they were acting? Whether they had

6 authority from the town authorities?

7 A. Later, a Serb who had come from Serbia -- actually, it so happened

8 he saw my wife and children and they seemed to be very similar to his

9 sister and her children, and he came every day and he said that the local

10 Serbs had called them in, and that in Foca, they were told that 500 Serbs

11 had been slaughtered and then when they arrived they realised that the

12 situation was the other way around and this soldier came every day. And

13 he explicitly threatened our neighbours, saying that they mustn't do a

14 thing to us, and at my wife's request to try to intervene, in order to

15 have me released, he said, "I'll try. I'll check. If anybody suspects

16 him of anything or charges him with something, there is nothing that can

17 be done. And, if not, when he will be released, God knows." Just let me

18 finish this. As he was leaving from there, I don't know where they were

19 going after that, he said, "I'm leaving you and may God help you. And

20 knowing what these people of yours are like, may God help you and may all

21 end well."

22 Q. Mr. Zekovic, when were you arrested?

23 A. I was arrested in the morning, on the 20th of May, 1992 of course.

24 Q. Who arrested you?

25 A. A kind of military police came. That's what they call themselves.

Page 3441

1 Q. Did you know them?

2 A. I knew one of them. I knew one of them well and I knew another

3 one just by sight.

4 Q. Could you tell us their names?

5 A. Zoran Vukovic and the taxi driver Jegdic. My wife knows him very

6 well because he brought his children to the children's clinic where she

7 had worked.

8 Q. Where did they arrest you?

9 A. At home. That morning it was said that children were allegedly

10 supposed to go to school, that some kind of normal life would continue.

11 My wife took the children to school in the morning. She asked whether we

12 would have coffee before she would take the children to school or

13 afterwards, and I said, "You go and take the children to school and I'll

14 take a bath and then we'll have coffee." She came back. I had had a

15 bath, and then these policemen came and told me to go out. I got out, and

16 my hair was still wet and I still even had a towel. They said it was

17 necessary for me to go to the KP Dom to make a statement. And then I

18 said, "Well, no problem, but can I go back home and get my cigarettes?"

19 And they said, "It's not necessary. You're just going to spend a few

20 hours there. There's no problem." My mother came out there in front of

21 the house too, and she gave me a cap because my hair was wet.

22 Q. Where did they take you?

23 A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you very well. Oh, where they took me.

24 They took us to the KP Dom in a car.

25 Q. When you arrived at KP Dom, where were you taken?

Page 3442

1 A. When we arrived at the KP Dom, they took us into an area. I don't

2 know what it's called really. At the entrance to the KP Dom they searched

3 us.

4 Q. And you said -- you used the plural, "us." Who else was taken

5 with you to the KP Dom?

6 A. There were four more neighbours of mine. Is it necessary for me

7 to give their names?

8 Q. If you know them, please give us their names, if you know their

9 names still.

10 A. Yes. Hasan Lojo was with me, Dzenan Karabegovic. He had already

11 been arrested once before that and he was in the camp at Livade, but then

12 he was released. Then who else was brought with me? Krso. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted).

15 Q. After you were searched at the KP Dom, where were you taken?

16 A. We were taken to Room 18.

17 Q. How long did you stay in Room 18?

18 A. I stayed in Room 18 perhaps for about two and a half months.

19 Afterwards, a working room was established. All of us who went out to

20 work were separated and put into one room, because it was easier for the

21 guards that way to take us to work.

22 Q. Do you remember what number that room was?

23 A. Room 16. That is below Room 18.

24 Q. And how long were you in Room 16?

25 A. I don't know these details very well. We were there for a while.

Page 3443

1 I don't know. And then these so-called exchanges started, intensively, so

2 in the summer of 1992, July, August, September. The number of people in

3 camp went down and we were somehow concentrated in less rooms.

4 Q. Let's talk about the work group that you mentioned. What kind of

5 work did you do as part of this group?

6 A. I was in the so-called metal plant, which was within the KP Dom

7 before the war as well. We did all sorts of things. We repaired cars,

8 then we did locksmiths' jobs, and very often we went all over town,

9 wherever something was supposed to be done: at the hospital, at the

10 bakery, in Maglic. I even went to Unis, my former company. We went to

11 quite a few places: the hotel, et cetera.

12 Q. What was the time period when you worked in the metal workshop?

13 A. That was from mid-July, something like that - I don't know

14 exactly - the 15th, the 10th of July, until I escaped from the camp, or

15 rather, until I tried to escape from the camp.

16 Q. When was that?

17 A. When I tried to escape, you mean?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. That was on the 8th of July, 1993.

20 Q. And where was the next place that you worked after the metal

21 workshop?

22 A. The furniture factory within the KP Dom, within the KP Dom

23 compound. That's where I worked, for about three, three and a half

24 months, something like that, until mid-December 1993.

25 Q. And did you work any place after that?

Page 3444

1 A. Yes. Yes. I worked for six months in the brown coal mine at

2 Miljevina.

3 Q. Now, let's talk about the metal workshop. When you worked there,

4 who was your supervisor?

5 A. The supervisor of the metal workshop was Relja Golijanin.

6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, in Exhibit P3, which is the employee list,

7 this is listed as number 40.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MS. KUO:

10 Q. Do you know who was his boss, who was above him in the KP Dom

11 structure?

12 A. The warden of the KP Dom.

13 Q. Who was that?

14 A. Milorad Krnojelac.

15 Q. How did you know that he was the warden?

16 A. Of course I did. I knew that as soon as I got detained. The

17 people who had been detained before me knew that. Also later this was

18 corroborated. I also had direct contacts with him within the metal

19 workshop, and everybody addressed him as "Mr. Warden."

20 Q. What kind of contact did you have with him in the metal workshop?

21 A. In the summer of 1992 we were supposed to do some locksmiths' jobs

22 at his house. We were making a staircase and some railing, and then he

23 would come to see us at the metal workshop and he had contact with us.

24 Q. Did he speak to you inside the metal workshop?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3445

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Page 3446

1 Q. What did he say?

2 A. Once we were doing something, he came and he gave us some kind of

3 new instructions. One of the workers who was working with me - he was

4 from Jelec - said, "Relja told us to do something different." And he

5 said, "You just do it the way I told you to do it and tell him that Micko

6 said so."

7 Q. And while he gave this instruction, were you or the other worker

8 working on the metal staircase for his house?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you ever actually go to his house?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When was that?

13 A. Well, that was in the summer of 1992. I don't know the exact date

14 now. It was in August, possibly the beginning of September, something

15 like that. I went two or three times.

16 Q. Could you tell us the condition of Mr. Krnojelac's house when you

17 saw it?

18 A. Burned.

19 Q. And what were you supposed to do there?

20 A. We were supposed to make a staircase that would lead from the

21 second floor to the attic, and also some kind of railing. I don't know.

22 Q. How many detainees went?

23 A. Two or three of us went. It depended. Usually three. I went

24 three times.

25 Q. During those three times, did you see Mr. Krnojelac there?

Page 3447

1 A. Yes. He stopped by once.

2 Q. What kind of contact did you have with him? Did he say anything?

3 A. Well, he came to see how things were going. I don't know. Talked

4 to the guards. There was a guard with us invariably, of course.

5 Q. So would you say it was obvious that you were detainees from the

6 KP Dom who were there to work?

7 A. Absolutely.

8 Q. Do you recall the conversation that Mr. Krnojelac had with the

9 guard?

10 A. Not really, not really, what they discussed, no.

11 Q. Were members of Mr. Krnojelac's family there?

12 A. I didn't see any. I don't know. Perhaps his son came. There

13 were some people who came, who passed by.

14 Q. While you worked at Mr. Krnojelac's house on the three occasions

15 or so, were you treated correctly or mistreated by Mr. Krnojelac or

16 members of his family?

17 A. We were not mistreated.

18 Q. During the time -- you said you were guarded when you went to his

19 house. Was there a time when you were able to make contact with somebody

20 in the -- let's say the outside world?

21 A. Of course. There was always a guard with us when we worked at the

22 metal workshop and when we went outside. When I went the second time, I

23 managed to establish contact with a woman who lived there in the

24 neighbouring house. I went to take a bottle of water. And I asked her to

25 call my family at Pod Musalom, where I had lived. She tried to use the

Page 3448

1 phone but, of course, the phones were disconnected. And that woman

2 walked. She went to my house on foot and she contacted my wife. She

3 called my wife to come.

4 And my wife came about an hour later with my aunt, because my

5 uncle was also detained at the KP Dom, at the camp. She came in front of

6 the house. I saw her as she was coming, and I went down, so we met in

7 front of the house. She brought some things for me, some small things and

8 some food, and also my aunt did.

9 At that moment, Relja came. The guard was on the other side of

10 the house so he didn't see this, and he didn't prevent it from happening.

11 However, Relja started yelling and saying that this was strictly forbidden

12 to have any kind of contacts or visits. And he drove them away

13 immediately, and I said, "Relja, for goodness sakes, why? I'm not a

14 criminal or something like that." And he said, "Those are our orders, and

15 that's it. There is no debating this." My wife went away immediately,

16 and my aunt did too.

17 Q. Were you allowed to take the things they brought for you?

18 A. The things remained. There were some socks there, some underwear,

19 and a bit of food. And a pack of cigarettes, yes.

20 Q. Did you ever see the warden, Mr. Krnojelac, at any other work site

21 outside the KP Dom when you were taken out?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was there a time when you went to fix the door of a restaurant

24 just outside the KP Dom?

25 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes. That's right.

Page 3449

1 Q. To clarify, was that restaurant a part of KP Dom?

2 A. Yes, yes. It was part of the KP Dom but it was outside the KP Dom

3 compound.

4 Q. What was it being used for?

5 A. Before the war, that restaurant was used as a restaurant for

6 delivering meals to the staff of the KP Dom and that's where they came for

7 coffee and things like that. And when prisoners received visitors, that's

8 where they met, because they also had visitation rooms upstairs. That is

9 to say, where prisoners could meet their family members.

10 Q. And during the -- let's say during the war, do you know if anybody

11 was living there, or being housed there?

12 A. Yes. At that time, the members of the paramilitary units were

13 there, those who had come from Serbia. They were called the White Eagles.

14 Q. Do you know what part specifically they were in?

15 A. They were upstairs, on the upper floor of that restaurant. That's

16 where there were rooms that could be used as bedrooms. That's where they

17 stayed.

18 Q. Why were you taken to the restaurant?

19 A. During the restaurant -- during the night, that restaurant was

20 broken into. The door had been broken and Relja said that I should go

21 there and take whatever was needed in order to close this, seal it off

22 completely. I went with Jovo, nicknamed Futa, Jovo Dzokic, a guard. As

23 we were going towards that restaurant, he said, "Zeka, watch out, there is

24 some kind of soldiers here," whatever he said, "and I'm sure that they are

25 going to provoke you and abuse you, but you try to remain calm and just

Page 3450

1 live through it and keep quiet."

2 Q. Did soldiers in fact try to provoke you?

3 A. Yes, yes. We had already finished working when they noticed me,

4 and they knew immediately who I was since I was being escorted by a guard,

5 and they started mistreating me in different ways. At that moment, the

6 warden came by. I don't know whether he was going to town or coming from

7 town. But I heard him telling them to go away. This guard, who was with

8 me, did not react at all, because it was obvious that he was afraid of

9 people like that too.

10 Q. Afraid of people like what?

11 A. Well, these paramilitary units that had come from Serbia.

12 Everybody was afraid of them, Relja Golijanin in particular.

13 Q. When you saw the warden -- and I assume that's Mr. Krnojelac,

14 right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did he seem to be afraid of the paramilitaries?

17 A. No, no. He simply acted with authority and they went away. There

18 was no problem because they knew who he was. Whether they knew actually,

19 I don't know.

20 Q. In what way did he act with authority? Can you describe it? It

21 may be difficult to describe. Did he say or act in a particular way?

22 A. Well, it's hard. It's hard to describe that, but one could notice

23 it and see it from the way he acted, and then also by virtue of the fact

24 that they went away and that all of it went by without any problems

25 whatsoever. That shows that they respected him.

Page 3451

1 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac inside the KP Dom? You described

2 the metal workshop but other than the contact there, did you see him in

3 other places within the KP Dom?

4 A. Very often, very often, especially during the first months.

5 Q. What did you see him doing?

6 A. Well, usually they would go for breakfast or for a snack, I don't

7 know, to a part of the restaurant that was within the compound of the

8 camp, or rather the previous prison. And then also several times, related

9 to other things, he came in, either on his own or with other people.

10 Q. Did you see him during the daytime?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you see him during the night-time?

13 A. Come into the compound during the night? That was in the

14 afternoon. That was in the evening. I would often see him through the

15 window of his office.

16 Q. And where was his office?

17 A. His office was on the second floor of the old wing of the

18 administration building.

19 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

20 witness shown Exhibit P6/3.

21 Q. Witness, you've said that it was the second floor of the

22 administration building. Could you show us where it is on this diagram,

23 if you can?

24 A. Yes. Yes. It's a bit the other way. Yes, this is the entrance,

25 this is the old wing of the building, this is the new wing of the

Page 3452

1 building. On the second floor of this building here, that's where it

2 was. My Room 18 was over here on the second floor. So from the window of

3 this room, I could see the windows of his office, there.

4 MS. KUO: The record should reflect that the witness has pointed

5 out as the office he's referring to what other witnesses have already

6 identified as the warden's office.

7 JUDGE HUNT: But there may be an argument later, and it had better

8 be sorted out now. When he first described where was his office, he said

9 his office was on the second floor of the old wing of the administration

10 building. He's now described this as the new section of it. We don't

11 anywhere else have, I think, a distinction drawn between old and new wings

12 of the administration building. Clearly you're right - he did point to

13 the area where a number of other witnesses have said they had seen

14 Mr. Krnojelac - but I don't want there to be some problem about this

15 description of old and new.

16 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Zekovic, you used the words "old" and "new" parts of the

18 administration building. Could you just explain to us, by showing us,

19 which is the new part and which is the old part, and just be a little bit

20 clearer about that? If you look at the diagram, the part to the left of

21 the entrance, is that the old or the new part?

22 A. Yes. This is the old part of the building. This is the new part

23 of the administration building. This is the entrance. This is where the

24 entrance office is, on the left-hand side. This is the entrance into the

25 compound of the prison. This is the metal gate. In the old part of the

Page 3453

1 administration building, on this right side, facing the street, there was

2 a long hall leading all the way to the end of the building, and then there

3 was a staircase that went upstairs. Because I came to his office, or

4 rather, the office of his secretary. I had to do something about the

5 furnace. This was a furnace that was used for heating.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I think that that's raised yet another

7 problem, because he said facing the street or the road on the right-hand

8 side. But certainly when he started to show us on the map, what we see on

9 the left-hand side of the entrance he described as the new part of the

10 building, and what is on the right-hand side of the entrance is the old

11 part of the building. Now, if we can all agree upon that, it will

12 probably solve all of our problems that were raised earlier, but there was

13 just that one reference to facing the street from -- I think it was on the

14 right-hand side. Facing from the street it's on the right-hand side. I

15 don't know whether he is left-handed, but I have discovered that

16 left-handed people quite often mix the two of them up. I'm married to

17 one; that's why I can say that from a matter of authority.

18 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I think -- if the Court wishes to have more

19 clarification, I think the fact that he's indicated on the diagram - and

20 that's the purpose for the diagrams, is to make these things absolutely

21 clear - if it's clear to the Court, we're happy with the record.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I'm satisfied. Mr. Bakrac, you would agree

23 that what he was pointing out was in fact to the right side of the

24 entrance and on the second floor?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm not left-handed, but

Page 3454

1 I would agree that he did point out what you had noticed.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, that might be a convenient time,

3 Ms. Kuo. We've had the interpreters and the court reporters working for

4 more than an hour and a half. We'll adjourn now until 2.30.

5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 3455

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. Mr. Zekovic, before the lunch break, you told us that you saw the

5 warden, Mr. Krnojelac, in his office in the afternoon or evening. Could

6 you tell us what time approximately it was when you saw him?

7 A. Well, it happened several times, several times, and the intervals

8 were not regular. Day or two in the morning, then late in the evening.

9 But I should like, Your Honours, to go back to a detail about what we were

10 talking before the break, because there was some question about right and

11 left. I know the distribution of the layout of all the rooms perfectly

12 well, and I'd like to explain that, and I should like to comment that this

13 drawing was very poorly done. Had I known that you needed it, I would

14 have done something better, but I think if you want to use it officially,

15 you should have some more precise drawings. I am perfectly clear about

16 where every room was. Now there was some doubt right or left. I don't

17 know what you meant by this. But the windows of the warden's room faced

18 the inside, the yard of the compound, and they were on the second floor.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zekovic. I think that does clarify things. When

20 you said you saw him sometimes late into the evening, how late was it?

21 Could you say when the latest was that you saw him there?

22 A. Well, very late into the night, late into the night at times,

23 until midnight or so.

24 Q. Could you actually see Mr. Krnojelac inside his office or was

25 there somebody in the office?

Page 3456

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Page 3457

1 A. Well, it depends on whether the windows were open and whether

2 curtains were drawn or not. At times I would see him. At times I saw

3 also Savo Todovic and Mitar Rasevic and those other guards, and at times,

4 all you could see would be outlines.

5 Q. When you could see Mr. Krnojelac in the office, what was he

6 doing?

7 A. Well, he would be talking with somebody or -- and very often

8 sitting at his desk. I couldn't see that much. I could see more his

9 secretary's room. I saw that one better. And he would have to pass

10 through it.

11 Q. Could you see people coming in and out of his office as well?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you also see him working during the weekends or did you see

14 Mr. Krnojelac in the KP Dom on the weekends?

15 A. Yes, from time to time, yes, he would come. Like the others, Savo

16 Todovic and Mitar Rasevic.

17 Q. And you mentioned seeing Mr. Krnojelac inside the office with

18 Todovic and Rasevic on occasion. Did you see him either inside or --

19 inside his office or anywhere else, consulting, Mr. Krnojelac, Mr. Todovic

20 and Mr. Rasevic, consulting about lists?

21 A. I could not see that. I could not see whether they were having

22 some consultations. I could not hear them. It is indubitable that I used

23 to see him, but the details, what they talked about, what they were

24 consulting each other about, that was impossible, impossible to see or

25 hear from my window. On the other hand, we heard many other things.

Page 3458

1 Q. Did you hear how Mr. Krnojelac got his position as warden?

2 A. Yes, yes, I did hear that.

3 Q. Who told you?

4 A. His brother told me.

5 Q. What was his brother's name?

6 A. His name is Mr. Arso Krnojelac and he used to work for the KP Dom

7 as a driver before the war.

8 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Arsenije Krnojelac is listed in Exhibit P3

9 at number 92.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

11 MS. KUO:

12 Q. How did you have occasion to speak with him?

13 A. That conversation that I just mentioned, I cannot give you the

14 exact date, but it was late in the autumn of 1992, in front of the

15 mechanical shop. We were talking about the situation in general, and then

16 I asked him specifically what is the situation, or rather, did he have any

17 information about villages around, where they came from, because my mother

18 was from a neighbouring village. And he told me how, in the early days of

19 the war, and that was in the summer -- rather, spring 1992, and that he

20 tried to intercede, that he tried to help, to save the Muslims who lived

21 up there. And then he said, and quite sadly, "And who needed all this?

22 Why was all this done? My brother," and these are his words, "My brother,

23 an intellectual - let me tell you, an asshole, an idiot - he accepted this

24 post from the SDS, and people will be called to account for all that is

25 happening here."

Page 3459

1 Q. How did he appear, Arso Krnojelac, when he was saying this? What

2 was his demeanour?

3 A. Mr. Arso was very emotional. One could see that he was very

4 emotional. He was almost tearful when he said that. Because there were

5 people who were sober, who could think right, and knew that one would have

6 to be called to account for that. But the majority, and Mr. Milorad

7 Krnojelac is one of them, and the majority of the staff and guards, they

8 thought that nobody would ever ask any questions, let alone be called to

9 account for all that was done. But later on, as the time went by, many

10 people began to change their attitudes and their way of thinking, and they

11 all tried, they tried to say that, well, they were not to blame, that they

12 had to do it. It was always somebody else who had done it.

13 Q. Did Mr. Arso Krnojelac have a function in the KP Dom when you were

14 there? You said he was a driver before the war. Was he also a driver

15 while you were detained?

16 A. Yes. A plain driver, a normal man, without any authority, any ...

17 We never heard a bad word from him.

18 Q. Did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac with high-level political

19 people inside the KP Dom?

20 A. Oftentimes, in front of the KP Dom, Ivanovic - I can't remember

21 his name - yes, Boro Ivanovic, he came often to the KP Dom, and we knew

22 and it was confirmed later that the command, the military command, had

23 made him responsible for the treatment of us, the Muslims, in the camp.

24 And there were also others who would be in front of the KP Dom or who

25 would come inside the KP Dom, people from the SDS, or rather the military

Page 3460

1 structures and authorities. Once I even saw Vojislav Maksimovic there.

2 Q. Who was Maksimovic?

3 A. Vojislav Maksimovic, he taught literature at the University of

4 Sarajevo. He was born in Ustikolina, one of the leaders and founders of

5 the SDS. Or rather, alongside Velibor Ostojic, Petko Cancar and those

6 others, he was one of the founders of the SDS; and that is, he was a

7 member of the Crisis Staff.

8 Q. Did you see Milorad Krnojelac with Mr. Maksimovic inside the KP

9 Dom?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What were they doing?

12 A. Talked. What about, I could not hear that, because when I worked

13 in the metal shop, I could see many things happening in front of the KP

14 Dom's entrance, and that is some 20 to 30 metres away.

15 Q. Did you ever see Miro Stanic at the KP Dom?

16 A. Yes. He also came on a couple of occasions. I knew that man from

17 before the war.

18 Q. What was his function?

19 A. He was also a member of the Crisis Staff. I wouldn't know more

20 about it.

21 Q. Did you see Miro Stanic with Milorad Krnojelac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What did you see them doing?

24 A. Well, also I saw them talking; and the details, of course, I could

25 not overhear, because I was not so close.

Page 3461

1 Q. Mr. Zekovic, you mentioned Boro Ivanovic and you stated that he

2 was put in charge by the military command of the detainees. Can you

3 explain what you meant by that? How do you know what authority he had?

4 A. In different ways. By eavesdropping, by then analysing the

5 collected information is how we came to those conclusions, but direct

6 information as regards Boro Ivanovic, I learned about him after I was

7 returned to the camp, after my attempt to escape, in my direct

8 conversation with him. Do you want me to tell you what he said to me on

9 that occasion?

10 Q. Well, we will get to that when we discuss your attempted escape.

11 Do you know what -- did Boro Ivanovic have any authority over Milorad

12 Krnojelac? Do you know that?

13 A. I think so, yes, must have.

14 Q. And on what do you base that conclusion?

15 A. He was a member of that military Crisis Staff.

16 Q. Okay. When you discussed being able to overhear certain things

17 being discussed at the KP Dom, could you tell us where you were able to

18 overhear guards speaking or other prison staff? Were there specific

19 locations where you could overhear things?

20 A. Yes, there were, two places where we heard most of the things that

21 we heard directly. One of those places is at the beginning of the old

22 wing of the building, on the ground floor next to the main gate where we

23 waited in the morning to be called out for work. And there was a kind of

24 a coffee shop there where all the staff of the KP Dom would gather before

25 the working hours to have coffee.

Page 3462

1 And the second place was within the metal shop, or to be more

2 precise, in the lathe shop. There was a window there and it overlooked

3 the whole area of that metal shop, machine shop, from which, before the

4 war, the work of prisoners was supervised. And at times, we would steal

5 up to that window, gather there, and eavesdrop on the information, because

6 they gathered there, they listened to the radio or talked.

7 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you

8 shown Exhibit P6/1 and this will show the ground floor of the

9 administrative building.

10 Q. Could you show us on the exhibit where it was that -- the first

11 place where you were able to eavesdrop? You discussed gathering and you

12 discussed a place where the staff could drink coffee. Could you show us

13 where that is?

14 A. Yes. It was here, here. Our windows looked out and they were

15 about 70 -- 90 centimetres high, I mean above the ground.

16 Q. And the detainees who were being taken out to work would line up

17 outside that room, right?

18 A. Yes. We waited in front of this entrance here. There was a

19 small, low wall of 30 metres -- 30 centimetres high, and we stood by that

20 or usually we were by the door.

21 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the witness has indicated the room that is

22 directly to the right of the entrance to the KP Dom, which on the exhibit

23 is marked as an office, and the place where they gathered is more or less

24 inside the courtyard near where other witnesses have indicated there was

25 this metal gate, and also the wall is the wall which is by building --

Page 3463

1 detainee building number 1.

2 JUDGE HUNT: And it's on the ground floor.

3 MS. KUO: Yes. Thank you.

4 Q. From that particular location where you've just pointed out to us,

5 what kind of conversations were you able to hear? Could you give us an

6 example of what things you heard discussed?

7 A. Well, they discussed everything in general, the situation then,

8 some of their errands, duties. In the morning they would comment on what

9 had happened, on what -- if there had been any excesses, who had been

10 brought in. On a couple of occasions I heard, "Squeeze should be put on

11 him. He should be forced in some way." That was in the beginning when

12 people were being -- still being taken for interrogation. So that was

13 summer 1992 or -- specifically on one occasion, I heard it perfectly

14 clearly when a driver, and I do not know which one exactly but he had some

15 trouble with his car on the way between -- from Montenegro to Serbia, he

16 had some trouble with the fuel, and then they said -- well, I cannot

17 repeat their words, I cannot tell you who it was who said that, but they

18 said, "It's those workers," that is we, the detainees in the mechanics

19 shop; we were to blame for it. We sabotaged the thing and we should be

20 punished for that. However, one of those drivers, and I'm not 100 per

21 cent sure who that was, I think it was Drakul, he said, "No, nobody is to

22 blame for it, and it's not those workers who are responsible for it. The

23 problem was with the fuel filter, because that was clogged."

24 Then once again -- I apologise, Your Honours. On another occasion

25 I overheard, and I think it was the second or the third time, that the

Page 3464

1 store room had been burgled and that was in the immediate vicinity of the

2 restaurant that we talked about, and I heard their comments in the morning

3 that somebody had burgled it during the night. And one of them said,

4 "Well, there was nothing to steal from there because the Muslims had

5 taken it all away." And I heard it perfectly clearly but then at that

6 time there were no Muslims in the town so there was no way that a Muslim

7 could have done that. And I heard then Mr. Mitar Rasevic say, "That's not

8 true. It was not the Muslims. When we arrived in the KP Dom all the

9 locks were all right. Only Serbs could have done it." And then the noise

10 grew and then somebody said, "Well, perhaps, yes, some Serbs."

11 I and a friend of mine, with whom I worked, he is FWS-210,

12 afterwards, we went there, and again made a new padlock, had to weld, had

13 to weld it.

14 Q. You mentioned Mr. Rasevic and you recognised his voice. Did you

15 recognise the voices of any other people participating -- not necessarily

16 in that conversation but in other conversations from that room?

17 A. Yes, very often one would hear Todovic's voice, the warden's

18 voice, and all the other guards, because we knew them all. We knew all

19 their voices. We knew them by their voices. We knew when it was Burilo

20 speaking or Obrenovic. We heard them, and they talked about lots of

21 things.

22 Q. You mentioned that many of these discussions happened in the

23 morning. Were there discussions about what happened the previous night?

24 A. Yes. Yes, very often.

25 Q. And we'll get to this point in a moment, but were there

Page 3465

1 discussions about detainees being beaten? For instance, if they were

2 beaten at night, were there discussions in the morning about what had

3 happened?

4 A. Yes, now and then; not always. And I didn't always have an -- I

5 couldn't always come close, because at times there were guards within the

6 inside of the compound, so it was too risky to come close to the window,

7 you know. But yes, there were conversations about that too, yes.

8 Q. Were these formal briefings in that room or were they more like

9 social conversations where people are sitting around drinking coffee?

10 Could you tell by the nature of the conversation?

11 A. Well, I cannot really claim that it was official, because it was

12 in passing and like that, even though some discussing about how to assign

13 work and what duties, what errands. Yes, it did happen there, but I

14 cannot really affirm that that was the only place, that that coffee shop

15 was the place where they discussed and planned and held their business

16 meetings.

17 Q. How often did you hear the warden in that room, or in fact did you

18 ever see him in that room when these discussions were taking place?

19 A. Well, you see, we could not see anyone, because windows were

20 painted white, so that we could only overhear them. And it wasn't always

21 the warden and it wasn't always Rasevic and it was always Krnojelac -- I

22 mean, Todovic. No. There were days when we wouldn't hear the warden's

23 voice, when we wouldn't hear Rasevic's voice, and so on.

24 Q. And you also mentioned the place -- the window in the workshop

25 area where you were able to overhear. Were there any specific

Page 3466

1 conversations that you overheard there that you recall?

2 A. The metal shop, yes. Once I heard Relja, who was the foreman of

3 the metal shop. He was absent that day. Now, his offices consisted of

4 two rooms, actually, and they met there and drank and talked about all

5 sorts of things. And on one occasion - I heard it very clearly - the

6 discussion was general, about the situation, but in no time at all they

7 moved on to talk about plunder. And I concluded from that discussion that

8 they were talking about a place called Josanica, which is downstream from

9 Foca, or rather, to the north.

10 Some were saying -- one was saying about how he knew that his

11 neighbours had all sorts of things, that we were very well off, but they

12 didn't know that our houses were so full. And another one said, "We

13 should have struck before this, but there was nothing to live on."

14 Presumably they couldn't make their ends meet. And another one, the one

15 who was -- who presumably always had information and he somehow stood out

16 as a man who was in the know, a man who was well informed, he said, "Well,

17 you know, my men, it wasn't all that easy, pick up a rifle and strike.

18 One had to carry out all the preparations properly, and the preparations

19 began when Tito died, because one had to do it in the police, in the

20 media, in the politics. One had really to assign, select people, a proper

21 cadre to create all the material reserves and then pick out the right

22 moment to strike. And immediately after that my companions, my comrades

23 who worked with me made a sign to me, and I just fled from the place.

24 Which shows clearly that it was all planned and prepared, all that was

25 then to happen.

Page 3467

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Page 3468

1 Q. Mr. Zekovic, were you ever interrogated while you were at KP Dom?

2 A. Yes, twice.

3 Q. Tell us about the first time. When was it?

4 A. The first time I was interrogated, about 25 days after my

5 detention in the camp, and it was rather short. Inspector Koprivica was

6 the one who interrogated me. He wanted me to describe to him in detail

7 where I had been when the war started, whom I was seeing then, and about

8 my movements at that time. And I told him all that. Of course, he knew

9 all that. And he typed on a typewriter, this short record, which I

10 signed.

11 Q. Which part in the KP Dom did this interrogation take place?

12 A. Most people, including myself, were taken for interrogations to

13 the second floor of the new wing of the building.

14 Q. When you say the second floor, is that the floor that's the next

15 one from the ground floor or is it the ground floor, first --

16 A. Yes, the first one above the ground floor, so I would say that

17 it's a two-storeyed building.

18 Q. When your interrogation was completed, what happened to you? Were

19 you taken someplace?

20 A. Yes. I was taken to the end of the hall where there is a

21 staircase that leads to the ground floor. That's where Koprivica left

22 me. He told me to wait, and he entered the first office where they were

23 interrogating some people.

24 Q. Did you hear anybody inside that room where somebody else was

25 being interrogated? Did you hear what was being said?

Page 3469

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. What?

3 A. At the moment when inspector Vladicic walked out, as he opened the

4 door, he turned his face again towards the inside of that room and he

5 said, "Just hit him, do whatever, and he's going to admit whatever we ask

6 him to." And then he turned around and saw me. He called out to a guard

7 from the office and told him to take me to where I had been before that,

8 and that guard took me to an isolation cell on the ground floor and locked

9 me up in there.

10 Q. Was there anybody else in that isolation cell?

11 A. Yes. In that isolation cell I found three men, in terrible shape:

12 beaten up. Two of them were lying on the floor and the third one was

13 sitting with his back against the wall.

14 Q. Are you able to tell us their names?

15 A. One was Aziz Sahinovic. He worked at the Privredna Banka in

16 Foca. And the other one was Rizvanovic. I don't know his first name, but

17 his nickname was Ace. And this Aziz Sahinovic asked me to help him so

18 that he could lean against the wall. He was in such terrible shape that

19 he couldn't move by himself. Rizvanovic, nicknamed Ace, said to me quite

20 literally, that's what I'm going to tell you, "Zeka, we are done in for

21 tonight. Vukovic and Obrenovic are on duty and we are in deep trouble."

22 That meant that there would be beatings again. And we could hear that

23 almost every night in our rooms.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, just for cross-reference, Aziz Sahinovic

25 is mentioned in the indictment at paragraph 5.29. He's identified by the

Page 3470

1 initials AS.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

3 MS. KUO:

4 Q. Did they tell you what had just happened to them, how they ended

5 up in such bad shape in that isolation cell?

6 A. They were beaten up, mistreated by the guards. They were there a

7 few days before I was. We could not know exactly who was detained there

8 and who was there for how long, but they were in terrible shape, I have to

9 say that.

10 Q. Did you know how long they had been in that room by the time you

11 arrived?

12 A. They were a day before that for sure, but for how long even before

13 that, that I don't know. Well, perhaps even a few days. They talked.

14 Because not the same guards were there every night. And since they said

15 that Vukovic and Obrenovic would be on duty that night, since they knew

16 that, that could have well meant that they had been there for over two

17 days.

18 Q. Do you know the first names of Vukovic and Obrenovic, the two

19 guards that they mentioned?

20 A. Obren Obrenovic, nicknamed Rambo. I don't know Vukovic's first

21 name. I just know that he's from Cohodar Mahala and that he's tall and

22 fair. I can't remember his name now, but on a list, I'd probably

23 recognise his name.

24 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Obrenovic is listed on Exhibit P3 at

25 number 46.

Page 3471

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 MS. KUO: Just so the court knows, the first name of the person

3 listed at 46 is Dragomir Obrenovic, but we think that's the right person.

4 Obren is his nickname.

5 Q. How long were you in that isolation cell with those three men?

6 A. I don't know exactly. I didn't have a watch so I can't say.

7 About an hour, an hour and a half, something like that, up to two hours.

8 Not more than that.

9 Q. What happened at that time?

10 A. Then, again, the same guard who brought me there came. I don't

11 know his name. He's one of the guards. And he took me upstairs to the

12 first office where they were carrying out interrogations and he took me

13 in. Inside, I found a young man from Cohodar Mahala, I can't remember his

14 name exactly now, and they were finishing their interview with him. They

15 said to him, "Well, see, you could have signed all of this, even without

16 being beaten. It would have been better for you." Something like that.

17 Koprivica said to this guard, "Why did you bring him? He's finished."

18 Q. Who was he referring to as "him"?

19 A. Me. He said to this guard, "Why did you bring him? He has

20 finished." And then he said, "Take him back to where he was." And then

21 we went out of the office again. We went downstairs. He went towards the

22 entrance office, a few steps away, to get the keys so that he could return

23 me to the isolation cell, and at that moment, Inspector Vladicic came up

24 and said, "No, you fool, not there. Take him back to the room." So,

25 luckily, that time, I was not beaten.

Page 3472

1 Q. You mentioned that there was a second time you were interrogated.

2 When was that?

3 A. That was after my attempted escape.

4 Q. We'll get to that when we discuss that topic. Did you hear yet

5 other people while they were being interrogated?

6 A. Yes. I worked in this administration building a few times in the

7 new wing. I did some work on the locks. And I heard them shouting from

8 one office. They were beating him. They were asking him to confess, to

9 confess that he had made war reserves of water, because in his basement,

10 they found a large barrel where he kept sauerkraut during the winter. In

11 the spring, he put water into the barrel so that he could clean it, so

12 that he could wash it, whereas they claimed that he was trying to stock up

13 on water. And he said, "Why would I need stocks of water when I had water

14 all round my house?" However, they were yelling at him and I heard them

15 beating him and saying, "We know everything. You don't have to tell us

16 anything. You don't have to lie. You don't have to justify yourself."

17 Q. Do you know the name of that person who was being interrogated?

18 A. I don't.

19 Q. Do you know where he was from?

20 A. From the outskirts of Foca, from Kamen up there. That's a village

21 near Foca actually.

22 Q. Was that person also detained in KP Dom at that time?

23 A. Yes, yes. I didn't remember his name. He was with me in Room 18

24 when I was brought there. Later, when the workroom was set up, we were

25 separated from the rest.

Page 3473

1 Q. Do you know what eventually happened to that man?

2 A. Don't know.

3 Q. Did Salko Mandzo ever tell you what happened to him?

4 A. Yes, yes. When we met, when this workroom was set up, he told me

5 what had happened to him. Before that, I saw when that had happened but I

6 didn't know the details. However, when the workroom was set up, he told

7 me that he had been interrogated, that they had tied his chairs back on

8 the chair like this, that they beat him, that they mistreated him, and

9 that at that moment, one of these men who were interrogating him, he

10 didn't know what to say, whether they were policemen or whatever, that he

11 put a knife by his eye and said that he would gouge his eyes out, and at

12 that moment, the warden walked in and Savo Todovic, and then they said,

13 "No, it's not that Mandzo. We need to interrogate a different Mandzo."

14 Then they let him go. From the window of my room, I saw him walk into the

15 yard. He was all faint. He could hardly walk. He was staggering, but

16 they told him to go, but in that condition, he passed by the stairs and he

17 started going towards that other area of the yard, and then the guards

18 returned him from there too, and then he went to the gate again. And then

19 at the gate, they said to him, "Why have you come again? Haven't you got

20 enough by now? Go back to your room." He was all covered with blood, his

21 face and his shirt. He wore a shirt.

22 Q. Were you actually able yourself to see Salko Mandzo walk back and

23 forth in the yard all bloodied?

24 A. I personally saw him. I personally saw him.

25 Q. Did you see any scar near his eye at a later date?

Page 3474

1 A. I could not see the scar; I could only see that his face and shirt

2 were bloodied. But I saw the scar later, later in our room.

3 Q. And you said that Salko Mandzo told you that the warden and

4 Todovic both came in. Did he say which of the two made the comment that

5 it was the wrong Mandzo?

6 A. No. No, he didn't say exactly. When they entered the room, they

7 said that it was the wrong Mandzo, that they were supposed to interrogate

8 another one.

9 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Salko Mandzo is listed in Schedule B at

10 number 36, and this incident is listed in the indictment at paragraph

11 5.28.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

13 MS. KUO:

14 Q. Mr. Zekovic, do you know what happened to Balic, Dzemo?

15 A. When I was brought to the camp on the 20th of May, he was locked

16 up in an isolation cell. Much later he was released. He was taken back

17 to my room. He said that he was interrogated several times, that he was

18 beaten, that he was mistreated. He could hardly move this hand. They

19 forced him -- they were forcing him to sign some kind of statement that he

20 had established some kind of units, something like that.

21 Q. Did he tell you how long he was in the solitary cell?

22 A. I think that he was in the solitary cell for over three weeks. I

23 don't know exactly. I can't remember. But he was there for a long time,

24 he was.

25 Q. Mr. Zekovic, I'd like to ask you now about beatings that occurred

Page 3475

1 in the evenings. Could you tell us whether there were beatings in the

2 evenings and how they occurred?

3 A. Very often, practically from the very beginning, almost every

4 evening; this would happen four or five, six evenings in a row, and then

5 there would be an interruption for a day or two, so there were these

6 irregular intervals. It was almost every evening. Sometimes it would

7 last for an hour, sometimes it would last even longer. In passing -- I

8 mean, this was all happening by the entrance, and sometimes it could

9 happen in other places as well, but we could not locate those premises

10 precisely. Usually it was people who were kept in this isolation cell

11 were taken out for beatings, and often people were taken out of isolation

12 cells that were within the prison compound. And often people's names were

13 called out from rooms, and we could all hear and see that quite clearly,

14 when they would come and call out people's name, and then soon after that

15 you could hear horrible screams and moans and cries of these people.

16 Later, when I started going out to the metal workshop to work, I

17 could see the walls of this hallway, this entrance hallway, all bloodied.

18 There were lots of bloodstains. And that's the way it was until the Red

19 Cross came for the first time, when these walls were painted. Two inmates

20 painted those walls.

21 Q. Where was the entrance hallway located that you saw covered with

22 blood?

23 A. The entrance to the KP Dom. And then that's where people would

24 pass, where prisoners would be searched, and that's where you entered the

25 prison compound.

Page 3476

1 MS. KUO: To be absolutely sure, I'd like to have the usher show

2 the witness Exhibit P6/1.

3 Q. Could you show us on this diagram where the walls were that you

4 saw the bloodstains?

5 A. Here. The entrance into the KP Dom is here. This is where the

6 entrance office is. This is where the gate to enter the KP Dom compound

7 is. It's these walls, these walls, and these.

8 Q. Could you slow down when you say "these walls"? Show us one wall,

9 and then pause briefly and then show us another one.

10 A. All right. I'm sorry. It's this wall here, opposite the door;

11 this wall by the door; and the wall on the side facing the interior part

12 of the camp. Here, in the corner, there was a metal wardrobe for clothes,

13 and there were bloodstains on that too.

14 MS. KUO: Let the record reflect that the witness has indicated a

15 wall to the left as you walk into the entrance to the KP Dom, the wall

16 directly in front and also the wall to the right. When he described the

17 metal wardrobe, he was indicating the corner to the left and front, so

18 that if you're coming through the metal gate in the inside of the

19 courtyard, it is directly in front of you. Thank you.

20 Q. Were you able to see where people -- well, first of all, you said

21 they would come and call out names from the rooms. Who are you referring

22 to as "they"? Who would come?

23 A. The guards. That was always in the evening. Those who were on

24 duty that evening, their shift would start at 7.00 and it would always

25 happen after that.

Page 3477

1 Q. Do you know how the people were chosen to be taken out?

2 A. It would be hard for me to give you an accurate answer, precise

3 answer. Some people were taken out several times; others were taken out

4 that way and they were never returned to the room, never.

5 Q. Were you able personally to see where people were taken to?

6 A. What do you mean, could I personally see where they were taken

7 to? When they would take them out of the room, they would open this metal

8 door, and that same second you could hear screams and moans, and sometimes

9 it would go on for an hour, sometimes even longer than that.

10 Q. So this is the same metal door that you described as where you

11 would have to wait when you were being taken out to work; is that right?

12 A. Yes. That's that metal door. I'll never forget that sound until

13 the earth covers my eyes in my grave. Because we would hear that sound

14 and we would be startled, because we knew that nothing good would come out

15 of it.

16 Q. What other sounds were you able to hear? Were you able to hear

17 people's voices?

18 A. We heard those people screaming, crying, begging, saying that

19 they're not guilty of anything, that they don't know anything. Once I

20 heard, quite clearly, they asked a man -- I mean, I didn't hear the man

21 being asked where his sons were, but I just heard the man say, "I don't

22 know where my children are. I don't know where my children are," and they

23 beat him mercilessly.

24 Q. Did you recognise any of the people involved in the beatings? Do

25 you know if they were military, for instance, or if they were guards?

Page 3478

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Page 3479

1 A. Guards came to the rooms and they took men out. And now, at the

2 gate, whether there was someone else there, someone who came from the

3 outside, that we couldn't see and that we couldn't know. However, it

4 would happen that soldiers came there too, and members of this so-called

5 military police.

6 Q. When you say soldiers came there, did you actually see soldiers at

7 that metal gate?

8 A. Yes, I did see soldiers during the day and in the evening.

9 Q. But when people were taken out to be beaten, you also saw

10 soldiers?

11 A. Could not see then. Then I could only see and hear the guards

12 coming and taking people out. Who was down there, that we could not see.

13 By this entrance door, I can show it to you in the picture, there was a

14 window, but thin wooden boards were put there instead of glass so you

15 couldn't see through.

16 Q. How do you know that what you called the so-called military police

17 were involved?

18 A. I know. One evening I heard with perfect clarity their commander,

19 that's what he called himself, Coso, they took five or six men from the

20 rooms, they beat them down there, and at one moment, I heard Coso's voice

21 clearly when he said, Nurko, do you know what happened to my Bota?" And he

22 said, "How should I know?" They were beating those men for a very long

23 time. And then I heard his voice, I heard him say, "Well, you can stop

24 now." That lasted for a long time. We knew by the sound of the car that

25 would come in front of the KP Dom, which car it was. They came in a

Page 3480

1 yellow Volkswagen which had a characteristic sound.

2 Q. When you said, "I heard him say, 'Well, you can stop now,'" whose

3 voice did you hear say that?

4 A. Coso's. That's this commander of this military police, Cosovic,

5 Coso.

6 Q. How were you able to recognise his voice? Did you know him from

7 before?

8 A. Yes, I knew him from before, for a long time.

9 Q. In what capacity did you know him?

10 A. I knew him by sight. We would see each other in town and also on

11 rafts on the Tara. We were not friends but I knew him perfectly well.

12 Also, it would happen that we would be in the same cafes.

13 Q. Did you know other members of the military police?

14 A. I knew most of them by sight. Most of them I knew by sight. But

15 I wasn't friends with them before the war. And almost all the members of

16 that so-called military police were known from before to prosecution

17 authorities in Yugoslavia and abroad.

18 Q. You mentioned a comment that you said Coso's made about Bota. Who

19 was Bota, do you know?

20 A. Well, that's a member of his so-called military police. That day,

21 they set off on a mission in the area of Tjentiste and somewhere ran into

22 a mine with a vehicle and that Bota was wounded in the spine, and then

23 they came down to the KP Dom to take revenge.

24 Q. How did you learn that, what happened to Bota at Tjentiste?

25 A. I heard him ask then, "Do you know what happened to my Bota?" So

Page 3481

1 I realised that something had happened to him but, and later on I heard

2 that he had been wounded. Because later on, when I was in the metal shop

3 working, some members of that so-called military police would come, and

4 one of them was Coso, and another one called Djura and some others, and

5 from their conversations, we just learned what had happened. You should

6 know that we had a specific manner of collection of information, and that

7 is you just strain your ears to eavesdrop as much as you can, to overhear

8 as much as you can, whenever you pass by other people, whenever

9 communicating with people around us, and from those odds and ends of

10 information, we tried to put that together and thus came by rather

11 reliable information. About this particular incident, I know specifically

12 because I heard about it from those.

13 Q. Those military police? Is that what you meant?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You mentioned a yellow Volkswagen. When did you hear the sound of

16 that car? Before or after the beating?

17 A. Before and after. First, when they would arrive to the camp, and

18 then after, afterwards, when they left.

19 Q. In relation to the beating of -- that you described, where Coso

20 made the comment about Bota, after the beating, did you hear anything

21 else? You talked about the car but did you hear any gunshots?

22 A. Oh, yes, yes, yes, we heard gunshots, I and many other people in

23 the camp, in rooms. Though many people -- those were horrible moments and

24 some people fled to upper bedrooms and would cover their heads with

25 blankets not to hear those screams, those painful cries of those poor

Page 3482

1 things. And I, yes, I heard shots, shots from a revolver.

2 Q. You described other people covering their ears. Did you do that

3 or did you listen?

4 A. I didn't cover my ears. I had -- I don't know how to put that but

5 I -- somehow, I had the courage. I wanted -- I wanted to hear as much as

6 possible, to learn, see as much as possible, so that if I survived, I

7 could tell others what had happened.

8 Q. You described gunshots. Could you tell us how many you heard?

9 A. I cannot say exactly whether five or seven, but because, of

10 course, there is an echo there but not less than five, maybe six.

11 Q. What happened --

12 A. I apologise, I'm not being precise. Five, six or seven. But it

13 did happen, except that I cannot really affirm if it was six or seven or

14 five. I suppose if you collect more information, you will find out how

15 many people were killed then.

16 Q. While this was happening, do you know if anybody was in the

17 warden's office?

18 A. Lights were on. Yes, there were lights on, and we could hear

19 people come in, go out, even though it was in a different wing of the

20 building.

21 Q. What did you hear after the gunshots?

22 A. After those gunshots, we heard a car engine being switched on in

23 front of the KP Dom, in front of the camp, and by the sound, we identified

24 that car, we knew that it was from the metal shop, that is a Zastava car,

25 that is something like a pickup vehicle. People who were in Room 13, I

Page 3483

1 spoke with them later on, it was that gentleman whom we mentioned FWS-210

2 and another one who worked with me in the metal shop, and he -- I think he

3 must have been killed because I don't know where he is. Nobody knows

4 where he is. Uzeir Hadzalic, they told me how they could see the stairs,

5 the staircase, how those bodies wrapped in blankets were taken down and

6 out.

7 Q. Could you tell by listening where the Zastava car went?

8 A. The distance was very -- the distance covered was very short, 100,

9 150 metres perhaps, and then the engine was switched off. That is what I

10 could hear, I couldn't hear anything else.

11 Q. The following morning, did you actually see that Zastava car, that

12 pickup truck?

13 A. Yes. The next morning I saw that car in the metal shop area. The

14 next morning, we were not taken to work outside so that only this friend

15 of mine whom I just mentioned, number 210 and I were the only ones who

16 went into the metal shop area, into its yard, to pick up some letters that

17 we had made for Room 13, and the boring machine and the welding device and

18 other tools that we needed, and in the metal shop yard, we found that

19 car. It had been just washed. I mean five or ten minutes before that.

20 So that water was still dripping. And in the grooves where the rear part

21 of the car, the freight part of the car, one could clearly see traces of

22 blood.

23 MS. KUO: I'd like to have the witness shown Prosecution Exhibit

24 6.

25 Q. Could you point out to us where this metal shop was and where you

Page 3484

1 saw the car, approximately?

2 A. This is the metal shop yard and the car was here in front of the

3 locksmith's.

4 Q. Was the car usually kept there?

5 A. Yes. Well, not in a strictly defined area.

6 Q. And the entrance to the metal shop area, could you show us if

7 there was a gate?

8 A. Yes, there was a metal gate, a wide gate for large trucks and a

9 small one for the staff, and it is this one here.

10 Q. Was that gate which you're indicating as being to the left of the

11 entrance into the KP Dom compound, was that gate normally locked?

12 A. That gate was always closed and locked, and one entered into the

13 metal shop on the left-hand side, left of the entrance into the KP Dom.

14 MS. KUO: Thank you.

15 And just for the record, Your Honours, the place where the witness

16 was showing the car's location was inside what we could call the courtyard

17 of the metal -- of the workshop area, and that would be to the left of the

18 gate, which is to the left of the entrance into the KP Dom.

19 JUDGE HUNT: When you say "to the left," you mean from the

20 inside?

21 MS. KUO: I mean as we are looking at Exhibit P6.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, on the exhibit. Right. Thank you.

23 MS. KUO:

24 Q. Who did the car belong to? Was it a KP Dom vehicle?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3485

1 Q. What was it used for?

2 A. Well, to carry certain things, for deliveries, for smaller-size

3 production materials, or for the KP Dom as a whole, for the metal shop,

4 the production materials for the metal shop.

5 Q. Was there a specific driver of that car?

6 A. No, not a special one.

7 Q. Was it always KP Dom staff who drove the car?

8 A. Yes, always. Somebody -- yes, somebody from the KP Dom, sometimes

9 a driver and at times a guard.

10 Q. And you mentioned that you recognised that car by the sound. What

11 was specific about the sound?

12 A. Yes, it's true. The exhaust pipe was faulted, and we knew already

13 about that from before, so it had a very characteristic sound when it

14 worked. It was very loud.

15 Q. And in relation to the yellow Volkswagen that you described, were

16 those sounds different?

17 A. Of course. But of course.

18 Q. To whom did the yellow Volkswagen belong?

19 A. The military police, but they had very many vehicles, because they

20 simply picked them up around the town, any number they needed.

21 Q. Did you repair those cars, and that's how you're familiar with

22 them?

23 A. Well, for instance, not this yellow Volkswagen, but vehicles which

24 were in the KP Dom compound, yes, we did. And once we had to repair the

25 car for the commander of the so-called military police. He found the car

Page 3486

1 somewhere, that is, simply robbed somebody of his jeep, and the car was in

2 the car shop. But we from this metal shop had to make the roof; that is,

3 we made tubes, iron tubes, and we had to mount them so as to cover, to

4 cover the roof for the canvas. And Cosa came to the -- downstairs to

5 the -- down to the KP Dom on various occasions.

6 Q. Do you know what access the military police or, indeed, other

7 members of the military had to the KP Dom at this time?

8 A. I suppose free, free, free access. I mean, I don't know. Once, a

9 neighbour of mine, Dragan Zelja, he came in the evening - it was already

10 past 8.00 - brought me a package of cigarettes, which means that he could

11 enter freely. And likewise, those others who came to the metal shop,

12 whenever they needed it.

13 Q. Your neighbour, Dragan Zelja, what is his last name? What is his

14 family name?

15 A. Zelenovic.

16 Q. What function did he have in the military?

17 A. How could I know that? He did not tell me. He did not tell me

18 whether he had a rank or an office or something. I know he was a member.

19 Q. Was he a member of the military police?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know if he was present when Nurko Nisic was being beaten?

22 Did you --

23 A. I suppose and I think so, yes.

24 Q. Why do you suppose so?

25 A. Because he was a part of this narrow circle, Cosa's circle, and

Page 3487

1 I'm -- yes, I'm quite confident that he was there, and he was also great

2 friends with that Bota.

3 Q. Did you hear Zelja's voice that night when Nurko Nisic was being

4 beaten?

5 A. Well, I cannot say 100 per cent, but I think I did, yes. He

6 speaks very fast. That is his characteristic. Although it was difficult

7 to tell one from the other precisely, but I think he was; I think so.

8 Q. On the night that you described when you heard the gunshots, could

9 you tell us who was taken out, who was beaten?

10 A. Nurko Nisic, Mustafa Kuloglija, I think, and I can't remember the

11 names now.

12 MS. KUO: Nurko Nisic, Your Honours, is C-19, and Mustafa

13 Kuloglija is C-15.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

15 MS. KUO:

16 Q. Did you ever see either of those two men again?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Witness, I'd like to move on now and ask you about some exchanges,

19 or people being taken out for so-called exchanges. Can you tell us when

20 those things happened?

21 A. People were taken out for exchange on various occasions in the

22 summer of 1992, in August and September. There were exchanges about which

23 we knew had been carried through, that is, that people had been set free,

24 but many of these exchanges never went through. I saw with my own eyes

25 several times from the metal shop compound groups of people being taken

Page 3488

1 out with their hands tied at their backs and beaten from all sides, and

2 there were both military and KP Dom -- or rather, camp personnel. They

3 drove those people away and they were never seen alive again.

4 Q. How were you able to see over the gate of the metal workshop?

5 A. Well, naturally, from the ground. If you were close to the gate,

6 you could not see it, but if you moved further away from the gate, because

7 the yard of the metal shop, there is some elevation, there is a slope, so

8 you could see then. But in the metal shop area, at that time, we always

9 had a metal kiosk made of metal tubing, some two and a half to three and a

10 half or four metres. I'm not quite sure how large it was. And as we were

11 to work at a height, we had a kind of a scaffolding and we would climb

12 that. So I would climb that and I could see clearly what went on in front

13 of the KP Dom.

14 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

15 witness shown Exhibit P6 again and ask you to show us the area that you're

16 referring to.

17 A. Yes. I have said this is the metal shop gate, this is the

18 entrance into the camp building, here, in front, in the front part of the

19 metal shop, that is, the locksmith shop, in the area, in the yard. So in

20 front, outside, in the open air, was this kiosk which was being built all

21 the time.

22 Q. Could you show us where you saw the detainees being led out?

23 A. Here. Here, at the gate, the main entrance, in front. And the

24 car was turned -- well, a couple of times it was a kind of a van, and once

25 it was an army vehicle, a freight vehicle. And I saw this from here, over

Page 3489

1 the fence. It was about 25, 30 metres away, perhaps a metre or so more,

2 but one could see it clearly.

3 Q. Thank you. Could you see, as the detainees were led out, if the

4 people beating them used any weapons?

5 A. Yes, yes. They had those standard police truncheons and the

6 pieces of very thick cable. I mean electric cable, very thick one. And

7 many also had automatic rifles and carried them, and they beat with those

8 parts, with butts.

9 Q. How many times did you see this type of incident?

10 A. I saw it three times.

11 Q. Are you able to recognise some of the detainees who were taken out

12 in this way?

13 A. In a group, in one of the groups, I recognised, although there

14 were quite a number of guards around them and those troops, but I

15 recognised Ramo Dzendusic, Mersud Pasovic and Kemo Isanovic.

16 Q. Did you ever see any of those three men again?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. Did you ever hear any discussions among the guards or soldiers

19 about exchanges? Or did you actually ever have any conversations with

20 them?

21 A. We received some information from some guards too, and sometimes

22 information from people we could meet around the KP Dom, around the camp,

23 and outside -- outside the KP Dom compound when we went to work, out in

24 the field, to put it that way.

25 Q. Did anybody ever tell you what happened to the people who were

Page 3490

1 taken out? Were they exchanged?

2 A. Once, in the yard of the compound, I came across a soldier who

3 used to work at the same place where I did before the war, and we knew

4 each other well, and he told me, "Well, a couple of days ago, I

5 escorted -- I was an escort and your uncle was exchanged at Rogoj." So

6 those men were set free. But about a number of those exchanges, that is

7 people who had been taken away, but -- well, and we never heard from them

8 so it was sort of -- well, it's logical then that they must have been

9 killed, but nobody said that. But somehow we did not know and we do not

10 know. But there were guards, there were guards who told us, who told me,

11 and this person who is indicated here, 210, "If they call you for

12 exchange, to refuse it, to say, 'We don't want to go. We don't want to be

13 exchanged. We don't want to -- we don't want to be sent to fight.'" So

14 they must have been abreast of what was going on. And I and this friend

15 of mine, who is mentioned here, we once wrote a kind of an application, a

16 kind of request that we handed to Savo Todovic, asking not to be

17 exchanged.

18 And there was yet another thing which was very characteristic. In

19 the summer of 1992, the end of the summer, late summer, a group of workers

20 was taken away, that is of skilled workers, those who worked with us in

21 the metal shop, were taken away, Suad Islambasic, Abdulah Kameric, Uzeir

22 Hadzalic, who else? Can't now, the names escape me now. But they were

23 taken for an exchange, and when Relja returned the next day -- he was

24 absent at that time. The next day, he walked around, he seemed to be out

25 of his mind, he was walking up and down the yard, "They've taken away

Page 3491

1 skilled workers, good workers. Who will work from now? They are asking

2 me to finish the work, to complete this and complete that, and they took

3 my best workers away." And after that, a list was compiled, even though,

4 of course, it was clear who had stayed behind. Savo Todovic made a list

5 of us who worked, and nobody else was taken for exchange.

6 Q. Did Relja ever tell you who made these lists for exchange?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did he tell you who made work lists?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who?

11 A. Those lists were made by the warden and by Savo. Because once

12 I -- I asked. He said, "Well, Zuti, Lija, are going to the hospital,"

13 and yet another one from Jelec, I can't remember his name. And I said,

14 "Relja, why don't I go?" Because I knew quite a lot of people down there

15 because my wife used to work in the hospital. And he said, "I can't do

16 anything about it, Zeka. What the warden and Savo write down, those they

17 assign have to go. I can't do anything about that." And then I said,

18 "Well, I'm -- I know those things better. Zuti and his brother are not

19 really particularly qualified to do that. I know better how to do the

20 job." But it was of no avail.

21 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 4.00.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 9.30 in the morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday the 22nd day

25 of February, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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