1 Thursday, 15
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor
8 versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry that we've been pushed back into this tiny
10 little shoe box, but the number one court was required for the initial
11 appearance of an accused who surrendered the other day, and they needed a
12 public gallery, and we were the only one which would fit in here. We are
13 back in the other courtroom next week.
14 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour
16 WITNESS: AMIR BERBERKIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, Dr. Berberkic.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Dr. Berberkic, before the break you told us about the
22 disappearance of Halim Dedovic in a group in December 1992, and you
23 mentioned that Fahrudin Malkic, nicknamed Baron, was in this group, and
24 that Gojko Jokanovic mentioned that this detainee had called him
25 afterwards. What exactly did Mr. Jokanovic tell you?
1 A. What he said exactly was that Baron called him on the telephone
2 from Montenegro.
3 Q. Did you know this Baron yourself?
4 A. I did not know Baron, but I was in the same room with him for a
5 while - I cannot remember exactly when - and he was also in Room 16 where
6 I was at the beginning.
7 Q. Later on did you ever meet him again after your release, or did
8 you meet any of his relatives?
9 A. I never met with him again. I heard that he never showed up
10 anywhere again and that he's registered as a missing person.
11 Q. And who told you that, do you recall?
12 A. I cannot remember who told me that, but I discussed with him
13 several people. Some of them even called me on the phone, some members of
14 his family, but I cannot remember who it was exactly that I talked to.
15 Q. And Mr. Dedovic, was he ever seen alive or met by you or anyone
16 else; do you know? We talked about him.
17 A. As far as I know, Halim Dedovic is registered as missing. He has
18 not been heard of ever. In Sarajevo, I talked to some people who inquired
19 about him, they were his friends from Foca, but they couldn't tell me any
20 news about him. He is missing.
21 Q. In this group you have mentioned that there was Aziz Sahinovic.
22 Who was he?
23 A. I know that he worked in a bank in Foca. I called him Banka,
24 although I don't know whether that is accurate. He was with me in Room 18
25 when he was taken away. He was beaten several times. I think it was
1 about some money. I think they wanted him to reveal the whereabouts of
2 some Deutschemarks from the bank. And he was taken away with Medin
3 Tatarevac who also worked in this bank. He disappeared with the same
4 group. He personally told me that he, Jovo Savic, a guard, beat him up on
5 several occasions.
6 Q. When was Mr. Sahinovic beaten by this guard Savic? Do you know
8 A. That was in the beginning, when he was just brought in. It could
9 have been June, early June maybe.
10 Q. Did you see injuries on Mr. Sahinovic after these beatings?
11 A. I saw swellings, haematoma around both eyes. That is all you
12 could see on his face.
13 Q. You said he was beaten on several occasions. How often was he
15 A. I think it was more than two or more than three times. Perhaps
16 three times.
17 Q. Was it always the guard Savic who beat him or was that only on one
19 A. I cannot claim that it was always Jovo Savic, but it is certain
20 that Jovo Savic beat him at least once and beat him hard.
21 Q. Did Mr. Sahinovic tell you where he was beaten, or do you know
22 from other sources or your own observation where he was beaten?
23 A. He told me that he had been beaten in the solitary cell where he
24 had spent some time, but he didn't say which solitary cell, whether it was
25 the one within the compound, which means in building number 3, or it was
1 one of the solitary cells in the administration building. That remained
2 unclear to me.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the case of Aziz Sahinovic is
4 mentioned in the indictment under point 5.29.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
7 Q. Dr. Berberkic, do you know a Seval Soro?
8 A. I'm not sure. I think he was the one who was a butcher in Foca,
9 but I couldn't give any precise information about him. I think he was
10 there, but when he disappeared from the camp I could not confirm with any
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
16 Q. Do you know Kemal Isanovic?
17 A. I know Kemal Isanovic very well. He worked as a waiter in a
18 pizzeria owned by Adnan Isanovic. I saw him on several occasions in the
19 KP Dom. He was in building number 1. I don't know exactly in which
21 He was interrogated several times, and I observed on him standard
22 injuries to the face caused by a beating with a blunt object, such as
23 swelling on the face, swelling around the eyes. I didn't notice any other
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under
1 Schedule B, number 30.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Do you know Resad Hadzimesic?
5 A. Resad Hadzimesic, also known as Mesa, I know the man well. I
6 played football with him in the local football club Sutjeska. He was in
7 the KP Dom. I don't think that he had been beaten. I didn't notice any
8 injuries on him at least. He was taken away from the KP Dom. I don't
9 know exactly when, but I never heard of him since.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is mentioned under
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. Dr. Berberkic, was a Mehmed Sofradzija detained in the KP Dom?
15 A. Mehmed Sofradzija is a distant relative of mine. He worked in the
16 town hall before the war in Foca. He had been brought in from Novi Sad,
17 as far as I know, and I believe that is accurate information. He was
18 brought by policemen from Foca, one of them Matovic, who was the
19 goalkeeper of the football club Sutjeska. I know him also. And he spent
20 some time in solitary cells near the gate. I don't know how much time,
21 but I believe it was five or six days. Later he was brought to building
22 number 3. I don't know which room. I think it might have been Room 18.
23 Q. Was he beaten? Could you see anything on him?
24 A. He was beaten and beaten badly. I believe his entire face was
1 Q. When did you see him and where did you see him with these
3 A. I saw him several times in the KP Dom. I think it was the month
4 of July. He was there in July. I even saw him the last time he was taken
5 away from the KP Dom. I communicated with him through the window, letting
6 him know that he should telephone my family and tell them that I was
8 Q. Does that mean you thought he was going for an exchange and would
9 be able to contact your family when you saw him last?
10 A. Of course, because at that moment, we thought that the prisoners
11 who were leaving the camp were going for an exchange - at least that is
12 the explanation we got from the guards who came to fetch the prisoners -
13 or that they were going to do some work outside the compound.
14 Q. When was Mehmed Sofradzija taken away? When did you see him last?
15 A. It could have been the first half of September 1992.
16 Q. Was he taken -- was he taken in a group of people, or was he taken
18 A. He was taken away in a group. I don't know how many people there
19 were in the group, but it might have been more than ten.
20 Q. And did you hear anything about this group later on?
21 A. As far as I know, none of them were heard of since. I talked to
22 his brother who lives in Sarajevo. He is still searching for him,
23 although there is no new information available.
24 Q. And Mehmed Sofradzija, does he have a nickname?
25 A. His nickname was Mesa.
1 Q. And did you have opportunity to talk to him and ask him who beat
2 him and where he was beaten?
3 A. I didn't have occasion to talk to him directly. All the
4 communication I had with him was through the window while he was leaving
5 when I made the request that I had just mentioned. But I talked to
6 another prisoner who was with him in a solitary cell, and that man's name
7 is Asim. I don't remember the last name, but he comes from the village of
8 Sukovac on the left bank of the Drina River.
9 The solitary cells were in building number 3. The two of them
10 were alone in the cell. Asim said that Mesa was very frightened because
11 he didn't think he would survive. He took off the watch from his hand
12 to -- and gave it to Asim so that Asim could give it to his son as a
13 memento. He told Asim that he had been in a solitary cell for about seven
14 days, one of the cells near the gates, and in that time he had nothing to
15 eat or drink. He drank his own urine, those were his own words.
16 Asim told me this story in Room 16 when he was brought to that
17 room from a solitary cell. He didn't say who had beaten him. He only
18 said in Novi Sad he was handcuffed, and his wrists and hands were swollen,
19 and that this policeman Matovic was involved in all this.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Mehmed Sofradzija is
21 mentioned under B-52.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
24 Q. Did you meet a Salko Mandzo in the KP Dom?
25 A. I think this is a man whose nickname was Kelta; Salko Mandzo, also
1 known as Kelta. I never met him personally. He worked in a labour group,
2 as far as I know. But in the beginning, in June, he was taken away
3 several times and beaten near the gates in one of those cells.
4 Q. How do you know that? How do you know that? You said you did not
5 meet him personally. Did you see him being taken and with injuries?
6 A. I saw him both when he was being taken away and when he was being
7 returned. I saw injuries on his face. At the time he was in building
8 number 1. He was taken away several times and brought back. The
9 prisoners who were with me told me that that was his name. I hadn't known
10 him. And it later turned out that he was beaten by mistake, that he had
11 been confused with somebody else. That is, at least, what I was told.
12 Somebody else was supposed to be taken for a beating, not him.
13 Q. And you mentioned that it was in June, June 1992?
14 A. I think it was June in 1992.
15 Q. And you said that you saw injuries on his face. Could you see
16 what kind of injuries he had?
17 A. Those injuries were probably inflicted by a hand or a blunt
18 object. There was no bleeding that I can remember, at least, no
19 significant bleeding. Those were mainly swellings and haematomas.
20 Q. You said he was beaten by mistake. Mistake for whom, do you
21 know? Did you later learn for whom he was mistaken?
22 A. No, I never learnt anything about that.
23 Q. This pattern of beatings, how did they affect you personally?
24 Psychologically, I mean.
25 A. It affected not only me but all the other prisoners. We were
1 frightened for our lives. People who were beaten and who would come back
2 to their rooms were in a very bad mental and physical state. Everyone in
3 the room was frightened. We were thinking that we might be next, and we
4 were even preparing for it. We had our own ways of preparing for it,
5 namely, that people -- we used to give people who were being taken for
6 interrogation our jackets to soften the blows that they were receiving.
7 Q. In which way did you prepare for, for your interrogation or for
8 your turn? Did you do anything in particular?
9 A. I also received a sweater from another prisoner which I put on. I
10 expected that I would be beaten. I wrote a farewell letter to my family
11 and gave it to Hasan Dzano who was in my room, and I told him if he
12 survived, he should find a way to deliver this letter to my wife and
13 children. I was not optimistic about my chances of survival, at least,
14 not in the beginning of my imprisonment.
15 Q. You have already mentioned two of your relatives that were in the
16 KP Dom. Were more of your relatives in the KP Dom? Do you recall anyone
17 else who was also detained with you?
18 A. There were two of my relatives in there. One of them was Adnan
19 Berberkic. He is from Miljevina. The other is Rasim Merkez from the
20 village of Ribari near Josanica.
21 Q. What happened to these two of your relatives? Did they survive
22 the KP Dom? Are they alive?
23 A. No, none of them survived. They're both missing.
24 Q. You told us in the beginning of your testimony that you were
25 arrested with Halil Merkez. What became of him? Did he survive the
1 KP Dom?
2 A. He survived the KP Dom. He was exchanged. I think he was taken
3 first to Kalinovik, where he spent some time in prison, and then he was
4 exchanged. He now lives in Sarajevo.
5 Q. You also mentioned Adnan Dzaferspahic was arrested soon after
6 you. What became of him?
7 A. Adnan Dzaferspahic did not survive the camp. He is registered as
8 missing. He was taken away in a group of more than 30 men, all of whom
9 were young men from 25 to 35 years old, strong men, able-bodied. The
10 guards said they were taking them to do some sort of work. That was the
12 Q. When did this happen? When did he disappear from the KP Dom?
13 A. I think it could have been the first half of September 1992.
14 Q. You described to us already how you were beaten in the yard by
15 soldiers. Did you see any other detainee being beaten in the yard or in
16 the canteen? Do you recall anyone?
17 A. I remember a man who was ill; I think he had epilepsy. In front
18 of the kitchen on the stairs, I think he was asking to go home. He was
19 screaming, "I want to go home. Why am I here? I want to go home." Two
20 guards, Vlatko Pljevaljcic and another one named Perisic, beat him and
21 kicked him there on the stairs and then they brought him to building
22 number 3. They beat him again in the hallway of that building. I don't
23 know whether they returned him after that to his own room or to a solitary
24 cell. I think he was brought back to his room.
25 Q. Where were you when you saw that happen?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. I was in Room 16, and we could clearly see through the window of
2 our room what was going on.
3 Q. Do you know the name of this person, the victim?
4 A. I think his name was Dzafer Humic, but I'm not sure, Humic,
5 because I did not know him before nor did I have occasion to meet with him
6 in the camp.
7 Q. You said he suffered from epilepsy. Did he also have a physical
9 A. I cannot remember if he had trouble walking or if he had any other
10 disability, but I think he was -- he had a disease of the nerves. I would
11 call him a mental patient or a nervous patient.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that it
13 is the incident 5.9 in the indictment and that the guards mentioned,
14 Pljevaljcic is listed as number 35 in Exhibit P-3, and Perisic is listed
15 under number 20.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Were you ever registered by the ICRC?
19 A. I have already stated that my name does not feature on any
20 official lists nor did I have any occasion to see my name on the lists of
21 organisations such as the Red Cross or any other humanitarian
23 Q. Did the ICRC come to the KP Dom and, if so, where were you?
24 A. During my stay at the KP Dom, the International Red Cross came
25 twice. The first time, it was on the 23rd of June, 1992. No, 1993. I'm
1 sorry. The second time, it was August the same year.
2 Q. And where were you when they came?
3 A. The first time, on the 23rd of June, 1992 [sic], a group of us
4 were put into a vehicle, 12 of us. We were put into a car, and they took
5 us to the basement of the bakery that was near the KP Dom. They took us
6 in the morning. We stayed there until the afternoon, approximately.
7 There were 12 of us. Witness FWS-111 was there; Dr. Torlak, Aziz Torlak;
8 Witness FWS-146. I know that we were 12 in all. There were other
9 detainees there too as well.
10 We spent a certain amount of time there, so the guard who was
11 guarding us took us back to the KP Dom on foot. He was armed. We queued
12 up two by two, and he took us to the KP Dom, to the main gate. However,
13 very soon, one of the policemen ran out of the outpost there and verbally
14 attacked this guard, saying why did he bring us back when he had not
15 received orders to that effect. So then we were quickly returned to the
16 basement of the bakery.
17 In front of the gate of the KP Dom, we saw a Land Rover with Red
18 Cross signs on it. Obviously we had been hidden, and the guard who was
19 guarding us there in hiding did not know why we had been hidden. Only in
20 the evening we were picked up again and taken back to the room where we
21 had been earlier on.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that the witness again said
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
25 Q. Yes, I just wanted to clarify that. You said 23rd of June, 1992.
1 Is that correct, or is it a mistake in the year?
2 A. No, it's the 23rd of June, 1993. I think I said it. I think I
3 also corrected myself.
4 Q. And you said in August 1993 the Red Cross came again. Where were
5 you? What happened?
6 A. In August 1993 we found out from some guards that the
7 International Red Cross would come. The detainees were even cleaning the
8 premises in order to prepare for this visit by the Red Cross. However, in
9 the morning we were picked up again on that same day. We were put into a
10 military truck. They put us up on the truck. They closed the truck.
11 Vlatko Pljevaljcic, an armed guard, was on the truck with us.
12 They drove us to Brioni. That is a locality on the right bank of
13 the Cehotina. It's about three or four kilometres away from Foca. There
14 was a farm there before the war and also during the war, and they had some
15 kind of agricultural produce there. We were put into a hangar, something
16 like that, and they told us to clean up the chicken coops where there were
17 chickens before the war.
18 We stayed there the whole day. There were 12 of us again.
19 Actually, it was the same group of people that had been hidden in the
20 basement of the bakery. Around dusk, we were returned again, and at the
21 parking space in front of Brioni we saw the same Land Rover belonging to
22 the Red Cross, and we had assumed that they had already returned from
23 their visit to the KP Dom, and that proved to be true.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I would be interested to know
25 something about the makeup of this group of 12, the same group of 12.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
2 JUDGE HUNT: If you would like to ask some questions about that,
3 I'd be grateful.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
5 Q. You have already mentioned several of the people that are on your
6 list and you have already mentioned Dr. Torlak. The other people in this
7 group, what kind of people were they?
8 A. I would say that these were intellectuals, although Witness
9 FWS-146 was among them who did not really belong to this group of
10 intellectuals, I should say. Professor Husein Lojo was there; Safet
11 Avdic, a director; I already mentioned Witness FWS-111; and I think there
12 was Witness FWS-71.
13 Q. You said that except for the one person 146, they were all
14 intellectuals. Were you prominent citizens, so to speak?
15 A. They were intellectuals and prominent citizens of Foca, well-known
16 people, business people who enjoyed a high reputation and people who also
17 held various high offices in Foca.
18 We were wondering why we were isolated at all, the 12 of us, why
19 we were isolated into that room, and we assumed that this might have meant
20 some kind of preparations for an exchange. Actually, we were afraid that
21 we were a group that was being manipulated in different ways.
22 Q. You said you were isolated. Does that mean the 12 of you were
23 kept separate, in a separate room in the KP Dom?
24 A. Yes, right. We were kept in a separate room in building number 3.
25 Q. And since when were you in this isolated position?
1 A. After director Dzevad Lojo left - he was the director of the mine
2 in Miljevina - that was in March 1993, after that they established this
3 group of the 12 of us, and they put us in a separate room in building
4 number 3.
5 Q. Did you ever speak with any of the KP Dom staff about why you were
7 A. We spoke to many guards who guarded us, but nobody could give us
8 reliable information. They were simply guessing, just like we were.
9 That's what they told us, we are preparing you for -- "They are preparing
10 you for something," but we did not know what it was all about, really.
11 Q. Yes, thank you. Dr. Berberkic, let us now talk about some
12 people -- some staff members of the KP Dom. Who was the warden of the KP
13 Dom while you were detained there?
14 A. While I was there, the warden was Milorad Krnojelac, Mico.
15 Q. Who was the prewar warden?
16 A. The warden was another Serb who I knew very well, but right now I
17 can't remember his name. I may be able to remember it later, though.
18 Q. Did you see -- this other person who was the warden before
19 Mr. Krnojelac, did you see him in the KP Dom while you were detained
21 A. No. I never saw that person, although I know that person well.
22 Q. Did you speak with anyone of the KP Dom staff about this former
23 warden and why he was replaced?
24 A. His name is Radojica Tesovic. He was the warden of the KP Dom
25 before the war broke out. We talked to the guards. We even talked
1 amongst ourselves as to what had happened to him, why he had left. We
2 received information from the Serb guards that allegedly he did not agree
3 with SDS policy and that he refused the position of warden of the KP Dom
4 that had been offered to him and that he went to be the director of the
5 farm at Brioni.
6 Q. Who told you? You said "guards," but who?
7 A. How should I put this? A person I was on good terms with, and
8 that person is a [redacted], but I cannot give you [redacted]
10 Q. And why not?
11 A. I think that he could get into trouble because of his role in all
12 of this or his behaviour towards the prisoners.
13 Q. Would you be willing to write his name on a piece of paper so that
14 we would not mention this person but see the name on the paper?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE HUNT: That name would have to be shown to the accused. You
17 understand that, do you?
18 A. No. I was not aware of that.
19 JUDGE HUNT: This is a real problem. I mean I'm not saying
20 against the accused himself, but if there is a perception that he could
21 get into trouble, then it may be that we will have to just avoid the use
22 of his name, unless it is in some way important to you.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I thought it is important, but we have to ask
24 the witness if under this condition he is willing to write down the name.
25 JUDGE HUNT: I think he has said no.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He said it was a problem. He said, "No. I
2 was not aware of that."
3 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps I was observing his body language, but you
4 better ask him directly.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
6 Q. Under what you have now been told, are you still willing to write
7 his name down or do you not want to do it now, knowing that the accused
8 would get this information?
9 A. I can't do that.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] By your leave - I believe that my
13 learned friend will agree with me - in his statement that we have and that
14 the accused has, this witness already gave this name. So he said who he
15 got this information from. I'll give you the page number.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's very good of you, Mr. Bakrac, to point
17 that out.
18 I think, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, in those circumstances there could be
19 no problem, provided that it is not made public. But the statements
20 cannot be made public. And indeed --
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
22 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to say, Mr. Bakrac, that they have been
23 given to you on the basis that you don't make them public beyond what is
24 necessary for the purpose of investigating the case. So if it's in the
25 statement, it is still not public but it is, nevertheless, in the hands of
1 the accused.
2 Do you want to add something to what you said before?
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just wanted to
4 help where this is. I mean in the B/C/S version, it's page 9. As for the
5 English version, it's page 10. That's where mention is made of ...
6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you for pointing that out.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: What I see actually in the statement is he
8 mentioned a person who gave him information about the KP Dom and incidents
9 in the KP Dom, but he did not mention that this person --
10 JUDGE HUNT: He was a guard.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. He did not mention that this person told
12 him about why Mr. Tesovic was replaced. Therefore, I wasn't really
13 aware of--
14 JUDGE HUNT: I see. It might be a good idea if you showed the
15 witness his statement so that we can get this cleared up before anything
16 further is said by him.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
18 show the witness his statement. It's ID number, in the binder, 326, and
19 in the B/C/S version, it's page 9.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Page 9, he said.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Please, if you show Dr. Berberkic this
22 page of his statement. It's here.
23 Q. Would you look -- when you look right in the middle of this page,
24 you find a sentence referring to information you got from a person in the
25 KP Dom. Do you see this name?
1 A. [redacted]
3 JUDGE HUNT: In those circumstances, I think that if we could have
4 that person's name written on a piece of paper - I don't want to put the
5 statement in evidence - and it can go in under seal so that we have the
6 record straight, but it certainly will not be made public.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
8 Q. Dr. Berberkic, did you hear what the Presiding Judge said?
9 A. Yes, and I have understood.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Please.
11 JUDGE HUNT: I think for safety's sake we should redact the
12 answer, lines 23 and 24.
13 The document will be Exhibit P438, and it will be under seal.
14 The passage I am having redacted, you've seen that, have you?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but I really didn't understand why.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Because if that was made public, it would demonstrate
17 precisely what it is we say the doctor does not want to have --
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes, yes. Now I understand. Yes, thank
20 JUDGE HUNT: It's just to protect the person's name.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do beg your pardon for
24 interrupting, but I think that after all of this, it would be right if the
25 Defence would see what is written on this piece of paper. We assume that
1 it is what we have all been talking about, but we would like to have a
2 look, nevertheless.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I'm sorry. I didn't realise it had been
4 kept from you. Of course you may see it [redacted]
5 [redacted] Thank you.
6 Having said that, that sentence will have to be redacted as well.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
8 Q. Dr. Berberkic, you said that the warden, during your confinement,
9 was Mr. Krnojelac. Do you know -- did you get information who appointed
10 Mr. Krnojelac in this position?
11 A. We discussed that amongst the prisoners in the camp, and we had
12 some information that allegedly it was the military command, the military
13 command that had appointed Krnojelac warden.
14 Q. What kind of information was that?
15 A. In the room that I was in, Room 16, there were people who knew
16 Krnojelac and who expressed interest, who perhaps wanted to talk to him to
17 discuss our position, to look into why we had been detained, and to find
18 ways and means of improving our situation. I think that these people had
19 better information than the rest, including myself. I'm referring to
20 Dzevad Lojo, the director of the mine at Miljevina. The other Dzevad
21 Lojo, the director of Maglic, that is.
22 Q. Did any of the prison staff members confirm this, or was it just
23 the talk and the information that the detainees had?
24 A. I cannot remember, nor can I say for sure, whether any of the
25 guards had confirmed this piece of information. I think that I personally
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 in conversation with Gojko Jokanovic, that actually I talked to him about
2 this for two or -- on two or three occasions. He confirmed that the
3 military command had appointed Krnojelac. But as for the guards, I did
4 not talk ...
5 Q. Do you recall when you had this conversation with Gojko Jokanovic?
6 A. No, no. I cannot remember exactly.
7 Q. Did you know Mr. Krnojelac from before the war?
8 A. No, no. I did not know him, nor did I ever see him before the
10 Q. Did you see him in the KP Dom?
11 A. Yes, I saw him several times. Many times, I should say.
12 Q. And how do you know that this was Mr. Krnojelac when you didn't
13 know him from before?
14 A. Guards told me -- or people told me, rather, detainees who were in
15 Room 16, they told me. They knew him well. Some of them had worked with
16 him, others had social contacts, things like that.
17 Q. When you saw him in the prison, what did he wear?
18 A. He was in an olive-green/gray uniform. He wore a cap. I think it
19 was the type of cap called Titovka or Partizanka, whichever. I think he
20 had a pistol in a holster.
21 Q. You mentioned this cap. Did a special group of soldiers wear this
22 cap, or was it just the usual cap that all soldiers wore?
23 A. I think it was the type of cap that was worn by the partisans in
24 the Second World War.
25 Q. When you saw him in the military uniform, did you see any
1 insignia, rank insignia on the uniform or the cap?
2 A. I could not say with any degree of certainty. I believe it had
3 some signs of rank, but I cannot really confirm this.
4 Q. How do you know that he was the warden? What information did you
5 have that he was the warden at that time?
6 A. I have already said that we had requested improvements in our
7 conditions and that we were looking for a contact with someone who was in
8 charge of us, who would explain why we were there, what our status was.
9 And we always got one and the same answer, that he was the one
10 responsible; he could help get an improvement in our position.
11 Q. At what times did you see him in the KP Dom? You said you saw him
12 often. At what times?
13 A. That was at various times. In the beginning, the mess where we
14 had our meals was also used by the staff, by guards and other staff, so in
15 the beginning, in July and June also, he also came along with guards and
16 had his breakfast and lunch in that mess. So it was mainly in the morning
17 hours during the day and sometimes even in the afternoon.
18 Q. You mentioned June and July. Is that, again, 1992?
19 A. Yes, 1992.
20 Q. And after, after this -- after June, July 1992, did you continue
21 to see him going for meals into the canteen, or did that stop?
22 A. I think that didn't happen often. At least, it happened more
23 rarely afterwards. But they had so-called alarms in the camp, and I think
24 three such alarms happened in the camp during my stay there. And on those
25 occasions, all guards and the administration staff would arrive fully
1 armed and fully equipped to the compound, to the KP Dom, and then we could
2 see them within the compound wearing camouflage or normal military
3 uniforms, it depends.
4 Q. When did these alarms take place? Do you recall the month when
5 that happened?
6 A. I cannot remember exactly. The first one was in December 1992.
7 The second one, the second alert or alarm was when Zekovic escaped, and
8 that was in July 1993.
9 Q. And the third one?
10 A. I cannot remember about the third one.
11 Q. And --
12 A. Excuse me. I think that could have been the autumn of 1992.
13 Q. You said that the staff then came fully armed. What did that
14 mean? What do you mean by fully armed? What did you see on the staff
16 A. They wore military uniforms or camouflage uniforms that they had
17 made themselves, and they had automatic rifles and a full warfare of
18 equipment, wearing caps.
19 Q. And what did they do when you saw them? The alarm, what did that
21 A. They would usually place soldiers, in fact, the guards who toured
22 the camp, they would place them in front of the buildings where we were
23 locked up.
24 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac taking part in such alarms?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe what you saw him do?
2 A. He was present, especially during the second alert when Zekovic
3 had run away, and I think that he gave assignments to and issued orders to
4 the guards.
5 Q. Was he present during the first alarm, that is, autumn 1992? Do
6 you recall?
7 A. I didn't see him then.
8 Q. And in December 1992, on this second alarm?
9 A. December 1992 was the first alert or alarm that I remember, and
10 the second one was when Zekovic ran away. I think you made a mistake.
11 Q. So then the first alarm that you remember, December 1992, was
12 Mr. Krnojelac present, and, if so, what did you see him do?
13 A. I cannot remember about the first alert, whether he was there or
15 Q. And on the second alert in relation to Mr. Zekovic, was
16 Mr. Krnojelac also fully armed, as you said?
17 A. He was present there, and I believe that everyone had automatic
19 Q. What happened on this occasion, this second occasion related to
20 Zekovic? What did you see happen? Where were you and what did you see
22 A. I believe Zekovic escaped on an afternoon, and it could have been
23 the beginning of July 1993. Whether it was the 4th or the 7th, I can't
24 remember, but I believe it was the 7th of July, 1993.
25 When they found out that he had escaped, they turned on a siren.
1 So we found out that something had happened, and very soon we could see
2 guards running out into the compound, carrying automatic weapons. They
3 were probably looking for clues to find out where he could have gone.
4 They were searching the inner area of the camp. They withdrew the working
5 group from the working area and put them back into their rooms.
6 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac on this occasion?
7 A. Not that day, but the next day, when Ekrem Zekovic was captured,
8 that's when I saw him.
9 Q. Yes. Where were you when you saw him?
10 A. We were lined up on the stadium within the compound. All of us
11 prisoners from all rooms were lined up. First of all, we were taken out
12 into the yard. Ekrem Zekovic was standing in front of us at a distance of
13 about five or six metres. Savo Todovic, also known as Bunda, was standing
14 behind him, together with Milorad Krnojelac, nicknamed Mico, and all the
15 guards of the KP Dom were also present.
16 Q. Yes. And what happened in the yard?
17 A. Savo Todovic made a speech. He said approximately the following,
18 and I think I got this right. I remember it well. He said, "You have in
19 front of you Ekrem Zekovic who tried to escape from the concentration camp
20 or the prison, as you call it, but he didn't succeed. He was captured in
21 a village by women and children. No form of violence has been applied to
22 him, which is another proof of the humaneness of the Serbian army. We
23 know that this attempt is just a test balloon for organised escape which
24 is being prepared by intellectuals, but you don't stand a chance of
1 "From this day on, your rations will be cut down by half. All
2 medical care is banned, and that means that even Dr. Berberkic shall not
3 be allowed to help any of the prisoners. Any conversation with guards is,
4 hence, forbidden. Looking through the window is forbidden.
5 "And now you will all go back to your rooms, collect all the
6 medication and any other things that do not belong to you, and the guards
7 will come to collect them."
8 Q. When Mr. Todovic gave this speech, where was Mr. Krnojelac?
9 A. He was standing right next to him with the group of guards.
10 Q. Did he respond or react in any way to what Mr. Todovic said?
11 A. As far as I remember, he did not utter a word, but he showed his
12 approval by nodding his head. But he didn't actually say a word.
13 Q. When you were returned to your rooms, did all of what Mr. Todovic
14 mention -- let's call it collective punishment, did all this actually
15 happen? Were the rations halved, was the medicine taken away, were you
16 not allowed any longer to help other detainees?
17 A. Yes. As soon as we entered the rooms, the guards arrived perhaps
18 20 minutes later and collected all the things that we had. We turned over
19 some medicines, some cigarettes, all the things that we used and all the
20 things that we made ourselves to make our lives a little easier, all the
21 written material that we had prepared, all the books. Anything that we
22 had, they took away.
23 On that day, we did not receive any food. As far as I can
24 remember, we did not receive food on the day when Zekovic escaped, the
25 entire next day, and then the day after, we got only breakfast and we got
1 only half rations compared to the rations we got before, and I think these
2 half rations continued for about a month.
3 Q. And you said that you saw Mr. Krnojelac on other occasions in the
4 KP Dom. Did you ever see him in the evening?
5 A. I think he did come to the administration building of the camp and
6 to the compound in the evenings. I don't remember if I personally saw him
7 within the compound, but I believe he did come.
8 Q. What is the basis of your belief?
9 A. It was the behaviour of the guards who were guarding us. They
10 told us they had to be careful with us because the warden is in the
11 building, as they put it, or within the compound; on the grounds, in
12 fact. That meant that we had to be quiet, that we had to watch our step,
13 that we shouldn't communicate with the guards, et cetera.
14 Q. When was that said? Do you recall when the guards made such
16 A. That happened throughout my stay there. It depended on the
17 guards. Some of them were less brave, some of them were braver, but all
18 of them had this fear of the warden. While I was there, it was true for
19 the entire duration of my stay, so there is no particular period when that
21 Q. You said that the guards had this fear of the warden. Can you be
22 more specific? Did they fear him, or respect him, or how did it -- can
23 you be more specific?
24 A. They were afraid they might make an error, a misstep, and that
25 they would be punished for that misstep by being sent to the front line.
1 There were guards among them who were less brutal, as I would say, and
2 they were unpopular with the warden, and they were afraid of being sent to
3 the front line because of that, so they were afraid.
4 Q. How do you know that those guards who treated you less brutal were
5 unpopular with the warden? How do you know that?
6 A. One of them who was helping us, who helped many of us, was sent to
7 the front line maybe 15 days later, and we noticed immediately that he was
8 no longer around, and we made inquiries about him. But he returned very
10 Sometime, I believe it was the Christmas of 1993, I was in Room
11 18. The guards had gathered in the guards' room in building number 3.
12 They drank all night, sang, and talked among themselves, and I heard that
13 guards Maric and Ivanovic were there. I recognised their voices. You
14 couldn't see anything because it was dark, but I heard their voices.
15 They discussed among themselves the situation in the camp, their
16 positions and the position of the prisoners. It was obvious they'd had
17 quite a lot to drink. And then they quarreled. I heard Guard Maric say
18 the following, I heard him clearly: "What do I care? I didn't beat
19 anyone or kill anyone; you did." And he also said, "Somebody will answer
20 for this."
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This Guard Maric, Your Honour, is the person
22 listed under 103 on the list P-3.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. I'm not sure whether the witness has
24 answered your question yet, but it may be best if we come back to it after
25 the adjournment.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
2 JUDGE HUNT: We still want to know why this is tied in with the
3 accused. Your question was, "How do you know that those guards who
4 treated you less brutally were unpopular with the warden? How do you know
5 that?" Now, we've been told that somebody was sent off to the front line
6 and came back after a short time, but there would need to be, if you want
7 to rely upon this, something more than what the witness has already said.
8 Anyway, we'll come back to it at 11.30. We'll adjourn now.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
11 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid that our delay was caused by the fact that
12 the next witness requires some protective measures and it's rather
13 difficult to organise them for this courtroom, but I think we've got it
14 sorted out.
15 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Witness, before the break, you had mentioned that some guards were
18 unpopular with the warden and they were afraid to be sent to the front
19 line. My question was: How do you know that they were unpopular with the
20 warden? You have given us an example of one who was actually sent to the
21 front line, but can you add to this question to answer this question?
22 A. Excuse me. I think they were strictly prohibited from talking to
23 us and helping us. I was guarded in prison by five of my neighbours who
24 were guards as well.
25 I tried to get in touch with them, but sometimes I did manage to,
1 sometimes I did not. One of them would occasionally give a piece of bread
2 to me on the sly, but he told me that I had to keep quiet about this, that
3 I shouldn't tell anyone about it, that I should be very cautious.
4 Sometimes we only signalled to each other with our eyes, hands,
5 various movements. Sometimes we would actually communicate in words; we
6 would actually have a conversation. However, any communication that
7 existed between me and the guards is something that we tried to keep
8 secret somehow.
9 Q. But how do you know that these guards who were less brutal and who
10 had these forbidden communications, how do you know that they were
11 unpopular with the warden, that is, Mr. Krnojelac?
12 A. My two neighbours told me directly that they were -- that it was
13 forbidden to them to communicate with us and that they could get into
14 trouble if they would give me a slice of bread or something like that.
15 Gojko Jokanovic also repeated that several times. When we tried
16 to stop him somewhere in the compound or to ask him for some kind of help,
17 he would just wave his hand and say, "I can't. I can't. Go away. Please
18 don't get me into trouble," things like that.
19 Q. But how do you know that Mr. Krnojelac was actually the one who
20 would be involved in consequences for them? Did they say something like
21 this or is it your conclusion?
22 A. They said directly that they could have trouble with the
23 administration. That's what they said. Not the warden himself but the
24 administration. That pertains to these guards and Gojko himself, that
25 they could get into trouble with the administration.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. You said that one of the guards was actually sent to the front
2 line. Which guard and when did it happen?
3 A. That was the guard who helped me before and who I mentioned
4 earlier on. I don't know exactly when this happened, but we had received
5 information that they were taking shifts at the front line every 15 days.
6 I don't know whether that's true, actually, but I think it's quite
8 Q. You have also described a situation when you heard the Serb guards
9 discuss and drink on Christmas, on Christmas 1993. Do you mean the
10 Orthodox Christmas?
11 A. Yes. I think it was the 6th of January, 1993. I remember that it
12 was Christmas because the next morning we went for breakfast and one of
13 the guards gave me some brandy to drink, a gulp.
14 Q. And you mentioned the guard Maric that you actually heard
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I made a mistake. It's not the
17 guard number 103, it's 102 on the list. 103 is a lady.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
20 Q. And do you know to whom he made this remark, that "you killed"?
21 A. I think that the guard Obrenovic was with them then, and also some
22 other guards, but I'm sure about these two and Obrenovic.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Obrenovic is listed under number
24 46 on P-3.
25 Q. You actually gave this -- told us about this Christmas
1 conversation that you overheard in response, actually, to my question
2 about the less brutal guards and their being unpopular. How does that
3 relate to this issue?
4 A. Are you referring to this case that occurred, or ...
5 Q. No, my question was -- at that point in time my question was how
6 do you know that guards were unpopular with the warden and that they had
7 to go to the front line. And then you told us this incident from
8 Christmas Eve, and I was wondering, how does that relate? Because you
9 gave that as a response to my question. Or is it just that it came to
10 your mind at that point in time?
11 JUDGE HUNT: May I suggest that you ask him whether that guard who
12 gave him the gulp of brandy said something to him of what would happen if
13 that had been found out.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
15 Q. You heard what the Presiding Judge said. Can you answer that?
16 A. I can't answer that because I don't understand any of this. I
17 just can't. I think that these are broader concepts that are involved.
18 It's not easy to answer this question.
19 In my opinion, the most difficult period in the KP Dom was June,
20 July, August, September 1992. This case, this incident that occurred
21 later -- I mean, I think that the situation had changed completely by
22 then. Why? I can't say. I can't say why the situation changed in
23 prison, but I think that there was a differentiation amongst the guards
24 themselves for I don't know what reasons, and I know that they often
25 quarreled among themselves. Those guards who were nicer to us quarreled
1 with those who were more brutal to us. Why that happened, I truly don't
2 know. The situation was probably developing in an unfavourable direction
3 for them.
4 Of course, I know that this Court works according to certain rules
5 and on the basis of proof that is presented. However, the attitude of
6 guards towards prisoners varied. Sometimes it was extremely brutal on the
7 part of individual guards, and sometimes they were softer. That depended
8 on many things, on the situation in the camp and on the situation in
9 general. So I think that you have to view the camp as a whole throughout
10 its existence, not a certain period that is more brutal and another period
11 that is less brutal.
12 Q. Yes, let me stop you here and let's move on. You said that -- no.
13 Did you see Mr. Krnojelac also in the camp on weekends, or was he there
14 during the working days only?
15 A. I can't remember whether he came during the weekend. I cannot say
16 for sure whether he was present during weekends.
17 Q. When you saw him, who -- was he alone, or was usually someone with
18 him, and if so, who?
19 A. He was mainly in the company of two persons. One is Savo Todovic,
20 nicknamed Bunda, and the other one is Mitar Rasevic.
21 Q. What was Mr. Todovic's exact function in the KP Dom, do you know?
22 A. I would say that he was in charge of the detainees and everything
23 that had to do with the detainees. I'm referring to the status in prison,
24 their work, discipline. He was the one who decided who would be in the
25 work group, who would go out, who would work inside, who would work in
1 which part of the building. I think that he was basically the operations
2 man, the person in charge of the operation of the prison. He is the one
3 who decided who would go into solitary confinement, how long he would stay
4 in solitary confinement, and probably who would be beaten, and other
5 things that had to do with prisoners.
6 Q. Did Mr. Todovic, in this function as the operation man, did he
7 have dealings with all detainees, that is, the Serbs and the Muslims?
8 A. I think so. I think so. He was in charge of the Serb prisoners
9 just like he was in charge of the Muslims, the Bosniaks.
10 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him?
11 A. He wore an olive-green/grey uniform, and he wore a sheepskin
12 jacket, the same colour, with a black collar.
13 Q. And when you say "olive-green/grey uniform," do you mean military
15 A. Yes. Yes, it was a military uniform.
16 Q. And you said that you saw Krnojelac together with him. Could you
17 see -- from what you saw, could you make out who was superior, Todovic or
19 A. What do you mean? What do you mean when you say "superior"? In
20 relation to one another was one the superior of the other, or are you
21 referring to something different?
22 Q. Yes. That is exactly what I was referring to, if you could see
23 anything in relation to this.
24 A. I think that Krnojelac was Savo Todovic's superior or, actually,
25 quite directly, I think Todovic carried out Krnojelac's orders or
2 Q. And how did you form this opinion? Did you see anything or is it
3 just their position, their official positions? Did you see, for instance,
4 Krnojelac ordering Todovic?
5 A. No. No. No, not directly, but I think that the organisation of
6 the camp, of the prison, was such.
7 Q. You have already described to us that you had this one occasion
8 with Mr. Todovic after you had taken bread. Did you have -- were there
9 other occasions that you spoke with Mr. Todovic?
10 A. I talked to him on another occasion too. That was in Room 16, the
11 beginning. It could have been September or the autumn of 1992. I was
12 exhausted at the time. I couldn't walk. I was totally exhausted. I
13 vomited several times. I also had diarrhea. I could hardly walk.
14 Through a guard, I asked to talk to him.
15 He talked to me very briefly in building number 3, in the guards'
16 room. He wore an olive-green/grey uniform, and he was also wearing that
17 leather jacket then. I asked him to transfer me to that working group,
18 but he said he couldn't.
19 He primarily talked to me about my brother who was in Sarajevo at
20 the time. He said that my brother is one of the guards or the deputy
21 warden in the Ustasha camp -- Ustasha prison in Sarajevo - that's the way
22 he had put it - and that he was in very active in the Ustasha movement in
23 Sarajevo. I told him, in response to that, that I knew my brother very
24 well and that this is completely false, that these are mere fabrications.
25 We talked on our own. The guard was waiting outside.
1 Q. Why did you want to be transferred to the working group?
2 A. There were two reasons. One was to get a slice of bread. The
3 second one was for me to try to find out what was going on outside,
4 because people who were in the work group managed to get out, which was
5 inconceivable for us then. We called that the information blockade, and
6 that was very hard on me.
7 Q. Were detainees afraid of Mr. Todovic? Were you afraid of him?
8 A. I think that all the prisoners were afraid of him. Whenever he
9 appeared in the compound, we were terrified, and we always watched to see
10 which part of the prison, which building he would go to, and we would
11 always be pleased if we would see that he was not going into our building,
12 because we knew that he had great power and that he could decide on
13 everything that had to do with the prisoners and that he had great
14 influence within the prison.
15 Q. Who was the commander of the guards?
16 A. I think it was Mitar Rasevic.
17 Q. Did you see him in the prison on a daily basis?
18 A. He was there most of the time.
19 Q. And what did he wear?
20 A. I'd say that he changed uniforms. At first he had a military
21 uniform, an olive-green/grey one. Later he changed that uniform for a
22 uniform that was worn by the policemen before the war. Those are those
23 blue uniforms with light-blue shirts.
24 Q. When did he start wearing this blue uniform?
25 A. I think that was -- it could have been 1993, the beginning of
2 Q. Did Mr. Rasevic attend to both the Serb and the Muslim detainees?
3 A. I'm sure that he had something to do with the Muslims; however,
4 I'm not sure about the Serbs.
5 Q. Did you ever talk with Mr. Rasevic while you were detained?
6 A. I talked to him twice, the first time when I was in Room 18.
7 Q. When was that about, approximately?
8 A. It could have been the autumn of 1992. They came every night to
9 take the count of the prisoners, as they had put it. We would line up.
10 The guard on duty would come, and then Mitar Rasevic came with one of the
11 guards. They counted us. He called out to me. He singled me out of the
12 group; he wanted to talk to me.
13 He talked to me very briefly. He mostly talked about the
14 situation in the KP Dom before the war because he was a good friend of my
15 brother's. He said how the Serbs and the Muslims at the KP Dom parted
16 their ways peacefully, and that that was probably thanks to my brother and
17 Radojica Tesovic.
18 I asked him about the possibility of exchanges. He couldn't say
19 anything, neither yes nor no. He did not talk about these things.
20 Q. Can you explain, can you --
21 A. You asked me about the second time too, I think. The second time
22 I talked to him was just before I was taken off for an exchange on the
23 12th of August, 1993. He came into the room. At that time I was in
24 building number 3. He walked in after breakfast, and he said that I
25 should get my things. He said that I was going for an exchange to
1 Sarajevo, and that I should give his regards to my brother.
2 Q. Let me --
3 A. That is all we said.
4 Q. Yes, let me stop you. I would like to need -- I would need an
5 explanation. You said about the first meeting you had with him, you said,
6 at least it's in the transcript, "He said how the Serbs and the Muslims of
7 the KP Dom parted their ways peacefully, and that that was probably thanks
8 to my brother and Radojica Tesovic." Can you explain that? I do not
9 really understand this sentence. What do you mean -- or what did he mean?
10 A. I think that he held my brother in high regard for several
11 reasons. As for the event that he referred to, it actually did take
12 place. I think that he was even at the KP Dom at that time. Sometime in
13 the beginning of April 1992, that is to say, before the conflict broke
14 out, at the KP Dom they had a meeting. The entire staff, the Serbs and
15 the Muslims, talked trying to resolve how they would part, how they would
16 overcome this problem. At any rate, they parted peacefully.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. The police that was there, Serb and -- Serbs and Muslims, they
19 could all decide where they wanted to go. They parted peacefully. They
20 all wore police uniforms, and they could all carry their respective
21 weapons with them.
22 Q. Yes, thank you. We do not need to go into more details. I was
23 just wondering to what Mr. Rasevic was referring. Yes, thank you, but you
24 have clarified the matter.
25 Did you ever complain to him on this occasion when you talked with
1 him on the first occasion, did you complain about the living conditions or
2 the beatings?
3 A. Yes. The first time I talked to him I mentioned it, but he said
4 that was not within his jurisdiction. He said something like this: "That
5 was the jurisdiction of the warden, and the warden was the only one who
6 could decide to improve our position," meaning the possibility of
7 improving the food, availability of medical care, et cetera. But he made
8 it clear that it was not within his jurisdiction.
9 Q. The guards in the KP Dom, were they the regular prison guards from
10 before the war, or were there also other people doing guard duty?
11 A. I think the majority were men who worked in the KP Dom before the
13 Q. What did the guards wear?
14 A. That is a very complex question, really. It depended. In the
15 beginning when the camp was established, when I arrived there in May,
16 June, and even July, August, and September, I would say they wore military
17 uniforms, grey olive, and they carried automatic weapons, in order to
18 switch later to camouflage uniforms. And some of them, for instance --
19 Guard Micevic wore the real Chetnik uniform, including the cap with the
20 cockade. One of the guards, I think it was Milenko Burilo, wore for a
21 while the uniform of the old Yugoslav army. I remember we were wondering
22 where he got hold of that uniform.
23 I believe after the new year in 1993, in January, they switched
24 back to the uniforms worn by the police before the war in the KP Dom.
25 When I went to be exchanged in August 1993, I remember they wore the blue
1 uniforms worn before the war by the staff, the guards of the KP Dom.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person mentioned is
3 Micevic. He is not on the list of the staff members, P-3, and Burilo is
4 number 56.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
7 Q. The guards, did they attend to all the detainees, that is, the
8 Serbs and the Muslims, or were certain guards only dealing with the Serbs
9 and others only with the Muslims?
10 A. They were in charge of all the prisoners, both groups. I know
11 that because the same guard opened the doors of our rooms and led us out
12 to have our meals, and he also led out the Serbian prisoners.
13 Q. The guards, did they always work on the same post or did the same
14 guards sometimes work in the prisoners' quarters or in the administration
15 building? Did they switch? Do you know that?
16 A. I think they only changed the schedule, the duty roster, within
17 the compound, and some guards did not work in the administrative building
18 at all. They did not perform any administrative duties.
19 Q. Could you, for instance, say where Burilo worked? What was his
20 special post, if you are able to say so?
21 A. I could not precisely define his workplace. I think he spent most
22 of his time in the compound. I don't think, for instance, he was in
23 charge of buildings 1, 2, or 3. He walked around the camp.
24 Q. And the guard Obrenovic that you also mentioned, where did he
25 work? What did you see -- in which posts did you see him?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 A. Guard Obrenovic was mainly in charge of building number 2. While
2 I was there in Room 16 and 18, he would often come to unlock the door and
3 take us out. And when I was in Room 16, sometime at the end of June or
4 July, he came to me in Room 16 to ask for crutches for Zijad Subasic. I
5 had some crutches, and he took them from me, saying that he needed them.
6 In any case, he spent most of his time in the guards' room in building
7 number 2, although I believe it depended on their duty roster.
8 Q. You have described to us various beatings, especially the beatings
9 in the second half of June 1992. Did you observe guards being involved in
10 these beatings? Would you be able to name guards who were involved in
12 A. I think the guards who took out prisoners in that period were the
13 same guards who beat them, mainly in solitary cells in the administrative
14 building. We could only hear cries for help and voices of both the guards
15 and the victims. We could not see clearly through the windows which
16 guards they were - we couldn't recognise them - but we could see through
17 the window - and I did on several occasions - arms being raised to hit
18 someone either with a hand or with a baton, but we couldn't tell which
19 guards they were. I think it is difficult to claim with any degree of
20 certainty as to who they were.
21 Q. Do you remember the guards who took out these particular
23 A. Yes, I remember the guards well. I believe Obrenovic took out a
24 large number of detainees; that a guard whom we called Zuti, which means
25 yellow, and his name was Dragan, took out a group of people, calling out
1 names from a list, and he did not appear for a while in the prison.
2 Q. When you say he did not appear for a while in the prison, does
3 that mean when the beatings started he did not appear or do you actually
4 mean a real time period, weeks? What do you mean by "a while"?
5 A. He read out the names and took out this group of people in
6 mid-September 1992. He took them to the so-called plum picking, and after
7 that, he didn't appear in the prison for two months. It was our
8 conclusion that he had gone with that group. We couldn't understand why
9 he wasn't in the prison any more. That's the period I'm talking about.
10 In June 1992, prisoners were mainly taken out by guards who were
11 on shift at the time. I said earlier that I remember that Dragan
12 Obrenovic had taken out a large number of people. Another guard was
13 Vlatko Pljevaljcic.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have already mentioned Obrenovic. It's
15 the person 46 on the list. And Pljevaljcic is number 35.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. You have already mentioned that Rasevic told you, you would be
19 exchanged, and you have already mentioned that you were taken out of the
20 KP Dom on the 12th of August, 1993. At that time was Mr. Krnojelac, was
21 he still the warden, do you know; that is, on the 12th of August?
22 A. I'm sure that the warden was still in place at the time. He was
23 present when Ekrem Zekovic had escaped and was captured. It was July
24 1993, which means a month before my departure from the KP Dom, and at that
25 time Krnojelac was still there.
1 Q. Did you actually see him before you left the KP Dom? In this last
2 couple of days that you were in the KP Dom, was he still there? Did you
3 see him?
4 A. No, not personally.
5 Q. Were you taken out of the KP Dom alone, or in a group of people?
6 A. I was taken out. I was taken away alone.
7 Q. And where were you taken?
8 A. They took me to the Kula prison near Sarajevo.
9 Q. And when you say "they," whom do you mean?
10 A. There were two men in military uniforms, armed. They put me in a
11 police vehicle, Volkswagon Golf. When they put me in the back seat of the
12 car, one of them introduced himself. He said, "My name is Zeljko
13 Samardzic, and I'm a Chetnik from Bileca." The other one said his name
14 was Trivun. He didn't say his last name.
15 Q. And who handed you over to the soldiers?
16 A. It was guard Micevic. I was waiting to be taken for this exchange
17 in that room in the reception area. I waited for about an hour, and it
18 was guard Micevic who turned me over.
19 Q. And how long did you stay in Kula?
20 A. Exactly a month.
21 Q. And the conditions in Kula, were they similar to what you had
22 experienced in Foca, or were they different?
23 A. At that time in Kula there was more food than in Foca.
24 Q. Were you -- after this month, were you exchanged in a group or
25 again as a single person?
1 A. I was exchanged on the 12th of September, 1993, at night-time in
2 the area of the Jewish cemetery. I was exchanged for an elderly married
3 couple and a Serb from Foca.
4 Q. You have already described how you suffered while you were
5 detained in the KP Dom. You have described your mental suffering and your
6 physical suffering. Did you suffer any permanent mental or physical harm
7 or, at least, some longer lasting after your release? Did you experience
9 A. I think that is difficult to describe now. There are two things
10 which are a consequence of all that I had gone through at the camp. My
11 physical health is very good and very stable, fortunately. I believe that
12 there is a form of PTSD, post-traumatic stress syndrome, or the Vietnam
13 syndrome as doctors refer to it, and in that respect I'm no exception
14 compared to other detainees.
15 But I'm suffering from another thing which has developed in my
16 conscience as a result of my experience and suffering, and that is an
17 undefiable desire to live and for better things in life, and an awareness
18 that about 400 people who had been in the camp are missing, that they're
19 no longer alive, and that their bodies will be revealed, found one day.
20 Those are, perhaps, the thoughts that help me to preserve my sanity.
21 Q. Dr. Berberkic, you said that you suffered post-traumatic stress
22 syndrome. What did you actually -- what did you suffer? What did you
24 JUDGE HUNT: What are his symptoms?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.
1 Q. What were the symptoms that you personally noticed to have?
2 A. I suffer from a mental block in my thought process, and you may
3 have noticed this. It tends to appear suddenly. I cannot predict when it
4 will appear; it simply occurs. It may be caused, triggered, by something.
5 I still have this fear when I see a police uniform or when I see a
6 pistol. That happened to me both in Sarajevo, it keeps happening in the
7 country where I live now, and it happened to me in this country and in
8 this building, as a matter of fact.
9 As for the traumatic experiences from the camp and what I have
10 survived, of course I have flashbacks. But I wouldn't say, however, that
11 my PTS syndrome is as pronounced as in some people with whom I have met
12 later and who suffer much worse, and the reason why it is not that
13 pronounced is precisely what I said about wanting to live, wanting to
14 experience better things in life, and to transform my wartime experiences
15 and experiences from the camp into something better, something more
17 Q. Thank you, Dr. Berberkic.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are the questions that the Prosecution
20 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination.
21 Mr. Bakrac, do you mind if I try explaining to the witness about
22 the pause and see how we go?
23 Doctor, you've noticed that when you have been listening to the
24 translation in the earphones there that counsel who is asking you the
25 questions has stopped speaking some time before the translation finishes.
1 That's because the translators or the interpreters work about half a
2 sentence behind the speaker.
3 Now, you are going to be cross-examined by somebody who speaks the
4 same language as you, and you will be able to hear the question in your
5 own language. You won't have to wait for the translation, but the
6 translators still have to keep on translating for us.
7 So when you have heard the question from Mr. Bakrac here, would
8 you please pause to enable the translators to catch up, the same as they
9 were able to do so when you were pausing, waiting to answer the
10 questions. So let's give them a chance to keep up with us and with you
11 before you answer the question.
12 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Berberkic. This Trial Chamber has already told
15 you my name, but I wish to introduce myself, nevertheless. My name is
16 Mihajlo Bakrac, and I am one of the defenders of the accused, Mr. Milorad
18 I will ask you a number of questions, and the Trial Chamber
19 already explained that we should pause between questions and answers.
20 First of all, I wish to ask you: Do you remember that on the
21 14th and 15th of December, 1998, you gave a statement to the Office of the
23 A. [No translation]
24 Q. I'm sorry. Perhaps I'll make this easier for you, and we'll
25 proceed more quickly if I explain that this is the date of the interview,
1 and the date when you signed it is the 7th of September, 1999. Do you
2 remember that?
3 A. I gave several statements. If that is the date that you have,
4 it's probably accurate.
5 Q. Yes, sir. I was just going to tell you that -- to ask you whether
6 on the 16th of September, 1993, you gave another statement to the security
7 services centre in Sarajevo.
8 A. I believe that too is accurate.
9 Q. Were those statements read out to you and did you sign them
11 A. I read those statements, and I signed them of my own free will.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. Is it true that in your first
13 statement, in the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's office, you
14 said that you performed your job before the war in the hospital and only
15 after the war you began to support the Muslim cause? Is it true that you
16 said that in your statement?
17 A. I remember what I said very well. I was asked whether I was a
18 member of the SDA. I said that I was not a member of any political party,
19 the SDA included.
20 As for the question whether I support the SDA, I said that I was a
21 supporter, and I think that you can interpret that any way you want.
22 Q. Mr. Berberkic, the point of my questions is not for me to
23 interpret things but for you to ascertain what you mean by "the Muslim
24 cause." I looked at the English translation, which says that you became
25 involved as a person supporting the Muslim cause. I'm asking you what
1 this means. I don't want to infer anything. That is why I'm putting
2 these questions to you.
3 A. I never used the term "the Muslim cause," never.
4 Q. Mr. Berberkic, would it be helpful if I gave this to you? If my
5 understanding is correct, you speak English. Perhaps I could give you the
6 B/C/S version and the English version so that you can see it. You said
7 that you read it and signed it voluntarily. Is it necessary for me to
8 show this to you, actually?
9 A. Yes, you can show it to me.
10 JUDGE HUNT: While that's being done, Mr. Bakrac, I don't want to
11 sound like a broken record about this, but you know how these statements
12 are taken. They're taken in B/C/S and translated into English, recorded
13 into English. The witness signs the English version and then it is, for
14 some reason, translated back into B/C/S by somebody else and that's the
15 document you're given. So precise wording such as "the Muslim cause,"
16 goes through two sets of interpretations. It's not really of great
17 importance to us.
18 I accept what you say. Those words appear in the English
19 version. That doesn't mean he used those words or even the precise words
20 in B/C/S.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I know, Your Honour, but then we
22 really have a big problem here.
23 JUDGE HUNT: We've had that --
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence has a big problem, you
25 see, because everything we believe is --
1 JUDGE HUNT: So do we. I mean it's something which, when I first
2 found out this is the way the OTP took its statements, I said they should
3 do something about changing it. Whether they ever have, I don't know. We
4 haven't got up to any trials raised in statements that were taken after I
5 first came here. But it is an absurd way in which the OTP takes the
6 statements. We've pointed it out. We've pointed out the difficulties.
7 But we're faced with the fact that that's the way they were taken in this
9 I realise that even you have and we have the same one, but I don't
10 think that you are assisting us or your client by dwelling upon precise
11 words in the document which were signed. That's all I'm trying to point
12 out to you. You show it to him if you wish to, but I don't want to waste
13 too much time on it.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. But sometimes
15 a mistranslation or a misspoken sentence can have an entirely different
16 meaning, so that's the reason. However, with your permission, in order to
17 save time - and I don't think that the witness is bringing into question
18 the fact that I'm telling the truth - could the witness just explain as
19 briefly as possible what he meant by all of this, and I hope that we will
20 save time that way.
21 I believe that nobody is bringing this into question, including
22 the Prosecutor, I mean, that what I read is true. Let the witness just
23 explain what he meant when he said that, and we will deal with that very
24 briefly, and then move on.
25 JUDGE HUNT: And if I may also remind you, it doesn't seem to help
1 us very much. He voted for the -- as I recall, he voted for the separate
2 state. What does that tell us? Does it mean we disbelieve his evidence?
3 You know, you proceed. I think we're probably wasting more time
4 discussing it. You ask him what he meant -- well, you asked him what his
5 political views were. That's what you're really after, isn't it?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Then I'm going to
7 move on to my next question which may actually be related to this.
8 Q. When you left the hospital, did you join the Muslim forces in any
10 A. When I left the hospital, I went to Ustikolina twice. That's a
11 place that's about 11 kilometres downstream on the left bank of the Drina.
12 I went to the clinic where my colleagues worked. I got a sack full of
13 medicines from the doctor who worked there, and I gave all of this to my
14 neighbours in case they might need it.
15 I'm not trying to hide this. I said this during my questioning.
16 I voted for an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was not a member of the
17 SDA or of any political party, nor do I ever intend to be one in my life,
18 although I come from a political family. My only intention and desire in
19 life, and that's the way I behaved in the hospital as well and in the
20 beginning of the war, is to help people, regardless of who they are.
21 Q. Sir, if you allow me, and I believe that the Court will allow me
22 to do this as well, could you please answer my question specifically. I
23 have to ask you that. My question is, did you try to organise a clinic in
25 A. No.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. Sir, is it correct that in your statement on page 3 you said, "I
2 helped the TO, the Territorial Defence, in Ustikolina to organise a
3 clinic. From there I took a bag full of medicines and bandages to the
4 units that were guarding the hills near the Drina in an area called Krcino
6 A. I just took the medicines to these people, but I did not organise
7 the clinic in Ustikolina.
8 Q. So what I read out to you is not correct?
9 A. I was only once at the clinic in Ustikolina. I did not organise
10 the clinic in Ustikolina. I have to repeat this to you once again. I
11 don't know how that got into that statement.
12 Q. Is it correct that from this clinic in Ustikolina, you took a bag
13 full of medicines and bandages to an area on the right bank of the Drina,
14 an area called Krcino Brdo?
15 A. That is correct, that is absolutely correct. I repeated that to
16 you before.
17 Q. Did you take part in combat when you took these medicines to the
18 units there?
19 A. No, never.
20 Q. How come you were issued a pistol with two belts of ammunition?
21 A. In order to possibly protect myself or kill myself.
22 Q. What does that mean, to protect yourself?
23 A. I think that a pistol is not a weapon with which you can kill
24 others in war, in conditions of war.
25 Q. Tell me, sir, what's the calibre of that pistol?
1 A. I think it was a Duga Devetka, a long-barrelled 9. I don't really
2 know what that means.
3 Q. You don't know how to use a gun, a pistol?
4 A. I think that was the first time in my life that I had a pistol in
5 my hands.
6 Q. Do you know how to use this pistol?
7 A. I knew how to put the clip inside.
8 Q. Only that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What about the binoculars, did you have those binoculars before
11 the war, or were you issued these binoculars together with the pistol?
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the answer,
13 who the binoculars belonged to before the war.
14 JUDGE HUNT: You may not have heard that. The interpreters are
15 not clear as to just who it was the witness said the binoculars belonged
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I heard that the witness answered
18 that the binoculars belonged to his father before the war.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you would just ask him that directly so as
20 we've got an answer on the record. Thank you.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Berberkic, who did the binoculars that you used belong to, as
23 you said during the examination-in-chief?
24 A. The binoculars belonged to my father. The binoculars were
25 obtained before the war, some ten years before the war, I think.
1 Q. Before the war conflict broke out, did the Muslims have some kind
2 of organisation, and were they getting ready for what was to take place?
3 A. I think that they did have some kind of organisation, but I did
4 not participate in any political type of organising, and I think that they
5 were very bad at organisation, regrettably.
6 Q. Why do you say "regrettably"?
7 A. Because everybody has the right to defend his or her state from a
8 possible attack.
9 Q. Are you trying to say that this was not the state of the Serbs
10 from that area?
11 A. Of course it was always the state of the Serbs. I know that well
12 and you know that well.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. Yesterday during the
14 examination-in-chief or, rather, the day before yesterday, you said that
15 on the day of the outbreak of the conflict you had set out for the
16 hospital and you came across some roadblocks. Where were these
18 A. The first roadblock was in Donja Polje - that's a part of town
19 that's called that - and the other roadblock was near the KP Dom at the
20 bridge called Donja Drinski Most.
21 Q. Mr. Berberkic, is it correct that you said that you came across a
22 Muslim who wore a TO uniform, a Territorial Defence uniform?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Can you explain this to us? What kind of a uniform is this, a TO
1 A. I think those are the police uniforms from before the war, blue
3 Q. You said that it was primarily Muslims there. Did you see a
4 single Serb at that roadblock?
5 A. No, I didn't see any.
6 Q. What about the other roadblock by the bridge on the Drina, who
7 held that roadblock?
8 A. I didn't notice any men there. There was only one truck there and
9 it was hard to pass by. However, I didn't notice any armed men or anybody
10 in general. I didn't notice any.
11 Q. Was that the road leading to the hospital, this road that goes by
12 the KP Dom?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you said, or at least that's the
15 way I understood you, that when the conflicts broke out up to the 20th,
16 when -- until the Serb -- until the Serb military came to the hospital,
17 there were no Serb doctors or staff at the hospital. Is that correct?
18 A. I did not express myself that way. I said that most of the things
19 that were done at the hospital, and I mentioned specifically which wards I
20 was referring to, were carried out by Muslim doctors and nurses. However,
21 there were Serb doctors and nurses too. And I never made a statement to
22 that effect, that there were no Serb doctors or nurses in the hospital.
23 Q. What about patients, only Muslims or also Serbs?
24 JUDGE HUNT: While the witness is waiting to answer that question,
25 may I remind you, Mr. Bakrac, you have to pause too. You're coming in
1 well and truly before the end of the translation, I'm afraid. I know it's
2 difficult, but do try.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
4 A. Patients in the hospital at that time were both Serbs and Muslims,
5 and there were probably others as well. Probably there were some Croats
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned a person called Adnan Isanovic,
9 that he was wounded in the chest and that Dr. Torlak said to you that due
10 to the bleeding in his chest, he had to be operated on urgently. You said
11 that after that, you heard that this person was shot behind the hospital.
12 Do you know whether the surgery was actually performed or not?
13 A. I don't think it was performed, but I'm not absolutely sure about
14 that. I saw him only once. I talked to him. That's what I stated. But
15 I think the surgery was not performed, although I repeat I'm not
16 absolutely sure about that.
17 Q. After you discussed this with Dr. Torlak and Isanovic, how many
18 days later did the Serb army take the hospital?
19 A. I can't remember exactly how many days had gone by.
20 Q. Can you tell me, since you said just now that it is primarily the
21 Muslim medical staff that was working at the hospital, why was this person
22 not operated on?
23 A. I can't tell you exactly because I don't know whether surgery was
24 performed on him at all or not; that is to say, I don't know why surgery
25 was not performed on him, if it was not, nor do I know who operated on him
1 if there was an operation. I said I talked to him only once and that
2 surgery was needed, but whether it was actually done, why not and why yes,
3 I really don't know. I can't say that.
4 Q. Mr. Berberkic, you're a doctor. If his chest -- if there was
5 bleeding in his chest, how long could he go on without an operation?
6 A. It depends on the blood vessel that was injured, which part of the
7 chest too, and how fast blood is flowing into the chest cavity. However,
8 at any rate, if the patient has breathing problems, surgery has to be
10 Q. Thank you, Dr. Berberkic. You said that in the village of
11 Josanica, joint guards were organised. Did you take part in this guard
13 A. No. No. I never stood guard in my life except in the former
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps my question is
16 going to be a longish one and it may require a lengthy answer, so perhaps
17 this would be a good time to pause.
18 JUDGE HUNT: That would be a good idea. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.
19 We'll resume again at 2.30.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Berberkic, can you follow me? Are your headphones on?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Before the break we talked about Josanica. You told me you were
7 not on guard duty, in response to my question. In the area of Josanica,
8 were there Territorial Defence units consisting of Muslims? Do you know
10 A. I believe there was a group of people, about 40 of them, but I
11 don't know how they called themselves.
12 Q. Will you agree with me that you said in your statement there were
13 60 of them?
14 A. I believe that's possible. Yes, maybe 60.
15 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you said that on the day you
16 were wounded you were on your way searching for your relative, and that is
17 how you got wounded. Is that true?
18 A. I was looking for my brother and for my brother-in-law.
19 Q. I should like to remind you, Mr. Berberkic, that in the statement
20 you gave to the OTP, you stated that you were wounded when you were on
21 your way trying to locate people from the Territorial Defence. Which of
22 the two is true? And you also said that you had got lost in the woods.
23 A. I was trying to find my brother and my brother-in-law who were in
24 the woods and I got lost, that much is true; but I don't know whether they
25 were members of the Territorial Defence.
1 Q. You don't know whether your own brother and brother-in-law were
2 members of the Territorial Defence? Isn't that a bit odd?
3 A. I think that at that moment, the Territorial Defence did not exist
4 as an organised group of people in that area.
5 Q. You just said there were about 60 people, so you allowed the
6 possibility that there were 60 men organised as Territorial Defence in
7 that area.
8 A. I think it was a group of people who were trying to defend
9 themselves. How they called themselves, I really cannot say.
10 Q. When you were wounded, was there your brother or your
11 brother-in-law with you, or were you alone?
12 A. I wasn't alone. Aziz Merkez was with me -- I'm sorry, it's not
13 Aziz, it's Halim Merkez. There was my brother-in-law, Nedzad.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last name of
16 A. And Dzahid Spahicanin, but my brother wasn't there.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. The interpreter didn't hear the last
18 name of the second person -- I'm sorry, the third person you referred to,
19 Nedzad. What is the last name that you used?
20 A. The last name is Delic, Nedzad Delic.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
22 Please, Mr. Bakrac.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Those persons who were with you when you were wounded, were they
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you were wounded, who did you give your pistol to?
3 A. I gave it to my brother-in-law.
4 Q. To Nedzad Delic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were they arrested the same day as you were?
7 A. I believe they were.
8 Q. Sir, since you are from Josanica, do you know what happened to the
9 Serbian population on the 19th of September [as interpreted], 1992?
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] There's a mistake in the transcript.
11 19th of December, not September.
12 A. I was then imprisoned in the KP Dom, but I heard there was an
13 operation, an attack on Josanica, and a large number of Serbian civilians
14 were killed. That is what I was told by the guards in the KP Dom.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Berberkic, you mentioned that you watched the incident in
17 Filipovici in the barracks through the binoculars. You said that four to
18 five persons were killed on that occasion, executed by a firing squad. Is
19 that true?
20 A. What I stated precisely is that four or five persons were singled
21 out and that I heard shots. Whether they were killed at that moment, that
22 I don't know.
23 Q. Where did you watch that from?
24 A. From the village of Kradazici, which is on the right bank of the
25 Drina River, and it is on the same level as the military facility in
2 Q. Did you see where those five or four persons were taken to.
3 A. They were taken behind the barracks, behind the military
5 Q. In your statement to the OTP, did you state that you heard later
6 that some of them had run away, some of the people who were taken behind
7 the barracks?
8 A. Yes, that's true. I later heard that one of those who were to be
9 shot had survived, had run away.
10 Q. In your statement, you said it was more than one.
11 A. I think one person survived, but, of course, people tell stories.
12 Somebody says it's one, another person will say it's two, but I believe
13 one person survived.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. We will now move on to the role of the accused,
15 Krnojelac, in the KP Dom. I will read out to you a part of your statement
16 given to the OTP. On page 5 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 6 - and today
17 in your examination-in-chief you also mentioned two prisoners with the
18 same first and last names, that is, Dzevad Lojo - you said you had heard
19 from them that the warden of the KP Dom was Milorad Krnojelac, and that he
20 was the one in charge of you.
21 "In my room there were two detainees called Dzevad Lojo. Both of
22 them had talked to Krnojelac. I believe that was in the summer of 1992,
23 about three or four months after my arrival at the KP Dom. These two men
24 with the last name of Lojo later told me that Krnojelac had told them that
25 he did not control the situation and that the military command decided
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 everything. He said that the staff of the prison was in the service of
2 the military command and that he could not help, but he promised to
3 improve the living conditions of the camp."
4 Can you please tell us which things -- which of the things are
5 true? What is true, what you said in your examination-in-chief or what
6 you stated to the OTP?
7 A. What does "OTP" mean?
8 Q. It is the Office of the Prosecutor.
9 A. When did I give this statement?
10 Q. You gave this statement to the Prosecutor's office on the 14th and
11 15th of December, 1998, and the date of reading is the 7th of September,
13 A. There are some illogical things here. With me in the room there
14 was Dzevad Lojo, the director of the mine in Miljevina, who was closer --
15 who knew Krnojelac better from before the war. The other man was not
16 together with me in the room at the time, and I'm speaking about Room 16.
17 Q. Sir, today once again you mentioned the two men with the same
18 first and last names from whom, as you said, you received information
19 about the administration of the KP Dom.
20 A. Yes, but at that moment Dzevad Lojo, the director of Maglic, was
21 not with me in the room. I later met him in another room. I believe that
22 was in Room 18.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you are not pausing before answering or
24 questioning, and you are making it very difficult for the interpreters, so
25 please remember that.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The essence of my question, sir, is not whether he was in the room
3 with you. I just read out to you what you stated as having learned from
4 both these men. I'm asking you what is true, what you said today in your
5 examination-in-chief or the statement you gave to the Office of the
7 A. I said quite clearly that I got this information from one and from
8 the other, but at that moment they were not in my room. All I have here
9 is the information I gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on this
10 transcript of mine, but at this moment I cannot remember exactly what I
11 said earlier today. And you are asking me to say in detail what I said
12 today as opposed to what I said two years ago, and to define any
13 difference there may be between the two.
14 Q. Maybe I'll try to make my question easier. What I read in your
15 statement, is it true that you said that to the Office of the Prosecutor?
16 A. I believe that is true.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Also, you said earlier today that you used to see
18 Milorad Krnojelac in daytime, in the afternoon, very often in the
19 evenings, and twice when there were alerts. I will read out to you a part
20 of your statement.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, objection.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Maybe I misunderstood or the translation was
24 wrong, but the witness never said that he saw Krnojelac in the evenings.
25 He said he only heard from the judges -- sorry, from the guards, from the
1 guards that he was supposed to be there. He never said during his direct
2 examination that he saw him in the evening, just on the contrary.
3 JUDGE HUNT: That may be so. It's certainly my recollection that
4 he did not refer to having seen him himself, but if you've got something
5 in the transcript, please let us know.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] If you allow us, my colleague
7 Mr. Vasic will try to find it. That is, at least, what we heard. Maybe
8 it's a matter of interpretation. But I should like to read a very short
9 sentence to the witness, and he will confirm whether it is accurate or
11 Q. "I saw him in the prison only during the day. Sometimes in the
12 evening when there were test alerts he was also present." So here in the
13 statements you say explicitly that you saw him only during the day. Do
14 you stand by that?
15 A. I stand by what I said, that I saw him during the day at various
16 times of the day, in the morning, around lunch, and in the afternoon, but
17 I did not see him on any night.
18 Q. Why didn't you say in any of your statements so far that it was
19 the guards who drew your attention to the fact that Milorad Krnojelac was
20 around since you were talking about the subject anyway?
21 A. I must tell you that no one asked me directly where and from whom
22 I got the information that he visited the camp during the night. No one
23 ever asked me that question in any of the sessions.
24 Q. I agree, sir, but they did ask you when Milorad Krnojelac was
25 present in the KP Dom. Why didn't you mention that he came during the
1 night as well, if you had such information?
2 A. I must say that I believe primarily what I see so that I couldn't
3 answer this question otherwise at that moment. I think that is very
4 simple, a very common sense answer.
5 Q. Can you please tell me who those two guards were who told you that
6 Milorad Krnojelac was also present during the night.
7 A. I can name at least two.
8 Q. Yes, please.
9 A. Those are the guards with whom I could talk, [redacted] and
11 JUDGE HUNT: I have found, I think, the passage that you may have
12 been thinking of at page 27 of today's transcript.
13 Q. And you said that you saw Mr. Krnojelac on other
14 occasions in the KP Dom. Did you ever see him in the
16 A. I think he did come to the compound in the evenings. I
17 don't remember it. I don't remember if I personally saw
18 him within the compound, but I believe he did come.
19 He was asked what the basis of his belief was, and he went on to
20 describe that the guards were always more careful when he was in the
22 I think that's the only one. I don't think he ever said what you
23 suggested he said, but if you can find another one, you tell me.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I owe you an apology,
1 JUDGE HUNT: Not to me. No, you proceed.
2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Is it true, sir, that in your statements given to the Office of
4 the Prosecutor you mentioned conversations with Mitar Rasevic as well?
5 A. I think that is true.
6 Q. You told us today about the subject of these conversations.
7 However, I will tell you what you said to the Office of the Prosecutor on
8 page 8 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 1: "Rasevic sometimes talked about
9 my brother. Sometimes Rasevic would say that he received orders from the
10 command. I heard that the military commander was someone named Kovac.
11 The father of the two detained brothers Cemo tried to organise their
12 exchange. He communicated with Kovac through ham radio. The brothers
13 received a message to the effect that their father was unable to organise
14 the exchange due to problems with Commander Kovac."
15 You said today, and you never said this before, that Rasevic had
16 told you that it was in the jurisdiction of the warden. Which is true?
17 A. What I stated today is more accurate than what is written here. I
18 remember very well my conversation with Rasevic on both occasions, and
19 what I stated today is the truth. I think, however, that he tried or,
20 rather, it was through him that this conversation with the Cemo brothers
21 took place. I don't know how it came about that I apparently stated that
22 some Kovac was a military commander. I don't remember ever stating
23 anything like that.
24 Q. You don't remember that?
25 A. No, I don't.
1 Q. I will try to refresh your memory, sir. You didn't mention him
2 just once. And you also said today that you spoke to Gojko, the nurse. I
3 will read out to you the end of the second paragraph on the same page:
4 "Gojko, the nurse, said that anything that was done in the prison
5 required permission of Commander Kovac."
6 Is it helpful to you? Did it refresh your memory or do you
7 continue to maintain that you never said this?
8 A. Is there a date to it when Gojko said this? Is any date mentioned
9 in the statement? I remember very well stating to the Office of the
10 Prosecutor that on one occasion I asked Gojko to help us improve the
11 situation and help us with the treatment of detainees, especially elderly
12 ones, and he said that he was not in a position to and that the
13 administration of the prison did not allow it. However, I don't remember
14 this part. I think something is wrong.
15 Q. What is wrong? You didn't say this and the Office of the
16 Prosecutor wrote it of their own accord or what?
17 A. I believe this is a complete misunderstanding. There was a ham
18 radio amateur by the name of Kovac who tried to organise this exchange,
19 but I don't recall any Commander Kovac.
20 Q. So you stated that Gojko, the nurse, said that anything that was
21 done in the prison could be done only with the permission of the
22 commander, Kovac. And who was this ham radio operator then? Where is the
23 logic in it?
24 If I try to tell you, just in order to refresh your memory, that
25 the commander of the Foca Tactical Group was named Kovac, would you still
1 stand by your claim that it was a ham radio operator?
2 A. Then there are two men with the last name of Kovac and one of them
3 is a ham radio operator for sure, and he tried to organise the exchange of
4 the Cemo brothers. Then both of the brothers were in the same room with
5 me, and they told me about it.
6 As for Colonel Kovac or whatever, it's probably some kind of
7 confusion with names or a misunderstanding of some kind, whatever.
8 Q. Sir, let's have a look at the transcript. "I never said Colonel
10 How did you get that one, that it was a Colonel Kovac? Actually,
11 he is a colonel, but I was wondering how come you came up with that if
12 you're not aware of it.
13 A. I repeat once again that I know about a ham radio operator Kovac
14 who was working on this exchange, and I think that he was some kind of a
15 mountaineer before or something like that and that he came to the camp to
16 work on this exchange. As for a Colonel Kovac, I don't know whether any
17 such person exists. I don't know. Maybe this person introduced himself
18 as "Colonel." I really don't have any idea.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I just want to point out that, actually,
22 counsel mentioned Colonel Kovac at least --
23 JUDGE HUNT: He certainly referred to him as "Commander." I don't
24 remember a "Colonel," but I haven't gone all the way through. Have you
25 got a reference to it?
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sorry, Your Honour. We have just found the
2 point, but it's actually the witness mentioning it. Sorry.
3 JUDGE HUNT: All right.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. By your leave, Your
5 Honour, just one more question in relation to this because we aren't
6 getting anywhere.
7 Q. I should just once again read out very briefly a clear sentence
8 which shows that there is no confusion.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down. The
10 interpreters cannot follow him.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Slow down, please.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. From time to time Rasevic would say he was getting orders from the
14 command. I heard that the military commander was a certain Kovac. I
15 don't see what is not clear here.
16 A. I have to repeat once again that I talked to Enver Cemo and to the
17 other Cemo.
18 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about Enver Cemo. I'm asking you about
19 what you said concerning this conversation with Rasevic. Can you answer
20 me about that, or not?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I have to object again.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In his previous statement, the witness did
24 not mention that Mr. Rasevic spoke about Kovac. The witness actually
25 said, "Sometimes Rasevic mentioned that he got orders from the command. I
1 heard that a certain Kovac was the military commander. The father of the
2 two detained brother Cemo tried to arrange an exchange for his sons."
3 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please slow down.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, sorry, yes.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Everybody who reads always speeds up, it's a very
6 natural reaction, but it creates havoc for the interpreters, and the
7 typists, I should think.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: "The father of the two detained brothers Cemo
9 tried to arrange an exchange for his sons. He communicated with Kovac
10 with the help of a radio amateur." That is what I would point out.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that's something which probably is something
12 more in re-examination.
13 But nevertheless, where are we getting with this? It seems to me,
14 if I may say so, Mr. Bakrac, you're doing the very thing that I was trying
15 to stop Mr. Vasic from doing yesterday, and that is going through every
16 minor little variation in the statements, between that and the evidence.
17 It really doesn't help us very much unless it relates to a matter of some
18 importance, and you have referred to some matters of importance, but most
19 of these seem to be so much on the periphery of the issues of this case
20 that it is not going to help us that the witness has refined his evidence
21 or he's changed it in a minor way.
22 Do you think we can stick to what are the important issues, and if
23 there's some sort of a variation between his statements and his evidence,
24 you draw them to our attention as they will be important.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am really worried by
1 the fact that this question, the question related to the chain of command,
2 is unimportant. I just wanted to react as my learned friend was reading
3 that there are full stops in between. She read it all together, because
4 there is a full stop after, "I heard that there was a certain Kovac who
5 was a military commander," then it says full stop, and then -- however, if
6 there is any kind of confusion concerning the Cemo brothers, I'm going to
7 put another question which I believe is not confusing.
8 Gojko the nurse said that the consent of commander Kovac was
9 needed for everything that took place in the prison, so there is nothing
10 unclear about this. There's a full stop, and then comes a new paragraph
11 that deals with different questions, so let the witness answer that. Did
12 the OTP not register his statement properly, or what?
13 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know. But you have now, I think, brought us
14 to the issue where it may be important, but we have been travelling a long
15 way to get there. You proceed in relation to the chain of command by all
16 means, but until you read that part out, I'm afraid it seemed to have
17 nothing to do with what we're concerned with.
18 Now if there is some commander or Colonel Kovac who was in charge
19 of the goings on in this KP Dom, you go ahead and establish it, but
20 please, let's get on to that and leave the other immaterial variations to
21 one side.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence will
23 present evidence in this direction during its own case, and that is why we
24 believe that this particular point is so important in re-examination.
25 Q. Sir, I've just read this other sentence of yours to you from your
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 statement. You said that Gojko, the nurse, told you that the permission
2 of commander Kovac was needed for everything that was to be done within
3 the prison.
4 A. Could you please repeat this? When did I give this statement?
5 When did this happen?
6 Q. You gave this statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on the
7 14th and 15th of December, 1998, and the date of reading is the 7th of
8 September, 1999.
9 A. I cannot confirm the accuracy of this statement.
10 Q. So you never said that to the Office of the Prosecutor?
11 A. Now, in this position, I cannot confirm the accuracy of this
12 statement or, rather, I cannot be sure that I said this in such a way.
13 Q. Dr. Berberkic, I'm going to refresh your memory a bit more now, so
14 I'll put it to you this way. On page 12 of this very same statement, in
15 the second paragraph, the first sentence reads as follows: "In June in
16 1993 when the Red Cross visited the KP Dom, 12 of us were hidden. Enver
17 Cemo saw a list with 12 names. The list had been signed by Marko Kovac."
18 Is it a ham radio operator that signed this list?
19 A. I don't know who this is, but this information is correct, and
20 this statement of mine is absolutely accurate. Who Marko Kovac is,
21 though, I really don't know.
22 Q. Thank you. You said, and you repeated it here also during your
23 examination-in-chief, that Gojko Jokanovic personally told you that he
24 could not help you because the administration would not allow that. Is
25 that correct?
1 A. That is correct, and he repeated that on several occasions, not
2 only once.
3 Q. In your statement on page 7 you said, "A male nurse, a Serb by the
4 name of Gojko, was in charge of us. Dr. Torlak and the other detained
5 physicians asked him for help, but he answered that he was not allowed to
6 help." You did not say here that you talked to him, and you did not say
7 that it was the administration that had forbidden him to help.
8 A. This statement is correct. I don't know why I didn't say it then,
9 but it's not only Dr. Torlak, Dr. Karovic, Dr. Berberkic who talked to
10 Gojko; everybody did. I absolutely assert that I talked to him, and I
11 talked to him several times about it. I said that.
12 And I say once again that he said quite clearly that it was the
13 administration that had forbidden him to help. He used that word quite
14 clearly, the "administration." He did not mention any names, nor did I
15 insist then, because that really would have been a bit too much.
16 Q. Since we are discussing the nurse Jokanovic anyway, you said that
17 detainees went to the clinic and stole medicine. Is that correct?
18 A. That is correct. That was one of the ways in which we managed to
19 keep some medicines for emergency cases. The only way to do this was to
20 hide them away from him so that he would not know that we had these
22 Q. Who took you to the clinic?
23 A. The guards who were on duty, those who were on duty that day.
24 Q. Why did they take you to the clinic if it was forbidden, if Gojko
25 was forbidden to help you? And why was he there every day, anyway, if he
1 was not allowed to help you?
2 A. I really don't know what I could say to that. I have no specific
3 opinion with regard to this question.
4 I think, I think -- I said it earlier on too, that he tried to do
5 everything that was within his power and that he could have got into
6 trouble on account of that. He said to me several times --
7 Q. I'm asking you why you were taken to the clinic. The guards could
8 have told the administration that he was helping you, that you were being
9 taken to the clinic.
10 A. People complained of various illnesses. People needed help
11 badly. I'm talking about the quality of medical assistance. I think that
12 the quality of medical assistance was not adequate or at the level that
13 these detainees deserved. Again, I say that Gojko did everything that was
14 within his power.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. Just tell me something else. Do you know the
16 name of Dr. Dobrilovic? You mentioned Dr. Vladicic, Dr. Kostovic, if I
17 remember well, Dragovic. Do you know the name of Dr. Dobrilovic?
18 A. Dr. Dobrilovic? I think his first name is Milovan.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I think that he came to the prison once or twice, but I cannot
21 remember. I think he was there twice or three times.
22 Q. You said that you thought that these doctors came once a week. Do
23 you allow for the possibility of this having taken place twice a week?
24 A. I think that it was not regular. I don't think that it was twice
25 a week, no.
1 Q. Dr. Berberkic, you said here that you were taken to an isolation
2 cell because of a pair of socks that you had made for yourself; is that
4 A. Correct. That is correct.
5 Q. Why did you never mention that before, neither to the OTP nor to
6 the security centre in Sarajevo? You said that you spent the night in an
7 isolation cell, that is to say, only one night, when there was that
8 incident concerning a slice of bread. You never said this to anyone.
9 A. I repeat once again, they probably did not ask me, and I did not
10 remember at that point in time.
11 Q. Mr. Berberkic, how many times were you in solitary confinement?
12 A. Only once, because of the pair of socks that I had made for
13 myself. This other time, I was not in solitary confinement, and I don't
14 know where that statement came from. Again it's probably a confusion with
15 terms or time or something.
16 Q. You said that Savo Todovic took you to eat when there was this
17 incident with bread.
18 A. Todovic took me to the canteen and said that I could eat. I ate,
19 but I could not eat very much. Then I was taken to an isolation cell.
20 Q. Do you have an answer to this, Dr. Berberkic?
21 A. I was in isolation only once. I think it was because of this pair
22 of socks, or whether it was this other time, I can't define that for you
23 clearly, but I think it was on account of the socks. I'm convinced it was
24 because of this pair of socks. How come it came up here, I really don't
1 Q. A few minutes ago, Mr. Berberkic, we were talking about food. Is
2 it correct that at the time when you were detained in the KP Dom there was
3 a general shortage of food?
4 A. No. No, there were no food shortages.
5 Q. Mr. Berberkic, I am going to read part of your statement to you
6 now. On page 6 of the B/C/S version, the last paragraph, just one
7 sentence: "The fact that we got little food had nothing to do with the
8 fact that there was a general shortage of food."
9 A. You know what I think? I think that the translation into English
10 was wrong or that there was some kind of a language misunderstanding. I
11 said several times that there was enough food, that there was food in
12 storage, that there was flour in the basement of the bakery where we spent
13 one day but that this food had never reached the detainees. I stand by
14 that. I assert that with full responsibility.
15 You put to me a very equivocal question a few minutes ago and it
16 can be interpreted in two different ways, both in terms of yes and in
17 terms of no. You asked me, more or less, whether it was correct. I mean,
18 I don't have to interpret this for you now.
19 I said that there was not a shortage of food. Isn't that right?
20 But you did not say whether this was in prison or in town. You did not
21 ask me that, so please do.
22 Q. Okay, I'll ask you. In town?
23 A. Can you repeat your entire question, please?
24 Q. In the town of Foca, while you were detained, was there a general
25 shortage of food?
1 A. I don't think so.
2 Q. When you spoke about food, you said that in the warehouse of the
3 KP Dom, you saw macaroni and rice and tinned food; is that correct? Does
4 that mean that you never got macaroni or rice or tinned food?
5 A. We got macaroni and rice most of the time. As for tinned food, we
6 did not get tins, especially not anything like ham or salami or something
7 like that. And the quality of food is obvious due to the fact that so
8 many detainees, all the detainees, lost lots of weight.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. You mentioned a person called Mr. Esad
10 Hadzic, and you said that he was carried out wrapped in a blanket, that he
11 had died due to an ulcer perforation. Did he die in the hospital or the
12 KP Dom?
13 A. I talked to Dr. Torlak, when he was transferred to my room, about
14 Esad Hadzic. I think that he had had an ulcer perforation sometime in the
15 afternoon - that's what Torlak told me - and that he was carried to
16 hospital only the next morning. So it is probable that he died in the
18 Q. When you talked about the incident in the yard with the soldiers,
19 you said that you think that these were soldiers from Bileca and that you
20 understood that because of the way they spoke. What is the distance
21 between Foca and Bileca in kilometres?
22 A. I don't know what the distance is in terms of kilometres, but I
23 know that there are differences in speech. I was sure that these were not
24 Focans. I assumed, on the basis of their accent, that they could have
25 been from Herzegovina.
1 Q. So people from Herzegovina speak with a different accent than
2 people from Foca?
3 A. There is a difference.
4 Q. How long did this incident last?
5 A. I think that all of that lasted for about ten minutes, perhaps,
6 but not longer than that.
7 Q. Were you just passing by, or were you standing there? I
8 understood you as saying that you were passing by on your way to the
9 canteen from your room.
10 A. It is true that we were on our way, but we were standing in front
11 of the canteen for a while.
12 Q. Why were you standing there?
13 A. Because we would always form lines in front of the canteen, that
14 is one reason; and the other reason is that the guards ordered the
15 detainees to bow their heads and keep them down.
16 Q. And that is how you stood for ten minutes?
17 A. I must say it seemed like an eternity to me, but I don't believe
18 it was more than ten minutes - I'm repeating this again - because I
19 thought they would use their weapons and shoot.
20 Q. But you stood there for at least ten minutes; is that right?
21 A. I really didn't have a watch to time it, nor did I have anything
22 else, nor did I have a sense of time at all, but it certainly is about ten
24 Q. Thank you, sir. You spoke about Nedzad Delic, Hasan Dzano, and
25 Emir Mandzo. These three men, do they come from the same place?
1 A. No, not from the same place, but places in the same neighbourhood,
2 very close to one another.
3 Q. Did I understand you correctly as saying they were neighbours?
4 A. They are from different villages, but I repeat, those villages are
5 very close to one another.
6 Q. Were they arrested on the same day?
7 A. Nedzad Delic -- no, no, no, they were not arrested on the same
9 Q. Did they take part in the Territorial Defence, and did they
10 possess weapons?
11 A. I believe that Emir Mandzo was brought in from the hospital ward
12 where he worked; Hasan Dzano allegedly turned himself in; and Nedzad
13 Delic, my brother-in-law, was arrested on the same day that I was
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. I would appreciate the usher's help in
16 showing you the floor plan of the KP Dom, and I would like you to tell me
17 about the solitary cells in the administration building which you
18 mentioned. Can you please show us exactly where they were.
19 JUDGE HUNT: This is Exhibit 6/A, is it?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 6/A, yes, I'm sorry.
21 A. Those are Rooms 1 and 2.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For purposes of the transcript, the
23 witness is showing solitary cells as being located in the administrative
24 building, to the right from the entrance, in the building marked as
25 "administrative building," and those are the second and the third rooms
1 on the right-hand side marked 1 and 2.
2 Q. Mr. Berberkic, relative to the metal door through which you have
3 to go in order to enter the administrative building from the compound, can
4 you show me what you call the right-hand side of the building and what you
5 call the left-hand side?
6 A. You mean when entering from the compound, from inside?
7 Q. Yes. What do you understand to be the right-hand side and what is
8 the left-hand side?
9 A. The left-hand side is this office, Room 1 and Room 2. That is the
10 part of the building where the administration was, and to me, this is the
11 left-hand side. The right-hand side is opposite. This is the right-hand
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness is
15 indicating the left-hand side of the building as the part of the
16 administrative building where the words "administrative building" are
17 written, and containing rooms marked as "office," Room 1 and Room 2;
18 whereas he identifies the right-hand side of the building as the part
19 which is left from the main entrance to the KP Dom where the words "the
20 guards' building" are written, zgrada straze.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I have to say, Mr. Bakrac, that when I read that in
22 the transcript tomorrow I will be completely lost. I understood the
23 witness to be adhering to the attitude he expressed the other day that
24 he's looking at it from what he saw from inside the KP Dom itself, so that
25 what shows on the left-hand side of the plan was what he was describing as
1 the right side of the building, and what appears on the right side of the
2 plan he saw as being on the left-hand side because he was inside the KP
3 Dom. Now, I don't think he has said anything differently, has he?
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much for
5 this clarification. It is more helpful to the Chamber because you're
6 reading the transcript, but I will ask another question which is actually
7 the reason why I have asked this question.
8 Q. Mr. Berberkic, when you were talking about incidents, you said in
9 your statement on page 9, "At the time when these incidents took place,
10 the guards were not in their usual workplaces, on their usual posts.
11 That's why I believe all of them were involved. I am sure that all of
12 these incidents took place on the ground floor in the right wing of the
13 administrative building where the solitary cells are."
14 A. Which incidents do you mean?
15 Q. I mean the beatings of detainees which you mentioned in your
17 A. That could have been only in the left part of the building, not in
18 the right. They interrogated people in the left-hand side of the
20 Q. So what you stated to the Office of the Prosecutor in your
21 statement, which I have already mentioned, is not accurate.
22 A. There is one detail missing. From where are you looking? From
23 inside the prison or outside?
24 Q. Where did you observe these beatings from, from the inside?
25 A. From Room 16.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
1 Q. That means you were observing them from the inside, and you just
2 gave us your explanation as to what the right and the left sides are.
3 A. The left-hand side of the building, in my understanding, includes
4 Rooms 1 and 2.
5 Q. And you said in your statement that the beatings took place in the
6 right-hand side of the building. In your examination-in-chief, you said
7 they happened in the left-hand side of the building. I want to know which
8 one is true.
9 A. It depends on how you phrase the question relative to the entrance
10 to the KP Dom.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. Speaking about the beatings, you said
12 you saw people being taken out. Were they taken out in groups or
14 A. Can you please ask a direct question? You mean taken out from
15 their rooms or taken out from the KP Dom?
16 Q. From their rooms, into the administrative building.
17 A. You mean the June, July --
18 Q. June, July, the period you discussed.
19 A. They were taken out in groups of two to four men.
20 Q. These groups of two to four men, would they be taken through the
21 metal door together or some of them waited in front of the metal door?
22 Correction: Would they be taken through the door at once or would they
24 A. I think there were cases when the detainees waited in front of the
25 metal door for interrogation.
1 Q. Could you perhaps remember who waited outside the metal door?
2 A. I couldn't say by name, not with any certainty.
3 Q. At what time of day did these -- would people start being taken
5 A. As a rule, after lunch.
6 Q. What time would that be?
7 A. I believe it was after 3.00 p.m.
8 Q. You said that these beatings lasted until 10.00 or 11.00 p.m.
9 A. I think they did.
10 Q. So two to four people were beaten from 3.00 to 11.00 p.m., and
11 during all that time, you would hear cries for help and screams?
12 A. After 3.00, not only one but several groups would be taken out,
13 three to four groups, and that would amount to about 15 men.
14 Q. You said that on the 28th of June, in the evening, you heard
15 shots. Where did these shots come from? Where did they seem to be coming
17 A. I believe they came from the rooms which I identified as Rooms 1
18 and 2 and from outside the KP Dom.
19 Q. You said you heard not less than five shots. How many of them
20 came from inside those rooms and how many came from outside the KP Dom?
21 A. I could not clearly define or distinguish how many came from
22 outside and how many from inside the rooms.
23 Q. You said during your examination-in-chief that the next day you
24 also heard shots but those were individual shots, single shots. What did
25 you mean by that? Does it mean that those five shots you heard on the
1 28th were a burst of gunfire?
2 A. All the shots were single shots. It was not automatic fire.
3 Q. What did you mean then by saying that on the next day you also
4 heard shots but those were single shots?
5 A. I believe I answered that question.
6 Q. How many shots did you hear the next day and where did you hear
7 them from?
8 A. Which day do you mean?
9 Q. I mean the day after the 28th of June, 1992.
10 A. I don't think I stated that I heard shots the next day. I don't
11 know where I could have stated that.
12 Q. You said that during your examination-in-chief when my learned
13 friend asked you about these incidents. Did you hear shots on the next
14 day or didn't you? Try to remember now, please.
15 A. I can't. I can't confirm this statement with certainty.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. Tell me, please, on the 28th of June
17 when you heard those shots, which detainees had been taken through the
18 metal door?
19 A. I don't know the names of the detainees. I cannot remember, but I
20 know that they belong in a group of 30 men who were taken out. The names
21 of the people who were taken out on the 28th of June is something that I
22 cannot remember.
23 Q. You remember it was the 28th of June, you remember that you heard
24 not less than five shots, you remember that some of them were inside, some
25 of them in front of the building, you remember that 30 or so men were
1 taken out, but you cannot remember any one of them?
2 A. I said I cannot claim with any certainty. I can give you the
3 names, some names if you want me to, but I don't want to say things of
4 which I'm not absolutely certain.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. Could you tell us if you ever mentioned
6 to the Office of the Prosecutor or the security services centre in
7 Sarajevo the coat of Mr. Uzunovic and that you received it through some
8 channels later on?
9 A. I think I did, but even if I didn't, my statement about that coat
10 is absolutely correct, and I stand by it.
11 Q. But you never mentioned it before, at least, not in those
12 statements that are available to the Defence.
13 A. I believe there are a lot of things which I never said and which I
14 will never say, so I see nothing odd in some things coming up just like
15 that because one question evokes new memories, and I see nothing strange
16 about that.
17 Q. Mr. Berberkic, what did you do with that coat when you received it
19 A. I wore it for a long time.
20 Q. Was it covered with blood?
21 A. Yes. He was completely bloody with bloodstains in the upper part
22 on both the right and the left side.
23 Q. Was it a doctor's coat or a raincoat?
24 A. It was the raincoat which he wore to work.
25 Q. How were you able to tell that it was his coat?
1 A. I worked in the same ward and I saw him in that same raincoat in
2 the prison as well while he was in building number 1 and when he was being
3 taken out. There is absolutely no doubt, no chance that it could be
4 another man's coat.
5 Q. Who gave it to you?
6 A. I think it was [redacted], Witness FWS-76, but I'm not sure.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's 4.00.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour. Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have a request to make --
12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- on behalf of this witness. We just
14 received messages from, from our other staff, and they are in contact with
15 the Witness/Victim Unit, and they informed us that this witness has to
16 return to his home tomorrow. He has to fly out. He came already twice
17 now, and he already spent an entire week here, and according to the
18 information, he's used his entire leave that he got from his employer, and
19 now he is in big trouble if we do not finish. So I wonder if we could
20 proceed for a little while further on today, or maybe tomorrow.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I wish you'd raised this a bit earlier. We've got no
22 opportunity to consult with those who matter in these matters, and those
23 are the people who have very strict time limits on the periods during
24 which they can work.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I'd actually not expected this
1 to happen because we had consulted with Defence counsels and we expected
2 this to end, actually, within 45 minutes, and I -- actually, till now I
3 was always wondering when does it stop.
4 JUDGE HUNT: How long do you think you will be, Mr. Bakrac?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise to my
6 learned friend. I said that we don't have any time evaluations in our
7 system, and the answers came more slowly than I expected them to. I'll
8 try to abbreviate the rest of my questions, and I believe we can finish
9 within five or ten minutes, if that is acceptable to you.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's see how we go with the interpreters and
11 the typists. Ten minutes? I wish we had had less of the irrelevant
12 cross-examination and we would have got through in time.
13 Is there any problem with the interpreters?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Ten minutes would be all right, say the
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Or the typists?
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour. Your Honour, but the
18 Prosecution would have, let's say, five minutes for re-examination.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I think if they're not worried about 10 minutes, they
20 won't be worried about 15 minutes, but let's just see how we go. That
21 doesn't mean to speed up any questions, that will cause their own
22 problems, but let's try to shorten the questions themselves.
23 You proceed, Mr. Bakrac.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may suggest, I'll
25 make my questions shorter, and I'll suggest that his statement be admitted
1 into evidence.
2 Q. Mr. Berberkic, you mentioned persons who were concealed from the
3 International Red Cross, Husein Lojo, Safet Avdic, Dr. Torlak, and three
4 persons with pseudonyms FWS-111, 146, and 76. Can you remember who else
5 was hidden? You said there were 12 of them.
6 A. I believe there was Witness FWS-162. I don't know whether I had
7 mentioned him.
8 Q. Can you remember anybody else?
9 A. Detainee Karovic, but not Ibrahim. There was another Karovic.
10 Q. Tell me, what about Witness 139? Was he hidden together with
12 A. I think he was.
13 Q. Mr. Berberkic, I shall finish with all these questions. Just tell
14 me, you wore that coat when an Enes Uzunovic went missing. That's what
15 you told us. When did he go missing?
16 A. He was in this group of men who disappeared from mid-June until
17 the end of June 1992. However, as for the exact date, I cannot remember
19 Q. When did you get the coat?
20 A. The coat? It might have been two months after that.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did Dr. Torlak remain in the KP Dom after the
22 12th of August, 1993, when you left?
23 A. No, he did not stay. He was taken out earlier. I think it was
24 the same day, perhaps even in the morning, when Zekovic escaped. It could
25 have been July the 4th or the 7th of July, 1993.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Berberkic. Tell me, after you got out or now, have
2 you been receiving treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder?
3 A. In the country where I live now, at first I took appropriate
4 medication, but right now I'm not taking any.
5 Q. Which medication did you take? Did you take it of your own free
6 will because you're a doctor, or were you treated by an appropriate
8 A. I received treatment from a psychologist -- I beg your pardon, a
9 psychiatrist, and I took Prozac.
10 Q. Do you have a file at that doctor's?
11 A. I did, but I haven't got one right now.
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In order to
13 shorten our time, I suggest that the statement given by the witness to the
14 security services in Sarajevo be given -- be admitted into evidence, that
15 is ID 326 and ID 326A and ID 327 and 327A, and then I have no further
16 questions of this witness.
17 JUDGE HUNT: What do you say to the admission of those documents,
18 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have no objections, Your Honour. I only
20 wonder if the Defence counsel may have forgotten the statements to the --
21 the statement to the OTP, if he wants to enter this into evidence as
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there were two that he mentioned, 326 and 327.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes. Thank you.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Those documents will be admitted --
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objections.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Those will be admitted into evidence as
3 Exhibits P326, P326A, P327, and P327A. Now, is there any need for them to
4 be under seal? They've got names in them that -- it might be preferable,
5 would it not? Yes, they will be under seal, all four of them.
6 Yes. Any re-examination?
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I think I can also shorten the
9 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
10 Q. During the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's office, was
11 a sketch used, a sketch of the KP Dom? Do you recall?
12 A. I think so, yes. Yes.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution would also like to enter this
14 sketch, which is also attached to the statements, into evidence, and it's
15 ID 329.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Mr. Bakrac?
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: That will be Exhibit P329.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That allows me to let out some questions. I
20 just want to -- no. I even don't have to read back other parts now of the
21 statements as they are now into evidence, and -- I have to do it.
22 Q. Let me read something that Mr. Bakrac actually read to you but he
23 read only part of it.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is on page 6, for the interpreters, and
25 it's the fourth paragraph in the English version of it.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Which one?
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 6 of the OTP -- of P326.
3 Q. It says here: "That we got inadequate food had nothing to do with
4 a general lack of food. The Serb prisoners had enough food."
5 Did you say that and do you recall that it was like this?
6 A. I think that this is correct, that that is the way I had said it.
7 Q. And on paragraph five in that same statement, in the English
8 version it's the fifth paragraph, where you refer to the Lojos and what
9 they told you, and Mr. Bakrac has already read to you:
10 "The Lojos told us later that Krnojelac said that he was not in
11 control of the situation and that the military command would have to
12 decide. He said that the prison staff was only a service for the military
13 command. He would not be able to help but promised to improve the living
14 conditions in the camp. He did not keep his promise."
15 Did you say that?
16 A. I said something like that, but ...
17 Q. Yes. And do you recall that after the two Lojos spoke with
18 Mr. Krnojelac, did the food get any better? Did these conversations, did
19 they have an effect on the quality of the food?
20 A. No, no. The food did not get better.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
23 Well, Doctor, thank you very much for giving evidence. You're now
24 free to leave, and we hope that you get some leave sometime, but thank you
25 very much for being here.
1 We're grateful also to the interpreters and to the court reporting
2 staff for having sat on to finish his evidence.
3 We're adjourned now until 9.30 on Monday and unless we are
4 gazumped by somebody else in relation to courtroom number one, we will be
5 sitting there.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.15 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 19th day of
8 March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts.