Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4139

1 Tuesday, 20 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Case number IT-97-25-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: FWS-69 [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff [Continued]:

14 Q. Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me? Can you hear me now?

15 A. Yes, I can. Thank you.

16 Q. Good morning, Witness.

17 A. Good morning to you too.

18 Q. Yesterday you told us how you saw Mr. Krnojelac when 75 detainees

19 were taken away. Did you also see soldiers in the compound when this

20 happened?

21 A. No, I didn't.

22 Q. Do you know what became of these 75 detainees?

23 A. I don't know what became of them. Out of those detainees, I don't

24 know that anyone has been heard of since they were taken to the gate, and

25 I don't know what happened to them.

Page 4140

1 Q. You told us yesterday, as well, that you saw Mr. Krnojelac during

2 a kind of alarm situation, alert situation. Do you recall when that was,

3 when this happened?

4 A. I don't know exactly when that happened. There was an alert, but

5 I don't remember the date.

6 Q. Can you tell us what time of the year it was? Was it more to the

7 end of your confinement or in the beginning?

8 A. That was sometime in July or August, maybe even September. It was

9 most probably in September, October. I don't know, but it wasn't in the

10 beginning.

11 Q. Was it during daytime or more to the evening when that happened?

12 A. In the afternoon. It was not evening yet. It was afternoon.

13 Q. Yesterday you also told us how you were interrogated and how

14 Paprica told you that there was a Crisis Staff and they would decide, and

15 the warden was in this Crisis Staff as well. When did Mr. Paprica tell

16 you that?

17 A. He told me that at my interrogation, when I was at his office.

18 Q. Were the other persons, that is Starovic and Gagovic that you

19 mentioned, were they also present when he told you that?

20 A. There was Starovic, Paprica, Gagovic, and from time to time, Mitar

21 Rasevic would come in. He was coming and going. I don't know whether

22 Rasevic was there at the moment when he said it, but Starovic was.

23 Q. Did the other -- that's Starovic and Gagovic, did they add to what

24 Paprica told you or were they quiet?

25 A. I don't remember them saying anything. I don't remember that.

Page 4141

1 Q. Yesterday you also told us when the journalists came to visit and

2 filmed in the KP Dom, and you told us that the warden was present. Was he

3 accompanying these journalists or what was he doing?

4 A. He was present outside the gate within the compound. He was

5 watching, but he was in the compound.

6 Q. Did he come together with the journalists; do you recall?

7 A. In the beginning, right when the journalists came, the warden

8 passed through the gate with them, and first they went together to the

9 carpentry shop. When they came back from there, he was probably showing

10 them around the premises and the compound, the yard of the KP Dom.

11 Q. You said that he was probably showing them around. Did you see

12 him going around?

13 A. He was in their company. I don't know what he was showing them.

14 I don't know what he was doing, but he was in their company. He was

15 together with them.

16 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the compound or in the building with

17 military personnel?

18 A. In the building where the prisoners were, I never saw him there.

19 In the yard I would see him with military men.

20 Q. Do you know who that was, these military men?

21 A. I saw him several times. Once I saw him passing through the

22 courtyard together with Boro Ivanovic. On another occasion I saw him

23 walking in the company of a military man. I don't know his rank, but

24 before the war he was an economist. His name is Milos Dragicevic. And

25 another man who wore a military uniform, wearing a yellow bag across the

Page 4142

1 shoulder like officers, he used to be a male nurse at Maglic. He was

2 Sipcic. I don't know his first name.

3 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac with these military people, what

4 were they doing? Were they just walking past the prisoners building?

5 A. From the gate, they passed by building 1 and building 2. Then

6 they passed by the kitchen. They stood for a while outside the kitchen,

7 talking. They walked about the courtyard. I don't know what they were

8 discussing or what their purpose was.

9 Q. Boro Ivanovic. Did you see him in the prison on several

10 occasions?

11 A. I saw him often. He would be alone in the courtyard for the most

12 part, and he talked to captive Serbian soldiers in the courtyard. Some of

13 them were in uniform, some of them were in camouflage uniforms. He had

14 arguments with them, loud arguments. We could hear that, but we couldn't

15 hear what exactly they were talking about.

16 Q. Did Mr. Ivanovic ever speak with the Muslim detainees?

17 A. He couldn't have because all of them were in their rooms except

18 for those who were cleaning the courtyard, and I never saw him talking to

19 anyone of them.

20 Q. Did you see Mr. Ivanovic ever enter the building where the Serb

21 prisoners were kept?

22 A. I didn't see that. At least I don't remember.

23 Q. You mentioned that you also saw Mr. Krnojelac in the company of a

24 military person, Dragicevic. Do you know what position he had, Milos

25 Dragicevic?

Page 4143

1 A. I don't know what his position was. He wore a military uniform,

2 but what his task was and what his position was, that I don't know.

3 Q. This other person, Sipcic, do you know what his position was?

4 In the military, I mean.

5 A. I don't know that either.

6 Q. You have mentioned that Mr. Gagovic was the deputy warden, and you

7 said that he introduced himself as such. When you saw him, what did he

8 wear?

9 A. He was wearing trousers. I couldn't say what kind. He also had a

10 short leather, yellow jacket.

11 Q. Savo Todovic. What was his exact function in the KP Dom?

12 A. Savo Todovic. I don't remember that man. They told me that there

13 was a Savo Todovic and in all probability - I couldn't say for sure - he

14 worked in the carpentry shop.

15 Q. Mr. Rasevic, what was his position?

16 A. I don't know exactly, but we, the inmates, knew that he was the

17 commander of the police, that is, the guards, commander of the guard, the

18 entire guard.

19 Q. Did you see him on a daily basis in the KP Dom?

20 A. Rasevic, you mean?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Often. I don't know whether it was on a daily basis, but we saw

23 him rather often.

24 Q. What did he wear, what kind of clothing?

25 A. He wore a police uniform of the kind previously worn by policemen

Page 4144

1 in the KP Dom. It was not a military uniform, it was a police one.

2 Q. Mr. Rasevic and the guards, did they attend to all detainees, that

3 is, the Muslims and the Serbs?

4 A. I don't know exactly what they attended to, but the guards were

5 also in charge of Serbian soldiers. They would let them out for lunch and

6 take them back to their rooms, and during the day, these soldiers would

7 walk around the courtyard. They would play football, et cetera.

8 Q. You said that you were detained in the KP Dom until 8 December

9 1992. How did you leave the KP Dom?

10 A. I left the KP Dom on the 8th of December. That morning, we went

11 out to have breakfast. We lined up before entering the kitchen. It was a

12 cold day. There were puddles from the rain the previous day and they were

13 frozen. At that moment, a guard came with a list. He called out myself

14 and some people who were also in my room. He told us to come out of the

15 line, go back to our rooms and prepare for an exchange.

16 I, together with two or three other men, went back to our rooms,

17 whereas the others left for breakfast. We were told that we would have

18 breakfast later, once we were prepared for the exchange. Later, when the

19 other inmates came back to our room, we said our goodbyes, and we went

20 down to the compound. We assembled in the canteen. We were given

21 breakfast and after breakfast we lined up in front of the gate. We waited

22 there, lined up, for about 10 or 15 minutes, and then we were taken out

23 outside the gate; there we were inspected. The guards inspected what we

24 had on us. They were looking for pieces of paper, notes. They took away

25 these things and threw them away. I had some recipes for growing tomatoes

Page 4145

1 or flowers. Those were some things I just did to spend time. And we had

2 some pieces of bread that were given to us by the cooks before we left.

3 Q. Witness, we would not need all the details. We have already

4 noticed that you have a memory for -- you have a very detailed memory, but

5 we would not need all these details.

6 Who took you over when you went through the KP Dom, when you went

7 outside?

8 A. A van pulled up backwards, a Deutz, that was the type of vehicle,

9 some sort of pick-up, with the roof opened, with chairs on the both sides

10 of it, and some soldiers who wore olive-green/grey uniforms and camouflage

11 uniforms listed us first. Then they searched us again. The bread that I

12 had was taken away by them and thrown away, and then they put us on the

13 van. They seated us six on each side, and we sat there inside the vehicle

14 while they were handling some papers, some paperwork.

15 Q. You said that they listed you first. Does that mean that they put

16 your names down on a list or what? What do you mean?

17 A. Yes, that's what they did. They made a list of us.

18 Q. You said they were handling some paperwork. What kind of

19 paperwork was it? Could you see?

20 A. I don't know what it was. They had some papers in their hands.

21 They listed us one by one and we got on board the vehicle. I don't know

22 what kind of papers those were.

23 Q. Did they hand over some papers to the KP Dom staff or did they get

24 papers from them?

25 A. I don't remember that. I cannot say one way or another.

Page 4146

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Page 4147

1 Q. Where were you taken?

2 A. When we had boarded the vehicle, a soldier got on in the back and

3 another got on in front. We were 12 of us and two of them, totalling 14.

4 They pulled down this roof, and we set off. We didn't know where we were

5 going. They would stop occasionally. We didn't know where we were. So

6 it continued until a place where we stopped. They took off -- they took

7 down the roof and we looked around. I assumed that we were in the village

8 of Mrezica, also known as Ovsiji. I should also like to mention that

9 from the moment we left the KP Dom, we were continuously beaten. One of

10 the soldiers beat us all the time and, from time to time, the other one

11 who had a hat on his head and was nicknamed Vojvoda, would beat us too.

12 Then When we stopped at that place and when they took down the roof, I saw

13 them talking beside the car. I saw torched houses around. Then they

14 threw in a leg of a calf which was not properly skinned and they made us

15 eat it. They forbade us to eat the dirty piece of hoof on that leg.

16 I was blood-soaked. My nose was broken, and we were all beaten on

17 our backs.

18 At that moment, the man who drove the van came in to see what's

19 going on. He had a long beard, and he ordered the soldiers to throw the

20 leg out. He told them to leave us alone, and then we continued.

21 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you. I just want to check something

22 with you because in the transcript, it says they forbade us to eat the

23 dirty piece of hoof.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Where were you taken? Where did this drive end?

Page 4148

1 A. You mean where they took us after that?

2 Q. Yes, where you were taken.

3 A. They took us to Kalinovik. That's where they took us from there.

4 In Kalinovik, we stopped outside a building of some kind. They took the

5 roof down, and the bearded man carrying the machine-gun brought us some

6 bread. We were still hungry, so he brought more bread. Some soldiers and

7 some women came and looked at us. The women told the soldiers not to beat

8 us. We looked very miserable. And we continued on our way.

9 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you. We do not need all these details.

10 Where were you kept in Kalinovik, in which building?

11 A. In Kalinovik, I don't know exactly the name of that place, but it

12 was a powder factory. There was a ramp there which they opened. They let

13 us enter the building. They told us we would be accommodated there.

14 It was a huge place, this powder factory, and there were wooden

15 pallets there in one corner. We got about a dozen of dirty blankets, some

16 mattresses which were also dirty, and they told us we would sleep there.

17 They told us also that we would get dinner and that's where we would

18 stay.

19 When we tried to make some beds for the 12 of us, we discovered

20 the place was mice infested and the mice were running around everywhere.

21 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you again. We would not need these

22 details. How long did you stay in Kalinovik?

23 A. I arrived in Kalinovik on the 12th of December, and I -- I'm

24 sorry. I arrived on the 8th of December and was exchanged on the 12th,

25 which means within three days.

Page 4149

1 Q. Do you know for whom you were exchanged?

2 A. I don't know. We were exchanged one by one. The first man was

3 exchanged on the 10th, the second one on the 11th, and I was exchanged on

4 the 12th. I don't know for whom I was exchanged. I have no idea.

5 Q. Yes. We have already talked about your physical suffering during

6 your detention. Did you suffer psychological consequences due to the

7 living conditions and what you have survived in the KP Dom?

8 A. I still suffer those consequences. After my release from the

9 KP Dom, I underwent thorough medical examinations in Split. When I

10 arrived in Split, I weighed 54 kilos.

11 The time when we left Kalinovik was the hardest time of all in my

12 life. I was running a high fever. I had diarrhea, vomiting. When I

13 arrived at the hospital, they told me I would probably die. They couldn't

14 give me a drip. They gave me some medication and tried to transfer me to

15 Split in a hurry, but I arrived in Split only on the 12th of December,

16 where I was hospitalised. I got treatment there and underwent

17 examinations which revealed a vitaminosis. My entire body was black and

18 blue. I had discoloration on my entire body. My hands and feet were

19 swollen. They told me I had a dislodged kidney and some cysts. They made

20 scans of my brain, and they said that with good exercise and good

21 treatment, I could get better. I had to climb the mount Marijan almost

22 every day and to eat as much fruit as I can.

23 Q. Let me stop you. How long were you hospitalised?

24 A. I don't know exactly. For about ten days. As long as the

25 examinations took. And among the consequences I still suffer from the

Page 4150

1 camp are nightmares. Whenever I sleep, I dream about the traumas I have

2 experienced. I cry out, yell, holler during the night and it's very

3 embarrassing. When I move about in the street, if I'm walking alone

4 and somebody is walking behind me, I have a feeling that that person

5 behind me would attack me, would drive a knife in my back, and I always

6 step aside and let that person pass me by to avoid having to go through

7 this.

8 Q. Yes. Thank you, sir.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are the questions that the Prosecution

10 has.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:

14 Q. Good morning, sir. My name is Mihajlo Bakrac. I'm one of the

15 Defence counsel for the accused, Mr. Krnojelac.

16 First of all, I would like to ask you to make a pause after each

17 question I ask so that the interpreters can interpret the question. Until

18 now, the questions were asked in English and you received the

19 interpretation immediately and you could answer immediately, but now I

20 would like you to make a pause after my question and answer only after a

21 pause.

22 Sir, did you give a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor on

23 the 21st and 22nd October, 1995, on the subjects you have testified about

24 today?

25 A. I gave this statement in 1990 -- I don't remember the year, but I

Page 4151

1 gave a statement.

2 Q. Is it also true that on the 12th of December, 1992, you gave a

3 statement to the public security station in Trnovo?

4 A. Yes. It wasn't on the 12th. It was on the 13th of December.

5 Q. Were these statements read to you and did you sign them?

6 A. Yes, they were read to me and I signed them. Actually, I don't

7 know whether I signed them or not, but they were read to me.

8 Q. So those are statements that you made voluntarily?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. As your own statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Yesterday, sir, during the examination-in-chief, you talked about

13 the very beginning of the conflict in Foca. I'm going to ask you

14 something that you already spoke about in your statements. I'll ask you

15 whether this is correct and whether you still maintain that.

16 You said that in Foca, the first political meeting was a rally of

17 the Party of Democratic Action on the banks of the Drina River and that

18 100.000 people assembled on that occasion. Is that correct?

19 A. I don't know whether that was the first meeting on the banks of

20 the Drina River, and I don't know exactly whether there were 100 [sic]

21 people. Rumour had it that there were 100 [sic] people. I don't know.

22 Q. You said exactly that this was a very big rally and that it was

23 attended by 100.000 people.

24 A. Most probably so. I didn't do any counting, but rumour had it

25 that there were 100 [sic] people, that's it.

Page 4152

1 JUDGE HUNT: You'll have to pause just a little bit longer than

2 you're pausing, sir. The interpreters work about half a sentence behind

3 you. So just wait a little bit longer before you start your answer to the

4 questions.

5 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

6 A. All right. Thank you.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. I just want to ask you something about the transcript. I put my

9 question asking 100.000 people, but the transcript says 100.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that the witness said

11 invariably "100" only.

12 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreters just said that's precisely what

13 he said.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Both times.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Both times say the interpreters.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Then my question is are we talking about 100.000 people or are we

18 talking about 100 people?

19 A. One hundred thousand people.

20 Q. Is it also correct that you stated that this rally was attended by

21 Muslims from all over Bosnia, Sandzak, that Croats came from Zagreb and

22 Bosnia, and Muslims from Croatia and that they attended that meeting?

23 A. I don't know where they came from. Muslims came most probably

24 from all over Bosnia. I don't know about that. I cannot say where they

25 came from because I was not on any committee or something. I did not read

Page 4153

1 anything. I don't know it all, where they came from and who was there.

2 Q. I am reading to you what you wrote in your statement.

3 A. If I said that they came from Croatia, from all over Bosnia, there

4 were stories to that effect. Most probably they did, but I don't know

5 exactly. It's not really that important, is it?

6 Q. Is it also correct that you stated that at that meeting that

7 Bosnian and Croat flags were tied together?

8 A. I don't know whether I stated that. I don't remember that, but

9 there were some that were tied together.

10 Q. Why was the Serb flag not tied together with these two?

11 A. I don't know that.

12 Q. Now I'm going to read to you exactly what you said in your

13 statement and then you're going to tell me whether that is correct or not

14 by way of commenting on what we have just been saying. "The Serbs were

15 very irritated and dissatisfied with this rally. The relations between

16 the Serbs and the Muslims worsened."

17 A. Can I answer now? That is correct. I had socialised with the

18 Serbs, my colleagues. They told me that they were really irritated by

19 this and they were unhappy about it.

20 Q. After that, did a Serb rally follow at the football stadium that

21 was much smaller than this one?

22 A. Can I answer now? Yes, yes.

23 Q. Sir, since you are asking me all the time whether you can answer

24 now, if you want to, you can look at me and I'll give you a sign with my

25 hand and then you can answer. Perhaps that's going to be easier and

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Page 4155

1 faster. Thank you.

2 Before the war conflict broke out was there dissatisfaction among

3 Serbs in town because the Muslims starting withdrawing their children from

4 the Yugoslav People's Army? Did you talk about that in your statement?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. The Serbs organised a public rally on the main square in the

7 centre of Foca. The main topic at the rally was why were the Muslims not

8 joining the army. Before that you said that Muslim mothers and parents

9 took their children out of the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 A. That's the way it was, but I did not attend the rally. That's

11 what people talked about, but I was not at the rally.

12 Q. However, what you said is true, isn't it?

13 A. [No audible response]

14 Q. Before the war conflict broke out, do you know that the Muslim

15 side had a Crisis Staff?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. On page 5 of your statement you said, "Radio Sarajevo reported

18 that the Muslim Crisis Staff and the Muslim defenders had fled to

19 Ustikolina." Is that correct or not?

20 A. That is correct. The radio said that they had withdrawn to

21 Ustikolina.

22 Q. In your statement during the examination-in-chief, sir, you said

23 that on Tuesday, the 7th of April, you went from Jelec to Foca, to work.

24 A. Set out to Foca to work? Yes, that's correct. I don't know

25 whether it was the 6th or the 7th too or whatever, but that's true.

Page 4156

1 Q. Then you returned to Jelec so that you would not remain in

2 Foca if there were to be roadblocks that would prevent you from getting

3 out; is that correct?

4 A. What is correct is that I went to Foca on the Tuesday. That was

5 the 7th most probably. After that, when there was nothing to do at my

6 working place, I returned home around 11.00 or 12.00. My wife --

7 Q. Sir. Sir, we heard about that. I'm just asking you whether it is

8 correct that on the same day you left Foca and went back to Jelec once

9 again so that road blocks would not keep you in Foca. Is that correct?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Did your children remain in Jelec or did they go out to Foca with

12 you?

13 A. They stayed in Jelec. They were not with me.

14 Q. Didn't you go to school? Didn't your children go to school?

15 A. The children did not go to school on that day.

16 Q. Why did you go to school to teach and you did not let your own

17 children go to school?

18 A. I did not take them for safety reasons. They stayed back. They

19 did not come with me; that is correct.

20 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that you were told in Jelec that you

21 would get a rifle. Did you get a rifle in Jelec?

22 A. I did not get a rifle. Nobody told me that they'd give me a

23 rifle, and I didn't get one anyway.

24 Q. You said that the locals in Jelec agreed on a hand-over of weapons

25 and that everything could be dealt with peaceably. Is it correct that

Page 4157

1 Besevic convinced the people of Jelec not to hand over weapons but to join

2 in the arms struggle?

3 A. I did not attend this meeting. As far as I heard, when Besevic

4 came, he said that whoever wants to can join him and who doesn't want to

5 doesn't have to. It was up to everyone individually. He did not come to

6 defend Jelec. He came to defend Bosnia-Herzegovina. And that day, when

7 weapons had to be handed over by 12.00, Besevic arrived in the morning and

8 that is how this plan concerning the hand-over of weapons went down the

9 drain.

10 Q. How many soldiers did Besevic have with him?

11 A. He had a camouflage uniform and four or five soldiers. With him

12 were five or six or ten - I don't know exactly - people in civilian

13 uniforms, and they also carried hunting weapons.

14 Q. Sir, yesterday you said you had a pistol.

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Were you arrested with that pistol on you?

17 A. I was arrested with that pistol on me, and I can also tell you all

18 about how I was arrested. May I?

19 Q. Please, just tell me whether you had a pistol on you when you were

20 arrested or not.

21 A. When I was arrested, I did not have a pistol on me.

22 Q. Are you sure about that?

23 A. I'm sure.

24 Q. Sir, I'm going to read to you now the statement you gave to the

25 public security station in Trnovo or, actually, just part of that

Page 4158

1 statement.

2 "Jasmin Beckovic frisked me, and he found my own pistol on me.

3 It was a CZ pistol, 62 millimetre. He took it away from me and he put it

4 on his own belt, and he also took a knife away from me."

5 A. May I proceed?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. When Jasmin frisked me, he only found a knife on me. There was no

8 pistol. When they were pushing me ahead of themselves as a human shield

9 in front of their lines, I came to a place where we had lain as we were

10 hiding from grenades and weapons. They were digging up the place where we

11 were and they were torching it. Then there was the blouse of a man who

12 was lying there with us and in his pocket he found a pistol magazine, and

13 Jasko said, "You have a pistol. You have to give me a pistol or I'll kill

14 you straight away." I said to him that when I was running with my

15 children, 100 metres above that I took my pistol off and put it under a

16 rock. That's where the pistol remained. And I said that it was there.

17 Why did I leave it? My daughter was not there. I didn't want to

18 carry a pistol with me. I went back to look for my daughter, so I went

19 without a pistol, without any weapons, and he arrested me without a

20 pistol, without any weapons, and from there he took me to that place where

21 the rock was and then we took the pistol from underneath the rock and I

22 handed it over to him.

23 Q. Sir, are you a huntsman?

24 A. I am fond of fishing. I have been a sports fisherman since

25 1964.

Page 4159

1 Q. Yesterday you said, during the examination-in-chief, that you had

2 binoculars. How come you had binoculars?

3 A. I had binoculars that my daughter got as a present from a relative

4 of ours from Germany. It was a small pair of binoculars for soccer games.

5 This was a little present that she had got. She is the one who carried it

6 around. She had it.

7 Q. You did not have it on you?

8 A. No, she had it. When they captured her, they found that pair of

9 binoculars and they took it away.

10 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that you used

11 binoculars to watch.

12 A. You mean when shells were falling on Jelec. We were getting out

13 of this thicket, because we were there on the 1st and 2nd and 3rd of May.

14 We went out to a meadow. Both the children and I used the very same

15 binoculars to watch shells falling on Jelec.

16 Q. If you did not have binoculars on you, why did this person who

17 arrested you say, "Here comes the scout?" Do you have any idea?

18 A. He had probably assumed that there were some military men up there

19 and that's why they said that I was a scout.

20 Q. Sir, tell me, why did you say to the public security station that

21 you had the pistol on you, that it was found on you?

22 A. Of course it was on me. I carried it with me, but under these

23 circumstances, it was not directly on me, as I have already told you.

24 Q. The person you mentioned as Jasmin Beckovic, what's he from an

25 ethnic point of view?

Page 4160

1 A. An ethnic Muslim.

2 Q. Did he take you prisoner?

3 A. When these men appeared, this firing squad, they called it the

4 comb. There were 20 to 30 soldiers uphill and downhill. They put all

5 their rifles up on the ready, and the one who was holding me at gunpoint

6 ordered Jasmin Beckovic to frisk me. He walked up to me, frisked me. He

7 took off my trousers, my boots. He only found my knife, took away my

8 knife, and then --

9 Q. We heard about that. I just wanted to know what Jasmin Beckovic

10 was by ethnicity, and he was among the persons who arrested you.

11 A. I did not recognise him at that moment, and when the other man

12 grabbed me by the neck and tried to kill me, and then he said, "Do you

13 know me?" and I said that I did know him. He introduced himself, saying

14 that his name was Jasmin Beckovic.

15 Q. And he's an ethnic Muslim?

16 A. A Muslim.

17 Q. Thank you. You said yesterday, sir, that together with you were

18 women, children, and elderly men, that they were with you and that they

19 were arrested with you. Where were the younger men from Jelec?

20 A. As people were fleeing the village, I don't know where they

21 scattered about in these forests. Husad Cesalj, Siljevac there were

22 mountains and forests all around. I don't know where they were.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are starting your answers to the questions

24 too early. Just wait that little bit longer. Mr. Bakrac has offered to

25 give you a hand signal, which seems like a good idea, because he knows

Page 4161

1 when the translation is finished because he is listening to it.

2 A. Very well. Thank you.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. What about these young men from Jelec? Did they go -- did they

5 follow Besevic?

6 A. When we were in town, Besevic went uphill from Jelec. He said

7 that whoever wanted to join him could. Whoever wanted to join him could

8 and who didn't want to didn't have to.

9 I saw two or three young men who did come with me. That's what I

10 did see.

11 Q. That's what you saw, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Yesterday, sir, you mentioned Cosovic. What was he, a civilian or

14 which rank did he hold if he was a military person?

15 A. This was at Brod. When we were brought there -- I mean I had

16 known Cosovic from before. He had a camouflage uniform. I don't know his

17 first name. He had a military camouflage uniform on.

18 Q. Was this a uniform belonging to the ordinary army or the military

19 police or what?

20 A. I don't know whether it was the ordinary army or whatever. I

21 don't know. I have no idea.

22 Q. In your statement, you said that you recognised Cosovic. He was

23 commander of the military police and he was a former pupil of mine from

24 school. What is correct?

25 A. What is correct is that Cosovic was a former pupil of mine. He

Page 4162

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Page 4163

1 went to school to become a waiter and that's what he did. When I was

2 detained, when I came to the camp, we heard this in the camp, that Cosa

3 was commander of the military police.

4 Q. You mentioned Zelja Jankovic and a third person who were present

5 there. What were they?

6 A. Vukovic -- may I proceed?

7 Q. You said that you recognised Zelja Jankovic and that you knew the

8 third person by sight. What were the three of them?

9 A. They all had camouflage uniforms. I don't know what they were,

10 but they all had camouflage uniforms on.

11 Q. In the statement that you gave in 1995, you said, "The three of

12 them were members of the military police."

13 A. Most probably they were members. Since Cosa was, they were too, I

14 guess.

15 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, what was the maximum of persons detained

16 in your room?

17 A. May I speak now? In my room, Room 18, in the month of June or it

18 was the end of June, the largest number of persons detained there was 70

19 to 80.

20 Q. To the best of your knowledge, what was the biggest number of

21 persons who were ethnic Muslims who were at the KP Dom?

22 A. We actually did the counting. In my room, we tried to keep

23 abreast of this. We think that the peak was reached when the number was

24 780. However, our figures did not match. It wasn't one person who was

25 doing the counting, it was groups of people, two by two by four. So our

Page 4164

1 figures did not match. There was a margin of 20. So it was between 780

2 and 800.

3 Q. In your statement, you said, "In my room, the largest number of

4 detainees ever was up to 80 and the largest number of prisoners in the

5 prison was, to the best of my knowledge, 600 at the end of June."

6 A. Is this my statement?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Perhaps the statement's wrong. I remember well that two men were

9 doing the counting, that they counted the people who were going out of

10 building 1 when they were going in groups to have lunch. Then we

11 added up all the members of these groups. Then other people were counting

12 men as they were getting out of our building, going out for breakfast and

13 lunch. So we counted all the people in these groups and we added all of

14 this up, and the grand total was about 750, 780. So our figures did not

15 correspond. Invariably there was a margin of 20 or 30. So then we also

16 came to the figure concerning the number of persons who were in solitary

17 confinement and then --

18 Q. Thank you, sir. You don't have to explain all of this to me.

19 Please just be so kind as to tell me the following: What you said in 1995

20 and what you are saying now, in 2001, which one is correct? Is it 600 or

21 is it 780? And did you come to this figure because you subsequently

22 talked to some persons about the KP Dom?

23 A. I did not have any subsequent conversations. That's not how I got

24 this number. I'm saying that I should have said in my first statement

25 that it was 780. How come they got this figure 600, I don't know. Maybe

Page 4165

1 they made a mistake as they were writing this down. That might be an

2 error as well.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. Yesterday during your examination-in-chief, and

4 you repeated the same thing again today, you said that you saw Warden

5 Krnojelac with journalists within the compound and that he was wearing a

6 military uniform and carrying a pistol. Did you mention earlier in your

7 statement given to the OTP the visit of these journalists?

8 A. I don't know. Maybe I did. Maybe I forgot. I don't know

9 exactly.

10 Q. Since you mentioned the visit of journalists in your statement

11 made to the OTP, did you ever mention this fact that Warden Krnojelac was

12 with them? Did you ever mention it before?

13 A. Most probably I did, but I don't know. I don't know.

14 Q. I'm going to read to you now a brief sentence. "Two days before

15 they came, the detainees were told to clean their rooms. They gave us

16 haircuts and shaves, and we were taken for a bath. I saw British

17 journalists from the window of my room. They were talking to detainees on

18 the ground floor, offering them cigarettes, until the Serbs came and

19 stopped the filming because the detainees were sticking their hands out of

20 the window in order to get some cigarettes because everybody wanted

21 them."

22 When you mention this visit of the British journalists, why did

23 you not mention what you said today for the first time in 2001, that you

24 saw Warden Krnojelac with them?

25 A. Perhaps I didn't remember it then. Perhaps it didn't occur to

Page 4166

1 me.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. Will you tell me, please, did you speak to

3 investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor about your interrogation?

4 A. I don't know, but most probably I did.

5 Q. Regarding this interrogation, did you ever before mention to the

6 Office of the Prosecutor that one of the investigators told you that

7 Milorad Krnojelac was a member of the Crisis Staff?

8 A. I most probably did.

9 Q. Are you sure?

10 A. I can't say I'm 100 per cent sure, but I most probably did.

11 Q. I have the Official Gazette of the municipality of Foca and the

12 decision on the establishment of the Crisis Staff. I'm asking you, are

13 you sure the investigator told you who the member of the Crisis Staff

14 were and that Milorad Krnojelac was among them.

15 A. I maintain that is so, 1 million per cent.

16 Q. I will read out to you now what you said to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor. On page 3, there is one sentence only and I will read

18 slowly. "I heard later from other prisoners in the KP Dom that members of

19 the Crisis Staff in Foca were the following: Vojo Maksimovic, Velibor

20 Ostojic, Dr. Mandic, Miro Stanic, and Cedo Zelovic."

21 You never mentioned Milorad Krnojelac anywhere, and that was in

22 1995.

23 A. When did I give that statement?

24 Q. You gave that statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995.

25 A. Well, maybe I forgot. Maybe I forgot to mention it then.

Page 4167

1 Q. And you remembered it now?

2 THE INTERPRETER: No audible answer.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Did you want to answer that question, sir?

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. My question was: And you remembered it now? We still have no

6 answer.

7 A. I remembered it now.

8 Q. Thank you. Will you tell me, please, what it is that jogged your

9 memory and made you remember that fact?

10 A. What made me remember?

11 Q. Yes, now in 2001.

12 A. What reminded me is when I was giving the statement at Paprica's,

13 in his office. Paprica told me that, "This statement that you gave is no

14 good at all. You haven't said a thing. If you come for an interrogation

15 again, you'll get a good beating. This will be reviewed by the Crisis

16 Staff. We are drafting it in five or six copies." And he mentioned where

17 the copies were going. I don't remember that part now. Then Vojo said at

18 that moment, "I know this man. He's telling the truth. He wasn't

19 involved in anything. He wasn't mixed up in anything," and he said, "If

20 the Crisis Staff returns this statement, you'll get a good beating." And

21 these people, and I don't remember all of them, that was the end of it.

22 Then Paprica said, "You'll give me the details now." They gave me

23 the statement for me to read. I had no glasses on me so I couldn't see

24 enough to read and I told them so. Vojo took the statement from me and

25 said, "Everything is written here exactly as you said it and everything

Page 4168

1 that you said has been recorded." The sheet was filled out on one side

2 and almost filled out on the other side, and he showed me a space where I

3 was supposed to sign it. He said, "But please sign your full name and

4 surname to fill the space completely so that nobody can add anything

5 later," and that was the end of my interrogation, and I signed that

6 statement.

7 Q. How come you didn't remember all these details in 1995? Because

8 you spoke about this interrogation and mentioned that you were

9 interrogated in the administrative building by Starovic and Paprica, and

10 you didn't remember a single detail about how you were interrogated. When

11 you were enumerating the members of the Crisis Staff, you didn't mention

12 the fact that Milorad Krnojelac was one of them, nor did you mention in

13 your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor your interrogation, when

14 speaking about your interrogation at Paprica's, you didn't mention even

15 then that you had learned that Milorad Krnojelac had been a member of the

16 Crisis Staff.

17 A. You mean the only thing I failed to mention was the warden.

18 Q. You didn't mention anything. You didn't mention that Starovic or

19 Paprica had told you about that.

20 A. I said that Starovic told me to sign my full name and surname.

21 You mean I didn't mention that in my statement?

22 Q. No.

23 A. I really don't know what they recorded there. I don't know

24 whether all that is correct.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I would

Page 4169

1 like to show this witness the Official Gazette of the municipality of Foca

2 and the decision on the establishment of the Crisis Staff. I would like

3 the witness to have a look at this and see if Milorad Krnojelac is on this

4 list.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I really don't think that this witness is the

6 appropriate person to be proving this document. It's never been suggested

7 that he saw it. May I suggest that the more appropriate course is either

8 to show him his statement to get him to agree that none of those things

9 are in it or ask the Prosecution whether it accepts that the statement

10 does not contain that material. The simplest procedure, if I may suggest,

11 is the second one. It saves an enormous amount of time.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I agree. I decided on

13 the spur of the moment to show him these papers, but I agree. He may not

14 be the best person to show them to. This piece of evidence will wait for

15 its turn. I agree that the Office of the Prosecutor, as you had

16 suggested -- I'm sorry. It seems to me I interrupted you.

17 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. I was going to say you can tender that

18 document, the Official Gazette, at any time that you want to. The

19 Prosecution will either require you to prove it properly if they have some

20 problem with it or they will accept it, and you can put documents into

21 evidence now. But I don't think that there's any point in asking this

22 witness about it because you haven't suggested to him that he ever saw

23 that. He is simply relying upon what somebody told him. What that person

24 told him may not have been correct.

25 You proceed how you wish, but that is the way I suggest that you

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Page 4171

1 should do it.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree.

3 Q. Sir, did you mention at any time before yesterday's

4 examination-in-chief that you knew that Milorad Krnojelac was a member of

5 the Crisis Staff?

6 A. I heard from everyone -- I don't know about everyone, actually,

7 but rumour had it at the camp that the people mentioned were on the Crisis

8 Staff together with the warden of the camp, Milorad Krnojelac. It's not

9 only something that I invented, as you seem to be insinuating, many people

10 at the camp knew that he was on the Crisis Staff.

11 Q. Why didn't you ever say this before? That's my question. Do you

12 agree that you failed to mention this in all of your previous statements

13 to the Office of the Prosecutor and to the security services centre?

14 A. Perhaps I forgot.

15 Q. Speaking to the Office of the Prosecutor of the security services

16 centre, did you mention at any time before that you had seen Milorad

17 Krnojelac at that drill that you spoke about?

18 A. I don't know. Maybe I did; maybe I didn't.

19 Q. You said during your examination-in-chief yesterday that you saw

20 Krnojelac wearing a uniform worn by officers. How do you distinguish

21 between uniforms?

22 A. What I said yesterday exactly was that he was wearing a soldier's

23 uniform, olive-green/grey, and that it was more like the one worn by

24 noncommissioned officers in the Yugoslav People's Army. It's more like an

25 officer's uniform, not a soldier's uniform. I said a NCO or an officer's

Page 4172

1 uniform but not the soldier's uniform, in any case.

2 Q. This is precisely what I asked. What are the characteristics on

3 the basis of which you distinguish between uniforms? How did you decide

4 that?

5 A. This uniform, olive-green/grey, the cloth is of better quality,

6 whereas the soldier's uniform is made of regular material used for

7 soldiers. We all know what that means.

8 Q. Sir, do you mean to say that from your window you could see that

9 the difference in cloth?

10 A. You can see that, of course, even from a window. You

11 can see that from a plane. Of course I saw it. This is a provocative

12 question. I can see the difference in cloth.

13 You know what a soldier's uniform is and what an officer's uniform

14 is. You know exactly what NCOs wear, what officers wear, and what

15 soldiers wear. This one definitely was the kind worn by NCOs or officers,

16 but no way it was the soldier's uniform.

17 Q. Did it have any insignia?

18 A. I didn't see that. I didn't even say I did. He had a belt and he

19 had a pistol in his belt on the right-hand side.

20 Q. The uniforms of a regular soldier and the uniforms of NCOs or

21 officers, are they different in terms of insignia?

22 A. They are, but I couldn't see the insignia. I couldn't see any

23 signs of rank. I couldn't tell.

24 Q. So you saw the difference in cloth and you couldn't see the

25 insignia. You didn't even notice whether there were any.

Page 4173

1 A. That's true. I didn't notice; that's true.

2 Q. What did it consist of, this NCO or officer's uniform?

3 A. Trousers, shirt, belt, pistol, shoes. I don't know what kind of

4 footwear. I don't know whether he wore a cap or not, whether he was

5 bareheaded or not. I don't remember that. I just remember the trousers,

6 the shirt, the belt, the pistol.

7 Q. You said yesterday and again today that you saw Krnojelac in the

8 courtyard when there was this big exchange of 75 men. Did you remember

9 that today? Is it one more thing that you remembered today? Because you

10 never mentioned it before?

11 A. On that day, and I'm saying this again, I said it yesterday --

12 Q. Please, sir, don't. Please don't repeat what you said yesterday.

13 We know what you said yesterday.

14 I'm asking you why you had never mentioned it before, either to

15 the Office of the Prosecutor or the secure services centre in Trnovo. Did

16 you remember that just yesterday?

17 A. I never said it because nobody ever asked me, and it's not

18 important. He could have been there and he didn't have to. We didn't go

19 into all these details before. Nobody ever asked me, for instance, how

20 many people had left on that occasion. They simply didn't go into

21 details.

22 Q. So the Office of the Prosecutor didn't ask you for any details and

23 did not inquire into matters regarding Milorad Krnojelac?

24 A. Where?

25 Q. In the statements you gave before.

Page 4174

1 A. Well, not the kind of detail we're going into here. I probably

2 didn't remember all the things and they didn't ask about them.

3 Q. You mean they didn't ask you about Milorad Krnojelac?

4 A. Of course they didn't. In fact, I don't remember. I can't

5 possibly remember.

6 Q. Please tell me, since you mentioned he was passing by the metal

7 door, is that the only exit out of the compound?

8 A. The main entrance to the compound is the only one, although there

9 is another one near the carpentry shop, but it's mostly used by vehicles,

10 trucks, cars, et cetera. But people used the main entrance, the metal

11 door to the building whenever there were exchanges and things like that.

12 Q. Is it another thing that you remembered only today that you saw

13 the warden with Boro Ivanovic, Sipcic, and Dragicevic?

14 A. Nobody asked me about that, and if I didn't mention it before,

15 that's why I didn't mention it.

16 Q. So you remembered it only today.

17 A. No, that's not true. I've always remembered it and I've always

18 kept it in my mind.

19 Q. Sir, do you know whether Ibrahim Sandal was beaten at the KP Dom?

20 A. I don't know. I never saw that.

21 Q. Was he in the KP Dom when you were brought?

22 A. He arrived in the KP Dom, as I said yesterday, ten days or

23 15 days or five days after me. I don't know that.

24 Q. In your examination-in-chief yesterday, you said, sir, that you

25 heard from a woman about the disappearance of 12 persons. When did you

Page 4175

1 hear that from the woman?

2 A. You mean you want the details?

3 Q. No, I don't want the details. I'm only asking you: Can you tell

4 me when you heard this from her?

5 A. I heard this when I arrived in Split. People called me in Split,

6 people who were looking for their relatives, husbands, friends. They were

7 inquiring about the fate of the people who had been at the camp, and I

8 said I knew those people and that they had stayed behind me at the camp.

9 And since those people knew it, I will tell you clearly what that --

10 Q. No, sir. My only question was: When did you hear from that woman

11 about the 12 people? So it was after your release, after you were in

12 Split.

13 A. That was in Split. It was in January or February 1993.

14 Q. You spoke yesterday about Dzemo Balic. Did you ever mention

15 before that Dzemo Balic had told you about that young man in the solitary

16 confinement?

17 A. You mean before. I don't know exactly. I most probably did, but

18 I don't know.

19 Q. No, you didn't mention it before.

20 A. That man in the solitary confinement cell.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. I didn't remember it, so that's probably why I didn't mention it.

23 Q. You said there existed two men named Balic. What were their first

24 names?

25 A. The one that I know was Dzemo. He was in my room. And another

Page 4176

1 Balic, when he was brought in and taken across the courtyard, he was badly

2 beaten up, black and blue, and there were three or four other people with

3 him brought from the village of Marinkovici. One of them was

4 Hasanbegovic, another was Deluet. They didn't come to my room. They

5 crossed the yard and were taken to solitary cells.

6 Q. Did you know that Balic from before?

7 A. No, I didn't. I knew Dzemo. I didn't know the other one. I just

8 knew his name was Balic.

9 Q. You heard that from people in your room?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You spoke about a person nicknamed Triva. Who is that man?

12 A. That is Obren Obrenovic, a guard at the KP Dom camp. I know that

13 he graduated from medical school.

14 Q. I don't need his personal details. Just please tell me: Where

15 did he get his nickname Triva? Are you sure it was his nickname?

16 A. Yes, it was. We generally called him Triva. All of them had

17 nicknames.

18 Q. You said he was the only one who had a wooden club.

19 A. Yes, the only one we saw in the compound.

20 Q. He was the only one among the guards? You didn't see anyone

21 else?

22 A. No, I personally didn't.

23 Q. Is it true that on the windows in the prisoners' quarters were

24 covered by paper sheets?

25 A. That is correct.

Page 4177

1 Q. Were some windows in the prisoners' quarters white-washed?

2 A. They had been painted over before in white paint. That's how we

3 found them. Nobody painted the windows while we were there. The paint

4 was whitish grey.

5 Q. Was there paint on the window panes?

6 A. No, there wasn't.

7 Q. But there were paper sheets?

8 A. In some places there were window panes, and where window panes

9 were broken, paper sheets were glued. In the former times, there were

10 some drawings on the wall, and when the windows were broken, we would take

11 these drawings off the walls and use them to paste over the windows.

12 That's what we did to close the windows to keep at least a little warm.

13 Q. You spoke, sir, about Halim Dedovic. Was he in your room?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was there another Halim Dedovic?

16 A. Not that I know of. I know this Halim Dedovic personally. He is

17 a barber from Foca. I know him well. I don't know any other ones.

18 Q. You said in your statement given to the OTP, "On another occasion,

19 Nedzib Babalija, Murat Durgut, Ibrahim Sandal, and Halim Dedovic were

20 taken out of my room and taken to the administrative building and beaten

21 up."

22 A. I didn't mention Halim Dedovic as being taken from my building

23 ever nor were any of them ever taken out. Halim Dedovic wasn't, Durgut

24 wasn't, and Nedzib Babalija wasn't. Nedzib Babalija came to my room in

25 Miljevina, and he was the one who came all beaten up.

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Page 4179

1 Q. Sir, you also mentioned in the same place that they were taken out

2 to the administration building, and you said, "They told me about it when

3 they came back." What is true? Did you make a mistake then or was your

4 statement misrecorded by the Office of the Prosecutor?

5 A. What I'm saying now is true. I don't remember what I said

6 before. They were brought to my room from Miljevina. Mujo Durgut --

7 Q. Please don't repeat this. So what is here in the statement you

8 gave to the OTP is not correct?

9 A. That they were taken to the gate for a beating.

10 Q. Yes, and that they were brought back to your room and that they

11 told you about it?

12 A. It's true that they were not taken out to the gate to be beaten

13 and then brought back. That is not true.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, that might be a good place to pause.

15 I remind you that where a witness does not accept what you put to

16 him about his statement, you're going to have to establish that fact. We

17 do not want these statements in just to prove that fact. May I suggest

18 that you ask the Prosecution informally to agree that what you have put is

19 accurate about the statement and then that can be recorded and we're not

20 then flooded with paper. If there is no agreement, then the document will

21 have to go in for that purpose, but you can't merely just assert something

22 to a witness and then tell us later that that is so unless there is some

23 proof of it.

24 We'll adjourn now until 11.30.

25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

Page 4180

1 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Your Honour, in view of the suggestion you made before the break,

5 I am going to formally ask the Prosecution whether they agree with the

6 fact that they -- the witness did not mention in his statement that

7 Milorad Krnojelac had been with the journalists who came to the KP Dom,

8 also that he did not mention that the investigator told him that Milorad

9 Krnojelac was a member of the Crisis Staff, that he did not mention this

10 at all in his statements, also that he did not mention that he had seen

11 Milorad Krnojelac in the afternoon when there was a state of emergency,

12 that this was not mentioned in his statement, and also that he did not

13 mention that he saw Milorad Krnojelac at all with Ivanovic Dragicevic and

14 Sipcic, the military men, which is what he mentioned today.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: That is correct, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. I think this will save an awful

18 lot of time, but do give the Prosecution warning you are going to ask them

19 so they can check themselves in the statements.

20 You proceed with the cross-examination. Thank you, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm sorry. I would just

22 like to add one more thing. Before the break, we talked about an incident

23 that the witness mentioned during the examination-in-chief, and I pointed

24 out to him that in the statement that he made to the Office of the

25 Prosecutor, he said that Nedzib Babalija, Murat Durgut Ibrahim Sandal, and

Page 4181

1 Halim Dedic were taken out of his room and taken to the administration

2 building and beaten up, and he said that they told him that when they were

3 brought back. I would like to ask the Office of the Prosecutor to tell me

4 whether they can agree that this is the statement that the witness did

5 make in 1995. This is page 10 in the B/C/S version. I think that it is

6 page 11 in the English version. Yes. Yes, 11 in the English version,

7 paragraph number 5.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. It's correct.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall

12 continue with the witness now. I think we'll be brief.

13 Q. You talked about an incident when a person called Salkic or Sacic

14 transmitted messages. You said that this person passed messages to

15 Muratovic and Malkic. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes, it's correct.

17 Q. You also said that he was in building 1.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Salkic, Sacic. You also said that Muratovic and Malkic were in

20 the room above you.

21 A. They were in my room.

22 Q. In your room? How come Salkic then passed massages to them?

23 A. Can I explain this in detail?

24 Q. Please don't do it in detail. Just tell us how he passed

25 messages.

Page 4182

1 A. I do have to give a few sentences. From one floor, he would let a

2 thread fall down to the ground floor and a little piece of paper was tied

3 to that thread. A guard, Elcic, noticed that little piece of paper and he

4 took it. He asked Sacic immediately what this was all about. When he

5 brought him, he said that he was passing this message to another man, that

6 he had some news as to what was going on. I don't know what kind of

7 message it was.

8 When they called him in for questioning, they asked him whether

9 there was any anybody else who passed messages that way. He spoke up and

10 said that in our building, it was done by Malkic and Avdo Muratovic. Then

11 they called Avdo Muratovic and Malkic in for an interrogation to that room

12 in my building, that guards' room down in the -- down on the ground floor,

13 and Muradif Music was there also. So they were interrogated there and

14 asked what this was all about, how they were doing this, and that was the

15 problem. They beat them there and things like that.

16 Q. First of all, sir, in the statement that you gave to the Office of

17 the Prosecutor, you did speak about this incident, but you said that he

18 was beaten up in relation to this incident, that is to say, a person whose

19 name is on that sheet of paper that is in front of you. I can't remember

20 the number of the exhibit. And that person is mentioned as your

21 relative.

22 A. As my relative?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. It wasn't that time, and it was not mentioned that he was beaten

25 up with regard to this particular subject. It wasn't my relative then.

Page 4183

1 My relative was not there then.

2 Q. You mentioned that your relative was involved. I'm going to read

3 it to you. You also mentioned that they sent messages to one another.

4 I'm going to read this to you now. It's on page number 10 of the B/C/S

5 version, seventh paragraph: "One day, Avdo Muratovic, Sacic, Fahrudin

6 Malkic, and" I am not going to read that name. That person is marked as

7 your relative, "were beaten by a guard, Obren Obrenovic, when they were

8 noticed passing messages to one another from the upper floor to the lower

9 floor. I saw them being beaten in the room in our building which was used

10 by the guards as an office." Is this correct what you stated to the OTP

11 or is what you said today correct?

12 A. What I said to the OTP is correct, but my relative was not

13 involved. My relative was not involved. I did not mention him before

14 either as far as I know.

15 Q. That's not the only difference. You also said they were beaten up

16 because they were passing messages to one another. Today you told a

17 different story.

18 A. What do you mean I told a different story? I said that they sent

19 messages to one another, Sacic, Malkic, Avdo, and Sacic --

20 Q. Sir, how could they send messages to one another when Sacic was in

21 a completely different building? And now you said that he was sending a

22 message to the ground floor and that he also spoke up and said that the

23 others were doing that too. That's what you said a few minutes ago.

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Here you say that these people were exchanging messages between

Page 4184

1 themselves, sending messages to one another?

2 A. I don't know how they did that. Sacic was sending this message to

3 the ground floor, down to the yard, and who he was passing this message

4 to, I don't know. But then when he was being interrogated about this, he

5 also said that Avdo and Malkic were doing such things as well. That's

6 what I said, that's what's correct.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I remind you, sir. You really must wait before you

8 start your answer. You are making it very difficult for the interpreters.

9 We want to know what you say, but we will not hear it if you interfere

10 with the interpreters' job.

11 Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. In line with

13 your suggestion, I'm going to formally ask the Prosecutor whether they

14 agree that in his statement given to the OTP, the witness did mention his

15 relative as being involved in this incident and that he did notice that

16 these people were sending messages to one another from the upper floor to

17 the lower floor. That is page number 10 or, rather, page number 11 in the

18 B/C/S version -- sorry, in the English version, page 11 in the English

19 version.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. The cousin is mentioned.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

22 I wonder, Mr. Bakrac, how important this particular dispute is,

23 but I rely upon you to pick the ones which are important and not dwell

24 upon these somewhat more incident the matters.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 4185

1 Q. You said that you mentioned that Halim Konjo was taken out to be

2 beaten up. Was he taken out on his own?

3 A. Halim Konjo was not taken out on his own exactly on the night

4 between the 12th and the 13th of June. I don't know exactly. And

5 Uzinovic must have been the one who was also there and also the one who

6 was commander of the traffic police, Nurko Nisic. From that day onwards,

7 people were not taken out individually. Two, three, four were taken out,

8 things like that.

9 Q. Sir, yesterday you said to me or, rather, yesterday said during

10 the examination-in-chief that Nurko Nisic was taken out the other day, not

11 the same day as Halim Konjo?

12 A. I'm not saying he had to be taken out the same day with Halim

13 Konjo. If not the same day, he could have been taken out, two, three,

14 four, five days later, but at any rate, he was taken out during the first

15 six days.

16 Q. I'm going to read out to you what you have said, what you said to

17 the OTP in your statement. "On the 12th of June, around 9.00 or 10.00

18 p.m., four detainees why taken out." So you mentioned the exact time and

19 date. Four prisoners: Their names are Halim Konjo, Nurko Nisic, Zulfo

20 Veiz, and Munib Veiz.

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. So this is correct, that they were taken out on the 12th, these

23 four persons, together?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 4186

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Page 4187

1 Q. Sir, did you ever mention before in any one of your statements,

2 either to the public security station or to the investigators of the OTP,

3 that you heard that Milorad Krnojelac said that the KP Dom would be closed

4 down, that some persons would be set free, others would be exchanged, and

5 yet others would be transferred to other camps. Did you ever state that

6 before to the Office of the Prosecutor?

7 A. Before? I'm not sure, but I most probably did.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could the Prosecutor please formally

9 agree with me. Did the witness ever mention in the statements given to

10 the OTP this particular distinction between such persons, that Milorad

11 Krnojelac ever mentioned this to anyone.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's not mentioned in the statement.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: However, Your Honour, just one additional

15 remark. The witness said he never heard Krnojelac say that, he said

16 Paprica told him about these details, not Krnojelac.

17 JUDGE HUNT: That's the evidence you mean. There is reference to

18 the incident at all in the statement. Thank you

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the usher please

22 help me and place photograph 407477 on the ELMO. That is the lower

23 photograph. The photograph bears the number 407477. It's the one below.

24 Q. Could the witness please show me the windows from where he heard,

25 as he said, all these beatings that were taking place in the KP Dom.

Page 4188

1 A. Do you want me to tell you where the window of my room is, where I

2 was?

3 Q. No, no, no. Can you show the window of the room from where these

4 beatings were heard?

5 A. It's either one or the other, this one or that one, but this first

6 one most probably. This is the door where you enter, and these are the

7 windows on the ground floor.

8 Q. For the transcript, I'm saying that the witness is pointing on

9 photograph 407477 to the first and second windows to the left from the

10 metal door that is the entrance into the administration building from the

11 yard of the prison. Thank you.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask the usher to

13 place on the ELMO the floor plan.

14 Q. Witness, please, before we move on to this question, tell me,

15 these windows that you pointed to, those are the windows that you heard

16 the sounds of beatings from and Halim Konjo, Nurko Nisic, Munib Veiz and

17 Zulfo Veiz were taken out of there, right?

18 A. Where did I hear this? Is that what you mean?

19 Q. Yes, yes, yes. But I'm asking whether these sounds came from

20 those rooms that you just pointed out on the photograph?

21 A. Yes, the rooms I just pointed out on the photograph, yes.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you are coming in too early. Please pause.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I do apologise, Your Honour. I shall bear this in mind.

25 Sir, this is a floor plan. On the ELMO there is a floor plan of

Page 4189

1 the KP Dom. I'm interested in the following: Can you show me the office

2 or, rather, the place where you were interrogated or interviewed?

3 A. I can't really find my way on this photograph. I don't know how

4 to do that. But I can describe to you where I was because I am familiar

5 with the KP Dom.

6 Q. When you passed through the metal door into the hallway -- when

7 you went to the main gate, did you go to the left part of the

8 administrative building or the right part?

9 A. The left one, upstairs. The left one. When I went out, I passed

10 first the metal door and then yet another door and then we came to the

11 exit from this building. When we reached the exit, then I was supposed to

12 go left. I was supposed to go left when I was taken for an interrogation.

13 Q. That's in the same part that you pointed to when you said that

14 that's where you heard the beatings from?

15 A. When entering from the external part of the building, when

16 actually you enter the KP Dom from the outside, these windows where they

17 were beaten are on the right-hand side. However, when I was taken for

18 interrogations, I was taken to the left side and I was taken upstairs.

19 Upstairs, one floor up.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Despite your promise to keep it in mind, Mr. Bakrac,

21 on both times, both questions, you came in too early. It really does make

22 it difficult, so please slow down.

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour.

24 Q. If I understood you correctly, sir, you were interrogated in the

25 part of the building that is opposite that part of the administrative

Page 4190

1 building where you pointed out that the beatings took place.

2 A. When you go out of the prison, out of the yard, on the left-hand

3 side, when you enter from the outside, when you enter the prison from the

4 outside, the rooms for beatings were on the right-hand side.

5 Q. That is to say that the place where you were interrogated and

6 interviewed is in the opposite part of the administration building as

7 compared to the premises where the beatings took place?

8 A. When we get out of the prison, we pass through halls, and at the

9 very exit out of the KP Dom there are stairs that take you upstairs and

10 that's on the right side. I was taken to the right side, whereas the

11 windows for beatings are on the left-hand side.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. On which floor was this office where you were

13 interrogated?

14 A. Most probably on that first floor. It was one flight up. The

15 first floor compared to the ground floor.

16 Q. Sir, in your statement and during the examination-in-chief, you

17 said which persons were taken out and beaten. Did you see all these

18 persons when they were taken out or did you hear about some of these

19 persons being taken out from yet other persons?

20 A. I saw all these persons being taken out and I mentioned them too.

21 Q. You also said that after some beatings and after some people were

22 taken out, you heard gunshots as well. Where did these gunshots come

23 from?

24 A. To tell you the truth, gunshots were heard every night within the

25 compound of the KP Dom and around the KP Dom. People were shooting from

Page 4191

1 various weapons. Why they were shooting, we don't know. However, the

2 moment when the cries and screams stopped, at that point and in that area

3 where they were beaten, gunshots were heard from there, individual

4 gunshots. These were either pistols or rifles. It wasn't really bursts

5 of gunfire. These were individual shots.

6 Q. Do you agree that in the statement that you made to the OTP you

7 said that you heard shots that came from the direction of the bridge on

8 the Drina?

9 A. Gunshots were heard from the bridge on the Drina as well. They

10 were individual gunshots or bursts of gunfire.

11 Q. I am reading this to you, and I am talking to you about the

12 gunshots that you heard after the beatings stopped.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down.

14 JUDGE HUNT: There has been a very justifiable complaint made that

15 you are going far, far too quickly, Mr. Bakrac. I know you want to get

16 through this, but it doesn't get us anywhere. Now, we've lost the speed,

17 I know. We certainly lost most of your question. So, please, would you

18 repeat the question and do it more slowly.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Sir, you explained just now that you heard practically every night

21 gunshots within the KP Dom and around the KP Dom. I'm talking

22 specifically about the gunshots that you heard when the beatings stopped.

23 So in relation to the incidents related to the beatings, you said that you

24 heard individual gunshots. I'm asking you whether you agree that in your

25 statement to the OTP you said that you heard these gunshots coming from

Page 4192

1 the direction of the bridge on the Drina.

2 A. I agree. But gunshots were coming from the room where the

3 beatings were taking place.

4 Q. Sir, what is correct now? Just now you said that you agreed that

5 you heard gunshots coming from the bridge on the Drina River and then you

6 added that you actually heard gunshots coming from the room for beatings.

7 A. Both are correct. Both are correct.

8 Q. In your statement that you made to the OTP, you did not mention

9 that you heard these gunshots coming from the room where the beatings were

10 taking place.

11 A. Perhaps I forgot. Perhaps I did not say this. But nobody

12 interrogated me very precisely the way these interrogations in here are

13 taking place, one detail after another. When I was giving my previous

14 statements, these details were not is that precise, that exact when this

15 statement was made. It's not like here, for instance, or before when I

16 was interrogated that other time.

17 Q. Sir, we're not talking about precise or imprecise questions here.

18 This is a specific fact that you are describing in different ways. So in

19 your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in 1995, you said

20 specifically that gunshots that are tied to the end of the beatings, in

21 your opinion, came from the direction of the bridge on the Drina River.

22 You did not mention that you heard these gunshots from the rooms for

23 beatings.

24 A. It is correct that I said that the gunshots came from the bridge

25 on the Drina, that direction. Perhaps I did not mention this. Perhaps

Page 4193

1 they did not write this down. But it is also correct that gunshots were

2 heard from the room where the beatings took place. In addition to that,

3 generally speaking, there were gunshots every evening within the compound,

4 outside the compound.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. So these were gunshots that came from the rooms

6 that you pointed to on the photograph; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you remembered that just now?

9 A. I knew that then too. I never forgot that. I never forgot that.

10 Q. But you did not mention it earlier?

11 A. Well, why did I not mention it? Perhaps I forgot. Nobody asked

12 me.

13 Q. Thank you. Tell me, sir, do you know Ismet Isakovic and Safet

14 Avdic?

15 A. Ismet Isakovic, nicknamed Karson, born in Gorazde, was in my room.

16 I know him. Safet Avdic, director, engineer, director of forestry from

17 Maglic, he was also in my room. Yes, I know him.

18 Q. Were they in your room throughout your stay there?

19 A. No, they were not there throughout my stay. They came from

20 building 1. They came to my room. I don't know exactly. June,

21 July. I don't know exactly. August. I don't know.

22 Q. In June, July, August, when they came to your room, until you were

23 released were they in your room?

24 A. I don't know exactly, but one group from my room was transferred

25 and taken to the floor above. I don't know which room. And whether

Page 4194

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Page 4195

1 Karson and Safet Avdic were taken there too, I don't know, but I know

2 about other people whom I can enumerate who were taken there.

3 Q. No, thank you. Please tell me: Do you know a guard by the name

4 of Risto Ivanovic?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What kind of guard was he?

7 A. The best, very good.

8 Q. You spoke about the moment when you were taken for an exchange.

9 You said, and I would like to repeat it for the benefit of the

10 transcript -- did I understand you correctly as saying that a military

11 truck came to pick you up, a military Deutz?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And that you were taken over by soldiers?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Did you really say that these soldiers took away your watches,

16 money, et cetera?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. This money and the watches, did you have them on you in the

19 KP Dom?

20 A. When I arrived at the KP Dom, I had no money, Rasim Kajgana gave

21 me 5.000 dinars. He said, "You should have that." And as for the watch,

22 I had it on my hand when I came to the KP Dom.

23 Q. You had a watch throughout the time you were in KP Dom and Rasim

24 Kajgana gave you 5.000 dinars?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 4196

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no

3 further questions.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Re-examination.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

7 Q. Witness, let me turn your mind back to the interview you gave in

8 Trnovo in December 1992.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, would like to

10 give the original, that's document ID 131 to the witness.

11 Q. Witness, you do not need to read this. I just would like to you

12 have a look at it and identify your signature if you can.

13 A. May I? Yes. This is exactly my signature.

14 Q. When you look at this statement, it's three and a half pages,

15 isn't it? If you look through it, just -- there are page numbers. Is it

16 three and a half pages long?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You can put it aside, sir. I just -- do you remember how long

19 this interview took? How long did it last.

20 A. In Trnovo?

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. That lasted for about a half a day. It took one afternoon, as far

23 as I can remember.

24 Q. Did you -- do you recall what you were focused on, what was the

25 main subject of this questioning?

Page 4197

1 A. I remember that well. The main subject they were interested in

2 was how many detainees had remained in the camp. That was their main

3 concern. They wanted me to enumerate the people by name and surname, and

4 that was their main task, and they told me so.

5 Q. Did you also tell them in detail how you were arrested in Jelec

6 and what beating and mistreatment you survived until you reached the

7 KP Dom?

8 A. I couldn't tell you the details, but as far as I can remember,

9 they did ask me that same thing. But they didn't ask about details. The

10 interrogation went on very quickly.

11 Q. Did you also tell them about who was beaten in the KP Dom and who

12 disappeared from the KP Dom and did you give a lot of names?

13 A. I think I did. To the best of my recollection, I gave all those

14 statements and they did inquire, but they said the main purpose of this

15 questioning is to find out how many people remained there. And when I

16 couldn't remember some people, they gave me time to think. That took up a

17 lot of time. Sometimes I wouldn't be able to remember a first name or a

18 last name.

19 Q. Were you asked about the prison hierarchy at all on this

20 occasion? Do you recall?

21 A. I don't know who the main person was. I don't know exactly. They

22 may have asked me, but I couldn't give you any details right now. They

23 asked me about the warden. They may have and then maybe they didn't. I'm

24 not sure about whether they asked me about the warden or the hierarchy.

25 They didn't, in all probability.

Page 4198

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Bakrac, would the Defence agree that

2 Krnojelac, Todovic or Rasevic, none of the prison hierarchy is mentioned

3 in this statement at all?

4 JUDGE HUNT: There is a saying in English, Mr. Bakrac, that what

5 is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence agrees, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: I'm very grateful to the parties for following this

8 procedure. It's one which I am very familiar with, and I think it is time

9 it was introduced here in the Tribunal. Thank you.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the Defence also agree that the witness

11 actually gave a lot of names of people who remained behind, and it's

12 actually on page 4 of the English version, a chapter with great many

13 names, and also on page 3 in the English version, a chapter with a lot of

14 names of people who were beaten in the KP Dom?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The Defence agrees.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18 Q. Witness, let's us now turn to the statement you gave to the OTP in

19 October 1995.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would also like

21 to show this statement, the English version, and that is actually ID 130,

22 to the witness.

23 A. This is my signature. I did sign this, but I had forgotten how

24 these papers looked. I remembered only now. And my signature is really

25 my signature.

Page 4199

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

2 Q. If you look at the last page of the text, is it 14 pages?

3 A. That is correct, and I signed all of them. Those are my authentic

4 signatures. All of this is correct. It's all right. Everything is all

5 right.

6 Q. Witness, do you remember on what issues this interview was focused

7 on?

8 A. When I was giving this statement in 1995, what the focus was? Did

9 I understand you correctly?

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. May I start? They started from the beginning, how the war in Foca

12 began, how things developed, where I moved about, how I was arrested, what

13 the arrest looked like, how I was transferred to Foca. They asked me to

14 tell things in their chronological order. In the process of questioning,

15 they seemed to think that I was taking a long time and they asked me to be

16 as brief as possible, to make it concise. So I shortened it and reached

17 the point where I told them the story about my release and how I left

18 Foca.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the Defence agree that the first nine

20 pages of this statement, actually to the middle of the ninth page of the

21 English version is dealing with the political background and what the

22 witness had survived before his arrest in Jelec and after his arrest in

23 Jelec until his arrival in KP Dom?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the Defence

25 agrees.

Page 4200

1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Would the Defence agree that on page 12, the

3 witness, about Mr. Krnojelac, said, "Mico Krnojelac was the head of the

4 KP Dom Foca. His deputy was Gagovic," and so on, and does not mention

5 Krnojelac at all any further except for on that same page in the last line

6 and also in relation to Halim Konjo's death?

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The Defence agrees with

8 what the Prosecution is saying regarding references to Krnojelac, but the

9 Prosecutor doesn't seem to have read that regarding the so-called

10 administration of the KP Dom the witness also spoke about Mitar Rasevic,

11 Todovic, investigators, et cetera. That is an entire paragraph relating

12 to the structure of administration. I think the Prosecution will agree

13 with this. So this has been read out only partially, but the entire

14 paragraph relates to the structure of the administration, the persons

15 employed there, and so on and so forth.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure what it is that you're seeking to refer

17 to there. Is there some other reference to your client, Mr. Krnojelac, by

18 implication in that paragraph?

19 As I understand it, the Prosecution is only seeking to demonstrate

20 that the statement deals in a very minor way with your client. It doesn't

21 go into anything about him very fully. Is what you are saying now that

22 there is something in the statement beyond that to you which the

23 Prosecution has referred concerning your client?

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I agree that my

25 client is mentioned, as the Prosecution says. He was the warden and his

Page 4201

1 deputy was Gagovic. But the whole paragraph continues to deal with the

2 administration and its structure. But we agree it is his statement and

3 what the Prosecution has read out is correct.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I can read this paragraph it's

6 actually just a ten-liner paragraph but I actually avoided to say it

7 because it's so many names of guards in this paragraph and I'm not so good

8 at pronouncing those names. Therefore, I actually did not read the whole

9 entire paragraph. It's a paragraph dealing with all the people, the

10 administration, of course, and the guards.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Your difficulty, which is very understandable, with

12 the pronunciation of those names will therefore make you read it out more

13 slowly so the interpreters can follow.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I can read this. The interpreters

15 should have the statement as well and can look at it.

16 "Mico Krnojelac was the head of KP Dom Foca. His deputy was

17 Gagovic. The police commander at KP Dom was Mitar Rasevic (father's name

18 Dorde). Todovic was the head of the workers in the KP Dom. The

19 interrogators in the KP Dom were Zoran Paprica, Vojo Starevic, and

20 Vladisic. The guards in KP Dom were Predrag Stefanovic 'Predo,' Cancar,

21 Vladicic, Blagojevic, Zoran Matovic, Obren Obrenovic, Perisic, Elcic,

22 Dobrilo Pljevaljcic, Roko, Micevic, Risto Ivanovic, Milivoje Milutinovic,

23 Vukovic, Milic, Savic 'Kostolomac,' Miro Burilo, Prodanovic, Kunarac,

24 Koroman, and Milic Mladenovic."

25 Is that what you said? Is that okay?

Page 4202

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Page 4203

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

2 JUDGE HUNT: That's sufficient. Yes. Thank you.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And let me refer and ask Defence

4 counsel in relation to page 10 in the English version, paragraph 2 -- or

5 better I just read this. I think it's easier to read this.

6 "The nights of 12/13 June and 22/23 June 1992

7 were the most" --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. Do you know where it is in the B/C/S

9 version? Thank you.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's on page 9 and it's the seventh

11 paragraph.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: "The nights of 12/13 June and 22/23 June

14 1992, were the most terrible. On 12 June at about 9/10 p.m., four

15 prisoners were taken out. Their names are Halim Konjo, Nurko Nisic, Zulfo

16 Veiz, and Munib Veiz. That day, Blagojevic, Elcic, and Vukovic were among

17 the guards on duty and they were calling out and taking these prisoners to

18 the administration building. On 18 June, I heard from [redacted]

19 that the head of KP Dom, Krnojelac, told him that Halim Konjo had died in

20 the solitary cell."

21 I have mentioned the name. I'm sorry. I should have

22 replaced it by his initials.

23 "RJ was a former colleague teacher of Krnojelac and used to have

24 coffee with him every ten days in KP Dom. I also heard later that the

25 body of Munib Veiz was found at Gorazde in the Drina River."

Page 4204

1 Do you agree that this is a reference to his conversation with

2 RJ?

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And there is yet another paragraph I would

6 like to read out and have the Defence agree to, and that is actually the

7 reference on page 9 to the interrogation of the witness.

8 JUDGE HUNT: And the B/C/S version?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In the B/C/S version it's on page 9. It's

10 the fourth paragraph in the B/C/S version.

11 "Twenty to thirty days after I reached KP Dom, I was interrogated

12 by Zoran Paprica and Vojo Starovic in the administration building. I was

13 not beaten. I was never beaten in KP Dom."

14 Would the Defence agree that this is the only reference in the

15 statement related to the witness's interrogation and that it is followed

16 by several pages of -- or pages of descriptions of beatings?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, The Defence agrees.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20 Q. Witness, when you came to The Hague to testify, was it actually

21 the first time that you were asked in detail about where you saw

22 Mr. Krnojelac, what you heard about him, and all the details you

23 remembered related to him?

24 A. When I was summoned --

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honour, I have an

Page 4205

1 objection. When the Prosecution says details relating to him, I wish to

2 say that earlier, Defence has already shown, through questions, that the

3 witness had already spoken about facts which are now related to Milorad

4 Krnojelac. If you put the question now this way, saying that the witness

5 did not mention details related to Milorad Krnojelac, that sounds

6 different. When he enumerated the members of the Crisis Staff, he didn't

7 mention Krnojelac then. When he spoke about the visit of the journalists,

8 he didn't mention Krnojelac then. He didn't mention the warden in his

9 statements, but he did refer to Krnojelac in his testimony.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, I think we've been over this ground many

11 times. The way in which statements are taken by investigators,

12 particularly in relation to the matters before this Tribunal, are they ask

13 them everything they can about what happened. At that stage, there's no

14 decision taken as to who is going to be charged. It's very different to

15 what usually happens in domestic legal proceedings. After these

16 statements have been compiled, then it is given to somebody who work out

17 who is going to be charged.

18 Now, the point you have made is a good one and one which will have

19 to be considered, but the Prosecution are also entitled, you having raised

20 that issue, to bring out in re-examination why it is that the witness is

21 now giving us details not about what your client is now being asserted as

22 having been involved in but his particular position in the KP Dom, and

23 that is, as I understand it, what the question is directed to and that's

24 another matter we're going to consider. But you can't criticise him

25 for not giving these details before and then prevent the Prosecution from

Page 4206

1 saying, "Well, this is the first time he's ever been asked about those

2 sorts of details." That's all the Prosecution is doing, and fairness

3 demands they should be entitled to do it. What weight we give to it is a

4 different matter.

5 Yes, you proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

7 Q. Witness, let me repeat the question. Is it here in The Hague the

8 first -- it is here for the first time that you are asked so specific

9 questions about his -- your saying Krnojelac and his position?

10 A. Here before this Court specific questions. Not specific questions

11 were asked about Krnojelac himself. I was asked to recount in

12 chronological order what had happened and that's what I did, as far as I

13 understood, to the best of my understanding.

14 Questions were put to me like, "Was Krnojelac the warden of the KP

15 Dom?" All of us who were in that camp, we know that he was the warden.

16 That is indubitable. We knew that from the guards, from the inmates, and

17 we all knew that Krnojelac was the warden of the KP Dom.

18 Q. Witness, that was not my question. My question was: All these

19 details that you were asked here in The Hague about when you saw him, what

20 he was wearing, who he was with, is that the first time that you actually

21 were asked all these details, here in The Hague?

22 A. I understand you now. No, nobody had asked me questions like that

23 before, questions like that in detail. They were not asked and I didn't

24 answer them. They asked me in the sequence that I followed in my

25 statements. They didn't ask me in such great detail as here. During

Page 4207

1 earlier questionings, they didn't ask questions strictly about the

2 warden. They asked me in general about my experience, what I had been,

3 what it was like, et cetera.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions that the

5 Prosecution wanted to ask.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for coming here to give your

7 evidence. Thank you for the evidence which you've given. You are now

8 free to leave.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Smith, is 122 the next one?

12 MR. SMITH: That's correct, Your Honour. He's asked for no

13 protective measures in this case.

14 JUDGE HUNT: What is his name?

15 MR. SMITH: Mr. Amor Masovic. He's president of the State

16 Commission for Tracing of Missing Persons in Bosnia.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

18 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, before the witness comes in, you should

19 have received a folder this morning which is a revised version of a folder

20 of documents that relate to this particular witness. Some documents have

21 been removed from the original folder that was provided at the beginning

22 of the case because they were deemed less relevant and a number of

23 documents have been added which are quite relevant to his testimony. The

24 folder -- the Defence has received a copy of the folder, and they've

25 received the majority of the information a couple of weeks ago, and a

Page 4208

1 document marked 240/5, which is a list of detainees at the KP Dom that are

2 still recorded as missing with the commission, was provided to them last

3 week.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

5 MR. SMITH: We tried to get some agreement on the documents, Your

6 Honour, but as a number of documents are summary documents, summaries of

7 records held by the commission, because of the -- obviously the large

8 amount of documentation that would be required to bring -- to substantiate

9 each record, these summary documents have not at this stage been agreed to

10 by the Defence. They want some more foundation as to their reliability

11 before I think they will be in a position to either agree or not agree.

12 JUDGE HUNT: And that's the subject matter of the evidence of the

13 witness?

14 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, you keep talking to each other, counsel

16 on each side, to see whether it is you can come to an agreement. It may

17 be that Mr. Bakrac will want to cross-examine him before doing so.

18 MR. SMITH: Yes.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE HUNT: Will you please make the solemn declaration in the

21 document which is being handed to you, sir?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Please sit down, Mr. Masovic.

25 WITNESS: AMOR MASOVIC

Page 4209

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, before I commence the questioning, the

3 witness has a copy of the binder in front of him which are largely the

4 documents or are the documents that have been produced by him and prepared

5 by him as well.

6 JUDGE HUNT: That should save a lot of time, thank you.

7 Examined by Mr. Smith:

8 Q. Mr. Masovic, good morning. What is your full name and your

9 professional occupation?

10 A. Good morning. Amor Masovic is my name. I'm a lawyer by

11 profession, and I hold the office of president of the State Commission for

12 Searching for Missing Persons of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm also chairman

13 of the Federal Commission of Bosnia-Herzegovina for Searching for Missing

14 Persons.

15 Q. And you're also a member of the Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When was the State Commission for the Tracing of Missing Persons

19 first established? What year?

20 A. It was established in the month of April 1996.

21 Q. And before April 1996, did the substance of that commission, the

22 staff, did they operate under a different name?

23 A. That's right. Practically the entire staff of that commission

24 operated under the name of The State Commission for the Exchange of

25 Prisoners of War, Persons Deprived of Their Freedom, and also for keeping

Page 4210

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Page 4211

1 records of missing and deceased persons on the territory of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 Q. And what was the short title of that commission?

4 A. The State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War.

5 Q. And when was this State Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners

6 of War, when was that first established?

7 A. In the month of April 1992, the beginning of April.

8 Q. And during the war, did the Serb authorities and the Croatian

9 authorities also have similar commissions for the exchange of prisoners of

10 war?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when did the -- when was the Serb commission established for

13 the exchange of prisoners of war?

14 A. Very soon, I think. I think in June or perhaps even the month of

15 May 1992.

16 Q. And when was the Croat commission established?

17 A. It was established even before that. It operated through the HVO,

18 and I think it was established already before April because there had

19 already been some clashes between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Serbs

20 then.

21 Q. And the HVO stands for the Croatian Defence Council?

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. In 1997, did the Croat commission and the Bosnian commission, did

24 they join together under one political umbrella and become the Federal

25 Commission for the Tracing of Missing Persons?

Page 4212

1 A. That's right. In the month of July 1997, the federal commission

2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established in which the Bosnian Muslims and the

3 Bosnian Croats participate.

4 Q. And in practice, do the two commissions, the Croat commission and

5 the Bosnian commission, do they operate relatively independently under

6 this one umbrella?

7 A. You can put it that way, that they operate independently, although

8 they are formally the federal commission of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. And when did you first start work with the State Commission For

10 the Exchange of Prisoners of War?

11 A. In August, in the second half of August 1992.

12 Q. And what position did you have when you started?

13 A. At first I was a member of that commission, then I was acting

14 chairman, and finally until the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina ended I

15 became president -- chairman of the commission.

16 Q. And in April 1996, were you appointed as president of the State

17 Commission for the Tracing of Missing Persons?

18 A. That's right. The newly established commission for tracing

19 missing persons.

20 Q. And during the war, what was the main role and function of the

21 State Commission for the Tracing of Prisoners of War? What was your main

22 purpose?

23 A. Well, its main role is evident from its very name; that is to say,

24 to trace persons who are in enemy prisons, and also persons who were

25 deprived of their liberty during the conflict, also keeping records of the

Page 4213

1 wounded and killed, as well as civilians and military persons who went

2 missing during armed conflicts that occurred in the territory of the

3 former Yugoslavia. That is to say, in addition to keeping records, the

4 task of the commission was to engage in negotiations with the enemy and to

5 try to release from enemy prisons and camps the largest number of detained

6 persons possible, especially civilians who had been taken prisoner or,

7 rather, detain.

8 Q. And in the post-war period, say from 1996 onwards, did the nature

9 of the commission's work change? Did you hear my question?

10 A. I did not get a translation. I only heard it in English.

11 MR. SMITH: Perhaps I'll just try again.

12 Q. In the post-war period, say from 1996 onwards, did the nature of

13 the commission's work change compared to that of during the war?

14 A. Well, in a way, yes. The State Commission for the Exchange of

15 Prisoners of War was primarily dealing with persons who were alive,

16 persons who were taken prisoner; whereas this commission that deals with

17 tracing missing persons unfortunately deals with persons who have

18 probably died in the meantime. Most of these missing persons are

19 basically dead now, so we are really looking for persons who lost their

20 lives during the war because it's been such a long time.

21 Q. And a large part of your work in the post-war period relates to

22 conducting exhumations or coordinating exhumations in Bosnia to locate

23 these missing people; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And can you be more specific? What particular role does the

Page 4214

1 commission play in the exhumation activity in Bosnia?

2 A. The task of the commission is, on the basis of information that we

3 compile from various sources, to locate individual and mass graves and

4 then to give notification regarding these gravesites. That is to say, if

5 we come to the conclusion that buried bodies are still within these

6 graves, then we inform the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to

7 say, the state attorney, the courts, and persons from the state commission

8 attend the exhumation itself. Sometimes we also attend the autopsies of

9 the victims.

10 Our task, finally, is to have contact with the families of the

11 persons who are deceased when we assume that the victims we identified

12 are the members of their families, and then we facilitate communication

13 with these families and with the communities to which we assume the

14 deceased persons belonged.

15 Q. And what criteria does the commission use before it commences to

16 activate an investigation into a possible exhumation site in terms of

17 whether there was evidence of a war crime or a person dying of natural or

18 unnatural causes?

19 A. I said that we use all possible sources that can lead us to a

20 locality where a certain number of persons was buried, one or more

21 persons. When speaking of these sources, we primarily establish contact

22 with family members of missing persons, then also with possible witnesses,

23 regardless of whether these are direct witnesses, immediate witnesses who

24 were present during the liquidation and who managed to survive, or

25 indirect witnesses, persons who found out indirectly that there are

Page 4215

1 individual or mass graves.

2 Also, we rely on other sources apart from family members, that is

3 to say, police reports, court reports, information provided by the

4 International Red Cross, information provided by local Red Cross

5 organisations, and also data that we receive from local commissions or,

6 rather, local authorities.

7 Q. And your authority to instigate investigations into possible

8 exhumation sites, I assume that only relates to deaths that are suspected

9 of being of unnatural causes rather than natural causes?

10 A. That's right. We are duty-bound, along the lines of the decision

11 that was passed by the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina to establish

12 this commission, to investigate these cases; that is to say, cases related

13 to persons who went missing during the conflict and when we are talking

14 about persons who were killed during the war. We do not deal with persons

15 who possibly died during the course of 1992 or 1993 due to natural causes.

16 Q. And in the post-war period, from 1996 onwards, what relationship

17 does your commission have with the Croat part of the federal commission

18 and the Serb commission?

19 A. Well, from 1996 onwards, formally, legally speaking, there are

20 still two commissions, the state commission of Bosnia-Herzegovina and also

21 the commission on the exchange of prisoners of war that is still attached

22 to the Croatian army known as the HVO. In 1997 a separate commission, a

23 separate entity commission was established which is called the Federal

24 Commission For Missing Persons. That happened in 1997.

25 And I already said formally, legally, there has been one

Page 4216

1 commission since then, and this part does function rather autonomously,

2 this part which represents the Croatian Defence Council.

3 Q. In 1996, there was an agreement made between the Croat

4 commission- this is before it became the federal commission - and the

5 Bosnian Serb -- the Republika Srpska commission in relation to

6 exhumations. And what was the basis of that agreement?

7 A. That agreement is known as the Banja Luka agreement. It was

8 concluded in Banja Luka in Republika Srpska in June 1996. It was

9 initiated by the representatives of the office of the high representative

10 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it involved all three former warring parties,

11 that is to say, the state commission, the commission of the Croat Defence

12 Council, and the commission of Republika Srpska.

13 The essence of this agreement has to deal with exhumations. It

14 makes it possible for the authorities of one entity to cross the

15 administrative border into the other entity and to engage in exhumation on

16 the territory of the other entity. That is the essence of this agreement.

17 So, for example, the Serb commission can come to the territory of

18 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the territory of Republika

19 Srpska, that is to say, to the territory of the Bosnian-Croat

20 Federation, and that on that territory they can carry out all necessary

21 actions related to exhumation.

22 Q. Now, in practice, does the Republika Srpska commission and the

23 Bosniak part of the federal commission and the Croat part of the federal

24 commission, do they largely deal with the exhumations of people of the

25 same ethnicity as the commission entity?

Page 4217

1 A. The Serb commission only deals with Serb victims, that is to say,

2 where the victims were Bosnian Serbs. The state commission or, rather,

3 the Federal Commission for Tracing Missing Persons deals with all victims

4 but predominantly, predominantly those victims that belong to the ethnic

5 groups that this federation relates to.

6 Q. Since the war, how many Bosnian Muslims have been exhumed in

7 Bosnia? Approximately.

8 A. We can say that this number is about 10.500. I think that 6.500

9 were exhumed by the State Commission For Tracing Missing Persons and about

10 4.000 were exhumed by representatives of the Tribunal. I'm referring to

11 the Srebrenica victims.

12 Q. And do you know how many Bosnian Serb victims have been exhumed?

13 Approximately.

14 A. I do not have the relevant information, but according to some

15 information that I do have, this number ranges between 1.200 and 1.500.

16 Q. And Bosnian Croats?

17 A. About 500. A bit less than 500.

18 Q. During the war, what was the relationship between the three

19 commissions in terms of the exchange of prisoners? Did you have much

20 contact?

21 A. Very frequent contact. Sometimes this was once a week, on neutral

22 territory, that is to say, territory that was under the control of UN

23 forces known as UNPROFOR or perhaps at the lines of conflict or, rather,

24 the separation lines between the military forces. That is where these

25 contacts took place, and they were very frequent, as I said, or at any

Page 4218

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Page 4219

1 rate, far more frequent than any other contacts that took place between

2 the then warring parties.

3 Q. And during the war, did you represent the Bosnian state

4 commission?

5 A. Yes. I was its vice-chairman. But in fact, I was the person who

6 was engaged in fieldwork the most.

7 Q. And when prisoners exchanges were organised, who would you deal

8 with from the Serb commission or the Croat commission in terms of the

9 hierarchy? Would you deal with the head of those commissions or would you

10 deal with the people with the custody of the prisoners?

11 A. Exclusively with persons who were authorised by the other side to

12 act on behalf of their commissions that had different names. The Serb

13 commission was called the Central Commission and the Croat commission was

14 called the Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War, only their

15 commissions, that is.

16 Q. So you didn't deal with the people that physically captured the

17 detainees in a direct sense?

18 A. No. We did not have access at all to detention facilities, that

19 is to say, to camps or prisons.

20 Q. And during the war, was there a headquarters for the state

21 commission?

22 A. Throughout the war, the headquarters of the state commission was

23 in Sarajevo.

24 Q. And were there any local or regional offices that formed part of

25 that state commission?

Page 4220

1 A. Yes. For example, during the second half of the war, that is to

2 say, from 1993 all the way until the end of the war, there were separate

3 departments of the state commission that were established in various towns

4 that were under government forces control. Gorazde, Tuzla, Bihac, Mostar,

5 Travnik.

6 Q. And what was the staff size of the state commission, say, in 1992

7 when you started in August? How many staff were there?

8 A. I think in that period, between 12 and 15 people were employed in

9 the state commission.

10 Q. And in 1992, when you started, were they based in the Sarajevo

11 office or were some of them based somewhere else?

12 A. At that time, at the headquarters of the commission in Sarajevo,

13 there were about seven persons employed, I think, and some were in the

14 field, that is to say, in the towns that I mentioned and also Trnovo,

15 for instance, then also Ilidza, Hadzici, Konjic, and I think a few other

16 towns.

17 Q. And is the staff size of the state commission or the Bosniak part

18 of the federal commission for the tracing of missing persons basically the

19 same as when it started now as when it started in 1992?

20 A. Nowadays, we have 15 employees, persons who are full-time

21 employees there, and we have volunteer, that is to say, a person who

22 cooperates with the commission but that is not formally employed as a

23 full-time employee of the commission.

24 Q. And currently of the 15 employees, about how many are based in the

25 Sarajevo office?

Page 4221

1 A. Seven, including myself.

2 Q. And have you always been based at the headquarters office in

3 Sarajevo?

4 A. From August 1992 until the present day.

5 Q. And does the office keep records of people exhumed and people that

6 are missing, recorded as missing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. During the war, what type of records were kept, just generally, in

9 relation to prisoners of war, missing people?

10 A. Practically our first sources or, rather, if we're talking about

11 records, I already said during my introductory remarks that we have

12 recorded prisoners of war, persons who were deprived of their liberty in

13 relation to the armed conflict and also persons who were wounded or killed

14 during a certain period of time and, finally, persons who went missing.

15 During the war, records related to the killed and wounded were taken over

16 by other authorities such as the Ministry of Health, whereas we continued

17 to record prisoners of war, persons deprived of their liberty and also

18 persons who went missing during the war conflict. And finally, in the

19 period after the general peace agreement was signed in Dayton, we have

20 been keeping records related to exhumed persons since exhumations were

21 made possible, conditionally speaking, on enemy territory only after the

22 Dayton Accords were signed.

23 During the war, we did not have access to localities where

24 civilians or soldiers were killed within the territory that was under

25 enemy control.

Page 4222

1 Q. And in this post-war period, you still keep records of missing

2 people?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are these records centralised in the headquarters office or had

5 they spread throughout the regional offices as well?

6 A. Records were centralised; that is to say, all information comes to

7 our headquarters in Sarajevo. And records are also kept on missing

8 persons in certain regions but persons who gravitate towards that

9 particular region. For example, our office in Tuzla, to the north of

10 Sarajevo, keeps records of persons who went missing on the territory of

11 Republika Srpska, which does gravitate towards Tuzla. For example,

12 Srebrenica, Zvornik, Vlasenica, Bijeljina, and some other towns also. In

13 some of our other offices, records are kept that are of a local nature.

14 However, all information, all data do ultimately reach the headquarters in

15 Sarajevo.

16 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, that might be a good time to break.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Before we go though, I don't know whether we are

18 required to read all of these Sarajevo court files, et cetera, but they

19 are all in B/C/S and there is no, except in relation to documents 8 and 9,

20 there are no translations here.

21 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, at this stage we don't propose to tender

22 these records. They may become relevant subject to opposing counsel's

23 view of the records, and there is summary translations, but think stage we

24 propose not to tender them.

25 JUDGE HUNT: As long as you realise that we haven't been given the

Page 4223

1 wrong file. It has happened.

2 We'll adjourn now until 2.30.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 4224

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith.

3 MR. SMITH: Mr. Masovic, before the break you talked about how

4 records in relation to prisoners of war and missing persons were

5 centralised into the headquarters office in Sarajevo during the war. You

6 also said that regional offices were set up on a permanent basis in 1993

7 and that in 1992, you believe that some of the staff from the state

8 commission were actually working in the field in some places such as

9 Trnovo.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. During that 1992 period, from when the war broke out in Bosnia,

12 say, from April 1992, to the end, were you receiving information from

13 these staff members in the field in relation to prisoners of war and

14 missing persons?

15 A. Yes. We had a continuous flow of such data practically from the

16 beginning of the war, from April 1992, from the entire Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina, including that department, the regional, the Municipal

18 Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War in Trnovo.

19 Q. Were these regional commissions, were they obliged to provide

20 the information to the Sarajevo office as a matter of course, as a matter

21 of duty?

22 A. Yes, it was. They were duty-bound not only to keep their own

23 records but also to forward to the central headquarters in Sarajevo all

24 data related to the exchange of prisoners of war and any bodies revealed.

25 Q. And in relation to the records kept regarding exhumations and

Page 4225

1 missing persons, have you recently been asked by the Office of the

2 Prosecutor to summarise those records from the source material that you

3 have at your office in Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you have those summarised documents with you today?

6 A. Yes, I do.

7 Q. In relation to exhumations, can you tell the Court what type of

8 records you kept?

9 A. I should mention that exhumations are primarily related to the

10 status of missing persons. In my introductory remarks, I said that

11 regrettably today, eight years after the beginning of the war, almost all

12 missing persons or even all missing persons are actually dead. They were

13 killed during the war in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and further

14 afield, in the territory of Yugoslavia, so that actually, data related to

15 exhumations has been collected since 1992. Already since 1992 we recorded

16 the first missing persons, the first murders of civilians and soldiers,

17 and in the post-war period, after the Banja Luka agreement of 1996 on

18 interentity exhumations, we started exhumations in the territories held

19 during the war by Bosnian Serbs or Bosnian Croats, and we commenced with

20 exhumations of individual and mass graves in which we are beginning to

21 uncover the bodies of persons which are registered as missing in our

22 records.

23 Q. So in relation to your records, what type of records do you keep?

24 For example, do you keep court files or police files or any other type of

25 record of exhumations? What range of records do you keep?

Page 4226

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Page 4227

1 A. Well, we have a computer database which contains some basic

2 details of a missing person or if the person's body is exhumated, data

3 about the exhumation, and that means their name and surname of the missing

4 or exhumed person, the father's name, year of birth, place of birth,

5 place of residence, the date and place where the person was last seen, and

6 if the person has been registered by the ICRC, then you would also find in

7 our database the so-called BAS number, the code name under which that

8 person is registered in the records of the ICRC and some additional

9 remark related to events subsequent to the report when the person was

10 reported as missing, and if the body was exhumed, then we also have

11 information on the exhumations. In addition to this data, our database

12 also contains written reports we received during the war and after the war

13 from our commissions or commission departments but also from other

14 authorities, local authorities, the police, intelligence, agencies, War

15 Presidencies, municipalities, the International Red Cross, and some other

16 sources.

17 Q. Do you also keep some of the court files in relation to

18 exhumations conducted?

19 A. Once a year, after the exhumations for that year are finalised,

20 the so-called annual report is made available to the commission, the

21 annual report on exhumations.

22 Q. When Bosnian Muslim civilians are exhumed, does someone from

23 the commission attend at the exhumation site?

24 A. Always, without exception. Members of the state commission always

25 attend exhumations, either from the central commission in Sarajevo or from

Page 4228

1 a department in Gorazde, Tuzla, Zenica, Travnik, and so on.

2 Q. Is there any requirement for the staff member that attends the

3 exhumation site to make some interim in-house report as to what happened

4 and the results of the exhumation?

5 A. Yes. In that report, the staff member would typically indicate

6 the name of the locality where the exhumation was conducted, including the

7 microlocation, the coordinates of that locality, the type of grave such as

8 an individual grave or a grave containing five bodies or a mass grave,

9 which means five or more corpses, and if identification has been made, the

10 report also indicates the presumed identity. Identification is finalised

11 by the cantonal court, but we always indicate the presumed identity, to be

12 confirmed by subsequent procedure.

13 Q. Does the Bosnian government expect you to keep records of the

14 work that you do in relation to missing persons and exhumations?

15 A. Yes. It is our obligation to keep those records and to report to

16 the government once a year on the results of the exhumations and our

17 search for missing persons.

18 Q. Now, in relation to the exhumations that have been conducted in

19 the Foca municipality, I would like to show you a document. It's a map.

20 It's numbered 240/1, Prosecution identification number.

21 MR. SMITH: If I can ask the usher to place it on the ELMO.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Whilst that is being done, Mr. Smith, are we going to

23 hear anything about the subsequent procedures to confirm the presumed

24 identity?

25 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 4229

1 Q. Mr. Masovic, if you look at that document marked 240/1, which is

2 placed next to you on the overhead projector, do you recognise it?

3 A. Yes. This is a map of prewar borders of the Foca municipality,

4 indicating localities where exhumations have been conducted. They are

5 grouped in about ten different localities which are actually local

6 communes. Sometimes it's one local commune, sometimes more than one. We

7 see here indicated the number of localities and the number of victims

8 exhumed in these localities.

9 Q. Now, was this map prepared by the staff in your office?

10 A. Yes. It was prepared by the staff of the state commission,

11 headquarters in Sarajevo.

12 MR. SMITH: Perhaps if the map can be left on the overhead

13 projector.

14 Q. Now I'd ask you to look at the next document, a document also

15 marked 240/1, which is an index which relates to the map. Do you

16 recognise that document?

17 A. Yes, I recognise this document.

18 Q. Can you just briefly explain how the document relates to the map?

19 A. This document indicates ten different groups of sites where

20 exhumations of victims from the municipality of Foca were conducted from

21 1996 to the year 2000. I have already said that it contains the ordinal

22 number of the locality, then the name of the village or town where

23 exhumation was conducted, microlocation, if any, the number of bodies

24 uncovered, and the number of identified and unidentified bodies. This

25 division is based according to the local communes to which the victims

Page 4230

1 belonged to.

2 Q. Did you have this index prepared under your direction?

3 A. Yes, yes. We compiled this index in the form in which you see it

4 today.

5 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry to be harping on this, Mr. Smith, but does

6 the word "identified" there mean finally or provisionally or presumably?

7 MR. SMITH: Finally identified, Your Honour. There's another

8 list, which is 240/3, which relates to the identifications of 375 of the

9 430 bodies. I think he will explain about how those people were

10 identified.

11 JUDGE HUNT: I only wanted to know whether it was the provisional

12 identification or, I'm sorry, the presumed identity, a phrase which

13 worried me a little bit.

14 MR. SMITH: Perhaps I'll clarify with the witness, but it's final

15 identity, as far as I'm aware.

16 Q. Mr. Masovic, if you now look at document marked 240/3, do you

17 recognise that document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What does that document show?

20 A. This is a list of victims identified in the territory of the Foca

21 municipality, victims exhumed and identified. This list contains the

22 names of 375 identified victims which were exhumed between 1996 and 2000

23 in the territory of the municipality of Foca.

24 Q. And if I can briefly ask you, how were those people identified,

25 those 375? What process was undertaken to identify these people?

Page 4231

1 A. The victims were identified -- are identified by a special

2 commission headed by a judge of the cantonal court and which includes the

3 prosecutor and forensics of the police and also a forensic medical expert

4 and his assistant. In this case, identification was done based on

5 recognition by family members who came to the morgue or the prosecutor's

6 office; and there, based on personal items found on the body, clothing,

7 footwear, or certain characteristics such as fractures sustained before

8 the conflict, identification was made on that basis.

9 What we have here in this document is a relatively high percentage

10 of identification of female persons. On the average, there are 12 per

11 cent of women among the identified victims. Here this percentage is

12 higher. It's 40 per cent, which means 145 victims of female sex.

13 Q. Thank you. So the identifications made in relation to these 375

14 are confirmed identifications, not presumed?

15 A. This, what we have here is a definitively -- is definitive

16 identification, certified by an authorised forensic medical expert or

17 coroner.

18 MR. SMITH: We've finished with the documents for the moment.

19 Q. And the types of source material that were used to compile these

20 documents, are they the same materials that you referred to earlier, such

21 as --

22 A. Yes, that's true.

23 Q. Who provided the source material for these documents, for these

24 summary documents?

25 A. The background material originates from the state commission, and

Page 4232

1 our sources are court reports, police reports that we receive, and also

2 reports by forensic medical experts.

3 Q. And reports from your staff who have attended at these

4 exhumations?

5 A. Yes, of course. Those are our in-house reports compiled by staff

6 members of the state commission who attend exhumations, autopsies, and

7 identifications of victims.

8 Q. And how long after an exhumation is conducted would you start to

9 receive the material which is the source for these documents?

10 A. That depends primarily on the number of victims exhumed from a

11 particular grave. If it's a mass grave, as was the case with some graves

12 where we found more than a hundred victims, then the time lapse is a

13 bit longer. It could be up to 30 days. In other cases, when the number

14 of bodies is smaller, then our in-house reports arrive on the same day.

15 Q. Now, in relation to the Foca municipality, how many -- other than

16 documents that you receive at your office, have you been personally

17 involved in some of the exhumations in the Foca municipality?

18 A. Yes. I personally attended, as leader of the team of the state

19 commission, a number of exhumations conducted on the territory of the

20 municipality of Foca.

21 Q. And in relation to documents regarding exhumations received at

22 your office, do you view those documents as they come into your office or

23 do they go into a file and do you not see them?

24 A. All reports on completed exhumations pass through my hands, so to

25 speak, and only after I verify them are the basic elements of these

Page 4233

1 reports entered into our computer database.

2 Q. And in preparation for your testimony today, have you familiarised

3 yourself with the source material used in these summary documents?

4 A. Yes. We used written material that we had available, court

5 reports, witness statements when they were available, exhumation reports

6 and reports made by War Presidencies and local commissions.

7 Q. I'll just ask you a few questions now about the results of the

8 exhumations in the Foca municipality.

9 How many bodies have been exhumed?

10 A. In 156 different localities, which are grouped in ten groups of

11 localities, the total of victims exhumed amounts to 436 for the period

12 between 1996 and the year 2000.

13 Q. You mentioned earlier that 375 of those bodies have been

14 identified, which means that 55 are still unidentified.

15 A. Yes. Unfortunately, 55 victims have not yet been identified.

16 Q. Of the 375 that have been identified, has anyone been identified

17 as a former detainee of the KP Dom in Foca?

18 A. Yes. In two cases, we found that the victim had last been seen in

19 the correctional detention centre in Foca, in the KP Dom, that is.

20 Q. And the names of those two individuals?

21 A. Those are Murat Crneta and Halid Konjo.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, these two individuals are referred to in

23 Prosecution Exhibit P55/2, and at tab 13 in the folder there are excerpts

24 from the Gorazde court in relation to this exhumation. Those excerpts, in

25 fact, come from the exhibit 55/2, except the fuller translation has now

Page 4234

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Page 4235

1 been done.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

3 MR. SMITH:

4 Q. Were you present at this exhumation site of the former

5 detainees, Murat Crneta and Halid Konjo?

6 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, Mr. Smith, to interrupt, but where is tab 13?

7 MR. SMITH: In part B of the folder, Your Honour. It's the last

8 tab.

9 JUDGE HUNT: We're not fortunate enough to have numbers, but it's

10 55/2.

11 MR. SMITH: /2, but it has been copied, recopied, and placed in the

12 folder before you.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.

14 MR. SMITH:

15 Q. Can you indicate on the map in front of you the location to where

16 these bodies where exhumed, Halid Konjo's and Murat Crneta's, with the

17 pointer?

18 A. Yes, I can show the exact locality where we exhumed these two

19 former detainees of the KP Dom in Foca.

20 Q. And you're pointing at the village of Previla; is that correct?

21 A. The village of Previla, north of Foca town.

22 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, that's in group 2 on the map.

23 Q. Were these two men located with any other bodies?

24 A. Yes. Actually, this was a mass grave where seven victims were

25 found.

Page 4236

1 Q. And when were they exhumed?

2 A. I think this was the month of November 1997.

3 Q. And what information did you and the authorities have to lead you

4 to this site to discover these bodies?

5 A. One of the local Bosnian Serbs was in contact with the Gorazde

6 police, and he discovered a group of 12 detainees moving in the vicinity

7 of his house. They had been escorted. Immediately after that, he heard

8 some shooting.

9 Q. Did this person say when, when this occurred, what year or what

10 date?

11 A. Possibly the police in Gorazde was told about this, but I'm not

12 aware of that.

13 Q. Can you describe the exhumation site when you arrived there and

14 the state of the bodies?

15 A. Yes. A forest path moves -- goes to Previla, and about 50 metres

16 off that path there is a brook which dries up very often, and only in the

17 spring and in the late autumn is there water in this brook. So in that

18 area that is roughly three metres wide and ten metres long, so this is

19 about 30 square metres altogether, that is where we located the incomplete

20 remains of the skeletons of a total of seven victims. It was the court

21 from Gorazde that was involved, with the assistance of forensic experts

22 from Foca and with the assistance of Mrs. Simmons, a forensics expert from

23 the United States. The skeletons were not complete because the water had

24 washed away some of the smaller bones belonging to these skeletons. Some

25 of the bones had been scattered about. It's probably animals that took

Page 4237

1 them away, because five years had elapsed since the liquidation of these

2 victims.

3 Q. Could you conclude from the scene how they died?

4 A. I think, in view of the statement made by this witness and in view

5 of the forensic expertise, forensic expertise established that they were

6 executed by a firing squad.

7 Q. Were bullets found at the scene?

8 A. I cannot recall right now whether there were any bullets at this

9 locality. I think that this exists in the police report that was drafted

10 by the Gorazde police, since it is policemen who take care of that part of

11 such exercises.

12 Q. Were these bodies buried or found on the surface?

13 A. It was obvious there on the spot that these bodies had not been

14 buried, that the liquidation had occurred at the same spot, that is to

15 say, in the bed of that brook, and that the bodies remained in the bed

16 of that brook that had dried up.

17 I come to this conclusion because parts of the skeletons were

18 found in the sand and mud. Also, there were pebbles that covered parts of

19 the skeletons, and it is probably towards the water that came subsequently

20 that brought all these pebbles over the course of these five years.

21 Q. And who identified Murat Crneta and Halid Konjo?

22 A. Halid Konjo was identified by his wife. Murat Crneta was

23 identified by his father-in-law, that is to say, his wife's father.

24 Q. And both of those men were Bosnian Muslim; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, both are Bosnian Muslims.

Page 4238

1 Q. And from the Gorazde cantonal court report, the exhumation report,

2 can it be seen that an identification card from a Sulejman Celik was found

3 at the exhumation site?

4 A. Sulejman Celik, his identification card was found deep down in the

5 mud, as far as I can recall, at a depth at 20 or 30 centimetres in the

6 mud. As we were searching the mud, we found some smaller bones, like

7 finger bones and toe bones. That's when we found this card. I remember

8 the card very well. It was a membership card of the trade unions of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the name on the card was Sulejman Celik.

10 Q. And is he recorded as missing, with your state commission?

11 A. Yes, he is recorded with the state commission as one of the

12 persons who are missing.

13 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, these three individuals who have been

14 identified, at least the card of one of them, and the other two, evidence

15 has been presented in this case that they were all taken out for this

16 plum-picking incident in September 1992.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Did they need their trade union card for that job?

18 Is seems a strange thing for them to have kept while they were in custody,

19 that's all.

20 MR. SMITH:

21 Q. Of the 375 identified bodies, you mentioned that there was a high

22 number of females. About how many of them were females? What was the

23 number?

24 A. Yes. Thirty-nine per cent. I said a few minutes ago that this is

25 indeed a high percentage as compared to the average percentage of women

Page 4239

1 that we have exhumed so far, and we have exhumed over 6.500 victims. The

2 average percentage of women exhumed was 12 per cent. However, in the

3 territory of the municipality of Foca, we managed to exhume 39 per cent,

4 to be precise.

5 Q. What is the ethnicity of the 375 that were exhumed?

6 A. Out of the 375 victims, 374 are Bosnian Muslims and one woman is

7 Montenegrin by origin, and she was married to a Bosnian Muslim.

8 Q. What is her name?

9 A. Srnja, nee Micunovic, Jelena.

10 MR. SMITH: She appears, Your Honour, at 309 on document 240/3

11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

12 MR. SMITH:

13 Q. Of the 55 unidentified bodies, do the circumstances indicate

14 what ethnicity those people were?

15 A. Yes. It can be assumed beyond any reasonable doubt that these are

16 Bosnian Muslims.

17 Q. And how can you assume that?

18 A. The victims were located and exhumed in the villages where Bosnian

19 Muslims lived in the territory of the municipality of Foca. Judging by

20 their clothes, especially women's clothes, it is obvious that this was the

21 Bosnian Muslim national costume, and also witnesses who survived these

22 executions lead to the conclusion that these are Bosniaks or, rather,

23 Bosnian Muslims.

24 Q. You have recorded in your document that 24 bodies were exhumed

25 from a location in Ratine. This is on page 3, line 9, and it's exhumation

Page 4240

1 site 107. It's on 340/1. It's page 3 of your index.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Line 9, and the site is 107.

4 A. Yes, the locality of Ratine.

5 Q. It's recorded there that 24 people were exhumed or bodies were

6 exhumed, but no one was identified. Did you attend that exhumation site?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you point out the site on the map, please?

9 A. [Indicates]

10 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates Ratine in group 6 on the map.

11 Q. What information did you have or the authorities have to lead you

12 to this location at Ratine where the 24 bodies were found?

13 A. In this case, it was a mass execution that was survived by one of

14 those persons who were shot at by automatic weapons. After the war, he

15 took one of my officials from the state commission to that particular site

16 and told him about that site where the execution took place. It was

17 detainees who were in question.

18 Q. These detainees, where were they from? Where did he say they

19 were from?

20 A. I'm not sure whether I can be very precise, but I think these were

21 detainees from Kalinovik. They were driven to this locality on two buses

22 or two trucks, and then one of these trucks or buses was stopped.

23 Twenty-five detainees were taken out, including the witness, and that's

24 where the witness saw the execution of these detainees. The other truck

25 continued its journey, and we haven't been able to locate those victims

Page 4241

1 yet.

2 Q. Did he say whether the victims were Serb or Muslim or Croat?

3 A. The witness is exactly aware of the identity of all 24 victims,

4 and he dictated this list of victims containing their names.

5 Q. What ethnicity were they?

6 A. All were Bosnian Muslims, and the witness had known them from

7 before.

8 Q. When did he say that they were killed?

9 A. I am not aware of that, but my official who was on the ground may

10 know of that particular detail too. I can only say that the year was

11 1992, but I do not know a more specific date.

12 Q. Briefly, can you say what you saw when you arrived at the

13 site?

14 A. Fifty or 60 metres below the road where we parked our vehicles, we

15 came across the remains of a barn. Actually, these were only the

16 foundations of a barn. The foundations were made of stone, natural

17 stone. Within that barn there were about 20 or 30 metal sheets that were

18 made of barrels. These sheets are made when a barrel is cut up and

19 flattened. That's what the barn had been made of, apparently.

20 When we came, we saw that there was grass and bushes growing all

21 over.

22 Q. Of the 430 bodies that were exhumed in the Foca municipality,

23 can you say, from your records, where their former residences were? Did

24 they live in Foca or did they live somewhere else?

25 A. All of them or almost all of them lived in the territory of the

Page 4242

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Page 4243

1 municipality of Foca in 1991. We checked this against the census that was

2 carried out in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991. Also on the basis of the

3 family members who identified them told us and on the basis of the census,

4 I can say that all of them or a vast majority of them were inhabitants

5 of Foca in 1991.

6 Q. On the basis of the exhumation records, are you able to say

7 where -- are there any conclusions that you can draw in relation to where

8 the bodies were exhumed with regards to their homes, their residences?

9 A. I did not understand your question, actually.

10 Q. Are you able to conclude, from the information that you've got,

11 how far away the residences were of the bodies that were exhumed? How far

12 away were their homes?

13 A. There is no one there. This is a forest path where wood is taken

14 out of the forest, and I'm sure that these persons were obviously far away

15 from their homes, although they are from the municipality of Foca.

16 Q. I'm now talking about the vast majority of the people that were

17 exhumed in Foca. Can you draw any conclusions as to whether they were

18 exhumed near their homes or far away from them?

19 A. All the exhumed were in the municipality of Foca, and most of them

20 were exhumed where they had lived, some of them even in their homes or in

21 front of their homes, within their own land. We inferred that these

22 persons had actually stayed at home on their land, not fearing that they

23 would be killed. However, nowadays we can regrettably say they made a

24 mistake. So most of them were found in villages, hamlets, at their homes,

25 in front of their homes, in their barns, and on their own land, primarily

Page 4244

1 in those parts of the municipalities of Foca where the population is

2 predominantly Bosnian Muslim.

3 Q. From the information you have from your records, is there a

4 common time when these people were in fact killed or died?

5 A. Yes. It can be stated with certainty that most of them were

6 killed in the period between April and the end of September 1992.

7 Q. What was the most common cause of death?

8 A. The most common cause of death are multiple gunshot exit/entry

9 wounds.

10 Q. From your knowledge of the records, about what percentage of the

11 people were executed?

12 A. It is hard to give precise information. However, speaking in

13 terms of percentage, I think that over 90 per cent of the victims involved

14 were executed in mass executions.

15 Q. Approximately how did the other 10 per cent die, from the

16 records?

17 A. I can give you precise figures about the entirety of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not Foca only. There were different forms of

19 liquidation that were established by forensics experts. Automatic

20 weapons, executions by automatic weapons, and then also shooting people

21 into their head directly or neck. We also found cases where persons'

22 throats were slit.

23 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Masovic. If you can confine your answer to the

24 Foca municipality and the other 10 per cent that you say, from the records

25 weren't executed, do you know the cause of their deaths?

Page 4245

1 A. In all cases, practically all cases, with the exception of a very

2 few where we established natural causes of death, where forensics experts

3 established natural causes of death, death was -- so in all cases, death

4 was a result of gunfire.

5 Q. And you've also recorded in your index at 240/1 that nine people

6 were exhumed from a site called Mazoce. This is on page 5, line 10.

7 Also, at line 11, another two people were killed at the village of

8 Mazoce. Did you attend this execution site?

9 A. Yes, at the locality of Ratine, number 121, where nine victims

10 were exhumed, I was present there; and I was also present at yet another

11 location where two victims were exhumed. This is also the area of Mazoce.

12 I'm sorry, locations 91 and 92, those are the numbers that we gave in the

13 state commission. Mazoce 1, nine victims; Mazoce 2, two victims; and I

14 was present there.

15 Q. And what did you see at this particular site where the nine

16 victims were found? Just briefly.

17 A. The locality Mazoce 1, nine victims buried in a mass grave in an

18 orchard. After the autopsy, it was determined that all of them were

19 executed by gunfire, and after identification, it was established that

20 these were the members of a family whose last name was Rikalo at the

21 location of Mazoce, the first one, Mazoce 1.

22 As far as I can remember, two of the victims were women at the

23 location of Mazoce 2. They were exhumed underneath a tree. I think it

24 was a plum tree. These were two men [as interpreted] who had been buried

25 together and covered with a metal sheet, or, rather, the remains of an

Page 4246

1 automobile.

2 Q. And what was the ethnicity of these people who were exhumed?

3 A. All were identified and all are Bosnian Muslims.

4 Q. And did they come from that village of Mazoce?

5 A. Yes, prewar inhabitants of the village of Mazoce who had stayed

6 at their homes.

7 Q. And can you indicate the village of Mazoce on the map?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 MR. SMITH: The witness indicates Mazoce in group 10 on 240/1.

10 Q. About how many houses were in the village of Mazoce?

11 A. It is hard to say. We found houses that were partly burned,

12 partly torched; some were intact. But I would not say that there were

13 over 25 or 30 houses at the location where we were, that is to say, near

14 that orchard.

15 Q. And when you arrived at Mazoce, did you meet a resident from

16 there, from that village?

17 A. We were actually accompanied by the family members of these

18 persons who we were looking for, who we managed to exhume and identify.

19 Nowadays they do not live in Mazoce, but they live in other places of the

20 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, they accompanied us on that day.

21 Q. And did they draw any conclusion as to houses that -- the reason

22 why certain houses were torched or burnt, partly torched or burnt, and

23 why others were left untouched?

24 A. The daughter of one of the victims drew my attention to the fact

25 that the houses of all of those or most of those persons who were killed

Page 4247

1 and who we exhumed on that occasion were intact, that their houses were

2 not burned, that they were actually intact; whereas the houses of all of

3 those who in 1992, under assaults of the Serb army, managed to flee to

4 free territory or to Montenegro, that their houses were razed to the

5 ground, that their houses had actually been burned.

6 Q. Now, apart from the woman that was exhumed, the Serb woman that

7 was the wife to a Muslim male, apart from her being exhumed in this 375,

8 you said that the rest that were exhumed were Muslim.

9 A. [No translation]

10 MR. SMITH: There was no translation there, Your Honour.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. There was

12 something wrong with my microphone. Apparently it wasn't on. I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Do you recall, or would you like to have the answer

14 again?

15 THE INTERPRETER: No, I would like to have the answer again.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you to start again, Mr. Smith.

17 MR. SMITH:

18 Q. Mr. Masovic, apart from the woman of Serb ethnicity in the 375

19 identified people exhumed from Foca, the rest that were exhumed were of

20 Muslim ethnicity?

21 A. Yes. Three hundred seventy-four were Bosnian Muslims, and it is

22 beyond any reasonable doubt that I can confirm that the remaining 55

23 belonged to the Bosnian Muslim population, those who have not been

24 identified until now.

25 Q. Other than this woman --

Page 4248

1 JUDGE HUNT: I know that the witness says beyond reasonable doubt,

2 but should we know the basis upon which he comes to that conclusion?

3 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. He is a lawyer by trade, and --

4 JUDGE HUNT: I understand that, and he would understand what the

5 word means, but we have to make up our own minds. I don't want him to go

6 into a great deal of detail, but there must be some explanation he can

7 give us shortly.

8 MR. SMITH: He has given an explanation previously, but if I can

9 just get him to summarise it.

10 JUDGE HUNT: The last time it was the clothing that they wore in

11 the villages in which they had resided and that sort of thing; and if it's

12 the same, he can say it's the same.

13 MR. SMITH:

14 Q. Why can you say in your mind beyond a reasonable doubt that these

15 55 are of Muslim ethnicity, these other 55 bodies? What's your basis for

16 that? If it's nothing more than what you said before, then just say that.

17 A. If I remember correctly, I said earlier, and I can confirm it

18 again, the witnesses who brought us to the site of liquidation, the place

19 where we find those identified bodies, claimed that the victims were

20 Bosnian Muslims. The same can be concluded based on their clothing and on

21 the basis of the fact that they originate from villages populated by

22 Bosnian Muslims.

23 That is my conclusion, and in my mind, it is beyond any reasonable

24 doubt that they are Bosnian Muslims.

25 JUDGE HUNT: I don't mean to challenge that, sir, but you can be,

Page 4249

1 I think, of a little bit more assistance to us. Did the persons who

2 identified them as Bosnian Muslims claim to be able to identify them as

3 people they had known?

4 A. In certain cases, yes. But in the process of identification,

5 family members who attended the identification were not able to confirm

6 with certainty that those were actually their family members, because part

7 of the corpses were incinerated, other parts had no characteristic

8 features to enable identification. So in certain cases, such as the case

9 of the barn in Ratine containing 24 corpses, we know precisely and for

10 sure who the persons were. But since the bodies were incinerated after

11 executions, all we have are the remains of their skeletons. Now,

12 forensics were not able to state with certainty which part of which

13 skeleton belongs to which victim. So these 24 victims remain recorded as

14 unidentified, but we know for a fact that they were Bosnian Muslims

15 because one person who is a survivor of the same incident confirms it.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, you did tell us that before. And to some

17 extent, I suppose, you have had to rely upon the fact that if there were a

18 large number of persons identified in this way as being Bosnian Muslims,

19 the fact that the others were with them, you have assumed that they were

20 also Bosnian Muslims; is that so?

21 A. I would say it's more than an assumption.

22 JUDGE HUNT: What would you say it was, then?

23 A. We can assume, based on all the relevant data at our disposal,

24 that these are Bosnian Muslims.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Smith, I'll leave it to you. That's still

Page 4250

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Page 4251

1 an assumption, to my mind, and I think the witness used the word. I'm

2 thinking of evidence I've heard in other cases, that's all, and the way in

3 which it's been proven, and that was one of the issues that was taken into

4 account.

5 MR. SMITH: I think he's probably said as much as he can on the

6 topic, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.

8 MR. SMITH:

9 Q. Other than the woman of Serb ethnicity, are you aware of any

10 non-Muslims being exhumed in the Foca municipality; yes or no?

11 A. No.

12 Q. I'd now like to talk about the records that you keep in relation

13 to missing persons. What type of records do you keep to record that

14 someone is missing, with your office?

15 A. There is a computer database, first of all, compiled based on

16 elements derived from oral reports or from reports made by family members

17 or from other sources such as records made by the ICRC or lists which we

18 received throughout the war and after the war from local authorities on

19 the ground.

20 Q. Do you have records from the police or military in relation to

21 missing persons as well?

22 A. In one part of written material, which means court, police, and

23 other reports available to the prosecutor's office, are intelligence and

24 military reports.

25 Q. And do you have witness statements as well as part of your record

Page 4252

1 in relation to missing persons?

2 A. Yes, witness statements or statements by family members who in

3 certain cases happen also to be witnesses of incidents in which a person

4 went missing.

5 Q. And you said earlier that your organisation has a duty to keep

6 records in relation to exhumations. Do you also have a similar duty to

7 keep full records in relation to missing persons reported?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what use is made -- is there any use made of the records that

10 you keep at your office for anything other than court purposes? Does the

11 government use your records for any particular reason? Do they rely on

12 your records, or do any other organisations rely on your records in

13 relation to missing persons, for their own use?

14 A. Well, for the most part, these records are of service to the

15 families of the missing persons, because after a filing a report that a

16 person is missing, they receive from us a certificate to the effect that a

17 member of their family went missing. And based on that certificate, local

18 authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina grant them certain benefits for

19 surviving family members. And based on the same records, certain

20 international organisations which deal in migration or immigration into

21 western countries grant preferential treatment to certain categories of

22 the Bosnian population, and I mean primarily surviving family members.

23 Q. And do any other organisations use your records for any other

24 purposes, or any purposes, like Red Cross, for example, or ...

25 A. At the request of local cantonal courts and prosecutors' offices,

Page 4253

1 we make available our own data on missing persons to be used in trials on

2 war crimes before international courts and Tribunals, and we also reply to

3 requests filed by individual families through the International Red

4 Cross.

5 Q. If I can ask you to look at document number 240/4. Do you

6 recognise that document?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what does the document show?

9 A. This document is a list of currently recorded missing persons,

10 that is, missing persons currently on record from the Foca municipality.

11 Q. Was this list prepared under your instruction at the state

12 commission?

13 A. Yes, based on my instructions and based on our records and data on

14 such persons.

15 Q. And if you can look at a document marked 240/5. Do you recognise

16 that document?

17 A. Yes. My office drafted this document too.

18 Q. And what does that document show?

19 A. This is one part of persons recorded as missing in Foca

20 municipality, persons last seen in the KP Dom of Foca. Their number is

21 265.

22 Q. If you look at the last page of the document, the number appears

23 to be 266.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You said in your previous answer that the number is 265. Is that

Page 4254

1 correct or is it 266?

2 A. I think I said 266. It may be the interpretation.

3 Q. Okay. Well, it's clear now. Thank you.

4 In order to produce this document, how many sources were used for

5 each individual person to come at this conclusion that they were at KP Dom

6 and they are recorded as still missing? How many sources did you use to

7 support each entry in this document?

8 A. We used at least two sources, and in certain cases we used as many

9 as four independent sources.

10 Q. Were there any people from your records that are not included in

11 this document that you have recorded as missing from KP Dom -- sorry, you

12 have recorded as being at KP Dom and still missing in addition to these

13 266?

14 A. On our records, I believe there are at least 35 persons recorded

15 as last seen in the KP Dom in Foca. However, from two -- at least two

16 independent sources, we could confirm that they went missing in the KP Dom

17 of Foca. So this list of 266 names do not include these 35 persons,

18 although they were last seen in the Foca KP Dom.

19 Q. Now, in relation to the 730 from the Foca municipality in total

20 that you have recorded as missing, when did the majority of these people

21 go missing or were reported to you as having gone missing? From what

22 year?

23 A. Reports have been filed continuously from the outbreak of the

24 conflict, and beginning with 1993, we have complete records of persons who

25 went missing on the territory of Foca municipality.

Page 4255

1 Q. Is there a common time period where the majority of these people

2 have gone missing?

3 A. From the first half of April until end September 1992, a small

4 number of them, I think less than 20, went missing in the year 1993.

5 Q. How long in relation to the 730 people who are missing, how long

6 after they have gone? How long after you have known that they went

7 missing would the report have been made?

8 A. Well, the situation varies. Sometimes on the same day, when a

9 person was taken away, he is recorded as missing as of the day he was

10 taken away from his home, and on average, I believe the time period is 15

11 or 30 days between the time when the person went missing and the time of

12 filing of the reports and entry into our records.

13 Q. Were you involved personally in receiving these reports as to

14 missing persons?

15 A. All reports go through my hands before the basic elements of the

16 reports are entered into our computer database. But in some cases where

17 witnesses appeared who could testify on a larger number of missing persons

18 who went missing in one and the same day, I questioned those witnesses.

19 In other cases where less complicated testimonies were involved, my

20 assistants handled it.

21 Q. Say in the 1992 period, throughout the war, how many staff members

22 did you have receiving reports of missing persons?

23 A. Six members in the central commission in Sarajevo, and I believe

24 between eight and ten staff members who were on missions at various

25 localities controlled by various forces.

Page 4256

1 Q. You mentioned earlier that reports were made orally and in

2 writing. Who would generally make the oral reports as to a missing

3 person?

4 A. We can call this a report, but oral reports of disappearance were

5 usually made by family members or witnesses of incidents that preceded the

6 disappearance of the person, whereas written reports were made by

7 prosecution authorities, military police authorities, various commissions

8 for exchanges of prisoners of war, War Presidencies, municipalities in

9 wartime and perhaps some other state authorities.

10 Q. The family members that made reports of missing persons, did

11 they come to your office in person or was it made over the phone? Was

12 there a predominance of what one type of reporting or another?

13 A. That depended on where the disappearance occurred. If a person

14 went missing on the territory where family members or witnesses had access

15 to our headquarters in Sarajevo, then that would occur in our headquarters

16 in Sarajevo. But if a person went missing elsewhere, in different

17 territories, then oral reports would be forwarded to our regional

18 departments in towns which I enumerated before, Mostar, Tuzla, Travnik,

19 Zenica, Hadzici, Ilidza.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is speaking too fast.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get the heart of the answer? Yes.

22 Sir, the interpreters have complained that you are speaking a

23 little quickly. Could you slow down when you're giving your answers,

24 please.

25 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, I have about 45 minutes left of his

Page 4257

1 testimony, but my colleague has a couple of applications to make in

2 relation to witnesses following, so I wonder whether or not we could make

3 those applications now.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Certainly. Well, Mr. Masovic, we'll let you go --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt, please.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Masovic, we'll let you go now. They want to

7 raise a few matters before we adjourn. We resume at 9.30 in the morning.

8 We'll see you then.

9 [witness stood down]

10 JUDGE HUNT: Are these your applications, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. One of the matters can be discussed in

12 open session, but the other I would request a private session.

13 The first matter relates to the witness 137, who is scheduled for

14 next week videolink, and the Office of the Prosecutor has contacted this

15 witness today and the witness has consulted a doctor, and he is now able

16 to travel. He receives other medications, and because of the change of

17 the weather and because of his present condition, he's able to travel now,

18 and he is available to testify here in The Hague. I think it's more

19 preferable to have him here if he can travel.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Are you holding out that the weather here in The

21 Hague will be as good next week as it is this week?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. The problem is the witness suffers from

23 rheumatism, and except for the fact that he gets now medication, different

24 medication, the weather in the area where he lives now has now turned to

25 spring and it is warmer, and, therefore, he has recovered. His physical

Page 4258

1 condition is much better now.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if he can come, it's obviously better that he

3 does come, that's for sure. I'm sure Mr. Bakrac would not dispute that.

4 Very well. Then what do you want us to do, cancel an order for

5 the videolink?

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: In relation to this witness but not in

7 relation to the other because we have two witnesses in Sarajevo and the

8 other one cannot travel.

9 JUDGE HUNT: When do you anticipate bringing 137 along?

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Next week. He will testify in person next

11 week on the same day, actually, as he was schedule.

12 JUDGE HUNT: So the trip for our Court Deputy will not be lost.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.

14 JUDGE HUNT: Very well then. Well, do we need to actually make a

15 fresh order or just we can make an order now deleting the reference to

16 witness 137 for the -- from the order for a videolink next week. Thank

17 you.

18 Now, the other matter you want private session?

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. For the other matter I would like to

20 have private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 4260

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6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at, 4.02 p.m. to

9 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of March,

10 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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