1 Monday, 26
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Before we proceed today, the order which we made in
10 relation to FWS-137 who was to be heard by videolink included an order
11 that for technical reasons he had to be heard in a closed Court. We have
12 rescinded the order that he be heard by way of videolink, and we must now
13 also rescind the order that he be heard in a closed court. He will have
14 facial distortion and all the usual things, but it will be in open court.
15 Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you're examining the witness, thank
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, good morning, Your Honours.
18 WITNESS: FWS-249 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]
21 Q. Good morning, witness.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I don't hear the Witness.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Did you say something at this time, sir? Did you
24 respond to that answer?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: At least in his language I heard something,
2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, we've got a technical problem, then.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it's all right. It's all right, thank
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Very well, we can proceed.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
7 Q. Witness, before the break you had told us already that about 40 to
8 50 days after your arrival in the KP Dom, a first so-called exchange took
9 place, and you mentioned that you saw Pero Elez in the KP Dom.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher -- oh, he's gone.
11 With the help of my assistant, I will put a photo to you, and it's the
12 Exhibit 18, photo 7477.
13 Q. Witness, can you point out --
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It seems that the monitor is not working.
15 JUDGE HUNT: This courtroom is sent to try us, rather than the
16 accused, I'm afraid. Just turn it on, would you? See if there's a button
17 that turns it on.
18 THE USHER: It's not from here, it should be from the booth.
19 JUDGE HUNT: If somebody in the booth could turn on the ELMO,
21 [Technical difficulty]
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But I --
23 JUDGE HUNT: It's coming through on what is being broadcast
24 but it is not coming through on the ELMO. The ELMO has a sign which
25 rather misleadingly says that we are in closed session, or it may be we're
1 in recess, but it's certainly wrong.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I can proceed without the photo.
3 JUDGE HUNT: I think it might be advisable.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes.
5 JUDGE HUNT: It may be all day before we get some help here.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, yes, okay.
7 Q. Witness, where did you see Pero Elez in the compound?
8 A. Through the metal door which led to the entrance of the KP Dom.
9 That's, that's the area where I saw him before -- after that entrance.
10 Q. Did you see him in front of the metal door in the yard, or did you
11 see him standing in the door where?
12 A. Just before that door, inside the courtyard of the KP Dom.
13 Q. Was he accompanied by prison staff; do you recall?
14 A. Well, he was accompanied by some of his own soldiers and maybe
15 there was a guard in his entourage
16 Q. Did you know Pero Elez from before the war, or did you get to know
18 A. Yes, I knew him well. He comes from Budanj. He lived in Foca.
19 He used to work in the KP Dom before the war, and he was retired as a
20 member of the staff of the KP Dom.
21 Q. Did he take the detainees with him through this metal door?
22 A. Yes. I cannot remember exactly how many people were called out.
23 I can remember three persons, Kemal Niksic, Salko Sljivo, and Dzamal
24 Niksic. They were in that group, but there were other men as well.
25 Q. What was said why the detainees were taken? Did you get any
1 explanation why they had to follow Pero Elez?
2 A. Later, stories did the rounds alleging that Pero Elez was supposed
3 to take a group of people to the mine to enable the mine to start
4 operating again.
5 Q. Who said that? Detainees or guards or both?
6 A. Those prisoners could not tell those stories because they had no
7 contact with me, but sometimes stories like that would leak from the
8 guards themselves.
9 Q. Was the mine operational at that time; do you know that?
10 A. I don't know whether it was operational, but I know that it was
11 only after a while that a group from the KP Dom was sent to work in the
12 mine. I don't think the mine was operational at the start. They were
13 trying to activate the open pit of that mine in the beginning, and that
14 was approximately at the end of 1992, in the beginning of 1993.
15 Q. When you went to Miljevina to work and prepare machinery in
16 the mine, did you see any of these men, these detainees who had been taken
17 on that occasion?
18 A. No, I never saw a single person.
19 Q. Did any of them return to the KP Dom?
20 A. Nobody ever came back.
21 Q. You have mentioned these particular three persons. Did you ever
22 hear of them again from their relatives or from whatever source?
23 A. There is no trace of these persons. They were never heard of
25 Q. Did you ever observe detainees being taken for an exchange while
1 you were working in the metalwork shop?
2 A. There were exchanges, but when we would come back, for instance,
3 for this -- from this forced labour, and some people who never left their
4 rooms would tell us a group had been taken out there and there. But we
5 didn't actually know it was for an exchange, and we looked from our
6 windows at a vehicle parked just outside the KP Dom. It was a military
7 vehicle like a truck, a covered truck, and after a while this vehicle
8 would set off towards the town. Sevko Kubat and I would watch this from
9 our metal shop.
10 And after the vehicle set off, we noticed a vehicle which had been
11 parked all the time on the other bank of the Drina. That vehicle was full
12 of soldiers, and that vehicle would also be started and follow the other
13 vehicle. And after the working hours when we left the workshop, the --
14 our colleagues would tell us that it was an exchange which had taken
15 place. Of course, we didn't know the details. We didn't know where --
16 which people had been taken out and where, but there was no trace of these
17 people again. Nobody ever heard of them again.
18 Q. When did this happen that you saw the trucks? Do you recall the
19 month, maybe?
20 A. I cannot really remember well because it was a long time ago, but
21 it may have been in 1993, March, April perhaps. I cannot tell you the
22 exact date or month, but it was in 1993.
23 Q. You said that you could see, you and your colleague Sevko
24 Kubat, could see. How could you see? How could you look over the wall of
25 the -- that surrounded the metal shop?
1 A. This mechanical section of the metalwork shop, metalwork shop was
2 slightly elevated relative to the metalwork shop itself, and we could see
3 well the entrance to the KP Dom.
4 Q. Unfortunately we cannot use the ELMO now, but the part of the
5 metalwork shop where you worked, is it more to the -- is it further away
6 from the gate or is it the closest part of the metalwork shop?
7 A. That's the end of the metalwork shop, nearer to the gate. The
8 mechanical shop is the last section of the metalwork shop.
9 Q. The mechanical shop, is that where you were?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. You said that you saw trucks. The first truck, where was it
12 when you saw it and noticed it for the first time?
13 A. It was right at the entrance to the KP Dom, a covered truck. It
14 was right next to the wall.
15 Q. Did you see detainees board this truck? Could you see that from
16 your position?
17 A. No, we couldn't see because it was a covered vehicle. It had a
19 Q. Did other detainees work in the metalwork shop closer to the gate
20 so that they could see better than you?
21 A. I don't know whether they could see, but in any case, they were
22 much closer than we were in the mechanical shop.
23 Q. Were ever members of the metalwork shop taken away for exchange?
24 A. Yes. There was one time, one afternoon when we had returned from
25 the metalwork shop. We went straight to lunch, and after lunch we were
1 locked up in that working room. And after a while, a guard came, I don't
2 remember which one, but I think it was Zoran Vukovic, and he called out a
3 number of persons who were in the metalwork shop in that afternoon, and an
4 exchange took place.
5 Q. And when? Can you say when this happened? Was it in 1992 or
6 1993? Could you remember the month?
7 A. I think it was 1992. I'm not sure which month. It could have
8 been August or September, approximately. I'm not sure.
9 Q. How many members of the work group were taken away on this
11 A. I don't know exactly how many persons. I can mention Suad
12 Islambasic, Karasi, Uzeir Hadzialic. I can't remember any other men at
13 this moment, but there were more of them. Smajo Dzevdas and so on.
14 Q. Could you see who took them away? Were they soldiers, or
15 could you simply see the guards taking them out?
16 A. The person who came and called out their names was, I think, Zoran
17 Vukovic. There were two Zoran Vukovics inside the compound, actually, but
18 I mean Zoran Vukovic from Josanica, the dark-haired guard. He came and
19 called out those people.
20 Q. How did Mr. Goljanin react to this fact that some of his workers
21 were taken away for an exchange?
22 A. The next morning when we were about to taken to the metalwork
23 shop, somebody from the compound would normally come to take people to
24 work, to cut grass, to the forest, or to the farm or wherever. One guard
25 would take one group. That morning Relja Goljanin came to pick us up,
1 and he was surprised to see how few of us were left, and he asked, "Where
2 are the others?" And we told him the story. We told him about the
3 exchange which took place the previous afternoon, and we explained.
4 Q. Did he react in any way? Did he say something or did he do
5 something after that?
6 A. At that moment he didn't say anything. He only took us to the
7 metalwork shop, but Relja Goljanin reappeared after a while with Savo
8 Todovic, and as I said, we were at the end of the metalwork shop. They
9 were going from one section to another with a piece of paper; we didn't
10 know what it was until he reached us. When he came up to us, he asked us
11 about our names, dates of birth, and other details, and they took them
12 down. So they took our personal details at that time.
13 Q. You said "they took the details down." On what? In a book or on
14 a piece of paper, or what was it?
15 A. They wrote these things on a piece of paper and they took it
17 Q. Was any other worker of the work group taken away after this one
19 A. I think so. I'm not sure. I don't know if that group included
20 Ramiz Maljanovic and the person, if I can use a piece of paper, there are
21 other people.
22 I think Ramiz Maljanovic was taken away, and Rasim Taranin as
23 well, but I'm not sure whether they had been in the metalwork shop at that
24 time. And the people who remained, remained there until our exchange in
25 the end of 1994.
1 Q. Q. Sir, you have this sheet of paper in front of you that we had
2 actually started with. There is this group of people with the same last
3 name, and you told us these were some relatives of you, and I do not want
4 you to mention the names. What happened -- what became of these people?
5 Did they survive the KP Dom?
6 A. Out of those people, no one survived the KP Dom, and they had been
7 taken away for various exchanges.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've been informed by the video
9 booth that the ELMO is now working, for which we're very grateful.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, but we have concluded
11 this description of the exchange, and I think he has made clear where he
13 Q. When you testified in the previous case, you mentioned that
14 you were arrested together with another father and a son. When you
15 described your arrest, you said on a previous occasion, in another trial,
16 that you were arrested, you and 77 -- [redacted] were arrested, and
17 [redacted] father and son. What happened to this [redacted] father and
18 son? Did they survive the KP Dom?
19 A. No, they didn't. And before, before that, another of his sons had
20 been brought in which means that this father and his two sons did not
21 survive the KP Dom.
22 Q. What happened to them? Were they also taken away in a so-called
23 exchange, or what?
24 A. They were all taken for an exchange. We were actually looking
25 forward to those exchanges, thinking that one day our turn would come.
1 However, there were very few actual exchanges, real exchanges. In most
2 cases, they were fatal.
3 Q. Witness, in your previous testimony you have already described the
4 beatings in the KP Dom, and I do not want to repeat all this evidence
5 here. The question that I have is, did any persons return to your room
6 with obvious signs of beatings? Do you recall anybody?
7 A. Before the setting up of the work platoon, I was in Room 16. Two
8 people were taken away from that room. One Mandzo, I don't know his first
9 name, but he was a nurse, I believe; and a man from Josanica whose name I
10 don't really know. He was called Kalabic. They were taken for an
11 interrogation, and when they came back, they had obvious signs of
12 beatings. And this young man, Mandzo in particular, who was a nurse, he
13 carried his shoes in his hands, and he barely made it across the yard.
14 One of his fingers, I don't know on which hand, was broken. And this
15 other man, Kalabic, was badly beaten in his chest and his back, and there
16 was something like a crack on his neck. And they were in the
17 same room as Dr. Amir Berberkic who tried to give them some basic
18 assistance, and he stitched up the laceration on Kalabic's neck. And they
19 used thread to fix the broken finger of the other man.
20 Kalabic had returned from a solitary confinement cell badly beaten
21 up, and at the end of his tether. Also in my room there was Zaim Cedic
22 who was badly beaten up. He was there when I got there. And those are
23 the people I remember from that room.
24 Q. At what time were this Mandzo and this Kalabic, at what time were
25 they taken out, during the evening or during the daytime, for this
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 interrogation that you mentioned?
2 A. No. That was in the middle of the day, and we could see them both
3 being taken out and being brought back.
4 Q. In between this period when you saw them being taken and when
5 they were returned, did you hear anything?
6 A. As soon as those God damn metal doors would close, in most cases
7 we would hear screams, cries for help. Not always, but most of the time.
8 Q. In relation to this Mandzo and Kalabic, did you hear these
10 A. No. We didn't see them screaming because they must have been
11 taken to the administrative building where they were interrogated. We
12 could only see them coming back. We could see the state they were in.
13 Q. My question was actually, did you hear them scream, not that you
14 saw them, what happened to them. Did you hear them scream?
15 A. No, I didn't. I said that already. I couldn't hear any sounds
16 related to the two of them, but I could only see them coming back, and I
17 told you I saw this Mandzo in a very bad state carrying his shoes.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the person Mandzo, the nurse,
19 the Prosecution believes that is number B-37; and Kalabic, that is a
20 person who other witnesses have mentioned, the real name is Hasan Dzano,
21 and it's B-18.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And the person Zaim Cedic mentioned by the
24 Witness is B-11.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 A. Dzano, Dzano, right. You put it nicely.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
3 Q. Witness, you said you were detained until the 4th of October,
4 1994. What happened on this day? How were you taken away?
5 A. I think it was the 5th of October, 1994.
6 Q. Sorry, yes, the 5th. Sorry.
7 A. I was in Miljevina at that moment. I remember this well. It was
8 raining on that morning. I was supposed to work in Kute on a Ford
9 vehicle. They had got spare parts for the engine that I was supposed to
10 put together. Since the spare parts were not right, of course I could not
11 work on that day. Stevanovic nicknamed Sumar was with me. He was the
12 one who got these parts, and since they were no good, he returned them to
14 As we arrived at the motel in Miljevina, I don't know who walked
15 up to us. They said they're looking for [redacted] at the KP Dom, and they
16 said that it was in connection with some kind of exchange. And then they
17 said "You wait here," they went to a different room, and then there
18 was a telephone call which I did not manage to hear. I heard that there
19 was a telephone conversation going on, but I couldn't hear what was being
21 After that, he returned and said, "They're looking for you at the
22 KP Dom, and you have to get all your things." He went to see me off to
23 the police station. After I got out of the police station, after I got
24 into his vehicle, he said, "All of you are going to be exchanged."
25 Then we travelled to Foca.
1 Halfway, after Kute, a vehicle from the KP Dom caught up with us
2 with the new warden, Zoran Sekulovic in it, and yet another person; I
3 can't remember who that was. There were two people there. "They wanted
4 to leave you behind, so that's why I came to pick you up." And that's how
5 we all returned together to the KP Dom.
6 When I got back, everybody was dressed, everybody was ready. They
7 told me that my son was waiting for me in the room, and they told me to
8 get ready, and that's the way it was. When I got back, we all got
9 onto the bus, and of course, we set out for Sarajevo.
10 Q. After having reached Sarajevo, were you returned to Miljevina
11 again, all the detainees on the bus?
12 A. When we reached Sarajevo, Kula, when we were supposed to get out
13 and report with the Red Cross -- actually, in the meantime as we travelled
14 and passed Rogoj, by Rogoj we were overtaken by a police car that honked
15 its horn, and I realised that it was the commander from Miljevina because
16 I knew the vehicle and everything. They didn't stop us there. The
17 vehicle disappeared right in front of us. And then this person, Pedo,
18 reappeared at Kula itself with another man. I think it's Fundup. Also
19 this person had weapons. It was no longer a police Golf, it was a Lada
20 Niva this time.
21 Then they gave us orders that we all had to go back, and they said
22 things like, "Whoever had to get money for an exchange and whatever," so
23 then really we were taken back to Miljevina. Then he said on the way,
24 "Serb young people are getting killed, and money is being taken for these
25 exchanges. All of these people should be taken to Rogoj and executed."
1 That's the gist of what he said, you see.
2 Q. When you say "he," you mean this Pedo?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. How was this situation then solved in Miljevina? Who solved it?
5 A. Everybody went silent after that threat of his. We were all
6 worried, and we all wondered how things would end after what he said. As
7 we reached Rogoj, he was standing there on his own. The driver stopped
8 again. He threatened us. He said don't look here, otherwise I'm going to
9 tear off your heads with bursts of gunfire." So that's how this
10 conversation ended.
11 The driver ignited the engine, and then we went to Miljevina. The
12 vehicle was parked there, and we were joined by a soldier from Rogoj, I
13 think. And he escorted our bus to Miljevina. He was by the bus --
14 Q. Just a moment. We would not need all the details, the
15 question was --
16 A. Details?
17 Q. How was the situation solved? Who actually solved the situation
18 in Miljevina so that you could return and be exchanged?
19 A. Well, most probably after that, delegations came. I don't know
20 who was on this delegation from Foca itself, and a meeting was held at the
21 motel. So it was decided once again that we would be returned for an
23 Q. On this occasion in Miljevina, did you see staff from the KP Dom?
24 Did they also -- were they also one of the delegations that you
1 A. Well, of course. On the first escort there were some people from
2 the KP Dom. I can't remember exactly. And also on the bus itself, there
3 were two persons from the city police, from the town police, two persons.
4 And also the vehicle from the KP Dom, I don't know who escorted this
5 vehicle, but as for down there, I don't know about all these authorities.
6 Probably military authorities from the KP Dom. I don't know who made up
7 this delegation. I mean, the delegation that engaged in these
8 negotiations and that passed a decision to have an exchange take place
10 Q. Did you see Mr. Sekulovic on this occasion in Miljevina when there
11 were these negotiations?
12 A. I can't remember.
13 Q. Let's now talk about some persons from the staff of the KP Dom.
14 Who was the warden before the war?
15 A. I think it was Radojica Tesovic. I think, but I'm not sure, but I
16 think it was Radojica Tesovic.
17 Q. Did you see Mr. Tesovic in the KP Dom during your confinement?
18 A. Towards the end of our exchange, once or twice I may have seen
19 Mr. Tesovic at the farm; however, throughout that period at the KP Dom, I
20 hardly ever saw him.
21 Q. You have already described that you saw Mr. Krnojelac driving in
22 the warden's car. Did you know him from before the war?
23 A. Yes, yes, very often. Not far away from my apartment where I
24 lived was the elementary school where Mr. Krnojelac was a teacher at
25 Gornji Polje.
1 Q. Did you know where he lived before the war?
2 A. I don't know the exact address.
3 Q. Did you hear that his house was destroyed or did you even see that
4 his house was destroyed during the war?
5 A. I heard that, and rumour had it that it was practically at the
6 very outset, perhaps even among the first houses. I did not see this, but
7 I heard about it.
8 Q. Where did he live during the war, do you know that?
9 A. During the war? People talked, or rather, after I was exchanged
10 my wife told me that he lived in Dr. Ismet Sosevic's apartment.
11 Q. Dr. Ismet Sosevic, is that a Muslim?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You said your wife told you that he lived in Dr. Sosevic's
14 apartment. When did she tell you that and how did she know that?
15 A. Well, she told me about that only after my exchange, or rather,
16 our exchange. And she knew through her neighbours because, after all, she
17 did stay there for a long time. I think she stayed in Foca until
18 September 1992. September, October, I'm not sure. I'm not sure about the
19 exact date when she got out.
20 Q. How did you learn about the fact that Mr. Krnojelac was living
21 in this doctor's apartment? Did she approach him there?
22 JUDGE HUNT: Did you -- do you have some information that this is
23 going to get us somewhere? Is it seems to me to be complete hearsay upon
24 hearsay and probably upon hearsay. If there's something in the statement
25 which suggests that there's going to be some probative value in this, you
1 proceed; but it seems to me we're just flogging a very dead horse on this
2 particular point.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think the witness will testify
4 that his wife tried to approach Mr. Krnojelac there to get her son
6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's see what you can get from the witness
7 about that, but otherwise, it's of no probative value.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
9 Q. Did your wife try to approach Mr. Krnojelac to get -- and if so,
11 A. Well, in a way, she tried through her neighbours, her ethnic Serb
12 neighbours. At least, to set her son free. However, after the tragedy
13 that befell his sons and some other persons, these persons themselves said
14 that the time would not be right for that kind of a visit and that kind of
15 a request.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we leave it at that.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
19 Q. You said that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden. When did you learn
20 that and how?
21 A. Well, practically everybody -- practically all the guards
22 addressed Warden Krnojelac as warden, so on the basis of that information
23 and also by virtue of the fact that the car was brought for a repair, it
24 was said that the warden's car had to be checked, oil, water, batteries,
25 the tyres should be pumped up, et cetera. So through these orders we
1 realised that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden.
2 Also, when Mr. Zoran Sekulovic came, he said that he had replaced
3 the warden, that he was the new warden now.
4 Q. Did you actually speak with Mr. Krnojelac while you were detained
5 and while he was the warden?
6 A. No, never. As a matter of fact, I think that hardly any one of
7 the detainees talked to the warden. It was always indirect communication,
8 through someone, that is.
9 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the metalwork shop?
10 A. He would come, but he never addressed us directly. He would come
11 to Relja Goljanin's office and then he'd leave the metalwork shop again.
12 Q. Did you see him talk with Mr. Goljanin or the guards?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did they behave towards Mr. Krnojelac? Was it a respectful
15 manner, was it -- in which way, when you saw that?
16 A. It's hard to explain that. These were conversations that boiled
17 down to issuing orders, things like that. I can't really give you the
18 gist of it.
19 Q. You said that it boiled down to issuing orders. Who was issuing
20 orders to whom?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that he really
24 cannot say what they talked about, and now he's being asked to concretely
25 say who issued orders to who, but this was only his assumption. That's
1 what the witness said, that he only assumed that. And the witness said
2 that he did not know whether he was issuing -- whether orders were being
3 issued or whether they were reaching agreement on something that he did
4 not know about that. That would be a more accurate version of the
5 transcript. I didn't want to react at first.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Are you suggesting that the transcript is wrong,
7 because the transcript itself does not suggest that. It says, "These were
8 conversations that boiled down to issuing orders, things like that. I
9 can't really give you the gist of it." In other words, the terms of it.
10 I don't see that the question is improperly based. When it
11 says, "You said that it boiled down to issuing orders." That's exactly
12 what the witness said.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I did not
14 want to interrupt, but the transcript did not include everything he said.
15 Whether they were issuing orders or whether they were reaching agreement,
16 that I don't know. That is the first thing the witness said. And also,
17 he was not sure whether they were issuing orders or whether they were
18 discussing something like -- something different. And then the question
19 was a leading question, "Who was issuing orders to who?" The witness did
20 not say that specifically. My learned colleague then asked who was
21 issuing orders to who, and the witness did not say with any certainty that
22 orders were being issued to someone.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, I think you and I will probably go
24 to our graves disagreeing about what a leading question is. If the
25 witness says, "That boiled down to issuing orders," then the Prosecution
1 is entitled to ask who issued the orders. That's not a leading question.
2 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Witness, you heard my last question: Who issued orders to whom?
5 A. Specifically, I can answer. I only know about my work. I could
6 never issue orders to my foreman or my boss. It is always my foreman or
7 my boss that issued orders to me.
8 Q. So you got orders from your foreman. Do you know who gave orders
9 to your foreman?
10 A. Yes, yes. Probably somebody that he was subordinated to.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I know we allow a certain
12 amount of hearsay, but this is getting into very dangerous ground to be
13 asking questions like that. How would he know? If I may suggest to you,
14 and this is perhaps an old common lawyer putting it this way, we should
15 first of all determine whether he can give us some direct evidence. He
16 heard somebody giving the order, to give these further orders on. Then it
17 would come in as direct evidence, or, at least, firsthand hearsay. But
18 you are inviting him to speculate, really, and the answer which he gave
19 clearly indicates that he is speculating.
20 Now, I realise this is an important part, but it's important also
21 to get it in properly.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
23 Q. Let me formulate it this way: When you received your order from
24 Goljanin or the foreman that you mentioned, did they ever tell you who
25 ordered them to give you that particular task?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. In a few cases -- this is the third time I'm telling you about the
2 vehicle. As for the other jobs, it was Goljanin who directly issued
3 orders, the person who was in charge of the metalwork shop. How can I
4 tell? In exceptional cases, these were very rare cases, that he would
5 say, "The warden said that you should prepare his car, that the oil should
6 be changed, that the car should be prepared for a journey," things like
8 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac, what was he wearing?
9 A. Mr. Krnojelac regularly wore an olive-green/gray uniform.
10 Q. You mean a military uniform?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. Did he carry a weapon?
13 A. He never did, as far as bigger weapons are concerned. He only had
14 a pistol or something like that. At least, I never saw him with, say, a
15 rifle or an automatic rifle or something like that.
16 Q. Did you see the pistol on him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At what times did you see him? Did you ever see him in the
19 evening or late afternoon?
20 A. Well, before I was taken to this metal group or metalwork shop,
21 that was perhaps 40 days, they regularly came to eat within the compound
22 because the dining room was for detainees, and there was a dining room for
23 the guards. But in between these two dining rooms, there was the
24 kitchen. So everybody came there for meals and that's when I would see
25 Warden Krnojelac most often within the compound. I could see him outside
1 on a few occasions as well as I was going to the metalwork shop and coming
3 Q. Who was with him when you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the yard or outside
4 of the KP Dom?
5 A. That's a bit difficult. Well, with guards, of course, but then
6 it's hard to tell going from one person to another when which person was
7 with the warden because it's been quite a bit of time now.
8 Q. Did you see the warden with Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic?
9 A. He would be in their company.
10 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac in the company of military personnel?
11 A. Well, once, I think. Again, I am going back to the time before I
12 was taken away. About a platoon of soldiers came in uniform with weapons,
13 and then we were terrified, too, we were wondering what would happen.
14 They had placed some mines on some of the green areas within the walls,
15 and I think that then he was in the compound, too.
16 Q. Does that mean he was -- he happened to be in the compound by
17 chance, or did he actually accompany these soldiers? When did you see him
18 with the soldiers?
19 A. I couldn't define that, whether that was by accident or whether he
20 actually entered because that group came. That is hard for me to answer.
21 Q. When you saw these soldiers in the compound, was Mr. Krnojelac
22 with them for quite some time, or did they just pass? Do you know that?
23 A. I cannot remember exactly how much time he spent there with them.
24 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Krnojelac with politicians, in the company of
1 A. No. It happened, though, on one occasion, although I don't
2 remember who it was exactly, we were in the mess room having lunch. A
3 person came wearing civilian clothes with a moustache. It was a short
4 man. He said, "Enjoy your meal," and he introduced himself as the
5 Minister of Justice. I don't remember who was accompanying this person.
6 Q. Did you continue to see Mr. Krnojelac after he was replaced by
7 Mr. Sekulovic?
8 A. Very rarely. By chance. But I never saw him again within the
10 Q. Where did you see him? Did you see him near the KP Dom?
11 A. Yes. There is a restaurant right across which is part of the KP
12 Dom, and that's where I saw him once or twice after his replacement, at
13 the time when we were going to have this snack or coming back from it.
14 That is when I saw him.
15 Q. What was he wearing when you saw him on these two, one or two
17 A. I think he was wearing civilian clothes then. I'm not sure. I
18 think he was wearing civilian clothes.
19 Q. Did he go into the restaurant, or what did you see him do?
20 A. I don't know. It's a very short time coming from the -- getting
21 out of the KP Dom and getting inside. I had no time to stop and watch
22 what he was doing. It's very difficult to answer this.
23 Q. Did any of the guards or the KP Dom staff tell you what
24 Mr. Krnojelac's new job was?
25 A. Not one, but several of them claimed that Mr. Krnojelac was
1 occupying a new position.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't really understand what
3 the witness said after the words "new position." What he said seems
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
6 Q. Would you please repeat your answer. What did the guards tell you
7 what Mr. Krnojelac's new position was?
8 A. He -- they said he was working in the wrong police. I don't know
9 exactly what his position was.
10 Q. What do you mean by "wrong police"?
11 A. Oh, I meant the border police, not the wrong police.
12 Q. Who told you that? Which guard, do you recall?
13 A. Oh, it's difficult to say after nine years, really.
14 Q. Did the border police actually frequent the restaurant that you
15 just mentioned, the restaurant of the KP Dom? Did they actually go
17 A. Allegedly they did. That is something I found out about from a
18 person who went there to clean. His name was Dudic. He told me they were
19 spending nights in that building of the restaurant.
20 Q. This person Dudic, is he -- what is it, Dudic? This person, was
21 he a detainee?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Savo Todovic, what was his exact function in the KP Dom?
24 A. Savo Todovic's job was to coordinate with the working group, and
25 we had the impression that he was the one selecting men for the working
2 Q. Let me cite from a statement that you gave to the Prosecutor's
3 Office dated the 17th of November, 1995.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And for the interpreter, it's page 10,
5 paragraph 3 of this statement.
6 Q. In this statement, it is taken down as your words, "Although
7 Krnojelac was the director, it seemed that Todovic Savo was actually in
8 charge. I say this because he was directing who was going where and who
9 was doing what."
10 Can you explain this sentence? Is it how it was?
11 A. Yes. Well, I have already answered this partly in my previous
12 answer. In everything concerning work and work relations, Savo Todovic
13 was in charge. He decided who was going to work and whether he was going
14 to work at all. And at least, that was our opinion, because Krnojelac
15 never interfered with those things. He would never come and speak
16 directly to prisoners, whereas Savo Todovic did that.
17 And there was an undertone of threat in his voice when he spoke to
18 us. For instance, he would say, "How long do you intend to keep lying
19 about? It's time to go to work." And as far as work is concerned, I
20 think Savo Todovic was more important for us than Krnojelac, even, because
21 he would issue direct orders. He would very often have direct contact
22 with prisoners, and this sentence from my statement was in this context.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will take the reverse
2 order, taking up the things that are freshest in the mind.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
4 Q. [Interpretation] I wish to introduce myself to the witness. I am
5 Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the Defence counsel of the accused Krnojelac and
6 since we have already had problems before with the interpreters and until
7 now you have waited to hear the interpretation of the questions asked by
8 my learned friend, we will now potentially encounter even greater problems
9 because you will have to wait for the interpretation so that everybody
10 understands us.
11 I will take the reverse order, as I said, and we'll come back to
12 the last question asked by my colleague.
13 My learned friend just mentioned to you the last statement you
14 gave in November, on the 17th of November, 1995, something you said about
15 the warden, Mr. Krnojelac, and Savo Todovic, and she asked you to explain
16 what you meant when you said that it seemed to you that it was actually
17 Savo Todovic who was in charge.
18 But it seems that my learned friend did not present to you another
19 statement that you gave on the 3rd of December, 1998, in which you spoke
20 exclusively and very thoroughly about the structure of administration of
21 the KP Dom as you saw it. I will read out to you a statement from that
22 second statement, and you will tell me whether you really stated that or
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is page 3 of the B/C/S version,
25 paragraph 3.
1 Q. It seemed to me that Savo Todovic had a higher position than
2 Krnojelac, and he was in charge of the work obligations of prisoners."
3 Did you really state that it seemed to you that Savo Todovic held a higher
4 position than Krnojelac?
5 A. I can answer this specifically now. When I said that, I meant
6 direct dealings with the work platoon were handled by Savo Todovic, is
7 what I meant. Mr. Krnojelac didn't interfere with that. And who is
8 subordinate to whom is difficult to say. A warden can be -- can hold a
9 higher position than a clerk. It cannot be vice versa.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. What I'm interested in is, is it true that you
11 stated what I just read out to you, that it seemed to you that Todovic had
12 held a higher position than Krnojelac?
13 A. Yes, but precisely in the context which I just explained.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Please, please. You are both coming in too early,
15 both of you. Now, if I can speak to the witness first, do you have the
16 transcript coming up in front of you on the screen there? Do you have
17 typing there?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you would wait until the question has
20 finished being typed out, then that is when you should answer it.
21 Mr. Bakrac, you know that you must wait, too. Please.
22 A. Okay.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Sir, did you know what the exact administration structure in the
25 KP Dom was? Did anybody present any papers to you about that, or did
1 anyone report to you what that structure was, or is this entirely your
3 A. Nobody ever presented to me an official report about the structure
4 of the KP Dom, but according to the conversations and stories told by the
5 guards who handled prisoners within the KP Dom and handled the working
6 group, we knew what the relations were among people, who was commander of
7 the guard, who was the warden. We knew all this, although nobody ever
8 officially explained it to us.
9 Q. Sir, you just said that this impression that Savo Todovic held a
10 higher position than Krnojelac, you explained where this impression came
11 from. Was it also based on the fact that without consulting anyone, Savo
12 Todovic meted out punishment in the compound for workers in the metalwork
13 shop? He said, "You'll get 15 days, you'll get 20." Isn't that so?
14 Wasn't his behaviour in such situations reason for you to get that
16 A. Yes. Specifically, I always speak about the working platoon
17 because that's what I know best. Savo Todovic was the one who designated
18 who will go to work where. And even when he meted out punishment, he did
19 so of his own accord without seeking anyone's approval because he was in
20 charge of workers and work relations. And he decided on those punishments
22 Q. You said the working group. Did Savo Todovic hold a speech to all
23 prisoners of the KP Dom, or only to the working group in the incident
24 described earlier?
25 A. At that time when -- because Ekrem Zekovic had escaped from the
1 metalwork shop, the people working the metalwork shop were taken out for
2 interrogation, which means that he was threatening people from the
3 metalwork shop. Not the entire work platoon because the work platoon also
4 included people who went to work in the mine, people who went out to cut
5 grass, people who went out to the forest, and so on and so forth.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, remember that we have a voice distortion
7 here. If you leave your microphone on, it cancels out the voice
8 distortion. I know it's going to be a nuisance, but it's the only way it
9 can be done.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will try while
11 fighting time, interpreters, and so on, to take care of time as well.
12 Q. Sir, does that mean that within the compound of the KP Dom in the
13 courtyard when Ekrem Zekovic was caught, that Savo Todovic held his speech
14 and presented Ekrem Zekovic only to people from the metalwork shop, or all
15 the prisoners who were in the KP Dom?
16 A. I cannot speak about other rooms. I said in my previous statement
17 already that while we were in solitary cells, they went from room to room
18 and displayed Ekrem Zekovic. I don't know what these people were told. I
19 can only say what we from the metalwork shop were told when we were
20 taken out, what we were told about Ekrem Zekovic, and what he said to us
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Please tell me, who was involved in the
23 interrogation of people on the occasion of the escape of Ekrem Zekovic?
24 A. After the escape of Ekrem Zekovic, we were taken out. I described
25 this in part already. The guards exchanged remarks and threatened us.
1 That started in the cell where I was and continued in the hallway and in
2 the solitary cells. People were taken out from solitary cells and
3 interrogated one by one. Who was involved in the interrogation of
4 individuals, I don't know.
5 Q. You just said, sir, that you heard from the guards who was who. I
6 will take you back to your statement of the 3rd December, 1998, where in
7 paragraph 4 at the beginning you say, "I know that Krnojelac was warden of
8 the KP Dom because that was common knowledge. Everybody knew that,
9 although Serbs did not exactly advertise that fact." What is correct,
10 were you not informed or did Serbs not advertise this fact?
11 A. I do not remember this statement.
12 Q. Would it refresh your memory if I presented it to you?
13 A. Can you read it out again?
14 JUDGE HUNT: Please, please. Just pause, both of you.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I will read it out to you again. "I know that Krnojelac was
17 warden of the KP Dom because that was common knowledge. Everybody knew
18 that, although Serbs did not actually advertise that fact."
19 A. I don't know in what meaning and whether I gave that statement. A
20 long time has passed. But if I did give that statement, I may have meant
21 that apart from the administration and people who went out to work, other
22 people could not have such information. And at the outset, I believe
23 there were rooms where people did not go out at all for months on end, for
24 a month or two months, even. We who worked could get some information
25 precisely from the guards.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Sir, did Krnojelac ever come to the room where you were detained,
2 and did you ever see him in prisoners' quarters?
3 A. No. I'm sure that he didn't.
4 Q. Please wait a little for the interpretation.
5 Sir, when representatives of the Red Cross came, do you remember
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell me who was with them? Who accompanied the
9 representatives of the Red Cross?
10 A. I don't remember exactly, but I remember there was Rasevic, there
11 was Sekulovic. There were more of them when the Red Cross just came.
12 Q. You say Sekulovic. Which Sekulovic?
13 A. I don't remember his name, but it was one of the guards. And I
14 believe the last one to leave the room left through the intervention of
15 the Red Cross, and he was the last to leave.
16 Q. Who was the last to leave?
17 A. I believe Sekulovic, Zoran.
18 Q. Who ordered the guards to put you in a solitary confinement cell
19 when Ekrem Zekovic escaped?
20 A. When Ekrem Zekovic escaped, nearly everyone gathered: the guards,
21 the commander of the guards, deputies of the commander, Savo Todovic. I
22 cannot really say who issued the order to put people in isolation cells.
23 Q. Sir, I will read out to you your statement dated 3rd December,
24 1998, page 4 of the B/C/S version, paragraph 2, sentence number 3: "We
25 who worked in the metalwork shop, the 14 or 15 of us, were taken there
1 first. Savo Todovic ordered us to be placed in that room."
2 A. Yes, he was present, but who issued the order, I don't know. And
3 in the hallway just outside the solitary confinement cell there was he
4 and there was Keli, the man nickname Keli. I don't know his last name.
5 We were lined up at the time, and Keli said to Spirjan, Sefik, "We used to
6 be schoolmates and we are nothing any more," and then he punched him in
7 the stomach. And we were later put into solitary cells. Who issued the
8 order, I don't know, because there were two men present, Savo Todovic and
10 Q. In your statement which I just quoted, it says, "Savo Todovic
11 ordered us to be placed in that room."
12 A. Well, he was there, so it was probably him.
13 Q. Did you see Savo Todovic address the guards and issue orders to
15 A. In which period?
16 Q. If you saw him addressing the guards and issuing orders, you tell
17 us in which period. I'm asking you, in the time when you were detained
18 down there, did you see Savo Todovic address the guards and issue orders
19 to them?
20 A. He specifically issued orders relating to work. Who made the
21 schedules, the rosters for people to go out with working groups, I don't
23 Q. Did Savo Todovic invite you for an interview regarding the conduct
24 of some people in the work department?
25 A. He invited me one evening. A guard, I don't know which guard,
1 came and told me to go down to the reception area. There were several
2 persons there, and one of them was Savo Todovic. Of course, I said "Good
3 evening, and how are you," and he asked me a question. "How do you
4 deserve your cigarettes and your canned food? What did you do to get
5 them?" And I said --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.
7 A. And he said then, "Don't hold yourself above others. Don't think
8 that you have any privileges." How could I possibly think I had any
9 privileges when I was in the camp like everyone else? And that was my
10 conversation with Savo Todovic.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Just before you go on, the interpreters did not get
12 part of that answer. The question which had been asked -- which the
13 witness had asked, "How do you deserve your cigarettes and your canned
14 food? What did you do to get them," we need to know what the answer to
15 that question was that was given by Mr. Todovic.
16 Could you repeat that for us, please, sir? Not the whole of your
17 answer, but what did Todovic say to you when you asked him "How do you
18 deserve your cigarettes and your canned food? What did you do to get
20 A. He told me that, "With people who bring their cars to be repaired,
21 I specifically ask for tinned food and cigarettes in order to do the work
22 at all." He said, "I'm making my work conditional on getting those
23 things." And that's something I never did. It would have never occurred
24 to me to refuse to comply with an order, let alone set my own conditions.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 It's now 11.00, I notice. We'll adjourn now until half past 11.
2 I'm grateful to see that the clock here is now to be right.
3 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.309 30 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, just before the break you told us about a situation when
8 Mr. Todovic called you. You said that there were some other people
9 there. Can you remember how many and what they were wearing?
10 A. I cannot remember the number of persons involved exactly, and I
11 cannot remember these person's names. However, these were people in
12 uniforms, in KP Dom uniforms.
13 Q. Were they guards?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. However, you cannot remember which guards?
16 A. I cannot remember. Let me explain this to you a bit. When
17 somebody calls you in the evening, you get a bit scared, don't you?
18 You're at your wit's end, as a matter of fact.
19 Q. You say in the evening. What time was it approximately?
20 A. That was immediately after dinner. I don't know. It was dark.
21 It was well into the evening. I don't know exactly what time it was.
22 Q. Sir, you talked about the situation when Ekrem Zekovic escaped and
23 when Mr. Ivanovic came and said, "Why didn't you escape, too?" And that
24 you understood this to be a reprimand to the guards that everybody else
25 could have escaped because there were no guards around. Is that correct?
1 A. I don't know exactly who was accompanying Boro Ivanovic but they
2 passed by us because we were lined up at the very bottom of the metalwork
3 shop. They went towards the mechanical workshop. They went behind it.
4 What they said, I don't know; and what their assessment was, I don't know.
5 But when they passed by us, Boro Ivanovic said precisely those words that
6 I mentioned in my statement.
7 Q. In relation to this, did you also mention in your statement that
8 it seemed to you that Ivanovic outranked the guards and Rasovic?
9 A. Well, I don't know Boro Ivanovic's post exactly. People talked,
10 and some of these stories reached us, too. He was some kind of a security
11 man, at least, that's the information that reached us. How correct this
12 information is, I cannot say.
13 Q. Is it correct that in your statement you said that it seemed to
14 you that Mr. ...
15 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Bakrac's microphone was off. The
16 interpreter did not hear the question.
17 A. When they informed Boro Ivanovic that there had been an escape.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, your microphone was off and the
19 interpreters did not hear your question. Can you restate it for their
20 convenience, please.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour, and I do
22 apologise to you. My hand was faster, and I turned off the microphone
23 before I finished putting my question to the witness.
24 Q. I'm asking you, sir, whether it is correct when you spoke in your
25 statement about what Mr. Ivanovic was saying, that it seemed to you that
1 Ivanovic outranked the guards and Rasevic. Is that correct?
2 A. Well, since Boro Ivanovic had been informed about Ekrem Zekovic's
3 escape, that was our conclusion. We thought that he was above these other
5 Q. In terms of the statement that I've just quoted to you, you said
6 that you sometimes heard from the administration building screams and
7 moans. Can you tell us from which part of the administration building you
8 heard this?
9 A. Well, for the most part, the screams could be heard when the guard
10 would come with a list if his hands and call out persons from various
11 rooms. And then when these persons would be taken to the metal door,
12 practically as soon as the metal door would close, practically the screams
13 would follow immediately as soon as the metal door would close.
14 Q. As soon as the metal door would close?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Can I understand it this way, then, that the beatings took place
17 immediately in the hallway, right after the metal door?
18 A. I don't think that people would start screaming just like that
19 without any reason, which is not to say that they were not taken any
20 further; however, the screaming would start immediately after the metal
21 door in the case of certain persons.
22 Q. Did you hear screams from other parts of the administration
23 building, and where from?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, did your wife try to leave Foca
1 unsuccessfully for a while?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When did she finally manage to leave Foca?
4 A. I could not give you the exact date when my wife left. My
5 daughter left a bit earlier with the neighbours, and my wife thought that
6 this infamous KP Dom done would be resolved before it had actually
7 been resolved. She tried to wait for me and my son. However, when all
8 hope was lost, then it was August or September, October, approximately, I
9 can't tell you exactly what the date of her departure was.
10 Q. You said that she was waiting for the situation to get better, but
11 let us be quite precise. Just before she left Foca, did she try to leave
12 but did not succeed in doing so?
13 A. I already gave you an answer, that she did try.
14 Q. Do you know what Mr. Krnojelac's working hours were?
15 A. Well, I cannot say when Mr. Krnojelac came and left exactly, but
16 it was regular working hours, basically.
17 Q. You said, sir, that the border police slept in the restaurant
18 across the street from the KP Dom. How far away is the border from Foca,
19 from the KP Dom? Do you know that, the border with Montenegro?
20 A. I cannot tell you exactly how many kilometres away it is. It's
21 about 30 to 40 kilometres. I can't say exactly.
22 Q. You said that you heard that Mr. Krnojelac, after his house had
23 burned down, was staying at Dr. Sosevic's apartment?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was that apartment owned by Dr. Sosevic or the KP Dom at that time
1 in 1992?
2 A. I can't say exactly whose property it was.
3 Q. Did you own your apartment, or were you given that apartment by
4 your company, and were you allowed to use it in that way?
5 A. I had what was called a tenant's right to this apartment that was
6 owned by my company.
7 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to explain to the Trial Chamber.
8 This legal term that was used in Yugoslavia then when I say tenant's
9 right. Who was the actual owner of the apartment?
10 A. The actual owner was the [redacted]. However,
11 after a while, a person does obtain the tenant's right to a particular
12 apartment, and I had the tenant's right to my apartment.
13 Q. Is that to say that you had the right to use that apartment, but
14 you did not have the right to sell the apartment, to put the money in your
15 own pocket, et cetera?
16 A. At that time, people did not buy their apartments. That's why it
17 was a privilege to have this tenant's right. Whoever would obtain a
18 tenant's right would have the right to use this apartment in a way because
19 in that way, a person would in part in a way become sort of owner of the
20 apartment as well.
21 Q. You could exchange it, but could you sell it? Could you put the
22 money in your own pocket?
23 A. No.
24 Q. To the best of your knowledge, did Dr. Sosevic work in the KP Dom
25 before the war?
1 A. Whether he worked there? Yes, he did. Whether he worked there
2 all the time, I don't know, or whether he worked there only part time, I
3 can't say for sure.
4 Q. Do you know that after his house burnt down, Mr. Krnojelac spent a
5 large part of 1992 in a hotel, the Zelengora Hotel where other refugees
7 A. I heard that there were refugees at the hotel. As for
8 Mr. Krnojelac, I did not know about him being at the hotel itself.
9 Q. You said today that once when a military truck took people out for
10 an exchange, that another military truck was on the other side of the
11 Drina. Can you tell us exactly where?
12 A. Not on the other side of the Drina. It was by the Drina River
13 bank, but it was on the same side where the KP Dom is. At the parking
15 Q. Can you tell us how high the metal door is, the one that leads to
16 the metalwork shop?
17 A. I don't know exactly. I think it's a standard metal door.
18 Q. Could you please be so kind as to explain to us what "standard"
20 A. I mean standard doors. I don't know, like a door, like, like, the
21 door to this courtroom that we enter. Something like that. Of course,
22 they were wider so that vehicles could also enter the compound of the
23 metalwork shop itself.
24 Q. We had a witness here who worked at the metalwork shop who
25 said that he could see across that door when he would climb up onto a
1 kiosk. How could you see the area in front of the KP Dom from the
2 metalwork shop?
3 A. It's simple to explain that. The workshop itself, the locksmith's
4 workshop, the metalwork shop, the blacksmith's shop, the welder's shop,
5 all of that was at the entrance into the metalwork shop as such. However,
6 the mechanic's workshop is a bit further up, a bit higher in relation to
7 the metal door, so I was a bit higher up than those who were down there.
8 Q. You say a bit higher up. Since you are a mechanic, can you tell
9 us how high up this is, and how much higher were you in relation to the
10 other part of the shop?
11 A. It is hard to tell, but -- it is hard to tell, but probably the
12 difference in altitude could have been, say, a metre and a half or even
13 two metres.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. We took over your transcript from a different
15 case that was related to the same area, so I'm just going to put a few
16 questions to you in relation to that testimony. You talked about a period
17 that you also referred to here in your examination-in-chief just before
18 the war broke out, the 5th of April, the rally, et cetera. Did your son
19 do his military service in the Yugoslav People's Army?
20 A. Yes. My son did his military service in the army, and he was
21 precisely in the conflict with the Croats, and the Croat Serbs and the
22 army. He was at Petrova Gora. He was doing his military service there,
23 and his term was extended for a month, a month and a half, I'm not sure.
24 Q. Did you take him out of the Yugoslav People's Army earlier than
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. How could I get him out of the Yugoslav People's Army when his
2 term was extended?
3 Q. When did he leave the army?
4 A. I cannot tell you the exact date.
5 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said to us, sir, that you
6 stood guard in Jelec a few times. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which weapons did you have when you stood guard?
9 A. At that moment, I had my father's rifle. This was a hunting
10 rifle, a personal weapon.
11 Q. You say a hunting rifle. Can you give us a closer description?
12 Which ammunition was needed for this hunting rifle?
13 A. This was a hunting rifle, a two-barreled rifle, a 14-millimetre
14 rifle, a number 14 as it was called.
15 Q. Did ethnic Serbs also take part in the guards in Jelec?
16 A. Since Jelec is practically 98 or 99 per cent Muslim in terms of
17 its population, there are a few houses above Govza and a few above
18 Poljica. They did not take part in these guards, at least, we were not
19 aware of that.
20 Q. Do you know the name of Major Besevic, and who is that?
21 A. After I left Jelec, I'm not sure, it was the 29th or the 30th of
22 April. I think it would be the 30th rather than the 29th. Except for the
23 civilian population, the Muslim population which organised itself at its
24 own initiative with a few hunting rifles, a few automatic rifles, a few
25 M-48 rifles, there weren't any other weapons. And then this Besevic was
1 not in Jelec. After that, rumour had it that after I had left he had
2 stopped by in Jelec, that is.
3 Q. Since you told us here about the rumours you heard concerning
4 other stories, you say that he stopped by. What does that mean, that he
5 stopped in passing or that he came with soldiers to organise the defence?
6 Tell us, exactly what did you hear?
7 A. It was like he was in passing, sort of.
8 Q. There was a witness here who was from Jelec who said that he had
9 come with a certain number of soldiers, and that the people of Jelec
10 wanted to hand over their weapons; however, that he organised fighting.
11 A. That is what I learned after I left. What kind of agreement was
12 reached between Besevic and the population of Jelec, I really cannot talk
13 about these details.
14 Q. When you returned to Foca on the 30th, around the 30th of April,
15 until the 25th of May, was there a curfew that was on in Foca?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was this a curfew for all citizens?
18 A. I heard with my very own ears when a police vehicle with a loud
19 speaker went all around town, and when they were saying that Muslims were
20 prohibited from assembling in the street and moving about town, and that
21 they were supposed to stay in their own homes. I heard that with my very
22 own ears.
23 Q. Was there a curfew for all citizens in Foca in the evening hours?
24 A. I cannot know that because I did not leave my building.
25 Q. You said that you came from Jelec because your wife was ill. Did
1 you take her to see a doctor?
2 A. Yes. She had tonsillitis. She had a sore throat, and I had to
3 take my wife somewhere. The war in Sarajevo had already started. I had
4 to take my wife somewhere, Kalinovik, Miljevina, or Foca.
5 Q. May I just interrupt you, sir. I'm sorry. We don't want to use
6 up too much time. I'm just interested in what happened when you came back
7 to Foca. Please just don't talk at the same time when I talk. Let's not
8 speak at the same time.
9 So when you came in Foca, did you take her to the doctor after
11 A. No.
12 Q. How did she get better, then?
13 A. A lady who is my next door neighbour, she lived at the apartment
14 to the right of my apartment. She brought some antibiotics and it is due
15 to these antibiotics that my wife got well.
16 Q. Is your next door neighbour a Muslim?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What is she by ethnicity?
19 A. I'm not sure whether she's a Hungarian or a Serb.
20 Q. What about her husband, what ethnicity is he?
21 A. A Serb.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. You said to us -- you talked to us in detail
23 about how you were taken to the KP Dom and who took you. You mentioned
24 that you knew three out of the four persons involved. Is it correct that
25 when you arrived in the KP Dom, one of the persons who brought you in said
1 to the guard to take you to Room 16?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So the person who arrested you, or, rather, who took you from your
4 apartment to the KP Dom said to the guard to which room to take you
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And were you taken to the room that this person said you should be
8 taken to?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This person who said to the guard which room you should be taken
11 to, what did this person wear?
12 A. Camouflage uniform.
13 Q. Military camouflage uniform?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you, sir. You said you were taken to room 16, then you
16 spent a short while in Room 18 before being taken to building number 1.
17 Can you remember when that was and on which floor you were?
18 A. That was all in 1992. I cannot remember the dates and months. We
19 spent a very long time precisely in that room in building number 1, and
20 that's the building from which we were taken to the exchange.
21 Q. You said in 1992, was it autumn, winter? Can you try to remember
22 the month?
23 A. It was August or September approximately. I'm not sure.
24 Q. If you can remember, what room was it? If not, then on which
1 A. Room 13.
2 Q. Could you please be so kind as to explain, you said, "We were
3 taken." Was the entire work platoon taken with you to Room 13?
4 A. When there were problems related to taking people to work, they
5 probably wanted to avoid taking people out from different rooms, so we
6 were all put into one room. We spent a very short while in Room 16, and
7 then we were all transferred to Room 13. There may have been exceptional
8 cases when somebody was taken out from a different room, but that happened
9 by chance.
10 Q. So from August or September, most of those who worked were in the
11 same room with you?
12 A. Yes. With a proviso that some people -- few of them, though, were
13 in different rooms, and were taken out as required.
14 Q. But beginning with August or September 1992, Room 13 was the
15 working room?
16 A. I said before yes, but approximately. I don't know how to put
17 it. I don't remember it that well.
18 Q. You said you started to work about a month or so after you were
19 brought to the KP Dom. Is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. When you were told that you were going to work, did you refuse?
22 Did you rebel? Did you express any disapproval?
23 A. I think that to rebel or to express disapproval would have been a
24 big risk. It didn't occur to me to refuse.
25 Q. You mentioned Dule or Dusan who worked in the metalwork shop. Do
1 you know by any chance when he started to work and for how long he worked
2 in the metal shop?
3 A. I think practically throughout, all the time.
4 Q. From time when you came until the moment when you left the KP
6 A. I believe that is so.
7 Q. Were there any tinsmiths or welders in the metalwork shop?
8 A. There were various profiles of metal workers, from welders,
9 mechanics, locksmiths, and so forth.
10 Q. You told us yesterday that you did whatever was needed, that you
11 repaired vehicles, that you did all kinds of jobs related to servicing of
12 vehicles, changing oil, repairs. Is that correct?
13 A. It is completely correct, all of it.
14 Q. So, sir, you did all the repairs required on vehicles, but the
15 only thing you were defending -- you were defended to repair was the
16 exhaust pipe on the kedi vehicle?
17 A. Whether it was defended or they didn't have it, I don't know,
18 because there were other cases when repairs were required on other
19 vehicles but we couldn't do it because there were no spare parts.
20 Q. You are a mechanic. Do you mean to tell me that an exhaust pipe
21 with a hole in it cannot be repaired? You have a tinsmith and you have a
22 welder. Do you mean to say that you cannot just fix it?
23 A. Yes, it can be patched.
24 Q. But for this particular car, they did not tell you to patch the
25 exhaust pipe?
1 A. Many vehicles, speaking about proper technical working order, were
2 not up to snuff. They had various faults.
3 Q. Does that mean that there were other vehicles with faulty exhaust
5 A. I'm not saying specifically that it was all cars, but there were
6 about -- there were some with faulty exhaust pipes which had holes in
8 Q. I didn't understand what you said about 16.
9 A. Sixteen is a freight vehicle. Sixteen was a reference to its
10 tonnage and it was driven by Miso Krsmanovic.
11 Q. When you mean it was often driven, does it mean that this person
12 frequently took it out of the KP Dom and brought it back?
13 A. That was a vehicle which belonged to the KP Dom.
14 Q. And it also had a faulty exhaust pipe?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that the fishpond in Jelec, as far as
17 you knew, was emptied. Are you aware that there is a fishpond at Bukovica
18 near Mjesaja?
19 A. I'm very aware of that
20 Q. Are you aware that part of the fish from Jelec were transferred to
21 Bukovica near Mjesaja?
22 A. I'm not aware of that.
23 Q. You said that one morning you noticed this kedi vehicle washed.
24 Can you remember when that was?
25 A. It's very difficult to remember that date because it's been a long
1 time, and I'm starting to forget even names and surnames and nicknames,
2 let alone remember exact dates.
3 Q. I would appreciate it, sir, if you could tell us to the best of
4 your memory, if not the date, then the month when you saw that vehicle.
5 A. Well, approximately about a month or two months after my arrival,
6 approximately within that time frame.
7 Q. You mean after your arrival?
8 A. No, after I was taken out. Please don't pin me down to dates,
9 because I started to be taken out from the KP Dom to the metalwork shop at
10 some point.
11 Q. So, sir, you mean to say a month or two after you were taken out
12 to the metalwork shop?
13 A. I'm saying approximately. It can vary. It's perhaps a month
14 sooner or later. You're asking me to say something that I don't remember
16 Q. You are a witness here and we are discussing a very important
17 matter. I don't want to insist that you remember something that you
18 cannot remember, but I'm just asking you to tell us to the best of your
19 memory when approximately you saw that vehicle washed.
20 A. I just said. A month or a month and a half later, and even that
21 is not a time frame I can swear to. But if you insist, let it be a month
23 Q. So counting from your arrival to the KP Dom, that would be two or
24 three months later?
25 A. Two months, two to three months at the outside.
1 Q. So that would make it the end of August, early September?
2 A. No, no. In any case, it would be before that. Let us see. May,
3 June. That could have been August, perhaps.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, since it was a month after you
5 started working, how many times did you wash that car before that?
6 A. That, too, is a difficult question to answer, how many times I
7 worked on the kedi, how many times I worked on the vehicle 16 or vehicle
8 20, or the vehicle FAP. I cannot say. It's a long period. I cannot say
9 how many times I had to deal with a particular vehicle.
10 Q. I asked you, sir, how many times before the time when you saw it
11 washed did you wash it yourself?
12 A. We washed it and we oiled it and lubricated it and changed the oil
13 and did all the work that needed to be done on all the vehicles of the KP
14 Dom. We were the only ones who had to do that work. I cannot remember
15 how many times I did that.
16 Q. Did you ever wash this kedi at all before you saw it washed?
17 A. We washed all vehicles, not only that one.
18 Q. When you saw that vehicle washed, did you see any traces of blood
20 A. No. I was just passing by. I only saw a vehicle freshly washed.
21 I couldn't see any blood. We were just passing by on our way to the
22 metalwork shop.
23 Q. On that day when you saw that washed kedi, did you work normally
24 in the metalwork shop as on any other day?
25 A. Quite normally.
1 Q. All the people who normally worked in the metalwork shop, you
2 worked normally throughout the day?
3 A. I cannot remember about everyone, but it was a regular working day
4 for us. I don't know whether it was the same for everyone.
5 Q. Can you remember who was next to you when you were passing by that
7 A. It's a very difficult question to which I cannot give an answer.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned Miso Krsmanovic, if I remember
9 correctly, a driver, and you mentioned that you prepared the vehicle for
10 the road. Whose driver was Miso Krsmanovic?
11 A. Miso Krsmanovic used to drive the 1620 freight vehicle, and
12 whether there was somebody in that vehicle with him, I cannot know; where
13 he went, who was with him.
14 Q. To your knowledge, did Miso Krsmanovic travel frequently?
15 A. Yes. And another driver, his last name is Milic. I cannot
16 remember the first name. The two of them took turns on that 1620
18 Q. Did these men also drive the red 128 that you mentioned?
19 A. I cannot say that with any certainty, but I saw that vehicle when
20 it came to the metalwork shop to be serviced for tyres to be pumped up, et
21 cetera. That vehicle was brought to us because Mr. Krnojelac never
22 contacted with us, really.
23 Q. So Krsmanovic and Milic would bring that red 128 vehicle to be
24 prepared for the road?
25 A. You misunderstood me. I was speaking about the 1620 vehicle, and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 these men -- in fact, it was mainly the chief of the metalwork shop,
2 Goljanin, who brought the vehicle for servicing.
3 Q. Outside those occasions when it was brought to be serviced at your
4 shop, did you have any occasion to find out where that vehicle was driven,
5 when it went out to town?
6 A. That was not my job. My job was to prepare that vehicle for --
7 when the warden needed it.
8 Q. Did you do that often, prepare the vehicle for the road for
10 A. Not very frequently.
11 Q. You said you serviced it almost every month.
12 A. I say not very frequently, using as a reference my journeys to
13 Miljevina which lasted a month each. So if I take into account that I
14 went to Miljevina three or four times and was away for a month at least
15 each time, that means I was away from the KP Dom at least for four months.
16 Q. While you were in Miljevina, did anyone else take care of that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us who?
20 A. The late Sevko Kubat. For a while, Rasim Taranin was the man. In
21 another period it was the person under the number 144. He sometimes
22 worked in the metalwork shop. Those were approximately the people who
23 worked up there.
24 Q. Did you repair military vehicles, vehicles of the military police?
25 A. Yes. On one occasion only, it was a Deutz vehicle. Deutz 110.
1 It came to the compound one day, and there was an UAZ vehicle with a
2 changed engine. It used to be a petrol engine, but it was changed.
3 Another engine was built into it. I don't know whose property it was. I
4 don't know whether it was owned by the army or the military police. Only
5 one military vehicle came to the KP Dom.
6 Q. Did you notice outside the KP Dom a VW vehicle which also had a
7 peculiar sound of the exhaust pipe, Volkswagon?
8 A. Out of those vehicles, the only one I know is the one which took
9 me to Miljevina. It was a Golf, a Volkswagen Golf. After the warden was
10 replaced, a new vehicle appeared, a brand new white Golf diesel, and that
11 was the only vehicle I noticed there. And only one time did a Volkswagen
12 Bug arrival, a Beetle.
13 Q. Whose was it?
14 A. I don't know who the owner was, but at that moment Janic, also
15 known as Tuta, was in the metalwork shop, and a man called Daco, and I
16 don't know if there was anybody else who came with those vehicles.
17 Q. Did that vehicle have a peculiar sound of the exhaust pipe?
18 A. I don't know because it didn't come up to the metalwork shop. It
19 stopped at the metal gate. The man alone worked to the workshop.
20 Q. You said yesterday during your examination-in-chief that you
21 frequently took tyres from the waste dump, patched them, and fixed them
22 onto cars. Do you know why you did that?
23 A. Because there were no new tyres available. We found very few new
24 tyres and we had to do with old ones.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. You said in your statement that the International
1 Red Cross brought some furnaces. Were those furnaces distributed to you?
2 Were they distributed among the prisoners?
3 A. Yes. After the arrival of the International Red Cross, the
4 furnaces were distributed.
5 Q. You said that Sevko Kubat died at the KP Dom. Could you tell us
6 when that happened, which month approximately and which year?
7 A. I cannot tell you the month or the date, but it was in 1994,
8 perhaps four months before all of us were exchanged.
9 Q. So it was in 1994 that Savo Todovic reprimanded him for not
10 working, for shirking from work?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. You spoke about the Miljevina mine and how you
13 went there in December 1992 and tried to repair some cars and make them
14 operational. You also mentioned that a working group was formed to work
15 at the Miljevina mine. Do you know when it was formed and when it started
17 A. I don't know exactly.
18 Q. Are you familiar with the name Todor Stojanovic?
19 A. I don't remember.
20 Q. I have a register of duty rosters here. Do you -- these duty
21 rosters refer to the mine. Do you allow for the possibility that the
22 first group went to work at the mine in September 1993?
23 A. I cannot claim because I am not sure.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. When you went to Miljevina for the first time,
25 you said Pedo and another person were with you in the vehicle. What was
1 Pedo wearing?
2 A. He had a camouflage uniform on.
3 Q. A military camouflage uniform?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Did he also carry an automatic rifle?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it true that you stated that you were the only one who was
8 taken out at that time?
9 A. No. Before that, smaller groups had been taken out to disassemble
10 some machines. All I know is that two or three men would be taken out to
11 town which means that I was not the only one at that moment.
12 Q. Do you know when Dr. Torlak left the KP Dom?
13 A. I cannot remember the date in his case, either, but it was
14 sometime in 1993,. I think he was among the last people to leave the KP
16 Q. Is it also true that you stated that you had heard that Dr. Torlak
17 was taken to Pale?
18 A. I didn't hear anything of this sort.
19 Q. I will read out to you, sir, a part of your statement given to the
20 Office of the Prosecutor in 1995. It's page 9, one paragraph before last
21 towards the end. "When I was in Miljevina I heard that Dr. Torlak had
22 been taken out to be a doctor at Pale."
23 A. Yes, yes, I remember that statement now. And that's the story
24 that did the rounds. I'm sorry, it's been a long time and that's really
25 the statement I have given, and I could say the same thing again.
1 Q. When you were passing through the hole behind the metal door, that
2 is the path you had to take every day to the metalwork shop; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. From the moment you started working, that is to say, 40 or 45
6 days after you were brought to the KP Dom; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see blood on the walls in that hall?
9 A. I personally did not see any blood; however, what was very
10 noticeable was lots and lots of holes in the wall from bullets that had
11 been fired.
12 Q. In that hall, how wide is that hall?
13 A. About two and a half, three metres. It's longer than that. I'm
14 just telling you all of this approximately.
15 Q. However, you saw these holes on the lateral walls that are two,
16 two and a half metres away from each other; is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's right.
18 Q. Did you see bullet holes anywhere else except in that hall?
19 A. Of course there were holes outside, too, on the facades, then also
20 at the metal shop you could see lots of casings and things like that,
21 because there was quite a bit of shooting at first. You didn't know where
22 the shooting was coming from or who was shooting or whatever.
23 Q. You talked about persons who came to your room after beatings.
24 You mentioned a few persons. Did they tell you where they had been beaten
25 and who had beaten them?
1 A. Yes. A few people came, although most of the people who had been
2 beaten very badly would end up in isolation cells very often, and there
3 were some persons who were brought directly to the rooms. Never could a
4 person mention the name of the person who had beaten that person because
5 they were mostly masked, things like that, in most cases, that is.
6 Q. When you say masked, you mean that they had masks on their faces;
7 but do you know what they wore, what kind of clothes?
8 A. They did not explain this in detail, what kind of uniforms they
9 were in, that is.
10 Q. Yesterday you spoke about Mohamed Alikadic that you saw him at the
11 window. At which window, which room, which floor, which part of the
13 A. I don't know which room number that was. That is at the pavilion
14 where we were, opposite Room 16 to the right. I think it was the last
15 floor, in the very corner.
16 Q. Was the window open?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. So he leaned across the open window and showed this to you, or
19 what happened?
20 A. No, no. It so happened that as I was leaving the dining room I
21 glanced at that building, the window was open. He was about a metre or a
22 metre and a half into the room, and we knew each other very well and
23 probably our glances met. And he just sort of signalled to me that he'd
24 like a cigarette or a shaver, but that was impossible since he had already
25 been in isolation.
1 Q. Was there anybody else with him in that room on the top floor?
2 A. I can't say because I did not see anybody but him.
3 Q. You said that he asked you not to tell anyone about what he had
4 done. Did you tell anyone?
5 A. Only the investigation.
6 Q. Do you know whether he told any other detainee?
7 A. I'm not sure.
8 Q. Do you know that as records what Alikadic did from the base to the
9 Osanica bridge there was only Serb-held territory?
10 A. I was not quite aware of the separation line, but allegedly it was
11 the Osanica bridge.
12 Q. So from the bridge towards Foca towards the KP Dom, it was
13 Serb-held territory?
14 A. That's the way it was supposed to have been.
15 Q. You said that in that truck that he drove backwards, he had been
16 tied to the seat. Do you know what he had been tied with?
17 A. He did not tell me what he had been tied with, but he said that he
18 had been tied and buckled to the seat.
19 Q. Sir, you said that in the KP Dom you got pneumonia and that they
20 had to treat you. Who treated you, and when did you get pneumonia?
21 A. Pneumonia? Pneumonia? I got pneumonia -- I'm not sure. I'm not
22 sure whether it's 1992 or 1993. I think it's the winter of 1993. I was
23 in Miljevina. In the morning I got up and I was all feverish, and they
24 took me back to the KP Dom. Gojko was there then, and that moment Aziz
25 Torlak was at Gojko's and Karovic, too, and they came to the conclusion
1 that it was pneumonia on the left side.
2 I was prescribed penicillin injections. I don't know exactly how
4 Q. Did you get these penicillin shots?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who was Gojko?
7 A. He was the nurse who worked at the clinic in the KP Dom.
8 Q. What were Dr. Aziz Torlak and Dr. Karovic doing at his place?
9 A. I don't know. I don't know what they were doing then, but that
10 moment when I came to the office, they were there with Gojko. At Gojko's
11 insistence that they should also listen to me through the stethoscope,
12 they all came to the same conclusion.
13 Q. How long did you take -- did you get these penicillin shots, for
14 how long, for how many days?
15 A. I said just now that I don't know exactly for how long. I think I
16 got seven of them. I'm not sure. Every day a shot.
17 Q. Who gave you these shots? Who administered them to you?
18 A. Precisely Gojko.
19 Q. You went to the clinic, I presume?
20 A. Yes. I went to the clinic. But again, I was always escorted by
21 the person who was on duty in the compound.
22 Q. Did you see Dr. Dobrilovic or Dr. Vladicic come into the clinic at
23 the KP Dom where Gojko worked?
24 A. Yes, yes, once, once. I said that we went out, so perhaps they
25 came several times, but once I did notice them coming to the building
1 where the KP Dom clinic was.
2 Q. Sir, you talked about the transit room. This transit room at the
3 administration building of the KP Dom, did it have any windows and which
4 direction did these windows face?
5 A. I don't know which transit room you're referring to.
6 Q. You pointed out a transit room to the left of the entrance behind
7 the room, the reception office, where the guards were?
8 A. Yes, yes. I think these windows faced the road, the Drina.
9 Q. Sir, yesterday you said here that because you worked so hard at
10 the KP Dom, your back was injured. Before the KP Dom, did you have an
11 office job or did you also work hard before the war broke out and before
12 you came to the KP Dom?
13 A. Yes, yes. I was only a mechanic. But I worked at the [redacted]
14 [redacted] all the time, and that was quite different from
15 everything else. We had lifts and extra lifts and all the most up-to-date
16 equipment a the time.
17 Q. You said that your eyes also got weaker, your eyesight due to the
18 KP Dom. Are you aware of the fact that in your 40s, your eyesight gets
19 poorer, or do you think it only has to do with the KP Dom?
20 A. I am not an expert in medicine; however, I did notice that my
21 eyesight was getting poorer, much poorer. What the reason for this is,
22 I'm really no expert. I cannot be the judge of that.
23 Q. Thank you very much, sir.
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, these were all the
25 questions that the Defence had of this witness.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Re-examination, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour, I have a few matters
3 to clarify. First of all, I think there is a mistake in the transcript,
4 but I didn't want to interrupt Mr. Bakrac because I want to clarify it
6 On page 45, line 5 it was actually in the transcript that before
7 his transfer to the Room 13 he was briefly in Room 16, and I think that's
8 a mistake and I just want to clarify it.
9 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
10 Q. You said first you were in Room 16, then you were transferred to
11 Room 18, and finally to Room 13. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes. I already said that to the gentleman. I explained it to
13 him. I don't know whether you understood what I was saying.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, it has to be number 18
15 instead of number 16 as it says in the transcript, then.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that may or may not be so, but it doesn't
17 matter. He's now got it sorted out.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
19 Q. You also mentioned this 1620 freight vehicle which also has a --
20 had something wrong with the exhaust pipe. The sound of this 1620 freight
21 vehicle, was it different from the kedi, the sound that the kedi exhaust
22 pipe made?
23 A. Of course it was, because a freight vehicle and a passenger
24 vehicle can never make the same kind of noise, and it can never be of the
25 same loudness as well.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. In relation to the red 128, you said that Goljanin usually brought
2 it, brought it in when it was to be serviced by you. From where did he
3 bring it in, do you know that?
4 A. It is hard to say where he brought it from because the compound of
5 the metalwork shop is closed. I already described the door. So where
6 could this vehicle come from? Somewhere from the outside, from the
7 parking lot, wherever.
8 Q. Was there a special parking lot for the cars belonging to the KP
10 A. Certainly.
11 Q. Where was it?
12 A. Part of it was right next to the KP Dom. The other part was
13 across the street, on the other side of the road as you go towards the
14 hospital. And also, lots of old vehicles, Furgons that were no longer
15 used, were parked at this other end of the parking lot on the other side
16 of the road.
17 Q. Do you know where the red 128 was usually parked? Did you see it
18 on any of these parking spots that you just mentioned?
19 A. Well, even if they were parked, these official vehicles and
20 personal vehicles would usually be parked right by the KP Dom.
21 Q. And did you see this red 128 being parked there?
22 A. Well, perhaps a few times.
23 Q. Did you ever see someone else driving it except for Mr. Krnojelac
24 and Mr. Goljanin?
25 A. I never noticed.
1 Q. Mr. Bakrac addressed with you the bullet holes that you saw in the
2 hall behind the metal door. Would you be able to point it out on a photo
3 where you saw the holes?
4 A. If you have one.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
6 show the photo 7470. That is a photo that we have already discussed with
7 the witness. The bottom, the bottom photo, please.
8 Q. Sir, are you able to point to us where you saw the bullet holes?
9 A. Let me just explain. These holes had just been patched by two
10 young men from Djidjevo. One is [redacted], the other one I don't know. You
11 can perhaps notice a patched hole here, and I don't know where else.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
13 microphone; he can no longer be heard.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
15 A. These holes here were patched by two young men from Djidjevo. One
16 was [redacted]; I don't know the other one. I don't know his last name, that
17 is. And they were precisely in my room. And one day in the afternoon, it
18 was around 12.00 or -- I don't know, I wasn't working that day. They were
19 taken out, and they were patching these holes.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is --
21 A. That's it, approximately.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the wall to the
23 right from the yellow arrow, that is, to the right from the metal door,
24 and he was pointing at the lower, lower part of the wall, almost close to
25 the floor.
1 Yes, thank you. And these were the questions that the Prosecution
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much, sir, for giving evidence.
4 You're now free to leave.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE HUNT: Now, is 172 your next witness.
8 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: From last week, yes. What are the protective
10 measures for this Witness?
11 MS. KUO: The witness was granted a pseudonym, image distortion,
12 and voice distortion.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if it's going to be voice distortion, the video
14 people like to have a special test done with him. I think we may adjourn
15 for our lunch now and resume at 2.30 instead of taking another 10-minute
16 break when we come back. 2.30, then.
17--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.51 p.m.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo. Is this your witness?
4 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Stand up, please, sir. Would you please
6 make the solemn declaration in the terms of the document which is being
7 shown to you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: FWS-172
11 [Witness answered through interpreter].
12 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir. The pseudonym document will
13 be Exhibit P441, and it is under seal.
14 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
17 A. Good afternoon.
18 Q. Witness, before you is a sheet of paper which is document P441,
19 and on top of it you will see FWS-172. Do you see that?
20 A. I see it.
21 Q. Underneath that, is that your name?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Beneath your name, is that your birth date?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Beneath your birth date, is that the profession that you had in
1 Foca in 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And below that, is that the name of the place where you were
4 working in 1992?
5 A. [redacted]
6 Q. Very well. Sir, in 1992, how long had you been working at your
8 A. I did my regular work in shifts.
9 Q. Without telling us what you were doing because you've asked for us
10 to keep this under seal, could you tell us how many years you were working
11 at that profession?
12 A. I have a total of 38 years of service.
13 Q. In 1992, where were you living?
14 A. [redacted]
15 Q. Were you married?
16 A. Yes, but I'm a widower.
17 Q. When the war began in Foca in April 1992, were you at home?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you go to work during that time?
20 A. When the war started in April, there was the first casualty, a
21 neighbour of mine who was a policeman. I asked for two days' sick leave
22 to attend the funeral of this man who was killed. That man was a
23 policeman. [redacted], and he was the first casualty in
25 Q. After the sick leave to attend his funeral, did you go back to
2 A. Yes. I came back to work, and on my way to work from home, we
3 made a detour. I had boarded a bus going downtown, and when we reached
4 the army hall, we saw that all the windows had been broken and there were
5 automatic weapons pointed at the bus.
6 Q. How long did you stay at work?
7 A. At that time I stayed at work. I was sort of repaying other
8 colleagues working their shifts so that from the 11th of April until the
9 25th of April, I didn't leave the hospital at all because it was
10 impossible to leave the hospital compound. The bus didn't run any longer,
11 and it was dangerous to take that road because the plateau in front of the
12 hospital was under constant attack from the surrounding hills. It was
13 covered with bursts of gunfire, so it was unsafe to leave or to come back.
14 Q. Now, you said, sir, that you were at the hospital until the 25th
15 of April. Was the hospital functioning at that time?
16 A. The hospital was functioning around the clock. It was receiving
17 wounded and sick people who were coming in.
18 Q. Did it receive patients of one ethnicity or another?
19 A. The hospital admitted all patients who came in asking for help.
20 Q. Did you notice whether the patients were civilian or military?
21 A. Most of them were civilians. One evening we admitted four people
22 wounded by shells from Foca itself. It was around 1.00 we received
23 several patients from Visegrad, including some elderly people and several
25 Q. Do you know what ethnicity those four from Visegrad were?
1 A. All of them were Bosniak.
2 Q. Was the hospital ever taken over by Serb military?
3 A. After four or five days, I'm not sure of the date, it might have
4 been the 15th or the 16th, the army took over the hospital.
5 Q. In what way did they take it over?
6 A. One evening they simply walked in. Nobody offered any
8 Q. Did the military change the way the hospital was being run?
9 A. The hospital worked normally. The soldiers introduced themselves
10 as the Serbian guard, White Eagles, Arkan's men, and locals who were
11 hiding their faces. At least, some of them.
12 Q. Were the Serb forces armed?
13 A. All of them were armed with automatic weapons.
14 Q. Did any of them ever interfere with the admission of patients into
15 the hospital?
16 A. In the first two or three days, no.
17 Q. And then?
18 A. Later, on the 16th or the 17th, they personally brought two
19 wounded Bosniaks.
20 Q. Do you know where they were brought from?
21 A. They were brought from a place near Foca. One came from a village
22 called Sukovac, and the other one was from downtown. I know the names of
23 these people.
24 Q. Could you tell us their names, please. Uzeir Cankusic was
25 wounded in his shoulder, in his right shoulder
1 Q. And the second person?
2 A. And the second person was an auto mechanic, Ibro Selimovic.
3 Q. What happened when Mr. Cankusic and Mr. Selimovic were brought to
4 the hospital?
5 A. That was in the evening hours, and the medical team on duty,
6 Dr. Supic, a surgeon, and Dr. Aziz Torlak, also a surgeon, wanted to admit
7 these two and keep them for treatment because they were in need of medical
9 Q. Were they allowed to stay?
10 A. The people who brought them didn't allow it, so the men were just
11 bandaged and taken back.
12 Q. Do you know -- you mentioned that Mr. Cankusic was injured in the
13 shoulder. Do you know specifically what injuries he had?
14 A. His injuries were inflicted by firearms.
15 Q. And Mr. Selimovic?
16 A. He was beaten up, and his ribs were fractured.
17 Q. Now, you said the guards who brought Mr. Cankusic and
18 Mr. Selimovic to the hospital would not let them stay and receive
19 treatment. Do you know why they were brought there at all?
20 A. I don't know why. They took them back immediately, but they
21 brought them again the next morning.
22 Q. What happened the next morning when they were brought back?
23 A. The next morning the surgical team on duty wanted to admit them
24 once again.
25 Q. Who brought them the next morning?
1 A. They were brought by two uniformed military men. One of them was
2 referred to as Vojvoda, which means the duke. I didn't know who the man
4 Q. Were they members of the Serb military?
5 A. They were members of what was called the Serbian guard.
6 Q. And were those two men allowed to be treated by the surgical
8 A. As I said, the surgeons were not allowed to give them medical
9 assistance. Instead, they were taken through -- across the compound of
10 the hospital and outside the compound, sorry.
11 Q. Was it just those two men, or was there anybody else with them?
12 A. Since I was at my workplace, I could see only two of them in the
13 hallway which was next to me. They were taken outside the compound, and
14 perhaps five or 600 metres away from the hospital they were found dead the
15 next day. They had been killed.
16 And another person, another wounded man who had spent the night at
17 the hospital had been taken away with them. His name was Adnan Isanovic.
18 Q. What happened to Mr. Isanovic?
19 A. He had been taken away with them and killed, too.
20 Q. How do you know that they were killed?
21 A. Some passersby came in to the hospital and told us that it had
23 Q. Do you know who killed them?
24 A. I didn't see it, but I know who took them away.
25 Q. Who took them away?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. The people I mentioned, the one called Vojvoda and his escort.
2 Q. Did either of those two men make any comments before these three
3 men were led away?
4 A. The one who called himself Vojvoda told the surgeon that they were
5 finished, that he personally would cure them.
6 Q. Did you ever see the bodies of those three men who were killed?
7 A. Yes, I did. The corpses were collected and brought to the
8 hospital morgue.
9 Q. Is that where you saw them?
10 A. I saw them and several other people who were identified by
11 Dr. Zijo Ajanovic.
12 Q. Do you know where Mr. Cankusic and Mr. Selimovic were taken, where
13 they spent the night before this happened, from the first visit to the
14 hospital to the second?
15 A. They told me that they had spent the night at the KP Dom, the
16 former prison, and that they couldn't get any sleep from the pain.
17 Q. Who told you that?
18 A. That sick man, the men told me that when they came again the next
20 Q. Were there ever any incidents where soldiers at the hospital shot
21 at anyone?
22 A. Soldiers didn't shoot at the staff at the hospital. On one
23 occasion there was a van going along the left bank of the Drina River
24 carrying five, six, or ten women and children, and from the compound they
25 shot at them with automatic weapons, and they hit the driver. The van
1 swerved and crashed into the cemetery called Patkovina.
2 Q. Were any of the injured from that crash brought to the hospital?
3 A. Yes. The driver was shot dead in the head, and some women and
4 children were brought to the hospital.
5 Q. Was that vehicle a military vehicle or civilian, do you know?
6 A. It was a civilian van, and inside, inside the van were only women
7 and children.
8 Q. What ethnicity were the women and children and driver?
9 A. They were of Muslim or Bosniak ethnicity.
10 Q. What direction were they headed when they were shot?
11 A. They were going towards Gorazde along the left bank of the Drina.
12 Q. Were any staff members from the hospital taken away?
13 A. After that, some staff were taken away. On the 24th of April,
14 Dr. Aziz Torlak was taken away.
15 Q. Were you also taken away at some point?
16 A. I was taken away together with two of my colleagues on the 25th of
18 Q. Could you tell us how you were taken away? Were you taken from
19 the hospital?
20 A. That afternoon, around five, half past five, I don't remember
21 exactly, I was called to come to the gate of the hospital.
22 Q. Why were you called there?
23 A. Allegedly to give a statement of some sort.
24 Q. Who was at the gate of the hospital when you got there?
25 A. There were soldiers, guards, and one security man from the
2 Q. Did they say anything to you about what you should do?
3 A. Since I was wearing my work clothes, they told me to go back and
4 get dressed, to change.
5 Q. Did they tell you why?
6 A. They didn't say anything as to why, but I went back, changed, and
7 they told me that I'm going to -- that I was going to give a statement,
8 and then I would be taken back.
9 Q. Where were you taken?
10 A. We were taken directly outside the KP Dom. There were no
11 statements at all, nothing. They turned us over directly to the guard of
12 the KP Dom, which was a camp.
13 Q. You mentioned that you were not taken alone. Who else was taken
14 with you?
15 A. They took Enver Cemo, and Izet Causevic.
16 Q. Are you able to identify who took you there?
17 A. I'm not sure about their names, but there was -- one of them was
18 Banovic, nicknamed Bota, and one town policeman by the name of Mate. I
19 don't know his last name. We called him Mate.
20 Q. The person you identified --
21 A. And there was one other man whom I didn't know.
22 Q. The person you identified by the nickname Bota, what was his --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What was his position, or what kind of uniform was he wearing?
25 A. Both of them wore military uniforms.
1 Q. Mr. Cemo and Mr. Causevic are of what ethnicity?
2 A. Bosniaks, the same as I.
3 Q. Do you know whether any Serb hospital personnel were allowed to
4 continue working?
5 A. Yes. They went to work regularly.
6 Q. Was that even after your arrest?
7 A. They worked even after my arrest, and even some Bosniak staff
8 continued to work after my arrest. I don't know for how long because I
9 was away. I had already been taken into custody.
10 Q. And to return just very briefly to the person named Bota, did you
11 ever hear what happened to him later?
12 A. I was going to say something more about what happened to the
13 wounded people who arrived at the hospital from the town.
14 Q. What did you want to say about them?
15 A. I wanted to say that those wounded people from Foca were taken
16 care of. They were very seriously wounded. Some of them underwent
17 surgery, and two persons, when the hospital had already been taken over,
18 were taken away to Sarajevo by the Medicins Sans Frontieres for maxial
19 facial surgery. And Nikola Koljevic accompanied those Medicins Sans
21 Q. What time period are you referring to?
22 A. That was the period when wounded people were coming in from Foca
23 and Visegrad, the period before the takeover of the hospital.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness. Regarding Bota, could you tell us if you
25 heard what happened to him later?
1 A. I heard when we were in that camp, we were being classified into
2 work groups according to our skills. There was a construction work group,
3 there was a group of craftsmen, mechanics, and drivers. The mechanics,
4 locksmiths, and electricians were engaged in the dissembling of
5 construction machinery in the town, and those machines were brought to a
6 place above our quarters beneath an awning.
7 Q. Witness, perhaps you didn't understand my question. You
8 identified one of the men who took you to KP Dom by the name Banovic with
9 the nickname Bota. Did you ever hear what happened to him?
10 A. In relation to these men, those who went out to work in the
11 construction group, we found out that Bota -- or, rather, that Milorad
12 Krnojelac's sons, the warden's sons, were wounded somewhere around
13 Tjentiste, that they ran into a minefield.
14 Q. And was Bota also involved in the vehicle that ran over the
16 A. Allegedly, yes. Bota and one or two of the warden's sons. I
17 don't know for sure, but that is the piece of news that went through the
19 Q. Now, when you arrived at the KP Dom, where were you taken?
20 A. When I arrived in the KP Dom, they put me in a transit room, and
21 those two who came with me, too, Cemo and Causevic.
22 Q. What room was that?
23 A. Room 12.
24 Q. How long were you kept in Room 12?
25 A. Until I got out. Until the 30th of August, 1992.
1 Q. During your time at KP Dom, were you ever interrogated?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When was that?
4 A. I can't remember the date of interrogation because first I was
5 interrogated by Koprivica nicknamed Kopi, I can't remember his first
7 Q. Did you make a statement at that time?
8 A. I gave part of the statement, and then a huge man walked in. He
9 was in military uniform, or rather, his trousers belonged to a military
10 uniform, and he also had a shirt with short sleeves, and then they talked,
11 and then the whole thing was interrupted and he told me that it would be
12 continued the next day.
13 Q. Was it continued?
14 A. However, it was not continued. Perhaps 15 days went by.
15 Q. What happened after 15 days?
16 A. After 15 days, I was called in for an interrogation, and I was
17 interrogated by Zoran Vladicic.
18 Q. Did you sign a statement at that time?
19 A. I did sign this statement about him interrogating me.
20 Q. Did you sign a statement during the interrogation?
21 A. Well, during the interrogation. He was interrogating me, and
22 there was this statement, and he offered it to me, and I signed it.
23 Q. Were you threatened?
24 A. I tried to read the statement. He didn't let me. He said to me,
25 "Do you want me to write that, `I killed ten persons?'"
1 Q. He wanted -- he threatened that he would write down that you
2 killed ten persons?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What did you do when he said that?
5 A. I said you can do whatever you want, but my conscience is clear.
6 I said, you can check with my colleagues. From the 10th till the 20th, or
7 rather, 25th of April, I never left the hospital.
8 Q. Did you sign the statement then?
9 A. I did sign the statement, and he accused me of being commander of
10 a medical corps squad. I said to him that I'm not even a military
11 conscript, as I was not. It is true that I was a commander of a military
12 squad at the time when I did my military service.
13 Q. How many years ago was that?
14 A. You mean when I did my military service? I did my military
15 service in 1950.
16 Q. Sir, while you were detained at the KP Dom, were you ever beaten?
17 A. They did not beat me physically, but there was terrible torture
18 during the interrogation. It would have been easier for me to have been
19 beaten than to have been insulted that way.
20 Q. Could you tell us what you mean by the torture during the
22 A. Provocative questions. They were saying things that were
23 impossible, that I had weapons, that I was an organiser of the
24 resistance. Since I was an old man, I did not -- I could not have been
25 involved in anything like that, nor were there any grounds for that. And
1 I was at my working place all the time when all of that was happening.
2 Q. How did that make you feel, the way you were treated?
3 A. Well, I felt that the worst would happen, that there would be
4 beatings. At one moment, I almost felt sick.
5 Q. Do you know if other detainees were beaten?
6 A. Other detainees will say. I did not see that, so I cannot
7 maintain that.
8 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of people being beaten?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When would you hear the sounds?
11 A. Not during the day, but during the night when they took them out
12 after this tragedy that occurred with Krnojelac's son and Bota, we were
13 all terribly afraid. Sometime in mid-June, people were taken out during
14 the night, five or four persons at a time. Screams could be heard,
15 yelling, and footsteps in the part of the administration building.
16 Q. Are you able to identify people who were taken out and beaten in
17 this way?
18 A. I can identify quite a few such persons because seven were taken
19 out of the room that I was in. I can mention the names and surnames of
20 these persons.
21 Q. Please tell us.
22 A. Kuloglija Mustafa was taken out among the first. Husein Rikalo.
23 His brother, Necko Rikalo, Meho Pasovic, Nurko Niksic, Salem Bico, Amer
25 Q. Perhaps I'll just go back --
1 A. And from other rooms, other people were taken. In the morning
2 when we would go to breakfast, in front of Room 12, some of the people I
3 knew did not show up. Among others, there was Zulfo Veiz, a policeman;
4 Dzano Vahida, a policeman; Munib Veiz, a sales person; Adnan Granov,
5 Abdurahman Cankusic, Refik Cankusic, nicknamed Pepi. These were two
6 brothers, the two Soro brothers, Suljo and Seval, and Alija Altoka, Nail
7 Hodzic, Ramo Dzendusic, and I could not mention everyone now. While all
8 of this was fresh in my memory, I wrote all of them down, so perhaps I
9 would need that to refresh my memory. My memory is the way it is after
10 nine years, after all.
11 Q. When did you prepare the list?
12 A. Just after I got out of prison while my memory was still fresh.
13 Q. Why did you make a list of these people?
14 A. Well, since I got out of prison, I thought that members of their
15 families would ask them -- ask me where they were and what happened to
16 them. I did not think that this would happen.
17 Q. You didn't think what would happen?
18 A. Trial, testimony.
19 Q. On what basis did you compile your list? Did you say it was just
20 from your memory because your memory was still fresh?
21 A. The basis of my memory, and also there were a few of us who got
22 out of prison, and then we talked. It was a longish list, some 35, 36
23 men, because 35 of us were set free.
24 Q. What year was that when you compiled the list?
25 A. 1992.
1 MS. KUO: Your Honours, --
2 A. The month of September.
3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, we would like to have the witness shown
4 this list which is marked ID 299. The English version is ID 299/A.
5 Q. Witness, I will not ask you specific questions about what's on the
6 list, but just ask you to identify that in fact you prepared that list.
7 A. Yes. Yes, I stand by this.
8 Q. And you said one of the reasons you prepared the list was in case
9 family members of those people asked you about them. Did, in fact, family
10 members approach you and ask about the people who are on your list?
11 A. Yes. I have close relatives on this list, too.
12 Q. Were the family members -- let me ask it to you this way: Do you
13 know if any of these people were ever seen again after they disappeared
14 from the KP Dom?
15 A. Not a single one of them has ever been seen since. In addition to
16 this, I will mention some bigger groups. I can even remember some of the
18 Q. We'll get to that if a few moments.
19 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the Prosecution wishes to enter into
20 evidence exhibit -- ID 299 and 299/A as Prosecution Exhibit P299 and
22 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection, Mr. Bakrac?
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. They will be Exhibits P299 and P299/A.
25 Do they need to be under seal?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 MS. KUO: Your Honours, and also for the Court's convenience,
4 we've prepared what we have marked as -- it's not in the trial binders,
5 but it should be ID 299/A/1 which is an annotated copies, annotated
7 of the list. So it will have on it the schedule references where these
8 names appear. We've given a copy to Defence counsel.
9 JUDGE HUNT: That would be very helpful. Is there any objection
10 to it, Mr. Bakrac?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know until we
12 get a copy. As far as I understood it, we haven't got a copy of that that
13 is being mentioned just now. What my learned friend is referring to now
14 is, is it ...
15 JUDGE HUNT: It's 299/A/1.
16 MS. KUO: It's actually the -- it's the English version of 299,
17 and it has been annotated with just handwritten numbers next to the names,
18 for instance, C-19 or B whatever.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Except that we
20 haven't got 299/A. We have A/1, but we haven't got 299/A.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I suspect that 299/A/1 is a copy of 299/A with the
22 handwriting on it. That's the way Ms. Kuo has described it. Is that
23 right, Ms. Kuo?
24 MS. KUO: Yes, precisely.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, then we have no
1 objections to this.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit P299/A/1.
3 MS. KUO:
4 Q. Witness, the list that you -- that we've referred to that is now
5 299, you've given it the title "The list of people taken away in groups
6 from Foca KP Dom in the period between 26 June, 1992, and 15 July 1992."
7 Of the people on the list, do you know whether any of them were beaten?
8 A. It is these people. They were beaten in that interval. I
9 remember that well. Literally, we were coming back from dinner. I'm
10 going to tell you about a particular case, chronologically. Niksic, Nurko
11 and Konjo Halim were coming back from dinner, and the guard Obrenovic said
12 that they should report to the administration, and they reported. We went
13 to the room. Since both of them were from my room, I became restless. I
14 was really concerned.
15 Late in the evening, between 9.00 and 10.00, I went up to the
16 window because from Room 12, I could not see the exit through the
17 administrative building. I just heard a scream. I just heard screams and
18 yelling. They were shouting at the top of their lungs. Somebody called
19 out, "Nurko" in a really loud voice twice, "Nurko, Nurko." And then there
20 was no sound after that.
21 Perhaps about half an hour, an hour later a shot, a pistol shot
22 rang out, tuk-tuk-tuk-tuk. That meant that it wasn't only the two of
23 them. That's how it ended, that particular evening. They never
24 appeared again in the compound in any room, let alone our room.
25 Q. How many shots did you hear?
1 A. Five.
2 Q. After those five shots, did you hear anything else?
3 A. A car was heard several times, several evenings. It had a problem
4 with the exhaust pipe. It had a special sound. Whenever it came to the
5 prison, to the camp, people would disappear. I cannot tell you
6 chronologically now who these people were because there was such great
7 fear and anxiety as to who would be next. Usually the guard would come to
8 the door and call out some names, and then they would take them to the
9 administration building, and then we could no longer see them. I couldn't
10 see. I can't talk about others, what they could see and what they could
11 not see.
12 Q. Could you tell what direction the car with the broken exhaust pipe
13 was going after those five shots that night?
14 A. Towards town. We couldn't see, but towards town; or towards the
15 bridge, or towards town. Because the exit facing the bridge was 40 or 50
16 metres lower, and the other one was bigger, the one facing town, that is.
17 Q. Was it still daylight or was it already nighttime when the car
18 came and left?
19 A. Nighttime, nighttime invariably. Never during the day.
20 Q. Do you remember what date that was when Nurko Niksic and Halim
21 Konjo disappeared?
22 A. I can't remember the date, but it was sometime around mid-June.
23 Not only them, all of those who are listed here, over 35 names, that is,
24 in various intervals. Sometimes it would be one or two days, and then a
25 break, and then again.
1 Q. You said the guard Obrenovic called out Nurko Niksic and Halim
2 Konjo. Do you know his first name?
3 A. Obren was his nickname, and to tell you the truth, I wouldn't know
4 his real name. A big man, really big.
5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, there is a guard by the name of Dragomir
6 Obrenovic on Exhibit P3 at number 46.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 MS. KUO:
9 Q. Before that last time when you saw Nurko Niksic, did you see him
10 come back from being beaten, with injuries?
11 A. Yes. Once before he was taken out for an interrogation. He was
12 returned to the same room. Dr. Torlak was among us, and also Dr. Ibro
13 Karovic. We wrapped him in wet sheets. For two or three days he couldn't
14 go out for breakfast and lunch. We had to bring his meals to the room.
15 Then he got better, and then in about ten or 15 days, what I
16 talked about previously happened.
17 Q. Could you describe the injuries that Nurko Niksic had when you saw
18 him return to your room?
19 A. He was black and blue all over his body, on his chest, legs, arms,
20 and his face.
21 Q. Do you know if Mr. --
22 A. Haematoma.
23 Q. Witness, do you know if Dr. Aziz Torlak himself was ever beaten at
24 the KP Dom?
25 A. Aziz Torlak? On one occasion since we had worked together, he
1 complained to me. Somebody asked him for the key to his car. His car was
2 at the hospital. They took his car away, and he was -- he had been cut a
3 bit up here. He just showed this to me, and then he hid it again very
5 Q. When you say --
6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I had my head down when he indicated
7 that. Where did he indicate?
8 MS. KUO:
9 Q. Witness, when you said he had a cut here, you indicated the neck
10 area; is that right?
11 A. A bit of his neck, over here, a bit of his neck, a small cut, very
12 small cut. He came to give his car keys. He had a new Golf.
13 Q. Who did Dr. Torlak say cut him on the neck?
14 A. He didn't want to tell me. He said if we managed to survive,
15 people will know. He was afraid.
16 Q. Did he tell you whether it was a prison staff, like a guard, or
17 was it a soldier, or somebody from the outside?
18 A. Not somebody from the prison staff, somebody from the outside.
19 Q. But was this during the time when he was detained at the KP Dom?
20 A. He was detained at the KP Dom, yes. And we were together in this
21 transit Room 12.
22 Q. My question was specifically about when he received the injury.
23 Did he receive the injury while he was at KP Dom, or before he was brought
25 A. While he was at the KP Dom.
1 Q. Did you see injuries on any other detainees?
2 A. I did. I did see injuries. On Enes Uzunovic.
3 Q. What injuries did --
4 A. Izet Causevic, Hajro Sabanovic, Avdo Mehmedspahic.
5 Q. What --
6 A. And, and Salko Mandzo.
7 Q. What injuries did you see on Mr. Uzunovic?
8 A. Enes Uzunovic, he had bruises all over his body.
9 Q. Did he tell you how he got them?
10 A. He didn't say. He didn't dare talk about it. He just waved his
12 Q. But did he sustain the injuries while he was at KP Dom?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Enes Uzunovic is listed in the indictment
15 at paragraph 5.29.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. KUO: As well as on Schedule C, number 26.
18 Q. And Witness, what kind of injuries did you see on Izet Causevic?
19 A. There were bruises on his face.
20 Q. How did he sustain those?
21 A. At the interrogation, when he was interrogated he sustained those
23 Q. Was that also at KP Dom?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What injuries did you see on Hajro Sabanovic?
1 A. Bruises all over his body. He sustained those on his -- upon his
2 arrival at the camp.
3 Q. How do you know that?
4 A. He was lying in my room.
5 Q. Did he tell you who beat him?
6 A. Burilo -- what's his name? I don't remember. He was nicknamed
8 Q. Was that a guard?
9 A. Yes. He was a guard at the KP Dom, a full-time employee.
10 MS. KUO: Your Honours, the incident with Hajro Sabanovic is in
11 the indictment, paragraph 5.23, and there is a guard named Burilo -- we're
12 looking for the specific reference to the guard Burilo, but I think he's
13 been mentioned several times before.
14 JUDGE HUNT: He certainly has. But we've got the exhibit number,
15 too, haven't we, anyway, on the record here.
16 MS. KUO: He's number 56.
17 JUDGE HUNT: 56, thank you.
18 MS. KUO:
19 Q. Witness, what injuries did you see on Avdo Mehmedspahic?
20 A. Avdo Mehmedspahic worked at the pharmacy, and for a long time he
21 hid in his apartment. And when he asked to get out, to be released at the
22 end of June, instead of that he was brought to the prison, and he was
23 beaten up. He told me that he never knew who was beating him. He just
24 lost a tooth, and he couldn't even eat a slice of bread. And for two or
25 three days, he was unable to go to eat. He lay in his room until he
1 recovered. He was also in my room. And he said at the end when he came
2 to, that this same Burilo gave him a glass of brandy to come round, and
3 said that nobody would touch him again. That's what he said.
4 Q. Did Mr. Mehmedspahic say that Burilo beat him as well?
5 A. He didn't say anything about who beat him. Maybe he didn't dare.
6 MS. KUO: Your Honours, Mr. Avdo Mehmedspahic is listed in
7 Schedule B at number 40.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
9 MS. KUO:
10 Q. And finally, Salko Mandzo, what injuries did you see him with?
11 A. On Salko Mandzo when he was being taken away, I saw a cut next to
12 his eye, a cut made with a sharp object. And when he was brought back to
13 our room, they didn't let him stay there. A guard stood by waiting for
14 him until he collected his things, and he was immediately taken to another
15 room lest he told us who had done it and what had happened.
16 Q. Just to clarify, Witness, you said when -- that you saw this cut
17 on Mr. Mandzo when he was being taken away. Do you know how he received
18 that cut? Had he been taken out already, received the cut, and then came
20 A. He came back with that cut. He didn't tell us how he sustained it
21 because he had no time. The guard stood by in the room while he collected
22 his things, and he was taken to another room.
23 MS. KUO: Your Honour, Salko Mandzo is listed in the indictment at
24 paragraph 5.28.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 MS. KUO:
2 Q. Were detainees kept in solitary confinement; do you know?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know why they would be put there?
5 A. When people were brought to the prison, the prison authorities
6 logged them up according to some categorisation of their own and
7 according to people's conduct in the prison itself. If somebody, for
8 instance, queued twice for lunch to take two meals, they would be put into
9 solitary confinement, too.
10 Q. Did you ever hear people being beaten in the solitary confinement
12 A. In the part where I was, I wasn't close to solitary cells and I
13 couldn't hear it, whereas in other parts of the quarters, other inmates
14 said they could hear and that there were beatings. And one more thing, if
15 I may say, there were not enough solitary cells, so the prisoners
16 themselves built additional solitary cells to increase their number.
17 Q. When you say the prisoners themselves built it, was it on the
18 order of the KP Dom administration?
19 A. On the order of the KP Dom administration, and house painting
20 works were done by Fehim Dedovic and other works were done by Salcinovic,
22 Q. You mentioned at the beginning of your testimony that there were
23 several work groups formed. When you ever a part of those work groups?
24 A. No. Only once did I go to unload something. That happened only
25 once, because I was an elderly man and they always chose younger people,
1 stronger people.
2 Q. Where did you unload things?
3 A. I unloaded some foodstuffs at Mose Pijade street at a building
4 called Brena together with another inmate by the name of Zuko Sefkija.
5 Q. Who took you to unload the foodstuffs?
6 A. We were taken out by a guard, and there we found one uniformed
7 man, and in the vehicle there was the same town policeman by the name of
9 Q. When you say a uniformed man, what kind of uniform was he wearing?
10 A. It was a military camouflage uniform.
11 Q. Do you know for whom that foodstuff was meant?
12 A. We unloaded that food into a shop. We didn't load anything, we
13 just unloaded the food. I don't know where it came from.
14 Q. Did you have a choice about whether to go do this?
15 A. No. A guard came and called our names out.
16 Q. Approximately when was this?
17 A. That was sometime in June. I don't remember the date.
18 Q. Witness, you mentioned that when people were taken out of the
19 rooms, many of them disappeared. When they were taken out, were they told
20 where they were being taken?
21 A. The people who were taken out during the night, somebody would
22 come to the door and call out their names. They were taken to the
23 administration building and screams and yelling were heard, and those
24 people were never seen again. Those are the people from this list that I
25 mentioned. In other groups -- or perhaps you wanted to ask something
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. No. Go on, you said, "In other groups."
3 A. On one occasion, sometime in June, a large group of prisoners was
4 put together and taken out. They told us when they came back about where
5 they had been. There had been women and children. They were taken to the
6 road towards Pljevlja near Cajnice. There was some kind of British
7 mission there, and some sort of fake exchange for Serbian soldiers had
8 been organised. However, this group of people just spent the night and
9 came back. The exchange didn't take place. They didn't know the reason
10 why, and none of us knew it, either.
11 Q. Were there other people taken out for exchange who actually did
12 not return?
13 A. As for other people, I remember another group. On the 25th of
14 August, that group was taken out sometime in the afternoon, and there were
15 18 people, as far as I could count. And on the 27th of August, another 20
16 men were taken out, as far as I could see - I could only see their heads
17 over the wall - and before they left, they were lined up in the hallway.
18 I can remember some names. I don't remember how many of them
19 there were, 34, 5, or 6. Among them were Saban Durak, Hajro Sabanovic,
20 Enver Sabanovic, Zaim Rikalo. A man called Culup [phoen], I don't
21 remember his name. Mumin Kameric, Dejro Cankusic, and Esad Soro, a
22 brother of Hadzi Mesic. I remember those people from those two groups.
23 Those people left carrying their things, and they had told us they were
24 going for an exchange. It's been nine years now, and I have never heard of
25 any of them, and I never heard that any of them had reappeared.
1 The next group was a large one, and I was in that group. We were
2 informed that people over 60 and people with some sort of a health problem
3 and underage persons were in it. They made a list of 55 persons. It was
4 on the 29th of August.
5 They took us out to the dining room, a large room, and we spent
6 there several hours until dark. Then there was some sort of commotion and
7 transfer from that part of the building which was nearer to the hospital.
8 Rooms 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15, all of these rooms were transferred to the
9 other side. And the group of people, whom I didn't manage to count
10 because it was dark already, was taken to the gate towards the
11 administration building. I don't remember how many there were. I
12 remember only one man who had been in solitary confinement. His name was
13 Sahmanovic, and his nickname name was Ace. He was running across the
14 compound wearing a wind breaker, and he waved to us standing in the dining
15 room: "Here I go, I'm leaving before you."
16 We kept waiting in that room. We didn't leave that night.
17 Instead, we were taken back to the transit Room 12, all 55 of us, and we
18 spent the entire night there. Some people got their 40 winks, and then in
19 the other -- the next morning, a bus came. We all filed out to the
20 courtyard. We boarded the bus, and we set off. We didn't know where. We
21 received no papers, nothing. We didn't know whether we were being
22 released or not.
23 In front of the administration building there was Savo Todovic.
24 He was standing there. Some people from downtown had come, Pasovic's
25 father-in-law, for instance, came to say good-bye.
1 At the bus station we stopped, and citizens were standing there
2 waiting, including citizens of Serb ethnicity. Some had brought some
3 food, bread. Some people even brought a bottle of spirits. Nobody
4 entered the buses. Then we went on towards Brod, Scepan Polje, making
6 Q. Witness, let me just interrupt you there. When you -- when all 55
7 of you were put on the bus, were you exchanged immediately, or were you
8 brought back to KP Dom later that same day, on the 30th of August?
9 A. We were not exchanged. There was no exchange. We travelled to
10 Niksic, and Pero Elez and Dragan Gagovic intercepted us just outside
11 Niksic, some ten kilometres before Niksic, and they sent us back. We
12 didn't know what was going on.
13 Q. Let me stop you.
14 A. We were --
15 Q. Who was Dragan Gagovic? Do you know what his official position
17 A. He was the commander of the police station in Foca.
18 Q. When you were returned to the KP Dom that day --
19 A. Yes. Yes, they took us back there.
20 Q. -- were some of the group of 55 separated from each other?
21 A. When they took us back, we waited for a long time at Scepan
22 Polje. We didn't know what was going on. We were all afraid. When we
23 arrived at the KP Dom, everyone was surprised, including the guards. What
24 is this? They took us somewhere, to some room where we had something to
25 eat, and they took us all to Room 11. There were not enough beds because
1 of that transfer which preceded our departure, so we put beds together two
2 by two and we asked for some blankets. However, nothing came of it.
3 We stayed for only about half an hour. I stood by the door and I
4 was wondering whether they were going to give us those blankets. Then a
5 guard came and called out ten names. Those people picked up their things
6 and left. Then another half an hour later, another ten names were called
7 out, and the guard told these people to pick up their things and follow
9 Where these people left, we have no clue. I never heard that any
10 one of them was ever heard of again. And I can give you some names, the
11 names I remember.
12 Q. What distinguished those 20 people from the 35 that were not
13 called out in that way?
14 A. I don't know. I don't know what was the reason. There was only
15 one elderly man among them. The rest of them were younger people.
16 Q. And of the 35 who were not called out, were those younger or older
18 A. Well, most of them were elderly, frail people.
19 Q. If you remember the names --
20 A. Including myself.
21 Q. If you've remembered the names of those 20 who were called out and
22 you never heard from them again, could you please give them to us?
23 A. Well, if you allow me, I have it written on a piece of paper.
24 There are about 13 names. I cannot tell you who they are by heart.
25 There was Izet Causevic; he was an arts teacher. Asim Mujic, a
1 lawyer. He usually distributed food at the kitchen. Murat Granov,
2 Mezbur Rasim and his brother. Maja Blacevic, Nedzib Lojo, Ismet Pasovic
3 and his cousin nicknamed Pace, Ibro Ovcina.
4 Q. Witness --
5 A. I cannot remember all the names. It's been a long time. I have
6 it all written down. None of those people were ever seen or heard of
7 again, not that I know of.
8 Q. Witness, the piece of paper that you mentioned where you wrote
9 these names down, when did you write the names down?
10 A. When I left. In fact, when the 35 of us were taken out again, we
11 took the same road again, but first they took us back to Velecevo where
12 some sort of command was based. They took us there for some sort of
13 checkup, and then they took us along the same road to Montenegro, and then
14 we reached Podgorica which was earlier called Titograd, around 1.00 or
15 2.00. Around 5.00, we reached Rozaje. There were no papers given to us.
16 A guard just said, "You are free to go. There are other refugees here.
17 Do what you want." And the group of about 20 of us went to Murhamet, the
18 Muslim charity organisation, and the Red Cross. They couldn't admit us,
19 but they transferred us by bus to some sort of collection centre in
20 Krajcinovic Banja, and that's where we stayed.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, could you tell us, when did you write down the
22 names on that piece of paper? That was the question. How long after this
23 release did you write down those names on the piece of paper?
24 A. I wrote that down when I returned to Bosnia in 1995, and I had
25 already forgotten some names during -- by the time that I gave my
1 statements to investigators.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Did you write them down in 1995 at about the same
3 time that you spoke to the investigators?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, Ms. Kuo, I think we might come back
6 to that in the morning. I want to raise an issue about this motion that
7 we've received. Is this your matter or is it Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's?
8 MS. KUO: I can handle it, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I just wanted to know whose it was, first of
10 all. Have you spoken to the Defence about it?
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think I will handle it. I will handle it.
12 We have spoken about it, and it is not a problem. They received this
13 morning, they received the documents that we have on this witness, and we
14 do not have much. It's just the Bosnian statement and one little memo
15 about the telephone conversation. And as far as I understood, Mr. Bakrac,
16 they agree to have this person testify and have enough time to prepare for
17 the date that is proposed.
18 JUDGE HUNT: That is during the week of the 2nd of April. Is that
19 so, Mr. Bakrac?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
21 However, the Defence suggested that we could hear the witness even this
22 week if the Office of the Prosecutor managed to bring him.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'll see what the Prosecution can do. Have
24 you got any objection to the -- other than the usual objection, to the
25 protective measures sought?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The usual objection
2 of this Defence stands.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then those protective measures will be granted,
6 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. I don't think we need to enter a formal order because
7 we've done it orally.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Now if you can bring the witness along, whenever you
10 can get the witness along.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Actually I was mistaken when I discussed the
12 matter with Mr. Bakrac. I thought this witness was actually coming
13 tomorrow, tomorrow evening, and he could be on the stand on Thursday. But
14 this witness is actually coming only on Wednesday evening, and of course,
15 we have to talk with him first because we do not want to hear his entire
16 story, but some very focussed matters.
17 JUDGE HUNT: We'd be very grateful?
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And that's why we would like to have a
19 discussion with him first.
20 JUDGE HUNT: We would be very grateful if you could focus every
21 witness's evidence. Very well, we'll adjourn now until 9.30 tomorrow.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.01 p.m., to
23 be reconvened on Tuesday the 27th day of January,
24 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.