1 Tuesday, 27 March 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: I thought we had finished with this witness.
10 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HUNT: All right, then. Please proceed.
12 MS. KUO: Thank you
13 WITNESS: FWS-172 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]
16 Q. Witness just before we broke yesterday we were discussing this
17 piece of paper where you had written the names of people who were taken
18 away and disappeared. The last question that was asked by the presiding
19 judge was regarding whether this was prepared when you were being
20 questioned by an investigator. Do you remember that?
21 A. I prepared that list just after I got out of prison. I repeat, in
22 order to be able to prove ...
23 JUDGE HUNT: Wait a minute. Excuse me, sir. We have a technical
25 Can you hear us now? Right. Well, you did not get any of the
1 answer, I think, so perhaps, Ms. Kuo, you could ask the witness to repeat
2 his answer.
3 MS. KUO:
4 Q. Witness, because of a technical problem we were not able to record
5 your answer. Can you just repeat it?
6 A. Yes. Just after I was released while my memory was still fresh,
7 in relation to the people who were taken out during the night, beaten up,
8 and who were never returned to our rooms, I made a list of these people
9 and I handed over that list with their names to the investigators.
10 Q. Now, Witness, we did see this typewritten list yesterday, but
11 later in your testimony you refer to people who were taken away at the end
12 of August, the 25th, the 27th, and then also the 30th of August. Did you
13 prepare a separate list for that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you prepare that list? Was it also immediately after
16 your release?
17 A. No. I did not prepare that list. I dictated that list during the
18 investigations, to the best of my memory.
19 Q. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have this witness
20 shown ID 301.
21 What is that, Witness? Is that the list that you have been
22 referring to, that you dictated?
23 A. Yes. This list in the first part relates to people who were taken
24 out in larger groups, about 18 or 20, in two parts. One group was taken
25 out on the 25th of August, and the other one on the 27th of August. I
1 cannot exactly distinguish between these people who was taken out in which
2 group, that is, because quite a bit of time has gone by, so I can't tell
4 Q. Witness, yesterday you gave us the names of some of those people.
5 Does looking at this list which -- does looking at this list refresh your
6 memory as to any other people who were taken out during that time?
7 A. Right now, I cannot remember any more people except for these who
8 are mentioned here. This other part of the list relates to people who
9 were taken out between the 30th and 31st of August because we were also
10 taken out on the 29th and we spent the night --
11 Q. Witness, please.
12 A. -- in the compound.
13 Q. Please, let's just concentrate on the 25th and the 27th. My
14 question was -- you mentioned yesterday several people taken out during
15 that time, and you told us that you could not remember any other people
16 unless you looked at the list. The list is before you now. Could you
17 tell us now, in addition to the people you mentioned yesterday, were there
18 other people that were taken out those two days, the 25th and 27th of
19 August. Now that you've looked at the list, can you tell us from the
20 list any other people?
21 A. I can't remember any more names except for those that I've
22 already listed, in those two days.
23 Q. The people that you've written down on this list -- this is your
24 handwriting, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How many names are on the list for the 25th and 27th, written
3 A. Between 36 and 40, approximately. Not only here in terms of what
4 I did, but those are the ones that I counted as they got out during those
5 two days.
6 Q. The exhibit -- I'm sorry, not the exhibit, the piece of paper
7 before you is a little bit difficult for someone to read who can't read
8 your handwriting. Could you just read it out to us, the names of the
9 people from the 25th and 27th of August?
10 A. Yes. The following were taken out: Munim Kameric, Dervo
11 Cankusic, Resko Hadzimesic, and his brother who is not entered here.
12 Serif Hadzic, Esad Sero and two of the Nukic brothers, I don't know their
13 names. Saban Durak, Zaim Rikalo, Hajro Sabanovic, Miralem Ramovic, Nusret
14 Salcinovic. He was taken out exactly on the 27th, I remember that. And I
15 remembered another one, Emsad Sabanovic. I remembered it just now because
16 there were two Sabanovics.
17 They were taken out on the 25th and the 27th of August, but I
18 cannot exactly distinguish between the two groups, who was taken out on
19 the 25th and who on the 26th, except for that one name I mentioned to you
21 Q. Witness, you also said there were 20 people taken out of the group
22 of 55, and those 20 people were primarily younger men, and that they
23 disappeared. Could you tell us their names now?
24 A. When we were in the mess hall in the restaurant where we ate, when
25 we waited there for a long time too see what would happen to us.
1 Q. Witness, please just answer the question. Give us the names.
2 We've already heard you yesterday tell us what happened. We just need the
3 names of the 20 people.
4 A. I can mention some, but not all of them. Out of the people who
5 were taken out with me in the direction of Niksic because I said already
6 that we did not get any papers or anything, we didn't know where we were
7 going to --
8 Q. Witness --
9 A. -- or what was going on. When they returned us --
10 Q. Witness, please. You have a piece of paper before you. Just tell
11 us the names on the paper of the 20 people. I know it's not complete,
12 but just read us the names.
13 JUDGE HUNT: And may I add to what counsel has said to you, sir,
14 we really only want you to answer the questions. We have a great deal of
15 evidence now from other sources about the matters of which you may want to
16 speak. We only want you to answer the questions that counsel asks of
17 you. We don't have time to hear all of this again.
18 A. Yes. The following were taken out: Asim Mujic, Karabegovic, a
19 taxi driver, Ismet Cemo, Ismet Pasovic, Sevko Hodzic, Emin Smajkan, Asim
20 Nesbur and his brother, a young man nicknamed Zuga, I can't remember his
21 real name. And then also a younger man Dudic, and a certain Mujo
22 Rizvanovic, and Granov Murat.
23 Those are the people who were taken out of our group in two
24 intervals, ten by ten. All trace has been lost of them. I never received
25 any information as to any one of these people still being alive.
1 Q. There's a second sheet to that paper and it appears there are more
2 names. Are those more of the people taken out at that same time? Please
3 turn the sheet over.
4 A. These other names relate to persons who have university degrees.
5 Mostly younger people. There are even more of them, but I just mentioned
6 some --
7 Q. Okay, well --
8 A. -- who are missing. They also haven't been heard from since.
9 Q. Were they taken out also in that group of 20, or is that a
10 separate group?
11 A. These are separate groups. I did not mention in this group that
12 these people were taken out. These people were taken out in separate
14 Q. The people on this second sheet that you said had university
15 degrees, when were they taken out?
16 A. Some were taken out during the night. Among those from the list
17 that I read out yesterday, and others were taken out later, perhaps. I'm
18 not sure. I cannot say exactly who was taken away when.
19 Q. All right. Well, we're done with that piece of paper, Witness.
20 You can put it away.
21 Witness, you mentioned that of the people that you described as
22 being missing, that you've never heard from them again, were you in a
23 position such that if they were still alive, you would either -- you would
24 know about it or have been contacted by them?
25 A. Yes. They were my acquaintances. They would have expressed
1 interest in me just as I expressed interest in them. However, I haven't
2 found out from any of their relatives or anyone that there's any hope that
3 they had survived.
4 Q. Witness, you gave a statement in 1992 and to the State Commission
5 for Gathering Facts on War Crimes, and according to that statement it
6 says, in describing a group that was taken out on the 25th of June, 1992,
7 that "They may have been taken to Bileca to be court martialled there but
8 according to another version they were killed."
9 Q. Do you know why -- was there ever any mention of a court martial
10 in Bileca?
11 A. Court martials were dealt with over the radio. Whether it was in
12 Foca or Bileca I can't exactly say. To be quite frank with you, we had
13 smuggled in a small transistor radio, and on a news programme it was said
14 that a court martial had been established in the Crisis Staff in Foca. It
15 was headed by Boja, a lawyer; Milic, the judge; and also Skipnja, Cedo,
16 and Starevic. I can't remember this person's first name.
17 Q. Witness --
18 A. And also, a Stankovic. I also don't know his first name. I
19 didn't manage to register all of that.
20 Q. Witness, when people were taken out and you later never heard from
21 them, were they ever told that they were going to be court martialled in
23 A. Court martials were never referred to, only exchanges.
24 Q. Witness, could you tell us whether role call was taken at the
25 detention in the evening or in the morning?
1 A. These people who were taken out had their names read out from the
2 door by a guard, and then they had to leave. Every evening in the rooms
3 there was a role call, and the names of all of those who were present were
4 read out.
5 Q. Was this information given to the guards at KP Dom? Were they the
6 ones who took the role call?
7 A. Yes. The guards took the role call, and then they knew how many
8 of us spent the night in that room. If somebody went missing during the
9 night, the next day a new list was made out and then they would insert
10 various things in, who you were, what you did, et cetera. So names were
11 not repeated in these lists or during the role call.
12 Q. You said the next day a new list was made out. Who would make the
13 new list?
14 A. It was we who had remained in those rooms who made these lists.
15 Usually it was Ismet Causevic who did it. He was an art teacher, so he
16 had very nice handwriting, and he made the list usually.
17 Q. Did the detainees make the list on their own initiative in the
18 mornings after people, after people disappeared, or were you asked to do
19 that by the guards?
20 A. They asked the detainees to do it.
21 Q. Who is "they"?
22 A. The guards who were in the compound, or some of the guards -- or,
23 rather, employees from the administration.
24 Q. And you said that this was only -- was this true -- did this occur
25 only in the mornings after people were taken out and disappeared, or was
1 it every morning?
2 A. Only in the morning after people had been taken out during the
4 Q. So would these lists made in the morning show that, in fact,
5 people had disappeared at night, and who those people would be?
6 A. We only knew about the room that we were in, our room, but we
7 didn't have information about the other rooms.
8 Q. Did that -- was it true for your room, then, if people were taken
9 out from your room, that it would be clear reading the list in the morning
10 that certain people disappeared?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know who the warden of the KP Dom was when you were
13 detained there?
14 A. Yes. It was Milorad Krnojelac. Before that, he was employed in
15 the elementary school, Veselin Maslesa. He taught physics and
17 Q. Did you see Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom?
18 A. Yes, I saw him twice in the compound, in the afternoon, in
19 uniform. He was armed with a pistol. He didn't have any other weapons.
20 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?
21 A. What kind of uniform? A camouflage war uniform, when I saw him.
22 Q. Those two times when you saw him, what was he doing?
23 A. He was simply strolling around the compound. I don't know what
24 his exact assignment was.
25 Q. Do you know who the prior warden was?
1 A. The prior warden was Radojica Tesovic.
2 Q. Do you know why he was not warden during the time that you were
3 detained at KP Dom?
4 A. To tell you the truth, I cannot confirm that information because I
5 do not know why he was replaced and why the other one was appointed.
6 Q. Did any detainees who had come from Velecevo tell you that they
7 saw him there?
8 A. Yes. They told me that they saw him up there. Whether he was in
9 charge of that plant up there or not, he didn't know himself.
10 Q. Did the detainees tell you what they saw him doing there?
11 A. Since there was a farm up there, there were cows and hens, et
12 cetera, they saw him gathering eggs and packing them, I guess for selling
13 them later.
14 Q. Did you know Mitar Rasevic?
15 A. Yes, I did know Mitar Rasevic. He was Commander of the guards in
16 that camp.
17 Q. How do you know that he was Commander of the guards?
18 A. Once a piece of news leaked that an escape was being prepared from
19 the prison, that is. The commander of the guards came with two guards to
20 our room and he said as we talked, "We have some indications to the effect
21 that a getaway is being prepared." I personally laughed, and I answered
22 that question in the following way: "Where to? Out of these walls? There
23 are guards all around."
24 There were even two machine-guns from the administration building
25 that were facing the rooms where the detainees were. They were pointed at
1 us, and we could see them together with sandbags.
2 The next day there was an order, or whatever, that Uzeir
3 Hadzialic, also an inmate, a detainee, a locksmith, that he cut all the
4 bars on the windows in -- on the ground floor, or rather, that he welded
5 all the bars and the nets on the ground floor windows and on the
6 first-floor windows.
7 Q. Can you explain to us what you meant by that, that he welded these
8 bars? Did he put -- did he install bars so that detainees would not be
9 able to escape?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was that on order of the KP Dom administration?
12 A. It was on somebody's orders, and who else could it have been but
13 the administration.
14 Q. Were land mines also put in around this time?
15 A. A day or two went by, I can't remember well, but it is true that a
16 platoon of soldiers came and that they placed mines on all the lawns
17 within the compound and around it. This is proven by the fact that there
18 were explosions during the night. I don't know whether it was cats or
19 dogs that activated the mines. Even a guard or an employee at the KP Dom,
20 I'm not sure which one, was wounded, wounded in the leg. That's what we
21 found out.
22 Q. Could you -- do you remember when this was, when Mitar Rasevic
23 came and spoke to the detainees?
24 A. It never -- oh, Mitar, I'm sorry. I thought you meant somebody
25 else. Mitar, he talked before these bars on the windows were welded, and
1 also before mines were placed round the compound.
2 Q. Do you remember approximately what date or what month it was?
3 A. I cannot remember the date. I think it was the month of June,
5 Q. You mentioned that a piece of news had leaked about an attempted
6 escape. Could you tell us what that was?
7 A. As far as I know, before in peacetime, allegedly a prisoner
8 escaped from that prison through a small opening in the toilet that was
9 not sufficiently protected. That opening was in that transit room. And
10 in all fairness, it could be used for an escape because it was on the
11 ground floor, and one could jump out without getting hurt. And since
12 there was quite a bit of construction material up there, it was assumed
13 that planks could be put up, although it would involve casualties because,
14 of course, they would shoot, right? But then on the other hand, not every
15 bullet hits its target.
16 However --
17 Q. Witness, was there discussion among the detainees in your room
18 about how would could try to escape?
19 A. Well, this was not directly discussed. Everybody shrugged their
20 shoulders. It's hard. There were guards all around, at every corner.
21 And also, on the administration building where those weapons had been
22 placed, there was always a guard who was on duty by these weapons.
23 Q. Witness, what I'm interested in is the statement you made a few
24 minutes earlier that a piece of news leaked. What was that piece of
25 news? Did the detainees talk at some point about trying to escape, and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 that's why Mitar Rasevic came because he heard it or heard about it?
2 A. Well, this piece of news leaked about a day or two later, perhaps
3 after he came. Whether there was a bug, I don't know. Maybe they were
4 eavesdropping. Maybe some of the guards said it because he himself could
5 not make such an assumption.
6 Q. The guards would have heard the detainees talking about methods of
7 escape; is that what you mean?
8 A. If there was a bug, they could have heard it; if not, they
9 couldn't have. They couldn't have listened otherwise to our conversations
10 in that room.
11 Q. Witness, regarding Mr. Rasevic, I'd like to ask you about a
12 statement that you made in 1995 to the Security Services Centre in which
13 you said, "The duties of prison commander were performed by Mitar
14 Rasevic." Can you explain what you meant by that?
15 A. The warden was the person to whom all the employees in that camp
16 were subordinated, and Mitar Rasevic was commander of the guards. He
17 assigned duties.
18 Q. Let me ask you about medical care for the detainees. What kind of
19 medical care were the detainees able to obtain?
20 A. There were two doctors in that prison. One was a general
21 practitioner, a detainee, and another one was a surgeon, but they couldn't
22 perform any medical checkups on detainees. There used to come Cedo
23 Dragovic from the hospital. He was a gynaecologist by specialisation, and
24 detainees would come to him for medical checkups if they felt they needed
25 one, if they felt they needed medical assistance.
1 Q. Were you able to get the medical care that you needed?
2 A. One time I asked to be seen by a doctor, and since I knew Dr. Cedo
3 I went there. I had had a fever for several days. I asked him to give me
4 some medicine. He just shrugged his shoulders and looked at a guard who
5 was standing nearby, and he gave me a painkiller called Andol to lower my
6 temperature. And he advised me to drink as much fluid as possible.
7 However, I couldn't get much tea to drink because all the tea we got was
8 at breakfast and dinner.
9 Q. Were detainees who did not have acquaintances or connections from
10 the hospital, were they able to get medicines and things like that?
11 A. They went for checkups. They were seen by a doctor, but I don't
12 know what they received in terms of medication. I didn't see it, so I
13 cannot say. I swore before this court to speak the truth, and I'm
14 speaking the truth only.
15 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday you talked about some work groups.
16 Were there also some detainees taken to work at a fishpond in Jelec?
17 A. That fishpond was kept by the prison in peacetime, and then when
18 the occupation and military operation started, they were afraid that this
19 fishpond would run to seed. So a work group once went there to catch the
20 larger fish and put them up for sale at the market.
21 Q. When was that?
22 A. That was in end April or early May, perhaps.
23 Q. Do you know if work groups went to the fishpond later in the
24 summer, or was that the only time?
25 A. I don't know whether it was once or twice that they went there.
1 All I know from those who had been there is that they released the fish
2 into the rivers, Govza and another river.
3 Q. During the course of the summer, did any work groups go further to
4 catch fish or work at any fishponds as far as you know?
5 A. I don't know that they were catching or fishing. I know about
6 groups who went to unload flour from mills in Ustikolina.
7 Q. Witness, we don't need --
8 A. Also until before the end -- before mid-May.
9 Q. We don't need to hear about that any further; we have other
10 witnesses who have given us that evidence already.
11 Let me ask you about blood donations. Were detainees ever asked
12 to make blood donations, and if so, when?
13 A. Yes. I mentioned when I was speaking about the wounding of the
14 warden's sons in Bota during the explosion, a medical technician appeared
15 at the KP Dom on that day. He served under Bota, I believe, and he asked
16 whether anyone wanted to volunteer for donating blood. People gave a
17 large amount of blood. I believe there were 70 donors or so.
18 Q. You said that they asked for volunteers. Were the detainees
19 promised anything in return for giving blood?
20 A. I don't know whether they had been promised anything, but I do
21 know that they eventually received a pack of cigarettes and a small tin of
22 canned meat, perhaps 100 or 150 grams a can.
23 Q. How many times were people requested to give blood?
24 A. That lasted for a number of days. A team from the medical centre
25 was coming for several days running to take the blood.
1 Q. Did you give blood?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did a television crew ever come to the KP Dom, and if so, were
4 they allowed to speak with the detainees?
5 A. As far as I know, sometime in July, in the beginning of July, a
6 team of journalists came, and among them were some foreigners, and outside
7 Rooms 11 and 13 they stood without going in. They wanted to talk to us
8 detainees. There was Dr. Torlak in our room who spoke some English, and
9 there was a Gordan Mujicic, we called his Gordo, who spoke French well.
10 Standing at the window, we shouted, Gordo specifically shouted and
11 waved his hands, motioning the journalists to come closer, and the woman
12 who was an anchor in television - I know her because she was a teacher --
13 a pupil of my mother's, my mother was a teacher. Her last name was
14 Gigovic. She was Vesna Gigovic. She waved her hand and the guards
15 commander, Rasevic, came then and turned the team away. They didn't allow
16 them to come closer to our rooms and talk to us.
17 Q. Was this team, the TV crew, was it then a Yugoslav crew, or was it
18 a foreign crew, English speaking?
19 A. I don't know what language they spoke. We assumed that perhaps it
20 might be a foreign television crew, and therefore the people among us who
21 could speak foreign languages came forward. But I knew this one
22 journalist who worked in Novi Sad, and there was a crew from the Novi Sad
23 television station.
24 Q. Witness, during the more than four months that you were detained
25 at KP Dom, can you tell us how your health was affected?
1 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I weighed around 100 kilos, or
2 perhaps between 89 and 100 kilos, and after I was released, I lost -- I'd
3 lost 14 kilos. And I suffer from obstructive nephritis and I have to use
4 medication all the time, and I'm suffering from a strong spasm in that
5 area. That's as far as my health is concerned.
6 Q. Finally, can you tell us how this detention affected you
8 A. Well, I don't know how to explain it to you. When I was once
9 again among normal people, they seemed to look at me all the time. They
10 seemed to think I was too thin. It seems I'd lost a lot of weight,
11 perhaps, because I was resettled in a community where there had been no
12 military operations. Novi Pazar, Niksic, and that's where I spent the
13 rest of my time before returning to Sarajevo in 1995.
14 MS. KUO: Your Honours, those are the questions of the
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Vasic.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning to you, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. I am Milorad Vasic, one of the Defence counsel of the accused
23 Sir, during your examination-in-chief, you told us the address at
24 which you resided in Foca before the start of military operations. Can
25 you tell us which part of town it was where you lived? Will you just
1 please wait for the interpreters to interpret our question and then make a
2 pause before answering so that our participants can hear the
3 interpretation of my question and your answer properly.
4 A. May I?
5 Q. Yes, go ahead.
6 A. [redacted]
7 [redacted]. [redacted]
9 Q. Do you know that at the beginning of the conflict, some houses
10 owned by ethnic Serbs burnt down, including the house of Milorad
12 A. At that time I was still working, and I heard the news that some
13 buildings had burnt down not far away from the hospital, including some
14 houses near the health centre; but as far as Milorad Krnojelac's house is
15 concerned, I hadn't heard anything.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that after being away from work you came
17 back to the institution where you were employed. Did you see any road
18 blocks in Donje Polje at the time?
19 A. Because I was down there, I didn't see anything except for a
20 vehicle down there at the bridge. Whether it was a road block or just a
21 vehicle, I don't know.
22 Q. Were there any persons around the vehicle at the time?
23 A. From my side of this passage from the medical centre -- from my
24 house to the medical centre, no, there weren't any.
25 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you said that Serbian forces
1 walked in to the institution where you worked after a couple of days
2 because no resistance was offered?
3 A. No, there wasn't any resistance.
4 Q. Will you please wait a little for two reasons: For other people
5 to hear the interpretation, and second, your voice is protected and while
6 my microphone is turned on, there can be no voice distortion.
7 If you look at the monitor in front of you, you will be able to
8 follow --
9 A. There is nothing whatsoever on my monitor.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we're trying to enable
11 this voice distortion as far as we can.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Protect the witness.
14 JUDGE HUNT: We'll have it turned on for the transcript.
15 Now, sir, you'll see in front of you a transcript, and the Court
16 reporter here is typing the translation so that when the typing finishes
17 you know the translation has finished. So just wait until you see the
18 typing finish before you answer any question.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'll repeat my question. So you said during your
21 examination-in-chief that Serb forces, after a couple of days, walked into
22 the hospital because there was no resistance there. My question is, why
23 didn't they enter that institution earlier if, as you say, there was no
25 A. I cannot tell you the reason. Perhaps there was some protection,
1 some defence lines in the outer circle like the Mijakovici village. Maybe
2 they couldn't get in.
3 Q. Does it mean that in the wider area of Donje Polje there was
4 resistance on the part of ethnic Bosniaks and that is the reason why they
5 hadn't entered earlier?
6 A. People who had personal weapons may have tried to defend
7 themselves because they were in danger.
8 Q. Do you know that at the beginning of the conflict, in April of
9 1992, there were Muslim military units at the KP Dom for a while?
10 A. No, there weren't. That's for sure.
11 Q. Why are you so sure that they -- that there hadn't been any? Did
12 you have occasion to see the KP Dom and who occupied it before Serb forces
13 took over this part of Donje Polje?
14 A. You asked whether Muslim forces had been at the hospital, and I
15 maintain that there hadn't been any.
16 Q. I didn't ask you about the hospital. I said, is it true that in
17 April 1992, at the beginning of the conflict, there were Muslim forces at
18 the KP Dom?
19 A. In my statements I stated that I went to hospital, to the hospital
20 [redacted] on the 10th of April, and that from that time on I had no
21 information as to where anyone was, and I couldn't claim anything about
23 Q. Could you tell us how far is this hospital from the KP Dom?
24 A. 800 metres away, perhaps.
25 Q. While you were at the hospital, did you have opportunity to hear
1 about fighting taking place nearby?
2 A. Shooting could be heard, of course, and another proof of fighting
3 is the arrival of wounded people that I mentioned before.
4 Q. Yes, sir. It is true you stated in your examination-in-chief that
5 at that time, it was mainly civilians who were brought to the hospital.
6 Who except civilians was brought?
7 A. No one else after the hospital was taken over by occupying forces,
8 [redacted] the time. When the forces entered the hospital, I
9 can't say whether it was three or four days later, two uniformed persons
10 of Serbian ethnicity were brought. In fact, one of them was an ethnic
11 Hungarian, and he was an alcoholic, delirious at the time. And when I
12 talked to him he told me he was a professional soldier, that he had been
13 on the battlefield for eight years, that he had been on all front lines in
14 all the wars.
15 Another case that I remember was a younger man, a disabled man.
16 His right arm was missing. He was also armed. I was so afraid that I
17 didn't dare ask him even his name. I was afraid that something bad might
18 happen to me.
19 Q. Could you tell me, in which language did you speak to that ethnic
21 A. Our language, the Bosnian language, the Serbo-Croat. He could
22 speak it.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. During your examination-in-chief you mentioned
24 that soldiers had brought Mr. Salimovic and Mr. Cankusic to the hospital?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember the date when that happened?
2 A. I cannot say exactly whether it was the 17th or the 18th of April,
3 one of those two days for sure. And maybe ...
4 Q. You also said that Dr. Supic wanted to keep these persons in
5 hospital. Can you tell me what is Dr. Supic from an ethnic point of view?
6 A. He is a Serb, and he's a professional, and he carried out his
7 duties in a professional manner.
8 Q. You told us what regrettably happened to these persons, and you
9 said that you saw these persons while Dr. Zijo Ajanovic was identifying
10 the persons who were killed. Who were the persons that were then
11 identified by Dr. Ajanovic, do you know?
12 A. These persons, in addition to Cankusic and Selimovic, the ones I
13 mentioned are Isanovic, Delic, Sandal, and the one who was shot at in
14 front of the hospital who fell into the cemetery at Patkovina, Sejdin, a
15 younger man, and also Bostandzic. Those are the corpses that I personally
16 saw at the morgue.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, in the second statement you gave to the
18 investigators of the OTP in 1999, did you say that persons between the age
19 of 16 and 75 were arrested and taken to the KP Dom, and persons who did
20 not belong to a single political party or those who were very old or who
21 were not considered dangerous were allowed to stay at home? Is that what
22 you stated? Is that correct?
23 A. As far as I can remember, out of the detainees who arrived in the
24 camp, there were persons belonging to various groups, young, elderly,
25 there were some who were even older than I was, considerably older. As
1 for town, I did not realise whether there were any men left, whether there
2 was anyone except for women and children.
3 Q. Yes. But on page 2 of your statement from 1999 it says that you
4 stated the following. Would it help you if I read it out to you?
5 A. If there is such a piece of paper, I would like to see it, and I
6 would like to see what I said and where.
7 Q. That is document ID 298, and also 298A. The B/C/S version,
8 paragraph 3, second sentence: "Persons between the age of 16 and 75 were
9 arrested and taken to the KP Dom, while people who did not belong to a
10 single political party or those who were very old and not considered
11 dangerous were allowed to stay at home."
12 A. I know that a group of older people were released from prison at
13 the beginning of May. I don't know whether I mentioned all of that.
14 Among these persons are some survivors as well, but those persons had to
15 report every day to the SUP. That's the statement I made.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Was communication between detainees at the KP Dom
17 prohibited, and was it restricted to persons who were staying in the same
18 room only?
19 A. Communication among detainees in the KP Dom was prohibited. We
20 never got out of the rooms except for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. We
21 only communicated amongst ourselves in our rooms, except for the persons
22 who went out to work. They managed to have contacts.
23 Later, the persons from all rooms were taken to one room, that is
24 to say, persons who worked. They were all supposed to be together so
25 that they would not have any contacts with us.
1 Q. Is that your assumption, that they were separated into one room so
2 that they would not have contact with you, or do you know about that?
3 A. I know about that because persons from my room who worked were
4 taken to this separate room, and they could be seen.
5 Q. Weren't people who worked singled out and put into one room so
6 that they would be concentrated all in one place, not so that they would
7 be isolated from contact with other detainees?
8 A. Both, because those who went out, they could get information from
9 citizens, other citizens outside, and they could convey this information
10 to us. That's what they were afraid of.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, until the 15th of May, 1992,
12 were visits allowed by family members to detainees at the KP Dom?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were detainees allowed to receive clothes and food?
15 A. Clothes, yes, but under strict control rules -- food with strict
17 Q. You mean provided that there was strict control over what was
19 A. Yes, strict control. Not in the rooms. Detainees were taken out
20 to a special separate room for that by the entrance into the
21 administration building, and not in larger groups or anything. The
22 maximum was two detainees, and the family members who came to visit them,
23 and this was once in 15 days.
24 Q. Were these rooms for visits?
25 A. As for the person -- as for the purpose, well, this was just a
1 room on the right-hand side when you enter the hallway.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. You're welcome.
4 Q. Tell me, while you were at the KP Dom, did you take showers?
5 A. In four months while I was there, we had only three organised
6 baths, only three.
7 Q. In response to my learned friend's questions, you spoke about
8 medical care. Were you visited by a doctor at the KP Dom once a week?
9 A. Once, yes, but perhaps even more because I did not report to a
10 doctor during that interval. I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty
11 whether there were other people from the room reporting to the doctor, but
12 I can confirm that the doctor came in once a week.
13 Q. Sir, did you state to the investigator of the OTP that at first
14 prisoners got eggs and pate for breakfast, and that then this stopped?
15 A. At first we would sometimes get one egg, one slice of bread, and
16 tea, which was not really sweet; and then the next day we would get a can
17 of pate which would be shared between two prisoners. At any rate, a loaf
18 of bread weighing 650 grams was sliced into ten slices. Now, you divide
19 that by ten, so you see how much you get, 6 and a half grams.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. You talked about blood donations today in
21 response to my colleague's questions, and you said that that had to do
22 with the wounding of a person named Bota and the sons of Milorad
23 Krnojelac. Why did you not mention this until now in your statements?
24 A. I don't know how the questions were put, in which order, but I
25 stated that during every interview I had, whoever I talked to. How these
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 corrections were made, I don't know in relation to this last question.
2 Q. In your statements, either in the one you made to the state
3 security station in Konjic or in the two statements that you gave to the
4 State Commission for Collecting Facts about War Crimes, or in the two
5 statements that you gave to the investigators of the OTP, is there any
6 mention that blood donations were given because of this? Did you talk
7 about it at all during your interviews then?
8 A. I claim now and in response to these questions that were put, on
9 all four occasions, if I was asked -- I mean, it's been nine years and
10 memory fades, but I stand by this. Before blood had never been required
11 from the detainees until that moment.
12 Q. When were detainees donating blood at the KP Dom? Can you give us
13 the date?
14 A. This was in mid-June. I can't remember the date.
15 Q. Did this happen during the first half of June?
16 A. I'm not sure whether it is the first half of June or mid-June. I
17 can't say. It's been a lot of time since then.
18 Q. Were the persons you mentioned injured in the same accident?
19 A. Do you refer -- are you referring to Bota and also to his sons?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. According to the information we received, it was the same day.
22 Q. Do you know that a person called Bota together with a military
23 policeman was injured on the 17th or 18th of June when he fell into an
24 ambush and was wounded by a bullet?
25 A. I'm not aware of that. I never mentioned that anywhere.
1 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the sons of Milorad Krnojelac were
2 injured during another accident when they, together with nine other
3 persons, were in a truck that hit a mine?
4 A. The information we got was that they entered a minefield somewhere
5 around Tjentiste.
6 Q. Are you aware of the fact that this event took place five or six
7 days after the event concerning the person nicknamed Bota took place?
8 A. I'm not aware of that.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 In response to my learned friend's questions, you said that you
11 were interrogated in the KP Dom, first by an interrogator who was called
12 Koprivica, and then by an interrogator called Vladicic. Do you know that
13 a person called Zoran Vukovic, who was chief of the military police, also
14 carried out investigations at the KP Dom?
15 A. I personally do not know Zoran Vukovic. I personally was
16 interrogated by Vladicic, and Koprivica had actually started and then that
17 was interrupted, and then Vladicic finished.
18 Q. In response to my learned friend's questions yesterday and today,
19 you spoke about the lists that you made. In addition to the list of
20 persons who were taken out in groups from the KP Dom Foca between the 26th
21 of June until the 15th of July, 1992, and the list of persons who were
22 taken out that is marked ID 301 and that relates to the month of August,
23 did you also make a list of employees in the KP Dom?
24 A. As far as I could remember. I did make a list of those who I
1 Q. When did you compile this list of employees from the KP Dom?
2 A. Just after I got out of prison while I still remembered these
3 persons, because time makes you forget. I could not list all of them
5 Q. That means in 1992?
6 A. In 1992.
7 Q. In part of this list that is called "inspectors, investigators,"
8 in addition to Zoran Vladicic and Koprivica, nicknamed Kopi, you also
9 mentioned Zoran Vukovic for the military police.
10 A. I mentioned that because he is chief of the military police.
11 That's what I heard. But he did not interrogate me.
12 Q. He Did not interrogate you, but he was an investigator at the KP
14 A. Yes. I said that I did not know him, nor do I know who that man
15 is. I don't know him until the present day.
16 Q. Can you then explain how come his name appeared on the list of
17 investigators that you compiled in 1992 if you don't know him and if you
18 don't know who he is?
19 A. Other persons told me that he was chief of the military police in
20 town and that he brought into custody many, many persons who were in
22 Q. When did you talk to these persons who gave you information about
23 Zoran Vukovic?
24 A. When we got out of prison. The group of those who survived,
25 together with me.
1 Q. Where did you talk to them, in which place?
2 A. In Novi Pazar.
3 Q. Can you tell us who are the persons with whom you talked about
4 details related to the KP Dom in Novi Pazar in 1992?
5 A. The persons who got out with me. The persons who got out with me
6 to Novi Pazar. There were 35 of us who had left Foca and reached Rozaje.
7 About ten remained in Rozaje as they found their families there. The
8 rest, 22, 23, 25, I'm not sure, since there wasn't enough room there for
9 us to be accommodated, we were transferred to Novi Pazar to a centre there
10 called Rajcinovic Banja. We found quite a few refugees from Foca there,
11 and all these refugees started asking about their own family members as to
12 where they are and whether they had survived. So there was a lot of
13 talking going on.
14 As for the people who were with me, there was Asim Cankusic,
15 Hadzimuratovic. He was a forwarder from Gornje Polje. And another
16 Hadzimuratovic from Jelec. Then Juso Cemo, Almas Kruho, Rahman Salkija,
17 and another Rahman, Fajko Tafro -- Faik Tafro, Safet Kumro, and I cannot
18 remember the rest right now.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. So after these conversations and after this
20 exchange of information, you compiled a list of employees at the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On the basis of conversations and joint memory, did you compile
23 the other list that my learned friend asked you about here in the
25 A. You mean these lists of persons who were taken out of the camp?
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In the list of employees at the KP Dom, did you say that Savo
4 Todovic is an interrogator who is responsible for a lot of mistreatment of
6 A. I did not say that about Savo Todovic. I just knew that he was
7 allegedly the assistant warden, and that he knew what happened, just like
8 the warden did with these persons who were no longer there.
9 JUDGE HUNT: May I remind you, sir, to watch that screen before
10 you answer the question. You have been doing very well, but that answer
11 came in a long way before the interpreters had finished.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This list of employees at the KP Dom that you compiled, as you
14 said, on the basis of conversations you had with other persons who left
15 the KP Dom, is that the opinion based on the conversations that you had
16 with other persons that you mentioned under number 3, Savo Todovic, an
17 investigator responsible for a lot of mistreatment and killings of Bosniak
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. During your interrogation at the KP Dom, did the
21 investigator ask you about whether you knew about Bosniak Muslim persons
22 who had stolen medicines from the hospital in Foca?
23 A. Yes, he asked me about that.
24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, did Inspector Vladicic, after he concluded
25 his questioning, did he say that you would be taken to trial?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 A. Yes. Let me explain about the medicines. He asked me where the
2 medicine [redacted] had gone, and also [redacted].
3 My answer was that I did not use medicine, or rather, that I did not
4 distribute it. I just asked for medicine for time to time [redacted]
5 [redacted]. And then I said that he had to inquire in the pharmacy as
6 to who had been given these large quantities of medicine.
7 During the interrogation, as it ended, when he offered me this
8 statement so that I could sign it, I tried to read it, but he warned me
9 that I should sign it without reading it.
10 Q. Please go ahead.
11 A. He warned me that this would be taken to court, and he also asked
12 me whether I wanted him to write down that I had killed ten persons as
13 well. And I said that he can write whatever he wants to, that I was in
14 his hands, and that I was powerless.
15 Q. You've already explained that.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid it's 11.00 so
17 perhaps it would be a good time to take a break.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. There will be a reference in his third last
19 answer that will have to be redacted, but I'll make sure that's done
20 during the adjournment so that it will not be broadcast.
21 We'll resume at 11.30.
22 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Sir, in response to my learned friend's question about persons
2 whom you say were taken out on the 26th and 27th and taken perhaps to
3 Bileca to a court martial, were you saying that it was a military court
5 A. I have no information to the effect that it was a court martial.
6 They only said that the court has been established in Foca. That was the
7 information broadcast by the media. That was my response to the question,
8 whether it existed or not, whether somebody had ordered for somebody to
9 deliver those people to that court.
10 Q. Sir, in your statement given to the State Commission for
11 Collecting Facts on War Crimes, on the 23rd September 1992, did you say
12 that the persons taken away from the KP Dom to Bileca to court martial,
13 and in another version, that they were killed?
14 A. In that statement I said that those persons, as far as I was able
15 to find out, were taken for exchanges because there was a front line then
16 at -- near Dubrovnik, and my information was that those people were being
17 exchanged and that those people had never been heard from again.
18 Q. Did you state that you had heard that those people had perhaps
19 been taken to Bileca to a military court martial?
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have the same problem as a
21 couple of days ago. We don't hear everyone on channel 7, so I may have
22 lost the witness's answer.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment, Mr. Vasic. We have a problem here.
24 The interpreters did not hear the answer to that question. Perhaps you
25 should ask him to -- ask him the question again, unless you can recall
1 what his answer was.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I'll ask my question again.
3 Q. Did you say to the State Commission for Collecting Facts on War
4 Crimes that persons who were taken away from the KP Dom on the 26th
5 February were taken perhaps to the court martial, and in another version,
6 that they may have been killed?
7 A. I said not only about the persons who were taken out on the 25th
8 of June, but persons who were on the longer list, who were taken out in
9 smaller groups, that I had information that they may have been taken for
10 an exchange to the Dubrovnik front, and because Mate Vancic was among
11 those people, and Kruno, who dabbled in journalism, they were not of the
12 same ethnicity. And I doubted it could have been true. I -- perhaps
13 it was true, perhaps not. Maybe the accused can tell the Honourable Court
14 where these people are.
15 Q. Sir, do you know a person by the name of Dzevad Smajkan?
16 A. I know Sacir Smajkan, but not Dzevad.
17 Q. Do you know whether Sacir Smajkan had been detained in the
18 Ministry of the Interior of Trebinje, the SUP of Trebinje?
19 A. I have no such information.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. Did you state to investigators of the office of
21 the Prosecutor that those who were going to work considered themselves
22 lucky because they received food in addition to what they were getting at
23 the KP Dom?
24 A. We considered that they were in an advantageous position because
25 they had opportunity to contact more people, maybe even some people from
1 the town. And if nothing else, fruit was available then in July and
2 August, and they could eat more. We learnt from them that they got an
3 extra meal called "snack" while we did not have that and we were starving.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. We discussed already today the lists that you
5 have drawn up, lists of people who had been taken out. Can you tell me
6 about these people who were taken in groups from the KP Dom from the 26th
7 of June to the 15th of July, ID 299? When did you draw it up, in 1992
8 when you were released, or after your return in 1995?
9 A. I drew up that list immediately after I got out of prison while I
10 still had a fresh memory because I knew those people, and as everyone
11 knows, time means forgetting. I could have probably listed more of them
12 if I had known what had happened to those people. As far as I know, those
13 people in larger groups were saying they were going to be exchanged. I
14 hadn't known that then.
15 As for smaller groups who were taken out during the night, I came
16 to the conclusion that they were killed. And from what I know, shots were
17 heard, screaming, and moaning, and sounds of beating, and for all I know,
18 they have never been heard from again. They never reappeared again. And
19 I am asking this Honourable Court to have the accused tell us where these
20 people are so that they can give -- so that they can be given a proper
22 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I understand your concern about this matter,
23 but that is not something that really can we do in the course of your
24 evidence, so will you please just get on with your evidence and leave that
25 point to one side.
1 A. Thank you.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Sir, do you possess the original of this list, because you said
4 these were copies?
5 A. The list I had yesterday is the original. Maybe I haven't
6 included everyone in that list because I didn't see everything. Maybe
7 other people can give some more information. The number may be larger.
8 Q. So this list, the photocopy of which you handed over to
9 investigators of the OTP, the lists of people taken out from June to July,
10 corresponds to the list made in 1995?
11 A. Yes, it does, except for the part which concerns Uzeir Cankusic,
12 Adnan Isanovic, and another person. Those people were shot outside the
13 hospital in the beginning. I think they are in the list as well.
14 Q. Yes, it says so in the list, but I'm interested in something
15 else. On which typewriter did you type this list and where?
16 A. In Novi Pazar in one of the socially-owned premises.
17 Q. Is that a typewriter, or was it a computer?
18 A. An ordinary typewriter. I had a handwritten list which I
19 destroyed after I typed it out.
20 Q. When you were drawing up and typing that list, were you alone, or
21 were you in the company of other former detainees who left the KP Dom
22 together with you?
23 A. Since I had a list written in pencil, I was alone when I read that
24 list and gave it to a typist who typed it. And I can say that Dzemo,
25 Vahida, should also be on the list and is not included.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. Concerning the list of people taken out in August
2 about which you told us that it was drawn up in 1997 [Realtime transcript
3 read in error "1992"], is it your handwriting, or is it somebody else's?
4 A. It's my handwriting.
5 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt, but there's a
6 discrepancy in what the question was and what's on the transcript, but I
7 also think there was a factual error in that. Mr. Vasic said 1997, the
8 transcript shows 1992, but in fact I think it was 1992. So perhaps we
9 could have that question asked to the witness.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps we should ask you what your qualifications
11 are in - I hope I get the letters right - B/C/S.
12 MS. KUO: But the translation, Your Honour, said 1997. That's
13 what I heard.
14 JUDGE HUNT: The translation, I see.
15 MS. KUO: And the transcript says 1992.
16 JUDGE HUNT: But you say it should be 1992 anyway.
17 MS. KUO: Factually I think it should be 1992 because that's what
18 I understood from the Witness's testimony. So I don't know whether the
19 translation, which I heard, was somebody who misspoke 1997, or whether in
20 fact Mr. Vasic did say 1997.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you for that.
22 Mr. Vasic, which did you intend?
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in response to my
24 learned friend's question during examination-in-chief, the Witness said
25 that he made this list after his return to Bosnia, according to the
1 information. He got together with former detainees.
2 Q. When did you make this list of people who were taken out from the
3 KP Dom between the 25th of June and the 27th of August, and on the 31st of
5 JUDGE HUNT: What I asked you was, did you say in 1997, and if you
6 did say it, did you intend to say it? And are you disputing Ms. Kuo's
7 suggestion that the witness had spoken about 1992?
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I said 1997, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: You see, earlier you said in answer to -- you asked a
10 question, page 34, lines 5 and 6, "When did you draw it up, in 1992 when
11 you were released, or after your return in 1995?" And the answer was, "I
12 draw up that list immediately after I got out of prison whilst I still had
13 a fresh memory." That suggests he was accepting 1992 as his answer.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, but we're talking
15 about a list ID 299, the list of people who were taken out between the
16 26th of June and 15th of July. I'm not asking him about list ID 301, a
17 list of people who were taken out in August 1992, when that list was made.
18 JUDGE HUNT: A different list.
19 Well, Ms. Kuo, does that satisfied your query?
20 MS. KUO: The -- I don't believe the witness ever said 1997, so
21 that question --
22 JUDGE HUNT: The first thing to do is to ascertain from the
23 witness when the second list was drawn up. And then we should all be
24 happy, I hope. Thank you.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 Q. Sir, the list of people who were taken out in August 1992, when
2 did you make it?
3 A. I made that list several times. Among other things, it was
4 mentioned in the statement to the Secretariat of the Interior of Konjic
5 upon my return the first time, the second time at the investigator's in
6 Sarajevo on two occasions, the third time when I was talking to the State
7 Commission for Tracing Missing Persons. That was the fourth time.
8 Q. Sir, I'm talking about the list presented to you by my learned
9 friend which is number ID 301 which you read out at her request. When did
10 you make this list?
11 A. I made all those lists when I was giving my statements to
13 Q. Which year was that?
14 A. In 1997, one; and the other one at the Secretariat of the Interior
15 in Konjic was in 1995. I don't remember about the third. One list I made
16 at the state commission in 1996. I wouldn't be able to tell you about the
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the help of the usher, I would
19 like to show this witness list number ID 301, because I'm asking only
20 about one of the lists.
21 Q. Sir, is it true that it's your handwriting on this list?
22 A. Yes. This is my handwriting exactly. This first group in the
23 upper part.
24 Q. You have explained that already.
25 A. It relates to the departure of two groups on the 25th and the
1 27th. A group of about 36 to 40 people in total taken out in groups of 20
2 on the 25th, and the 27th. And this third part relates to the group which
3 got out together with me and was returned once to the prison, and then
4 groups of ten were singled out, and out of those people, none has ever
5 been heard from again. In total, that would be about 60 persons.
6 Q. You said, sir, that this third list relates to intellectuals.
7 A. Yes. And there are more of them, about 20.
8 Q. You said this was your handwriting. In response to my learned
9 friend's question, however, you said you dictated this list. How come you
10 dictated something which is written in your own hand?
11 A. I dictated at first, and then I made my own list in my own hand
12 knowing that I would be coming here to testify.
13 Q. Sir, can you please look at page 2 of this document, ID 301.
14 That's the group which you say are intellectuals who were taken out. Can
15 you tell me the profession of Mr. Avdo Kameric?
16 A. Avdo Kameric is not in the group of intellectuals, but he's a
17 highly skilled worker, craftsman.
18 Q. What were the occupations of Pace, the father and son, that's
19 second line from the top in document ID 301?
20 A. No, no, no. This list here is not of intellectuals. This is a
21 list of the people who were separated from us after we got back from
22 Niksic to the KP Dom, except for Avdo Kameric and Fadil Divjan.
23 This list here relates partly to intellectuals and partly to
24 highly-skilled workers. I remember some more intellectuals which I could
25 add to the list if you want me to.
1 Q. Sir, were you speaking about this list when you said to my learned
2 friend that the people listed were intellectuals?
3 A. There are some intellectuals, and I even failed to list all of
4 them. I could add some more. I said so in response to the Prosecutor's
6 Q. From this list, the name of Balic Dzemo, what was his occupation?
7 You say here he was a trader.
8 A. He was a trader, but I don't know that he is on the list of
10 Q. Look at page 2 of document ID 301, the fourth line is Balic,
11 Dzemo, a trader.
12 A. He is a trader, but I don't know that all the intellectuals are
13 listed here. Some names are missing. I don't know how this came about.
14 I can now individually enumerate these individuals.
15 Q. Is a person with the last name of Veiz also on the list, and a
16 person under number six who is an employee of Maglic?
17 A. He worked on repairs. He repaired the building of the KP Dom.
18 Q. Can you explain, sir, why, when you were making this list, you
19 failed to mention all the people which you now say you could enumerate?
20 Was your memory in 1997 better than now in 2001 as far as events in the KP
21 Dom are concerned? And you said you were doing this while your memory was
22 still fresh so that you wouldn't forget.
23 A. In 1992, I wasn't thinking about intellectuals. I never made this
24 statement before 1996. I gave this statement subsequently while I was
25 thinking why so many intellectuals were missing? Was it on purpose that
1 these people were killed, this very able workforce of young, educated
2 people who went missing during the war years?
3 Q. Sir, out of the eight people who are on the list, the people whom
4 you call intellectuals, four are intellectuals and four are skilled
5 workers. Do you still call this a list of intellectuals?
6 A. No, I don't. I don't know really how this came about, this
7 discrepancy between statements. I can now enumerate the intellectuals
8 before Honourable Court and I cold even say where each of them is
10 Q. Thank you, sir. Today you mentioned that from the administrative
11 building, machine-guns were pointed at the prisoners' quarters. Why did
12 you fail to mention this in all the statements you made before, to the
13 security station, to the Secretariat of the Interior, and the two
14 statements you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?
15 A. When I was giving those statements, in all of them, I couldn't
16 mention even a third of what had happened. A person isn't able to
17 concentrate. He is under emotional pressure, in an emotional state, and
18 it takes you over. And from the administrative building pointed towards
19 the garages in the prisoners' building, I saw Brdjo on two occasions, a
20 man I knew, and Kruno. They worked shifts. In the other part I just saw
21 machine-guns; I couldn't see any faces.
22 And a lot of time has gone by, and a person tends to remember some
23 things and fails to remember other things. And from all the people who
24 come here before the Tribunal, Honourable Court, you will see that all of
25 them saw things differently.
1 The room where I was, was on the ground floor, and I couldn't see
2 a lot of things that could be seen by other people who were on upper
3 floors, people who were in rooms facing the town, people who had a view,
4 and some of them could even see what was going on outside within the
5 prison itself.
6 Q. Sir, in response to my learned friend's question, you also said
7 for the first time today that on two occasions when you saw Milorad
8 Krnojelac in the KP Dom, you saw him carrying a pistol. You didn't
9 mention that in any of the statements you gave before. Can you explain
11 A. Nobody asked me whether he was armed or not.
12 Q. I couldn't agree with you, sir, that nobody had asked you whether
13 he had been armed or not. In your statement of 31 May 1999, given to the
14 investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor, you stated, "I don't know
15 whether or not he had personal weapons."
16 A. At that moment, I thought that what they meant was bigger weapons.
17 I didn't think they meant personal weapons, smaller firearms, because a
18 license is required for hunting rifles and things like that. I didn't
19 think that licenses were needed for automatic weapons and personal
21 Q. Sir, that's exactly what I was saying, that you were talking about
22 personal weapons, not about automatic rifles, big rifles, things like
23 that. You said that you were not aware of whether Milorad Krnojelac had
24 personal weapons.
25 A. You can say that he had nothing, but I was 30 or 50 metres away
1 from him. I saw a holster. Of course it was a pistol that he had. What
2 else could he have had?
3 Q. I'm going to read that part to you. That is document ID 298. The
4 B/C/S version is 298A. In B/C/S it is page 4, paragraph 1; in the English
5 version it is also page 4. In the paragraph where you speak about Milorad
6 Krnojelac: "Milorad Krnojelac was the warden, the camp warden, and before
7 he took over this duty at the KP Dom, he was a mathematics teacher." And
8 now the part that is of interest to us: "A few times when I saw him, he
9 wore a camouflage uniform. I don't know whether he wore -- he carried any
10 personal weapons."
11 Is this what you stated to the investigator?
12 A. I don't know whether I mentioned personal weapons. I just know
13 about the pistol, that he carried a pistol.
14 Q. When you were giving this statement on the 31st of May, 1999, did
15 the investigator from the OTP put a question to you that -- whether you
16 saw Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom carrying any weapons?
17 A. I don't know which weapons this related to. I don't know. I
18 answered that I did not see that.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. Today when my learned friend asked you whether
20 you saw Mr. Krnojelac at the KP Dom, why did you say that he had a pistol,
21 and she never even asked you about it?
22 A. I saw what I saw, and I maintain that he had a pistol. I cannot
23 confirm what kind of an assignment he had.
24 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you said today, sir,
25 that a person had been wounded in the leg from the mines that were placed
1 around the KP Dom. Is that correct?
2 A. That is correct. And it will probably be confirmed by some of the
3 other persons that will be heard, or perhaps somebody has already
4 confirmed it.
5 Q. Sir, did you state to the investigator of the OTP, in your
6 statement given on the 22nd of October 1997, that special -- that a
7 special unit of the Serb army had placed mines on the lawns, but that no
8 one was wounded or killed on account of these mines?
9 A. None of our detainees, that's what I meant, because nobody tried
10 to escape.
11 Q. Thank you. My learned friend mentioned today the statement you
12 gave to the State Security Centre in Konjic where you mentioned that
13 Milorad Krnojelac was warden of the prison and Mitar Rasevic, commander of
14 the prison. Is this the kind of statement you gave, because there were
15 two parts of the prison, one part where there was a warden and another
16 part where there was a commander?
17 A. I never said that there were two prisons. In peacetime there was
18 the Drina furniture factory, and also the part of the prison where
19 convicts and the employees there worked. However, during war operations,
20 I never mentioned that there were two prisons, or were there two prisons,
21 for that matter.
22 Q. Tell me, do you know whether the Drina unit worked while you were
23 at the KP Dom?
24 A. I don't know whether the unit Drina worked or not. In that
25 economic unit Drina, there were some leftover materials, so craftsmen,
1 detainees, organised this work. They were finishing up what was there.
2 Muratovic, Sacir, a tailor worked there; Fehim Isanovic, a carpenter
3 worked there; and Soldo Ivan, who had worked in that unit before.
4 I can't mention any other names, but I know that these persons
5 worked there at that plant.
6 Q. Do you know about the farm and the metalwork shop that they worked
7 as well as the farm?
8 A. I don't know about the metalwork shop, whether it worked. I just
9 know that some of the locksmiths and drivers, car mechanics, electricians,
10 there was this group of craftsmen. I don't know whether they were
11 actually engaged in production or in repairs only. I don't know about
12 that because I was not outside and I could not see.
13 As for agriculture, the agricultural plant, it was separate. It
14 was three or four kilometres away. Some detainees went up there to work,
15 to cut grass, to dig, and also to tend to the maize and other crops that
16 were sown there, but I was not up there and I could not see it.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, do you know that part of the
18 fish from the fisheries in Jelec that you were talking about was
19 transferred to Bukovica near Mjesaja?
20 A. I'm not aware of that. Whether it was transferred or sold, I
21 can't say.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, did the army take you out for
23 the exchange when you went?
24 A. No soldiers took us. The guards took us through the compound. We
25 were searched at the administration building, and then they boarded us
1 onto a bus, and then we left, and then we stopped at Velecevo at
2 headquarters. What was going on, I don't know.
3 Q. Were you taken to the military command at Velecevo?
4 A. We were at a plateau in front of that part where formerly there
5 was the women's prison. The man who was with us went in there with those
6 papers, took care of whatever. Nobody reported to us about anything. We
7 didn't know what was going on.
8 Q. Over there at Velecevo, were there persons in military uniforms?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were there any military vehicles?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that in mid-June 1992, people were first
13 taken out and beaten. Can you tell me on which date this started, if you
14 can remember?
15 A. I could not confirm the exact date.
16 Q. Is that in the first half or second half of June 1992?
17 A. From mid-June until perhaps the beginning of July, perhaps even
18 up to mid-July. Because this did not happen every day. Sometimes two or
19 three evenings would go by.
20 Q. In response to my learned friend's question, you talked about the
21 event concerning Dr. Aziz Torlak. Why did you not describe this event
22 earlier on in your earlier statements? Did you not remember it, or is
23 there some other reason for that?
24 A. Aziz was not beaten up. He only had this small cut on his neck
25 when he was asked to hand over his car keys. He did not make any comments
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 in the room. Since we had worked closely together before, he just showed
2 this to me, and that was all.
3 Q. There's the list that you made of persons who were taken out in
4 groups from the 26th of June until the 15th of July, 1992. Can you tell
5 me, for each and every one of them, on which date he was taken out, at
6 what time, and from which room?
7 A. I cannot mention any dates in relation to these men. I can only
8 mention every person's name specifically. Sometimes it was three, four,
9 or even five.
10 Q. Did you see all of these people taken out personally, all of these
11 people mentioned in this list?
12 A. I could not have seen all these people because this was during the
13 night. From my room, what did I see?
14 Q. How many persons were taken out of your room?
15 A. Seven, or perhaps eight. I can mention their names and surnames
17 Q. I think that you already did this in response to my learned
18 friend's questions during the examination-in-chief. Thank you.
19 You mentioned that some of the detainees built isolation cells.
20 Is that completely new isolation cells, and where were they?
21 A. Yes, I said that. I found out about that from the people who
22 were working on it. This was in a part of the building that faced the
23 town, in the hall. They built cells.
24 Q. Are you referring to the other wing of the building where
25 detainees were?
1 A. Yes. The other wing that faced town, where detainees also were,
2 because the building is F-shaped.
3 Q. Thank you. A few minutes ago we mentioned Mr. Aziz Torlak. Can
4 you tell me who Mr. Torlak's car, if you know?
5 A. He didn't tell me that. I don't know.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I
7 would like to show the witness Exhibit 6/1 so that he could show us where
8 these isolation cells were built.
9 Just a minute, please. We need to use the ELMO so that we could
10 all see. The usher will help you place this on the ELMO.
11 Q. Could you please show us on the ELMO, not on the monitor screen,
12 where these rooms were, the ones that you say were built.
13 A. In building 2, in the hall. That's what I found out from the
14 others. I could not see that, because I was in building number 1, and
15 they were in building number 2. They were built in building number 2.
16 Q. You cannot show us exactly?
17 A. No, I cannot, and I am telling the truth only. I'm never going
18 to say whatever is not true. I'm only saying what is absolutely true. So
19 this was in building number 2.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Both of you are failing to pause and you're causing
21 great trouble for the interpreters. Please remember to pause before the
22 question and before the answer.
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour. I just
24 tried to warn the witness that he was supposed to pause. I didn't want to
25 say anything else.
1 Thank you, sir. We won't be needing this floor plan any more, so
2 could the usher please return Exhibit 6/1.
3 Q. Sir, could you please tell me, when were these rooms built? Do
4 you know?
5 A. In June or July. Nusret Salcinovic, an electrician, put the
6 electric installations in. Dedovic, Fehim, painted the premises. They
7 were both in my room at the time and I found out about this from them.
8 Q. Is that June and July 1992?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. You talked about an automobile that had a faulty
11 exhaust pipe that you heard during the nights when the beatings took
12 place. Could this car be heard before the detainees were taken out, or
13 were detainees first taken out and was the car heard only then?
14 A. This car could be heard as they were coming and as they were
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me about this sound as the car was
17 coming in? From which direction did it come?
18 A. I cannot exactly say whether it was coming from the bridge or from
19 town. At any rate, it was coming from up there.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know a person called Atif Jasarevic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did Atif Jasarevic tell you something about his conflict with Savo
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know about whether Atif Jasarevic had a conflict with Savo
1 Todovic at all?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Sir, did you state to the investigator of the OTP on the 31st of
4 May, 1999, "I did not know Savo Todovic very well, only by name, and I
5 cannot say anything about him. I know that Atif Jasarevic, who is now in
6 the Ministry of Defence in Sarajevo, has direct knowledge of Savo Todovic
7 because he had had a conflict with him."
8 A. As for this statement, once I sat and talked with Asim [as
9 interpreted] Jasarevic, and he told me that he had had a conflict with
10 Savo. I did not know Savo well enough earlier. On that basis, I found
11 out about that.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, you said that you heard gunshots. Can
13 you tell us which day was this when you heard these five gunshots?
14 A. I said earlier on that I cannot exactly state the date when the
15 shooting was heard, and it was heard several times during the night.
16 Q. Do you know who was taken out on that occasion, which ones out of
17 the detainees?
18 A. I said decidedly in my joint list which persons were taken out in
19 various groups and in different intervals.
20 Q. No. I would like you to tell me which persons were taken out on
21 the day when you heard the gunshots. Do you know that?
22 A. I cannot confirm the exact date, but as for these gunshots, I know
23 about two of them who were taken away from dinner, and it lasted a long
24 time. That was Nurko Nisic, and Halim Konjo.
25 As for the other rooms, I did not know who was taken out. Since
1 Nurko and Halim were in my room, I was terrified as to what would happen,
2 and I waited for a long time until the late hours 9.00 or 10.00 perhaps.
3 Moans and screams could be heard. And I heard someone shouting in a loud
4 voice twice, "Nurko, Nurko." Then everything went quiet again, and then
5 after that screaming and yelling and moaning started yet again. And then
6 again everything went quiet. And then I heard four billets fired from a
7 pistol. I heard that because I was standing right by a window and I was
8 worried about what would happen next, and then I heard tuk-tuk-tuk-tuk.
9 After a while, the sound of the car that was leaving. That is
10 what I can claim. Not only then, it also happened before that and it also
11 happened after that, but I remember this because that was the day when
12 they were taken away from dinner. Obrenovic, nicknamed Obren, told the
13 two of them to report at the exit. "Report at the exit," those were the
14 words that he used.
15 Q. What time was it when the heard the gunshots?
16 A. Perhaps it was 12.00, 1.00. I don't know. We didn't dare turn on
17 the lights, and I could not look at my watch.
18 Q. Can you tell us from which room the moanings and screams could be
20 A. From the administration building, from down there. That's where
21 they were heard from.
22 Q. Does that mean it was coming from the hall at the entrance into
23 the compound of the KP Dom?
24 A. Yes. You could hear it from there. You could not say whether it
25 was from this window or from that window, but sounds resound during the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 night. They reverberate all over.
2 Q. From which position did you hear the gunshots?
3 A. From the same building. Whether it was from the building outwards
4 or it was inside the building, I cannot know that.
5 Q. So according to you, they could have come from the building or
6 they could have come from outside, from within the KP Dom?
7 A. I was inside the building. I wasn't close enough to be able to
8 tell you where within 20 metres it came from.
9 Q. Today in response to another question of mine you said that when
10 you heard the gun shots, you were close to the window because you were
11 concerned about the fate of the people who had been taken out from your
12 room; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I was very worried, very worried indeed about what was going
14 on with them and what would happen to all of us.
15 Q. Did you say to the investigators of the OTP on the 31st of May,
16 1999, the following: "I remember one night about 1.00 a.m. I was awake
17 and I was thinking about my family, when after a beating, silence
18 followed, and then suddenly five single gunshots were fired." Is it true
19 what you said to the investigators of the OTP, or what you have just said
20 today, that you were standing by the window worried, or is the other
21 version true, that you were thinking about your family?
22 A. I was worried about my family, and if I heard the gunshots, I
23 became even more worried. What I stated is true.
24 Q. Sir, thank you very much.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has no more
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Ms. Kuo.
3 MS. KUO: Just very briefly, Your Honour.
4 Re-examined by Ms. Kuo:
5 Q. Witness, you were asked by Defence counsel about the presence of
6 Muslim military forces at KP Dom. Did you ever see Serb military forces
7 at the KP Dom, and if so, when?
8 A. I cannot hear the translation.
9 JUDGE HUNT: What channel -- you had better check the channel he's
11 THE USHER: Channel 7.
12 A. I can hear now, yes, I can hear now.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Try again, Ms. Kuo, and see whether it's something at
14 your end. Your microphone is not on at the moment.
15 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
16 Q. Witness, did you ever see any Serb military forces at the KP Dom,
17 and if so, when?
18 A. I saw Serb military forces on two occasions. I saw soldiers on
19 one occasion who had discarded their weapons. That was after Ustikolina
20 was taken. They had taken off their belts. On another occasion I saw
21 soldiers when they were laying mines within the compound, and I mentioned
22 that in my previous testimony.
23 Q. When you first arrived at the KP Dom on the 24th of April, was --
24 were there Serb military forces present at the KP Dom?
25 A. When I arrived, that was on the 25th of April. I arrived around
1 5.00 or 6.00 at the gate. I was met by guards, the employees of the
2 prison. There was Slavko Koroman whom I knew, and there was a Milic and
3 another one.
4 Q. Witness, my only question refers to the military, not about the
5 guards. Were there Serb military forces at the KP Dom when you arrived?
6 A. I didn't notice any.
7 MS. KUO: Your Honours, those are the questions I have, but I do
8 have two things I'd like to clarify with regard to when Defence counsel
9 was allegedly quoting from statements. I just wanted to make sure we had
10 on the record the correct quotations, and it really doesn't have much to
11 do with the witness but more to do with the documents. Perhaps we can get
12 Defence counsel to agree that that's what it states so then the Court can
13 take that into consideration.
14 JUDGE HUNT: This is additional material you want added to what
15 was quoted to the witness?
16 MS. KUO: Well, for instance, when Mr. Vasic was cross-examining
17 the witness about the possession of the pistol, he read a certain portion
18 out which, as you know the way statements here are done, was translated
19 into B/C/S and then in the courtroom was translated back into English. I
20 wanted to put on the record that the statement in the English original
21 was, "I do not know if he was carrying a sidearm or not," just so the
22 Court has that word which is somewhat ambiguous.
23 JUDGE HUNT: That would be permissible and we can follow the
24 process that we did with the last witness or the witness before, where
25 each party can ask the other party to agree that that's in the statement.
1 So you ask Mr. Vasic or Mr. Bakrac, whichever is willing to do with the
2 matter, whether that is so in the English version. It may, of course, be
3 necessary to look at how that was translated into B/C/S.
4 MS. KUO: Yes, of course.
5 JUDGE HUNT: In the one which counsel for the Defence have.
6 MS. KUO: The document I'm referring to is ID 298. It's the
7 English interview with the witness dated 31 May 1999. It's on page 3,
8 paragraph 3, last sentence.
9 JUDGE HUNT: We should keep the witness here just in case
10 something has to be cleared up.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I believe that is
12 how I asked my question of the witness. It is true that he said he was
13 not carrying a personal weapon or a sidearm or not. I don't see the
14 difference, but it's true that it says so in his statement.
15 JUDGE HUNT: This is not a particular criticism of your question,
16 Mr. Vasic, it's just ensuring that we have all of the records of that
17 particular conversation.
18 Yes, Ms. Kuo, what's the next one?
19 MS. KUO: The other relates to the role of Mr. Rasevic, and the --
20 I believe I read the quotation out the first time that Mr. Rasevic was
21 performing the duties of the commander, and the witness explained what he
22 meant by that. When it was quoted back by Mr. Vasic, he claimed that the
23 witness said that Mr. Rasevic was the commander, and I want it to be clear
24 that the direct quotation was that he was performing the duties.
25 JUDGE HUNT: When you say the direct quotation, you mean from a
1 particular document?
2 MS. KUO: Yes, that's ID 304.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Paragraph or page?
4 MS. KUO: In the English it's page 3 at the very bottom. The very
5 last two lanes say, "The prison warden was Milorad Krnojelac." And then
6 the sentence which begins at the very end of that page says, "The duties
7 of prison commander were performed by Mitar Rasevic who was permanently
8 employed at the KP Dom."
9 JUDGE HUNT: Is that agreed, Mr. Vasic?
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Are those the only matters?
12 MS. KUO: That's all, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are
14 now free to leave.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank this
16 Honourable Court for their patience.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You must understand my excitement
19 and my emotion, and perhaps not everything ran so smoothly as I would have
20 wanted it to. Perhaps some corrections are needed regarding the
21 Prosecutor and the interpreters because the Defence counsel asked many
22 questions about discrepancies in statements. That's all I wanted to say.
23 Thank you.
24 JUDGE HUNT: You should understand, sir, that we have listened to
25 very many witnesses giving evidence in this trial. Many of them have the
1 same problems as you have had. We do understand the emotions with which
2 each of you give your evidence here. If we have attempted at times to
3 confine your evidence, it's because we have a lot of other evidence in the
4 case and we do not want too much repetition. But we are very grateful to
5 you for having coming here and for having given your evidence. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you may say one more thing with
7 your leave.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If anyone would entrust six sheep to
12 a shepherd for keeping and two-thirds went missing, that shepherd would
13 go on trial. That's all I meant to say. And we're talking about people
15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE HUNT: Now, I understand, Mr. Bakrac, you want to revisit an
19 issue which has been discussed on many occasions about the time the
20 Defence should have for the preparation of its Defence case. What is it
21 you want to add?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise in advance.
23 I don't want to shift the responsibility onto someone else, but in my
24 conversations with other judges [as interpreted], it has been suggested to
25 me to raise this issue; namely, we expected that on the 12th when this
1 last part of the Prosecutor's witnesses started, that it would last two
2 weeks, and that is how we planned our work on the ground. However, it has
3 stretched into the third week, and there are still two witnesses left, and
4 that it is uncertain whether we would finish with them by the end of the
5 week. Perhaps we would need a fourth week.
6 We had discussed and we had agreed - in fact, we have received
7 permission from you - to have two weeks before beginning our Defence.
8 However, there is the Easter, both the Catholic and the Orthodox one,
9 we'll have one Monday off and perhaps the Tuesday as well; we would have
10 to have a Pre-Defence Conference also, so that Defence is left not with
11 two whole weeks but practically only one week to prepare their Defence.
12 That is why I would like to ask you to make our schedule in such a way so
13 that the Defence is allowed, taking account of the holidays, two whole
15 And we would like this Pre-Defence Conference to be on the 23rd of
16 April. Unless we do that, since Monday and Tuesday are days off on the
17 ground and we have to travel here, we would be left with only one week's
18 time to do all the preparations.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I follow the logic of the fact that
20 you have extra time that you have less time, but let's get the progress
21 sorted out.
22 Before we do that, I should ask you, is the Orthodox Easter the
23 same as the Christian one, the Catholic one?
24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This year, yes.
25 JUDGE HUNT: So that the weekend commencing Friday the 13th is
1 your Easter. There is, of course, a Plenary meeting of Judges on the 12th
2 which takes that day out, anyway.
3 Let's hear from the Prosecution when they believe they will be
4 finishing their case.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, in the next week we will have
6 the Witness 210 on Monday, and as it is a very important witness for both
7 sides, I think, it will take at least one and a half day for both, that
8 is, case in chief and cross-examination. And for the Witness 250 who
9 would then start on Tuesday, we have at the moment actually no real idea
10 how long it will take because we have never seen that witness before, but
11 I estimate about a day, too.
12 That means we will end -- we will rest our case on the 4th, during
13 the 4th, that is, the Wednesday next week.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Now, we did say that the Defence could have the
15 rest of that week without counting it. There is -- which means the
16 Thursday and the Friday. The following week, taking a day off for
17 Easter, there are four days, and then the following week taking the Monday
18 off for Easter, there are four days. That would be taking it three to
19 Friday the 20th of April.
20 Well, then, Mr. Bakrac, if we have the Pre-Trial Conference on the
21 Monday, the 23rd, are you ready then to start on the 24th, or are you
22 suggesting an even later start than that?
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thought, if
24 possible -- well, since you ask me, I will take the liberty of saying that
25 it would be convenient for the Defence for the Pre-Trial Conference to be
1 on the Thursday 26th, and for the Defence case to start on the Monday of
2 the 30th of April, or perhaps Tuesday. I don't know if we work on the
3 Monday the 30th. The Defence has to go to the field, and if we hold the
4 Pre-Trial Conference on Monday, which means that we would have to come
5 here on the Thursday or Friday the previous week, with these holidays it
6 means that we would have only just six working days in the field, two plus
7 four. I apologise, but if we hold this Pre-Trial Conference on Monday, we
8 have to arrive before the weekend the previous week, so that means that we
9 would have only one working day left in that week on the ground.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Monday the 30th of April, that's the Queen's birthday
11 here in the Netherlands which is, I think, a holiday. But we don't get
12 labour day the next day. I see.
13 Well, what is the Prosecution's attitude to the application?
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution has no objections.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the Trial Chamber believes that it's fair
18 enough for you, bearing in mind that there are so many holidays during
19 your time off. We'll start the Defence case on the 1st of May, that's the
20 Tuesday. And is the Pre-Trial Conference better for you on the Thursday
21 or the Friday? The Thursday, I suppose, would be better in case something
22 has to be done.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. And thank you very
24 much for your understanding and for granting this request of the Defence.
25 Thursday is perhaps more convenient if we need to get some more work done
1 on Friday.
2 JUDGE HUNT: So that makes the Pre-Defence Conference on Thursday,
3 the 26th of April, and opening on the 1st of May.
4 I just think I better consult the rules. I know you don't have to
5 file any more pre-trial briefs, but does the alteration to that rule
6 require you to put anything else in.
7 I suppose I should ask you, Mr. Bakrac, is it intended in any way
8 to amend your pre-trial brief, the one that's already been filed?
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, there will be no
10 major changes. In fact, there will be no changes at all. Perhaps in our
11 opening statement, but nothing more than that.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we have to have something to discuss at the
13 Pre- Defence Conference, so if there is anything that you think that
14 should be raised, would you please give us fair notice of it and so the
15 Prosecution can consider the matter. It will certainly save time on that
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE HUNT: Two things. What about the photographs, have they
19 been given to the Prosecution?
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, they have been
21 given, but I must be very honest and apologise because we don't have the
22 entire documentation translated as yet, and we haven't put identification
23 numbers on them. Those are photographs without ID numbers, and I
24 apologise for this part. However, the Prosecution has had a look at
25 original photographs, and they have the photo documentation arranged in
1 the same way as theirs [as interpreted] is organised.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, is it necessary for the Prosecution to
3 recall any of its witnesses to deal with what can be seen out of the
4 various windows? I don't want it do in reply if we can avoid it.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but at the moment I do not actually see
6 any discrepancies. I cannot say that now for sure.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Until you get the translation.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And also, just another point, we have not yet
9 got any witness list from Defence counsel, and we have actually not gotten
10 any names or statements of the Defence witnesses, and there should also be
11 a deadline for doing this. So we at the moment cannot prepare at all for
12 the Defence case.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, you're entitled to that before the commencement
14 of the Defence case. That's as far as the rules seem to take it still.
15 When do you propose to give us the documents that are required
16 under Rule 65 ter (G), that is, the list of the witnesses you intend to
17 call, the name or pseudonym, the summary of the facts to be testified by
18 the witness, identifying the points in the indictment as to which each
19 witness will testify, and the estimated length of time required for each
20 witness, and a list of exhibits that you intend to offer in your case?
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has witness
22 statements. They are being translated. I think that will be finished by
23 the end of this week. Immediately upon our arrival in Yugoslavia, we
24 will make a list of witnesses, a list of exhibits, and we will forward
25 that to the office of the Prosecutor, and by all means, we will have
1 copies ready for the both the Trial Chamber and the Office of the
2 Prosecutor before the beginning of the Pre-Trial Conference.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, yes, but some time in advance of the Pre-Trial
4 Conference, if possible. If we are going to have that conference on the
5 Thursday, then I suggest we should have these documents required by Rule
6 65 ter (G) by at least the Monday or the Tuesday of that week. They can
7 be sent by fax. You don't have to be here to file them, but we do need
8 them so that we know what it is we're going to discuss at the Pre-Defence
9 Conference. That will give you about three weeks to get them prepared.
10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it may be my mistake.
11 Maybe I wasn't precise enough. I said that in the first week upon our
12 arrival in Yugoslavia, the Defence will prepare and send all of these
13 things, and I added that it will be before the Pre-Defence Conference.
14 But of course, I meant we will have this entire documentation completed
15 and delivered by the end of the first week after the end of the
16 Prosecution case.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that should be sufficient. That should be more
18 than sufficient, and we'll grateful to you for that, Mr. Bakrac. Is there
19 anything else we can deal with here, or we start the next witness at 2.30?
20 Very well, then. Thank you. We'll adjourn now until 2.30.
21 I'm sorry, there was one other thing, and that's the medical
22 examination of the accused. Have we got any documents for that yet?
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The expert of the Prosecution has not
24 received yet any information from the Defence expert. That is at least my
25 information that I got last week. It may be different now.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 JUDGE HUNT: Perhaps you could discuss it over lunch hour.
2 --- Luncheon recess taken at it 1.02 p.m.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo. This is your next witness, is it?
4 MS. KUO: Yes, the witness needs to have his headphones on, and
5 also he needs to make the solemn declaration.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Would you stand up, please, sir, and will you
7 make the solemn declaration in the terms of the document that's being
8 shown to you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE HUNT: There are no microphones on. Better start again, I'm
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: FWS-89
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, sir. The pseudonym document will
18 be Exhibit P442, and it will be under seal.
19 Yes, Ms. Kuo.
20 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, may I request that the courtroom door
21 be closed.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
23 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
24 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, would you please pull your chair up
25 closer to the microphone so we can all hear you. Thank you.
1 Before you is a piece of paper. Could you please take a look at
2 the paper? That has been identified and entered in evidence as Exhibit
3 P442. On it is FWS-89. Underneath that, is that your name?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Underneath your name, is that your date of birth?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. Throughout the trial we will not refer to you by
8 name, but use this number.
9 Now, sir, in 1992, can you tell us where you lived, what town and
10 what neighbourhood?
11 A. I lived in the town of Foca in the [redacted]
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpret's note, could the witness please come
14 closer to the microphone.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, the interpreters are having a great deal of
16 difficulty hearing you. Could you move your chair up, and the usher,
17 would you please move the microphones closer to the witness.
18 MS. KUO: The microphones could be moved closer to the witness so
19 he doesn't have to lean so far. Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 MS. KUO:
22 Q. Witness, in 1992, what kind of work were you doing?
23 A. I worked at the [redacted] factory in [redacted]. I worked as a
25 Q. Could you tell us whether you were married and whether you had
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many children did you have?
4 A. Three.
5 Q. What ethnicity are you?
6 A. Muslim.
7 Q. Sir, when the war in Foca started on the 8th of April, 1992, did
8 you go to work?
9 A. Yes. I went to work, but I didn't work. It was impossible to
11 Q. Why was it impossible?
12 A. Not everybody who was supposed to come to work came to work, so
13 all of us who did come could not work.
14 Q. Were you able to go home that day?
15 A. Well, I did go to the bank that day. I got some money there, and
16 I went to a relative's place to visit, and I spent some time there that
18 Q. Why did you stay with your relative rather than going home to your
20 A. Well, I stayed there with them for a while. I happened to be
21 there, and then I didn't manage to get back home.
22 Q. How many days did you spend with your relative?
23 A. One day.
24 Q. Where did you go the next day?
25 A. The next day we went to the house of Avdo. There were about 17 of
1 us there, including myself.
2 Q. Was your family there with you?
3 A. No. No, my family was at the apartment.
4 Q. Of the 17 of you, what ethnicity were you?
5 A. We were Muslims.
6 Q. Why were you gathered at that house?
7 A. Well, we were put up there because we were supposed to be safe
8 there. I mean, so that no one would mistreat us or anything.
9 Q. Who put you there?
10 A. Bozo Dostic put us up there.
11 Q. Who is Bozo Dostic? What capacity or what authority did he have
12 to put you there?
13 A. What can I tell you? He must have had some kind of orders to put
14 us up there so that it would be safer for us so that nobody would touch
15 us, so that nobody would mistreat us, so that somebody from the outside
16 wouldn't come to provoke us.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness's
18 microphone be brought closer.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Usher, will you see what you can do. Just
20 point them directly to him. Move the base towards him.
21 Now, sir, the interpreters are having great difficulty in hearing
22 you. If you could just throw our voice out a bit more. I can only barely
23 hear you as a whisper from here without the microphones, so speak up a
24 little bit, please.
25 THE USHER: Shall I make a test, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE HUNT: Just see how this goes.
2 MS. KUO:
3 Q. Witness, we know that you're very nervous about being here, but if
4 you could try to relax and speak a little bit more loudly. It's important
5 for us to hear you.
6 Was Mr. Dostic in military uniform, and was he armed?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were you told that it would be dangerous for you to be outside, or
9 could you see it for yourself?
10 A. Well, what can I tell you? It was safer for me to stay there than
11 to go anywhere on my own.
12 Q. Were you able to see any houses being burned outside?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell whose houses were being burned?
15 A. These were the houses in the neighbourhood where I was, Kamerici.
16 Q. Could you tell whether they were houses belonging to Muslims or to
18 A. Muslims.
19 Q. Were you able to visit your family at all during the time that you
20 stayed in this house?
21 A. What can I tell you? I asked Bozo Dostic to do me a favour, if
22 possible. To take me to my family so that I could see them and visit
24 Q. How far was your family from where you were, from this house?
25 A. Well, what can I tell you? About 20 minutes.
1 Q. And did Bozo take you to that -- to see your family?
2 A. He said to me that I should wait for a while, that he would talk
3 to Ivanovic to see whether he can allow me to do so.
4 Q. Who was Ivanovic?
5 A. Boro Ivanovic.
6 Q. Do you know what role he played during this time?
7 A. What can I tell you? He was probably some kind of a commander.
8 Q. Were you taken to see your family at some point?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When was that? Do you remember the date?
11 A. The date was the 24th of April.
12 Q. How did you get there? Did you go by yourself, or did someone go
13 with you?
14 A. Bozo Dostic went with me, and another soldier whose name I did not
15 know. I did not know him.
16 Q. How long did you stay with your family?
17 A. I stayed there for an hour while we had a cup of coffee. That was
19 Q. Were you able to see your wife and your daughters?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why didn't you stay more than an hour?
22 A. He said to me that it wasn't safe for me to stay there because
23 somebody could come there to provoke me for some reason.
24 Q. Who said that?
25 A. Bozo Dostic.
1 Q. Where did he take you?
2 A. He took me to the KP Dom.
3 Q. Did he say why he was taking you to the KP Dom?
4 A. He said that it was for my safety, for my security, that I would
5 be safer there than if I stayed at home.
6 Q. While you were at Avdo's house, were you provoked?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know why you were taken to KP Dom rather than being taken
9 to Avdo's house?
10 A. Well, he told me I would be safer there and that there would be
11 greater security than at Avdo's house.
12 Q. That's what Mr. Dostic told you, right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How long were you kept at KP Dom?
15 A. I last went to the KP Dom on the 5th, on the 5th -- or, no, on the
16 10th of May, 1994.
17 Q. Were you ever given the option of leaving KP Dom?
18 A. No.
19 Q. When did your family leave Foca?
20 A. My family left Foca on the 8th of August, 1992. Actually, the
21 19th of August.
22 Q. Were you able to leave with them?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You said you were brought -- you were told that you were being
25 brought to KP Dom for your safety. Was it safe for you at KP Dom?
1 A. Well, what can I tell you? For me personally, it was better,
2 safer, than had I stayed at home.
3 Q. Why was that?
4 A. For my personal safety.
5 Q. What was the danger for you had you stayed at home?
6 A. You don't know who can come during the night or at any time.
7 Anybody could come and provoke you, although I was not involved in
8 anything, and I didn't have anything. Somebody could have come to provoke
9 me, though.
10 Q. When you were taken to KP Dom, what room were you placed in?
11 A. When I was taken to the KP Dom, I was put into Room 12.
12 Q. How long did you stay in Room 12?
13 A. In Room 12 I stayed there about 20 days.
14 Q. After 20 days, where were you taken?
15 A. After 20 days, I was transferred to Room 16.
16 Q. Do you know why you were moved to Room 16?
17 A. I was transferred because I was supposed to work.
18 Q. Did you volunteer to work, or were you told that you had to work?
19 A. I volunteered to work.
20 Q. Why did you volunteer?
21 A. Because I felt that time would pass more quickly if I worked, if I
22 did something, rather than doing nothing at all.
23 Q. What kind of work did you do?
24 A. I worked in the heating room, that is to say, where the stove for
25 the kitchen was.
1 Q. Was the heating used to heat water and food in the kitchen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did that heating also include heating for room temperature in the
4 other buildings?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you have access to warm water because of your involvement with
7 the heating?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Did other detainees have access to the warm water?
10 A. Well, what can I tell you? They did not. Most of them did not.
11 Q. Did you ever have -- do you know how -- whether there was any
12 source of heating for the rooms in either the prisoners' quarters or in
13 the administrative building?
14 A. I don't think so.
15 Q. Did you ever see any electric heating appliances?
16 A. Well, perhaps there were some. If they had any, they didn't use
18 Q. Did you ever see in the offices in the administrative building
19 electric heating appliances?
20 A. Well, what can I tell you? I did not spend that much time at the
21 administration building, but those who were doing the cleaning there said
23 Q. While you were detained at the KP Dom, were there also Serb
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Were they kept separate from the Muslim and Croat detainees?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know why the Serb prisoners were in the KP Dom?
4 A. Well, what can I tell you? Perhaps because of their disobedience.
5 Q. Disobedience to what?
6 A. Maybe they had orders.
7 Q. Do you know why they were there, or are you just guessing?
8 A. No, I am sure some of them didn't want to go to the front line, or
9 others gave them trouble, so that's why they brought them.
10 Q. Were there Serb prisoners who had been convicted of crimes that
11 were not military crimes?
12 A. Well, what can I tell you? I think that those who committed some
13 kind of violation were there.
14 Q. Witness, do you know whether the Serb prisoners were all kept
15 together, or was there any separation among the Serb prisoners between
16 those who had violated military rules and laws and those who had violated
17 civilian laws?
18 A. What I can say is that they were in the same building, but perhaps
19 they were in different rooms.
20 Q. Were the Serb prisoners treated differently from the Muslim and
21 Croat detainees?
22 A. What can I tell you? They certainly had access that was a bit
23 better than that that the Muslims had.
24 Q. What kind of access?
25 A. Well, they could go out, take a walk. They could meet. Things
1 like that.
2 Q. During the time that you were at the KP Dom, were you ever
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you mistreated during your interrogation?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you know whether other detainees were mistreated during
9 A. I heard from others that they were.
10 Q. When you say from others, do you mean from the detainees
11 themselves who were mistreated? They told you about what happened to
13 A. Izet Hadzimesic.
14 Q. What about him?
15 A. He went to make a statement. He said to me that Burilo had kicked
17 Q. Did anyone else tell you that they were mistreated during
19 MS. KUO: I didn't hear an interpretation.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear anything.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Indeed, I didn't hear the witness say a thing.
22 MS. KUO:
23 Q. I'll repeat the question. Did anyone else tell you that they were
24 mistreated during interrogation?
25 A. No.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 Q. Did you ever hear the sound of anyone being beaten?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever see any detainees with injuries?
4 A. Once I saw Salko Mandzo.
5 Q. What did you see on him?
6 A. His face was cut up.
7 Q. Where on his face were the cuts?
8 A. Here.
9 MS. KUO: The Witness is indicating on the right side of his face,
10 the upper cheek near the eye. For the Court's reference, Salko Mandzo is
11 listed in the indictment at paragraph 5.28.
12 Q. Witness, did you see anyone else with injuries?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you know a person named Mr. Cedic?
15 A. Cedic?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Ekinda. Cedic
18 Q. Do you know if he was ever injured?
19 A. I did not see him.
20 Q. Do you know Nurko Nisic?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Did you ever see any injuries on him, or did you ever learn what
23 happened to him?
24 A. He had injuries -- he was taken from the room where he was
25 detained because we were not together, not in the same room.
1 Q. How do you know that he was taken from the room, then, if you
2 weren't in the same room with him?
3 A. I was told by the people who were with him.
4 Q. Do you know what happened to him?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Did you ever hear people screaming or moaning while you were at
7 the KP Dom?
8 A. I was separated. I was in a different block, and I couldn't hear
10 Q. Which block were you in? You said that first you were in Room 12
11 and then you were in Room 16. When you say you were in a different block,
12 what are you referring to?
13 A. I mean a different building, a different part of the building.
14 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the
15 witness shown Exhibit 6/1.
16 Q. Witness, would you please look at the diagram, and if I could
17 orient you, on the bottom half of the picture is the administrative
18 building, and the top half of the picture are the prisoners' quarters.
19 When you just said you were in a different block, could you tell us or
20 show us where that was?
21 Witness, you're moving the pointer around so I'm not sure if
22 you've decided or you're indicating yet or you're still looking. Could
23 you please just rest the pointer on the place, if you can find it, and
24 then tell us where.
25 A. This is the place where I was, in Room 16.
1 MS. KUO: The witness is pointing to the building 2, the back part
2 of it. Thank you.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I followed the monitor.
4 I didn't see the transcript, but it says in translation the back part of
5 the building. The witness did not show -- did not indicate the back part
6 of the building but the front part, and perhaps it's better for us to see
7 the photograph, to have it shown to us by the Prosecutor.
8 JUDGE HUNT: I think what Ms. Kuo meant was it was not in the part
9 of the building that protrudes out, but what one of the witness I remember
10 referred to was building 3, not that it was at the back of the building
11 but at the back section of the building, and he was definitely pointing to
13 That's all you meant, was it not, Ms. Kuo.
14 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour, to differentiate it from the part of
15 the building that is sticking out to the front.
16 JUDGE HUNT: That's right. On one of those photographs, whose
17 number I don't remember, it is shown with a figure 3 on it, and one
18 witness described it as building 3 throughout.
19 That's all. I think we've got it clear now what he was pointing
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is clear now. I
22 received the interpretation, and it would have otherwise been noted in the
23 transcript that it's the back part of the building, but it's clarified
25 MS. KUO: Thank you. We won't need this exhibit any more.
1 Q. Witness, were there ever detainees taken from the rooms who were
2 not returned?
3 A. There were such cases, certainly.
4 Q. Do you -- can you tell us the names of people who were taken out
5 and not returned?
6 A. What shall I say? I cannot remember everyone. Nurko Nisic, Salem
7 Bico, Emin Krso, Rasim Merkez.
8 Q. Witness, let me direct your attention a little bit more
9 specifically. In -- were a group of detainees ever taken out and told
10 that they would pick plums?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember when that was?
13 A. That was in September.
14 Q. What year?
15 A. 1992.
16 Q. Are you able to tell us the names of the people who were taken out
17 in that group?
18 A. What shall I say? I cannot enumerate.
19 Q. Is there anything that we can show you that would help you
20 remember their names?
21 A. I suppose if I could see some kind of paper, if I could have it to
22 look at.
23 Q. Did you give a statement to investigators of the Office of the
24 Prosecutor on the 13th and 14th of February, 1996, in which you gave the
25 names of some people in this group?
1 A. Yes, but I cannot remember the names now.
2 Q. If we showed you a copy of your statement, would that help you
3 remember their names?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have this
6 witness shown ID 179A, and it will be page 8.
7 Q. Witness, when you gave the names of these people that are listed
8 on page 8 as being part of the group taken to pick plums, did you remember
9 those names, and did you give those names to the investigator to write
10 down? Were those the names that you gave the investigator as being part
11 of the plum-picking group?
12 A. What can I say? I gave those names then, but maybe some of these
13 people shouldn't be here because a lot of time has gone by and one cannot
14 really remember everyone.
15 Q. When you gave that list of people to the investigators, was that
16 based on your memory, and was it accurate at that time?
17 JUDGE HUNT: I think you mean, did he believe it to be accurate at
18 that time.
19 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
20 A. This is the number that was said to be taken to pick plums.
21 Q. You mean the number 36, that there were 36 detainees taken out?
22 A. That's the story told by those who were in the compound, that the
23 number of prisoners was 36.
24 Q. When you gave these names of the people that are listed there, on
25 what basis did you give those names? How did you know that these people
1 were taken out as part of that group of 36?
2 A. Well, I gave those names as I remembered certain people, but
3 perhaps I failed to remember other people. Maybe some of the people here
4 were not among them. I don't know any more, because a lot of time has
5 gone by.
6 Q. Very well, then. We'll move on.
7 Witness, I wanted to ask you if you feel all right because you're
8 not looking very well. Do you need a break, or should we continue?
9 A. Can we have a break?
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, certainly, sir. Perhaps if usher could take him
11 out for a little while, and see if you can find out, usher, how long he
12 thinks he's going to need once you've got him outside?
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE HUNT: You certainly have been making heavy weather of it,
15 if I may put it that way, and it may be that he's just not well but I've
16 asked the usher how long he's going to need. We may just wait here for a
17 moment until we find out.
18 Well, the Victims and Witnesses Unit -- I'm sorry, section, has
19 been called in. We'll let you know when we hear something, but we'll take
20 an adjournment now.
21 --- Break taken at 3.22 p.m.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Are you feeling better now, sir? The witness did say
25 something. You didn't hear it?
1 THE INTERPRETER: No, really.
2 JUDGE HUNT: I think he said "yes."
3 Would you say something else? Would you give us your name -- not
4 your name; your number. Can you just say "89" so that we can check the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Good. We can hear now? Thank you.
8 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.
9 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Witness, could you please pull your chair up a little bit more
11 toward the microphone so that we hear everything you have to say. Thank
13 Witness, were you ever taken outside KP Dom to do any work?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where were you taken?
16 A. We were taken to the farm.
17 Q. Where was the farm located?
18 A. It was about four kilometres away from the KP Dom.
19 Q. When did you begin working at the farm?
20 A. I worked during the season. It was spring, and we had to sow.
21 Q. Spring of which year?
22 A. 1993.
23 Q. When did you stop working at the farm?
24 A. When I stopped working? I stopped sometime about -- it was
1 Q. Of 1993; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where did you go after that? Did you go someplace else in
4 September 1993?
5 A. We went to cut grass, collect hay.
6 Q. How long did you do that?
7 A. During the season, about two months.
8 Q. And after those two months, where did you go?
9 A. After the two months I worked for six months at the mine.
10 Q. When did you stop working at the mine?
11 A. 1993.
12 Q. You said you worked six months at the mine. Where did you go
13 after the mine?
14 A. We went to the farm. I worked at the farm then.
15 Q. Was that spring of 1994?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you worked at the farm the spring into the summer of 1993, and
18 then again in the spring of 1994; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What kind of work did you do at the farm?
21 A. We planted potatoes, onions, maize.
22 Q. Were there also livestock at the farm?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What kind of livestock was there?
25 A. Small livestock. There were cows, pigs, hens.
1 Q. Did the hens produce eggs?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did the cows produce milk?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know if there was enough food for the livestock?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was livestock ever slaughtered for meat?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you were working at the farm, were you able to eat any of the
10 food produced at the farm?
11 A. We had eggs, we had milk, meat.
12 Q. The people who did not work at the farm, did they have any food,
13 the food that you described: the eggs, meat?
14 A. Yes. They received eggs for breakfast.
15 Q. Do you know what time period that was? Was that in 1993 or 1994?
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] This is a leading question. Why not
19 1992? It says "1993 or 1994." If he was in the KP Dom from 1992, then
20 why shouldn't it be 1992?
21 JUDGE HUNT: There are three, three questions asked in the one
22 question, which in itself would make it objectionable, I think, Ms. Kuo.
23 Ask him just when it happened, without suggesting any particular range of
25 But I have to say, it is not a leading question; it is an
1 objectionable question because there is more than one question involved
2 in it.
3 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I was making the assumption
4 that it was during the time that he worked at the farm, but let me ask the
5 question more generally.
6 Q. Witness, you said that people who did not work at the farm also
7 received eggs for breakfast. Could you tell us when that was, what year
8 or years?
9 A. Yes. It was in 1992, 1993, 1994.
10 Q. Do you know where the food -- was all the food at the farm being
11 sent to the KP Dom?
12 A. What can I say? Some of it went to civilians in town, probably.
13 Q. When you say it went to civilians, how do you know that?
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] -- it's not only civilians. Some of
17 that food also went to civilians, and then the next question comes, how do
18 you know that food went to civilians?
19 JUDGE HUNT: Look, Mr. Bakrac, perhaps we're getting too close to
20 the end of the Prosecution case, but you are being a little
21 over-particular. There is no suggestion in Ms. Kuo's question that it
22 only went to civilians. She is asking him how he knows it went to
23 civilians, i.e., amongst others. There's nothing wrong with that
25 May I suggest you just count to ten before you object to a
1 question? Really, that is unworthy of you, that one. There's nothing
2 wrong with that question at all.
3 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.
4 MS. KUO:
5 Q. I'll repeat the question, Witness. How do you know that the food,
6 at least some of it, was going to the civilians?
7 A. I know because my family was -- they left on the 19th of August,
8 1992, and their neighbours had brought them eggs and milk.
9 Q. The neighbours who brought your family eggs and milk, were they
10 Muslim or Serb?
11 A. Serbs.
12 Q. Do you know whether Muslims in town had access to eggs and milk,
13 if it was not provided by Serbs?
14 A. What shall I say? If they were giving them, they probably had
16 Q. And otherwise? Were Muslims able to freely get eggs and milk?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you were on the farm, were there Serb prisoners working on
19 the farm as well?
20 A. Yes, some, a part of them.
21 Q. Were you kept -- were the Muslims detainees who were working at
22 the farm kept separately from the Serb prisoners who were working at the
23 farm at the same time, while you were working at the farm?
24 A. We worked together.
25 Q. Who were your supervisors at the farm?
1 A. The foreman was Rade and Veljko, Veljko Kovac and Rade Begenisic.
2 MS. KUO: Your Honour, Rade Begenisic is listed on P-3 at number
3 77, and Veljko Kovac is P-3 at number 39.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
5 MS. KUO:
6 Q. Do you know who employed them to be the foremen at the KP Dom?
7 A. Well, they worked there before while there was freedom.
8 Q. Were they employed by the KP Dom at this time; do you know?
9 A. They certainly were.
10 Q. Did they wear civilian clothes or military uniforms?
11 A. Sometimes they wore civilian clothes and sometimes they wore
12 military clothes.
13 Q. Do you know Radojica Tesovic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who was he?
16 A. He was warden of the KP Dom before.
17 Q. Before what?
18 A. Before the war.
19 Q. Do you know why he was not warden during the war?
20 A. What can I tell you? Maybe the man didn't want to take that job
21 for some reason.
22 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Tesovic during the war?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When?
25 A. At the farm when we worked there. He came to see us, to see how
1 we were working, how the sowing was going on and the digging of potatoes,
2 onions, maize.
3 Q. Could you tell what kind of position or authority he had when he
4 came to see you at the farm?
5 A. What can I say? He probably came because he was warden before,
6 and he knew how things were supposed to be done, and he wanted to see how
7 the production was getting along.
8 Q. Was he still employed by the KP Dom during the times that you saw
9 him at the farm?
10 A. Since he was coming, he certainly had some kind of obligation to
12 Q. Do you remember whether you saw Mr. Tesovic when you worked at the
13 farm in 1993, in 1994, or both times?
14 A. Both 1993 and 1994.
15 Q. Was there a director of the farm? You've mentioned the foremen,
16 but were there people who were supervising Mr. Begenisic and Mr. Kovac?
17 A. The director of the farm? I can't remember. I don't seem to
18 remember that there was a director of the farm.
19 Q. Do you know someone named Vojislav Maksimovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you tell us what position or authority he had during this
23 A. He was in the SDS, for sure.
24 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Maksimovic at the farm?
25 A. Once he came to visit.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts
1 Q. Was he accompanied by other KP Dom -- by KP Dom personnel?
2 A. What can I tell you? There were some civilians who were present,
3 who were together with him.
4 Q. Do you remember if anyone in particular was showing him around?
5 A. Possibly it was Savo Todovic.
6 Q. Do you know what position Savo Todovic had, if any?
7 A. He was in charge of the work there as an official.
8 Q. Work where?
9 A. Work, I mean the work of persons who worked. He said who should
10 work there.
11 Q. I needed to clarify whether you meant the work at the farm only or
12 the work throughout KP Dom.
13 A. No. I mean the work at the entire KP Dom and at the farm and
14 those who worked in the mine at Miljevina.
15 Q. Do you know Milorad Krnojelac?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How do you know him?
18 A. I know him from before. He was my daughter's teacher at school.
19 He was home-room teacher.
20 Q. Did you ever see Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What did you see him doing at the KP Dom?
23 A. What can I say? I heard that he was warden of the KP Dom.
24 Q. Did you see him, though; and if you saw him, what was he doing?
25 A. Well, he came to see us when we were working, when we were cutting
1 grass, when we were chopping wood, when we were loading this.
2 Q. Did he visit you at the farm when you were working there?
3 A. What can I tell you? Sometimes it may have happened that I never
4 saw him at the farm itself, but I saw him when we were cutting grass,
5 collecting hay, when we were chopping wood, loading this onto trucks.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, the interpreters are still having difficulty
8 hearing you. They did not hear the whole of your answer. I'll read you
9 what they have said, what they have actually translated, and if you wanted
10 to add something, please do so. "Sometimes it may have happened that I
11 never saw him at the farm itself, but I saw him when we were cutting
12 grass, collecting hay, when we were chopping wood, loading this onto
13 trucks." Now, that's all that they heard, but you did go on to say
14 something. Do you want to add to that answer?
15 A. I don't know what you didn't understand.
16 JUDGE HUNT: It's what they didn't hear is the problem, sir. Do
17 you want to add anything to that answer that I read out to you?
18 A. Could you repeat what you didn't hear?
19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, I think we may do better tomorrow.
20 MS. KUO: Yes, I think so.
21 JUDGE HUNT: I think we'll take the adjournment now.
22 May I remind you that we are starting half an hour later tomorrow
23 morning. We're starting at 10 with that witness whose evidence is coming
24 in on videolink so that this witness will come in after him. We'll be
25 sitting from 10 until 11.30, and then from 12 until 1.30, and from 3.00
1 until 4.30. I'm sorry if this will upset your digestion, but it's a
2 necessity, I'm afraid.
3 We'll see you tomorrow at 10.00.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.55 p.m., to
5 be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of
6 March, 2001, at 10 a.m.