1 Wednesday, 28
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Now, we have Witness 49. Sir, would you please make
9 the solemn declaration in the document which is being shown to you on the
11 I hope that it is being shown on the screen.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir.
15 WITNESS: NEZIR CENGIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 [Witness testified via videolink]
18 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
19 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examined by Ms. Kuo:
21 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me?
22 A. I can.
23 Q. Could you tell us your name, please?
24 A. Nezir Cengic.
25 Q. Could you tell us when you were born?
1 A. 1st February, 1914.
2 Q. Mr. Cengic, in 1992, where were you living?
3 A. I lived in the village of Rataja, Miljevina municipality in Foca.
4 Q. Were you working at that time?
5 A. No. How could I work? I was retired. I had my own livestock and
6 chicken in the country, in my village.
7 Q. Did you live with anyone or did you live alone?
8 A. I lived alone. I had two sons in Sarajevo, but I was there alone.
9 Q. What is your ethnicity, sir?
10 A. Muslim.
11 Q. When the war in Foca started on the 8th of April, 1992, did that
12 have an effect on you in Miljevina?
13 A. No. We lived very nicely. We were born together there, us and
14 Serbs. That was until the 17th of August. Then we were deprived of
15 freedom, locked up, made to suffer.
16 Q. Before the 17th of August, could you see any destruction being
17 caused by the war?
18 A. How could I not see? Of course I saw it. Everyone was killed.
19 Q. Could you see nearby villages burning?
20 A. Yes, of course I saw it. There are dozens of villages around.
21 All of them were aflame. Everything that could burn, burned.
22 Q. Could you give us the names of the villages that you saw burning?
23 A. Govza number 1, Govza number 2, Jelec, Drace, Poljice, Banjine,
24 Izbisno, Mrdjanovici; all of them I saw burning.
25 Q. On the 17th of August, 1992, what happened to you?
1 A. Nothing. I just went to feed my -- I was going to feed my cattle
2 and give them water. A policeman stopped me in the yard. He deprived me
3 of freedom and that's how I stayed with him.
4 Q. What did he say when he stopped you?
5 A. He didn't tell me anything. He just told me I was deprived of
6 freedom, and all of us who were around, we were rounded up and taken to
7 the police station.
8 Q. How many people were rounded up with you?
9 A. From that village, we were -- we were five.
10 Q. What ethnicity were the five of you?
11 A. All Muslims.
12 Q. What happened when you were taken to the police station?
13 A. Everyone was taken there, and I was called out immediately and
14 that soldier, what his rank was I don't know, he said, "Stand at
15 attention," and then he hit me with his rifle on my back. I was 72 years
16 old. I fainted. I started swearing at him, "How dare you beat me? If
17 only my children found out about this." Then two of them started beating
18 me, kicking me from both sides, and then I fainted again. When I came to,
19 they were not there any more, and I joined the other four too in prison.
20 Q. The two who were beating you, were they both soldiers?
21 A. Some of them were in camouflage uniforms, Some of them were in
22 olive-green/grey uniforms.
23 Q. Do you know what ethnicity those soldiers were who were beating
25 A. How could I know? I didn't dare say a word. They did whatever
1 they pleased with us. They beat us. They beat me unconscious because
2 probably somebody told them that I had money and valuables, but I wasn't
3 saying a word because I thought if I say something, they're going to beat
4 me again and ask for money.
5 Q. Did they say anything to you about your being Muslim?
6 A. No. They didn't say anything, and we didn't say a word. They did
7 whatever they wanted. They broke our bones, beat us, and so on. And then
8 I was transferred to hospital. The others stayed at the KP Dom, the four
9 of them, another couple of days.
10 Q. Before we get to your transfer to the hospital, let's go back to
11 when you were brought to join the other four people. Please give us the
12 names of the other four people.
13 A. There was Fehim Cengic, Sucro Softic. Both of them are dead now.
14 Q. And the names of the other two?
15 A. There was Hilmo Cengic and Klino Mustafa.
16 Q. Were any of them related to you?
17 A. The Cengics were related to me and Klino wasn't.
18 Q. Did you spend that night in the police station?
19 A. Yes. And in the morning, they came to take me again. They took
20 me to my home because they wanted gold coins and valuables and money, and
21 they didn't take the others, just me.
22 Q. Who took you back to your home?
23 A. Two soldiers. We got into a car, and they drove me to my home.
24 Q. What did they do when you arrived at your home?
25 A. What did they do? The house was opened. It stayed opened, and
1 that's the way it was all night. Everybody took what they wanted. I
2 told them, "You go in and take whatever you want." I gave them the money
3 I had on me, and they said, "Don't tell anyone, because we'll cut your
4 throat." I said I didn't know anything. I only had my shirt and my
5 overcoat on and that's how I spent the night. If I were not a Muslim, I'd
6 have paid them back, because Muslims are defended to do so by their faith,
7 and I couldn't do it.
8 Q. What did the soldiers do --
9 A. I would have killed myself.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologizes.
11 A. I would have killed myself if my faith allowed it.
12 MS. KUO:
13 Q. After the soldiers took your money and things from your house,
14 where did they take you?
15 A. Again to the police station.
16 Q. While they took you, or on your way to the police station, did
17 they say anything or do anything to you?
18 A. They took me to the police station. They called me out again and
19 then they beat and beat me until I showed signs of life. Then I fainted.
20 I don't know what else was going on. I was unconscious.
21 Q. Before that, did they put any item of clothing on you, like a hat?
22 A. Yes. They put a cap on me, fez, and they told me to speak, but
23 they told me to say on television what they wanted me to say.
24 Q. Was there anything written on the fez?
25 A. Was there anything written? No, nothing was written on the fez.
1 What could have been written?
2 Q. Do you know what the meaning was when they put the fez on your
4 A. That I should say on television what they wanted me to say.
5 Q. Did you go on television?
6 A. On television, I didn't. I was in hospital for 50 days. I
7 couldn't lie down because my ribs and my bones hurt. What do you mean,
9 Q. You said that they said you had to say what they wanted you to say
10 on television, so my question was did you actually do that?
11 A. No. They didn't take me. How could they have? Because I went to
12 the hospital. I was beaten up silly.
13 Q. Did they say what they wanted you to say on television? Or just
14 everything that they told you that they would tell you to say?
15 A. No. No, no. When they put this fez on me, they just said that I
16 should repeat what they were saying after them.
17 Q. And what were they saying that you had to repeat?
18 A. I didn't quite understand what you just said.
19 Q. You said that after they put the fez on you, they told you to
20 repeat what they were saying. What were they saying that you were asked
21 to repeat? Did they say anything that they asked you to repeat?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What did they say that you had to repeat?
24 A. They were driving me in front of them. There was no television.
25 They were taking me to Foca.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last sentence.
2 MS. KUO:
3 Q. Sir, we didn't hear the last sentence, the last part of what you
4 said. Could you repeat it so the interpreters can hear you?
5 A. I didn't get television. As soon as I got to the police station,
6 and the same thing again; he called me out, they beat me, I fell on my
7 back and they continued beating me until I showed signs of life. Then I
8 was transferred to the hospital where I remained unconscious. That was in
9 the hospital in Foca. Did you hear me now?
10 Q. Yes. Thank you, sir. Who told the soldiers to take you to the
12 A. My God. How can you ask that? I don't know who said what
13 because I was unconscious. I had fainted.
14 Q. Did one of your neighbours come to the police station?
15 A. Neighbours, what neighbours?
16 Q. Do you know Ilija Goljanin?
17 A. Yes, I know Ilija Goljanin. That is my next-door neighbour. His
18 father died, and he completed some course, he worked as a doctor. And
19 once I told my neighbour to tell Ilija to come because I was beaten up. I
20 don't remember whether I got together with the neighbour or with Ilija,
21 but --
22 Q. Did that neighbour come to the police station and ask that you be
23 taken to the hospital?
24 A. I don't know. I wasn't aware of anything. I was unconscious.
25 Somebody came. I was unconscious. Somebody approached me. I said,
1 "Please go away. I'm -- don't. I'm tired enough as it is. I'm 72 years
2 old." Just a second. I'm 88 years old.
3 Q. What kind of treatment did you receive at the hospital?
4 A. It was a doctor who was treating me.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot understand this. Can you
6 please stop the witness here?
7 MS. KUO:
8 Q. Witness. Witness, the interpreter can't hear you at all. You
9 have to start again, and please move closer to the microphone, if that's
11 A. Okay. Okay. I am -- I have come closer now. I can repeat it.
12 Q. The question was: What kind of treatment did you receive at the
14 A. A lady doctor treated me. I got oxygen straight away and then I
15 received tranquilisers. Then I got tea. It returned me back to life. I
16 asked where I was. This woman who treated me, she stayed there until
17 midnight and only then did she go home. She treated me for 10 or 15
18 days. Then a Chetnik came to the hospital, carrying a knife. He wanted
19 to cut my throat. And then I had to go to the KP Dom at 10.00 p.m. at
20 night because, otherwise, they would have killed me. There was no army to
21 protect me.
22 Q. What day was it when this person came to the hospital?
23 A. Oh, God, if only I could have brains enough to remember. I don't
24 even know when. I didn't take any notes. I think it was in September,
25 and which date it was, I don't know. It was September 1992.
1 Q. When you say a Chetnik came, can you tell us what you mean by
3 A. Well, what else can I explain to you? They were treating us
4 there, and he came to slit our throats. What else do you need to know?
5 She was crying there, and he told her that he was fighting us.
6 Fighting me? Eighty-eight years old, barely able to walk.
7 Q. Was the person you described as a Chetnik in uniform?
8 A. Yes. He was wearing a soldier's uniform. He went there to visit
9 his colleague. He was up there, fighting, and his cousin had -- was
10 wounded. There were three other people there with me, they were
11 incapacitated, and that was at the time when Foca fell.
12 The doctor called the police and the police defended us. I
13 tried -- they tried three times again that night, and they didn't let us
14 stay in the hospital; we had to go to the KP Dom.
15 Q. When you said that this person came with a knife and threatened to
16 cut you, did he actually injure you?
17 A. Yes. He hit me with a chair, and he took off my shoulder blade
18 from the right shoulder. I was in such pain. It was worse than if he had
19 broken my arm. And the other one was beating with his fists. They must
20 have both been mad or something.
21 Q. When you say "the other one," was that person also in uniform?
22 A. The other one. Did I say "the other one"? There was one Chetnik,
23 and the doctor was doing her rounds, and she said he wanted to slit our
24 throats. Then she called the police, started crying, and that's how it
25 happened. The police came, and she, the doctor, didn't dare leave us
1 there for the night. She had to -- we had to be sent to the KP Dom.
2 Q. Were you beaten by one person or by two people? I just wanted to
3 clarify that because it sounded like there was some -- it wasn't clear to
5 A. One person came. One Chetnik came to visit his comrade. He was
6 only one, I never mentioned two.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Thank you too.
9 Q. Did he say anything while he beat you?
10 A. What do I know whether he was saying something? I don't even know
11 what I'm saying.
12 Q. Did he call you Ustasha?
13 A. It could have been. He could have called me Ustasha, I don't
14 know. He could have called me anything. He was speaking -- talking to
16 Q. Who took you to the KP Dom?
17 A. A car took us, and a driver.
18 Q. You said earlier that they tried three times to do something.
19 Could you tell us what that was?
20 A. Three times he came to that room where we were to slit our throats
21 and to beat us, but he was thrown out all three times. He didn't come
22 there to visit me or bring me a present. He came there to kill me. And
23 he almost did. It would have been better if they had killed me,
24 better than this suffering I'm going through today.
25 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom, where were you taken?
1 A. I was taken to the place where my folks were, in that room.
2 Q. What room was that? What floor was it in?
3 A. How do I know? I wasn't counting floors. I wasn't interested.
4 It was high up. And I got out, and they were -- they had been in an
5 isolation cell from Miljevina. One of them was blind, one of them was a
6 military invalid, and there were another two who were beaten. That's it.
7 Q. When you say you were taken to the room where your folks were,
8 what do you mean? Who else was there already?
9 A. The one with whom I was taken away from my village. I've already
10 told you. Why should I repeat this ten times? I already told who I was
11 taken away with.
12 We were taken to the police station, and they had stayed there
13 while I was in the hospital.
14 Q. Are you talking, then, about the same four people who were at the
15 police station in Miljevina with you? They were already at KP Dom?
16 A. Yes. They had already arrived at the KP Dom.
17 Q. And you said that they were in isolation cell before they were
18 taken to that room; is that right?
19 A. I don't know. They know better where they had been. They told me
20 there was nothing there, it was a bare place, you just walk in. You
21 have to sleep there as well.
22 Q. When you were brought to this room, were there only these four
23 people there or were there other people as well? Sir, were there other
24 people in the room, aside from these four people?
25 A. The four of them, no one else. I didn't hear the number. We who
1 came from the hospital.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the number, how many
3 people came from the hospital.
4 MS. KUO:
5 Q. How many people came with you from the hospital?
6 A. Two.
7 Q. Could you tell us their names?
8 A. I can. Safet Mirzic and - what's his name? - Cocalic Ibro. He's
9 an old man. He's already dead. He had gone for an exchange but he
10 couldn't stand the journey and he died. I think Safet died, too, because
11 he was very ill.
12 Q. Were those two people who were taken -- were those two people you
13 just mentioned also being beaten at the hospital?
14 A. Yes, indeed, they were beaten too.
15 Q. Now, you started telling us -- you told us that of the four people
16 who were already in that room, you said one of them was blind and one of
17 them was a military invalid. Can you explain to us what you mean by --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you explain to us what you mean by "military invalid"?
20 A. He was in the military and then he was discharged from the
21 military as a disabled person.
22 Q. In what way was he disabled?
23 A. Well, he got sick in the military. How can I know? Why are you
24 bothering me with all of this now?
25 Q. Sir, were all the people in that room older and of not good
2 A. Everybody was old and weak and worn out, good for nothing;
4 Q. Sir, how long were you detained at the KP Dom?
5 A. I stayed until the 15th of January, 1993.
6 Q. I'd like to ask you about your release. Before you were released,
7 were you ever called to a meeting or called to somebody's office?
8 A. No. No. I don't remember any such thing.
9 Q. Do you know -- could you tell us the circumstances of your
10 release? Who arranged your release?
11 A. We didn't dare ask anything or say anything. We only dare do what
12 we were ordered to do. The three of us received orders and two shifts
13 left. Thirty people were exchanged. That was one group, and on the 15th
14 [Realtime transcript read in error"309"] of December 13 people left. All
15 of them were young and they said goodbye to us. There were some whom I
16 knew and they have been missing until the present day. Then after that,
17 they called us out. We got into a vehicle and went all the way to
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise. Until now, I was
22 hesitant to react. I thought that I would correct the transcript through
23 the cross-examination. However, there is a number 309 on the 13th page,
24 line 11, and that number is wrong, 309.
25 JUDGE HUNT: I think it's probably the 30th of December, isn't it,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 rather than 309. It may be a typographical error rather than a
2 translation error.
3 Ms. Kuo, do you remember the answer?
4 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: I think the best thing to say, Mr. Bakrac, is that
6 when the transcript is checked this afternoon, they'll pay special
7 attention to that. Did you hear the witness say "309"?
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. That's why I did react, because
9 the witness did not say "309" and the transcript says "309". So that was
10 the point of my objection.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, that will be checked --
12 A. I did not say "309".
13 JUDGE HUNT: That sorts it out. Thank you very much.
14 MS. KUO: Your Honours, perhaps I should go back through that
15 portion because there is a lot of information that needs to be clarified.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
17 MS. KUO:
18 Q. Mr. Cengic, you said that there were two shifts and you mentioned
19 December. Can you tell us when the first of the two shifts that you
20 mentioned occurred, when the first group of people were taken out that you
21 know of?
22 A. I can't say. The first exchange was in December. As for the 15th
23 of December, there are some people I knew there, and they came to say
24 goodbye to me and that's why I remember that. And until the present day,
25 they've been missing, and then people ask me about them too and then I
1 tell them such-and-such a thing were happened. They were taken out for an
2 exchange, and what I could do there? I didn't dare ask anything or say
4 Q. Do you remember the names of anybody taken out on that exchange on
5 the 15th of December?
6 A. I do. There was Ekrem Cengic from Ustikolina, from Cvilin. There
7 was Malkic. I don't know his name exactly. Then there was Lagarija. I
8 don't know what his name was really. He's from Sutjeska. And then also
9 some others that I knew. I can't remember their names now.
10 Q. And you said people have asked you what happened to them. You
11 have never heard from them again; is that right?
12 THE INTERPRETER: "The answer was inaudible," says the witness.
13 A. People are -- people are being looked for, I guess.
14 MS. KUO:
15 Q. Did you know Milorad Krnojelac?
16 A. No, honestly I didn't. Honestly, I didn't, and I don't know him.
17 I had nothing to do with him ever, nor did I ever meet him.
18 Q. Do you know Marko Kovac?
19 A. Marko Kovac? No.
20 Q. When you said you were taken to Belgrade, how were you taken
22 A. A vehicle came. They said, "Off you go." We got ready, and we
23 went. They probably got orders from someone too. How should I know?
24 Q. How many people were released with you?
25 A. Only three of us left.
1 Q. Who left with you?
2 A. Fehim and Hilmo. Fehim died in Tetovo. And Hilmo is alive. I
3 don't know where he is.
4 Q. And Fehim and Hilmo were also related and also named Cengic,
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Did you learn later how your exchange or your release had been
8 arranged? Did somebody on the outside make arrangements for you to be
9 released, such as a family member?
10 A. Family members? Of course my children had to look for me and
11 wonder where I was, but nobody told me anything. They just said to me,
12 "Get ready," and then they took us to Belgrade. We didn't even know we
13 were going to Belgrade until we got there.
14 Q. While you were in the KP Dom, did you ever receive treatment for
15 the injuries that you received at the hospital?
16 A. Nobody treated me, and I didn't even go out to eat. If they
17 brought something to me to eat, I ate. And I didn't even go to the toilet
18 for 20 days. I couldn't pass a stool. That's the way the food was. And
19 nobody really did anything to me. So that's what it was like while I was
20 at the KP Dom.
21 MS. KUO: Thank you. Those are the questions of the Prosecution.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I shall try to be even
24 briefer than my learned colleague was. The Defence has two questions.
25 Although we believe that the tape will be checked, we are just going to go
1 back to some questions that we believe were not entered into the
2 transcript. I didn't want to interrupt my learned friend, and I
3 understand all the technical problems that happen, but I'll be very
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Bakrac please not speak at the time
9 the witness is speaking.
10 A. I had an operation a month ago. Please bear that in mind. I am
11 quite, you know, desperate, and I am really not up to a lot of
12 interrogation or whatever. If you can be as short as possible, because
13 I've got to go.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, the interpreters said that on that
15 occasion you were actually asking a question while the witness was still
16 speaking, Not just the interpretation but while the witness himself was
17 speaking. So please try to pause.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with due respect to the
19 interpreters, the witness started speaking while I was still speaking, but
20 never mind.
21 Q. Sir, I have full respect for your age and your health, and believe
22 me, I'll try to be much briefer than we usually have been during these
23 examinations. I'm just going to put a few questions to you. I am Mihajlo
24 Bakrac, attorney-at-law, one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Krnojelac.
25 Sir, you said that you had two sons in Sarajevo. Can you tell me
1 what they did at the time when the conflict broke out in Bosnia?
2 A. They were engineers. They did their own work. I don't know.
3 Q. Did they stay in Sarajevo throughout the war?
4 A. Yes. One stayed throughout the war and the other one went out to
5 take care of his wife and children, and of the others too, so -- of the
6 other one, too, so he stayed in [redacted].
7 Q. Do you know the name of Muhamed Cengic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is he related to you?
10 A. Related? My brother-in-law.
11 Q. Are we talking about Muhamed Cengic, a high official of the SDA?
12 A. Is that what he was? You mean a leader.
13 Q. I did not hear your answer, sir. I don't know what you said. Are
14 we talking about a high leader of the SDA, Muhamed Cengic?
15 A. Yes, we are talking about him. He was a leader.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. You're welcome.
18 Q. However, during the time, he was a high official of the SDA,
19 wasn't he?
20 A. Yes, he was, and then he went to [redacted], and then he never
21 returned until the war ended.
22 Q. Thank you, sir. You talked about villages, Mrdjanovici, Izbisno,
23 Govza 1, Govza 2. What is the ethnic composition of these villages or
24 what was the ethnic composition?
25 A. Mostly Muslims. In Govza there were some Serbs. In the other
1 three there weren't any.
2 Q. What about Mrdjanovici; there were no Serbs?
3 A. No, there weren't
4 Q. What about Izbisno?
5 A. No. At Poljice there were some Serbs, but there were more Muslims
7 Q. You talked about the 17th of August, 1992. I would just like to
8 clarify something. You said today during the examination-in-chief that a
9 policeman came to arrest you, and in your statement you said that a Serb
10 soldier came.
11 A. It's all the same to me. It's not a policeman who came, it's a
12 soldier who came. Not one; five or six of them. They came in a car.
13 They rounded us up and took us to the police station.
14 Q. Thank you, sir. You have said something already. I please -- I
15 hope you won't mind that we have to repeat this, but we need something
16 here in the transcript.
17 You mentioned Dr. Milena Begenisic. Is it correct that you said
18 that she took care of you as if she were your mother or sister?
19 A. Even better than that. I cannot express her -- appreciation to
20 her in any other way. No one was better to me in my life. Not my mother
21 nor my sister. When I could not speak, she made me come to.
22 Q. Is it also correct that you said that this soldier who threatened
23 to slit your throat, when she called the police said that he would slit
24 her throat too?
25 A. He said so immediately, that he'd slit her throat too, and that is
1 why she called the police.
2 Q. Did she stay with you until late at night?
3 A. She stayed until she sent us off to the KP Dom. However, I did
4 not see -- she sent me this letter of discharge from the hospital, and
5 that's why I say that she got us ready.
6 Q. Is it true that you also said that you were sent to the KP Dom so
7 that you would not see your end in the hospital because of such persons?
8 A. We were told that we had to go to the KP Dom because there is no
9 security in the hospital, that he would come and that he would slit our
10 throats and that's why they got us ready and dispatched us.
11 Q. When you talked about Mr. Hilmo or Fehim Cengic, you said that he
12 could not see 9 per cent; is that correct?
13 A. That is correct. Five per cent, not 9 per cent. He could not see
14 5 per cent. That's what he had a piece of paper saying.
15 Q. And he was born with that defect?
16 A. Yes. Yes, he was born with that kind of defect.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Is it also correct that you were brought to the
18 KP Dom on the 2nd of October, 1992?
19 A. On the 2nd of October? I did not say that. I think it was in
20 September that I came to the KP Dom. I was in hospital for 50 days, and
21 on the 17th of August, I was deprived of my liberty.
22 Q. Sir, I'll just try to refresh your memory. I'm going to read from
23 a statement that you gave in 1995 to the OTP: On the 2nd of October,
24 1992, a tall Chetnik in SMB uniform came and said that he heard that there
25 were some Ustashes in the hospital.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that on the 2nd -- that after the
3 2nd of October, after this tall Chetnik, as you said, came, you went to
4 the KP Dom?
5 A. That night we went. The lady doctor got us ready. She asked the
6 municipality to send a vehicle to the KP Dom to transfer us and that's the
7 way it was.
8 Q. Sir, my last question, I'm not going to trouble you any more:
9 You talked about the exchange in December, and in your statement given in
10 1995, you mentioned that, in this group, there was also Malkic and a
11 Slovenian journalist. You did not mention the names of Lagarija and
12 Cengic, the ones you mentioned today. How come your memory of these names
13 is better today than it was in 1995?
14 A. They didn't ask me. Since this question was put to me, I remember
15 these people who came to cover me with a blanket, and I was so weak, and I
16 wanted to die. It was so cold and there was no heating in the room and
17 there was no food, and that's the way it was. There was Lagarija, Malkic,
18 Cengic. I knew them. And perhaps I said -- I don't know what I said when
19 they asked me. I don't know. And ...
20 Q. Sir, you said you were taken with Hilmo and Fehim Cengic by car to
21 Belgrade. Who drove you?
22 A. A driver. A driver.
23 Q. What was he wearing?
24 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. He wore an English [as
25 interpreted] kind of uniform.
1 Q. So he wore a military uniform?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Was this uniform that was worn by other soldiers at that time?
4 A. To tell you the truth, you said that you wouldn't be asking me too
5 many questions. You are interested in uniforms and I'm interested in my
6 life. For ten years now I've been bothered by all these questions and
7 everything and I was not interested in this uniform, and now if you're
8 interested, what can I tell you? I don't know and I can't tell you. I
9 don't know and I'm not going to lie either. So there.
10 Q. There's a mistake in the transcript. That is why I wanted to
11 clarify this and this is indeed my last question, sir: In the KP Dom,
12 did you have a male nurse named Gojko Jokanovic coming to see you?
13 A. A man came - they say he was there before - and he gave some pills
14 out. He didn't give anything to me, and I didn't ask for any, and what
15 could he give me, anyway?
16 Q. Sir, thank you very much. I have no further questions.
17 A. Oh, thank you too.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any re-examination?
19 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. You are now free to leave. Thank
21 you for giving evidence before the Tribunal.
22 Now, do we go back to the witness we were on yesterday afternoon?
23 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE HUNT: That's Witness 89.
25 MS. KUO: Yes. We had asked for him to be brought in. We thought
1 that we would take this first hour and a half break. We've contacted the
2 Victims and Witnesses Unit and they haven't gotten back to us, so I'm
3 afraid he won't be available until 12.00. We didn't want to keep him
4 waiting in the morning; we prefer to have him in the hotel so he wouldn't
5 be very anxious when he came into the courtroom.
6 JUDGE HUNT: I don't know where you must have kept him yesterday
7 if you're worried about him being anxious, Ms. Kuo. Anyway, if he's not
8 here, he's not here. Perhaps could you have an inquiry made before we go
9 off for an hour to see whether somebody could speak -- whether your case
10 manager can speak to somebody downstairs.
11 Perhaps while we are waiting, I might make an inquiry. Has
12 something been sorted out about the medical examination yet?
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, yesterday, at least yesterday at
14 lunchtime, our expert hadn't got the report, but we have provided the
15 e-mail address and her correct fax number to Defence counsel. Now, if she
16 received it today, I don't know.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, by your leave, may I
19 address you?
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I have contacted our expert. Our
22 expert confirmed that she sent her expert opinion last Thursday,
23 Ms. Najman to Ms. Forlegovic, and Ms. Forlegovic said that she would
24 complete her expert opinion by Thursday, by tomorrow, and then they would
25 send that to the OTP. That's the information I have as of last night.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
2 MS. KUO: Your Honour, I've been told that the Victims and
3 Witnesses Unit is sending somebody to the courtroom to let us know whether
4 they've located the witness and, if so, how much time it will require to
5 bring him in.
6 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn and somebody can let us know when
7 we're expected back.
8 MS. KUO: Very well, Your Honour.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.00 p.m.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.
12 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 WITNESS: FWS-89 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued]
16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Are you feeling better today?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At the end of the day yesterday we were talking about -- I had
19 asked you whether you had seen Mr. Krnojelac, and you said that you did
20 see him when you were chopping wood and cutting grass and collecting hay.
21 Could you tell us what Mr. Krnojelac was doing when you saw him on those
23 A. He came on inspection tours.
24 Q. Did you ever talk to him or did he talk to the people who were
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. What did he say?
3 A. He told us to take care, not to get hurt, to take care.
4 Q. These places where you were chopping wood and cutting grass and
5 collecting hay, where were they? Were they far from the farm?
6 A. Yes. It's a place from Brod, near Kopilovi, a hillock just beyond
8 Q. Were you ever paid for the work that you did while you were at the
9 KP Dom?
10 A. No. They didn't pay us for the work that we did. We only got
12 Q. Were you ever charged with a crime while you were detained at
13 KP Dom?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you ever given the opportunity to ask to be released?
16 A. To ask to be released? No. I didn't even ask. I didn't even try
17 to leave.
18 Q. When you were taken outside to work, did townspeople ever provoke
20 A. There was one incident when we were working at the mine.
21 Q. What happened?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened during that incident?
24 A. That happened when we left for work at 7.00 a.m. The car broke
25 down in town, and we weren't able to go.
1 Q. What did the townspeople do?
2 A. Individuals among them asked us to take off our caps. They wanted
3 to take them.
4 Q. Was there anything special about those caps?
5 A. Those were the caps that had been distributed to us by the Red
7 Q. And was it to keep warm because it was winter?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did the townspeople point any weapons at you?
10 A. No, they didn't.
11 Q. What town was this in when this incident happened?
12 A. That happened in town, near the post office.
13 Q. In Foca?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Was there another occasion when someone slapped you?
16 A. Yes. There was an incident when I was working at the bakery,
17 unloading flour. A young man by the name of Slobo Curcic slapped me.
18 Q. Was there a guard present?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did the guard react?
21 A. The guard ran up to us, and he told me -- he told him not to touch
22 me, but the young man had already slapped me.
23 Q. When was this?
24 A. That was in 1993.
25 Q. When were you finally released from KP Dom?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Finally it was on the 10th of May, 1994.
2 Q. What happened on the 10th of May?
3 A. 10th of May. I remember.
4 Q. What happened on that day?
5 A. Well, when we were let out that day, they escorted us on a bus to
6 Kula, and there was an incident wherein two young men came up -- came
7 through the door, pointed guns at us, and told the driver to drive us
9 Q. Witness, were you released with the last group of detainees at the
10 KP Dom?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And had you previously told the Office of the Prosecution that it
13 was the 5th of October, 1994, when you were released? That is, the fifth
14 day of the tenth month.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Today you said it was the tenth day of the fifth month. Was that
17 a mistake today?
18 A. That's a mistake.
19 Q. Were you released in October?
20 A. Yes. Yes, in October. On the 5th of October, 1994.
21 MS. KUO: No further questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination, Mr. Bakrac.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Bakrac:
25 Q. Good morning, sir. I am lawyer Mihajlo Bakrac, one of the Defence
1 counsel of the accused Milorad Krnojelac. I will ask you a couple of
2 questions, but I would kindly ask you that when I ask you a question,
3 please make a pause for the interpretation to finish and only then answer
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have you understood me?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During your examination-in-chief, sir, you said that on the 8th of
9 April, the war in Foca began; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it also true that in your statement given to the Office of the
12 Prosecutor, you said that shooting began at 9.30?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. During the examination-in-chief yesterday, you said that on the
15 8th of April, you went to work; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When? At what time after you went to work did you go to the
19 A. When I was unable to work; we were turned back from the gate.
20 Q. And after that, you went to the bank?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Where is that bank?
23 A. [redacted]
25 Q. [redacted]
5 A. [redacted]
6 Q. [redacted]
8 A. [redacted]
9 Q. [redacted]
10 A. [redacted]
11 Q. [redacted]
12 A. [redacted]
13 Q. How far is your enterprise from the place where you resided?
14 A. Ten or 15, 15 minutes.
15 Q. And how far is your Ljubovic - that is, the house of your cousin
16 in Ljubovic - from the place where you worked?
17 A. It is closer when you go across the Cehotina. Perhaps ten minutes
19 Q. And you claim that the house of your cousin in Ljubovic is closer
20 to the place where you worked than your apartment?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How -- at what time were you at the bank?
23 A. That was after noon, after 12.00.
24 Q. You mean at noon?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And when did you go to work?
2 A. I was supposed to work the second shift, starting at 2.00.
3 Q. Your wife and your three children remained at your apartment;
4 isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes. In fact, two children and my wife. My third daughter was in
6 Sarajevo at school.
7 Q. You have just told us that on the 8th, in the morning, shooting
8 started in town around 9.30, and around 12.00 you went to the bank, and
9 yesterday you told us that you didn't go home but instead you went to your
10 cousin's house because you were unable, due to the shooting, to go to your
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When did you leave your home?
16 A. You mean the cousin's home?
17 Q. No, your home.
18 A. During the day, when I went to work.
19 Q. Meaning after the shooting had begun? Can you answer me? Is
20 it after the shooting had begun? You said the shooting began at 9.30.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You said you were working the second shift. You left your flat,
23 you left your two children and wife behind, and -- after the shooting had
24 begun. And here, during the examination, you said you couldn't come back
25 home because there was shooting around.
1 A. That was on the second day, on another day, because that evening I
2 spent the night at my cousin's, and that was the next day.
3 Q. You told us it was on the 8th of April when the shooting began at
4 9.30, and you said yesterday and you confirmed today that on the 8th of
5 April, you went to work and you went to the bank.
6 A. Yes. I went to my cousin's that evening. I spent the night there
7 and that happened in the morning.
8 Q. Why did you spend the night at your cousin's, having left your
9 wife and children at your apartment?
10 A. I went there just to see them, see how they were doing.
11 Q. Do you know where the driver Karasi's house is in Ljubovic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where was the mortar installed on the Karasi house?
14 A. I don't know. I didn't see. I didn't enter his house.
15 Q. Do you know there was a mortar on the Karasi house?
16 A. I don't know. I didn't see it. I was at his brother's house.
17 That was the house next door.
18 Q. You mean you were in the next house to his where the mortar was?
19 A. I don't know. I didn't see any mortars.
20 Q. To whom did you turn over your weapon?
21 A. I didn't have one.
22 Q. None of the 15 people with whom you were had any weapons?
23 A. I didn't have any weapons. I know about myself. Personally I
24 didn't have anything.
25 Q. What about the others? Do you know whether they had weapons?
1 A. Others had weapons.
2 Q. You were the only one who didn't?
3 A. No, I didn't have anything.
4 Q. What kind of weapons did the others have?
5 A. His brother had some kind of device, some rifle.
6 Q. Did you say in your statement that Muslims had to turn over their
7 weapons when the war had been lost?
8 A. It was said that it would be better to turn over the weapons, that
9 no one would suffer.
10 Q. Were the weapons turned over?
11 A. Some people did turn over their weapons; others didn't.
12 Q. Those who didn't, what did they do with it?
13 A. They must have kept them for themselves.
14 Q. Did you turn over some weapons to Bozo Dostic, perhaps?
15 A. No. I didn't have any weapons at all. I didn't carry any. I
16 didn't possess any, and I didn't carry any.
17 Q. How come that Bozo Dostic turned up at your place and was in
18 charge of 15 or 16 Muslims who were at the Karasi house?
19 A. We weren't at the Karasi house, we were at Avdo Muratovic's
21 Q. That is next door to the Karasi house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you hear shooting around?
24 A. There was shooting.
25 Q. Thank you. Will you please tell me, sir, yesterday you spoke
1 about this, I just want to clarify something you said in your statement.
2 When you asked Dostic to allow you to go to see your wife and children, he
3 told you that he had to ask Boro Ivanovic, the commander. Was he a
4 military commander?
5 A. Of course he was. He must have been.
6 Q. I'm asking you because in your statement, you said, "He said he
7 would ask Boro Ivanovic, who was the Serbian military commander." Is that
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You also said in your statement that KP Dom was guarded by
11 soldiers wearing blue uniforms --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- when you came to the KP Dom. I want to know what that means.
14 Were they soldiers?
15 A. No. Those were guards who had worked even before, while there was
17 Q. Did you used to see soldiers there as well?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You told us yesterday, sir, that on that day when you were brought
20 to the KP Dom, you were taken to Room 12. Is that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That after 20 days, you were transferred to Room 16.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it true that, in Room 16, you stayed until July 1993?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then after July 1993, you spent several days in Room 20?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And after that, you spent all the rest of the time, until your
4 release, in Room 13?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you give us a drawing of the rooms where you were detained, to
7 the Office of the Prosecutor, indicating where those rooms were located?
8 A. Those rooms are located --
9 Q. No. I didn't ask you where they were located. We'll try to clear
10 that up in a different way. I only want to know whether you had made a
11 drawing of the KP Dom, the prisoners' quarters, buildings 1 and 2, and
12 indicated exactly where those rooms were located?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I
15 would like the drawing that you made put on the ELMO.
16 MS. KUO: Your Honours, I would ask to have this redacted, or at
17 least have the ELMO placed so that the name is not visible.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Just take it off the ELMO. Take it off the ELMO.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I didn't
21 pay attention and didn't see the name on the bottom. I would have
23 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right, Mr. Bakrac. It's taken care of
24 now. We can redact the whole of that time that it was on the ELMO.
25 Put it back, would you. Thank you.
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Sir, please be so kind as to show me on the drawing that you made
3 where is Room 12? Where are the windows of the Room 12 where you were?
4 A. Here on the drawing.
5 Q. For the transcript, the witness is indicating building number 1,
6 the first and second windows on the left-hand side, circled, and below
7 there is an inscription "Room 12."
8 You have just indicated, sir, Room 13. Where was Room 12? Can
9 you show us Room 12 on this drawing? Sir, can you indicate to us the
10 location of Room 16?
11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe it would be a
12 better idea for the usher to take the photograph of these two buildings so
13 that the witness can indicate it to us on the photograph. Perhaps the
14 drawing is confusing.
15 Q. Witness, I'll give you a photograph. Please try to show this to
16 us on the photograph.
17 A. Yes. Thank you.
18 JUDGE HUNT: The photograph is 7512.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was just going
20 to identify the photograph.
21 Q. We can start from the building marked with number "2" in a yellow
22 circle. Where is Room 16?
23 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness any longer.
24 A. Room 16 was on the first floor.
25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You are showing the warehouse, the cellar.
2 A. Well, then this is Room 16.
3 Q. You are indicating windows on the ground floor. What were the
4 windows of your room?
5 A. Those were four windows.
6 Q. The windows you are indicating?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for the benefit of the
9 transcript, the witness is indicating that he was in Room 16, on the
10 ground floor, and that this room included all the four windows in front
11 which are visible. So this is the annex building, the part of the
12 building marked by number "2" in a yellow circle.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Do you agree with that description, Ms. Kuo?
14 MS. KUO: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. Please show me now where was Room 20.
18 A. Room 20 was on the upper floor, upstairs.
19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the four
20 windows on the second floor, above the ground floor, the four windows
21 located above Room 16 in the same annex building marked with number "2" in
22 a yellow circle.
23 Q. Can you tell me now, Witness, looking at this photograph, where
24 were Room 12 and 13?
25 A. Rooms 12 and 13.
1 Q. Which room are you indicating now?
2 A. This room. This room. This was 11 and -- that was the ground
3 floor, and 13 was upstairs.
4 Q. Is 13 upstairs in that part that you are indicating or the part
5 where it says number "1" in a circle?
6 A. Number "1".
7 Q. That's Room 13; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness is indicating the window
10 on the second floor in the annex building above which there is number "1"
11 in a circle. The witness indicated the first window on the right-hand
12 side -- the first window on the left-hand side - I'm sorry - the one
13 facing annex number 2.
14 Q. Witness, I'm not going to trouble you with this any more. Just
15 tell me, is Room 12 in the same building, building number 1, where Room 13
17 A. Yes, it's the same entrance, except that you enter on the
18 right-hand side for Room 12, whereas Room 13 to the left.
19 Q. And the windows of Room 12, where you were, also face the compound
20 of the KP Dom and the administration building; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the usher. We
23 no longer need this photograph.
24 Q. Witness, you said that you were in these rooms with the work
25 platoon. Was a person named Safet Avdic with you?
1 A. Safet Avdic was not in my room.
2 Q. Was there another work platoon, another work room or was it only
3 your room?
4 A. There was another work room where the metalworkers were.
5 Q. Where were they? In which room?
6 A. The room behind my room.
7 Q. You said that you were in four rooms, so we don't know exactly in
8 which room they were.
9 A. I was in 13, and they were behind my room, on the right-hand
11 Q. Is that Room 14?
12 A. Sure it is.
13 Q. Thank you. Is it correct, Witness, that in your statement given
14 to the Office of the Prosecutor, you said the following: "Zoran Vladicic
15 and another soldier were investigators at the KP Dom." Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. I would just like to clarify another matter. As I
18 checked some of the shifts of various working days, yesterday it was not
19 quite clear in your examination-in-chief, is it true that you started
20 working in the mine in Miljevina in September or October 1993 for the
21 first time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that you worked there until March 1994?
24 A. Yes. Yes. I worked there for six months. I know that.
25 Q. Were you in the group of miners who worked in the Miljevina mine?
1 A. I was, for six months.
2 Q. Was this the first group that went to work in Miljevina?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday, you talked about certain persons
5 about whom you had heard that they were taken out to go plum picking. Is
6 it correct that you stated to the Office of the Prosecutor the following:
7 This is page number 8, the third paragraph, these are two sentences. I'll
8 read them slowly: "Once in the KP Dom, 36 prisoners were singled out to
9 go and pick plums. I was not there at the time because I was working at
10 the farm at Brioni."
11 Is this correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you remember which year this was?
14 A. The year was 1992.
15 Q. Can you remember the month?
16 A. The month was September.
17 Q. You said that you heard about this from the other detainees. Did
18 you hear about that when you got out of the KP Dom?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday, in the -- actually, in the
21 statement you gave to the OTP, you gave almost 20 names. Yesterday you
22 could not remember a single one. Did they tell you then the names of the
23 persons who were taken out?
24 A. People talked about it, but some do not know all the people, and I
25 don't know all of them by name. Quite a bit of time has gone by. I can't
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 remember how many years; six, seven. I've forgotten. I can't remember.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness. You said yesterday that you worked on heating
3 the KP Dom. When was that?
4 A. That was in 1992.
5 Q. Which month?
6 A. It was the month of May.
7 Q. In the month of May 1992. What were you doing in respect of
9 A. We were stoking furnaces for the kitchen, putting coal in.
10 Q. Did you know that the central heating at the KP Dom had been
11 destroyed in 1992?
12 A. What can I tell you? In the rooms where we were, there was no
13 heating. This was only for the kitchen and for baths.
14 Q. For baths where?
15 A. For baths down there in the bathrooms.
16 Q. Did detainees bathe there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was firewood used for cooking in the kitchen?
19 A. Firewood was used later.
20 Q. At the time when you were brought to the KP Dom and after that,
21 were there brownouts often at the KP Dom?
22 A. There were a few times when there was no electricity at the
23 KP Dom.
24 Q. In your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, did you state
25 that there was no central heating at the KP Dom during your first year
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is the reason for that precisely the breakdown in the system of
4 heating, the mechanical breakdown that we mentioned?
5 A. That is possible, and it is also possible that there were not
6 sufficient resources.
7 Q. In the so-called day room of your detainee room, did you have a
9 A. We had a furnace in 1993, when the Red Cross registered us. We
10 had furnaces with firewood and coal.
11 Q. Is it also correct that you stated that, during the winter, they
12 gave you additional blankets?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How many blankets did you get?
15 A. I had four blankets.
16 Q. Thank you. When the Red Cross gave these furnaces, did they give
17 them to the detainees in the various detainee rooms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Yesterday, you talked about working on a
20 farm. Now we heard that in September 1992, when 36 people were taken out,
21 that you were at the farm at Brioni. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You also said yesterday that, at the farm, eggs, milk, and meat
24 were produced. Did detainees get any of that?
25 A. Yes, we did.
1 Q. Yesterday, I had the impression that you had stopped at a point
2 when you said that they got eggs. Did they also get milk and meat?
3 A. Yes. We got eggs and meat and milk, we who were engaged in
4 physical labour, who were more exposed to physical labour.
5 Q. Did the other detainees get that?
6 A. Well, perhaps the others didn't.
7 Q. Not at all or not as much as you got?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I don't know what "yes" means. Is it not as much as you who
10 worked there got or --
11 A. They did not get as much as we got. They got smaller quantities.
12 Q. Thank you. You said yesterday that part of this produce went to
13 civilians in Foca in addition to going to the detainees.
14 A. It certainly did.
15 Q. Do you know that part of this produce also went to the military?
16 A. Well, certainly, if necessary.
17 Q. You worked at the farm. I'm asking you whether you know that the
18 military took some of this with them, rather, some of this produce.
19 A. We worked up there and then we sent that to town, and who took all
20 of that, I don't know, I can't tell you for sure. Somebody must have
21 used it.
22 Q. On the basis of what do you infer that Muslims could not buy this
23 produce unless Serb neighbours gave it to them?
24 A. They didn't because they probably didn't have the money to buy it.
25 Q. Is that your assumption?
1 A. Certainly.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, actually -- I'm sorry. Is it correct that
3 you said in your statement you gave to the OTP that Dr. Aziz Torlak was
4 taken away from the KP Dom in 1994?
5 A. Yes. He was there until the very last -- how should I put this?
6 He was the last to be taken out of the KP Dom.
7 Q. Which month was this? Approximately.
8 A. This was the month of June maybe.
9 Q. Thank you. A few minutes ago when my learned friend was
10 questioning you, you talked about the incidents concerning caps which
11 occurred in Foca. Was this in the period when you worked at the mine in
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So that happened between September 1993 and perhaps March 1994; is
15 that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is it correct that you stated to the office of the OTP that your
18 wife and children sought permission to leave Foca?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did they seek such permission several times?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. They -- when they finally got this permission, they finally left
24 A. Yes. They left Foca on the 19th of August.
25 Q. You mean the 19th of August, 1992?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you, Witness.
3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these were all the
4 questions of the Defence. We have no further questions of this witness.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
6 Ms. Kuo, any re-examination?
7 MS. KUO: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. That concludes your evidence. We
9 are grateful to you for having come to the Tribunal to give it. You are
10 now free to leave.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE HUNT: Now, 137 is the next one, is that so? And the
13 protective measures at the moment are the usual, facial distortion and
14 pseudonym; is that right?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Is it a voice distortion? No?
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Well, the pseudonym sheet for 137 will be
19 Exhibit P443, and it is under seal.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE HUNT: Witness, would you please make the declaration in the
22 document that is being shown to you by the court usher.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Sit down, please, Witness.
1 WITNESS: FWS-137
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Witness, in front of you, to your right side, there is a sheet of
9 paper. Would you please take this sheet of paper and look at it. On
10 this sheet of paper, there is the Witness number 137. That's your code
11 number. Below, there is a name. Is it your name?
12 A. This is name 69.
13 Q. No, Witness, the first name on this sheet of paper, the first
14 name, right under the number 137, is it your name?
15 A. My name is the first name, but I looked at this other thing, and I
16 do apologise to you.
17 Q. Yes. Thank you. And if you look at the spelling of your name, is
18 it spelled correctly?
19 A. Yes.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I asked this because, in the
21 various statements that the witness gave previously, it's spelled
22 differently. That is why I asked this question.
23 Q. And below your name, is there your date of birth?
24 A. Yes, my date of birth.
25 Q. Yes. Thank you. Where were you born?
1 A. I was born in the village of Josanica, municipality of Foca.
2 Q. And what is your ethnicity?
3 A. I'm an ethnic Muslim.
4 Q. What was your profession before the war? What did you do?
5 A. Before the war, I was a worker by profession.
6 Q. Are you married and do you have children?
7 A. I'm married. I have four daughters.
8 Q. Where did you live before the war; in which neighbourhood?
9 A. Before the war, I lived in the village of Josanica, and in 1986, I
10 bought a house in Foca.
11 Q. And in which neighbourhood did you live when the war broke out,
12 that is, in April 1992? Where did you live?
13 A. In April, when the war broke out, I was in Foca at that moment.
14 Q. Yes. And in which neighbourhood of Foca?
15 A. [redacted]
17 Q. Before the outbreak of the war, were you a member of any of the
18 newly-formed parties?
19 A. I did not belong to any party before the war.
20 Q. Did you have a weapon?
21 A. No, I did not have a weapon.
22 Q. And when the war broke out in Foca in April 1992, did you
23 participate in the fighting at any time?
24 A. I did not.
25 Q. Were you arrested?
1 A. They arrested me in the house of Zahir Sandal. I was in the
2 street of [redacted] for five days during the first war [as interpreted]
3 when the shooting started in Foca
4 Q. When were you arrested? On what date?
5 A. They arrested me on the 13th of April, 1992.
6 Q. And on that day, where were you? Were you at home or were you at
7 someone else's house?
8 A. I was in Hilmo Celo's house then.
9 Q. Why were you not at home but in Hilmo Celo's house?
10 A. Well, when the shooting started the first day, I went to his
11 place. [redacted], and I went to his place to see whether
12 he had gone somewhere. He had broken his leg.
13 Q. Who arrested you at Celo's house?
14 A. Some kind of military police came, seven of them. They were in
15 military uniform, and they said to us then that we all had to get out of
16 that house regardless of whether we could move or not, regardless of
17 whether there were any women and children. We all had to go to this one
18 house, and that was Zahir Sandal's house.
19 Q. Was this house also in the Cohodar Mahala neighbourhood? Was it
20 close to Celo's house?
21 A. It was near Celo's house and [redacted] this house was.
22 Q. Was the owner of the house a Muslim?
23 A. [redacted]
25 Q. You said that all who were actually in Celo's house were taken to
1 Sandal's house. How many people were actually taken to Sandal's house?
2 A. There were about 55 of us in Sandal's house, men, women, and
4 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, we've come across a problem there
5 that we've had before in this trial about in-laws. [redacted]
7 [redacted]. It's
8 a problem with the language, I understand. Is it important?
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Let's leave it stand.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's a relative, and that should be enough.
12 Q. Witness, what ethnicity did those persons in Sandal's house have,
13 these 55 of you?
14 A. All of these persons were Muslims.
15 Q. And how long did you stay in Sandal's house?
16 A. We stayed in Sandal's house for four days.
17 Q. While you were there, were you guarded by soldiers?
18 A. Well, we were guarded, but I knew some of them. They were
19 neighbours. Nobody touched us. Nobody mistreated us. They just did
20 their duty. There were no problems.
21 Q. Where were you taken next?
22 A. After that, they took us to the KP Dom, on the 17th of April,
24 Q. Who took you there?
25 A. The same troops who brought us there, they took us. They said,
1 "Follow us." They said women and children could go home and the men had
2 to go with them.
3 Q. And how many men were you at that time?
4 A. That group, there were -- I cannot tell you exactly, but it was
5 around 12 men.
6 Q. And how were you taken to the KP Dom; in which vehicle?
7 A. We were taken -- there was a bus parked there belonging to
8 Focatrans of Foca.
9 Q. The driver, was he a civilian or was he also a military person?
10 A. He was a civilian, but believe it or not, in my fear at that time,
11 I didn't even recognise the driver. He was a civilian.
12 Q. The soldiers who took you to the KP Dom, did they tell you why you
13 were taken there?
14 A. They didn't tell us anything as to why they were taking us. They
15 just lined us up, conducted a search to see what we had on us, what we
16 didn't have. They took us straight to the bus then, and the bus was
17 perhaps 10 metres away.
18 Q. How long did you stay at the KP Dom?
19 A. I was at the KP Dom from the 17th of April until the 12th of
20 June. The 12th or the 11th of June. This month of November, I don't
22 Q. Just -- you said the 11th -- 12th or 11th of June. Which year?
23 THE INTERPRETER: It seems the witness is inversing the figures
24 for day and month.
25 A. It wasn't June. It was November or December 1992.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.
2 JUDGE HUNT: You see the note from the interpreters there.
3 Perhaps he's been living in America for some time. I don't know.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Yes. Thank you.
5 Q. When you arrived at the KP Dom on that first day, did you see
6 soldiers at the KP Dom itself?
7 A. We saw the soldiers who took us to the KP Dom. They didn't beat
8 us on the way. They didn't mistreat us. They turned us over to other
9 soldiers at the KP Dom. The other one started taking our personal
10 details, searching us to see what we carried on us, but those who had
11 taken us there left.
12 Q. Did you see members of the regular prison staff on your arrival on
13 that day?
14 A. On that day, I didn't see any of the regulars. They just
15 brought us, took our personal details, then they took us to our rooms. I
16 didn't see any special staff on that day. Some soldiers, those who
17 brought us, they left at that point and we were taken over by other
19 Q. Did the regular prison staff take over from the soldiers at one
20 point in time?
21 A. Yes. They took over. They were gathering some papers when they
22 brought us and then we were accommodated in rooms.
23 Q. When did the regular prison staff start to work in the KP Dom?
24 When did you see the normal guards?
25 A. Well, first of all, for 10 or 15 days, the military were with us.
1 They gave us some food, canned food, and then the civilians took over, the
2 police. We didn't see the army any longer there. I don't know where they
4 Q. And where were you taken within the KP Dom? Do you know into
5 which room?
6 A. They placed us in rooms. I was in Room 11. There was a central
7 warehouse just below my room. My room was Room 11.
8 Q. And how long did you stay in Room 11?
9 A. I stayed there until July 1993 -- sorry, 1992.
10 Q. And were you then transferred to another room?
11 A. After that, I was transferred to Room 18.
12 Q. And where was this? Was it in the same building as Room 11 or
13 somewhere else?
14 A. No, it's not in the same building. It was a different room,
16 Q. In the next building, you mean? You said it was in a different
17 building. Was it in the adjacent building?
18 A. It was a different building, and we were on an upper floor when I
19 went to Room 18.
20 Q. Were you interrogated while in the prison?
21 A. Interrogation began first with some papers, documentation, and
22 then interrogation started immediately in the evening. They brought some
23 papers which were brought by the guards.
24 Q. Let us speak about your own interrogation first. When were you
1 A. I was interrogated after 55 days. I was maybe the last from that
2 building where there were four rooms.
3 Q. Did you ask to be interrogated?
4 A. Well, to tell you the truth, since I was the last one to remain
5 there without having been interrogated, I was on good terms with Risto
6 Ivanovic, the best policeman there was there. We were neighbours before
7 the war. We knew each other well. I approached him once and asked him.
8 I was very concerned about what would happen before I was interrogated,
9 and he said he would look up something in some books downstairs. And the
10 second time -- the next time he was on shift, he told me that he had
11 looked up the books, and he said I was going to be transferred. It seemed
12 that they had forgotten all about me.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the guard mentioned is listed
14 under number 9 in P-3.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
17 Q. Where were you interrogated; in which building?
18 A. The interrogation was conducted downstairs, near the gate. You go
19 through the gate, then you go to a room straight by the gate.
20 Q. When you speak about the gate, you mean this metal door leading
21 from the yard into the administration building?
22 A. Precisely. Towards the metal door, and that is where statements
23 were taken.
24 Q. Yes. And when you had passed the metal door, did you have to turn
25 to the right to get to the interrogation room?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. I turned right. When I went upstairs, I turned right.
2 Q. You said you went then upstairs. How many floors upstairs?
3 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember. It may have been the
4 first floor. It may have been the ground floor.
5 Q. And who took you there?
6 A. When I gave my statement, a policeman escorted me. He was there
7 with us at the KP Dom. He was a certain Predo.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have already heard from other
9 witnesses that Predo is Predrag Stefanovic and he is listed under number
10 22 on that same P-3.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Were you beaten on you way to the
13 interrogation room?
14 A. There was Zoran Vladicic there. I don't know whether everyone
15 gave their statements to him. I gave mine after 55 days. I knew that man
16 from before the war because I worked with his father in the same
17 enterprise. But we spent a lot of time talking on that occasion. He
18 jumped from his chair twice as if he was going to hit me, but he didn't.
19 There was a lot of mistreatment, but he didn't hit me.
20 He asked me where I worked. I said I worked in Perucica
21 enterprise of Foca, and he said,"You don't work there. I know all the
22 stuff in that company." And in my fear at that moment, I said, "Just
23 think of all the stuff that I unloaded together with your father and how
24 can you be doing this to me?" He looked me in the eyes, and he grinned,
25 and that's where the statement-taking ended. He proffered a paper to me
1 and said, "Sign it."
2 Q. But I had asked you -- my brief question was actually were you
3 beaten on the way from your room to the interrogation room? Were you
4 beaten or hit on your way?
5 A. They beat me when this Predo, the policeman, took me out.
6 Downstairs there was Miro Burilo. He was at the gate. He said, "Stop."
7 I got very frightened. I raised my hands. He hit me twice. I fell to
8 the ground. The policeman who was escorting me lifted me by the hand and
9 we continued on our way, and we went to Zoran's office. And if I may also
10 add, once again in the compound, in the courtyard, I was hit when we were
11 coming back from lunch. Some soldiers came up and hit me.
12 Q. Witness, we'll go step-by-step. We do not want to mix incidents.
13 You said that Burilo hit you twice. Did he do that in the --
14 A. Twice. Miro Burilo.
15 Q. Yes. And did he beat you within the building or in the compound?
16 A. No. He hit me when I was on my way to give my statement at Zoran
17 Vladicic's office. He was standing at the gate.
18 Q. Does that mean that he hit you after you had passed through the
19 metal door or before?
20 A. Before I passed through the door. When I reached the metal door,
21 when I reached him, he said, "Hands up." I raised my hands. Then he
22 searched me. I didn't even have a comb or a handkerchief at that moment.
23 He frisked me and he hit me twice, and the other one lifted me and said,
24 "Nothing bad's going to happen to you."
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Burilo is listed under number 56
1 on P-3.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. And in relation to your interrogation, I would like to know if
5 Mr. Vladicic was the only person present during the interrogation or was
6 there someone else in the room?
7 A. I couldn't really say. There was another man at the office where
8 Vladicic worked. He didn't say anything to me. I was giving my statement
9 to Zoran. I didn't know that man who was standing at some distance, and I
10 knew Zoran from before the war.
11 Q. And this other person, did he wear civilian clothes or military
12 clothes or police clothes? Do you recall?
13 A. As far as I remember, he was in civilian uniform, the other one
14 who was standing there on the other side. I didn't know him, and he never
15 addressed me anyway. I was just giving my statement to Zoran.
16 Q. And after the interrogation was finished, did Mr. Vladicic say
17 anything to you or to the guard?
18 A. When I finished, when I had been interrogated by Zoran Vladicic,
19 this policeman Predo asked, "What are we going to do with him?" He said,
20 "Take him to Room 11. He is okay."
21 Q. On this particular day, was anyone else being interrogated before
22 or after you in the same room or in the adjacent rooms?
23 A. I cannot remember that because I was the last one to stay in that
24 building before being interrogated. I didn't see anyone else going to
1 Q. And you have already started to describe how you were beaten in
2 the yard. When were you beaten in the yard later?
3 A. Once when we were going to lunch or breakfast or supper, sometimes
4 they would let out one or two rooms at the same time or even three rooms,
5 and to tell you honestly, when we were going back, some of the people
6 would grab some grass from the lawn and the guards would run after us
7 angrily and hit us. Sometimes I got hit and other people got hit too.
8 This Burilo, he called us "motherfuckers" and cursed us and cursed our
10 Q. Witness, were you ever beaten by soldiers when you passed through
11 the yard?
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. An entire sentence is
13 missing from the transcript. When the witness said that it was only when
14 he went to Kalinovik that he experienced, and I don't want to repeat his
15 words here. Perhaps my learned friend could repeat the question. The
16 witness was saying that at the KP Dom, he experienced what he experienced,
17 and it was only at Kalinovik that he really had it bad and that wasn't
18 recorded in the transcript.
19 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I understand where you suggest the
20 qualification should be inserted in the answer. Was it in the course of
21 the answer or the beginning or the end or where?
22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just behind 22 and 23,
23 it says, "Our mother," and then continues the sentence which I am saying
24 is missing, which means line 23 on page 55.
25 JUDGE HUNT: At the end of the answer as it is recorded. And what
1 were the words which you say were used?
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. We really didn't
3 get all of it.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [No translation]
5 JUDGE HUNT: We're getting nothing.
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think there is
7 another mistake because in the transcript the witness said Burilo and it
8 was actually the soldiers. That is one thing. And another thing, after
9 this sentence there should come what I just mentioned. He experienced in
10 the KP Dom only those unpleasant things that he experienced, but he really
11 had it bad only in Kalinovik, and that's what he mentioned happened to
12 him. I don't want to repeat the whole sentence.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think the best thing to do would be to ask
14 him a series of questions to try and get the whole of that out. The
15 interpreters concede that they missed part of the answer.
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
17 JUDGE HUNT: It was quite a long answer.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
19 Q. Witness, you said that detainees were beaten in the yard, and you
20 among them as well. Who beat you in the yard in the KP Dom? We are only
21 talking about the KP Dom.
22 A. I don't know who hit me. They were in military clothing. Five or
23 six of them would come down on us when we were coming from breakfast. The
24 guards there were driving us hard to get into the building as fast as we
25 can. Five or six soldiers came down on us who were standing around.
1 Sometimes they would hit us; sometimes they wouldn't. Once I got hit a
2 couple of times. Other people fared worse because they couldn't go
3 faster. That's it.
4 Q. And when did this happen that soldiers beat you and other
5 detainees? Was it in the beginning of your defence or later? Do you
7 A. That is -- that was in the beginning, in the first months. In
9 Q. And what were the soldiers doing in the yard? Why were they
10 there? Do you know that?
11 A. To tell you honestly, I don't know what they were doing down there
12 in the compound and whether they were coming to the canteen or whether
13 they were doing some work there. I didn't know anyone, and I didn't know
14 what they were doing.
15 JUDGE HUNT: That might be an appropriate place to break.
16 Mr. Bakrac, it may be best if you obtained that concession by way
17 of cross-examination. I don't think the Prosecution needs to go into
18 that, but you certainly may, if you wish.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But, Your Honour, just a remark. I will also
20 ask him a few questions about Kalinovik, and I am aware that he will say
22 JUDGE HUNT: Okay. We'll resume at 3.00
23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.30 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.00 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness --
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: He has no earphones on. Can you help him
6 with the earphones?
7 Q. Witness, before the break, you told us how you were beaten in the
8 yard on one occasion, and I have just a few more questions related to
10 The hits that you received on this occasion, were they heavy
12 A. Well, let me tell you, this was in the beginning, the first
13 month. When the soldiers were with us, then we were hit. I was hit
14 once. Others were hit several times because it varied from room to room.
15 That was during the first month while the soldiers were with us.
16 Q. Yes. And my question was: Did those blows that you received on
17 this one occasion, did it hurt you? Were they heavy blows?
18 A. Oh, well, a blow or two. Well, he hit you as much as he could and
19 not whether it hurt you or not. Well ...
20 Q. Was it painful?
21 A. Well, it was painful. Let's say it was supposed to be painful.
22 Q. And do you recall anybody else by name who was beaten as well, any
23 of the other detainees who were beaten with you?
24 A. No. This was according to groups, sometimes when people would go
25 out to breakfast or lunch or when they were older people who couldn't go
1 out for meals. Then also sometimes we would be pushed into our rooms, to
2 get into them as soon as possible. This was the month of April while the
3 soldiers were with us, while we ate military cans.
4 Q. Were guards, regular prison guards present when that happened?
5 A. Well, they tried to put us away. There were good ones among them
6 who were trying to put us away, shelter us, who told us, "Go into the
7 rooms. They won't go into the rooms." There were good men among the
8 guards who said that to us. For example, if it were Risto Ivanovic's
9 shift, he would get us into the rooms even before our time was up.
10 Q. And you said good men among the guards helped in a way. What
11 about the bad men among the guards? Were there such men too?
12 A. Well, what I can tell you is that no matter how many statements
13 are given, the number of people that Burilo beat up can only be bigger
14 than that. Not only me. It's not only the people who gave statements
15 that were beaten up by Burilo. Whereas among the policemen, there were
16 some who did not say a bad word to anyone.
17 Q. Witness, did the guards -- when those beatings in the yard
18 occurred, did the soldiers ever stop the guards from beating the
20 A. Well, he didn't stop them. They just said to us, "If you see they
21 are coming towards you, run to your rooms and get into your rooms as soon
22 as you can." They didn't dare stop them and tell them not to beat us.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this incident and this kind of
24 incident are part of 5.11 in the indictment.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
2 Q. Witness, were detainees beaten in the administration building? Do
3 you know that?
4 A. I didn't really understand what you said well.
5 Q. Were detainees beaten in the administration building, in
6 particular, in the evenings?
7 A. In the evenings? There were no beatings in the evening. There
8 was a roll-call at 8.00 in the evening so that they could see how many of
9 us are in each room, so that they could see whether we were all there.
10 But then, all of a sudden later, guards brought in some papers and then
11 they would tell some people to go out to make a statement. They would
12 take two or three persons from each room, for instance, and then they
13 would go out there to give those statements.
14 Q. Did this occur throughout your detention or was it only in a
15 certain period of time? When did this happen?
16 A. Well, I can tell you that that was in a certain period of time.
17 Somebody wrote some kind of papers. I don't know. This went through
18 papers. I don't know. It was the end of April, the month of May, and
19 then it was through these papers and then it sort of calmed down. It was
20 slower then.
21 Q. And you speak of papers. What kind of papers were they? Were
22 they lists or notes? Did you ever have a look at it?
23 A. No. I did manage to see the papers. The policeman on duty would
24 always bring a paper and call out such-and-such a name, and then he'd say,
25 "Come on, you're coming with me to give a statement."
1 Q. Could you see where the selected detainees were taken?
2 A. These detainees, they were taken straight to the gate where the
3 assembly room was, towards the gate.
4 Q. Yes. Were they taken through the metal door?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] In line 16, a part seems to be
8 missing. When the witness said there, where we went to give statements.
9 It only says here, "through that door," and the witness added something to
10 his sentence, "Where we went to make statements."
11 A. I wouldn't know about this metal door. We went there to make
12 statements. That's where people were taken. It was in that direction.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm still trying to find the expression "through
15 the door." Line 16, to which you refer, is "towards the gate," and the
16 question was, "Yes. Were they taken through the metal door?"
17 What do you say it should have been?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] At the end of the sentence, the
19 witness said what he repeated just now for the transcript, that these
20 people were taken to where statements were being given. That's what he
21 said earlier on, and he repeated that now in the transcript, Your Honour.
22 So that was the end of the sentence. "Towards the metal door,"
23 and then they were taken to where statements were given. That is the part
24 that's missing from the transcript, and the witness seems to have
25 explained it now.
1 JUDGE HUNT: If you think it's important, at least it's now been
3 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
5 Q. When the detainees were out of your view, could you hear any
6 sounds of beatings or screaming?
7 A. We heard this when they were taking these groups out. Sounds were
8 coming from this assembly room where they had been taken; staff room.
9 Q. Where was this assembly room or staff room? Where was it in the
11 A. That room was near number 11 from the first building.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, with the help of the usher, I
13 would like to show the witness the photo 7477.
14 Q. Witness, if you look at this photo, does this look familiar to
16 A. I cannot orient myself here. What I know here is that there was
17 Room 11 below the central warehouse. Do you have a photograph of the
18 central warehouse? My room, Room 11, was right above it, right above the
19 central warehouse. As for this photograph, I don't know if you understand
20 what I'm telling you, but I cannot orient myself.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
23 show the witness the photo 7473.
24 Q. Does this look familiar to you? Can you orient yourself? Would
25 you please look at the ELMO.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Give the photo to the witness first.
2 Q. Please have a look at this photo. When you see what it shows --
3 A. I see the building of the KP Dom. However, the only thing I know
4 is that my room was above the central warehouse. I've been looking at
5 this photograph, perhaps you've got one too, but really, I cannot orient
6 myself now.
7 Q. This assembly room that you spoke about, is it in the same
8 building where your room was?
9 A. No, it was not in the same building. It was not in the same
10 building. It was separate here. Building number 11 and the assembly room
11 was here. Whether it was over there from the exit door, the outside door,
12 I don't know, but some -- before the war, detainees -- prisoners received
13 visitors there through that assembly room. I passed through that assembly
14 room when I went to make a statement.
15 Q. Witness, you have clarified now, and I think everybody understands
16 now where the room is that you're talking about. You need not look at
17 photographs any longer.
18 A. I don't know if you understand what I'm telling you. I can't
19 really see much in these things, but if you could show me the central
20 warehouse, I think I ...
21 Q. No, that wouldn't really help because we're talking about the
22 assembly room and not about the room where you were. It's okay. It's
23 cleared. Thank you.
24 Witness, can you tell us the names of detainees that you
25 remembered that were called out from your room and taken away to this
1 assembly room?
2 A. I can say that they were taken in smaller groups in the month of
3 May. It may have spilled over into June as well. Esad Soro Halilovic,
4 Kemo Dzelilovic, Nail Hodzic, Mustafa Kuloglija. Uzunovic Enes, Seval
5 Soro, Alija Altoka, and -- I had a list here. If you allow me, perhaps I
6 haven't mentioned two men.
7 Q. Witness, before you use your list, I would like to know, when did
8 you make the list?
9 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I had made this list earlier on too
10 so that I would know that these people were with me, if we ever survived.
11 However, nothing doing. All of that was thrown away when we went to
12 Kalinovik. Even our handkerchiefs and shoelaces were thrown away,
13 everything. Then the bags we carried. When I found out that I was
14 supposed to come here, I had to remember the people who were taken out
15 during the night. I believe that my other colleagues who will be coming
16 here will not deny that about these men.
17 Q. Witness, please take your list. Do you have the notes with you,
18 this list that you just spoke about?
19 A. I have got some notes. Please will you allow me to look at them?
20 I may have made a mistake with regard to, say, two men.
21 Q. Witness, just use the list --
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honours, this list containing 11 names
23 was distributed to all parties.
24 JUDGE HUNT: We still don't know when he made it, though.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I just want to clarify this with you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE HUNT: That would be, I think, preferable.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
3 Q. This particular list, Witness, which is now in front of you, when
4 did you write it? When?
5 A. I had made that list earlier on, earlier on, if I would ever find
6 anything out about these people, whether these people are alive or not
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour. Again we have a mistake
9 of substance in the transcript. The witness said, "I made this mistake
10 earlier on too," but he said he made it earlier on too, and that is a big
12 JUDGE HUNT: I don't see what the substance in this is at all.
13 All we're asking him for, with some difficulty getting an answer, is when
14 he wrote it. That's all we want to know. These answers, so far, are
15 totally irrelevant to anything. Now, just let us find out when he wrote
16 it, about when, and if there is some problem that arises out of that,
17 you can raise it. But if there was something left out in one of his
18 answers, I can assure you they are totally useless to us in this trial.
19 Now, sir, please, will you tell us, when did you sit down and
20 write this list out? What year was it?
21 A. The year was 1992, when I was in Foca, when these people were
22 taken out. That was in 1992. However, I --
23 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. That's enough. That's all we want to have
24 at the moment.
25 Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you want to tender it, do you?
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but I think there is a mistake.
2 Q. This list, Witness, in front of you, did you make it after your
3 release from the KP Dom? This list, did you make it after your
5 A. I did not. I just repeated this list when I was released from the
6 KP Dom. I made a list to see whether everything was the same, whether
7 everything corresponded so that if I would come here, I wanted to see
8 whether all these people I had written before matched this.
9 Q. So this list that you have now in your hand you produced after
10 your release, but it's a similar one that you made during your time in the
11 KP Dom. Is that what you say?
12 A. Of course. Right. That's it. It's not that I expressed myself
13 that way, but that was the case.
14 Q. And in which year did you make this duplicate list?
15 A. 1992.
16 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'd better try again, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
18 Q. Witness, you have told us that in the KP Dom you made a list, but
19 this list was actually taken away from you, but the names you remembered
20 and you wrote down after your release. When did you write it down after
21 your release?
22 A. I wrote this list when I was exchanged in Trnovo. Let me repeat
23 these people's names.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. You've just got to answer the
25 questions. We'll get nowhere if you keep on trying to say something you
1 haven't been asked about.
2 What year were you released?
3 A. I was released in 1993.
4 JUDGE HUNT: And how long after you were released did you write
5 out this duplicate list or what you say is a duplicate list?
6 A. I wrote it sometime when I got home, perhaps within a month's
7 time. I was always thinking about the list that had to do with my
8 statement. I always thought I'd go to a court, because my first list was
9 thrown away when I left Foca.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
11 Now, I think we've got approximate date of when it was written.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. And I would like to enter this into
13 evidence and then discuss number -- name by name with the witness.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Has it got an ID number?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection to the list, Mr. Bakrac? You can ask
17 him about his mistakes later on.
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I just
19 want to explain that my objection was in the following direction: That
20 there were two lists, and that's the difference in that mistake; "this
21 list too."
22 However, never mind. Before the Defence says what it has to say,
23 it would like to have a look at the original that the witness is holding
24 in his hand. So could the usher help us and let us have a look at the
25 list that the witness is holding in his hand right now.
1 JUDGE HUNT: You mean the original of which this is a photostat
2 copy. He doesn't pretend to have the original list, the one that he wrote
3 in 1992.
4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, then the list he has in
5 his hands right now.
6 JUDGE HUNT: You want to see it.
7 Any objection, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Right. Mr. Usher, would you please take it from the
10 witness and show it to Mr. Bakrac.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: And just for the information for the Court, I
12 saw this list during the conference, before, when he came here, and I made
13 these copies.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Some people may have an overcautious approach to
15 these things, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, but I think the Defence is entitled to
16 do it this way.
17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence wanted to
18 see whether this paper was nine years old. However, that is going to be a
19 subject of our cross-examination. This is not a photocopy. This is the
21 We do not object to having this piece of paper admitted into
22 evidence. The usher can return this to the witness. However, the witness
23 has another piece of paper in front of him, and the Defence would like to
24 know what that is.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I think as long as we do not discuss the
1 matter of the other papers he has, I think there's no reason.
2 JUDGE HUNT: He may have a letter from his mother. What's it got
3 to do with you at this stage? If he uses it for the purposes of
4 refreshing his recollection, that's a completely different thing.
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it seemed to me that the
6 witness was holding this piece of paper in his hands because he wanted to
7 refresh his memory. Of course, I don't want to go into his personal
8 letters or am I interested in that, but he held this piece of paper as if
9 he wanted to use it.
10 JUDGE HUNT: You are not only an expert on the age of paper but
11 also you can read minds, I gather, Mr. Bakrac. Anyway, wait until he
12 wants to use it for the purposes of refreshing his recollection. Then we
13 will inquire as to what it is.
14 At the moment, this is Exhibit P444. Now, is there a need for any
15 of these names to be under seal?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour. It's actually people from
17 Schedule C and B.
18 JUDGE HUNT: I recognise a few of the names, anyway. Thank you.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
20 Q. Witness, please take the list with the 11 names, and please tell
21 us what you saw happen to Mr. Nail Hodzic, the first name on your list.
22 Please use your list. Open it. Open your list and look at it.
23 A. I can say only about Nail that he was taken away. He was taken
24 away by the policemen from the KP Dom. He said, "Nail, come out to give a
25 statement," and he said, "Brothers, what are you doing? What have I got
1 to do with statements?" and he said, "Nail, you'll be right back.
2 You're just supposed to give a statement." So this Nail perhaps went
3 there two or three times and then, all of sudden, he was taken away and
4 never returned.
5 Q. Did you see Mr. Hodzic return from one of these interrogations
6 with injuries?
7 A. In that sadness, I could not walk up to him to see whether he had
8 any injuries. The man returned from there sad. He came back twice or
9 three times, and then the last time he didn't return.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person Nail Hodzic is
11 mentioned under B-28 and C-10.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. Kemo Dzelilovic, was he taken once, twice, or how often?
15 A. Kemo Dzelilovic, too, was taken out in that time frame two or
16 three times, and the only thing we noticed -- I noticed when he came back
17 once. Vahida Dzemo, he was a policeman before in Foca.
18 Q. Witness, let me interrupt you. You were just speaking about Kemo
19 Dzelilovic, and all I heard is that you said you noticed something.
20 A. Oh, you mean Kemo.
21 Q. Yes. You said you noticed something when he returned. What did
22 you notice?
23 A. We noticed some blows on him, this Kemo Dzelilovic. I didn't ask
24 him who had hit him, nor did he tell us. Some yelling could be heard from
25 outside, and once when they came to pick him up, one night, how he turned
1 out, I don't know. However, none of them has been heard from since, none
2 of those people.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's B-19 and C-7 for Kemo
5 Q. You have started with Dzemo Vahida. Was he taken out on several
6 occasions as well?
7 A. Yes. Dzemo Vahida, I can tell you sincerely that I saw him when
8 he was returned. He was a policeman in Foca. He was holding his own head
9 with his hands. He said he had been hit -- kicked in the head. I don't
10 know what had happened to him exactly, but he was holding his hand on his
11 face and he said two of his teeth were broken.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Dzemo Vahida is in the
13 indictment in the incident 5.29 and also on Schedule C, number 27.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
16 Q. Mustafa Kuloglija. What can you tell us about him?
17 A. About him, I couldn't tell you anything. He was taken away in the
18 same groups in the evening. He used to reside in Aladza, where he had an
19 apartment, in Foca. I knew him as a good neighbour. He left during the
20 night. He wasn't even in the same room with me. He was in the room next
21 door. But when he left, he never returned.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this is C-15 and B-34.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
25 Q. Alija Altoka. Was he in your room, and what happened to him?
1 A. Alija Altoka was in my room. He had a father by the name of
2 Omer. He was in my room. He was a young man, a boy practically, perhaps
3 the youngest of all the people I've mentioned. He was taken on the same
4 journey, and he -- well, the same.
5 Q. And you said he was the youngest among you. How old was he,
7 A. He was about 30 years old. Of all the people that I have
8 mentioned here, he was the youngest of those boys, young men.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-1.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
12 Q. Witness, you have listed under number 6 Soro Dzevad, but you have
13 crossed him out. Why is he on the list and why did you cross him out?
14 A. I crossed this man out. He didn't leave then during the night
15 when those others were taken. This man, Dzevad Soro, was with me in the
16 same room when I was transferred to Room 18 sometime in end July.
17 Q. And the next person is Soro Seval. What can you tell us about
18 him? Was he in your room and was he taken?
19 A. Seval Soro was not in my room. He was in the room next door. He
20 was an electrician by occupation. He told us he had two children. He was
21 also a young man, an electrician. He was also taken during the night the
22 same way.
23 Q. Was he taken several times or did you see him being taken only
25 A. Well, from what I know about him, he was taken once and he wasn't
1 returned, this Seval Soro who was an electrician by occupation.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed under C-15
3 and B-54.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
6 Q. The next person, Munib Veiz, was he in your room, and what
7 happened to him?
8 A. Munib Veiz. He wasn't in my room either. He was in a
9 neighbouring room. He was a trader, a salesperson. He worked in a
10 leather shop near the bazaar. He was a big, fat man. Once he returned
11 beaten up so badly that we had to feed him like a chicken. We brought him
12 the soup, the little soup we could find, and some bread. We didn't even
13 dare ask him who had beat him up. He was suffering something terrible.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this Munib Veiz is listed under
15 B-59 and C-28.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. The next person, Meho Sofradzija, was he in your room, and what
19 can you tell us about him?
20 A. About Meho Sofradzija, I can tell you that he was not in my room
21 either. I heard his voice only once when somebody was interrogating him
22 out there. He said -- he was asked what had happened, and he just cried
23 for help, something like, "Dear mother, help me." It was nothing. And
24 the person insisted. I wasn't the only one heard it. Others heard it too
25 when he was saying, "I didn't have any. I didn't have any," and the other
1 person said, "Your neighbours said you did," and he said, "I didn't." He
2 was taken out in one of the groups when people were taken out by four or
3 five from a room and that's how he went.
4 Q. Did you know him so well that you could recognise his voice?
5 A. Yes. I knew that man from the civilian days. He was not far away
6 from me. I knew him from civilian days. I knew he worked in the town
7 hall in some institution. That's where he was.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed under
10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
12 Q. Next, you had listed Reko Rasim. Who is that, and what can you
13 tell us about him?
14 A. Rasim Reko. He, too, was a neighbour of mine. He lived close
15 to me, from Josanica or some place. He worked at the carpenter's shop of
16 the KP Dom. I don't know about his beatings. All I know is he was taken
17 out one evening. I didn't hear his voice. I didn't hear him screaming or
18 defending himself. I knew him. He was working at the carpentry of the
19 KP Dom where furniture was produced.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is not on any of the
22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
24 Q. And the last person from your list is Enes Uzunovic. Was he in
25 your room or what can you tell us about him?
1 A. As for Enes Uzunovic, I didn't know this man. He was in my room,
2 though. He had something -- there was something wrong with him. He was
3 pulling at his hair and crying for help all the time. The first month
4 when they were still allowing visits, in April, he was returned. He
5 couldn't see the wife and children who were allowed to see him, and he
6 kept crying all the time. What was wrong with him, I don't know. I
7 didn't even know the man.
8 Q. Did you see him return to the room with injuries?
9 A. I didn't notice any injuries. All I remember, all that I noticed
10 when we had this visit is that he was returned from the gate. His wife
11 and daughter were going towards him and wanted to hug him, but they didn't
12 allow him to meet them. He was returned from the gate then. And he later
13 disappeared like other people disappeared at certain intervals.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person is listed under C-26
15 and 5.29 in the indictment.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Witness, do you know a Jusuf Dzamalija?
19 A. Juso Dzamalija, [redacted].
20 [redacted]. He came to the isolation cell. It
21 was not only me. Many people saw him when he came into the isolation
22 cell. Several days later, Juso Dzamalija was carried out of the isolation
23 cell in a blanket. Whether he had killed himself or he was killed,
24 whether he survived, I don't know. All I know is that, three months
25 later, he was carried out in a blanket. But --
1 Q. Three months later after what? After what he was brought in or
3 A. Can you repeat the question? I didn't understand it.
4 Q. You said that, "All I know is that, three months later, he was
5 carried out in a blanket," and my question was: Three months later after
7 A. I don't know. Maybe I made a mistake. It was not three months.
8 He had been there several days. I knew the man well. We had worked
9 together. But I want to tell you what I know.
10 Rumour had it that this man had killed himself in the isolation
11 cell. How much truth there is in this claim, I don't know. Maybe he
12 killed himself, maybe he was killed, but that's the story that circulated
13 about this person.
14 Q. And did you see him being carried out in a blanket?
15 A. I could see through a small window when he was carried out.
16 Whether he had committed suicide or was killed, whether he was dead at
17 all, I don't know. All I know is that he was carried out.
18 Q. Who carried him? Was it guards or who? Who carried him?
19 A. The guards carried him out then. What happened to him, I really
20 can't say.
21 Q. Did you recognise his body or him in the blanket? Did you see him
22 actually in the blanket?
23 A. I did see him on the blanket, but I was at some distance, looking
24 through the window. He was in that isolation cell. I remember when he
25 went there, and I remember when he was returned. Whether he was on that
1 blanket dead or alive, what he had done to himself, I don't know. All I
2 know is that he worked in Perucica.
3 Q. Witness, what I wanted to know is did you recognise him when he
4 was carried in the blanket? Did you actually see his body or him?
5 A. Yes. I swear I did recognise him.
6 Q. Who was the warden in the KP Dom? Do you know that?
7 A. About the warden of the KP Dom, I can say I didn't know the warden
8 of the KP Dom before the war. I didn't even meet him in the KP Dom. Only
9 when the visits were allowed in the first month, in April, my daughter and
10 wife came to visit me, to see me. They were brought by a Serb neighbour
11 in a car. They passed through. They came to see me. They were at the
12 door. I don't remember which door it was. Somebody asked them, "Who do
13 you want to see?" They said -- my daughter said, "I want to see my dad."
14 They said, "You can't." Then they started crying. There was the guard on
15 duty, Risto Ivanovic, who knew me and my daughter, and he said to her,
16 "Come on. Come on, girl. The warden is only joking. Why are you
17 crying?" And she said, "The warden said I couldn't see you." And this
18 daughter of mine, she knew him from before the war, from school.
19 Q. Let me just go into some more details. Who was the warden? Can
20 you tell us his name?
21 A. I know that in the beginning of the war, the warden was Milorad
22 Krnojelac. When he was replaced, at what time, whether it was in the
23 summer or not or which year, I don't know.
24 Q. And when you met your daughter, when you could see your daughter
25 and your wife, what exactly did your daughter tell you about meeting the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. My daughter said, when she came to me, "Why are you crying?" And
3 she says, "The warden wouldn't let me come through." And this neighbour,
4 Ivanovic, who knew her, patted her on the shoulder and said, "Come
5 through. Come through, girl. The warden is probably joking." And then
6 if you bring 300 prisoners here, they will all confirm that he was, from
7 the beginning of the war, that he was warden and what he was doing.
8 Q. Did your daughter, when she spoke about the warden, did she
9 mention the name of Mr. Krnojelac?
10 A. Yes. They knew each other in school.
11 Q. And when your daughter was talking to you, did she actually
12 mention that the warden was Mr. Krnojelac? What did she say? Try to
13 remember what exactly she said.
14 A. She said -- when she came to me, she was crying. I asked, "What's
15 the matter with you?" And she said, "The warden of the KP Dom wouldn't
16 let me through just now," and this neighbour, Risto Ivanovic, patted her
17 on the shoulder and said, "Come through, girl. The warden is probably
18 just joking."
19 Q. Did you hear from anyone else that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden or
20 was this your only reference?
21 A. I heard -- I once already told you, no matter how many witnesses
22 you bring -- but the thing is, I don't know how long he was warden, until
23 when, and when he was replaced. But until he was replaced, he was the
24 warden in that month. It was the April, when the war started.
25 Q. Witness, I had asked you - and please answer my question - who
1 else besides your daughter mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was the warden?
2 A. I think that all the statements that exist here from prisoners, I
3 believe all of them said that he was the warden.
4 Q. Witness, did the guards ever mention that Mr. Krnojelac was the
6 A. They didn't tell me. These guards, they had no conflicts with
7 me. They just took me in or out whenever necessary. We had no particular
8 communication with them.
9 Q. Witness, you gave a statement to the Prosecutor's office. Do you
10 remember that? It was in 1996.
11 A. 1996? I don't remember that I mentioned anything then, because I
12 wasn't in the KP Dom then at all. I was exchanged in 1993.
13 Q. Witness, I was asking you, did you give a statement to the
14 Prosecutor's office, to investigators, after your release?
15 A. Most probably I gave a statement, I gave that statement.
16 Q. Let me please cite from your statement, and it's page 4, paragraph
17 4 -- sorry, first paragraph in the English version, and it's the same in
18 the B/C/S version. "During my detention at KP Dom, I have never met
19 Milorad Krnojelac. The name sounds familiar to me. I heard the guard
20 mentioning him. They were looking for him to solve problems. During my
21 stay, I have never met or heard about Savo Todovic."
22 Does this jog your memory?
23 A. Whether you believe it or not, I have no complete data at all
24 about Slavko Todovic because I never heard anything about that man. How
25 he performed his duties, what he did, what he represented, I have no
2 Q. Let me interrupt you. We were not talking about Slavko Todovic,
3 we were talking about Mr. Krnojelac, and at least in your previous
4 statement, you mentioned that you heard guards mentioning him when a
5 problem had to be solved. Do you recall anything like this, or don't you
6 remember any longer?
7 A. I cannot remember that. I only remember what my daughter said
8 about knowing him from school when she came in April to visit me. As for
9 these events, I really cannot remember.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it may be relevant that he said
11 he'd never heard of Mr. Todovic either in his statement as to what weight
12 we give to the previous one, but your question that you've put to him does
13 not put that fact into evidence. I'm only drawing your attention to
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you. I was coming to Mr. Todovic
16 and Mr. Rasevic next.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but you've just put it to him that's what his
18 statement says. There is no evidence before us that's what his statement
19 does say, and it may be you need to follow the procedure we've
20 now adopted by asking the Defence, at the appropriate stage, to accept
21 that that is in his statement.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I can do it right now, actually.
23 JUDGE HUNT: If you like, yes.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Bakrac, Mr. Vasic, do you accept that
25 what I just read is in the statement, this paragraph about Mr. Krnojelac
1 and about him never hearing or meeting Slavko Todovic? The reference was
2 page 4, first paragraph in --
3 JUDGE HUNT: I think you'll have to ask in relation to both
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: There is only one statement.
6 JUDGE HUNT: No, no. Both statements -- I'm sorry. Both
7 sentences in that statement.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
9 JUDGE HUNT: What you read out before was: "During my detention
10 at KP Dom, I never met Milorad Krnojelac. The name sounds familiar to me.
11 I heard the guard mentioning him. They were looking for him to solve
12 problems. During my stay, I've never met or heard about Savo Todovic."
13 You seek to have a concession from the Defence that that appeared
14 in this witness's statement that he gave to the OTP.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. As my learned
16 friend read it out, that is the same thing that is written in his
17 statement which we have received.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
20 Q. Witness, you mentioned already that you do not know Savo Todovic,
21 and you cannot say what function he had. Do you know Mitar Rasevic and
22 his function?
23 A. About Todovic, I guarantee to you with my life that I don't know
24 anything. And as for Rasevic, they said he was the police commander
25 there, Mitar Rasevic, that he was commander of the police at the KP Dom.
1 Q. And did you see him in the KP Dom?
2 A. Yes, I saw him a couple of times. He didn't hit me. He didn't
3 say anything to me. He would sometimes come on inspection tours, when
4 roll-calls were made. He was together with a policeman on duty. I
5 remember one case in August when a lot of people were taken out, taken to
6 pick some fruit, they explained to those people that, "You're going to
7 work. You're going to pick fruit. Don't take too many things." There
8 was a policeman called Pasovic. They took those people away. Where they
9 went, I don't know. All I know is that those people are missing today.
10 Not a single one of them reappeared that I know of.
11 For this fruit picking, they were taken out in broad daylight,
12 according to the list they brought with them. There were only young men
13 on that list.
14 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
15 A. Thank you, too, Your Honour.
16 Q. Witness, you said that you were detained until November or
17 December 1992. Where were you taken from KP Dom; to which place?
18 A. I was taken from the camp in Foca to the KP Dom at Kalinovik.
19 There were 13 other men. We got this piece of information: "You're going
20 for an exchange." The policeman on duty in the morning, he said, "You're
21 going out for an exchange. I'm now going to take care of breakfast,
22 together with the other detainees, and you get your things ready. You'll
23 be the last to have breakfast, and after breakfast, I'm going to take you
24 to the gate and then there will be a roll-call waiting for you."
25 Q. In this group of 13 people that you mentioned that were taken
1 together with you, was there the person who is listed under the number 69
2 on this sheet of paper in front of you?
3 A. Yes. That person number 69 was there. I guarantee that with my
4 own life and my own head.
5 Q. Witness, who took you to Kalinovik? Was it the soldiers or the
7 A. I can say that the guards did not take us. The guard who was with
8 us only took us to the gate, and he said, "Wait for the roll-call." Then
9 the roll-call happened. One by one, as the roll-call went on, we started
10 going out. There was this Land Rover there, and we were getting into the
11 Land Rover one by one. Who had an extra shirt or extra clothes or
12 whatever could not take it. They could only go to Kalinovik wearing the
13 trousers and the shirts we had. They even made us take shoelaces out of
14 our shoes. If we had any, they made us throw them out. There were
15 military soldiers there and then there was the Land Rover and there was
16 the James there, the James with the tarpaulin. We were enclosed in that.
17 Q. The James, is that a kind of truck or what is a James?
18 A. A truck, a military truck.
19 Q. And on your way to Kalinovik, were you mistreated?
20 A. On the road to Kalinovik, I can say that we were beaten badly. We
21 came to Kalinovik. I could not recognise these people. They were -- they
22 were soldiers, quite tall, yellowish, and there was some kind of police
23 and this Land Rover, and there were four with us up on the vehicle. They
24 threw away all our things. We came to Kalinovik at the worst time, during
25 the winter, and we only wore trousers and shirts.
1 Q. Where did you stay in Kalinovik? In which particular place?
2 A. In Kalinovik, we were put up at some kind of a military warehouse,
3 an abandoned warehouse within a compound. We came there. They opened the
4 vehicle. We couldn't even walk down those two or three steps. They had
5 to take us by the hand and throw us out there as if we were logs.
6 We stayed there. We had no conditions there whatsoever as
7 compared to Foca.
8 Q. How long did you stay in Kalinovik, in this military warehouse?
9 A. You know what? There were people there. One week there would be
10 one exchange. The police would come from the MUP and they would take one,
11 and they'd say nicely, "You're going out for an exchange." There was only
12 one day when two men were taken out. But there were some people there who
13 even stayed for three months. I was the fourth person there.
14 When I was exchanged from Kalinovik, then three of my colleagues
15 remained there, and the exchanges were extinguished.
16 Q. And when were you exchanged, on what day? Do you know that? Or
17 what month?
18 A. I was exchanged from Kalinovik. I was exchanged on the 9th of
19 February, 1993.
20 Q. When you were arrested in April 1992, were you a healthy man?
21 A. Your Honour, I swear on my mother's grave that I had been in good
22 health. I was not beaten too much in the house. All the beatings we got,
23 we got at Kalinovik.
24 Q. Witness, when you left the KP Dom -- we're speaking about -- now
25 in steps. When you left the KP Dom, what was your physical condition at
1 that time? Yes. When you left the KP Dom in November or December 1992,
2 what was your physical condition?
3 A. My health condition? I'm not going to lie to you. I swear by my
4 mother and by my children, when I left from Foca -- I mean, before, my
5 health was good, but when I left from Kalinovik, when I went home --
6 Q. We're not talking about Kalinovik now. I want to know how was
7 your condition when you left Foca, when you left the KP Dom? Did you have
8 physical effects from the confinement at that time?
9 A. Maybe something small or physical. Some of these effects from
10 Foca, no, but all of the effects came later.
11 Q. Yes. And what was your physical condition when you left
13 A. Well, from Kalinovik, that was really terrible. My condition
14 after Kalinovik, that was really terrible. Until the present day --
15 JUDGE HUNT: Is this really relevant? I mean, we've got to stop
16 this sort of thing. How is it relevant in this trial?
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's part of the widespread and systematic
18 conditions in the other camps.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, see if you can get a short answer out of him,
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
22 Q. You had trouble to get here to testify because of your physical
23 condition. Does this relate to Kalinovik condition, your rheumatism and
24 your bone problems?
25 A. All of it is from Kalinovik. All my problems were from Kalinovik,
1 and that's why I kept putting off my coming here, because --
2 Q. Yes. Thank you.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Just tell us what your physical condition was,
4 shortly, when you left Kalinovik, please.
5 A. Good. Pretty good. But all the effects I had, I got at
6 Kalinovik, up there at Kalinovik.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
8 Q. And what were the symptoms that you had? What was it that you
10 A. You mean who beat us?
11 Q. No, the physical results. What injuries did you have? What
12 about your rheumatism?
13 A. I had effects when I left Kalinovik. I have a bad back, I have a
14 bad hip, I have a bad knee, I had a broken rib. All of these are the
15 effects of Kalinovik.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions we have.
18 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I don't really want to reopen this, but if
19 you're relying upon it, don't you have to show that it wasn't from falling
20 out of a window or something?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
22 Q. Witness, the conditions that you had, the broken rib, the bone
23 problem, what caused these problems?
24 A. We had to be injured because they stripped us naked in Kalinovik
25 and beat us.
1 Can I tell you now about one case? Will you listen to me?
2 JUDGE HUNT: No, sir. No, no, please.
3 Is that not sufficient?
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, cross-examination.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
8 Q. Good afternoon, sir. I would like to introduce myself to you. I
9 am Miroslav Vasic, attorney-at-law, one of the Defence counsel for the
10 accused, Milorad Krnojelac.
11 First of all, sir, tell me, in addition to this statement that my
12 learned friend asked you about, the one that you gave to the investigators
13 of the OTP on the 20th of June, 1996, did you give two other statements,
14 one to the public security station on the 7th of February, 1993, and
15 another one to the sector of state security on the 29th of July, 1994?
16 A. I remember these statements, when I gave a statement in Trnovo,
17 when I came, and how many statements I gave, I can't know.
18 Q. In addition to the statement you gave in Trnovo, did you give a
19 statement on the 29th of July in 1994 in the state security centre in
20 Gorazde? Do you remember that?
21 A. I gave a statement in Gorazde. I gave a statement in Trnovo. I
22 also gave a statement once when they came to my home.
23 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, when you are answering a question from the
24 Defence counsel, because you're both speaking the same language, it is
25 very difficult for the interpreters to keep up with you. You know how
1 when you were answering questions from the Prosecution you waited until
2 the translation was finished before you answered it or answered those
3 questions. When you are speaking with Mr. Vasic here, you are both
4 speaking the same language, but the interpreters are still translating the
5 same question, even though he has stopped speaking. So just pause for a
6 short period before you answer the question.
7 A. I mean all of it seemed that way to me, too, that we'd get all of
8 this confused. This is the first trial I've ever been to in my lifetime,
9 and this is a really big thing for me, Your Honour. I am not familiar
10 with any of this. I -- it just came upon me.
11 JUDGE HUNT: We understand that. We understand you want to tell
12 us everything, but we really are here to hear your evidence on some very
13 narrow issues, and that's why we are trying to restrict you to that
14 evidence or to the evidence relating to those issues. We understand that
15 you have a lot that you would like to say. Unfortunately, we just simply
16 are unable to hear everything you want to say. We are very interested in
17 what you want to say about the issues we have to determine.
18 We understand, too, that this is your first trial. It's the first
19 trial for most people where you have these translation problems. There
20 are problems which are necessary, because we don't speak your language,
21 and we have to have your evidence translated into either English or
22 French, and it does take time for the translation. That's why I explained
23 it to you. We are not criticising you. We are just trying to help you to
24 help us so we hear your evidence.
25 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I would like you to
3 take a look at the first pages of these statements so that you could tell
4 us whether this is your signature on the bottom of these pages. It is
5 statements ID 252, 253, and 251.
6 If you've had a look, tell us whether these your statements that
7 you read and signed in your own hand.
8 A. If I can see this properly, these are my signatures. But as for
9 the statements, whether they match, well the signature is mine.
10 Q. Did you read these statements before you signed them? You signed
11 them on every page.
12 A. I don't remember that I read them.
13 Q. Thank you. Were these statements read out to you by the persons
14 who took them?
15 A. I swear -- I swear by my mother, and you know what a mother is,
16 that I really can't remember.
17 Q. Thank you, Witness. When you gave statements to these
18 authorities, did you give your personal details?
19 A. I had to give my personal details when they asked me for them, and
20 I did do that.
21 Q. Were these personal details entered into the statements that you
23 A. I don't know about that, about what you said.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like to
25 ask for a private session, to go into private session just for a short
1 while, just for a few questions, because they relate to the witness's
2 personal details, and if we would not going into private session, then the
3 public would become aware of his details.
4 JUDGE HUNT: That's all right, but is there some challenge to his
5 signature on the document? Nobody has suggested that it's not his
6 document. If you really need it, we'll certainly go into private
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I shall explain, Your Honour. I'm not
9 bringing into question or challenging the signature on the document. I
10 would like the witness to explain to me some of the details that he gave
11 when he made this statement. They are relevant to him. However, they
12 differ in respect of what he said today.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour --
14 JUDGE HUNT: You mean apart from the spelling of his name.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, maybe I can be of assistance.
16 When you look at the list, the sheet of paper, I put in brackets after the
17 date of birth the date of birth in the passport, because in the various
18 statements, it's always a different date more or less. Therefore, I
19 looked into the passport.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Anyway, how do you know that was correct? We'll go
21 into private session.
22 [Private session]
13 Page 4779 redacted – private session
13 Page 4780 redacted – private session
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE HUNT: We are now in public session.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Tell us, please, in which rooms were you during your stay at the
10 KP Dom and for what period of time?
11 A. I was in number 11.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Please, sir, you just have to pause.
13 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Did you hear the question? In which rooms were you during your
16 stay at the KP Dom and during which period of time? Just let the
17 interpreters finish and then start answering, please.
18 A. I was in Room 11 from the month of April until the month of July
20 Q. And from the month of July until the day of your exchange, in
21 which room were you?
22 A. In -- from July, I was transferred to Room 18, upstairs.
23 Q. Until when were you in Room 18?
24 A. Until, I think, the end of July.
25 Q. Until when were you in Room 18?
1 A. Until sometime in November 1992. Sometime in November 1992, I
2 went to Kalinovik.
3 JUDGE HUNT: I think we'll have it set up in the morning so that
4 the witness will have the transcript in front of him and he can see when
5 the typing finishes, but it's hardly worth trying to fix it up this
6 afternoon. Otherwise, I'm afraid, we'll never have a clean
8 We will adjourn now. 9.30 tomorrow. We're back to normal sitting
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.28 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of
12 March, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.