1 Thursday, 29
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.
9 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
10 MR. VASIC: Good morning, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: FWS-137 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, sir. Yesterday we talked about your coming to
15 the KP Dom. Today I would like to ask you about part of the statement you
16 made during your examination-in-chief, namely, that just before you came
17 to the KP Dom and just before you were detained by soldiers, you were in
18 the house of Mr. Hilmo Celic [as interpreted]; is that correct?
19 A. Hilmo Celo, is that what you said?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, certainly.
22 Q. How many people were in Hilmo Celo's house then?
23 A. In Hilmo Celo's house, there were about 15, and this company,
24 there were people from Krivaja, Cohodar Mahala. So when we, when we went
25 to the other house of Zahir Sandal, there were about 200 in addition to
1 the 55 of us.
2 Q. How many persons in Hilmo Celo's house had weapons?
3 A. I'm not aware of that. I practically didn't know the people who
4 were there. I only knew that relative of mine, that brother-in-law of
5 mine who had broken his leg. I came there to see whether they had gone
6 somewhere. I don't know.
7 Q. Did you see anybody who was in that house with weapons?
8 A. No, I did not.
9 Q. While you were being interrogated in the KP Dom, did the
10 interrogator who was interrogating you ask you who you got weapons from?
11 A. The interrogator did ask me whether I had any weapons. He asked
12 me, "Did you have any weapons?" And I said, "No, I did not."
13 Q. Sir, in your statement to the State Security Station in
14 Gorazde that you gave in 1994, did you say that the investigator in the
15 KP Dom asked you whether you had any weapons, who you met with, and who
16 gave you weapons?
17 A. When I came to Zoran Vladicic to make a statement, he asked me,
18 "Do you have any weapons?" And I said, "No, I don't." And he said, "Do
19 you have any weapons?" And I said, "No, I don't," because I didn't have
21 Q. I asked you whether you made this statement to the State Security
22 Station. I didn't ask you about what you stated to Inspector Vladicic.
23 A. I'm not aware of that. I never had any weapons. Whether I gave
24 this statement or not, I did not give -- I did not have any weapons. And
25 when I gave Zoran that statement, that's what I said, and the other one
1 didn't ask me about that.
2 Q. Sir, I shall now read out to you from document ID 253, page 2,
3 that is the statement that you gave to the state security sector. It's
4 just one sentence, actually. Actually, two sentences: "I met
5 Mehmed Sofradzija from there from Cvilin, whom they already interrogated
6 and they beat him there with a truncheon. They asked me whether I had any
7 weapons, who I was meeting with, and who gave me weapons."
8 Is that your statement?
9 A. As for Meho Sofradzija, I can remember. I heard that they took
10 him there, that they asked him, that he was shouting, "No, I don't have
11 any. No. No." I don't know what happened then. I didn't have any
12 weapons of my own ever. I -- in that statement ...
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since I cannot get a
14 direct answer to this question from the witness, I would like to propose
15 that my learned friends from the Prosecution perhaps admit that in the
16 statement that was signed by this witness and that was given to the SDB in
17 Gorazde, that it is mentioned that he was asked whether he had any
18 weapons, who he met with, and who gave him weapons.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Q. Sir, did you say to the investigator of the OTP that from a
24 person who worked in the kitchen you found out that there were 513
25 detainees in the KP Dom because he had prepared 513 slices of bread for
2 A. I know that. The man who worked over there when the other man
3 asked him to come there to the machine to slice 513 slices of bread, he
4 said, "When you -- when you slice 580 slices of bread, that will be enough
5 for the detainees."
6 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, I remind you to watch the screen in front of
7 you, wait for the typing on it to stop before you answer any question.
8 You have been doing quite well, but that last answer came in well before
9 the typing had finished and well before the interpretation had finished.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Sir, in the statement you gave to the representative of the
12 OTP in 1996, did you say that these were 513 slices of bread?
13 A. Oh, well, an exception. Everything did not always go in the same
14 direction. Sometimes people would be taken out and then there would be a
15 shortage. Sometimes no one was brought in individually. So that was the
16 number. Perhaps, in July, half of these people weren't there.
17 Q. I'm asking you whether you stated this to the investigator of
18 the OTP, that there were 513 detainees because a detainee who worked in
19 the kitchen told you that he had to prepare 513 slices of bread.
20 A. Yes, I did say that. Yes, I did say that. This man who worked
21 there, he said, when I got back to the room, that that boss over there,
22 the man who ran the kitchen, told him to cut up a certain amount of bread
23 and how sometimes they brought people in, sometimes they took them out, so
24 he did not always know the exact number. It wasn't always the same.
25 Q. Sir, did you state to the investigator that soldiers ate in
1 the kitchen of the KP Dom?
2 JUDGE HUNT: Please, sir, will you wait until the typing finishes
3 before you start your answer.
4 A. The soldiers who were with us in the kitchen during the first
5 month, they gave us the little bit we had to eat. They were with us
6 perhaps a month and then those soldiers left somewhere. And then at the
7 mess, we had those civilians, the civilian staff who were at the KP Dom.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. The event that you described to us when that soldier hit you,
10 did that happen while the soldiers were still at the KP Dom?
11 A. Yes. A soldier did hit me. This man hit me and I don't know even
12 know who he is. When we came there during the first week, they were
13 running about the rooms, and they were really upset, and one of them hit
14 me. I don't even know who he is or what he is. At that moment, that was
15 all. This was the month of April, the beginning, when we just came to the
16 KP Dom.
17 Q. I just asked you whether that was in the period that you
18 mentioned, that is to say, that in the KP Dom, the soldiers were there in
19 the KP Dom before they left?
20 A. There were soldiers there. Well, to tell you the truth, at that
21 moment, I mean I wasn't looking around what was there. When we came to
22 the room, the soldiers were doing everything that was supposed to be
23 done; they were taking our details and taking statements from us and food
24 and all that.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. During your examination-in-chief, you said
1 that during your stay at the KP Dom, you were hit by Guard Burilo and that
2 you were hit once by a soldier. In the statement that you gave to the
3 public security station in Trnovo, on the 7th of February, 1993, you
4 stated that, during your stay at the KP Dom, nobody beat you personally.
5 Is that correct?
6 A. I always said - I said yesterday here as well - I was hit less in
7 Foca. I was only hit by Miro Burilo, when I went to make a statement,
8 perhaps after 55 or 60 days. And then when I came back from there, as I
9 came by, he hit me once. In April, a soldier did when they were there
10 with us, when they were feeding us. I was not hit any more than that at
11 the KP Dom. I was hit more badly in Kalinovik.
12 Q. I'm going to read this statement to you, part of your statement
13 given to the public security station, that is, ID 252, the sixth paragraph
14 on the first page: "During my stay at the KP Dom in Foca, I personally
15 was not beaten by anyone, but I was an eyewitness to other people being
16 taken away."
17 A. That's the way it was, for sure. I received only two blows, and
18 from my room and from the room next door, people were taken out. As for
19 these blows of mine, it is certain that I received these two blows in
20 Foca, and I know that this man who was in the bed next to me, all of a
21 sudden, he was no longer there and he never came back.
22 Q. We're not talking about people who were being taken out now.
23 We're talking about the blows you received.
24 Why you did you not say at the Public Security Station that you
25 were hit by Burilo and by the soldier, as you said during your
2 A. Well, at that moment, I don't know. I was maybe so terrified that
3 it's not that I gave this statement, but finally, every time this
4 happened -- well, that's what happened.
5 Q. You mentioned the blow that you received from the soldier. Tell
6 me, was this an ordinary blow or did it have any special impact or
8 A. It was just an ordinary blow. He hit me hard, I fell, and the man
9 who was walking behind me said, "Okay. Let's get up and let's go to the
10 room," and he put me into the room.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. Thank you too.
13 Q. Sir, you mentioned in your statement to the representative of
14 the OTP, in connection with the persons who were taken out, the reasons
15 why they were taken out. Did you say that persons who had weapons were
16 taken out, persons who were members of the SDA, who had some trouble with
17 their neighbours and friends?
18 A. I don't know whether they did have weapons or whether they did not
19 have weapons, but that's the way it went, according to the list. If a
20 list was brought in and then they say, "You went there" -- I don't know
21 about these things. I can't tell you who had weapons or who did not have
22 weapons. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.
23 Q. Did you make this kind of statement to the investigator of the
25 A. I do not recall.
1 Q. I'm going to read part of your statement out to you, that is, ID
2 251A, in the B/C/S language, statement given to the OTP. That is page 3,
3 paragraph 2: "Later, we found out what the criteria were. We discussed
4 this question and came the conclusion that the prisoners who were singled
5 out were those who had weapons, who were members of the SDA, had sons or
6 had personally -- or had previously quarreled with their Serb
8 A. I'm not aware of that. I did not have this. I was not interested
9 in this. I was not interested in other people. I had my own problem; how
10 to survive. I did not owe anyone a thing. Whether he did have it,
11 whether he did not have it, I didn't ask him. Papers were brought in
12 the evening. Through the roll-call, these people were taken out. What he
13 had and what he didn't have, I don't know.
14 Q. Sir, you did not give such a statement to the investigator of
15 the OTP on the 20th of June, 1996?
16 A. Maybe I did give this statement, but I don't know whether people
17 had weapons or did not have weapons. I did not know about that.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Again, sir, I remind you, please wait until the
19 typing has finished before you start your answer. It's going to make it
20 very difficult for us all unless you do that. We won't get your
21 evidence. We won't hear your answers because you are running over the
23 Yes, Mr. Vasic.
24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 I would kindly ask my learned friends of the Prosecution if they
1 could state their views as to whether the witness mentioned in his
2 statement to the investigator of the OTP, "We discussed this issue and
3 came to the conclusion that the detainees who were singled out were those
4 who possessed weapons, were SDA members, had sons, or had had arguments
5 with Serb neighbours previously."
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's in there.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, you said that Burilo hit you. Did he hit you in the
10 hallway that is entered when one enters the administration building from
11 the compound?
12 A. He hit me at the gate where people went to Zoran Vladicic to give
13 statements. It was the first floor. That's where statements were given.
14 And he was at the gate. And I cannot distinguish between this. I don't
15 know. I am not aware of this, this left or right gate, whatever. At any
16 rate, it was at the gate where Predo the policeman took me. Burilo the
17 policeman was at that gate, and he shouted at me and said, "Hands up." I
18 put my hands up. He searched me. He didn't find anything. He hit me.
19 The other one got me up and said, "Come on. Nothing's going to happen to
20 you." Then I went up there to Zoran Vladicic. And in all my fear, how
21 could I know what was left, what was right, what went zigzag, where there
22 were curves.
23 Q. Did he hit you when you had already entered the building?
24 A. I had not already entered the building. I don't think I had
25 entered the building where Zoran Vladicic was, where we were giving
1 statements up there. It was the gate. Everybody knows for sure where the
2 gate was, where we passed from the rooms and when we passed the gate, and
3 then he hit me there.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, if you will not comply with our
5 request, we will just give up and disregard the whole of your evidence.
6 You must wait for that typing to finish before you answer a question. If
7 you don't do it, we are going to lose your answers, and if we don't hear
8 your answers, we will have to disregard the whole of your evidence.
9 Now, if you want us to consider what you're saying, please do what
10 we ask.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, during the examination-in-chief, you talked to us about
13 persons who were taken out. After persons were taken out, did you hear
15 A. I did not understand this answer [as interpreted].
16 Q. After persons were taken out of their rooms in the evening hours,
17 as you have put it, did you hear some gunshots?
18 A. A gunshot was heard later, around 10.00 or 11.00, further off.
19 What this gunshot was, I don't know. Maybe it was a celebration. Maybe
20 this man was getting married or something. It was a gunshot, two or three
21 bursts of gunfire, out there in that direction further off.
22 Q. Were these bursts of gunfire from an automatic rifle?
23 A. I am not familiar with these weapons. It was four or five bursts
24 of gunfire in a row or perhaps a gunshot from out there. I don't know who
25 was shooting or why he was shooting. Was it some kind of celebration?
1 Was it whatever? But that's the way it was.
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Yesterday, we dealt with the list that you
3 had made, the list of persons who were taken out of the KP Dom in the
4 evening. Yesterday, you showed us the original of this list.
5 Can you tell me whether you wrote that original, that piece of
6 paper, in Trnovo in 1992, and did you take it from Trnovo? Is that that
8 A. That copy I did not take from Trnovo because I made it after
9 Trnovo, when I already got out to freedom. I thought that I would be
10 asked for this somewhere. Since I do not have a good memory, I should
11 write down the names of these persons, these colleagues who I was with so
12 that people would know where they are and perhaps sometime I could meet up
13 with them.
14 Q. So this paper which you showed us yesterday with a list of names
15 of persons who had been taken out was drawn up by you later, not in Trnovo
16 in 1992? Yes, please go ahead.
17 A. What I know is that I had made a list at the KP Dom. It was
18 thrown out. But when I was leaving Trnovo, I thought I was going to a
19 real exchange and then I came back later. I made another list to refresh
20 my memory because I'm an old man. I cannot think well. I don't know
21 whether any of these people survived, whether I would be able to meet with
22 them and talk to them.
23 Q. You said this list you showed us yesterday was made after you made
24 statements. Do you mean the statement which you made to the investigator
25 of the Office of the Prosecutor?
1 A. I said if I ever get that list which I had made, I'll point out
2 those people. If I cannot tell their names off-the-cuff, I can read them
3 from a list. If I ever get before a court of law, I could read those
4 names from a list.
5 Q. I understand that, sir, but I'm asking whether you made it after
6 you made your statement to the investigator of the Office of the
8 A. I had the list then, at the Office of the Prosecutor, but that was
9 after I came back from Trnovo to Gorazde.
10 Q. Did you show this list to the investigator of the OTP?
11 A. I didn't understand the question.
12 Q. The list that we are discussing, did you show it to the
13 investigator of the OTP on the 20th of June, 1996?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Did you talk to the investigator about the persons who had been
16 taken out of the KP Dom in the evening?
17 A. I can't remember.
18 Q. You cannot remember whether you had talked to the investigator of
19 the OTP about these persons?
20 A. The persons I named are on the list, and if you asked me to tell
21 their names by heart, perhaps I couldn't name half of them. I know the
22 people who were in my room.
23 Q. You have just told us that you did not give this list to the
24 investigator of the OTP; is that correct?
25 A. Those are things I can understand only with great difficulty, very
2 Q. Did you give this list to the Office of the Prosecutor for the
3 first time when you came here to testify in The Hague?
4 A. I brought this list here. I brought it here when I came for the
5 first time to testify. That's the list I have with me now. I brought it,
7 Q. Why didn't you then show this list to the investigator of the OTP
8 when you talked to him in 1996? Did you have it at the time?
9 A. I don't think I needed it then. Why would I give it?
10 Q. Why did you think you didn't need it then?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Do you think you didn't need it because you could remember the
13 names then?
14 A. I reckoned that I could remember two or three names. Perhaps some
15 would be missing, so I wasn't using -- and if he asks me, I talked about
16 everyone, and I carried that list in order to be able to mention
18 Q. In the statement that you gave to the investigator of the OTP on
19 the 20th of June, 1996, on page 3, did you say that you no longer remember
20 all of the names when you were speaking about persons who had been taken
21 out of the KP Dom in the evening hours?
22 A. I am not aware of where I gave a statement on the 20th of June,
23 was it in 1992 or 1993.
24 Q. No, sir, it was the 20th of June, 1996, and you were giving a
25 statement to an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor. I will read
1 out to you on page 3, that is document ID 251/A, the B/C/S version, just
2 one sentence: "Ten detainees from my room disappeared in the described
3 manner. I have given their names to the police during my previous
4 statements. Today I do not recall all the names any more."
5 Did you state this?
6 A. I don't remember about that.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask my learned friends from
8 the Prosecution to confirm that this is what the witness had stated to the
9 investigator of the OTP on the 20th of June, 1996.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I confirm that.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. Are we going to get to any of these that
12 are really very relevant, Mr. Vasic? This is very tedious stuff. It
13 really has very little, if any, bearing on the witness's credit.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour, but this
15 concerns persons about whom the witness said that had disappeared and were
16 taken out of the KP Dom, and we are seeing this list for the first time.
17 So I have to inquire when and under which circumstances it was made and if
18 he had used it before.
19 JUDGE HUNT: The subject matter is important, but the
20 cross-examination, if I may say so, is not helping us.
21 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Sir, you said that from this list, some persons were with you in
23 the same room and others weren't. Which room were you in when these
24 people were taken out?
25 A. I was in Room 11 when these people were taken away. That is the
1 room above the central warehouse at the KP Dom.
2 Q. Thank you. Will you please tell me, which room were you in when
3 Juso Dzamilija was taken to the isolation cell, as you said yesterday in
4 your examination-in-chief.
5 A. I was also in Room 11.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. Tell me, please, in which room was Soro Seval
7 before he was taken out.
8 A. Soro Seval was in a room. We had two rooms upstairs, two where I
9 was. In that building where I was, he was there with me. I cannot
10 remember the room, whether it was 14 or 16. In any case, we were released
11 from those rooms for lunch, and we went together in single file, and he
12 was taken away by those soldiers. That's 100 per cent sure.
13 Q. You said he was taken away, that's 100 per cent sure. Did you
14 see that?
15 A. I saw when he disappeared, and he had been to give a statement two
16 or three times, and he would come back and, suddenly, he had disappeared.
17 When we were going out for lunch, the people from my room told me Soro
18 Seval was taken away, he's nowhere to be seen, also in the evening hours.
19 Q. So you didn't see him being taken away. You heard from people
20 from his room that he had been taken away.
21 A. Certainly I didn't see him being taken away, but I'm sure I heard
22 that he had been taken away, and he really was taken away in the evening,
23 together with others.
24 Q. Did you see Munib Veiz being taken away?
25 A. Munib Veiz, his room was next door to mine. I saw him too. He
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was taken out two or three times. The man came back, he had bruises on
2 his face. For a while, we would bring him some soup, some bread, because
3 he wasn't able to go anywhere for a while. And suddenly, in the same
4 period, he left on the same way, in the evening.
5 Q. Did you see him that evening when he was taken out for the last
7 A. I saw him in the evening, that evening.
8 Q. You said he was in a room next door. Is that Room 12?
9 A. The number of the room was probably 12, but whether it was 13 or
10 14 -- in that area, there were those four rooms. Believe it or not, I
11 wasn't looking at those numbers so much. I wasn't interested. All I was
12 interested in was how I would survive, whether I would get out of there.
13 Q. Was his room then located on the same level as yours?
14 A. It was on the same level as my room. There were four rooms
15 there. I don't know if I could place them exactly now; 14, 11, 12, 13.
16 That was in the same building.
17 Q. Where was Munib Veiz when you saw him that evening when he was
18 taken away for the last time?
19 A. He was in the room.
20 Q. And where did you see him?
21 A. I saw him when the roll-call was done, when we were taken out from
22 all the four rooms for the roll-call, and then after the roll-call, they
23 would always leave time for two or three people from a list to be called
24 out to give a statement. That's when I saw him, going to give a
1 Q. You talked about Meho Sofradzija. Which room was he in?
2 A. He was in one of those four rooms; not in mine though. Not in
3 Room 11. I didn't go into other rooms, but I know he was one of the four
4 rooms because, when we were being let out for lunch or breakfast, he was
5 in the same line, in the same file with us.
6 Q. Did you see him when he was taken out or did you just conclude
7 that he had been taken out when you failed to see him in the line?
8 A. I suddenly noticed that he was not in the line. I asked the
9 people who were together with him, and they said, "Meho was taken out last
10 night." Once I heard a story being told about him. Allegedly somebody
11 yelled at him, somebody wanted him to say something. He wouldn't. He was
12 denying, the other person cursed his mother, and he was saying, "I don't
13 have any. I didn't." That's what I heard about him when he had gone
15 Q. Did you see somebody hitting him?
16 A. Once he was taken out in broad daylight to give a statement. That
17 was in the middle of the day when somebody was accusing him of something
18 and yelling at him, and he just screamed, "I swear by my mother I didn't
19 do it. I don't have any." That's what he was replying. That was in
20 broad daylight, in the middle of the day when he was taken out.
21 Q. And you say you heard this?
22 A. Yes, I'm certain I heard this, when somebody was accusing him of
23 something and asking him questions, and he was saying, "I swear by my
24 mother, no," and the other person was cursing his mother. That's what I
25 heard, certainly.
1 Q. Why didn't you mention that you had heard Sofradzija crying for
2 help and screaming in any of your previous statements? Is it something
3 that you have just remembered having heard?
4 A. Whether I mentioned this in my statement or not, I can only
5 guarantee 100 per cent that I heard him one day, when they called him out
6 to give a statement, I heard him being cursed. This was very loud. This
7 was all spoken in a very loud voice. Was it perhaps in the staff room up
8 there or maybe in the room for visits for the previous KP Dom inmates, but
9 in any case, it was somewhere closer to the gate. That's where the voices
10 came from.
11 Q. In your statement which you gave to the State Security Centre in
12 Gorazde on the 29th of June, 1994 -- 29th of July, 1994, you said -- you
13 didn't say that you heard Meho Sofradzija but that you had just heard
14 about him being taken out, but you didn't say it was in the room for
16 A. I don't know whether it came back to me just now, but I know that
17 somebody was accusing him of something, and I had heard him begging,
18 "Please don't. I didn't. I haven't."
19 Q. Can you tell us what is the truth and what isn't? Can you tell us
21 A. I really don't know what to tell you now. I heard him, 100 per
22 cent sure, when he was being accused, when he was taken away, but whether
23 when I was giving this statement three or four years ago, I cannot
24 remember. I don't believe anyone could remember.
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, can you please tell us when these people
1 were taken away in the evening hours, the people that are on the list you
2 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor? I'll go one by one. Nail Hodzic,
3 when he was taken away? What day?
4 A. Specifically, I cannot give you a date. The time period was a
5 month or two months long. That's the time frame. Sometimes one or two
6 persons would be taken away at the same time, or two or three in a group,
7 and that lasted for about a month or two.
8 Q. Was he in your room?
9 A. Nail Hodzic was in my room.
10 Q. And you don't know when exactly he was taken out?
11 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you the date because I didn't write, I
12 didn't dare write anything. I didn't even know what to write. In any
13 case, I cannot give you the date, but he was taken in one of those
15 Q. Thank you, sir. In what sequence were people taken out, the ones
16 from your list? Can you tell us at least which ones were taken before
18 A. About the sequence, I couldn't -- Kemo Dzelilovic, I think he was
19 one of the first to be taken out. Vahida Dzemo then, and then, later,
20 Alija Altoka was taken out, but which one was taken before another, to a
21 day or two, I really didn't make any notes and I couldn't remember.
22 Q. Sir, could you tell us: Why did you fail to mention the name of
23 Alija Altoka in the statements you gave to the Public Security Station in
24 Trnovo and the State Security Centre in Gorazde?
25 A. Maybe I left the man out. Maybe there are more persons like him
1 whom I left out and I didn't include them in this book here. There are
2 more people. With more witnesses you might find out about them. Maybe I
3 left him out. Maybe I had forgotten.
4 Q. Did you fail to mention Seval Soro for the same reason?
5 A. Seval Soro was also in those rooms. He was an electrician whom I
6 knew before the war. He did some work at my place once, and he was taken
8 Q. I'm asking you why you failed to mention that in your statements
9 given to the Public Security Station and the State Security Centre in 1992
10 and 1993.
11 A. Perhaps I just forgot about that. I had forgotten about this man
12 at the moment. Maybe I had forgotten the name, and I didn't know how to
13 mention him.
14 Q. The same with Meho Sofradzija. You failed to mention him to the
15 State Security Centre and the Public Security Station. Is it for the same
16 reason you didn't say that he was taken away?
17 A. He was taken away --
18 JUDGE HUNT: Haven't you spent enough time on this man? Really,
19 you've been through the whole of his evidence about him. Then you
20 asked a question, which is the truth, being the evidence he's given
21 or his failure to refer to it in his statement. How long do we have to go
22 on with this? The fact that somebody doesn't put it in his statement is
23 capable of going to the witness's credit, but you're getting the same
24 explanation every time. Now, we either accept that explanation or we
25 don't, but it is not helping us by spending an inordinate, excessive
1 amount of time on these fine details of what he has or has not put in
2 statements. Once he's given that explanation, we either accept it or
3 reject it.
4 Now, can we get on with this, please.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I was only
6 asking about persons whom he did mention in some other context, speaking
7 about other events, and I was curious why he had failed to mention them
8 before, but I think we've clarified this now, and I'll move on.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You said in your examination-in-chief that you saw when Juso
12 Dzamilija was taken to an isolation cell. Did you, from your Room 11
13 where you said you were at the time, able to see the isolation cells in
14 the prisoners' quarters?
15 A. We were able to see the isolation cells. They -- sorry. We
16 weren't able to see all of them. They were not all of them in that part
17 of the building, but I was able to see the man when he was being carried
18 out. Whether he had committed suicide, whether he had died a natural
19 death, whether he was taken back from the isolation cell unconscious --
20 maybe he was just unconscious. I don't know that. I just know the man
21 himself because we had worked in the same company.
22 Q. Tell me, please, when did you see Juso Dzamilija when he was being
23 taken into the isolation cell?
24 A. I saw him when he was being taken out of the isolation cell and
25 when he was being brought into the isolation cell, because I knew the man
2 Q. I'm asking where did you see him. Where was he located when you
3 saw him?
4 A. When I saw him, he was -- I wasn't able to see him in the
5 isolation cell. I was able to see him when he was being carried out and
6 when he was being brought in, but inside the cell I wasn't able to see
8 Q. I'm not claiming, sir, that you saw him in the isolation cell.
9 I'm just asking where you saw him. Can you answer or not? Do you
10 remember where you saw him?
11 A. For God's sake, I saw him when he was brought to the isolation
12 cell and when he was being carried out. What the reason was, what was
13 wrong with him, whether he had died or whether he had done something to
14 himself ...
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I
16 would like to show the witness 56/1. That's floor plan. Could it please
17 be placed on the ELMO.
18 JUDGE HUNT: At the moment, we're getting the recorded programme
19 on the video evidence channel. It's right now. Thank you.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sir, this is a floor plan, a floor plan of the KP Dom. Can you
22 show us where Room 11 was, where you were?
23 A. By God, I cannot. I only know when you give me that picture, that
24 picture, the Room 11 where I was. That's where I can see it properly,
25 because it was above the central warehouse. I cannot recognise those
1 curves and the zigzags and whatever, I mean the gate.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Can you tell us whether these isolation
3 cells were in the detainee buildings that you were talking about, where
4 Juso Dzamilija was?
5 A. These isolation cells were not together with us, but there were
6 isolation cells nearby, near the rooms where we had been. They could be
7 seen from those little windows like in the toilets.
8 Q. Can you show us where these isolation cells were where Juso
9 Dzamalija was detained? Can you show it on this floor plan?
10 A. I cannot really orient myself. I don't know whether you
11 understand what I'm telling you. This picture -- I mean, I can only use
12 the picture.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please give me the
14 floor plan back, because the witness cannot state his views in view of
15 this plan.
16 Q. Sir, was Juso Dzamalija taken to the isolation cell in the
17 administration building or in the building for detainees?
18 A. He was not taken to the detainee building. In this building where
19 we detainees were, that's not where he was taken. That's a bit further
20 away, these isolation cells. But from the little windows, or if you went
21 to the toilet, you could see it, things like that.
22 Q. Can you tell us where this -- where this isolation cell was? Was
23 it in the administration building?
24 A. I really don't know. By God, I don't. I mean, now on this
25 picture here, I can't see anything, nothing. I really cannot make heads
1 or tails out of this.
2 Q. Sir, during your examination-in-chief, you talked about an
3 assembly room, about a staff room. Where was this assembly room, on which
4 floor, where detainees were taken to?
5 A. The assembly room was on the first floor, and on the second floor,
6 statements were made at Zoran Vladicic's, up there. And the assembly room
7 was, I think, here, in this direction. And then you enter from here, and
8 then from -- I mean, upstairs was the first floor where statements were
9 given to Zoran Vladicic. That's the way I see things.
10 I really wanted to see things then, but then I would rather not
11 see anything because I didn't dare look. So I cannot remember now whether
12 this was on the left-hand side and that was on the right-hand side. And
13 now what I'm telling you about these people, that is 100 per cent sure.
14 If you don't get information from me only, you will get information from
15 hundreds of people.
16 Q. Sir, was this assembly room opposite your Room 11, in that wing of
17 the administration building?
18 A. My Room 11 was like this, and then we went out like this, and then
19 this was the compound here, and then the assembly room was here, in this
20 direction, that side. Exit, entrance, assembly room. That's what I heard
21 it was called. That's when prisoners, before, received visitors. That's
22 where they received them. Then I know that, from there, I went upstairs
23 on the first floor, that I did not walk too much when I went to make a
25 Q. From the room -- from the windows of Room 11, can you see the
1 windows of this assembly room?
2 A. You could see them. You could see them, because the assembly room
3 and where you went upstairs to give statements, all of that was sort of in
4 the direction of my room, and the warehouse was down here, and then you
5 could see over there, in that direction, the assembly room.
6 Q. Thank you. Sir, can you tell us which school, which elementary
7 school your daughter went to?
8 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I cannot say. She just told me,
9 "Milorad Krnojelac gave me subjects at school."
10 Q. Are you trying to say that you don't know which school your
11 daughter went to?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Thank you. Is this the first time that you mentioned this
14 incident, before this Court, when your daughter came to visit you and when
15 she talked to a person who you said that Risto Ivanovic had said was the
16 warden? Did you tell anyone else about this, before you were heard here
17 before this Honourable Court?
18 A. When my daughter came to visit me, she came with my wife. A Serb
19 neighbour brought them by car. Where they met, whether it was at the
20 entrance or whether it was at the assembly room, she came to me, crying.
21 I came to that assembly room. I said, "Why are you crying, dear?" And
22 she said such-and-such a thing, and "The warden won't let me come in. And
23 then Risto Ivanovic put his hand on my shoulder. He said, come on, the
24 warden is just joking," and this man knew me and my daughter.
25 Q. Sir, we have already heard the contents of the conversation you
1 had with your daughter, but I asked you about something else. This
2 has not been mentioned in any one of your other statements. Is this the
3 first time that you've mentioned this, before this Honourable Court?
4 A. When I left, perhaps I did not say this in any one of my
5 statements, but then this addition, what my daughter saw and that she went
6 to school, that is true, 100 per cent.
7 Q. You remember just now that your daughter said that to you?
8 A. The question is not very clear.
9 Q. What reminded you now that your daughter told you that?
10 A. What reminded me was that what I heard from my daughter is 100 per
11 cent true. If my daughter had lied -- I mean, she confirmed that. Three
12 hundred, 400 detainees who survive, if you brought all of them here, who
13 was and who was not the warden, until when, whether he was replaced, when;
14 I don't know. She said, "He taught me a subject at school." And believe
15 me, I'm not very good at this.
16 Q. Sir, can you tell us where your daughter went to school, in which
17 neighbourhood, in which part of town?
18 A. It was Gornje Polje. Somewhere in Gornje Polje.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, this witness, as I recall, said he had
21 never seen anything to do with your client at the KP Dom. Anything else
22 he has said is by way of hearsay only. We have other evidence which is
23 far more important than his hearsay, and all you are attacking here is the
24 accuracy of his hearsay.
25 Does it really matter?
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] In the view of the Defence, this is
2 important for the credibility of this witness because he is mentioning
3 this incident related to his daughter for the first time now. However, we
4 have concluded this particular matter as well, thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Before you go on through any more, may I remind you
6 that he might have said that he said good morning to Mr. Todovic outside
7 the door on the day after he first arrived there, and he didn't put that
8 in his statement. Those sorts of omissions are really of no assistance in
9 judging what his credit is. Now, this is so remote from the issues in
10 this case that it is simply not helping us. You're getting very
11 unresponsive answers to your questions, which is mainly merely repeating
12 what he said in his evidence-in-chief, and I think there has to be a limit
13 to this.
14 It's unfortunate that there's no quality control exercised in the
15 witnesses who are brought here, but this witness, on his hearsay of this
16 particular matter, is off very little weight.
17 Now, can we get on to something which is important in the case, if
18 there is something you want to ask him questions about.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Actually, I
20 have only one more question that is related to persons who were taken out
21 to pick fruit, as the witness had put it during the examination-in-chief.
22 Q. Do you know when these persons were taken out to pick fruit?
23 A. These persons were taken out to pick fruit in two groups; one in
24 August, the other in September. If I remember well, one group was taken
25 out on the 29th of August, 1992.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has no
3 further questions.
4 A. Thank you, too.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any re-examination?
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir. Your evidence is now concluded.
8 Thank you for coming here to give it. You may now leave.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the Honourable
10 Court, I did not say this in any statement about the most terrible things
11 that happened to me in Kalinovik. I had to -- I had to write a song or I
12 would be beaten up beyond recognition. If that is all right with you --
13 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, this trial has nothing to do with what happened
14 in Kalinovik. I believe there are other trials where other people are
15 being charged in relation to that, and it may be that you will be called
16 as a witness in that case. But we are not concerned with it. I am sorry
17 that we cannot hear you about it, but it would be quite wrong of us to do
18 so. That is material which will be important in any charge against people
19 relating to the detention of Muslims in that area. Now, sir, you may
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, your next witness is 210,
24 and that's the one we're having next Monday?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I suppose we deserve a break after this. I
2 will see you at 9.30 on Monday.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.47 a.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of April,
5 2001, at 9.30 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.