1 Tuesday, 3
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.
6 [The accused entered court]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: MUHAMED LISICA [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Lisica. Can you hear me, Mr. Lisica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Yesterday you started to describe what happened after Mr. Zekovic
17 had escaped, and you mentioned that at some point in time you were locked
18 into an isolation cell. Where was this isolation cell?
19 A. That isolation cell was right behind the reception area.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
21 show the witness Exhibit 6/1.
22 Q. Could you please point out this isolation cell to us.
23 A. It's this one where I'm pointing now with the pointer. Provided
24 that this is the reception office, the reception desk, then it could be
25 this. If this is the reception desk, then it's right behind.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the fifth room
2 counting from the left side of the building, the room next to the
3 reception office.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.
6 Q. Were you alone in this isolation cell?
7 A. When I arrived there, when I was taken there, I found Berberkic or
8 Berberovic. He was a tinsmith. He used to work with me.
9 Q. Was he in the group that was beaten in the hall that you described
11 A. That was the entire staff of the metalwork shop, and he was with
12 us. There was a Berberkic who had been brought to that room. That's
13 where I found him. It was a room with metal rings in it. It was taken
14 over from the former KP Dom. It existed even before the KP Dom, while it
15 was still a prison. That was their isolation cell, I suppose.
16 Q. And did you see any injuries on Mr. Berberkic or Berberovic? Was
17 he also beaten up?
18 A. There was a bed there, and he was lying there moaning. He was
19 bent over. He moaned and cried.
20 Q. How long did you stay in this isolation cell?
21 A. Every 15 minutes or so they would take me to the reception office,
22 then take me back. Then they took us all up there to that building where
23 the isolation cells are. When you enter the KP Dom on the right-hand
24 side where the isolation cells are, I believe there are 10 or 12
25 isolation cells up there, and they took us to that corridor, that hallway.
1 Some people were locked up in isolation cells, and I was told by Savo
2 Todovic to lie down on the floor, and I did. He took his gun and pointed
3 it against the back of my head, and he said -- since he knew my father, I
4 have to say it the way he said it: "God damn your father Hasan. Tell me
5 where Berberkic [as interpreted] is." Then he made me get up and he took
6 me back to the isolation cell, where I found again this Berberkic. And
7 during the night I was taken out every hour or so. But all the interviews
8 I had were with Savo Todovic and Boro Ivanovic. Shall I continue?
9 Q. Wait a second. Just to clarify, maybe it's a mistake in the
10 translation, maybe you misspoke. You said Todovic told you, "Tell me
11 where Berberkic is." You probably meant Zekovic, right?
12 A. Yes, yes. I had meant Zeka. Maybe I misspoke.
13 Q. Yes. While you were -- did you spend the entire night? Except
14 for being taken out so often from the cell, did you spend one night in
15 this isolation cell in the administration building?
16 A. It was sometime before dawn, perhaps around 3.00 a.m. I was taken
17 out for half an hour, then returned. And then the same thing repeated
18 itself several times. And then for a while it was quiet, they didn't
19 call me out any more, and when it dawned. In that isolation cell there is
20 a barred window, a small window through which you can have a view of the
21 Drina. I was watching some people moving around there, gathering. I knew
22 some of them; some I didn't know. And then a guard came, shouting,
23 "Warden, warden, we've caught Zeka." And I was glad in a way. Somebody
24 then fired a shot or, rather, two shots. I don't know who that was. And
25 after about a couple of hours, they took me out into the hallway, that is
1 the censorship hallway, and that's where they started to beat me. And
2 they wanted me to tell them the whole story, whether I had known that Zeka
3 was going to run away and how he did it, et cetera, and they wanted me to
4 tell the truth; otherwise, they would kill me.
5 So I repeated the same story. They hit me on the head with their
6 fists a little. Once they hit me and I hit this metal detector, this
7 thing you pass through when entering. And then after that, they took me
8 upstairs to an isolation cell.
9 Q. You said that you looked out when you heard the shout, "Warden,
10 warden, we found Zekovic." Did you actually see Mr. Krnojelac on that
12 A. I didn't see Krnojelac. I saw other people. But at that moment I
13 was watching through the window when one of them - I don't know who that
14 was - when someone said, "Warden, warden," I think those were the words,
15 "we've caught Zeka." And that's when I heard the shots. I assumed it
16 must be Krnojelac who fired the shots, although I don't know, actually,
17 because when you're looking through that window, you cannot see much. You
18 can see -- you have a view at an angle of 45 degrees on each side. I
19 didn't see much, really.
20 Q. And you said that you were beaten after that on that morning. Who
21 beat you?
22 A. One of them was Pljevaljcic, and I know even the other man. I
23 know his face, but I cannot recall his name right now. And while they
24 were beating me, at that moment another one, Prodanovic, was sitting on a
25 chair, across, and he said, "That's enough. Stop." That's about what he
1 said. I don't remember the exact words. But they did stop. I had a scar
2 here until recently.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: When the witness said that, he was pointing
4 at the left side of his face.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Vlatko Pljevaljcic, he is number
7 35 on the list P3.
8 Q. And this other person that you said you remember his face, was he
9 also a guard?
10 A. Yes, he was a guard.
11 Q. And you said that you were then taken to the isolation cell
12 upstairs. Which cell do you mean? Do you mean in the prisoners' quarters
13 or in the administration building?
14 A. I didn't say upstairs. I said "up there," I think, but I'd like
15 to correct myself anyway. It was on the inside of the KP Dom. They took
16 me inside the building. When you're entering the KP Dom and when you go
17 to the building on the right-hand side, that's the only place, actually,
18 where there are isolation cells, and they were there from before.
19 Q. Yes. Thank you. And how long did you stay in the isolation cell
20 after Mr. Zekovic was caught?
21 A. Well, I'll try to recount this briefly, if I can. Two hours later
22 they took me outside again, and I went through an interrogation. There
23 were four or five people there. I knew only one of them who had worked in
24 Ozren company with me before, Vojo Starovic, and I knew the others' faces,
25 but I didn't know their names. They interrogated me as to how come I have
1 cigarettes, what kind of information I know -- I have, and then they took
2 me back to the isolation cell. And perhaps another two or three hours
3 later, a meeting was held. I don't even know whether it's proper to call
4 it a meeting. All of us inmates were taken out into the yard. Rasevic
5 came, Savo Todovic, several guards, and Mr. Krnojelac.
6 To tell you the truth, I was in the second row. I don't know what
7 I was thinking then. I was thinking about other things. I don't remember
8 much. Somebody was giving a speech, I don't know who it was, but they
9 said, "Here, we've caught Zeka. Of course we had to catch him. It's
10 good that we've caught him," et cetera, et cetera. All I know is that
11 Rasevic and Savo Todovic were there.
12 Q. You mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was also there. How do you know
14 A. I think I saw him, because they were standing there.
15 Q. You mentioned that actually all members of the metalwork shop were
16 mistreated related to Mr. Zekovic's escape. What about other people? If
17 you look at the sheet in front of you, there is the person listed as
18 number 73. Was he involved in this as well?
19 A. The person under number 73 was designated by somebody to be
20 something like the monitor of the room where we were. I didn't see it,
21 but that same person told me, and other people had seen it as well, that
22 guards were making the rounds upstairs and putting pressure on prisoners
23 to tell them about Zeka, and that person, because he was the senior in
24 that room, was also put under pressure. They told me that they had been
25 abused, maltreated, too. To what extent, I don't know.
1 Q. After Mr. Zekovic was captured and after this speech was held in
2 the yard, were you punished further on? Did someone punish the work crew
3 members and others?
4 A. I think that a part of that crew was released, and Savo Todovic
5 told me then that he would punish me with two months' solitary confinement
6 and that I would not be working outside but exclusively, only, in the
7 metalwork shop. And I think that I was actually in solitary confinement
8 for 15 days or so only, and then I was returned to my room.
9 Q. Except for this incident with Mr. Zekovic, were you interrogated
10 when you arrived in the KP Dom?
11 A. You mean on the 18th of April, 1992?
12 Q. I mean following the 18th of April. Were you interrogated at some
13 point in time?
14 A. I think I gave a statement up there in May, I believe. Do you
15 mean that, or do you mean what happened right after Zeka?
16 Q. No, no. We are talking now about May, May 1992, when you "gave a
17 statement up there." What does it mean, "up there"? Where were you?
18 Where did you give this statement?
19 A. I gave that statement in the offices right behind the warden's
20 office. Those were offices looking towards the back of the compound. I
21 was invited there sometime in May. I wouldn't know the date. They were
22 Vojo Starovic and Vladicic, whose first name I forget. And Vladicic --
23 actually, we were discussing how some people had reported lots of weapons
24 in existence, and Telo Mustafa was mentioned. And he typed out a
25 statement without even asking me much. He didn't even ask me. I knew
1 this Vladicic from before, and he asked me to read it and to sign it, if I
2 agree with it. I didn't even read it, actually. I just signed it and
3 returned it to him.
4 Q. You said that you were -- you gave this statement in an office
5 right behind the warden's office. Does that mean on the second floor, on
6 the same floor as the warden's office was, or somewhere else in the
7 administration building?
8 A. Yes, yes. If we take it that the warden's office is here, then
9 it means on the inside. So it could be the second or the third room from
10 the warden's building.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
12 show the witness the floor plan 6/3.
13 Q. Could you, could you point out where you gave the statement?
14 This is actually the second floor.
15 A. This part here, approximately. This part here. Well, I can't say
16 exactly whether it was, this one or that one, because I -- when I came
17 there to give a statement, I didn't really count. But I think it's this
18 area here. It's either of the two.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the two offices
20 on the right side seen from the warden's office, and it says Upravna on
21 the floor plan. It's called Upravna.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Were you mistreated during the interrogation?
24 A. No, I wasn't.
25 Q. Did they tell you what would happen with your statement or what
1 would happen with you?
2 A. Well, you know, this Vojo Starovic told me while they were sitting
3 there talking -- actually, Vladicic was the one who was supposed to finish
4 this business with me, and since Starovic was there anyway, making his own
5 investigations, the two of them shared an office. And he said that we
6 would all be put into categories: Those who were loyal to the Serbian
7 state would be released. Those who were against that state, all according
8 to their lists, of course, would be punished, some more, some less. But
9 it all boiled down to the fact that we would all be categorised, divided
10 into groups. And I just remembered, I seem to have read on the top of my
11 statement, "Muhamed Lisica is loyal to the Serbian state," or words to
12 that effect. In any case, the essence was that we would all be divided
13 into categories.
14 Q. Did Mr. Starovic or Mr. Vladicic, did they tell you in which
15 category you would be?
16 A. The most beautiful one, the first group, which was the best group.
17 Q. And did they indicate who would make the decision? Were they
18 actually making this decision that you were in the first group, or who?
19 A. Well, in order to be able -- well, I actually couldn't define
20 that, who would make the decision, but he was explaining that this
21 decision would be made, that you would be categorised. And when he said
22 that, he didn't say, "I would decide," and I didn't even ask him.
23 Q. Did you ever have a discussion about this grouping system, this
24 categorisation with other members of the KP Dom staff?
25 A. Well, you know, I talked to a lot of Serbs who worked on the staff
1 of the KP Dom, and it all came down to the same thing: You who are
2 working will be protected; you have it easy; you are not guilty of
3 anything. It all boiled down to that, that we were lucky, that it's very
4 good for us that we were working, because we belong thereby to this good
6 Q. Can you remember who said -- for instance, can you give us
7 examples of guards or staff members who said that to you?
8 A. Yes, I can remember. There are many of them, actually. I heard
9 this story from Savo, from this Vojo, the interrogator. I think I was
10 told the same thing by this tall man, Obrenovic. Well, most of them told
11 me that. If I went guard by guard, then perhaps 40 or 50 per cent of them
12 told me the same thing, that it's a good thing for us we were working.
13 It's difficult to answer you precisely, but it all boils down to this
14 categorisation. And now when you ask me what each of these groups mean,
15 what do I know? The first group seems to be the best, the second is less
16 good, and the third is the worst.
17 Q. You mentioned Savo said that to you. You mean Savo Todovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you ever discuss this matter with a guard Radovan Vukovic?
20 A. I talked to him in the beginning, when I was caught, because he
21 was my next-door neighbour. And when he was -- when I was brought there,
22 he was a guard on the inside, and he called me out, and outside the
23 entrance. So I talked to him, and he said somebody from the neighbourhood
24 would go to the command to take care of me, and he also said we would be
25 divided into groups.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this guard is Radovan Vukovic,
2 is number 52 on the list P3, and the guard Obrenovic that the witness
3 mentioned in this connection is number 46.
4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
6 Q. You said that you were in the most favourable group, and you
7 mentioned the group -- second group is less good and the third group is
8 the worst. Did any guard or prison staff member ever indicate what would
9 happen to the third group, people in the third group, or could happen to
11 A. That's very, very difficult to define, but a fact that we all
12 knew, all of us inmates in the camp, and even the prison guards, was that
13 if the first group was going to be released, the second group was going to
14 be punished with some prison sentence, then the third group would be in
15 greatest trouble, would be given the harshest punishment. I don't know
16 exactly what was meant by that. Perhaps a long prison sentence, perhaps
17 something else.
18 Q. Did you notice that detainees were taken out for beatings?
19 A. Yes, I did notice. They beat people. They took them out; they
20 returned them. Some people were taken out and never returned. Some
21 people returned with scars. It lasted from May until August. After that,
22 it didn't happen.
23 Q. We do not need to talk about all the detainees that were taken
24 out, beaten, that you saw returned, because we have already heard a lot of
25 evidence on this. But I would like to discuss a few particular incidents
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 with you. Did you ever see, actually see with your own eyes, that people
2 were beaten? Not that they returned with injuries, but that they were
3 beaten, actually?
4 A. Yes. Once from Room 11 I watched, and when you are looking from
5 Room 11 at an angle of 45 degrees down at the administration building, I
6 think in that building first there was a toilet, a staircase, then some
7 administrative offices, and then behind the toilet and the staircase there
8 were rooms with windows half painted over, and they were broken in many
9 places, the window panes. And when you look at this area from Room 11, at
10 this angle, what I could see were persons up to the waist, Muslims. I was
11 watching from there. I couldn't see the guards beating them. I could see
12 the persons who were being beaten, looking at them -- looking down at
13 them, because I was above them.
14 And there I saw Kula. That's the name I knew him by. I think his
15 first name was Mustafa. He was being beaten and slapped on the face while
16 he was standing against the wall, but he wasn't standing inside the room.
17 When you look at the room, there is a door. This door was open and it
18 leads to the hallway, so that was happening in the hallway.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
20 show the witness Exhibit 6/1.
21 Q. Can you point out the room where the beatings occurred when you
22 saw it?
23 A. If this is the building, if that is Room 11, it has two windows
24 here, I think, two or three, and over here two or three. I have no idea
25 whatsoever. I was in this room here. Here, one of the windows, when you
1 look this way under an angle of 45 degrees directly here, into these rooms
2 here - because I was here - you have a direct view of these rooms here.
3 Now, if this is the staircase, if this is the toilet, then it was
4 these rooms here, and this is where the hall is. And now there's a door
5 here, right? One door, the other door. And now I could see, in this
6 angle, up to the waist, the person who was being beaten and the persons
7 who were doing the beatings. I had a direct view, face to face, of the
8 person who was being beaten, while I saw the backs of the persons who were
9 doing the beatings. That is one thing.
10 The other thing is that I saw a lot of commotion here and also
11 people kicking, and I couldn't see the floor, though.
12 Q. Witness, I have to interrupt you because I have to tell for the
13 record where you were pointing at. And if I understand you correctly, you
14 were pointing at the room -- at the second room, counting from the left
15 side of the administration building, next to the room where it says "Tel"
16 in it; is that right?
17 A. It says "Tel." I don't know -- well, yes, yes. It's this room,
18 yes, and this view from here. Yes.
19 Q. Let me clarify. Did the beating that you saw, did you see it in
20 this room where it says "Tel," that is, next to the toilet, or in the next
21 following room?
22 A. You know what, I didn't think about this, whether it was in this
23 room or in this room, but it was in one of these two rooms. That I'm 100
24 per cent sure. I think - at least, that's what I think - it's in this
25 room where it says "Tel."
1 Now let me tell you a different story. When I see it from there,
2 I did not really register this because there were lots of windows here. I
3 could not exactly register. This is the room. It's precisely this Tel
4 room that you are talking about.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. It's enough with the plan. Maybe
6 it's --
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I think that my learned colleague
10 omitted to tell us for the transcript the place where he was looking from,
11 and the witness also showed us that. He showed the right-hand side of
12 building number 1, and I think that that should also be reflected in the
13 transcript. He showed exactly where he was looking from, under which
15 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think that you could quite safely say it was
16 the right-hand side. It was towards the right-hand side.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Bakrac and Your Honour, I just -- I
18 wanted to use now the floor plan where we see Room 11 so that he can point
19 it out to us --
20 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- So I was coming to this. For me it was
22 not really obvious, because he was moving, and I always hear it later.
23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now he is going to get a
24 room that -- where it says number 11. He can't point number 15. He's
25 going to point at number 11. This was a floor plan of the building where
1 the room numbers are not marked.
2 JUDGE HUNT: I think, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, the Defence is entitled
3 to have recorded what it was he was pointing at.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
5 JUDGE HUNT: The problem that you and I suffer from is that we are
6 hearing the translation, which is about half a sentence behind. But my
7 impression was that he pointed first of all roundabout the middle, then
8 moved towards the right.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
10 JUDGE HUNT: But he wasn't at the right end, as Mr. Bakrac
11 suggests, with all due respect to him, but it was to the right side of the
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Do you agree with that?
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac, if you want to have your view recorded
17 differently, please say so, but -- because you were obviously hearing the
18 witness at the same time as he was pointing, which is an advantage we
19 don't have.
20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I fully agree with you.
21 First he showed the middle part of building number 1, and then he started
22 moving the pointer towards the right-hand side. I fully subscribe to your
23 description. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Very well. Thank you.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.
1 JUDGE HUNT: We can proceed now with the map.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Is there now the map 6/2 in front of
3 him? Yes.
4 Q. Now, Witness, you see here a floor plan, and there are rooms in
5 the prisoners' quarters indicated. Can you show us where you were when
6 you saw what happened in the room marked as "Tel"? Where were you when
7 you saw Mr. Kula being beaten?
8 A. In this room. Sometimes I was in this room, sometimes I was in
9 that room, but at that moment when I saw Kula, I was in this room, at this
10 end here, right here, because I think -- I don't know. I've forgotten,
11 but I think there are two rooms here, or three. And here, also, there are
12 two or three rooms. I wasn't really counting them. So I was precisely in
13 this room.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the right room in
15 this protruding building.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Part of Room 11, yes.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, part of Room 11.
18 Q. When you pointed out where you were in Room 11 on this other
19 sketch, you also moved your pointer to the right side. Did you also
20 observe what was going on in the administration building from other
21 windows than the one that you just indicated?
22 A. You have to repeat all of this to me.
23 Q. Yes. You said that you saw from this Room 11, this right-hand
24 room, you saw what was happening in "Tel." Were you also observing what
25 was going on from other sections of Room 11?
1 A. Whether others could see it or whether I could see it?
2 Q. You. You.
3 A. Well, it could only be seen from this room and that room. As for
4 the other rooms, you could not see it from there. While this was
5 happening, I was going from this room to that room. I would watch it for
6 about five or six minutes and then I'd leave, and then I'd take a little
7 walk here and then I'd come to this room. But I spent most of my time
8 precisely in this room, the one I'm showing you right now. Here. Here.
9 Can you see the pointer?
10 Q. Yes.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was again pointing at that
12 same room, the right room from Room 11.
13 Yes. Thank you.
14 Q. You said you recognised Mr. Kula Mustafa. Is it Mustafa
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was he the only one that was beaten on this occasion when you saw
18 what was happening?
19 A. You know what, the month of May, the end of the month of May, in
20 June and July, practically every day -- not every day, but almost every
21 day, 80 per cent; I was not watching all the time. I don't know why. I
22 mean, when I was personally watching, I saw Kuloglija Mustafa, Munib Veiz,
23 and I only watched one single night. I did not watch during the night
24 after that or the night before that. That's when I saw Kula. Because
25 this view that you have from up here -- I'm afraid I'm going to make a
1 mistake now in terms of metres, but it's not far away. It's not far
2 away. You can actually see it, because where I was, the lights were
3 turned off, and over there, the lights were turned on, so you could see.
4 Then also another thing: If you could not see something, you know who was
5 taken out and then you know who was beaten there.
6 So I saw Kula being beaten and I saw Munib Veiz. Why did I see
7 Munib Veiz? I saw his hand and I saw his wristwatch. He had a yellow
8 wristwatch, and you could see quite obviously that it was his hand, and
9 that's how I came to the conclusion that it was Munib Veiz.
10 Q. Was that on the same night that you saw the hand of Mr. Veiz,
11 Munib Veiz? Was that the same night?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recall any other person that was called out on that same
14 night at the same time?
15 A. Kemo Dzelilovic, I think, Pasovic. Well, when I personally was
16 watching, I think that they took out four or five persons.
17 Q. You mentioned a person Pasovic. Is this Mensud Pasovic or does
18 this person have a different name?
19 A. I knew him as Pasko, under the nickname of Pasko. He had a shop,
20 and then later they told me Pasovic, but I don't know the name. I really
21 don't know names.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Munib Veiz is listed under C-28
23 and B-59. Kemo Dzelilovic is C-7 and B-19. Mustafa Kuloglija is B-35 and
24 C-15, and we have a Mr. Pasovic, Mensud, listed under B-44, but I think we
25 cannot be sure at the moment.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
3 Q. Did these men return after this beating?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You mentioned that you could see because the light was on. Was
6 light on in the room, in the room -- in this room where the beating
8 A. It was lit pretty well. Well, it was most probably in the room
9 because it was lit pretty well. You could see well.
10 Q. Was it already dark outside?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you recognise any of the beaters? You said they were with
13 their backs to you. Could you recognise any, nevertheless?
14 A. I did not recognise them, no. No, I did not. Usually all of them
15 were military men, because they had quite a few camouflage uniforms and
16 military uniforms.
17 Q. So those who beat were not the guards; they were military people?
18 A. I personally saw that they were not wearing KP Dom uniforms, that
19 they had camouflage uniforms and military uniforms, military uniforms,
20 right. But I actually saw a guard there, Burilo was his name, who was
21 walking around there, but I didn't see him beating anyone. I'm telling
22 you again: They had their backs turned to me, and I would see the person
23 who was being beaten. I saw his face, so what could I see? Their backs
24 from the waist upwards.
25 The KP Dom uniform was some kind of bluish colour. I don't know
1 that colour exactly. So it was quite different from the military uniform,
2 so you could see that quite obviously. You could see whether it's a guard
3 who was doing the beating or this other guy, or whether a KP Dom uniform
4 was being worn.
5 Q. And you mentioned that Burilo was there. Did you see him do
7 A. Yes. Once I saw Burilo go up those stairs that are there in the
8 drawing. He went and brought a blanket in his hands. I saw that. And
9 now, if you can see a person down to the waist, then you can see that
10 hands are being lifted this way in order to lift something. Now, you
11 don't see what it is down there, but you see that this person is lifting
12 something with his hands and obviously carrying something. Now, I could
13 not see what he was carrying, because you see under a certain angle, so
14 you see this part here. Or if he turns around, then you can see up to
15 here, approximately.
16 So then you can see by the movement of his hands what he is doing.
17 You can assume what he is doing. So I saw that he was, like, lifting
18 something, like lifting something difficult -- like lifting something
19 heavy. And people were being beaten there, and also you could hear
20 gunshots. So we said, "Oh, so they're carrying the Muslims out. They
21 killed them and now they're taking them out."
22 Q. When did you hear the gunshots?
23 A. Well, that was also after the beatings and all of that. That's
24 when the gunshots were heard. Now, did the beatings go on for two hours
25 and was it after two hours of all of this? I think four to six gunshots
1 rang out, and after these gunshots, Burilo went to get a blanket and came
3 Q. And could you make out from where the gunshots came? Could you
4 hear where it came from?
5 A. Well, listen. If you're standing in this Room 11, if you hear
6 gunshots, then, as you were listening to that, you realise that it was
7 coming from there. Now -- I mean, once, for example, I saw fire, fire
8 coming out of a pistol, and then all the sounds reflected that it was
9 coming from there.
10 Q. You mean from this room "Tel," T-e-l?
11 A. Yes. Or the one next to it. Don't do this, please. I'm 90 per
12 cent sure that it was from the "Tel" room, but, you know, there are quite
13 a few windows there, and these windows are separated from one another.
14 Perhaps there's the toilet, there's the staircase, and then these rooms.
15 And now when you look from up here, I cannot tell you: Right, it is that
16 room exactly.
17 If I were to come to the KP Dom and if I were to be looking at
18 that window, then I'd send you to that window and then I would tell you
19 which room to go to and you would know for sure which room it is, because
20 you can see that on the spot, actually.
21 So it happened somewhere those three or four windows. So it's not
22 the toilet, it's not the staircase, so it's the room next to the
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
25 show the witness the photo 7473.
1 Q. Would you be able to point out the window to us? It's obscured.
2 It's a little bit --
3 JUDGE HUNT: There is a better -- there's a better one than that,
4 is there not, that you look right down from round about Room 11?
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but the problem is that we cannot see
6 where the building ends on this other photo. That's the problem with
7 these other photos.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Well --
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: But we -- the trees --
10 JUDGE HUNT: I would find it very difficult to see any windows
11 there with the trees.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. It's difficult. Let's use the photo
13 7475, although you cannot see where the end is, actually, of the building.
14 JUDGE HUNT: That's the one I had in mind.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Can we not locate where those two damaged portions of
17 the wall are on the other photograph --
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
19 JUDGE HUNT: -- so that you can see that the first window here is
20 either the first window from the end of the building or not?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We should have both photos in front of
22 the witness. I think it's then easier.
23 JUDGE HUNT: We can agree upon that.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
25 JUDGE HUNT: It would help the witness, no doubt, to have both
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
3 JUDGE HUNT: But am I right the first window you see is in fact
4 the first window past the doorway into the administration block?
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
6 Q. Witness, if you look at the upper photo first, you see there is a
7 kind of -- after the first window, right under this number 1, there is --
8 no. It's --
9 JUDGE HUNT: I've just seen for myself. The window you see on the
10 other photograph, the second one you showed him, was the second one from
11 the door.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. You see there is a kind of renovated
13 spot under number 1. Now if you look at the other photo, this photo, you
14 have to have -- we have to have a wider -- we have to see more of the
15 photo. Can you move it so that -- we need to see more of the photo, the
16 entire photo, please. The entire photo. Yes. Stop.
17 Q. You see here this same renovated spot, and can you, from now,
18 looking at this, can you point out the window?
19 A. I think it's these two windows. If this is the staircase, this is
20 the toilet, this is the entrance, then it could be these windows here. If
21 you're looking --
22 Q. Please --
23 A. These. These also. So it's probably these windows here, 1, 2, 3.
24 Q. With --
25 A. One of those.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness was actually pointing at
2 the second and third window counted from the left side.
3 Q. But you said -- actually, you pointed at the first window and said
4 this is the --
5 JUDGE HUNT: It was the second and third window from the
6 right-hand side of the building that he pointed to. You see where the
7 pipe, the drainage pipe goes down between the windows? He pointed to the
8 one which is second to the right of that and third to the right of that.
9 If you start from number 1 on the right-hand side, he pointed to the
10 second and third from the right-hand side.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. That I wanted to say, didn't I?
12 JUDGE HUNT: You didn't. You said to the left, that's the
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I confused left and right. I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Are you left-handed?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No.
17 JUDGE HUNT: I only ask that because my wife is left-handed and
18 she always tells me the wrong way.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I often confuse it too, I'm sorry. I wanted
20 to say "right." Yes.
21 Q. Witness, you said the third window on the left-hand side was the
22 toilet, and this was not the toilet.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay. Thank you. We can put the photos away.
24 Q. Witness, after you heard the shots and after you saw Burilo
25 lifting something that you couldn't really see, did you hear anything
2 A. Well, then the beating affair was over and that's it; that was
3 over. I heard, and I wasn't the only one - lots of us heard this - we
4 heard the Kedi vehicle that we talked about earlier. We heard something
5 being dragged, then we hear the car being ignited, and now we link all of
6 this together. The Kedi is turned on and then you see when the Kedi is
7 turned on, you see it's hard for it to get going. For example, I and all
8 the mechanics know that if you put four men into a car or if you're in the
9 car on your own and if you turn on the car, I know whether you have people
10 in the car or whether you're there on your own.
11 Perhaps it was about 15 minutes or so, and then the sound was
12 interrupted. And now what I heard, that they could not turn the car on
13 easily, was only because of the exhaust pipe. It was faulty. So then you
14 could hear the way it worked. And after about 15 minutes, there was no
15 more sound. After a while, I don't know, an hour or so - I don't know
16 exactly - the sound could be heard again. It came to the KP Dom and then
17 it disappeared again. That was over.
18 Q. Yes. Witness, you mentioned that such incidents occurred on
19 several occasions, but you watched it only once, the one time that you
20 described to us. Did you hear beatings where you didn't see anything, but
21 heard beatings?
22 A. Well, yes, but what I heard I had to hear from the hall. When you
23 enter number 11 -- first when you enter number 11, there is a hall, and
24 then in this hall there is a toilet and a sink, and then that hall faces
25 directly this window that you showed here in the picture. And then that
1 should be the hall of the iron door. That's where I heard the moans and
2 names being called out. I know which name: Nurko, Nurko. Somebody was
3 yelling, "Nurko, Nurko, Nurko, wake up," and you could hear the moans.
4 Q. Witness, with the help of the usher, I would like you to look
5 again at the floor plan 6/2. And can you point out --
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We need to see the prisoners' quarters. Yes.
7 Q. Can you point out the hallway you were, where you were when you
8 heard these sounds?
9 A. This hall here. If this is within 11, I can't tell by this
10 drawing of yours. One, two, three -- no -- yes. Yes. It's this hall
11 here. And this hall here, exactly. This is that part. I think there's a
12 window here, a window that was painted over, and that I actually heard
13 these sounds from here, and this was actually taking place here.
14 When I listened to this from here, when you come here or here,
15 then you couldn't hear it that much. Somewhat less, I don't know why.
16 And I was standing here. It wasn't only me; it was a few of us standing
17 there, and we heard that, "Nurko, Nurko." We heard his moans, but we
18 didn't know who was being beaten. However, since this other one was
19 saying, "Nurko, Nurko," we realized it was some Nurko. Now, which Nurko,
20 I don't know either, but it was Nurko.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness, in relation to his own position,
22 was pointing at the hall in the set of rooms 11 below the WC and this
23 other -- the other word is UMIV. And he was pointing at this passage,
24 this hall behind the metal door, where the beating -- where the sounds
25 came when he heard this "Nurko, Nurko." Yes. Thank you.
1 Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that the witness is
2 referring to Nurko Nisic. He is the only Nurko that was ever mentioned as
3 being a victim, and that's C-19 and 5.27 in the schedules and in the
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
7 Q. Let me ask you: Did you see or hear the Croat Krunoslav Marinovic
8 being beaten?
9 A. I heard sounds made by other people, but whether it was precisely
10 him, I don't know. I cannot recall right now, but he was in my room. I
11 know when he was taken out, and when he was taken out, another man was
12 taken out with him. Sounds could be heard then, moans. But whether it
13 was Kruno's voice or not, I couldn't say with any certainty, but it
14 couldn't have been anyone but the two of them.
15 Q. Do you recall who was taken out together with Mr. Kruno Marinovic?
16 A. I'm afraid I cannot recall right now.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the victim Marinovic is listed
18 under C-17.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
21 Q. Those victims that we had just mentioned, did you see any of them
22 being beaten on another occasion, and did you see them return on this
24 A. Well, it happened on other occasions during interrogations, and
25 after interrogations, those things would happen in the afternoon, just
1 before dark. Another neighbour of mine was taken out, Ekinda, I believe
2 his name was, Cedic. He was taken out, beaten up, and returned. They
3 took out Dzemo Vahida, who was also in my room. He too was beaten up and
4 brought back. I saw the scars on their faces. I cannot remember really.
5 We had a rule there: The person who would return from a beating
6 would never be asked about it. It could only be discussed 10 or 15 days
7 later. But as far as this Ekinda is concerned and the other people who
8 were with me in the same room, Room 11, they were lying next to my bed,
9 and I saw the scars on their faces, and that's how I knew they had been
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Ekinda Cedic is listed under
12 C-5, and Mr. Vahida Dzemo is listed under C-27 and 5.29.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
15 Q. These other victims that you have already mentioned, Mr. Munib
16 Veiz, was he taken out on several occasions and did you see him return
17 with injuries?
18 A. Through a combination of circumstances, he came to Room 11 from
19 upstairs where this group from Livade was incarcerated, and he was beaten,
20 too. I could see the bruises on his legs and on his back. And once when
21 he was taken out downstairs and when he came back, I could see that he
22 had been beaten, but there were no signs of injury on his face. I don't
23 know whether he had been beaten.
24 Q. And Mr. Dzelilovic, was he also taken on several occasions and did
25 he return being beaten?
1 A. As far as I can remember -- yes, he was taken out once, and he was
2 beaten. There was a bruise here on his face, right here, but I don't know
3 how badly he was beaten.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: When the witness was saying that, he was
5 pointing at his -- on the left side of his --
6 JUDGE HUNT: Forehead.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Forehead, yes.
8 Q. Konjo Halim, was he taken out and beaten?
9 A. Konjo Halim. It was right at the beginning when the camp was just
10 established, and the boss there was still Slavko Koroman. I was listening
11 to his interrogation and the beating. It could have been a Friday or a
12 Saturday. On Sunday I went out with Slavko to work, and Slavko told me
13 that Konjo had died, that the doctors had established that he had suffered
14 a stroke and that he would have died anyway. And I also can say about one
15 of the guards who didn't work in the KP Dom at all, I met him down there
16 in the hospital, because I was building something which had to do with the
17 morgue. It was in the hallway from the reception area to the morgue. And
18 this guard told me that he was lying there in the morgue, that he had
19 suffered a heart attack, that he hadn't died from the beating but that he
20 had died from this heart attack.
21 Q. Did you see the body of Halim Konjo himself?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the morgue or where?
24 A. I went to the morgue myself. I saw the body there. I wasn't
25 really very keen on looking closely whether it was him or not him, but a
1 corpse was lying there and they told me it was Halim.
2 Q. And you mentioned Mr. Koroman. He is on the list of employees as
3 the number 32. And do you recall the other guard that mentioned him as
4 well, the corpse, I mean? Do you know the name of this other guard?
5 A. I couldn't really say. I knew all the guards. Some of them I
6 knew from before, but I cannot really recall now. I remember only those
7 of the guards whom I had known from before, and I also remember the one
8 who hit me, because he hit me. But I cannot really tell his name now.
9 Q. Yes. Do you know a Halid Konjo, and can you tell us what
10 happened to him?
11 A. I knew him very well too. He's also a native of Foca. He was
12 taken out, allegedly to pick plums, and that's all I know as to where he
13 had gone.
14 Q. Yes. Nail Hodzic, was he taken out and beaten?
15 A. Nail Hodzic left completely on his own. He was in my room at the
16 time. He left towards the end of that affair. I remember that he asked
17 me for advice, What am I to do? A man called Pejic Boban came and asked
18 him, and he was told, "Don't be afraid. You're just going for an
19 interrogation. They will interrogate you and let you go," but he never
20 came back.
21 Q. When he was taken, did you hear also the sounds of beatings and
23 A. Well, as for moans and screams, I don't know, but I could hear the
24 interrogation; questions, explanations, answers. But I dare not say
25 before this Court with any certainty whether I heard moans or screams; I
1 couldn't really say.
2 Q. And did you hear or did you personally see his body or did you
3 hear that some other detainees saw the body of this person, Nail Hodzic?
4 A. Once this man Avdo told me - I don't remember his last name - who
5 was going with another person to take these bodies to Foca, because I knew
6 Nail Hodzic. He used to wear a cap and he had grey hair. This man said
7 he knew Nail Hodzic and he pushed his body down the river. But I never
8 saw him later, and I don't think he's alive really.
9 Q. What happened to Avdo?
10 A. I don't know the real truth as to what happened, but I know that
11 the International Red Cross came at that time from Trebinje and the
12 chairperson there was Gordana and there was a fat American lady, and they
13 told us that we can speak openly. The guards were not present. It was a
14 rule that the guard would lock us up and leave. And I told him and other
15 people, "Don't say too much. Keep quiet. God knows what might happen to
16 us." After all, this Gordana woman was a Serb, and you never know. But
17 he told a lot of things anyway, about this and that. And indeed, they did
18 take him out after that and he never returned. I don't know whether it
19 was coincidence. I don't know whether this Gordana woman told other
20 people what he had said. But in any case ...
21 Q. You said that he said this and that. Did he actually mention that
22 Mr. Nail Hodzic was killed or did he mention Mr. Hodzic when he spoke to
23 the ICRC people?
24 A. Yes. Yes, he did mention Hodzic and some other people. He even
25 mentioned some people whose names I don't know, in fact, whom I don't know
1 by name. And he said that he went to Foca on several occasions to push
2 those bodies. It's not only I who heard this; it's other prisoners as
4 Q. And when did it happen that Mr. Avdo told the Red Cross about Nail
5 Hodzic and others, and the bodies of others? Was it in 1992 or later?
6 A. I think it was 1993, but I couldn't give you the exact date.
7 Because it was some kind of International Red Cross from Trebinje.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the victim Nail Hodzic is
9 mentioned under C-10. The guard Pejic Boban is listed under 91 in the
10 employee list; and Mr. Avdo, we are not able to say his last name. We
11 cannot identify him.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. Witness, in your previous statements you gave a lot of other names
15 of victims, but I do not want to refer to all of them, because we have
16 already heard a lot about these people. Just a very few others. Soro
17 Seval, was he taken away in these beating incidents? Do you know?
18 A. I know he was taken away also on his own, but I don't know whether
19 he was beaten.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is C-24.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
23 Q. Alija Altoka, what can you tell us about him?
24 A. About who?
25 Q. Alija Altoka.
1 A. Omer and Alija Altoka, I don't know anything about the two of
2 them, but I know they had left.
3 Q. And Adil Granov?
4 A. I know he was taken away, and I know that somebody said he had
5 been informed on as owning a radio transistor, and he was taken out, but I
6 don't know any more.
7 Q. You have -- yesterday you described to us that you cleaned blood
8 of the Kedi. Was that timely related to these beatings that you
10 A. Well, I was washing away this blood. It could have been June when
11 these isolation cells were being prepared. And all these events took
12 place from May to August, the 15th of August. It was not in May or
13 August, so it could have been in June or July. I think -- I cannot claim
14 that it was human blood, but there had been beatings that night and I went
15 later to clean those isolation cells, and I remember while I was doing it
16 I was thinking that it was human blood, and I had heard that some corpses
17 had been thrown into the river, so I put all those pieces together and
18 that was the picture I got. That's my opinion.
19 Q. Did you see bloodstains in the building, in the administration
20 building, at that time?
21 A. Yes. That did happen sometimes, but since I had to lift my -- to
22 put my hands up to be searched, there was a shelf behind me. I could put
23 the things from my pockets there while they were searching me. And that
24 was like bloodstains which had paled from frequent cleaning. It looked as
25 if it had been washed before and the colour was paler.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to
2 show the witness the photo 7470.
3 Q. The bloodstains, did you see them in this hall, and if so, where?
4 A. Well, my eyesight is not so good any more, but I noticed them here
5 in this area and in this part here, because I was standing here with my
6 hands up. And I stood for a long while and I had time to look. And here,
7 you don't have this photograph here, where this censorship area and the
8 detector, the metal detector, I saw most bloodstains here, so it could
9 have been up to this door here. And for some length behind that door.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing on the left wall of
11 this hall, and on the floor in front of this hall.
12 Q. But you were also pointing at something that you cannot see, you
13 cannot see on the photo.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we have the top photo? Can you --
15 A. If anybody knows this area, when you start from here, this is the
16 entrance into this room. Someplace here there is this metal detector, the
17 censorship area. You have to go through this detector and behind the
18 detector is this area that I'm talking about, where the bloodstains could
19 be. It's difficult to explain now. If I could get there, I could explain
20 easily on the spot. It's exactly the way you presented it.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Let us see the photo 7446.
22 Q. Did you see bloodstains in this hall as well? The upper photo,
23 please. Do you mean this hall?
24 A. This hallway. No. It was in the hallway we looked at before, at
25 the very beginning of -- from this door here. It's in this hallway. When
1 I would stop there, I could see the bloodstains.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you.
3 Q. If I understand you correctly, you saw it --
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 7470 again.
5 A. This area here, then this area here. This is approximately this
6 detector door. So here a little, here a little, and this here, some of
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness was pointing at both walls,
9 the right wall and the left wall, and also pointing at something further
10 on that is not seen on the photo but belongs to that same hall.
11 Q. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, a part of it.
13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.
15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but since we've already
16 heard some descriptions, it's important for us to be reflected in the
17 transcript that speaking about the right wall, the witness showed the
18 border between the yellow paint and the blue paint, which is confirmed.
19 So he showed some place in the middle of this wall.
20 A. Yes. This area here.
21 JUDGE HUNT: And he was pointing to the left of the hat stand or
22 coat rack, whatever it is there. There's a discolouration on the wall and
23 it's on a corner and that's where he was pointing.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
25 Q. Witness, these detainees who did not return, do you know what
1 happened to them? Do you know if they are still alive?
2 A. Well, you're asking me such questions. I was inside the camp. I
3 don't know what happened, what was happening on the other side, but my
4 information is that these people are missing, they're gone, they're
5 killed. Kemo, for instance, Dzelilovic, he's a neighbour of mine. I know
6 -- I contacted his wife, I know that he was never heard from again.
7 Munib Veiz, I know him -- I knew him too. I contacted his
8 friends. I know he was never heard from.
9 Q. Did any of the prison staff members ever talk about these
11 A. I know what you mean. Once this guy who was not a prisoner, he
12 was a Serb, told me about these people who were his neighbours. He told
13 me that at Previla he recognised the corpses of Suljo Soro and some man
14 called Rasim Kajgana and some other corpses which he didn't know, and the
15 people who he used to know were those same people. So it's something I
16 heard from another person. I have no direct knowledge, if that is what
17 you meant.
18 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Relja Goljanin and Mr. Rasevic speak about
19 Kemo Dzelilovic and what had happened to him?
20 A. I don't know. I heard on one occasion that they were
21 discussing -- but all this was happening in 1992 when we were very
22 frightened. But it was precisely what you mentioned. It was something to
23 the effect: We're sorry about these people. They were discussing it
24 amongst themselves while I was working not far away. I think it happened
25 in the hospital. I really cannot remember now. It's been a long time,
1 seven or eight years. You forget even more important things. You forget
2 even what you had for breakfast today. But I heard something to this
4 Q. And did you ever -- did you ever hear -- overhear that someone
5 talked to Mr. Rasevic about the killing of Muslims?
6 JUDGE HUNT: Do you think this --
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Rather than go on with it, I think we may take the
9 break now. We'll resume at 11.30.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Witness, did you ever overhear someone talking to Mr. Rasevic
15 about killings while you were sitting in a car?
16 A. Yes, once. I was with the man under code number 144. I think we
17 were on our way back from the hospital. For some reason we could not
18 enter the KP Dom immediately because there was a group of soldiers in
19 front of the KP Dom, so we waited. And then Sefko Kubat was sick. And
20 Cedo, I think, Krnojelac, walked up to him. Now, was Rasevic the first to
21 speak or Cedo, to say that Sefko Kubat was sick and that he should be
22 taken to hospital? Cedo said to him, "We'll give him the brief
23 procedure. Just take him to the bridge."
24 Since I was sitting in the back, and also number 144 -- yes,
25 number 144, he was sitting there with me -- Rasevic got a bit red and said
1 he should do his job as he was supposed to do it and that he has been
2 doing his job for 20 years already, professionally, and that he has
3 nothing to do with such things. So they were sort of quarrelling. Their
4 voices were a bit angry. And now, this Cedo Krnojelac, I did not see him,
5 because this is a car, a Black Marija; you can't really see very well. I
6 think this Cedo left. After that, in the meantime, we enter the KP Dom
8 Q. You said Cedo Krnojelac. Was he an employee of the KP Dom?
9 A. While I was at the KP Dom, he did work at the KP Dom. He was not
10 an official guard, as I knew the others to be. Was he employed only
11 during the war or had he been employed there before the war, I don't know
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have a Cedo Krnojelac
14 listed under number 18 in the employee list.
15 Q. You said that you couldn't see Mr. Cedo Krnojelac. How do you
16 know, then, that it was him?
17 A. Because Rasevic addressed him as Cedo. Since this Cedo Krnojelac
18 is an elderly man. I think he's older than I am. Also, I recognised the
19 voice. You see, when you talk to a person, you can also recognise him by
20 his voice. I knew it was this Cedo because I did have contacts with
21 him. He came to the metalwork shop several times.
22 Q. And you said that Cedo said, "We'll give him the brief procedure.
23 Just take him to the bridge." Did you understand what that meant?
24 A. Well, I think that you understand right now what it means. I
25 understood it to mean that he'd kill him and throw him in, whatever. You
1 know what, in the later stages of 1994, that was in 1994, Serbs and
2 Muslims started talking about such things, even by way of joking. Also,
3 once, Goran Mitrasinovic came up and he said to this Glavonja, who was
4 already mentioned, he said, "We're going to take Lija to the bridge," and
5 then they would show something with their hand this way, see. And then
6 Glavonja said, "What happened, happened." And that's what this man said
7 too because Sefko Kubat, I think in 1994, died in the KP Dom. He was in
8 the hospital and then he was returned from hospital because he had had
9 surgery performed on him. And this one said to him, "Are we going to take
10 him to the bridge where we've taken the rest," something to that effect,
11 so I knew approximately what that meant.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Can you describe the action with the witness's hands,
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. When the witness was talking about what
15 should be done with Lija, he made a movement in front of his throat as
16 slitting the throat.
17 Q. Is that what you meant? The movement that you did, was it like
18 indicating a slitting of the throat?
19 A. Well, you know, this movement, among us, the Serbs and Muslims, it
20 had a double meaning. When you show this, it means that you're going to
21 kill him or that he's going to end his life or you're going to slit his
22 throat. It's one of the three; but that's the point, that you will no
23 longer be around.
24 Q. Yes. Thank you. Witness, we heard from other witnesses already
25 that detainees disappeared in exchanges, and I do not want to go into much
1 detail on this, just a very few particular questions in relation to
2 this. Did you ever observe detainees being taken for exchange while you
3 were in the metalwork shop?
4 A. Once I noticed that they brought a Furgon vehicle in front of the
5 gate. I mean, the main administration building, the entrance into the
6 main administration building. I was working at that time. It could have
7 been around 11.00 in the morning. I was working up there on the roof,
8 where the metalwork shop is, and this Furgon was perhaps a metre away,
9 perhaps this far away. I don't know, perhaps a bit more. And I saw that
10 these people were thrown into the Furgon just like this, and they were
11 probably taken for an exchange or something. Because as for all the
12 exchanges that took place in the KP Dom, I always did that, and then I
13 would come in the evening and sometimes the Muslims would tell me
14 yesterday 12 people left or yesterday 20 people left. So it's not that I
15 really know about this, because I was not at the KP Dom itself.
16 Q. And you said that this Furgon was a metre away, from this entrance
17 to the KP Dom; is that what you mean?
18 A. Yes. Yes. It's not that I saw human faces very well, but, you
19 know, if you were watching -- for example, I was looking this way. If
20 the Furgon was facing in this direction, I would be watching it. If we
21 were -- I was on the right-hand side. Also, it was in an angle and then
22 you would see people getting in, right? Some even were being assisted to
23 enter, sort of pushed in. You would see that. And then when you would
24 come to the camp, then they would tell you 15 people were taken away
25 yesterday. And then I remembered. I would link things up together.
1 Yes, yesterday at 4.00 I saw these people entering the Furgon.
2 Q. And do you know when, approximately when you would observe
4 A. Well, that could have been the end of 1992. Because it's not very
5 cold yet, but then on the other hand, it's not very hot either, so it
6 could be October, November, something like that.
7 Q. Did Mr. Zekovic also observe something similar, and do you know
8 about that?
9 A. No. This was another occasion, not that one. Zeka and I had an
10 assignment, and also Mr. 144, and I think 73 -- no, 73 was not there.
11 We were making kiosks. The KP Dom was making kiosks. And Zeka climbed up
12 on a kiosk. Thee kiosks were in the metal shop, that is to say between
13 the two buildings. You had the picture there. Between the left and the
14 right one. But they were more towards the right. And now he climbed up
15 on the kiosk and I was down there, standing guard to see whether somebody
16 would come. And at that time -- I think it was 1993. At that time, the
17 guards were not that tense. They didn't guard us that attentively. And
18 then he climbed up and then he was watching and then he told me the Furgon
19 has been driven up, people are entering the Furgon, they are taking them
20 somewhere. Zeka told me this. I was down there, I couldn't see it.
21 Q. Were ever members of the metalwork shop taken away for exchange?
22 Do you know that?
23 A. Well, right at the outset, when the metalwork shop was
24 established, there was an Uzeir Hadzalic who was working with me. I think
25 that that Uzeir Hadzalic worked at the KP Dom before. I'm not sure.
1 There was Munib Hadzic, or rather Hodzic; Suad Islambasic; then some
2 Karahasanovic, nicknamed Karasi; then Avdo Kameric, I think, and some
3 others. One morning -- or rather, they were taken in the evening. They
4 were taken from the house, from the building, I mean, in the evening. And
5 we went to work. There were four or three of us, and then there were 12
6 of us, approximately. And Relja said, "Where are the others? Where are
7 they?" Because we would get into this metalwork shop, we would stand
8 there, and then Relja would come out and give us our assignments. And
9 where are they? And then I said, "They were taken out for an exchange."
10 And he cursed, he said something like, "Oh, fuck them, they took away my
11 best men." I think he said something brutal like that. And then he said
12 write all of this down. And then Dule, one of the guys who was there,
13 wrote all of this down. Actually, these people were taken away somewhere,
14 but we don't know where, and I was really sorry that I was not in that
15 group, because I thought that these people were being taken for an
16 exchange, but actually, they were killed, I guess.
17 Q. As a result of these workers disappearing, what happened? How did
18 Relja react to this? What did he do, except for cursing and being angry?
19 A. Well, I think that I said that a few minutes ago. I can't
20 remember now. He said, "They took away my best men." He cursed and he
21 said to Dule, "Make a list of these guys who are still there." Oh, yes,
22 right, you reminded me now. Then he said that he would go to the command
23 to ask not to have the others taken away too, that he would go to
24 the warden, he would go to the command, and say that we, the rest, should
25 not be taken because he needs these people. This was 1992, when the KP
1 Dom had all the materials needed, so he needed people to work. And I
2 think we made 10 or 15 kiosks, I don't know. Perhaps I did not say
3 everything word for word, but that is the gist of it.
4 Q. You said that he said -- Relja said he would go to the
5 command -- you said that he would go to the warden, he would go to the
6 command. Did he say it this way? Did he mention the warden and the
7 command? Do you recall?
8 A. Well, yes. You know what, at the KP Dom I personally know this,
9 because I had contacts. Actually, people there, I mean, these guards,
10 they didn't call anybody the director, the boss, or whatever. They said
11 number 1, number 2, number 3, in line, sort of. So I guess the KP Dom had
12 that before the war. And then man number 1 was --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down. The
14 interpreters cannot follow the sequence.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are stretching our interpreters beyond their
16 endurance at the moment. Please speak more slowly. It is very hard for
17 them to keep up with you.
18 A. All right. Man number 1, man number 2, man number 3, these were
19 the persons that the guards respected too. Savo Todovic, Krnojelac,
20 Rasevic, and some Miro Prodanovic, who was Rasevic's deputy. Relja
21 Goljanin. Those were the people at the KP Dom who were in charge,
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
24 Q. My question was: What exactly did Mr. Relja say? Did he say, "I
25 have to go to the warden," or did he say, "I have to go to the command,"
1 or both? Do you recall? What exactly did he say?
2 A. It is very hard for me to make a statement to that effect
3 officially as to what he said, but he said, "I'm going. I'm going to the
4 warden, I'm going to the command." Now, did he say, "I'm going to the
5 command." And then, "I'm going to the warden," I don't know, whether he
6 said one first or the other first, I don't know but he mentioned the
7 warden as well; that he would go to the command to demand that his people
8 not be taken away. It is hard for me to decide officially now he put it
9 this way or he put it that way. But he said he would go to the warden and
10 to the command did he say that he would go to see the warden and then the
11 command or the command and then the warden, it's hard for me to say now.
12 Q. Did he actually do that? Did he go to the warden? Do you know
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Did he inform you later on what was decided regarding his -- the
16 members of the work group?
17 A. I can't remember.
18 Q. You said that your names were taken down when that had happened.
19 Did you ever see a list with your name, later on, in the building?
20 A. Yes. On one occasion -- now, I don't know whether it was after
21 that, I think it was -- when I entered the building, precisely that
22 picture, the hallway, where we were carrying out that censorship, there
23 was a piece of paper and I saw it written there very nicely. At that time
24 I was really pleased. It said the metalwork shop and then people's names
25 listed. And this was pasted on, or rather it was nailed onto the wall,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and I saw my name and the names of others, like 249, 144, and Zeka. I
2 don't know whether you're really interested in whether I remember
3 everything, all the names who worked at the metalwork shop.
4 Q. I would like you to show the Court where you saw the list, and if
5 I understand you correctly, it's in -- I show you the photo 7470.
6 A. Here, the area here. So it's more towards the window. But at any
7 rate, it's here.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the left wall of
9 this room, above the board, the wooden board.
10 Yes. Thank you.
11 Q. You said that these workers that were taken away, and you
12 mentioned several names, they were actually killed. How do you know that?
13 A. Well, 1992, and now it is the year 2000. If they have not
14 reported to their family since, what do you think has happened to them?
15 Q. So you know from their families that these people are missing; is
16 that what you say?
17 A. Yes. Yes. That's right. Precisely.
18 Q. And a little bit earlier you mentioned that a Serb told you about
19 a Mr. Rasim Kajgana and Suljo Soro. Do you know when they were taken away
20 from the KP Dom?
21 A. Well, that was the autumn of 1992.
22 Q. How were they taken out of the KP Dom? Do you know?
23 A. I think that I have already pointed out that I think I saw only
24 one group that left the KP Dom, because I would always go out in the
25 morning and come back in the evening. So all the information I give you
1 right now is the information I received from the Muslims who were in the
2 camp. When I would come back from work, then they would say to me they
3 took 12 men, they took 15 men, things like that. That's the kind of
4 information I have. As for those who allegedly went to pick plums, since
5 a large number of my neighbours went, those who were from Cohodar Mahala,
6 people told me that they went to pick plums in the direction of
7 Ustikolina. I am not aware of any other information.
8 Q. And this Mr. Rasim Kajgana that you mentioned and Mr. Suljo Soro,
9 were they in this group of so-called plum pickers?
10 A. I think so, yes.
11 Q. And you mentioned that a Serb told you that these people were
12 killed. What did he tell you, and when did he tell you that?
13 A. Once I was working, I think it was in Unis, precisely, in
14 Cohodar Mahala, and this Serb who was in fact my neighbour and the
15 neighbour of those men who were killed, we were talking about the war,
16 it's not a good thing, things like that. And then he told me that during
17 his stay up there, I think it was at Previla, that he recognised these
18 men. Because he knew that I knew these people, and he knew these same
19 people, so we knew the same people. And he said that there were more
20 corpses but that he didn't know who that was.
21 Q. Let us briefly talk about some members of the prison staff we have
22 not yet talked about. Do you know the pre-war warden, Mr. Tesevic?
23 A. Yes, I knew him.
24 Q. Did you see Mr. Tesevic in the KP Dom during your confinement?
25 A. I think that at first I did.
1 Q. Yes. Do you recall when you saw him and what he was doing?
2 A. I think it was 1992, right at the beginning, when I was breaking
3 those locks. So approximately two or three weeks after the Foca Serbs
4 took over the KP Dom. A delegation came. Most of them were in civilian
5 clothes. Because they were making some plans for the KP Dom, and I saw
6 that there was a delegation. They had classy clothing. And they were
7 explaining something, but what it was, I can't really tell you right now.
8 Q. And Mr. Tesevic was among these people?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was Mr. Krnojelac present when this delegation came?
11 A. Well, listen. There were six or seven men. I think so.
12 Probably. Well, Krnojelac is here. Well, I think so.
13 Q. If you are not sure -- do you recall if Mr. Todovic or Rasevic
14 were present?
15 A. You know what, when I was working, I did not -- no. No. As much
16 as I can say about Krnojelac, that much I can say about Savo.
17 Q. So you are not sure if they were there?
18 A. Yeah. Yeah.
19 Q. Did you see Mr. Tesevic later on in the KP Dom as well, during
20 your confinement?
21 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps I saw him one more time, but again,
22 this was this very brief period. I just saw him then and not again.
23 Q. Yes. You have already described to us that you saw Mr. Krnojelac
24 on many occasions, you even had talks with him. Did you ever see him in
25 the evening in the KP Dom?
1 A. After 4.00 or 5.00, no, but I would see him around 4.00 or 3.30,
2 but I do not remember seeing him after 5.00. I mean, my working hours
3 were approximately until 3.30 or 4.00, and until then I would see him.
4 But then once I enter the compound, I did not see him in the compound.
5 Q. You had described to us in detail what he was wearing on this
6 first occasion when you saw him. On these later occasions, what did he
7 wear? Did he always wear military clothes, the same that you had
8 described to us, or did he wear something else?
9 A. Well, it depended. Sometimes he wore this uniform, sometimes he
10 did not wear it. Sometimes he wore civilian clothes, sometimes he just
11 wore this military coat. Usually it was unbuttoned and then underneath he
12 had civilian clothes. It was not that he wore this non-stop.
13 Q. Did you ever see him in the KP Dom with the police chief, Dragan
15 A. You know what, as for the beginning of 1992, they had a canteen
16 inside. Why, I don't know. And all the KP Dom people ate there and a lot
17 of people from Foca came to eat there. So they would come around 9.30.
18 But I can't remember having seen him with Dragan Gagovic. Dragan Gagovic
19 did come to the KP Dom for me to weld an exhaust pipe for him. But I do
20 not really remember having seen him with him, but they all came there to
21 eat, to have breakfast, and I would see the warden pass by too, or rather,
22 Krnojelac, passing by with some men, civilians and others, and then they
23 would go back. That was the beginning, 1992, that is. I can't really
24 remember whether I saw them together, that they were actually together.
25 Q. You have already mentioned that Boro Ivanovic occasionally came to
1 the KP Dom. Did you see him with Mr. Krnojelac except for this one
2 occasion after Zekovic escaped? Did you see them together on other
4 A. You know what, sometimes when I would go out to work at 7.00,
5 several times in front of the KP Dom, Krnojelac would appear, Rasevic, and
6 the rest. Once, Boro might have been standing there too, but I'm not
7 sure. I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure.
8 Q. Did a brother of Mr. Krnojelac work in the KP Dom?
9 A. Yes, he did. I knew his brother better than I knew him, better
10 than I knew this gentleman here. Yes. Arso Krnojelac did work there, and
11 I sat and talked to him often, because in fact, he was linked to the
12 garage, the mechanics' garage, so I was too, and then we would sometimes
13 sit and talk.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, this person Arso is Arsenije
15 Krnojelac, listed as Arsenije Krnojelac under 92.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
18 Q. Was he a driver, this Arso? Was he a driver?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you ever talk with him about Mr. Krnojelac, his brother, being
21 the warden?
22 A. Yes, I did, because Arso -- I mean, I knew him because he came to
23 the service shop there, and he was open towards me. We talked about this
24 several times. Once he said to me that Krnojelac is actually his
25 brother. This is a bit funny, but he said that he was an asshole, that he
1 had really had it for having taken that job and that he would be held
2 accountable for that at some point. And then we talked about his honesty
3 and things like that. That's what we talked about. Because Arso's son
4 worked at the carpentry, I think. He was the supervisor there, the
5 director or something, before the war.
6 Q. Savo Todovic, what was his exact function in the KP Dom? Can you
7 describe that?
8 A. Well, to tell you his exact function, I don't know, I cannot do
9 that. But I think he was in charge of the Muslims. He was completely
10 authorised for the Muslims, because anything that concerned assignments
11 for Muslims, who will work, where, and how people would be punished, all
12 that was done by Savo Todovic, and that's why I conclude that he was the
13 main person in charge of us at the KP Dom.
14 Q. Did Mr. Todovic also have dealings with the Serb prisoners that
15 were kept in this separate part?
16 A. He had dealings, but very little. But all the time that I was at
17 the camp he was going around with lists, crossing names out, including
18 them, and if we had any complaints, we addressed them to Savo. I don't
19 know. I think he was in charge of the prisoners. Whether he was in
20 charge of the civilians too or the military ones, I don't know.
21 Q. How did Mr. Todovic treat the Muslims? Can you describe that?
22 A. Well, you know, it depends on the person, but basically he was
24 Q. What do you mean by this?
25 A. Well, again, from the political point of view, things like: Look
1 at what Alija has done to you, as if he was seeking to humiliate us,
2 saying things like, "The fact that you're here, it's because Alija did it
3 to you, not because it's our fault." I know, at any rate, that we were
4 all afraid of him.
5 Q. And what exact position did Mr. Rasevic have?
6 A. As far as I know, Rasevic was in charge of the guards. I don't
7 know how you call them. Guards, probably. That was his position.
8 Q. Do you know if the guards reported to Mr. Rasevic on a daily
10 A. Well, look. I know guards who did certain things they didn't
11 report about. They would take out a Muslim, beat him up, and then return
12 him to his cell, but they never said Rasevic or -- they never told Rasevic
13 or Todovic or Krnojelac about it. And I know other guards who kept a
14 guard during the night and then reported to their superiors, to Rasevic,
15 in the morning, as to who was taken out for work, where everybody has
16 gone. They would explain in their reports what had gone on during the
17 night and if they had a problem they addressed it to him.
18 Q. How do you know that? Did you actually overhear such
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Where were you and where was it discussed among the guards and Mr.
23 A. Well, for instance, I overheard such things several times. Once
24 when I was at this reception desk when you enter the administration
25 building, right there, I would stand there for 10 or 15 minutes. Rasevic
1 was always around this reception area and he would walk about the
2 courtyard. And I noticed that whenever a problem would appear, they would
3 always approach him, and they would always explain to him what had
4 happened. Yes, this and this person was involved, such-and-such thing
5 happened, et cetera.
6 Q. And do you know if Mr. Rasevic or the senior staff had regular
8 A. We inside often discussed this, and as I said, we referred to them
9 as number 1, number 2, number 3, number 4, number 5, and I think Relja
10 Goljanin was number 5, by rank. And, for instance, when I was working in
11 the metalwork shop, Relja would disappear. I would ask, "Where is Relja?
12 I need him," and the answer would be, "They're at a meeting now." And
13 then there's another story we heard from Relja and from this Dule, was
14 that each month at the KP Dom they had a staff meeting on a monthly basis,
15 and the meeting was attended by those five people, perhaps more, I don't
16 know, I never attended myself.
17 Q. Do you know if Mr. Krnojelac had to report to a command outside of
18 the KP Dom?
19 A. I personally -- when you said, "Do you know," I understand that I
20 have to be convinced of that, that I saw it myself, but my conviction
21 comes from the stories of other people, I mean among the Serbs, from
22 Rasevic to other people. I know that Krnojelac had to -- I don't know if
23 he had to, but he sent reports and received orders. Some man Pavlovic
24 told me about this, and he said that actually Krnojelac is the man through
25 which the command sends its orders as to what is going to be done at the
1 KP Dom. I cannot corroborate this with documents, but I can corroborate
2 it with the stories of people who are still alive today.
3 Q. Who is this Pavlovic that you mentioned? Who is he?
4 A. Pavlovic, that's a man who also worked at the metalwork shop, and
5 I often had discussions with him. Before the war, he used to work at the
6 KP Dom too, and he was -- he worked at the boiler room, which I maintained
7 and which I tried to fix. And he was the one who was helping me do this,
8 and he gave me instructions.
9 Q. And what did he tell you about -- exactly what did he tell you
10 about the relationship between Mr. Krnojelac and the outside command? Do
11 you recall details?
12 A. I can only tell you a short story. For instance, when Sefko Kubat
13 was talking to me, I was saying that it's a shame this man was at the KP
14 Dom -- has been at the KP Dom for two years and he's obviously going to
15 die, so why don't they let him out to see his family, and die with them?
16 And I heard that a request was made to the command that he be released to
17 the hospital, and the command refused. And for the second time they
18 sought help from the command, and from what I heard from Pavlovic, Miso, I
19 concluded that this man could not be taken to the hospital at the request
20 of the KP Dom because the command wouldn't allow it, if that answers your
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is a Milan Pavlovic listed
23 under the employees as number 62, and it is actually marked also that he
24 is in the metalwork shop.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
2 Q. You said that Pavlovic told you that actually Krnojelac is the man
3 through which the command sends its orders as to what is going to be done
4 at the KP Dom. Is that what he said? Did he give some more details?
5 A. Tell me, what details? I'll try to give them.
6 Q. I was not present, Mr. Lisica. Did Mr. Pavlovic give more details
7 to this or was it just his opinion? Did he ...
8 A. I just told you a minute ago. This was related to Sefko Kubat.
9 They asked the warden that this man be hospitalised because he had been
10 there for a year and a half. And this couldn't be done because the
11 command wouldn't allow it. I don't know what you mean when you say
13 And I gave you another example. When I made a request to be
14 released, this request was also taken, forwarded to the command, and I
15 heard a lot of stories from Miso Pavlovic, Rasevic, Relja, and other
16 guards, to the effect that our fate depends on the command and they only
17 execute orders. And I didn't really know how things worked, so I showed
18 more bluster than necessary and then they explained to me that it's the
19 command which decides. So they made it seem like they were not doing
20 anything up there; it's the command which decides and they only obey. I
21 was locked up by the Serbs. I know there are good and bad people among
22 them, but I ...
23 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. The interpreter's correction. They
24 are all the same to me, but I know as well that we're all the same to
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
2 Q. Did the members of the outside command come to the KP Dom or did
3 Mr. Krnojelac go to them? Do you know that?
4 A. I didn't see those big fish at the KP Dom, not the leaders.
5 Whether he had been to see them, I can only give you my opinion as to
6 that. I suppose he had to go and they had meetings of some kind, or maybe
7 they communicated by telephone. I wouldn't be able to tell you with any
8 degree of certainty.
9 Q. Did any of the Serb employees, especially Mr. Relja, did they ever
10 mention that Mr. Krnojelac went to the command? Do you recall anything?
11 A. I think Savo Todovic often went to the command, and I seem to
12 remember when I handed in this letter, this request of mine, I was told it
13 would be taken to the command by the warden, Krnojelac, or it would be
14 taken by Savo Todovic. I remember that Relja mentioned some meetings.
15 For instance, when we would ask, "Where is the warden," when we wanted to
16 make a complaint or ask about something, we would get the answer that he
17 was at a meeting. What kind of meeting, I really can't tell you.
18 Q. Witness, you said that you were detained in the KP Dom until
19 October 1994. From the KP Dom, where were you taken for exchange?
20 A. We got onto a bus, went to Sarajevo, and in Sarajevo we were
21 exchanged at Vrbanja bridge. I wasn't, actually. My colleagues, my
22 comrades were exchanged, and I went to Kula.
23 Q. And how much later were you then exchanged? How long did you stay
24 in Kula?
25 A. Ten days, I think, after the exchange. I was exchanged ten days
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 after the exchange I've just mentioned.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the Prosecution would like to
3 enter the documents in the trial binders ID 323 and 323A, which confirm
4 the dates. And we also would like to enter the Exhibit -- the ID number
5 325, which is an ICRC document.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Bakrac?
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. That will be Exhibit 323.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt, please.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. They will be Exhibits P323, 323A and
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Can the usher please show the document
13 Exhibit 325 to the witness, because I have a question in relation to
14 this. Just put it in front of him, we don't need it on the ELMO. It's
15 the ICRC document.
16 Q. Mr. Lisica, I have one question in relation to this document. You
17 see in the middle of the document, it says, "Was notified as present on 30
18 August 1992." Were you actually visited by the ICRC on this date, August
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you tell us what happened on that day?
22 A. A delegation came in, together with the International Red Cross.
23 I remember this well. Slavko Koroman was there and there was an American
24 lady who started listing us, and she was taking down our names. Then one
25 of the guards came and said something to Slavko Koroman, and Slavko
1 Koroman ordered her directly that she must leave the KP Dom. She
2 objected, she protested. She sat down on a bed nearby. There was an
3 interpreter present there. And then he threatened her with the use of
4 force unless she complies, so she picked up her things and left.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are the questions of the
7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
8 Cross-examination. Mr. Vasic.
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Vasic:
11 Q. Good morning, sir.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. I would like to introduce myself. I am lawyer Vasic, one of the
14 Defence counsel of the accused Milorad Krnojelac.
15 Sir, during your examination-in-chief, you told us that sometime
16 around the 5th of April, 1992, soldiers who were from Foca asked you
17 whether you wanted to join them in their fighting.
18 A. I beg your pardon? Yes, yes, you're right. Please continue.
19 Q. Thank you, sir. I would only ask you to make a pause after my
20 question to let the interpreters finish interpreting my question, because
21 we're speaking the same language and it will create problems if we keep
22 exchanging questions and answers quickly.
23 If you have in front of you the transcript running on the monitor,
24 you can follow and start answering when the typing finishes.
25 A. I don't have it.
1 Q. Sir, on that occasion --
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Sir, when they asked you to join, did they tell you they were not
4 fighting against Muslims but for Yugoslavia?
5 A. Precisely, something to that effect. They were for Yugoslavia,
6 they were committed to Yugoslavia, and they were fighting for Yugoslavia,
7 and that's why they said they had put on those Yugoslav uniforms.
8 Q. Were those soldiers who were all from Foca and the environs?
9 A. In that group which I saw, all the men were my neighbours from
10 Foca and the environs.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you aren't waiting, I'm afraid, long enough
12 after the question. The interpreters are still trying to catch up with
13 you. You've now got the transcript running there. Just when you see the
14 typing finish, then you can answer.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
16 Q. Please tell me: You said in response to my learned friend's
17 question something about weapons left to you by your brother, who you
18 assume was a member of the SDA. Would he have received those weapons from
19 the SDA? Do you have any assumptions to that effect?
20 A. My brother, he used to spend time in a tavern which was visited by
21 most Muslims, and I gave you my assumption about that rifle which he had.
22 I think this rifle was inherited from my father, because my father
23 participated in that war in 1941. He was a fighting man, a veteran. And
24 I remember seeing my father's rifle when I was young. Whether it was that
25 rifle or not, I don't know.
1 Q. Can you tell me about the hand grenade which you handed over which
2 also belonged to your brother? Do you know where it came from, who your
3 brother received it from?
4 A. I really wouldn't know.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Did the soldiers ask you to go to the Isanovic
6 house and tell the people there to surrender?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On that occasion at the Isanovic house, were there Isanovic Amir,
9 Hamid Cajanic [phoen], and a person named Cedic, nicknamed Ekinda?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you have any knowledge that on the 6th of April,
12 1992, Muslim forces captured Donje Polje, and was this confirmed to you by
13 Witness FWS-54 from the list in front of you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. I would like to come back to the statement which you
16 gave to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor in 1999. In
17 that statement, did you state that when you were brought to Room 11 at the
18 KP Dom, Rasevic and Todovic entered the room and that on that occasion you
19 did not mention Mr. Krnojelac?
20 A. Well, about that, I didn't mention it, but you know what, I think
21 that Krnojelac was there. Maybe when I was giving the statement and now
22 when I'm testifying I fail to mention a name which is important to you,
23 but maybe it's not that important to me.
24 Q. Yes, sir, but none of the witnesses who were in Room 11 who
25 testified before this Court, none of them mentioned that Krnojelac came in
1 on that occasion together with Rasevic and Todovic.
2 A. Then I have to agree with them, because I agree that Rasevic and
3 Todovic were there on that occasion. And if they say Krnojelac wasn't,
4 then I agree with that.
5 Q. Thank you, sir.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, is it correct to say that, as the witness
7 has assumed, that they, those other witnesses told us he was not in the
8 room? Your question was simply they did not mention that he came into
9 the room. Now, you've got a concession from the witness which may have
10 been made on a misunderstood basis. I think it's important we get this
11 one sorted out.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 Q. Sir, do you allow for the possibility, then, that Mr. Krnojelac
14 did not enter together with Mr. Rasevic and Mr. Todovic into Room 11 at
15 the beginning of your detention?
16 A. In that statement, I said that Rasevic entered Room 11 and that
17 Rasevic made a speech. I also stated that Krnojelac was there. If other
18 people say that, then I say that way too, that is to say that Krnojelac
19 was not there, because I could not see any better than the rest.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. You talked about a person who wrote a request to
21 the command for your release. You said that this was Mr. Jasarevic. Is
22 that Mr. Atif Jasarevic?
23 A. Precisely, yes.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. You said that a person by the last name of
25 Damjanovic was in charge of your case and was supposed to resolve the
1 matter but then left the territory of Foca. Was this Mr. Damjanovic at
2 the military command? Do you know that?
3 A. Savo Todovic told me once that he was at the command then and that
4 he had taken over my case and that he had escaped to Pljevlje, that my
5 request had been thrown into the wastepaper basket. Therefore, he was at
6 the command.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. You have explained to us when you started to
8 work, and you said to us that you got cigarettes, when that was possible,
9 for your work. Tell me: At that time, was there a shortage of cigarettes
10 in Foca? Were cigarettes something that was really valuable at that time,
11 of course, for smokers?
12 A. You bet.
13 Q. Thank you. During your examination-in-chief, in response to my
14 learned friend's questions, you said that you worked on the establishment
15 of the Serb kitchen at the Hotel Zelengora. No, not at the Hotel
16 Zelengora; just at the Serb kitchen. Could you tell us what this Serb
17 kitchen was? What purpose did it serve at the time?
18 A. I often went to this hotel, and I saw refugees there, women, in
19 the hotel rooms up there. Since the kitchen indoors could not cater for
20 that large number of Serb people - there weren't any Muslims there - in
21 front of the hotel they had to have a big cauldron, and that's where a
22 large part of the Serb people ate. I don't know if there's anything else
23 I need to describe to you.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. I think that it is quite clear what this means.
25 You said that on that occasion you talked to Slavko Ivanovic, who had
1 weapons. Was he wearing a military uniform at that time too?
2 A. Slavko Ivanovic held an automatic rifle in his hands. His uniform
3 was -- well, that's the kind of guy he was. It was a blue one, like that
4 worn by airmen. I can translate this for you by the abbreviation RVPVO,
5 that is, the former Yugoslav air force.
6 Q. Does that mean the uniform of the air force and the anti-aircraft
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned a few minutes ago that you knew
10 that refugees were in Hotel Zelengora. Do you know whether Mr. Krnojelac,
11 together with his family, for a while lived in this hotel where refugees
12 were staying, after his house had burned down?
13 A. Once, I think it was in 1993, I kind of heard about that from his
14 son Dubravko or Jadranko - I don't know his real name, the one who
15 worked with me at the service shop - that he was there.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned that persons who were at the KP Dom
17 who had worked as guards earlier on, and persons who had other professions
18 but had nevertheless worked at the KP Dom, that at that time, all of them
19 worked as guards. Did these guards go to the front line as well while
20 they were on guard duty at the KP Dom? Do you know about that?
21 A. There were some who tried to shirk work, but they told me about it
22 themselves too.
23 Q. Thank you, sir. You mentioned that during one of the emergencies
24 around Gorazde, that you had to seek permission to go to the hospital to
25 work, and that you were picked up by Mr. Davidovic. Was he armed when he
1 came to pick you up?
2 A. I would like to have this clarified for me. Oh, Davidovic,
3 Milan. Yes, right. No.
4 Q. Thank you. Sir, when you were first detained in the isolation
5 cell because of the letter that you were carrying, and this was on the
6 order of Savo Todovic, and when you were released after a few days, did
7 the guard who was letting you go tell you that he was releasing you on
8 Savo Todovic's orders?
9 A. Yes. Yes. He worked -- well, yes. To make a long story short,
11 Q. Thank you, sir. You told us that once you complained about the
12 quantity of food and that Mr. Krnojelac was there. Was that at the
13 metalwork shop when you complained to him?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also said to us that then you got two slices of bread from
16 him. How come Mr. Krnojelac had bread at the metalwork shop, so how could
17 he give it to you then?
18 A. He went and fetched it.
19 Q. From the kitchen?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you. You told us that you worked at the metalwork shop as a
22 welder and that, inter alia, you also repaired exhaust pipes and did other
23 things that mechanics do. Also you said to us that Dragan Gagovic came to
24 you and that you repaired his exhaust pipe, that you welded the exhaust
25 pipe on his vehicle that had a hole in it. Can you tell us why you did
1 not weld the exhaust pipe on this Kedi vehicle that you say belonged to
2 the KP Dom?
3 A. I can tell you very briefly and clearly; because nobody gave it to
4 me to do it.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. As for the Zastava Kedi vehicle that you
6 mentioned, when you made a statement to the investigators of the Office of
7 the Prosecutor in 1999, did you say that, together with Mr. Zekovic, you
8 went to work at the metalwork shop and that a guard ordered the two of you
9 to clean up blood from the vehicle?
10 A. Yes. That's what I thought, because Zeka and I went together to
11 get the tools that would end up at the isolation cell. I thought that he
12 was also present with me while I was doing that. In the meantime, since
13 Zeka had survived, I asked him and he told me that he did not clean this.
14 Maybe I even did, he said, but I can't remember. So due to his statement,
15 I changed my statement. I put it the other way around, that I was
16 cleaning it by myself, and that is why the statement is a bit different.
17 Q. Thank you, sir. Can you tell me when you talked to Mr. Zekovic
18 about what you've just been telling us about?
19 A. When I talked to him?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Well, wait a minute. I think in Sarajevo, because we talked about
22 different things, about what we had experienced. I can't remember right
23 now when I talked to him. Maybe it was on the phone. I don't know.
24 Q. Can you tell us whether it was this year or last year, if you can
1 A. You know what, whatever year. When you do something, you cannot
2 make all your statements complete, because you forget things. That's a
3 simple reason. I can't remember right now when I talked to him. This
4 year? It wasn't this year. But we did make comments about that. I told
5 you that we were washing the car together, and he said, "Maybe we were,
6 maybe we weren't, and maybe I can't remember." So then when I made my
7 statement, I put him in, and that means -- well, it's not really
8 important. I didn't talk to him this year, so it could not have been this
10 Q. Have you not talked to him this year at all?
11 A. I don't think I've talked to him this year at all. I did talk to
12 him last year.
13 Q. Thank you, sir. Do you remember that you made a statement to the
14 centre for security in Sarajevo on the 18th of October, 1994, and that in
15 that statement you said that you and Zekovic went to the metalwork shop,
16 that you found the Zastava there, in which there was blood on the floor
17 and on the back door, and also that there was a coil of burnt wire there,
18 that after about an hour and a half, they returned you, and that after two
19 days you washed the vehicle by yourself and that it was bloodstained then
20 too, but the blood had been dried. Is that the statement you made?
21 A. If that's what it says there, then it was most probably so. I did
22 wash this blood. But since you're asking me this much, I mean, the
23 substance is true, that I washed blood, but now I cannot say everything
24 absolutely the same way, word for word. Sometimes I remember, sometimes I
25 don't. This was what, five years ago, seven years ago? Actually, I don't
1 see what the problem is there.
2 Q. The problem is these differences in the statements, on the one
3 hand; and on the other hand, Mr. Zekovic, in his statement, said that you
4 together saw a car that had already been washed and that only in the
5 grooves in the water there were some traces of blood; while another
6 witness, FWS-249, said that that morning when they went to the metalwork
7 shop to work at the metalwork shop, he only saw the washed car, and that
8 that was strange. The question is: What is true, if you compare all
9 these stories, or rather, what actually happened?
10 A. What is true is quite clear. When people see things, they don't
11 see everything the same, because they don't really dare look around very
12 much. This witness you mentioned, 249, the car was there, facing the
13 door, the metalwork shop, and he was going up there to work. And if you
14 look at this partially, then you cannot see properly. I personally washed
15 this, so I saw it. That is one thing.
16 Secondly, the lady that I made this statement to, she asked me
17 then how big the stain was, and then I had to think about what this stain
18 was like. And when I gave a statement in 1999, I only made a statement
19 that the Kedi was bloodstained. How much blood there was and whatever ...
20 Q. Thank you, sir.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, what value is there in putting what other
22 witnesses have said? Are you asking him to say they're lying? I don't
23 understand what the purpose of this sort of cross-examination is. We're
24 interested in what this witness says. If you say to him, "Well, another
25 witness has said something else," where does that get us? What is the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 value of this witness's views about the other witness?
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. However, my learned
3 friends from the Prosecution also mentioned other witnesses' statements to
4 witnesses who were testifying. I'm just trying to jog the witness's
5 memory. I see that the statements differ from the point of view of the
6 details that I have pointed out to him. I just wanted to see whether that
7 is all that the witness remembers, or can I perhaps jog his memory with
8 this kind of assistance.
9 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think you're using them in any way similar to
10 the way the Prosecution uses them, but I've drawn your attention to the
11 problem that I see with it. I see very little value in obtaining this
12 witness's views about the evidence another witness has given. Jogging
13 memory is one thing, but what you're doing is another. Anyway, you
14 proceed. I won't try to stop you from doing it except to suggest to you
15 that it's not getting us very far.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall move
17 on to a completely different question.
18 Q. Sir, you said that you had repaired the car of Mr. Krnojelac, a
19 Yugo 45 or a Yugo 55. Can you tell us what the difference is between a
20 Yugo 45 and a Yugo 55, on the one hand, and a Zastava 128 on the other
22 A. Sir, I'm familiar with all three vehicles, and I probably know
23 them better than you do. What the difference is is big. There's a big
24 difference among all three vehicles. All are automobiles, but whoever
25 knows about cars knows that there's a difference. For me to describe the
1 difference, that would be very hard, because a Mercedes and a Yugo 45 and
2 a Yugo 55 have a bumper, and they also have a fender. I don't know what
3 you're trying to say to me. I mean, what does this mean, what is the
4 difference? What is the difference between a Jetta and a Golf? You don't
5 know, right? Would you like to explain this to me?
6 Q. Sir, I know what the difference is between a Yugo 45, Yugo 55 and
7 a Zastava 128, however I'm afraid that the Trial Chamber and our
8 colleagues from the Prosecution don't know about these vehicles, but I
9 guess that you gave the gist of the matter in your answer, so thank you.
10 JUDGE HUNT: I hope you really mean that, Mr. Vasic. It means
11 nothing to me. The fact that they each have a fender and a bumper doesn't
12 really give me any idea of the distinction between them. If it was
13 suggested that one was larger than the other, one was a four-door and the
14 other one a two-door or one was a luxury car and another one was a more
15 ordinary car, that would help. If this is an important point, I can only
16 say that you may be satisfied, but I wouldn't be satisfied with that
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I precisely meant at the
19 beginning of the witness's answer, but I'll ask him now.
20 Q. Is Zastava 128 a larger vehicle than the Zastava [as interpreted]
21 45 and 55?
22 A. Their carrying capacities are completely the same. Do you mean
23 the volume of the vehicle or do you mean the carrying capacity of the
24 trunk or the interior?
25 Q. I mean the size of the chassis, sir.
1 A. Yugo 45 is slightly larger.
2 Q. From Zastava 128?
3 A. Yes. Zastava 128 exists in versions P or S, or do you mean a
4 plain 128?
5 Q. I mean Zastava 128.
6 A. What kind of mark is there?
7 Q. Plain. Is it larger than Yugo 45?
8 A. Zastava 128 did not exist in the KP Dom. There was a 128 PZ,
9 which we call the PZ, and there was a Yugo 45 and a 55.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Time for lunch.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE HUNT: We'll adjourn until 2.30.
13 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. Please take some water before we start. I saw that you were --
7 you had your hand -- you had your hand on the glass.
8 A. No, no, no. I just wanted to move it. I didn't want to drink any
10 Q. Thank you. As we were finishing this morning, I asked about the
11 differences between a Yugo and a Zastava 128, and we have to clarify
12 that. I have to ask you the following: Could an average person notice a
13 difference between a Yugo 55 and a Yugo 45 on the one hand, and a Zastava
14 128 on the other hand? In Yugoslavia, of course, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 A. Fine. There are four types of 128s: Standard, PS coupe --
16 however, as an average person, I couldn't be able to tell. An average
17 person cannot distinguish between them and a FUP [phoen]. However, I
18 could personally distinguish between all of those. As for the Yugo 45 and
19 Yugo 55, they only differ in terms of the engine power. However, the
20 configuration of the Yugo is the same.
21 As for the 128, well, to tell you the truth, it doesn't really
22 exist. It did not exist in Yugoslavia. There was a Fiat 128. So now
23 I've just been thinking. What do you mean by this 128, this Zastava 128?
24 I've never heard of a Zastava 128, for that matter. Because I was in
25 Zastava in Kragujevac, the factory there, and the 128, that is something
1 special. It was not manufactured for two years or so. You have to
2 explain this a bit better to me and then I'll tell you all about it.
3 There is a Fiat 128, this is a coupe, and there is a standard. They
4 differ in shape, not in terms of the engine. The engine is the same in
5 all three of them. And also the carburetor. One is an injection
6 carburetor and the other one is a solex [phoen].
7 Q. Thank you, sir. You talked about the prisoners' rooms in which
8 you were. Were there any chimneys in those rooms? Can you tell me?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you say to the investigator of the OTP that
11 on one occasion Mr. Mandzo, nicknamed Kelta, told you that Mitar Rasevic
12 had saved him by saying to the persons who were mistreating him that it
13 was the wrong Mandzo?
14 A. Kelta personally told me that, but I don't know where I made this
15 statement, because I made several statements on several occasions.
16 However, it's true that he said that, and I stand by it.
17 Q. Thank you. Did anyone tell you that Mr. Cedic, known as Ekinda,
18 was killed outside the KP Dom, outside the prison?
19 A. Ekinda personally told me that he had been beaten by the military
20 police, and that he was taken away and killed. Right. You are completely
21 right. I agree.
22 Q. Did Kruno Marinovic tell you that he had been beaten up before he
23 was brought to the KP Dom?
24 A. Yes. And it's curious. He told me that Velibor Ostojic had
25 beaten him up and that he had broken his jaw. It's true that he had a
1 broken jaw and he couldn't eat for three days, and he came to the KP Dom
2 with a broken jaw. I think it was the jaw.
3 Q. You mentioned to us today your conversation with Mr. Arso
4 Krnojelac. Could you please tell us where you had this conversation.
5 A. At the workshop. And once we had a conversation outside the KP
6 Dom, on the road to the hospital, along the Drina River. There was this
7 old warehouse of the KP Dom, for old trailers and vehicles.
8 Q. Can I please tell you once again to make a pause after my
9 questions, because the interpreters are hardly catching up.
10 A. I'm sorry. I forgot.
11 Q. Can you please tell us when you had this conversation with Arso
12 Krnojelac, if you remember.
13 A. I talked to Arso Krnojelac all the time during my stay at the
14 camp, but in terms of dates -- as for this story which is mentioned in my
15 statement, it could have happened in August, when he was telling me about
16 his brother. I wasn't alone then. There were other people present. I
17 can name the witnesses, if necessary.
18 Q. Can you please tell us: August which year?
19 A. 1992.
20 Q. Can you please tell us who else was present?
21 A. 249 and I believe Ekrem Zekovic.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us: Is it true that you told the
23 investigators of the OTP that the conditions at the KP Dom improved in
25 A. As for an official statement, a definitive yes or no, I probably
1 didn't, but in end 1993 the complete was changed, the complete management
2 changed. However, 1992 was the most -- the hardest of all. 1993 was also
3 bad, but less bad, and 1994 was easier.
4 Q. You told me that you overheard conversations between Rasevic and
5 Cedo Krnojelac. Was that in 1994?
6 A. I think so. Maybe in early May 1994. If we take the moment when
7 Sefko Kubat died, this could have been 10 or 15 days earlier.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know a person by the name of Muhidin Bibovic?
9 A. I know the name of Muhidin, but I don't know Bibovic.
10 Q. Do you know what happened to this Muhidin whom you know, what
11 became of him?
12 A. I don't know anything.
13 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me: On the day when you were
14 washing that car, when you were washing away the bloodstains at the
15 metalwork shop, was Relja Goljanin present there?
16 A. No, no, no, no. I don't think he was. As a matter of fact, while
17 I was doing the washing, not even a guard was present. Because while I
18 was returning the tools, the guard just showed me the car and said, "Wash
19 this," and then he went to the metalwork shop through his office, and then
20 perhaps an hour later he came back, after I had washed the car. And then
21 he returned me to the KP Dom.
22 Q. Could you please tell me: Was Relja Goljanin present at the
23 metalwork shop when Ekrem Zekovic escaped?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And was he present when there was a state of alert right
2 A. I think he was.
3 Q. Thank you. Today you said that you saw people beaten one evening
4 and, in response to my learned friend's question, you showed us the rooms
5 where it happened. Could you tell us if you could see any furniture in
6 those rooms; and if yes, what kind of furniture?
7 A. With the view I had, you couldn't see any furniture, but I do
8 remember seeing a table, a desk. With the view that I had, the desk was
9 under the window, and I couldn't see it. I don't know about the people
10 who were in that other room. If you take Room 11, it had two adjacent
11 rooms facing the area where this was happening. I was on one side and
12 they were on the other side. Maybe they could see it.
13 Q. Were you looking at an angle to the left or to the right?
14 A. If you're looking at the building, then to the right.
15 Q. Thank you. Since you said you know that there was a desk in that
16 room from before, do you know what else -- what other furniture there was
17 in that room?
18 A. You are asking too much. If somebody asked you how many people
19 there are in this room, you couldn't answer probably. I don't know. I
20 had entered those rooms 30 times, perhaps, because I was moving things in,
21 carrying stuff, and I did go into those rooms, but I wasn't really
22 looking. I didn't notice.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us: How many soldiers did the
24 beating on that occasion? How many soldiers beat the man that you saw?
25 A. In my evaluation, from what I saw, there could have been four or
1 five men who were moving around, and directly when Kruno was being beaten,
2 there were two of them; one was standing, the other was sitting, and then
3 they would change places.
4 Q. About Mr. Kuloglija, whom you mentioned, was he brought in on his
5 own, into this room and beaten?
6 A. I'll tell you: On that evening, and for a week before that, I
7 believe about 15 people went through that room. I wasn't exactly
8 counting, and I never even thought about making notes because I wasn't
9 even sure I was going to survive. I know that at that time they took away
10 between four and six people.
11 Q. So these people were not beaten together, but individually?
12 A. The men were taken away with short intervals.
13 Q. Thank you. You said you had heard about the finding of the bodies
14 of Soro Suljo and Rasim Kajgana. Do you know when they were taken away
15 from the KP Dom?
16 A. I think it must be a misinterpretation or maybe you're expressing
17 yourself wrongly. I never said that their corpses were found. I only
18 said that a man had seen them.
19 Q. Yes. You're right. You said that a man had seen them. Do you
20 know when they were taken away from the KP Dom?
21 A. If you want me to be more precise before this Court, then it was
22 during the season of plum picking. It could have been September,
23 therefore, and I had already emphasised in my statement that I had never
24 witnessed the taking away of people. I was always outdoors, outside.
25 They were usually taken out or taken away for exchanges between 10.00 and
2 Q. Thank you, sir. Have you ever said to Mr. Zekovic that you had
3 given information to the guards about his escape?
4 A. It's curious, but it's true, that I never discussed Zeko's escape
5 with him. After he was brought back, we never discussed it at all.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. And I have just one more question for you. You
7 said today that you hadn't spoken to Mr. Zekovic this year. However,
8 we've learned from our learned friends from the Prosecution that you did
9 speak to him immediately after his testimony here in The Hague.
10 A. No, it's not true. I spoke to him around the New Year, so if you
11 count the New Year to be part of this year, then I did speak to him this
13 Q. May I please ask my learned friend from the Prosecution to make it
14 indisputable that we did receive this information from the Prosecution
15 that Mr. Zekovic and Mr. Lisica did have a discussion after Mr. Zekovic's
16 testimony before this Court.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think I cannot -- I cannot
18 agree to what Mr. Vasic just said. I think it's best to read what I gave
19 them in a memo, what I was informed about. I think it's more correct to
20 simply read it than to have an interpretation of my --
21 JUDGE HUNT: If the communication was in writing, that's certainly
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
24 JUDGE HUNT: You tell us what you said.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I gave the following information to Mr. -- to
1 the Defence counsels:
2 "I would like to inform you about the following: During the
3 proofing session on the 31st of March, 2001, Mr. Lisica mentioned that he
4 and Mr. Zekovic occasionally speak to each other on the phone. On such
5 occasions, they do not speak about the events in the KP Dom. He spoke to
6 Mr. Zekovic recently, after Mr. Zekovic had testified. They did not speak
7 about the contents of the testimony, and they did not speak about the
8 events in the KP Dom."
9 JUDGE HUNT: Can you remind us: When did Mr. Zekovic give
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: We have to check.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. I'm glad you can't remember it either.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: February the 21st he started, and he finished
14 on the 12th of March.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think that tells us everything we need to
17 Mr. Vasic, you can proceed, if you wish.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
19 Q. Mr. Lisica, thank you very much for your answers.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no further
22 JUDGE HUNT: Any re-examination?
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Just on one or two matters.
24 Re-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
25 Q. First of all with the last -- to start with the last. As you had
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 told us after the question of Mr. Vasic, you told us that you kept in
2 contact with Mr. Zekovic and that you talked with him about the car, the
3 bloodstains in the car, and you said you talked to him in Sarajevo about
4 it. Were you in Sarajevo at that time or was he in Sarajevo? Do you
6 A. I remember that perfectly well. When I got out after ten days --
7 I think he was the one who got out first. You see, I forget such things.
8 I even forgot the people who were with me together those ten days. We sat
9 together and we told stories, and we discussed the matter of that car. He
10 told me -- I remember we were on our way to collect some material for
11 fences. He said, "Do you remember we washed --" I said, "Do you
12 remember how we washed that car?" And he said, "How come? I don't
13 remember that." And I said, "How come you don't remember? We did that
14 together." So what actually happened: Since we had left for work
15 together, it means that he must have been taken back to his room, and the
16 way it seems now, I must have done this job alone. And when I was giving
17 my statement, I must have been off the mark. When you give statements,
18 you forget things or you describe them not quite accurately. If I had,
19 for instance, to speak about the same thing in three months, I would tell
20 a different story. At least, my mind is not the type which could repeat
21 everything word for word. Maybe at the time when I was giving the
22 statement I was convinced that he was with me. Maybe I was even wrong
23 about where the stains were. If somebody asks me what kind of stain you
24 saw on that Kedi, I have to stop and think. I have to rewind the tape, so
25 to speak.
1 It's difficult, especially if you're looking for precision.
2 It's difficult for me to achieve that. I'm not very educated. I don't
3 know how educated people would fare here, but I'm not that kind of man.
4 It's possible that I gave two different descriptions in two different
5 statements, but the point is, I did wash that car. I don't know how big
6 the stain was, this big or that big. Did Zeka wash it with me or didn't
7 he? He isn't sure himself. I wasn't a free man at the time. And even if
8 we are watching the same film and then we discuss it later, we cannot
9 agree what actually happened in the film. How can you explain that? I
10 don't know why you are doing this to me here.
11 Q. Witness --
12 JUDGE HUNT: But you are being asked a very simple question. You
13 are being asked: Were you in Sarajevo or was Mr. Zekovic in Sarajevo when
14 you discussed this matter?
15 A. Yes, but I wanted to explain it a little regarding this Kedi.
16 Yes, I was in Sarajevo. I hadn't even left for (redacted) when we
17 discussed this bit precisely.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
19 Q. Yes. If I understand you correctly, you both were in Sarajevo and
20 it was rather shortly after your release.
21 A. Yes, precisely. And we were discussing it, disagreeing: Was it
22 or wasn't it.
23 Q. Yes. And according to what you think, he was with you, but you
24 may be wrong at this point; is it what you say? You know that you washed
25 it, that you are sure of; and about Mr. Zekovic, you are not sure of. Is
1 that your statement?
2 JUDGE HUNT: Is that his evidence, I think --
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
4 Q. Yes. Is this your evidence?
5 A. Yes, precisely.
6 Q. And let me actually refer to the next similar situation we have
7 here. You said at the beginning of your testimony and also when Mr. Vasic
8 questioned you, you said that you think on that first occasion when Mr.
9 Rasevic and Mr. Todovic came to Room 11, Mr. Krnojelac was with them, and
10 when Mr. Vasic pointed out that other detainees did not confirm this, you
11 said, "I agree." How do we have to understand that? What do you
12 remember? Do you still think that Mr. Krnojelac was together with the
13 other two, but you are not sure, or do you now remember he was not there?
14 How do we have to understand your evidence?
15 A. When they came into the room, all of us inside were very
16 depressed, and I was somewhere in the back of the room. And being
17 depressed as I was, I didn't really see whether there were four of them,
18 five of them, or three. I remember they were guards. I remember
19 Rasevic. They were all together. So what happened later? When these
20 people left, we discussed it between us, and if the majority says Rasevic
21 was there, others say he wasn't, it's difficult to say. I'm here to say
22 what I saw with my own eyes. Sometimes it's possible to tell a lie even
23 if you say what you saw yourself. I don't know. I'm not sure. I thought
24 that he was there simply because later I found out that those were the
25 leading people in the KP Dom, and I thought he was among them.
1 Q. Yes. And just another matter in relation to your contact with Mr.
2 Zekovic. Are you aware that he testified before you? Are you aware of
3 the fact that he came here and testified?
4 A. I was informed, but not by Zeka himself. I was informed by other
5 people who told me, and they told me about Zeko and about a number of
6 other people, but I didn't hear it directly from him. I spoke to Zeko,
7 perhaps it might have been two or seven days after the New Year. I think
8 he called me to wish me Happy New Year. We are nowadays scattered all
9 about the Western Europe and United States. I think I had tried to call
10 him two or three times around the New Year, and finally it was he who
11 reached me.
12 As for knowledge that he had testified here, I seem to have heard
13 even that he testified here and then went back home and then returned.
14 That's the information I got from his relatives.
15 Q. Does it mean you tried to call Mr. Zekovic but spoke only to
16 relatives, or what do you mean?
17 A. I wanted to give Zeko a call simply because we regularly speak to
18 each other as friends at regular intervals, and as for what I've mentioned
19 just now, this man from his family called me, and he spoke to me about
20 this and that, and among other things he mentioned Zeko, that he was even
21 going to go to court and he even said that this public Prosecutor had been
22 there to visit him. And it's absolutely not true that I specially called
23 his family to find out about -- these are camp stories. We discuss the
24 experiences we've been through, all that we have survived.
25 Q. Witness, we are not arguing that you are calling him to find out
1 about his testimony. The question is only if you knew about the testimony
2 and who told you about it.
3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these are all the questions.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, sir, for giving evidence. You are now
6 free to leave. We are grateful to you for having come here to give that
8 Now, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, who have we left? 250, is it?
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, and this witness will be
10 led by my colleague.
11 Your Honour, and this witness has protective measures.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE HUNT: Before you go, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, is there any
15 progress in the medical examinations?
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Your Honour, we received a document
19 from our expert today, but it is in B/C/S language, and it is 13 pages
20 long and we have -- at the moment we do not know what is in there. We
21 have someone on it working now, so I think at the evening, this evening,
22 we will know what is actually the result of the examination. But at the
23 moment, I have no idea.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Right. And Mr. Bakrac, is your expert giving more
25 than the report that's already been given to the Prosecution?
1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I got the expert
2 opinion of our expert and I gave it for translation. And during the
3 break, just before I got in here, I found out that this expert opinion has
4 already been translated, but I haven't seen it yet. I'll know by the end
5 of the day. That is, that expert opinion. I don't know about anything in
6 addition to that. As for the expert opinion of the Prosecutor's expert,
7 we haven't got that document at all yet.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, let me add to that: I think
9 there is a misunderstanding. We did not receive the report of the expert
10 of the Defence. We only received the expert -- the expertise of our
11 expert, and she did not include it.
12 JUDGE HUNT: But she received it?
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, she received it, but she did not include
14 it, so we have only an expertise from our expert.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, no doubt you can let the
16 Prosecution have a copy directly. That will solve that particular
17 problem, and they can give you a copy of the document which is being
18 translated. That seems to me to be the best way of dealing with this, and
19 we're at least a bit further forward.
20 Have we got the witness? Is this a voice -- all right. Well,
21 we'll adjourn -- before we adjourn, the pseudonym document for Witness 250
22 will be Exhibit P450, and it is under seal. We'll adjourn for a few
23 moments, hopefully, I think, for a few moments, whilst the voice
24 distortion apparatus can be put into operation.
25 --- Break taken at 3.07 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 3.11 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, will you stand up, please, and make the solemn
4 declaration in the document which is being shown to you by the usher.
5 WITNESS: FWS-250
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
8 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Please sit down, sir.
10 Mr. Smith.
11 MR. SMITH: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
12 Examined by Mr. Smith:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Witness, could you look at the piece of
14 paper in front of you and tell the Court whether your name and date of
15 birth appears at the top of that piece of paper.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And does your professional occupation also appear on that piece of
18 paper, below your name?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And below your professional occupation, there are some other
21 people's names with numbers alongside. If in your testimony you wish to
22 refer to those names, could you not use their names but the numbers
23 alongside of them. Do you understand that?
24 A. I understand.
25 Q. Witness, what is your ethnicity?
1 A. Muslim.
2 Q. And before the war, in April 1992, did you live in the town of
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were you married with children at that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And were you also working at that time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Before the war, were you a member of any political party?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And were you a member of any active army unit?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you have a weapon? This is before the war.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, on the 10th of April, before the war -- on the 10th of April,
16 1992, did you go to work?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Smith, I understand that this witness is being
19 called to answer a particular matter that arose in the answer to another
20 witness, or an answer which another witness gave, and he was being called
21 solely to deal with that issue. Now, do we have to go through all of
22 this? Put him in the position where he can give evidence about whatever
23 it was, by leading him, and then let's get on with the evidence. I think
24 we've got enough about who was arrested and what the circumstances were at
25 the time of their arrests.
1 MR. SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. We can move to the KP Dom if --
2 JUDGE HUNT: I think it might be a very good idea.
3 MR. SMITH:
4 Q. Witness, on the 17th of April, 1992, were you in the Livade camp
5 in the town of Foca?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And were you, along with other Muslim detainees in that camp, were
8 you taken to the KP Dom?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. About how many detainees from the Livade camp were taken to the KP
11 Dom on that day?
12 A. About 120 prisoners.
13 Q. And were all the prisoners Muslim, of Muslim ethnicity?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you arrived at the camp on the 17th of April, 1992. What day
16 did you finally leave the KP Dom in Foca?
17 A. On the 16th -- no. On the 6th of October, 1994.
18 Q. So you were at the camp for about two and a half years?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever interrogated by
21 anyone there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember who interrogated you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And who was that?
1 A. Vojo Starovic, Zoran Vladicic.
2 Q. And about what time were you interrogated? About what month?
3 A. The month of May.
4 Q. And was this in 1992?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what questions were you asked by these interrogators?
7 A. He asked me for weapons. He asked me which party I belonged to,
8 where I worked before, and what was my role in the party.
9 Q. And after these questions were asked, did either of the
10 interrogators tell you why you were detained at the KP Dom?
11 A. No.
12 Q. For the two and a half years that you were at the KP Dom, were you
13 ever told by the authorities there why you were detained?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And who told you why you were detained?
16 A. In the kitchen where I worked, the guards who were cooks, Serbs.
17 Q. And what did they say to you in relation to why you were detained
18 at the KP Dom?
19 A. Because I'm a Muslim.
20 Q. Whilst you were at the KP Dom, were you ever beaten?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many times were you beaten whilst you were at the KP Dom? On
23 how many occasions?
24 A. Twice.
25 Q. On the first time that you were beaten, who beat you?
1 A. Burilo.
2 Q. And Burilo, was he a guard at the KP Dom?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And why were you beaten by Burilo?
5 A. I brought a radio from a hospital to the KP Dom. I was not
6 familiar with the law concerning prisoners.
7 Q. And this radio, did you obtain it whilst you were working outside
8 of the KP Dom but still detained there?
9 A. Yes. I was detained at the KP Dom (redacted)
10 (redacted). I got it from friends and I brought it into the KP Dom.
11 Q. And what month and what year were you beaten by this guard named
13 A. I can't remember the date. I think it was sometime in the month
14 of June 1992.
15 Q. And you explained why you were beaten, the reason being that you
16 had brought a radio into the KP Dom. Can you tell the Court how you were
17 beaten on that day?
18 A. [Microphone not activated] -- look for the radio. I had to give
19 it before entering the isolation cell. He beat me with his hands and
20 feet. He kicked me into the cell.
21 Q. And who discovered -- who from the KP Dom staff discovered that
22 you had brought this radio into the prison?
23 A. I'm not sure how come they knew the actual situation, how come I
24 had a radio.
25 Q. Before you were beaten, did anyone speak to you about the rules in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 relation to bringing radios into the KP Dom?
2 A. No. I was told about that after this had occurred. I was told
3 about all the things that were forbidden to me.
4 Q. And who told you about these rules? Was it another detainee or
5 staff at the KP Dom, or someone else?
6 A. Burilo, who had beat me. He said to me, "No more television,
7 radio, newspapers, and all the rest."
8 Q. Did you receive any injuries from this beating? Did it cause any
9 bruises or bleeding or any other sort of injury?
10 A. Yes. I was bleeding then in the isolation cell.
11 Q. You said that Burilo beat you in front of the isolation cell. Was
12 that the only place that he beat you, or did he beat you in other parts of
13 the KP Dom as well?
14 A. No. Only in front of the entrance into the isolation cell,
15 because I was in the room right in front of the isolation cell. It was
16 called number 16.
17 Q. When you say that you were beaten in front of the isolation cell,
18 was that on the ground floor or a first or second or third floor?
19 A. Ground floor.
20 Q. And that isolation cell, was that in the building, in one of the
21 buildings where Muslim detainees were kept?
22 A. Yes. Yes. The same entrance.
23 Q. Was anyone else beaten with you at that time by Burilo, or were
24 you beaten by yourself?
25 A. No. I was the only one.
1 Q. And after you were beaten, were you placed in the isolation cell?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when you arrived in the cell, were there any other detainees
4 in it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what other detainees were in the cell? Who were they?
7 A. Suad Dervisevic, Dzamalija Juso, and Zaim. I don't know his last
8 name. He's from Tjentiste.
9 Q. And did you know Suad Dervisevic from before the war?
10 A. Yes. We were schoolmates.
11 Q. And Juso Dzamalija, did you know him from before the war?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you were placed in the isolation cell, did you notice
14 anything about each of those people, whether in fact they had any injuries
15 or whether or not they were perfectly healthy?
16 A. They had been beaten. They had injuries. Juso Dzamalija lost
17 conscious -- regained consciousness, lost consciousness again.
18 Q. What -- do you remember the particular injuries that Juso
19 Dzamalija had when he was placed -- when you were placed in the isolation
21 A. I cannot remember. It was night-time.
22 Q. Did all of the other detainees in this cell, did they all have
23 injuries, or was it just one or two of them?
24 A. [Microphone not activated] -- isolation cell number 2. That is to
25 say that we were all beaten and we all had lighter injuries.
1 Q. When you arrived at the cell, did Juso Dzamalija tell you how he
2 was beaten and who beat him?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And Suad Dervisevic, did he tell you who beat him and how he was
6 A. He had been brought from Trebinje. He was beaten all the time.
7 But I don't know.
8 Q. And Zaim --
9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. I am
10 following all of this because of the protective measures, but I heard the
11 witness say he was beaten all the time, and here it says he was beaten all
12 the time while he was travelling from Trebinje. That could be
13 misinterpreted, as it was in the KP Dom.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, it is very difficult to hear
15 the witness.
16 THE COURT: The interpreters have just said they're having trouble
17 hearing the witness, but what do you say he did say?
18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] That he had been beaten all the time
19 as he was coming from Trebinje, and on the basis of the transcript, one
20 might conclude that he was beaten all the time when he came into the KP
22 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, thank you. I think we've now got
23 it clear.
24 Have you moved the witness closer to the microphone? Thanks.
25 Would you mind speaking up, please, sir. The interpreters are
1 having difficulty hearing you.
2 MR. SMITH:
3 Q. Did you know whether these three people in the isolation cell,
4 whether they had been beaten inside the KP Dom or whether they had been
5 beaten before they arrived?
6 A. From the very moment of their arrest and until they were brought
7 to the isolation cell.
8 Q. You said that Juso Dzamalija had lost consciousness. Was that
9 whilst you were in the isolation cell with him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you or any of the others in the isolation cell receive any
12 medical treatment for the injuries that you had and the ones that they
14 A. No.
15 Q. How many beds were in this isolation cell?
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the answer.
17 JUDGE HUNT: Would you get him to repeat it.
18 MR. SMITH:
19 Q. Witness, if you could just repeat your answer. They couldn't hear
20 you, the interpreters.
21 A. One bed.
22 Q. And after you arrived in the isolation cell with the other three,
23 did you sleep that night?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And where did you sleep?
1 A. On the floor of the isolation cell.
2 Q. Sometime during that night, were you woken up?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when you woke up, what did you discover?
5 A. Juso Dzamalija was hanged. He was hanging from a pipe of the
6 water drain and he was lying on the makeshift toilet, which is actually a
7 hole in the ground.
8 Q. When you say "he was hanging from a pipe of the water drain," what
9 was he hanging by?
10 A. It's used to flush this squat-down toilet. It's the device for
11 flushing. It releases water to flush the toilet, this squat-down toilet.
12 Q. And did he have anything tied around his neck?
13 A. A belt.
14 Q. When you discovered him, was he alive or dead?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE HUNT: That might need some elucidation, Mr. Smith.
17 MR. SMITH:
18 Q. I assume you meant that, when you discovered him, he was dead.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know how, how he died? Do you believe that he took his own
22 A. I can't give you an exact answer, because there was no autopsy,
23 there was nothing.
24 Q. What happened to his body?
25 A. We carried it out, wrapped in a blanket, and loaded it onto a car
1 within the compound.
2 Q. Do you know who the guard was on shift that night outside of the
3 solitary confinement cells?
4 A. No, I can't remember.
5 Q. And who carried the body outside of the cells and towards the car?
6 A. Suad Dervisevic, myself, and Zaim.
7 Q. Once the body was discovered, did you call the guards?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what did they say with the situation that they were confronted
11 A. I cannot explain that to you. I don't remember it.
12 Q. Did the guards help you take the body to the car?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And whose car was it that Juso Dzamalija's body was placed in?
15 A. I don't know about that.
16 Q. Do you know whether it was an official car or whether it was a
17 private car with no apparent markings on it?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Other than the three of you who took his body to the car, did
20 anyone else assist with the placing of Juso Dzamalija in the car or in
21 finding out what happened to him? Was any medical treatment sought, even
22 though at that stage he was dead?
23 A. I don't remember that.
24 Q. And how long was Juso Dzamalija's body in this cell before you
25 took it to the car?
1 A. I don't know; I was asleep.
2 Q. After you discovered that Juso Dzamalija had died, how long had he
3 been in the cell before you took him to the car?
4 A. It was not even 20 minutes before the guards came in to unlock the
6 Q. Was any inquiry made in relation to Juso Dzamalija's death? Were
7 any questions asked of you about how he died?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And when you first arrived in the cell, did Juso Dzamalija tell
10 you anything about how he was feeling before he died?
11 A. No.
12 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, in relation to the injuries received by
13 Juso Dzamalija when the witness arrived in the cell, he's referred to in
14 the schedules in B-17, B-17, and in relation to the guard Burilo it's P3,
15 the list number 56.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.
17 MR. SMITH:
18 Q. Witness, you mentioned that you were beaten on two occasions. Can
19 you tell us what happened on the second occasion that you were beaten.
20 A. Yes. I worked, after the solitary confinement, on the upper side
21 of the KP Dom. I was working with concrete, making ducts in the
22 concrete. I was very hungry. I was begging the guard to let us go and
23 have supper before time, because I was entitled to an extra meal. Since I
24 was much too hungry, when my room left for dinner, I joined the group
25 again. The guard saw me when I was collecting my meal, and he didn't say
1 anything, at least then, but afterwards, when we were taken back to our
2 rooms, he locked me in the room and told me to wait. Jasmin Sudar was
3 there with me. He's a man who had worked with me that whole day. They
4 beat us badly that time, breaking our bones, and after that, we were
5 locked up in solitary confinement again.
6 Q. Was this beating after Juso Dzamalija's death?
7 A. Later.
8 Q. And about how much later? About how many weeks after that?
9 A. It was a month's interval.
10 Q. And did both you and Mr. Sudar, did both of you receive two meals
11 that day?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who was the person or the people that beat you up on that
14 occasion, yourself and Jasmin Sudar?
15 A. I can't tell you. I didn't know any guards. It was at the
16 beginning, and we got to know the guards only later, but then we got to
17 know them very well.
18 Q. And you mentioned that when you were beaten, that bones were
19 broken. Were bones in fact broken? Can you describe further the injuries
20 that you got?
21 A. That's not exactly what I meant. I didn't mean literally breaking
22 our bones. They punched out our teeth, they would punch us in the
23 stomach, kick us. They would punch us in the stomach, expelling the air
24 from our lungs. They would beat us badly.
25 Q. And these beatings, did they occur in front of the isolation cell?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is this in front of the same isolation cell that you were
3 previously in with Juso Dzamalija?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many people beat you on that occasion?
6 A. I can't tell you exactly how many. I was so scared, and in such
7 situations you only think about whether you're going to survive.
8 Q. Did this beating cause any cuts or bleeding?
9 A. Nose bleeding, yes. After a year passed, I didn't suffer any
10 other consequences.
11 Q. And did you notice the injuries that Jasmin Sudar received on
12 that day?
13 A. We were both beaten approximately the same. We had roughly the
14 same injuries.
15 Q. And after you were beaten, you were placed into the isolation
16 cell; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And how long did you stay in that cell for after you were beaten?
19 A. The next morning, I went straight to work, immediately.
20 Q. And after the first -- going back to the first time that you were
21 placed in the isolation cell with Juso Dzamalija, how long after he died
22 were you kept in that cell?
23 A. Four days.
24 MR. SMITH: If I can ask the usher to put on the overhead
25 projector Prosecution Exhibit 6/2A, which is the plan of the KP Dom.
1 Q. Witness, this is a plan of the ground floor of the detention
2 facilities which the Muslim detainees were kept in the KP Dom. If you
3 can look at the plan. Are you familiar with the layout, and would you be
4 able to locate the place where the isolation cells were that you were kept
5 on both occasions?
6 A. Yes. I know that drawing and I can point the place on it. This
7 is the room where I was. This is the command where the guards were. This
8 room here is solitary cell, solitary cells 1, 2, and 3. Actually, I was
9 in solitary cell number 2.
10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness was pointing to --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Smith.
12 MR. SMITH: Thank you. The witness was pointing to solitary cell
13 2, on the right-hand side of the right wing of the KP Dom.
14 Q. Witness, was the cell that you were placed in, was that -- was the
15 window facing the front or the yard of the KP Dom, or was it facing the
16 rear, the rear yard of the KP Dom?
17 A. The windows faced the courtyard. They actually looked towards the
19 Q. If I can ask you to look at the plan again. Can you have a look
20 closely at the solitary confinement cells on the right-hand side. And
21 look again as to which location you believe you were kept on those both
23 A. I was in solitary cell number 2. That's the one. The windows
24 looked into the courtyard.
25 Q. Witness, you said that the windows looked into the courtyard, and
1 I think you also said earlier that the windows looked towards the
2 canteen. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is true.
4 Q. And on that plan, can you point towards the canteen?
5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I know that it's
8 difficult for the interpreters, it's difficult for me too, but the witness
9 didn't say it's true. He said, "It's the same." And I see him nodding in
11 JUDGE HUNT: Well, --
12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] "For me too," is what he meant.
13 JUDGE HUNT: You may one day have to explain to me the difference,
14 but anyway, we now have an agreement from the witness.
15 Yes, Mr. Smith.
16 MR. SMITH:
17 Q. How many solitary confinement cells were there at the KP Dom when
18 you were there?
19 A. Three on the lower side, looking towards the kitchen; three on the
20 upper side, where I was, facing the outer wall -- sorry, the upper part of
21 the wall of the KP Dom.
22 Q. And you were in the cell facing towards the kitchen; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. SMITH: Your Honours, I ask that the witness be shown
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 photograph 78, which is from P18. The ERN number is 00407518.
2 Q. Perhaps if you could put on the ELMO the bottom photograph.
3 I've just been corrected, Your Honour. The photograph number is
5 Q. Witness, looking at this photograph, is this familiar to you?
6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise for interrupting
9 frequently, but I've just checked the transcript again. The witness had
10 said cell number 2, but our colleague, Mr. Smith, did not explain for the
11 transcript what the witness had pointed with a pointer on the previous
12 photograph. I think it should be reflected in the transcript that he
13 indicated cell number 2 on the rear side of the building.
14 JUDGE HUNT: I think that's the only one that bears that number,
15 but anyway, I think we can all say it's certainly what he did do.
16 MR. SMITH: That's agreed.
17 Q. Witness, looking at the photograph --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. SMITH:
20 Q. Witness, looking at the photograph on the screen, is that familiar
21 to you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what does that show you?
24 A. Solitary cell number 1, solitary cell number 2, where I was, and
25 solitary cell number 3, from which you can see nothing. As for solitary
1 cell number 2, it's facing the window. You can see the courtyard and the
2 entrance into the kitchen, both entrances. From solitary cell number 1,
3 you can see also the entire courtyard, the entrance into the canteen,
4 where the Muslims ate on one side, on the lower side, and the Serbs ate
5 on the upper side. And you can see all the way --
6 Q. Witness, I'll just slow you down for one moment. The questions
7 and answers need to be translated and you're speaking a little bit fast
8 for the translation. So I'll just have to record what you have pointed
9 out, for the record.
10 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness pointed to cell number 2 and
11 then brought the pointer across to the right-hand side towards the windows
12 when he stated that the windows faced towards the canteen.
13 Q. Witness, on the first occasion when you were placed in the
14 isolation cell, was that cell number 2?
15 A. Number 2.
16 Q. And on the second occasion that you were placed in the cell, after
17 you were beaten for having two meals, was that also cell number 2?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. SMITH: If I can ask the usher to place photograph 80, which
20 is numbered 00407521 from Exhibit P18, onto the overhead projector.
21 Q. Witness, is that photograph familiar to you?
22 A. Yes. That's the cell with the toilet.
23 Q. Was a toilet similar to this in the cell where you were kept when
24 Juso Dzamalija died?
25 A. Yes. They're all the same.
1 Q. And looking at that toilet, you mentioned that Juso Dzamalija hung
2 himself from some sort of mounting coming off the wall. Can you indicate
3 on that photograph where Juso Dzamalija was hanging himself from?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Can you place the pointer on the photograph to your right?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SMITH: Your Honour, the witness indicates the tap or lever on
8 the left-hand side of the photograph.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Can you tell us how far that was above the ground?
10 MR. SMITH:
11 Q. How far was that above the ground, Witness?
12 A. One metre.
13 Q. And when you found Juso Dzamalija's body, how was he sitting or
14 standing when you came into the cell, into the toilet area?
15 A. Many were thrown out behind those solders at this location,
16 here. So the body and the legs were sort of pushed down the squat-down
17 toilet. They were inside.
18 Q. When you saw him, was he seated or standing?
19 A. No. Just a couple of -- just a short distance further and he
20 would be sitting.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think we'll come back tomorrow morning.
22 We'll adjourn. We resume again at 9.30 tomorrow.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.02 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of
25 April 2001, at 9.30 a.m.