Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6076

1 Tuesday, 15 May 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Bakrac.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 First of all, I have good news for you. Our witnesses got the

12 plane this morning, and I think they must have landed in Amsterdam by now,

13 so we're going to have witnesses, as planned, until the end of this week.

14 JUDGE HUNT: That's very good news. Is there some more?

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. We'll just continue

16 examining this witness.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. You proceed.

18 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 Examined by Mr. Bakrac.

22 Q. Good morning, sir.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Yesterday we had a problem, didn't we, with your intention of

25 answering questions very quickly. Again, I beseech you, can you see the

Page 6077

1 transcript in front of you? Is there a text running down your monitor?

2 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that.

3 Q. So please see when the typing ends and then answer me.

4 A. All right.

5 Q. Otherwise, the interpreters will not manage to interpret what

6 you've said and we'll have to go back to all the questions or we'll get

7 the questions and answers wrong or whatever.

8 Sir, yesterday we talked about the 18th of April, the day when you

9 returned from Cvilin to Foca.

10 A. Not Cvilin, Celovina.

11 Q. I apologise. And then you went to the KP Dom. Why did you go to

12 the KP Dom?

13 A. I heard stories from Celovina all the way to my apartment, that is

14 to say that people employed at the KP Dom were supposed to report there.

15 Q. You heard that from the military men who you were going with?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So when you saw your wife and children off, you reported to the

18 KP Dom; is that correct?

19 A. It is correct that I reported.

20 Q. You reported at the KP Dom for your work obligation; is that

21 correct?

22 A. It is correct that I reported to the duty officer.

23 Q. Can you remember who was the duty officer?

24 A. I think it was the late Veljko Kovac.

25 Q. So what were you told then when you reported?

Page 6078

1 A. Veljko said to me that I had to stay and work at the KP Dom.

2 Q. This work obligation, was that your wartime assignment?

3 A. Our wartime assignment before the war. We were supposed to report

4 at the KP Dom.

5 Q. When you reported to the -- at the KP Dom, was it damaged due to

6 war operations?

7 A. The KP Dom was damaged by shelling.

8 Q. Do you know what happened to the prisoners who left the KP Dom

9 together with you on the 10th of April?

10 A. Muslim and Croat detainees were taken to the prison in Spuz in

11 Montenegro.

12 Q. Did any of the prisoners return to the KP Dom?

13 A. Ethnic Serbs did.

14 Q. Are those prisoners who were serving their prison sentences from

15 before?

16 A. Yes. These were prisoners who were serving their sentences before

17 the war.

18 Q. Can you remember how many such prisoners were at the KP Dom?

19 A. At that time, there were nine convicts left in the compound and a

20 few at the farm.

21 Q. You said that the rest of the prisoners went to Spuz in

22 Montenegro. Who did they go with; do you know?

23 A. I know that they went with warden Radojica Tesovic, with the

24 following guards: Kunarac, Slavko; and Perisic, Vasilije; and Milutin

25 Tijanic, I think.

Page 6079

1 Q. Do you know how much time the former warden spent with those

2 prisoners in Montenegro and in Serbia?

3 A. I don't know about that.

4 Q. You said that the KP Dom was damaged due to shelling. Do you know

5 whether in the period when you left the Dom and until you came back, or

6 perhaps a day or two before that, that Muslim forces were staying at the

7 KP Dom?

8 A. When we left the KP Dom, the very same evening, the Muslims

9 returned to the shelter of the KP Dom.

10 Q. These Muslims from the KP Dom, did they start any combat

11 activities from there; do you know about that?

12 A. No, I don't know about that.

13 Q. What did the premises of the KP Dom look like?

14 A. As for the premises of the KP Dom, everything was destroyed,

15 scattered about, as if they had been searching the place.

16 Q. Were the window panes shattered on the KP Dom due to combat

17 operations?

18 A. As for the window panes, more than half were broken due to the

19 shelling.

20 Q. Do you know whether the roof was also damaged or destroyed due to

21 the shelling?

22 A. A few shells fell on the roof of the administration building.

23 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the KP Dom is in a part of town called

24 Donje Polje?

25 A. Yes. The KP Dom is near the exit out of Donje Polje.

Page 6080

1 Q. Is Donje Polje a predominantly Muslim neighbourhood?

2 A. Seventy per cent Muslims.

3 Q. Do you know that at Donje Polje, at the very beginning of the war

4 conflict, some houses were torched, houses belonging to ethnic Serbs?

5 A. When I was at Celovina, smoke could be seen. The Serb army came

6 up there and they said that houses had burned down. The houses of Milorad

7 Krnojelac, a doctor, a dentist, I can't remember his name exactly, Bozo

8 Drakul, who was head of our bookkeeping department, and Obrenovic the

9 electrician. Or actually he works as an electrician at the telecom

10 company.

11 Q. After you arrived at the KP Dom, did you go somewhere to get some

12 equipment issued to you or something?

13 A. I came to the KP Dom wearing civilian clothes. Since we changed

14 over there, when we worked, we had uniforms there. All our uniforms were

15 left behind at the KP Dom, and as we went to Josanica, when the Muslims

16 barged into the KP Dom, they took away everything, all our uniforms and

17 our weapons.

18 Q. Did you feel it was necessary to report to some military command?

19 A. We were told that people who did not have uniforms should go to

20 Livade to be issued with a uniform.

21 Q. When did you go to Livade?

22 A. I think on the seventh day when I managed to leave the KP Dom.

23 Q. So what were you issued at Livade?

24 A. Full uniform, except that half of it was too tight for me and I

25 couldn't get it on.

Page 6081

1 Q. So what did you wear when you stood guard afterwards?

2 A. Somebody stood guard in civilian clothes and then others who had

3 uniforms left over stood guard in uniform, or whatever.

4 Q. When you came to the KP Dom, were there some soldiers there?

5 A. When I came to the KP Dom there were some volunteer soldiers there

6 from Serbia, and also our soldiers who were providing security for the KP

7 Dom until we arrived.

8 Q. Were there any Muslim prisoners there when you arrived?

9 A. There was a group.

10 Q. Do you know who was in command at the KP Dom in terms of these

11 soldiers?

12 THE INTERPRETER: The witnesses started his answer too soon, so

13 could it please be repeated.

14 JUDGE HUNT: The interpreters have lost the answer. Actually,

15 perhaps because the answers have been fairly short there hasn't been very

16 much problem so far, but he is constantly coming in ahead of the

17 interpretation. So ask him the question again. If we lose it again, I'm

18 afraid Mr. Vasic is going to have to be a policeman and hold up his hand

19 or something when the interpretation finishes, because we can't go on like

20 this. Anyway, you ask the question again and see how we go for a while.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, please. Obviously it's difficult for you to follow

23 the transcript this way. Could you please look at us here, and when my

24 colleague Mr. Vasic gives you a sign, then start answering. Can we work

25 it out that way, please?

Page 6082

1 A. Yes, that's fine.

2 Q. So my question was the following: Were there any soldiers at the

3 KP Dom when you arrived there?

4 A. Yes, there were. Yes, there were.

5 Q. Which soldiers?

6 A. The volunteer guard from Serbia and our Serb army.

7 Q. Were there any detained Muslims there at the time in KP Dom?

8 A. They brought a group from Livade.

9 Q. Do you know who was in command over these soldiers at the KP Dom,

10 these military forces that were staying at the KP Dom?

11 A. At that time it was the military command that was in command, and

12 later they appointed Savo.

13 Q. Before Savo was appointed, was there some other person who was in

14 command of these forces?

15 A. No, no one.

16 Q. Do you know when these volunteer forces got out of the KP Dom?

17 A. The beginning of May.

18 Q. Do you know that after these paramilitary forces got out, part of

19 the KP Dom was ceded to the military or, rather, the Tactical Group Foca

20 for the detention of military prisoners?

21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not understand the

22 answer.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Ask it again, will you? The interpreters could not

24 understand the answer.

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Page 6083

1 Q. Sir, my question was whether you know, after these volunteers,

2 these volunteer soldiers got out, part of the KP Dom was ceded to the

3 Tactical Group of Foca for the detention of Muslim prisoners.

4 A. Yes, the KP Dom was ceded to the military, to the army.

5 Q. The detained persons who were of Muslim ethnicity, were they under

6 the military command in this military part of the prison?

7 A. All detained persons of Muslim ethnicity were under the military

8 command.

9 Q. Were there Serbs at the KP Dom, perpetrators of various violations

10 from the military?

11 A. Yes, there were. There were those who were stealing, who were

12 looting apartments, and who were dodging going to the front line.

13 Q. Were these detainees also under the military command?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. Sir, do you know who was in charge of these persons in the KP Dom

16 on behalf of the military command, these persons we just mentioned?

17 A. For all prisoners, detainees of Muslim ethnicity, it was Savo

18 Todovic who was in charge.

19 Q. Is it correct that everything went through Savo Todovic,

20 everything that had to do with the Muslim detainees and also the Serb

21 detainees who had perpetrated violations within the army of Republika

22 Srpska?

23 A. As for Muslims --

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour.


Page 6084

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. Bakrac is actually asking leading

2 questions all the time, "Isn't it true that this and this happened?"

3 JUDGE HUNT: You're quite right, but he may have learnt from your

4 examination occasionally, I'm afraid.

5 Yes, Mr. Bakrac. Of all people, you should be the last to be

6 asking leading questions, and that was a very leading question. It's

7 rejected.

8 Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. Believe

10 me, I thought that that way we would be able to handle things easier due

11 to all these difficulties we've been having with the witness answering his

12 questions in such haste, but I'll do my best.

13 Q. Sir, you said that Savo Todovic --

14 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. Yes. If it's a non-controversial

15 question, I'm sure no one would object to a leading question, but that was

16 a highly controversial question. So by all means, on non-controversial

17 matters, I don't think there should be any objection to leading, but,

18 please, not on that sort of one.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I

20 shall try to clarify or, rather, rectify matters.

21 Q. Sir, how come you know about what you said just now, that Savo

22 Todovic was in charge of Muslim detainees? How come you know about this?

23 A. The commander of the Foca Serb army appointed Savo to be in charge

24 of detained persons who were of Muslim ethnicity. As for detained Serb

25 soldiers, it was the command that was in charge.

Page 6085













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6086


2 Q. You said "commander". Which commander?

3 A. It was Marko Kovac at the time.

4 Q. Sir, how come you know about this fact? How come you know that

5 Marko Kovac appointed Savo Todovic?

6 A. Savo talked about it, because Savo and I were personal friends,

7 that no Muslims could be taken out without his knowledge.

8 Q. So he told you about that, Savo Todovic did?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You say that you were personal friends, family friends.

11 A. We were.

12 Q. Where did Savo Todovic live?

13 A. In my building, on the ground floor, and I lived on the first

14 floor.

15 Q. Did you visit?

16 A. Yes, we did, quite often.

17 Q. Did your wives also socialise?

18 A. They did and they do until the present day.

19 Q. Nothing went wrong in your relationship with Savo Todovic? Have

20 you quarrelled or have you had any altercations?

21 A. No, we never quarrelled.

22 Q. Do you know whether Milorad Krnojelac had any kind of authority

23 over these detained persons of Muslim ethnicity?

24 A. Milorad Krnojelac never had anything to do with the detained

25 Muslims.

Page 6087

1 Q. How come you know about that fact?

2 A. Because he took care of convicts of Serb ethnicity and the

3 Economic Unit Drina.

4 Q. You also said that he was in charge of persons who were serving

5 their sentences based on final judgements, and you said that some of them

6 were at the KP Dom and others at the farm. Can you remember some of these

7 persons who were convicted?

8 A. Rade Baralic; Mikerevic Nenad; Lazic Nenad; Aleksa Slobodan;

9 Zdravko, I can't remember his last name; Mile Simic I think; and I can't

10 remember any others. It's been nine years. It's a long time.

11 Q. You say that there were persons serving their prison sentences who

12 worked at the farm. Were there any women among them?

13 A. There were some women who were transferred from the women's prison

14 to the farm, women convicts, that is.

15 Q. Was that also within the KP Dom Foca?

16 A. That was within the KP Dom, except that the women's prison and the

17 men's prison were separate.

18 Q. The farm was also within the KP Dom, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you remember why some of these persons were doing time, what

21 they were convicted of, if you can possibly remember, for any of the

22 persons you mentioned?

23 A. Mile Pekic was a thief. He was convicted of theft. Aleksa

24 Slobodan was a murderer. Rade Baralic attempted to murder someone.

25 Simic, I think he was also a thief. Zdravko also tried to kill someone, I

Page 6088

1 think.

2 Q. Tell me, please, while you were at the KP Dom and doing guard duty

3 there, did you go to the front line every now and then?

4 A. From mid-1992 onwards we got orders from the military department

5 that a group should be appointed so that we could take up guard posts at

6 some kind of positions.

7 Q. How often did you go to the front?

8 A. Well, this was a group of 12 people. There were four shifts,

9 three or four shifts. It depended.

10 Q. How many days did you spend on guard duty at the KP Dom and how

11 many days would you spend at the front line? Can you remember that?

12 A. If I were on guard duty today and if I had to go to the front line

13 tomorrow, the time I would spend at the front line when we were returned

14 home, we would only have the night to spend at home and the very next day

15 we'd have to report back to work.

16 Q. So how many days would pass by then before you went to the front

17 again; can you remember?

18 A. Fifteen, sixteen days; four, five shifts, it depended. We would

19 spend four or five shifts at positions and the rest we would spend at the

20 compound of the KP Dom, so it depended on who got which shift.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you are still not complying with what we have

22 asked you to do, and that is to wait until the translation is finished.

23 Just watch Mr. Vasic over there to the left of Mr. -- to the left of the

24 counsel who is examining you, just to get the names correct. When he

25 indicates, and not until he indicates, then you can answer.

Page 6089

1 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Thanks, Mr. Bakrac.

3 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So my question was: How many days would pass by before you would

5 go to the front line again? How many days would you spend at the KP Dom

6 before going to the front line again?

7 A. It depends on how many groups we were. We would spend four days

8 on the front. If we were five groups, times four days, that's 20 days.

9 Then we would have 20 days back there.

10 Q. Thank you, sir. Since you went to the front line, were you under

11 military command?

12 A. We were under military command.

13 Q. Did other guards also go to the front line?

14 A. Every guard who was in good health and fit for military service

15 had to go to the front line.

16 Q. Is it true then that your compulsory work order was within the

17 framework of the wartime assignment just as your trips to the front line?

18 A. It was our obligation to wage war on the orders of the military

19 command, and to work.

20 Q. So when you were working at the KP Dom, did you used to see

21 Milorad Krnojelac at the KP Dom?

22 A. I would see him going across the compound to the factory or

23 towards his office. I would see him in the hallway leading to his

24 office.

25 Q. Did you see him going to the dining-room?

Page 6090

1 A. Yes. He went there occasionally to eat.

2 Q. Can you remember how often you saw him?

3 A. I saw him rarely because we worked in shifts. If I saw him until

4 3.00 p.m., I saw him. After that, I couldn't see him.

5 Q. Have you ever seen Milorad Krnojelac entering the building where

6 detainees were staying?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Krnojelac giving orders to guards or to

9 anyone else?

10 A. Krnojelac had never anything to do with us or our work. We had

11 our own superior, Mitar Rasevic.

12 Q. Can you remember, when you saw Mr. Krnojelac within the compound,

13 what he was wearing?

14 A. Sometimes he was in civilian clothes on his way to the factory. I

15 don't know. Before the war, I used to see him in civilian clothes, and I

16 heard that his house had burned down and that he was given some civilian

17 clothing.

18 Q. Do you know if Mr. Krnojelac was often away from the KP Dom? Did

19 he travel anywhere?

20 A. I heard from the women in the administration that Krnojelac had

21 gone to Serbia, that we would get some salaries which were due or we would

22 get some food.

23 Q. You said earlier that the Muslims had stayed at the KP Dom in the

24 period when you were away and that the KP Dom was damaged. Do you know

25 whether some vehicles had been taken away from the KP Dom too?

Page 6091

1 A. We had a huge stock of vehicles, and when we were leaving the

2 KP Dom together with the Muslims - it was Friday evening - a bus took me

3 in the direction of the Josanica. Some took cars and went to the farm,

4 some went towards Ustikolina on the left bank of the Drina River. At that

5 time, there remained 132 Fiat and Mercedes, a Lada car, and some

6 station-wagons that nobody had taken at that time.

7 When we returned to work at the KP Dom, we only found the

8 station-wagons and two FAPs. The Muslims had taken away the Mercedes and

9 the Fiat and the Lada and the fire engine and a bus had already taken

10 Muslims away from Foca.

11 In end April 1992, thanks to negotiations with the Muslims, the

12 bus was returned from Josanica, and the fire engine was found somewhere in

13 the forest after the Muslims had fled.

14 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you said that Muslim detainees had been at the

15 KP Dom. Do you know and could you tell us the total number of Muslim

16 detainees who passed through the KP Dom?

17 A. Well, there were about 500 Muslim detainees. I don't remember the

18 exact figure. It could be more. It could be less.

19 Q. I didn't ask you about the maximum number of detainees at any

20 single moment, I asked you how many overall passed through the KP Dom.

21 A. I'm saying 500, between 500 and 530.

22 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, regarding food that was served at the KP Dom, were

23 there always three meals distributed? Do you know that?

24 A. Not a single day passed that they didn't have three meals. Those

25 who worked had four meals.

Page 6092

1 Q. Did you also have your meals at the KP Dom?

2 A. We had to have our meals at the KP Dom, because we couldn't eat

3 elsewhere.

4 Q. Did you eat a different kind of food or you had the same food as

5 the Muslim detainees?

6 A. The cauldron was one and the same for everyone. Food was cooked

7 in it and served from it to everyone, including Muslims.

8 Q. Were the dishes or, how you call them, rations, were they the same

9 for you and for the Muslim detainees?

10 A. There were two types of dishes, plastic and china. The china

11 dishes were smaller than the plastic ones, but the spoon -- but the spoon

12 that was used to serve was one and the same for all, ladle.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Your question, Mr. Bakrac, you better ask it again in

14 terms of the quantity and quality of the food.

15 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Sir, my question was: Did you and the Muslim detainees get the

17 same quantity of food?

18 A. We got the same quantity of food.

19 Q. Did you get better, higher quality food than Muslim detainees?

20 A. No, we didn't.

21 Q. You said that food was cooked in one and the same cauldron. Is it

22 true that everyone ate from the same cauldron, both the staff and Muslim

23 detainees and everyone who had their meals at the KP Dom?

24 A. Food was cooked in the same cauldron and we all ate from it.

25 Q. In your statement given to the Defence's investigator, you said

Page 6093













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Page 6094

1 that the food was not very good. What did you mean by that?

2 A. The food wasn't very good, but in terms of quantity, it was

3 enough. We had enough to eat. But it could have been more nutritious,

4 depends on what everyone likes. We had cabbage, we had peas, potatoes,

5 the basics, the staples.

6 Q. Did you get the same rations, the same amounts of food, as the

7 Muslim detainees?

8 A. We did, but our homes were close by and we could get out sometimes

9 and get an extra meal, but at other times we couldn't get out for two or

10 three days.

11 Q. Sir, I actually asked you about the food that you had at the KP

12 Dom. In terms of quantity, was it the same as the food that the Muslims

13 received? When I say "you," I mean you the staff of the KP Dom and also

14 Serb detainees.

15 A. The quantities were the same.

16 Q. Were there any leftovers? Was food thrown away?

17 A. No. Food wasn't thrown away. If there were any leftovers, we got

18 second helpings, whoever wanted them. There were Muslims who took a

19 third, fourth, and fifth helping. There were times when they just

20 couldn't eat any more.

21 Q. Were there containers out in the courtyard in which -- into which

22 food was thrown out?

23 A. There were no containers in the courtyard. There was a bucket

24 down there at the kitchen and a table where dishes were cleaned up.

25 Sometimes you could find leftovers there, but rarely.

Page 6095

1 Q. Did you notice that Muslim detainees suffered a sudden and

2 significant weight loss while they were at the KP Dom?

3 A. Regarding weight loss, some people lost some weight, some people

4 didn't lose any and some people put on some flesh.

5 Q. When you say some people gained some weight, can you name anyone

6 in particular?

7 A. I can name Reko Taib. Then Sljivo, I don't know his other name.

8 Then I remember a Mandzo. I know about the three of them, that they put

9 on weight for sure.

10 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, regarding hygiene, did the Muslim detainees have the

11 wherewithal to maintain their personal hygiene?

12 A. As for hygiene, when they were locked up in their rooms, there was

13 enough soap, shampoo, and toiletries left over in the cupboards from

14 pre-war convicts, and they could use that. And later, additional supplies

15 were distributed to them. And later still, they got additional amounts of

16 toiletries from the Red Cross. And there were times when nothing was

17 available so nothing was distributed.

18 Q. And as for hot water for baths and washing, did they have that?

19 How could they use it?

20 A. There was a cauldron in front of the dining-room and water was

21 heated there. Anyone among them who wanted could bring a bucket and take

22 water to have a bath, to wash themselves. There was never a shortage of

23 water.

24 Q. Do you mean to say that there was cold water in every room?

25 A. That's correct. There was cold water available in every room.

Page 6096

1 Q. And water was heated in the cauldron on the roof?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake, in the compound not on

3 the roof.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The Muslim detainees who would come to fetch hot water from the

6 compound, from that cauldron, would they be punished for that?

7 A. It never happened that anyone was punished. We even forced them

8 to take water to wash themselves. How could I possibly --

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand a part of the

10 answer. Perhaps the witness could repeat.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Did you get that message from the interpreter?

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Would you be so kind as to repeat that last thing you said,

14 because the interpreters did not understand you and they can't interpret

15 it. You said you -- even you forced them to take water to wash

16 themselves. Why?

17 A. We forced them to take water, hot water, to shave, to wash their

18 hair, to avoid lice, and they had plenty of cold water in their rooms. We

19 had to enter those rooms to inspect them, and we didn't want to hold our

20 breaths or close our noses when we had to go in.

21 Q. And can you tell us why hot water was -- why water was heated in

22 the cauldron?

23 A. Water was heated in the cauldron because our boiler room was

24 damaged during an accident in the war and it couldn't operate. Therefore,

25 we heated water in order to wash the laundry and for people to use,

Page 6097

1 because the bathrooms and the laundry didn't work either.

2 Q. Was soap, the so-called kabas soap for washing laundry also

3 distributed to Muslim detainees?

4 A. They found in their lockers a certain amount of soap in their

5 rooms. Later, smaller bars of soap were distributed to them, and larger

6 bars were not available.

7 Q. Did the Muslim detainees at the KP Dom have any medical care

8 available to them?

9 A. They had medical care. There was Gojko Jokanovic, our nurse. He

10 was permanently there. And doctors from the medical centre also visited.

11 Q. When you say that Gojko Jokanovic the nurse was there permanently,

12 does it mean he was there every day?

13 A. That was his compulsory work order. He didn't go to take up any

14 positions so his duty was to be at the KP Dom.

15 Q. Do you know how often doctors from the medical centre came to the

16 KP Dom?

17 A. The doctors came twice a week, before the war they came every day,

18 and during the war they came two or three times a week.

19 Q. Do you remember and do you know which doctors came to the KP Dom?

20 A. First Cedo Dragovic used to come before he deserted. Then came

21 Vladicic, Drago, and Milovan Dobrilovic.

22 Q. Was there a pharmacy at the KP Dom and who had a key to it?

23 A. There was a pharmacy at the KP Dom. I later saw Gojko Jokanovic

24 carrying the key, and I entered once or twice the pharmacy with him and

25 with Dr. Ibro Karovic.

Page 6098

1 Q. You said that once Dr. Ibro Karovic was in the pharmacy with Gojko

2 Jokanovic. Did he receive any medicines from Gojko Jokanovic on that

3 occasion?

4 A. Since one Muslim was captured on Allah, on the road from Gorazde

5 to Grebak, he was caught by the army somewhere up on Allah's road and

6 brought him in. I saw that Muslim lying in his bed. He was deaf and

7 mute. He couldn't speak. But I recognised him as a man originally from

8 Ustikolina. He was sick. Gojko was in the room with him, but he couldn't

9 say anything. So Gojko invited Ibro to come with him to the pharmacy to

10 see what they could get for him. That's how it came about the three of us

11 went to the pharmacy.

12 Q. Did everyone among the Muslim detainees who had a complaint have

13 the possibility to get medical assistance? Do you know that?

14 A. When a doctor came, we would go from room to room and ask people

15 who wanted to be examined by a doctor. When we finished with -- taking

16 one group to the doctor, we would again go from room to room to see if

17 anyone else wanted to be seen.

18 Q. So anyone who said they wanted to be seen by a doctor was taken to

19 the infirmary by you; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Will you please tell me, Mr. Ivanovic, about the rooms at the

22 KP Dom? Were they overcrowded or did everyone among the Muslim detainees

23 have their own bed?

24 A. The rooms were not overcrowded. Every Muslim had a bed with a

25 mattress. Even if there was no bed, there was a mattress. Every Muslim

Page 6099

1 had two blankets or possibly more.

2 Q. Did I understand you correctly? You said everyone had at least

3 two blankets and sometimes more.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know, Mr. Ivanovic, the total number of Muslim detainees

6 who went out to work?

7 A. From six to eight went to work at the metalwork shop. Six Muslims

8 went together with Serb convicts to the factory, and sometimes they went

9 to work at the farm as required. They didn't go anywhere else. And there

10 were the two or three cooks who worked at the kitchen and one who helped

11 out at the bakery, no more than that.

12 Q. So in your opinion, what was the total number of Muslim detainees

13 who worked?

14 A. Well, from 20 to 25.

15 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, do you know whether this work was paid?

16 A. It was not paid. There wasn't enough money for that.

17 Q. Do you know whether these people refused to go to work?

18 A. As for work, everybody wanted to work, and you couldn't take them

19 back. They asked to go to work. In the metal plant, people who had

20 professional training of that sort worked there, also at the factory.

21 And, for example, a tailor would sit there and do his sewing, and then

22 they made couches, sofas. That was no hard work.

23 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, tell me, please, did Muslim detainees have a time

24 for taking walks within the compound of the KP Dom during the day?

25 A. Walks came after breakfast. We took each room out for half-hour

Page 6100

1 walks in 1992. I don't know about 1993. Yes. Yes, 1993, too, when there

2 were the larger number of Muslims. As the numbers dwindled, two rooms

3 would go for a walk at the same time.

4 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, did the guards ever interrogate Muslim detainees or

5 prisoners or any detainees and prisoners?

6 A. Guards did not have the right to do that. They did not

7 interrogate Serbs or Muslims.

8 Q. Did you personally physically mistreat any of the detained Muslims

9 or did you see any of your colleagues doing that?

10 A. As for entering the KP Dom, as for prisoners and detainees, no

11 guards ever mistreated them or beat them.

12 Q. Did you receive orders or instructions from someone to mistreat

13 ethnic Muslims physically or abuse them?

14 A. I did not, and I cannot guarantee for others.

15 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, when you would talk to detainees of Muslim

16 ethnicity, were you punished for doing that?

17 A. I could talk to them for two hours at a time and nobody would say

18 a word to me, nor would anyone punish me for that.

19 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, did you know Mr. Krnojelac before the war?

20 A. No, and I don't remember ever having seen him.

21 Q. After staying at the KP Dom and after the war, did you become

22 friends?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know then what people think about Mr. Krnojelac, people

25 from your own milieu?

Page 6101













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6102

1 A. As for me, I have not heard anything about him, anything bad about

2 him. As for these other teachers, they say that he was a good man, a fair

3 man.

4 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these were all the

5 questions that the Defence had for this witness.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

7 Cross-examination. Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. And before we start

9 the cross-examination, the questions, I would like to give a name sheet to

10 the witness, because we have to discuss certain matters related to

11 protected witnesses.


13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: So we have a sheet for everyone.

14 JUDGE HUNT: The pseudonym sheet will be P455 --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Hunt, please.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I am sorry. The pseudonym sheet will be Exhibit P455

17 and it is under seal.

18 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

19 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you have now a piece of paper in front of you with a

20 lot of names, and whenever we will refer to people listed on the sheet of

21 paper, you will not mention the name but you -- we will use the number

22 next to the name. Do you understand that?

23 JUDGE HUNT: He need not use the letters FWS. Just the numbers

24 should be sufficient.


Page 6103

1 Q. And you always have to answer verbally. If you nod, it's not on

2 the transcript. So your answer was yes, right, you understood that you're

3 supposed to use the number and not the name? Please --

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you mentioned that the Muslims armed themselves in

6 Foca before the war. The Serbs did the same thing; isn't that right?

7 They armed themselves too, didn't they?

8 A. Before the war, Serbs and Muslims were armed but the Muslims were

9 the first to get armed.

10 Q. You mentioned that prisoners fled from the KP Dom immediately

11 before the outbreak of the war and you did not stop them, right? You did

12 not shoot at them, you did not stop them; is that correct?

13 A. As for convicts who fled from the KP Dom, one group escaped on

14 Monday evening, the other one on Tuesday, and some didn't want to go, and

15 then we took them out on Friday to the farm. The Serbs were separated

16 from the Muslims. The Muslims were taken to Spuz, and I don't know where

17 they took them after Spuz. As for the Serbs, the Serbs who could reach

18 their houses went to their houses. Those who couldn't, remained within

19 the ranks of the Serb army.

20 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, please listen to my question. We do not need to

21 repeat everything that you have already said when Mr. Bakrac questioned

22 you. Just listen very carefully to my question. We always want to talk

23 about additional matters. And my question was: When the prisoners fled

24 over the wall or through the gate, as you said, you did not stop them?

25 You, for instance, did not shoot at them, right?

Page 6104

1 A. We did not shoot at them.

2 Q. And it was Mr. Tesovic, the then warden, who ordered you not to

3 stop them, not to shoot them, right?

4 A. Mr. Tesovic said that we shouldn't shoot at them. If we can, we

5 should stop them from leaving.

6 Q. You said that they also escaped through the gate. Doesn't that

7 mean the gate was opened for them?

8 A. They were all at the gate. They wanted to barge through the

9 gate. So we had to open it.

10 Q. And it was Mr. Tesovic who allowed you to do that, right?

11 A. Tesovic was then at the farm.

12 Q. Mr. Tesovic also told you to discharge the weapon in the KP Dom

13 that was stored there so that the weapons could not be used by the

14 combatants, right?

15 A. Tesovic gave orders that safety locks of rifles should be burned

16 down.

17 Q. He did not want the weapons to be used in this war, right?

18 A. He didn't want them to be used.

19 Q. KP Dom was one of the biggest prisons in the former Yugoslavia,

20 right?

21 A. It was not the biggest one.

22 Q. I said one of the biggest. It was a big one, right?

23 A. Well, on average, 500 to 600 convicts.

24 Q. To be the warden of the KP Dom meant to be high up in the local

25 hierarchy, right?

Page 6105

1 A. I don't understand what this hierarchy means.

2 Q. Among the well-known people, well-respected people, the warden of

3 the KP Dom was among them, right?

4 A. Radojica was respected on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 Q. Because he had such a high position, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Tesovic was a moderate man, right?

8 A. He was an excellent man, a great educator.

9 Q. And he was not a supporter of the SDS ideology of nationalism,

10 right?

11 A. He did not support that.

12 Q. He actually disagreed with this nationalistic trends, right?

13 A. He disagreed with every party, all the parties that were in power.

14 Q. Mr. Tesovic was supposed to become the warden during the war,

15 right? Was he not?

16 A. I don't know about that.

17 Q. He refused to work as warden, didn't he? He didn't want this

18 position during the war.

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say

23 that the witness said that he didn't know about that, so then the question

24 was just rephrased, but he had already said that he did not know about

25 that.

Page 6106

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, but please let the witness answer for himself.

2 I'm sure he's able to do it. You are not helping your client by helping

3 the witness. The cross-examiner doesn't have to accept every answer which

4 is given. They are entitled to challenge the answer.

5 You go ahead, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


7 Q. But you told Dr. Berberkic exactly that, didn't you?

8 A. I never talked to them about the structure of the KP Dom.

9 Q. You talked to Dr. Amir Berberkic, didn't you?

10 A. I talked to many Muslims.

11 Q. He was among these many Muslims, right?

12 A. He was.

13 Q. He was one that you used to talk to for two hours, as you

14 mentioned, right?

15 A. I never talked to him individually for a minute, but I would talk

16 to a group of Muslims in the rooms for, say, two hours.

17 Q. When the war started, the prisoners of Muslim ethnicity you

18 mentioned were transferred to Montenegro. Do you know where they ended up

19 actually, in which prison?

20 A. I don't know which prison. I just heard that they were handed

21 over somewhere around Tuzla, but I don't know who to.

22 Q. And do you know when, when they were finally handed over near

23 Tuzla?

24 A. I don't know about that. The month of April.

25 Q. Mr. Tesovic accompanied these prisoners, right?

Page 6107

1 A. Tesovic left Foca with them, but I don't know how far he went with

2 them, in terms of accompanying them.

3 Q. He went with the prisoners because he was concerned about their

4 safety, right?

5 A. He was probably concerned and he probably wanted to get them out

6 of town.

7 Q. Mr. Tesovic returned to Foca in April, 1992, didn't he?

8 A. He did.

9 Q. He was even in the KP Dom for a day with a commission, wasn't he?

10 A. I didn't see him and I don't remember.

11 Q. After that, from April 1992, to summer 1993, he did not work at

12 the KP Dom, right?

13 A. He did not. He worked at the farm.

14 Q. That was only after 1993 -- in summer 1993, right?

15 A. 1992, 1993. He was at the farm. I don't know the exact time,

16 from when until when.

17 Q. What exactly did he do in this period? What did he do at the

18 farm? Do you know that?

19 A. I don't know what he did, but he was up there.

20 Q. You mentioned the few convicts, Serb convicts, that remained in

21 the KP Dom compound. Where, in which room, were they housed? Do you

22 recall the room number?

23 A. They were in Room number 18.

24 THE INTERPRETER: 19, interpreter's correction.

25 Q. You said that you lived in Donje Polje, and you also mentioned

Page 6108

1 that you, on the 10th, moved to Celovina, right, near Josanica?

2 A. I had to go to Josanica, and then I had to walk all the way to

3 Celovina for four hours on foot.

4 Q. You left -- you and your family left Donje Polje because you felt

5 unsafe in this part of the town, right?

6 A. It is true that we all left Donje Polje, Serbs, Muslims. Hardly

7 anyone stayed behind to see what his fate would be.

8 Q. You mentioned that you returned on the 18th of April, and you said

9 that you were escorted by the army to your apartment. Why were you

10 escorted?

11 A. Well, I wasn't sure that I could pass, and I did not believe I

12 could actually pass safely.

13 Q. What kind of army accompanied you?

14 A. The Serb army, two soldiers.

15 Q. You said that you reported to the KP Dom because it was your war

16 assignment to do so, right?

17 A. I reported at the KP Dom according to my war assignment.

18 Q. Was this a war assignment that you got through the TO? Was it

19 your TO position, or what war assignment was it?

20 A. Before the war broke out, we were assigned to the KP Dom in case

21 of war.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

23 show the witness the Exhibit P446.

24 Q. Sir, as you can see, the list has the headline "List of men liable

25 for military service, members of the Foca KP Dom." Handwritten underneath

Page 6109













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6110

1 there is, "October 1992." Do you see that?

2 A. I see that.

3 Q. And under number 19, "Risto Ivanovic, born 1953, soldier,

4 31 days," and then a handwritten number. That refers to you, right?

5 A. I was not born in 1953. I was born in 1950.

6 Q. But still, number 19, "Ivanovic Risto, son of Milos," that's you,

7 isn't it?

8 A. Yes, that's me.

9 Q. The handwritten number next to the first "31" on this line, is

10 that your account number? It says "6093."

11 A. It should be.

12 Q. And you are listed on this list as a soldier, right?

13 A. I was a soldier and I also had work obligation.

14 Q. You were a soldier of the VRS, right, of the Tactical Group Foca?

15 A. I was.

16 Q. It says on this list 31 day -- number of days, 31 days in

17 October. You were not on the front line the entire October, were you?

18 A. As for the front line, I've already said we'd go to the front line

19 for three or four days and then it depended on shifts. Then we would work

20 at the KP Dom in the meantime until we were sent back to the front line.

21 Q. But here it says 31 days for combat allowance. That means in

22 relation to this list and your position, you were a soldier all the time,

23 no matter whether you were in the KP Dom or whether you were on the front

24 line, right?

25 A. I was a soldier in the KP Dom and during that month. I mean I

Page 6111

1 would not spent 31 days at the front line.

2 Q. But now look at number 1, number 1 -- position number 1 on the

3 list. You see that Mr. Milorad Krnojelac is listed here, right, and is

4 listed as a captain 1st class?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In this list he is actually -- he's actually, like you, a soldier,

7 right?

8 A. Milorad Krnojelac was never at positions nor was he soldier.

9 Q. But according to this list, it says here "Captain 1st Class," and

10 it says here 31 days for combat allowance in October 1992, and if you look

11 at the second page, it's also Mr. Krnojelac that compiled the list and

12 signed it, isn't it?

13 A. Milorad Krnojelac did not make up any list. He was not at the

14 front line for a single day.

15 Q. Look at number 2, "Savo Todovic." That's the Savo Todovic you

16 talked about, right?

17 A. Yes. Yes, yes, Savo Todovic.

18 Q. And he's listed here as a soldier. He's only a soldier just like

19 you, right?

20 A. He was a soldier. How they promoted him over there, that I don't

21 know.

22 Q. Mitar Rasevic is a soldier, right? He's under number 3.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And we have actually 58 soldiers listed under KP Dom and one of

25 them is Mr. Krnojelac, isn't he?

Page 6112

1 A. Krnojelac was not a soldier.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.

3 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


8 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, before the break you mentioned several times that

9 Mr. Krnojelac was not a soldier; however, he sometimes wore a military

10 uniform when he was in the KP Dom; isn't that right?

11 A. He had to wear a uniform at the KP Dom because he had nothing else

12 to wear.

13 Q. It was an -- a uniform, a military uniform, with an officer's bag

14 and officer's belt, right?

15 A. I don't know anything about that. All the uniforms were the

16 same.

17 Q. He had a pistol, right?

18 A. I didn't see it.

19 Q. You said he had to wear a uniform at the KP Dom because he had

20 nothing else to wear. What do you mean by that?

21 A. His house had burned down. His uniform had burnt. All his

22 belongings had burnt.

23 Q. But during the examination-in-chief, you said he was wearing

24 civilian clothes. You saw him with civilian clothes. And now you say he

25 had nothing else to wear, that's why he had a uniform?

Page 6113

1 A. He had to change. He couldn't wear the same clothes for a month

2 on end.

3 Q. Mr. Tesovic, when he was the warden, he always had civilian

4 clothes, right?

5 A. It wasn't the state of war then, that's why.

6 Q. But he did not wear a KP Dom uniform, right? A warden has

7 civilian clothes?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that you reported to the KP Dom the day after your return

10 from Celovina, and I would like to ask you about the exact dates.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

12 show the witness Exhibit P3.

13 Q. And please have a look at the first page, line 9. It says -- as

14 you can see in line 9, you are listed, and this time it's the correct

15 birth date. It says 19 April 1992 to 30 February [sic]. There is

16 obviously a mistake. It says here 1992, but it should say 1993. And

17 below there is 2nd September, 1993, to 31st October 1994. Were you

18 somewhere else between the 1st of March until the 1st of September, 1993?

19 A. I wasn't anywhere. I was only at the position, as I said before.

20 Q. So there was no gap? You were in the KP Dom from the 19th of

21 April, 1992, through to the 31st October, 1994, and even longer than that,

22 right?

23 A. I was at the KP Dom from the 19th of April in the morning until

24 the 31st of May 1996, until I retired, that is.

25 Q. Do you have any explanation or idea why there is this gap in these

Page 6114

1 dates on the document? Did anything particular happen in March 1993?

2 A. I don't remember. My brother got killed in May. Maybe there is

3 some mistake.

4 Q. Thank you. Except for going to the front line occasionally, as

5 you have explained, you were a guard at the KP Dom and it was the same job

6 that you had done before, right?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. And the only formal difference was that the military command

9 assigned you to this position as a war assignment, right?

10 A. The military command assigned us.

11 Q. Yes. And when you say "us," that applies to the KP Dom staff, to

12 the entire KP Dom staff, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The details of your particular job duties in the KP Dom you did

15 get from Mr. Rasevic, your former commander, right?

16 A. We knew our duties. We knew our work plan. Mitar Rasevic just

17 assigned us within the working hours, from when to when we were supposed

18 to be on duty.

19 Q. So you had mostly dealings with the duty officer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. No matter on which post you were, right? No matter where you were

22 in the KP Dom, it was the duty officer who gave you your orders, right,

23 the direct orders for the day?

24 A. There were no direct orders of any sort. We had our work posts

25 and we worked on those posts. When my partner, my friend, came to replace

Page 6115

1 me, I would tell him orally whatever I had to say and then I would go

2 home.

3 Q. And in your work, it did not make a difference whether you had to

4 attend to Muslim or Serb inmates, right?

5 A. Everyone was all the same to us.

6 Q. And it also made no difference whether your assignment was related

7 to the Serb convicts from before the war and those Serbs convicts who had

8 violated military law, right? There was no difference?

9 A. The military court that existed at the time took care of them.

10 They brought them and they took them away. Their room was Room number 18

11 when we began to lock them up.

12 Q. Do you mean that their arrival in the KP Dom and their release

13 depended on the military court, but their treatment within the KP Dom,

14 that was guard duty and staff duty, right?

15 A. The guards only had orders to take them to breakfast, lunch, and

16 dinner.

17 Q. But that's what a guard does, right? A guard does have these

18 functions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You said that the convicts, the Serb convicts, were in Room

21 number 19. Those Serbs violating the military laws were also in Room 19,

22 weren't they?

23 A. Serbs were not in Room 19. Those who were military offenders were

24 not. Room 19 housed people who were guilty of offences before the war.

25 Q. Where were the Serb military detainees?

Page 6116

1 A. You mean offenders?

2 Q. Yes, those who violated military law.

3 A. In 1992 they were in Trebinje, those who were guilty of criminal

4 actions under military law.

5 Q. We are talking about people who violated military law, for

6 instance, deserters and those who were disciplined. They were in Room 19,

7 right?

8 A. Eighteen.

9 Q. When you had your guard duties, you never got orders from

10 Mr. Todovic, right? He was not your superior?

11 A. No, Todovic was not our superior.

12 Q. You said that you wore military uniform because the KP Dom uniform

13 was taken away by the Muslims. That's what you said, right?

14 A. It's true that the Muslims had taken away our uniforms.

15 Q. From when onwards did you have new KP Dom uniforms? When did you

16 start wearing KP Dom uniforms?

17 A. I don't remember. The army had some summer clothes made for us.

18 Q. Does that mean you never wore KP Dom uniform, your former guard

19 uniform, you never wore it in these years, 1992 through 1993?

20 A. Whoever had one, wore it; whoever didn't, didn't.

21 Q. You did not have one?

22 A. No.

23 Q. When did you get one?

24 A. I got a military uniform.

25 Q. When did you get your KP Dom uniform? When did you start wearing

Page 6117













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6118

1 a KP Dom uniform, from when onwards?

2 A. Until I got retired, we didn't receive any new KP Dom uniforms.

3 Q. Sir, let us discuss a few rooms within the KP Dom.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

5 show the witness the Exhibit P6/3. You can have this. We need to have

6 the prisoners' quarters. Yes.

7 Q. You see the room indicated? Mr. Ivanovic, you see there Room 19?

8 If it is easier for you to orient yourself, you can also look at the

9 sketch first. You can look on the sketch. It's maybe easier.

10 Do you recognise this floor plan? Is it -- when you look at where

11 19 is indicated, that's the ground floor?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sorry, it's the first floor. It's the first floor. Is that

14 correct? Is Room number 19 positioned correctly on this floor plan?

15 A. Well, the way the building looks to me, it seems to be so.

16 Q. And you said that was the room where the convicts were, right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. When you said these other Serbs that were there because of

19 violating military law, you said they were in Room 18. You see Room 18

20 here. Do you still claim they were in Room 18?

21 A. Sometime during -- sometime they were in Room 18. In the

22 beginning, the Muslims were there, and then when Serb military offenders

23 started coming in, we moved them and put Serb offenders into that room.

24 Q. When did you do that? What time are we talking about?

25 A. I don't remember. I don't remember what month it was.

Page 6119

1 Q. But we are talking about the year 1993, right? What you just

2 described to us is 1993, right?

3 A. I cannot remember. I know that for a while, Muslims were in Room

4 18, and then Serb offenders came and were placed in that room.

5 Q. In the beginning of the detention of Muslims in the KP Dom, the

6 Serb offenders, those who had violated military law, were in Room 19,

7 together with the convicts; isn't that the truth?

8 A. I really cannot remember. Perhaps one or two of them were but not

9 more.

10 Q. As we are already here with that same floor plan, there is also

11 the administration building on this -- on this same floor plan. It's the

12 lower building and it's the second floor. The warden office, please point

13 it out to us.

14 A. I cannot remember. I cannot understand this. The administrative

15 building had the ground floor and floors 1 and 2. He was on the second

16 floor.

17 Q. Yes. And he had the warden's office that Mr. Tesovic had, right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Mr. Todovic was sitting in the -- on the same floor, next to

20 Mr. Krnojelac, right?

21 A. I often found Todovic in the administrative building in the

22 lawyer's office at the end of the building.

23 Q. Can you point this lawyer's office out to us on this floor plan

24 that you have in front of you? Please -- please put your pointer on this

25 spot and leave it there for a brief period. Sir, you point at a spot

Page 6120

1 where there is a staircase indicated. Is that a mistake, that there is a

2 staircase, or was the room of the lawyer at the same -- at the same spot?

3 A. I know the building had two ends. Todovic was on one end and the

4 warden was on the other.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the witness was pointing at the

6 staircase in -- on the second floor. It's in the right-hand corner of the

7 administration building as we see it here.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

9 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I waited for the witness

10 to answer lest I be reprimanded for helping him, but I don't know how long

11 we will continue to use this floor plan, a plan which was drawn up

12 according to the memory of one person and which is obviously not

13 accurate. This is confusing witnesses. I didn't say this earlier because

14 I didn't want to be seen as helping the witness, but we have already had

15 witnesses saying that this floor plan is not correct, and this is only

16 confusing the witness when we ask him to point one thing or another.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Well, there are a number of witnesses who have said

18 that it is correct. So it's really a matter for us to sort out

19 afterwards. If the witness says that's where it was, then we will take

20 that into account. In fact, another witness has already said the same,

21 hasn't he?

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: One of the Defence witnesses, right.



25 Q. Sir, you said that it was the lawyer's office. Do you mean

Page 6121

1 Mr. Milan Vujovic? Is that the lawyer you refer to?

2 A. That's correct. I said there was a lawyer but the building had

3 more than one floor. The warden had one -- had his office on one end and

4 Todovic had his office on the other. I cannot find my way around here on

5 this floor plan. I can show you in real life where everyone was.

6 Q. Yes. Thank you. The office of the lawyer, Milan Vujovic, wasn't

7 it a guard post during the war where guards observed the detainees in the

8 yard?

9 A. There was a guard post, but during the day this guard post was --

10 there was the secretary's office and here was the lawyer's place, lawyer's

11 office. The lawyer had a secretary. You would enter first into the

12 secretary's office and from there into the lawyer's office.

13 Q. But during the war, it was used for guard duty, and Mr. Todovic

14 didn't work there during the war, right?

15 A. I found Todovic sitting there on more than one occasion. And

16 since the guard post was facing the bridge, it wasn't looking into the

17 courtyard, into the compound.

18 Q. The guard who observed the compound from the second floor, where

19 was he then? Where was this guard positioned?

20 A. The guard who monitored, didn't monitor the compound but the wall

21 surrounding the compound. He was located in an office on the other end of

22 the building. He was covering the wall which was not lit. There was only

23 one lamp on, and as for guard posts with weapons facing the compound,

24 there was no such thing.

25 Q. How often did you stand duty on this second floor where the

Page 6122

1 warden's office was? Was it a usual guard post for you?

2 A. I didn't stand guard on duty there.

3 Q. But you said you saw Mr. Todovic occasionally in this office of

4 Milan Vujovic. What did you do then on the second floor when you saw

5 him?

6 A. I went to see Todovic, because he would invite me occasionally to

7 share a glass of brandy.

8 Q. Was there a coffee bar or something on the second or first or

9 ground floor of this part of the administration building?

10 A. As for a coffee bar, there wasn't one, but there was a place where

11 you could make coffee and take it to your office to drink.

12 Q. And where was it? On which floor was it?

13 A. On the ground floor.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

15 show the witness a sketch, or floor plan 6/1.

16 Q. It's actually the same floor plan, sir, but it's now the ground

17 floor of the administration building. Are you able to orient yourself and

18 show us this particular room where you could make coffee?

19 A. That room was located -- when you entered through the gate into

20 the compound, it was next to the gate. It was linked to an office.

21 Through the gate you could go into the compound, and to one side there was

22 a hallway leading upstairs and there was a room you could -- where you

23 could make coffee.

24 Q. Witness, please have a look at the floor plan. Is that -- the

25 room that you just talked about, is that the room -- the first room on the

Page 6123

1 right side when you enter the KP Dom and go through the entrance area?

2 A. [Indicates].

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the room that is

4 called "Office" or "Kanc," K-a-n-c. That's the room the witness has just

5 pointed out.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. But we still need it. We still need this.

7 You see also in the left part, in the left part of this same floor

8 plan, the ground floor of the administration building, left from the

9 entrance you see a staircase indicated through these lines. Do you see

10 that? Maybe it's easier if you look at the real sketch, sir. It's a

11 little bit better to see. Do you see the staircase?

12 A. This is the entrance door. This is the gate, then the steps, and

13 then this is the duty officer's office, and then this is the staircase

14 leading upstairs. This is the toilet. This is the telephone exchange

15 room. There were two offices here.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last word.


18 Q. What was your last word, sir? They didn't hear it because you're

19 a little bit away from the microphone.

20 A. This is where our weapons were kept. Over here, two -- these last

21 two offices. And this is where we would change sometimes. There was a

22 room there where we would change.

23 Q. And you said that there was the WC, and then you mentioned the

24 telephone exchange.

25 A. Telephone exchange room.

Page 6124

1 Q. Telephone exchange room. So this telephone exchange room was next

2 to the toilet?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that ever changed while you were there?

5 A. No. This telephone exchange was actually divided into three

6 parts.

7 Q. Which three parts?

8 A. When you enter the telephone exchange, it was split in two

9 halves. This is where the electrician was. Perhaps it's a cubicle of a

10 metre by a metre and a half. And then there was that woman who worked

11 there in this other part.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

13 show the witness a photo from the Defence Exhibits, and it's actually the

14 photo A -- A8 and A9.

15 Q. If you -- sir, if you look at the photo A9 first - that's the

16 lower photo - is that the cubicle that you spoke about with the -- where

17 the electrician was? Does that look familiar to you?

18 A. No. No. I can't remember this.

19 Q. And if you look at the upper photo, photo A9 -- A8, sorry, does

20 that look familiar to you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. We can take this away, but we

24 have to leave the sketch there. The sketch is to go back. Yes. It's

25 okay though. Please focus a little bit more on the lower -- yes, that's

Page 6125













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Page 6126

1 okay. Thank you.

2 Q. Sir, there was a room in the left part of the administration

3 building where there were rings on the floor where detainees or prisoners

4 could be fixed to, right?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Didn't you, for instance, if someone has to be sobered up in

7 peacetime, didn't you have such a room that you could fix them so that

8 they didn't hurt themselves?

9 A. At first this was our dormitory that was used for officials who

10 would bring convicts to court or to prison. Later on -- well, there was

11 no room within the compound where people could be tied up. If a convict

12 would come drunk, then we would put him in there in order to sober up if

13 we couldn't take him to the compound. I'm talking about before the war.

14 Q. And where is this room where you saw -- where people who had to be

15 sobered up were put? Can you point that out? Is it on this floor?

16 A. Behind the duty officer's room. Right behind it. Here.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness is pointing at the fourth office

18 from the right -- from the left side, facing the street. When you count

19 from the left side, left part of this administration building facing the

20 street, the fourth room.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you, sir.

22 You also -- you pointed out to us the room where you could make

23 coffee to take to your officers. Did you sometimes sit in this room

24 chatting?

25 A. No. It was a very small office. There was a desk there and then

Page 6127

1 the detector, then there was a cupboard, there were files for the previous

2 convicts.

3 Q. When Mr. Krnojelac received detainees, Muslim detainees, did he

4 use this room to meet them?

5 A. I never saw him receiving Muslim detainees.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. We don't need the floor plan any more

7 then.

8 Q. You said on the first day that you arrived in the KP Dom you

9 reported to the duty officer. Did you also report on that first day to

10 Mr. Rasevic?

11 A. Rasevic wasn't there.

12 Q. Did you report to Mr. Krnojelac, the warden?

13 A. No.

14 Q. But you knew that he was the warden when you arrived, right?

15 A. I heard that some Krnojelac had come - I didn't know him - that

16 the Crisis Staff had appointed him.

17 Q. You knew that he was a captain first class, right, or you learnt

18 this?

19 A. I didn't know that. I first heard of that today, that he's a

20 captain first class.

21 Q. Who told you that Krnojelac had come? Was it the duty officer?

22 A. The duty officer told me that some Mico Krnojelac had come to the

23 KP Dom to be warden in order to preserve the economic unit.

24 Q. When did you actually meet him for the first time, Mr. Mico

25 Krnojelac?

Page 6128

1 A. I can't remember. If I would come across him, I would say "hello"

2 and pass by.

3 Q. You never had dealings with him? You never had to report anything

4 to him?

5 A. I never went to the office. I never reported to him, nor did I

6 have any contact with him.

7 Q. But he was the only warden in the KP Dom at that time, right?

8 There was no other warden, correct?

9 A. He was the warden, but there was Milan Vujovic there too. I don't

10 know what he did. And there were other workers at the KP Dom. Who had

11 which particular position, I have no idea whatsoever.

12 Q. Milan Vujovic that you just mentioned, he was there only for a

13 very brief period, wasn't he?

14 A. He was there for a while and then he disappeared.

15 Q. So you cannot tell us actually nothing about the management, the

16 senior officers of the KP Dom. You cannot tell us details of their work,

17 right?

18 A. It depends who. Who do you want me to tell you about? Radojica

19 Tesovic was with the convicts at the farm. Mitar Rasevic, I can't

20 remember where he was. Vujovic was here. And I don't know who else there

21 was.

22 Q. We were talking about Mr. Krnojelac. I think there is no doubt

23 that we were talking about the warden, and I asked you if he was the

24 warden and you confirmed that, and you said there was also Milan Vujovic.

25 I mean, he was not the warden, Milan Vujovic, or what do you want to say

Page 6129

1 by referring to him?

2 A. He was in the Dom too. And what particular office he held -- post

3 he held, I don't know exactly.

4 Q. But you said that Mr. Todovic was in charge of the Muslims, Muslim

5 detainees, and the Serb military prisoners. That you knew.

6 A. Todovic was not in charge of the Serb military prisoners. The

7 command appointed him for the Muslims.

8 Q. But Mr. Todovic was not superior to Mr. Krnojelac, right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. When you saw Mr. Krnojelac in the yard, or wherever you met him,

11 you greeted him as the warden, right? You didn't say "Mico"?

12 A. Sometimes I just raised my hand like this, "Good day," "Good

13 day." And we also addressed many Muslims as director. Avdic Safet,

14 nobody ever called him "Avdic Safet." We always called him "director."

15 That was out of respect.

16 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac the warden, he was addressed as "warden" by

17 guards and other staff members, wasn't he?

18 A. We called him "warden" and I call my teacher "teacher" until the

19 present day. I know that he was the warden in the KP Dom, but he was not

20 the warden of the Muslims or of me personally. They also called that

21 other Mico "boss," the one from the administration.

22 Q. What other Mico do you mean?

23 A. Rasevic. Rasevic. We called him "Mico."

24 Q. Mr. Mitar Rasevic. But he was your boss, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6130

1 Q. How did you address Savo Todovic?

2 A. I called Savo Todovic by his first name.

3 Q. And the other guards who were not friends? How did they address

4 him?

5 A. Everybody called him "Savo."

6 Q. Before the war, Mr. Savo Todovic was in the KP Dom administration,

7 the person supervising the proper serving of sentences, right?

8 A. No. Savo never punished anyone, nor did he ever issue orders to

9 anyone to punish someone.

10 Q. I think you have misunderstood my question, sir. Let me rephrase

11 it. He was the one checking the serving of sentences of prisoners so that

12 nobody would serve sentence too long or too short, right? He was

13 supervising the serving of the sentences?

14 A. Do you mean before the war?

15 Q. Yes, yes. We are talking about before the war.

16 A. For a while he worked as the clerk for convicted persons, and then

17 he got a degree in law and then he got their details from them, and then

18 he talked to the rehabilitation officers, and then he went to see the

19 warden with all of that, Radojica Tesovic.

20 Q. So Mr. Todovic would keep the file on the convicts, right?

21 A. Until the war broke out, for a while. Later on, I think Lazar

22 Divljan took this over.

23 Q. And he would also assign prisoners for work, right? He was

24 involved in this work duties before the war - I'm talking about before the

25 war - right?

Page 6131

1 A. Before the war. Savo could not be the one who would say. It was

2 a commission that would assign prisoners according to their education and

3 work abilities.

4 Q. But Mr. Todovic had dealings with this commission, right? Because

5 he was the clerk for the convicts.

6 A. He was a clerk, but then there was the head also of the

7 rehabilitation service, and then there were the rehabilitation officers,

8 and then there was the psychologist and then there was the education

9 expert, all these people.

10 Q. Yes. Mr. Savo Todovic, before the war, would be involved in the

11 release process of convicts, right?

12 A. Savo could not participate.

13 Q. What actually did he do in relation to the convicts? Can you list

14 it to us? Before the war. We are talking always before the war.

15 A. They gathered details as to what kind of criminal record the

16 convict had and also how much more time he had to serve, and things like

17 that. And then all these papers would be gathered together and then this

18 would be sent to the commission, and then sometimes people would send this

19 to court or sometimes to the justice ministry in Sarajevo.

20 Q. Isn't that what he actually also did during the war in relation to

21 convicts and detainees? Didn't he keep the files on all these inmates?

22 A. No, he couldn't. No. All of that is scattered about. I tell

23 you, all the files were all over the floor. For these nine convicts, we

24 couldn't find their files.

25 Q. I was not only talking about the nine convicts, I was talking

Page 6132

1 about the detainees. There were files on the detainees, right, the Muslim

2 detainees and the Serbs?

3 A. I don't know about Muslim files. I don't know that there were

4 any.

5 Q. Look at the sheet of paper in front of you. You see this name

6 list, and you, on this list, also see the person 1 -- 137. Do you see the

7 number 137?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. And you know this person? The name is next to the number. You

10 know this person, right?

11 A. If this is the person I mean, that's [redacted]. I think

12 he worked in the KP Dom before the war, if that's him. If that's not him,

13 then I don't know who it is.

14 Q. This person, I must remind you not to use the name because then we

15 have to redact your -- the record.

16 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. Did he actually mention the name there?

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, he did.

18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, we'll get it redacted. The transcript didn't

19 pick it up. They've got a circumflex there.


21 Q. This person was [redacted], right?

22 A. I can't remember the man.

23 Q. This person 137 approached you and inquired why he hadn't been

24 interrogated yet, right? Do you recall this now?

25 A. I can't remember because I can't remember that person.

Page 6133













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Page 6134

1 Q. Did anybody ever approach you and inquire why he wasn't

2 interrogated yet?

3 A. Nobody approached me. Maybe many people asked me whether anybody

4 would be questioning them, and I said, "I have no idea whatsoever,"

5 because that didn't fall within our province of work. It wasn't up to us

6 to have anybody questioned or anyone else from the KP Dom wasn't involved

7 in that kind of thing either.

8 Q. If someone asked you whether he would be questioned, you inquired

9 and looked into books or lists, didn't you, to give an answer to this

10 person?

11 A. I wouldn't ask anyone, nor did I have any notebooks that I would

12 be keeping on them. That wasn't up to us. If the military wanted to

13 interrogate someone, they would ask for that person by name. There were

14 80 per cent of them that were not interrogated.

15 Q. I was not implying that you had any notebook, but you knew who had

16 it and where you could check, right?

17 A. I didn't know who had one either.

18 Q. You never told this person 137 that you had looked up in the books

19 and found out that he would be going to be transferred?

20 A. No. I can't remember this man at all.

21 Q. And unrelated to this man, did you ever tell anybody that you

22 checked for him in the books and he would be transferred?

23 A. No, never, no one.

24 Q. In the KP Dom there were lists, lists with the names of Muslim

25 detainees, right?

Page 6135

1 A. I don't know that there were lists anywhere unless the military

2 had them. In the KP Dom, there weren't any.

3 Q. I was not asking you who had the list. I was asking you, in the

4 KP Dom, were there ever any lists? Were there ever any lists used, no

5 matter who made them?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. When the guards called out people from the rooms, especially

8 Muslim detainees, they had a list, hadn't they?

9 A. When we would get a list, that was from the command to Savo, Savo

10 to the duty officer, then the duty officer would phone us, and then he'd

11 give us this little piece of paper with the names of persons we were

12 supposed to inform about something.

13 Q. How do you know that Savo got this list from the command?

14 A. The military came. They would come from the command, the

15 military, whenever somebody had to be taken. That's the way it happened.

16 Q. How did Savo get the list?

17 A. The military would come from the command and go to Savo's office.

18 I don't know how he got the list. I guess it was that way.

19 Q. Did you ever see how a military person gave such a list to Savo?

20 A. I never saw that.

21 Q. You said that Mr. Todovic was appointed by the military, but

22 everybody else was assigned for war assignment by the military, right?

23 A. As for us, we knew our military assignments before the war, and we

24 know that after the war also, in terms of the KP Dom and where we should

25 work. As for the administration, I have no idea whatsoever what they were

Page 6136

1 supposed to do and what they did.

2 Q. Mr. Savo Todovic was involved in the exchange of detainees, right,

3 Muslim detainees?

4 A. Well, I came up from Josanica once. There were trucks there. I

5 did not see Savo. They were trucks, and prisoners were going into them.

6 And I asked Savo the next day where they were being taken to, and then

7 Savo said for prison. Where for an exchange? They were taken towards

8 Celebici-Konjic in order to exchange Serbs for Muslims. That's the only

9 thing he said to me.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, you speak very quickly. You are making it

11 difficult again for the interpreters. Try and slow down a little bit,

12 please.


14 Q. Within the prison hierarchy, where was Mr. Todovic? Was he the

15 deputy of Mr. Krnojelac, the warden?

16 A. He was not the deputy warden, nor did he have anything to do with

17 the warden.

18 Q. How do you know that?

19 A. Because Savo was appointed by the military, whereas the warden, on

20 the other hand, was struggling for the factory, for the economic part.

21 Q. Sir, you have seen this list, this list where everybody is

22 actually listed as a soldier, including Mr. Todovic, Mr. Rasevic, you, and

23 the warden. This distinction that you make between Savo Todovic and

24 Mr. Krnojelac, you cannot explain that, right?

25 A. If we were on positions, on military positions that month, all of

Page 6137

1 us who were on the list, then who would have taken care of the KP Dom if

2 we had all left? Who would have been there to protect the Muslims? And

3 there are people on that list also who never worked at the KP Dom.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

5 show the witness again P446.

6 A. They were only assigned by the hospital. The doctors were

7 assigned to come to the KP Dom to work, and if all these people who were

8 on the list had gone to their positions according to the list, then who

9 would have stayed back there to work? And there are people here who were

10 never on the front line.

11 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I wonder whether you have

12 squeezed everything you can out of P446. We are going to have to, in the

13 end, decide what the purpose of that document was. It clearly assists the

14 Prosecution case in some ways and not in others. It's not going to be of

15 very much assistance for us, arguing this with a witness who cannot give

16 us any information as to how the document came into existence.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, but I only -- because the witness said

18 there are people on the list who were not in the KP Dom, but he has now

19 explained that it was just the other way around. These people -- he's

20 referring to people who were not on the front line. So it is now clear to

21 me. It was a misunderstanding.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Fine.


24 Q. Sir, you said during the examination-in-chief, you mentioned that

25 you -- when you were replaced by another guard, you would inform him

Page 6138

1 verbally about everything of importance. Didn't you have the duty to

2 write occurrences into a logbook?

3 A. We would tell each other verbally. If it was required, the

4 officer on duty kept a record of -- for the KP Dom, but these notebooks,

5 once used up, were thrown away.

6 Q. But you kept logbooks? You made notes into logbooks at your duty

7 post, right?

8 A. I wasn't the duty officer but we kept a record of numbers. For

9 instance, we would make a note that five Muslims were being taken to work,

10 to the garage, or we would write down that two Serbs were taken out to

11 work. That's the kind of record we kept.

12 Q. What about the daily -- or rather each evening, the roll calls in

13 the rooms where the detainees were? You had these roll calls, right?

14 A. There were no roll calls, only lineups, and we would just note

15 that there were 65 people in one room, so many people in another room, and

16 that's it.

17 Q. And did you write these figures into a notebook or a list, or what

18 did you do?

19 A. We would report to the duty officer. Whether the duty officer

20 kept a record of it, I don't know.

21 Q. But when you were in these rooms, lining up the detainees, did you

22 just -- didn't you write the figures down on a piece of paper?

23 A. I had a piece of paper. There was a room monitor in front of the

24 detainees and he would tell me how many people there were in the room. I

25 would count them. I would write down the number on my piece of paper. I

Page 6139

1 would tell the duty officer how many people there were, and then I would

2 throw away that piece of paper.

3 Q. And it was visible that detainees disappeared throughout the year

4 1992, right? It was visible from these figures.

5 A. Well, the army, when they came, they would ask for certain people

6 according to a list, and whoever worked in the compound would take these

7 people who were required to the gates, and we know nothing of what

8 happened beyond the gate.

9 Q. But you noticed that detainees, Muslim detainees, disappeared,

10 right?

11 A. Of course I noticed.

12 Q. Mr. Rasevic took notice as well, right? He saw the figures.

13 A. I cannot guarantee about Rasevic.

14 Q. Mr. Rasevic, as the guard commander, checked the duty officer's

15 notebook, didn't he? That is one of his jobs, right?

16 A. He could have examined them. Anyone who entered the duty

17 officer's room could have examined these records, any one of us who were

18 in charge of that.

19 Q. The prison administration keeps track of movements of detainees,

20 right? They keep track of what is going on with their detainees.

21 A. The prison administration wasn't so much in charge of the

22 Muslims. Those Muslims were only taken care of in so far as they were

23 given something to eat and it was seen to it that they had everything in

24 their rooms. The army had all the say with respect to the Muslims.

25 Q. Sir, you make -- you make these lineup calls, you write down the

Page 6140

1 figures related to the detainees present, the duty officer writes it down

2 in a book belonging to the KP Dom, and Mr. Rasevic, the guard commander,

3 checks the book, right? Isn't that how it works in a prison, no matter

4 who from outside has a say in this?

5 A. I cannot answer to this reply at all. I told you 100 times, as

6 far as the Muslims were concerned, the army communicated with Savo. As

7 far as the Serbs and the administration were concerned, Krnojelac was in

8 charge.

9 Q. Mr. Rasevic, the guard commander, is part of the KP Dom staff,

10 right?

11 A. He was our chief. He didn't accompany us to our positions on the

12 front line.

13 Q. And the guard commander is subordinate to the warden, right?

14 A. No.

15 Q. To whom is Mr. Rasevic -- was Mr. Rasevic subordinate? Not to

16 Todovic, right? Not to Todovic?

17 A. No. He wasn't under Todovic either.

18 Q. You mentioned that you had to write down which detainee goes

19 outside to work, outside of the KP Dom to work. Where did you make these

20 notes?

21 A. There was a sheet of paper where it was written down which Muslims

22 were out to work. There was approval for them and Savo Todovic signed

23 this paper approving that so and so was allowed to work in the metalwork

24 shop, and we were to take out Serbs, if they were willing to work.

25 Q. And Mr. Savo Todovic also signed, approved this, right? He

Page 6141













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Page 6142

1 approved work duties for both -- or for all inmates of the KP Dom, right?

2 A. No, not for all of them.

3 Q. Who approved the others? Who approved the work duties of the

4 Serbs?

5 A. Well, for a while there was a rehabilitation officer and Serbs who

6 didn't want to go on the front line could go to work, so I would take a

7 particular man to go to work and bring him back. Serbs usually cleaned

8 the compound, swept the courtyard. They would accompany one of the

9 drivers to Belgrade if -- to town, sorry, if necessary.

10 Q. This rehabilitation officer, who was that? What is the name of

11 this person?

12 A. His name was Aleksandar Zecevic, Aleksije.

13 Q. Yes. Sir, according to the lists of workers and the staff members

14 in the KP Dom - it's P3 - we have an Aleksije Zecevic listed here, and it

15 says that in the year 1992, he was only there for roughly two weeks, that

16 is, from the 25th of April to the 4th of May. In these other months it

17 was Savo Todovic, right, who approved this?

18 A. Zecevic was absent at that time. His family was in Serbia and he

19 left.

20 Q. Yes. That was not my question. When he was gone, it was

21 Mr. Todovic who also approved the work duties for the Serbs detained,

22 right?

23 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's not written

25 anywhere. It turns out that it's written here in this sheet of paper,

Page 6143

1 because my colleague was presenting this piece of paper indicating what

2 was written there and then she seemed to continue to say that Savo Todovic

3 was approving these work duties, misleading the witness in that way.

4 JUDGE HUNT: I don't think there was anything misleading about

5 that. She is entitled to ask him that as a question. If he misunderstood

6 that as having been stated, well, you would be right, but I certainly

7 wouldn't interpret the question in that way.

8 You proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


10 Q. You didn't answer, Mr. Ivanovic.

11 A. Will you please repeat it?

12 Q. After Mr. Zecevic wasn't there any more, that is, beginning May he

13 was gone, it was Savo Todovic who approved all work duties no matter who

14 it was?

15 A. I don't know about Savo Todovic doing that for Serbs.

16 Q. Behind the metal door that led from the compound -- from the yard

17 into the administration building, wasn't there an officer placed -- a

18 guard placed who made notes when detainees were taken out, out of the

19 KP Dom for work duties?

20 A. The guard was there at the gate. When we would release the

21 Muslims from their rooms, they would go on their own to breakfast and from

22 breakfast they would go on their own to the gate. The gate would be

23 opened by the guard and then those of them who worked in the metalwork

24 shop would go to do their work.

25 Q. Yes. And a note would be made that they left the compound,

Page 6144

1 right?

2 A. Yes. A number would be written down, how many people had left to

3 work. And there was a list at the gate while they were working.

4 Q. And when the detainees returned, they would also be checked and it

5 was noted that they were back, right?

6 A. They were coming back from 9.30 to 10.00 from breakfast. Of

7 course they would be searched before they left the compound. And then

8 they would come around 3.00 to lunch and after that to the dormitory.

9 Q. When detainees would have been taken out and not returned, it

10 would have been -- it would have been noticed immediately, right? It

11 would be obvious.

12 A. Well, somebody noticed; others didn't. The one who worked at the

13 gate, the duty officer, could notice, but many people didn't know at all

14 that they were taken out. Those who were not on duty then were not aware

15 of it.

16 Q. The detainees worked. You mentioned the workplaces where the

17 detainees worked in and out of KP Dom, and you said that the orders came

18 from the military command, right?

19 A. Well, depending on the needs of the farm, I suppose the farm

20 approached the army requesting Muslims to be taken out to work. That

21 regularly happened.

22 Q. So the KP Dom administration would inform the army about their

23 needs for workers in whatever section of Drina and then they would work

24 there with approval of the military command, right?

25 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

Page 6145

1 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] The witness said that they would

3 approach and ask that Muslims work. And then the next question follows

4 that they informed the army about their needs for workers. So the witness

5 clearly answered this in his previous answer and then his answer is

6 twisted. This distinction may not be important to the witness and he may

7 answer yes, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid the distinction doesn't appear to be very

9 clear to me either. He said -- I'm sorry. He agreed that the farm

10 approached the army requesting Muslims to be taken out for work. Now,

11 that means that the army would have to deal with the KP administration as

12 to what Muslims would be taken out to work.

13 Is your problem simply that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff may have reversed

14 the order in which it happened, that the army would first ask the

15 administration for Muslims to work out on the farm? Is that the problem

16 you have?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness said that

18 the administration, as far as he knows, approached the army and asked,

19 requested, and then the conclusion implied in the following question was

20 that the administration informed the army that they should work.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't understand what the

22 importance of it is, but let's ask the question again to try and avoid any

23 problem about it.

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I will go --

25 JUDGE HUNT: I think you might have to go back several questions

Page 6146

1 and get it cleared up with the witness as to who asked whom, and if you do

2 that, I think that the objection would be overcome.


4 Q. And I will be very concrete and take the workshop, the metalwork

5 shop. That probably makes it easier for you, sir.

6 Mr. Goljanin, the head of the metalwork shop knew how many workers

7 he would need for a specific work, right?

8 A. There was one group which permanently worked with Relja at the

9 metalwork shop, with Relja Goljanin. It was never one man and then a

10 different man. It was a permanent group of, I think, about six people,

11 maybe eight.

12 Q. Before this group was formed -- let's start at the beginning.

13 Mr. Goljanin knows he needs ten workers for his metalwork shop. He

14 approaches the administration in the KP Dom, his chief. That is

15 Mr. Krnojelac, right?

16 A. No. He would approach Savo about labour because it was Savo who

17 assigned Muslims for labour.

18 Q. And Mr. Savo informs the military command in Velecevo that he

19 needs -- the workshop needs ten workers, Muslim workers, right?

20 A. It was probably done in conjunction with them. Nobody could

21 assign Muslims to work without the consent of the military command. They

22 couldn't have done anything.

23 Q. But the staff, the KP Dom administration, they would select the

24 detainees who could do the job, right? They had the information who could

25 work in the metalwork shop as a welder, for instance?

Page 6147

1 A. They worked according to their skills. A director cannot work as

2 a welder, or as a mechanic. It was known who had which sort of skills and

3 what kind of education.

4 Q. So the army would approve ten Muslim detainees to work but the

5 administration would select who would go to the metalwork shop. Is that

6 how it was?

7 A. Savo selected the people. Savo goes and asks, "Are there any

8 mechanics? Are there any lathe operators, welders?" And we all knew

9 those were all people from Foca. Foca is not a big city. We knew who had

10 what sort of training. We knew them and they knew us.

11 Q. And these people that Mr. Savo selected, they would do the work,

12 and the military command would not actually get the -- their names,

13 right? They wouldn't need the names.

14 A. Well, I don't know whether the military command had their names

15 there. All I know is there was an approval at the gate, because nobody

16 forced them to work. They voluntarily --

17 Q. Sir, we are not talking about the character of the work. We are

18 talking now about the system, how it worked, as such. Do you recall that

19 on one occasion, workers that were assigned to this work, working in a

20 metal shop, were taken away for an exchange and disappeared in summer

21 1992, and Mr. Goljanin was there without his workers and complained? Do

22 you recall this?

23 A. I don't recall that at all.

24 Q. You said that the military command approved when detainees --

25 Muslim detainees worked. Their approval was only needed when they worked

Page 6148

1 outside of the KP Dom, right?

2 A. There was the approval for them to work when they were going to

3 work outside the Dom. That was the approval from Savo, and their

4 approval.

5 Q. And when the Serb detainees that had violations -- had violated

6 the military laws, it was the same thing? If they wanted to work outside,

7 it had to be approved by the military, right?

8 A. Serb detainees, the military police came every morning to fetch

9 them. They would bring a piece of paper that they were taking offenders

10 to work, and then they would bring them back after work, back to the Dom.

11 Q. Detainees worked -- Muslim detainees worked on Mr. Krnojelac's

12 house, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac wanted these detainees to work on his house, right?

15 A. I don't know that Krnojelac wanted it. There was approval from

16 the executive committee of the town that the roof on Krnojelac's house was

17 to be repaired. Then they asked for skilled workers. Five or six men

18 went out there, and I don't know how long they worked.

19 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn now until 2.30.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.






Page 6149













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Page 6150

1 --- On resuming at 2.30.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, before the break you mentioned the detainees that

5 worked on the house of Mr. Krnojelac, and you said, "I don't know that

6 Krnojelac wanted it. There was approval from the executive committee of

7 the town that the roof of Krnojelac's house was to be repaired. Then they

8 asked for skilled workers. Five or six men went out there, and I don't

9 know how long they worked."

10 How do you know that the executive committee approved the work on

11 the house?

12 A. Approval was given at the gate.

13 Q. What does that mean? Did people from the executive committee come

14 to the KP Dom and approve?

15 A. I don't know about that. I know that there would be approval as

16 this approval to have the roof on Milorad Krnojelac's house repaired.

17 There were no Serbs, so then it was Muslims. And then Savo Todovic signed

18 this permit through the military, through the executive council.

19 Q. Throughout your testimony you said that the military command

20 approved the use of detainees for work outside the KP Dom, and now you say

21 in this particular case it was the executive -- the executive council or

22 committee. You don't know exactly who approved what, right?

23 A. For me the executive council and the military worked in

24 cooperation working out war assignments.

25 Q. That detainees worked on the Krnojelac house was actually in the

Page 6151

1 interest of Mr. Krnojelac and only in his interest, right?

2 A. I don't know about that, about whose interest it was in.

3 Q. Sir, were you on guard duty on the 8th of July, 1993, when

4 Mr. Zekovic escaped?

5 A. I was not.

6 Q. Where were you?

7 A. Probably at home.

8 Q. When Mr. Zekovic escaped, all guards were called into the KP Dom,

9 right? It was an alert, an alarm situation, wasn't it?

10 A. There was a state of alert, but I probably wasn't there because I

11 was in the village. So I could not get in contact with the KP Dom.

12 Q. Were you in the KP Dom the next morning?

13 A. If I worked, I was there.

14 Q. Were you present when Mr. Zekovic was captured and brought back to

15 the KP Dom?

16 A. I found Zekovic in an isolation cell.

17 Q. Mr. Zekovic had been beaten as a punishment for his escape,

18 right?

19 A. Nobody got a hold of Zekovic at the gate or in the compound.

20 Q. My question was: Mr. Zekovic had been beaten as a punishment for

21 his escape. Was he beaten or was he not beaten?

22 A. He was not beaten. There were no injuries, no visible injuries,

23 and he hadn't been beaten either.

24 Q. But you were not present, not when he escaped and not when he was

25 brought in, right?

Page 6152

1 A. I was not present, but I saw him in the isolation cell.

2 Q. But you could not see whether anybody got hold of Mr. Zekovic at

3 the gate or in the compound, right?

4 A. I could not see, but I believe that no one touched him.

5 Q. So you make assumptions, right?

6 A. Nobody beat him for sure. We don't know about outside the

7 KP Dom.

8 Q. Mr. Lisica was beaten as well because he was a friend of

9 Mr. Zekovic, right?

10 A. Lisica was in the isolation cell when they locked them up in the

11 isolation cell, but nobody beat him.

12 Q. Before he was taken there he was beaten, right?

13 A. Well, no. It's not correct that they beat him.

14 Q. Look at the list, please, the list of names in front of you. The

15 person 73, you see this name here on the list? Number 73.

16 A. Yes, yes, yes, I can see it.

17 Q. And you know this person, right?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. He was beaten because he was the prisoner in charge of the room in

20 which Mr. Zekovic was, right?

21 A. He was not beaten up either.

22 Q. Members of the work group with whom Mr. Zekovic worked, and the

23 person 73, were locked up in the isolation cells for various times as a

24 punishment for the escape of Mr. Zekovic, right?

25 A. Number 73 was never in an isolation cell.

Page 6153

1 Q. And detainees, all Muslim detainees, got their food rations

2 reduced as a punishment for the escape of Mr. Zekovic, right?

3 A. That is not right.

4 Q. When Mr. Zekovic had been captured, he was presented in the yard

5 to all Muslim detainees, right? Is that correct?

6 A. They took Zekovic out so that he would tell them why he escaped.

7 I was present when Savo asked him, "Why did you escape?" And he said that

8 he missed his wife and children.

9 Q. Mr. Todovic gave a speech warning anyone else to do that again, to

10 escape, right? Something like this?

11 A. Todovic made a speech, and he said to Zekovic, "What would have

12 happened if somebody had killed you from the military, wherever they might

13 have caught you, in town, whatever? What did you need that for? Why did

14 you escape?" And then he asked everyone, "Does anybody beat you or

15 mistreat you or is there a lack of food?" And then they all spoke as one,

16 saying that nobody beat them, nobody mistreated them and that there was no

17 lack of food.

18 Q. The Serb prisoners were not in the yard when that speech was

19 given, right? The Serb prisoners of all the categories? It was only the

20 Muslim?

21 A. That's not right. All the Serb prisoners were in their rooms and

22 the Muslims were in their rooms.

23 Q. When this speech was given, the Muslim detainees were in the yard,

24 gathered in the yard; is that correct?

25 A. They were in the yard, and after the speech, they all went to

Page 6154

1 their rooms, and Zekovic and Lisica went to an isolation cell.

2 Q. And while the Muslim detainees were in the yard being addressed by

3 Mr. Todovic, the Serb prisoners were in their rooms, they were not in the

4 yard; is that correct?

5 A. Possibly, someone might have been in the yard but they were in the

6 rooms.

7 Q. All senior staff of the KP Dom was in the yard as well when

8 Mr. Todovic made the speech, weren't they?

9 A. No one was there, only the guards and Todovic.

10 Q. Mr. Krnojelac was there in the yard next to Mr. Todovic. Didn't

11 you see him?

12 A. Krnojelac came by from the factory.

13 Q. What do you mean by "came by"? He was just passing?

14 A. Krnojelac came by from the factory in order to get to the gate.

15 He did not stop there at all.

16 Q. Sir, it was not the only alarm situation that you had in the KP

17 Dom. You had another alert situation, hadn't you, in 1992?

18 A. This was not a state of alert either. It was only that we --

19 actually the guards went to look for Zekovic until a man found him and

20 until he was brought to the KP Dom.

21 Q. You say it was not an alarm situation when Zekovic escaped?

22 Wasn't the staff gathered?

23 A. Well, who was at the Dom and in preparations, they went up, they

24 thought that they would find him there, but they didn't. And then they

25 came back, and then he went further off, and then some old man found him

Page 6155

1 in some village. And then he reported that to the police, and then the

2 police reported that to the KP Dom. And how he was transferred to the KP

3 Dom, I don't know.

4 Q. And the staff, the entire staff of the KP Dom, at least those who

5 were on duty, they were afraid, they feared consequences for themselves

6 because Zekovic could escape. Wasn't that the situation?

7 A. Zekovic did not escape from a single guard. Zekovic escaped from

8 his working place.

9 Q. Did the guards or the KP Dom staff, the senior management,

10 whoever, fear consequences for this escape, that it could happen at all?

11 A. It was raining. People didn't pay attention. Rumour has it that

12 he put his hood on his head and passed through town, and there was no need

13 for the staff of the KP Dom to fear anything.

14 Q. Mr. Krnojelac left the KP Dom soon after this, right?

15 A. I don't remember when Krnojelac left the KP Dom. I can't remember

16 the month or the day.

17 Q. Sir, in 1992, did you have an alarm exercise, all staff?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Did you have any emergency situation or alarm situation for real

20 reasons, for instance, the war, in 1992?

21 A. We never had any emergencies at the KP Dom.

22 Q. Did you ever lock in -- suddenly lock in detainees, close all

23 doors, and put on the war gears? That means full arms.

24 A. No, I never did.

25 Q. While you were a guard in the KP Dom, you received detainees,

Page 6156

1 Muslim detainees, at the entrance, right? Especially in April 1992; is

2 that correct?

3 A. If anybody happened to be on his shift at the gate, then he had to

4 bring them into the compound.

5 Q. Yes. And you were at the gate in April 1992 and received Muslim

6 detainees, didn't you?

7 A. Well, I probably was.

8 Q. Have a look at the sheet of paper in front of you, and you see

9 there the last name with number 172. You know this person?

10 A. I don't remember that person.

11 Q. Look at number 76 in the middle of this page. Did you know this

12 person? Did you receive him?

13 A. I did not receive him, and I know him well enough.

14 Q. Did you receive Mr. Izet Causevic?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You know Mr. Causevic?

17 A. I can't remember. I don't know him. I know Causevic.

18 Q. Do you know the person 100 --

19 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

21 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I do apologise for interrupting, but

22 I think that this is important. The transcript says "Causevic." However,

23 the interpretation I received, and I imagine the witness too, was

24 "Cosovic." So in order to avoid any contradiction, the first question

25 was Izet Causevic, and then he said no, that he didn't know him, and then

Page 6157













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6158

1 there was a correction in the interpretation stating "Cosovic" and then he

2 said yes, yes, and then he said that he knows Cosovic. However, in the

3 transcript it says "Causevic" consistently. However, I heard in the

4 interpretation "Cosovic" at first and I imagine that's what the witness

5 heard too, at first.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Can you give us the correction of the word you say it

7 should be, the spelling of it?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It should be the correct spelling in the

9 transcript. Causevic, with an a-u.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Is that the one you want?


12 JUDGE HUNT: "Causevic."

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: "Causevic."

14 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Well, he says he didn't know Causevic and

15 then he said, "I know," and I gather that was Cosovic, which is spelled

16 C-o-s-o-v-i-c. Is that right?

17 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that's why I reacted,

18 because at first he said Cosovic, C-o-s-o-v-i-c. That's when he said he

19 didn't know the person. Then when the interpretation was corrected, when

20 he heard "Causevic," C-a-u-s-e-v-i-c, then he said, "Yes, I know

21 Causevic."

22 JUDGE HUNT: And it's Causevic you want to ask him about?


24 JUDGE HUNT: C-a-u-s-e-v-i-c.


Page 6159

1 JUDGE HUNT: Right. We've got it straight. Thanks, Mr. Bakrac.


3 Q. Do you know Izet Causevic?

4 A. I know Izet Causevic , nicknamed Caki.

5 Q. Did you receive him when he came to the KP Dom for the first time,

6 end of April 1992?

7 A. I can't remember. There were three Causevic brothers.

8 Q. They were all in the KP Dom?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is one of them [redacted], the one who came with a little

11 girl?

12 A. I don't know about the little girl, but [redacted] was there

13 and his two brothers.

14 Q. Did you receive the person 198? Have a look at the list. We

15 don't want to use the name. 198.

16 A. I cannot remember. I can't remember many names. I can hardly

17 remember anybody's name when they came in groups.

18 Q. This person 198 came together with a man from Gorazde, and he

19 arrived end of April 1992. Do you recall that?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And you took him to the isolation cell. Do you recall that?

22 A. I do not recall that.

23 Q. And Mr. 198 was so upset about what was going on with him that he

24 vomited, and you gave him a pill. Do you recall this now?

25 A. I don't remember that either.

Page 6160

1 Q. Did you occasionally help Muslim detainees when they felt sick?

2 A. I helped as much as I could.

3 Q. Mr. Rasim Taranin was a friend of yours, right?

4 A. Well, our children played soccer. We knew each other, and our

5 children went to competitions together.

6 Q. And when he was arrested and taken to the KP Dom, you received

7 him, didn't you?

8 A. I can't remember that.

9 Q. Do you remember that in the presence of Mr. Koroman, the other

10 guard, you said to your friend Taranin, "Turk, where did they catch you?

11 Fuck all the gods you got"? Do you recall you said that to your friend?

12 A. I never called anybody a Turk or a Muslim. I called everybody by

13 name.

14 Q. You may have used it to disguise your friendship. Would you

15 behave rude to Muslim detainees to disguise your friendship with them?

16 A. I wasn't afraid of anyone, as far as my Muslim friends are

17 concerned, nor did I hide their cooperation from anyone.

18 Q. What do you mean "hide their cooperation"? What do you mean with

19 their --

20 A. I mean I wasn't afraid of anyone. There were Muslims, and one

21 Muslim gave me 45 million to take to his wife, and I did that.

22 Q. Look at your list again. There is the person 69 in front of you,

23 the list, 69. Do you know this person?

24 A. A bit. I can't say with 100 per cent certainty.

25 Q. Did you receive this person on his arrival in the KP Dom and take

Page 6161

1 him to a room, beginning of May 1992?

2 A. I'm saying that I cannot remember exactly who I received by name.

3 Q. Let me jog your memory further. The room where you took him was

4 empty. There was not a blanket in there, nothing. And you said to this

5 person, "You have no blankets. You have nothing. You just have a carpet

6 there." And you told him to just take the carpet as a blanket. Do you

7 recall that?

8 A. It was never that way. That's not true at all.

9 Q. These people that we just discussed were citizens from Foca,

10 citizens you knew, right?

11 A. I don't know half of them from here.

12 Q. But you already mentioned Mr. Safet Avdic, and you said that he

13 was addressed as "director" when he was detained, right?

14 A. Well, I didn't know Safet either until he got to the KP Dom.

15 Q. But you knew that it was director Avdic that was detained, when he

16 was detained?

17 A. I heard about it from my friends, that Avdic was director of the

18 forestry company.

19 Q. And Dr. Berberkic was also detained, and Dr. Torlak, right?

20 A. Dr. Berberkic is a neighbour of mine, and we knew each other from

21 the days of our youth and we saw each other even after his imprisonment.

22 And I knew Torlak as a doctor.

23 Q. And there was also Dr. 111? You see the name next to the number

24 111? You have already mentioned him as being detained.

25 A. He was there too. He was detained.

Page 6162

1 Q. There were even several of your former Muslim guard colleagues

2 there among the detainees, right? And if you look at your list, they are

3 listed under 138 and 139, right?

4 A. It is correct that they were there too.

5 Q. And there were sick people detained in the KP Dom, such as Enes

6 Adzic and Sefko Kubat, who actually later died because of their ulcers,

7 right?

8 A. I knew Enes Adzic, but I didn't find him there, nor did I see him

9 die. As for Sefko Kubat, I knew him and I know that he died because of

10 his ulcer. He was exhausted all the time, also while he was a free man

11 and when he came to the KP Dom.

12 Q. Those people that we just discussed, and many, many more that you

13 knew and saw in the KP Dom, they were not criminals, right?

14 A. I don't know. When the shooting started, everybody was on their

15 own side, and the Serbs were on their side.

16 Q. These people that we just discussed, including old ones, sick

17 ones, they were detained because they were Muslims. They were

18 unfortunately of the ethnic group that was on the other side. That was

19 their only mistake, right?

20 A. I don't know why they were detained. Logically, because they were

21 found where -- carrying weapons because they had set off to fight.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I don't know whether there is any

23 part of the Prosecution case that the ordinary procedures had not been

24 followed that were discussed at the Celebici appeal judgement. If it is,

25 this is a witness I think you should ask those questions of. He may have

Page 6163

1 had nothing to do with it, but he may be able to help you, and if he can,

2 I think you should ask him questions about that.


4 JUDGE HUNT: He has said he doesn't know why they were detained

5 but he's made an assumption. I think you should take it further.


7 Q. When these detainees arrived --

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I come to this. I have a

9 special chapter.

10 JUDGE HUNT: As long as you're going to come to it, but having

11 raised the issue about why they were in custody, I thought I should remind

12 you that this is something that has to be investigated.


14 Q. Besides processing new arrivals through the entrance, you were

15 also on guard in the prisoners' quarters, right?

16 A. I was at the entrance to the building and they were in their

17 rooms.

18 Q. The Muslim detainees were locked in their room sets, right? They

19 couldn't move about in the prisoners' building from one floor to the

20 other, right?

21 A. The rooms were locked. In individual rooms there were two

22 dormitories and two additional rooms to be used as day rooms, and there

23 was a toilet as well.

24 Q. The Serb prisoners and the Serb detainees, they were not locked in

25 their rooms, they could move about in the prisoners' building; isn't that

Page 6164

1 correct?

2 A. Only the Serb convicts, the ones I mentioned before, the nine men,

3 were in opened rooms and the others were all locked up.

4 Q. The Serb convicts and the Serb soldiers that were detained, they

5 could walk in the yard, right throughout their detention, right?

6 A. Serb prisoners could not take a walk whenever they wanted, and the

7 others were always on their work posts, the convicts.

8 Q. The Serb detainees of all categories had regular visits throughout

9 their detention and throughout the years 1992 to 1994, right?

10 A. They could receive visitors but nobody could come to visit them

11 because they did not come from places on -- within our territory.

12 Q. What do you mean? Do you want to say that the Serb prisoners or

13 Serb detainees didn't receive visits?

14 A. I mean the convicts, they were from outside the territory of

15 Foca. Their families were far away and they couldn't come to visit,

16 whereas the others, the offenders, had sentences of up to 15 days at

17 most. They would serve the sentence and be released.

18 Q. These people received visits from their families, right?

19 A. Well, some did, some didn't. There was no reason to receive a

20 visitor if one was only there for 24 hours.

21 Q. Lazar Stojanovic, you know him, right?

22 A. Yes, I know him.

23 Q. And he received visits from his family throughout his time there,

24 right?

25 A. Lazar Stojanovic, when he was found guilty of this offence, he

Page 6165













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Page 6166

1 went to Bileca, to the military prison. I don't know which year they came

2 back. I think it was in the summer of 1993 that they came back from

3 Bileca.

4 Q. Sir, why do you refuse to answer my question? I had asked you if

5 he received visits?

6 A. Yes. He -- Lazar received visits, when he arrived from Bileca to

7 the Foca KP Dom.

8 Q. Before he went to Bileca, he also had visitors, his family members

9 came, whenever he was in Foca?

10 A. The public, military Prosecutor had to issue an order if a person

11 were to be allowed to receive visitors.

12 Q. The Muslim detainees received visitors only up to May, mid-May,

13 1992, and then for more than two years they had no family visits, right?

14 A. They received visits in April, and later there was simply no one

15 who could visit them.

16 Q. Sir, you sometimes had guard duties in the isolation and solitary

17 confinement complex, right?

18 A. That's building number 2, and on the ground floor there there are

19 isolation cells. I did work there.

20 Q. And you were on duty in January, February 1993 when the person 159

21 was brought in, right? Look at the list, please. You'll find there the

22 name of this person.

23 A. Where is that person?

24 Q. 159. It's in the middle, in the middle of the sheet.

25 A. Yes. Yes, I saw him.

Page 6167

1 Q. And when you saw him he was all bloody, wasn't he?

2 A. He was brought in also from Allah's road. He was caught somewhere

3 in the hills by the army. And he told me that he had climbed the truck

4 and then the soldiers started hitting him and kicking him and later

5 brought him to the KP Dom. The army ordered that he be placed in an

6 isolation cell so that they could interrogate him later. When I saw him

7 in the isolation cell he was really beaten up, but none of us, the staff

8 of the KP Dom, ever touched him.

9 Q. But he didn't receive medical help for his injuries, right?

10 A. I don't know about that day. I know that Gojko came later. He

11 gave him something. Whether he was taken up to the doctor, I don't know.

12 Q. You said that nobody else from the staff touched him. Didn't your

13 colleague Zoran Matovic beat him up on various occasions in this isolation

14 cell or in front of it?

15 A. I can't say that.

16 Q. You can't say that because you didn't see it or do you claim it

17 didn't happen?

18 A. I didn't see that, and I claim it didn't happen, because we were

19 not allowed to hit anyone within the compound.

20 Q. Who told you that you were not allowed to do that?

21 A. Mitar Rasevic did.

22 Q. When? Why did Mr. Rasevic remind you that detainees are not to be

23 beaten or mistreated? Why did he do that?

24 A. He ordered us that we must do our job professionally just as

25 before the war and that they -- we should all know our duties.

Page 6168

1 Q. When did he say that?

2 A. As soon as Muslims began to be brought in.

3 Q. Were you all gathered when he said that or can you explain the

4 circumstances?

5 A. He told the duty officer that we should pass it on, one to

6 another, that nobody should touch the prisoners, that we should only

7 provide security.

8 Q. Was that when you arrived and reported for duty in April?

9 A. As people started to arrive, Mitar later told us, "You shouldn't

10 touch them. It's not your job to interrogate them or to beat them."

11 Q. As the time went by, month by month, did he come back to this?

12 Did he ever order you later on not to beat, not to mistreat?

13 A. We didn't beat them. Whatever Muslims came to the KP Dom may have

14 been beaten up to the gate of the KP Dom but not past that gate.

15 Q. Sir, you mentioned a deaf mute person that you met in the KP Dom,

16 and you said he was from Ustikolina, right?

17 A. Right. There was Kunovac.

18 Q. Omer Kunovac?

19 A. Omer. I don't know his first name. Possibly.

20 Q. Yes. You said he was sick.

21 A. Yes, he was sick.

22 Q. He actually had been beaten up seriously and needed surgery,

23 right?

24 A. He wasn't beaten up at the KP Dom, nor did he leave his room.

25 Gojko came and consulted the doctor, and together with Dr. Ibro Karovic,

Page 6169

1 they decided what medicines to give him. And I accompanied the two of

2 them to the pharmacy of the KP Dom when we were going to fetch whatever

3 was needed.

4 Q. Mr. Kunovac needed urgent surgery because of internal injuries,

5 and he died actually very soon after. Isn't that the truth?

6 A. He did die, and I don't know what he needed.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's the person D-17.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. You mean the person referred to in D-17?

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Kunovac, the person Kunovac.

10 Q. Sir, Muslims were interrogated at the KP Dom, right?

11 A. Early in April there came some inspectors on army orders to

12 conduct interrogations.

13 Q. These interrogations were conducted in the administration building

14 during daytime and night-time, right?

15 A. They happened only during the day.

16 Q. You saw detainees return beaten from these interrogations, didn't

17 you?

18 A. There were no beatings.

19 Q. Did you stand guard on the second half of June 1992 around

20 Vidovdan?

21 A. From the 20th to the 25th of June I was paying memorial service to

22 my brother on the fortieth day of his death.

23 Q. Does that mean from the 20th to the 25th you were not in the

24 KP Dom?

25 A. I wasn't.

Page 6170

1 Q. But after the 25th you returned to work duty?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you stand guard during the nights, any of the nights from the

4 25th to beginning July?

5 A. Our shifts were 12 hours for a while, and then we had 24 hours'

6 rest. That was for a while. And then later, we worked for two days and

7 then we had the third day off. I couldn't say in which period we worked

8 this way.

9 Q. But my question was whether you stood guard during the nights

10 after the 25th until beginning July, especially on Vidovdan?

11 A. I don't remember about Vidovdan, but it's possible that I worked

12 nights.

13 Q. You should remember this period because it was a period of intense

14 beatings and killings, wasn't it?

15 A. I affirm that there were no killings or beatings at the KP Dom.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

17 show the witness a photo. It's a photo of -- it's in the binder, Schedule

18 C. It's Exhibit 55. And there are photos under the victims listed in

19 this schedule, Schedule C binder. And you all have these photos.

20 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

21 JUDGE HUNT: I don't, but it may be that they have been handed in

22 to the Chamber. Yes, Mr. Bakrac?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I must point out a

24 mistake in the transcript. 83, line 17, the question was, "There were

25 intensive -- intense beatings and killings, wasn't it?" And the witness

Page 6171

1 said, "There were no killings or beatings at the KP Dom. I affirm." I

2 suppose we will be listening to the audio tape but there is quite a

3 significant part of this sentence missing.

4 JUDGE HUNT: My recollection is that was the translation. It will

5 be checked, no doubt, against the tape.

6 Now, what is this photograph that we are about to have a session

7 on?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I want to show the witness the photo of Bico

9 Salem. Bico Salem, that's in the Schedule C, it's number --

10 JUDGE HUNT: But you asserted that we all had copies of it. When

11 were they handed in?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: They are in the Schedule C binder that you

13 all have.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm afraid, such is the bulk, that I have left the

15 Prosecution's documents behind. If it's put on the ELMO, we can share it.

16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's put on the ELMO, and I only have a few

17 photos actually in this binder, a few photos always listed under the name

18 of the specific witness, so you will have easy access to it.

19 JUDGE HUNT: But are they in evidence? That's the question.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, they are in evidence. The entire binder

21 is in evidence.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


24 Q. Sir, please have a look at the photo. Do you know this person?

25 A. I do.

Page 6172

1 Q. It's Bico Salem, the policeman, right?

2 A. Caterer, a caterer too.

3 Q. But he was detained in the KP Dom, right?

4 A. I didn't see him at the KP Dom. He wasn't in the compound.

5 Q. He was actually taken out in the night and he disappeared.

6 A. I don't know. I didn't see him in the compound and I don't know

7 whether he was taken out.

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: You can give that back to me. We will need

9 it for other photos. The next photo, it's Schedule C, number 7. Mr. Bico

10 was number 2. Number 7, Kemal Dzelilovic.

11 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, you know Professor Kemal Dzelilovic, right?

12 A. I know that man.

13 Q. And you saw him in the KP Dom, didn't you?

14 A. I saw him at the KP Dom.

15 Q. When did you see him for the last time?

16 A. I can't remember.

17 Q. He was taken out in this period that we just mentioned, in the

18 second half of June, for beatings, after which he disappeared, right?

19 A. I don't know when he was taken out or whether he was beaten up.

20 Q. But you know that he disappeared, right? You noticed that?

21 A. I saw that he was not in the compound.

22 Q. And you asked, didn't you? Didn't you ask your colleagues and

23 didn't they tell you that he was killed?

24 A. Nobody told me anything. Nor was I told that he had been killed.

25 I assert once again that he was not killed at the KP Dom.

Page 6173













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Page 6174

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Next person, please. The next person, Your

2 Honour, is a person C-9.

3 Q. You know Adil Granov, don't you?

4 A. No.

5 Q. No?

6 JUDGE HUNT: May we assume that's the person on the right-hand

7 side of the photograph?

8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, not -- yes.

9 Q. So you haven't seen him in KP Dom?

10 A. I didn't see him, and I don't know him.

11 Q. Do you know Halid Konjo?

12 A. I do.

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person, Your Honour, is not in Schedule

14 C. He is mentioned as an additional victim. And the photo is rather a

15 small -- it's a very small photo.

16 Q. It's hard to see it, sir, but this is Halid Konjo, right?

17 A. I know them as brothers but I didn't know which was which.

18 Q. He was in the KP Dom, this person that you just see, this Halid,

19 right?

20 A. He was at the KP Dom.

21 Q. What happened to him?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Do you know --

24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the next person is C-16.

25 Q. Do you know this person?

Page 6175

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know a Fuad Mandzo?

3 A. No.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next person is C-19.

5 Q. Do you know Nurko Nisic?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. The photo is blurred, it's not a good photo, but does this photo

8 show Nurko?

9 A. Not that I can see, but I did know Nurko Nisic. I can't say that

10 this is him.

11 Q. M'hm. Yes, thank you. Nurko Nisic was in the KP Dom. He was

12 detained, right?

13 A. He was.

14 Q. Yes. And he was also taken out for beating in this particular

15 period, around Vidovdan 1992, and he died, didn't he?

16 A. Not at the Dom. He was not beaten there.

17 Q. You even told Dr. Berberkic that Nurko Nisic was beaten and that

18 he died during the beating, didn't you?

19 A. It's not correct that I ever said that, nor did I know that he had

20 died.

21 Q. But you saw that he disappeared, right?

22 A. I saw that he wasn't there because I knew the man.

23 Q. And Mr. Nurko Nisic was not only taken out once, he was beaten

24 several times and everybody saw him with injuries in the yard. What about

25 you?

Page 6176

1 A. Nurko Nisic came from town with injuries, not from our

2 administration, not from our compound.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next persons are the Rikalo brothers,

4 C-21, 22 and 23.

5 Q. Do you know the Rikalo brothers?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you see these three young men in the KP Dom, the three young

8 men on the photo?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. Do you know Soro Seval?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have a look at this photo. Did you see this person in the

13 KP Dom?

14 A. I did not.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-24. Thank you.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.

17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The next photo is C-25.

18 Q. Do you know Tulek Kemal, the policeman?

19 A. Yes. Yes.

20 Q. He was detained in the KP Dom, right?

21 A. He was.

22 Q. He was kept in the isolation cell for an extended period of time,

23 right?

24 A. No.

25 Q. No? Where was he?

Page 6177

1 A. No.

2 Q. Where was he detained? On which room?

3 A. I can't remember which room, but he was never in an isolation

4 cell.

5 Q. And he disappeared from the KP Dom, right?

6 A. Well, we were told when he was taken out that he was going for an

7 exchange.

8 Q. When was he taken out?

9 A. I can't remember the date.

10 Q. The month?

11 A. Not the month either.

12 Q. In which particular group of exchange was he? Do you recall

13 that?

14 A. I think that he left in a group. I don't know which group. But I

15 know when I asked Savo about that group, where they were taken for an

16 exchange, and he said to Konjic. Now, whether it's that group or not, I

17 don't know.

18 Q. Did you actually see --

19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you for the photo.

20 Q. Did you actually see the -- someone from Konjic coming to the

21 KP Dom and taking Mr. Tulek Kemal and others away? Did you actually see

22 this?

23 A. Unknown soldiers were by the truck when they were putting them

24 into trucks. Our soldiers weren't there, at the entrance when the trucks

25 were there. I don't know. I said that I came by from my village - and I

Page 6178

1 said this before - and I asked Savo where they were taking them, and Savo

2 told me they took them to Konjic for an exchange, and I didn't ask any

3 other questions.

4 Q. Sir, do you know Vahida Dzemal?

5 A. I do. I do, I do.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-27.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


9 Q. That's his photo, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. He was detained in the KP Dom and you saw him there, right?

12 A. I didn't see him at the KP Dom.

13 Q. Do you know Zulfo Veiz?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's C-29.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


18 Q. Is this Zulfo Veiz?

19 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

20 Q. He was detained in the KP Dom, right?

21 A. He was.

22 Q. But he disappeared from the KP Dom, didn't he?

23 A. He wasn't at the KP Dom later and he wasn't killed there.

24 Q. Where was he killed?

25 A. Not at the KP Dom.

Page 6179

1 Q. He was beaten at the KP Dom, wasn't he, on several occasion --

2 occasions?

3 A. I don't think so.

4 Q. He was taken away in the second half of June 1992 for beatings and

5 he died then?

6 A. I know that he did not die at the KP Dom.

7 Q. How do you know that? How can you be sure? You were not there

8 from the 20th to the 25th. How can you be sure?

9 A. For those who died, we know where they were buried.

10 Q. Some of those who died after beatings or during beatings were

11 thrown in the Drina River, weren't they?

12 A. Nobody was thrown into the Drina, not that I saw any such thing.

13 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, we do not allege that you mistreated any detainee.

14 The witnesses who have testified here, the Prosecution witnesses, they

15 mention that you did not mistreat anybody.

16 Let us talk about some of your colleagues.

17 A. All right.

18 Q. Mr. Milenko Burilo: He was the guard who beat the most, right?

19 A. I assert once again that not a single guard beat anyone at the

20 KP Dom.

21 Q. Mr. Burilo used to carry a wooden leg of a chair that he used like

22 a baseball bat, right?

23 A. Burilo never carried that. He had a truncheon like I did, and he

24 didn't beat anyone. And many Muslims asked Burilo for cigarettes, and he

25 never refused them if ever he had cigarettes. As a matter -- as a matter

Page 6180

1 of fact, they never addressed him as "guard" but as "Busi."

2 Q. Zoran Matovic, your colleague --

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, Burilo -- Burilo is 56 in P3.

4 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


6 Q. Zoran Matovic. It's number 48. Zoran Matovic used to carry a

7 cable, about a half metre long, to beat detainees, didn't he?

8 A. No. Zoran never carried that. When I was working -- whenever

9 somebody worked on the same shift with me, no guards ever beat anyone.

10 Zoran worked with me. Burilo worked with me. No one ever beat anyone up.

11 Q. The guard Dragan Obrenovic, Obren, he --

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 46.

13 Q. This guard often was together on shift with Burilo, wasn't he?

14 A. Obrenovic. I am not a better person than Obrenovic at all. I did

15 not behave any better than Obrenovic. There's no need for me to lie. But

16 how come they are not ashamed to speak that way about Obrenovic?

17 Obrenovic would spend three hours with them in their dormitories,

18 as a matter of fact. He also gave them tobacco, cigarettes, as many as he

19 had.

20 Q. On Orthodox Christmas 1993, you were on guard duty, right?

21 A. I don't know whether I was on guard duty. I was at home.

22 Q. On this evening you had a discussion actually among you guards

23 that was overheard by detainees, and you were there with Obrenovic and

24 with Milomir Maric, nicknamed Mara. Do you recall that you had duty?

25 A. Possibly I was on duty, but I can't remember.

Page 6181













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14 and the English transcripts.












Page 6182

1 Q. And you had a discussion during which Maric said to Obrenovic,

2 "What do I care? I didn't beat anyone or kill anyone, you did." And you

3 were present when this was said, right?

4 A. I doubt it. We never considered Maric to be a serious man. As

5 for Obrenovic, I claim with 100 per cent certainty that Obrenovic never

6 pushed anyone with his hand let alone beat anyone.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I'm wondering, if you are going

8 to continue with this, which you are fully entitled to do, indeed I think

9 you're obliged to do it, whether at some stage the witness should be given

10 a warning that he may object to making any statement which tends to

11 incriminate himself.

12 I mean I realise you've told him that you are not suggesting he

13 was involved in any of this, but at some stage it may be reached that he

14 had sufficient knowledge of this and allowed it to go on, no doubt by his

15 presence, that he could be shown to be -- to having aided and abetted. In

16 this way, I think the witness perhaps should be warned. Of course, we can

17 still compel him to answer the question, but his answers can't then be

18 used against him.

19 Now, I don't know how far you're going on with this, but we seem

20 to be getting rather close to the position that if he answers yes to any

21 of these questions, he may be implicating himself.


23 JUDGE HUNT: Not in the actual beating, I emphasise, but for some

24 sort of complicity.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. I think I can stop at this point.

Page 6183

1 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not wanting you to stop. I just am raising this

2 because it's the first time during the course of this case where we've had

3 anybody who gets in close to the action, as it were.

4 Now, if you want to pursue the matter further, you should do so,

5 but I think I should warn the witness.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I think you should.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, sir, I should warn you that you are entitled to

8 object to answering any question if you think that it is going to

9 incriminate you in some sort of way through your knowledge of what was

10 going on.

11 If you do believe that this is the case, you should say that you

12 object to answering it. I can then, nevertheless, direct you to answer

13 it, but the answer you gave or you give following such a warning cannot be

14 used in any proceedings against you. Do you understand that?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. You proceed.


18 Q. Were you present when Mr. Maric, on whatever occasion, accused

19 Obrenovic of having beaten or having even killed?

20 A. I was not.

21 Q. Were you ever present when a discussion was held among staff,

22 including Mr. Maric, about occurrences and that someone may be later on

23 held accountable for that?

24 A. I was never in any conversations with anyone.

25 Q. Did you never hear the guard Maric mention that somebody will

Page 6184

1 answer for what happened one day? Something like this?

2 A. No.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, the guard Maric is listed under

4 102 in P3.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


7 Q. Vlatko Pljevaljcic, the guard, did he mistreat and beat detainees?

8 A. I didn't see that.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's number 35 in the list.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you.


12 Q. Predrag Stefanovic, Predo?

13 A. I didn't see him either, ever.

14 Q. Didn't he beat up a person that complained about the small food

15 rations, actually a handicapped person, a handicapped Muslim detainee?

16 A. I don't know who this refers to, this handicapped person, and I

17 never saw Predo beating anyone.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we do not have the name. We

19 just know that it is a handicapped person. And Mr. Predo is listed

20 under 22.

21 Q. And last, Radovan Vukovic, did he beat detainees?

22 A. I didn't see that either.

23 Q. Did you hear it?

24 A. No.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: This person is 52 on the list.

Page 6185

1 Q. Sir, you have already mentioned the exchange in relation to

2 Konjic, where you heard afterwards that they were taken to Konjic. Those

3 who took detainees, Muslim detainees, to Konjic, were they soldiers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And before they took away the detainees, did they go and eat in

6 the canteen?

7 A. I tell you, I came by coming from the village and I saw trucks. I

8 don't know whether they had eaten or not.

9 Q. Were you present when the so-called plum pickers were taken away

10 in September 1992?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But you know what I mean when I say "plum pickers," right? You're

13 aware that there is the group of plum pickers?

14 A. I heard that they went out to pick plums. Where, I don't know.

15 Q. Where were you when they were taken?

16 A. I probably didn't work that day because I didn't take them out.

17 Q. You knew Mr. Murad Crneta, right?

18 A. I knew him.

19 Q. He was detained in the KP Dom, wasn't he?

20 A. He was.

21 Q. You gave him cigarettes, right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You knew him. Were you friends?

24 A. We were not friends. We just went to elementary school together.

25 Q. And he was among the plum pickers, wasn't he?

Page 6186

1 A. I can't remember that, whether he was.

2 Q. When did he disappear from the KP Dom? Do you recall that?

3 A. I can't remember.

4 Q. His body was found near the Gorazde front line, wasn't it?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. You don't know that?

7 A. Well, I don't. I don't know that his body was found.

8 Q. And the body of Halid Konjo was found as well?

9 A. Well, I don't know that. I don't know.

10 Q. Do you know Halim Konjo?

11 A. I tell you, I knew the Konjo brothers except that I don't know who

12 had which first name.

13 Q. Halim Konjo was found dead in the KP Dom, wasn't he?

14 A. No, no. He was not found.

15 Q. Juso Dzamalija, do you know him?

16 A. I don't.

17 Q. He's the one who committed suicide. You're aware that someone

18 committed suicide, right, in the KP Dom?

19 A. I heard about that, but I don't know who he is.

20 Q. He committed suicide in the isolation cell, right?

21 A. I heard that someone had hanged himself in the isolation cell, but

22 I don't know which person this was.

23 Q. Were you on duty when that happened?

24 A. I was not.

25 Q. Did you see the body being taken away?

Page 6187

1 A. I did not.

2 Q. Mr. Dzamalija committed suicide because he was beaten and he

3 expected to be beaten again, right?

4 A. I don't know about that. I don't know why or whether he had been

5 beaten at all.

6 Q. Were you present when Pero Elez, in summer 1992, came and took

7 men, Muslim detainees, out for work in Miljevina?

8 A. I did not see Pero Elez. He did not enter the compound. I don't

9 know whether he was in front of the KP Dom.

10 Q. But he came to the KP Dom and requested detainees for the

11 Miljevina mine, right?

12 A. I don't know about him coming to the KP Dom with that kind of

13 request.

14 Q. Were Muslim detainees taken to the Miljevina mine in 1992 and

15 disappeared from there?

16 A. As far as I know, I don't know what year that was, when that group

17 worked, from 8 to 12 people, those who went in the morning and returned in

18 the afternoon. And I know about them being missing, but about people

19 being taken to the mine and then going missing, I don't know about that,

20 nor did I hear about them going.

21 Q. Sir, in August, end of August 1992, a group of 55 detainees were

22 taken to Montenegro for release but they were returned. Do you recall

23 that?

24 A. I heard that people over the age of 60 were taken. I don't know

25 whether they were returned.

Page 6188













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Page 6189

1 Q. Twenty of these people were younger people and they were selected

2 after their return to KP Dom, and they are missing. Are you aware of

3 this?

4 A. I heard that they were taken to Montenegro, and I didn't hear that

5 they were returned to the KP Dom.

6 Q. Did you not hear that Pero Elez intervened and returned the bus

7 with the detainees?

8 A. I did not hear that.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 4.00.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We will adjourn and resume at 9.30 in the

11 morning

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

13 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday the 16th

14 day of May, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.