Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7218

1 Tuesday, 12 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Milorad Krnojelac.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning, Your

11 Honours; good morning, everyone.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]

15 Q. Good morning, sir.

16 A. I do.

17 Q. Sir, can you hear me?

18 A. Yes, I can hear you.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

20 would like to show the witness ID D86, please.

21 Q. Sir, yesterday we talked about this survey of goods and

22 manufacturing components sold and acquired in the period from the 29th of

23 May to the 15th of October, 1992, which you compiled for the Drina

24 Economic Unit. Please look at item number 4. It says that on the 16th of

25 June, you sold six wall units for 370.048 dinars. And now look at item

Page 7219

1 21, please. On the 3rd of October, the same year, you sold five wall

2 units for 2.079.600 dinars. Can you tell us how come there is such a

3 price difference?

4 A. This is the result of hyperinflation that was rampant during that

5 year. If we sold six wall units in the month of June for 370.000 dinars

6 and in October five wall units for a million, et cetera, and if we take

7 into account the devaluation of the dinar in July, sometime in July, if we

8 look at the ratio, we can see how big the inflation rate was or, rather,

9 how devalued the dinar was in that period.

10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would like to

12 tender ID D86 into evidence. Also the translation, ID D86-A, please.

13 JUDGE HUNT: What is the Prosecution's reaction to that?

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE HUNT: I hope that this is going to assist us somewhere

16 along the case. Was there going to be ever any issue taken about this or

17 was it just curiosity, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I think it is an important

19 issue, and in the cross-examination I will come back to this document.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Oh, dear. All right. Thank you.

21 That will be Exhibit D86 and 86A.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Sir, you said to us yesterday that in the -- from the second half

24 of June until the first half of July, goods from the economic unit were

25 not transported to Yugoslavia or were goods from Yugoslavia brought to the

Page 7220

1 KP Dom in Foca because, as you put it, Mr. Krnojelac was absent, visiting

2 his son.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

4 would like the witness to be shown D90 and D90/1.

5 Q. Sir, would you please take a look at this document. What is it?

6 Are you familiar with this document?

7 A. This document, D92, is a travel authorisation for Milorad

8 Krnojelac, temporary warden, to travel on the 24th of June, 1992, to

9 Belgrade.

10 According to this travel authorisation, Milorad Krnojelac took an

11 advance amounting to 200.000 dinars. This is number 37, and it is number

12 4 in the cashier's register as item number 116. This is a copy of the

13 authorisation, the travel authorisation according to which advance

14 payments are made. And in the upper right-hand corner, it says "Copy for

15 accounts," for the cashier.

16 Q. In addition to this copy for accounts, was there any other copy

17 that was within the travel authorisation?

18 A. Yesterday we talked about these travel authorisations, and I said

19 that our travel authorisations consist of a folded piece of paper and then

20 there's an additional piece of paper inserted between these two pages and

21 that is the copy for accounts. And then when this travel authorisation is

22 received and when the advance payment is authorised, then the person who

23 is supposed to travel gives the cashier this copy for accounts and he

24 takes along with him the folded piece of paper, that part of the document,

25 and he fills out page 3 of that document upon completing his journey.

Page 7221

1 Q. You said that when the advance payment is taken, that it is

2 signed, and is this copy left at the cashier's?

3 A. Yes. The copy is left at the cashier's because that's a very

4 important document for accounts.

5 Q. This copy for accounts, is that a one-page document?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Can you explain to us the following: You said that when an

8 advance is taken, the cashier is given the copy for accounts.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Upon returning from an official trip, a final calculation is made

11 of all the expenses incurred, depending on how much time the person

12 involved spent on that particular official trip and how big his expenses

13 were. When is the original travel authorisation handed over to the

14 cashier?

15 A. When the traveller returns from his official trip, then the final

16 calculation is made and this is served -- and this serves as a document

17 for making the final calculation and in order to see whether part of the

18 advance payment is to be returned or whether additional money is to be

19 paid. However, this -- if this advance is not supported by the

20 calculation of the per diems, because Milorad Krnojelac did not want any

21 per diems to be paid to him when he went to Belgrade on this occasion, he

22 returned this advance that was paid to him. When an allowance was

23 calculated, to which every worker is entitled in case of death of a family

24 member, injury of a family member or serious illness of a family member of

25 the worker concerned, that allowance, according to our regulations,

Page 7222

1 amounts to a triple average salary of all workers, and that is how it was

2 calculated for him as well.

3 Q. Now that you've mentioned this allowance, this monetary

4 compensation, in addition to that, did a worker get days of leave in such

5 cases?

6 A. In addition to this allowance, the worker is entitled to seven

7 days of paid leave and also to unpaid leave of absence, to the extent

8 needed for taking care of certain matters.

9 Q. Does that mean that this seven-day -- this seven-day leave can be

10 extended by more days of unpaid leave?

11 A. Yes. If the person concerned needs something like that after the

12 paid leave of absence.

13 Q. Let's just go back for a minute to the travel authorisations that

14 we discussed. When the accounts are actually settled by the cashier, are

15 the copy for accounts and the travel authorisation finally put together?

16 A. No. The cashier's at the accounts -- every document is filed as

17 soon as the transaction concerned takes place. That is to say, if an

18 advance is paid, then it is filed. And then if a person is supposed to

19 give back some of the advance paid out to him or if he receives extra

20 money, then that is filed also because the balance at the cashier's has to

21 be calculated every day, so there can be no waiting there. They have to

22 take care of each day at a time.

23 Q. Sir, please look at D92 and tell me who signed this travel

24 authorisation?

25 A. On behalf of the director, this was signed by Milan Vujovic.

Page 7223

1 That's the signature on the right-hand side. On the left-hand side is the

2 signature of the person who received the advance payment, and that was

3 signed by Milorad Krnojelac.

4 Q. You said to us that Mr. Krnojelac was granted an allowance because

5 of injury or death of a family member and that he was granted leave of

6 absence. Why did he need travel authorisation in order to travel, then?

7 A. This travel authorisation was required for every person who was a

8 full-time employee because he could not leave -- could not cross the

9 border. Also, if this -- if such a person was a military conscript, then

10 he had to get documents from the military authorities. If a person was

11 neither employed nor a military conscript, then he could cross the border

12 only with a personal ID, no other documents.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Apparently a witness

14 said if a person was under work or obligation, not if the person was

15 employed.

16 JUDGE HUNT: Just a moment. The interpreter is putting a

17 correction on the transcript. You'd better ask that question again, Mr.

18 Vasic.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. As far as I

20 can see, Your Honour, the correction was related to the previous

21 question.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Yes, it was.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] And my further question was why did

24 Milorad Krnojelac require a travel authorisation for this trip?

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That is precisely the

Page 7224

1 question to which the correction is related.

2 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, I should not have interfered. The

3 interpreter was taking advantage of putting the correction on, having

4 already recorded the question. I assumed that when that was being done,

5 the question was not being recorded. So you proceed as you wish, Mr.

6 Vasic.

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Sir, please look at document D92/1 and can you please tell me what

9 this document is.

10 A. This document is related to payment from the cashier to Milorad

11 Krnojelac, the amount of 10.000 dinars, according to decision 55/92, dated

12 the 24th of June, 1992. This pertains to the previous question that you

13 were putting to me when I said that Milorad was entitled to 300 dinars, or

14 rather 300.000 dinars. 200.000 dinars were paid to him by way of an

15 advance, and then after the devaluation on the 28th of August, this is

16 this document is the 28th of August and the devaluation was in July, then

17 he was given 10.000 dinars. So that comes to a total -- to the total

18 referred to in this decision, actually.

19 Q. You said to us that Mr. Krnojelac travelled on the 24th of June.

20 Can you tell us whether you know why this payment was made only on the

21 28th of August, 1992?

22 A. This remaining balance of 10.000 dinars was paid on the 28th of

23 August, 1992, probably because before that we did not have enough money at

24 the cashier's for making this kind of payment, that is, or Milorad perhaps

25 did not ask for this payment to be made.

Page 7225

1 Q. Tell me, please, sir, did any other employee from the KP Dom have

2 a family member injured or killed in this period?

3 A. This same case and this same payment occurred in the case of Arso

4 Krnojelac, also an employee of ours whose son was also injured in that

5 period. And I can assert that these are fully authentic documents with

6 all elements that are needed for a payment to be made.

7 Q. Do you remember how much time Mr. Krnojelac spent in Belgrade then

8 from the 24th of June onwards?

9 A. I am very familiar with this case. Milorad and I lived together

10 at the hotel. On the 24th, in the morning, I went to see off Milorad and

11 his family and Arso and his family. These two vehicles left and then I

12 went to work.

13 Q. Do you know when Mr. Milorad Krnojelac returned to the KP Dom?

14 A. I cannot give you the exact number of days, but it must have been

15 10 to 12, as far as I can remember, not more, not less. That's how long

16 he stayed in Belgrade.

17 Q. I have only one more question related to this document, D92.

18 Please, sir, towards the end of the document it says to submit a report in

19 writing three days upon return. Was that a regulation?

20 A. No, this was not a legal provision. This is part of our internal

21 regulations. Every worker was supposed to submit a written report within

22 three days upon return so that all financial matters could be taken care

23 of in good time.

24 Q. Can you tell us whether this decision was passed before the war

25 conflict broke out or after the war conflict broke out? The decision that

Page 7226













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7227

1 you just referred to, that is, within three days all accounts had to be

2 submitted, was this decision passed before or after the war conflicts?

3 A. These forms were printed before the war, and we used them during

4 the war as well. So this is from before the war.

5 Q. Since these are pre-war provisions, during wartime, was this

6 deadline strictly observed, this three-day deadline?

7 A. It could not have been strictly observed and it was not strictly

8 observed. It's not important whether it's three days or five days. It is

9 important that whoever takes money provides adequate documents to sustain

10 it. However, the best thing would be to meet the deadline after all,

11 because then all the documents could be filed chronologically.

12 Q. Thank you, sir.

13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

14 would like to show the witness ID D85.

15 Q. Please, sir, look at this document from beginning to end. Are you

16 familiar with this document?

17 A. I am particularly familiar with this first part. I know about the

18 second part also, but it doesn't relate to what I did. I see that

19 information is provided here about convicted persons who were serving

20 their sentences, and that -- I mean, I wouldn't really know what to say

21 about this because I was not involved in that particular line of work.

22 However, as for the other part, information concerning the

23 situation at the KP Dom, as far as I can tell by just glancing at the

24 document, I am familiar with quite a few things in here.

25 Q. Could you please look at this entire document and tell us what it

Page 7228

1 means from your point of view, or actually, who was it sent to?

2 A. I would need time to read it. However, I see that it has to do

3 with information used from our report when we were assessing the damages

4 inflicted on the property during the war operations. Then I see that

5 information is given about the production of eggs, milk, meat at the

6 farm. Also, information is given in terms of what has been done in order

7 to repair the damage sustained.

8 This is certainly a report that was made after the warden went to

9 Bijeljina, because then information was required about our commercial

10 activity and production and the repair of buildings and facilities and the

11 number of convicted persons who were still at the KP Dom, et cetera.

12 Q. Is this a report that was made on the basis of a survey that we

13 tendered here as document D86, that we discussed a few minutes ago?

14 A. I see that there is some information contained in that survey that

15 was put into this report as well.

16 Q. Please take a look at the last page of this report, please. Can

17 you tell us whose signature it bears?

18 A. This is the signature of Milorad Krnojelac and the stamp of the

19 KP Dom.

20 Q. Now, please look at the last page of the first part of the

21 report. Can you tell us whose signature this is?

22 A. This is also the signature of Milorad Krnojelac, warden.

23 Q. Do you know when this report was sent and to whom?

24 A. I can see that the date is the 24th of November, 1992, and I am

25 sure that it is authentic and I'm sure that that's when it was sent. It

Page 7229

1 would not be logical at all to make it and not to send it.

2 Q. Who was this report sent to?

3 A. The Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska, Banja Luka -- Pale.

4 Pale. At that time, they were at Pale.

5 Q. Thank you, sir.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

7 should like to show the witness document D93.

8 Q. Sir, will you tell us, please, what this document is.

9 A. This is also a travel authorisation for official travel, issued to

10 Milorad Krnojelac, the warden of KP Dom, to travel on the 25th and 26th of

11 August, 1992, to Podgorica for the purpose of a visit. He would be using

12 our van for the trip.

13 Q. Is your signature to be found anywhere on this document?

14 A. My signature is here on page 3, with the settlement of travel

15 expenses. We can see that he left on the 25th of August at 8.00 and

16 returned on the 26th at 1900 hours, so he is entitled to two daily

17 allowances, 750 dinars each, 1.500, and he had a hotel bill and it

18 amounted to 2.550. He probably shared a room with this other person. It

19 was paid out on the 31st of August, 1992. I settled this account and made

20 the payment.

21 Q. On page 1 of this authorisation, it says, "For the purpose of a

22 family visit." Do you know anything about that?

23 A. I think that in this case, Milorad Krnojelac went to Podgorica to

24 arrange a sale. It would surely be found in the survey that we looked at

25 a moment ago. And that from Podgorica, he went on to visit his family.

Page 7230

1 And that the van returned with the driver.

2 Q. Thank you, sir.

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

4 should like to show the witness document D94 and 94/1.

5 Q. Sir, what is this document?

6 A. Again, it is a travel authorisation for Milorad Krnojelac, the

7 warden of the KP Dom, to travel to Podgorica for the purpose of sale and

8 procurement of goods. The authorisation was written on the 5th of

9 September. The trip was to start on the 7th of September. Pursuant to

10 this authorisation, Milorad Krnojelac was given an advance payment of

11 5.000 dinars.

12 Q. Is your signature to be found anywhere on this document?

13 A. On the second page, which is the settlement of travel expenses,

14 based on this travel authorisation, he left on the 7th of September at

15 6.00 and returned on the 8th of September at 1900. He's entitled to one

16 and a half per diems, amounting to 2.250 dinars. He had a hotel bill,

17 which amounts to 3.550, which amounts to a total of 5.700, minus the

18 advance 5.000, so he was paid 700 dinars. Again, completely authentic

19 document issued under number 74, registered under the number of 293.

20 Q. Is your document to be found anywhere on this document -- is your

21 signature, I'm sorry?

22 A. Yes, my signature does figure, because I calculated and settled

23 this bill.

24 Q. Thank you, sir.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

Page 7231

1 should like to show the witness document D95.

2 Q. What is this document, sir?

3 A. This is again a travel authorisation for Krnojelac Milorad to

4 travel to Podgorica for the sale and procurement of goods on the 24th of

5 September, 1992. The number of the authorisation is 182. These expenses

6 were calculated in the cashier's office under number 12, ordinal number

7 94.

8 Q. Is your signature to be found on this document?

9 A. Yes, it is on this document because I was the person who

10 calculated the expenses and paid out what was due.

11 Q. Thank you, sir.

12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

13 should like to show the witness document D96.

14 Q. What is this document, sir?

15 A. This is again a travel authorisation for Milorad Krnojelac, the

16 warden, to travel to Belgrade on the 3rd of November, 1992. It was

17 registered under the number 204, and the settlement of accounts was number

18 14 under the number 442. I settled the -- this claim. He was away for

19 five days, 1.500 per day amounts to 7.500. He had an advance payment of

20 10.000 and he returned two and a half thousand to the cashier.

21 Q. Will you tell me who issued this travel authorisation, on page 1.

22 A. On page 1, we have the signature of Milorad Krnojelac.

23 Q. In what capacity did he issue this travel authorisation?

24 A. In the capacity of director of the Drina Economic Unit.

25 Q. And the travel expenses are also covered out of the budget of the

Page 7232

1 Drina Economic Unit. This travel authorisation has a different form from

2 the ones we have been reviewing so far. Could you tell us why?

3 A. A different form was used obviously because this was on the 2nd of

4 November and those that you showed me all had an earlier date. So

5 probably the -- we ran out of the other forms and we used this form.

6 There is absolutely no dilemma regarding the authenticity of both travel

7 authorisation documents.

8 Q. You told us that the forms that we spoke of earlier had been

9 printed before the conflict broke out. Could you tell us when these forms

10 were printed? Look at page 1, please.

11 A. These forms were also printed before the war, because I see the

12 1980 something that is printed out on the form, 198-.

13 Q. Thank you, sir. In view of the fact that you settled this

14 account, do you know whether in all the cases that we discussed regarding

15 travel authorisation, was Milorad Krnojelac absent from the KP Dom on all

16 these occasions?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. I showed you several travel authorisations which you settled upon

19 the traveller's return, as you told us. My question is can you confirm

20 that Milorad Krnojelac really did travel and was absent?

21 A. I can claim 100 per cent that regarding the travel authorisation

22 documents that I settled, Milorad Krnojelac was away as stated in those

23 same documents. I am quite certain of that.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

25 should like to show the witness document ID D97.

Page 7233













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Page 7234

1 Q. Sir, on this piece of paper, we have a bill for fuel and a

2 certificate of payment. Could you tell us what this is?

3 A. I see here that the payment of 20.000 dinars was carried out on

4 the 10th of December, 1992, the aim being to purchase fuel, but reference

5 is made to a bill or invoice that is not attached to this payment. And

6 from this bill we can see that indeed 20 litres of fuel were bought, to

7 the value of 20.000 dinars, and poured into the vehicle GZ436.

8 This bill was later added on. There was probably some confusion

9 by the cashier when she was paying out the sum for the purchase of fuel,

10 and she attached the wrong bill. And later when the bill was brought and

11 when she saw that it was wrong, she corrected it.

12 So this payment is also authentic because we see that it is

13 entered in the registry number 16 and number 465.

14 Q. Talking about the sale of petrol, who approved the sale of petrol

15 in those days, in 1992?

16 A. As far as I can remember, it was the executive council, because

17 they were in control of the reserves of fuel, and they would grant us

18 permission for the amount that we were allowed to purchase.

19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

20 should like to show the witness document ID D98 and 99 and 100, as these

21 are all similar documents and in order to speed things up a bit.

22 JUDGE HUNT: You've already exceeded your estimate, Mr. Vasic, I

23 should remind you. How long do you think you're going to be?

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we only have another

25 seven documents to show the witness and that is all the Defence will be

Page 7235

1 for this witness. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Sir, will you please look at ID D98 and tell us what it is.

3 A. It is again the purchase of 10 litres of fuel, amounting to 10.000

4 dinars, pursuant to an invoice. In this case, both the invoice and the

5 actual payment coincide, though the payment was made on the 22nd and the

6 bill on the 20th, which means that the person buying the fuel paid for it

7 out of his own pocket and then he brought the invoice to collect and get a

8 refund for it.

9 It is noteworthy that, according to this bill, the fuel was not

10 poured into a vehicle. It was probably carried to the farm, because the

11 registration number of the car is not indicated. So it was poured into a

12 jerrycan.

13 Q. Tell us, with regard to this first document, whether it was

14 registered.

15 A. Yes, certainly. You can see up there a cashier's 17-514. The

16 registration number is 514.

17 Q. The next document is D99. Tell us what that is.

18 A. It is the same document as the previous one, the same kind of

19 document, but as the money was paid out on the 23rd of December, the

20 cashier noted down that the bill was missing here, by hand. So she asked

21 Milorad Krnojelac, when he buys the fuel, to bring her the bill.

22 And again this fuel was not poured into a vehicle but into a

23 jerrycan, because the registration number of the vehicle is not indicated,

24 and we kept fuel that we had in reserve in these jerrycans in case of a

25 shortage.

Page 7236

1 The third document --

2 Q. Just a moment. Regarding the second document, is this a bill that

3 was later attached to when the payment was made?

4 A. Yes, because both the dates and the amount coincide, and this bill

5 is now attached to the document. However, at the moment of payment, there

6 was no bill, which means the money was collected first, fuel poured, and

7 then the bill brought back to the cashier.

8 Q. And tell me, has this been -- bill been registered as well?

9 A. Yes, under 517-17.

10 Q. And finally, document ID D100. What can you tell us about it?

11 A. Here again we have a bill for fuel, in this case 25 litres, 9.000

12 per litre, 22.500. The money was taken by Milorad Krnojelac. The bill's

13 signed by Milorad Krnojelac, the payment registered on the 23rd of

14 December under 49/93.

15 Q. Thank you, sir.

16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would tender

17 ID D97 and the translation, as well as ID D98 with the translation and

18 ID D99 and ID D100 with the translations to be tendered into evidence.

19 JUDGE HUNT: Any objection, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE HUNT: They will be Exhibits D97, D97A; D98, D98A; D99,

22 D99A; D100 and D100A.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, I

24 should like to show the witness document 101, ID D101.

25 Q. Sir, what is this document, please?

Page 7237

1 A. This is an invoice for eggs delivered to the KP Dom by the Drina

2 Economic Unit. And from the invoice, we can see that 2.520 eggs were

3 delivered at a price of 31.43 dinars, which amounts to a total of 79.200

4 dinars. The invoice was registered under the account relating to

5 customers, to buyers, and it was signed by Milorad Krnojelac and settled

6 by Radmila Kujundzic, or something like that.

7 Q. In what capacity did Milorad Krnojelac sign this bill?

8 A. As a rule, it is signed by the director of the Drina Economic Unit

9 or someone authorised by him. In this case, it was Milorad Krnojelac as

10 the director of the Drina Economic Unit.

11 Q. Could you explain to us -- in this case, the Drina Economic Unit

12 is invoicing goods to the KP Dom, of which it is a part. Can you explain

13 that to us?

14 A. I told you at the beginning that the Drina Economic Unit was

15 operating independently. So before the war, everything was invoiced and

16 the KP Dom paid for all these goods. Drina paid compensation to the

17 convicts on the basis of what they earned. In this case, it was invoiced,

18 but the money was never collected.

19 Q. Why not?

20 A. Because KP Dom was not receiving any funds. You asked me

21 yesterday about that report. You could see how much money was allocated

22 to us out of the budget.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher,

25 should like to show the witness documents 102, 103, and 104.

Page 7238

1 Q. Are these again invoices which the Drina Economic Unit sent?

2 A. Yes. These were all invoices by the Drina Economic Unit for goods

3 delivered to its buyers. The invoice is signed by Milorad Krnojelac as

4 the director of the Drina Economic Unit, and it was registered by

5 Radmila. You have the number for each of the buyer, the code for each of

6 the buyer, indicated on top.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. Just tell us, please, which is the buyer's code?

8 A. What is written in pencil, 1.200-30, 1.200-58 and 1.200-36.

9 Q. Thank you, sir.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher, may

11 I show the witness the list of military conscripts, members of the KP Dom

12 Foca unit?

13 Q. Will you please look at number 5 on this list. Is that your name?

14 A. Yes. This is my name.

15 Q. Tell me, please, within the framework of the KP Dom, was any kind

16 of military unit formed?

17 A. Our workers joined other military units, but there was no military

18 unit attached to the KP Dom as a formation.

19 Q. While working at the KP Dom, were you a civilian or a military

20 person?

21 A. While I was under work obligation in the KP Dom, I was a civilian,

22 and when I was mobilised, I became a soldier, but I joined other military

23 units and not this one mentioned here, this whatever it is.

24 Q. Are you familiar with this document?

25 A. I think that this document never reflected reality. What it says

Page 7239

1 here was not the reality. I see Milorad Krnojelac here, written by

2 someone, as a commander of I don't know what, Captain First Class. First

3 of all, as I said and I claim, Milorad in this period of time, from when

4 he came to the KP Dom until he left the KP Dom, was not engaged in any

5 military unit, nor did he join any military unit outside the KP Dom. Then

6 also, this rank, Captain First Class, he may have been a Captain First

7 Class as a reservist in the Territorial Defence before the war, whereas in

8 fact he neither wore a uniform nor did he have any rank insignia.

9 Q. It says that you spent 31 days on the front line?

10 A. I see that that is what is written here.

11 Q. What months does this document relate to?

12 A. It says up there October 1992.

13 Q. In October 1992, were you a member of any kind of military unit?

14 A. The period from when I was mobilised in July 1992 until August

15 1993, I was sent to a unit, then turned back to work obligation. I went

16 back and forth so I really cannot give you any reliable information

17 exactly where I was, now that you're asking me, at that particular time.

18 As regards this particular list, I think that this list may have been used

19 solely for the purpose of those of us who were working in the KP Dom

20 before and were now either in a military unit or under work obligation

21 because I see here the names of men who were employed in the KP Dom. Only

22 the women were absent. And this was probably written for us to receive

23 those packages that the army distributed to its members. I see no other

24 reason, because I see Ljubo Todovic received it and he was the person over

25 there who was distributing those parcels.

Page 7240













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Page 7241

1 Q. When we spoke about the survey that you prepared for the Drina

2 Economic Unit, you told us that you compiled it and handed it in by the

3 15th of October 1992. Could you have compiled it if you had been in a

4 military unit?

5 A. Of course I couldn't. So I wasn't probably at the time.

6 Q. Do you know whether there are names of persons on this list who

7 were never mobilised during the war?

8 A. Yes. For instance, Relja Goljanin, he's completely unfit for

9 military service. He never did his military service, nor did he ever join

10 a military unit. Let me see if there are any others. Dusko Djurovic, for

11 instance. He's an invalid, 60 per cent disabled. He can't walk so how

12 can he go to the army?

13 Q. Thank you, sir.

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I have just one more document, and I

15 do apologise for overstepping the time I had envisaged. And it is

16 document P3. Could I ask the usher for his assistance to show this

17 document, document P3, to obtain it from the Registry, please.

18 Q. Sir, please look at this list. Item 19, is that your name and

19 surname?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Third column, by your name and surname, it says that you were

22 engaged at the KP Dom for work obligation from the 21st of September 1992

23 onwards. Is that true?

24 A. This is quite untrue. Please take a look at this. It says that I

25 came to the KP Dom on the 21st of September 1992 and that I left on the

Page 7242

1 31st of August 1992. How could I come after I had left? Or perhaps I

2 can't see this right.

3 Q. It says underneath that you came on the 2nd of September 1993 and

4 left on the 31st of October 1994.

5 A. Is -- that is correct but the part up there cannot be correct.

6 Look, it says that I came on the 21st of September and that I left on the

7 31st of August. How could that be?

8 Q. Did you come on the 21st of September 1992 to the KP Dom or did

9 you come earlier?

10 A. I came sometime around the 24th or the 25th of April. I stated

11 that already yesterday.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. Please take a look at this here. It says here

13 that you were chief of bookkeeping, chief of accounts and security. Did

14 you ever work on security?

15 A. I was only chief of bookkeeping while the law was called the law

16 on bookkeeping. In 1993 the law was changed and it was called the law on

17 accounts, and I was called the chief of accounts. As for security, if

18 you're referring to the KP Dom, I never did that kind of thing. Yes,

19 while I was in the military, I was providing security for the high school

20 or, I don't know, other facilities, but at the KP Dom, I never worked in

21 security.

22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

23 Your Honour, the Defence has no further questions.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Cross-examination?

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7243

1 Cross-examined by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

2 Q. Good morning, Witness.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Mr. Drakul, you lived in Donje Polje in a row of seven houses

5 belonging to Serbs, one of them Mr. Krnojelac, right?

6 A. It is correct that I lived in Donje Polje in a street there, but

7 the house that belonged to Krnojelac was in the neighbouring street, the

8 street next to the street where I lived. It's not the same street. His

9 street was called Beogradska and mine was called Partizanski Put.

10 Q. Within Partizanski Put, there was also Mr. Savo Obrenovic, his

11 house, and there was also Mr. Miladin Matovic living there as a tenant of

12 Mr. Obrenovic, right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How far were the two houses, that is, your house and

15 Mr. Obrenovic's house, away from Mr. Krnojelac's house? How many metres?

16 A. Perhaps 100 to 150 metres.

17 Q. Your row of houses at Partizanski Put was right on the

18 confrontation line between the Muslims and the Serbs, right?

19 A. Our row of houses was on Muslim-held territory. The confrontation

20 line was above us, in the pine woods up there.

21 Q. So that means that your row of houses was between Cafe Bor, where

22 the Muslims were, and the Serbs' position above your house, right?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac's house was in a similar endangered position,

25 right?

Page 7244

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You and the other Serb families, including Mr. Krnojelac and

3 Mr. Obrenovic, you knew that your position was quite dangerous, in case of

4 fighting, of course.

5 A. We understood that before the war conflict broke out, but before

6 that, we got along very well with the Muslims as our neighbours.

7 Q. In case of the war, you knew that something could happen to you,

8 something bad could happen to you and to your houses, right? That was a

9 prospect?

10 A. I did not expect this kind of outcome of the war nor such

11 catastrophes that happened. I could not imagine something like that.

12 Q. Actually, your house was burnt down, and the other houses of the

13 other Serbs in this area too. Did it happen on the 14th of April?

14 A. I think on the 14th or the 13th. I'm not sure. I'm not sure

15 about the date when it was set on fire. I know when I came to the house

16 and when I left the house, though.

17 Q. Nobody got hurt when all these houses were burned, right, because

18 they were abandoned before that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You yourself, you told us that you left on the 7th of April, and

21 you went to Orahovo, and Mr. Obrenovic did the same, right?

22 A. The 7th or the 8th of April. I'm not quite sure when exactly.

23 Q. You said that you left when the shooting actually started between

24 the Cafe Bor area and the wood above you. So that's what you remember,

25 right?

Page 7245

1 A. Correct. Correct.

2 Q. Orahovo, that's a Serb village?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You went there because it's safer to be among your own people when

5 there is a war, correct?

6 A. Not only because of that, but also that is where I could get

7 accommodation. That's where the father of my neighbour's wife lived, and

8 I knew that he'd take me in.

9 Q. Orahovo, how far is it from Foca centre?

10 A. These houses where we were, about three kilometres.

11 Q. To get there, do you actually have to pass through Livade and

12 Velecevo or is it before?

13 A. Through Livade, yes; through Velecevo, no.

14 Q. So it's between Livade warehouses and Velecevo?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You said that you stayed with the father-in-law of Mr. Obrenovic.

17 Did Mr. Miladin Matovic and his wife and children join you there as well?

18 A. His wife joined us. As for the children, I think they were

19 staying with his father. I can't remember that their children were with

20 us. The wife was, though.

21 Q. And when did she come to the house of this father-in-law?

22 A. I don't know whether it was the same day or the next day. I can't

23 say exactly. I know that I saw her up there.

24 Q. Milan Matovic, did he come to Orahovo as well?

25 A. Miladin Matovic did not come to Orahovo where we were.

Page 7246

1 Q. Did he come to another house in Orahovo or didn't he come to

2 Orahovo at all?

3 A. I did not see Miladin Matovic. He probably came and took his wife

4 there, but I did not see him while I was in Orahovo.

5 Q. Mr. Krnojelac and his family moved to his brother's place in

6 Cerezluk, right?

7 A. I found Mr. Krnojelac at the hotel. First I found him at the

8 KP Dom, and then with his family, I found him at the hotel. I don't know

9 where he went during the war conflict.

10 Q. Did you see him leave his house with his family?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You mentioned the dentist Milisav Kovacevic. When did he leave

13 the row of houses to take shelter somewhere else? Do you know that?

14 A. I don't know about that.

15 Q. But he left the house at Partizanski Put as well, right?

16 A. Probably, because no one got hurt.

17 Q. Momir Kovac, do we know when he left the house at Partizanski

18 Put?

19 A. I don't know. I only know the ones I mentioned, when Savo and I

20 left our houses. I don't know about all the rest.

21 Q. While you lived at Partizanski Put, do you know what car

22 Mr. Krnojelac had immediately before the outbreak of the war?

23 A. I can't say. I know that before he had a Skoda and a Yugo, but

24 what car he had at that moment, I'm not sure. I can't really say.

25 Q. Before the war, did he have a red Yugo, before the war?

Page 7247













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Page 7248

1 A. He had a Yugo. When he got it, when he sold it, whether he sold

2 it during the war, I don't know about that, but I saw a red Yugo parked in

3 front of his house quite often.

4 Q. Before the war is that?

5 A. Before the war, yes.

6 Q. And you said he sold it. How do you know that he sold it?

7 A. I don't know that he sold it. I don't know what he did with it at

8 all. I just, from time to time, saw a Yugo in front of his house. I

9 don't know whether he sold it.

10 Q. When the shooting started on the 7th or the 8th of April, you

11 decided to leave, and you discussed with Mr. Obrenovic where to go,

12 right?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. After you had made the decision to go to Mr. Obrenovic's relative,

15 did you call your wife's sister to inform her where you were going?

16 A. No.

17 Q. How, then, did she know that you were in Orahovo?

18 A. We phoned. There was a phone there where we were staying, and

19 Cerezluk also has a telephone. We were in constant telephone contact,

20 "What can you see? What's going on around our houses?" every day.

21 Telephones were still working normally.

22 Q. While you were discussing with Mr. Obrenovic where to go to take

23 shelter, your sister -- your wife, your daughter, and your mother packed

24 together some things, right?

25 A. They got some things that they could grab, and they put it into

Page 7249

1 shopping bags, plastic bags, whatever. There wasn't time to pack, to get

2 ready, only half an hour.

3 Q. When you left your house, you knew that it wouldn't be only for

4 one day, right? You knew it would be for as long as the fighting was

5 ongoing, right?

6 A. I was hoping all the time that reason would prevail, that the

7 conflicts would stop, that some kind of agreement would be reached, that

8 there would be reconciliation. I constantly harboured that hope.

9 Q. But because you couldn't be sure, your wife and your daughter and

10 your mother, you took clothing with you. Everybody needs some clothing,

11 right? That's natural to take some with you.

12 A. Correct. However, I didn't take anything for myself.

13 Q. Your wife didn't take anything for you? She didn't just ignore

14 your needs?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You said that you were told that your house was on fire, and I

17 understood that your house was actually among the first burning. Is that

18 correct? The houses at Partizanski Put.

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. At what time of the day were they burning? Do you recall that?

21 A. I can't say exactly what time of the day it was. I think sometime

22 around midday. I can't tell you anything more specific than that. I just

23 heard them tell us that the houses were burning, but what that time this

24 was ...

25 Q. Well, you got the telephone call. Do you recall what time of the

Page 7250

1 day it was?

2 A. It was sometime in the morning or around midday. They didn't call

3 us. We kept calling them and saying, "What's going on with our houses?

4 What's going on with our houses?" We kept calling them and asking them.

5 Q. When you called them in the morning, did they tell you then that

6 the house was right on fire then or what did they say about your house

7 exactly?

8 A. First of all, it was not in the morning. It was sometime around

9 midday. We asked, "What can you see at our houses?" First they didn't

10 feel comfortable giving us an answer, and then we insisted, "What do you

11 see? What do you see?" And then finally they admitted that this house

12 started burning and that that house started burning, and they didn't want

13 to tell us yet that our house was burning too, but I'm sure that they were

14 all on fire at the same time.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac's house, when was -- you said it was somewhat later

16 that it burned. Do you know how much later?

17 A. I heard that it was burned down later. I was not watching then.

18 I didn't ask about Krnojelac's house, but I heard that it was on the next

19 day. I heard that it was torched on two occasions. I heard about that

20 later, when we returned to town. That moment, I did not hear about that

21 house.

22 Q. On your way to Orahovo or while were you in Orahovo, did you go to

23 the TO warehouses in Livade?

24 A. The TO warehouse in Livade? I passed by that TO warehouse in

25 Livade. I passed there, and I stopped by. I dropped in at that TO

Page 7251

1 warehouse in Livade. This Solaja worked there, Solaja the baker, and he

2 would give us some food.

3 Q. Did you also stay overnight there?

4 A. You mean did I stay at that warehouse overnight?

5 Q. At Livade, yes, at the warehouse or at any other building

6 belonging to that complex?

7 A. I think that I spent one night there on guard in that complex. I

8 did not sleep anywhere. I didn't sleep there.

9 Q. How did it happen that you became a guard there?

10 A. The villagers engaged me. They came up there and they said, "Ah,

11 you have to go there to stand guard. Nobody is going to keep you in his

12 house without having to go on guard duty just like they had to go on guard

13 duty." So then I went on guard duty one day.

14 Q. Did you have a uniform and a weapon when you did that?

15 A. When I was guarding the building, they'd give me a rifle. When my

16 shift would be over, they'd take the rifle away and I'd go home.

17 Q. And you didn't have a uniform?

18 A. I did not have a uniform except for some kind of military overcoat

19 that they gave me because it was cold during the night. I had a military

20 overcoat.

21 Q. And when did you stand guard at Livade, what night, do you

22 recall?

23 A. Between the 8th and the 13th, 14th, I think it was in that

24 period. I don't know the exact date. That is to say, from when I arrived

25 in Orahovo until the house burned down, in that period I went one night to

Page 7252

1 stand guard at Livade.

2 Q. What did you actually guard for?

3 A. I was guarding the warehouse, the military warehouse. I don't

4 know what was inside this warehouse. I think there was some kind of

5 equipment, footwear, clothing.

6 Q. While you stood guard there, were there already Muslims detained

7 at Livade?

8 A. Well, that was the period of the fiercest fighting and people were

9 leaving town. There were Muslims there, there were Serbs there. Because

10 this is somehow sheltered from the war operations. It's by a stream.

11 They say that there were some. I didn't see any.

12 Q. You also said that, after you returned to Foca, you went to your

13 house and saw the ruins. Did you go into the basement and take out some

14 things, in particular some clothes?

15 A. My house has a ground floor and an upper floor. There is a

16 concrete floor on the ground floor, and one room underneath that concrete

17 floor was not -- had not burned down, and I found some things there, some

18 things that had not burned down completely.

19 Q. You found some clothes there, right?

20 A. Underwear, for the most part.

21 Q. You said that you stayed in the Hotel Zelengora. Did you have one

22 room or more rooms?

23 A. My family and I had only one room, with a bathroom and toilet.

24 Q. You said that the executive council suggested to you to go there.

25 Was it actually Mr. Mladjenovic who told you that, or who?

Page 7253

1 A. I did not reach Mr. Mladjenovic then. There was a clerk there, I

2 think his name was Radovic. I don't know what his first name is. He was

3 registering refugees, displaced persons, families.

4 Q. The executive council is a peacetime organ attached to the

5 municipal assembly, right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. In April 1992, that is the 18th of April 1992, it was wartime and

8 it was actually the Crisis Staff who made all these decisions, right? It

9 was the Crisis Staff?

10 A. I don't know. I keep calling all of that the executive

11 committee. I don't know what they were called during the war, Crisis

12 Staff, whatever. I say executive committee because I know these people.

13 Before the war, they were on the executive committee and that's how I

14 addressed them.

15 Q. But you --

16 A. I don't know. I don't know these formations exactly. Honestly.

17 I don't know what they were called, the executive council, the tactical

18 group, the Crisis Staff. I'm not familiar with these formations.

19 Q. When you arrived at the Zelengora Hotel, was the Krnojelac family

20 already housed there or did they come after you?

21 A. On that day, I did not see anybody, and we met only later.

22 Actually, when I went to the KP Dom, when I met up with Mico, it is only

23 then that we realised that we were both staying at the hotel. I don't

24 know when he came to the hotel, his family, that is.

25 JUDGE HUNT: We will return to the Hotel Zelengora at half past

Page 7254













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7255

1 11.00.


3 JUDGE HUNT: We will adjourn until then.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.00

5 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 With the help of the usher, I would like to show the witness

9 Exhibit 18, photo 7400. Can we put it on the ELMO?

10 Q. Have a look at it, and then we'll put it on the ELMO.

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Usher, please put it on the ELMO.

12 Q. Sir, the building with the red roof and the attached white higher

13 building, is that the Hotel Zelengora?

14 A. This is the hotel, yes.

15 Q. You were pointing at this -- would you please point it out on the

16 ELMO. Here, on the ELMO.

17 A. The new part of the building. The old part of the building.

18 MR. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness indicated the white block

19 attached to the building with the red roof as the new part of the Hotel

20 Zelengora, and the building with the red roof as the old part of the Hotel

21 Zelengora.

22 Q. In which part were you staying?

23 A. I was staying in the old part, the top floor, beneath the roof.

24 Q. And who was staying in the white building, the higher building?

25 Do you know that?

Page 7256

1 A. I later learnt that a room was given to Milorad Krnojelac in this

2 building. Miladin Matovic was in the old part, and then some other

3 neighbours of mine who had been tenants, they were also in the old part.

4 Q. Of your neighbours, was Mr. Krnojelac the only one staying in this

5 new part?

6 A. I don't know whether he was the only one. I know that he was

7 there. Whether he was the only one, I don't know.

8 Q. Did you see Mr. Ilija Radovic there, his relative?

9 A. I saw Ilija Radovic, but I don't know where he stayed. I didn't

10 ask him in which part.

11 Q. Who else was -- what other people were staying in this new part?

12 Do you know that? It's a big building, so can you say?

13 A. I really don't know who the people were in the new part of the

14 building in those days. I did see some people, but I don't know them,

15 people coming down the steps from the new building and coming to the

16 restaurant which was in the old part, in the old building.

17 Q. Were soldiers housed in the new part? Do you know that?

18 A. I would see soldiers coming to the restaurant. I would see them

19 in front of the hotel. I didn't see whether they were actually living in

20 the hotel. In this part where I was, on the floor where I was and my

21 corridor, I didn't see a single soldier living there.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

23 show the witness now the photo 7405.

24 Q. On this photo, you see now a little bit more of the old part. Can

25 you point out on which floor you were staying with your wife? Are you

Page 7257

1 able to show it?

2 A. You can't see the room I was staying in, but if you're looking

3 from this direction, it would be to the left. So my room didn't face the

4 Cehotina River, it faced the road, the Krystal Bank, the Jugo Bank.

5 Q. You pointed to the first floor above the restaurant.

6 A. I said I was in the attic, actually. I had a slanting ceiling.

7 It was on this floor but to the left, facing the Jugobanka or Krystal

8 Banka and not the Cehotina River.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the attic on the

10 left-hand side of the building.

11 Q. And below, below you, who was housed there? From the photo, you

12 can see that there are rooms and balconies. Who was staying below? Do

13 you know that?

14 A. I also saw some people staying there. They were civilians. Who

15 they were, I don't know. They were probably people who had left their

16 residences before the war and were put up in the hotel. I saw those

17 people in the restaurant. I didn't go into anybody's room, so I don't

18 know who they were. I didn't know them.

19 I knew some people from Foca who I saw in the restaurant, but I

20 don't know where exactly they were put up. I remember Judge Jakic. He

21 would often be with us at dinner time. I didn't ask him where he was

22 staying. Or maybe he just came there for his meals. I don't know.

23 Q. And those you met in the restaurant, they were Serbs, right?

24 There were no Muslims staying there?

25 A. I think there wasn't a single Muslim. I didn't see any Muslim

Page 7258

1 that I knew. Maybe one of the people I didn't know could have been a

2 Muslim but there were none that I knew.

3 Q. These soldiers that you mentioned, they came to the restaurant,

4 did they also frequent the restaurant in the evenings? Was there kind of

5 a bar in the restaurant or attached to it?

6 A. There was no other restaurant except this one for refugees and

7 displaced persons. That was the only kitchen that was working, as far as

8 I saw. There was no restaurant catering to other guests.

9 Q. You have to point out on the ELMO, sir, if you want to show

10 something.

11 A. This is where the restaurant was, where we had our meals. You

12 could go out to the terrace from it. That is where we ate. There was a

13 terrace and then the restaurant.

14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the ground floor,

15 behind the terrace. There was a lot of windows and he was pointing at

16 these windows.

17 Q. Sir, was there kind of a bar near the Hotel Zelengora or in the

18 Hotel Zelengora where soldiers met and drank in the evenings?

19 A. There was a bar. I never went there nor did I see whether

20 soldiers went there. And the bar is beneath the kitchen. There are

21 coffee bars there even now. And before the war, there was a bar down

22 here.

23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the basement

24 building attached to the hotel, actually to the right of the hotel. Yes,

25 thank you. And with the help of the usher, I would like to show you yet

Page 7259

1 another photo, and that's the photo 7404. It's actually the top photo.

2 You have it, Usher.

3 Q. On the top photo, you see a part of the hotel and opposite the

4 street, you see a -- another building with some kind of green -- green in

5 front of it. Is that a -- is that the former JNA Dom? This building to

6 the left side of the photo.

7 A. I think this is the JNA club, but it's not the whole of it. This

8 was the Sluzbeni Glasnik, the Official Gazette, and I think that the

9 actual JNA building starts over here to the left.

10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing --

11 A. Only this part is the JNA building.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing at the left corner

13 of the photo, pointing at the building with the partly white, red roof and

14 brown basement -- first -- ground floor. Just another photo that we can

15 see it better, that's the photo 7406.

16 Q. Is that the building that you just pointed now, that we can see it

17 in its entirety, the JNA Dom?

18 A. Yes. That is the JNA Dom.

19 Q. Soldiers met during the war in this area, right?

20 A. I think it was used by the army.

21 Q. Yes, thank you. You said that you did not see, at least not

22 people -- from the people you knew, you didn't see any Muslims there in

23 the Hotel Zelengora. Did you ever see Muslim girls being taken into the

24 hotel by Serb soldiers? Did you ever see that?

25 A. I did not see Muslim or Serb girls being brought by any soldiers.

Page 7260

1 I really didn't see that.

2 Q. When you moved out, as you said, around August 1992, Mr. Krnojelac

3 had already moved to an apartment, right? He moved out earlier than you?

4 A. I don't know exactly when he moved out but I do know when I moved

5 out. I moved out in August, as you said. I moved from the hotel to an

6 apartment, which I already mentioned.

7 Q. We do not have to repeat this but you don't know when

8 Mr. Krnojelac -- if Mr. Krnojelac moved out earlier than you? You're not

9 aware of this?

10 A. I'm not aware of that, whether it was before me or after me; I

11 really don't know.

12 Q. Mr. Krnojelac and his family moved into Dr. Sosevic's apartment,

13 right?

14 A. They moved into an apartment whose tenancy rights holder was

15 Dr. Ismet Sosevic but the flat was the property of the KP Dom because he

16 was given that flat to use while he was working in the KP Dom.

17 Q. Where was it in Foca, this apartment?

18 A. These are new buildings up there in Gornje Polje, the district is

19 known as -- well, Gornje Polje. Where the Izvor utilities company was

20 based.

21 Q. Thank you. His son Spomenko, did he also move into that same

22 apartment, or did he move somewhere else?

23 A. I don't know that, whether Spomenko was with him or not. I didn't

24 go to that apartment so I'm unable to tell you, I'm afraid, because I

25 don't know.

Page 7261













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Page 7262

1 Q. Bozidar Krnojelac moved into a ground floor apartment because of

2 his handicap, right?

3 A. I know that he's still living in the ground floor -- a

4 ground-floor apartment so that he can enter with a wheelchair. It's a

5 building close to the bridge on the Cehotina river, behind delikates.

6 Q. It was an apartment that before the war had belonged to a Muslim

7 family, right? Do you know their name?

8 A. Believe me, I don't even know exactly which apartment it was. I

9 just know the buildings behind the delicatessen store and that Bozidar

10 Krnojelac lives there. Whose flat it used to be and which flat it is

11 precisely, I never entered it, so I don't know.

12 Q. Are you still living in the apartment or did you move back to your

13 house meanwhile, nowadays?

14 A. No. I have moved back into my house. I started repairing it in

15 1994, with the assistance of some international humanitarian organisations

16 and the municipality or, rather, the Ministry for Refugees and Displaced

17 Persons, with the assistance of the KP Dom. I repaired my house finally

18 in 1999, and I moved out of the apartment in which I lived. I returned

19 the keys of the apartment to the Ministry for Refugees and Displaced

20 Persons and handed it over to a commission which checked it out.

21 Q. When you say you rebuilt it with the assistance of the KP Dom, did

22 they give you some funding or what kind of assistance was that?

23 A. I got most of the material from the Commission for Refugees and

24 Displaced Persons. I had -- I submitted a request and repaired the roof

25 even before that. Then I applied to the KP Dom to help me resolve my

Page 7263

1 housing problem, as for 40 years I had worked there and paid contributions

2 into the housing fund. A commission was formed. They made an on-site

3 investigation, made an estimate which amounted to 5.700 German marks, that

4 that was the amount needed to complete at least one floor of the house.

5 And the KP Dom passed a decision to contribute that amount in order to

6 have my housing problem resolved.

7 Q. You mentioned the housing fund. Did each employee of the KP Dom

8 take part in the housing fund? Did they all pay something into this

9 fund?

10 A. Not only in the KP Dom. In our country, this was a legal

11 provision. I think it was 5 per cent of personal incomes were set aside

12 for housing construction, and this was invested in the housing fund. And

13 out of those funds, apartment blocks were built or loans given to workers,

14 and other ways of dealing with housing problems of employees.

15 Q. And those people who paid into the housing fund got such

16 apartments when they were newly built, right?

17 A. They -- usually there would be a list, and the people who emerged

18 on the top of the list, on the basis of certain criteria that applied to

19 all workers, those who would be first would get an apartment. If not,

20 they would wait until their turn came.

21 Q. And those who had paid into the housing fund the longest would be

22 on top of the list, right?

23 A. No. That was just one of the criterion. There was also

24 educational background, work experience, conditions of health. There were

25 several criteria that were assessed and points attributed and in that a

Page 7264

1 ranking list was formed, a rating list.

2 Q. When you started to rebuild your house, Muslim detainees did not

3 work at your house construction site, right?

4 A. No, they didn't work at my construction site.

5 Q. Muslim detainees did not work on any of these other Serb houses

6 that were burnt except for Mr. Krnojelac's house, right?

7 A. I am not sure whether they worked at any other construction site.

8 As far as I know, in the area where our houses were burned down, I know

9 that the Radovic house was repaired and they worked on it; that is, people

10 from his company worked on it. Detained Muslims --

11 Q. Detained Muslims also worked on the Radovic house? Is that what

12 you say?

13 A. No, not the Radovic house if you mean the Radovic who had a house

14 next to Milorad's.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. There's another Radovic, Vasilije Radovic, who had a house in my

17 street. This is another person. There are two Radovics. And Muslims did

18 not work for him either.

19 I did see Muslims working on cleaning up the rubble in town, and I

20 saw them working on Mica Krnojelac's house, but I don't know on whose

21 orders.

22 Q. The KP Dom was a big prison with up to 1.000 inmates, right,

23 before the war?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You have already described the rather complex economic unit. We

Page 7265

1 do not need to repeat this. Just one question in relation to the

2 fishpond. When were the fish released? Do you know in which month or

3 even which day?

4 A. It was in April, during the war operations. The fish were

5 released from the pond into the Bistrica River.

6 Q. And you also mentioned that you tried or, rather, the KP Dom staff

7 tried to transport the young fish to another pond. Was that also in April

8 1992?

9 A. I think this was in May or end of April. I am not quite certain.

10 But not young fish but the spawn of trout which was cultivated in closed

11 ponds, the very tiny, small fish, the eggs.

12 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you worked in the KP Dom as an

13 accountant. Did you do the bookkeeping for the entire economic unit and

14 the KP Dom prison?

15 A. I worked on the bookkeeping for the Drina Economic Unit, and I

16 only had one bookkeeper, a lady, who kept the budget books of the KP Dom,

17 because it is far less voluminous and one person is sufficient, whereas in

18 my case, there were five or six other employees working with me.

19 Q. And in your -- in your work at the Drina Economic Unit, did you

20 write invoices for all business transactions or organise the invoice

21 writing?

22 A. In the service in which I worked after the war, invoices were

23 written for all buyers purchasing goods from us; and before the war, this

24 was separate.

25 Q. Does that mean before the war you had nothing to do with the

Page 7266

1 writing of invoices?

2 A. No, I had nothing to do with it. This was done by the commercial

3 service.

4 Q. Did you control the -- before the war, did you control the

5 incoming payments of the business transactions? Did you keep track of

6 these payments?

7 A. Yes, I did. I checked every document, its formal, substantive

8 aspect, the calculations, the movement of funds, and so on.

9 Q. Did you control how many convicts, before the war, worked in which

10 section of the economic unit?

11 A. This figure varied all the time. I can tell you what the

12 production capacity of the units were, and if there were no inmates or

13 convicts, then there were fewer of them. As for the farm, there always

14 had to be at least 30 men to work in the farms that existed up there.

15 Q. Did your service or yourself, did you keep track of the working

16 hours and the wages of the convicts?

17 A. Before the war, a record was kept on convicts. Their work was

18 checked, wages paid out for them, in the same way as for people that were

19 free. However, during the war, as there were only some 20 or 25 convicts,

20 no wages were paid to those convicts, but they were only provided with

21 food, adequate hygiene products, and so on, and of course some money when

22 they were freed at the end of serving their term. This was true for the

23 initial period, during the crisis.

24 Q. Each inmate had a personal account, right? You didn't give them

25 the money, they had their personal accounts and you booked the money into

Page 7267

1 the accounts, right?

2 A. Yes, yes, correct.

3 Q. What did the convicts get for an hour work in the furniture

4 factory? Do you know that? We only talking about the last half year

5 before the war. What did they get in the furniture factory when they

6 worked?

7 A. According to our law on criminal sanctions, a convict is entitled

8 to compensation for work as -- to the amount of one-third of a civilian,

9 so if a civilian has a salary of 300.000, then he is entitled to 100.000.

10 Out of that 100.000, 30 per cent is deposited, kept in deposit, and he was

11 free to use the 70 per cent, not the money but to pick up whatever he

12 needed from the canteen. The same applies nowadays. However, in the

13 initial wartime period, we were unable to provide that for the 20 or 25

14 inmates that we had at the time.

15 Q. As far as food products on the farm were used in-house in the KP

16 Dom, you have already shown us and discussed with us a receipt of -- an

17 invoice of the Drina Economic Unit to the KP Dom. That was -- was that

18 the usual procedure before and after the war, that you made invoices for

19 the in-house consumptions?

20 A. Certainly. I said that the Drina functioned separately from the

21 KP Dom. KP Dom was given resources for food, clothing, of the inmates.

22 So the KP Dom could have bought from Drina, Perucica or Maglic companies.

23 Whichever company they bought the goods from, they had to pay for it.

24 Q. Did you write invoices for transactions between the various Drina

25 sections or was that regarded as one?

Page 7268













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Page 7269

1 A. Between the units within the Drina section, certain documents were

2 written but not actual invoices. You would record the expenses of one

3 unit and the revenues of another unit so that you could record exactly

4 what was going on.

5 Q. You also wrote invoices for transactions between the Drina and

6 state-owned companies, public institutions and the military, right?

7 A. Between state-owned institutions, if you're referring to the

8 municipality or whatever, we did write invoices. As for the military, we

9 also wrote documents, but with a military, we had to go for barters in

10 terms of the credit related to the commodity reserves that I referred to

11 yesterday. I think it was about 30 tonnes of meat.

12 Q. And this practice of -- this practice continued from before the

13 war throughout the war or was there a change?

14 A. Before the war, through material reserves, we got a credit from

15 the military in order to buy fish and pigs and to keep stocks in livestock

16 and fish. Before the war, they did not withdraw any of these stocks of

17 ours, and that's how it remained. And if they were buying something for

18 us -- from us, we would send them invoices, and that's the way it

19 functioned.

20 During the war, they came to ask for these goods of theirs to be

21 given to them, that they gave to us on the basis of commodity reserves.

22 We clarified in the following way: We gave them a report stating that the

23 fish had been killed, and we took them to the farm to see what kind of

24 losses we had sustained because of inadequate food, et cetera, and then we

25 reached a kind of compromise. We gave them some eggs and meat and we

Page 7270

1 closed the deal that way. I can't remember exactly how it went

2 eventually. But at any rate, now we don't owe them anything and we don't

3 owe them anything [as interpreted].

4 Q. The economic section, before the war, they made profits, right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This profit, was it kept in the KP Dom or did you have to transfer

7 it to other institutions like Ministry of Justice?

8 A. Well, I see that you are so familiar with this as if you had

9 worked with me. 30 per cent of the profit was given to the Ministry of

10 Justice. 70 per cent would be left to the Drina Economic Unit itself for

11 further reproduction. That was also regulated by law, Article 42. That

12 was the law on criminal and penal sanctions. I know it by heart.

13 Q. Sir, you made regular reports of the financial situation of the

14 Drina unit. Did you make it in a yearly period or more often throughout

15 the year? Before and during the war.

16 A. Before the war, we made reports every three months, six months,

17 nine months and 12 months, and then we abolished the nine-month reports

18 and kept only the three I mentioned. During the war, we made the first

19 six-month report on the 30th of June 1992. We handed it over to the

20 system for payment service because they were in charge of that. And we

21 sent one copy to the Ministry of Justice and one copy remained.

22 Q. And who actually made this report? Did you do it? Did your

23 section make the report?

24 A. Precisely. I compiled the six-month reports and the yearly

25 reports but I was not the only one. Others were also working on

Page 7271

1 inventories, et cetera, but I'm the one who actually compiled the

2 reports.

3 Q. Was it in a form of a balance where you put incoming money,

4 outgoing money, spending of money, or what did it look like?

5 A. The report consisted of a few forms. There was a balance where

6 you could see all the assets and liabilities, that is to say the revenues

7 and the expenditures, and then also there was another part where total

8 revenues and total expenditures could be seen. And the difference between

9 the revenues and expenditures is profit. And then special outlays, that

10 is to say how many employees there were, how salaries were paid, et

11 cetera. Then also there were public revenues, that is to say all the

12 taxes that had to be paid on salaries, on profit, et cetera. Every one of

13 these had a form of their own and they had to be submitted with the

14 six-month report and with the yearly report. And that is the way things

15 are done until the present day.

16 Q. And you said that you made the first report on the 30th of June

17 1992. When did you make the second report to the Ministry of Justice?

18 A. The first report was made for the period until the 30th of June,

19 but it was actually sent on the 31st of July. The annual report for 1992

20 was made including the 31st of December 1992, but the deadline for sending

21 it was the 28th of February 1993. And we met all these deadlines and

22 provided them -- provided the reports to the institutions that they were

23 supposed to be provided to.

24 Q. And this very professional report that you just explained, except

25 for going to the Ministry of Justice, did it also go to the military or

Page 7272

1 the Ministry of Defence?

2 A. No, no. The Ministry of Justice, the SDK, that is to say the

3 public accounting service and the municipality for statistics purposes,

4 not to the Ministry of Defence, to the military in any way, no.

5 Q. Before the war, you have already described that you had business

6 contacts with companies in Montenegro and Serbia. Drina had good business

7 reputation, right? The goods were well received?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. The Drina, therefore, had rather permanent business contacts with

10 the same customers in Montenegro and Serbia, right?

11 A. We had some with whom we worked all the time and some with whom we

12 worked from time to time.

13 Q. When the business transactions were negotiated, you were not

14 involved in this, right? It was not your business to sell or buy?

15 A. My business was to take care of how to get the goods we sold paid

16 for, how to get money. So if we are talking about the wartime deals that

17 were made, I often travelled with the director because he was not very

18 well-versed in terms of how this should actually be carried out. So that

19 is why I often travelled with him, in order to negotiate the terms and

20 conditions of the deals involved and how the payments would be made,

21 because for a certain period of time you would not have any goods or any

22 dinars, and then in another period you'd have as many dinars as you wanted

23 and no goods whatsoever, for example.

24 Q. Let's talk about the pre-war first. Did you prepare the paperwork

25 for the deliveries pre-war?

Page 7273

1 A. For the delivery of goods, documents were prepared by the

2 commercial department. All the warehouses belonged to the commercial

3 department, that is to say, of finished goods and of intermedia materials

4 and the rolling stock; all of that belonged to the commercial department

5 and they prepared those deliveries.

6 Q. And the preparation of the invoice, the calculation, that was also

7 not your business, right?

8 A. The invoices were also prepared at the commercial department. We

9 at the bookkeeping service, we got the invoices that had already been

10 made, and we only kept records, kept books of payments, et cetera.

11 Q. So before the war, you did not accompany drivers to business

12 partners. You wouldn't have any dealings with them, right?

13 A. I did go sometimes. We had to see with the other contracting

14 party how things would be carried out, and sometimes I went there in order

15 to settle accounts, to see how much was owed by who. You'd be working all

16 the time and sometimes papers would be lost, and always towards the end of

17 the year you had to see exactly what the assets and what the liabilities

18 were and what the outstanding claims were. When that had to be done, then

19 I travelled as well.

20 Q. But usually it were the salespeople, the clerks that travelled to

21 customers?

22 A. That's right. That's right.

23 Q. Mr. Tesovic, the warden, never came with you when you had to

24 settle these accounts by the end of the year, right? It was not his

25 business to do that. He had his people like you, right?

Page 7274

1 A. Maybe sometimes I would take advantage of a trip of his in order

2 to avoid taking two cars, so that we wouldn't go separately. He'd attend

3 to his own business; I'd attend to my own. For example, we'd go to

4 Sarajevo. He'd go to the Ministry of Justice administration and I would

5 go to Sipad to settle the accounts there.

6 Q. Sir, before the war, when goods were delivered to Montenegro and

7 Serbia, the driver also brought back goods for the KP Dom, such as hens,

8 or fodder for the farm or materials for the furniture factory, right?

9 That happened before the war, correct?

10 A. It happened before the war, too, that the driver would go and

11 collect some goods by himself. And also during the war, he'd do the same

12 things. However, far more seldom during the war because goods had to be

13 found, agreements had to be reached, et cetera.

14 Q. Sir, when you said the driver would have to -- would have look --

15 looked for himself, what do you mean? The Drina unit office staff would

16 prearrange all these goods that the driver would have to bring back,

17 right? It's not that he was driving around looking for goods before the

18 war. It was all prearranged, correct?

19 A. Correct. That's right.

20 Q. After the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the war,

21 the goods had to cross state borders and, therefore, much more paperwork

22 was involved, right?

23 A. At first not many more papers had to be obtained. However, the --

24 a customer had to be found. You had to know what you could take and what

25 you could bring back. You had to get the approval of the authorities so

Page 7275













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7276

1 that you could get out. So these were the complications involved.

2 Q. So these barter deals actually need much more coordination and

3 planning than the normal cash-invoice-payment deals, right?

4 A. Certainly.

5 Q. And the driver would not drive around searching for goods. It was

6 all prearranged because petrol was limited and could not be wasted,

7 right?

8 A. You mean during the war?

9 Q. Yes.

10 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps the witness did

11 not hear the answer, my learned friend's answer. That's perhaps the

12 reason for this brief pause.


14 Q. I had asked you, sir -- I will repeat. I asked you, before the

15 war -- during the war, sorry, the driver would not drive around searching

16 for goods, it was prearranged by the Drina service because petrol was

17 limited and could not be wasted in this way, right? So everything was

18 prearranged when the driver left?

19 A. I think it was the other way around. During the war, you could

20 not prearrange things like before the war and just tell the driver, "Go

21 out there and bring such-and-such a thing." Somebody always had to go

22 with the driver to agree on which goods would be sold to who and which

23 goods would be collected from whom and things like that.

24 Q. You claim that when the driver left the KP Dom with, let's say, a

25 load of furniture, he did not know where to go to deliver the furniture

Page 7277

1 and take back the barter goods? Do you claim that?

2 A. That's what I claim, that the driver hardly ever, almost never

3 knew what he was supposed to drive back, and at what price he should get

4 the goods concerned.

5 Q. Sir, you were not engaged in the negotiation of sales and buying,

6 so you don't really know what was already negotiated; isn't that the

7 truth?

8 A. Please. I said that I participated, especially during the war,

9 very often in negotiations, such dealings, and often I travelled with the

10 driver to take goods, to sell goods, and to close such deals because there

11 was not a system of payments that was in place.

12 Q. Sir, you told us and described us which sections the Drina unit

13 had, and you told us that you were the head of the accountancy. You were

14 not a salesperson, and you were not in this service who would negotiate

15 whatever contracts. You are just keeping track of payments and of the

16 accounts in-house. It's not your job to go out to the customers, it was

17 the salespeople; isn't that right?

18 A. That's the way it should be, but that's not the way it could be

19 carried out. If Micun was not there, who was the main salesperson, he

20 would go to the front line and then I would have to take care of that. If

21 I would not be there, then he would take care of my part of the job. So

22 both he and I were involved both in commercial and financial matters.

23 Q. These barter deals, were they done throughout the war, even in

24 1994 and 1995, or did that change?

25 A. As for Yugoslavia, until the present day, the system of payments

Page 7278

1 with Yugoslavia is not in place. That is to say, between Republika Srpska

2 and Yugoslavia there still is not a system of payments. If you want to

3 deliver something, if you want to export something, you have to try to

4 find a bank abroad that does business both with us and with them, and that

5 is how the payments will actually be transacted.

6 Q. You mentioned yesterday that payment system was reinstalled when

7 the Bank of Republika Srpska was established. When was it established?

8 A. The bank, the National Bank of Republika Srpska, was established,

9 as far as I can remember, in May or June because that's when bank notes

10 were being used for the first time, the dinar of the Republika Srpska. At

11 the same time, the dinar of Yugoslavia and the dinar of Republika Srpska

12 were in circulation. Their ratio was one-to-one.

13 Q. And when you say May, June, that's 1992?

14 A. Yes, 1992, that's right.

15 Q. If you compare the pre-war capacity of the Drina economic section

16 with what happened during the war, could you estimate the percentage with

17 which it worked during the war? Could you say which percentage it was

18 compared with pre-war?

19 A. As for the furniture factory, it worked at only 10 per cent of its

20 existing capacity. We made analyses to that effect. As for the farm, it

21 worked to 30 per cent of its capacity. I don't know whether you're

22 interested in the rest.

23 Q. The metalwork shop, that's all.

24 A. The metalwork shop before the war was involved in production, for

25 the most part, of kiosks, metal objects, et cetera. And during the war,

Page 7279

1 we used it for the most part for maintaining existing facilities. So

2 during the war, it did not have any production to speak of. It was more

3 of a service shop for repairs of equipment and facilities.

4 Q. We have discussed the document P86. With the help of the usher, I

5 would like to have it in front of you so it's easier. D, sorry, D86.

6 When you look at this list that you compiled, there were not many sales in

7 relation to furniture in May 1992 and in June, right?

8 A. We had just started selling on the 29th of May. That is the first

9 Furgon of furniture, and then on the 16th of June and then the 26th of

10 July, you can see it all here.

11 Q. Yes. So in May 1992, you were engaged with the repair of the

12 damage and the start of the production, right? You didn't produce much.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Production in the furniture factory was also interrupted by power

15 failures, right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. The business activities in the months May, June and July were

18 therefore rather minimal, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. It started actually looking at your lists in August, September and

21 October being more -- more productive? Business increased?

22 A. That's right, that's right.

23 Q. Business was sometimes also interrupted due to war activities,

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7280

1 Q. Do you recall probably that in June, July 1992, when the Serb

2 forces tried to break through to Gorazde, there was heavy fighting around

3 Foca, right?

4 A. In June and July, 1992, it was further away from Foca. That time

5 there weren't any combat operations in Foca. The separation line was

6 between Gorazde and Foca, about 15 kilometres away, away from Foca, that

7 is.

8 Q. One question in relation to your list, P86. From the position 29

9 onwards, there are only purchases listed and no sales. Can you explain

10 that?

11 A. 29.

12 Q. No, there is one sale, that's the position 31. But then

13 following, there are no sales any more, just purchases.

14 A. The items up here are predominantly items related to sales to the

15 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that is to say Serbia and Montenegro, and

16 the items after number 31, after it says Vares Komerc Niksic is Maglic

17 Foca, Unis Foca, et cetera. That was to say that these were transactions

18 within the town itself.

19 Q. These are also sales?

20 A. Sales. That is column 7. And column 8 are purchases. And column

21 9, the description of what was sold and obtained.

22 Q. Sir, according to the headers from 32 onwards, there are no

23 sales. There are, at least according to how I see it, only purchases.

24 A. No. Look at column number 4. They are the numbers of our

25 accounts, invoice numbers for sale of goods. But it doesn't say which

Page 7281

1 goods. But I know by the invoice numbers that they are products from the

2 farm.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. In relation to the furniture production, where

4 did you -- from where did you receive the timber, the wood, necessary?

5 A. We obtained the timber from Maglic in the same town. Chipboards

6 were obtained from chipboard factory in Pljevlja Sokolac. They were the

7 main manufacturers. Then the upholstery material for settees and sofas

8 were purchased from the commercial companies that had them on stock. What

9 else, I don't know, what else I should mention.

10 Q. During the war, you continued to keep track of which inmate worked

11 where in the various Drina sections, right? During the war, you continued

12 to do that, correct?

13 A. I never kept track of where individual inmates were working. It

14 was the production units who did that, who kept track of who was working

15 where and how much. I was not given those data. Only when we were --

16 calculated the wages for convicts was I given salary lists for those wages

17 to be paid out to inmates, but I didn't get any other information.

18 Q. And during the war, did you continue to get these salary lists?

19 A. For convicts, you mean? I told you that during the war, at first,

20 we only had about 20 or so inmates. We didn't calculate any wages for

21 them. We just provided them with food, hygiene, and medical care, and

22 that was all.

23 Q. But you also mentioned that you kept personal accounts in case

24 these inmates were released. And you did continue to do that, didn't

25 you?

Page 7282













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Page 7283

1 A. Yes, yes, we did. This is still being done to this day.

2 Q. Did I understand you correctly, you did not get any figures

3 related to the Muslims detained?

4 A. No. I have no figures for them, nor did I keep track of them, nor

5 was I given any such figures. That was within somebody else's competence.

6 Q. Whose? Who did this for the Muslims?

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour?

8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Vasic?

9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I think that the translation was

10 wrong. Page 56, line 21, it says here that that was within somebody

11 else's competence. And the witness said that it was not in his -- part of

12 his competency, and that he was given only the information related to the

13 KP Dom responsibilities.

14 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that I can fit that into the framework

15 of the answer as it's recorded. Do you say he said all of those things or

16 are you interpreting something that he said?

17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] He said that, and he said it was not

18 within the competence of the KP Dom, and that is missing from the

19 transcript. I apologise, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I suggest that you ask him the

21 question again and see what his answer is. He does speak very quickly.


23 Q. Sir, we were talking about the Muslim detainees, and you said

24 already that you had no dealings, you did not get any figures related to

25 these detainees. Who -- whose responsibility was it to keep track of the

Page 7284

1 working of the Muslim detainees?

2 A. I don't know that. I think it was the military who had to keep

3 track of those it had captured, where they were working and what they were

4 doing. I really don't know.

5 Q. Why do you think the military would have to keep track of where

6 the Muslim detainees were working when they worked for the Drina Economic

7 Unit? Why do you think it would be the military?

8 A. Probably because if they were their people working for the Drina

9 Economic Unit, they should ask for some compensation from us. That would,

10 for me, be the normal procedure, rather than just giving you men to work

11 for nothing.

12 Q. But they, the military, never asked you or sent you any invoices

13 regarding the work of the Muslim detainees, right? You never received

14 anything like this?

15 A. I never received any document relating to that, because if I had,

16 it would have been certainly registered.

17 Q. In your bookkeeping system related to work done in the various

18 units of the Drina, you never received anything related to the Muslims,

19 the working Muslims?

20 A. As far as I remember, and if I understood your question correctly,

21 I did not. No invoice or bill or anything like that, a salary list or

22 things like that, no.

23 Q. Muslim detainees did not have personal accounts, right?

24 A. With us, no. We had no record of their personal accounts.

25 Q. A business unit has to calculate the price of the products on the

Page 7285

1 basis of the expenditures for producing it, right?

2 A. In principle, when you are calculating the price of a finished

3 product, you take into account, among other things, the cost of labour,

4 material consumed, and things like that. You're quite right.

5 Q. But you never asked where the -- where the figures are for the

6 labour done by the Muslims? You never asked anybody, "Where are those

7 bills? I have to keep track of this in the bookkeeping system." You

8 never asked, right?

9 A. Well, you see, I'm afraid we're not understanding one another.

10 When I say that calculations are done for a certain product, then we say

11 that labour accounts for 5 per cent of the cost. Eighty per cent for the

12 deal, 10 per cent the profit, and that's how we calculate the price of

13 that product. Whether labour will really account for 5 or 6 per cent,

14 that can only be seen at the end.

15 I had nothing to look for. I didn't have reason to ask them, "Why

16 is the cost of labour 5 and not 6 per cent?"

17 Q. Sir, Muslims -- you told us that Muslim detainees worked on the

18 house of Mr. Krnojelac. You never saw an invoice from whoever related to

19 this work, right?

20 A. I never saw an invoice. I just heard that they had worked, and

21 the time when they were cleaning up the town, that they had assisted in

22 rebuilding the roof on his house. I know that. Now, who gave approval,

23 whether it was the municipality or somebody else, I don't know.

24 Fortunately, I didn't opt for the possibility for the municipality to find

25 labour for me, as they did for Milorad.

Page 7286

1 Q. Sir, we are talking about the Drina unit. And these Muslims who

2 worked on the house worked under Mr. Goljanin, right? They were under

3 Relja Goljanin. That is, they were part of Drina, right?

4 A. Relja Goljanin was head of the metal shop or the service shop, and

5 they worked there.

6 Q. Yes. And when Mr. Goljanin sent his workers to work on the house

7 of Mr. Krnojelac, there should be an invoice from the Drina unit to

8 Mr. Krnojelac. Shouldn't there be one?

9 A. I don't know how that whole thing was arranged, so I can't say

10 either yes or no. I don't know what the arrangement was, how it came

11 about that these people went to work on Mr. Krnojelac's house.

12 Q. You, in the bookkeeping system, never saw an invoice from the

13 Drina section, whatever section, to Mr. Krnojelac, the private person

14 Krnojelac, right? You never saw one, not even one?

15 A. I couldn't say that I never saw any such invoice. I do know that

16 Milorad Krnojelac took some furniture and paid for it. I know that

17 certain services were done for him in the metal shop, something to do with

18 doors, and all this was paid. So there were bills made out to Milorad

19 Krnojelac, which he paid for service that he wanted done. And this

20 applies to all employees, not just Milorad. I, for instance, bought a

21 cupboard. I bought some planks and I paid for them.

22 Q. Sir, let's just stay with Mr. Krnojelac. We were talking about

23 the Muslims working on his house, and you didn't see an invoice related to

24 this work?

25 A. That's right.

Page 7287

1 Q. Muslim detainees in the KP Dom, in the metalwork shop, also made

2 an iron staircase for the house of Mr. Krnojelac. You didn't see an

3 invoice related to this, right?

4 A. A metal staircase? I don't remember. As for a door, I do

5 remember there was an invoice and that he paid for it. There were several

6 other bills that he paid.

7 Q. I'm asking for particular bills and invoices. And you didn't see

8 any for a metal staircase?

9 A. I -- for a metal staircase, no.

10 Q. Drivers and trucks of the KP Dom were used on the Krnojelac house

11 construction site. You didn't see any invoice for this, right?

12 A. I'm not sure I saw any invoices. I don't know for a fact.

13 Q. Muslim workers in the metalwork shop made exercise machines for

14 Bozidar Krnojelac. You didn't see any invoice for this, right?

15 A. I don't remember seeing any.

16 Q. Muslims painted Bozidar's apartment. You didn't see any invoice,

17 right?

18 A. I am not aware of that, but I'm afraid I may be wrong, because I

19 do know I saw some invoices. So I'm not sure what they were for. And I

20 want to tell the truth before man and God. I did say that I saw some

21 invoices, but I don't remember what they were for. I don't remember

22 seeing an invoice mentioning a metal staircase for those exercise

23 machines. I didn't read all of them. I know he had five or six invoices

24 which he paid for. Now, what they relate to, please don't make me say

25 something that is not true.

Page 7288

1 Q. You didn't see any invoices for Bozidar Krnojelac, not for his

2 apartment and not for the shelves that the Muslims made for his Cafe Uno,

3 right?

4 A. I am not aware of them making them nor what they made them from.

5 I really don't know.

6 Q. Sir, I would like to address a few of these travel authorisations

7 that you had already discussed with Defence counsel. I just have a few

8 additional questions, and the first is related to P90, P90. Sorry, it's

9 "D" again. Sorry, D90.

10 Sir, just a few additional questions. This handwritten number

11 313/10, this 10, what does it refer to? Is it a certain cashier or what

12 is it, the number 10 in this handwritten number?

13 A. Correct. It is a certain cashier. A cashier registers every

14 document on a daily basis in his diary, and I claim that this document was

15 registered by the cashier in diary number 10, under number 313, as

16 document 313.

17 Q. And on the form, on the bottom of the form, there is mentioned a

18 logbook where these travel authorisations are logged in. Was there one

19 logbook for all travel authorisations or did the warden have a separate

20 logbook?

21 A. You mean the record of issued travel authorisations in the upper

22 right-hand corner. There was a unified record for all workers. When they

23 go on a trip, a travel authorisation is written under that number.

24 As for the cashier's diary or logbook, it is a single one.

25 Whether it is for the payment of travel expenses, salaries, material

Page 7289













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7290

1 purchased or payment for a certain bill, all these are noted down

2 consecutively in the logbook.

3 Q. And related to this particular authorisation number 90, there was

4 also the document D90/1. That was a bill. And I just want to know from

5 you, when you look at the bill, if you know who was sharing the room with

6 Mr. Krnojelac. Do you know this Slobodan Gagovic?

7 A. This is a bill issued in the name of Milorad Krnojelac and

8 Slobodan Gagovic.

9 Q. Yes. And who is that? Who is Slobodan Gagovic?

10 A. I really cannot remember. Slobodan Gagovic? Just now I am unable

11 to remember that person, who that person is.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

13 go to D92.

14 Q. Go to the next document.

15 A. May I just add something linked to the bill that you just showed

16 me? In the travel authorisation for Milorad Krnojelac, only half of this

17 bill was paid. So it is really irrelevant who the other person was.

18 Q. For you, sir. This travel authorisation, D92, does not bear any

19 indication when he came back and how long he was supposed to travel,

20 right? It says here the 24 June 1992 and that's it. There is no other

21 date, correct?

22 A. Yes. May I continue?

23 Q. I have some more questions. You said that an employee is entitled

24 to seven days paid leave --

25 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, as I understood the witness, he

Page 7291

1 wanted to continue with his answer.


3 Q. You want to add something to this question? Please continue.

4 A. See, up here in the right-hand corner, it says, "A copy for the

5 cashier." So this is not the complete travel authorisation document.

6 I've already explained that once. It has -- there is a double sheet

7 inside on the first page --

8 Q. You don't need to repeat this. This is understood. My question

9 was only an additional question. It's not that you have to repeat it. We

10 have all understood what you meant. I ask only some additional

11 questions. Sir, you said that an employee is entitled to seven days paid

12 leave in case of a serious injury or death of a relative, and can even get

13 unpaid leave. That's what you said. That's the general rule, right?

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. When an employee has a very important position, such as the

16 warden, and the institution cannot afford him being away for that long, he

17 does not stay away that long, right? The institution comes first; that's

18 correct, right?

19 A. In cases like the one that Milorad Krnojelac had, he only has to

20 make sure that there is someone to stand in for him, and I don't know how

21 anyone would expect somebody to leave his child fighting for his life

22 without visiting him. I don't see what excuse could exist, what reason

23 could exist, for him not to say, just because he was in charge of the KP

24 Dom. That is my opinion, anyway.

25 Q. Witness, we are not talking about Mr. Krnojelac not travelling at

Page 7292

1 all. We were talking about long periods of absence. That is something

2 that has to be approached with the employer and it has to be fitted to the

3 work that the person does. It has to be found a compromise going forth

4 and back, for instance. Isn't that correct?

5 A. How, for instance, would such a person be able to use his annual

6 leave, then, if it was not possible to leave his job for a month? I think

7 that he has to find an adequate replacement, somebody who will take his

8 place in his absence.

9 Q. But no one was appointed acting warden in June 1992, right?

10 Nobody else was appointed acting warden?

11 A. No, no one was.

12 Q. Sir, have a last look at the document D92, and you see there the

13 register number 37/92.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness document D92-1.

17 Q. Sir, when you look at this payment, you do not find the number

18 37/92 on this payment notice. You find a different number, right? It's

19 55/92.

20 A. Yes, but that's another document, 55/92. That is the decision in

21 relation to which I said that it was taken for Milorad Krnojelac, due to

22 the serious wounding of his son, be allotted an allowance triple the

23 average personal income, and the decision -- that's the decision that

24 55/92 refers to. It was also made on the 24th of June, the same date as

25 the travel authorisation was issued to Milorad Krnojelac to go to Belgrade

Page 7293

1 and to collect 200.000 dinars. So he was granted the sum of 300.000. He

2 took an advance of 200.000. And 1.000 was paid to him subsequently on the

3 28th. But it's not 1.000, it's really 10.000 because of the denomination

4 that occurred on the 31st of July. Otherwise, the sum here would have

5 been 100.000.

6 Q. This is understood, sir. The question is what kind of a decision

7 do you mean? This travel -- this travelling of Mr. Krnojelac has the

8 register number 37/92. What other decision is there than this travel

9 authorisation with this number?

10 A. The travel authorisation is -- has the Registry number 37/92. The

11 decision 55/92 is not attached, that this document is referring to. But

12 it certainly exists because I'm well aware of that case. It was a

13 prominent event that occurred in his life, and I remember that well. So

14 first of all, a decision was taken, that is on the same day the travel

15 authorisation was issued to him, and this decision in those days was

16 drafted by the head of our legal department, to pay him whatever he was

17 entitled to. And that is what is written in the decision that you do not

18 have attached here but only the number of that is referred to -- of that

19 decision is referred to.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, it's 11.00.

21 JUDGE HUNT: 1.00.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: 1.00, yes.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Vasic, I would like to point out that the answer

24 which your witness gave, when asked it again following your intervention,

25 was almost exactly the same as the one which was recorded in the

Page 7294

1 transcript. So you must allow the interpreters some leeway on this. You

2 may have thought he said something in addition, but the effect of his

3 second answer is exactly the same as the one which was given in the

4 transcript. So may I suggest to you that you just wait a little while

5 before you assert that there is something wrong with the translation.

6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. But I am

7 quite sure that the witness mentioned the word "KP Dom" and maybe the tape

8 can be listened to again. But I should like to say that my learned friend

9 put the question quite differently the second time than she did the first

10 time. So that the point was no longer the KP Dom. Maybe that explains

11 the answer given.

12 In any event, thank you for your cautioning me, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE HUNT: We will resume at 2.30.

14 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.












Page 7295

1 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.

2 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

3 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

7 show the witness the documents D80, 81, and 82.

8 Q. Witness, we do not have to repeat the contents of these

9 documents. I just want to ask you in relation to the format of these

10 documents.

11 You see the document D80 refers to a request dated 7th May 1992.

12 You see that date on the bottom?

13 A. Yes, I can see that.

14 Q. Can you now look at document D81? It's from the same date, and

15 it's also from Mr. Krnojelac as acting warden, right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The first document, D80, is in Latin script, and the document 81

18 is in Cyrillic. Can you explain that?

19 A. Obviously this was done on two different typewriters, one

20 Cyrillic, the other Latin script.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac had one secretary, right?

22 A. Yes, he had one secretary, but there were several typewriters.

23 Q. Do you see a reason why a letter to the executive committee would

24 have been written on the Latin typewriter and one to the police office on

25 the Cyrillic? Is there any particular reason that you could think of?

Page 7296













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7297

1 A. I don't think that there is. The typewriter that was right there

2 at hand was used.

3 Q. Sir, when you look at document 82, it's to the -- a document

4 addressed to the police station in Foca, and it's dated 8th of May, 1992,

5 and it actually relates to the same issue, that is, allocating a passenger

6 vehicle. This is now again Latin, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. The document 81 is not signed. It has no signature of

9 Mr. Krnojelac on it, right?

10 A. I see that it's not signed.

11 Q. Could one of these documents, especially 81 or 82, have been only

12 a draft that was actually not sent out? Is that possible?

13 A. I don't believe that. I am aware of this subject matter. This is

14 certainly a document, this document 81. It's a document stating all the

15 vehicles that we had lost. We did not have a single vehicle left in the

16 KP Dom and that's why document 82 was written. We really did not have

17 anything to go to town with.

18 Q. Sir, that is not disputed. But you wouldn't have to write two

19 different letters to the same office for the same request, one day after

20 the other. My question was only: Is it a possibility that one of them

21 was only a draft which was not sent out? Just a possibility.

22 A. Document 80 relates to the executive council of the Serb

23 municipality of Foca. Then the other document is to the Serb police

24 station in Foca. These are two different institutions.

25 Document 81, the Serb police station in Foca. Document 81

Page 7298

1 explains what vehicles went missing, that we haven't got a single vehicle

2 left. One of these documents is sent to the police station and the other

3 one to the executive council.

4 Q. Sir, we were talking about the documents 82 and 81, and they are

5 both to the Serbian police station in Foca, they are both about the cars

6 that were -- that went missing, and they are both about allocating a

7 replacement.

8 I'm talking about these two documents, and I'm asking you, is it

9 possible that one of them was just the draft that wasn't sent?

10 A. I think that both were sent. 81 has a signature. It was received

11 by some Dostic person. I know him personally actually at the police

12 station over there. As for 82, I don't see any reason why it would not be

13 sent.

14 Q. The reason would have been that a letter was then sent already on

15 the same request one day earlier. You wouldn't need two letters on the

16 same issue.

17 A. I would not know of any other explanation. I think both letters

18 were sent.

19 Q. Sir, another question I have in relation to the document 84.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can it be put in front of the witness.

21 Q. Sir, this document, we have -- you have already discussed it with

22 Defence counsel and I have only two questions. On top of the address

23 there is a number 24 point. Do you know what that refers to? Above the

24 Republika Srpska header.

25 A. I see that. I see number 24. I don't know what it pertains to.

Page 7299

1 I don't know if something has been changed or something, but as far as I

2 can see, this is page number 9.

3 Q. What do you mean with page number 9?

4 A. I don't know. I can see it up here.

5 Q. Oh, yes. I see it.

6 A. And here it says, "Please find enclosed the revised financial plan

7 for the required production equipment for the Foca KP Dom," et cetera.

8 And this financial plan, the revised financial plan, probably had eight

9 pages and this was the ninth page.

10 Q. Yes, I didn't see the number 9 because it's not on the

11 translation. I was looking at the English document so I was wondering.

12 Sir, is that revised financial plan, was that something you worked on?

13 The other eight pages that we can't see because it's not in our document

14 collection, would that be something you had worked on?

15 A. I certainly worked on part of this revised plan, because the

16 figures presented here and the information related to finance is something

17 that only I could have done or somebody else who worked with me. That is

18 to say, how much we got from the budget from the day the war conflict

19 broke out until the day the revised plan was made, how much should be

20 earmarked according to our plan, and also what the difference involved

21 would be.

22 Q. This revised financial plan that you had made, do you recall what

23 it looked like? Is it what you had explained to us earlier on when you

24 said that you made kind of a balance form of a report? Is that the

25 half-year report? Or is that something else?

Page 7300

1 A. It mostly resembles that annual report that is sent. And it shows

2 all financial needs, that is to say food, equipment for the convicted

3 persons, then investment, maintenance, then repairs of buildings and

4 facilities, and then the amount needed for salaries and other material

5 expenses on the one hand. But that even goes in greater detail: how much

6 for food, how much for medicine, how much for medical care, et cetera.

7 That is to say that the structure of these expenditures is laid out in

8 detail. Most of this revised plan comes in tables, surveys of that type.

9 Q. Thank you. And in this document D84, in the last paragraph, it

10 says, "Added is a separate list of employees -- employed workers with

11 qualification," and also it refers to wages. This document is not

12 attached. You would have compiled this document as well, this list? You

13 see that?

14 A. I haven't got that. Is that in here, in D84?

15 Q. No, we didn't get this list. My question is only this separate

16 list of employees with their wages, that is here actually mentioned in

17 this letter but that we do not have, did you also make this list?

18 A. That list also went within the revised financial plan.

19 Q. Mr. Krnojelac had the highest salary, right? There is no doubt

20 about that, right?

21 A. The warden of the KP Dom always had the highest salary, and the

22 director of the Economic Unit Drina.

23 Q. Do you recall if Mr. Tesovic, working on the farm in whatever

24 position at that time, was he also on the list?

25 A. I think that Mr. Tesovic came to the farm sometime towards the end

Page 7301

1 of May 1992, and he worked at the farm at this time because this was

2 written on the 15th of November 1992. I think he was there.

3 Q. He was not the director of the farm, right, at that time?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What position did he have?

6 A. Since before the war, he worked as warden. He had these business

7 partners whom he knew. He went to buy cattle feed most of the time for

8 that particular work unit.

9 Q. He earned much less than Mr. Krnojelac, right?

10 A. Well, those salaries were so minimal, and they were almost the

11 same. However, it is natural that he'd have a lower salary, because

12 salaries in our part of the world are given according to the job that you

13 perform. Since he was not warden or director, it was only natural that he

14 had a lower salary.

15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: With the help of the usher, I would like to

16 show the witness now - and this is the last document - document D85.

17 Q. Sir, you have already discussed this document with the Defence

18 counsel, and you mentioned that the first part referring to information on

19 convicted persons, that looks familiar to you and you know these kind of

20 reports, right; that is, the first ten pages?

21 A. Well, I see the first ten pages refer to convicted persons who

22 came to serve their sentences before the war and who were there.

23 Q. Yes. And it says this is a report to the Ministry of Justice, and

24 in the subject, when you look at the first page -- look at the first page,

25 please, sir. The first page. It refers to information on convicted

Page 7302

1 persons serving sentences in the KP Dom.

2 So that is something you are familiar with. You know that such

3 kind of reports were sent to the Ministry, right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This second part, this different document that is called Report on

6 the Situation of the Foca KP Dom, that doesn't relate to this subject.

7 It's kind of additional, right?

8 A. You mean this information concerning the situation on -- in the

9 Foca KP Dom.

10 Q. Yes. That's a different issue, and it's not addressed in the

11 subject matter on the first page at all, right?

12 A. I think that this is a report sent to the Ministry of Justice

13 about the KP Dom in general; when it was established, what its capacity

14 is, how many convicts were there before the war, et cetera, a general part

15 related to the characteristics of the KP Dom. That's what I can see on

16 the basis of what I've been shown just now. It says that 327 employees

17 were employed at the KP Dom, some of Serb ethnicity, others of other

18 ethnicities, et cetera, et cetera. Within the KP Dom, there was also a

19 women's ward, things like that.

20 Q. Yes. Sir, you did not -- you did not see this additional report

21 before, right? You did not see it in 1992, did you?

22 A. I cannot say whether I saw it or not. The material dealt with in

23 this paper is familiar to me. I did not sign this or anything, but the

24 data used -- the data that I worked on was used, that is to say, the

25 report of that commission that was assessing damage, then also data from

Page 7303













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7304

1 the survey, the table concerning sales and purchases, and also other data

2 were used from the farm.

3 I personally am not the author of this, but undoubtedly this is

4 the kind of report that was sent, because all of this was sent at the

5 request of the Ministry of Justice.

6 Q. Sir, you can only say that some of the information that you

7 actually put together is used in this report. That's all you can say,

8 right?

9 A. I can say precisely what you've said just now. Some of the

10 information that I mentioned was used, and also new information was used

11 as well. I gave data here. For example, in my first report, there is no

12 data about the production at the farm. In this report, there is

13 information about farm production. Then my report was done on the 15th of

14 October, and this one was done on the 24th of November. That is to say

15 that this is a report that brings together all of this and contains data

16 about the convicted persons, about the general characteristics of the

17 KP Dom itself. This is a comprehensive report that was requested by the

18 KP -- that was requested from the KP Dom by the Ministry of Justice, and I

19 think it was as far back as the meeting in Bijeljina that the warden went

20 to that it was requested.

21 Q. Sir, just before we went to this document 85, we discussed the

22 document 84, and you said you made a revised financial plan for the

23 Ministry of Justice for information. You also told us that you made a

24 very professional six-month report to the Ministry of Justice, and you

25 mentioned that six months later, you did the same thing.

Page 7305

1 There was no need for this rather brief and not very

2 professionally drafted information, right? There was no need. You had

3 made all the necessary documents, very proper, professional documents at

4 the same time.

5 A. Please. As for the revised financial plan, it is made in a way

6 similar to that in which a budget is made; tables, then assets in the

7 sense of revenues and expenditures, et cetera. Then also I explained to

8 you how the balances are made on a six-month basis. And then on the basis

9 of this six-month report, one could not see at all how many eggs were

10 specifically produced and how much milk was produced, et cetera, because

11 you don't go into such detail. You only have financial indicators there.

12 Whereas here I can see in this report indicators in kind. And at that

13 time, they were far more important than financial indicators, because

14 today it would be worth a thousand, the next day it would be worth 500,

15 because as inflation was raging, financial indicators were highly

16 unreliable.

17 Q. Sir, you did not draft this report. You did not send it. You

18 cannot state with any certainty that this attachment to the report about

19 the convicts was actually attached in 1992 and was sent to the Ministry of

20 Justice, right? You cannot say that because you don't know, right?

21 A. As for this report, I participated to the extent I mentioned.

22 That is to say with data for compiling the report. I did not bring all of

23 this together. I did not send this.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Sir, please, sir, you have told us that now twice.

25 We don't want to hear it a third time. You can answer that question that

Page 7306

1 you were asked "yes" or "no." Now, you do not know whether that

2 particular attachment was with that document when -- with the letter when

3 it was sent in 1992. That's the question.

4 A. I cannot claim that it was or that it was not. I don't know.

5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Thank you, that's enough with the

6 documents.

7 Q. Sir, I would like to show you Exhibit 6, that is a map of the KP

8 Dom, just to clarify one matter with you which we could not clarify with

9 another witness because he had problems with the eye. I hope you have no

10 problems with your eye and you can actually see the plan. Sir, we have --

11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Please move it a little bit down. Yes. So

12 that's fine.

13 Q. Sir, this is a part of the floor plan or the ground plan of the KP

14 Dom and you can see there -- can you clearly see the word as it says,

15 "Zgrada Straze", "guard house"? Can you see that? And can you also read

16 the other words in your language? Can you read the words?

17 A. I have to try to find my way here.

18 Q. Where you see -- where you see the guard house, where you see the

19 word "guard house," there is a door indicated. That is the entrance to

20 the KP Dom. You see that?

21 A. Yes, yes, I see that.

22 Q. And left from this entrance, you see the metalwork shop and

23 actually the wall between the guard house and the metalwork shop, right?

24 Can you see that?

25 A. I can.

Page 7307

1 Q. Can you point out to us where the fuel was stored in the KP Dom?

2 Is that visible on this plan?

3 A. This workshop? This workshop of the metal shop area was not drawn

4 properly. Here where the entrance is between the compound and the other

5 part, whatever it says here, "shop," whatever, and there is a wall here,

6 and there is a big gate here. Freight vehicles can get into the compound

7 through that. And then looking downstream in terms of the Drina, on the

8 left-hand side, there should be a partition here. And then there is an

9 office there for the drivers, for the rolling stock. And then there are

10 one, two, three garages, and here in these garages was where the reserve

11 fuel was, a barrel or two. So this drawing is not good.

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. The witness was indicating the right

13 side of the metal shop, the lower building metal shop, next to this gate.

14 Q. And could you reach this room where the drivers were from outside

15 the gate, from outside of the KP Dom, or would you have to go through the

16 gate?

17 A. No. There is a separate entrance into the office of the rolling

18 stock and a separate entrance to the metal shop. I said there should be a

19 line here. This is the entrance to the metal complex, and then before

20 that, there is a small entrance into the office.

21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was now indicating a little

22 entrance before the metal gate to the -- before the gate to -- into the

23 metal compound. Yes, thank you.

24 Q. And can you show us also on this map -- can you show us where the

25 trucks and the vehicles of the KP Dom were parked?

Page 7308

1 A. I didn't show you two gates. I showed you one gate entering the

2 metal shop compound. To the left of that gate is the entrance door to the

3 office. There is no other gate. It is simply the entrance into the

4 office of the rolling stock.

5 Q. Yes. And you could -- if I understand you correctly, you could

6 enter this certain shop part of the metal shop without going through the

7 gate into the compound. You could reach it from before?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And would you now please point out the spot where the parking spot

10 -- where the cars of the KP Dom were parked. That is, the trucks and the

11 other vehicles; is it also seen on this map?

12 A. The parking space for KP Dom vehicles were across the road leading

13 from town towards the hospital. But you could reach these buildings by

14 car. But vehicles were not usually parked there, in front of the entrance

15 into the building. We would park vehicles across the road.

16 Q. Was there a parking spot also in front of the garage where the

17 cars were serviced?

18 A. There is some space here between the gate and this guard house.

19 There is an area of three or four metres and it is possible to park a car

20 there.

21 Q. Sir, I was actually asking --

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we fold it a little bit different? Can

23 you give it again to me? It has to be lower.

24 Q. Sir, you see the auto mechanic shop? You see that?

25 A. I do.

Page 7309

1 Q. Were cars parked within the metalwork shop compound right from the

2 auto mechanical shop inside -- inside the metal compound?

3 A. The area I'm pointing to, there was space for parking vehicles.

4 When they came out of the auto mechanical workshop, they could be parked

5 here, but there was also room for parking here.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness was pointing out the free space

7 between the auto mechanic workshop and the two metal shop buildings right

8 from the auto mechanic shop.

9 Q. And cars were parked there in the evenings as well so that they

10 are safe, right? Trucks and cars of the KP Dom were parked inside there

11 for safety reasons, right?

12 A. I didn't enter the compound, so I really don't know where they

13 parked them. I am just looking according to this ground plan where there

14 is room for parking. Whether they actually parked them there, I don't

15 know.

16 Q. So you don't know actually where the cars were parked?

17 A. The real prescribed parking area is across this main road. Here

18 there's a large parking lot. And I'm just telling you where there was

19 room, and vehicles were parked temporarily in front of the gate. One

20 vehicle could be parked. Then next to the auto mechanical workshop, both

21 on the left- and right-hand side, there was room for parking. And I don't

22 know where they parked them.

23 Q. The huge parking lot that you mentioned, that's along the Drina

24 River where also the broken-down cars were, or what do you mean?

25 A. No, they weren't broken down. There were others that were

Page 7310













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7311

1 running. There were others that were broken down. But the large

2 furniture vans could be parked there, large trailer trucks. This was a

3 much larger parking area.

4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you. That's enough.

5 Q. Sir, we have already addressed the matter that detainees worked on

6 the house of Mr. Krnojelac, but I forgot to ask you: Did you ever go

7 there and see them there work?

8 A. I didn't. I just heard that the inmates did go, upon the approval

9 of the executive council, to do some work. I didn't go with them, nor did

10 I watch it or see it. I had nothing to do with the inmates, the convicts,

11 or the captured persons. I had no business relationship with them at

12 all.

13 Q. Sir, you mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac was assigned temporary

14 warden at a time when Mr. Tesovic was not there. Mr. Tesovic actually was

15 at that time accompanying the convicts, the Muslim convicts who had been

16 kept in the KP Dom before the war. Are you aware of this?

17 A. I heard that when the war broke out, they were taken away. Not

18 just Muslims but Croats and Serbs that wanted to go were taken out of the

19 KP Dom. And they were transported by trucks to Montenegro via Serbia, and

20 I don't know where they were taken to. I think the prison in Tuzla.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. That is what I heard.

23 Q. So when Mr. Krnojelac was appointed temporary warden, Mr. Tesovic

24 was actually -- the pre-war warden was actually outside of the KP Dom on

25 official business, right?

Page 7312

1 A. Don't ask me to say whether it was official or unofficial. He was

2 absent due to the circumstances. He didn't have travel authorisation or

3 anything like that.

4 Q. How do you know that?

5 A. He was absent.

6 Q. How do you know that, that he didn't have travel authorisation?

7 How do you know that?

8 A. I know there was no one to give him a travel authorisation. They

9 only just managed to take the people out in the midst of the crossfire, to

10 take them out of the KP Dom. The story was going round all the time about

11 this. All the guards who were working at the time were saying what

12 difficulties and trouble they had to get them out.

13 Q. But how can you say that he didn't have travel authorisation? How

14 can you say that? You were not there and you did not know whom he talked

15 to before he went, right? You don't know.

16 A. I don't know. But if he had had a travel authorisation, he would

17 have brought it to me, like all the other travel authorisations, for

18 settlement.

19 Q. But you were not there. You told us that you were in Orahovo.

20 But let's move on.

21 A. I was, but I was there after the war.

22 Q. Mr. Tesovic did return in April 1992?

23 A. I think that no one -- in April 1992?

24 Q. Yes. He returned, right?

25 A. I don't know exactly when he returned. I don't think he had

Page 7313

1 returned by April 1992.

2 Q. Why do you think that?

3 A. I think that because at the time when we started working, he was

4 absent, because I started working at the end of April 1992. It was the

5 24th or the 25th, and I'm quite sure he wasn't there then. At least I

6 didn't see him.

7 Q. But you do not know when exactly he returned?

8 A. I don't know when exactly he returned, but I'm sure it wasn't in

9 April. At least, that's what I think. As far as I can remember, he

10 appeared sometime in May, maybe in the second half. I don't know the

11 date, so please don't hold me to that.

12 Q. When Mr. Tesovic returned, he did not resume his position as

13 warden. Mr. Krnojelac stayed on as acting warden, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did Mr. Tesovic refuse to take his former position? Do you know?

16 A. I don't know whether it was offered to him or that he refused it.

17 So really, I was busy taking care of myself at the time. I was not

18 involved in any politics at all, so I really don't know why he didn't

19 return or whether he should have returned.

20 Q. Sir, before the war, you had been a reserve officer in the TO,

21 right?

22 A. Yes, until I turned 50 or maybe a bit earlier.

23 Q. What rank did you have?

24 A. I had the rank of lieutenant, a financial specialist.

25 Q. And Mr. Krnojelac had the rank of Captain First Class in the TO,

Page 7314

1 right? You know that?

2 A. I think so. I never went for exercises or training with him, but

3 I think that's what he was.

4 Q. Sir, you said that you left the TO when you became 50. That was

5 not really the reason. It was because you were not healthy. Isn't that

6 the reason? You were not fit any longer for military service, right?

7 A. I didn't abandon that position nor did I apply. Five or six years

8 prior to the war, I was given a wartime assignment to Civil Defence

9 without any explanation. No one asked me whether I wanted it, you simply

10 got a piece of paper saying, "Change of Wartime Assignment."

11 Q. So it's only your assumption that the retiring age is 50. You

12 don't know for sure, right?

13 A. I heard that, and learnt that during the actual conflict, because

14 there was the principle that people over 50 would not be sent to military

15 units. However, later on -- that was at first. But later on, the limit

16 was raised to 55, and that is how it happened that I had to join a

17 military unit.

18 Q. Sir, the retirement age in the reserve forces, according to the

19 national law, defence law, of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

20 was 60, wasn't it?

21 A. But I think that includes civil defence.

22 Q. So it was 60, not 50? The retirement age according to the

23 national defence law was 60, for men that is.

24 A. I think it was that people over 50 would not be deployed to

25 Territorial Defence units. As for civil defence units, they could be

Page 7315

1 assigned, and there were in fact people in the age group between 50 and

2 60. That is what I think and that is the practice that was implemented

3 during the mobilisation during the war, and that is why I'm saying what

4 I'm saying.

5 Q. Sir, with the help of the usher, I would put in front of you the

6 constitution of -- the law on national defence. Sir, I put in front of

7 you the law on national defence of Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina,

8 from March 1992, and you see there Article 19, and it refers to citizens

9 from age 15 to 60, in brackets men, and from 15 to 55, in brackets women.

10 You see that?

11 A. Excuse me?

12 Q. Do you see that?

13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The witness answers, I think he said, "I see

14 it," but it's not in the interpretation.

15 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't hear it.


17 Q. Sir, the interpreters didn't hear you. What did you say to my

18 question, if you see this paragraph -- Article 19?

19 A. The right and duty to be trained for national defence belongs to

20 citizens from age 15 to 60 for men and 55 for women.

21 Q. Thank you, sir. So --

22 A. That is what this article says.

23 Q. Sir, I -- yes.

24 A. But this covers the Territorial Defence and the civil defence.

25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend have a copy

Page 7316

1 for the Defence? We do not have this law with us.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have made it in the break, we

3 had made the copies. We only were aware of the issue, that it would come

4 up, today.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I wonder what value it is to ask

6 this witness. Is he a lawyer that can give evidence about what the law

7 is?


9 JUDGE HUNT: If this is what the law is and it's some form of

10 official document, it proves itself.


12 JUDGE HUNT: You're cross-examining him to suggest that his

13 assertion that you wouldn't be serving after 50 is wrong.


15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if I may say so, that is not really the way to

16 do it. You should ask him first whether he knew of that and now, knowing

17 it, does he still assert that they would not be called up after the age of

18 50. And if he says that he's got some explanation for it, we can take

19 that into account. But we are not being told as a matter of evidence what

20 the law is here. If you want to prove the law, you prove it, by all

21 means. You go ahead. Tender the documents.


23 JUDGE HUNT: If they have some probative value, you can do it that

24 way.

25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Sir, Your Honour, I just wanted to avoid to

Page 7317













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7318

1 have more documents in the case.

2 JUDGE HUNT: But Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, this is important. Both

3 sides seem to think that you can ask any witness anything that is in a

4 document. Well, unless he can say, "Well, now having seen it in the

5 document, I know that to be the fact," there is no evidence of that fact.

6 So I'm only trying to ensure that we don't have arguments later as to

7 whether these things are in evidence. That's why I suggest you do it in a

8 formal way so there can't be such arguments.

9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour. Then the Prosecution would

10 like to enter the law on national defence from March 1992. It's the

11 Official Gazette. Would like to enter it into evidence. Can it be given

12 to the Defence and --

13 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any objection to the tender?

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if we may be permitted a

15 few minutes to look through it and then tell you whether we have any

16 objection? We just got it a minute ago.

17 JUDGE HUNT: Either the document is an official document or not.

18 You'll certainly get every opportunity to read it. All I want to know is

19 do you object to the tender of that particular document. If you do - and

20 I'm not suggesting you can't object to it until you've had a chance to

21 read it - let us know and we will get on to something else whilst you do

22 read it.

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we wanted to ask your

24 indulgence for a few minutes to look through this document, upon which we

25 will state our position.

Page 7319

1 JUDGE HUNT: My concern is I don't want to hold up the evidence.

2 Let's leave it to one side for the moment and it can be dealt with after

3 the Defence has had the opportunity to read it. That's a perfectly

4 reasonable request on their part. It's a very big document. We don't

5 need this witness here whilst they read it.

6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honour, that's right.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Let's get on to the next point, please.


9 Q. Sir, you have told us that when you -- that you were actually

10 mobilised and that you switched between soldier's duty at the high school

11 and work at the KP Dom. That's what you told us. And I would like to

12 know your assignment in relation to the work duty in the KP Dom. You got

13 it through the municipality building; is that correct?

14 A. Please. In the month of April, I went to the Ministry of National

15 Defence and that's what they told me. "You are going for work

16 obligation. You're a man who is 50. Go and do your work obligation at

17 the KP Dom." That's where I was.

18 No one touched me until the month of July, 1992. Then all of a

19 sudden, the duty officer called me and said, "Go and report to the school

20 centre." I went to the school centre. I reported there. They said

21 mobilisation, "Because of some kind of war danger, this or that, it is

22 your task to be on guard at the school centre." And that's how I was

23 there for seven days.

24 Then they said, "Give back the rifle that has been issued to you

25 and go for work obligation." And that's the way it was.

Page 7320

1 The next time, again, the duty officer called and said, "Report

2 for mobilisation." Again they gave me a rifle and a uniform and then to

3 the village of Jabuka. And then over there, it was usually a unit that

4 consisted of people around my age from different work organisations and we

5 made up that unit. We would be in the village of Jabuka for 10 or 15 days

6 and then again they would take us back. Again we'd return the rifles that

7 we were issued before that and then back to work obligation.

8 Then in December, when what happened happened in Josanica, that

9 misfortune, this massacre of the Serb people there, then again

10 mobilisation, again they gave us a rifle and said, "Go up there above

11 Josanica to the village of Papok," and then again there we spent about ten

12 days. And then we went back again home.

13 And then again we returned the rifles that we had been issued.

14 And then we went for work obligation. And that's the way it was during

15 that year. I said that quite clearly and please don't --

16 Q. Sir, when you had your guard duties in whatever place, you had a

17 soldier's uniform, right?

18 A. Yes, I did. I told you that. I got one when they mobilised me

19 the first time.

20 Q. But you never used this uniform in the KP Dom while you worked

21 there, right?

22 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I did wear it sometimes, either the

23 trousers or the shirt, and I'd combine it. One garment would be civilian,

24 the other military, and I'd go to work. And one garment would be a

25 policeman's garment and that was that. Especially in the winter. The

Page 7321

1 overcoat I got in Livade at the beginning of the war, when I was there for

2 one day, I wore that overcoat all the time. I told you that.

3 Q. Sir, when you got these military assignments, did you ever get

4 something in writing from the military command or was it just this duty

5 officer sending you to whatever place? Did you ever get something in

6 writing about your assignment as a soldier?

7 A. Only the duty officer would call me and say, "Bozo, they're

8 calling you to report at the school centre," or somewhere else. I did not

9 get any decision in writing stating that I would be allocated here or

10 there.

11 Q. You mentioned that you took notes on the morning meetings of

12 higher-ranking staff. It were for informal meetings, right? It was not

13 official -- official work meetings?

14 A. I said that I took along with me a notebook, and whenever we were

15 at such meetings, I took notes in terms of what I had done and what I was

16 supposed to do. It's not that I kept any kind of formal minutes and then

17 retyped it and sent it out to someone or something.

18 Q. And Mr. Rasevic, the guard commander, did not participate because

19 he does not drink coffee, right?

20 A. I had nothing to do with him. Why would we have meetings

21 together? I had meetings with the warden. If you think that these were

22 the meetings that you want with heads of the commercial departments,

23 because we agreed with the warden as to what we should do in the economic

24 sector, not in terms of what the security and the military were doing.

25 That was not our field of work.

Page 7322

1 Q. The warden had also monthly meetings with the other high-ranking

2 staff, such as Mr. Rasevic, right? Are you aware of this?

3 A. Well, I don't know whether he had meetings. I know that

4 Mr. Rasevic also went to see the warden. On what business, I don't know.

5 Q. Mr. Todovic also had meetings, right, with Mr. Krnojelac? He was

6 a higher-ranking person, right?

7 A. I don't know whether those were meetings in an official sense or

8 just discussions, talks, whatever. I know what was discussed at meetings

9 that I attended, but what they did, I really don't know. How could that

10 happen? Why would they call me, a bookkeeper, when they were discussing I

11 don't know what?

12 Q. You do not know the exact position that Mr. Todovic had during the

13 war, right? You can't say?

14 A. I know that before the war, Mr. Todovic worked as a clerk for

15 employment and for the rehabilitation of convicted persons. I know that.

16 I know that at the beginning of the war, he was engaged as a soldier. And

17 I know that during the war, he did not do any kind of work with us. Now,

18 what authority he had as a soldier, that I don't know.

19 Q. Mr. Todovic assigned detainees or inmates for work assignments in

20 the Drina section -- sections, in the various Drina sections. Are you

21 aware of this?

22 A. I heard about that both from guards and foremen in productive

23 units where these people worked, and I never saw what these permits looked

24 like or did any one of them ever work with me or did I ever find it

25 necessary to ask him for anything.

Page 7323

1 Q. Were you present in the KP Dom when the detainee Ekrem Zekovic

2 escaped in summer 1993?

3 A. I don't know who -- I don't know which month this was. Actually,

4 I did hear about the case. I really did hear people talking about it.

5 And I think that was the only case, as far as I know, that one of the

6 detained persons of Muslim ethnicity tried to escape. I really have not

7 heard of any other case except for that particular case. They called him

8 Zeko. That was his nickname. I don't even know his real name.

9 Q. When he escaped and was recaptured, the guards and the

10 administration actually were relieved when he had been captured, right?

11 They feared consequences.

12 A. I don't know about guards. However, as far as administration

13 staff is concerned, those who worked with me, we really had nothing to do

14 with this, nor did we know when he escaped, nor did we know when he was

15 caught until people started talking about it.

16 Q. But it was well-known within the KP Dom then among the staff that

17 someone had actually succeeded to escape, right?

18 A. It was -- well, no. People talked about it, talked about it in

19 town, too, and then that's the atmosphere that prevailed. If an unknown

20 person would come up, it could have involved danger. So that's the kind

21 of talk that went on around town.

22 Q. Did the guards that were on duty in the workshop on that day, did

23 they suffer any consequences because of this escape? Do you know that?

24 A. Well, honestly, you're asking me about things that I don't know

25 about. Guards were soldiers. They had special assignments. I worked in

Page 7324













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14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7325

1 the economic sector, in an office. I really don't know how they caught

2 him or how he escaped in the first place and whether they suffered any

3 consequences and whether they were punished and whether they were not

4 punished and by who. I really don't know anything about this. I just

5 heard people talking about a detainee having escaped and that they caught

6 him and that his nickname was Zeko. I never even knew his real name or

7 anything. So that's the only thing I know. I know of the case itself as

8 such.

9 JUDGE HUNT: Look, sir, you were asked very simple question: "Did

10 the guards that were on duty in the workshop on that day, did they suffer

11 any consequences because of this escape? Do you know that?" Your answer

12 to that was? "No, I did not know that." That was all you needed to say.

13 We have been going for a very long time, and it's about time we

14 got on to what the real issues are in this case. Please just answer the

15 question and answer it shortly. If there is any further information which

16 is required, you'll be asked about it either by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff or by

17 Mr. Vasic.

18 Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.


20 Q. Sir, you mentioned the commission that you were part of. You

21 actually headed this commission, right? You were head of the commission

22 that made the inventory of the damage, correct?

23 A. I was not head of the commission. I was a member of this

24 commission. Milan Vujovic was head of the commission. But I did work in

25 that commission, yes.

Page 7326

1 Q. You did not only record -- in this commission you did not only

2 record the damage, you also made inventories of all storage places,

3 including the farm, right?

4 A. Yes. We made an inventory of all property in all productive units

5 and in all offices, including the farm. We described everything.

6 Q. And the results of the commission's work were submitted to the

7 warden, right? He got the report, the written report on this?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was this report also submitted to the military command in

10 Velecevo?

11 A. I think it wasn't, nor do I see any need for submitting it to

12 them.

13 Q. You mentioned that soldiers from the Hercegovina Corps visited the

14 KP Dom in 1993, right? You mentioned that yesterday.

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Who were they? Do you know their names and their position?

17 A. I don't, but they were certainly -- those who are involved in

18 logistics, in logistical support, they came to inquire about stocks, about

19 the meat that the Yugoslav People's Army had held with us.

20 Q. They were actually checking the stocks, right?

21 A. Yes, whether they had any stocks.

22 Q. They were inquiring about the whereabouts of a hundred pigs, were

23 they?

24 A. Yes, something like that.

25 Q. What was the -- what was the point about the hundred pigs? Had

Page 7327

1 you just not listed them in your reports or why did they check about the

2 whereabouts of a hundred pigs?

3 A. They were checking whether we had kept those reserves. We took

4 them to the farm and showed them what we had in stock. We had the

5 original pig herd, some piglets. We didn't have any feeding pigs because

6 we didn't have the feed for them. We just maintained the original herd,

7 and we sold the piglets, but we didn't feed big pigs.

8 Q. Sir, why did these soldiers then go to the furniture factory?

9 What did they want to check there? There was nothing to do for them

10 there.

11 A. I didn't go with them to the furniture factory, nor did I know

12 that they went there to the furniture factory. They came to see me in my

13 office. We went to the farm. And I don't know where they went from

14 there.

15 Q. Are you aware that they went with Mr. Krnojelac to the furniture

16 factory? Were you aware of this?

17 A. No. I really don't know where they went and whether they went to

18 the furniture factory with Mr. Krnojelac.

19 Q. Sir, you mentioned that you got food in these barter deals. This

20 food did not go to the KP Dom compound, it was actually most of all for

21 the farm, right? It was for the hens and -- hens and it was fodder,

22 right?

23 A. Yes. In the first place, our priority was to keep a certain

24 number of chickens which would lay eggs and then the eggs would be sold,

25 so to maintain the original pig and cattle herds so that these products

Page 7328

1 could be used by the restaurant.

2 Q. So what you heard --

3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour? I do apologise to my

4 learned friend. Thank you, Your Honour. On page 94, row 18, the complete

5 answer has not been recorded. "To maintain a herd which could lay eggs

6 which could be sold." That was just the end of the answer. He said

7 something else that was not translated before that. I wouldn't like to be

8 suggestive regarding that answer. So could my learned friend put the

9 question to the witness again?

10 JUDGE HUNT: Look, just one moment, please, sir. Mr. Vasic, the

11 answer goes on to read "so to maintain the original pig and cattle herds

12 so that these products could be used by the restaurant." Now, is that the

13 sentence which you say has not been fully recorded?

14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The part of the

15 sentence that has not been recorded is linked to the eggs. Before the

16 witness said, "which would be sold," he also said where those eggs ended

17 up. I can repeat, if you wish me to, but I think it's better for my

18 learned friend to put the question again.

19 JUDGE HUNT: It is better that you do not repeat it. That's what

20 -- I am very fearful that these constant problems that you raise with the

21 transcript are -- even if not intended, are assisting the witness in his

22 answers. Is it an important piece that's been left out?

23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence feels that it

24 is important because it explains where the eggs went to and the different

25 places they went to.

Page 7329

1 JUDGE HUNT: That I assume -- by that I assume that that is

2 important, where they went to. I'm at a loss to know how. But anyway,

3 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you'd better ask the question again.


5 Q. Sir, the eggs -- we were talking about the eggs, and you said the

6 eggs were sold. To whom?

7 A. I said that the eggs from the farm were given to the KP Dom, to

8 the kitchen which prepared food for the convicts and the detainees and the

9 captured people. They were also given to -- sold, rather, to the

10 hospital. They were given to the army. They were sold through our shop.

11 And sometimes they were also sold to other companies. And all of this in

12 the aim of earning funds to buy cattle feed to maintain the original herd

13 of chicken and pigs, egg-laying chicken and pigs.

14 Q. Sir, you mentioned that the staff of the KP Dom, the Serb inmates

15 and the Muslim detainees all ate in the -- ate the same food in the same

16 canteen, and you also said that the food was not poorer than that you got

17 at the Hotel Zelengora. That's what you said. Right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. However, if I understood you correctly, you had only breakfast in

20 the KP Dom and not lunch, not dinner. That was at the Hotel Zelengora,

21 right?

22 A. I'm referring only to the food that I ate, so I apologise. I

23 can't talk about the meals that I did not partake of.

24 Q. Yes. So what did you get for breakfast?

25 A. In the KP Dom for breakfast, sometimes there would be two eggs and

Page 7330

1 tea or one egg and tea. Sometimes there would be a kind of soup with

2 potatoes or rice or pasta inside and tea. And two pieces of bread. That

3 was mostly what we got.

4 Q. You ate in a separate part in the canteen. You did not eat

5 together with the detainees, right?

6 A. We always came for breakfast after they had had breakfast and it

7 was in another room that we ate, not in the room in which these other

8 persons ate. They are the same halls with two different counters.

9 Q. So you did not see what the Muslim detainees actually got for

10 breakfast and not for lunch and not for dinner, right? You never ate with

11 them?

12 A. The food was prepared in the same cauldron so they couldn't pour

13 into my plate one food and something else for him. As far as the cooked

14 meals, they were the same. Whether the piece of bread they got was

15 thinner than mine, I don't know. As for the cooked meal, whether the cook

16 served them a little less than me, that's also something I cannot say.

17 Q. Sir, detainees were exchanged from the KP Dom, right? In the

18 course of the year 1992 and 1993, detainees were exchanged?

19 A. I heard that they were exchanged.

20 Q. Detainees disappeared during exchanges. You're aware of this,

21 right?

22 A. I am not aware of that.

23 Q. Were you present when Muslim detainees were taken away for plum

24 picking?

25 A. How could I be present when my workplace was in the office and

Page 7331













13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and the English Transcripts.












Page 7332

1 they went plum picking in the orchards? I wasn't present.

2 Q. Sir, before a detainee gets to the workplace in the orchard, as

3 you said, he has to be taken there. My question was: Were you present

4 when detainees, a bigger group of detainees, were taken out mid-September,

5 1992, for plum picking? Yes or no.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you hear of the fate of the plum-pickers later on? Did you

8 hear that some of them were found in a mass grave near the front line in

9 Ustikolina?

10 A. I really don't know anything about that, Madam, nor have I heard

11 anything about it.

12 Q. During the war, reserve officers were used for higher positions --

13 elderly reserve officers were used for higher positions in the rear and

14 not on the front line, right?

15 A. As far as I'm concerned, as a reserve officer, I didn't have any

16 such positions. I only acted as a soldier. However, what others did, I

17 don't know.

18 Q. Do you know Mr. Veselin Cancar, don't you?

19 A. I do know him.

20 Q. He was an economist before the war, right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. He was also an officer in the TO, wasn't he?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He was stationed at the Livade storage facility when Muslims were

25 detained there, correct?

Page 7333

1 A. Yes, and I saw him there.

2 Q. And you were aware that Muslims were detained in Livade for a

3 brief period of time, right?

4 A. I think that these were not people who were detained at that time,

5 that is the period from the 8th of April, when I left, until the 14th of

6 April. In that period, battles were very fierce, and people were fleeing

7 town left and right, and there was a group of refugees there at Livade,

8 and I saw that when I was on guard duty there at Livade.

9 Q. The Muslim detainees were detained there from the 14th to the 18th

10 when they were transferred to the KP Dom. You're aware of this fact,

11 right?

12 A. No. I learned that fact later, when I returned to the KP Dom. I

13 was told that there were some detainees who had been at Livade. That is

14 when I learnt that from Livade some detainees had been transported by the

15 army to the KP Dom in Foca.

16 Q. Mr. Veselin Cancar was accused of having been the camp commander

17 of the camp Livade, right? He was on trial because of this.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You actually testified in the case in Sarajevo. You testified in

20 the Veselin Cancar case, right?

21 A. I did, I did.

22 Q. And in your testimony in Sarajevo, you said that Mr. Cancar was

23 not the camp commander, he was only the manager of material goods and

24 stocks, right?

25 A. Yes, and I still claim that, because I was on guard next to his

Page 7334

1 storeroom where the reserves were kept by him when I spent the day at

2 Livade.

3 Q. And Mr. Cancar got sentenced -- convicted and sentenced 11 years'

4 imprisonment, right? You're aware of this?

5 A. Yes, I am aware of it.

6 Q. Mr. Cancar was actually asked to take the position of the warden

7 of the KP Dom before Mr. Krnojelac was asked the same, right? You're

8 aware of this?

9 A. I really don't know that. I really don't know that.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, you're going to be some time, I

11 assume, will you?

12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No. I would be finished in one minute.

13 JUDGE HUNT: All right. You proceed, then.


15 Q. Sir, Mr. Cancar then became the quartermaster in the Foca Brigade,

16 right?

17 A. Mr. Cancar was in charge of the storehouse for material reserves

18 in Livade and I testified to that effect at the trial of Mr. Cancar in

19 Sarajevo because I saw that with my own eyes when I was on guard duty at

20 Livade next to the storehouse. What he did later on at the front, I don't

21 know.

22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, these were the questions.

23 JUDGE HUNT: Is there any re-examination, Mr. Vasic?

24 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, may I suggest you deal with it tomorrow

Page 7335

1 morning? There are a few things that I think we have to raise at this

2 time before they get overlooked.

3 Counsel on both sides will receive a letter today from the legal

4 officer of the Chambers, asking them to deal in their final submissions

5 with a number of issues relating to slavery and forced labour, which was

6 the subject of Counts 16 to 18.

7 I'm not sure how much of those counts have been established, but

8 there obviously have been some facts established. It may be that the

9 Prosecution will think so few have been established that they don't want

10 to proceed with those counts, but nevertheless, if they do, we have to

11 deal with them in the judgement, and there are some problems that we are

12 having in our research in relation to the law concerning -- the

13 international law concerning those issues. They have not, so far as we

14 know, been the subject of any considered decision by which we are bound.

15 So when you get that letter, please remember that that is a matter

16 upon which we would like submissions to be made in your final addresses

17 upon which, as I have already assumed, you are busily working at this very

18 moment.

19 Now, the other matter I want to raise, I'm sorry to come back to

20 it, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, but it's the question about these plum-pickers and

21 these people who went out on exchange.

22 You told us that you were relying upon what had been said about

23 this in your pre-trial brief and that you were restricting it to Count 1,

24 the charge of persecution. Now, I've gone to your pre-trial brief, and

25 there's a problem which I think can be cured, but nevertheless, it is a

Page 7336

1 problem.

2 At paragraph 341, in itself a rather dismal comment, the

3 Prosecution says: "In the present case, the Prosecution has charged the

4 accused Krnojelac with five categories of persecutory acts," and they're

5 set out, lettered (a) to (f), and the footnote which you give is

6 indictment paragraph 5.2, and then you told us they were relying on the

7 fifth of those, that lettered (f), being deportation or expulsion. The

8 problem is, however, the indictment does not include paragraph (f).

9 There was a reference in the previous indictment - it was then

10 just plain paragraph 5.2 - asserting as part of the "Persecution":

11 "Milorad Krnojelac assisted in the deportation or expulsion of the

12 majority of Muslim and non-Serb males from the Foca municipality," but

13 that's clearly not this.

14 That has been repeated in the current paragraph 5.2, at the very

15 end of it. But you have only set out the four lettered paragraphs that

16 you refer to in your previous trial brief. The fifth, the one upon which

17 you rely for the plum-pickers and the exchange prisoners, is not there.

18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we just don't have the

19 indictment here.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I'm just going to draw it to your attention. Perhaps

21 we could deal with it in the morning or some convenient time, but if there

22 has to be an amendment to the indictment, it would only be to reflect what

23 the issues are that have been fought, but it's not in the indictment at

24 the moment, for whatever reason I don't know, but it should be dealt with,

25 and dealt with at least before Mr. Krnojelac has to give evidence.

Page 7337

1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we now have here the indictment,

2 and actually, it's not listed as letter (f), but the paragraph is actually

3 in the text belonging to 5.10, and it's actually the last paragraph.

4 JUDGE HUNT: 5.10, or 5.2?


6 JUDGE HUNT: No. That --

7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- on page 5, the last paragraph.

8 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. That was in your original indictment or

9 at least the previous indictment, and that refers to the majority of

10 Muslims and Croats living in the Foca area. That's not the one here at

11 all. These are the prisoners within the KP Dom. I had drawn your

12 attention to that precisely, I had hoped, so that you would not come back

13 with that answer.

14 So you'd better have a look at it. If necessary, we'll hear what

15 you want to say about an amendment and what the Defence wants to say.

16 It's necessary, because so much time has been spent upon this issue to

17 have it very clearly stated somewhere in the indictment, and it certainly

18 is not at the moment.

19 All right, then. We'll adjourn. And tomorrow we are in a court

20 downstairs, number I Court again. Hopefully they've fixed all the

21 technical equipment.

22 We'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.03 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day

25 of June, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.