Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7764

1 Wednesday, 27 June 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE HUNT: Call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number:

7 IT-97-25-T, the Prosecutor versus Krnojelac.

8 JUDGE HUNT: We have the Prosecution's second motion to file a

9 third amended indictment. Have you had a chance to have a look at that,

10 Mr. Bakrac? It seems to comply with everything we have discussed but I'm

11 happy to have you have a look at it if you want to.

12 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, I believe you are

13 right. These are all the things that we have discussed and we have no

14 objections.

15 JUDGE HUNT: Very well, then. We grant leave to the Prosecution

16 to file the third amended indictment.

17 Now, there was some discussion about whether we needed to have

18 Mr. Krnojelac plead to it again. There are no new charges. There is one

19 new item of evidence. What is your attitude, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, we have already written it that

21 we think it's safer to have him plead to this because there is one item

22 added, although the count is the same, but it's now expanded; therefore,

23 we thought it's safer to have him plea. Just in general as you had

24 suggested in your --

25 JUDGE HUNT: I will ask Mr. Krnojelac whether he adheres to his

Page 7765

1 pleas of not guilty.

2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE HUNT: Are you happy to have that happen in that way,

4 Mr. Bakrac?

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, quite, Your Honours, although I

6 thought that your comment referred to the indictment, rather, the part of

7 the indictment in the previous motion, and that it was different now. But

8 the Defence does not object to the accused pleading on the basis of the

9 new indictment.

10 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Krnojelac, this is a very formal matter, but it

11 is necessary because we have a fresh indictment. I am going to ask you

12 whether you still plead not guilty to all of the charges. You'll have to

13 stand up in order to answer that for some strange reason.

14 Mr. Krnojelac, there is now a third amended indictment. The

15 charges are the same, but there is some additional factual matter which

16 you've heard discussed. Do you still plead not guilty to all the charges

17 in this indictment?

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I plead not guilty on

19 any count of the indictment. For me, this is already the fifth

20 indictment.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Krnojelac. You sit

22 down.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Ms. Kuo.

25 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7766


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Kuo: [Continued].

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac?

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. As of the 17th or 18th of April, 1992, the fighting in Foca had

7 already stopped and the Serb forces had taken over; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So the military call-up that you refer to on the 18th of April,

10 1992, was really an organisation in an effort to secure the Serb victory;

11 right?

12 A. I do not consider it a Serb victory. I merely see it as the end

13 of gunfire and armed struggle.

14 Q. I understand that. But the result of the armed struggle and the

15 gunfire was that the Muslim forces had lost and the Serb forces had won;

16 right?

17 A. I would not agree that the Muslim forces had lost. The Muslim

18 forces had withdrawn towards Gorazde, part of them, and some of the people

19 had remained in the town of Foca.

20 Q. The foreign journalist was in Foca reporting the fall of Foca;

21 right?

22 A. The foreign journalist could have reported on whatever he wanted

23 to. That is his right in terms of the freedom of the media. But Foca is

24 still in the same place where it's always been, between the two rivers,

25 the Cehotina and the Drina.

Page 7767

1 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, the people or the authorities who called you up or

2 called up -- did the military call-up on the 18th of April were the Serb

3 authorities; right?

4 A. Most probably. I did not see them, but most probably these were

5 people who were in charge of mobilisation, either for work obligation or

6 for further military duty. And that pertains to the Ministry of Defence

7 that is in charge of that.

8 Q. This wasn't a mixed call-up; in other words, it wasn't the

9 government that was previously in place in Foca, that is, a mix of Muslim

10 and Serb. This was a purely Serb authority who called you up; right?

11 A. But please, in the call-up, it didn't say that only Serbs were

12 supposed to report. It was a call issued to the entire population to

13 report for mobilisation and for work obligation.

14 Q. You told us that the call-up was via sound trucks that drove

15 through various neighbourhoods; is that right?

16 A. My children told me that they saw a vehicle with a loud speaker

17 calling to people who were not assigned anywhere to report to mobilisation

18 places that's what the children told me. The children had seen this

19 mobilisation vehicle and it is because of that that I came to fulfil my

20 duty.

21 Q. You told us yesterday that these vehicles were audible in the

22 neighbourhood of Cerezluk but not in Donje Polje; right? That's why you

23 didn't hear it; you were in the Donje Polje area.

24 A. Please, at that time on the 18th, I was in Cerezluk, and the

25 vehicle was moving about town, about which part of town I can't say

Page 7768

1 because I didn't see it.

2 Q. The call-up was a military call-up, wasn't it?

3 A. The children told me that all of those who have not been assigned

4 somewhere until now are being called to the high school centre,

5 irrespective of whether it would be military duty or work obligation.

6 Q. The authority that organised the call-up was a military authority,

7 wasn't it?

8 A. As far as I know from before, at any rate, mobilisation was

9 carried out by the Ministry of Defence, and that belongs to the army, the

10 military. That's why it's called the Ministry of National Defence.

11 Q. When you arrived at the high school, you could see that the high

12 school was taken over by soldiers; right?

13 A. When I came to the high school, I saw at two or three places a few

14 men standing there. At that moment they were civilians just like I was.

15 Q. You were given your assignment, you said, by Radojica Mladjenovic

16 and you identified him as the Chairman of the Executive Committee of the

17 Assembly of Serbian people in Foca, is that the formal title?

18 A. I got orders, and his official title was "President of the

19 Executive Committee of the Municipal Assembly of Foca."

20 Q. Mr. Mladjenovic was also -- we discussed how he was a member of

21 the Crisis Staff, but you told us you didn't know that at the time; right?

22 A. That's right. I didn't know.

23 Q. But you know that the Crisis Staff was formed to coordinate the

24 functions of the government during this imminent threat of war, the state

25 of imminent threat of war; right?

Page 7769

1 A. Please, when we were talking about those negotiations, believe it

2 or not, at that time two men were mentioned. Not any body. Negotiations

3 were mentioned, precisely between Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic and Mr. Taib

4 Lojo.

5 Q. The negotiations were something that was happening before the Serb

6 forces ultimately took over Foca. That's not what we're talking about.

7 I'm asking you about the Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff came into being

8 in order to coordinate the government functions in Foca because there was

9 an imminent threat of war declared on the 15th of April; right?

10 A. When there was that pause between the 9th, 10th, something, then

11 only those two were mentioned. When the Crisis Staff was established on

12 one side or the other side or some third side, believe me, I don't know.

13 It is only later that people heard about these Crisis Staffs.

14 Q. When did you first hear about the Crisis Staff?

15 A. Well, I heard of the Crisis Staff perhaps a day or two before I

16 went to the high school. It's the first time that I heard that it

17 existed.

18 Q. What did you hear that the Crisis Staff's function was?

19 A. Only that there was a Crisis Staff that existed. I didn't hear

20 about anyone, about their function, because I didn't really contact anyone

21 in that situation so that I would get more information about this. And

22 nothing was said about their function over the loudspeaker, no.

23 Q. Isn't it true that the Crisis Staff was formed to take over the

24 functions of the municipal assembly during a state of war or an imminent

25 threat of war? That's why it was a Crisis Staff; right?

Page 7770

1 A. You can interpret this any way you want, but I just know what I

2 know. And I cannot tell you anything about what I don't know, and I don't

3 know about this other matter.

4 Q. You told us yesterday that you were -- you learned only later that

5 Mr. Mladjenovic was a member of the Crisis Staff, and I'd like to show you

6 the Defence Exhibit 73, D73, which has a list of the Crisis Staff

7 members, and I'd just like to go through it with you and you can tell us,

8 if you know the individual listed. And the question is not whether you

9 knew the person was on the Crisis Staff, but whether you knew that person

10 in any capacity at all.

11 The first name is Miroslav Stanic. Can you tell us if you knew

12 who he was?

13 A. The president of the SDS.

14 Q. And he was also the First War Commander of the Foca Tactical

15 Brigade; isn't that right?

16 A. Believe me, I don't know about that.

17 Q. Josif Milicic?

18 A. I know that later he was president of the Municipal Assembly of

19 Foca for a while.

20 Q. He was the mayor of Foca; right?

21 A. Yes, according to this new way of putting it. It used to be

22 called the president.

23 Q. You've discussed Mr. Mladjenovic already. Professor Vojislav

24 Maksimovic, who was he?

25 A. All I know about this man is that he was a Professor at the

Page 7771

1 university in Sarajevo, and during the previous elections in the times of

2 the one-party system, I remember his name because I remember he was

3 proposed to be a MP. But as far as I can remember, he did not make it.

4 It was Mr. Cemo Osman who was elected because the two -- the two of them

5 were on the list, and I think, I think the other man won, but I'm not

6 sure.

7 Q. This is the same Mr. Maksimovic whom we discussed yesterday that

8 you knew somewhat and you were seen with sometimes; right? Because he was

9 born near Foca.

10 A. Please, I just knew him by sight. I did not see him in Foca. I

11 saw him only later when I went to work at the school.

12 Q. Your good friend Zarko Vukovic testified, and you heard him say

13 that you were sometimes in Mr. Maksimovic's company. Are you saying

14 that's not true?

15 A. It is certain that no one ever saw me in the company of Mr. Vojo

16 Maksimovic and that is correct.

17 Q. Petko Cancar, who was he?

18 A. Petko Cancar, I know that before he was secretary of the Perucica

19 company. He's a lawyer. Later when delegates were elected for

20 the assembly in Sarajevo, he was an MP or something in that assembly.

21 Which position he exactly held, I don't know, but at any rate he was

22 there. And later for a while he was president of the municipal assembly.

23 When Mr. Josip Milicic no longer held that position. Then there was a

24 break, and then he became president of the Municipal Assembly of Foca.

25 Q. Number six, Vojislav Bodiroga?

Page 7772

1 A. I know he's an engineer, and that for a while he was a manager at

2 the electricity board.

3 Q. Predrag Lakovic?

4 A. The only thing I know was that he worked at the municipal

5 assembly. Which position he exactly held, I don't know.

6 Q. Milojica Miletic?

7 A. Milojica Miletic worked at the Ministry of Defence. I don't know

8 what he was exactly called. Was he director of a department in the

9 Ministry of Defence or something like that?

10 Q. Was he the secretary for national defence?

11 A. I don't know. I don't know whether he was secretary or director

12 of a department or something, I really don't know his exact position. At

13 any rate, he was there.

14 Q. Mr. Vukadin Perisic?

15 A. I know one Perisic who worked at the municipality. Whether his

16 first name was Vukadin, I couldn't be sure of that. He was an engineer.

17 I don't know whether his first name was Vukadin.

18 Q. And the Perisic that you're thinking of, was he the director of

19 surveying and legal property?

20 A. Before the war, no, but afterwards, I think he was in charge of

21 surveying. I don't know whether he was called the director or whatever,

22 but he was the person, the man I'm thinking of, in charge of surveying.

23 Q. Gojko Davidovic?

24 A. I can't remember who this man is.

25 Q. Cedo Zelovic?

Page 7773

1 A. A gym teacher. Later he studied something at the university. I

2 don't know whether it was national defence or something like that, but I

3 know him.

4 Q. Mitar Sipcic?

5 A. That's the man that we talked about yesterday. He's a medical man

6 from the SIP Maglic enterprise. He worked at the lab at Brod before the

7 war.

8 Q. He's the man that you referred to yesterday as accompanying the

9 baker to come ask permission to use the bakery; right?

10 A. Yes, yes, yes.

11 Q. Mr. Radovan Mandic?

12 A. I barely know him. I just know he was a doctor. I think he was a

13 doctor at the chest ward at the hospital.

14 Q. Dragan Dragovic?

15 A. He was at the SUP, the police station.

16 Q. He was the commander there; right?

17 A. Believe me, people were saying that he was some kind of commander

18 there, but I don't think he was commander before the war. I think he was

19 some kind of deputy or something. He's a youngish man. I know him,

20 therefore, basically by sight, not that I would know all the positions he

21 held or something like that.

22 Q. One of your sons worked at the police department, and so you would

23 know that Mr. Gagovic became chief of police during the war; right?

24 A. My son was on the reserve force, and believe me, during the war, a

25 man would see his own children very seldom, so you wouldn't really discuss

Page 7774

1 all of this. But he was at the police station. Whether he was the man in

2 charge or whether it was someone else, I don't know, but he was in the top

3 echelons because he was deputy before the war conflict broke out, so it

4 would be logical that he would become commander during the war.

5 Q. And finally, Slavko Todovic?

6 A. I don't know whether that's the one, but I know that there was a

7 Slavko Todovic who was a teacher at the Godijeno primary school before

8 the war broke out.

9 Q. And that, just to be absolutely clear, is not the same person as

10 Savo Todovic who worked at the KP Dom; right?

11 A. No, no. They are probably related, but it's not the same person,

12 no.

13 Q. Thank you. We don't need this list any more.

14 A. You're welcome.

15 Q. Having gone through this list, you recognise that most of these

16 people were fairly high ranking in the party and in the politics; right?

17 They had functions such as being in charge of different departments or

18 coordinating different functions.

19 A. I knew them, and I said what I said, and that's true.

20 Q. According to the Defence Exhibit D25, the Crisis Staff was created

21 to coordinate all government functions in order to defend the territory,

22 protect the population, and property. Do you disagree with that?

23 A. Maybe that's why it was established, but believe me, I did not

24 know why it was formed or when it was formed because teachers in most

25 cases, especially math teachers, are not that curious to know about all of

Page 7775

1 these different competences and why what was established, et cetera.

2 Q. According to Defence Exhibit D25, paragraph 8, one of the

3 functions of the Crisis Staff was also to create all the necessary

4 conditions for life and work of the JNA, that is, of the army. Were you

5 aware of that?

6 A. No.

7 Q. It makes sense to you, doesn't it, Mr. Krnojelac, that during a

8 wartime, efforts have to be coordinated at all levels of government in

9 order for the war effort to succeed; right? And more specifically, that

10 there needs to be cooperation between the military and civilian parts of

11 society.

12 A. Coordination is needed every where, but please, do understand me,

13 the Ministry of Justice was what I had to deal with. The other

14 enterprises probably had to coordinate as well, but in all cases,

15 including this armed conflicted, this coordination must have been

16 different than that that had to do with other institutions and

17 enterprises. That is to say, belonging to the Ministry of Justice.

18 Q. I understand that you have shown us a document showing that you

19 were appointed by the Ministry of Justice on July 17th of 1992, but isn't

20 it true that you were actually appointed by the Crisis Staff on April 18th

21 of 1992?

22 A. I saw on this list now that Mr. Mladjenovic was a member of the

23 Crisis Staff, but he appointed me as president of the executive committee,

24 and at that moment I only knew that he held the position of the president

25 of the executive committee of the municipal assembly of Foca. I swear to

Page 7776

1 you that I did not know. I swear to you now. I give you my word, if you

2 want to take my word for it. I have no other way of proving to you that I

3 did not know the composition of the Crisis Staff.

4 Q. According to a document that was proposed by your Defence counsel,

5 ID D75 which was a certificate from the Ministry of Defence, you were

6 appointed by the Crisis Staff. Do you dispute that? The question isn't

7 whether you knew at that time, but now, do you dispute that you were in

8 fact appointed to the Crisis Staff in April of 1992 as the warden?

9 A. I am just saying that Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic appointed me by way

10 of an order, and the signature was that of Radojica Mladjenovic, not of

11 the Crisis Staff.

12 Q. Again, Mr. Krnojelac, I must emphasise that there's a difference

13 between what you knew then and what -- the question that I'm asking you

14 now. You've had access to various documents now through the preparation

15 of your Defence, including one that was given by your Defence counsel and

16 proposed here in court, and it states there, according to the Ministry of

17 Defence, that you were in fact appointed by the Crisis Staff and my

18 question to you is whether you dispute that, not whether you knew it in

19 1992, but whether today you dispute the fact that you were appointed by

20 the Crisis Staff?

21 A. I say today as well that I was appointed by the President of the

22 Executive Committee, Radojica Mladjenovic, as temporary warden, and later

23 the ministry appointed me warden.

24 Q. I'll make reference to another Defence exhibit, and that is D79,

25 and this is a letter from the 3rd of June, 1994, from the Minister of

Page 7777

1 Justice to the Srbinje Municipal Assembly and there it says you were

2 appointed warden at the proposal of the Foca Wartime Council. Can you

3 tell us what the Wartime Council was, if not the Crisis Staff?

4 A. I don't know why you don't want to accept that I'm telling the

5 truth and that I do not know anything else. What office -- who held what

6 office and what it was called. I'm just telling you how it came about,

7 and I cannot accept any other solution except what I experienced and saw

8 with my own eyes in front of me. So, maybe they said it later on. Maybe

9 it had all been -- it all changed meanwhile. I'm just telling you how it

10 was. Please try to understand. That is how it was. What they came to

11 call it later, they could call it whatever they liked, but I had no part

12 in that, nor do I know it.

13 This, however, is the truth, and that is that the president of the

14 executive board, both issued the order, signed the order, and as such, I

15 saw it before me just as you see me today and as I see you. And further

16 correspondence and changes of names, I'm not aware of them because I did

17 not get a document at a later stage. I received a decision -- a

18 disposition on the appointment issued by the ministry.

19 Q. During the time that you were warden at KP Dom, you were aware

20 that the Crisis Staff had control over the KP Dom; right?

21 A. How could I know it? I've told you that on the first day when I

22 got there, I thought that I'd been put in prison, too, and only when I

23 came there and saw those people I didn't know that I had been accommodated

24 there because at first I thought those were convicted persons who had been

25 caught by the wartime events. But later on I was told that those persons,

Page 7778













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7779

1 that they were Muslims, and they told me what had happened to the

2 convicted persons outside from those convicts who are still in a part of

3 the KP Dom, and some of them, some of them later on were transferred --

4 later on some of them were transferred to the Brioni farm, only some

5 remained where they were. And there is no reason not to tell you the

6 truth and nothing but the truth.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you were told by various people that the Crisis

8 Staff would be able to assist the Muslim detainees in being released;

9 right?

10 A. The only thing I heard from Mr. Avdo Sadinlija was that he

11 mentioned the Crisis Staff when he referred to the conversation with Mr.

12 Avdic, and that was the first time, believe me, that I heard about it.

13 How did he know about it, I do not know. But he knew the number of that

14 Crisis Staff and all. Whether he had known it whilst he still worked in

15 the health centre and when was it set up or what, or did he learn that

16 when he worked at Livade, I don't know, but I held him in high esteem as a

17 good dentist and as a doctor and as a good man and I trusted him, so I

18 heard it from him. Because when I left the house when the operation

19 started, I didn't go anywhere. My departure to Cerezluk was also reduced

20 to a very narrow circle of people, whether they knew about it or not, but

21 they didn't talk about it. They mostly talked about what was going on,

22 whether it would stop or go on because people, people was not for the war

23 or what happened. That is how I see it. There were quite a number of

24 people who were like me, that is, adversaries of all of that.

25 Q. Dr. Avdo Sadinlija was detained at the KP Dom at the

Page 7780

1 time you had this conversation with him; right?

2 A. He told me then that he had been to Livade before that, and that

3 after that he came to the KP Dom. So I allowed him to use the telephone;

4 he used it, and he talked with Mr. Avdic. I've already told you that.

5 Q. And Dr. Sadinlija also gave you the number of the Crisis Staff so

6 that you could contact them on his behalf; right?

7 A. Believe me, when he began to give me some figures, I told him,

8 "Sorry, since you know the number, then you dial it yourself." And I

9 gave him the -- I gave him the telephone. He dialed personally,

10 Mr. Avdic, I didn't do it for him. There was no reason for it. There

11 was -- and the best thing would be if he came here and said it all because

12 he's an honest man and he would also speak the truth, just as I am doing.

13 Q. But you -- he did give you the number; right? I understand he

14 made the phone call that day himself, but he left that number with you so

15 that you could contact the Crisis Staff yourself, didn't he?

16 A. Oh, come, there was no need for it. He knew it himself. When I

17 said that I was not responsible for them, then why should he give me the

18 number? Because that number or the number is not this object or other

19 objects to give. One needed a piece of paper and a pen to write it down.

20 I didn't have either a piece of paper or pen to do that, so he merely

21 dictated that telephone to Mr. Avdic and presumably Avdic wrote that

22 number down and did something because a few days later Mr. Sadinlija left

23 the KP Dom and left the KP Dom and I was happy to see him leave.

24 Q. You had --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Kuo.

Page 7781

1 MS. KUO:

2 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you had the telephone number for the Crisis Staff

3 during the time you were the warden, didn't you?

4 A. I cannot understand your persistence, even though everything is

5 perfectly clear and above board. I'm telling you that I didn't have the

6 number of the Crisis Staff or the military command because I never needed

7 them.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the 13th of July, 2000, you gave a statement of

9 the investigators of the office of the Prosecution, and you told them that

10 Avdo Sadinlija gave you the phone number of the Crisis Staff. Are you

11 saying that's not true?

12 A. I've just told you, and personally I think that I could not say

13 that he had given it to me. He had begun giving me the telephone number,

14 and at that moment I turned the receiver over to him so that he could give

15 Mr. Avdic that number. And if I said that, I'd like to see the

16 transcript.

17 Q. Very well. With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

18 witness shown the copy of the transcript. We'll get the exhibit number

19 for the record, but at the moment this is page 6 in the B/C/S from the

20 third day of interviews, and it's page 7 in the English.

21 JUDGE HUNT: What date is it? Could you tell us?

22 MS. KUO: The 13th of July, 2000. It's P48 and P48A.

23 The witness can just be shown the B/C/S version and I'll follow

24 along in the English.

25 Q. Do you see the highlighted sentence? Mr. Krnojelac, why don't you

Page 7782

1 read that out to us, just that one sentence.

2 A. You know what? I can read the sentence, but since we are talking

3 about this, I have to read it, really. It is true what I'm saying now,

4 but I think that on the second sheet you request find it or perhaps even

5 here in this part that you can find it somewhere that he dictated the

6 number to Mr. Avdic. But it could have been with speed and all that I

7 said what I'm saying. But it seems to me that it was Mr. Avdic Sadinlija

8 who dictated the number to me -- no, but this is an excerpt of a sentence,

9 a part of a sentence, but not the full meaning of the sentence so that I

10 couldn't really agree. Excuse me, to take it out of this, I think one

11 should read the whole meaning of this, and I believe that you'd find

12 somewhere what I said, that Mr. Avdo Sadinlija had dictated the number to

13 Mr. Avdic.

14 But it would take time to read this all and find, not only take a

15 context out because -- excuse me, I wouldn't really like this Honourable

16 Court or anybody else think that I'm lying or something now. And after

17 all this time, of course I can allow and I suppose you can understand,

18 that one forgets things, a lot of things, but one shouldn't take it as a

19 lie. One should simply understand that a lot of time has past and that

20 this has its effects.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let's do it this way for the sake of moving the

22 testimony along: I'll read the sentence into the record so everybody

23 knows the sentence we're talking about, and I will leave it to your

24 counsel to find elsewhere in this transcript the explanation that you've

25 proposed. So the sentence is on page 7 in the English version at lines 14

Page 7783













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Page 7784

1 and 15: "And so far as I can remember, it was precisely Mr. Avdo

2 Sadinlija gave me that phone number." So that's what we're referring to,

3 and you can get it cleared up on redirect examination through your counsel

4 if you wish?

5 A. But if I may, Avdo gave that number without me knowing it.

6 Q. All right.

7 A. But he first talked with Mr. Sadinlija and then Sadinlija gave

8 that same telephone, and then I said "Mr. Avdic, trust me when I say that

9 I cannot help Mr. Sadinlija."

10 Q. Thank you. We don't need this transcript any more. I'll move on

11 to the interview that you gave on the 6th of June, 2000, and that would be

12 Exhibit P47, P47A.

13 Isn't it true that you gave the Crisis Staff phone number to

14 Milisa Dakic when he came to visit RJ along with Zarko Vukovic

15 A. When Mr. Dakic came with Vukovic, I didn't give him the number of

16 the Crisis Staff, nor did I have it. And that is what I'm saying.

17 Q. According to the transcript of your interview of that day, you

18 stated, this is on page 36 in the English version, lines 1 through 3, "I

19 gave him the phone number of the Crisis Staff so that he could talk to the

20 people in the Crisis Staff to release him, and after some time he was

21 released." That's referring to RJ. Didn't you say that?

22 A. I do not recall putting it that way because Mr. Dakic must have

23 known better how he could help the gentleman that we're talking about.

24 Then I, I said that I could not help him, but I do not remember giving him

25 a telephone number or anything. I simply do not recollect that I had the

Page 7785

1 number of the Crisis Staff noted down anywhere.

2 Q. Isn't it true that you had contact with one of the members of the

3 Crisis Staff, Dr. Radovan Mandic, and that you went to speak to him, or at

4 least you told RJ that you went to speak to Dr. Mandic to see if he would

5 get released?

6 A. No, that is not the truth. I did not go, I did not communicate,

7 nor did I know Mr. Mandic all that well to discuss such matters with him.

8 I knew he was a physician, and that's it. So I'm really surprised that

9 such a physician was on the Crisis Staff, a member of the Crisis Staff. I

10 didn't even know that, let alone talk with him about it.

11 Q. Mr. Vukovic, the assignment that you received in April of 1992 was

12 a military work duty?

13 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that you meant to say that.

14 MS. KUO: I'm sorry, Mr. Krnojelac. I was thinking of Zarko

15 Vukovic. Mr. Krnojelac, the assignment that you received in April of 1992

16 was a military one; right?

17 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

18 Q. The assignment that you received in April 1992 was a military work

19 assignment, so that if you disobeyed it, you were subjected to military

20 discipline; right?

21 A. I'd really have to take a piece of paper and pen to jot down how

22 many times I've answered the same thing. I told you that I was given that

23 order by the president of the executive board of the assembly of the

24 municipality of Foca, Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic, and you evidently want to

25 take me back to something that is not possible. And if you go on like

Page 7786

1 this, you can obviously send me wherever you like.

2 Q. Your friend Zarko Vukovic was in the same position as you during

3 the war, in the sense that he was also subjected to compulsory work

4 assignment; right?

5 A. Mr. Zarko Vukovic at that time had his company Uport, and he

6 told me, and he told me that earlier, that he had been tasked by the

7 president of the executive board of the assembly of the municipality,

8 Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic.

9 Q. And also later, September of 1992 when Mr. Vukovic was assigned to

10 teach, he was still under a work order; right? He didn't attain a

11 military status that he didn't have earlier, did he?

12 A. Will you please hear what I have to say? The difference between

13 the labour duty and military duties were very small. On the one hand, you

14 have work, you have labour; and on the other, you have the army. So

15 again, his labour duty was the teacher of mathematics because presumably

16 at that time one of the math teachers, a younger one, perhaps had gone to

17 serve his military duty, that is, to the front line. Just as he himself

18 was then taken to the front line, and many others. And even I in 1995, I

19 was 55, and yet was sent to the front line. But it was after I had gone

20 back to teaching after -- when he stopped being under the ministry, and

21 would you believe after a year of waiting, nobody took me to the front

22 line. And no sooner did I become the principal of the school in 1995 that

23 the wretched miserable servant of the school, then they sent me to guard

24 the rear. But it's, it's wartime.

25 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher I'd like to have the

Page 7787

1 witness shown Exhibit D112 and ask that the English translation D112A be

2 put on the ELMO.

3 Q. This is a decision assigning Zarko Vukovic to work obligation, and

4 I bring your attention to number one where it states, "Military conscript,

5 person subject to work obligation." You see that; right?

6 A. I do.

7 Q. And the -- at the bottom of the decision page where there's a list

8 of people who are to receive copies of the decision, there is listed the

9 Ministry of Defence, Foca section, at number 3; right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. We don't need this --

12 A. Because the Ministry of Defence had to be notified about the

13 assignment of that person, that is, that he had been assigned to a school,

14 and in case they needed him, they would look for him there and send him to

15 another -- send him on to another task, a military one or something. That

16 was what, September 1992. Because even for me who went through it all

17 because I have to understand it all and grasp it all, but that was

18 obviously the system and the method because why before the war broke out,

19 why were there mobilisation assignments unless it was necessary to know

20 that if a natural or some other disaster struck, to know where you would

21 be assigned and what would be the duties of any one man, especially when

22 it comes to children. Even though -- and there are states fortunately who

23 called major attention to the out bringing of their generations and a

24 state that does not pay much attention to that will not fair well so that

25 one must pay attention to protecting young generations, educating them,

Page 7788













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7789

1 bringing them up, and all that. I don't really have to tell you all this,

2 drugs and all sort of scourges and diseases and you see what is going on

3 today.

4 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, we really need to focus.

5 You were a reserve Captain 1st Class and that was something that

6 was acknowledged by the Ministry of Defence; right? You don't dispute

7 that.

8 A. I do not dispute that I was a Captain 1st Class, but now I'm

9 just a plain prisoner in The Hague here. But I had no ranks since 1992,

10 that is, since 1984, because had I been a member of a party, had I been in

11 the army ranks, I would have probably -- well, probably, I'm not sure, but

12 perhaps all this wouldn't have happened. But I was deprived of all these

13 ranks and everything else because it was the reserve force, and their role

14 was not the same as the regular army's. Please understand, this is a

15 reserve force and that rank is not all that important. It's important

16 when you hold a position, that is, while you are active there somewhere;

17 but after that, it doesn't really mean anything.

18 Q. In order to achieve the position, the rank of Captain 1st Class

19 in the reserve force, you first had to go through different levels of

20 military training in the reserve force; right? It's not something that --

21 it's not a rank you achieve immediately when you're called up for your

22 compulsory military service; right?

23 A. Since ninety -- I became a soldier in 1963. In 1964 I'd already

24 left as a sergeant. So from 1963 until 1982 when I became Captain 1st

25 Class, it means only three steps of promotion. Because after I completed

Page 7790

1 my military service, two months later you are promoted to 2nd Lieutenant,

2 then you -- after that all that remains is to be promoted to Lieutenant,

3 to Captain, and Captain 1st Class. Three ranks, four years each, so that I

4 should have been -- I should have become Captain 1st Class much earlier,

5 and I was promoted some 20 years later.

6 And if I may add something, if you allow me to do it. When that

7 exercise would take place, some officers would then pass examinations to

8 be promoted, but they belonged to the regular army. To be promoted, they

9 also have to give a high rank to whoever conducted that exercise in order

10 to show how successful that exercise had been and so as to justify his

11 aspiration to promotion.

12 Q. Just so we're clear about the meaning of a reserve force, the

13 reserve force simply means that in case of war, there is a group of

14 people who have been militarily trained, who have achieved

15 certain ranks, who are ready to go to fight if necessary; right? That's

16 what it means to be in the reserve force.

17 A. The reserve force of the Territorial Defence not only was being

18 prepared for armed struggle but also for all the other natural disasters,

19 when they could be called upon in case of an earthquake or flood or

20 whatever to help out. But I'm emphasising this to make you understand

21 that all national defence, the purpose was the all national defence, not

22 of this evil, this misfortune which befell us and which is again befalling

23 Macedonia. And who knows, tomorrow it will be Montenegro and so on and so

24 forth.

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, in April 18th of 1992 when there was a mobilisation

Page 7791

1 call, it was for all men up to age 55; right?

2 A. That is how it should be by statute. Whether that is how it was

3 done or not, I don't know. But according to national defence law, that is

4 how it should be because even calling soldiers for exercises, if they

5 failed to report, they would be turned over to the misdemeanor authority

6 or else would have to have some good excuse, either from a physician or

7 from his company or something. But at that time, laws were obeyed. I

8 wish laws were obeyed as well today.

9 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, that meant that men up to the age of 55 faced the

10 possibility of being sent to the front line to fight; right? That's all

11 it meant.

12 A. That they would be sent to the front line to fight, or that they

13 would be sent to carry out a labour duty because now from this -- from the

14 time of peace, one had to move over to the armed conflict. Well, it

15 depended on what was necessary. Not everybody had to be sent to the front

16 line. Some people could be sent to do their labour duty.

17 Q. My question was simply with regard to age. If necessary, all men

18 up to the age of 55 were potentially sent to the front line if necessary;

19 right?

20 A. Well, it depends on the needs involved.

21 Q. I would ask you, sir -- I've already put that to you as the

22 condition. If it was needed, all men up to the age of 55 faced the

23 possibility of being sent to the front line. In other words, if you were

24 60 years old, there was no way you would be sent to the front line; but

25 until you were 55, if you were 55 or younger, you faced the possibility;

Page 7792

1 right?

2 A. There is that possibility. There is that possibility, but I'm not

3 certain of that because that is why there is work obligation and there is

4 military obligation. I don't know how else to answer you.

5 Q. At the time of the call-up on the 18th of April, 1992, you were 51

6 years old, almost 52; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you did not know when you reported to the high school whether

9 you would be sent to the front line or be given a work assignment in Foca

10 itself; right? You had no idea.

11 A. I had no idea. I had no idea whether they would send me anywhere.

12 I don't know. It was for me to respond to the call-up.

13 Q. Had you been sent to the front line, you could have gotten killed.

14 You stated that yourself; right? And I'll quote from your interview to

15 defence investigators in June of 2000, June 6th: "I could have got killed

16 if I went there," meaning the front line. That was a distinct

17 possibility; isn't that right?

18 A. There was the possibility of everyone who was going to the front

19 to get killed. And also people who went for work obligation to have

20 gotten killed, too, and also you can get killed in the middle of this

21 courtroom.

22 Q. Sir, you heard your wife testify here about work obligations, and

23 she used the word "happy" to describe how one felt to receive a work

24 assignment instead of being sent to the front line. That's how you felt,

25 too; right?

Page 7793













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Page 7794

1 A. A happy man doesn't always have to be right. However, under those

2 circumstances, I felt no happiness whatsoever, nor did I volunteer. I

3 went on orders.

4 Q. Sir, you lived in Foca for many years before the war, so you knew

5 about the existence and the function of the KP Dom; right? Perhaps not in

6 detail, but certainly you knew the role that KP Dom played in your

7 community.

8 A. I only knew that it also had an economic section and a section

9 where people served their sentences. I realise that they had an economy

10 of their own and that they also had a section where persons were serving

11 their prison sentences.

12 Q. You knew that the warden of the KP Dom had an important function

13 because he was the person who was running this institution; right?

14 A. Well, at any rate, the warden does. But the warden also has other

15 people who help him perform his duty.

16 Q. One of the important functions of the KP Dom was security. In

17 other words, the people who were being sent to KP Dom were convicted

18 criminals, including murderers, and it would be very important that the

19 warden and the people working for him made sure that these criminals did

20 not escape into your community; right?

21 A. That is why there is a unit that guards these criminals and

22 murderers, people who are serving their sentences. There are people who

23 guard them, who provide security there, and who had vast experience in

24 this area, as you heard from witnesses from both sides. Because first

25 they would undergo an internship so that they would get to know their

Page 7795

1 rights and duties as thoroughly as possible, and only then would they

2 become policemen on the security detail.

3 Q. You also knew that access into the KP Dom was tightly controlled;

4 right? You couldn't just go in there and have access to any of the

5 prisoners there, let's say, to exact revenge; right?

6 A. No, I didn't know anything about that. That is the duty of the

7 security people. That's why it's called "security." So they are the ones

8 who are in charge of that, not me.

9 Q. Also before the war, the KP Dom Foca had received prisoners from

10 the whole area of Bosnia and Herzegovina, not just Foca municipality;

11 right? It was one of the largest prisons in that part of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 A. Well, I don't know from which areas it received them, but probably

14 from other areas, too, because there weren't enough offenders in the town

15 of Foca itself. They must have received people from other areas. It

16 wasn't that the Focans were such people that they would keep the prison

17 full. As far as I know, these murderers came from other republics, not

18 only Bosnia-Herzegovina. Maybe. I don't know. I really don't know.

19 Q. You knew the warden, Radojica Tesevic; right?

20 A. I knew Mr. Tesevic.

21 Q. You never heard any complaints about the way he was running the

22 KP Dom, did you?

23 A. To tell you the truth, I was a man who didn't really listen to

24 what other people did, what kind of problems they have, et cetera. I

25 wanted to mind my own business. But I did not hear of him having any

Page 7796

1 problems, no.

2 Q. When Mr. Tesevic left Foca shortly after the outbreak of war, it

3 was to take a group of about a hundred Muslim prisoners to safety; right?

4 A. When I came to the KP Dom, a few days later I heard that from

5 other people, that he and some other individuals who worked for security

6 left, taking along a group of people who were serving their prison

7 sentences. Whether it was only Muslims, whether there were both, whether

8 there were one and the other and the third, I don't know. But I think

9 that I heard one of the Muslim witnesses here say that it wasn't only

10 Muslims there, that there were others. I just heard about it from other

11 people.

12 Q. You wouldn't dispute, then, the exhibit that was put forth -- you

13 wouldn't dispute, then, an exhibit that was entered here in court as P53

14 which states that Mr. Tesevic took 98 prisoners to Montenegro, and that

15 the authorities in Sarajevo offered to take them to safety in Tuzla and

16 even to pay for that transportation; right? I mean, you wouldn't dispute

17 that?

18 A. I have been suspected of having committed war crimes here, and my

19 defence is here also, and let them say whether that should be disputed or

20 not.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

22 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, in view of what Ms. Kuo

23 said, I mean, I didn't want to intervene before the witness gave his

24 answer, but perhaps we should see on the basis of what she is saying this,

25 and then we can give a comment or an answer.

Page 7797

1 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure what your point is. What are you asking

2 for? If you're objecting to the question, I'm not sure what it is. He's

3 already answered it in a way which no doubt counsel will take him up on.

4 He is the accused. He can be asked to make admissions if he wishes to.

5 He's entitled to refuse to answer them on the grounds of incriminating

6 himself but there are procedures there that follow from that. What is the

7 basis of your objection? That it's irrelevant, or what?

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was my

9 understanding. I know what the rights of the accused are, but in

10 principle -- I mean, I didn't want to speak in advance. If Ms. Kuo is

11 showing a document or the contents of some document and asking the accused

12 about that, I think it would be right for the document to be shown to the

13 accused so that he could then say what he has to say. So that is the

14 basis of our objection.

15 JUDGE HUNT: The question was not based upon the contents of the

16 document. It was put quite clearly, this is the effect of it: Do you

17 admit that Mr. Tesevic took 98 prisoners to Montenegro and that the

18 authorities in Sarajevo offered to take them to safety in Tuzla and even

19 to pay for their transportation. Now if he cannot answer that, the next

20 question, I should think, would be, well, have a look at this document.

21 Having read that, do you agree with the facts that this states? I still

22 don't understand what your problem is. I'm very willing to listen to you

23 if you can explain it to me.

24 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness, the accused

25 as a witness, said in response to the previous question that he knows

Page 7798













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Page 7799

1 about that on the basis of what other people had told him, nothing else.

2 So he had already answered that question. If we go on further and if we

3 invoke the document, I thought it would be fair to show the accused this

4 document. The accused already explained that he only heard about that

5 when he came to the KP Dom, and that he didn't know anything else about

6 it, that he heard that Tesevic had gone. That was the previous question

7 and that was the answer.

8 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo, are you challenging his answer to the

9 previous question? That's, I suppose, the first question.

10 MS. KUO: Your Honour --

11 JUDGE HUNT: The first issue.

12 MS. KUO: I actually think that I've made my -- the point that I

13 wanted to make, and I don't really need to go further into this document,

14 so I can move on.

15 JUDGE HUNT: You are entitled to ask him whether he concedes a

16 particular fact.

17 MS. KUO: Yes.

18 JUDGE HUNT: I think probably your reference to the document is

19 what has caused all the trouble. But you are entitled to ask him whether

20 he concedes a particular fact. He can say, "I can only tell you what I've

21 heard," and you'll probably be stuck with that. Anyway, if you withdraw

22 the question, it will save all the problem, whatever that problem may be.

23 MS. KUO: That's fine, Your Honour. I don't wish to pursue this.

24 JUDGE HUNT: Very well.

25 MS. KUO:

Page 7800

1 Q. You would agree, wouldn't you, that when Mr. Tesevic left the KP

2 Dom, based on what you heard, that it was in his official capacity?

3 A. I cannot claim in which capacity he left, private, official. I

4 heard that he had left. How and which way, I don't know. I didn't hear

5 about it. I don't know.

6 Q. Sorry, I may have misunderstood you, then. You stated that you

7 heard after you got to the KP Dom that Mr. Tesevic had left, and I thought

8 that you also said that he had left to take prisoners away. That's what

9 you heard; right?

10 A. When I came, after a few days, I heard from people at the KP Dom

11 that he went with prisoners and with a few men from the security, went on

12 a trip, that he took persons who were serving prison sentences before the

13 armed conflict broke out.

14 Q. In fact, when he took the prisoners with the security staff, it

15 was in official KP Dom vehicles; right?

16 A. I heard that there were two Furgons which were later found in

17 Spuz in Montenegro.

18 Q. You had to go, or have them brought back for the KP Dom use;

19 right? So you actually personally know that he went in official vehicles,

20 don't you?

21 A. These are vehicles of the KP Dom, and it is only natural because I

22 was in charge of preserving property, I sent two drivers to drive those

23 two Furgons from Spuz, Montenegro to the KP Dom. Who told him to drive

24 them, in which way, that I don't know about. I don't know anything about

25 that.

Page 7801

1 Q. Mr. Tesevic was only gone for a few days at the end of April and

2 returned in early May. Isn't that right?

3 A. Please, you are ask me about something which I cannot confirm to

4 be correct because I heard only towards the very end of May that he had

5 returned. I don't know the exact date when he returned, but then it is

6 probable that he did not return in the beginning. Perhaps it was the

7 second half of May that he returned.

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, as part of your duties at the KP Dom at this time,

9 you were in charge of the farm; right?

10 A. The main person in charge of the farm was the late Mr. Novica

11 Mojovic so he had the right to say that he came on the 20th of May, on the

12 1st of May, on the 30th of June as far as these cases are concerned.

13 Q. Mr. Mojovic was under your supervision; right? He was in charge

14 of the farm exclusively, but you were in charge of the farm and the

15 furniture factory and metalwork shop and other economic functions

16 according to your testimony?

17 A. It is a fact that I was appointed warden or director, whatever you

18 prefer, of part of the KP Dom for the economic part. However, because of

19 my lack of experience and because of my lack of knowledge concerning the

20 operation of all these facilities, my subordinates were no different from

21 me. They knew a lot more than I did, so we all breathed in the same way,

22 so to speak, because they helped me in each and every one of these

23 cases so that they could do what I didn't know how to do and they would

24 tell me what would be the proper thing to do and then I would sort of

25 bring all of this together and conclude, all right, let's do this. But in

Page 7802

1 this war period, people didn't look at a week or two or whatever, people

2 would rather say that somebody came back to work earlier, a week or two

3 earlier. People didn't want to, to make any trouble over five days or

4 seven days, whatever. The late Novica told me towards the end of May,

5 Mr. Tesevic has come, and I took his word for it, and I did not check to

6 see which date he exactly came back on. It wasn't necessary.

7 Q. So what you're telling us is that you depended on and trusted your

8 subordinates, right, such as Mr. Mojovic?

9 A. At any rate, Mr. Mojovic, Drakul Jokanovic, because these are

10 people who I trusted, and we always found common solutions.

11 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have you

12 shown Exhibit P3 and draw your attention to item 72.

13 Do you see Radojica Tesevic listed at 72?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you see the beginning of his work obligation as 8 May 1992?

16 A. I see that date.

17 Q. And in the far right-hand column it also says "farm"; do you see

18 that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So you don't dispute, do you, that Mr. Tesevic returned to work at

21 the KP Dom on the 8th of May, 1992, but at the farm?

22 A. I am challenging the date.

23 Q. On what basis do you challenge that date?

24 A. On the basis of the 8th of May, that he came then, and then until

25 the 24th of May. I personally think that things were put the other way

Page 7803













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Page 7804

1 around here. I think that it would be more accurate to say that he came

2 on the 24th of May rather than the 8th of May because during those first

3 days, the month of May, I was at the farm often, and I did not see him

4 there. So I have to dispute this. It seems to me that this could not

5 have been that way. I think that he first came to the farm, but at this

6 time, no.

7 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, are you telling us that today, nine years later,

8 you remember the exact date that Mr. Tesevic started work at the farm?

9 That it was the 24th rather than the 8th of May? You know that enough to

10 testify here under --

11 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

12 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac. Wait a minute, sir, wait a minute?

13 A. Heaven forbid.

14 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, obviously this is a

15 mistake because names were typed right after the other. The 24th of May

16 is for the other person above this name, above Mr. Tesevic's name. Could

17 the accused please take a look at this again, because this date is not for

18 Mr. Tesevic at all. Obviously he was reading the dates for the person

19 above the name of the person who he is being asked about because next to

20 person 71, that is Rasevic Cedo, it says the 24th of May.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Are you suggesting your client has misread it or

22 Ms. Kuo has misread it?

23 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Ms. Kuo said

24 exactly where the accused should look, but obviously he looked one line

25 up.

Page 7805

1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Mr. Bakrac, that's a matter for you to raise

2 later. You cannot assist your client in the course of the

3 cross-examination. If there has been some mistake made by counsel, please

4 do object. But you can't assist your client in that way. If it's a

5 mistake, it's a mistake, and you can point it out later. But please, just

6 let the cross-examination proceed.

7 Yes, Ms. Kuo.

8 MS. KUO: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. You've told us that it was not possible that Mr. Tesevic started

10 on the 8th of May. Are you standing by that?

11 A. I agree that I made a mistake with this date. I went one line

12 up. Now that I look at it more carefully. So let's not create any

13 confusion there. I cannot dispute it 100 per cent, but I can claim that

14 in that period, I was coming there, and I did not see him there. The date

15 that is written here is the 8th of May, 1992, but it is certain that I did

16 not see him at the farm during the first half of May.

17 Q. Sir, you've told us that you depended on your subordinates for the

18 details of the way things were run, and Mr. Mojovic was the person in

19 charge of the farm; right? That was his exclusive duty. He never left

20 the farm, right, during working hours?

21 A. Except if there was any special need. He worked full working

22 hours.

23 Q. So he's the one who would know best when somebody started work on

24 the farm, and he would be the person who would provide information that

25 would show up on a list like this; right?

Page 7806

1 A. I wish he were alive and that he could confirm all of this, but he

2 said to me around the end of May that Mr. Tesevic came back. Why he did

3 not inform me before that, I don't know.

4 Q. Would you have expected him to inform you of the exact date that

5 Mr. Tesevic started at the farm?

6 A. Well, not only Mr. Tesevic, but anyone could inform me about the

7 approximate date about anyone, so I don't doubt that he would have done

8 it.

9 MS. KUO: I see that it's 11.00, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 11.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00

12 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Ms. Kuo.

14 MS. KUO:

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, since you know that Mr. Tesevic returned to the

16 farm, could you tell us what his functions were?

17 A. If you allow me, before that I'd like to say something else. What

18 I have already said, because when I learned that Mr. Tesevic had returned

19 to the farm and that was, as far as I remember I left in late May -- or

20 maybe I went to Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic in late May or early June, and I

21 asked why doesn't Mr. Tesevic come back to the KP Dom, as I had been

22 appointed a temporary warden. And he answered then, "Milorad, don't ask

23 any questions. Let Mr. Radojica Tesevic stay at the farm." And that is

24 how he stayed at the farm.

25 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you gave a statement to investigators of the OTP

Page 7807

1 over the course of four days last year; right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And you gave that statement of your own free will in order to get

4 your side of the story out; right?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Your lawyers were present during that interview, and you were able

7 to speak freely; right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. And the interview took four days because you were given the

10 opportunity to be as thorough as possible, and you were given an

11 opportunity at the end to add or clarify anything that you wanted; right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Any effort you would have made to be relieved of your appointment

14 as the warden of KP Dom would have been important to say at that point;

15 right? Because that's part of your defence.

16 A. I don't know if anyone asked me about it. I don't remember.

17 Q. You talked during the course of your statement to the

18 investigators about various interviews or meetings that you had with

19 Mr. Mladjenovic; right?

20 A. Well, if I did, then the statement will say so.

21 Q. You described the time that you went to him, the day after you

22 were taken -- your appointment to the KP Dom, when the -- the same

23 incident you described yesterday in your testimony; right?

24 A. I suppose so.

25 Q. You never mentioned in those four days of the statement the

Page 7808













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Page 7809

1 conversation that you're now telling the Court about, about asking why

2 Mr. Tesevic was not brought back as warden. That's something you just

3 made up today, isn't it?

4 A. I didn't. That's the gospel truth. I swore to speak the truth,

5 and it is true, and that I didn't remember it or that nobody asked me,

6 that is another matter.

7 Q. Are you saying that during the course of your interview, you were

8 only answering the questions that were posed to you specifically and not

9 offering evidence that you think might help your defence? Is that what

10 you're telling us?

11 A. You know what? I cannot say now whether I'm helping the defence

12 or something, I'm just saying that things that come to my mind. And when

13 you ask me, then I do my best to answer them accurately.

14 Q. It's true that during the course of your statement, at very end of

15 the fourth and last day, you were asked if you had anything to add or if

16 there was anything you wanted to clarify, and you said no; right? You

17 didn't say, "Well ask me some more questions and I'll answer them." You

18 simply said, "I have nothing to add"; isn't that right?

19 A. Well, please, a man who for the first time in his life appears

20 before people who question him, and I've never had any experience of that

21 kind, I've not even committed a misdemeanor, so I had little possibility

22 of remembering everything that I should say, either in the interests of

23 the Defence or in the interests of -- but I'm now trying to speak once

24 again in the interests of truth. And who will appreciate that, it is up

25 to the Honourable Court.

Page 7810

1 Q. I find it interesting, Mr. Krnojelac, that in fact, your statement

2 just now about your conversation with Mr. Mladjenovic was not in response

3 to a question that I asked about Mr. Mladjenovic, but in fact was in

4 response to a question I asked about what Mr. Tesevic was doing. Will you

5 now answer the question: What was Mr. Tesevic doing when he returned to

6 the farm?

7 A. Mr. Mladjenovic told me on that very occasion, "Let him be on the

8 farm." The fact that he knows many people in Yugoslavia will be welcome

9 because it will be easier for him to get the fodder so as to keep the

10 farm going.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you still have not answered my question. What work

12 did Mr. Tesevic do when he returned and was assigned to the farm in May of

13 1992?

14 A. Well, I think I did answer it, but he went with drivers at times

15 to purchase feed.

16 Q. So his basic job -- and he was supervised by Mr. Mojovic, who in

17 turn was supervised by you; right?

18 A. I can't say that it was supervision. I would say it was a

19 companions' agreement. I wouldn't say supervision. Gentlemen, please,

20 understand, how could I teach -- issue any orders to such experienced

21 people? He seeks with them the best solution so that it all could go on,

22 so that the production could go on, and so that everything could be

23 protected.

24 Q. Mr. Tesevic no longer had any managerial responsibilities or

25 powers at that point, did he?

Page 7811

1 A. He didn't, as far as I know. I didn't see him issue orders to

2 Mr. Mojovic. I believe they would also get together and consult one

3 another.

4 Q. Quite the contrary to Mr. Tesevic issuing orders to Mr. Mojovic,

5 Mr. Mojovic, you've already told us, was in charge of the farm, and

6 therefore Mr. Tesevic was working under his supervision. Isn't that

7 right?

8 A. Yes, that's true. That's right.

9 Q. And it wasn't until the summer of 1993, after you had left and

10 Zoran Sekulovic replaced you, that Mr. Tesevic was made the head of the

11 farm; right?

12 A. No, he wasn't made the head of the farm then. He was made the

13 head of the Drina Economic Unit; that is, he was appointed its manager.

14 And that is what this list says.

15 Q. Now, yesterday you talked about how Mr. Tesevic became the

16 president of the executive council of Foca in 1997. By that time, several

17 residents of Foca had already publicly been indicted by this Tribunal for

18 war crimes; isn't that right?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. And the -- there were several international organisations in Foca

21 at that time; right?

22 A. They were there before and they were there at that time.

23 Q. It's fair to say that at that time, Foca was badly in need of

24 economic aid to recover from the war; right?

25 A. Not only at that time, but to this day it is in bad need of help

Page 7812

1 in every respect.

2 Q. Isn't it true that appointing a moderate to such a high position

3 in the Foca government would signal to the International Community their

4 openness for international aid?

5 A. Well, why do you ask me that? I did not appoint them, nor do I

6 know who appointed him or why. I have no way of knowing it, and I can't

7 answer this question. But, yes, Foca was in a dire need of help.

8 Q. You said that when Mr. Tesevic came back, he was not put in the

9 position of warden. You continued in that position; right?

10 A. It is a fact, and I was surprised no end when in late July, I

11 received the decision on my appointment, that they had kept me and not

12 brought in somebody else, either Tesevic again or somebody else. But

13 that's how it was.

14 Q. In fact, just before your appointment as permanent warden on the

15 17th of July, according to your own testimony, you had been absent from

16 Foca for almost two weeks visiting your son in Belgrade; right?

17 A. I was absent from Foca, and I didn't -- wasn't delivered the

18 decision on the 17th as it says. It could have been toward the very end

19 of July, or perhaps even as late as early August, because the mail -- I

20 told you about this, and I thought you understood me. There were

21 difficulties. There were problems with lines because of all the combat

22 operations and all that.

23 Q. In your absence, nobody was made temporary warden instead of you;

24 right?

25 A. You mean during my absence because of my son? I don't understand

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Page 7814

1 the question.

2 Q. When you were absent from the KP Dom in Belgrade because of your

3 son, nobody else was appointed to be temporary warden; right?

4 A. That is correct, and there was no need to appoint anyone. Had it

5 even been a matter of two or three months, there would have been no need

6 for that. Please understand. Because those people who knew their

7 business were there, and they worked, and they could largely do either in

8 agreement or something, not to appoint a temporary warden during that

9 period of time.

10 Q. During the time you were temporary warden until your permanent

11 appointment on the 17th of July, you never received any complaints about

12 the job you were doing, did you?

13 A. I didn't get any complaints from anybody.

14 Q. During your time as warden, you prepared a report on the KP Dom,

15 right, including -- I'm referring to the report of November 1992 where you

16 added a brief historical position of KP Dom Foca, that it was built in

17 1950, its basic structure, the existence of the Drina Economic Unit, et

18 cetera. That's a report that you prepared; right?

19 A. Thanks to my working group and my board, we managed to write -- to

20 put together this report, following the instructions as to what the report

21 should include, of that detached office of the Ministry of Justice in

22 Bijeljina.

23 Q. In the course of putting that report together, you would have

24 known that the economic unit was an important part of the KP Dom, even

25 before the war; right?

Page 7815

1 A. Every citizen of Foca was aware how the economic unit of the KP

2 Dom was important, at the KP Dom, I mean general, and the goods it

3 produced went beyond the boundaries of the municipality of Foca for a

4 very, very long time and reached much further distances than it could be

5 done at the time when I was the manager of this economic unit.

6 Q. The reason the economic unit existed within the prison was

7 to provide rehabilitation for the prisoners; right?

8 A. Any -- that is the reason for any educational institutional, and

9 that was also considered an educational institution, or rather, an

10 institution for the reeducation of convicts and prisoners serving their

11 sentences there.

12 Q. The basic premise of the Drina Economic Unit was not to make

13 money, but to provide rehabilitation and training for prisoners in

14 preparation for their reentry into society; right?

15 A. That's what I heard, but the main purpose was to repair the

16 damage, to preserve the property, and prepare it for the restart of

17 production in the time of war, in my case.

18 Q. During the war, the Drina Economic Unit's main function was no

19 longer to provide rehabilitation, was it? It was to assist in the war

20 effort by producing food and items that could be sold or bartered; right?

21 A. The farm, the economic unit, had workers who were convicts, that

22 is, who had been serving there before the conflicts broke out, and they

23 continued doing that. And naturally, this was this other thing, too, to

24 produce as much as possible and to save and preserve the livestock and

25 hens and sheep and swine and so on and so forth.

Page 7816

1 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, as a former teacher, you didn't have any experience

2 running an economic enterprise such as a farm or a factory, did you?

3 A. I didn't, but I didn't run it all by myself. I always consulted

4 other people. I'm telling you -- I'm telling you about this. I always

5 consulted with people who had more experience. I wasn't left to myself.

6 I was just an organ who channelled it, who marshalled it, and resolved

7 various problems in consultation with others.

8 Q. But you were the person at the top of that organisation; right?

9 Even though you had people subordinate to you who were working for you and

10 had more expertise, you were still the person at the top who was

11 answerable for all of their actions; isn't that right?

12 A. My associates and I were aware that, as you call it, the top was

13 only the product of the red tape; otherwise, I did not stand out, and I

14 never thought that I was on a hill or something and that somebody else was

15 at the foot of the hill. That's how I felt, as if I was an equal among

16 the equals.

17 Q. But as the warden, you had the power to determine the internal

18 functioning of the KP Dom, didn't you?

19 A. I repeat, the board of directors thought it -- that is, we settled

20 those matters through joint effort.

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you have told us that you were appointed warden by

22 the Ministry of Justice, and I will ask the usher to show you Exhibit D29

23 which is a decision by the presidency of the Serbian republic which was

24 confirmed on the 12th of May, 1992, by the assembly of Serbian people in

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this decision gives the Ministry of Justice

Page 7817

1 the responsibility to establish KP Doms throughout Serbian, the Serbian

2 republic, including Foca.

3 And I will draw your attention first to Article 11. You see at

4 Article 11 that according to this decision, which was in effect by May of

5 1992, that penal and correctional institutions shall be managed by the

6 warden and deputy warden appointed and dismissed by the Minister of

7 Justice. That's, in fact --

8 A. Yes, that is what it says here, penal and correctional

9 organisations shall be managed by the warden and deputy warden appointed

10 and relieved by the Minister of Justice. But will you listen to me? I

11 was appointed precisely -- I was appointed the warden precisely by the

12 Ministry of Justice, of a part of the KP Dom, and there were 25, 26, 27

13 convicts. We saw that last time. And that the manager of the Drina

14 Economic Unit.

15 They never appointed a deputy, nor sent me any decision regarding

16 the deputy, and it surfaced subsequently after I left, according to the

17 record. And it is a fact.

18 Q. But you were appointed the warden, even though there was no deputy

19 warden; right?

20 A. Appointed the warden? Of a part of the KP Dom, however.

21 Q. I'll ask you to look at Article 4. Why don't you read Article 4

22 for us.

23 A. Internal organisation -- "the international organisation of the

24 KPO shall be determined by the rules of the interim organisation issued by

25 the

Page 7818













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Page 7819

1 warden in agreement with the Ministry of Justice."

2 Q. Just so there's no confusion, when you say "KPO," you mean KP Dom.

3 That's just an abbreviation?

4 A. The penal and correctional organisation, that's what it says here,

5 or institution, penitentiary.

6 Q. So as the warden, you were responsible for issuing rules on

7 internal organisation; right? That's what you did.

8 A. Internal organisation of the part which was under the Ministry of

9 Justice. Please try to understand. I don't know how many times I've

10 already said it, and you also have a document, that a part of the KP Dom

11 had been let by contract for the accommodation of detained persons. It

12 had been let to the military command for that purpose.

13 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, we're only talking about the Ministry of Justice at

14 this point, and the decision that you're reading from is exactly the

15 decision which gave the Ministry of Justice the power to appoint someone

16 like you to be warden of the KP Dom, so that much is clear.

17 Would you please look at Article 5 and read that to us now.

18 A. "The security of the KPO shall be provided by the employees who

19 work in those organisations prior to this document, and if necessary,

20 employees of the Ministry of the Interior shall help them." This part

21 refers to that part that had been let to the army, and in no way to the

22 part which remained under the management of the warden appointed. But to

23 be quite honest, this is the first time that I see this gazette of the

24 Serb people of May 1992.

25 Q. So are you saying that even though this entire document refers to

Page 7820

1 the KP Dom's setup by the Ministry of Justice of which you say you were a

2 part, that this article was not applied -- that this article about

3 security of the KP Dom only applied to the part that was not under the

4 Ministry of Justice? Is that what you're saying?

5 A. What I'm saying is that this article has to do with the part which

6 was under the army command, in my view.

7 Q. Very well. Let's look at Article 6. Please read that for us.

8 A. "In order to reform" -- well, I can't see this well. "In order

9 to reform," I think and it also says, "and enable them to acquire,

10 maintain and improve their working skills, work habits and qualifications,

11 business units may be established within the KPO in order to make them

12 useful citizens upon their release."

13 Q. There was one word there which is a little bit difficult to read

14 and the English translator filled in the possibility that the word was

15 "inmates." Is that possible? It was an order to reform the inmates.

16 Would you agree that that makes sense?

17 A. In order to make it possible for them, make it possible for them

18 to take part in life. I don't know who they were referring to. Were they

19 referring to those persons or to persons who were serving prison

20 sentences? I'm not a legal expert. I can't know what they meant. That's

21 what they wrote in that sense. Within a KPO, business units, economic

22 units, may be established. However, there was no need to establish new

23 business units here because units of that kind had already existed.

24 This would refer to a newly established KP Dom penal and

25 correctional facility. But this Official Gazette allows that -- believe

Page 7821

1 me, today it would -- I would prefer it if we could go out and work

2 somewhere, not just lie in that cell. A bird doesn't like being in a

3 cage, let alone people in a room, cells of that kind. That's why it's

4 better for everyone to go out and work.

5 Q. Sir, we're not getting involved in that issue at the moment. My

6 only question was about the word that was illegible, and you said you

7 didn't know whether it was referring to those persons or to persons who

8 were serving prison sentences. I understand what you meant by persons

9 serving prison sentences, but -- or those persons. I'm not sure, which

10 other persons are you referring to that that possibly could be?

11 A. That's what the people who were in charge of these people were

12 thinking of. Those who were in charge of the persons who were in the KP

13 Dom, or rather, in that part that belonged to the military.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note that there is no illegible

15 word in the original of the official gazette.

16 A. I was not in charge of these people who were detained in that

17 way. That is to say, who were detained by the military command.

18 MS. KUO:

19 Q. I've received an interpreter's note that there was no word

20 missing. That was something that I thought because I can't read your

21 language, but I understand now that that sentence is ambiguous as far as

22 who is being referred to as being reformed. And you're posing the

23 possibility that they're referring both to inmates as well as the

24 detainees that you said were under military command; right? That's,

25 that's how you interpret this article.

Page 7822

1 A. I said that I'm not a lawyer in order to be able to interpret

2 that. If this were an equation, I'd try to solve it, but this legal --

3 these legal matters should be interpreted by lawyers. I'm sorry, I can't

4 answer that.

5 Q. The detainees, as far as you know, just looking at the sentence

6 again, and perhaps applying a little bit of math logic to it, the Muslim

7 detainees who were kept at the KP Dom, there was no reason for them to

8 need to acquire skills to make them useful citizens upon their release,

9 was there? They were already useful citizens, intellectuals, skilled

10 craftsmen. That's not what this article refers to, is it? Only criminals

11 without skills.

12 A. Not necessarily only to enable them, et cetera, but this should

13 also be recreation for them, getting them out of closed premises,

14 regardless of whether it's to a furniture factory or to the farm or to the

15 metalwork shop, which, again, implies this openness with a few metalwork

16 shops that are within the metalwork shop itself. So that's it.

17 Q. There's nothing in there that talks about recreation, is there?

18 A. Oh, please, I'm explaining this to you from my own point of view.

19 You asked me as a mathematics person and I'm trying to explain that from

20 that point of view. But at any rate, you should understand that yesterday

21 I was fair and truthful, and I said who was in charge of what as far as

22 other persons were concerned. I was not in charge of that. I cannot

23 speak on behalf of others in terms of what they were in charge of, because

24 I am not familiar with further powers in this respect.

25 Q. I'm a little bit confused when you said, "I was not in charge of

Page 7823













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Page 7824

1 that," but I thought --

2 A. I'm even more confused.

3 Q. You said, "I was not in charge of that," but I thought you have

4 already told us that were you in charge precisely of the business unit?

5 A. I was in charge of the economic unit, I'm not denying that.

6 Q. Are you saying that part of the function of the economic unit was

7 to provide recreation?

8 A. I didn't mean it in that sense, just recreation. I'm simply

9 saying that it's much better to go out and work than lie in a closed room

10 because it is work that created man, after all.

11 MS. KUO: Thank you, usher. I would like to have the witness now

12 shown Exhibit D29 -- I'm sorry, D34.

13 Q. I'm showing you now a Defence exhibit which is a decision by the

14 executive committee of the Serbian municipality of Foca, dated 26th of

15 April, 1992, and the decision reads as follows: "The" Foca Penal and

16 Correctional Facility, that is the KP Dom, is granted permission to impose

17 a work obligation on persons fit for work who are not engaged in Yugoslav

18 army units." And then under paragraph 2, "A work obligation should be

19 imposed on workers according to the list submitted by Foca KP Dom which

20 has been approved by the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of

21 Foca."

22 This is a decision that you were aware of, isn't that right, in

23 your position as temporary warden of the KP Dom?

24 A. This is the 26th of April, 1992. I have to confess to you that I

25 cannot remember having seen this decision, but it primarily pertains to

Page 7825

1 that situation when persons who are not engaged in the units of the

2 Yugoslav people's army -- well, here it says of the Yugoslav army, to go

3 back to the jobs that they had before the armed conflict broke out and

4 were not engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska. I did not -- I do not

5 remember having seen this. I just know that there were calls over the

6 loudspeaker by the police telling people about this. Those who did not

7 hear it were told by others. So, for example, people would say, well, I

8 didn't hear this, but I heard about it from such and such a person, and I

9 came.

10 Q. You were already at the KP Dom when this decision came out; right?

11 A. In terms of the date, I was in the KP Dom, but I say that I did

12 not have this kind of a decision in my hands before. I do not remember

13 having received any such decision at that time while I was in the KP Dom.

14 That is five or six days after I got there. I don't think that anybody

15 gave me this kind of decision. Nobody did, I'm sure. I can't remember.

16 Q. But surely you knew that this decision had been made, because the

17 effect of it was that the experienced workers from the KP Dom were now

18 coming back to help out during the war time; isn't that right?

19 A. I told you, this was over the loudspeaker. This vehicle

20 circulating around town informing people that they should report to their

21 workplaces. It's not that I'm familiar with this kind of decision.

22 Q. I'm not asking you about the general call-up to which you

23 responded on the 18th. I'm asking specifically about this decision which

24 is geared specifically to the KP Dom. You were aware that the KP Dom

25 workers were now being called back as part of their work obligation;

Page 7826

1 right? This was something that was important for you to know because you

2 needed help to put these back into working order at the KP Dom; right? Or

3 are you saying you had no idea?

4 A. I'm just saying that they heard that call and responded to that

5 oral call by the KP Dom, not on the basis of this, as far as I know.

6 Maybe this was read out over the loudspeaker, I don't know. But they came

7 in response to the call they heard over the loudspeaker.

8 Q. Are you telling us that you had no idea that a decision had been

9 made that would enable KP Dom workers to come back as part of their work

10 assignment?

11 A. That a special decision was passed, I didn't know about it. I

12 don't remember knowing about it. I know that people did come back, but I

13 don't remember such a special decision being issued.

14 Q. Focussing on paragraph 2 where it refers to a list of workers

15 submitted by the KP Dom Foca, isn't it true that as warden, you were asked

16 to submit such a list of people who should be called back to work at the

17 KP Dom?

18 A. I do not remember that I gave any such list. I just remember that

19 I asked for some people who were craftsmen working at the furniture

20 factory to return to the furniture factory.

21 Q. And you asked that to Mr. Mladjenovic; isn't that right?

22 A. Yes, yes. And he told me that it was the military command that

23 had to be approached with regard to that, because these people were doing

24 their military duty at the front line, so the military command had to be

25 approached. But he took this role upon himself. He promised me that he

Page 7827

1 would help me with all this work concerning organisation and repair, and

2 he took this obligation upon himself to see what could be done about

3 this. And nobody returned any of them to me while I was there. This was

4 the head of the varnishing shop and varnisher and also head of the

5 upholstery, they did not return when I was there but I see in this list

6 that later they came; that is to say, that they felt that it was necessary

7 for them to be returned.

8 Q. Basically, you did submit a request to Mr. Mladjenovic, and he

9 approved your request and enabled it to be carried out; right?

10 A. I said that he did not return these people to me, that these

11 craftsmen did not come back to the KP Dom to work, and they were the main

12 craftsmen there. If I'm not mistaken, about 100 big book shelves had to

13 be varnished and that required a certain temperature because varnishing

14 cannot be carried out --

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, please, we don't need this kind of detail. Just

16 answer the question. You asked for certain people, and you got certain

17 people; right? Or did you not get anybody that you asked for?

18 A. I did not, I did not get for these -- get these people I had asked

19 for.

20 Q. How many times did you ask Mr. Mladjenovic for people, for former

21 employees of the KP Dom to be returned?

22 A. Well, it is hard to say quite precisely, but I did twice for sure,

23 if not more than that, but I'm sure about two times.

24 Q. And was it always for craftsmen?

25 A. Yes, yes, skilled labour.

Page 7828













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Page 7829

1 Q. Did you ever get anybody that you asked for?

2 A. Mr. Krsmanovic, the Furgon driver, I got him. I don't remember

3 having got anybody else.

4 Q. You asked specifically, you asked specifically for Mr. Krsmanovic

5 to be returned as driver; right?

6 A. Well, I did ask because I needed a young, able-bodied person quite

7 badly because, allow me to say so, gentlemen, at that time it was

8 difficult to travel because a lot of roads were mined. In August, I would

9 pass along a road in the evening, and already the next morning there was

10 an accident on that same road where an entire family was killed.

11 Q. Sir, you don't have to justify your request. The fact that you

12 made the request and that it was granted is enough. At the time that

13 Mr. Krsmanovic was brought back to the KP Dom at your request as a driver,

14 he was at the front line; right?

15 A. Before he got back to the KP Dom, he was at the front line.

16 Q. And you also needed somebody to help fix the boiler room; right?

17 A. Well, Mr. Pavlovic was already in the boiler room, and then Relja

18 at the metalwork shop, and Dusko. As for the generator, it was not

19 possible. A spare part was required and that had to be purchased abroad.

20 Q. Milan Pavlovic was also already at the front line when you called

21 him back because you needed somebody to help fix the boiler room; right?

22 A. Whether I called him directly or whether I asked Relja for

23 instructions as to who had been working there, because I really didn't

24 know who was working on the maintenance of the boiler room. It was

25 Relja who told me about that. So he came -- I don't know whether I

Page 7830

1 submitted a written request for that or whether I just asked

2 Mr. Mladjenovic. I can't remember. But most probably because he was very

3 important, he came, too.

4 Q. There were also other people who were given work assignments at

5 the KP Dom who were not working at the KP Dom before, and they were

6 working at the KP Dom as part of their rotation to the front line or

7 instead of being at the front line; right? And I'll give you, perhaps,

8 just one example. Mr. Slavisa Prodanovic, who was a lawyer and judge

9 before the war, was sent as a military conscript to work security at the

10 KP Dom; right? You knew about those instances as well.

11 A. I know that Mr. Prodanovic was in the security, but for me, that

12 was not work obligation because he did not work at the furniture factory.

13 He was involved in external security. From time to time, I would see him

14 in front of the entrance into the building.

15 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, as a teacher, you found it surprising that you were

16 given an assignment that was not related to your previous profession;

17 right?

18 A. Of course I was surprised and shocked.

19 Q. You know that the school was functioning during this time, except

20 for a short break, the school was functioning because you went to visit

21 the school secretary, Desanka Bogdanovic; right?

22 A. Well, since I often went to town with Mr. Lazo Divljan to get

23 food --

24 Q. Sir --

25 A. -- I also went up there, too.

Page 7831

1 Q. Sir, we don't need to have that repeated. We understand why and

2 how you were there. The question was, as a result of that, you knew that

3 the schools were functioning, especially your own school; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You also knew that your good friend Zarko Vukovic was in charge at

6 this time of recruiting and arranging for teachers to be assigned to

7 schools; right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You also know that there was a need for teachers because, in fact,

10 there were no Muslims who were teachers any more, so there was a teacher

11 shortage. Isn't that right?

12 A. There was no shortage of teachers because there were quite a few

13 ladies who had been unemployed before, so it was women teachers who were

14 employed whenever possible, colleagues of mine.

15 Q. In fact, your friend Zarko Vukovic was himself appointed a maths

16 teacher in September of 1992 as part of his work assignment; right?

17 A. My colleague Mr. Vukovic is a math teacher anyway, and from his

18 previous job, he was reassigned to work at a school as a math teacher.

19 His company was probably dormant at the time somehow.

20 Q. At the time that Mr. Vukovic was able to arrange for such

21 appointments at schools, you never asked him to be reappointed back to

22 your school as a math teacher, did you?

23 A. Mr. Vukovic could not assign me or any other teacher to a school

24 because Mr. Vukovic was director of the Uport company. And he did not

25 assign teachers, as far as I know. It was the ministry -- or rather, the

Page 7832

1 Ministry of Defence that assigned people to go to work at school, and the

2 executive committee of the assembly appointed principals. That is why --

3 please, may I?

4 Q. Yes, please.

5 A. That is why Mr. Avdic, the acting person, answered that to know

6 who did what, so that people would know that Mr. Vukovic came to teach

7 math at a primary school.

8 Q. And just to make sure that I haven't misheard you, you said that

9 an appointment to a work obligation at an elementary school was under the

10 Ministry of Defence?

11 A. Well, the Ministry of Defence gave work obligation just as they

12 gave military obligation. I mean, that's the way it was.

13 Q. You, aside from approaching Mr. Vukovic or not, you never

14 approached anyone else about trying to get your old job back as a maths

15 teacher, did you, during this time?

16 A. In conversation with Mr. Mladjenovic, I said that several times.

17 I said, "Oh, come on, send me back to my profession, to my own vocation."

18 They always said, "Wait a bit. This will pass quickly. You will get a

19 replacement. You'll go back to the schooling system." So that's the way

20 it went from day to day, and then all those misfortunes happened that did

21 happen from all sides.

22 Q. You were taken to the KP Dom on the 18th of April from the high

23 school; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. A man named Cicmil and another man gave you a ride in their car;

Page 7833













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7834

1 right? Or in a car.

2 A. Whose car it was I don't know. I know it was a white Lada.

3 Q. They even took you home at your request so that you could see your

4 family and let them know where you were going; right?

5 A. Only to let them know where I was going.

6 Q. They treated you politely, didn't they, these two men?

7 A. They did. Since they did me the favour and took me to see my

8 family, yes, I can say they were decent.

9 Q. They never threatened you or pointed weapons at you to make you go

10 with them, did they?

11 A. Look, I'm an old man. Who would point a weapon at such an old

12 man? They had no reason to.

13 Q. When they took you to the KP Dom, they didn't put you in a prison

14 cell, they put you in an office; right?

15 A. They put me in a room where the censorship had been. I wouldn't

16 call it an office. It's just a room.

17 Q. That's the room that you used as an office until you could move

18 upstairs to the large warden's office; right?

19 A. Quite so.

20 Q. These -- yes.

21 A. Except, except that that it couldn't accommodate many people so

22 that later on when more people came and when we had to hold board

23 meetings, they were usually short, but we had to move to another room, the

24 second or third one in that row. I can't remember. But it was larger

25 than the one that I had been in, the censorship room.

Page 7835

1 Q. I'm sorry, when you said you had the board meetings you had to

2 move to which larger office?

3 A. On the ground floor again, but whether it was the second or third

4 from that first office, I'm not sure.

5 Q. But that problem of not being able to hold the board meetings in a

6 room big enough was solved once you moved upstairs to the large warden's

7 office; right? The upstairs office where you eventually were moved was

8 big enough to accommodate the board meetings.

9 A. I'm referring to those early days in May until I moved to that

10 other room on the upper floor, on the second floor.

11 Q. The two men when they brought you to KP Dom offered you coffee and

12 drink; right?

13 A. Yes, in that office, yes, they did.

14 Q. And when you had questions of them, they answered your questions.

15 They didn't say, "Shut up, don't ask questions," did they?

16 A. No, they didn't. We had a normal conversation because they

17 realised that I didn't know what it was all about and I didn't know

18 anything, so, no, they were nothing special to me.

19 Q. Yet you --

20 A. Just talked.

21 Q. Yet you claimed in your interview with investigators of the Office

22 of the Prosecutor that you felt like a prisoner. That's not how a

23 prisoner gets treated, is it?

24 A. It does not matter at all, but you are in an area about which you

25 know nothing, and excuse me, but you don't even know where the WC is or

Page 7836

1 anything. You're just dumped in this place, you are sitting there with

2 some people. And no matter how much you talk with them, you nevertheless

3 have this feeling because in the yard there were already people who had

4 been brought in. So I thought that I might have been brought in because I

5 had failed to report before the 18th of April to anyone or responded to

6 the call-up.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. Krnojelac, that sort of answer doesn't help you

8 in your case. You need have no reason to be offensive to anybody here.

9 You have been treated with politeness by everybody. So please, try to

10 return the same behaviour that you are afforded yourself.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know what is

12 it that I did wrong. I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if you don't know, I'm afraid I can't teach

14 you.

15 MS. KUO:

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you were never told when you were taken -- when you

17 reported to the high school that you had failed to report soon enough;

18 right?

19 A. Nobody told me because it was all done in a hurry and the delivery

20 of that decision appointing the warden of the KP Dom. It didn't take more

21 than a few minutes.

22 Q. And no one told you that you were being taken to the KP Dom to be

23 interrogated or detained, did they?

24 A. No. Well, I was given this paper and told, and told why was I

25 being sent to the KP Dom and what would be my duty there.

Page 7837

1 Q. There was no reason for you to think that you were brought to the

2 KP Dom because you failed to report before the 18th of April, was there?

3 That's something you just made up. You know precisely that you were

4 brought to the KP Dom as your work assignment, not at a prisoner. Isn't

5 that right?

6 A. It simply occurred to me, "I seem to be a prisoner." That's how I

7 felt. That was this gut feeling I had.

8 Q. You asked the men who brought you specifically if you were

9 detained, and they told you, you weren't. Isn't that right?

10 A. I didn't ask them, "Am I detained?" I said, "Do you consider me

11 --" especially as I wanted to go to Mr. Mladjenovic, and they wouldn't

12 let me. Then I said, "Do you think that I am in prison or do you think

13 that I've been appointed the temporary warden."

14 Q. They told you that you were not a prisoner; isn't that right?

15 A. They said to me, "You were not brought in here to be detained in

16 here. You were brought here to be a temporary warden," and that is why

17 you can't go anywhere else from here." And then the next day was a

18 different story because I spent the night there in that same room.

19 Q. Do you mean to tell us that you were told that you could not leave

20 the premises of the KP Dom now that you had been appointed temporary

21 warden, that you had to stay there day and night?

22 A. What they thought -- but I asked as soon as I heard that there

23 were detainees in the KP Dom, Muslims, I then asked to go and see

24 Mr. Mladjenovic, and they said that is not possible. And I then thought

25 that perhaps I had been put in prison.

Page 7838













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7839

1 And then we stayed for some time, because it was the afternoon

2 when I came there, and as I've said, we had some coffee and drink and a

3 chat, and then I stayed there and to spend the night there. And in the

4 morning they said -- I suppose they must have discussed it meanwhile with

5 Mr. Mladjenovic, and in the morning they allowed me to go and see

6 Mr. Mladjenovic in the municipal hall, and I did, and had my second

7 conversation with him. And after that, I was allowed to move around this

8 part, as I have already told you, only in those early days around the

9 outside part where some doors and gates had to be shut so that

10 nobody could enter the prison compound.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, let me see if I get this straight. You were given

12 your work assignment appointing you temporary warden of the KP Dom by the

13 president of the executive committee. You were immediately escorted by

14 two men to the KP Dom where, instead of beginning your work, you were

15 given coffee and drink and sat and talked. And then you didn't do any

16 work, and yet you were not allowed to leave and had to spend the night

17 there?

18 A. Precisely. All that you said is right, except that I think that

19 they perhaps somehow sensed my response, that I was not happy about this

20 appointment, and that was why -- perhaps why they wouldn't allow me to

21 leave the KP Dom that evening, that I could come out only the next morning

22 after they had their meeting with Mr. Mladjenovic, in my judgement.

23 Q. Let's discuss your unhappiness with your appointment. When you

24 received your appointment from Mr. Mladjenovic, how did you feel?

25 A. Had I known at that moment that in the KP Dom there were detained

Page 7840

1 persons, I claim --

2 Q. That's not the question, that's not the question. The question is

3 when you received the appointment from Mr. Mladjenovic at the high school,

4 how did you feel at that moment? What was your reaction?

5 A. Well, how else could I react but take up the paper offered me?

6 And they then immediately took me and put me in the car.

7 Q. Were you unhappy already at that point with your appointment, or

8 were you satisfied, as much as you could be when you've been told to do

9 something?

10 A. I was completely unhappy at that moment and at any such moment,

11 because my house had burnt down at that time, and that was a much greater

12 misfortune for me, to have my house burn down completely. There was no

13 happiness there, and there could be no happiness. Only unhappiness.

14 Q. So even before you got your assignment, you were unhappy because

15 of your house; right?

16 A. Well, one can be happy when everything -- that all that he's

17 earned during 15 years of life burns down. I'm still unhappy about this,

18 let alone that time.

19 Q. When you received your assignment, isn't it true that you were

20 relieved that you weren't sent to the front line and that you'd get to

21 stay in Foca with your family?

22 A. No. No, there was no relief. Perhaps I would have been the

23 happiest had they sent me somewhere from where there would be no return.

24 Q. So when you received this assignment, on top of your house being

25 burned, this was something else that you were unhappy about, simply being

Page 7841

1 assigned to that position, not knowing anything about it?

2 A. I was unhappy that that whole unfortunate armed conflict had

3 happened and I was unhappy about the house. And it was one misfortune

4 after the other. There was a string of misfortunes and that's what

5 usually happens.

6 Q. I'm trying to go through the string of misfortunes that day, and

7 please try to follow. You've told us about your house, and we discussed

8 your assignment by Mladjenovic. And I take it that you were not happy to

9 receive the assignment. You were also taken by two men to the KP Dom, and

10 I take it from the statement that you gave to investigators that you felt

11 like a prisoner, that you were unhappy with that; right? All three of

12 those things together, you were already unhappy.

13 A. You insist on this without me knowing. How many times can I

14 repeat this over and over again? Yes, that was another thing that made me

15 unhappy.

16 Q. So the fact that you saw the Muslims being detained there was not

17 the only reason that you sought to be removed, as you claim; right?

18 A. That was a very big reason, and how big.

19 Q. In fact, when you spoke to your friend Zarko Vukovic about your

20 unhappiness with your assignment and he had to comfort you, it was -- you

21 complained about the excessive workload, not about the detention of

22 Muslims; isn't that right?

23 A. Although I was not made responsible for those people, there was

24 also this misfortune and very hard work and toil, because to sit, talk

25 with these people, partake of drinks, be their children's godfather one

Page 7842

1 day and then the next day see them there, that is very hard.

2 Q. But you never told Zarko Vukovic that you disagreed with the fact

3 that the Muslims were being detained there at the KP Dom, did you?

4 A. No, that is not right. I said that, too, not only to Zarko

5 Vukovic, but to many others with whom I talked about these matters.

6 Q. When you talked about these matters, you never said you didn't

7 like the fact that the Muslims were being detained at the KP Dom, did

8 you?

9 A. Excuse me, on the basis of what do you claim this?

10 Q. Sir, did any of the witnesses who testified on your behalf ever

11 mention that you told them that you were unhappy with the fact that

12 Muslims were being detained there?

13 A. I do not remember what the witnesses testified. But I am positive

14 there were such conversations, that I was not happy about their being

15 detained at the KP Dom, that I felt it very hard. And if I may, during my

16 interview with the gentleman from the OTP, I said, "Well, had anyone asked

17 my opinion, I would have let them all go home to their families."

18 Q. You made that statement because you knew that there was no legal

19 basis whatsoever for those Muslims to be detained in the KP Dom; isn't

20 that right?

21 A. Not only whether there was or was not a legal basis, because it's

22 up to the law and regulation to see if there is a basis for that or not

23 , because why else would there be law and justice? And whether somebody

24 is guilty or not, whether I'm guilty or not, let it be established on the

25 basis of law and justice.

Page 7843













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7844

1 Q. Sir, on the very first day when you were brought to the KP Dom,

2 you already saw Muslim detainees, and you asked why were they there, and

3 the answer you got was, "Because they're Muslim." Isn't that right?

4 A. No, that is not how it was.

5 Q. What was the reason you were given for why they were there?

6 A. All they told me was that they had been brought in for the time

7 being.

8 Q. You told us yesterday --

9 A. Because -- because of the armed conflicts in the territory of the

10 municipality of Foca.

11 Q. You told us yesterday very specifically about the conversation you

12 had when you were brought to the censorship room in the KP Dom, and first

13 you asked whether you were detained and the answer you got was no; then

14 you asked why were those people there, and the answer was, "They're

15 Muslim." Are you denying that? Are you now changing your story?

16 A. I don't think I said that they had been detained because they were

17 Muslims, but that -- there were detained Muslims in the compound. Not

18 that they were detained because they were Muslims. If you think I said

19 that, something must have been wrong with the interpretation or with my

20 thinking yesterday and today. I said there were detained Muslim there --

21 or there are Muslims detained there.

22 Q. I'll read for the record the transcript citation from yesterday.

23 It's at page 7900 -- I'm sorry, 7595 at lines 19 and 20, and this is a

24 quote now: "And now, why were these people detained? And he said, `They

25 they are Muslims.'"

Page 7845

1 Are you saying that's not your testimony?

2 A. I say what I was thinking and what my question to them was. Who

3 are these people who are in the compound, walking around the compound, and

4 their answer was, "They are Muslims, because they had been detained." And

5 I cannot claim, and I cannot challenge what you are saying because there's

6 nobody to check that. But that they said, "Because they're Muslims," I

7 simply cannot believe they could have let such a sentence through both my

8 original teeth and my false teeth. Only, "They are Muslims."

9 Q. You stated just a few moments ago that you told investigators of

10 the OTP that if you had had the authority, you would have let the

11 detainees be released, in fact, within 24 hours, right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You would certainly never have released people within 24 hours who

14 were suspected of criminal activity, right? They would have to go through

15 the legal system, and they couldn't just be released, could they?

16 A. They also very nicely added and said, "There is justice, there is

17 law, and let everybody account for what he did Pursuant to that law."

18 Q. But I'm interested in the statement that you made and repeated

19 here, that if you had had the authority, you would have had these people

20 released immediately. My question to you is: If they were suspected of

21 criminal activity, you would not have them released immediately, would

22 you? That's what the legal system is for.

23 A. Well, excuse me. Logically if you follow this part of justice and

24 legality, and if you go through this legal system, you cannot release

25 somebody if it has been already proven in some way that he has done

Page 7846

1 something. Of course I couldn't release such a person, nor would I. And

2 I'd rather never interfere in other people's business and do anything like

3 that because who am I to do that?

4 Q. So you would only say that you would have these people released if

5 these were people who had not been suspected of any criminal activity,

6 right? These are totally innocent people, and that's why you said that

7 you would have had them released immediately.

8 A. Whether they were innocent or guilty I do not know, and that is

9 why one has the law to establish whether they are guilty or innocent. But

10 since this armed conflict happened overnight and that it happened in that

11 area where everybody was, well, in that case, I wasn't really aware of any

12 procedure had been conducted to establish who is guilty and who is not.

13 And I would release everybody because I didn't know if this procedure, if

14 the investigation and establishment of responsibility had been conducted

15 or not.

16 Q. You knew, in fact, that none of those procedures in place for

17 detaining these people legally were ever followed, isn't that true?

18 A. And that is why, excuse me, I begged and asked not to be there and

19 to be taken out of the KP Dom, of the KP Dom so as not to be held

20 responsible for it.

21 MS. KUO: Your Honours, it's 1.00.

22 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you. We'll adjourn and resume at 2.30.

23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 2.33 p.m.


Page 7847

1 JUDGE HUNT: Before we resume, I want to say something.

2 Mr. Krnojelac, I think I may have jumped too soon when I criticised you

3 before, and for that I apologise. When you were telling it, you only do

4 this and you only do that, and you sit there, I confess that I thought you

5 were speaking to counsel, but I, having looked back through the

6 transcript, realised that what you were attempting to do was to describe

7 your own experiences when you arrived at the KP Dom. So I'm sorry that I

8 did criticise you at that stage.

9 But I must explain to you that the criticism came from a sense of

10 mounting irritation at your constant criticism of counsel about the way

11 she's asking her questions, and that does not assist you. So just

12 remember that counsel is doing her job just as your counsel did his job.

13 Both of them are doing their best, and they're doing the job that they're

14 here for. So please don't criticise them. I'm sorry that I criticised

15 you then, but it was, as I say, from a sense of mounting irritation at the

16 way you were responding in cross-examination.

17 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I am

19 sorry.

20 MS. KUO:

21 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, on the day that you went to see Mr. Mladjenovic for

22 the first time after being brought to KP Dom, you said that you saw some

23 horrible things at the KP Dom, and when your counsel asked you on direct

24 examination to describe what the horrible things were, you pointed out the

25 physical damage at KP Dom, in your words, that it was proper wartime grave

Page 7848













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7849

1 with all the broken glass and furniture and things like that; right?

2 A. Yes. These terrible things in terms of that damage of the

3 property of KP Dom.

4 Q. Now, you described also your second meeting with Mr. Mladjenovic

5 at the end of April when you approached him again to complain that you

6 needed help to get the job done, and you said to him that you could not

7 put the KP Dom right if we have persons detained in the building. And you

8 meant detained in the prisoners' quarters, right, that you could not fix

9 up the prisoners' quarters if there were people in the way?

10 A. Most probably that as well, but I also meant that it could not be

11 fixed because there weren't the people who could repair the damaged KP

12 Dom. They were not there.

13 Q. At the time you made that complaint, which was the end of April,

14 the Muslim detainees were housed in the same prisoner quarters where they

15 remained throughout the time you were there; right?

16 A. They remained in the buildings where they were before I had come.

17 They had the same accommodation as persons who were serving their prison

18 sentences previously had.

19 Q. When you received your assignment at KP Dom, as you say, to clean

20 up and fix the physical premises, that included the prisoners' quarters;

21 right?

22 A. It was a reference to the overall property of the KP Dom, that is

23 to say, those buildings as well.

24 Q. So in the process of taking your initial inventory those first few

25 days, you had to enter the prisoners' quarters to see for yourself what

Page 7850

1 had to be fixed, didn't you?

2 A. Please, allow me to say that I was not taking an inventory. A

3 commission was established to take an inventory as to what was damaged,

4 what was destroyed, and generally speaking what the condition of the KP

5 Dom was. So I maintain that I did not go to those quarters, to those

6 rooms at that time, either.

7 Q. You're saying that you set about the task of deciding what had to

8 be fixed and how without setting foot in two of the main buildings in the

9 KP Dom?

10 A. I did not enter into any one of the buildings where detained

11 persons were.

12 Q. Could you tell us what the condition was of those prisoners'

13 quarters? Were windows destroyed, doors broken down, things like that?

14 A. Please, try to understand that only the external appearance of

15 these buildings had to be assessed. I did not go inside. I did not

16 assess the damage there. That's what the commission did. As for the

17 outside of the building, the facade, one could see bullet holes and

18 shrapnel holes and the windowpanes were broken on the windows, they were

19 broken.

20 Q. So you can't actually say what, if any, damage was done to the

21 inside of those prisoners' quarters by anybody who was at the KP Dom

22 before you arrived; right?

23 A. Since I did not go in, I cannot say that I saw that damage because

24 I did not see it.

25 Q. Sir, you headed and established the commission to assess the

Page 7851

1 damage, and certainly you reviewed the results of their inspections,

2 didn't you?

3 A. That could only be seen from the attached materials that they

4 provided, what they had reviewed, what they had written down, that was

5 accepted. And they wrote that there were damages there, too, on the

6 cupboards, on the doors, on some of the furniture that was there within

7 these premises.

8 Q. Were those things fixed by, let's say, the 10th of May?

9 A. I don't know at all whether they were fixed until the present day

10 because I never walked in and never saw whether it was fixed or not.

11 Q. Listen carefully to the question, sir. It's not about what you

12 saw, you've told us you didn't inside, but it's clear based on the

13 testimony of you and other defence witnesses that you're trying to

14 convince the Court that you were in charge of the physical part of the KP

15 Dom only. And so I'm asking you about your knowledge in that capacity.

16 What did you learn about any repairs that were done to the

17 prisoners' quarters as of the 10th of May?

18 A. I did not learn about any repairs that were done there or not

19 because by then these premises had already been rented to the military

20 command.

21 Q. I'm only asking you about before the 10th of May. Nothing was

22 repaired, is that what you're saying, before the 10th of May?

23 A. I don't know at all whether anything was repaired or not.

24 Q. You didn't take it upon yourself to find out before the premises

25 were rented out what condition they were in?

Page 7852

1 A. No. I did not take any action because I did not go in there and I

2 don't know in what condition the premises were.

3 Q. You keep going back to your not going inside. The question is not

4 about that. The question is about your alleged responsibility for the

5 physical premises. You've told us you were extremely busy those first few

6 days and that your only job was to fix up the premises, to assess the

7 damage, and so I'm just asking you, what was your assessment of the damage

8 and what was done to fix up the prisoners' quarters before it was handed

9 over to the military?

10 A. I have answered that I did not take any action with regard to

11 fixing anything or doing anything there in those quarters because that is

12 where detained persons were.

13 Q. Before those premises were handed over to the military -- let me

14 rephrase that. The premises were handed over to the military sometime

15 after you already started as the warden. In other words, the order

16 granting permission to the military was for May 10th. You had already

17 been there since April 18th. From April 18th till May 10th, you were

18 responsible for the physical premises of the prisoners' quarters, weren't

19 you? Not the military, you were; right?

20 A. Again, you are going to caution me saying that I'm not answering

21 your questions, but please, tell me what kind of answer you want me to

22 give, then. In such a short period of time, nothing else could have been

23 done by -- but what had been done. That is to say, I could not do

24 anything in those premises between the 18th of May and the day when that

25 was handed over to the military for their use.

Page 7853













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Page 7854

1 Q. So basically you handed over those premises in a damaged condition

2 to the military; right?

3 A. They were handed over to the military in about the same condition,

4 most probably, as they were in at the moment when I came.

5 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, when you went to speak to Mr. Mladjenovic in

6 addition to saying that it was difficult for you to do your job, you also

7 told him, "I do not want anyone saying the next day that I was in their

8 way or that I'm their superior." You were already worried then that you

9 might be blamed for having responsibility over the Muslim detainees; isn't

10 that right?

11 A. Excuse me, but I did not understand this question right.

12 Q. I read a portion of the transcript from yesterday, and we can ask

13 to have the con -- I can describe the context in greater detail if you

14 wish. But basically, you described how at the end of April you went to

15 see Mr. Mladjenovic to tell him that you weren't happy about being at the

16 KP Dom, and that those men were being detained in the KP Dom. And you

17 discussed how you talked about him -- talked with him about finding some

18 solution. You sought his advice, and you then further told

19 Mr. Mladjenovic, "I really cannot put the KP Dom right if we have persons

20 detained in the building, and I do not want anyone saying the next day

21 that I was in their way or that I'm their superior."

22 And I've understood it to mean that you were concerned that people

23 might try to blame you for what was happening to the Muslims at the KP

24 Dom. Am I correct about that?

25 A. I am not sure what I said yesterday. I can just tell you what I

Page 7855

1 think today, what I thought then. I was not pleased at all when I saw

2 people, my neighbours until then, the Muslims, at the KP Dom. I was not

3 pleased to see them there, or did I want to be the one who would be their

4 superior. That is why I asked to be withdrawn immediately.

5 Q. And Mr. Mladjenovic assured you, and again I'll quote from the

6 transcript and you can tell me if I've got it wrong, he said, "Well,

7 Milorad, this will all be resolved in a couple of days, but I'll try to

8 solve it all so that you have nothing to do with it."

9 A. Yes, that's right. That's the way it was put.

10 Q. Basically each time that you went to speak to Mr. Mladjenovic, at

11 the end of the conversation you agreed to stay; right? He never

12 threatened you; you agreed.

13 A. He never threatened me. He always said that I could complete the

14 task that I was given and that there was no need -- I mean, there was no

15 one else at that moment for that position except for me, and he gave me

16 orders to take that position and that I would certainly carry out the

17 assignment that he gave me.

18 So in all these cases, I really had to stay on.

19 Q. You never volunteered to take a different position and say, "I

20 simply can't do this out of my conscience," did you?

21 A. Gentlemen, nothing else was ever offered to me because later when

22 I was discharged, I asked to be a teacher, and they wouldn't let me. So

23 from the day when they assigned me to this duty, nobody ever gave me the

24 possibility to choose or to do something else, rather than be on that

25 position where I had been assigned. I kept hoping that I was appointed

Page 7856

1 temporary warden, that that would be a short-term thing, that somebody

2 else would be appointed permanent warden. It never crossed my mind that

3 it could be Milorad Krnojelac who would be appointed warden of the KP Dom

4 and head of the Drina Economic Unit.

5 Q. You never offered to take some other position. "Please give me

6 some other position other than this one because I can't stand having to

7 see the Muslims detained." You never offered that, did you?

8 A. Please, don't assert that when I told you a few minutes ago that I

9 did ask for that. I kept saying, "Please let me go to the school." I

10 always kept asking to go to the school. In those days I also asked to go

11 to the school, and then I always got the same answer: "There's no vacancy

12 for a math teacher now." I kept asking, but to no avail.

13 Q. When a vacancy for a math teacher arose, it didn't go to you, did

14 it? It went to someone else.

15 A. That vacancy appeared when Mr. Vukovic was transferred, but I

16 didn't know about that, and I didn't get it. He got it; I didn't.

17 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, do you know Veselin Cancar, an economist and chief

18 of accounting at the Perucica company in Foca?

19 A. I know Mr. Cancar by sight, but it's not that we were any special

20 kind of friends or something. We did say hello to each other.

21 Q. And you're aware that at the outbreak of the war, Miro Stanic and

22 Slavko Todovic were members of the Crisis Staff, tried to take him into

23 becoming the warden of KP Dom before you were appointed, and he refused

24 and left Foca. Are you aware of that?

25 A. Believe me that I'm not aware of that, not at all. This is the

Page 7857

1 first time I hear about it.

2 Q. And you never heard that as a result of him refusing that

3 assignment, when he returned to Foca, he was sent to be a quarter master

4 in the field doing combat duty? Are you aware of that?

5 A. I'm not aware of that, either, where he was or what he did.

6 Q. You were never threatened with any specific consequence if you

7 asked to have a different assignment or if you left Foca to avoid having

8 to serve this assignment; right?

9 A. I told you that I asked. They did not threaten me, but they

10 didn't meet my request, either. I had requested to be transferred to a

11 school because the best thing is to do one's own job, what one had studied

12 for.

13 Q. During the time that you were travelling so frequently to Serbia

14 and Montenegro, you could have escaped Foca and just stayed away if you

15 really wanted to avoid being the KP Dom warden; isn't that right?

16 A. Well, I ran away from my own apartment and I became a displaced

17 person or a refugee at a hotel, and had I fled from Foca I would have been

18 a refugee somewhere. And how could I flee from my family, go somewhere

19 else, because Bosnia-Herzegovina and Foca are mine, just like of all the

20 other citizens. That's what I think.

21 Q. You're aware that Dr. Cedo Dragovic didn't like what he saw at the

22 KP Dom regarding the Muslim detainees and he fled Foca in September of

23 1992; isn't that right?

24 A. Gentlemen, I don't know why Mr. Dragovic left Foca and whether he

25 fled, because if he went with his family and never returned again, that

Page 7858













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Page 7859

1 meant that he as a physician could find a position for himself in some

2 other republic or some other state, and he could have worked there. That

3 was allowed in the previous one-party system, too, that you could move

4 from one place to another if you found a better job. So I don't know why

5 he fled, and whether he saw something that he was not supposed to see or

6 whether he saw -- or rather, whether it is because of that that he fled,

7 or was it that he found a job elsewhere and went somewhere with his

8 family and remained there because I am not aware of his returning to

9 Foca.

10 Q. But in other words, you knew that it was a possibility for you to

11 take your family, in this case your wife because your sons were already

12 grown, but certainly to leave the territory so that you wouldn't have to

13 serve if your conscience was bothered so much?

14 A. In this other country, I didn't even have a tent to put up, let

15 alone flee and stay in a field. I had my house in Foca, and I had a place

16 of my own in Foca, and I thought that I was supposed to stay where I had

17 been when the armed conflict broke out, too.

18 Q. Aside from your conversations with Mr. Mladjenovic, you never

19 filed a formal request to be removed from your position, did you?

20 A. It is not only that I asked to be replaced and that I asked

21 Mr. Mladjenovic only. I asked the Minister of Justice for that once;

22 however, I never filed a written request until June 1993 when I was

23 already exhausted from every point of view due to my own problems and due

24 to work at the KP Dom.

25 Q. You had frequent contact with the Minister of Justice; is that

Page 7860

1 right?

2 A. No way, no way. How could I? Time was required and everything

3 else. It was only when he convened us for a meeting that I would see

4 him. No, never apart from that.

5 Q. So in order to convey any sort of request to him, you'd actually

6 have to write it out. And you didn't do that until more than a year

7 later, in June of 1993; right?

8 A. Correct, but I did so orally. And he always said to me, "Milorad,

9 really, I see no reason to get a replacement for you because a replacement

10 is given only to those who had not carried out the assignment that they

11 had been given." And as far as I know, at the KP Dom in terms of repairs

12 and starting up production, you have done everything and even more than we

13 had expected you to do."

14 Q. Wasn't it obvious to you, Mr. Krnojelac, that the way to get out

15 of your position then was to do a less-than-stellar job? That was the sure

16 way to get yourself removed from that office, wasn't it?

17 A. A teacher who worked for 30 years was used to carrying out his

18 assignments, and I took this assignment the same way, and I did it,

19 because a man of my age and with the habits I acquired from an early age,

20 from my childhood, I said that I came from a poor family where everything

21 was done right and on time, and after that I could not just change

22 overnight and become a loiterer or a thief or a person who would not carry

23 out his work assignments. I cannot change overnight like you can change a

24 set of pajamas.

25 Q. Sir, when you filed your request, your formal request with the

Page 7861

1 Minister of Justice in June of 1993, again, it was not because of your

2 opposition to the presence of the Muslim detainees, but rather because you

3 said you were then being forced to make decisions about who would be sent

4 to the front line and who would remain at the KP Dom doing their work

5 obligations; isn't that right?

6 A. Excuse me, please, I do not know, when you say a legal, formal. I

7 submitted a written application and explained why I was doing it, for the

8 generator and those people, because I was supposed to assign men whom I

9 needed badly in my business unit, so I had to assign the head of the metal

10 working, for the furniture factory, to go to the front line, and to leave

11 the factory without those bosses, no, I couldn't accept that. I could not

12 take upon -- take this responsibility upon myself, so I said no, and I

13 wrote to the ministry, I submitted my resignation, and explained why I was

14 doing that, and I was lucky enough that it was immediately taken into

15 consideration.

16 Q. In other words, the moment that you asked to be removed from your

17 position, that request was granted; right? In your words, "immediately."

18 A. Well, they couldn't even get it immediately because I wrote it

19 sometime in June, and in July it was resolved. Well, I suppose they

20 sympathised, especially, I think, the Minister, Mr. Rosic, when I last

21 spoke to him, apart from saying stay on, I somehow sensed in those words

22 of his that he understood, that he'd understood that, and perhaps they

23 needed more time. Perhaps they wanted -- before the proper work started,

24 perhaps they needed people who had higher skills, because I had a

25 university diploma, and that job did require indeed a university diploma

Page 7862

1 Q. In your request to the Minister of Justice at that time, you

2 never stated your opposition to the fact that the Muslims were there. The

3 only reason you gave for wanting to leave the KP Dom as warden was that

4 you didn't wish to send people to the front line where they could have

5 gotten killed. That was the reason you gave; right?

6 A. I didn't state as a reason the detained persons, simply because

7 the minister knew that it was under the army, and all that I said

8 yesterday. That is, I suppose he knew that those people were responsible

9 for it, and that is why I listed that other reason, that is the generator

10 which could not be repaired without papers which could only be purchased

11 abroad, at least, that is what I had learned from experts; and that people

12 who were working in different businesses should be sent away. Whether

13 they were sent after that or not, I don't know.

14 Q. This alleged reason that you gave the Minister of Justice, this

15 was not something that you were -- that was new to you; right? You were

16 already in a position before that time of requesting that people be

17 brought to the KP Dom instead of the front line. You did that with

18 Mr. Krsmanovic and with the man who fixed the boiler. Isn't that right?

19 A. Excuse me, could you please clarify this question for me. I don't

20 really quite get it.

21 Q. You've told us that the reason you gave the Minister of Justice

22 for wanting to leave your position of warden was because suddenly you were

23 being given the responsibility of deciding who would go to the front line

24 where they could be killed, and who would remain working at the KP Dom,

25 and that this responsibility was too great. You didn't want it.

Page 7863













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Page 7864

1 My question to you is, isn't it a fact that you were already,

2 before June of 1993, making those decisions? And I gave you as an example

3 what we discussed this morning, the driver and the man who fixed the

4 boiler room whom you were able to call in from the front line through

5 Mr. Mladjenovic.

6 A. As regards Mr. Krsmanovic and Mr. Pavlovic, I talked with

7 Mladjenovic and they came. But not these people -- I didn't send people

8 who were part of security, and it wasn't those men who were to be sent to

9 the front. It was people who had been assigned a labour duty in the

10 furniture factory, metalworking shop, accountancy, these administration

11 things. I was to send those men to the front line, that is, make my

12 choice amongst them, and I thought that it wasn't my job and that it was

13 up to the Ministry of Defence rather than a warden or manager of an

14 economic unit of the KP Dom.

15 Q. When you claimed that you wrote to the Minister of Justice about

16 this new assignment that you were being given, you didn't offer -- or you

17 didn't propose that you not be given that responsibility; right? You

18 proposed that you be removed completely as warden.

19 A. Asking to be relieved because of all these problems, because I

20 simply couldn't lift my head with all this work. And then they asked me

21 to send those men with whom I had managed to complete and fulfill tasks

22 assigned to me, so I did apply for the full relief.

23 Q. Mr. Krnojelac you in your Defence have given us a copy of the

24 decision of the Ministry of Justice removing you as warden, but could you

25 tell us, please, why you don't have a copy of your request to the Minister

Page 7865

1 asking to be removed?

2 A. I dare not repeat the word that I have used so far because of the

3 Honourable Court, but how can I have this copy if I was arrested on my way

4 between the school and my flat? I therefore have no documents on me. And

5 why doesn't the Defence have it, why couldn't they find it? That is

6 something that I cannot know. I cannot be responsible for that. I've

7 been here for 1.111 days, and after 1.111 days, you again ask me whether I

8 plead guilty or not guilty, after all that time.

9 Q. Sir, you certainly kept a copy of this alleged request; right?

10 A. Had I even kept it and I do not know where it could be because my

11 wife had to move out of that flat and God knows whether she found it and

12 if she found it and whether she ever looked for it, because in the year

13 2000, she moved from that temporary accommodation to our house which

14 somehow was facilitated, refurbished, and so she moved -- she had to move

15 over there from that temporary accommodation.

16 Q. By the time your wife had to move from the apartment in the year

17 2000, you had already been in custody for almost or more than two years.

18 And during that time, you never told her where she could find this very

19 important document? You certainly were able to communicate with her, or

20 at least your Defence lawyers could have, as well; right?

21 A. I had a hundred of other problems to discuss with my wife. And

22 believe me, I do not remember ever telling it to her or discussing it with

23 her because in a way, I thought that it was a Defence duty, and I never

24 wanted to talk about this thing, about all these things that concern me,

25 apart from the state of my health. But we never discussed the case. Not

Page 7866

1 even the contents of the statements.

2 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not understand,

3 and I should like to see a clarification. We tendered it as an exhibit.

4 Is it that the Prosecutor is challenging the authenticity of the document?

5 That is my only question. Is this what the Prosecution is saying, or what

6 is it?

7 JUDGE HUNT: Are you suggesting that you tendered the request for

8 the letter, or the request by your client? That's all she's asking

9 about. She's not challenging the authenticity of the reply. She's

10 asking, "Why haven't you produced the request?" That's all. There's no

11 other way you could possibly read that.

12 That is so, is it not, Ms. Kuo?

13 MS. KUO: That's true, Your Honour.


15 MS. KUO:

16 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, your sons and other family members were still in

17 Foca, were very deeply involved in preparing your Defence, gathering

18 witnesses, tracking down documents, indeed, coming to testify as well.

19 Are you saying that you never told anybody where they would locate a copy

20 of this request that you sent to the Ministry of Justice?

21 A. How could I when I do not know where it could be located? I know

22 who it was addressed to, but where one could find it, I really don't

23 know. I'm sorry.

24 Q. The document which has been tendered into evidence as D78 is the

25 decision by the minister of justice dismissing you from duty as warden,

Page 7867

1 and it's dated the 1st of July, 1993, in Pale. But I draw your attention

2 to another exhibit which is ID D75, and this is a certificate that was

3 produced by your Defence counsel from the Ministry of Defence that states

4 that they've looked through their records as of 11 January 2000, and that

5 you remained in your position as -- here it says manager --

6 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

7 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

8 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I've started to stand up

9 quite frequently. I didn't do it during the examination-in-chief, but I

10 wonder, can we show -- can we refer to the certificate as it was

11 challenged and not admitted into evidence and according to the OTP it is

12 merely a statement. If the OTP interprets the certificate as a statement,

13 then the OTP -- then the Prosecutor cannot show this to the accused

14 because the person who came here made a statement, gave a statement,

15 underwent cross-examination.

16 MS. KUO: Your Honour it's true that this document was not entered

17 into evidence.

18 JUDGE HUNT: That's right, it was not. And indeed, we said that

19 if the original letters or copies of them were produced, that would be a

20 different matter. We would exercise our discretion to admit them.

21 MS. KUO: Yes, and that's why I'm not showing this witness the

22 document I'm asking him whether he agrees with the content. There's a

23 different date on this document, and I wish to put to the witness --

24 JUDGE HUNT: This is a very recent document. It was not a

25 contemporaneous record.

Page 7868













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14 and French transcript.












Page 7869

1 MS. KUO: That's correct.

2 JUDGE HUNT: That's the problem with it. That's why we said to

3 Mr. Bakrac that it had so little weight that we would not exercise their

4 discretion to admit it notwithstanding that it hadn't complied with all

5 the rules. But I am not sure why you are now seeking to get the contents

6 of that document into evidence.

7 MS. KUO: I'm not seeking to get the contents in, I'm putting the

8 question the witness whether he knows why somebody else might think that

9 the date was the 17th of July rather than the 1st of July because he

10 himself testified that he was present for several days in July so there's

11 some ambiguity about when his removal from office actually took effect.

12 And he can simply explain it.

13 JUDGE HUNT: I'm not sure that you can ask him why somebody else

14 might have thought something, and if an objection is taken to it, I think

15 that this would not be admissible unless you can explain it to me better

16 than you have.

17 MS. KUO: That's fine.

18 JUDGE HUNT: What you're really asking him is why did somebody

19 else think this?

20 MS. KUO: Yes.

21 JUDGE HUNT: Well --

22 MS. KUO: Because it's in an official capacity and if he's told us

23 that he was present at the KP Dom even after the July 1st date, then there

24 has to be some -- there's possibly some explanation for --

25 JUDGE HUNT: But Ms. Kuo what is his answer to be, that the

Page 7870

1 official who signed that certificate is lying or that he misread the

2 documents? He's only guessing. I don't see, even though he is the party

3 to the proceedings, how what his estimate or his guess will do for us, on

4 his credit or on the issue or on anything.

5 MS. KUO: Okay. I'll ask it a different way then, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE HUNT: That would be a very good idea.

7 MS. KUO:

8 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, you told us that you were still working at the KP

9 Dom in an unchanged capacity even after the 1st of July, 1993. You didn't

10 actually leave your position as warden until after the 17th of 1993; isn't

11 that right?

12 A. I did not leave because I wanted to finish whatever unfinished

13 business there was, to sign whatever there was to sign in the

14 administration, and bring all these jobs to an end. And I did not get the

15 disposition on the 1st of July. I only knew that I had been dismissed.

16 And there were cases where I had to sign whatever there was so that

17 nobody would say, "Well, the manager, the director, was absent, the warden

18 was absent." I wanted to resolve everything and leave everything behind

19 in good order.

20 And when I asked -- said, "Gentlemen, is there a need for a

21 written application, for an analysis --" well, if you're bored with what

22 I'm telling you, I shall stop.

23 Q. I haven't made any indication that you should stop,

24 Mr. Krnojelac.

25 A. Thank you. Then I asked if we should do it in writing, and

Page 7871

1 Mr. Tesevic said, "No, you didn't get anything from them in writing so

2 therefore I do not have to take over anything from you in writing

3 either."

4 Q. Basically, even after the 1st of July, 1993, you were signing

5 documents in your official capacity as the warden or director of KP Dom;

6 right? That's what you've just told us.

7 A. Only what had been done by the 1st of July, but perhaps not fully

8 ascertained, certified with a signature. So I just wanted to see if there

9 was anything, for instance, something had been started in the factory,

10 what had they completed, I simply wanted to know the various stages of

11 completion of individual stages of work so that simply one couldn't

12 say afterwards, "Well, this wasn't done, and this had been done, this

13 hadn't been done," and the same thing was done at the farm. And

14 unfortunately that is how all these things were settled and I was

15 relieved.

16 Q. You didn't actually receive the decision on termination of your

17 employment until the end of July 1993; right?

18 A. I think I received it sometime toward the end. I can't really

19 remember the date, but it was the latter half of July.

20 Q. Until that point, you continued to act as if you were still

21 warden, signing papers, coming to work, continuing to supervise people;

22 right? Because no one had replaced you at that point.

23 A. Yes. Well, that time was the same as before. You mentioned a

24 word, "supervision," but there was no need for me to supervise anybody

25 because these people, these people were very decent when it came to their

Page 7872

1 work so that I had no problems with it at all.

2 Q. I'm going to rephrase that. What you did during the month of July

3 was no different from what you did in the earlier months in terms of your

4 job at the KP Dom; right?

5 A. No, there was no difference.

6 Q. Now, after you left the KP Dom, the only consequence you suffered

7 was that you didn't have a job for a year. You weren't kicked out of your

8 apartment; your wife didn't lose her job. Everything stayed the same

9 except you didn't have a job; right?

10 A. I didn't have a job. But it wasn't my flat, it was a temporary

11 use of somebody else's flat.

12 Q. You weren't kicked out. You were allowed to live there during

13 this time.

14 A. This flat that was given us for use was still in use.

15 Q. Part of the reason why it took more than a year for you to get

16 your position back at the elementary school, this time as headmaster, was

17 because you were waiting for the right job; right? You had been offered

18 the position at the school several months earlier and you refused it.

19 A. No, I'm sorry, misinformation. I was never, ever offered a job

20 that I had asked for to teach mathematics. I was offered, rather, the

21 post of a principal and I wouldn't take it, because Mr. Hadzic, who was

22 the principal of the Veselin Maslesa school, was to be retired, to be

23 pensioned off, and they offered me that job sometime in June or maybe

24 July. But I said I didn't want it. But later on, afterwards, it was take

25 it or leave it, and therefore I had to shrug my shoulders and take up the

Page 7873













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Page 7874

1 job.

2 Q. And you began working in that job on the 9th of September, 1994;

3 right?

4 A. Yes, September 1994.

5 Q. September 9th, 1994.

6 A. I think so. I'm not sure. I can't -- I hope you'll understand.

7 I mean, to remember every date. I think so, I think it was September 1994

8 that I became the principal of the Veselin Maslesa school, another decree,

9 order.

10 MS. KUO: With the assistance of the usher, I'd like to have the

11 witness shown Exhibit P3. Under item 3, which is Mr. Krnojelac himself,

12 I'd like to draw the witness's attention to the termination date listed.

13 Q. Yesterday, during your direct examination, your lawyer showed you

14 this document, and you objected to the completion date of your work

15 obligation here which shows the 8th of September, 1994, because you

16 weren't at the KP Dom that entire time. But my question to you is,

17 doesn't the fact that this reflects the 8th of September, 1994 mean that

18 you received full credit for having done your work obligation, even during

19 the time that you were not working, so that this was -- that you received

20 full credit for social security purposes?

21 A. If I may, I should like, please, to go back to the disposition of

22 the 1st of July, 1993. In other words, as of the 1st of July, 1994

23 onward, I was not considered, that is on my part, I did not consider

24 myself an employee of the penitentiary, reformatory, in Foca. From the

25 1st of July, 1993, I did not consider myself a member of its staff. But

Page 7875

1 this date, they must have the 8th of September, 1994. That is what I'm

2 referring to.

3 Q. The fact that that document reflects that date means that you got

4 full credit for social security purposes, for being listed as work

5 obligation at the KP Dom; right? That worked to your benefit, to have

6 that date; right? No one is alleging that you were at the KP Dom up to

7 that date, but the fact that that document shows that date means that you

8 got full credit. You didn't even miss a day in counting the days you

9 worked for social security purposes.

10 A. That's why I wanted to explain it, if you allow me. From the 1st

11 of July, 1993, I do not consider myself an employee of the KP Dom. But

12 because of the social security and because they couldn't find another job

13 for me, that is, in all likelihood, for the social security purposes that

14 they kept me on the list. But I can tell you that I do not know whether

15 during this period of time I ever received a parcel, let alone a salary,

16 because they were not getting any. There was no money.

17 So this is explainable only by the social security, no other

18 benefit, nothing else. And I know that Minister Rosic, who received me at

19 Brioni, was surprised that they had failed to find a job for me in

20 teaching or something else because I said, "Give me some job, whatever

21 job, just something that I can do so that I could perform certain tasks."

22 And then what happened, happened in 1994. In September, they appointed me

23 the principal of a school.

24 Q. Your appointment as principal of the elementary school, was that

25 by the Ministry of Defence?

Page 7876

1 A. I said that I was not involved in a public competition. I said

2 that this came from the Ministry of Primary Education, the Ministry of

3 Education, from Banja Luka. They appointed principals of primary schools.

4 Q. But when you were looking for a job or were waiting for a job back

5 at the school, you didn't ask the Ministry of Education for a job. You

6 were approaching the Ministry of Justice, weren't you?

7 A. Excuse me, could you please repeat that question?

8 Q. When you left as warden, you wished to have a job teaching again,

9 right, in the school?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. And the ministry that made those appointments was the Ministry of

12 Education; right?

13 A. Yes. In Banja Luka.

14 Q. But you were contacting the Ministry of Justice to ask about

15 getting a new job; right? You contacted the Justice Ministry repeatedly,

16 not the Ministry of Education.

17 A. I asked the Ministry of Justice to intervene for a position to be

18 found for me. There was also an official in the municipality itself, the

19 municipality of Foca, who -- and also at the same time the executive

20 committee could have made a proposal to the Ministry of Education to

21 appoint Milorad Krnojelac principal -- appoint him principal of an

22 elementary school, or not only Milorad Krnojelac, but anybody else.

23 Again, it went through the municipality who would be principal of a

24 school. But then that would go to the Ministry of Education.

25 Q. You were fully anticipating a job back in the school because at

Page 7877

1 the time that you were dismissed, you were promised a new post within the

2 state organs of the Foca municipality; right? Or within the primary

3 education organisation. You were already promised that kind of position;

4 isn't that right?

5 A. I asked, and they said, "It will happen, it will happen." However

6 since there was not a single vacancy for a mathematics teacher, then they

7 gave me what they gave me. Mr. Mladjenovic's last sentence was, "Take it

8 or leave it." What else could I do but accept?

9 MS. KUO: I'd like to show the witness, with the assistance of the

10 usher, Exhibit 79.

11 Q. This is a letter of the 3rd of June, 1994, addressed to the

12 Srbinje Municipal Assembly, signed by the Minister of Justice, and I draw

13 your attention to the third paragraph. It makes reference to a meeting at

14 which a new warden deputy and assistants were appointed, and it makes

15 reference to the outgoing warden, Milorad Krnojelac.

16 I'll read it and you can just follow it along on your copy, Mr.

17 Krnojelac.

18 "At a meeting held to discuss solutions to personnel-related

19 problems attended by the president of the municipality, the chairman of

20 the executive committee, and the SDS president at whose disposal and with

21 whose approval a new warden, his deputy, and assistants were appointed, it

22 was decided that the outgoing warden, Milorad Krnojelac, would be

23 transferred to a new post within the state organs of Srbinje, formerly

24 called Foca, or within the primary education work organisation."

25 And then it goes on to say that the problem has not yet been

Page 7878

1 solved and that you have contacted the Ministry of Justice on several

2 occasions to find out your status.

3 Based on this letter, it's clear that the president of the SDS had

4 some say in the fact that you would be transferred to another position

5 within the municipality, indeed, in education; right?

6 JUDGE HUNT: Yes, Mr. Bakrac.

7 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what was said was not

8 correct. The text clearly shows that --

9 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, please.

10 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] At the proposal --

11 JUDGE HUNT: Please, Mr. Bakrac. Are you saying that it has been

12 wrongly quoted by counsel?

13 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No. Counsel correctly read it out,

14 but there was a misquote in the question, that it was at the proposal of

15 the SDS that this was carried out in respect of Milorad Krnojelac. The

16 SDS proposal was with respect of the new warden, his deputy, and

17 assistants, not Milorad Krnojelac. Could counsel please look at the text

18 once again. Milorad Krnojelac's issue was not resolved at the proposal of

19 the SDS. The text clearly states that.

20 JUDGE HUNT: I think that that's a very argumentative matter,

21 Mr. Bakrac. It depends on how you interpret that third paragraph. But it

22 was decided by somebody, including the SDS president, that Mr. Krnojelac

23 would be transferred to a new post within the state organs of Srbinje or

24 within the primary education work organisation. The question was: It's

25 clear that the president of the SDS had some say in the fact that you

Page 7879

1 would be transferred to another position within the municipality.

2 Why is that not a fair interpretation of the letter? It may be

3 right or it might be wrong, but it's certainly a fair interpretation of

4 it.

5 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if a member of the SDS

6 had the main say in this -- I mean, I fully agree with what you said, Your

7 Honour, with your interpretation. But if the text is quoted, then I

8 accept, of course, that the -- I mean, I accept that the Prosecutor has

9 the right to put leading questions as well. However, in terms of quoting

10 the text, one cannot say that the representative of the SDS had the main

11 say in this, because then that is not a correct interpretation of the

12 quotation that was given.

13 JUDGE HUNT: The question was, "some say," not "the main say."

14 It's at page 94, line 21, "some say." I'm afraid you've placed the wrong

15 interpretation of the question.

16 MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, I see now that it says "some

17 say." It seemed to me that the focus was on the president of the SDS,

18 that had the main say. That is why I reacted in haste. I see the

19 transcript now, and therefore I withdraw my objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE HUNT: More haste means less speed usually, Mr. Bakrac, but

21 thank you.

22 You proceed, Ms. Kuo.

23 MS. KUO:

24 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, among the people who made the decision that you

25 would be guaranteed a position within the municipality of Foca was the SDS

Page 7880

1 president; right?

2 A. According to what you have shown to me just now, that's the way it

3 looks because they had a joint meeting. But I certainly never went to see

4 the president of the SDS. I again went to see the president of the

5 executive committee, the same one who ordered me to go to the KP Dom. As

6 for this gentleman, the president of the SDS, I never went to see him, nor

7 would I ever have gone to see him in respect of my work, because I would

8 not want a party official to appoint me to a job, even if I were to remain

9 jobless.

10 Q. Could you tell us at the time that this letter is dated, who the

11 president of the municipality was? Or perhaps I should be more specific.

12 It seems to me that the time of this meeting was when you were dismissed,

13 so that would be in 1993. Could you tell us who the president of the

14 municipality was at that time who would have attended this meeting

15 referred to?

16 A. I'm not sure, but I seem to remember, but I'm really not sure. I

17 think it was Mr. Cancar at that time, but I'm not sure. Believe me, I'm

18 not. And I wouldn't want -- as far as I can remember, Petko Cancar was

19 president of the municipality.

20 Q. And we saw his name earlier when we reviewed the Crisis Staff

21 members; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was Mr. Mladjenovic still chairman of the executive committee?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who was president of the SDS?

Page 7881

1 A. Believe me, I don't know whether there were any elections in the

2 meantime. I guess it was the same person, Miro Stanic. I'm not sure.

3 Unless there were some elections in between, but it could have been Miro

4 Stanic. I mean, I'm not sure about that, either.

5 Q. And Miro Stanic --

6 A. Stanic, yes.

7 Q. -- was also on the list of Crisis Staff members that we reviewed

8 this morning; right? In fact, he was listed number one on that list?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. KUO: Thank you, we don't need this document, any more.

11 Q. Mr. Krnojelac, when you said you arrived at the KP Dom, you saw

12 members of the White Eagles. You described them as being about 20 people

13 in a mixture of civilian and military clothes. Your son testified that

14 the White Eagles had a reputation for cruelty, and that they were so

15 notorious and dangerous that he feared for your safety, and specifically

16 asked his commander if he could be your body guard at the KP Dom every

17 single day; is that right? You agree with that, the description that

18 your son gave?

19 A. By your leave, I found out that this unit was from Uzice. Whether

20 they belonged to the White Eagles, I don't know. My son, being a body

21 guard, I couldn't accept that. But that he was with me and he was most

22 probably afraid in terms of my own safety and security, I allow for that

23 possibility. But no, not as body guard. No. I personally did not

24 perceive him that way. And it is possible that he had fears for my own

25 safety and that he requested to be with me.

Page 7882

1 Q. You discussed that with him; right? Surely you know the reasons

2 he gave for wanting to be by your side every day.

3 A. Simply, he asked his commanding officer for that so that he would

4 be by my side, so that he would be, in a way, during these first days,

5 that he would feel safer as far as his father was concerned. Maybe he

6 thought that there was some danger involved. Maybe he knew more than I

7 did. Maybe more than I could have noticed, because I cannot dispute his

8 feeling, his feeling of devotion towards me. I know that he is very

9 devoted to both of his parents. Perhaps more than any one of our other

10 sons. Maybe because he was the youngest, but that is the truth.

11 Q. You've said "maybe" a lot to describe how your son felt. Didn't

12 you discuss this with him before you agreed that he should go with you

13 every day to KP Dom? Didn't he tell you what his concerns were?

14 A. Well, it's not that he told me anything special, but he was there

15 because he had his own car, and then he could also drive me there and

16 drive me back. And perhaps in a way after the burned house and everything

17 else, perhaps he would have in that way contributed to my own feeling of

18 balance. Perhaps he was afraid for me from that point of view, too,

19 because I was still upset. I feel sorry about this until the present

20 day. So it is probably for these reasons of safety that he did for me

21 what he did. At any rate, I always welcomed it because when you see your

22 own by your side and when you need to go somewhere, and then he opens the

23 door for you and he appreciates you and honours you as a parent, and my

24 great thanks go to him, although he suffered what he suffered.

25 Q. So it was nice for you to have him by your side those few days;

Page 7883

1 right?

2 A. Well, it was different than if I had been isolated, although I had

3 visitors and people who worked there. However, these people as they were

4 coming in, he said himself that he saw that all these people were very

5 good to me and there was no need for him practically to come there any

6 more, but then he would drive me there and drive me back and things like

7 that. So sometimes we would together stop by the hotel and have lunch

8 together, have a family lunch, at least in part. This is before we went

9 to live at the hotel.

10 Q. You didn't have to ask anybody permission to have your son

11 accompany you in and around the KP Dom because you were the warden; you

12 were in charge. Right? I understand he had to ask his commander, but you

13 didn't have to ask anybody in the KP Dom whether he was allowed there;

14 right?

15 A. The compound of the KP Dom, I don't know if I ever entered it

16 while he was there. Perhaps only once --

17 Q. Sir, sir, please --

18 A. -- when I went to the furniture factory.

19 Q. Please. The question was about your son's presence at your side.

20 The fact that your son was able to be at your side every single day during

21 that time, you didn't have to ask anybody permission, did you?

22 A. I did not have to ask permission from anyone at all.

23 Q. Your son never told you that the White Eagles were so dangerous

24 and you had to be protected from them, did he? That's something that he

25 said for the first time here in the courtroom; isn't that right?

Page 7884

1 A. Well, I think that he said -- that had he said that then, he would

2 have only frightened me even know. The White Eagles were the way they

3 were, and people knew that. I didn't see them do anything bad, but people

4 talked, so people knew about this even if he didn't say anything to me.

5 Q. It was well known, in other words, that the White Eagles were

6 cruel and were there often to get booty; right?

7 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly now what is well known, because

8 what does "well known" actually mean?

9 Q. Sir, sir. You knew it; right?

10 A. Well, you're threatening me with your finger and trying to make me

11 say that I knew it. I didn't know it. Sorry.

12 Q. Sir, if you would answer the question, it would make things go

13 much faster. I have to repeat the question and direct your attention and

14 sometimes cut you off because you are going way off the scope of the

15 question. And I really don't think anybody here in the courtroom wants to

16 go beyond this week, so please, try to stay focussed. I'm not threatening

17 you. I'm trying to keep everybody here focussed so we're not here for the

18 rest of the year.

19 You had no reason then to be scared of the White Eagles; right?

20 A. I was not scared. He was scared, so he was with me.

21 Q. In fact, the day after you came back from your conversation with

22 Mladjenovic, you have stated that the White Eagles weren't treating you

23 rudely any more and that you were even able to have coffee with them;

24 right?

25 A. Right.

Page 7885

1 Q. And in fact, there was one occasion when a detainee, Ekrem

2 Zekovic, was taken to the restaurant near the bridge to fix a door that

3 had been broken, and he was being harassed by some members of the White

4 Eagles, and you came and chased them away. They were scared of you,

5 right, because of your authority?

6 A. At that time at that restaurant, there weren't any White Eagles.

7 There were young men who had white uniforms on. They were like persons

8 who used skis in the snow. One of the men who was there was a pupil of

9 mine, and therefore I was not afraid of him and he was not afraid of me.

10 These were locals from Foca and from the surroundings of Foca.

11 Q. Sir, regarding the incident that Mr. Zekovic testified about, you

12 did come and intervene and tell those people to leave him alone; right?

13 It's just that they weren't a member of the White Eagles.

14 A. Believe me, I don't remember that Mr. Zekovic was in that kind of

15 situation at all and that he was there at all. I know that these people

16 were there, but at that moment I don't remember that Mr. Zekovic was there

17 repairing that door and that he was jeopardised.

18 Q. After your conversation with Mr. Mladjenovic your second day at

19 the KP Dom, the members of the White Eagles treated you with respect;

20 right? They didn't threaten you, they didn't interfere with your work,

21 did they?

22 A. They didn't interfere with my work, but whether it was with

23 respect, I can't say that. But they didn't interfere with my work.

24 Q. In what way did they not respect you?

25 A. Well, they didn't have any contact with me, and I didn't have any

Page 7886

1 contact with them. I did my job; they did their job. We didn't have

2 anything to do together, and there wasn't anything that separated us from

3 one another, either, except for this shared entrance into the KP Dom.

4 Q. After your assignment as warden at KP Dom, you were still living

5 in Foca; right? And Cerezluk, then at the Hotel Zelengora, and then in

6 the former flat of Dr. Sosevic. All of these places were in Foca; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you didn't lose contact with your friends and family who

9 remained in Foca either; right? You were still able to remain contact --

10 maintain contact with people?

11 A. From time to time.

12 Q. In fact, you talked to people about your assignment and you

13 learned about their assignments as well; right?

14 A. With some people.

15 Q. So you were learning more or less what was happening around town

16 during this war time; right?

17 A. On the basis of -- or, rather, what do you mean by this? How do

18 you think that I found out what was happening around town, or what are you

19 referring to? What did I find out that was going on in town?

20 MS. KUO: It's 4.00, Your Honours. We can pick up on this

21 tomorrow morning.

22 JUDGE HUNT: We'll resume at 9.30 in the morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m., to

24 be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day of June,

25 2001, at 9.30 a.m.