1. 1 Monday, 20 March 2000

    2 [Open session]

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

    4 [The accused entered court]

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    6 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the

    7 technicians, to our interpreters; good morning to

    8 counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for Defence; good

    9 morning, General Krstic.

    10 We will resume our proceedings today. We

    11 will be sitting in the present composition, as it has

    12 been announced, Judge Wald and myself. We will be

    13 acting pursuant to Rule 15 bis of our Rules of

    14 Procedure and Evidence, but maybe only for today.

    15 So without much further ado, we will go on

    16 with the testimony of Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez.

    17 Is that the case, Mr. Harmon? You have the

    18 floor.

    19 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President;

    20 good morning, Judge Wald. That is the case.

    21 Good morning, counsel.

    22 [The witness entered court]

    23 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

    25 morning, Mr. Ruez. Can you hear me? May I remind you

  2. 1 that you are still under an oath. We're going to

    2 continue now with your testimony. You will be

    3 answering questions by Mr. Harmon. Thank you.

    4 Examined by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd]

    5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ruez. If you would

    6 approach the Prosecutor's exhibit, the large map, and

    7 again orient us to the location of the Pilica Cultural

    8 Centre.

    9 A. I don't have a microphone which I used to

    10 have in the other courtroom. I'll just use this one.

    11 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, we concluded last week's

    12 session with looking at a film of the Pilica Cultural

    13 Centre; is that correct?

    14 A. That is correct. And the location of that

    15 place on this map is precisely where I'm going to

    16 indicate it [indicates]. The purple triangle at the

    17 top of this exhibit, just under the border of Drina

    18 Corps, the Drina Corps limit, the north limit of the

    19 corps.

    20 Q. Mr. Ruez, would you start your presentation

    21 with Prosecutor's Exhibit 25/A?

    22 A. This exhibit is a photocopy of the map of the

    23 area, scale 1:50.000, and pinpoints the precise

    24 location of the so-called Dom of Culture of Pilica.

    25 One can see on this map that it is approximately

  3. 1 2 kilometres by a dirt road from the Branjevo Farm to

    2 the Pilica Dom of Culture. This is the way that the

    3 executioners took that day.

    4 The next exhibit, 25/1. It is an aerial

    5 photograph of Pilica, and I will show you the

    6 Exhibit 25/2, which is exactly the same photograph with

    7 markings on it. I would need to enlarge this.

    8 So on this photograph, one can first see the

    9 national road that goes towards Bijeljina if one takes

    10 the north, and Zvornik if one takes the direction of

    11 the south. Also, the cafe is pinpointed, the location

    12 from which Drazen Erdemovic could witness the events.

    13 You can also see on the photograph the

    14 cultural hall, which is the main building of that

    15 location. There will be also an unidentified vehicle

    16 which is visible on this photograph and will be seen on

    17 another one. We will comment on this one later on.

    18 One can see from that photograph that it is a populated

    19 area.

    20 The next exhibit, 25/3, will give a better

    21 view of the area. It is a helicopter view, photograph

    22 dated 1999, and I will circle both the Dom of Culture

    23 and the cafe in front of it on the photograph [marks].

    24 I will mark "A" the Dom of Culture and "B" the little

    25 cafe. One can clearly see on this photograph that they

  4. 1 are houses, and as one could see on the film dated

    2 1996, these houses were also occupied at the time.

    3 Q. So, Mr. Ruez, these executions took place in

    4 a populated area; is that correct?

    5 A. This is absolutely correct, yes.

    6 The next exhibit is 25/4. It is a closer

    7 view of the Dom of Culture in relation with the cafe,

    8 which I'm going to again circle "A" and "B", "A" being

    9 the Dom of Culture and "B" the cafe [marks].

    10 Exhibit 25/5 is a view from above of the same

    11 Dom of Culture. It happened at random that day that a

    12 double bus, the same ones which are used by the Milici

    13 bauxite mine company and which provided also

    14 transportation for both people deported or being

    15 executed, was standing just in front of the Dom,

    16 probably in the same position buses were standing at

    17 the time of the events, but this photograph is dated

    18 1999. The access to the house of culture, I will mark

    19 it with an arrow [marks]. This is the access way to

    20 the entrance of the Dom of Culture.

    21 Q. Mr. Ruez, let me direct your attention to an

    22 object or two objects that appear behind the bus and

    23 between the bus and the cultural Dom. Do you see the

    24 two objects I'm referring to? Two large objects that

    25 appear to be in stone. Can you tell the Judges (1)

  5. 1 whether your investigations show that those objects

    2 were present at the time of the execution and, if not,

    3 what are they?

    4 A. Yes. These objects are a monument related to

    5 the school but the monument has changed since. Now it

    6 is turning into a religious monument in that location.

    7 It is under construction. It is not finished.

    8 Q. In 1995, were these two large monuments

    9 present?

    10 A. They were present but they are getting

    11 transformed. There will be another exhibit, 25/7,

    12 which will show how these monuments were in 1996, and

    13 they are currently under change.

    14 Q. Thank you.

    15 A. Exhibit 25/6 is the plaque which indicates

    16 the location and which is to be in the front facade of

    17 the Dom of Culture. It is seen on the film, and it

    18 indicates the location, Pilica.

    19 The next exhibit, the 25/7, is a view of the

    20 front facade of the building on which the two monuments

    21 you were referring to can be seen.

    22 Exhibit 25/8 is a view on the entrance door,

    23 the main entrance door of the Dom of Culture. There is

    24 another door also, and I will mark it with an arrow

    25 [marks]. And this is the door from which the witness

  6. 1 could see men running out of the building and being

    2 shot in the street. As far as we know, there is not

    3 one single survivor from this event. We have never

    4 interviewed anyone who survived this location, nor have

    5 talked with anyone who knew someone who had survived

    6 this event. Without the testimony of Drazen Erdemovic,

    7 we would not know about this situation. He's the only

    8 one who provided information about what happened there.

    9 The next exhibit, 25/9, goes in relation with

    10 Exhibit 25/10. These two exhibits form a panorama

    11 which shows in what state was the door before we

    12 entered the place and filmed the piece of footage which

    13 we showed to the Court. I have a problem with my

    14 device here. Yes, okay. Sorry. So as one can see on

    15 this photograph, there are a certain number of spider

    16 nests in between these two iron doors. These spider

    17 nests seem to indicate that no one has entered this

    18 location for a while. This footage was -- our entrance

    19 is dated June 1996, so between July 1995 and June 1996

    20 most probably no one entered this location before we

    21 got in, so we probably were the first ones to get in

    22 just after the cleaning process was conducted in 1995.

    23 Exhibit 25/11 is a view photographed from the

    24 openings in the first floor, these holes which are most

    25 probably the holes of the projectionist when they were

  7. 1 passing movies inside this theatre. One can also see

    2 on this photograph the other door I was referring to,

    3 which I'm going to mark with an arrow [marks].

    4 Exhibit 25/12 is a close-up on some of the

    5 most significant bloodstains that one could see inside

    6 this building.

    7 25/13 shows one of the walls during a process

    8 where samples were taken from the wall.

    9 And Exhibit 25/14 is a photograph of the wall

    10 at the back of the building where the main destructions

    11 occurred, above the stage where probably the people

    12 were jammed, trying to avoid the bullets and the

    13 grenade explosions.

    14 The Exhibit 25/15 is a view of the cafe,

    15 which is just in front of the House of Culture.

    16 The Exhibit 25/16 is a black and white

    17 photocopy of a black and white aerial photograph. The

    18 quality of the photocopy is fairly poor, but this is a

    19 blow-up of the previous aerial photograph where an

    20 unidentified vehicle was marked. We have been told

    21 that this unidentified vehicle is indeed a truck. I am

    22 going to circle this object on the photograph [marks].

    23 The photograph is dated 17 July 1995. The event we are

    24 talking about was 16 July, so this photograph is one

    25 day after all the murders happened. One could conclude

  8. 1 that this truck is parked here in order to take out the

    2 bodies of the victims away from the Dom of Culture.

    3 Another element that is visible on the

    4 photograph are tyre tracks, which I'm going to mark as

    5 well [marks], and these tyre tracks lead to the side

    6 door which I marked on a previous exhibit. And I'm

    7 going to mark with an arrow the location of the side

    8 door. So another vehicle might have got into that area

    9 to assist the cleaning process, if not the same one.

    10 Q. Mr. Ruez, does that conclude your

    11 presentation on the Pilica Cultural Dom?

    12 A. Yes, it does.

    13 Q. Let's turn our attention next to Prosecutor's

    14 Exhibit 26, which is the Rocevici school, and if you

    15 would start again by orienting the Judges to that

    16 location on the big map.

    17 A. The Rocevici school is a school located close

    18 to the national road that goes from Zvornik towards

    19 Bijeljina. It is located in fact in between Kozluk and

    20 Pilica. I'm going to point this detention facility on

    21 the main exhibit, where the purple triangle is marked

    22 on the main exhibit map.

    23 The next exhibit is 26A. It is a photocopy

    24 of a map of the area, and the green dot marks the

    25 precise location of the school. Seen from the road, it

  9. 1 is just on top of the hill that goes in a soft slope

    2 uphill, and the school is at the top. We have no

    3 indication of how many people were taken to that

    4 school, nor how long they were -- they stayed inside.

    5 The Exhibit 26/1 is a photograph of that

    6 school. The frame could be enlarged so that it only

    7 shows this main building. There are other buildings

    8 behind, but this is the view one can have by zooming on

    9 this building seen from the road.

    10 Q. Mr. Ruez, let's turn our attention now to

    11 Kozluk. Again, please orient the Judges with the large

    12 map and then turn your attention, if you would, to

    13 Prosecutor's Exhibit 27A, the small map.

    14 A. So Kozluk, as marked on this map, is an

    15 execution site and an initial mass grave site. It is

    16 located just north-east of Kozluk. One has to drive

    17 through the town coming from the south and turn right

    18 once inside the town to reach a dirt road that then

    19 brings us to a spot which is just next to the Drina

    20 Valley. And on the map I pinpoint it [marks], is right

    21 here.

    22 Exhibit 27A is a map of the area. I will

    23 pinpoint more precisely on this exhibit the location of

    24 the execution sites. The black line that turns right

    25 towards the Drina River is a dirt road. And where I'm

  10. 1 going to mark the cross, or a little circle, is the

    2 area where the execution spot was located [marks].

    3 We have no survivor from this situation. The

    4 information, as we have been told -- sometimes

    5 difficulties to reach the area of Zvornik. It has

    6 difficulties to reach the headquarters of the Drina

    7 Corps located in Vlasenica. But the information we

    8 received about the event which happened in Kozluk

    9 arrived from this area to the community of refugees in

    10 Germany. From the information we received about this

    11 location, we could request an imagery check of the area

    12 to confirm the event, and that led to the Exhibit

    13 27/1. Following the information we received from the

    14 rumour I mentioned, we could gain access to these two

    15 photographs. The one on the left is dated 5 July

    16 1995. The photograph on the right shows the ground

    17 17 July 1995.

    18 On the photograph which is at the left, one

    19 can see an area completely at the left of the picture,

    20 which is grey and white. This is the Drina River. The

    21 little path, which is going just underneath where the

    22 date is written, 5 July 1995, is the little path which

    23 I marked on the previous exhibit.

    24 As one can see on the photograph on the right

    25 hand, there are several areas of disturbed soil, with a

  11. 1 main area which I'm going to circle as area "A"

    2 [marks]. One can see on this photograph, for example,

    3 a pit, a very clean pit, which I'm going to mark "B"

    4 [marks]. Just a reference so that you can have an idea

    5 of how the things looked from above.

    6 This pit has not been used. It was probably

    7 used only to cover, to take soil and cover then the

    8 victims. "B" is the area of the pit, how the pit looks

    9 like as seen from above.

    10 The next exhibit is 27/2. It's an aerial

    11 view of the area. It shows, on the left of the

    12 picture, the area I will mark "A", which is the area

    13 where the grave is and the execution site. I pinpoint

    14 it with an arrow inside the circle "A" [marks].

    15 One can see also on this photograph Kozluk

    16 town at the top of the picture, and also at the top

    17 right of the picture a building which I'm going to

    18 circle and which is a factory of bottles, Vitinka

    19 Factory, Kozluk [marks]. It was also the headquarters

    20 of the Drina Wolves, which was a unit, part of the 1st

    21 Zvornik Brigade at the time. There is only one way to

    22 exit this area, which is to pass in front of this

    23 factory and in front of the Drina Wolves' barracks.

    24 Q. Would you mark the Drina Wolves' barracks and

    25 the bottle factory with a letter "B", please?

  12. 1 A. The circle is now marked "B" [marks].

    2 The Exhibit 27/3 is another view from the

    3 site, which is the exact location of the execution site

    4 and burial site, and I will circle it [marks]. The

    5 circle is marked "A". Just at the opposite side of the

    6 river is a territory of the Federal Republic.

    7 The Exhibit 27/4 is a photograph of the site

    8 taken from the ground the first day we approached it

    9 which was in June 1998. This is a scene from the

    10 ground. One can see it is also a remote and hidden

    11 area.

    12 Photograph 27/5 is a summary of the items

    13 which we found the first day we approached the place.

    14 The main elements one can see here is broken glass.

    15 The area is, in fact, the dump site for broken glass

    16 from the factory. All these elements are of interest

    17 since they enable you to make the connection between

    18 the primary mass grave, which is to be found on this

    19 location, which like all the other sites, has been

    20 disturbed by the perpetrators before Dayton and the

    21 bodies hidden in remote locations, but these locations

    22 were found and partially exhumed.

    23 These items were also found inside, glass,

    24 shell casings. Here you also have body parts, which

    25 I'm going to circle on this photograph [marks], which

  13. 1 were popping out of the soil and that we could excavate

    2 a little bit that day.

    3 The following exhibit is 27/6. The next

    4 exhibit is 27/6. It is a photograph of a wall just

    5 next to the bottle factory and it shows the trademark

    6 of this factory, Vitinka, Kozluk.

    7 The Exhibit 27/7 is this factory with, next

    8 to it, the Drina Wolves' barracks, you can see a member

    9 of the Drina Wolves, and this photograph is dated

    10 1988.

    11 MR. HARMON: We are now going to show a

    12 film. It is Prosecutor's Exhibit 27/18. If the lights

    13 could be dimmed and we can play that particular film.

    14 Mr. Ruez, would you narrate this as you deem

    15 appropriate in the course of the showing of this film.

    16 I'm sorry, it's 27/8, not 18.

    17 [Videotape played]

    18 A. This is an aerial view of the area. This is

    19 the Drina Valley. On the left you have -- now in front

    20 of the Drina. This is the area of the site, execution

    21 site and mass grave. On the opposite side of the river

    22 is the Federal Republic. This is the path that then

    23 leads towards Kozluk. Zooming towards Kozluk, here you

    24 have the buildings which I had marked "B" on an

    25 exhibit. This is a view of the environment that shows

  14. 1 that it is a deserted area, this kind of -- what one

    2 could think of when looking only at the map.

    3 This is the area seen from the ground just

    4 next to the river. This is the ground, how it was when

    5 we arrived the first day on this site.

    6 Here at the bottom you can see broken glass,

    7 here a piece of human remains. There are several piles

    8 of broken glass in this environment.

    9 This is at the edge of a slope, and here is a

    10 foot, a shoe with still the foot inside. Another

    11 shoe. A pile of broken glass.

    12 Shell casings were to be found just at the

    13 edge of the grave, on the path. Additional shell

    14 casings were collected during the exhumation. Shell

    15 casings were mixed with the soil and the glass.

    16 A vertebra. Another shoe. Trying to remove

    17 these shoes, we discovered that, in fact, there were

    18 bodies underneath, and that this was a very shallow

    19 grave and that the disturbance had obviously been very

    20 badly done since body parts were just underneath the

    21 surface.

    22 This is the area in the vicinity of the

    23 execution site and burial site. There were several

    24 piles of trash.

    25 This area was obviously a former Muslim

  15. 1 cemetery. We found one gravestone just in the

    2 vicinity.

    3 These are stacks of labels from the bottle

    4 factory. We found exactly these same type of labels in

    5 a secondary site.

    6 This is the exit towards Kozluk, the

    7 headquarters of the Drina Wolves, with the bottle

    8 factory just next to it. The distance between the two

    9 sides is approximately 1 kilometre.

    10 This is the patch of a Drina Wolf, a black

    11 wolf yelling in a blue circle.

    12 This is Kozluk town, and the vehicle just

    13 exited the access to the site. This is town centre.

    14 According to the rumour, the prisoners had to sing Serb

    15 songs. Meanwhile, they were driven on army trucks

    16 towards the execution site.

    17 Later on, the exhumation took place here.

    18 This is another view of the site during the

    19 exhumation. This is the entire area of the exhumation

    20 site. The exhumation here is over, finishing. The

    21 report will be given about this exhumation.

    22 Here you have a slope where bodies were

    23 found.

    24 Mr. Ruez, I'm going to show you two large

    25 photographs that I used in my opening statement and ask

  16. 1 you if you can identify the locations where these

    2 photographs were taken. Mr. Ruez, the usher will hold

    3 it up against the map, and that is Prosecutor's Exhibit

    4 1I. Do you recognise that photograph and can you tell

    5 the Judges where that photograph was taken?

    6 A. Yes. This is a photograph taken during the

    7 exhumation at the Kozluk site and which shows an area

    8 which is in fact the most north of the site, where

    9 bodies were found exactly in the position where they

    10 were lying at the time of the execution.

    11 Q. Mr. Ruez, let me show you Prosecutor's

    12 Exhibit 1H and again ask you if you can identify this

    13 particular photograph and tell the Judges where this

    14 photograph was taken.

    15 A. Yes. This photograph is the photograph of

    16 one of the 340 bodies which were recovered from the

    17 Kozluk exhumation, 340 being only part of the total

    18 number of bodies on this site, like on all the others,

    19 most of the others, a disturbance took place. Other

    20 bodies to be found in the valley we call the Cancari

    21 Valley.

    22 Q. Keep that photograph there, please,

    23 Mr. Usher, and if you would hand Mr. Ruez Prosecutor's

    24 Exhibit 27/9.

    25 Mr. Ruez, can you identify that particular

  17. 1 exhibit and tell the Judges what it is, please.

    2 A. Yes. This exhibit is a blindfold which was

    3 found during the exhumation at Kozluk; very precisely,

    4 on the head of the man who is lying on the ground with

    5 his hands attached in the back on this photograph.

    6 Q. In photograph Prosecutor's Exhibit 1H?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Mr. Ruez, my last exhibit is going to be a

    9 map which in many respects is identical in terms of the

    10 relevant locations to the large map in front of you.

    11 Would you identify this exhibit and explain to the

    12 Judges what it is and what it represents.

    13 A. So this exhibit is indeed the same one than

    14 the main map. The difference between the two mainly is

    15 that on the last exhibit you have here, you can see the

    16 terrain, and the terrain is a very important aspect to

    17 properly understand all these events, due to the fact

    18 that all these areas have not been selected at random.

    19 Most of them are in remote places, away from populated

    20 areas, and this will be made very obvious when we will

    21 develop the part regarding the disturbance of all these

    22 graves. Then the terrain becomes a very important

    23 element.

    24 All the symbols which are marked on the main

    25 exhibit are also marked on this one but with different

  18. 1 symbols on it. The only confusing element in this map

    2 is that on the bottom right of the map you have the

    3 border of the enclave, which is marked, with all the

    4 observation posts marked in yellow. And this can

    5 create a confusion with the secondary sites, which are

    6 also marked in yellow, but they are triangles, and you

    7 have a concentration of these triangles at the south of

    8 the enclave, together also with observation posts. But

    9 if not, this map has all the elements we have exposed

    10 during these three days. All these elements are marked

    11 on this exhibit.

    12 Q. And the observation posts, Mr. Ruez, are

    13 squares in yellow with a letter in the middle of the

    14 square; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes, this is correct. These symbols mark UN

    16 observation posts.

    17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

    18 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,

    19 I've concluded my direct examination of Mr. Ruez.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Could you

    21 please give me the number of this last exhibit,

    22 Mr. Harmon.

    23 MR. HARMON: Exhibit 29.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

    25 Mr. Harmon. Very well. We shall now move on to the

  19. 1 cross-examination by the Defence. But perhaps it would

    2 be good if we made a short break now so the Defence

    3 could organise themselves and prepare for the

    4 cross-examination.

    5 Mr. Petrusic, would you agree with that?

    6 Would it be convenient for you to make a break before

    7 you begin?

    8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,

    9 Mr. President, because we have also to talk to the

    10 audio booth. So yes, a few minutes would be very

    11 convenient. Thank you.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    13 We shall then make a 20-minute break, and after that we

    14 shall resume or, rather, the Defence will begin its

    15 cross-examination.

    16 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

    17 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    19 Let us now move on to the cross-examination of the

    20 witness, Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez.

    21 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

    22 MR. PETRUSIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

    24 Q. Mr. Ruez, the Defence will begin with the

    25 10th of July, 1995. During the examination-in-chief,

  20. 1 you said that the crucial moment is when a decision was

    2 taken to set off either towards Potocari or towards the

    3 woods, towards the forest. Could you please clarify

    4 that. Could we now see the film.

    5 A. I did not hear a question. I only heard a

    6 fact.

    7 Q. Do you know who took that decision, who made

    8 the decision?

    9 A. Negative. We do not know who took the

    10 decision. I could develop a bit on this if you want a

    11 more complete answer. As far as we know, decisions

    12 were already made earlier than the 10th to get out of

    13 the enclave.

    14 Q. Mr. Ruez, was the decision made by civilian

    15 or military authorities?

    16 A. Yes. I am also listening to the

    17 translation. This is why I take a little while before

    18 answering more completely your question.

    19 The decision initially was not taken in a

    20 concerted effort. Groups of people made the decision

    21 by their own. What happened is mainly the 11th of

    22 July, once the people were assembled in Srebrenica town

    23 -- and they didn't assemble themselves under any kind

    24 of instruction; it was a normal movement that they took

    25 that day. The reason was that the people understood

  21. 1 that day that if nothing happened, the enclave would

    2 fall. And that day everyone was expecting the

    3 airstrikes. All the population was assembled and

    4 waiting for planes to strike in the area. Instead of

    5 that, in the morning of the 11th, once the population

    6 entered the compound of the United Nations, the Company

    7 B, a shell hit the crowd, a mortar shell hit the crowd,

    8 and that generated additional panic.

    9 After this event, the people were still

    10 waiting for the airstrikes, but all of the men took the

    11 direction of the woods. And only then, after the

    12 failure of the airstrikes, which was observed by the

    13 people who were overlooking the situation from uphill

    14 -- I correct for the French translation. There was an

    15 airstrike. The people were waiting for the airstrike,

    16 and the airstrike was inefficient, according to their

    17 view. The reason why the final decision was made

    18 indeed, for all the men who didn't dare facing the

    19 Bosnian Serb army, to flee through the woods.

    20 Q. Mr. Ruez, the convoy of the refugees starting

    21 from Srebrenica towards Potocari, were they escorted by

    22 the members of the Dutch battalion or, rather, the

    23 company of the Dutch battalion that was stationed in

    24 Srebrenica?

    25 A. No. There was no escort provided by UN

  22. 1 forces to the people at the moment they were leaving

    2 towards the woods. At that moment, the UN forces

    3 within the enclave were retreating from their blocking

    4 positions which were installed at the south of the

    5 enclave, and at that moment there was already a free

    6 access for the Bosnian Serb forces coming from the

    7 south of the enclave.

    8 What happened is that the Muslim forces

    9 inside the enclave abandoned the responsibility to

    10 defend the place to the United Nations. Therefore,

    11 they decided to flee through the woods.

    12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We're still

    13 dealing with Exhibit 3. So could the booth please show

    14 the film.

    15 [Videotape played]

    16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    17 Q. What we have just seen is when the units of

    18 the army of Republika Srpska, General Mladic,

    19 General Zivanovic, and General Krstic in the rear are

    20 entering Srebrenica. The transcript of this film was

    21 not produced, was not submitted to the Chamber, was

    22 it?

    23 A. I believe it's going to be done very soon, as

    24 far as I understood.

    25 Q. Mr. Ruez, would you agree with me when I say,

  23. 1 since you must have, during your investigation, heard

    2 Mr. Mladic's speech, that when entering Srebrenica,

    3 General Mladic says, "Come on. Hurry. Hurry.

    4 Direction Bratunac, Potocari."

    5 A. Yes. That is absolutely correct. This is

    6 what General Mladic is saying to the troops when they

    7 enter Srebrenica town the 11 July.

    8 Q. Was General Mladic the Commander or the Chief

    9 of Staff of the army of Republika Srpska?

    10 A. General Mladic was the Chief of the Bosnian

    11 Serb army at that time.

    12 Q. But on that particular occasion, as we see in

    13 Exhibit 3, he has the highest rank of all the present

    14 officers and the highest commanding post, doesn't he?

    15 A. Yes. Definitely. At this moment, General

    16 Mladic is the higher ranked Bosnian Serb officer

    17 present in town.

    18 Q. And the words which General Mladic pronounced

    19 there, could they be interpreted as an order?

    20 A. They could be considered as an encouragement

    21 to the troops he's visiting that day, which he was

    22 visiting that day. Yes.

    23 Q. Mr. Ruez, did General Mladic enter together

    24 with the units of the VRS in Srebrenica on the 11th of

    25 July?

  24. 1 A. As soon as the town was taken over by

    2 elements of the 10th Sabotage Detachment and Drina

    3 Wolves, then General Mladic and the officers who were

    4 together with him at the forward command post of

    5 Pribicevac went down from the forward command post and

    6 visited the town.

    7 Q. From what part of the enclave did the units

    8 arrive?

    9 A. The Bosnian Serb forces entered the enclave

    10 from the south, which is the most difficult terrain to

    11 conduct such an operation. One could have expected

    12 armoured forces to punch through coming from the north

    13 but, in fact, the enclave was taken from the south.

    14 Q. Mr. Ruez, during your investigation, did you

    15 find out that General Mladic was commanding the units

    16 directly?

    17 A. Negative. We do not have such knowledge. We

    18 can say that he had a very tough control on everything,

    19 what was going on, but we are not in a position here to

    20 say that he was the one giving the orders. I said it

    21 in the present. Was giving the orders.

    22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could the

    23 technical booth please show the next tape.

    24 [Videotape played]

    25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

  25. 1 Q. Mr. Ruez, are these the police forces which

    2 are running -- which are controlling the separation of

    3 men from women and children at Potocari?

    4 A. Yes. The man that can be see on the film is

    5 probably someone from the Special Police, in charge of

    6 the deportation of the population. The man which was

    7 seen on the left side of the picture is not yet

    8 identified. The investigation on him is still

    9 ongoing.

    10 Q. Thank you.

    11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we see

    12 now the third fragment, please.

    13 [Videotape played]

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    15 Q. There is an error here, but could you comment

    16 on this, because it is quite evident that this is one

    17 of the Dutch military.

    18 A. Yes. The man who was wearing the blue beret

    19 is a UN officer. The location is in Potocari, on the

    20 parking lot just in front of the so-called Blue

    21 Building. It is just north of the separation line,

    22 approximately 50 metres north from the separation

    23 line.

    24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could we see

    25 now the next fragment, please.

  26. 1 [Videotape played]

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

    3 Q. This was taken in Sandici. The part of the

    4 uniform on the man we just saw, was it part of the

    5 uniform that the members of the Dutch battalion or,

    6 rather, the UN forces wore? I'm referring to the

    7 T-shirt.

    8 A. The solder who is to be seen on the film is a

    9 Muslim soldier. He is wearing a T-shirt, a T-shirt

    10 with a camouflage pattern on it.

    11 I don't have any sound in French in my helmet

    12 at this moment.

    13 No. We have a very precise description of

    14 the camouflage pattern since we can see it on the

    15 film. What I cannot tell you, because we didn't study

    16 the question, is if the camouflage pattern is from the

    17 Dutch army. I don't believe so, just by looking at it

    18 like this, but this could be a possibility. One has to

    19 know that in the area, what was mainly making the

    20 difference between a soldier and a civilian was not

    21 really the way he was dressed. It was, in fact, if he

    22 had or not a rifle in the hands.

    23 It could very well be that the T-shirt that

    24 one can see on this film appeared to be a Dutch army

    25 camouflage pattern. It could be that someone had given

  27. 1 it to this man as a souvenir, but, again, I don't know

    2 if it is a Dutch one or not.

    3 The main event, what one can see on this

    4 piece of footage, is that, as all the witnesses will

    5 come and tell you, most of the soldiers -- most of the

    6 soldiers were getting rid of any element which could

    7 identify them as combatants. The reason is that they

    8 had the absolute certainty that they would immediately

    9 be murdered if they were found out being combatants.

    10 Most of those who were captured and were dressed in the

    11 style this man was dressed were taken aside for special

    12 treatment.

    13 The next step on this film, which is not on

    14 film, is that indeed, as you can see, the man is forced

    15 to take his T-shirt off so that he has no reason to be

    16 proud of being from the army. We don't know what

    17 happens to him. The only thing we know is that he is

    18 on the list of missing persons.

    19 Q. Mr. Ruez, could you tell us which is the

    20 camouflage paint on the weapons, on tanks, guns, and

    21 other weaponry of the army of Republika Srpska, rather,

    22 the Drina Corps? What colour are those weapons?

    23 A. If I understand probably the question, the

    24 question is -- the question is if I know what kind of

    25 camouflage is in use by the Bosnian Serb army at the

  28. 1 time.

    2 Q. Yes.

    3 A. Okay. So there was no specific camouflage

    4 pattern for the Bosnian Serb. The equipment which was

    5 used by the JNA at the time, it was the JNA -- the

    6 colour was olive-green. Later during the war, you can

    7 see a variety of various camouflage patterns appearing

    8 on vehicles, in accordance with no harmonised pattern.

    9 We could show you photographs of heavy equipment,

    10 tanks, and APCs that we photographed in 1996, and one

    11 would see that it is, in fact, depending on the

    12 artistic skills of the crew.

    13 What is translated as an "extract," I was

    14 talking about photographs.

    15 This was used for the heavy equipment, for

    16 what is used by the soldiers. The camouflage pattern

    17 is always the same. It's a variety of green and dark

    18 green. But the same situation. Some flak jackets were

    19 purchased in foreign countries, so you don't have --

    20 and you can have situations where various camouflage

    21 patterns can be seen also on soldiers. Flak jackets.

    22 Yes.

    23 Q. I'm referring to the heavy equipment. Can

    24 one distinguish between the police and purely military

    25 means of warfare or, rather, the difference between the

  29. 1 military and the police heavy weaponry when we're

    2 talking about camouflage colours?

    3 A. We didn't see the heavy equipment belonging

    4 to police forces. We didn't see any of this on film.

    5 And for the rest of the equipment, we have the records

    6 of Zvornik Brigade; we have a listing of the equipment

    7 of the Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade, a list

    8 of equipment of; and the material that we can see from

    9 time to time on film belongs to the Drina Corps, not to

    10 the police.

    11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could the

    12 technical booth now show the next fragment, please.

    13 [Videotape played]

    14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation].

    15 Q. This military vehicle or, rather, this tank,

    16 is blue, a camouflage blue.

    17 A. I don't see a blue tank on this photograph.

    18 I can see a tank of dark colour, maybe grey or dark

    19 olive, with indeed some white or dark grey stripes on

    20 the barrel of the gun.

    21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

    22 Exhibit 12/5, please.

    23 A. I see the one you are referring to.

    24 Q. Nova Kasaba.

    25 A. That is correct.

  30. 1 Q. Do you know which units were stationed in

    2 Nova Kasaba?

    3 A. The question would have to be broken in two.

    4 Units were permanently residing in Nova Kasaba. The

    5 unit which was permanently fixed there at the time was

    6 an element of the 65th Protection Regiment, which is,

    7 as you know, a unit which is specially attached to the

    8 protection of the Main Staff.

    9 What you also have in this area is the Milici

    10 Brigade. In a very close vicinity, about 10, 15

    11 kilometres, the headquarters of the Drina Corps in

    12 Vlasenica. Less than 10 kilometres north from this

    13 location, at the intersection of Konjevici, was the 5th

    14 Engineer Regiment.

    15 So there were indeed several units constantly

    16 located in this environment. In addition to these

    17 elements, you also had reinforcement from the Zvornik

    18 Brigade at the time of the events. Reinforcements,

    19 reeforcements [French]. Thank you.

    20 Q. Can you identify that unit on the photograph?

    21 A. I don't know to what unit these dog handlers

    22 belonged to. These dog handlers belonged to,

    23 maitres-chiens [French]. They were on this soccer

    24 field. The first day when we entered Republika Srpska

    25 to conduct missions there, you will hear from a Dutch

  31. 1 soldier -- no, complete mistranslation. We never heard

    2 that from the Dutch soldier. You will hear soon from a

    3 Dutch soldier. He will talk about dog handlers who

    4 were explaining the use they made of their dogs, and

    5 that conversation was overheard in Bratunac, but we do

    6 not know if these dog handlers are the same ones. The

    7 photograph only shows that these people were in the

    8 area, but it doesn't say these were the ones who were

    9 operating in July 1995.

    10 Q. Mr. Ruez, is it true that in July 1995 the

    11 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was under the

    12 command of the Main Staff.

    13 A. The 65th Protection Regiment is a unit

    14 designed to protect the Main Staff. We do not know at

    15 this stage if this unit was or not resubordinated to

    16 the Drina Corps for the sake of its participation in

    17 the operation. So if it did participate, we would make

    18 the assumption that it was at that moment put under the

    19 authority of the Drina Corps commander.

    20 Q. That of course is an assumption.

    21 A. Yes. It would only be a supposition.

    22 Q. During your testimony, Mr. Ruez, you

    23 mentioned a piece of information to the effect that

    24 during your investigation you talked to Mr. Miroslav

    25 Deronjic. Do you know that on the 11th of July, Mr.

  32. 1 Miroslav Deronjic was appointed civilian commissioner

    2 for the municipality of Srebrenica by Mr. Radovan

    3 Karadzic, the president of the Republika Srpska?

    4 A. Yes, we know that, and this is mainly the

    5 reason why we interviewed Mr. Deronjic.

    6 Q. Mr. Ruez, are you familiar with the contents

    7 of the decree whereby Mr. Karadzic appointed Mr.

    8 Deronjic to the position of civilian commissioner?

    9 A. I did not get the full translation. Yes, we

    10 do know about the decree nominating Miroslav Deronjic

    11 civilian commissioner for Srebrenica.

    12 Q. According to that decree, his

    13 responsibilities are as of the month of July, that is,

    14 the 11th of July of 1995. Pursuant to the said decree,

    15 was Mr. Deronjic authorised to organise civilian

    16 authority, both civilian and police authority in the

    17 territory of the Srebrenica municipality as of the 11th

    18 of July?

    19 A. I would like to have the question repeated,

    20 please.

    21 Q. Pursuant to the said decree, and you say you

    22 are familiar with the contents of that decree, did Mr.

    23 Karadzic authorise Mr. Deronjic to organise the

    24 civilian authority in the municipality of Srebrenica,

    25 including the police forces in the territory of the

  33. 1 Srebrenica municipality, which of course encompassed

    2 certain rights and obligations?

    3 A. The task and the mission which was given to

    4 Miroslav Deronjic by his president, Radovan Karadzic.

    5 Q. Was the locality of Potocari within the

    6 territory of the Srebrenica municipality?

    7 A. Potocari indeed belongs to the Srebrenica

    8 municipality, the former municipality of Srebrenica,

    9 since, as far as I know, once the enclave was retaken,

    10 the municipality of Srebrenica vanished and was

    11 integrated into the municipality of Skelani. But if

    12 not, Potocari indeed belongs to the municipality of

    13 Srebrenica.

    14 Q. Mr. Ruez, in the vicinity of the town of

    15 Potocari -- and when I say "vicinity", I have the

    16 distance of between 10 and 20 kilometres in mind -- is

    17 it true that there is a number of transport companies

    18 that are situated there in that area?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, there are several. In fact,

    20 mainly two: Vihor Transport based in Bratunac, and

    21 also the military bauxite mine company has

    22 transportation means available which is not for public

    23 transportation but for the transportation of the

    24 workers.

    25 Yes, but I have to say for the French

  34. 1 translation that I did not say "Bratunac"; I said

    2 "Milici." Bratunac is Vihor; Milici is military

    3 bauxite mine transportation.

    4 Other companies which had their names written

    5 on buses, which is Drina Trans, Central Trans,

    6 companies who are covering the nation before the war,

    7 and then the buses were used by those who kept them.

    8 Q. Therefore it is possible for the buses to

    9 reach Potocari from those locations in a relatively

    10 short time?

    11 A. The buses which are detained by these

    12 companies, yes. But for the sake of this operation,

    13 more transport means were needed. The army

    14 requisitioned materiel. The civilian authorities made

    15 an appeal over the radio. Even persons who possessed

    16 vehicles who could transport people were requested to

    17 provide these vehicles to assist in the process.

    18 Q. Mr. Ruez, at the end of your testimony you

    19 referred to exhibit number 2. It is a map of the

    20 Zvornik Brigade. You said that you will speak about

    21 the agreement between the Zvornik Brigade and the 28th

    22 Division more later on.

    23 A. I'm not sure I know what exhibit we are

    24 talking about. Are we talking about the big map?

    25 Q. Yes, exactly.

  35. 1 A. Yes. In fact, I said exactly the opposite.

    2 What I said at that time is that I would not develop on

    3 that part. The reason is that the criminal

    4 investigation is -- the criminal investigation is

    5 focusing on the chain of massacres which constitute the

    6 entire extermination of these prisoners. The

    7 investigation did not focus on the military aspects of

    8 the battle.

    9 I was mentioning this event for the sake of

    10 the reason that at the moment these intense combat

    11 activities were happening in the vicinity of Zvornik,

    12 there was a vacuum of forces to protect Zvornik. The

    13 reason was that the forces were down towards

    14 Srebrenica, to conduct the Srebrenica offensive.

    15 This situation had two consequences. The

    16 consequence number one is that there was a requisition

    17 of all vallied personnel in order to confront the

    18 column in the woods and set ambushes on its way. And

    19 to set ambushes.

    20 The other consequence is that the Serb forces

    21 who were trying to oppose this column suffered quite a

    22 significant number of casualties. Once you will

    23 overlay the Exhibit number 2, which is the map of the

    24 extermination operation, when you will overlay this map

    25 with the map which was seized at the headquarters of

  36. 1 the Zvornik Brigade, you will easily realise that at

    2 the same moment, at the same moment people were getting

    3 killed in combat in the forest. Forces which could

    4 have been used also to fight this column were derouted

    5 to conduct exterminations on execution fields. This is

    6 the paradox of the situation at that time in that

    7 location.

    8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] This concludes

    9 my cross-examination, Mr. President.

    10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Wald,

    12 you have the floor. Oh. Excuse me. I apologise.

    13 I'm sorry, Mr. Harmon. Of course you have

    14 the right to redirect examination. I'm sorry.

    15 MR. HARMON: I have no redirect examination,

    16 Mr. President. Thank you.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In any

    18 case, it is very important to have that on the record.

    19 Thank you very much.

    20 Judge Wald.

    21 Questioned by the Court:

    22 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Ruez, I wonder if you would

    23 be able to summarise, on the basis of what you've

    24 already testified and on the exhibits that we've

    25 already seen, the points on the journey, on the map

  37. 1 next to you, where there was visible presence of either

    2 elements of the Drina Corps or other elements of the

    3 VRS, either people or equipment, after Potocari, after

    4 both the column left Srebrenica that went toward Tuzla

    5 and the convoys left Potocari?

    6 A. Yes, I could do that.

    7 JUDGE WALD: Just very briefly the spots, by

    8 pointing to the spots.

    9 A. In fact, all the spots, in absolutely all the

    10 spots, but details about that would come from the

    11 witnesses who would say who was guarding them --

    12 JUDGE WALD: I understand.

    13 A. -- and what was in their environment, but

    14 let's take it from south to north. In Sandici,

    15 military forces were seen, and as you can see on the

    16 film, heavy equipment as well, a tank and an APC.

    17 In the area of Nova Kasaba also, witnesses

    18 talk about presence of forces. When going up to the

    19 main execution sites, the personnel guarding and

    20 executing the prisoners are elements from the corps.

    21 JUDGE WALD: Which location was that? Which

    22 location did you just mention?

    23 A. The Grbavci School, and attached to the

    24 execution sites of Orahovac. A lot of the elements

    25 which are connecting these crime scenes to the

  38. 1 perpetrators will come from the military analysis

    2 conducted from the documents that we seized at the

    3 headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac

    4 Brigade in January 1998. This collection of documents

    5 is the foundation of all the knowledge, the detailed

    6 knowledge that we have about the participants in these

    7 operations.

    8 We have the same situation also at the Dam.

    9 Same thing for the school of Pilica, where elements of

    10 the Drina Corps have these people under their control.

    11 Then for the execution at the Branjevo Farm,

    12 we know from Drazen Erdemovic that the main

    13 participants were initially the 10th Sabotage

    14 Detachment, very quickly joined by people who arrived

    15 late from Bratunac. We know that these same people are

    16 the ones who committed the executions at the Dom of

    17 Culture.

    18 Finally, we have the situation of Kozluk,

    19 where more details will come and where we indeed know

    20 that people were taken in army trucks near this Drina

    21 Wolf barracks.

    22 So, in fact, on all the crime scenes, we have

    23 people who witnessed the presence of the VRS in a large

    24 sense for this moment.

    25 JUDGE WALD: Thank you. My second question

  39. 1 is: Do you have any estimates, reliable estimates, of

    2 the number of men who left Srebrenica in the column

    3 that moved toward Tuzla? Just a rough estimate.

    4 A. Indeed it is a rough estimate. The number we

    5 are always using is the assessment of 15.000 men.

    6 JUDGE WALD: How many of those do we know

    7 survived, got through to the Bosnian side?

    8 A. We could have a precise number on this. We

    9 know that approximately 6.000 men reached Tuzla area

    10 and were then integrated, for most of them, into the

    11 2nd Corps of the BiH army. The figure should be quite

    12 precise. It should not be difficult to have

    13 confirmation about that number from the Bosniak

    14 authorities and from the BiH army.

    15 JUDGE WALD: The second and last part of my

    16 question is: Do we also have any estimates of the

    17 number of men who stayed in Potocari and got on the

    18 buses or were taken separately in the convoys?

    19 A. We have an estimate on this. There was a

    20 figure given in the situation reports which were

    21 drafted at the time. The person who drafted that part

    22 of the report was Major Kingori. His estimate of the

    23 number of men present at the time is 3.000 men in

    24 Potocari. That figure would have to be double-checked

    25 for the reason that the counting system was far from

  40. 1 being accurate. So I would take that figure only as a

    2 very rough estimate.

    3 When we see films taken during these days,

    4 the 11 -- mainly the 12th and the 13th, it is obviously

    5 that there is still a large number of men in Potocari,

    6 but to have a precise figure is something that I would

    7 not risk myself to try to give you now.

    8 JUDGE WALD: The final part of my question

    9 is: Do we have any reliable estimate of how many of

    10 those men who were in Potocari and either went on the

    11 convoys separately or some with the women and children,

    12 how many of those do we know survived?

    13 A. We only know about one man who survived after

    14 having gotten on board the bus. The reason why he

    15 survived is that he knew the driver, and arrived at the

    16 final checkpoint and the driver knew a commanding

    17 officer there and passed a request for this man to go

    18 through and this was immediately done. We have no

    19 other example like this.

    20 When we look at the video footage of the men

    21 arriving in Kladanj the first day of the deportation,

    22 some men can be seen. So it seems that men were able

    23 to get on board of buses. These men are old men.

    24 We also know from all the witnesses from the

    25 very beginning of the deportation process, men could

  41. 1 get on board of buses but very, very quickly, mainly

    2 after the arrival of Mladic in Potocari, that

    3 possibility stopped and the men were systematically

    4 separated.

    5 JUDGE WALD: But do we know whether or not

    6 any men got over into Kladanj along with the women and

    7 children?

    8 A. As far as we know, only very old men managed

    9 to pass through these checkpoints. All the

    10 military-aged men and that fork of age is very wide.

    11 It goes from approximately 15, 16 to 60 if not above.

    12 All these men were systematically separated.

    13 JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Ruez,

    15 in order to sum up a little bit your testimony, I would

    16 like to ask two questions.

    17 As far as I have understood, the initial

    18 objective of the army of Bosnian Serbs was not to take

    19 over Srebrenica but to reduce the area in terms of

    20 borders.

    21 A. There has never been any limit fixed to the

    22 enclaves. What marks the border of the enclave is the

    23 position of the observation posts. Therefore, the

    24 intention of the Bosnian Serb army, at one point, was

    25 to shrink the enclave and to shrink it at the size of

  42. 1 the town. The end result of this would have been that

    2 no more combat activities could have been launched by

    3 little groups from the inside of the enclave by using

    4 this large surface of wooded hills and create what one

    5 could call, in brackets, a large open-air concentration

    6 camp where people were living in awful conditions, all

    7 this in the aim to force the United Nations to take the

    8 decision to evacuate all these people.

    9 Reputting this in context, one has to recall

    10 that any evacuation of victims from an area at that

    11 time, an evacuation conducted by the UN, was

    12 immediately interpreted as assistance to ethnic

    13 cleansing. So that was putting everyone in an infernal

    14 situation.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My first

    16 question, in connection to that, is the following: The

    17 objective of the army was to shrink the enclave and not

    18 take over the enclave of Srebrenica, which means that

    19 the preparations were conducted with that objective in

    20 mind. At one point in time, there was a change in

    21 objective.

    22 Are you in the position to tell us what kind

    23 of changes were made in terms of preparations of the

    24 operation?

    25 A. The main change, as we view it, is that

  43. 1 switching from a situation only to shrink the enclave

    2 at the size of the town and capturing it militarily

    3 didn't make much of a difference on a military point of

    4 view. The only tricky part of that was, in fact, the

    5 reaction of UNPROFOR. But once it became clear that

    6 there would be no strong reaction of the United Nations

    7 regarding that element, the main new factor the Bosnian

    8 Serb army had to take in consideration, at that moment,

    9 was the fate of the prisoners. The fact is that at

    10 that moment, the Bosnian Serb army could not anticipate

    11 capturing such a large number of men without fighting.

    12 So this is indeed the moment all the planning

    13 for the part of the operation, which is not recorded by

    14 the Bosnian Serb archives and which is the exhibit --

    15 the map of Exhibit number 2, this is the moment indeed

    16 where these questions started to get raised and where

    17 decisions were starting to be made by those who made

    18 them.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We can,

    20 therefore, conclude that the organisation of the

    21 evacuation itself, bearing in mind the scale of the

    22 evacuation, that is, the number of persons involved,

    23 was not something that had been previously foreseen.

    24 The procedure that we can see from that map, among

    25 other things, is it something that can tell

  44. 1 you -- were there any elements that show you, that

    2 point to the fact that there had been some kind of

    3 organisation, even at the last minute or not?

    4 A. These elements -- unfortunately, I think it's

    5 a bit too early for me, at this stage, to disclose

    6 these elements, but we have clues, very precise clues

    7 which show us that 13 July 1995, all decisions were

    8 already made in terms of what to do with these men, and

    9 that specialised personnel was visiting the area, the

    10 Zvornik area, in order to find the locations where to

    11 keep all these prisoners without any anticipation of

    12 needs like food and probably also looking for a remote

    13 and hidden execution sites.

    14 The earliest we can date these activities are

    15 13 July 1995. This will come from the analysis of

    16 Richard Butler, our military analyst, who will develop

    17 it for you at a later stage.

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] One other

    20 question, Mr. Ruez. You mentioned several times that

    21 an execution squad would be waiting for the prisoners.

    22 I don't know if I'm correct in thinking that there had

    23 already been, on the spot, an execution squad which was

    24 supposed to execute the prisoners.

    25 Again, in order to sum up a little bit your

  45. 1 testimony, could you tell us: What is the explanation

    2 of that particular fact in view of the overall

    3 organisation of the evacuation of the Srebrenica

    4 enclave? Have you understand my question? Thank you.

    5 A. The plan related to the enclave, this appears

    6 nowhere. This appears as an element of organisation

    7 for this extermination process phase. For every one of

    8 these detention sites and killing sites, the main

    9 elements on which to focus is indeed who was

    10 transporting the people to the site, who was guarding

    11 them once they were on this site, and then who was

    12 executing them on the execution site. But the fact is

    13 that there was a clear organisation and distribution of

    14 the roles. It's not the same people who are mixing the

    15 roles. Some are indeed guarding during the travels,

    16 others are guarding in the detention facilities like

    17 the schools. During this process, indeed execution

    18 squads are still -- are already waiting for their

    19 victims on a predetermined execution site.

    20 This is the case for the Grbavci school and

    21 the attached site of Orahovac. This is also the case

    22 at the Petkovci school and the Petkovci Dam. It is

    23 also the case at the Pilica school and the Branjevo

    24 Farm. It is most probably also the case at Kozluk, but

    25 in Kozluk, as I told you, we don't have the information

  46. 1 coming neither from the perpetrator, nor the victim, so

    2 we don't know exactly what was the scenario on this

    3 spot.

    4 The only exception to this is the Dom of

    5 Culture of Pilica, where the same execution squads went

    6 from the Branjevo Farm toward the House of Culture,

    7 where a number of 500 people were supposed to try to

    8 break out. The reason why? They had to be killed in

    9 that location.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My last

    11 question, Mr. Ruez: You happened to mention the fact

    12 about the soldiers, members of the VRS, who wore

    13 UN uniforms which they had taken from Dutch soldiers.

    14 This kind of conduct, could it, from your point of

    15 view, be considered as an expression of some problems

    16 faced by the Bosnian Serb army to conduct this whole

    17 procedure and to facilitate its task by using the

    18 uniforms and other things which perhaps might persuade

    19 the prisoners to behave in a different manner? What do

    20 you think about this, Mr. Ruez?

    21 A. The main reason for the use of the equipment

    22 was, without any doubt on our side, to lure the people

    23 and make them -- bring them to surrender, in order not

    24 having to fight them, capture them easily.

    25 The way the situation developed might be even

  47. 1 more interesting. The reason is that the Dutch command

    2 got the agreement that UN soldiers would escort buses

    3 and trucks of prisoners towards Kladanj to make sure

    4 they would reach their destination. That means all

    5 along the way, they could witness already events.

    6 There was obviously a blank cheque to kill in this

    7 area, and the Dutch soldiers could witness all these

    8 events when they were driving alongside the road.

    9 As pinpointed on the map, they are sites

    10 which we call small execution sites but which are quite

    11 massive. Some are above 100 people. All these bodies

    12 were to be seen along the road. We didn't say a word

    13 about the number of bodies that the people could

    14 observe from the windows of the buses by moving out of

    15 this area, and it's a clear fact that none of the

    16 persons who arrived on the asphalt road had a reason to

    17 turn a weapon against anyone. If so, it would be

    18 instant death. So maybe some did in order to commit

    19 suicide and die honourably, if one can say so. Most of

    20 the others didn't but most didn't and were probably

    21 killed on the spot. So that generated a lot of

    22 witnesses in the area.

    23 So there was an absolute need anyhow for the

    24 VRS to get rid of these witnesses, these UN witnesses.

    25 Steal their equipment was a consequence of this process

  48. 1 of removing them from the area, putting them in

    2 detention sites like the special -- I mean, the

    3 compound of the 65th Protection Regiment in Nova

    4 Kasaba, where indeed they have interesting things that

    5 they saw and that they heard.

    6 Once all this was done, the material was then

    7 derouted in order to make the people believe that all

    8 this operation was still monitored by the United

    9 Nations. This led indeed to the use of this equipment,

    10 very obviously in front of commanders passing by.

    11 We didn't show that piece of footage, but as

    12 soon as the 11th of July, UN equipment was already

    13 taken from observation posts, and there is a piece of

    14 footage where General Mladic and General Krstic are

    15 standing nearby a tank driven by a Bosnian Serb soldier

    16 who is standing, with a blue beret slipped in his

    17 belt. We don't know what use this one made of this

    18 equipment, but we know what the others did with it.

    19 Obviously everyone was aware, informed, and no one

    20 opposed that.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

    22 very much, Mr. Ruez. We're still in the early days of

    23 the case and that is why we have so many questions, but

    24 I should like to thank you for coming here to testify.

    25 We shall move on to another witness, but I

  49. 1 believe this would be a good time to make a break. The

    2 next witness will be a protected witness, Mr. Harmon,

    3 isn't it?

    4 MR. HARMON: Yes. That's correct. I have

    5 some exhibits I'd like to present before we go into the

    6 protected witness mode. We can do that after the

    7 recess. I'd also like to move into evidence about

    8 various exhibits that were introduced and identified by

    9 Mr. Ruez, and I can wait until after the break to do

    10 that as well.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

    12 And you want to do that with Mr. Ruez?

    13 MR. HARMON: No. He can --

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I

    15 see. Well, in that case, Mr. Ruez is free to go, and

    16 you will have the opportunity to introduce those

    17 documents and make a break. How long will you need,

    18 Mr. Harmon?

    19 MR. HARMON: Ten minutes.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.

    21 Excuse me. I will, therefore, go back on what I said.

    22 I think it is better to make a break and then we shall

    23 resume.

    24 Mr. Ruez, thank you very much for your

    25 testimony before the Tribunal. Lots of success in the

  50. 1 future.

    2 Now, we have shall a 20-minute break and then

    3 we shall resume.

    4 [The witness withdrew]

    5 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

    8 We are now resuming the hearing. Mr. Harmon, you have

    9 the floor.

    10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,

    11 I would like to first introduce a number of exhibits

    12 that have been referred to either in my opening

    13 statement or through the testimony of Mr. Ruez.

    14 I'd like to move into evidence Prosecutor's

    15 Exhibit 1A and 1B. Those are two small maps showing,

    16 (1) the location of the Srebrenica municipality; and

    17 (2) showing the location of three enclaves.

    18 I would like to introduce 1E bis -- I'm

    19 sorry. 1E, which is this large map that Ruez referred

    20 to frequently; 1E bis, which is a separate legend to

    21 that map; 1I -- I'm sorry -- yes, 1I, which is a large

    22 photograph showing skeletons in a trench; 1H which is

    23 another photograph I referred to in my opening

    24 statement; Prosecutor's Exhibit number 2, which is the

    25 large map, Krivaja 95, the operations map; Prosecutor's

  51. 1 Exhibit 3, which is a film used by Mr. Ruez;

    2 Prosecutor's Exhibits 4 through 27, which are the two

    3 volumes of photographs, as well as associated videos

    4 that were played during Mr. Ruez's presentation;

    5 Prosecutor's Exhibit 16/6, which is a wire ligature;

    6 27/9, which is a blindfold; and Prosecutor's Exhibit

    7 29, which is a large map introduced at the end of

    8 Mr. Ruez's testimony, showing the contours of the land

    9 and relevant sites. So we would move those into

    10 evidence.

    11 In addition, Mr. President, I would now like

    12 to distribute to Your Honours and to counsel three

    13 separate exhibits: Prosecutor's Exhibit 30 and 30A,

    14 which will be the report of the Secretary-General

    15 pursuant to General Assembly Resolution 53/35. It's

    16 entitled "The Fall of Srebrenica." 30 is the English

    17 version of this report and 30A is the French version of

    18 the report. In addition, Mr. President and Judge Wald,

    19 there are annexes to that report which are found in

    20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 31. And the last -- which

    21 Mr. Dubuisson will now distribute, and then I'll turn

    22 to my last exhibit.

    23 The last exhibit is Prosecutor's Exhibit 33A

    24 through 38B, and I will identify each of those separate

    25 exhibits. These exhibits include reports in French and

  52. 1 English. They are the reports on the situation of

    2 human rights in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

    3 that were submitted by Mr. Mazowiecki, who was the

    4 Special Rapporteur of the Commission of Human Rights,

    5 and these reports are a series of reports that were

    6 submitted by Mr. Mazowiecki. They start in

    7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 33A with a report dated the 28th

    8 of August, 1992. There's a series of six reports. The

    9 last report is a report that was submitted by

    10 Mr. Mazowiecki on the 22nd of August, 1995. Again,

    11 this was the final periodic report on the situation of

    12 human rights in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

    13 submitted by Mr. Mazowiecki, Special Rapporteur of the

    14 Commission of Human Rights.

    15 So we would move these various reports into

    16 evidence as well. And that completes, with the

    17 submission of these exhibits, it completes the overview

    18 of events that took place in Srebrenica.

    19 And now, Mr. President, without further ado

    20 I'll yield the floor to my colleague, Mr. McCloskey,

    21 who will lead the next witness. And we will proceed --

    22 we'd make a request that we proceed in closed session.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before

    24 that, perhaps, Mr. Harmon, I should like to ask the

    25 Defence if they have any objections to any one of these

  53. 1 exhibits.

    2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

    3 the Defence objects when it comes to Exhibit 14, that

    4 is, Nova Kasaba; Exhibit 17, Konjevic Polje; and

    5 Exhibit 18, the Jadar River.

    6 Let me explain. In Mr. Ruez's testimony, the

    7 Prosecutor adduced those exhibits and Mr. Ruez referred

    8 to them as places where executions took place.

    9 However, if we look at the indictment, and I believe we

    10 have to really go by the indictment, these localities,

    11 these are not mentioned in counts 24 to 26 of the

    12 indictment, and the Defence therefore believes that

    13 these exhibits may not be -- may not make part of

    14 evidence. They may not be used in the hearing in

    15 consideration of the case. Thank you.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon.

    17 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the indictment,

    18 paragraph 24, is a list of various locations that is

    19 not exclusive. It says in paragraph 24: "The

    20 wide-scale and organised killings of Bosnian Muslim men

    21 which occurred in several different locations in and

    22 around Srebrenica enclave from 11 July 1995 until 18

    23 July 1995 included ..." It didn't say it was limited

    24 to these locations, and therefore we believe that the

    25 locations that are described in this are relevant. In

  54. 1 addition, I might add that the Jadar River site is a

    2 location that the Defence received the discovery from

    3 the Prosecution, has received evidence of a statement

    4 from the survivor of that location and has been fully

    5 aware that we intend to lead that evidence in the

    6 course of this trial.

    7 Lastly, Mr. President, in respect of the

    8 location at Nova Kasaba, I believe there are aerial

    9 images of that location that were shown to the Defence

    10 prior to the commencement of this trial pursuant to our

    11 obligation under Rule 70B, and the location of Konjevic

    12 Polje, likewise, we believe are relevant under the

    13 terms of paragraph 24.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

    15 I heard the translation that the sites mentioned under

    16 paragraph 24 to 26 are not exclusive. You meant

    17 perhaps that this is not the exhaustive list of sites;

    18 they are merely some of the places by way of example.

    19 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Mr. President.

    20 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, just to make sure I

    21 understood your explanation, was the Defence in fact

    22 alerted to the fact that the exhibits -- or the

    23 locations involved in Exhibits 14, 17, and 18 would be

    24 the subject of evidence? I think you mentioned one or

    25 two, but I wasn't sure whether you mentioned the

  55. 1 third. In other words, was supporting material,

    2 various other things, they knew that these would be the

    3 subject of evidence?

    4 MR. HARMON: That's correct. The first item,

    5 which is 14, which is Nova Kasaba, includes -- let me

    6 just take a look at this for a minute. Let me return

    7 to Nova Kasaba in just a minute.

    8 17, paragraph 17, is Konjevic Polje. These

    9 items were known to the Defence. Item 18, the Jadar

    10 River, was known to the Defence. We provided them with

    11 a copy of a survivor's statement from the Jadar River.

    12 In respect of the locations of grave sites described in

    13 those particular locations, we have provided the

    14 Defence with exhumation reports relating to each of

    15 those locations where there's a grave site included.

    16 JUDGE WALD: You said you'd go back to Nova

    17 Kasaba.

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for her honour.

    19 MR. HARMON: Just a minute. Let me grab my

    20 exhibit binder. Yes, Judge Wald. The Nova Kasaba

    21 grave sites were divulged to the Defence. One, there

    22 are aerial images that the Defence was shown, and two,

    23 Nova Kasaba grave sites are the subject of an

    24 exhumation report that was provided to the Defence.

    25 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

  56. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the

    2 Defence objects against Exhibits 14, 17, 18, and we

    3 heard the explanation of the Prosecution. So now we

    4 have to examine it in greater detail, and after the

    5 deliberation, the Chamber will pass its decision. At

    6 the moment, we cannot really take the decision

    7 immediately. We have to go into it and we shall then

    8 make our decision, and that will be tomorrow perhaps.

    9 So now I think the Prosecution will now continue with

    10 the production of evidence, and I believe it was

    11 Mr. McCloskey who will take over.

    12 Mr. Harmon.

    13 MR. HARMON: Yes. We will proceed in a

    14 closed session on the next witness.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Does

    16 the Defence know and does it agree with the protection

    17 measures for this witness, Mr. Petrusic?

    18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We know

    19 about that and we agree with the measures as proposed.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

    21 therefore, we can take all the necessary measures so

    22 that we could proceed with this witness.

    23 For the public, I need to say we will be

    24 hearing evidence with protective measures, and we will

    25 now change to a closed session.

  57. 1 [Closed session]












    13 pages 830-877 redacted - closed session








    21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    22 at 2.43 p.m., to be reconvened on

    23 Tuesday, the 21st day of March, 2000,

    24 at 9.30 a.m.