1 Monday, 27 March 2000
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
6 morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning to our
7 sound engineers, the interpreters; I hope you hear me.
8 Good morning to counsel for the Prosecution and for the
9 Defence, to General Krstic. We are here for the
10 hearing in the case of General Krstic.
11 I believe there were two points which the
12 Defence wished to raise last week. Are you ready now,
13 Mr. Visnjic, to do so?
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
15 Mr. President.
16 [Technical difficulty]
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
18 I think we have a problem here. I am not getting the
19 French interpretation. Yes, I seem to be on the right
20 channel. Now it's all right. Now it is all right.
21 Very well. We always have problems of communication,
22 don't we?
23 Mr. Visnjic, I believe we have established
24 contact now. You may continue.
25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
1 Mr. President; good morning, Your Honours. I should
2 also like to say good morning to our learned friends
3 from the Prosecution, to the registry, to our
4 interpreters and sound engineers.
5 Mr. President, the two issues I wish to raise
6 arose during a closed session of the hearing. I do not
7 know if this is a public session. If it is, perhaps it
8 would be advisable to go into a closed session briefly
9 because of the two questions I wish to raise.
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, we are
11 now in public session.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 We are in a public session, but we shall now move to a
14 closed session so that Mr. Visnjic could raise these
15 issues. Would there be any interest in addressing
16 these questions in a public session, Mr. Visnjic?
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No,
18 Mr. President. These are technical issues, more or
19 less, but in view of the nature of the problem, I
20 believe it will be more advisable if we closed it to
21 the public.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
23 If there are reasons to go into a closed session, then
24 we shall do so.
25 [Closed session]
13 pages 1314-1326 redacted - closed session
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] In order to
17 have face distortion, as requested by the witness, we
18 are going to keep the public character of the hearing
19 only through the audio transmission, and it is possible
20 to follow the proceedings only in the room which is
21 situated next to the press office. This is a public
22 hearing; however, there will be nobody -- there will be
23 no public in the small room here on my right-hand
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
1 very much, Mr. Dubuisson. We are ready. The witness
2 can be brought in.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
5 morning, Witness D. Can you hear me?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I hope that
9 you've had a nice weekend here in The Hague.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was
11 not exactly nice, but it was okay.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, very
13 well, then. In any case, we are going to do our best
14 to have you feel comfortable here. Let me just remind
15 you that you are still under oath. You have requested
16 certain protective measures, and they will be applied.
17 There will be nobody in the public gallery in this
18 courtroom, and the public will be able to follow the
19 proceedings in one other room here at the Tribunal.
20 Witness D, you will now continue with giving
21 answers to the counsel for the Defence, Mr. Visnjic.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS D [Resumed]
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:
24 Q. Good morning, Witness D?
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. Witness D, I should like to go back to the
2 month of July 1995. Could you please tell the Chamber
3 what your occupation was at that period of time?
4 A. In July 1995, because I had been wounded, I
5 didn't have any particular occupation. I was at home,
6 and I was receiving treatment.
7 Q. At that time, Witness D, were you a member of
8 the BH army?
9 A. No, not at that time.
10 Q. Let me go back to the 11th of July, 1995.
11 You testified that on that day, you had left Srebrenica
12 for Potocari; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please describe your departure from
15 Srebrenica to Potocari to the Chamber?
16 A. I left on foot. My house was not very far
17 from Potocari, and I left on foot together with my wife
18 and my child.
19 Q. Were there many people on the road on that
20 day, going from Srebrenica to Potocari?
21 A. Yes, the road was crowded with people,
22 including women and children.
23 Q. Could you perhaps tell us whether this column
24 of people going towards Potocari was exposed to any
1 A. As far as I could see, there was some
2 shelling; however, I cannot be sure whether the column
3 itself was targeted. There were lots of shells falling
4 in the vicinity of the road which was taken by those
5 people, and as far as I heard from other people, there
6 was some shelling but I didn't see it.
7 Q. You testified during your direct examination
8 that on the 12th of July, in the factory where you had
9 found accommodation, some Serb soldiers appeared; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. You told us that they were dressed in a
13 different fashion.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you also said that they spoke with a
16 different accent?
17 A. Yes. This is something that I observed
19 Q. You said that they sounded as if they were
20 from Montenegro.
21 A. Yes. I'm familiar with the various accents
22 from the former Yugoslavia because I used to travel a
23 lot. I knew accents from Macedonia, Montenegro, and so
24 on, and I had many friends all around the country.
25 Q. Was the dialect in question the Ijekavica
2 A. Well, sir, I'm sure you're familiar with this
3 special accent that is used in Montenegro. There is
4 something very particular about it, and people from
5 that area can understand each other perfectly, and it
6 is an easily recognisable accent.
7 Q. Can you distinguish between the two variants
8 of the language, between Ijekavica and Ekavica.
9 A. Yes, I can. I should perhaps emphasise that
10 they spoke with the so-called Ekavica. But in addition
11 to that, there were some -- there was something
12 particular which indicated to me that those people were
13 from Montenegro.
14 Q. I should like to ask you one more question.
15 Before you testified here, before this Chamber, you
16 gave a number of statements, including the statement
17 that you gave to the police, or rather to the MUP.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In your statement before this Chamber, the
20 one that you gave on Friday, you mentioned a person by
21 the name of Garic, and some sabotage activity he had
22 been involved with.
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. I have noticed that you did not mention this
25 particular event in your previous statements. Could
1 you please tell me why are you mentioning it only now?
2 A. Could you please clarify your question? I
3 don't think I mentioned Garic --
4 Q. I'm referring to the incident in the tunnel.
5 A. Well, it is normal for the statement to
6 contain a number of details, and the reason why I
7 didn't mention it before -- well, there's nothing
8 special. I did have a conversation with a man by the
9 name of Spomenko, and he wanted to tell me about this
10 particular action. He wanted, actually, me to confirm
11 what he was saying, and his name was not Spomenko, but
12 Stanimir. He wanted me to tell him about that
13 particular action, he insisted on it, so I told him
14 about it. And, indeed, this action had taken place.
15 Everybody knew about it. You can ask anyone in
16 Srebrenica, and they will all confirm you that.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
18 that concludes my cross-examination. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
20 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any additional questions?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad
23 Riad, do you have any questions for the witness?
24 JUDGE RIAD: Just one
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness D.
2 A. Good morning, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE RIAD: I would just like to understand
4 more clearly how you detected these people, the
5 soldiers which you mentioned spoke the Ekavica dialect,
6 and you were able to conclude that they came from
7 Montenegro. Now, in Bosnia, don't you speak different
8 dialects, or is it usually that nobody speaks another
9 dialect from other parts of the former Yugoslavia?
10 A. I will try to explain this to you, Your
11 Honour, and I will try to be brief. As I have just
12 told you, I used to travel a lot throughout the former
13 Yugoslavia, and I had a number of friends everywhere.
14 I had an encounter with those soldiers; they wanted to
15 see my ID; they wanted to know where I had been
16 wounded, and I told them that I had been wounded
17 before. So that conversation lasted for a while,
18 several minutes probably, and I could tell that they
19 were speaking the Ekavica dialect. This dialect can be
20 spoken by people in Bosnia and in Serbia, of course;
21 however, there is something particular about that kind
22 of accent when it's coming from a Montenegro, and
23 that's how I managed to detect that. My conclusion was
24 that the soldiers were from Montenegro.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Now, if I remember rightly, your
1 testimony before the weekend, you did not only mention
2 that they had different dialect, you mentioned that
3 they looked different, they were dressed differently
4 than those from around Srebrenica. Am I remembering
5 rightly, or was it just the dialect?
6 A. Yes. Yes, you are right, Your Honour. They
7 had camouflage uniforms, that is, multi-coloured
8 uniforms, but they were somehow better quality. You
9 can distinguish between uniforms in terms of quality.
10 Serbian soldiers whom we could see in the area, that
11 is, in the vicinity of the lines around Srebrenica, had
12 uniforms of somewhat worse quality, and these other
13 soldiers had better uniforms, they looked better.
14 Let me try to explain. You have various
15 types of camouflage uniforms, depending on the army,
16 that is, the country the soldiers in question are
17 coming from, and people tend to compare uniforms. And
18 I thought that their uniforms were of a somewhat better
20 JUDGE RIAD: Only the quality, or was it the
21 badge too or any sign that showed that they belonged to
22 the army of Serbia, for instance?
23 A. I did not notice the insignia. Probably
24 because of my fear, I didn't observe carefully. It was
25 just a general impression. I did not pay particular
1 attention to their insignia, and I cannot say that I
2 observed the insignia. It was only the quality and
3 type of uniform that I could see.
4 JUDGE RIAD: And their accent.
5 A. Yes, the accent as well, this specific kind
6 of speech.
7 JUDGE RIAD: Also in your testimony last
8 Friday, I think, you spoke of this young, beautiful
9 girl who -- there was a whole thing, but at the end,
10 she was taken away, and you heard screams. Did you
11 know after that what happened to this girl? Did she
12 come back? Did she relate anything? Was she -- did
13 she survive?
14 A. I couldn't learn anything on that day,
15 neither could I do so on the following days, but when I
16 reached the free territory in Kladanj, the BH army
17 wanted to take my statement, they wanted to know what I
18 had been through. So after I had given my statement
19 and after I had mentioned the young woman in my
20 statement, they told me that they knew about the girl
21 and that she was alive, and they told me that she had
22 been released.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Did she confess -- did she say
24 anything about what happened to her?
25 A. I wouldn't know anything else. I don't know
1 her name. Maybe the whole thing remained her secret.
2 I didn't inquire about the girl further on.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Just a last question. I
4 understood, perhaps rightly, that you were wounded, and
5 for this purpose, perhaps you did not continue the war;
6 is that right? When were you wounded?
7 A. I was wounded at the very beginning of the
8 war. I had sustained serious injuries, and the
9 treatment was quite difficult. You probably know that
10 there were no medicines in Srebrenica at the time. The
11 wound would often get infected, and I had a lot of
12 problems with it.
13 JUDGE RIAD: And then you completely left any
14 military activity.
15 A. Yes, completely. There were a number of
16 soldiers who were healthy, but they left the army as
17 well because of the demilitarisation. There was no
18 need for them. And I was not capable to join anyway.
19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness D.
20 A. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Judge Wald, please.
22 JUDGE WALD: Witness D, I have three
24 Number 1, when you were taken off the bus in
25 Luka, did anybody ask you about whether you were
1 wounded or whether you were disabled in any way?
2 A. No. Nobody asked me that question. I was
3 simply pulled back by the shoulder and ordered to give
4 my child to my wife. I was carrying my daughter, but I
5 had to follow the soldier who had ordered me to give
6 her to my wife.
7 JUDGE WALD: My second question is you
8 describe the different dialect and uniforms of the
9 soldiers who were around the factory in Potocari. Was
10 that true of all the soldiers, or were there some local
11 soldiers? Were all the soldiers that you were able to
12 come into contact with around Potocari of this
13 different variety of uniform and dialect?
14 A. I can say that that was the only group of
15 Serbian soldiers with whom I had any contact. I could
16 only observe others, and I didn't have any contact with
17 other soldiers. So I cannot say anything as to their
18 belonging to any particular group.
19 JUDGE WALD: Just to make sure I understand.
20 You may have seen other soldiers, but you weren't close
21 enough to them to know what they were, or you didn't
22 see any soldiers at all that were not of the
23 Montenegrin variety?
24 A. I saw a couple of those soldiers, those who
25 had this other type of uniform which I mentioned, and I
1 also saw a number of soldiers who were wearing this
2 uniform that was -- the one that I described as of
3 somewhat worse quality. I did see a number of other
4 soldiers, but that was the only group that I had
5 actually talked to, and I had to talk to them because
6 they wanted to see my ID. And I should say that they
7 behaved decently.
8 JUDGE WALD: My last question is, when you
9 were taken off the bus in Luka and taken to the school
10 with 22 other men, and later taken to the field for
11 execution, did you have an opportunity to find out
12 where those other men had come from? In other words,
13 had they been taken off buses, or had they been
14 captured or surrendered from the column that was
15 marching toward Tuzla? The other men that were with
16 you in the field and in the school.
17 A. Yes, I understand your question, Your
18 Honour. I was able to find out, yes. Serb soldiers
19 talked to a number of people. Fuad and Alija, whose
20 names I mentioned, for example, had set out in the
21 direction of the wood, so they were captured on the way
22 through the woods, whereas other people, they were all
23 from Potocari.
24 JUDGE WALD: So they came from both people
25 who had stayed in Potocari and people who had gone off
1 with the column that marched towards Tuzla.
2 A. [No audible response]
3 JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Witness D.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness D,
5 you have heard a number of questions from everybody
6 here, from the Prosecution, from the Defence, from the
7 Judges. Is there anything else you wish to say to the
8 Chamber, something you haven't yet said?
9 A. Your Honour, I have so many things to say, to
10 talk about, but I don't know, I don't think there is
11 anything in particular that I should like to add to my
12 statement. Thank you.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness D,
14 let me thank you on behalf of the Chamber for coming
15 here to testify, to testify about the suffering and the
16 ordeal you have been through. I do hope that you will
17 be able to have a number of nice weekends once you come
18 back to your country. Thank you once again for coming
19 here to testify, and the usher will now help you out of
20 the courtroom.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very
22 much, Your Honours. I was really delighted to testify
23 here, and I was impressed by the attitude of all of the
24 participants here in the courtroom. Thank you very
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
3 the next witness, is he a protected witness? No. But
4 perhaps this would be a convenient time to make the
5 break. So do not call him in yet. I'm just wondering
6 if --
7 MR. HARMON: I'm informed by Mr. McCloskey,
8 who will lead the next witness, that he is a protected
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 What kind of protection does he seek?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Face distortion and no name.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And why is
14 he seeking protection, Mr. McCloskey?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: He told me that his -- he's
16 got a large family that would like to move back to the
17 area some day and that he's concerned about his family
18 and the name.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Does
20 the Defence agree with the protective measures for the
21 witness? Mr. Petrusic?
22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] In principle,
23 we do agree in the case of protective measures, but we
24 do agree, we have no objection against protective
25 measures here, except that now it occurs to me perhaps
1 it might be good to contact, to communicate, before the
2 witness comes in, but that, again, is a matter between
3 the Prosecution and the Defence. So before a witness
4 comes in perhaps -- before whatever witness comes in,
5 we should like to have contact with the Prosecution and
6 discuss it. But in this case, yes, we have no
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Will,
9 then, the counsel for the Prosecution, bear this in
10 mind, and keep in contact with the Defence.
11 We shall now make a 20-minute break, and in
12 order to expedite matters, I should like to ask
13 Mr. Dubuisson to bring in the witness before the Judges
14 have entered the courtroom. A 20-minute break.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 [The accused entered court]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness E,
20 can you hear me?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
23 Witness E, we shall now go into closed session so that
24 we can regulate the question of identity of the
1 Are we in closed session?
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, we are
3 in closed session.
4 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
11 Mr. Dubuisson.
12 Witness E, thank you for coming here. As you
13 know, we have taken all the measures to protect you.
14 We shall not be pronouncing your name and we shall call
15 you Witness E. Please make yourself comfortable. Now,
16 Witness E, you will answer questions which the
17 Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey, will put to you.
18 Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 WITNESS: WITNESS E
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:
23 Q. Witness E, how are you this morning?
24 A. Fine. Fine, thank you.
25 Q. Are you a little bit nervous?
1 A. Well, I couldn't but be nervous.
2 Q. I'll be asking you some questions, and so
3 will the Defence and so will the Court, and we
4 shouldn't be here too long.
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Can you tell us where you were born?
7 A. In Subin.
8 Q. And when were you born? What's your date of
10 A. (redacted)
11 Q. And was Subin in the Srebrenica opstina?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. And did you grow up around there?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. And what was your occupation?
16 A. (redacted)
17 Q. Did you do woodcutting?
18 A. Yes, in the woods.
19 Q. Where did you live on July 11th, the day that
20 Srebrenica fell to the Bosnian Serb army?
21 A. In Srebrenica.
22 Q. Who you did you live with?
23 A. With my family; (redacted)
25 Q. What did you do on July 11th?
1 A. When the Serb troops attacked, we left and
2 went to UNPROFOR, near the petrol station.
3 Q. And then where did you go?
4 A. And from there, we headed for Potocari.
5 Q. And was that with your group, (redacted)
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what about your son?
9 A. He stayed behind in Srebrenica, and I don't
10 know where he went.
11 Q. What were the ages of your daughters? Just
12 roughly what was the age range of your daughters?
13 A. (redacted)
16 Q. How about your grandchildren? About how old
17 were they?
18 A. The eldest one was three years old.
19 Q. When you got to Potocari, where did you go?
20 A. We went to the hangar.
21 Q. Which one of the hangars did you go to?
22 A. The one that belonged to Transport, for
23 car/truck washing, and things like that.
24 Q. Was that the bus company Transport or the
25 Express Bus Compound?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you spend the night there?
3 A. We did, on the 11th.
4 Q. On the 12th, what did you do, the next day?
5 A. On the 12th, I went down from the place where
6 they cleaned and washed buses and cars. There were
7 about 500 of us in that hangar, and until sometime,
8 4.00 or 5.00 in the afternoon, we --
9 Q. Did you see Serb soldiers at any time while
10 you were in that hangar?
11 A. Yes. What's his name? Milisav Gavric
12 entered from the opposite side into the hangar. And
13 Ibran Mustafic and Hamid, he went to them and tapped
14 them on their shoulder, and they talked. I don't know
15 what they talked about really. And then they left.
16 Q. Now, how did you know Milisav Gavric?
17 A. Milisav Gavric was with the police, and he
18 came for some training with the forestry company before
19 he changed his mind and went to work for the police.
20 Q. So he worked for the police before the war;
21 is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That day that you saw him in the hangar, can
24 you describe what he was wearing?
25 A. He had something like blue, like SMB, I
1 cannot tell you exactly what, but I think he had that
2 kind of clothing.
3 Q. Okay. Did you see any other Bosnian Serbs
4 come into the hangar besides Milisav Gavric that day?
5 A. No, I did not see anyone come in or leave the
6 hangar. When Milisav left, when he was gone, then
7 after some time ten minutes, he came back, Milisav
8 Gavric and Mladic came, and they took Ibran and Hamid
9 and took them away.
10 Q. And then what did you do?
11 A. I went to the door straight away. People in
12 the hangar were puzzled. And we came out, and when I
13 came to the stairs, then I saw some Serb troops, some
14 seven or eight soldiers. And we crossed the bridge and
15 boarded old buses or trucks -- I mean trailers, and
16 that is where I spent the night with my family.
17 Q. Why did you take your family to these old
18 trailers or buses?
19 A. Well, just in case, you know, all sorts of
20 things happen. If it rained, that was one thing.
21 Secondly, to shelter my family if anything happened.
22 Q. Why did you want them out of that hangar?
23 A. Well, because we were afraid. We didn't know
24 what might come to pass that night.
25 Q. Were these old buses that you're talking
1 about, were they running, or were they just derelict?
2 A. No. No, they were broken buses, derelict,
4 Q. Did you have the whole family, all your
5 daughters and your grandchildren and your wife, with
6 you in one of those structures?
7 A. Yes, all of us, all of us in that ancient
8 truck trailer. Everybody was in there.
9 Q. Where was this truck trailer in relation to
10 the bus hangar?
11 A. Well, right as you come out from the hangar
12 and cross the bridge, closer to the asphalt, that's
13 where it was.
14 Q. So it was between the asphalt road and the
15 bus hangar?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was that night like? Can you describe
18 that night in that structure?
19 A. Oh, yes, how we spent the night, I can tell
20 you. It was so horrible that you couldn't -- you
21 couldn't really go down on the ground because of the
22 screams, because of the noise, because of the havoc.
23 You couldn't really have a moment's peace from fear and
25 Q. What did you do when morning came?
1 A. When the day broke, I got up to go down to
2 the stream, to relieve myself, and when I crossed that
3 road, which was behind the trailer, down to the stream,
4 I looked and saw 11 dead, and I started back, but then
5 I stopped again because I was so frightened, and I
6 thought, "Well, let's see who that is." And when I
7 looked, I saw (redacted) dead, six women and
8 five men. Then I went back up to the hangar and went
9 to the trailer, and I immediately took my children and
10 my wife and said, "Let's get ready and go. I'm not
11 spending another night here."
12 Q. Can you tell us about how far away this
13 little creek was from where you were in the -- where
14 you'd spent the night in this structure?
15 A. About ten metres, not more than that.
16 Q. And when you came back and found your family,
17 what did you do?
18 A. The children and the wife, that is, the
19 family of mine, I told them to get ready and go to the
20 asphalt and then to go on to the roadblock, to the
21 ramp, and see how far we can get.
22 Q. And did you do that?
23 A. Yes, I did that. We started at 6.00 and we
24 came out onto the asphalt, and until 9.15, we could not
25 reach the ramp. At quarter past nine, we arrived at
1 the ramp.
2 Q. Was the ramp that you described near where
3 people were getting on the buses?
4 A. Yes, it was right up there, and to the right
5 where buses and trucks to transport people, such as
6 population and the like.
7 Q. What happened when you got your family to
8 that area?
9 A. When I arrived at the ramp, there were two
10 Serb soldiers and to answer, next to the APCs where the
11 rope was tied. And they opened it. I passed, we
12 passed, and my neighbour (redacted) followed but he was
13 stopped right there, he was separated, and I went
15 Q. Who separated him?
16 A. A Serb soldier.
17 Q. Was your brother anywhere near the vicinity
18 at the time?
19 A. Right exactly behind (redacted) is where he was,
20 and he was also separated there.
21 Q. Have you seen your neighbour (redacted) or your
22 brother since that day?
23 A. Never again.
24 Q. And then what happened?
25 A. And from there I started towards the buses.
1 First there were trucks, then there were buses parked,
2 and I reached the third truck and a Serb soldier waved
3 a hand at me and said, "The first bus." And I went on,
4 down the asphalt road, and then some time later, I
5 looked to my left and on the left side I saw Sreten and
6 his uncle, and that one from the Izvoriste, what's his
7 name, Maksimovic, there, and with him was Mikinovac
8 from Polomovci. And they were talking next to the
9 asphalt, on the left-hand side, and I passed by them
10 and got to the bus.
11 Q. How did you know Sreten?
12 A. Oh, well, I knew Sreten (redacted)
17 Q. About how old was Sreten at the time?
18 A. About 40.
19 Q. And what was Sreten's father's name?
20 A. Ilija.
21 Q. And where was Ilija known to be from?
22 A. I did not see Ilija there.
23 Q. I understand that. But can you just tell me,
24 if you know, where Ilija was from?
25 A. From Spat.
1 Q. Is there anything unique about Ilija's
3 A. Well, he had a long moustache hanging down.
4 He was paying to have a moustache -- to wear a
5 moustache like this. So one could always recognise
6 him. Whoever knew him could recognise him anywhere.
7 Q. And do you know Sreten's last name now?
8 A. I don't remember. I can't remember. I've
9 forgotten that. I knew that but I've forgotten that.
10 Q. And what was Sreten wearing at the time you
11 saw him by the buses?
12 A. A military uniform.
13 Q. And could you tell what he was doing?
14 A. He was just standing and talking to his -- to
15 other people.
16 Q. These other people you described, were they
17 in uniform also?
18 A. In uniforms also, and they were talking. For
19 instance, I passed by as they were talking.
20 Q. And what did you do as you passed by?
21 A. I got to the bus, I went onto the bus, and I
22 sat there. When a young man appeared and he wanted to
23 board the bus, and the driver wouldn't open the door to
24 him, indicating with his hand to go to the left, to
25 where the driver's window is. And this man went to the
1 driver's window and they talked about something, but I
2 couldn't hear what they were talking about. And then
3 he passed by the bus and I recognised him as Sreten's
5 Q. What was Sreten's son wearing?
6 A. A uniform also.
7 Q. Okay. And then what happened?
8 A. And then we waited for the buses. The buses
9 switched on but we did not start, but after about half
10 an hour, we started to Bratunac.
11 Q. Were there any other men on your bus?
12 A. Yes, there were seven others. I was the
14 Q. Do you know about how old the other seven
16 A. Well, they were all my senior.
17 Q. And where did the bus go when it finally
19 A. It started towards Bratunac.
20 Q. And where did it go after Bratunac?
21 A. And then on to Kravica, Glogova, Kravica.
22 Q. And did you see anything along the way in
23 this area?
24 A. No, nothing until we reached Kravica.
25 Q. Then what did you see at Kravica?
1 A. When we arrived in Kravica, to my left, I saw
2 our men dead, and then some ten metres further on, we
3 saw our men in front of the bus with their hands like
4 this [indicates], behind their neck, and that they were
5 moving towards buses. Then we moved on another 50
6 metres, and a small flag was put up and the bus
7 stopped. The driver wouldn't stop, and he raised this
8 little flag three times, and then he opened just one
9 part of the door.
10 Q. Okay. If I can interrupt you for one
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, the witness
13 said that he saw "our men with their hands behind their
14 neck," and he put his hands behind his neck briefly, as
15 we can all imagine.
16 Q. Now, are you Muslim by faith?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you refer to "our men," you're referring
19 to Muslim men?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. About how many Muslim men did you see with
22 their hands behind their necks?
23 A. There must have been about 100, if not more
24 than that.
25 Q. What were they doing?
1 A. I don't know what they were doing. They had
2 been captured and brought there.
3 Q. Were they walking or were they sitting, or
4 how did you actually see them?
5 A. They were walking towards the bus.
6 Q. And then what happened?
7 A. Then we passed by those men, they stayed
8 behind, and then some ten metres on, to the right,
9 there were about 20 or 30 men standing and some three
10 or four Serb soldiers standing by them. And --
11 Q. So those 20 or 30 men you saw standing, were
12 those Muslim men?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And then what else did you see?
15 A. And I only saw the armament, I saw a tank and
16 three armoured vehicles, which were covered there. I
17 couldn't really see which ones were they. And on our
18 way between Kravica and Konjevic Polje, I saw yet
19 another man of ours dead, next to the asphalt on the
20 left-hand side, and then I saw nothing else until we
21 reached Konjevic Polje.
22 Q. When you reached the intersection near
23 Konjevic Polje, which way did the bus turn?
24 A. Left.
25 Q. Towards -- what villages are in that
2 A. Towards Nova Kasaba, that's where we went.
3 And when I looked to my left, above Taran's cafe, in
4 his meadow, there were 200 or 300 of our men lying
5 down, and there were about 10, or maybe 20 Serb
6 soldiers walking around them.
7 Q. About how long in distance after you turned
8 left towards Nova Kasaba did you see --
9 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. These men lying
10 down. He means dead or lying down? What is the
11 meaning of "lying down"?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY:
13 Q. Could you clarify your answer for the Judge?
14 A. Alive. Alive. They waved at us. They were
16 Q. And about how far after you turned left at
17 the intersection did you see these men in this meadow?
18 A. Well, about ten metres from Taran's cafe,
19 they were right there, on the left-hand side.
20 Q. Okay. And where did you go after that?
21 A. Then we headed for Nova Kasaba and Milici and
22 Vlasenica, and we arrived in Tisca and got off the
24 Q. And then did you and your family walk to
1 A. Yes. Seven kilometres from Tisca to Kladanj
2 on foot, I and my whole family.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
6 very much, Mr. McCloskey.
7 Witness E, you are now going to be asked
8 questions that will be put to you by the Defence. I
9 think that it is going to be Mr. Visnjic who will
10 cross-examine you.
11 Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:
13 Q. Good morning, Witness E.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. In your statement, you said that you had
16 arrived in Srebrenica on the 11th of July.
17 A. I left Srebrenica for Potocari on the 11th of
19 Q. Could you please be more precise and tell us
20 what exactly was happening on that first night in
21 Potocari, between the 11th and the 12th? Were there
22 any specific events?
23 A. No, there were no special events, as far as I
24 can remember.
25 Q. You said that on the 11th of July, your son
1 did not go with you.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know where he went?
4 A. I don't know. He simply stayed behind, and I
5 don't know what happened with him later on.
6 Q. Witness E, you described an event involving
7 Gavric and Mladic. They came to the hangar, and they
8 were looking for Ibrahim Mustafic. Who is Ibrahim
10 A. He is a man from Potocari. He's a local
11 person, and I didn't know anything else about him.
12 Q. Were Gavric and Mladic alone, or was there
13 anyone else with them when they came to get Mustafic?
14 A. There were two soldiers standing on the
15 stairs at the moment they came in, and later on those
16 two soldiers went with them. But I don't know who they
18 Q. How far was that stairway from the spot where
19 Ibran was?
20 A. Well, the stairs were at the entrance of the
21 hangar. There was a corridor without any opening, but
22 I couldn't tell you exactly how far it was from us.
23 Q. More than 20 metres perhaps?
24 A. Well, yes, around 20 metres. Between 20 and
25 25 metres.
1 Q. When you say "Mladic," you refer to General
2 Ratko Mladic?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Did Mladic say anything when they came to get
5 Ibrahim Mustafic?
6 A. I didn't hear anything. Whether he told him
7 something or not, I couldn't -- I couldn't exactly tell
9 Q. You said that something had happened on the
10 night between the 12th and the 13th of July, and I
11 should like to ask you a question about that.
12 You said you had seen 11 bodies in the water;
13 is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that is correct. I'm not saying
15 anything I'm not sure about.
16 Q. Could you be more specific as to the time
17 when you saw that?
18 A. It was about 5.30 a.m. when I saw them.
19 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
20 A. I could only recognise my neighbour, (redacted)
22 Q. Could you conclude anything about the cause
23 of their deaths?
24 A. No, I couldn't. I didn't see who had killed
25 them, so I couldn't tell you anything about the cause
1 of their death.
2 Q. Witness E, you gave statements to the
3 Tribunal and to the Commission for Gathering Facts on
4 War Crimes in the Territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina on a
5 previous occasion. Do you remember anything about
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] If I could
9 please show the statement to the witness, the statement
10 he gave on a previous occasion. This is the statement
11 given by the witness to the State Commission for
12 Gathering Facts on War Crimes.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me. This witness will
14 not be able to read, so it may be best if you read
15 particular portions to him. He apparently left his
16 glasses back at home.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit D3.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] As far as I
19 understood, Mr. McCloskey, the witness cannot read. So
20 what is actually the case? Is it because he cannot
21 read at the moment, or is it because he doesn't read at
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I know he cannot read because
24 he cannot see very well. He has told me he can read.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
1 then. Let us bear this fact in mind, Mr. Visnjic. I
2 think you had better read the statement to the witness,
3 and then the witness will give you his answer.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] The statement
5 is a handwritten document, Mr. President.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I'm sorry to
7 interrupt you, but let me please draw your attention to
8 the confidential character of the document, which
9 contains the name of the witness as well. So we should
10 avoid reading any identifying elements of this witness,
11 or perhaps we could go into a private session for
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
14 very much, Mr. Dubuisson.
15 In this statement, Mr. Visnjic, are you going
16 to mention the name of the witness or not?
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Well, the name
18 is mentioned in this statement, but it's not mentioned
19 in the paragraph I'm about to read. His name is not
20 contained in this particular paragraph. However, the
21 fact that the statement was given by him is stated in
22 this statement. His name is on the statement but not
23 in the relevant paragraph.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I'm
25 right, this means that even if the statement contains
1 the witness's name, it will have to be tendered under
2 seal. Am I right, Mr. Dubuisson?
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, you're
4 right, Your Honour. I suppose that Mr. Visnjic will
5 ask for this document to be filed as a confidential
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
8 then. Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson. You may continue,
9 Mr. Visnjic.
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
12 Q. I'm interested in page 4 of the
13 Serbo-Croatian version of the statement, that is, the
14 last portion of the paragraph, last portion of the
15 text, on page 3 in the English version.
16 The text is as follows: Once again, I will
17 be reading from the fourth line of page 4 of the
18 Serbo-Croatian text.
19 "Sreten is about 30 years old. His cousin
20 is a little younger. He slit the throats of 13 people
21 in Tengara and threw them in the Drina River. I saw
22 them slaughter 11 people with my own eyes, and I saw
23 Sreten. They were slaughtering people who were
24 standing up. They just passed by and slit their
25 throats with a knife. There were three more
1 individuals besides Sreten. Of the victims, I know
4 (redacted). Of the victims, there were five men and six
5 women. There were no children. They used black army
6 knives for the killing."
7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
8 this is a statement which this witness gave on the
9 19th -- that is, on the 17th of August, 1995,
10 immediately after the relevant events.
11 Q. Witness E, could you please tell me whether
12 the text that I have just read to you is correct or
14 A. No, sir. I never gave such a statement. I
15 know what I said, and I'm giving the same testimony
16 here today. I cannot confirm that statement as my
18 Q. Witness E, from what the Prosecutor has told
19 us, I can conclude that you have some trouble with your
21 A. Yes, I do. I can't see very well. I have
22 had this problem for two or three years now.
23 Q. Could you please tell me when the situation
24 in respect of your sight worsened?
25 A. Two or three years ago.
1 Q. So at the time you gave this statement, in
2 1995, you could see very well?
3 A. Yes, I could.
4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
5 we are in a situation here. I cannot show him his
6 signature, the one that is on this particular
7 statement, and I cannot ask him questions about it. I
8 cannot find out whether this, indeed, is his signature
9 because he doesn't have glasses. However, I should
10 perhaps ask Witness E whether he remembers giving this
11 statement to the said State Commission.
12 A. I don't remember ever giving such a
13 statement. As so what is contained in there, I don't
15 Q. Witness E, do you remember how many
16 statements you have given so far?
17 A. I remember giving a statement on two
19 Q. Do you remember when you gave the first one?
20 A. No, I don't remember that.
21 Q. Do you remember who you gave this statement
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Witness E, at the end of this particular
25 statement, one can see the following words: "Statement
1 given by," then we can see your name, and then just
2 below your name, we can read "The witness cannot see."
3 A. Well, I'm telling you --
4 Q. This statement was given on 17th of August,
6 A. In 1995, sir, I could see. My sight got
7 worse within the past two or three years.
8 Q. Witness E, you told us you had worked as a
10 A. Yes, I had.
11 Q. Does it mean that you spent a great deal of
12 time in nature, in the woods?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Woodcutters usually work during summertime.
15 A. I don't understand your question.
16 Q. When is the busiest period of the year for
17 you as a woodcutter?
18 A. Well, we cut wood both in winter time and
19 summer time. The season was always good.
20 Q. Will you tell me about the time of the day
21 when it dawns in your country?
22 A. Well, I forgot about that. I don't know.
23 Q. Witness E, do you remember giving a statement
24 to the investigator of the Tribunal in October 1998?
25 A. No. No, I don't remember. I don't remember
1 about giving statements to anyone.
2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Let me
3 introduce this. This is a statement given by the
4 witness to the investigators of the Tribunal in October
5 1998. This is the English version. I apologise to the
6 B/C/S booth, I don't have that one, but I shall try to
7 be as brief as possible.
8 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This is
9 marked as D4.
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I'm referring to the same event; that is, the
12 one you described to this Chamber when you saw 11
13 bodies in the water, six women and five men, because
14 we're in the same situation as with the previous
15 statement. I shall read the relevant portion to you.
16 "Early in the morning, around 3.00 in the
17 morning, I went over to the creek to urinate and I
18 counted 11 bodies, six women and five men, lying in the
19 creek. I recognised (redacted) among them. All of them had
20 been stabbed at the side of their throat. Their
21 throats were not cut. I have never told (redacted) family
22 that I saw him there."
23 Witness E, is this correct, what I have just
24 read out?
25 A. I cannot confirm anything as to the issue
1 with the families. It's a very sad thing, and you
2 cannot speak about that.
3 Q. Is it true that you went to the creek to
4 urinate around 3.00 in the morning?
5 A. No, I told you when I went to urinate. I
6 don't know about this statement. I don't know who
7 wrote this statement.
8 Q. Witness E, did you sign this statement that
9 was taken on the 10th of October, 1998?
10 A. I don't know. I don't remember that.
11 Q. Witness E, could you be more specific about
12 your problems with your sight? Is it that you cannot
13 see very well?
14 A. I cannot see very well, that is the case. It
15 is all foggy in front of my eyes. It's very difficult
16 for me to make out a silhouette in front of me.
17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
18 this concludes my cross-examination. Thank you.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
20 Mr. McCloskey, any re-examination?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Judge Fouad
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness E.
1 A. Good morning.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Can you see me?
3 A. I can hardly see you. I mean, it's very
4 difficult for me to see you.
5 JUDGE RIAD: When did you start having these
6 problems of not seeing? Do you remember?
7 A. Well, during the past two years, I started
8 having this problem. There are always tears in my
9 eyes, and I have problems with my sight. I can't see
10 very well now.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Was it the result of any
12 accident or disease? Do you remember?
13 A. No, it's not a disease. I connect this
14 problem with all the psychological problems that I
16 JUDGE RIAD: Do you also have memory
18 A. Yes. Yes, I do. I often have headaches and
19 I have memory problems. It's very difficult for me to
20 remember things.
21 JUDGE RIAD: But you remember the certain
22 things which you told us; is that correct?
23 A. Well, these are the things that I remember
24 very well, but if you ask me about things happening
25 now, sometimes I tend to forget them within two or
1 three hours.
2 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. For instance, you forgot
3 that you signed the statement which you gave -- which
4 apparently you gave to the investigators of this
5 Tribunal. You forgot that completely.
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 JUDGE RIAD: And you forgot what was in it
8 too, because usually you meet the investigators. Did
9 you also forget meeting them? I beg your pardon? You
10 forgot meeting the investigators and telling them
12 A. You mean here, after I've arrived here?
13 JUDGE RIAD: No. On 10 October 1998, in
14 1998, two years ago.
15 A. No. No, I don't remember. I don't remember
16 being with an investigator.
17 JUDGE RIAD: Anyhow, in the statement which
18 you don't remember, you said partly the same thing you
19 said today, that you saw down the stream 11 dead
20 persons, but in the statement, you were more explicit,
21 you said there were six women and five men, stabbed at
22 the side of the throat. So you had more details. But
23 the fact remains that you mentioned the same number,
24 which is 11 dead persons. Do you remember that
25 clearly, that there were 11 dead persons?
1 A. Yes, I remember 11. There were 11 of them,
2 six women and five men. I remember that very well.
3 JUDGE RIAD: Well, then, the statement was
4 not wrong, because you are repeating it today. And
5 were they also stabbed in the side of the neck?
6 A. Yes, they were. In the neck, that's where
7 they were stabbed. I know about that, I do remember
9 JUDGE RIAD: You do remember that. And what
10 kind of women were they? Were they dressed in uniform,
11 in military uniform, or were they just housewives?
12 A. Housewives. Housewives. Not a single one of
13 them wore a uniform.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned also that you
15 saw 100 persons or more with their hands tied behind
16 their neck, walking to the bus. Do you remember that?
17 A. Yes, I remember that. I remember seeing
19 JUDGE RIAD: And did you know anybody among
21 A. No, I couldn't recognise anyone because, you
22 know, the bus was moving and I had no time to recognise
23 anyone. I was on the bus and I just couldn't recognise
25 JUDGE RIAD: Just something in passing. You
1 mentioned that you did not see -- after you were
2 stopped by two soldiers, and you passed and your
3 brother and your neighbour (redacted) did not pass. Did
4 you see them after that? Did you hear about them?
5 A. No, no, I didn't hear or see anything.
6 JUDGE RIAD: And your brother was a military
7 man, and your neighbour (redacted), were they fighting
8 with the BiH?
9 A. No, no, they were not fighting. My brother
10 was retired, and this neighbour of mine also worked in
11 the same company where I worked, for the forestry.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
14 Judge Riad.
15 Judge Wald.
16 JUDGE WALD: I have just one question,
17 Witness E. When Milisav Gavric gave into the hangar
18 with General Mladic, was he wearing some kind of
19 uniform? Gavric, was Gavric --
20 A. Gavric, I told you, he had a uniform, but I
21 couldn't be more specific. It was blue or olive drab
22 in colour. I couldn't tell you exactly. And Mladic,
23 he was wearing civilian clothing.
24 JUDGE WALD: Mladic was wearing civilian.
25 And Gavric, you testified, I believe, was from around
1 Srebrenica. He had worked in Srebrenica. That's how
2 you knew him before; right?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him. I told you that he
4 was doing his internship in my company. And then after
5 that, he went to school, and later on he joined the
7 JUDGE WALD: And Srebrenica.
8 A. I don't know where Gavric is from. I don't
9 know where he was born.
10 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness E,
12 do you remember how many times you gave a statement?
13 A. I believe I gave a statement on two
14 occasions. This is my recollection of the things. Two
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you
17 remember who you gave these statements to?
18 A. Well, that, I don't remember. I forgot.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness E,
20 can you read and write?
21 A. Well, I could write some Cyrillic script, but
22 the thing is, I cannot see very well.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When you
24 were giving your statements, do you remember whether
25 you signed them or not?
1 A. I don't remember whether I signed them or
2 not. I couldn't tell you about that. I'm afraid I
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you
5 remember where exactly you gave those statements?
6 A. Once, I believe that I gave a statement in
7 Zivinice, and the other one I think I gave it in Tuzla,
8 if my memory serves me right.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness E,
10 as regards the statement that you gave in Tuzla, do you
11 remember more or less the time when you gave that
12 particular statement?
13 A. No. No, I cannot remember the time. I
14 cannot remember that.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but
16 perhaps you remember you were in Tuzla; right?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But how
19 long had you been there?
20 A. You mean after I had arrived?
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 A. I don't know. I don't remember that.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You told us
24 that you had lived in Srebrenica, that you were there
25 during the fall of Srebrenica.
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 So how did you reach Tuzla?
4 A. By bus.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So what I
6 would like to know is how much time had elapsed between
7 your arrival in Tuzla and the time when you gave the
9 A. No, I forgot. I couldn't tell you that. I
10 don't know how much time had elapsed between my arrival
11 from Srebrenica and my giving that statement. I
12 couldn't tell you that, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness E,
14 let me try to help you. Was it one day, one month, one
15 year after your arrival?
16 A. Well, more than a month. Perhaps a year
17 since I arrived. But apart from that, I don't
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Another
20 question, Witness E. Were you alone or were you in the
21 company of somebody when you gave the statement?
22 A. I was alone. I remember that. I remember I
23 was all by myself when I made the statement.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And the
25 authorities, the body that took your statement, was it
1 only one person there, or were there several
3 A. There was one person who was there when they
4 took my statement. I remember that. I was sitting at
5 the table, and it stuck in my mind: there was one
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you
8 remember where, in which building, in what kind of
9 place did you make the statement in Tuzla?
10 A. I don't know that. I couldn't tell you
11 that. I don't remember. It's not in my mind anymore.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
13 Witness E. We have no further questions. Thank you
14 very much for making this effort and giving your
15 evidence here. Thank you. And we now wish you a
16 happy, safe journey home.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
20 perhaps it is time for a break, or shall we proceed, as
21 we did before?
22 MR. HARMON: May I take advantage,
23 Mr. President, of a closed session, if it -- is it
24 still closed, Mr. Dubuisson?
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] No. No, we
1 are in open session.
2 MR. HARMON: Before we proceed with the next
3 witness, or if the Court wishes to have a break, we can
4 do either, but I'd like to inform the Chamber of a
5 misrepresentation that I made to the Chamber in respect
6 of certain statements. And if I could go into closed
7 session, I can inform the Chamber of some additional
8 recent information that I got.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
10 Mr. Harmon, you can speak openly, but I think we have
11 to go into closed session. Are we? No. Excuse me.
12 Let's organise things slightly differently. Let us
13 first address things that we can address in open
14 session and then go into closed session, in order not
15 to have to go back and forward. So our next witness.
16 MR. HARMON: Our next witness is open; there
17 are no protections requested.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
19 Mr. Harmon.
20 Mr. Visnjic, do you want to tender Exhibits 3
21 and 4?
22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
23 Mr. President.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I do not
25 know what the parties think, but exhibits should be
1 tendered by deleting, by removing, the name of the
2 witness, because the contents of the statement may be
3 public, and the protection covers only the protection
4 of the witness. So that these statements should be
5 edited -- that is, the witness's name should be deleted
6 -- and having done that, you may tender it under
8 What do you think, Mr. Visnjic?
9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I agree,
10 Mr. President.
11 MR. HARMON: Yes. Under seal for both
12 exhibits is fine.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wasn't
14 saying under seal; I was saying to tender them
15 publicly, not under seal. But in order to protect the
16 witness, we only need to strike out the name of the
17 witness, which appears in the statement, who gave this
18 statement. So the document will be accessible to the
19 public, but the objective is to protect the witness and
20 identity of the witness. So by producing this exhibit,
21 one has to eliminate, to strike out the name, to redact
22 the name, and the witness -- in this way, the document
23 will not become damaging to the witness and then the
24 document will become public.
25 Do we understand that, Mr. Visnjic?
1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
2 Mr. President, I agree.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
4 Mr. Harmon?
5 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have not
6 reviewed either of those statements, but oftentimes in
7 the statement there is identifying information other
8 than the name that needs to be redacted from the
9 statement. He might state the name of his wife or the
10 name of his children, or other information that can be
11 equally harmful to a witness who has sought the
12 protection of this Chamber. That's why my suggestion
13 would be that the statement be placed under seal or,
14 alternatively, we have an opportunity to review it, to
15 redact, identifying information, and then it could be
16 made public.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
18 Mr. Harmon. You will then read through the statement
19 from the point of view of the witness's protection, and
20 you will then tell us which are the parts which need to
21 be redacted, and after that, the document will be
22 tendered. That is the only concern of the Chamber,
23 because our hearings are open, and that is a matter of
24 principle. However, if we have a statement of a
25 protected witness, if we protect the witness and make
1 the document public, then we should do so. So,
2 Mr. Harmon, you will read the statement and you will
3 communicate it to the Defence, and the Chamber will
4 then see that it is admitted with the redactions that
5 you have made.
6 Thank you very much. And now we shall move
7 briefly into a closed session, because Mr. Harmon has a
8 matter to raise.
9 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we are
11 in open session so as to announce that the next witness
12 will be giving his evidence in open session, and we
13 shall now make a break. We do need a short rest, and
14 Mr. Visnjic can read the statement so as to prepare for
15 cross-examination. So a 20-minute break.
16 --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
20 afternoon, Witness Vaasen. Could you please stand up?
21 [The witness stands]
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
23 very much. You are now going to read the solemn
24 declaration, which the usher has already given to you,
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 You may be seated.
6 I think I should also hear the solemn
7 declaration of our interpreter. Madam, could you
8 please read out the solemn declaration?
9 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I
10 will do so faithfully, independently, impartially, and
11 with full respect for the duty of confidentiality.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 You may be seated.
14 Witness Vaasen, the Tribunal is grateful for
15 your appearance here. You are now going to answer
16 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley, who is
17 representing the Prosecution here.
18 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.
19 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,
20 Your Honours, counsel. In order to clarify matters
21 concerning the interpreter who is sitting to the right
22 of Mr. Vaasen, Mr. Vaasen will testify in the English
23 language. His English is excellent. He simply
24 requires the presence of an interpreter in case there
25 is anything at any point he doesn't understand in
1 respect of questions that I put to him or questions,
2 indeed, put by my learned friends, the Defence.
3 WITNESS: DAVID VAASEN
4 Examined by Mr. Cayley:
5 Q. Your full name is David Vaasen; is that
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. If I can spell that for the purposes of the
9 transcript, that's V-a-a-s-e-n. Is that the correct
10 spelling of your name?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. I think you are now 28 years of age?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And you are Dutch by nationality.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. I think you are presently a lance corporal in
17 the Air Mobile Battalion of the Dutch army.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. I think your specialisation in the army is
20 that you are a medical orderly. You're a medic; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. I want you to cast your mind back to July of
24 1995, when I think you were then a private first class;
25 is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I think you were also performing the duties
3 of a medical orderly, a medic.
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And that was with DutchBat III, based again
6 in the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. And I think at the time you were 23 years of
9 age; is that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, Corporal Vaasen, at the beginning of
12 July of 1995, where were you based?
13 A. I was at an observation post called Mike.
14 Q. Now, next to you you'll see a large map.
15 MR. CAYLEY: I wonder, Mr. Usher, if that map
16 could be brought in so the witness can more easily see
18 Q. If you could just point to the Judges your
19 location at that time.
20 A. [Indicates].
21 Q. I see. So that was your location in the
22 beginning of July 1995. And if the record can show
23 that the witness is pointing, or did point to
24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E and is indicating Observation
25 Post Mike, which is an orange circle marked "M" on the
1 grey line which delineates the Srebrenica enclave.
2 Thank you very much, Corporal Vaasen. You
3 can take a seat.
4 Can you tell the Judges what you recall of
5 events at the beginning of July whilst you were located
6 at Observation Post Mike?
7 A. Well, first of all, the last couple of days
8 were very intense. We had some mortar fire near our
9 observation post. The first couple of days were one,
10 maybe two single shells, and they put it up more and
11 more every day. So we had to stay in the bunker for
12 almost three days, and after that, we were called by
13 the Serbs to come out and to leave our observation
15 Q. Please continue.
16 A. They shouted at us and used also a lot of
17 things to make themselves clear that we had to move
18 away from our observation post because they were going
19 to bomb it with mortars.
20 Q. Now, you've just said in your evidence that
21 "we had some mortar fire near our observation post."
22 Who, to your knowledge, fired those mortars at
23 Observation Post Mike?
24 A. That was the Serb army.
25 Q. Now, you've just stated that the Serbs asked
1 you to withdraw because they threatened you with more
2 mortar fire. What did your unit that was based at
3 OP Mike do after those threats were made?
4 A. First, our group commander took the radio and
5 gave all the messages through to the base and Potocari,
6 and then they told us later to withdraw ourselves to
7 about 100 metres nearby the village Jaglici, and to
8 stay up there.
9 Q. Could you indicate on Prosecution Exhibit 1E
10 the village, if it's marked on that map, to which you
12 A. Yes, sir. Jaglici [Indicates], here it is.
13 MR. CAYLEY: If the camera could zoom in,
14 because I can't see through the lectern there. Thank
15 you. Let the record show that the witness is
16 indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E to the village
17 called Jaglici.
18 Q. If you could take a seat again, Corporal
20 Could you tell the Judges what happened when
21 you got to Jaglici?
22 A. When we arrived at Jaglici, we were stopped
23 by the Muslim army. They were under Captain Enwer, and
24 they forced us to stay there, even with violence if
25 necessary, and we were going to go back to our base.
1 Q. Why did they want you to stay in Jaglici?
2 Why did, as you term it, the Muslim army want you to
3 stay in Jaglici?
4 A. Well, first of all, because we were the UN
5 army there, and also for their protection, and also to
6 use our equipment, if it's necessary, against the Serb
8 Q. When you say "an army," when you first got to
9 Jaglici, how many Muslim soldiers did you see with
10 Captain Enwer?
11 A. Well, first of all, he was a local officer,
12 he was the local commander there, and there were also
13 Muslim soldiers of -- I can't recall now but from the
14 82nd Muslim Brigade -- that's how they called
15 themselves -- and there were approximately about 30,
16 40 Muslim soldiers there.
17 Q. From your recollection, do you recall how
18 they were armed?
19 A. Well, not so good.
20 Q. Now, you're a professional soldier. We are
21 not. If you could explain to the Judges what you mean
22 by "not so good"?
23 A. Well, some of them had guns, pistols, and
24 they didn't have enough ammunition to fight for their
1 Q. So these Muslim soldiers essentially wished
2 you to remain in Jaglici. How long did you remain in
4 A. For three days.
5 Q. At the end of three days, what happened?
6 A. Sorry. It was so that we tried to go away
7 there. Our group commander, he was speaking to Captain
8 Enwer, the local commander, and he made an arrangement
9 that we could go back to our base in Potocari but we
10 had to take women, children, and older people with us.
11 Q. You say that you had to take -- that Captain
12 Enwer asked you to take women, children, and older
13 people with you. Where were these women, children, and
14 older people from?
15 A. They were, first of all, from Jaglici and
16 also from other houses near Jaglici.
17 Q. So at the end of this three-day period, you
18 make your way back to Potocari. Can you tell the
19 Judges about that journey back to Potocari?
20 A. Well, when we started to drive back to our
21 base, we had people behind our APC, armoured personnel
22 carrier, also on our armoured personnel carrier, and
23 the crowd went larger and larger by the second because
24 there also came Muslim people from out of the
25 mountains, and they joined us.
1 Q. Can you, from your recollection, tell the
2 Judges what state those people were in?
3 A. They were in very bad shape. They didn't
4 have any water, no food, hardly any clothes. They were
5 terrified, you could see it, and it was horrible.
6 Q. Now, as you approached the cemetery on the
7 route that you took back, can you tell the Judges what
8 you saw there?
9 A. I saw Muslim soldiers. It was like they were
10 coming together there, and it was a huge crowd, and
11 they were also armed.
12 Q. Do you recall how many Muslim soldiers you
14 A. A couple of hundred.
15 Q. Could you stand up again? I'm sorry to keep
16 asking you to sit down and stand up, but,
17 unfortunately, this courtroom is not well designed for
18 using large exhibits. Could you indicate to the Judges
19 the route that you took from Jaglici to Potocari?
20 MR. CAYLEY: And, again, if the camera could
21 zoom in so that I could actually see what the witness
22 is pointing at.
23 A. [Indicates]. This is where we started, and
24 we were driving down from the hills, towards Potocari.
25 And here is the cemetery [indicates].
1 MR. CAYLEY:
2 Q. So am I correct in saying that you drove the
3 length of that road that is marked on the exhibit
4 between, I think, Susnjari, Jaglici, and Potocari?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Could you indicate once more the location of
7 the cemetery?
8 A. Right here [indicates].
9 Q. Could you keep the marker there?
10 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show the witness
11 is indicating the route that he took from Jaglici to
12 Potocari, being the road marked inside the Srebrenica
13 enclave from Jaglici, through Susnjari, to Potocari,
14 and the cemetery being an approximate location just
15 above the "J" in Susnjari on the road between Susnjari
16 and Potocari.
17 Q. Witness, you can take a seat again.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Cayley,
19 sorry to interrupt you. So that we have everything
20 clear, did they stop on the left or on the right side
21 of the road? This might assist us in finding the exact
23 MR. CAYLEY:
24 Q. Do you recall, Witness, whether the cemetery
25 that you saw, and bearing in mind the direction that
1 you were going in -- you were actually moving from
2 Susnjari to Potocari -- whether it was on the left-hand
3 side of the road or the right-hand side of the road?
4 A. It was on the left hand from the side of the
6 Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you recall what time
7 of the day that you were making this journey?
8 A. Well, it was already later that day, because
9 it got a little bit darker.
10 Q. Now, can you tell the Judges what happened
11 when you reached Potocari?
12 A. When we reached Potocari, our commanding
13 officer in Potocari told us to stay right near
14 Potocari, and we couldn't -- first of all, we couldn't
15 go back to the base because the refugees who were
16 coming from Srebrenica had first to go to Potocari and
17 they wanted to organise that thing first before we went
18 to Potocari.
19 Q. Now, you say that your commanding officer
20 told you to stay right near Potocari. Can you remember
21 approximately what distance you stopped from the
22 UN compound?
23 A. From the UN compound, it's about one -- one
24 and a half kilometres.
25 Q. And would I be right in saying that it was on
1 the road between Susnjari and Potocari that you stopped
2 100 metres short of the intersection, so that you don't
3 have to get up again?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. Can you tell the Judges what happened when
6 you stopped at that location?
7 A. When we stopped at that location, we had to
8 wait there, and after a couple of minutes, we took
9 heavy fire from the left of us, and it was total
10 chaos. They were shooting at us. They were shooting
11 at the Muslim people who were behind us and also in
12 front of us. The crowd started to run, to shout, and
13 we also tried to help the people, and we also had to
14 leave the place.
15 Q. Now, what was your job in the APC at this
16 point in time?
17 A. I was the shooter from the .50-calibre
18 Browning, gun-crew member.
19 MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend has just
20 pointed out perhaps something that I've confused.
21 Q. Now, you're saying that you were one and a
22 half kilometres from the UN compound. If you could
23 stand up -- and we're going to have to use the map
24 because I think it's probably easier -- and if you
25 could show the Judges where you were located.
1 A. [Indicates].
2 MR. CAYLEY: If the camera could zoom in.
3 Q. So you were about one and a half kilometres
4 from the UN base at that location.
5 MR. CAYLEY: And the witness is indicating,
6 on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, on the road between
7 Susnjari to the UN base, just to the left of the purple
9 Q. Witness, how far was that location from the
10 intersection with the Potocari road?
11 A. About 300 metres.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. You can take a seat now.
13 Now, you said that you essentially were on
14 the gun crew for the .50-calibre Browning, and at that
15 point in time, you were actually taking direct fire.
16 Do you know who you were taking direct fire from?
17 A. From the Serb army.
18 Q. Now, I think your rules of engagement allowed
19 you to return fire when directly engaged. Did you
20 return fire?
21 A. No, I didn't.
22 Q. Why did you not return fire?
23 A. Because I also had Muslim people on the APC,
24 and if I fired that weapon, it would harm them.
25 Q. Now, you describe a chaotic occurrence where
1 the Muslims that were in and around the APC panicked.
2 How many people were around you at that point? How
3 many refugees?
4 A. A couple of hundred.
5 Q. Did you see where they ran to?
6 A. They went towards Potocari.
7 Q. Now, I think you then continued along that
8 road, and you then ran into another APC from the UN.
9 Can you tell the Judges what happened when you ran into
10 that other APC?
11 A. When we arrived at the intersection, there
12 was from the Bravo Company an APC who stopped us and
13 gave us the direction and also the order to leave the
14 Muslim people at the factory, and we had to go back to
15 the base and take the injured people with us, the
16 injured Muslim refugees.
17 Q. So where did you leave the Muslim refugees
18 who were not injured? Can you remember the location in
19 and around Potocari?
20 A. Near the bus station.
21 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/9, please. If that could be
23 placed on the ELMO.
24 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. What is the Bravo
25 Company he mentioned?
1 A. The Bravo Company was the other company that
2 was stationed in Srebrenica.
3 JUDGE RIAD: It's a military division?
4 A. It's a --
5 JUDGE RIAD: Is it a military division?
6 A. No. It's a company; it's no division. It's
7 also from the Dutch army.
8 JUDGE RIAD: I see. Thank you.
9 MR. CAYLEY:
10 Q. Just to clarify matters, Corporal Vaasen, how
11 many companies were there that operated on the company
12 from DutchBat III?
13 A. We had Bravo Company stationed in Srebrenica,
14 and we were stationed, the Potocari Company, in
16 Q. But I'm right in saying that platoons from
17 those two companies were located in all of the various
18 observation posts and, indeed, in Potocari itself and
19 in Srebrenica?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Charlie Company, was it responsible for a
22 geographical sector of the enclave?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Which sector was it responsible for?
25 A. It was a northerly direction.
1 Q. And Bravo Company was responsible for which
3 A. South.
4 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, is that reasonably
5 clear now?
6 JUDGE RIAD: For the moment, yes. Thank
8 MR. CAYLEY:
9 Q. Corporal Vaasen --
10 Mr. Usher, if you could move it, because I
11 think he's going to have difficulty reaching across.
12 Could you please point on that exhibit to the
13 location of the bus station?
14 A. [Indicates]. This whole building, and also
15 here, where the buses are here.
16 Q. Okay. If you could leave the pointer in the
17 middle of the bus complex.
18 MR. CAYLEY: So, for the purposes of the
19 record, the witness is pointing to Prosecutor's Exhibit
20 5/9 and indicating to the large building in the
21 background, a large grey building which dominates the
23 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Now, after you had
24 left the refugees at the bus station and taken the
25 wounded into the compound, as you said, what did you
2 A. First of all, we had to drive our APC into
3 the fabric, and -- factory, I'm sorry, into the
4 factory, and we also helped the medics up there to load
5 off those Muslim people off our vehicle, and we also
6 had to return to our commanding officer.
7 Q. Now, after you'd done all of that, what did
8 you do?
9 A. I took a meal and I went to sleep.
10 Q. Now, when you refer to "the factory," you're
11 referring to the DutchBat UN compound?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Let's move to the next day, which I believe
14 was the 12th of July; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Can you tell the Judges what happened on that
17 day, as far as you can remember?
18 A. Yes. I got up very early in the morning, and
19 they needed some soldiers to go to check out how the
20 situation was outside. There already were UN soldiers
21 outside. So we went on patrol with the commanding
22 officer -- I don't know his name anymore -- and we left
23 the base.
24 Q. As you left the base, can you describe the
25 scene that you saw to the Judges?
1 A. Well, it was terrible, because people were
2 crying and -- I'm sorry. They were -- they didn't have
3 any water, no food. They were grabbing at us to help
4 them, and we stayed at the -- first of all, at the
5 first factory. We also went inside there to check
6 it --
7 Q. If I could stop you there, Witness. Do you
8 recall approximately how many people you could see all
9 around you as you walked out of the compound?
10 A. A couple of thousand.
11 Q. Do you recall what the temperature was at
12 that time of day?
13 A. Well, it was very -- it was already getting
14 hotter by the moment.
15 Q. Now, you said that you walked out of the camp
16 and that you went to the first factory. Do you recall
17 the name of that factory?
18 A. We called it the Blue/White Factory.
19 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19.
21 Q. Witness, do you see the Blue Factory on that
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Could you point to the Blue Factory?
25 A. Yes, sir [indicates].
1 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the
2 witness is pointing to Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19 and
3 indicating to a factory building in the right
4 background of the photograph that is, in fact, blue in
5 colour and has a structure, a small structure, built on
6 the roof of it. There's a small square structure, a
7 rectangular structure, on the roof.
8 Q. Could you indicate where the UN compound is
10 A. Yes. Up here [indicates].
11 MR. CAYLEY: So let the record show that the
12 witness is pointing to the building in the left
13 background of Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Could you tell the
15 Judges what you saw and sensed as you went into that
17 A. When we went inside, we saw also Muslim
18 refugees, and on the look on their face, they were very
19 terrified. Most of them were also crying. And the
20 feeling that you get, it's -- it was not good.
21 Q. Can you tell the Judges what else you saw in
22 that building on the morning of the 12th?
23 A. There were also Muslim people who had hanged
24 themselves because they were -- yeah, by my feeling,
25 terrified that something was going on. And the Muslim
1 refugees who were also there didn't look at them,
2 didn't do anything. It looked like they were in a
3 state of shock.
4 Q. Now, you said that there were some Muslim
5 people who had hanged themselves, and I know these
6 memories are difficult for you, but can you describe to
7 the Judges exactly what you saw?
8 A. They used everything to hang themselves. It
9 was not a rope. Some of them took some clothes or
10 something else; I cannot recall. By the look of it, it
11 was not good.
12 Q. Now, when you saw these bodies hanging there,
13 what did you and your fellow soldiers do?
14 A. We took them down.
15 Q. And what did you do with the bodies?
16 A. We took them outside the factory.
17 Q. Now, these individuals who had hanged
18 themselves, do you remember their sex, whether they
19 were male or female, how old they were?
20 A. Most of them were male.
21 Q. Do you know how many bodies you cut down that
23 A. Two.
24 Q. And you say most of them were male. Were
25 they both men?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Approximately what age?
3 A. Yes, they looked older than they were, but my
4 feeling was that they were about 30, 35.
5 Q. Now, the refugees in the rest of the
6 building, you said they looked as if they were in a
7 state of shock. How were they composed? Were they
8 men, women, and children, or were there more of one
9 particular group?
10 A. Well, there were more women and children than
11 men up there.
12 Q. What were the ages of the children that you
13 saw in the Blue Factory?
14 A. Well, it was from a baby, so from zero to 16,
16 Q. And these bodies were just hanging there in
17 front of these children and these women?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you describe to me anything else that was
20 significant that you sensed in that building when you
21 walked in?
22 A. Yes. It was -- you could smell that they had
23 urinated there; also they had defecated there.
24 Q. And you said that they had urinated in the
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what else did you say they had done in
3 the building? I didn't catch that.
4 A. They defecated there.
5 Q. Now, after you'd moved around the Blue
6 Factory, do you recall where you went next?
7 A. Yes. Our commanding officer told us to mix
8 up our group. We each went in a different kind of
10 Q. Where did you go?
11 A. I went to the bus station.
12 Q. And that, indeed, is the bus station that you
13 indicated earlier on the photograph that I showed to
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. What did you find at the bus station?
17 A. More Muslim people.
18 Q. What was their state?
19 A. They were all in the same state.
20 Q. When you say "the same state," do you mean
21 the same as the people in the Blue Factory?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Now, after you'd been to the bus compound,
24 where did you go next?
25 A. Well, we went more towards our own UN
2 Q. Now, you are medically trained.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You're a medical orderly. How did you feel
5 when you looked around at all of these people?
6 A. Well, I could tell that they were in bad
7 shape, really bad shape.
8 Q. Could you do anything for them, as a medic?
9 A. No, not directly, no.
10 Q. Why was that?
11 A. Because we didn't have enough equipment.
12 Q. Now, after you returned to the compound, do
13 you recall what your next orders required you to do?
14 A. Well, I had to stay outside by my -- yeah, we
15 called it the beginning of where the refugees were
16 standing, or lying or sitting.
17 Q. Do you recall where you stayed outside? Do
18 you recall where you were located?
19 A. Yes. I was in front of the Muslim people.
20 Q. Now, I think at some stage you were
21 instructed by your unit to form a human chain; is that
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 MR. CAYLEY: Can the witness be shown
25 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2.
1 Q. Do you remember what time this human chain
2 was formed?
3 A. Let me see, it was about 2.00, 3.00.
4 Q. Could you give the approximate location?
5 A. [Indicates]
6 Q. Now, you're indicating on the road that runs
7 north to south on this photograph, are you?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, the human chain was -- now, this is the
10 first human chain, is it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So it's approximately between the location
13 marked "The Zinc Factory" and the "Faros Building"
14 about halfway in between, and that's on Prosecutor's
15 Exhibit 5/2. Can you explain to the Judges what
16 exactly that human chain was?
17 A. That human chain was with UN soldiers, we had
18 to stay there because the Serb army was coming into the
20 Q. So you formed a line across the road; is that
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Sorry. You can take your hand away from that
24 photograph now.
25 How many soldiers were there on the first
2 A. About 40 soldiers.
3 Q. Were you armed?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. In what position was your weapon?
6 A. I had to hold it on my back.
7 Q. Why did you have to put your weapon on your
9 A. Our orders were not to be aggressive to the
10 Serb soldiers.
11 Q. Now, you say that you were placed in this
12 position because the Serb army was coming to the
13 enclave. How long after you formed this human chain
14 did the Serb army come to the enclave?
15 A. Right directly.
16 Q. Do you recall where they came from?
17 A. They came from Bratunac.
18 Q. Sir, if you could indicate on the photograph
19 again the direction from which they came, if you can
21 A. Yes. It's this road [indicates].
22 MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating
23 from the bottom, the southern point of the photograph,
24 along the road that runs down the middle towards
25 Potocari, so upwards from the bottom of the
2 Q. Can you describe the soldiers that you saw,
3 these soldiers that arrived from Bratunac?
4 A. Yes, sir. They were heavily armed. They had
5 many weapons with them. They had, we call it, RPGs,
6 that's an anti-tank weapon. They had AK-47s with
7 them. They had sidearms with them, machine-guns.
8 There was also a Russian-type tank coming also.
9 Q. Now, you described how they were armed. Can
10 you describe how they were dressed?
11 A. The first group that entered were dressed in
13 Q. Let's stay with that first group that were
14 dressed in black. Can you tell the Judges what you
15 know about that group?
16 A. Well, when we saw them, and they were
17 standing right in front of us, you could see that they
18 were from the Arkan Tigers.
19 Q. Now, you say that they were from Arkan's
20 Tigers. How do you know that?
21 A. Because before we went to Bosnia-Herzegovina,
22 we had training to remember the Serb soldiers, how they
23 are dressed, and the Muslim soldiers, and by that way,
24 we knew that they were Arkan's Tigers, and one of them
25 also told us that they were Arkan's Tigers.
1 Q. Did one of them tell you that he was from the
2 Arkan's Tigers?
3 A. Also to me and friends of mine, colleagues.
4 Q. Was there any significant badge or insignia
5 that indicated the unit?
6 A. Yes. They had also a badge with a tiger on
7 it, and the regular Serb badge.
8 Q. Could you actually directly speak to any of
9 these individuals?
10 A. Well, yes. Some of them speak English, some
11 of them speak German, and I also speak a little bit of
12 German, so ...
13 Q. Now, this is the first group that you saw.
14 What other groups did you see coming from Bratunac?
15 A. Also regular soldiers.
16 Q. Now, when you say "regular soldiers," can you
17 describe the uniforms that they were wearing?
18 A. Camouflage.
19 Q. And how were they armed?
20 A. They were also real good armed.
21 Q. Do you recall any other units that came from
22 Bratunac that you could identify?
23 A. Yes. There were the Drina Wolves.
24 Q. Now, you say the Drina Wolves. How do you
25 know that they were the Drina Wolves?
1 A. Because when they were right in front of us,
2 they had a badge with a wolf on it.
3 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 57.
5 Q. Do you recognise this badge, Corporal Vaasen?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And what is this badge?
8 A. It's the badge from the Drina Wolves.
9 Q. Now, within the Drina Wolves unit, do you
10 recall how many soldiers you saw?
11 A. Yes, about 50, 60 the first time.
12 Q. How well armed were the Drina Wolves?
13 A. Very good, heavily armed, just like the
14 Arkan's Tigers.
15 Q. So it would be correct to say that there were
16 essentially three units that arrived at this time: the
17 Arkan Tigers, the Drina Wolves, and regular VRS
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did they all appear to be working together,
21 coming up towards the human barricade?
22 A. No, no, no. They all had their own
23 commanding officer.
24 Q. Now, when they arrived at the barrier, how
25 did the refugees react to that?
1 A. They were very scared because they were aware
2 of the Arkan Tigers and the Drina Wolves.
3 Q. Now, after these two special units and these
4 regular soldiers arrived at your barricade, do you
5 recall what happened next?
6 A. Yes. There were some Drina Wolves, they were
7 going to some houses on the left of me and started to
8 plunder those houses.
9 Q. Can you describe to the Judges, when you say
10 they started to plunder those houses, what exactly you
11 saw taking place?
12 A. Well, the first couple of houses where they
13 went in, they came out with not really useful things,
14 telephones, typewriters, coffee machines. They took
15 everything. And after a couple of houses, they also
16 went inside another house, and they -- you could hear a
17 scream, you heard a burst from an AK-47. After that,
18 they also came out with stuff from inside, so also
19 another telephone, VCR player, and thrown a grenade
20 inside. We called it a phosphor grenade.
21 Q. Now, you said that you could hear a scream
22 and you heard a burst from an AK-47. At the time, what
23 did you think was taking place?
24 A. That they were killing those people inside.
25 Q. Now, as far as you know, were there members
1 of the Bosnian army based in and around those houses
2 near Potocari?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were there members of the Muslim army in
5 those houses --
6 A. No, no, not from the Muslim army, just
7 refugees, people who stayed there and ...
8 Q. So as far as you know, the Muslims in those
9 houses were refugees; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Now, you say that you saw them throw
12 a phosphor grenade, and I think by this you mean a
13 phosphorus grenade; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Now, when that phosphorus grenade was thrown
16 into the house, what happened?
17 A. It was on fire.
18 Q. When you saw this taking place, what did you
20 A. We approached those Serb soldiers and tried
21 to stop them. They laughed at us, and even one of them
22 told us to stand down, not to interfere with what they
23 were doing, that it's no problem to kill one or two
24 people more, and they were pointing at us.
25 Q. Now, how many times did you see this taking
2 A. A couple of times.
3 Q. When you say "a couple," you can be more
4 specific, if you can remember?
5 A. Three times.
6 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness can be shown
7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/19, and if the photograph could
8 actually be moved up. Further, actually. We don't
9 need to have the factories actually particularly in the
11 Q. Now, this is a photograph that I've
12 previously shown you. Can you explain to the Judges
13 whether you recognise this photograph in connection
14 with the incidents that you've just described to them?
15 A. Yes. Where those houses are up here
16 [indicates], they started first to walk up here
17 [indicates]. They took this house, that house, and
18 started here to throw hand grenades inside [indicates],
19 to shoot people, and they walked on, so on and so on.
20 Q. So you could just indicate again, first of
21 all, where the soldiers walked from when they --
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. So I'm correct in saying they left the main
24 road just by the Blue Factory, and the red building,
25 the red house without a roof to the right of the
1 photograph, and they walked up the path, and then they
2 cleared a number of these houses that you're indicating
3 to in the foreground, a number of these civilian houses
4 which are quite clearly shown on the exhibit in the
5 foreground. How many times did you see this activity
6 take place?
7 A. Well, with the hand grenades was three
9 Q. And the shooting and hearing the screaming?
10 How many times did you hear and see that?
11 A. One time.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you, Witness.
13 Now, when you saw this taking place, how did
14 you feel?
15 A. Well, first of all, I felt very sick in my
16 stomach. It's not a normal thing.
17 Q. Now, you'd already been warned, you've
18 explained to the Judges, by one of these Serb soldiers
19 not to get involved. So what did you do?
20 A. I went back to the human barricade and told
21 the commander officer what's going on up there.
22 Q. And what did he say to you?
23 A. He said, "Okay. You had better not do
24 anything," because at the moment when I saw that, I was
25 very angry. First of all, I was wanting to grab my
1 weapon and shoot them, but I couldn't do that because
2 you also have think about the other Muslim people that
3 were there then and also about your colleagues. There
4 are several things that you have to think about. And
5 in the state of those Serb soldiers, I don't think that
6 they could think very clearly.
7 Q. Why do you think they could not think very
9 A. Because from the moment they went inside, you
10 could smell alcohol. They were using drugs. So they
11 were under the influence.
12 Q. When you say that they were using drugs, how
13 could you tell?
14 A. Because I smelled it and I saw it a couple of
16 Q. What could you see?
17 A. They were sniffing white powder.
18 Q. Now, you're a medic. Do you have any idea
19 what drugs that they were using?
20 A. Cocaine.
21 Q. Now, you returned, you said, to the human
22 barricade. What did you see when you got back to the
24 A. Well, when I was there, later on there were
25 some cars approaching to the UN compound and the
1 barricade, and a couple of soldiers came out and also
2 General Mladic with some bodyguards, and other
3 high-rank soldiers.
4 Q. Do you recall approximately what time this
6 A. It was already later that day. It was about
7 3.00, 3.30.
8 Q. In the afternoon.
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. On the 12th of July.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Now, you say you saw General Mladic and some
13 other high-ranking soldiers. What did General Mladic
15 A. First of all, he approached the Muslim
16 refugees, and there was also a camera crew with him,
17 and they started to throw candy into the Muslim
19 Q. If you could just stop there, and we'll play
20 a section of video which I think will probably help you
21 refresh your memory.
22 MR. CAYLEY: This is Prosecutor's Exhibit 3.
23 It's a thirty-second video clip. If the video could be
24 played now.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. CAYLEY: We can stop at that point.
2 Thank you.
3 Q. Corporal Vaasen, do you recall that scene?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. You say that the soldiers were throwing candy
6 to the children.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And, indeed, as this shows, all of this was
9 being filmed. Can you explain to the Judges what
10 happened immediately after this took place?
11 A. Well, first of all, they were filming
12 everything that General Mladic was telling something to
13 the people, and the people in front of them were a
14 little bit, yeah, how do you call it, scared. And he
15 tried to shake hands with the people, and then the
16 cameraman switched off the camera. And what then
17 happened was terrible because he took the candy back,
18 kicked the people, even hit those children up front.
19 Q. Now, you say "he took the candy back." Who
20 took the candy back from the children?
21 A. Well, they took them back, those soldiers who
22 were in front of them.
23 Q. And these soldiers, these were members of the
24 Bosnian Serb army that were around General Mladic?
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Now, do you recall anything else that you saw
2 at that time, immediately after the camera switched
4 A. Well, you saw that those faces were really
5 terrified, of those Muslim people, and directly he gave
6 orders to a man who was right in front -- on the right
7 of him, and that person went away. He let those other
8 officers from the Serb soldiers come to him, he talked
9 to them, and those Serb officers went back to their own
10 unit, and they started to reorganise things. They were
11 starting to stand left and right of the road --
12 Q. Corporal Vaasen, if I can just interrupt you
13 here. You said that -- in response to my question,
14 "Directly he gave orders to a man who was right in
15 front." Who gave orders?
16 A. General Mladic.
17 Q. Now, General Mladic, let's focus on him for a
18 moment. Whilst all this is going on, the candy is
19 being taken back from the children, people were being
20 kicked, what was General Mladic doing?
21 A. He was standing there and he looked very
23 Q. Did he see what his soldiers were doing?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Did he say or do anything?
1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Now, the man to whom he gave orders, did you
3 know his name, the man to whom Mladic gave orders?
4 A. No, but I can recall his face. It's no
6 MR. CAYLEY: One moment, Mr. President. Ah,
7 it's a good time to take a break, Mr. President, I
8 think you're indicating to me.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
10 Mr. Cayley. We shall take a 15-minute break, so as not
11 to have too long a period of work at a stretch.
12 Fifteen minutes.
13 --- Recess taken at 1.43 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 2.02 p.m.
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may
16 continue, Mr. Cayley.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,
18 Your Honours. Thank you.
19 If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's
20 Exhibit 28/13 and 28/13.1, please, which is the
21 compilation of photographs of various individuals.
22 Q. Now, these are photographs which I've
23 previously shown to you. If you could identify the
24 individuals on this photograph, this is 28/13, you can
25 go ahead and identify the individuals on the
2 A. This man [indicates] is General Mladic, and
3 this is the other person I had seen with General
4 Mladic, near those Muslim refugees. This is the same
5 person who got orders from Mladic.
6 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show on
7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/13 that the individual on the
8 left of the photograph, the witness is identifying as
9 General Mladic, and the individual on the right-hand
10 photograph as the other person who the witness saw with
11 General Mladic near to the Muslim refugees and who
12 received orders from General Mladic.
13 Q. Just to be absolutely sure, Corporal Vaasen,
14 this is the individual that you were speaking of before
15 the break who received orders from Mladic immediately
16 after the incident with the women and the children, and
17 the candy, the throwing of the candy.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Now, once these orders were given to the
20 individual that you recognised, can you explain to the
21 Court what happened?
22 A. Yes. The Serb soldiers were reorganising,
23 and they were going to stand to the left and right of
24 the road. After that, I saw the man who took the
25 orders from Mladic grab a small radio, talk into the
1 radio, and after a couple of minutes, trucks and buses
2 came into the enclave.
3 Q. Now, while these Serb soldiers were
4 reorganising, how were the refugees reacting at this
6 A. They were really scared.
7 Q. Did you see any other VRS soldiers at that
8 time who you hadn't seen previously?
9 A. Yes. The first vehicle that approached the
10 refugees was full of Serb soldiers with German
12 Q. Now, when you say "German Shepherds," you
13 don't mean shepherds of German origin, you mean the
14 breed of dog that is a German Shepherd.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What did these soldiers with these dogs do?
17 A. Well, each soldier had his own dog, and they
18 also took a side, the left side or the right side.
19 Q. Now, when the refugees were in and around
20 these soldiers with the dogs, did you see anything
21 taking place?
22 A. Yes. They started to put the Muslim people
23 inside those trucks and inside those buses and --
24 Q. Carry on.
25 A. And they also -- separation took place at
1 that moment.
2 Q. Now, when you say that separation took place,
3 what do you mean by that?
4 A. I mean men from the women and children.
5 Q. And when these men were separated, where did
6 you see them being taken?
7 A. There was a building, we called it the White
8 House, and they were taken to that house.
9 Q. How did the refugees react when they were
10 separated, when families were separated?
11 A. It was total chaos. People tried to run
12 away, push each other away, and whenever that happened,
13 they started to fire in the air.
14 Q. Now, you say "they started to fire in the
15 air," who started to fire in the air?
16 A. Some Muslim soldiers who were in front of the
18 Q. You say that Muslim soldiers started to fire
19 who were in front of the --
20 A. No, no, no. I'm sorry. Serb soldiers.
21 Q. So Serb soldiers started to fire in the air
22 above the refugees.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. With what weapon did they fire?
25 A. With their AK-47s, all kinds of weapons, and
1 they even had a machine-gun placed on some kind of
2 balcony, in a house, and they shot over their heads.
3 Q. Just to give the Judges an approximate
4 location of where all of this was taking place, do you
5 recall where this was taking place?
6 A. Yes. It was still near the bus station.
7 Q. And on that road --
8 A. On that road, yes.
9 Q. -- near to the bus station.
10 Now, how did the crowd react when the Serb
11 soldiers started firing over the heads of the crowd?
12 A. They started to scream, to shout. Some of
13 them who didn't listen got even directly fire.
14 Q. You say, "Some of them who didn't listen even
15 got directly fire." What do you mean by that?
16 A. They were shooting at the person directly.
17 Q. So VRS soldiers were shooting directly at
18 individuals in the crowd.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Was anybody injured as a result of this
22 A. Yes. I even helped two people.
23 Q. Now, you are a medic, you were a medic. Do
24 you recall the injuries of those people?
25 A. Yes, sir. One was shot in the leg and the
1 other one was also shot in the leg and in the stomach.
2 Q. What was the sex of those who were injured?
3 A. Female.
4 Q. Were both of them females?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Now, can you describe to the Judges, you
7 started to explain the process of separation and moving
8 the refugees onto the buses, can you describe how that
9 process took place and what you saw happening, what you
10 saw the VRS soldiers doing around these refugees?
11 A. Well, when they started to move those
12 refugees to the buses and the trucks, they were --
13 well, it was very, very hard. Some of them were even
14 kicked, beaten. They used their weapons, the back of
15 the weapon, to hit them everywhere. And even by the
16 separation of the men, that was even harder because
17 children tried to grab their fathers, even their
18 brothers, and they used even force up there to separate
19 those men, and they pushed the women and the children
20 towards the bus and the men towards the White House.
21 Q. Now, the human barricade, you stated, was
22 next to the bus station. Did it remain in that
24 A. No, it didn't.
25 Q. Can you explain to the Judges where the human
1 barricade moved to?
2 A. I can.
3 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
4 Exhibit 5/4.
5 Q. Do you recall at approximately what time the
6 barricade moved?
7 A. I don't. I don't recall that anymore.
8 Q. Why did the barricade move?
9 A. Because we were totally outnumbered up there,
10 and there were so many refugees that we couldn't have
11 held them in one place, and that's why they pushed us
12 towards the buses.
13 MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry. I've given the wrong
14 number. Can the witness be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit
15 5/2, please?
16 Q. So what you're saying is, in essence, you
17 were actually physically pushed back down the road.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Can you indicate as best you can remember,
20 and I know it's a long time ago now, but approximately
21 to where the barricade moved on the 12th of July?
22 A. [Indicates]
23 Q. So this is the second location of the
24 barricade, the first being opposite the bus compound.
25 A. The first one was here [indicates], and then
1 it moved 300 metres down.
2 MR. CAYLEY: So the witness is indicating on
3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2, to the right of the wording
4 "Faros Building," on the road that runs north/south,
5 like a ribbon, down the centre of the photograph.
6 Q. Just to clarify, Corporal Vaasen, the
7 barricade was still actually on the road.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, can you describe, when you looked into
10 these buses that were around, can you describe to the
11 Judges the condition of the refugees in those buses?
12 A. Well, the refugees were in totally bad
13 shape. It was even very hot that day, about 38
14 degrees. The people who went inside those buses and
15 trucks were pushed inside, and even you could see that
16 they were putting too many people -- too many people in
17 one vehicle because you saw even those children, their
18 heads against the window, and ...
19 Q. Now, when you saw this, did you do anything?
20 A. Yes. I walked back, because I walked several
21 times with some of those Muslims, I walked back to that
22 man who earlier was given those orders from Mladic.
23 Q. And that's the man that you recognised in the
24 photograph with General Mladic.
25 A. Yes, sir.
1 Q. Do you know his name?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Now, you walked back to that man, and did you
4 find him?
5 A. Yes, sir. Yes, yes, yes. He was standing
6 all the time at the same place, and I told him that
7 there were too many people in one bus or in a truck,
8 and he told me that it was not his concern and we had
9 to deal with it.
10 Q. So when he said that you had to deal with it,
11 what did you do?
12 A. I went back to the commander officer, who was
13 standing right in front of the human chains, and I told
14 him what was going on at the buses. So we started to
15 reorganise the human chain, and they let, every time,
16 groups of ten people go out of crowd towards those
17 buses. Some of the soldiers who were UN soldiers even
18 got orders from that person to walk with them, and if
19 you see that there were enough people in the bus, stop
20 it and then go directly to the other bus.
21 Q. Now, when you're referring to the commanding
22 officer, are you referring to the Dutch commanding
23 officer or a Bosnian Serb officer?
24 A. No, it was our commanding officer.
25 Q. The Dutch commanding officer.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, in essence, you're saying that by
3 reorganising the human chain, you regulated the flow of
4 refugees, you controlled the flow. You took less
5 people who were coming through the barricade to get on
6 the buses. Is that right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Did you yourself actually escort any of these
9 groups to buses?
10 A. Yes, sir, and I was not the only one.
11 Q. Did conditions get better when you put this
12 plan into effect --
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. -- for the refugees?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Why did it get better?
17 A. Because those buses were not so full that
18 they were -- that they had also their faces against the
19 windows, and they even could sit normally.
20 Q. Now, let's just talk again at this point
21 about the Bosnian Serb army that was in and around this
22 operation that was taking place.
23 Can you describe the uniforms of the Bosnian
24 Serb soldiers at this point in time, who were in and
25 around the refugees and the buses?
1 A. They wore all camouflage uniforms.
2 Q. Green camouflage or blue camouflage?
3 A. Green.
4 Q. You mentioned earlier special units and
5 regular Bosnian Serb soldiers.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At this point in time, these large groups of
8 VRS soldiers, were they regulars or special units?
9 A. No, they were regular.
10 Q. Let's talk about the White House, which you
11 mentioned earlier. You said that you saw men being
12 separated and taken to the White House.
13 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness can be shown
14 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/17.
15 Q. Again, this is a photograph that I've shown
16 you earlier. Do you recognise that photograph?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Can you tell the Judges what that photograph
20 A. It shows the White House.
21 Q. And this is the White House to which you were
22 referring where men were taken off to the separation
23 from their families?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Can you describe to the Judges what you saw
1 taking place at the White House from your vantage point
2 at the human barricade?
3 A. The men who were separated from their
4 families had to go through the gate. Right in front of
5 it you have a gate here [indicates]. They had to sit
6 right in front of it, beside this house [indicates],
7 and they had to leave all their luggage also here on
8 the grass. Some of them were also taken inside to the
9 house, and later on they came out and they were -- you
10 could see that there was something going on, because
11 they had scars, bruises, everything, and they got
12 separated from the rest of the men.
13 Q. Approximately how far away from the White
14 House were you when you were observing the events
15 taking place there?
16 A. As you can see, this is a little bit of the
17 main road [indicates], and I was standing here
18 [indicates] and later here [indicates].
19 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the
20 witness is indicating to the left of the foreground to
21 the main road that you can see. The main road leads
22 into the side road into the White House. He was
23 standing at the entrance to the side road, observing
24 what was taking place at the White House.
25 Q. Let's talk a little bit more about the men
1 that you saw. Do you recall anything else of the men
2 that you saw outside the White House?
3 A. Yes. The men were very scared. Some of them
4 were in some kind of shock. They were staring only
5 right in front of them. Some of them even cried. It
6 was real bad, their look was real bad.
7 Q. Now, the evacuation that day, on the 12th,
8 for how long did it continue?
9 A. Until it got dark.
10 Q. Now, when it got dark and the evacuation
11 stopped, what did you do?
12 A. I stayed there.
13 Q. When you say "there," where did you stay?
14 A. I stayed near the human barricade.
15 Q. Did you stay at the human barricade all
16 night, or did you go around the area? Did you look
17 into any of the other buildings around that area?
18 A. We also got orders to check the buildings,
19 and the refugees, what kind of state they were in.
20 Q. Did you, in fact, do that?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. Whereabouts did you go that night? Can you
23 tell the Judges?
24 A. Yes. We also went -- excuse me. We also
25 went, first of all, to the Blue Factory.
1 Q. Is that the Blue Factory that you previously
2 identified in a photograph that I showed to you?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Can you tell the Judges, from your memory,
5 exactly what you saw that night in the Blue Factory,
6 what you heard, what you smelt?
7 A. Well, it was the same smell as the whole
8 day -- as earlier that day, when I went inside, and
9 people were scared. Some of them were starving from
10 hunger, and they didn't have any water. Even we
11 couldn't help them. It was very dark inside. And
12 behind the factory, we heard some crazy noises, so we
13 checked it out. We were with three members, three UN
14 soldiers, and we went to the back of the factory, and
15 when we were at that area, we heard the sound of a
16 female. And we switched our flashlights on, and we saw
17 two Serb soldiers, one of them was standing guard and
18 the other one was lying on the girl, with his pants
20 Q. When you got there and switched the
21 flashlight on, what happened next?
22 A. Well, they were -- first of all, they didn't
23 know who we were, and they started to run away. And it
24 was so quickly that, even for us, it was a surprise
25 because we didn't know what we were getting into. And
1 we saw a girl lying on the ground, on some kind of
2 mattress. There was blood on the mattress, even she
3 was covered with blood. She had bruises on her legs.
4 There was even blood coming down her legs. She was in
5 total shock. She went totally crazy. We even tried,
6 in her language, to calm her down, but she didn't
7 listen. Well, we had to take her outside, and outside
8 the building we were helped by female Muslim refugees
9 who told us to keep the woman with them.
10 Q. Now, you were a medic. Did you offer medical
12 A. Yes, I tried, but they refused.
13 Q. Why did they refuse?
14 A. Because she was totally in shock. She was
15 also kicking towards us and waving with her hands. And
16 she didn't want help from us because she was scared.
17 Q. Now, at the time, and I'm going to ask you a
18 question that seems fairly obvious, but it's for the
19 purposes of the record, did you conclude what you had
20 seen taking place?
21 A. Yes, a raping.
22 Q. Were there other refugees in and around this
23 rape while it was taking place?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. What were they doing?
1 A. They were sitting on the ground. They
2 couldn't do anything because the Serb soldiers were
3 covering them with weapons. And after those scenes,
4 what we had seen that day, I thought myself that they
5 would use it against them.
6 Q. How old was the girl? Do you remember?
7 A. Well, she was very young, about 19, 20
9 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would you wish to
10 end at this point?
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] How much
12 longer do you think your examination-in-chief will
14 MR. CAYLEY: Another 15 minutes,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Then
17 perhaps it is better to adjourn now. Very well. We
18 shall adjourn and resume tomorrow with your testimony,
19 Mr. Vaasen. We shall be resuming tomorrow at half past
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
23 the 28th day of March, 2000, at
24 9.30 a.m.