1 Monday, 3 April 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.43 a.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning,
8 interpreters. Can they hear me? Yes, they can. Good
9 morning to the technicians; good morning, counsel for
10 the Prosecution. As far as I can see, Mr. McCloskey is
11 not here. Good morning to the counsel for the
12 Defence. Good morning, General Krstic.
13 We will be sitting in full composition today,
14 together with Judge Wald, and we will continue with
15 hearing the Krstic case.
16 Good morning, Colonel Kingori. I hope you
17 have spent a nice weekend here in The Hague.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was a nice weekend.
19 Thanks.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well,
21 then. Let me just remind you that you are still under
22 an oath and that you are going to continue answering
23 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley -- no,
24 I'm sorry, Mr. Harmon.
25 Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.
1 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good
2 morning, Your Honours; good morning, counsel; good
3 morning, Colonel Kingori.
4 WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed]
5 Examined by Mr. Harmon:
6 Q. When we concluded your testimony on Friday,
7 you were discussing events, particularly focusing on
8 events in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of July.
9 Let me ask you, Colonel Kingori, on the 12th of July,
10 you were wearing a pair of sunglasses, weren't you?
11 A. Yes, Your Honour, I was.
12 Q. Did something happen in respect of your
13 sunglasses, and can you explain to the Judges what did
14 occur?
15 A. Your Honour, on that day, when I was still
16 patrolling just around where the refugees were, one of
17 the BSA soldiers intercepted me and asked me whether he
18 could have my sunglasses. Okay. The way he asked me
19 was not that polite --
20 [Technical difficulty]
21 MR. HARMON: I'm getting the French
22 translation, at least I have. I'm getting a perfect
23 French translation.
24 Could we hear from the English booth, if
25 possible?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us now?
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Could you please repeat your answer, Colonel
4 Kingori?
5 A. Your Honour, on that day, while I was still
6 patrolling that area, that is, where the refugees were,
7 one of the BSA soldiers confronted me and requested to
8 have my sunglasses. Actually, it was not a request, he
9 wanted to remove them. Luckily, one of the senior
10 officers, and that member was Colonel-- the legal
11 officer, the one who introduced himself as the legal
12 officer, intercepted and told that guy to leave me
13 alone. So at least I had my sunglasses back.
14 Q. Have I shown you some video footage and have
15 you been able to identify the soldier who you believe
16 was responsible for attempting to take your sunglasses?
17 A. Yes, you have done, and I can recognise him.
18 MR. HARMON: If I could have the lights
19 dimmed please, and if we could play Prosecutor's
20 Exhibit 76, I would like you to identify the soldier
21 who you believe was responsible for trying to take your
22 sunglasses, please.
23 [Videotape played]
24 A. This is the officer.
25 MR. HARMON:
1 Q. What is he wearing?
2 A. The one I'm pointing at, he's wearing a
3 jacket. I can't remember which colour that is.
4 MR. HARMON: Would you replay that, please?
5 Freeze it.
6 A. This one here, he has a T-shirt, he has a
7 pistol, some -- here he is.
8 Q. The man in the centre of this particular
9 frame.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right.
12 MR. HARMON: That's fine, thank you.
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, did BSA soldiers who were in
14 Potocari on the 12th and 13th take items from UNPROFOR
15 soldiers while you were there?
16 A. Your Honour, this was an ongoing thing. They
17 could take belongings from the DutchBat soldiers, who
18 were members of UNPROFOR, and also from the civilians
19 who were there. That was an ongoing thing.
20 Q. Now, let me change the topic and ask you if,
21 on the 13th of July, you saw Major Nikolic.
22 A. On the 13th of July, Your Honour, I saw him.
23 Q. Where did you see him?
24 A. He was there almost throughout, but at least
25 I remember seeing him inside the DutchBat compound and
1 also outside the DutchBat compound.
2 Q. What do you remember him doing on the 13th of
3 July in the DutchBat compound?
4 A. In the DutchBat compound, he came there to
5 check those refugees who were still inside there, that
6 is, the ones who were injured, the ones who were
7 actually sick, to check whether there were any
8 soldiers, and he had a list that he was comparing with,
9 which I believe was that of the soldiers that he knew
10 belonged to the BiH, and he was cross-checking.
11 Whichever male that he found, he could cross-check with
12 their list to see whether he belonged to the BiH or
13 not.
14 Q. And how long did he remain in the UN
15 compound, as far as you can recall?
16 A. As far as I can recall, he stood there for
17 quite some time, quite some time, actually, maybe close
18 to one hour, something like that. And he was not
19 alone, he was together with some other senior BSA
20 officers. He was with Colonel Acamovic, he was with --
21 okay, Petar, that is, our interpreter, and Vukovic was
22 also there that day.
23 Q. Let me ask you, you mentioned the name that's
24 new here to us, Acamovic. Who was Colonel Acamovic?
25 A. Your Honour, Colonel Acamovic was introduced
1 to us as a logistics officer, and also later on he told
2 us that he was the special representative of General
3 Mladic in that particular area.
4 Q. And was that -- when you had those comments
5 made by Colonel Acamovic, do you remember what day that
6 was? Was that the 12th or the 13th or some other day?
7 A. Your Honour, here I'm not very sure, but I
8 think it was on the 13th. I'm not very sure.
9 Q. All right. Now, let me ask you, in your
10 testimony on Friday, you discussed seeing General
11 Krstic and other high-ranking officers of the Bosnian
12 Serb army on the 12th of July, and you saw them in
13 Potocari. I'm going to play you two clips of film, and
14 I've had an opportunity to show you these clips of
15 film, have I not? These are interviews, the first
16 interview with General Mladic and the second is an
17 interview with General Krstic. Did you have an
18 opportunity to see those films?
19 A. Your Honour, I have. You have shown me.
20 Q. And did I show you those films for the first
21 time on Friday night, after you concluded your
22 testimony?
23 A. Your Honour, he did.
24 MR. HARMON: All right. Now, if I could pass
25 out to the Chamber and to counsel a transcript, which
1 would be Prosecutor's Exhibit 79A, that's the English
2 version, and 79B, the B/C/S version, before we play
3 this film, it would assist the Chamber and counsel in
4 understanding what's on the film.
5 Q. Before we play this film, Colonel Kingori, do
6 you appear in this film, in the interview of General
7 Mladic?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. And, in fact, you appear at the very
10 beginning of this film, do you not?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. All right.
13 MR. HARMON: Then if we could lower the
14 lights, please, and if we could then play Prosecutor's
15 Exhibit 79, we could hear the interview of General
16 Mladic
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. HARMON:
19 Q. Colonel Kingori, you were present when that
20 interview took place, weren't you?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. Do you remember which day that was? Was that
23 the 12th or the 13th?
24 A. That should have been on the 12th.
25 Q. Let me now play a second tape for you, a
1 taped interview of General Krstic.
2 MR. HARMON: And before I play that tape, I'd
3 also ask the usher to disseminate Prosecutor's Exhibit
4 67A and B, which is an English and B/C/S transcript of
5 the tape.
6 Now, if we could proceed by playing
7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 66. Lower the lights, please.
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. All right. Colonel Kingori, if I could first
11 of all ask you, can you tell, from looking at that
12 film, where that film was taken?
13 A. Your Honour, I can. I can remember it was --
14 even from the buildings which are there, I can be able
15 to tell that it was somewhere ahead of Potocari, as you
16 go towards Srebrenica. It is somewhere near those
17 factories which were there. I can recall that place.
18 Q. Now, you didn't actually see that interview
19 take place, did you?
20 A. I did not.
21 Q. Friday in your testimony, you identified a
22 number of people who you saw in Potocari, and you
23 identified a particular individual, I'm going to have
24 the usher place the photograph on the ELMO, an
25 individual you saw who was present with General
1 Krstic.
2 MR. HARMON: And if I could have placed on
3 the ELMO Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/8.1.
4 Q. Again, Judge Wald was not here, Colonel
5 Kingori. Can you identify with your pointer the man
6 you saw with General Krstic in Potocari in this
7 photograph?
8 A. This is the man [indicates].
9 MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the
10 man in the brown T-shirt on the left side of the
11 image.
12 Now, if we could go back to the film, to the
13 portion of General Krstic's interview, the portion that
14 I have previously asked to be freeze-framed, and if I
15 could direct Your Honours' attention to the video
16 monitor.
17 Q. I'd like to direct, Colonel Kingori, your
18 attention first to the man who appears over the
19 left-hand shoulder of General Krstic, and I'd like to
20 direct Your Honours' attention to that individual as
21 well. You can see him in the background. He's walking
22 from the right-hand side of the monitor to the left, in
23 the direction of General Krstic.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Now, Mr. Usher, if you would kindly take
1 Prosecutor's Exhibit 58, and if that could be
2 disseminated to the Judges, and if you could place
3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 58 on the ELMO next to
4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/8.1. If I could direct Your
5 Honours' attention to the ELMO image.
6 Mr. Usher, I'd like you not to take General
7 Krstic's face but the individual who is over the
8 shoulder of General Krstic. And could you put that
9 alongside Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/1, those two faces
10 next to one another.
11 Q. Now, Colonel Kingori, do you see the
12 individual in Prosecutor's Exhibit 58, which is the
13 still photograph taken from the film, and do you see
14 the man in the background of that? Is that the same
15 man you saw with General Krstic on the 12th of July?
16 A. Yes, he is. This is the same person.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher,
19 I've concluded with that set of exhibits.
20 Q. Now, Colonel Kingori, do you have in front of
21 you a copy of the transcript of General Mladic's
22 interview, which is marked in the upper right-hand
23 corner as Prosecutor's Exhibit 79A.
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. Now, I'd like you to -- I'm going to read
1 parts of this interview, and I'd like your observations
2 and comments about each of the parts that I read to
3 you.
4 The first sentence -- for the record, I'm
5 referring to Prosecutor's Exhibit 79A, and the first
6 paragraph with "RM" I would like to start with the
7 second complete sentence, or a portion of the second
8 sentence, starting with "Our army."
9 Let me read this portion of the interview.
10 "Our army did not want to target either the civilian
11 population or UNPROFOR."
12 Now, Colonel Kingori, you lived in Potocari
13 throughout the period of the takeover. What comments
14 or observations do you have about General Mladic's
15 comment about "Our army did not want to target either
16 the civilian population or UNPROFOR"?
17 A. First of all, I would like to draw you back
18 to what I said on Friday concerning where BSA were
19 targeting. They were mainly concentrating their fire
20 power on Srebrenica village and Potocari. This is
21 where mainly there were civilian population, heavy
22 civilian population were in Potocari and Srebrenica.
23 So seeing that they were not targeting the civilians,
24 here I would not like to believe him.
25 Concerning UNPROFOR, this is not correct
1 because they were targeting the DutchBat -- the Dutch
2 Battalion, their OPs, that is, their observation
3 posts. They hit their OPs. They also surrounded one
4 of the OPs, took some of the soldiers with them, and
5 these cannot be called -- you know, that they were not
6 targeting UNPROFOR. They definitely were.
7 On one occasion, they also hit the Potocari
8 DutchBat compound with their artillery shells, which is
9 on record that we went there and analysed. So
10 definitely the DutchBat compound was a safe area or
11 somewhere that these guys were not supposed to have
12 hit, but they did, knowing that this is a UN compound.
13 So definitely they were targeting UNPROFOR and also
14 civilians.
15 Q. Let me direct you to the remaining part of
16 that sentence, which says: "We have provided
17 transport, food, water, and medicine," referring to the
18 civilian population. Do you have any comments or
19 observations on that particular part of the sentence?
20 A. All I can say, on the side of transport, they
21 provided transport for those people to leave the
22 enclave -- okay, not for them to leave the enclave but
23 to transport them to where they wanted to take them.
24 For food, there was no food that they gave the civilian
25 population, or even us, those who were inside that
1 enclave. So there was no food.
2 Water, there was a time we requested Major
3 Nikolic, that was on the 12th, to provide water for the
4 civilians because we didn't have enough water, and he
5 brought one tanker of water.
6 Now, for medicine, there was no provision of
7 medicine. Okay. We can say that they treated some
8 wounded people in Bratunac Hospital, the ones we took
9 there, they accepted them and treated them, but there
10 was no provision of medicine for the other people who
11 were with us in Potocari. Those who were inside the
12 compound or those who were outside the compound, they
13 did not treat them.
14 Q. Let me direct your attention to the following
15 sentence: "In the course of the day, in the first
16 round, we'll be evacuating women, children, the
17 elderly, and all of those who want, of their own free
18 will, without any coercion, to leave this combat
19 area."
20 What are your comments, Colonel Kingori, on
21 that part of this sentence by General Mladic that
22 people could leave of their own free will without any
23 coercion?
24 A. One thing to note here is that these people,
25 that is, the Muslims, were not given a choice whether
1 to leave or to continue staying in Srebrenica. After
2 the enclave fell, they were just told, "We're providing
3 transport to take you out," and that was it. They were
4 not even asked where they want to be taken. So
5 something to do with them leaving out of their own free
6 will, that does not arise, because even us, we asked
7 the BSA where they wanted to take these civilians
8 because they did not indicate that they have a choice,
9 and they told us they want to take them to Tuzla, for
10 the Muslims to join their brothers who are Muslims in
11 that place.
12 Q. Now, Colonel Kingori, do you have a copy of
13 Prosecutor's Exhibit 67A, a transcript of the interview
14 with General Krstic? Do you have that in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Let me direct your attention to two
17 sentences, and I'm going to ask you to do the same
18 thing, to comment on the substance of these two
19 sentences in General Krstic's statement. The first is
20 the second to last sentence in the first paragraph:
21 "We guarantee safety to civilians."
22 Do you have any comments about that?
23 A. For one, I don't know what he's actually
24 referring to because the safety of civilians was
25 breached a long time before he made this comment. It
1 started with the shelling of the enclave. That's when
2 their safety was breached. That's when they were no
3 longer safe anywhere in that enclave. And after that,
4 when they went to DutchBat compound, they were still
5 not safe because shelling was still going on, the BSA
6 soldiers could still come in. Those who were outside
7 the DutchBat compound were still not safe. The men had
8 been herded in one area, one building, where there was
9 so many of them inside that building they were stepping
10 on each other, sleeping on each other and all that.
11 And definitely that -- you cannot call that safety.
12 They were not safe at all.
13 Q. Let me turn to the second sentence in that
14 first paragraph, and I quote: "They will be taken
15 safely to a destination of their choice."
16 Your comments, please, Colonel Kingori.
17 A. Your Honour, as to the destination of their
18 choice, these people, as I said earlier, were not asked
19 where they want to go. They did not have a choice of
20 their destination. So they were actually relying on
21 where these BSA would take them. Whether it is to a
22 good place, a bad place, or whatever, it all depended
23 on the BSA. So they did not have a choice of where
24 they wanted to go.
25 On the side of safely, you know, being taken
1 safely, well, that is something which is, to me, not
2 very clear because they were transported, that is true,
3 but as we had later, much later, they were not -- most
4 of them did not reach their destination. So we cannot
5 say that they were taken safely to where they wanted to
6 go.
7 Q. Let me know focus on the issue of choice of
8 the refugees either to remain in Srebrenica enclave or
9 to go to a destination of their choice. Did you, on
10 the 13th of July, have an occasion to leave Potocari
11 and go into Srebrenica, to the town of Srebrenica?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Could you tell the Judges what you observed
14 when a Muslim woman did express their choice to remain
15 in the town of Srebrenica?
16 A. Your Honour, on that day, that is, the 13th,
17 we went to Srebrenica for patrol, with MSF personnel.
18 Me, I was representing the UNMOs, and on the roadside,
19 as we approached Srebrenica, we could see dead bodies
20 on the roadside, next to buildings, and all that, all
21 the way up to the Srebrenica town itself. Inside
22 there, we went to the hospital, where we found some six
23 old women, and we told them there that we wanted to go
24 with them to Potocari, for their own safety, and also
25 for them to be checked medically, but one of the women
1 said that she does not want to leave Srebrenica. She
2 resisted. She said she cannot.
3 Unfortunately, one of the BSA soldiers
4 confronted us and said we've got to go with that woman,
5 that woman has got to leave, otherwise they are going
6 to shoot her. So we told her the same thing, and, you
7 know, she did not accept to leave, until we had to
8 force her, physically lift her up, I personally did
9 that, lift her up, put her in our vehicle, and took her
10 down to Srebrenica town -- I mean Potocari DutchBat
11 compound.
12 Q. Finally, Colonel Kingori, based on your
13 observations of General Krstic and the other
14 high-ranking officers who were present in Potocari
15 before, during the transportation of the Muslim
16 civilians out of the enclave, did it appear to you that
17 they were working together to achieve the goal of
18 transporting all of the refugees out of the enclave?
19 A. Certainly they were all working together, for
20 the same cause, just to ensure that all the Muslims
21 leave that place, all of them board those buses and go
22 outside that enclave.
23 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I've concluded my
24 examination of Colonel Kingori.
25 Thank you, Colonel Kingori.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
3 very much, Mr. Harmon.
4 Mr. Petrusic -- Colonel Kingori, you will now
5 be asked some questions by Counsel Petrusic, who
6 represents the defendant General Krstic.
7 You have the floor, Mr. Petrusic.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
9 Your Honours; good morning, my learned friends.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:
11 Q. Good morning, Colonel. The other five
12 officers, UN UNMOs in the enclave, arrived at the same
13 time you did?
14 A. No, they did not.
15 Q. And other UNMOs, did they have contacts with
16 Muslim either/or Serb officers during their stay there
17 apart from of you, I mean, and independently of you?
18 A. Yes, they were. We were all working
19 together, but at times they could contact them in my
20 absence.
21 Q. Did they submit some reports independently of
22 you, after their contacts with representatives of the
23 Muslims -- that is, Serb side?
24 A. That is not true because any report that was
25 being made from outside, whatever observations the UNMO
1 made outside, they had to bring them together, we'd
2 compile now as a team, and transmit it. So I knew
3 almost everything.
4 Q. Colonel Kingori, the commander of the Muslim
5 army in Srebrenica was Nasir Oric, wasn't he?
6 A. Yes. We were told there was a Nasir Oric,
7 who I personally never met.
8 Q. And the chief of staff was Ramiz Becirovic,
9 wasn't he?
10 A. That is true.
11 Q. And the military organisation, headed by Oric
12 with Becirovic as the chief of staff, was that military
13 organisation the 28th Division?
14 A. Your Honour, we had the 28th Division, but
15 the way it was organised was not the same way a
16 conventional army is organised, or the way orders are
17 taken -- orders are given, executed, and also feedback
18 given, it was not the same way as we had with the BSA.
19 Q. You mean the whole setup was different in the
20 army of Bosnian Muslims in the area of Srebrenica? The
21 organisation was different.
22 A. Your Honour, that is not what I mean, because
23 any military organisation is different from the other.
24 But I mean for the proper functioning of a military
25 organisation, there are definite components and ways of
1 executing their laws that is definitely followed. That
2 did not seem to be there with the BSA -- with the BiH,
3 as it was with the BSA.
4 Q. But the army of Bosnian Muslims in
5 Srebrenica, it had the commander, the chief of staff,
6 and their assistants. Would it not be part of their
7 organisational layout?
8 A. I don't think that we can call that an
9 organisation because, for one, to have an organised
10 army or armed forces, at least the basic component has
11 got to be the personnel and their arms. These people
12 did not have the personnel, that is, the soldiers, as
13 far as we knew. They also did not have arms. All
14 their heavy weapons were in the DutchBat compound; all
15 their machine-guns were also there. So maybe what
16 could have been outside was small arms. But, I mean,
17 what can an army with just rifles be doing? And that
18 is why I'm saying that that was not an organised army.
19 The BiH was not an organised army as such.
20 Q. In view of the relief of the territory, that
21 is, that area around Srebrenica is a mountainous area,
22 there were infantry units because it was even
23 impossible to position heavy weapons in that area, in
24 view of the mountainous terrain.
25 A. As far as I know, heavy weapons such as
1 artillery is better positioned when it's behind hills,
2 where it cannot be observed by the enemy or where it is
3 difficult for the enemy to target it, and because it is
4 a high trajectory, it can hit the enemy on the other
5 side of the hills, so it doesn't matter whether there
6 are hills or not. The artillery could be there if they
7 wished to have them, or rather should have been there
8 as a component of the army.
9 Q. Colonel Kingori, members of the BSA, with
10 their liaison officers, Major Nikolic and Major
11 Vukovic, did you hear them complain of helicopters
12 flying into the area during your stay in Srebrenica?
13 A. Your Honour, there was one time that we were
14 told in a meeting in Bratunac by Colonel Vukovic that a
15 helicopter had been heard flying into the enclave, and
16 it was shot down by the BSA. And it was -- as he said,
17 it was coming in support of the Muslims but they shot
18 it down. That is one instance that we had concerning a
19 helicopter. And when we asked him where the occupants
20 of the helicopter went to, he did not give us an
21 answer. And then after that, when we went to the BiH
22 site, we asked them if they knew of any helicopter that
23 had entered the enclave. They also denied having seen
24 any helicopter. They also denied that a helicopter had
25 crashed. But later on we gathered information from the
1 locals that a helicopter had actually crashed inside
2 the enclave and that some of the injured people were
3 the chief of staff, that is, Ramiz, and later on in
4 later meetings we could see he was limping, he was
5 injured in the legs. So it's true it happened.
6 Q. Colonel Kingori, during your testimony on
7 Friday, you said that in early June a meeting had been
8 organised, and you mentioned it today, at the Bratunac
9 Hotel, and that meeting was attended by Major Nikolic,
10 Colonel Vukovic, and another high-ranking officer,
11 whose face was shown you on the ELMO in Prosecutor's
12 Exhibit 28/4. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And that third officer, did he rank higher
15 than Nikolic and Vukovic, or didn't he?
16 A. That officer was -- as far as we thought, was
17 slightly higher or above Nikolic.
18 Q. Did the three of them come from the same
19 formation in the Bosnian Serb army?
20 A. With that, I'm not very sure, but I know
21 there were two formations around the Srebrenica
22 enclave, and they could have come from either or both
23 of them.
24 Q. Could you tell us which were those two
25 formations?
1 A. I know there was the Drina Corps and the
2 other one. I can't remember the actual names, but I
3 have them on record somewhere.
4 Q. These other persons, were they also from the
5 Drina Corps?
6 A. I think they were. I think they were, but
7 for record purposes, I'm not really sure whether they
8 were from the Drina Corps or not.
9 Q. Colonel Kingori, in your conversations with
10 Vukovic and Nikolic, did you ever learn who had
11 appointed them as liaison officers with you, or rather
12 with the UN military observers in general?
13 A. We were never told who appointed them.
14 Q. You don't know to whom they were responsible
15 in respect of that?
16 A. Well, there was the normal BSA hierarchy.
17 Since they all belonged to the Bosnian Serb army, Major
18 Nikolic was a lower person, we had Vukovic, we had
19 Krstic, Acamovic, and all that, all the way up to
20 General Ratko Mladic's level. So there were other
21 stages which I definitely cannot be able to tell who
22 was filling which post, but at least they were all in
23 that setup of the BSA service.
24 Q. During that meeting, you said that Vukovic
25 had made a proposal for a safe passage for the
1 evacuation of Muslims towards Tuzla.
2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
3 may I show this to Colonel Kingori. This is his
4 statement, the statement that he gave to the
5 Prosecutors of this Tribunal on the 23rd, 24th, 25th of
6 September, 1997.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Exhibit D10.
8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Colonel Kingori, this is your statement, is
10 it not?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. On page 4, third paragraph from the bottom,
13 you say: "Again he reiterated the offer to open a safe
14 passage to evacuate the Muslims towards Tuzla."
15 A. Yes, I said that.
16 Q. On the basis of that, you concluded, Colonel
17 Kingori, that there had been a plan concerning the
18 events that would take place in July.
19 A. Yes, I said that.
20 Q. Colonel Kingori, could you now perhaps tell
21 us what were other elements of this plan that may have
22 been discussed at the meeting, and on the basis of
23 which you reached your conclusion? Was there anything
24 else in addition to what you have stated in this
25 statement?
1 A. It is very clear from this statement, if you
2 can read the whole of it, the whole paragraph, that is,
3 the third paragraph from the bottom, that in one of the
4 areas, that is, the second line, where I say -- no, the
5 third one: "During the dinner, Colonel Vukovic
6 insisted on trying to find out what would be the
7 reaction of the UN in case the BSA would capture the
8 enclave and expel the population."
9 What this means is that the something they
10 had really discussed, something he was trying to pass
11 on to us so that we could also take it on to the
12 Muslims, that they are or they might take the enclave,
13 they might capture the enclave. You can say the way
14 I've written it there. By capturing the enclave, they
15 are not saying that the Muslims are free to live inside
16 the enclave. In fact, he said they would capture the
17 enclave and expel the population. The population here,
18 as far as I can understand, does not mean the BiH
19 soldiers, it literally means all the people living
20 inside that enclave.
21 So if he later on thought of creating a safe
22 passage, it meant they just -- he would clear a way for
23 them to leave, you know, just in case they want to
24 leave -- not in case they want to leave, just in case
25 they have to. He would clear a safe passage for them
1 to go to Tuzla, but of course he did not expect these
2 people to just leave what was theirs, that is, the
3 enclave. And because he did not expect them to leave
4 that way, he knew there would be some resistance, and
5 that is why he had earlier said that he would -- he
6 wanted to know what the UN would do in case they
7 attacked that enclave.
8 So this is something which was preconceived,
9 something they had thought of, maybe even planned, and
10 they were just telling us to pass it on to the Muslims
11 so that they are not blamed for the repercussions.
12 That's how I concluded it.
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, the conclusion that you have
14 just exposed is different from the conclusion made in
15 the statement you gave to the Prosecutor, that is, this
16 conclusion here is far broader. Do you agree with
17 that?
18 A. No, I don't agree. These are similar
19 conclusions.
20 Q. Colonel Kingori, you will agree with me that
21 on the 16th [sic] of July, 250 shells fell on
22 Srebrenica. Is that a correct piece of information?
23 A. That is true.
24 Q. In the course of the following days, after
25 the 6th, the shelling of the town continued; is that
1 correct?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. In your reports, the number you give was
4 between 50 and 100 shells, sometimes even more than
5 that.
6 A. Yes, I remember stating that.
7 Q. The damage caused to the structures in the
8 town of Srebrenica, if we bear in mind the number of
9 shells that fell --
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
11 Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
12 Mr. Harmon, I don't know if you're going to
13 mention the date.
14 Mr. Petrusic, I think that you spoke about
15 the 16th of July, but perhaps you were actually -- you
16 actually wanted to say the 6th of July and not the
17 16th.
18 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
19 Honour, I was speaking about the 6th of July. There
20 may have been an error in interpretation.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Therefore,
22 the transcript will have to be rectified. The date in
23 question is not the 16th of July but the 6th of July.
24 Thank you very much for paying attention to this.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Colonel Kingori, if we bear in mind the
2 number of shells that fell, the damage that was caused
3 in the town of Srebrenica is somewhat out of
4 proportion. Would you agree with that?
5 A. Yes, I do agree.
6 Q. Unfortunately, there were casualties amongst
7 the Muslim civilian population. The number you give is
8 six wounded persons in the town. My question is very
9 similar to the previous one: In view of the number of
10 shells, the number of wounded persons is also out of
11 proportion, however unfortunate it was.
12 A. Yes. On this issue of the number of shells
13 and the number of casualties, we had even remarked
14 somewhere, I know it is somewhere written in this
15 document, that considering the number of shells that
16 landed there, we were lucky to have very few
17 casualties. All there is is that the shells were
18 landing, luckily, if I can call it, on the roads, in
19 the market, somewhere where luckily there are no
20 buildings or there weren't many people there. But
21 where we suspected they thought, that is, the BSA,
22 where they thought there would be people. We're
23 talking about the marketplace, the roads, inside the
24 town of Srebrenica itself, and also the route from
25 Srebrenica to Potocari, and all that, they were
1 targeting those areas. So as I can say, it was just by
2 luck that the damage was that minimal, comparing the
3 number of shells. We are the ones who were counting
4 them, and we could verify that, and we're sure that is
5 the -- the number of shells we have indicated are the
6 same.
7 Concerning the injured, it was not just the
8 injured, there were some who died. It's also on record
9 here.
10 Q. Colonel Kingori, in your statement given to
11 the OTP, on page 6, the penultimate sentence, the
12 second one from the bottom, states as follows: "I did
13 not understand why they were targeting the town in this
14 way. The only explanation was to harass the
15 population, to bring them to flee."
16 MR. HARMON: For the record, and to assist
17 the witness, that is found on page 6, it is the second
18 paragraph from the bottom, the large paragraph, and the
19 statement referred to by counsel is in the middle of
20 that particular paragraph.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
22 counsel. I'm reading from the Serbian translation.
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
24 Mr. Petrusic, I'm very sorry to have to interrupt you
25 again, but due to some exceptional circumstances, we
1 have to stop at 10.45. Maybe we should do so before
2 Colonel Kingori gives his answer, because if we let him
3 answer your question, we will be way above that time.
4 So please I should like to have a 20-minute break now.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
8 Mr. Petrusic, you can continue now.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,
10 Mr. President.
11 Q. And so Colonel Kingori, before the break, we
12 were talking about the statement that you made to the
13 Prosecutor's Office and your conclusion that you did
14 not understand why they were shelling the town in this
15 manner, and your conclusion was that the only purpose
16 of this exercise was to intimidate the population, to
17 force them to flee. And this conclusion figured in
18 your report to your superiors, didn't it?
19 A. It did. This one did, but at the same time,
20 it's also on record somewhere in these documents that
21 they were aiming at the populated areas, and definitely
22 the populated areas, you don't just aim there for any
23 other purpose other than for hitting those people who
24 are there, the inhabitants.
25 On the same page, if you can see the second
1 paragraph, where it starts with "The 8th of July," you
2 can see I've said, "Shelling continued on populated
3 areas as targets." This clearly means that they were
4 targeting the populated areas, not just to harass,
5 because you don't aim a gun at someone just to harass
6 or intimidate, but also to kill. You know, the shell,
7 when it lands somewhere, it does not discriminate
8 whether -- I mean, all it does, it can kill, it can
9 kill, although it could intimidate, but it also kills.
10 Q. Colonel Kingori, in attachment 18 to your
11 statement, you once again draw the same conclusion when
12 it comes to the shelling of the Potocari base, and you
13 say that it was quite evident that they were going off
14 the mark, off the target, that is, off the building, on
15 purpose. Is that true? Page 8 of the English version,
16 third paragraph from below.
17 A. I really don't get the actual place.
18 Q. In the English version, page 8, one, two,
19 three, the fourth paragraph from below, and the last
20 sentence of that paragraph, the paragraph beginning
21 with the words "The document attached, number 16 ..."
22 Colonel Kingori, would it be easier if --
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
24 Mr. Petrusic.
25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps it
3 would be simpler if you gave us the paragraph, you say
4 the fourth from below, on page 8, perhaps you could
5 tell us how the paragraph begins. It will be easier to
6 identify it.
7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
8 Mr. President. It begins with the words "They were
9 obviously deliberately missing the buildings."
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Because
11 even I can't find that passage. I was saying the
12 paragraph begins with -- the paragraph begins how? Is
13 it "The document attached number 16 is incomplete
14 because ..." is that it, and after that, it would be
15 one, two, three, four, five, the sixth line --
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
17 precisely.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Colonel
19 Kingori, have you found it?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
22 Yes. Proceed. Thank you.
23 A. Now, if you can read the preceding lines, and
24 especially the second sentence on the same paragraph,
25 where it starts "It mentions that from 1845 to 2051, 45
1 shells over flew the compound," by this I mean the
2 Dutch Battalion compound, "causing a lot of panic among
3 the refugees." So if you can relate that to the
4 sentence that you're talking about, "They obviously
5 were deliberately missing the buildings," I'm talking
6 about the buildings in the DutchBat compound. That is
7 the reference I have. That is the reference I'm using,
8 that they were deliberately missing the UNPROFOR -- the
9 DutchBat headquarters, and that is where the shells
10 were over flying. In other words, if they wanted to
11 hit it, they could have gotten it, definitely.
12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, you knew Emir Suljajic,
14 didn't you?
15 A. Yes, I did. He was our interpreter from the
16 BiH side.
17 Q. And he only worked as an interpreter.
18 A. He was our interpreter, one of them, because
19 there were two.
20 Q. Colonel Kingori, did Emir Suljajic tell you
21 that between 1250 and 1350 in Srebrenica there were 49
22 shells recorded?
23 A. That is true, he did.
24 Q. Likewise, the two shells fell in the vicinity
25 of the hospital.
1 A. Correct. He told us that.
2 Q. Could then one infer that it was on the basis
3 of his information that you reported to your command
4 about those 49 shells, or rather two shells barely
5 missing the hospital?
6 A. The reason why we used this information was
7 that we could not be able to go to that --
8 Q. No.
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I apologise,
10 Mr. President. If I may, and I should also like to
11 apologise to the witness, whether the information was
12 used in order to notify the higher command, that is, I
13 should like to receive a brief answer without any
14 explanations.
15 MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours,
16 I would request that the witness be permitted to
17 provide explanations if explanations clarify his
18 answer.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
20 Mr. Petrusic, could you repeat your question, please.
21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did Colonel Kingori use the information he
23 received from Emir Suljajic to send it on to the higher
24 command in his report?
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Colonel
1 Kingori, will you answer this question truthfully,
2 truthfully. But we shall hear the answer of the
3 witness, Mr. Petrusic.
4 Colonel Kingori, yes.
5 A. Your Honour, on this occasion what happened
6 was that we were unable to go for patrols. We were
7 unable to go to Srebrenica itself to see what was going
8 on. So as our own initiative, because we wanted to
9 know what was happening, we decided to send one of our
10 interpreters who, after some discussion with him on how
11 he's going to get to that place, that is, Srebrenica,
12 investigate what is going on, report to us using the
13 radio set that we had given him, and then we used that
14 information.
15 The point here was that we were unable to go
16 there.
17 Secondly, even in the sitrep that we sent to
18 the UN headquarters, we said -- we actually wrote the
19 word "NCBU", to mean "not confirmed by UNMOs". It is
20 evident it is there, something we have not clarified,
21 we have not confirmed ourselves. We had to indicate.
22 So it was not meant for any other purpose other than to
23 update us on what is going on. But we could not
24 clarify, we could not confirm, and we reported it that
25 way.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The
2 question, Colonel Kingori, is whether the information
3 obtained in this manner was then communicated to your
4 superiors.
5 A. Your Honour, it was, but with the words
6 "NCBU," not confirmed by UNMOs.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Mr. Petrusic, does that answer satisfy you?
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
10 Mr. President, thank you. I have only a few questions
11 more, and I hope you will bear with me and I hope the
12 witness will bear with me too.
13 Q. Colonel Kingori, did you see General Krstic
14 arrive in Potocari on the 12th of July?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. When was that, approximately?
17 A. I cannot remember the actual timing, but it
18 was somewhere in the middle of the day, somewhere
19 there. I'm not very sure of the actual timing, but he
20 came together with Major Nikolic and the other senior
21 officers.
22 Q. In your testimony on Friday, you said that
23 Krstic issued orders to soldiers.
24 A. What I said, and I can remember very well,
25 was that when we were together with General Mladic and
1 the other officers, some of the senior officers,
2 including Krstic, would go out to their soldiers, I
3 could see them going to their soldiers who were lined
4 up by the side of the road or in buildings or
5 somewhere, who were around there, and he would talk to
6 them. And immediately you could see them dispatch or
7 go somewhere, or something like that; that means,
8 obviously, he was giving orders to them. Not just him
9 alone, but other people like Colonel Vukovic and all
10 that, they would still go there, give orders, and then
11 come back. So I saw that.
12 Q. Colonel Kingori, in view of an organisational
13 layout, or rather hierarchial order in the army, and it
14 is if not identical then very similar in all the armies
15 of the world, would you think from that point of view,
16 would you think it normal for a high-ranking officer,
17 that is, a General, yet in the presence of lower
18 ranking officers, would you think it natural and
19 logical for him to issue orders to the troops?
20 A. What was happening in this case was a bit
21 different from the normal, because even in normal
22 circumstances someone of General Mladic's level could
23 not issue orders to the soldiers, but he was. So they
24 were doing it.
25 Q. Could you tell us how long did General Krstic
1 stay in that particular area?
2 A. Well, I cannot tell for sure, but at least I
3 know we were together for quite some time, not in the
4 same location but at least he was in that vicinity for
5 quite some time. Let's say over an hour, it was
6 something like that, but I did not know where he went
7 after that. But the following day he was still
8 around. That means that he was somewhere there, even
9 if he left, maybe he just went and came back to
10 continue with his work.
11 Q. Colonel Kingori, you reported to your command
12 about the presence of the Bosnian Serb army officers in
13 Potocari, didn't you?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Did you also report the presence of General
16 Krstic there?
17 A. Your Honour, I did not. Same with other
18 senior officers, I did not report about every senior
19 officer that was there. There were so many.
20 Q. But the rule was to notify the superior
21 command about the presence of officers; would that be
22 correct to say?
23 A. Well, you can say you could have reported,
24 but then you would not be able to report on every
25 senior officer who was there. It was impossible,
1 considering the circumstances that we were in, and also
2 considering that we were doing a lot of things at least
3 together for these refugees. Also to cope, and we were
4 just two observers, to cope with the refugees, cope
5 with the military situation in that area, cope with the
6 food situation, water, and all those things. We could
7 not have been able to concentrate on each and every
8 senior officer there.
9 Q. And did you report about the presence of
10 Mladic?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. You also reported about the presence of
13 Vukovic.
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Likewise, you reported about the presence of
16 Colonel Acamovic, I believe.
17 A. Correct, I did.
18 Q. You also reported about the presence of Major
19 Nikolic.
20 A. Yes, I did. Nikolic at least was with us
21 throughout.
22 Q. You mentioned a number of higher ranking
23 officers therefore. You said that they were present on
24 the location. The only officer whose presence you did
25 not report to your command was General Krstic; is that
1 correct?
2 A. That's not correct. I believe that there
3 were other senior officers who we did not report on.
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
5 this concludes my cross-examination of this witness.
6 Thank you.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
8 Mr. Petrusic.
9 Mr. Harmon, do you have any additional
10 questions?
11 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions,
12 Mr. President.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you,
14 Mr. Harmon.
15 Judge Fouad Riad.
16 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you,
17 Mr. President.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Colonel Kingori.
20 A. Good morning, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE RIAD: I have been listening very
22 carefully to your very thorough testimony, and still I
23 would like to ask you a few questions to see things
24 clearer.
25 In one of your -- in one of the films you
1 have just seen concerning, in particular, General
2 Krstic with a journalist, he said -- it is Exhibit 67.
3 He mentioned at the end, "We are not afraid of
4 airstrikes. We are going all the way." Now, what did
5 he mean by "We are going all the way"?
6 A. Your Honour, the interpretation to that is
7 that he meant he's going to ensure the enclave is free
8 of all Muslims, to get rid of all the Muslims from the
9 enclave, and that is the way that he meant.
10 JUDGE RIAD: Because I'm just putting this
11 together with another declaration by Colonel Vukovic.
12 I think you said that in a meeting, when you had the
13 meeting with the high-grade officers, he mentioned that
14 Muslims should leave the enclave in their totality, if
15 not they would be all killed. Do you think these two
16 statements are coherent? I mean, was the one
17 confirming what the other one was saying, to leave or
18 be killed?
19 A. Your Honour, that confirms what the earlier
20 statement was all about.
21 JUDGE RIAD: And in your opinion, who was
22 higher in grade, Vukovic or General Krstic? Was he a
23 General at the time?
24 A. I did not know him as a General. I knew him
25 as a Colonel.
1 JUDGE RIAD: You did not know him as a
2 General. He was a Colonel too.
3 A. Yes, he was a Colonel.
4 JUDGE RIAD: The Defence counsel was
5 mentioning that a General cannot give orders to
6 soldiers. In relation to what was happening, soldiers
7 doing all that you mentioned, including stealing your
8 glasses and stealing civilians and your own people,
9 United Nations people, was any action taken to stop
10 this?
11 A. Your Honour, the only action I can remember
12 was concerning my sunglasses. Nothing else was being
13 done to stop whatever was going on inside that enclave,
14 and especially in Potocari. No senior officer tried to
15 stop it.
16 JUDGE RIAD: But you brought always
17 complaints about what was happening. I mean, of course
18 your sunglasses are precious to you, but other lives
19 were also involved. But did you always bring
20 complaints to the higher authorities among the Serbs?
21 A. Your Honour, I was always doing that, but
22 nothing was being done about the whole thing.
23 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. And the answer of the
24 Defence counsel, he said, "Because Generals cannot give
25 orders to soldiers." Were these soldiers more or less
1 undisciplined, they would do everything, or was there a
2 real discipline in the army and they could receive
3 orders from their superiors?
4 A. Your Honour, these soldiers could receive
5 orders from their superiors. It's only that they were
6 not following, that is, they were not -- I don't know
7 what I can say, whether they were not obeying. But the
8 senior officers could give the officers, we could see
9 them telling them to do something extra or to go to a
10 certain place, and they could go. But concerning this
11 particular issue of the atrocities or doing something
12 bad to the civilians or to us, no one was telling them
13 to stop it. I could not hear anyone telling them
14 that.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Good. So I would like to have a
16 very precise conclusion. There was a firm command, if
17 I understood you rightly, a firm chain of command, I
18 remember your words, which means that a General can
19 give orders to his, let us say, to the people who are
20 lower in grade, and so on, until they reach the
21 soldiers, and in between this chain there was nothing
22 irregular. I mean, each one could be obeyed by his
23 superior.
24 A. Your Honour, that is true.
25 JUDGE RIAD: A real army.
1 A. A real army. It was a real organised army.
2 JUDGE RIAD: You just mentioned that not only
3 that it was -- that they were highly equipped with
4 tanks and with heavy military weapons and so on. Were
5 the Muslims equally equipped?
6 A. Your Honour, the Muslims did not have
7 anything as compared to what the BSA had. They did not
8 have tanks, they did not have artillery, they did not
9 have mortars, they did not have machine-guns. In fact,
10 during my whole stay there, I saw only one machine-gun
11 belonging to the BiH. And that as compared to what the
12 BSA had, it was nothing.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Did the Muslims have inside
14 Srebrenica, did they have hidden weapons? You
15 mentioned, for instance, that the hospital was hit and
16 missed three times by a few metres. Was the hospital
17 used to hide weapons, for instance? That's why they
18 were trying to target it. They targeted, you said,
19 civilians. Were civilians used as a shield to hide
20 weapons?
21 A. Your Honour, as far as I know, and I
22 inspected that hospital, there were no soldiers there
23 and there was no military base or headquarters or an
24 ammo depot, or something like that, inside that
25 hospital. There was none at all.
1 JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that they were
2 shelling the civilians not only to force them to flee
3 but also to have casualties. Did I understand that
4 rightly?
5 A. It's true, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE RIAD: All right. And in the event
7 where they were, in fact, forcing them to flee, were
8 they able to flee?
9 A. Your Honour, they could not be able to flee
10 because they were being bombarded from all sides.
11 There was no escape route, there was no where that they
12 could have gone through to go to wherever. So they
13 were actually all forced to one area, towards
14 Potocari.
15 JUDGE RIAD: They were forced to what area?
16 A. Towards Potocari. Even those that were --
17 not on the western side, those who were in the eastern
18 side, the Sudisuta [phoen] village and all that, they
19 were all forced to come to Srebrenica, and I testified
20 that they all left to Potocari. So they were
21 channelled to one area.
22 JUDGE RIAD: But I conclude from what you
23 said that it was not to let them free --
24 A. It was not to let them free, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE RIAD: It was to destroyed.
1 A. My main concern and what I could get from all
2 that shelling was to cause maximum casualties.
3 JUDGE RIAD: And, of course, you brought that
4 up to your superiors.
5 A. Yes, Your Honour, I did that.
6 JUDGE RIAD: And nothing happened.
7 A. Something that was planned, that is, for the
8 airstrikes to hit the military target for the BSA, but
9 the airstrikes did not produce much. In fact, the only
10 thing that they managed to hit was one tank, and I
11 think one -- and I think one bridge or something like
12 that. One tank, and it's on record here somewhere, I
13 don't know whether it was a bridge or artillery piece.
14 I'm not very sure, but that was the only thing they
15 managed to hit.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Who are "they"?
17 A. The NATO.
18 JUDGE RIAD: But then they could not
19 continue.
20 A. They could not continue.
21 JUDGE RIAD: Was that to save you?
22 A. In fact, at that time the reason they did not
23 continue was to save the whole enclave. Because the
24 BSA called us for a meeting and they said, if the
25 airstrikes continue, if they continue, they are going
1 to finish the whole enclave. They said that. So we
2 had no choice but to tell the UN whatever was
3 happening.
4 And also one thing to remember there is that
5 immediately, just before the airstrikes, we were called
6 for a meeting by the BSA, which we were not allowed to
7 go, as I had said earlier.
8 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry?
9 A. We were not allowed to attend just because
10 the UN feared that we might be taken as human shields
11 against the airstrikes.
12 JUDGE RIAD: So you were in danger, in fact.
13 A. We were in danger ourselves.
14 JUDGE RIAD: You were in real danger.
15 A. Yes, we were.
16 JUDGE RIAD: And you explained that in the
17 meetings with the high-grade officials, the high-grade
18 officers, of the -- Vukovic and the other ones whom you
19 met?
20 A. Your Honour, I did that. We explained to
21 them but they were always assuring us that they don't
22 have anything against UNPROFOR, they've got nothing
23 against us at all. All they wanted was the Muslims.
24 But then when a shell lands somewhere where you are, it
25 does not discriminate whether you are Muslim, whether
1 you are UNMO, or whether you are UNPROFOR. It can hit
2 and kill you all.
3 JUDGE RIAD: And you felt that in the
4 meetings with these officers, they were all one -- one
5 opinion, or did somebody prove some opposition? For
6 instance, when Colonel Vukovic would tell you, "If the
7 Muslims do not leave, they will all be killed." I
8 think there were other officers including -- I don't
9 know the other names. Was General Krstic with them?
10 A. At that time he was not there. I did not
11 notice him.
12 JUDGE RIAD: You did not notice him?
13 A. I did not notice him. But no other senior
14 officer ever opposed whatever was said, like that
15 meeting when he said he was going to kill all of them,
16 no one opposed it, no one talked against it at all.
17 JUDGE RIAD: No one. You mentioned that on
18 the 12th of July you noticed the arrival of new Serb
19 soldiers who were different from other BSA soldiers.
20 In what way were they different? And do you think they
21 were from other parts than Bosnia?
22 A. Your Honour, these soldiers who came first
23 wore black, as compared to the normal camouflage, green
24 camouflage, that we were used to on the BSA side. You
25 know, BSA could have the normal camouflage that is
1 green, also blue for, I think, the police. But then
2 these guys were in black, and we believed they were
3 from Arkan's Brigade, which was part of the brigades in
4 that area.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.
6 A. Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE RIAD: It's from that area --
8 A. They were from Arkan's. We suspected from
9 they were from Arkan's Brigade.
10 JUDGE RIAD: And Arkan's Brigade came from
11 Bosnia.
12 A. Arkan's Brigade, as far as I knew, was
13 headquartered somewhere in Erdut. That was in eastern
14 Slavonia. That was where it was headquartered. And it
15 was very feared, it included masonries, people from
16 other countries who could go to fight and then be paid
17 for it or something like that.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Paid for by whom?
19 A. Paid for by the guys they were fighting for.
20 Like, in this case, it should have been the Bosnian
21 Serbs who were paying for it.
22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. Thank you,
23 Colonel Kingori.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
1 very much, Judge Riad.
2 Judge Wald.
3 JUDGE WALD: Colonel Kingori, I have only
4 basically one question. The Prosecutor's Exhibit 67,
5 the film clip of the journalist's interview with
6 General Krstic, he makes the following statement: "The
7 Drina Corps has been conducting this operation
8 successfully. We have not suspended this operation.
9 We are going all the way to liberate the municipality
10 of Srebrenica. We guarantee safety to civilians. They
11 will be taken safely to a destination of their
12 choice."
13 Now, this statement was made at Potocari in
14 July 12th. You were there at the time, as I
15 understand. Not at the interview, but you were in
16 Potocari on the 12th and other days. In reading that
17 statement in light of what you saw during the period
18 you were in Potocari, do you interpret that statement
19 to mean that the Drina Corps is conducting this
20 operation, not just the takeover of Srebrenica, but the
21 evacuation operation which is guaranteeing safety to
22 civilians, according to General Krstic, to a
23 destination of their choice? In short, the Drina Corps
24 was in charge of the whole operation. And would that
25 be consistent with what you observed while you were
1 there?
2 A. Your Honour, what this meant was that they're
3 going to clean the whole of that enclave of the
4 Muslims, ensure that --
5 JUDGE WALD: "That enclave" now meaning
6 Potocari as well as Srebrenica?
7 A. The whole enclave.
8 JUDGE WALD: Okay.
9 A. The whole enclave, to make sure -- of course,
10 they were using the more known villages, that is,
11 Srebrenica and Potocari, but they meant the whole
12 enclave, that it would be free of Muslims and that
13 would be the successful finishing of their job. The
14 only problem I have there is with the free -- to be
15 taken to the place of their choice. That did not
16 happen and that actually was not the case because they
17 were not asked where they wanted to go.
18 JUDGE WALD: No, I understand that part of
19 your prior testimony, Major, but I just want to ask one
20 question over again to make sure I have your answer,
21 and that is: It was your impression, consistent with
22 what General Krstic said, that the Drina Corps was in
23 charge of not only cleaning out the enclaves, making
24 sure that the Muslims, but the evacuation and what
25 happened to the people, whatever happened to them, that
1 they were taking charge of that whole operation.
2 A. As far as I know, they were taking full
3 responsibility of all that.
4 JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
6 very much, Judge Wald.
7 Colonel Kingori, I have only two questions
8 for you. You testified at some point, in response to a
9 question that was put to you by Mr. Harmon, that Serbs
10 had been the aggressor in that case. Could you now
11 tell us what was the result or conclusion of your
12 observations on the basis of which you could state
13 that?
14 A. Your Honour, this was based on basically what
15 the Muslims had, comparing what the Muslims had, and
16 what the Bosnian Serbs had, and also the activities
17 which were going on at that particular time. It meant
18 that it was the Muslims who are receiving, from the
19 BSA, than actually what was going out from the Muslim
20 side. In fact, we did not record anything going out
21 from the Muslim side. That means if it is the Serbs,
22 the Bosnian Serbs, who were actually directing their
23 fire against the Muslims, it meant obviously they were
24 the -- they -- what can I call it? They were the
25 aggressors, they were the aggressors, as far as we
1 knew. And also for the start of this fight in the
2 enclave, they are the ones who started, they are the
3 ones who started hitting the enclave. It was not the
4 other way around. That means that they are the ones
5 who started it, and therefore they remained the
6 aggressors, as far as we could guess.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second
8 question is the following: In order to ask this
9 question, I should need assistance of the technical
10 room. I need Exhibits, Prosecution Exhibits 79A, first
11 of all, and then after that one, 67A.
12 I shall like to ask you, Colonel Kingori, to
13 watch carefully the bodyguards of General Mladic on
14 that footage and also to have a look at the bodyguards
15 of General Krstic, if it is possible. And after that
16 I'm going to ask my question.
17 [Videotape played]
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think
19 this will be enough for the purpose of my question. If
20 you can please stop here and show us the next exhibit,
21 that is, 67A.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] It is
23 actually Exhibit 66, because it is only the video clip
24 that we need here.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm
1 sorry. Could we see it now, please.
2 [Videotape played]
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
4 Okay. Very well. My question for you, Colonel
5 Kingori, is the following: Do you see any link, any
6 connection, between the bodyguards of General Mladic
7 and bodyguards of General Krstic? I do not wish to
8 lead you in your answer. Perhaps you can answer my
9 question the way it has been put to you. Do you think
10 there is any connection, any link, between the two? Do
11 you think that we are talking about the same persons,
12 or are they different persons?
13 A. Your Honour, I don't understand whether you
14 mean whether they are the same person, that is, General
15 Krstic and General Mladic, or what do you mean?
16 Because these are two different people altogether.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Your
18 conclusion, therefore, is that they were bodyguards.
19 I have another question for you. Were you
20 present when General Mladic was being interviewed and
21 when General Krstic was being interviewed as well?
22 Were you present at those two occasions?
23 A. Your Honour, I was present when General
24 Mladic was being interviewed, but when Krstic was being
25 interviewed, I was not there. But I'm sure I was just
1 somewhere around there, but I did not witness it.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My question
3 was the following, actually: This blonde soldier who
4 seemed to be a bodyguard of General Mladic, was he the
5 same as the one who was with General Krstic?
6 A. Your Honour, I was not very observant on
7 that, so I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] That's
9 okay. You have answered my questions. Thank you very
10 much, Colonel Kingori. I don't think we have any more
11 questions for you. Thank you very much for coming here
12 to testify before the International Criminal Tribunal.
13 We know that you spent some very difficult moments
14 there in the area. Thank you very much for coming and
15 we wish you a safe journey home.
16 But before we let you go, I think that we
17 have to check on the status of certain exhibits.
18 Mr. Dubuisson or Mr. Harmon.
19 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I would move for
20 admission into evidence the following Prosecutor's
21 Exhibits: Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/1, 28/3.2, 28/8.1;
22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/3B; Prosecutor's Exhibit 58;
23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 66; 67A and B, which are
24 transcripts from the video of the interview with
25 General Krstic; Prosecutor's Exhibit 76, which is the
1 film clip where Colonel Kingori has identified an
2 individual who attempted to steal his sunglasses;
3 Prosecutor's Exhibit 75; Prosecutor's Exhibit 77, which
4 are United Nations military observer reports and
5 UNPROFOR reports. There are 37 such reports in the
6 binder. Prosecutor's Exhibit 78, which is a film clip
7 of Bosnian Serb soldiers handing out candy;
8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 79 and 79A and B, the interview of
9 General Mladic and the transcripts relating thereto.
10 I believe, if I'm correct, that should
11 conclude all of the exhibits that the Prosecutor has
12 tendered through this witness.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
14 Mr. Petrusic, do you have any objections or remarks
15 concerning these exhibits?
16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
17 just one thing that I should like to check. The
18 exhibit that was shown on your request, 66A, is that
19 the video clip of the interview given by General
20 Krstic? Has that been tendered into evidence by the
21 Prosecution? Is that the Exhibit 66 that we are
22 talking about?
23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
24 Mr. Harmon.
25 MR. HARMON: Yes, 66 is the video clip and
1 66A and B are the transcripts that relate to the video
2 clip.
3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence
4 does not object to the exhibits tendered by the
5 Prosecution, save for the Exhibit 66 and for the
6 following reason: Until today the Defence has not been
7 able to check the locality, the specific location where
8 the material was filmed. As regards all of the
9 remaining exhibits, we do not have any objections.
10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
11 as regards the exhibit in question, do you wish to say
12 something?
13 MR. HARMON: I do. This witness has viewed
14 the video, he was present in Potocari, he has
15 identified a relevant building that's in the background
16 as being in Potocari, in addition to which we will
17 present additional evidence from Mr. Ruez, who will be
18 able to identify the exact location in Potocari where
19 the interview of General Krstic occurred. But I think
20 it's sufficient for purposes of introduction of this
21 exhibit that this witness has identified the exhibit as
22 having been filmed in Potocari, and from the context of
23 the statement that is -- 67A clearly supports the time
24 and probably the location where this film was taken.
25 But more directly, as I say, this witness has
1 specifically identified the location where the
2 interview in Potocari took place. So we would move to
3 admit 66, the film clip, at this time.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
5 Mr. Petrusic, your objection needs some explanation for
6 the Chamber. Do you object to the authenticity of the
7 document, or if there is another purpose in your
8 objection?
9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
10 the authenticity of the document and the interview
11 given by General Krstic is not objected to by the
12 Defence. However, so far we have not been able to
13 ascertain the particular location of the interview,
14 because in the background of the video clip there is
15 something which we cannot precisely identify. We
16 cannot identify the structures that were referred to by
17 Mr. Ruez here before the Chamber. Colonel Kingori, if
18 I may paraphrase his answer, stated that it was
19 somewhere outside Potocari, if I was careful enough
20 following his testimony, if I'm correct in quoting
21 him.
22 So for these reasons the Defence will have to
23 adopt a position on this particular exhibit, we will
24 have to make a representation on that, and so far, as I
25 have already stated, we have not been able to verify
1 the location.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
3 very much, Mr. Petrusic. You may sit down. I think
4 that Colonel Kingori was not -- did not agree to your
5 quotation. The witness is still here, so let me ask
6 the question once again.
7 Colonel Kingori, as regards this particular
8 video clip, do you have anything else to add? You
9 remember the exhibit in question is Exhibit 66, that
10 is, the interview given by General Krstic.
11 A. Your Honour, I remember this particular clip,
12 and even when I was answering, I said it was somewhere
13 in Potocari, not outside Potocari. In that area, if
14 you look at that video clip, you can see some buildings
15 which are behind there. I could easily identify those
16 buildings. There is one where there is a mosque
17 somewhere there, and I know where those buildings were
18 in Potocari. They were -- as you leave Potocari,
19 towards -- as you leave the DutchBat compound, towards
20 Srebrenica village, it was, I think, the third factory
21 somewhere there. I can easily locate the place. It's
22 only that myself personally, I was not there during the
23 interview, but I can identify that place.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you
25 very much, Colonel Kingori.
1 Mr. Petrusic, as regards your exhibits, I
2 believe it was the Exhibit D10. Do you wish to tender
3 it into evidence?
4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
5 Honour, you're right. We should like to tender D10
6 into evidence.
7 MR. HARMON: The Prosecution has no
8 objection.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Thank you. Mr. Harmon does not have any objections to
11 this exhibit.
12 Let me consult with my colleagues before I
13 make a ruling.
14 [Trial Chamber deliberates]
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Exhibits
16 that have been tendered by the Prosecutor, including
17 Exhibit 66, and the Defence Exhibit as well, D10, will
18 be admitted into evidence.
19 Colonel Kingori, now this is really the end
20 of your testimony. Thank you very much, and have a
21 safe journey home.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your
23 Honour.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
1 what's next? Could you tell us about your following
2 witness? Could you perhaps announce any protective
3 measures?
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MR. HARMON: Our next witness, Mr. President,
6 is Mrs. Malagic, and she does not require any
7 protection.
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 Thank you. I think this would be a convenient time for
10 a break, before we begin with the testimony of
11 Mrs. Malagic. However, before we go into recess, I
12 should like to say something to the parties. I know
13 that there is a decision, a ruling pending, the
14 decision regarding the contact with witnesses after
15 they have been sworn in. I should like to hear you on
16 that once again, because we're inclining -- we're
17 inclined to decide that the witness, having been sworn
18 in, should not have contact with the parties, unless
19 there are some exceptional circumstances, and in that
20 case, the Chamber should be informed thereof; that is,
21 the Chamber should be informed about the need, the
22 necessity, to contact the witness.
23 Now, why do I say that? I think that the
24 witness, having been sworn in, does no longer belong to
25 any party, and he or she belongs to the justice, if I
1 may say so. So we are in favour of that decision.
2 However, as I have already told you, the way we
3 exercise our authority is somehow an explicative way.
4 So I should like to hear you once again. Perhaps we
5 should hear the Defence first, because it was the
6 Defence who made the application.
7 Mr. Visnjic or ...
8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
9 Your Honours, that was indeed our suggestion; however,
10 it was following the consultation with our learned
11 friend from the Prosecution our suggestion was modified
12 and we agreed that it would be at the end of the
13 examination-in-chief.
14 What I wish to say now is the Prosecution has
15 already called so many of their witnesses, and unless
16 we take -- unless this decision is taken now, then I
17 think we shall enjoy less equality than they did. If
18 we have to submit anything, we should like to submit
19 the suggestion, the proposal, that was formulated
20 jointly with the Prosecution.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
22 what is your view? What do you think about this, if I
23 may call it that, the proposal of the Chamber?
24 MR. HARMON: In respect to the proposal of
25 the Chamber, which is to have no contact after the
1 witness has been sworn, it's something certainly the
2 Prosecutor can -- would support. We believed it to be
3 perhaps more efficacious if we had the ability to have
4 contacts with witnesses after their -- after they had
5 been sworn but before they had concluded their direct
6 examination, in situations, for example, like the last
7 witness, where, after he testified on Friday, he was
8 shown a significant piece of film footage and was able
9 to observe it and make observations about it. However,
10 we also could make an application to the Chamber under
11 certain circumstances, if we thought it was important,
12 if there were exceptional circumstances.
13 We're prepared, Mr. President --
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,
15 if I may cut in, I forgot about one element. Having
16 taken the solemn declaration, the parties may have
17 contact with the witness in the presence, however, of
18 the other party. That is a small detail that I forgot
19 to mention, and I do apologise. Perhaps I was not
20 clear enough.
21 MR. HARMON: So as I understand the Court's
22 proposal, after the witness has been sworn, there can
23 be no contact, and if there is, there has to be an
24 application made to the Trial Chamber and the contact
25 has to be in the presence of the other party. Do I
1 understand the Chamber correctly?
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. After
3 the oath, there can be no contact unless it is -- but
4 if that proves necessary, you need to communicate with
5 the Chamber, and this contact, this communication, will
6 always be made in the presence of the other party.
7 MR. HARMON: That's acceptable to the
8 Prosecutor's Office, certainly.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, let me just ask you
11 a question about your accession to that. So in other
12 words, it would be acceptable to you that if something
13 came up, some so-called exceptional circumstance that
14 you needed to consult with your witness before the
15 witness had finished on direct, you would be willing to
16 do that in the presence of Defence counsel?
17 MR. HARMON: Let me answer your question in a
18 certain way, and that's this: We have ongoing
19 investigations. Those investigations are continuing as
20 we continue in this trial and we develop additional
21 evidence. Now, under some circumstances, it may be I
22 would have no objection. In other circumstances, I
23 would have an objection because the circumstances --
24 perhaps the newly developed evidence may impinge not
25 only on the accused but other people, and in that
1 respect, it would be sensitive.
2 So as I sit and think of the proposition of
3 the Trial Chamber, I think it's difficult to give an
4 absolute answer to Your Honour. In every case would I
5 be happy to have the Defence counsel present? Probably
6 not. I would be happy, as an officer of the court, to
7 have contact with a witness after the oath has been
8 given and after I have the Court's permission to do so,
9 to have contact with that witness to discuss the
10 relevant matter that I brought to the attention of the
11 Court only.
12 As I think about it, I think it would
13 probably not be an appropriate situation to have
14 Defence counsel present under those circumstances.
15 JUDGE WALD: While I have you there --
16 MR. HARMON: Yes.
17 JUDGE WALD: -- what is your reaction to the
18 Defence counsel's, I think, quite plausible argument
19 that we're in the middle of trial now and we've been
20 operating under one set of rules, and they will suffer
21 a disadvantage if it's suddenly switched.
22 MR. HARMON: We have a lot more witnesses to
23 proceed with, Judge Wald. You're right. In the
24 absolute sense, the rule hasn't been applied equally.
25 It's their motion, not our motion. So when they invite
1 the Court to make a motion on that, it's difficult for
2 me to understand how they can complain and that there's
3 not equality of arms, given that they raise the motion
4 themselves.
5 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon -- sorry.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
7 Mr. Visnjic, could you wait for Judge Riad to ask his
8 question or do you wish to raise something as a point
9 of order?
10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I shall wait,
11 Mr. President.
12 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, a question. Of
13 course you have the interest of the Prosecution in
14 mind. Do you accept to be treated the same way,
15 because he will have the same privilege and he would --
16 I mean, would you rather prefer that you would be
17 present when he contacts his witnesses, or you can
18 undergo the same risk, let's say?
19 MR. HARMON: Whatever the Court's decision
20 is, I think it ought to be the same. Mr. Visnjic,
21 Mr. Petrusic, and I have not talked about this
22 new variation, and perhaps we could have some time to
23 reflect on it and consult about it, but it seems to
24 me -- I don't know what their views are on that, and
25 whether they would like the Prosecutor to be present
1 when they're talking to witnesses they bring here, but
2 whatever the Court's ruling, it should be equal.
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]
4 Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Visnjic, excuse me, I did not mention
5 the detail when I gave you the floor, that having begun
6 the testimony, the parties should not have contact with
7 the witness, except in exceptional circumstances and
8 only in the presence of the other party. But it is
9 quite true that you made this application after the
10 beginning of this case, and this unequal treatment is,
11 I'm afraid, on your side; that is, you're responsible
12 for that. But at any rate, Mr. Visnjic, you have the
13 floor. Sorry.
14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very
15 much, Mr. President. Yes. We have somewhat modified
16 our application after our contact with the Prosecution,
17 and that is what I wanted to say. It only relates to
18 the period after the examination-in-chief, and in this
19 manner, we could avoid all the problems and all the
20 discussions that we've now had, and of course a
21 somewhat guess situation, which is somewhat hazardous
22 when both parties are present during the interview of
23 witnesses.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Very
25 well. So the Chamber is always glad to hear that there
1 are new exchanges between the parties. Will you -- are
2 you ready to continue, to make exchanges of views
3 between the parties, or do you want the Chamber to
4 decide?
5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes,
6 Mr. President. I believe that we should have another
7 exchange with the Prosecution. Perhaps then we would
8 be able to come up with a joint proposal.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 Thank you. So the Chamber proposes that there shall be
11 no contact with a witness after the witness has taken
12 an oath, and this equally applies to the Prosecution
13 and Defence, unless there is a reason, that is, a
14 justification, for this contact, in which case the
15 contact must be established in the presence of the
16 other party. And this is the gist of the proposal, but
17 you both may belabour further this matter. But at any
18 rate, this is the proposal. This is the conclusion
19 that is made by the Chamber.
20 However, now we shall make a 20-minute break,
21 and perhaps after that break or before the other break
22 or before the end of this session, you will communicate
23 to us your views on this matter. Now a 20-minute
24 break.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good
3 afternoon, madam. Can you hear me? First of all, you
4 will read the solemn declaration that the usher will
5 give you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
7 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
8 and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 You may be seated. Are you comfortable?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Did you
13 have an opportunity to walk around a little bit, to see
14 The Hague?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Not yet?
17 We hope that you will be able to do so later on, that
18 you will have a chance to see this beautiful town.
19 Thank you very much, madam, for coming to
20 testify before the Tribunal. You will now be answering
21 questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley. He's
22 going to treat you like a gentleman, I'm sure.
23 Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.
24 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President, Your
25 Honours.
1 WITNESS: MIRSADA MALAGIC
2 Examined by Mr. Cayley:
3 Q. Mrs. Malagic, if at any time you don't
4 understand the question that I'm asking you, please do
5 ask me to repeat it, or if you need anything
6 clarified. If you could also try and remember to take
7 a small pause after I ask you a question because you
8 and I are both being simultaneously translated into two
9 other languages.
10 A. Very well. Thank you.
11 Q. Your name is Mirsada Malagic; is that
12 correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I think you were born on the 10th of
15 January, 1959, in Potocari, near Srebrenica; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, prior to the commencement of the war in
19 1992, I think you lived in the village of Voljavica, on
20 the banks of the Drina, which is near to the town of
21 Bratunac; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In mid-1992, I think you were forced out of
24 your village by Serb forces and I think after about 15
25 days you and your family found yourself in the town of
1 Srebrenica; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I think that you stayed in Srebrenica until
4 the enclave fell in July of 1995; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in Srebrenica, am I right in saying that
7 you lived there with your husband, Salko, and your
8 three sons, Elvir, Admir, and Adnan?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I want to fast-forward in time to the 11th of
11 July, 1995, when I think you found yourself on the road
12 from Srebrenica to the UN compound at Potocari. Do you
13 recall that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who were you with at the time?
16 A. At the time, I was with my family, my husband
17 Salko, my sons, Elvir, Admir, and Adnan. We also had
18 my father-in-law with me, Omir Malagic, and my brother,
19 Sadik Salihovic, and quite a number of other people.
20 Q. Did there come a time when you became
21 separated from some of your family members?
22 A. At that moment, when we separated, not far
23 from the town of Srebrenica itself, or rather on the
24 way to Potocari, as of that moment we never saw one
25 another again.
1 Q. Who did you become separated from at that
2 time? Which members of your family?
3 A. Well, we were all together on the -- on our
4 way to Potocari, and on the road there were very many
5 people there, and when the Serb soldiers began to shell
6 the town and when they simply wanted to take revenge,
7 people didn't know where to turn, where to go. Women,
8 children, and old people thought they should head for
9 the UN base at Potocari, and then I parted company with
10 my husband, Salko Malagic, my son Elvir Malagic, my son
11 Admir Malagic, from my brother Sadik Salihovic, and my
12 father-in-law headed with me towards Potocari.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are
14 unable to continue because of this noise. I believe we
15 need to do something because the Judges can't hear.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Yes, I
17 believe something is done, Your Honour. Perhaps we
18 should wait for a moment. We could also try to avoid
19 the problem by keeping one's earphones as far from the
20 microphone as possible.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If anyone
22 has his earphones left near the microphone, will you
23 please move them away. Do the interpreters -- no, the
24 interpreters cannot work without their earphones. Are
25 we -- I believe we now can continue.
1 Mr. Cayley.
2 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mrs. Malagic, I'm sorry about that. There
4 was a small technical problem, and you probably heard a
5 whining sound in your ear, but hopefully we've solved
6 that. Now you stated that you became separated from
7 your husband Salko and your sons Elvir and Admir, and
8 also your brother. Where did Salko and Admir and your
9 brother go after you separated?
10 A. They went towards Susnjari, the village of
11 Susnjari, towards the woods.
12 Q. Did you subsequently hear what happened to
13 your husband and your son?
14 A. From relations who were also going through
15 the forest, I received only one piece of news, that
16 they were last seen on the road, on the asphalt, at
17 Konjevic Polje, that they were captured there. That
18 was the last thing I learned about them.
19 Q. Were you told by whom they were captured?
20 A. Serb soldiers. I don't know which ones.
21 Q. Now, after you separated from your husband
22 and from one son, you found yourself -- sorry. You
23 said something. You stated something. I didn't ...
24 A. Two sons. Two sons, separated from two
25 sons.
1 Q. If we include Elvir as well. But you found
2 yourself on the road between Srebrenica and Potocari, I
3 think, with your youngest son, Adnan, and with your
4 father-in-law; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, while you were on the road between
7 Srebrenica and Potocari, did you see one of your
8 relatives pass by you as you were walking towards
9 Potocari?
10 A. Not far from Potocari, about a kilometre, I'm
11 not quite sure, a lot of people overtook us and two
12 UNPROFOR trucks also arrived, caught up with us, and
13 they were crammed with people. And among them I
14 recognised my son Elvir and a friend of his from
15 Srebrenica. So we -- they could see me and I saw them,
16 because the trucks were moving very slowly so that we
17 could see one another. He just raised his hand to
18 greet me, and that was the last thing that I knew about
19 him.
20 Q. Now, at this time, Mrs. Malagic, what was
21 your physical condition?
22 A. I had all my wits about me, but before
23 departure from Srebrenica, shells had fallen among a
24 group of people and I was one of those wounded then, so
25 that my right arm hurt me, as I had been hit in the
1 right collarbone, shrapnel hit me there. But I had all
2 my wits about me.
3 Q. Now, I know you had all your wits about you
4 at the time, but I think as well as being wounded, you
5 were pregnant, you were carrying a child; is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I think subsequently, after these events,
9 you did give birth to a little girl; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what's her name?
12 A. Amela Malagic.
13 Q. Can you describe to the Judges your journey
14 along the road into Potocari before you got to the Zinc
15 Factory?
16 A. As we left Srebrenica, at the first UNPROFOR
17 base, not far from Srebrenica, I already said shells
18 began to fall. One of them wounded me and a number of
19 other people, because there was a huge crowd of people
20 and they were all amassed, all crowding the road, the
21 asphalt road at the exit from the town. Chaos ensued.
22 People didn't know what to do. They wanted to force
23 their entry into the compound, or rather that UNPROFOR
24 base in Srebrenica.
25 At the beginning -- UNPROFOR soldiers at
1 first refused to let us in, but these people, that
2 crowd, was so scared, so lost, so at sea, that they
3 practically forced their entrance into the compound, if
4 I may put it that way. And I was among all this crowd,
5 with my son Adnan, who was terrified, terrified by the
6 shells and the fact that I had been wounded, because he
7 was afraid of the sight of blood, like any child. And
8 my father-in-law was with me too.
9 And there people climbed UNPROFOR trucks,
10 believing that they would be then taken to Potocari,
11 but their soldiers did not react. They were in their
12 small houses, in their shelters, I don't know what they
13 call them. It was very hot. It was unnaturally hot,
14 and a huge crowd, very many people who were sick or who
15 were frail fainted there. After several hours in that
16 compound, UNPROFOR soldiers told us that we had to head
17 for Potocari, to their main base, and people started at
18 that, and at the gate of UNPROFOR, soldiers from an APC
19 told us not to be afraid, and we had heard NATO
20 aircraft, that they would bomb, and that we were safe
21 on that road.
22 And so we set off from Srebrenica to
23 Potocari. All along the way, that is, about four
24 kilometres to the UNPROFOR base, shells were falling on
25 both sides of the road, now on this, now on that side
1 of the road. I think those shells were more intended
2 to frighten all those children, those helpless people
3 who were completely at sea at what was going on, at
4 what was in store for them the next day, where we would
5 be -- where would we end up.
6 When we reached the first factories, before
7 the UNPROFOR compound, that is, the Zinc Factory, the
8 11th of March, Potocari, that is where we came across
9 the first UNPROFOR soldiers who said that we could not
10 enter their compound because there were enough people
11 there already and they could not take us in. And we
12 had to stay in the street, that is, within the
13 compounds of factories, the 11th of March, the Zinc
14 Factory, the Transport, the busing company Srebrenica,
15 in the nearby meadows, on the asphalt road, wherever we
16 could find some space. We just stayed there until the
17 evening.
18 Q. Just to clarify, Mrs. Malagic, it was on the
19 journey between Srebrenica and Potocari that you had
20 this last sight of your son, Elvir, on a UNPROFOR
21 truck; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How old was your son Adnan at the time of
24 these events?
25 A. Eleven.
1 Q. Now, when UNPROFOR turned you away from the
2 compound, where did you go?
3 A. As I had been wounded, I could not carry
4 anything in my right hand, and with my left I held my
5 youngest son, who was so frightened, and I was looking
6 for a place to -- I was looking for a shelter. I knew
7 those factories, I knew what they looked like because I
8 used to work there before the war, so we went into a
9 room, that is, into an office before the war, because
10 there were no windows, no doors. Everything had
11 already been ruined. But I nevertheless thought that
12 perhaps I could shield him, to keep him among the --
13 inside some walls, not outside, and he felt slightly
14 safer there.
15 Q. Do you recall the name of the building that
16 you went to?
17 A. Before the war, when we worked there, it was
18 the zinc plating factory in Potocari.
19 MR. CAYLEY: If, Mr. Usher, we could have
20 Exhibit 5/2, Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2.
21 Q. And while we're waiting for that,
22 Mrs. Malagic, can you describe how your night was
23 spent, that first night in Potocari?
24 A. Well, when we found shelter in that factory,
25 I sat down, and my son Adnan, and in front of the
1 building, or rather in front of the window, below the
2 window was my father-in-law because there was no room
3 for him in this office where we were. So he remained
4 outside, but we were in eye contact, we could see one
5 another through the window because there was no glass
6 or anything. He was sitting right beneath the window,
7 and we could talk through that window opening.
8 And all that afternoon and in the late
9 afternoon, the Serb soldiers went on shelling the
10 surroundings of Potocari, or rather the former
11 demarcation line which was formally held by UNPROFOR
12 soldiers and where the demarcation line was between the
13 demilitarised -- separating the demilitarised zone of
14 Srebrenica.
15 In the evening, I never left that office, and
16 UNPROFOR soldiers would walk up and down now and then
17 on patrols, making rounds over those people, because
18 there were very many people, women and children,
19 there.
20 Serb soldiers -- one could hear shots from
21 all sides, sniper bullets. Bullets would fall amongst
22 those people in that compound. But that night, by and
23 large, was rather quiet, and people thought that it was
24 a lull and that we were safe there, that we were being
25 protected by UNPROFOR soldiers, and that nothing would
1 happen to us. And that is how we were there until the
2 day broke. I could not sleep. I simply sat up all
3 night, together with my son and other people in that
4 office.
5 Q. Now, Mrs. Malagic, this first day in Potocari
6 was in the month of July. Do you recall the date that
7 you arrived in Potocari?
8 A. The 11th of July, 1995, Tuesday.
9 Q. How old was your father-in-law at this time?
10 A. Seventy, I think so. Seventy, yes.
11 Q. Let us now move to the next day, which is the
12 12th of July, and if you could describe to the Judges
13 what you saw on that day, as day broke on the 12th of
14 July.
15 A. Then when the day broke, the 12th of July,
16 and that was Wednesday, people -- well, we were all
17 asking around where to go next. There was no food,
18 children were hungry, and we didn't even know the
19 language. There was no way we could communicate with
20 UNPROFOR soldiers who would pass on occasion. We did
21 not have any watches, so that I can't give you the
22 exact times of the day. But it could have been around
23 9.00, perhaps half past nine, or thereabouts. From the
24 hills nearby, the houses began to burn, or rather I
25 should say those were auxiliary buildings, because I
1 was born there and I knew those places, I'd worked
2 there for years. So nearby houses were burning. Those
3 were old houses and they were not habitable. But
4 auxiliary buildings or haystacks were burning, and fire
5 was descending the hill, it was coming ever closer to
6 Potocari, to that compound where we were.
7 And those soldiers, when they approached, I
8 don't know how many, could have been 15 or 20 Serb
9 soldiers, they climbed down to the houses and that my
10 brother's house was there, and they brought horses
11 along. Whether they belonged to people who used to
12 live there, I don't know, but they tied them to a tree,
13 they fired into the air, they frolicked about, until
14 they reached people themselves and they threw out the
15 inhabitants of those houses and into the compound. And
16 the circle was growing more narrow. They reached the
17 factories, they reached the asphalt road, and then they
18 began to mix with the people, with our people. They
19 were walking around, inquiring after our men, asking
20 where were our men, where were our troops, provoked
21 us. I mean, some people teased us and some people
22 responded. They abused us verbally, said that they
23 entered Potocari so easily that finally their wish had
24 come true.
25 And then they moved in twosomes and
1 threesomes and they went around looking for our men,
2 interrogated, took away some of them. They separated
3 them -- just taking them just a few metres away from
4 the families. What they were asking them, we could not
5 hear because they were just too far. And it all lasted
6 until after noon. They were looking for children.
7 Some gave some sweets or chewing gum, and children, of
8 course, they were eager for all of that, they had not
9 seen sweets in Srebrenica after all those years, and
10 they were curious, even though I know that it was
11 simply -- the interrogation, I never trusted them, but
12 I'm sure that their intentions were just bad.
13 And it all lasted until the afternoon. A
14 woman with three children was together with me, and her
15 son walked around that compound, and two Serb soldiers
16 came to this colleague of mine and asked her where was
17 her husband, and they said that in 1993, he had been
18 evacuated with other wounded and that he was in Germany
19 at the time. And he asked us where we were planning to
20 go, where we would like to go, and she answered, like
21 everybody else, that we did not know, that we did not
22 know where they were to take us, where we were to be
23 evacuated and what was in store for us.
24 Then a Serb soldier told us that they would
25 take us to Kladanj and from then on to Tuzla and wished
1 us to leave Tuzla as quickly as possible, because he
2 said, "In no time, you will see the same scenes as
3 Tuzla as you are now seeing in Potocari." And then
4 they left. They were taking away men one by one and
5 questioning them, and they would come back frightened
6 and upset, and they didn't know what lay ahead for
7 them.
8 In the afternoon, I don't know when that was,
9 it could have been 2.00 or 3.00 or later, I set out
10 with this colleague to get some water, that is, I
11 started to a nearby house where they had some water
12 pumps, because it was very hot and we did not have any
13 water or food or anything. And there, at that gate of
14 the 11th of March Factory and the Zinc Factory, they
15 were next door, I saw a group of men, including a
16 Serb -- well, I won't call him a soldier, but he was an
17 acquaintance from peacetime. He was a policeman in
18 Srebrenica, Milisav Gavric. And judging from his face,
19 he was having a cordial chat with neighbours and
20 acquaintances, some relatives who were talking to them
21 and who used to know him from before, from peacetime.
22 And we walked past them or went to that house to get
23 some water, and on the road in front of the house, I
24 can't remember, there were UNPROFOR vehicles there and
25 an UNPROFOR soldier tied to a vehicle.
1 And that scene caused me to panic. I
2 realised then that nothing good was in store for us in
3 Potocari, that those soldiers could not protect us,
4 that perhaps they were quite powerless, in view of all
5 that was happening. So we got some water, went back to
6 the compound where I'd left my child. And so I was
7 worried and frightened and I tried to move him out
8 because there were no toilet facilities or anything.
9 So I wanted to try to take him to another house beyond
10 the Zinc Factory, where they were several Croat houses,
11 and they had outside WCs where people went there that
12 morning, when we arrived in Potocari.
13 However, as upset as I was, I reached to
14 within a couple of metres to the fence of that private
15 house, and there was a tall metal fence between the
16 Zinc Factory and that house, and one part of it had
17 been removed, where people went to those houses. And
18 when I looked there, there were two Serb soldiers, one
19 on each side, and as I looked at them, one of them just
20 waved his hand at me, indicating that I was to go
21 back. He did not say anything.
22 There were no more people around that house,
23 there were only Serb soldiers. And I got the message
24 very well, so holding my child by his hand, I turned
25 back and went to where we had been before. And that
1 evening they already began to take men away, and they
2 were taking them into that house, beyond the Zinc
3 Factory's compound. I saw very many men. Two to three
4 Serb soldiers would be taking eight, nine, ten, or
5 perhaps even more people, who would not come back.
6 There, in a group of eight men, I saw a
7 neighbour of mine, his name was Ahmo Salihovic, and he
8 never came back and all trace has been lost. To this
9 day, we know nothing about him. One of my colleagues,
10 that is, a woman who used to work with me before the
11 war, she had her son with her, and they took him away
12 twice, interrogating him. The third time, they took
13 him away and he did not come back. They also took him
14 into that same house.
15 They took away very many men, and I watched
16 them interrogating them, they were interrogating Hamed
17 Efendic from Potocari, I watched that, and very many
18 other men who vanished that night. And I am in touch
19 with their families; they have never come back and
20 nothing is known of them.
21 That is how that night arrived, perhaps the
22 worst, hardest night in my life.
23 Q. Mrs. Malagic, if I could interrupt you at
24 this point, and if you could look at the photograph
25 that is on the ELMO next to you, to your right, which
1 is a photograph that I've previously shown you, and if
2 you could show to the Judges the location that you
3 indicated to me of the Zinc Factory.
4 A. [Indicates]
5 MR. CAYLEY: For the purposes of the record,
6 the witness is pointing at the factory, which is marked
7 "Zinc Factory" on the Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2.
8 Q. Secondly, Mrs. Malagic, if you can recall
9 approximately the location of the houses to which Serb
10 soldiers were taking men on that evening of the 12th of
11 July. This is the house, which you said in your
12 evidence, you were shooed away from by two Serb
13 soldiers. Do you remember approximately where those
14 houses were, and if you could show the Judges on this
15 aerial photograph.
16 A. [Indicates]
17 MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the
18 witness is pointing to an approximate spot below the
19 Zinc Factory, two or three centimetres below the Zinc
20 Factory.
21 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Malagic. You said that this
22 son of a work colleague was taken away by Serb
23 soldiers. Do you recall his name?
24 A. Rijad Fejzic.
25 Q. How old was he at this time?
1 A. I think that he was born in 1978, and he was
2 a year older than my son Admir.
3 Q. So at this time he would have been 16 or 17
4 years of age.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Has he ever been seen since this time by his
7 family?
8 A. No, never. I'm currently living in Sarajevo
9 and I've been in touch with his mother, but she has
10 never learnt anything about him. Likewise, her husband
11 has -- did not make it through the woods, and she
12 doesn't know anything about his fate either.
13 Q. Do you remember that night approximately the
14 number of men that were taken from the Zinc Factory by
15 Bosnian Serb soldiers?
16 A. Well, I couldn't tell you the exact number,
17 but the people were being taken away throughout the
18 night. In my opinion, the Serb soldiers -- well, some
19 of the Serb soldiers were also dressed in UNPROFOR
20 uniforms. They would come with flashlights, they would
21 mix with the crowd of people, and whenever they spot a
22 male person there, they would take him away and the
23 person would not be seen after that.
24 That night the situation was terribly
25 chaotic. Every time they came to take a man away,
1 afterwards you would hear screams of the family, of the
2 wife, daughters, and from the direction of the houses
3 where the men were being taken to, I couldn't tell you
4 exactly, of course, what was happening there, but from
5 that direction we could hear screams which looked like
6 something from a horror movie. I don't know whether
7 they were using tapes or what, but it was horrible.
8 The atmosphere was terrible. And because of the
9 screams and moans, we were terrified, we couldn't
10 sleep. Nobody knew what to do.
11 Q. Now, you say that you thought at the time
12 that Serb soldiers were wearing UNPROFOR uniforms. How
13 did you come to that conclusion?
14 A. It was because of their faces. I had spent
15 three years in Srebrenica and I used to run into
16 UNPROFOR soldiers, and their faces were telling us
17 something. But those soldiers were able to speak our
18 language, and not a single UNPROFOR soldier would ever
19 use our language to communicate with us. They didn't
20 speak the local language. And then of course there
21 were the smiles on their faces whenever something
22 happened, whenever we would ask them about a particular
23 individual, they would say that they didn't know. We
24 wanted to know what would happen to the people -- to
25 the men whose families were screaming, but they would
1 simply answer that a member of their family must have
2 gone mad or something like that, and they told us not
3 to be afraid, that it was nothing, really. So this
4 lasted until Thursday morning, throughout the night.
5 Q. Before we get to Thursday morning,
6 Mrs. Malagic, do you recall anything else of
7 significance that happened that night in respect of the
8 men who were in the Zinc Factory with you?
9 A. On that night, I don't know what time but it
10 was past midnight, in the central hall of the former
11 Zinc Factory, a man was found. Apparently he had
12 hanged himself. There was a relative of his who was
13 there and he used to work in the factory before the
14 war. Probably after he had seen what was happening,
15 but those were only our assumptions, he committed
16 suicide; he hanged himself.
17 Then at that time his elder brother left, he
18 went to him with several other people, they took him
19 down. I had personally seen him hanging. And on the
20 following morning, he was buried there. They simply
21 threw some earth over his body, just outside the
22 compound, in the direction of the woods. They just
23 couldn't leave him lying there.
24 Q. Mrs. Malagic, do you recall the name of that
25 man?
1 A. Yes, I do. Hamdija Smajlovic was his name,
2 and he was from Potocari, from the Srebrenica
3 municipality.
4 Q. During that time, Mrs. Malagic, did you hear
5 of any other men hanging themselves in this similar
6 fashion?
7 A. Yes. A next-door neighbour of mine, she had
8 a house in the vicinity of the factory. They were
9 going home to get some food and she told me that on the
10 way she had seen two other persons, two of our
11 neighbours who had hanged themselves, Kiram Smajic and
12 Fehim Hasanovic. I didn't see them, but their families
13 told us what had happened.
14 Q. Let us now move to the morning of the 13th of
15 July of 1995, and if first of all you could explain to
16 the Judges the atmosphere that existed in and around
17 where you were that morning.
18 A. In the compound of the factory the atmosphere
19 was difficult. There were lots of women there with
20 their children. They were completely confused.
21 Everybody wanted to leave the area as soon as possible,
22 to reach the gate or the barricade, as it was referred
23 to, by UNPROFOR. They simply wanted to leave the
24 compound in Potocari because they believed that as soon
25 as they reached the UNPROFOR base and enter the
1 compound of the UNPROFOR base that they would be safe
2 and evacuated.
3 So there was a huge crowd of people that had
4 gathered there, and all of them wanted to leave as soon
5 as possible, but this was impossible. The area in
6 question was rather narrow, and because of the
7 atmosphere, because of the panic and the number of
8 people, lots of people fainted. But there was not
9 enough room for them to fall down. For me, it is very
10 difficult to understand how they managed to get
11 through, how many more people didn't suffocate. It was
12 chaotic. Whatever happened that morning and in
13 Potocari was beyond description. It is something that
14 you had to live through to understand.
15 I spent some time there. I took my child and
16 we left the compound of the Zinc Factory and reached
17 the road, but we couldn't proceed any further. We were
18 waiting for our turn to be let into the compound, in
19 the direction of Bratunac. This took a while, several
20 hours probably. So during this waiting period, I moved
21 away a little bit, I could no longer stand in the
22 crowd. So I sat down near the asphalt road and I
23 waited for the people to leave. I simply sat down with
24 my son and my father-in-law and we just waited for the
25 crowd to disperse a little so we could have some room
1 on the asphalt road.
2 Meanwhile their soldiers were mixing with the
3 crowd again. They brought in a tank truck. People
4 wanted to drink. They also brought in a truck full of
5 bread and they threw some bread into the crowd of
6 people who were hungry and wanted to eat. And I felt
7 so humiliated, you can imagine, like everybody else.
8 They threw food to this crowd of people, to the
9 children who were hungry, who were running towards
10 those loaves of bread that were being thrown at them.
11 They simply stood watching, the soldiers. There were
12 some individuals wearing civilian clothes amongst
13 them. They were probably reservists because they had
14 weapons, they had rifles. And one of them, an elderly
15 man, was walking along the road, mixing with the
16 people, telling them to move away from the asphalt
17 road. So he passed a few times near us. I watched
18 him; I didn't say a word. But I could judge from their
19 faces that nothing good would happen.
20 So as they were passing by a saw a number of
21 familiar faces, people I had known from before,
22 including a very good friend of ours, or at least we
23 believed he was our friend. He used to be a traffic
24 policeman in peacetime, and he used to patrol in our
25 area, our area of the municipality. He would come to
1 our house and very often have a drink or cup of
2 coffee. He would talk to a neighbour of ours. His
3 wife used to work with me in the lead and zinc mine in
4 the administration in Srebrenica which was located
5 there at the time. So this individual was also
6 standing there, dressed in his police uniform, and he
7 was simply observing the situation. He saw me and I
8 saw him, but he didn't speak to me and I didn't address
9 him either. It was as if we didn't know each other at
10 all.
11 I recognised Stanko Rakic amongst the people
12 who were there. He is also from the municipality of
13 Srebrenica, and he was working as the chief accountant
14 in the same company where I was working. But another
15 colleague of mine, Petko Milovanovic from Pobrdze,
16 Bratunac municipality, we used to travel to work in my
17 car for years before the war. He didn't speak to me
18 either. They were simply passing by. I don't know
19 what it was that they wanted to see that day. However,
20 they were there mixing with our people, wearing their
21 civilian clothes.
22 In the distance, I don't know how far it was
23 at the moment I got up to join the people who were
24 leaving, who were moving in the direction of the
25 barricade, I saw a number of Serbian soldiers who were
1 standing there together with UNPROFOR soldiers. There
2 was an APC, their APC that was parked there. It was a
3 sweltering day and lots of people lost consciousness.
4 Then they used some water hoses to refresh, supposedly,
5 the crowd of people who had gathered there.
6 Ratko Mladic addressed the people who were in
7 the vicinity, telling them not to panic, that everybody
8 would be evacuated, that there was no reason to fear,
9 and that we would all be evacuated before nightfall,
10 and that we shouldn't fear anything.
11 So these people, mostly elderly men and women
12 and children, they believed that this, indeed, would
13 happen and we thanked him, we applauded him, but I
14 personally didn't believe that this would actually be
15 so, that his words would come true.
16 So this took a while, a couple of hours, and
17 eventually I myself reached the barricade as well,
18 together with my son, and the soldiers let us through,
19 towards the UNPROFOR base in Bratunac, the former
20 battery factory in Srebrenica. There was a very long
21 column of buses that were parked here, facing the
22 direction of Bratunac, and people were let onto those
23 buses. Near the bus door there would be a group of
24 Serb soldiers with dogs who let the people in. And
25 whoever they wanted to select would be singled away,
1 taken apart.
2 So at the very barricade, before we actually
3 reached the buses, at the UNPROFOR barricade, from the
4 direction of Bratunac, a vehicle appeared. I couldn't
5 tell you about the -- anything about the type of the
6 vehicle, but it was some kind of military jeep, the one
7 that was usually used by the JNA. It was open, with no
8 roof at all, and sitting on that vehicle was a man who
9 was very familiar to me and who was surrounded by a
10 number of soldiers who had their guns pointed at the
11 crowd of people. That was Ilija Petrovic, who is from
12 the town of Spat, municipality of Srebrenica.
13 So the vehicle stopped several metres away
14 from us and he asked us about where we were going. He
15 was in high spirits, in any case, and then he started
16 cursing at us, telling us to go find our Alija, and
17 that's how he called us. And he said, "Had you
18 listened to Babo?" and we knew that he was referring to
19 Fikret Abdic, this never would have happened.
20 So he was using this foul language and
21 cursing at us, and I knew him, I knew that he was a
22 very dangerous man. I knew him from before the war.
23 And all the men that were in my vicinity, including my
24 father-in-law, knew Ilija Petrovic. My father-in-law
25 used to work at the same company, in the Zinc Factory.
1 He retired from that factory. He had had an argument
2 with him, they did not have a very good relationship,
3 and I could see from his face that this would mean the
4 end for my father-in-law. But he didn't make any
5 further comments, and at that moment, they started
6 letting us through to the buses.
7 All of the men, my father-in-law and a number
8 of my neighbours whose names I can tell you, were being
9 put aside, on the left-hand side from us. The buses
10 were on the right side, and on the left side the men
11 were taken away to a nearby house, which was some kind
12 of power substation, a transformer station before the
13 war.
14 So the men were taken to that house, and
15 outside the house we could see a pile of backpacks,
16 bags, belongings of those people who had to abandon
17 their belongings at their point. I saw my
18 father-in-law, I saw a neighbour of mine and a
19 brother-in-law, a number of people. If you want me to,
20 I can tell you their names. And we women and children,
21 we were let through.
22 So when we reached the buses, when we reached
23 the doors, the back door of this bus I was about to
24 board, my husband's aunt was about to board the bus,
25 together with her daughter, small baby, and her
1 mother-in-law. When her daughter wanted to enter the
2 bus, I was standing near the front door, a Serb soldier
3 who was standing next to us, next to the front door,
4 addressed her and he said, "Whoever let her board the
5 bus at the back door?" So she looked at him and she
6 realised he was talking to her, and he told her to come
7 close to the front door, and she thought that she would
8 be separated, that the daughter would be separated,
9 because they were taking away young women. And so she
10 approached the soldier, she didn't know what to say.
11 However, a Serb soldier told her that she should take a
12 baby to Kladanj. I was about to enter the bus, and I
13 turned around and I realised that a neighbour of ours
14 was standing there, with a baby in his hands -- holding
15 a baby in his arms. So he gave her the baby. He never
16 her very well and he started to cry, and he asked her
17 not to abandon the baby, to give the baby to any
18 relative that she might find, or a friend. So she
19 boarded the bus with that baby, she reached Kladanj,
20 she found the man's family and handed over the baby.
21 The baby's father never reappeared. He was separated
22 and taken away together with the other men. To this
23 date, we haven't heard anything of him.
24 Q. Mrs. Malagic, if I can just interrupt you
25 there, before we move to the final phase of your
1 evidence, and I just have a few clarifications. You've
2 been very clear. You said that you saw Miladin Jokic
3 in Potocari. How was he dressed?
4 A. Miladin, Miladin Jokic. He had a light blue
5 shirt on. It's a kind of uniform that was formerly
6 used by the police. This is what the police used to
7 wear before the war. It was light blue or greyish. He
8 wasn't wearing any hat. He held his hand onto -- he
9 held onto his belt. He was simply observing, not
10 saying anything. He didn't talk to us and he didn't
11 make any comment whatsoever.
12 Q. Now, the other two gentlemen that you
13 mentioned were Stanko Rakic and Petko Milovanovic.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall how they were dressed?
16 A. They were wearing civilian clothing. I
17 cannot remember exactly, I cannot give you a precise
18 description, but they were wearing civilian clothes.
19 Stanko was wearing civilian trousers, as he did most of
20 the time. I cannot tell you the exact colour, but it
21 was a civilian type of clothing.
22 Q. And these three men that you mentioned, were
23 they carrying weapons?
24 A. Stanko Rakic and Petko Milovanovic, well, we
25 couldn't see anything. They did not have rifles,
1 nothing I believe, whereas Miladin, he had some kind of
2 belt and something on it. I don't know whether it was
3 a pistol holster or something else, but he did have
4 something at his belt.
5 Q. Now, if you can recall the other Serb
6 soldiers that you saw in and around the Zinc Factory at
7 that time, and indeed while you were in the line
8 waiting for the bus, do you recall the names of any of
9 those individuals?
10 A. Yes. There were a number of Serb soldiers
11 there, including some very young people wearing
12 camouflage uniforms, which made me conclude that they
13 were perhaps regular soldiers, because they were all
14 very young lads.
15 As regards to people I knew, acquaintances of
16 mine or neighbours of mine, I saw in passing Zoran
17 Spajic, for example. He was wearing a camouflage suit
18 as well. I saw him while I was still at the compound
19 of the Zinc Factory. He was accompanied by a man whom
20 I didn't know, and at one point he said, "See, Brala,
21 how it was easy for me to liberate my village," and his
22 village could actually be seen from the compound of the
23 Zinc Factory. It was very close.
24 Q. Just again on this point, do you recall any
25 other names of your neighbours, your former Serb
1 neighbours, who you saw in camouflage uniform on that
2 day?
3 A. No, I do not.
4 Q. Now, you mentioned in your evidence -- excuse
5 me. Now, just to return for one moment to the man
6 Zoran Spajic. Do you recall from what village he was
7 from?
8 A. Yes. It is a village next to Potocari, one
9 can see it, not far away, called Studenac, municipality
10 of Srebrenica.
11 Q. Do you recall approximately how old he was at
12 the time?
13 A. That Zoran, I've known him since elementary
14 school, he could be a year or two younger than I. He
15 is a peer of one of my brothers, they went to school
16 together, so he could have been born in 1961 or
17 something. I'm not quite sure. I know he was slightly
18 younger than I, but I'm not really sure.
19 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Malagic. Now, you mentioned
20 also in your testimony that you saw an individual
21 called Ilija Petrovic from Spat. Can you describe his
22 appearance to the Judges, please?
23 A. Yes. That day -- I knew him from before, but
24 that day he was bare-headed and he stood up in that
25 vehicle, when the vehicle stopped. He was grey-haired,
1 he has a long moustache. It was a tradition with him,
2 but at that time he really had a very long moustache
3 and a beard.
4 Q. Does he have any children?
5 A. He had -- well, at least I knew that he had
6 two sons; one of them was called Sreten Petrovic, and I
7 knew him from work. He was with a supervising body in
8 the copper and zinc mine. For the first four years of
9 my work there, he was a supervisor there, and he would
10 come there when we dealt with payrolls, when we
11 prepared the salaries and everything else. So that son
12 I know very well indeed.
13 About the second son, I don't know. I was
14 told that he was with the military but I never met
15 him.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think it might
17 be an appropriate time, if you wish, to take a break.
18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,
19 Mr. Cayley, I think we ought to respect the fatigue of
20 the witness. But I think we could make it 15 minutes,
21 quarter of an hour.
22 --- Recess taken at 2.02 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 2.20 p.m.
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you
25 feeling better now, Mrs. Malagic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 You will now continue to answer questions that
4 Mr. Cayley will have for you.
5 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Mrs. Malagic, one further question on Zoran
7 Spajic. Do you recall his father's name?
8 A. I'm not quite sure, because there were two
9 brothers. It's either Radoje or Blagoje Spajic. One
10 of them is his father, but I'm not really quite sure.
11 They both work at the Saser [phoen] mine, and I knew
12 them both but I'm not really quite sure which one is
13 his father because, as I said, there were two
14 brothers.
15 Q. Prior to the break, you said that just before
16 you got on the buses a number of men were separated,
17 including your father-in-law. Could you just name, for
18 the purposes of our record, the names of all of the men
19 that you saw separated?
20 A. Yes, I can. Yes. My father-in-law was
21 separated then, Omer Malagic; then my brother-in-law,
22 Ramiz Cakar; a relative, the brother of the one that I
23 told you hanged himself in the Zinc Factory, and his
24 name was Ismet Smajlovic; then Sadik Hasanovic, also a
25 close relative; Sakib Suljagic; Salih Rizvanovic, this
1 is the man who had that baby; Behaja Salihovic, also a
2 nephew; Hamid Ibrahimovic; Alija Hasanovic; Ismet
3 Malic; Ragib Malic; Kasim Hasanovic; Rasim Hasanovic,
4 his brother; then Hajro Huseinovic.
5 I can't recall any others at the moment.
6 That is all those men who were near me when they took
7 them away to that house.
8 Q. Mrs. Malagic, that answer is fine. Now, I
9 know that all of the families in Srebrenica are in
10 contact with each other. Have any of these men ever
11 been seen since this day, to your knowledge?
12 A. Never. Never. Any one of them.
13 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
14 Exhibit 5/17.
15 Q. Now, Mrs. Malagic, I've shown you this
16 photograph previously. Do you recognise this building?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you know about
19 this building?
20 A. Well, before the war this was the building,
21 that is, the compound of an electrical distribution
22 company, and two families used to live there; they
23 worked for the company. And there it is to the left,
24 as you go to Bratunac, and buses were leaving in front
25 of that building, and to that house they were taking
1 the men who separated from them. In front of it there
2 was a big pile of bags and everything that they had to
3 leave there, and men were being taken into the house.
4 When we boarded the buses, we could not see anymore.
5 But whatever the case, they were being taken into that
6 house, or rather the yard of that house.
7 Q. Now, Mrs. Malagic, after you got on the bus
8 with your youngest son, I think you proceeded towards
9 Kladanj, and if you could very briefly tell the Judges
10 about that journey.
11 A. There was a long column of buses. We had to
12 wait until all the buses were full before we all
13 started off, and then we headed towards Bratunac.
14 There were a number of buses, army trucks, all sorts of
15 buses, buses from different companies; that is,
16 companies with their headquarters in Serbia; Raketa
17 from Titovozica, Lasta Belgrade, the 7th of July Sabac,
18 Strela from Valjevo [phoen], and many other busing
19 companies.
20 And we headed towards Bratunac. I had to
21 stand in the bus because it was filled to capacity.
22 Through Bratunac we were followed by the
23 neighbouring -- the people who lived in these buildings
24 just followed us with their eyes. Some of them lifted
25 three fingers; some of them threw stones at us. But
1 the buses did not stop there.
2 From Bratunac we headed on towards Kravica,
3 and the same thing happened on the way to Kravica. We
4 did not stop. The driver was not saying anything.
5 Nobody knew where they were taking us and nobody dared
6 asked.
7 When we passed Kravica, perhaps right at the
8 exit, I wouldn't know exactly, the bus stopped. Three
9 Serb soldiers came on. They had black bandannas and
10 they looked -- well, their eyes seemed bloodshot and
11 they looked -- they seemed -- they looked drunk or I
12 don't know, or perhaps drugged, that that is why they
13 behaved like that.
14 So they came onto the bus and they took out
15 knives very fast. They said they would slit all our
16 throats. They asked for foreign currency; they
17 evidently thought that we had lots of it. They looked
18 for weapons. Of course we did not have any because
19 most of us, after three years of chaos in Srebrenica,
20 we had nothing, let alone foreign currency or anything
21 else. But some women had some jewellery but they would
22 not accept that. They were asking for foreign
23 currency. They threatened if they found it on any of
24 us, then they would search us all and slit our throats,
25 and that our children would watch it, and then they
1 would also slay the children. So a few women who had
2 something turned it over, and then they got off our bus
3 and we went on.
4 This happened several times, at very short
5 intervals. And the third time, when they came on the
6 driver told them to get off because those women did not
7 have anything else to give them because they were not
8 the first ones to ask for them. So they left and we
9 proceeded at a place, I don't really know where that
10 was, in the direction of Sandici, from Kravica to
11 Sandici, somewhere along the way.
12 The bus was moving very slowly, they were not
13 driving fast, and all of a sudden I saw a long column
14 of men with their hands behind the nape of their neck,
15 they were tied behind their neck. They were all
16 sweaty, and some of them were naked down to the waist,
17 they did not have any T-shirts or anything. I don't
18 know why. Perhaps somebody took them off. I really
19 don't know why they took them off. I didn't
20 immediately realise who they were. The four of them
21 were carrying somebody in a blanket, must have been a
22 wounded person.
23 And I watched this column as we were passing
24 by and I recognised some of those individuals, some
25 neighbours, some relatives, and when I recognised them,
1 then I realised that those were all the guys who had
2 left through the -- who had started for the woods, that
3 they must have been captured and that they were
4 captured by the Serb soldiers who were taking them
5 somewhere. I didn't know, really, where they were
6 going to take them.
7 Among other men, I recognised the son of my
8 uncle, Ahmet Medzuseljac. There was another relative
9 of mine, Ibro Smajic, from the municipality of
10 Bratunac. Then Mujo Husic, a neighbour of mine from
11 the municipality of Bratunac; he was a policeman before
12 the war. And quite a number of guys who lived in
13 nearby buildings in Srebrenica but whose names I didn't
14 know. There were quite a number of people from
15 Cerska. I again knew them by sight, but we did not
16 really communicate so I didn't know their names.
17 They all looked exhausted, powerless. The
18 sun was burning hot. It was terribly hot. They were
19 all sweating. And Ibro Spajic, I still remember, I
20 mean, his hair was dripping. So they were walking
21 along. The bus passed by them and did not stop.
22 A little while later, but more or less I was
23 beginning to feel bad by the time, but then again I saw
24 to the right, on the right-hand side of the road, in a
25 meadow, I saw a large, large group of men who were
1 sitting down, next to the road. Next to the asphalt
2 was again the pile of their backpacks or bags, whatever
3 they had taken with them, and they were starting
4 towards the woods, in that meadow, and those bags were
5 heaped by the road.
6 A soldier, he was rather far away from the
7 bus, and I couldn't see him well, but I know that he
8 had a rifle, some kind of a weapon, and he was
9 walking -- and he was in front of those men who were
10 all sitting in this meadow. Most of them were in white
11 T-shirts, and by those backpacks and those T-shirts, I
12 realised that those were all men from Srebrenica
13 because nobody else had anything to wear. Those were
14 the only clothes that we got through humanitarian
15 relief, those white T-shirts.
16 I realised then that those were all men who
17 had been captured, who were unable to cross through the
18 Serb territory to reach our territory, or rather
19 Tuzla.
20 Q. Mrs. Malagic, if I could interrupt you at
21 this point, we're finishing for the day.
22 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I only have a few
23 more questions to ask the witness, but you may feel
24 that it's an appropriate time to actually end for the
25 day.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And how
2 long will that take, more or less?
3 MR. CAYLEY: We're almost near the end of the
4 narrative of her account, and I believe about ten
5 minutes it would take to finish her evidence today.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. It
7 would be preferable then to adjourn for the day, I
8 think.
9 Mrs. Malagic, I'm really sorry that we have
10 to interrupt your narrative, but we shall be resuming
11 tomorrow. I only hope that the night you will have to
12 spend here will not be like the ones that you
13 experienced before. You are now under the protection
14 of the Tribunal. So you will be back tomorrow at half
15 past nine. Thank you very much.
16 Thank you, Mr. Cayley.
17 Until tomorrow, then, 9.30.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
19 2.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
20 the 4th day of April, 2000, at
21 9.30 a.m.
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