Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3428

1 Thursday, 25 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good

7 morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, the

8 technical booth, the interpreters, the legal officers,

9 the court reporters; good morning to the Prosecution;

10 good morning to the Defence; good morning to General

11 Krstic; good morning, Witness. We have a witness in

12 the courtroom already.

13 Before beginning I should like to inform you

14 that Judge Fouad Riad is unable to be with us today and

15 we are therefore going to sit in accordance with

16 Article 15 bis, because there are urgent reasons of

17 ill-health that are keeping him away and we are going

18 to continue the hearings.

19 Witness, can you hear me?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So you're

22 going to read the solemn declaration which the usher is

23 going to hand to you, please.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

25 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

Page 3429

1 and nothing but the truth.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be

5 seated, madam. Are you feeling comfortable? You are

6 now going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Cayley,

7 whom you see to your right.

8 Mr. Cayley, the witness is yours. Good

9 morning.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,

11 Judge Wald, my learned friends for the Defence.

12 Examined by Mr. Cayley:

13 Q. Witness, I'm going to call you "Witness T"

14 during your evidence in order to protect your

15 identity. But first of all could you please look at

16 the name written on the piece of paper. Don't read it

17 out, just confirm that that is your name.

18 A. It is.

19 Q. Witness, please relax as best you can. I

20 know it's not easy speaking about these events, and I

21 only have a few questions for you, as you know. Just a

22 few preliminary questions.

23 You're of Bosnian nationality; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3430

1 Q. You are a Muslim by faith.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. CAYLEY: I didn't -- oh, there is a

4 response on the transcript.

5 Q. In July of 1995 I think you were living in a

6 village that was inside the Srebrenica enclave; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. After the enclave fell in July of 1995, I

10 think you went to the woods with your children and with

11 other women from the village; is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, I know you spent a number of nights in

14 the woods and I'm not going to ask you about that, but

15 I think I'm right in saying that you arrived in

16 Potocari on the 11th of July of 1995; is that right?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. When you arrived in Potocari, can you tell

19 the Judges where you went.

20 A. I was in front of a factory. We got there

21 and we spent the night there. On the 11th, in the

22 evening, UNPROFOR was around us and whoever entered,

23 they said they couldn't get out again, so it was safer

24 to stay there, they said.

25 During the night and the next night in the

Page 3431

1 evening, the 12th in the evening, the Serbs came and in

2 the evening they took people away and killed them,

3 slaughtered, and did all kinds of things.

4 Q. If you can just wait there for one moment.

5 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/7. Mr. Usher, I have a copy.

7 You can borrow mine. If you could put it in front of

8 the witness and then put it on the ELMO.

9 THE USHER: Okay.


11 Q. Witness, do you recognise the building in

12 this photograph?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. Can you tell the Judges what this building

15 is?

16 A. This one here.

17 Q. Is this the building where you stayed outside

18 when you arrived in Potocari?

19 A. It is.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Could it be placed on the ELMO,

21 please. Would you move it down, please, and if the

22 lens could be withdrawn so that we can see the whole

23 photograph. That's fine.

24 Let the record show that the witness has

25 identified Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/7 as the factory

Page 3432

1 building where she and her children remained outside

2 after she arrived in Potocari.

3 Mr. Usher, that's fine. You can leave that

4 on the ELMO.

5 Q. Now, Witness, I want you to cast your mind

6 back to the night of the 12th of July when you and your

7 children were outside this factory building. I think

8 there was a woman nearby to you with three sons.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I want you to tell the Judges what you saw

11 take place on that night.

12 A. First, two elderly -- there were two older

13 boys, they were resisting, and then in the end they

14 took all three of them away.

15 Q. Now, you say that there were two older boys,

16 they were resisting, and in the end they took all three

17 away. Who took the three boys away; do you recall?

18 A. Serbs.

19 Q. How were these Serbs dressed?

20 A. They had on military uniforms.

21 Q. If you want to take a break at any time, just

22 indicate to the President, if you want to just take a

23 five-minute break, and I'm sure we can do that. Do you

24 want to continue?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3433

1 Q. How old were these three boys, if you can

2 remember?

3 A. I think the oldest was between 18 and 20.

4 The next one, between 10 and 15. Judging by their

5 height, that is my judgement. And the young one was

6 between five and seven.

7 Q. Where did these Serbs in military uniform

8 take these three boys?

9 A. Behind the factory, around that second corner

10 there [indicates], and he killed them there.

11 Q. Did you see them being killed behind the

12 factory building that's on the screen at the moment?

13 A. I didn't see them being killed, but I saw

14 them later. I saw them dead. I didn't see them when

15 they were actually being killed.

16 Q. What time had passed between the Serb

17 soldiers taking them away and you seeing them behind

18 the building; how much time passed?

19 A. About an hour, I think. She fainted, and she

20 was looking for her sons. We went round to see them,

21 and then she fainted.

22 Q. Who fainted?

23 A. Their mother.

24 Q. Could you describe -- I know this is very

25 difficult, and we'll move through it as quickly as we

Page 3434

1 can. Can you describe to the Judges, when you saw the

2 three bodies behind the factory, what you saw?

3 A. All three were one next to another. They

4 were covered up to their waists, and all three had

5 their throats slit.

6 Q. After you had seen these three bodies, what

7 did you do next?

8 A. What did I do? Nothing. First, when they

9 took those three children, she fainted. When she came

10 to, she wanted to know where they were. She first

11 asked about the youngest one. Then we told her that

12 they had taken all three. We went to look. Then she

13 fainted again. We dragged her back to where she was

14 before, and that's how it was. When again she came to,

15 we gave her some pills to take, and that's how it was.

16 Later, they came again. They took another

17 two, but they were older people. I don't know exactly

18 how old they were. They weren't too old or too young,

19 maybe about 30 or 35. They took them too, and they

20 slaughtered the two of them too right there.

21 Q. Witness, if you could just wait a moment.

22 You said they came again and took two others. Were

23 these two others another two Muslim men?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And who took them away?

Page 3435

1 A. The same two. After having killed the three

2 children, the same two came to take them away. They

3 took two away, and one of them never returned.

4 Q. And "the same two," you're referring to the

5 two Serb soldiers who had originally come to take the

6 children away?

7 A. Yes. They came back for these two older men,

8 as I said.

9 Q. After those older men had been taken away,

10 did you see them again?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell the Judges what you saw?

13 A. They were only on the other side. They were

14 also killed, and both of them had also had their

15 throats slit in the same way as the three children,

16 only they were turned around in the opposite direction.

17 Q. Whereabouts did you see those two other

18 bodies?

19 A. Again, behind this factory where these three

20 were, these three children, and then next to them were

21 these two men.

22 Q. Do you recall when you saw those other two

23 bodies?

24 A. I don't know. I think it was about two hours

25 later, after we had seen these three, because we had to

Page 3436

1 carry the woman back. They took these other two while

2 the woman was unconscious. When the woman came to,

3 then there were two other women whom I saw for the

4 first time, and they went to see, and they saw the same

5 thing and a lot of blood.

6 Q. Now, I think on the 13th of July, I'm correct

7 in saying that you and your children left Potocari by

8 bus, and you were taken eventually to the free

9 territory in Tuzla; is that right?

10 A. Yes. When I had seen all that, I picked up

11 my children and headed to the buses. And about 10 past

12 2.00, I think -- this was the second set of buses, and

13 we got on and headed towards Kladanj.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further

15 questions for the witness, and I can now offer her for

16 cross-examination. Thank you.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

18 very much, Mr. Cayley.

19 Mr. Petrusic, you have the witness for

20 cross-examination, if you wish.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,

22 Your Honours, my learned friends of the Prosecution.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

24 Q. Good morning, madam. I shall really try to

25 be very brief.

Page 3437

1 Madam, I wouldn't like to go through the

2 statement that you gave to the Prosecution in August

3 1995, but I would have a question for you, and that

4 is: Did you see, in Potocari, the separation of men

5 from women?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. On that occasion when this separation was

8 carried out, did you notice any police dogs?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Madam T, after these events which you have

11 described to Mr. Cayley, did you see members of


13 A. I don't know. I know I saw some people; I

14 think they were UNPROFOR. They may have been Serbs

15 dressed in their clothing. But I did see blue uniforms

16 on them.

17 Q. This group that you were in and which was

18 aware of these events, or perhaps you yourself, did you

19 inform UNPROFOR members of what you had seen?

20 A. We did say these things but they said it

21 wasn't true. But everything was visible during the

22 night of the 12th. There were so many atrocities.

23 Q. Thank you, madam. During this second arrival

24 of the two soldiers, are you sure that they took away

25 two men?

Page 3438

1 A. Yes, I saw them.

2 Q. Madam, in your statement to the Prosecution

3 you said you saw a couple, a husband and wife.

4 A. No, those were two men. But later they

5 separated the husband from a wife, because they had two

6 children. UNPROFOR said that nobody else could come

7 and they took him away, and there was some corn down

8 there and they took them down there.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

10 I would, after all, like to show the witness her

11 statement, and I would end my cross-examination with

12 that.

13 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I could assist

14 my learned friend. I think it might be an idea in the

15 case of this witness to actually highlight, if you

16 haven't done so already, if you could put a highlighter

17 across the section so that she can go straight to it.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes,

20 Mr. Petrusic, that is a good suggestion, but I think it

21 is a method that you have already adopted.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

23 Honour, we have already done that for the convenience

24 of the Chamber, and of course the witness. So could

25 the usher please give the witness her previous

Page 3439

1 statement, the B/C/S version, please.

2 Q. Madam T, is that your statement?

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

4 Mr. Petrusic, perhaps we need to wait for the number of

5 the exhibit so that we can identify it.

6 Madam Registrar, can you give us a number for

7 this exhibit?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Just one second, please.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of

10 assistance, it is D20, Exhibit D20.

11 THE REGISTRAR: D20, yes.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So it is

13 D20. Please continue, Mr. Petrusic.

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Madam T, is that your statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On page 3 of that statement, it is

18 highlighted with a marker, you said, "Later that

19 evening the same three soldiers returned who had taken

20 these three boys away. They took away a man and a

21 woman."

22 A. No, they took away two men.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

24 that ends my cross-examination.

25 Madam T, thank you.

Page 3440

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

2 very much, Mr. Petrusic.

3 Mr. Cayley, do you have any additional

4 re-examination?

5 MR. CAYLEY: No, Mr. President, I don't have

6 any further questions for the witness. Thank you.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

8 very much, Mr. Cayley.

9 Judge Wald, have you any questions?

10 JUDGE WALD: Just two.

11 Questioned by the Court:

12 JUDGE WALD: Madam T, your children were with

13 you in Potocari at the time that your neighbour's

14 children were taken away by the Serb soldiers; is that

15 right? You had your children with you around the

16 factory.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE WALD: Can you just tell us, were your

19 children boys or girls, and about what ages were they,

20 your own children?

21 A. One was born in 1992, the other in 1994.

22 JUDGE WALD: So they were very young at the

23 time.

24 A. Yes. Yes.

25 JUDGE WALD: Was there any reason that you

Page 3441

1 could tell why they took your neighbour's children away

2 but they didn't approach your children?

3 A. She wasn't my neighbour. I didn't even know

4 that woman; I saw her for the first time there.

5 JUDGE WALD: But the woman who was close by

6 that you saw, you couldn't tell why they took her

7 children but they left your children alone.

8 A. I don't know. I had two little girls, and

9 those were boys. Maybe that was the reason.

10 JUDGE WALD: I see. My only other question

11 is: You told us about the sad story of seeing the

12 boys' bodies and then later on at least one of the --

13 if I remember correctly, did you see the bodies of the

14 two men that were taken out later? Is that right? Did

15 you see their bodies too, of the men that were taken

16 out later than the three boys?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

19 A. I saw them later.

20 JUDGE WALD: My only question is: Were those

21 the only bodies you saw that night, the three boys and

22 the two men, or were there other bodies around in the

23 area?

24 A. There were but I didn't dare look. I went to

25 the buses in the morning and I don't know what happened

Page 3442

1 afterwards. There were all sorts of things.

2 JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you very

3 much.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

5 very much, Judge Wald.

6 Witness T, I have only one question. The

7 Prosecutor has asked questions, the Defence has asked

8 questions, and my colleague Judge Wald. Is there

9 anything else that you would like to say and that

10 hasn't been asked of you? You may say it now.

11 A. I have nothing to say. Who was there could

12 have seen it all. I don't know. Only when I reached

13 Tuzla, I found my mother, and she told me that --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Take your

15 time, Witness T. We have every understanding for your

16 suffering.

17 A. My mother told me --

18 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't hear

19 that. The interpreter apologises. We think the

20 witness said that her father had been killed.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam, do

22 you wish to continue or is that all you wanted to say?

23 We feel very much for you, as I have already said.

24 A. I would like to finish there.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Take your

Page 3443

1 time, please, Witness T. What did your mother tell

2 you? You told us that you wanted to end there with

3 what your mother told you.

4 A. That they had killed my father at Potocari a

5 day later. That's what my mother said.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So,

7 Witness, we do not wish to make you suffer any

8 further. I think that you were very brave to come here

9 and to tell us everything that you have told us, and

10 therefore that ends your testimony here.

11 We wish you a safe journey to your place of

12 residence and that you will be able to recover, because

13 you have children who need you.

14 Please don't move, because of protective

15 measures, so that we are going to have a break, a

16 20-minute break, after which the hearing will be

17 resumed.

18 So thank you very much, Witness T, for

19 coming.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 --- Break taken at 10.30 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation]

25 Mr. Harmon.

Page 3444

1 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President.

2 Good morning, Judge Wald. Good morning, colleagues.

3 Your Honours, Mr. Ruez, who has testified

4 previously in this session, in this trial, will be

5 testifying essentially about two areas.

6 First, I intend to ask him a number of

7 questions to connect exhibits that have been introduced

8 previously by witnesses, to connect them to names and

9 to locations. But the principal part of Mr. Ruez'

10 testimony will be to develop for the Trial Chamber the

11 evidence that relates to the extensive efforts by the

12 VRS to remove bodies from primary grave sites and

13 conceal them in secondary grave sites.

14 So let me then, with that introduction to

15 Your Honours -- again, good morning, Mr. Ruez.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

17 excuse me for interrupting you. I must remind the

18 witness that he's under oath, or there may be some

19 doubt as to whether it is necessary to take the solemn

20 declaration or not. But to avoid all doubt, Mr. Usher,

21 perhaps it is simpler for Mr. Ruez to take the oath

22 once again.

23 THE WITNESS: My name is Jean-Rene Ruez. I

24 solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

25 truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 3445

1 Due to the origin of the material that we are

2 going to exhibit today, I will testify in the English

3 language.


5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you

6 very much, Mr. Ruez. Now things are quite clear as

7 regards the solemn declaration, and you're now going to

8 answer questions put to you by Mr. Harmon.

9 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

10 Q. Even though you have testified previously in

11 this proceeding, there are people in the gallery who

12 don't know who you are and what you do. So could you

13 briefly identify what you do and how long you've been

14 employed by the Office of the Prosecutor?

15 A. My name is Jean-Rene Ruez. I am the

16 investigation team leader for the Srebrenica

17 investigation. I joined the Tribunal in April 1995,

18 and I am concerned with the Srebrenica case since 20th

19 July 1995.

20 Q. Thank you very much. Let me begin by showing

21 you Prosecutor's Exhibit 28, and I'm going to ask you

22 to identify a number of individuals in Prosecutor's

23 Exhibit 28.

24 Let me begin, first of all, by showing you

25 Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/7. Now, that's been placed on

Page 3446

1 the ELMO. Mr. Ruez, have you met this individual?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Can you identify him for the Judges, please?

4 A. His name is Colonel Cedo Blagojevic.

5 Q. And in July of 1995, what was his position in

6 the Drina Corps?

7 A. Colonel Blagojevic was the commander of the

8 1st Light Infantry Brigade.

9 Q. Now let me show you the next Prosecutor's

10 exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/9.

11 Returning briefly to the previous exhibit,

12 Mr. Ruez, you testified that Mr. Blagojevic was a

13 colonel in the 1st Light Infantry Brigade. Was that in

14 the Bratunac Brigade?

15 A. Bratunac Brigade commander.

16 Q. Thank you. Now let's go to the next exhibit,

17 please, the one that's on the ELMO. Have you met this

18 individual?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Who is he?

21 A. He is -- he was at the time a major. His

22 name is Dragan Obrenovic. He was the Chief of Staff of

23 the 1st Zvornik Brigade. He's currently the commander

24 of the Zvornik Brigade.

25 Q. That was on the 11th of July he held that

Page 3447

1 position?

2 A. On 11 of July, 1995, he was the deputy

3 commander of the Zvornik Brigade.

4 Q. Now can we turn to 28/11. Now, this

5 individual, Mr. Ruez, have you met this individual?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. What is his name?

8 A. His name is Pavle Golic. He was a Major in

9 July 1995. He was a member of the Intelligence Section

10 at the Drina Corps headquarters.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. HARMON: Now, let's turn, Mr. Usher, to

13 28/18, please.

14 Q. Mr. Ruez, have you met this individual?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. What is his name?

17 A. His name is Svetozar Andric. He was a

18 Lieutenant Colonel at the time of the events in July

19 1995. He was the commander of the 1st Bihac

20 Sekovici -- he was the brigade commander of the

21 Sekovici Brigade.

22 MR. HARMON: All right. Mr. Usher, for the

23 time being I'm finished with the exhibits in

24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 28.

25 Q. I'd like to show you two new exhibits that

Page 3448

1 the Prosecutor will be introducing.

2 MR. HARMON: If I can have given to the usher

3 and if they can be placed on the ELMO Prosecutor's

4 Exhibit 185 and 186. Now, could you place Prosecutor's

5 Exhibit 185 on the ELMO, please, and if we could have

6 that properly shown that would be fine. Thank you very

7 much.

8 Now, this, Your Honours, is a still image

9 taken from a film that has been previously introduced

10 into evidence.

11 Q. Mr. Ruez, who is the man in the foreground in

12 this particular picture?

13 A. This man is identified as being Ljubo,

14 probably Ljubisa, family name Borovcanin. He is the

15 deputy commander of the special police force based in

16 Janja in July 1995.

17 Q. On the far right you can see an image of a

18 man, at least half of a man's face. Is that Colonel

19 Kingori from the Kenyan forces?

20 A. Yes. He was a Major at the time of the

21 events and he was present in Potocari, indeed.

22 Q. Let me show you another still image that has

23 been taken from another film that has been introduced

24 previously, Prosecutor's Exhibit 186. Can you identify

25 the man standing to the right of the man in the blue

Page 3449

1 helmet?

2 A. The man standing on the right is, again,

3 Ljubo Borovcanin.

4 Q. What was his position on the 11th of July,

5 1995, if you know?

6 A. He was the deputy commander of the special

7 police based in Janja.

8 MR. HARMON: I have two new exhibits I'd like

9 displayed on the ELMO; one is Prosecutor's Exhibit --

10 I'm sorry, they are old exhibits -- Prosecutor's

11 Exhibits 71 and 72.

12 For reference for Your Honours, this was an

13 individual who was identified during the testimony of

14 Lieutenant van Duijn.

15 Q. Mr. Ruez, let me put Prosecutor's Exhibit 71,

16 first of all, on the ELMO. Referring to the man on the

17 left-hand side of this image, can you identify him,

18 please.

19 A. Yes. The man on the left is Mendeljejev

20 Dzuric. He is a company commander from the special

21 police force, based in Janja.

22 Q. Do you know who his superior was?

23 A. His superior was Ljubo Borovcanin, who was

24 the deputy commander of that same special police force

25 in Janja.

Page 3450

1 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you could place

2 the next exhibit on the ELMO, please, Prosecutor's

3 Exhibit 72.

4 Q. Is that the same individual that you

5 previously identified in Prosecutor's 71?

6 A. Yes. This is again Mendeljejev Dzuric, whose

7 rank at the time is unknown to us at this moment.

8 MR. HARMON: I've concluded, Mr. Usher, with

9 those exhibits.

10 Q. Now I'd like to show you, Mr. Ruez, three

11 exhibits that have been previously entered into

12 evidence, Prosecutor's Exhibits 170, 171, and 172.

13 MR. HARMON: Again, for point of reference to

14 Your Honours, these three exhibits are exhibits that

15 were introduced through Mr. Erdemovic. Mr. Erdemovic

16 identified a location where he and his colleagues went

17 on the 16th of July. From Vlasenica they arrived at a

18 particular location; these are the images of that

19 particular location. From that location they were

20 taken to the Branjevo Military Farm.

21 There should be three images, 170, 171, and

22 172. Why don't we start, Mr. Usher, with Prosecutor's

23 Exhibit 170.

24 Q. Mr. Ruez, are you familiar with this

25 photograph?

Page 3451

1 A. Yes. This is a photograph which I took on

2 the 7th of June, 1996. The buildings which can be seen

3 on this photograph are the headquarters and the

4 barracks of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, based in Zvornik.

5 Q. Was the Zvornik Brigade located at those

6 structures on the 16th of July, 1995?

7 A. Yes, they were located at this location.

8 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, could you turn

9 to the next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 171, and

10 place that on the ELMO, please.

11 Q. Is that an image of the same location but

12 from a different perspective, Mr. Ruez?

13 A. Yes, it is. This is the entrance gate of the

14 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade. Just at the right of

15 this picture is the guardhouse of the compound where

16 the Lieutenant Colonel who met Drazen Erdemovic's team

17 before going to the Branjevo Farm, he met the team. He

18 was coming out from this guardhouse.

19 Q. Let's turn to the last image, Prosecutor's

20 Exhibit 172, and ask you just briefly to identify that

21 as well.

22 A. This is another view of the compound of the

23 1st Zvornik Brigade, the headquarters of the 1st

24 Zvornik Brigade.

25 Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez.

Page 3452

1 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I've finished with

2 those exhibits.

3 Q. Let me now show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 160,

4 and I'm going to ask you about the 5th Engineering

5 Unit. You should have a copy, Mr. Ruez, of

6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 160, and we're going to be

7 referring to eight exhibits, 160/1 through 160/8.

8 First of all, let me ask you in respect of

9 these exhibits, if you would have the map on the ELMO,

10 could you orient the Judges to the location where the

11 Drina Corps 5th Engineering Battalion was located.

12 A. The location of the 5th Engineering Battalion

13 is very close to the so-called intersection of

14 Konjevici, where the red circle is. It is

15 approximately 800 metres -- or 600 metres away from the

16 intersection. The road on the right is the road

17 leading towards Bratunac town.

18 Q. All right. Would you take the next exhibit,

19 please, Mr. Ruez, 160/1, and place that on the ELMO.

20 I'm going to interrupt you once or twice in

21 your testimony about this location, but I'd like you

22 now to use those exhibits, starting with 160/1 through

23 160/8, and slowly identify the significance of each of

24 these images, and tell the Judges about each of these

25 exhibits, please.

Page 3453

1 A. This is an aerial photograph taken the 27th

2 of July, 1995 which shows the large area around the

3 compound of the 5th Engineering. The HQ is in the

4 middle of the photograph. The surroundings are

5 buildings, and this is the road going from Bratunac,

6 which is at the right of the photograph, towards the

7 intersection of Konjevici, which is just out of the

8 frame of the picture on the left.

9 Q. Indicating the road that starts at the upper

10 right-hand side of the image, and at approximately a

11 45-degree angle descends to the left lower portion; is

12 that correct?

13 A. That is correct. This picture is broken into

14 three frames, frame A, frame B, and frame C. I'm going

15 to show now additional pictures from these frames.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

17 excuse me. Can I interrupt to ask the technical booth

18 to give us an overall view of all these photographs,

19 please, together. I can't see the top of the

20 photograph, please. I should like to see the whole

21 thing, please. Put the photograph under the ELMO, and

22 whenever one puts a document on the ELMO I would like

23 us to be able to see the whole photograph. Does the

24 technical booth understand what I'm saying? Could you

25 focus it so that the whole photograph can be seen?

Page 3454

1 MR. HARMON: This photograph, Mr. President,

2 may be too large to -- I think it's an A3-size

3 photograph. I'm not sure if this ELMO can show all of

4 the picture in one shot.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

6 Thank you.

7 THE WITNESS: That way it could work but it's

8 not very legible.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please

10 continue, Mr. Harmon. We've seen the whole photograph

11 now and you may continue. I apologise for interrupting

12 you.

13 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Continue, please, Mr. Ruez. Why don't you

15 take the next image and tell Their Honours what 160/2

16 is. Did you take this image?

17 A. The photograph that I took on the 8th April

18 1996, this is a photograph of the headquarters of the

19 5th Engineer Unit. It is in a former school. This is

20 the building in the centre of the photograph, and to

21 the left of the photograph is the guardhouse. This

22 guardhouse is the guardhouse which was identified by

23 (redacted). He was taken to that

24 location.

25 Q. All right. Then continue, please, Mr. Ruez.

Page 3455

1 A. The Exhibit 160/3 is a blowup of frame A of

2 the larger photograph that was the Exhibit 161.

3 Q. That has to be better oriented on the ELMO,

4 Mr. Ruez, and if you can get the whole image in.

5 A. This photograph was taken on the 5th of July,

6 1995. The markings in white are the original markings

7 we received on this photograph from the State

8 Department, the U.S. State Department. The markings in

9 yellow are additional markings that we have added on

10 these photographs according to the knowledge we have of

11 what can be seen on it. These vehicles that can be

12 seen on this photograph, 5 July 1995, are mobile bridge

13 trucks.

14 The photograph Exhibit 160/4 shows these

15 bridge trucks still present there on the 8th April

16 1996. It is to enable you to compare ground picture

17 with aerial imagery in order to have a better view of

18 what the objects on the photographs represent. So on

19 the 5th July 1995, only these mobile bridge trucks were

20 present in the compound.

21 The next exhibit, which is 160/5, is a

22 photograph from the same area taken 27 July 1995, and

23 one can observe that in addition to the mobile bridge

24 trucks, a front loader has arrived at the 5th Engineer

25 Unit.

Page 3456

1 Q. When you say "165," you mean "160/5," for the

2 record?

3 A. Correct.

4 Exhibit 160/6 is a blowup of frame B of the

5 initial exhibit. The first photograph is dated July 5,

6 and one can see on the photograph a tractor and a

7 trailer.

8 The Exhibit 160/7 shows the same area on the

9 27th of July, 1995. In addition to the trailer and the

10 tractor still present on the 27th of July, 1995, two

11 trucks arrived and one additional front loader.

12 Exhibit 160/8 is a blowup of frame C of the

13 Exhibit 160/1. It just shows what was present there on

14 the 5th of July, 1995.

15 The next photograph is 160/9. No equipment

16 is to be seen on this photograph, no additional

17 equipment, besides the vehicle which was already

18 present there on 5 July, but there was some additional

19 activity in this area due to traces on the ground in

20 this place.

21 Q. When you say "traces," what do you mean?

22 A. Vehicle traces.

23 Q. Can you point those out to the Judges,

24 please?

25 A. In the centre of the picture, in this area

Page 3457

1 here [indicates].

2 Q. And this particular engineering company, is

3 this part of the Drina Corps?

4 A. It is a Drina Corps unit, absolutely.

5 Q. All right. I've concluded then, Mr. Ruez,

6 with those particular exhibits about the Engineering

7 Unit, and if we could now turn to two exhibits that

8 have been previously entered in through Captain

9 Egberg's testimony, Prosecutor's Exhibit 87 and 88.

10 Now, Mr. Ruez, the Dutch soldier who

11 testified before the Tribunal, Captain Egberg,

12 testified that he was at this particular location near

13 Nova Kasaba.

14 First of all, can you identify in this aerial

15 image the location of the 65th Protection Regiment?

16 A. Yes. The 65th Protection Regiment was

17 billeting in a school just on the outskirts of the

18 hamlet of Nova Kasaba, and the school building, which

19 is the headquarters of the 65th Protection Regiment in

20 July 1995, is the building at the bottom of this

21 picture. In front of it one can see that three buses

22 are present 13 July 1995 at 1400 hours, and the path

23 that exits the compound is the straight line going

24 toward the road which is on the upper right corner of

25 the photograph.

Page 3458

1 Q. In which direction is Nova Kasaba when you're

2 on the road in the upper right-hand corner?

3 A. Nova Kasaba is in the direction of the road

4 which exits the photo at the top of the picture.

5 Q. Now, can we take a look at the next exhibit,

6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 87 -- 88, I'm sorry.

7 Captain Egberg identified this particular

8 location. What is this location?

9 A. This is the same school that shall be seen on

10 the aerial imagery. It is the compound of the 65th

11 Protection Regiment. It's a photograph which was taken

12 in April 1996.

13 Q. Did you take this photograph?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

16 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I've finished with

17 that.

18 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, I'm going to show you a video

19 film. It will be brief. It will be -- it's Exhibit

20 66, and it is an interview with General Krstic. I'm

21 going to ask you some questions after you've had an

22 opportunity to look at the film.

23 MR. HARMON: So if we could dim the lights,

24 please, and if we could show Prosecutor's Exhibit 66.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 3459


2 Q. Mr. Ruez, do you know when this film was

3 shown publicly and where it was shown?

4 A. This film was broadcasted on Serbian news,

5 which is VRS Television, the 13th of July, 1995.

6 Q. Now, we've had another witness in this court

7 look at this film, Colonel Kingori, and Colonel Kingori

8 concluded that that film was taken in Potocari. Do you

9 agree with Colonel Kingori's conclusion?

10 A. Yes, I do agree with Major Kingori's

11 conclusions.

12 Q. How many times, approximately, have you been

13 to Potocari?

14 A. I did not count them, but I would say

15 probably ten times.

16 Q. I would like you to use four exhibits, and

17 show the Court, if you would, why you agree with

18 Colonel Kingori.

19 MR. HARMON: And if we could have

20 Prosecutor's Exhibits 5/4, 5/19 [realtime transcript

21 read in error "5/15"], 5/5. We need them in an

22 ensemble so we can go through this testimony fairly

23 quickly. You can place 5/4 on the ELMO.

24 We won't start your testimony yet, Mr. Ruez.

25 We'll wait until we have the exhibits before us.

Page 3460

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

2 Mr. Prosecutor. You mentioned "5/19" or did you say

3 "5/15"?

4 MR. HARMON: I said, "5/5, 5/19, 5/4," and

5 then we have a new exhibit, which is Prosecutor's

6 Exhibit 184.

7 MR. FOURMY: Because the transcript says

8 "5/15".

9 MR. HARMON: And there's a new exhibit, 184.

10 If that 184 could be distributed, then I'll start the

11 examination of Mr. Ruez.

12 Q. Mr. Ruez, if you would identify, by number,

13 the exhibits when you testify about them. I would like

14 you to take the Chamber through these exhibits, and

15 tell them why this last interview of General Krstic was

16 taken in Potocari, why you have reached that

17 conclusion.

18 A. This is a photograph dated 13 July 1995,

19 taken at 1400 hours. It shows the situation in

20 Potocari at that time.

21 Q. The exhibit number on that, please?

22 A. The exhibit number of this one is 5/4.

23 In the centre of the picture, one can see in

24 the circle a crowd of people. These are people waiting

25 to board the buses and have to go through the

Page 3461

1 separation line before doing so. The separation line

2 is here [indicates], more or less in the middle of the

3 photograph.

4 On the film where General Krstic can be seen

5 giving his interview, at one point a blue building is

6 visible in the frame. The blue building is the

7 building which is marked on the photograph, with the

8 arrow, "Blue Building." The approximate location of

9 the interview was just before reaching the separation

10 line, when coming from Bratunac, which is in the

11 direction of the bottom of this photograph. The area

12 where the interview took place is approximately here

13 [indicates] on this photograph.

14 Q. Which is below the oval and to the right of

15 the word that says "Trucks"?

16 A. This is correct.

17 MR. HARMON: May we have the next exhibit,

18 please, 5/19.

19 A. This is another view of the area seen from

20 the west. In the centre, a bit to the right, is the

21 so-called blue building [indicates]. Just behind this

22 blue building is the asphalt road that goes right off

23 the picture towards Srebrenica town [indicates]. Just

24 outside the frame of this photograph is the area where

25 the separation line was [indicates]. And behind the

Page 3462

1 house which is at the right of the photograph centre

2 picture is the approximate area where the interview was

3 taken, due to the angle where the building can be seen,

4 the blue building.

5 MR. HARMON: If we could now turn to

6 Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/5. Place that on the ELMO,

7 Mr. Usher.

8 A. This is again another view from Potocari, but

9 seen from the east. The blue building on this

10 photograph is now on the top right of the photo

11 [indicates]. It is not blue on this digital

12 photograph. The building is here [indicates].

13 Q. You're indicating, for the record, the top

14 right-hand corner?

15 A. Yes, just before the so-called "white house,"

16 which was the detention centre for the men who were

17 separated. On the left of this blue building, one can

18 see a big group of trees. Just behind these trees is

19 the approximate area where the interview took place.

20 This interview, which was broadcast on 13 July, was in

21 fact given 12 July, 12 July, probably around noon or

22 very early -- around noon, probably.

23 Q. Could you take a look at the last image,

24 which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 184, and explain this

25 image to the Judges.

Page 3463

1 A. This is a photograph extracted from a video

2 that we took in Potocari, the 1st of June, 1996. If

3 one would extract from the video of the interview given

4 by General Krstic a still photograph, one could notice

5 on that photograph the top right windows of this blue

6 building, as well as the electrical pylons which are

7 visible behind the building. The approximate area

8 where the interview took place is on this dotted line

9 where these two arrows are at the right of the

10 photograph. Most probably where the arrow is, which is

11 closest to the right frame of the photograph, was the

12 interview.

13 Q. Let me show you a still image from that

14 interview. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 158.

15 Mr. Ruez, over General Krstic's left shoulder

16 there's an image of a man in the background with a full

17 front face. Can you identify that man, please.

18 A. Yes. The man that can be seen just behind

19 General Krstic is Colonel Vujadin Popovic, the Chief of

20 Security for the Drina Corps.

21 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, thank you very much.

22 A. Also, sorry, this is a picture also where one

23 can see on the top right, you can see a bit of a blue

24 structure with -- on top of it, it's very shady on this

25 photograph, but this probably should be one of the two

Page 3464

1 pylons which were visible on the previous exhibit.

2 MR. HARMON: Could you keep that photo on the

3 ELMO, please, Mr. Usher, and if you could now get

4 Prosecutor's Exhibits 28/8 and 28/8.1 [Realtime

5 transcript read in error "128 and 128/8.1"].

6 A. On this still there is a truck just behind

7 General Krstic that hides the view of the building.

8 Q. The man you have identified as Popovic in

9 this particular image, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit

10 58, I'd like to show you two new exhibits -- two older

11 exhibits, 28/8 and 28/8.1, and ask you if this is the

12 same man who appears in Prosecutor's Exhibit 58. So if

13 we could place 28/8 on the ELMO. Is that the same man

14 who appeared behind General Krstic on the 12th of July

15 in Potocari?

16 A. Yes, this is the same man. He looks a little

17 bit younger on this photograph, which was extracted

18 from news footage dated 1993.

19 MR. HARMON: If we could now put the next

20 image on the ELMO, please.

21 Q. This is an image that was taken on the 11th

22 of July in Srebrenica. The man on the left-hand side,

23 in a brown T-shirt, carrying what looks like an

24 automatic weapon in his left hand, is that the same man

25 who appeared behind General Krstic in the interview on

Page 3465

1 the 12th of July in Potocari?

2 A. Yes. The man on the left of the photograph,

3 in a T-shirt, carrying an AK-47, is again Lieutenant

4 Colonel Vujadin Popovic.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez.

6 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, thank you.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, we've covered the first part

8 of your testimony, which is essentially to connect

9 various pieces of evidence with your knowledge. I'd

10 now like to turn to the principal part of your

11 testimony and the reason why you were called back to

12 testify.

13 During the first part of your testimony,

14 which was extensive, you identified for the Trial

15 Chamber a number of locations that were relevant to

16 this particular indictment. Now we're going to go to

17 the second chapter, if you will, in respect of many of

18 those sites; that is, I'm going to ask you to identify

19 various locations where mass graves are located, where

20 people who were executed were buried. I'm going to ask

21 you to first of all orient the Judges by using

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 187 to those locations and then

23 I'm going to ask you some additional questions after

24 you orient the Judges and the gallery to these

25 locations.

Page 3466

1 If you would, Mr. Ruez, would you identify

2 the primary mass grave sites and the secondary mass

3 grave sites.

4 A. Yes. So this map is another map of the crime

5 scene of the Srebrenica case which has the specificity

6 to have the relief marked on it. The relief is fairly

7 accurate with the exception that Udrc Mountain on this

8 map doesn't seem as high as it is. For the rest, it is

9 an accurate representation of the relief of the area.

10 The relief is a very important aspect in this

11 operation. A normal map would be less clear in terms

12 of showing how remote some of these places can be.

13 Going from north to south -- the symbols also

14 are different from the first map that you got as an

15 exhibit during my initial testimony -- going from north

16 to south, the primary mass graves on this map are

17 marked with a triangle and two bodies in it. This is

18 the marking for a primary mass grave.

19 So in the north we have the Branjevo Farm.

20 There is another symbol with an excavator in it meaning

21 that the site is a disturbed site.

22 In this area north, the second mass grave

23 that was identified is the mass grave of Kozluk. That

24 is marked with a triangle with two bodies in it. It is

25 also a site that has been disturbed which is the reason

Page 3467

1 why the excavator symbol is next to the mass grave.

2 The site of Petkovci is also marked on this

3 map as an execution site, mass grave, and disturbed

4 mass grave, with the symbol of the excavator.

5 The situation is the same for the Orahovac

6 mass grave which has also the symbol of disturbance

7 next to it.

8 In the area south are also several mass

9 graves. The primary mass grave at Glogova, here on the

10 map, has also been disturbed. The symbol of the

11 excavator is next to it. But in the area of Konjevici,

12 there is a cluster of several graves. None of these

13 graves have been disturbed. The reason could be the

14 release of the aerial photographs in August 1995 to the

15 United Nations and the public. The other additional

16 reason could be also the limited amount of bodies that

17 could be found -- that are in these locations. We

18 found out later, having completed the exhumations, that

19 just above 100 bodies were exhumed in the three graves

20 in the area of Nova Kasaba.

21 The grave in the valley of Cerska is also a

22 non-disturbed site. The reason could be similar to the

23 one for the no disturbance of the Nova Kasaba sites,

24 due to the proximity of the Cancari valley site. An

25 additional explanation could be also the limited

Page 3468

1 amount -- the relative limited amount of people that

2 were present in this grave, since about 150 bodies were

3 recovered in this one which is not a huge number

4 compared with the number of people executed in the area

5 north. The third explanation could be that this area

6 is a very remote valley, as you could see on the video

7 film from the helicopter which was presented during my

8 first testimony.

9 The symbols for the secondary mass graves,

10 which are the result of a disturbance of primary ones,

11 are yellow triangles with only one individual inside.

12 You can clearly notice on this photograph, on this

13 exhibit, that in the area north are three clusters of

14 secondary sites: One along the road that we call the

15 Hodzici road; we name it according to one of the

16 villages, destroyed villages, which is along this dirt

17 road.

18 Another cluster is in the area of the village

19 of Liplje, which is also an area of destroyed villages

20 which were previously occupied by a Muslim population

21 in 1992.

22 The third cluster of secondary sites in the

23 area north is the so-called Cancari road. We picked

24 the name "Cancari" because it is also one of the names

25 of the villages along this road. The main village in

Page 3469

1 this area is Kamenica so everyone would refer to that

2 by the name Kamenica. We couldn't do that for the

3 reason that we already had used this name to name the

4 ambush that took place south of Kravica on the 13th of

5 July, 1995. So we did not use that name twice and

6 called this valley the Cancari Valley.

7 The last cluster of secondary sites is to be

8 found just at the south of the Srebrenica former

9 enclave, in the area of Zeleni Jadar, which is at the

10 bottom of this exhibit. The only little problem with

11 this exhibit is that the approximate boundary of the

12 enclave is marked on it, as well as the observation

13 posts which are in yellow colour and can create a

14 little confusion with the cluster of sites in Zeleni

15 Jadar. So please just disregard these OPs for the sake

16 of understanding this exhibit.

17 Q. Mr. Ruez, you used the word "disturbance" in

18 your testimony. Do you mean that bodies were taken

19 from the primary mass grave sites, dug up, transported,

20 and reburied in the secondary sites which are marked

21 with yellow triangles?

22 A. Absolutely. The secondary sites are the

23 result of a disturbance of the primary ones, and the

24 bodies which were inside the primary graves, except

25 those that were forgotten during this transfer process

Page 3470

1 and that were later found in the primary sites, all the

2 rest of these bodies have been scattered in these

3 numerous secondary sites, most probably with the intent

4 that we would not find them, and even if we would find

5 just a few of them, the content of these sites is

6 always between 80 -- approximately 80 and 180

7 individuals. Therefore, it would never be a

8 representation of the number of people who had been

9 assassinated in cold blood during all this process.

10 Q. Before we end with this particular exhibit,

11 let me ask you: Are all the primary mass grave sites

12 and the secondary mass grave sites depicted on this

13 exhibit located within the Drina Corps area of

14 responsibility?

15 A. Yes, indeed. All these sites are within the

16 area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, and later on

17 this map will have to be, in a way, overlaid on top of

18 a map that will represent the areas of responsibilities

19 of the various units that were present in this zone in

20 July 1995.

21 Q. You can have a seat, Mr. Ruez.

22 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, my colleague has

23 inform me that the record may be inaccurate insofar as

24 Prosecutor's Exhibits 28/8 and 28/8.1, the pictures of

25 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. I think it may show on the

Page 3471

1 record that it was 128 reflected, and the proper

2 reference, so the record can be corrected, of the two

3 images I showed Mr. Ruez are 28/8 and 28/8.1.

4 Q. Mr. Ruez, now I'd like you to develop for the

5 Trial Chamber the evidence showing that the primary

6 mass grave sites were disturbed and the possible dates

7 of those disturbances. I would also like you to

8 develop the dates when the secondary grave sites were

9 created.

10 You should have before you a series of

11 exhibits from 161, ending with 169, and if you would

12 start with the primary -- let's start with the primary

13 sites, Mr. Ruez. Let's start with the primary site of

14 Glogova, and if you would use those exhibits, please,

15 and give the Judges of this Trial Chamber the evidence

16 that relates to that particular site.

17 A. Yes. Exhibit 161/A is the map of the area of

18 Bratunac and Glogova. The two red dots on this map

19 mark the location of the Glogova sites. The Glogova

20 site is, in fact, separated in two; one that we name

21 Glogova 1 and the second one that we called Glogova 2.

22 These are grave sites. It doesn't mean that on each

23 site is only one grave.

24 Exhibit 161/1 shows the situation on the

25 ground in the village of -- former village, I mean,

Page 3472

1 destroyed village of Glogova, the 27th of July, 1995.

2 We already showed the photographs linked with the

3 creation of this mass grave site. This is the

4 situation on the ground on the 27th of July, 1995 where

5 the exhumation is completed on both sites.

6 Exhibit 161/2 is a view of the site

7 code-named GL-1, Glogova 1. This is after the

8 exhumation has been conducted. I mean, this is a

9 picture of 1996 when everything is already over there.

10 But this is the --

11 Q. Mr. Ruez, when you say "after the exhumation

12 has been conducted," are you referring to the

13 exhumation by the Office of the Prosecutor or are you

14 referring to an exhumation by the VRS?

15 A. This photograph is dated 1996, so it is in

16 fact the area after the initial burial and then after

17 the disturbance. So this one is just to indicate how

18 the area looked like at the site Glogova 1, and the

19 destruction also of the village.

20 The Exhibit 161/3 is the ground view of the

21 site Glogova 2, which, as one can see, is close to a

22 former Muslim cemetery. That photograph was already

23 shown.

24 The Exhibit 161/4 shows the site Glogova 1.

25 The photograph on the left is dated 27 July 1995, and

Page 3473

1 all the parts which are white versus all the rest of

2 the picture which is dark black is the area of

3 disturbed soil after the initial burial. The picture

4 on the right of this photograph is dated 20 October

5 1995. It is quite dark, but one can see on this

6 photograph an excavator present on the site, as well as

7 a deep trench which is going across this site. So

8 there was an open pit created there on the 20th of

9 October, 1995.

10 Q. So this is an aerial image of the

11 disturbance, in other words, the removal of bodies that

12 were initially deposited in this site being removed.

13 A. Yes. At this date, 20 October 1995, either

14 the work is still in progress since the excavator is

15 still there, or the bodies have already been taken out

16 of this site and the excavator is probably soon going

17 to redump soil inside this empty hole and recreate a

18 flat surface there.

19 Exhibit 161/5 is an aerial photograph, dated

20 30 October 1995, that shows that the site Glogova 1 is

21 finished in terms of disturbance, or the disturbance of

22 that site is done, but the site Glogova 2 is still

23 under disturbance. The same situation: either the

24 disturbance is already over and the bodies have already

25 been taken away but the presence of the front loader in

Page 3474

1 the hole could indicate there is still work ongoing, or

2 that this excavator, front loader, is now going to

3 redump the soil in the hole in order to reflatten all

4 this area.

5 The Exhibit 161/6 is a photograph of this

6 same area showing the two sites. On the right of the

7 photograph is the site Glogova 1 and on the left, the

8 site Glogova 2. This is a photograph in wintertime,

9 the ground is covered by snow, and there is nothing

10 that could indicate to anyone that something had

11 happened here if we did not have the previous

12 pictures.

13 Q. Now, when the Office of the Prosecutor

14 conducted exhumations at these sites, did they also

15 find evidence that these sites had been disturbed?

16 A. Yes, absolutely.

17 Q. We won't go into detail, that will be the

18 subject of additional testimony by witnesses who will

19 be testifying after you, but I just wanted to have you

20 confirm that fact.

21 A. Yes. My colleague Dean Manning will give you

22 all the details about the findings inside these graves,

23 disturbed or not disturbed, and will provide all the

24 details regarding the connection of these sites, each

25 with another.

Page 3475

1 Q. Mr. Ruez, have you finished your development

2 of the evidence in respect of this particular site?

3 A. Yes. For Glogova, the presentation is done.

4 Q. Let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 162,

5 please, which is the primary mass grave site at

6 Orahovac. Again, Mr. Ruez, if you would take the

7 exhibits in sequence and develop for the Trial Chamber

8 the history of that particular site.

9 A. Exhibit 162/A is the map of the area, and the

10 circle marks the approximate location of the Orahovac

11 primary mass grave site.

12 The Exhibit 162/1 is a photograph that I took

13 on the 26th of April, 1997 in the hamlet of Lazete. It

14 shows two things: One, the aim of this photograph is

15 to show this sign where, at the bottom of it, is

16 written in Cyrillic, "Orahovac," so that confirms the

17 name of this area. It will have some importance in the

18 future. In fact, the sign invites people in fact to go

19 to a restaurant which is on the right-hand side of this

20 photograph.

21 Just behind that sign is a white building

22 which is what one witness thinks is a railway station,

23 and he hid in this railway station just after having

24 escaped from the execution alive. He walked on the

25 railway tracks and reached that location. This is just

Page 3476

1 very close to the Grbovci school.

2 Exhibit 162/2 shows the Orahovac execution

3 sites and mass grave sites. The photograph at the left

4 is dated 5 July 1995. There is nothing special to be

5 seen on it. At the left of the picture is the road

6 that, if one exits the picture at the top, leads to the

7 Grbovci school. That was the detention site for the

8 prisoners. The little path that turns right is the

9 dirt track that then goes under the underpass of the

10 railroad and reaches the execution site which was used

11 initially.

12 On the photograph dated 27 July 1995, one can

13 see the result of the burial activity of the victims of

14 these executions, with one massive disturbance at the

15 bottom of the photo. That was the first execution site

16 used for the prisoners that were kept at the Grbovci

17 school. At the top of the photo is the second

18 execution area, and most probably also a burial site,

19 where a disturbance is clearly noticed.

20 Q. On the 27th of July, this shows where the

21 victims of this mass execution were buried; correct?

22 A. Yes, this is the initial burial location.

23 Exhibit 162/3 is a helicopter view of these

24 two sites. At the bottom of the photograph is the site

25 number 1. This area here, it was a disturbed area on

Page 3477

1 the aerial imagery. The other site, which is site

2 number 2, is just at the top right of the house that is

3 in the middle of the picture, and it is the area where

4 the second area of disturbed soil can be seen on the

5 aerial photograph. That marks the presence of a

6 secondary mass grave there.

7 Exhibit 162/4 shows the site 1. The picture

8 at the left is dated 7 September 1995; it shows how the

9 ground looks on that date. The photograph on the right

10 is dated 27 September 1995; it shows the same spot of

11 the ground and one can notice that the area of

12 disturbance has changed. The area of disturbed soil is

13 larger than on the photograph dated the 7th of

14 September. So on 27 September, the exhumation of the

15 primary site was completed and the bodies have been

16 removed from this site. As you will hear later on, not

17 all of the bodies had been removed. Some were

18 forgotten.

19 Q. And this is the smaller of the two sites at

20 Orahovac?

21 A. We cannot say that. It is the first site

22 that was used, so most probably it is the bigger one.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. At some point, the meadow was completely

25 covered with bodies, so the execution was switched to

Page 3478

1 the other site, which is LZ-2.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. Exhibit 162/5 is aerial imagery of the second

4 site of Orahovac which we call LZ-2. So the photograph

5 on the left shows the ground at the date of 7 September

6 1995. At the top of the picture, one can see the

7 railroad line.

8 I made a mistake. I mixed the two, in fact.

9 The comment that I was making for the previous one is

10 for this one. This is the site number 2.

11 Q. So this is the larger?

12 A. Yes, because site number 2 on the markings,

13 in fact it is the reverse in terms of the happenings

14 for the executions. The executions first happened on

15 the site that we mark LZ-2 and then continued on the

16 site that we mark LZ-1. We discovered, in fact, this

17 change of chronology when we brought the witnesses back

18 on the crime scene.

19 The reason is that the victims inside the

20 gymnasium never refer hearing about -- hearing the

21 shooting that is happening approximately 800 metres --

22 only 800 metres away from the gymnasium. We realised

23 the reason why when we went on the spot with the

24 survivors. The reason could be that there is a very

25 quite high elevation of ground to support the railroad,

Page 3479

1 and this makes a kind of natural sound barrier. So

2 most probably if you add the fact that the people were

3 talking a little bit in another -- in the gymnasium,

4 all this would come as rumours. And the soldiers were

5 shooting from time to time above their heads, hitting

6 the windows. This was probably also making their ears

7 buzzing, and they probably didn't hear what was going

8 on during the executions on the first site.

9 But unfortunately once the execution was

10 switched on the second site, most probably those inside

11 the gymnasium could hear what was happening, and then

12 probably this had some consequences on their conditions

13 of detention.

14 Q. What is the significance of this photograph,

15 Mr. Ruez?

16 A. This photograph, which is the LZ-2 site, but

17 that is the first execution site used on the 14th July

18 1995. On the left photograph, dated 7 September, one

19 can see the disturbed soil which is of a white colour

20 on this photograph, and on the right is a photograph

21 dated the 27th September, and the area of disturbance

22 is clearly larger than the one dated 7 September,

23 indicating that something happened there. The

24 exhumation confirmed, indeed, that disturbance happened

25 here.

Page 3480

1 Q. All right. Now, do you wish to say anything

2 else, Mr. Ruez, about the Orahovac site or should we

3 move to --

4 A. No, we are moving on to the next one.

5 Q. Okay. Now, again if you develop the evidence

6 about the disturbances that took place at the Dam at

7 Petkovci, the location of the mass execution.

8 A. Exhibit 163/A is the map of the area nearby

9 Zvornik town and Kakanj, and the circle marks the

10 location of the plateau of the Dam where the execution

11 took place and the burial of part of the victims;

12 probably not all of the victims, since we don't know

13 what happened with the victims that were -- corpses of

14 the victims that were transported away by the little

15 trailer.

16 Exhibit 163/1 is a helicopter view from the

17 Dam, and the arrow at the right of the photograph shows

18 the location of the disturbed soil where a mass grave

19 was.

20 Exhibit 163/2 --

21 Q. Now, this is a before-and-after shot, is it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Explain the "before" and explain the "after."

24 A. So 5 July 1995, the photograph at the left of

25 this picture shows the Dam, the plateau of the Dam, and

Page 3481

1 5 July is before events, so there is nothing specific

2 to be seen there.

3 We know that the execution at the Dam took

4 place on 14 July 1995. The photograph at the right of

5 this picture is dated 27 July 1995, and it shows an

6 obvious area of recently-disturbed gravel. In fact,

7 there is no soil there. It is rocks. That was the

8 creation of the primary mass grave.

9 Q. So that's where at least some of the victims

10 of that mass execution were initially buried?

11 A. Yes, the initial burial site. And on Exhibit

12 163/3, one can again see how the ground looked like on

13 the 7th of September, 1995. That is the part -- the

14 left part of this picture.

15 And for comparison, the right part of the

16 picture dated 27 July 1995 shows that the area looks

17 slightly different. The fact is that here the

18 photograph is obviously not taken at the same moment of

19 the day.

20 The photograph at the left is probably taken

21 around noon, and the one on the right, later in the

22 afternoon, so the shadows are very different on these

23 two photographs. That weakens the comparison, but we

24 can confirm that indeed the disturbance took place

25 there because an exhumation was conducted, and the

Page 3482

1 results showed that indeed it was a mass grave. And it

2 was no more a mass grave when we did the exhumation

3 because the bodies had been taken away, but body parts

4 were forgotten.

5 Q. Sometime prior to the 27th of September,

6 1995, the bodies were removed from each location; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes. From this photograph, the only

9 conclusion we can draft is that the disturbance took

10 place at some point between 7 September 1995 and 27

11 September 1995. I must add also that all this is work

12 in progress and that we might be able, in the future,

13 to narrow down a bit better these dates.

14 Q. All right. Why don't we turn to another

15 primary mass grave site, the primary mass grave site

16 found at Kozluk. If you would start with exhibits

17 found in tab 164.

18 A. Exhibit 164/A is the map of the area of

19 Kozluk, and the red circle marks the position of --

20 approximate position of the mass grave -- of the

21 execution site and mass grave of Kozluk. In fact, it

22 is very close to the Drina River, so it is not a very

23 accurate marking on this exhibit.

24 The Exhibit 164/1 --

25 Q. This is a before-and-after shot, is it not?

Page 3483

1 A. It is a before-and-after shot of the area of

2 the execution site and initial burial site.

3 Q. Would you explain, Mr. Ruez, the "before" and

4 the "after"?

5 A. Umm-hmm. The left part of these photographs

6 shows -- completely on the left, the Drina River. And

7 on the right part, it's an area of sand creeks. So

8 there had already been disturbed soil, but this

9 disturbed soil is linked with the dumping of garbage

10 and broken glass from the Betinka [phoen] factory, as

11 we know, but also because people go in this location to

12 take gravel out of these sand creeks.

13 The photograph dated 17 July 1995 shows that

14 the area has significantly been changed. We know that

15 the execution took place on this location, and here the

16 burial of the victims is completed. There is an open

17 trench that is visible at the left of the photograph

18 [indicates], the photograph that is on the right of

19 this picture. Again, you can see, just at the left

20 edge, the Drina River and one open pit [indicates]. In

21 fact, this open pit is not there to put bodies, but it

22 has been used to take soil and cover the bodies which

23 are, in fact, buried to the right of this open pit.

24 Q. So on this image, on the 5th of July, the

25 executions had not yet taken place, and therefore there

Page 3484

1 is no major disturbance of the soil. And on the

2 right-hand side, after the executions took place, one

3 can see on this image the soil has been disturbed and

4 it's significantly different; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Exhibit 164/2 is a helicopter view of the

7 area. That was -- that photograph was presented during

8 my first testimony, and I present it again to make a

9 correction. This is, in fact, not the mass grave

10 site. The mass grave site is just at the left of this

11 photograph. If one exits from the path that is just

12 here in the middle of the picture at the left

13 [indicates], then just a few metres after this, one

14 hits the mass grave area. This area here [indicates]

15 is in fact disconnected from the execution burial

16 site. It is an area of gravel. Just a confusion on

17 the very precise location. But that photograph still

18 gives a very good view on how close the river is and

19 also of how the terrain looks like and the cornfields

20 around. That also matched the information that we got

21 on site.

22 Q. Let's go to the imagery that shows the

23 disturbance of this primary mass grave, which is in

24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 164/3.

25 A. That exhibit again shows, at the left of this

Page 3485

1 photograph, the situation on the ground dated 7

2 September 1995, so after the initial burial was

3 concluded. And the photograph on the right, dated 27

4 September 1995, shows that the soil has significantly

5 changed at that location. That change on the ground is

6 linked with the disturbance of the site where

7 excavators came and unburied a certain number of bodies

8 there. The usual amount was forgotten, as my colleague

9 will explain when he will testify.

10 Q. Without going into any detail, there was

11 evidence, then, at the subsequent exhumation conducted

12 by the Office of the Prosecutor that this site had been

13 disturbed?

14 A. Yes. The exhumation conducted there

15 confirmed that indeed it was an execution site, an

16 initial burial site, and that then the site was

17 disturbed and bodies taken in an unknown direction.

18 Q. Right. Mr. Ruez, let's turn to Prosecutor's

19 Exhibit 165 and the subsequent sub-parts of that

20 exhibit.

21 MR. HARMON: This deals with the Branjevo

22 Military Farm, and Your Honours have heard testimony

23 about a mass execution that took place at the Branjevo

24 Military Farm through the testimony of Drazen Erdemovic

25 and survivors.

Page 3486

1 A. Exhibit 165/A is the map of the area. Right

2 in the middle of the right circle are the buildings of

3 the Branjevo Farm. We can see three dots that mark the

4 buildings.

5 Exhibit 165/1 is a helicopter view photograph

6 taken in 1996 of these buildings. So in the middle of

7 the photograph is the Branjevo Farm, and that picture

8 shows also the surroundings. The execution site is at

9 the right of the photograph just after passing the

10 little shed behind which the executioners were

11 staying. And on the right part of the photograph is

12 the execution field. The area where the initial burial

13 took place is also visible on the photo. It is the

14 little white area completely at the right of the

15 photograph, more or less in the middle [indicates].

16 Exhibit 165/2 --

17 Q. This photograph is taken the day after the

18 executions took place at the Branjevo Military Farm; is

19 that correct?

20 A. Yes. The execution there took place 16 July

21 1995, and this is the picture that we already showed

22 taken 17 July 1995, where bodies can be seen on the

23 ground; not all the bodies, because many of them have

24 already been taken away by that time. One can see the

25 traces of the excavator that collected these bodies on

Page 3487

1 the soil, and one can see also the burial area where

2 the exhumation is ongoing at that moment.

3 Q. Can you point out the area where the bodies

4 are located?

5 A. Yes. Where it is written at the left of the

6 picture: "Access ramp to mass grave," just underneath

7 is the area where the grave was. Just at the edge of

8 the grave is also a certain number of dots that are

9 suspected bodies [indicates].

10 Q. And where are the principal killing fields?

11 Can you point that out.

12 A. Yes. On this photograph, the area that is

13 encircled here only shows where the bodies are. The

14 execution -- the site of the execution field was larger

15 than that. It covers, in fact, all the area where

16 vehicle traces can be seen.

17 MR. HARMON: And the Court has heard

18 testimony from Mr. Erdemovic that approximately 1.200

19 people were killed at this location on the 16th of

20 July, 1995.

21 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, please, will you

22 continue.

23 A. The photograph of the same farm taken the

24 21st of September, 1995, shows that the burial area

25 that we had just been pointing at, which is more or

Page 3488

1 less at the same location on this photograph

2 [indicates] at the bottom left, is untouched. So this

3 is the situation on the ground on the 21st September

4 1995, after everything is completed there. The initial

5 burial is over, and for the moment the situation here

6 is stable.

7 Q. This photograph, Mr. Ruez, is the "before"

8 image, then, of the disturbance from the primary mass

9 grave?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Now, this next image, what does this show,

12 Mr. Ruez?

13 A. The next picture shows the situation after.

14 Q. And the next picture is 165/4.

15 A. It is dated 27 September 1995. It again

16 shows the farm, and at the location where the grave is

17 to be found, there is a newly-excavated trench. So

18 most probably 27 July 1995, the bodies have already

19 been taken out of that initial burial location.

20 Q. So sometime, Mr. Ruez, between the 21st of

21 September and the 27th of September, there was a

22 disturbance at that mass grave site?

23 A. Absolutely. We cannot conclude that the

24 excavation is completed at that moment, but it is the

25 best frame of the date that we can have at this

Page 3489

1 moment.

2 On this photograph also, there is a blowup of

3 the central part of the picture. The site is small,

4 but there is a backhoe and a front loader present at

5 the Branjevo Farm at that moment. So probably the

6 equipment that was used to do the disturbance and take

7 the bodies away from the Branjevo Farm.

8 Q. So a backhoe and a front loader are heavy

9 construction equipment that would be used to excavate

10 the soil, and collect the bodies, and put them into

11 trucks to transport them; is that correct?

12 A. It is correct. It is two types of equipment

13 that we will constantly see again in action on these

14 areas.

15 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Ruez, I think that

16 completes our tour of the primary mass grave sites. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Now what I would like you to do is focus your

20 attention on the secondary grave sites, in other words,

21 the locations where bodies were taken from these

22 primary sites, concealed, and reburied.

23 Why don't we start --

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps

25 this is a good time for the break. In that case, we'll

Page 3490

1 have a 20-minute break.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We will

5 resume the hearing.

6 Mr. Harmon, please continue.


8 Q. Mr. Ruez, just before the break you had

9 concluded your discussion about disturbances at the

10 primary mass grave sites, and I'd now like to turn your

11 attention to disturbances or the creation of the

12 secondary mass grave sites and the clusters of those

13 sites.

14 I'd like you to first of all turn your

15 attention to Prosecutor's Exhibit 166, the cluster of

16 secondary mass grave sites as Zeleni Jadar. Before you

17 begin your testimony, using the large map to your

18 right, using the pointer, could you just point out that

19 particular cluster about which you're going to be

20 testifying.

21 A. The cluster of secondary sites of Zeleni

22 Jadar is just at the south of the former Srebrenica

23 safe area, and it is just at the bottom right of the

24 map exhibit.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, using the exhibits that are

Page 3491

1 found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 166 and following, could

2 you testify about the creation of those sites, each

3 specific site, and if you can identify before-and-after

4 shots as "before" and "after" shots and if you could

5 also identify the dates that are relevant to each of

6 these images.

7 A. Yes. The first exhibit is number 166/A. It

8 is the map of the area of Srebrenica. The green dots

9 mark the precise position of these secondary mass

10 graves.

11 Q. So there are six in total at this location.

12 A. There are six sites in total. As we will

13 see, one of these sites is, in fact, consisting of two

14 graves.

15 Exhibit 166/1 is a large photograph, an

16 overview of all the area of Zeleni Jadar. It cannot go

17 completely under the ELMO so I will have it like this.

18 This shows the terrain in Zeleni Jadar. It is a rough

19 terrain of hills. It is a very remote area; nearly no

20 one is living in this place. It's a complete trashed

21 zone; it was a former combat zone. There is no one

22 living there.

23 Q. It looks heavily wooded.

24 A. It is heavily wooded, and it is also heavily

25 mined. There are several Bosnian Serb army minefields

Page 3492

1 in this area, and the choice of this area is probably

2 linked with the presence of these minefields since even

3 locals would probably be deterred to go wandering in

4 this area.

5 So this map shows the position on the ground

6 of all these secondary mass graves, and we will now

7 present them one by one.

8 Q. Will you just, while you have that image

9 before you and before the Judges, just indicate ZJ-1.

10 I take that is the location of the first secondary mass

11 grave side.

12 A. This is correct. The coding "ZJ" stands for

13 Zeleni Jadar, and "1" is the site number 1 which is the

14 most north, and then the numbering goes from north to

15 south.

16 Q. Could you just move that image completely

17 across the ELMO so all of the sites can eventually be

18 seen.

19 A. Site number 6 is the most south.

20 Q. Please continue, Mr. Ruez.

21 A. Exhibit 166/2 is a before-and-after

22 photograph of the area where the site Zeleni Jadar 1 is

23 located. On the left of the picture one can see the

24 shape of the ground at the date of 7 September 1995,

25 and on the picture on the right one can see that there

Page 3493

1 is an open pit, which is marked with a yellow arrow,

2 and that is Zeleni Jadar 1. The photograph is dated 2

3 October 1995, so at that date there was just an open

4 pit created there but nothing inside.

5 A bit further down on this photograph -- that

6 is the reason why I said that in this location there is

7 probably more than one site -- you can also see that

8 there is an open pit a bit more south of the Zeleni

9 Jadar 1 grave. We cannot count this site as a grave at

10 this moment because we could not access this place due

11 to the mine threat in this location, so it will be

12 probably done but at a later stage.

13 Q. Mr. Ruez, so what we know from this image is

14 sometime between the 7th of September, 1995 and the 2nd

15 of October, 1995 these secondary mass grave sites were

16 created.

17 A. Between this time frame, an open pit is

18 created. For the moment it is still not a mass grave.

19 For the moment it is just an open pit.

20 One can notice also the size of these pits.

21 There is no reference in size, but it's approximately a

22 tank size. You could probably enter this position with

23 a tank. So there is no reason to suspect such a hole

24 there. That could be very well something like a

25 defensive position. The fact is at that time there was

Page 3494

1 no need at all to create defensive positions in this

2 location since on the 2nd of October, 1995 the enclave

3 was already eradicated.

4 Q. Why don't you show the next image and show

5 the Judges what happened at this location at a later

6 date.

7 A. Exhibit 166/3 shows again the same area, but

8 now the picture on the left is dated 18 October 1995.

9 The same open pit is visible on the photograph. So the

10 situation between 2 October 1995 and 18 October 1995 is

11 unchanged. The same open pit south of Zeleni Jadar 1

12 is also still open.

13 On the right of the photograph, at the date

14 20 October 1995, Zeleni Jadar 1 is now a filled grave

15 and the suspect hole south of Zeleni Jadar 1 is filled

16 as well. The site had been probed, and it is indeed a

17 mass grave.

18 Q. Which site has been probed?

19 A. The Zeleni Jadar 1 site has been probed only

20 so far. So one can conclude from these photographs

21 that between 18 October 1995 and 20 October 1995 the

22 site was filled with bodies.

23 Now we're moving on to Zeleni Jadar 2 site,

24 which is Exhibit 166/4.

25 Q. Exhibit 166/4.

Page 3495

1 A. "/4." It is also a before-and-after shot.

2 The "before" shot is dated 24 August 1995. It shows,

3 in fact, only the gravel road. At the bottom of the

4 picture is a wooded hill, at the bottom of which is a

5 little river flowing. The picture on the right is

6 dated 7 October 1995, and one can observe that between

7 24 August and the 2nd of October, an open pit was

8 created there as well. At this moment the pit is

9 probably filled with water which is coming from the

10 little brook which is running there.

11 Exhibit 166/5 is a more fuzzy photograph but

12 it still shows that at 20 October 1995 the Zeleni Jadar

13 2 site is still an open pit, it is not filled. So the

14 situation has not changed between 23 October -- sorry,

15 between the previous one, between the 2nd of October

16 and the 20th of October. But between 20 October and 23

17 October 1995, that is the picture on the right of this

18 present exhibit, that one can see that the Zeleni Jadar

19 site 2 is filled.

20 An additional comment on this site is that we

21 found out during the exhumation of this site that it

22 was a disturbed site. This is the only disturbed

23 secondary site that we have encountered so far. We

24 have no reasonable explanation that could explain what

25 happened. There is still something that could be

Page 3496

1 double-checked. There could be a pumping station in

2 this location of Zeleni Jadar using the water from that

3 brook and then this water is allegedly pumped to bring

4 water to Srebrenica town. So it might very well be

5 that these bodies here will have polluted the water

6 table and therefore they had to be taken away at a

7 later stage. But we do not have the explanation of why

8 this secondary site was later on disturbed, and we do

9 not know when the disturbance took place.

10 Q. So by "disturbed," you mean the bodies in

11 this secondary site were removed and located some place

12 else.

13 A. Yes, absolutely.

14 Q. Please continue, Mr. Ruez. Go to the next

15 before-and-after shot.

16 A. Exhibit 166/6 is a before-and-after

17 photograph of the site that we name Zeleni Jadar 3. On

18 the picture dated 7 September 1995, on the left of the

19 screen, one can see the ground before a change occurs,

20 and at 2 October 1995, one can see that there is an

21 open hole which is marked on this photograph with

22 yellow markers "Zeleni Jadar 3."

23 The next photograph is the same site. It is

24 the Exhibit 166/7. The photograph is a bit fuzzy but

25 still shows that at 20 October 1995 the hole does not

Page 3497

1 exist any more; it has been filled. The site has been

2 probed and contains multiple remains.

3 Q. So between the 2nd of October, 1995 and the

4 20th of October, 1995 the hole was filled with human

5 remains.

6 A. With human remains, absolutely.

7 The following exhibit is 166/8. It shows two

8 sites that are in the vicinity of each other. The

9 photograph at the top of this picture is dated 7

10 September 1995 and shows nothing special. Compared

11 with the photograph dated 12 October 1995, one can

12 observe that there are two open pits created in that

13 location, so created between 7 September and 12

14 October. One is code-named Zeleni Jadar 4 and the

15 second one is Zeleni Jadar 5.

16 We will mark on the picture 7 September where

17 these sites are because the photograph is taken from

18 another angle and this transforms the landscape a bit.

19 The Zeleni Jadar 5 site -- this does not work -- the

20 Zeleni Jadar 5 site is in that location and Zeleni

21 Jadar 4, on the photograph dated 7 September, would be

22 where I put the second arrow, which is here. So a

23 slightly different perspective than the photograph

24 dated 2 October 1995.

25 In 12 October 1995, so we have open pits in

Page 3498

1 these locations, and the next exhibit, which is 166/9,

2 is also a photograph that is a bit fuzzy but one can

3 still see on this one that both the site Zeleni Jadar 4

4 and the site Zeleni Jadar 5 are now filled. These

5 sites were -- Zeleni Jadar 4 site was probed and

6 contains multiple human remains, and Zeleni Jadar site

7 5 has been fully exhumed and the results of this

8 exhumation will be developed by my colleague Dean

9 Manning, as well as the connection between this site

10 and some primary one.

11 The next exhibit is 166/10 and shows a

12 before-and-after photograph of the site number 6. One

13 can see that at 7 September 1995 there is nothing

14 special on the ground, but at 27 September 1995 there

15 is a big trench, big open trench, that can be seen in

16 that location. So that site was created -- that open

17 pit was created between 7 September and 27 September.

18 Exhibit 166/11 shows the same terrain, this

19 time dated 12 October 1995, the picture on the left

20 side. It is quite unclear to determine at what stage

21 this site is at this moment. It is obvious that the

22 site is no more an open trench but it is still not --

23 the work is still not completed there, since at 18

24 October 1995 one can see that there is a large area of

25 disturbed soil on that same spot where previously there

Page 3499

1 was an open trench.

2 So the conclusion we can draw here is that it

3 is only for sure 18 October 1995 -- at some point

4 between 12 October 1995 and 18 October 1995 that the

5 work was completed on this site.

6 Q. Now, has that site been probed or exhumed?

7 A. The site has been probed and the presence of

8 multiple remains was found there.

9 Q. Mr. Ruez, does that complete your review of

10 the secondary sites at Zeleni Jadar?

11 A. This is correct. So we have six confirmed

12 secondary sites in Zeleni Jadar, and a potential number

13 7 grave which could be, in fact, the one just south of

14 the site number 1. We will determine that probably

15 this year.

16 Q. Mr. Ruez, I'd like you to focus your

17 attention on the cluster of secondary sites now at the

18 Hodzici road. Would you again begin by pointing out on

19 the large map where that cluster of secondary grave

20 sites is located.

21 A. The Hodzici sites are just at the west of

22 Zvornik town. It is a dirt road that goes from Zvornik

23 to the national road that then goes to Tuzla. It's a

24 dirt road. It's an area of destroyed villages formally

25 occupied by Muslims in 1992.

Page 3500

1 Q. Now, is this also an isolated area that's

2 heavily wooded?

3 A. Yes, the same situation, with a difference

4 with the others, which are mainly in valleys. This one

5 is along a road which follows a hill line.

6 Q. All right, Mr. Ruez, thank you.

7 A. So regarding these sites, the Exhibit 167/A

8 is the map of the area, and the green dots mark the

9 precise position of seven sites which have been found

10 and probed and confirmed as mass graves containing

11 human remains. Some of them have been fully exhumed.

12 Exhibit 167/1 is an aerial photograph -- a

13 mosaic of several photographs reconstructing the

14 so-called Hodzici road.

15 Q. Can you explain the coding, please, on the

16 exhibit?

17 A. Yes. So all the sites we have worked on are

18 marked on this photograph, starting with HZ-1 -- that

19 stands for Hodzici 1 -- through Hodzici 7, with very

20 precise spot marking where these graves are.

21 Q. Mr. Ruez, on the caption on the lower

22 right-hand image, it says "Cerik Road Segment." The

23 other two captions say "Hodzici Road Segment." Just

24 for the record, will you explain the difference,

25 please?

Page 3501

1 A. The difference comes from the titles that

2 were given to these photographs from the US State

3 Department, who provided us these pictures.

4 Q. But for purposes of this testimony, all of

5 these sites are referred to as the Hodzici road?

6 A. Yes. Cerik is the village closest from the

7 graves Hodzici 6 and Hodzici 7. The reason why? On

8 that photograph initially, the area was not just Cerik

9 but was also closer to Hodzici, which is why they were

10 named "Hodzici." For us, we named the entire road

11 "Hodzici."

12 Q. All right. With that clarification, please

13 continue.

14 A. Exhibit 167/2 is a photograph of soil, dated

15 7 September 1995, where a grave will be created later

16 on.

17 Q. For the record, Mr. Ruez, this is a

18 location -- a "before" shot of the location where

19 Hodzici 1 or 2 is located?

20 A. This is a photograph where the site 2 will be

21 located.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. The site 1 -- I have to confirm -- correct

24 something. Site 1 has been trenched, probed, and was

25 negative. The site 1 does not exist.

Page 3502

1 Q. All right. With that clarification, then,

2 please continue.

3 A. So the second exhibit is number 167/3 and

4 shows the same terrain but dated 7 October 1995,

5 showing that in between the 7 September 1995 and that

6 date, 7 October 1995, an area of disturbed soil can be

7 seen here.

8 Q. You mean "2 October 1995," not "7"?

9 A. 2 October 1995. And this is the site of

10 Hodzici 2.

11 The next exhibit, 167/4, showed the area

12 where the site 3 will be created. This photograph is

13 dated 7 September 1995. It just shows the dirt road

14 and the hills around it with trees.

15 And the second -- the Exhibit 167/5 shows the

16 same terrain 2nd October 1995, where there is a clear

17 disturbance of soil that marks the position of the

18 Hodzici 3 site.

19 Q. So between the 7th of September, 1995, and

20 the 2nd of October, 1995, the Hodzici Road 3 site --

21 secondary grave site was created?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Exhibit 167/6 shows a cluster of destroyed

24 houses. The photograph is dated 7 September 1995. And

25 in the vicinity of this cluster of destroyed houses,

Page 3503

1 two sites will be created between the 7 September 1995

2 and the 7 October 1995.

3 The Exhibit 167/7 shows that same terrain at

4 the date of 2nd October, where --

5 Q. Mr. Ruez, let me correct the record. The two

6 sites were created, according to your testimony just a

7 moment ago, between the 7th of September and the 7th of

8 October, 1995?

9 A. Sorry, a misspelling for me. It is the 2nd,

10 not the 7th. It's my spelling that makes the

11 confusion.

12 Q. They were created between the 7th of

13 September, 1995, and the 2nd of October, 1995?

14 A. Yes, absolutely.

15 Q. All right.

16 A. The next exhibit, 167/8, is a photograph

17 again dated 7 September 1995 --

18 Q. Mr. Ruez, I'm sorry. Could you go back to

19 the previous exhibit, the one on the 2nd of October,

20 1995.

21 A. Yes, where now one can see two areas of

22 disturbed soil that are, for us, the site of Hodzici 4

23 and Hodzici 5.

24 Q. And have both of those sites been probed?

25 A. Yes, and they both contain remains. There

Page 3504

1 has been exhumation also conducted there, full

2 exhumation.

3 I represent the Exhibit 167/8. It is another

4 area along that so-called Hodzici road, also a cluster

5 of destroyed houses.

6 On that same terrain, the Exhibit 167/9, that

7 is a photograph dated 7 October -- 2nd October 1995,

8 where the site Hodzici 6 is clearly visible on that

9 picture, a clear area of disturbed soil present there.

10 That is also a confirmed secondary site.

11 The Exhibit 167/10 shows the terrain in a

12 location nearby the village of Cerik. That is still,

13 for us, the Hodzici road. That photograph is dated 7

14 September 1995. There is nothing specific to see on

15 this one.

16 But on the Exhibit 167/11, that shows the

17 same terrain at the date of 2nd October 1995, one can

18 see that there is an area of disturbed soil. This is

19 the site Hodzici 7, which is a confirmed secondary mass

20 grave.

21 Q. So between the 7th of September, 1995, and

22 the 2nd of October, 1995, HZ-7 was created?

23 A. Absolutely.

24 Q. Would you just keep that picture on the ELMO

25 for a minute, Mr. Ruez. These are aerial images taken

Page 3505

1 from a particular elevation above. Have you been to

2 this particular series of secondary grave sites?

3 A. Yes, I've been to this series of graves. But

4 I didn't -- I was not part of the mission that we

5 conducted to pinpoint them. I went to them after that,

6 that is, another case for the other one we are talking

7 about where -- was on the mission where we actually

8 found them. These ones were found during another

9 mission. We found these ones with the assistance of

10 the aerial imagery. Without this aerial imagery

11 provided by the US government, never ever would we have

12 found this site south of Zvornik.

13 Q. Why is that?

14 A. Because, as you will see on a film that we

15 show later, vegetation grows very fast, and with the

16 normal means of observation and probing, we would never

17 have been able to find these places. The methods we

18 used -- we used in 1996 to find graves and probe graves

19 was not fairly sophisticated enough to enable us or

20 give us a chance to find these sites with normal

21 techniques. Without the assistance of imagery

22 analysts, we would never have found these places south

23 of Zvornik.

24 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, have you finished now

25 the testimony about the secondary sites along this

Page 3506

1 particular road?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Let's turn now your attention to the third

4 set of secondary mass graves, those at Liplje. Again,

5 if you would kindly approach the large exhibit, using

6 the pointer, and indicate where that cluster of

7 secondary mass graves is located.

8 A. The cluster of Liplje sites is just where the

9 village of Liplje is marked on the map just south-west

10 of Zvornik town. It is also a former Muslim village

11 and is completed destroyed.

12 Q. Can you give a general description of the

13 terrain at that location?

14 A. All the area south-west of Zvornik is an area

15 of hills and valleys. They just continue one after

16 another. One could quickly get lost on all the paths

17 which one can travel on with four-wheel drive vehicles

18 in this area. There are a lot of hiding places there.

19 Q. I take it this is not a heavily populated

20 area where this set of secondary graves was located.

21 A. Before 1992, it was populated. But during

22 the war, I mean, just after the ethnic cleansing

23 campaign of 1992, there were no Muslims left living in

24 this area, and no one lived there during the last

25 years.

Page 3507

1 Now refugees, Muslim refugees, are returning

2 in these areas and are trying to reconstruct their

3 homes and their lives in this place. The problem is

4 that all these secondary sites in their vicinity will

5 have to be exhumed also before they can quietly

6 resettle there.

7 Q. Mr. Ruez, please make your presentation in

8 respect of these Liplje secondary mass graves sites.

9 A. The Exhibit 168/A is the map of the area of

10 Zvornik that shows the precise location of the Liplje

11 secondary graves, where we have four sites. The green

12 dots numbered from 1 to 4 mark the locations of these

13 graves.

14 The next exhibit is 168/1, and it's an

15 overview of the area of Liplje, where all the graves

16 can be seen. From the right to the left, the right of

17 the picture being the north on the ground, is Liplje 1

18 through Liplje 4. There is an additional problem now

19 in this area. It's that the town of Zvornik is using

20 the area in between the Liplje site 4 and the Liplje

21 site 3, and has a garbage dump site for Zvornik town.

22 The situation started in 1996, and now the garbage is

23 at the edge of these graves.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, LP-1 is the code for Liplje 1,

25 and all the way through --

Page 3508

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. -- to LP-4?

3 A. Yes, it is. "LP" is the code name for

4 "Liplje."

5 Q. All right. Please proceed with your

6 before-and-after images.

7 A. The next image will focus on the first site,

8 which is Liplje 1.

9 Exhibit 168/2 shows an area of completely

10 destroyed houses where, aside from these destructions,

11 nothing specific is to be observed. The photograph is

12 dated 7 September 1995, so it is a "before" shot for

13 the sites Liplje 1 and Liplje 2.

14 Exhibit 168/3 is a photograph of the same

15 location, with two differences on it -- really three

16 differences.

17 The first one is an area of disturbed soil

18 behind a house, a destroyed house, and this is the

19 location of grave Liplje 1; probed, confirmed presence

20 of multiple remains in this site.

21 On the same picture, one can see, more south,

22 right, on the photograph, the location of the site of

23 Liplje 2. That site had been fully exhumed. But one

24 can also notice on that photograph that there is an

25 area of disturbed soil at the top of the picture above

Page 3509

1 Liplje 2 [indicates], which does not appear on the

2 previous exhibit. Therefore, this is a location that

3 we will still need to check. It might add one site in

4 this area. Again, unfortunately, the investigation is

5 far from being over on that topic, and the disclosure

6 of all of these elements is going to put at risk all

7 the people who will be doing the job there.

8 The next exhibit is 168/4, and there is no

9 "before" shot for this site. But one could assume

10 that if we had a photograph dated 7 September 1995 to

11 show you, we would see that there is nothing specific

12 in that location. This one is dated 7 October 1995 and

13 shows an area of disturbed soil. That is, for us, the

14 site Liplje 3 which had been probed and confirmed as a

15 secondary mass grave.

16 Q. For the record, to clarify the record again,

17 your testimony reflects a date of the 7th of October,

18 1995. I think you had meant the 2nd of October.

19 A. 2nd October 1995. On this photograph, also

20 the title says "Snagovo." Again, it's just a question

21 of naming the place. We call all these sites Liplje,

22 even though this is not exactly Liplje village. It's

23 just that Liplje is the main village in this area.

24 The next exhibit is 168/5. It is again a

25 photograph dated 7 September 1995, where there is

Page 3510

1 nothing specific to be observed aside from destroyed

2 houses. For your information, the garbage dump site I

3 was talking about has now invaded all the area south of

4 this photograph and is now at the edge of this gravel

5 road [indicates], not immediately threatening the

6 secondary sites, but they are in a very close vicinity

7 of the sites.

8 The next exhibit is 168/6. It is a

9 photograph dated 2nd October 1995, and shows that

10 behind one of these destroyed houses is an area of

11 disturbed soil, and this site has been checked and

12 confirmed also as being a secondary mass grave

13 containing multiple human remains.

14 The following photograph is Exhibit 168/7.

15 It is a colour photograph taken from a helicopter on 15

16 June 1996. It is designed to show you how the ground

17 looks from the air, but in colour.

18 I'm going to point on the picture the

19 locations of two graves which are in the frame of this

20 picture, which are Liplje 1 and Liplje 2. The other

21 sites are out of the frame.

22 The circle I've just marked here is the

23 location of Liplje 1 and then can be compared with the

24 aerial photograph to have a better reference on the

25 ground; and the second site, that is Liplje 2 has been

Page 3511

1 fully exhumed, and it's located where I'm going to

2 circle now [marks], just here on the photograph.

3 Q. Mr. Ruez, would you put an "LP-1" and an

4 "LP-2" so the record is clear.

5 A. [Marks]. Done.

6 The last photograph is Exhibit 168/1 [sic]

7 and it shows the result of a quick probe that was

8 conducted there when we first went to this area. That

9 was in 1997. That is a very shallow grave with human

10 remains inside. Many bones are scattered around. All

11 these bones have attracted a lot of attention these

12 last weeks in the area and things will have to be done

13 this summer to solve this situation.

14 Q. Just to clarify the record, the record

15 reflects that this exhibit that's on the ELMO, in the

16 record is 168/1 and it should be 168/8.

17 A. This concludes the presentation for the

18 Liplje sites.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, let's go to our final location

20 and final cluster of secondary mass grave sites on the

21 Cancari road. Using the pointer, please indicate on

22 the large map the location of the Cancari road.

23 A. The Cancari road is located south of Zvornik

24 again. It is a valley which is quite long. It's a

25 10-kilometre-long valley entering this area, and there

Page 3512

1 is a possibility to exit this valley also, to hit

2 another road that then goes through Sekovici to Tisce,

3 or then going north one can go towards Zvornik.

4 This is a difficult area to access which is

5 possible with normal vehicles. It would not be the

6 choice of a truck driver. The entrance of the valley

7 is just at the Drina, where the Drina River is, and it

8 is a main road that goes from Vlasenica to Zvornik.

9 Q. Can you describe the terrain, please.

10 A. It's a long and narrow valley at some point

11 but larger at other ones. It's an area completely

12 destroyed also. Again, it's an area which was in the

13 majority populated by Muslims, but not only probably.

14 Combat also has taken place in all this area in 1993

15 and 1994, so the destruction here is a mixture of

16 dynamiting houses and combat activities.

17 This is the main cluster of graves that we

18 have. There are 12 secondary graves along a stretch of

19 eight kilometres of dirt road there.

20 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, continue with your

21 presentation about the secondary graves at Cancari

22 road.

23 A. Exhibit 169/A is a map of the area that spots

24 the precise location of all these graves, starting from

25 the east to the west with number 1 through number 12.

Page 3513

1 I show on the map the location of the site

2 number 1, and you can see that then the road heads

3 north. This one will not appear on the next exhibit

4 which is an overview of all the sites, with the

5 exception of number 1 which will be out of the frame of

6 the aerial imagery.

7 The next exhibit is a photograph of that same

8 road, so a mosaic of several pictures to reconstruct

9 the road. I will have to flip it through the ELMO,

10 starting from west towards the east, in reverse order.

11 So Cancari 12, and continuing along the road.

12 Q. Mr. Ruez --

13 A. The site number 1 will be just at the bottom

14 corner of the last photograph on the right.

15 Q. So the record is clear, "CR" is the code

16 designation for Cancari road.

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. And the numbers designate the specific

19 secondary mass grave sites.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, our next exhibit

22 is going to be a film. It will be approximately ten

23 minutes. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 169/2.

24 Q. Mr. Ruez, would you explain to the Judges

25 what they will be seeing on this particular film, and

Page 3514

1 the purpose for showing it.

2 A. Yes. In reality there is not much to be seen

3 on that film, and this is the purpose of showing it.

4 The film was filmed while we were conducting the

5 exhumation -- I mean, Professor Richard Wright was

6 conducting the exhumation at the Cancari 12 site. We

7 used the opportunity of his presence to pinpoint for

8 him the location of all the other sites. So I used the

9 opportunity to take very brief video footage of all

10 these sites, with the exception of 12 where the

11 exhumation was ongoing, in order to show how the

12 terrain looks like after a couple of years of

13 vegetation growing in these places. So in reality

14 there will be nothing to be seen on the film aside from

15 vegetation, but this is the interest of the film.

16 Q. The vegetation shows that -- conceals, in

17 fact, the --

18 A. Shows that it is very well-concealed, and if

19 someone has not very, very precise information -- in

20 fact, from an aerial photograph there is nearly no way

21 that you would find the place except if he knows where

22 he dug the hole.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. HARMON: If we could dim the lights,

25 please, and if we could show Prosecutor's Exhibit

Page 3515

1 169/2.

2 Q. Mr. Ruez, please feel free to make comments

3 during the transmission of this film.

4 [Videotape played]

5 A. So this site is the site of Cancari 11. The

6 site, in fact, was just at the right when I started to

7 film, and here I'm doing kind of a 360-degree tour.

8 Just at the left here is a Muslim cemetery. The film

9 is dated summer 1998. So the location of the grave is

10 just there, right in the middle of the picture. No one

11 would notice any difference in the soil if he would not

12 know that there is a grave here. And here I'm zooming

13 on a few other gravestones. So here the site has been

14 obviously created on purpose in a former cemetery. No

15 steady shot of the camera, I'm sorry. This is why the

16 picture is moving so much.

17 This is now the Cancari 10 site which is

18 here, just in front. No difference with the rest. And

19 here you can see the shape of the houses in this

20 environment.

21 Now the site number 9. Site number 9 is now

22 here where these -- just here, where these white stones

23 are, just alongside the road.

24 Now Cancari 8. Cancari 8 is just here where

25 these bushes are visible. The only thing visible are

Page 3516

1 bushes.

2 Cancari 7 is just in front of a destroyed

3 house. Woodcutters were operating there and strangely

4 never dumped any wood there, on the site, but always

5 just next to it. That could give the feeling that they

6 knew what was there. Just here. A very, very shallow

7 grave; less than 10 centimetres of soil on top of the

8 bodies, before reaching the bodies, the body parts.

9 That's another view of the same site. Just in between

10 this destroyed vehicle and the house in the background

11 is the site.

12 Now site number 6 which is just where the

13 film starts. Here, as you can see, the valley is

14 larger than in the other locations. It's a very

15 deserted area; no one was living there during the

16 years. Also, there are a certain number of mine signs

17 in this area, either for real mines or for deterrence

18 of people to wander in the area. The signs I'm talking

19 about are generally pots that are hanging on branches

20 and that indicates to locals that there are potential

21 mines around the houses.

22 Site number 5 is just here where this group

23 of bushes are, just alongside the road, just where

24 these bushes are growing on top of it. One indication

25 of the presence of a grave is sometimes the vegetation

Page 3517

1 grows faster than on other spots, but it's not enough

2 for someone to be able to be sure that there is

3 something there.

4 Number 4, that is very nearby number 5 and

5 has been fully exhumed. It's just here. So here you

6 have some indication still because -- there are some

7 spots where there is no vegetation, but even that would

8 not be enough to indicate the presence of a grave.

9 Someone would not know precisely where to find it.

10 This is the site.

11 This is now the Cancari 3 site. Sorry. It's

12 this one that has been fully exhumed, Cancari 3. And

13 here is the site, just where the camera showed it now.

14 So just on the opposite side of this dirt road is the

15 site.

16 Now it's Cancari 2, but it's even more

17 concealed because it's even a little side path that

18 cuts the main path, so this one is even more

19 concealed. And the site is in front of this house, on

20 the other side where the logs are, on the left of the

21 picture. I don't film it straight but at that time I

22 thought it was another place.

23 Here you have an example of a pot hanging on

24 a branch. That would deter any local to approach this

25 place. It might be a genuine mine threat. There are

Page 3518

1 many of these pots in the area; I just filmed a few as

2 an example. That's a way to indicate the presence of

3 mines. Putting stones like a pyramid is also a way to

4 indicate mines.

5 This is not a site. This is a mosque. It

6 was a mosque. That was the minaret before it was

7 apparently fully destroyed. That is to indicate that,

8 indeed, it was a Muslim-populated area. There is no

9 randomness also in the choice of these locations. The

10 fact that they are all Muslim villages is certainly not

11 a random fact.

12 The last, the first or the last, is Cancari

13 1, just in front here, in the fork of the main path and

14 the subpath.


16 Q. Mr. Ruez, now would you take us through the

17 before-and-after images --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- of Cancari 1 through Cancari 12.

20 A. The first site, Cancari 1, it will -- for all

21 these series of photographs, they will all be framed

22 between 7 September 1995 and 7 [sic] October 1995. So

23 the first one, the Cancari 1 site --

24 Q. Mr. Ruez, let me again correct the record.

25 They will be framed between 7 September 1995 and, the

Page 3519

1 record says, "7 October 1995." Do you mean 2 October?

2 A. Yes, 2 October.

3 Q. All right. Thank you.

4 A. So the photograph dated 7 September 1995,

5 where the site Cancari 1 will be created later, so

6 Exhibit 169/4 --

7 Q. And the previous exhibit is 169/3 that's on

8 the ELMO --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. -- the "before" picture.

11 A. Correct. It shows the same area but with a

12 date of October 2nd, and it shows clearly the area of

13 the disturbance. This site was probed. All of them

14 have been probed. Some of them have even been probed

15 twice; once when we found them and another later on by

16 Professor Wright to ensure that the assessment is 100

17 per cent certain.

18 Q. When you say "probed," the conclusions of the

19 probing was that there were multiple human remains

20 found at each of these locations.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. I could have also shown you photographs of

24 these remains for each of these sites, but it would

25 have been much more lengthy, and you will see more of

Page 3520

1 these things later on anyhow so it would have been a

2 bit useless.

3 Exhibit 169/5 is a photograph dated 7

4 September 1995 showing where the Cancari 2 site will be

5 created, and the photograph dated October 2nd shows

6 where the site, indeed, is, just in front of a

7 destroyed house, so quite a way from the main road.

8 Here the concealment effort has been even pushed

9 further.

10 Exhibit 169/7 is a photograph dated 7

11 September showing the location where the Cancari 3 site

12 will be created, and Exhibit 169/8 shows the location

13 of this site. It is marked on the picture "CR-3,"

14 where the disturbed soil is visible.

15 Exhibit 169/9, a photograph dated 7 September

16 1995, and this is the area where, at 2nd October 1995,

17 there will be present two sites: Cancari 4 and Cancari

18 5. This is the Exhibit 169/10, a photograph dated

19 October 2nd, with two areas of clear disturbed soil;

20 probed and confirmed secondary mass grave sites.

21 Exhibit 169/11, a photograph dated 7

22 September. Again, on the titles, the names change.

23 This one is Redzici. The reason is that the closest

24 village is Redzici. We call all this valley Cancari.

25 The next photograph shows the location of the

Page 3521

1 CR-6 site in this area, and that will be Exhibit

2 169/12, a photograph dated 2 October, showing the spot

3 where the Cancari 6 grave has been created between 7

4 September and 7 October -- 2 October 1995.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, let me just stop you on that

6 image right there. Are there traces of heavy

7 engineering equipment being used at this location in

8 this image?

9 A. Yes, definitely. All these traces of

10 disturbance are not done by manual digging but by heavy

11 equipment.

12 Q. All right.

13 A. Exhibit 169/13 is a photograph dated 7

14 September and shows the site number 7 just in between a

15 destroyed house and the road, nearby a destroyed

16 vehicle.

17 And 2 October 1995 is the Exhibit 169/14.

18 The site is marked on the photograph and the vehicle

19 that you could see on the film dated 1998 was already

20 there in 1995. I'm going to circle it on the picture

21 [marks]. This gives you another reference of objects

22 viewed from the air.

23 Exhibit 169/15 is a photograph dated October

24 2nd. There is no "before" shot for this one, not in my

25 possession at this moment anyhow. It shows where the

Page 3522

1 Cancari 8 site has been created. A photograph dated 7

2 September certainly exists -- I don't have it in my

3 possession -- but it would show that there was nothing

4 there at that time. It was created between 7 September

5 and 2 October.

6 Exhibit 169/16 is a photograph dated 7

7 September 1995. The area where something will appear

8 is where I will put a circle [marks], more or less in

9 the centre of this picture dated 7 September.

10 We have another one dated 27 September 1995.

11 That is the Exhibit 169/17. That shows that in between

12 7 September and 27 September 1995 an open pit was

13 created on that spot. You can clearly see the open

14 trench here which is not filled yet.

15 Exhibit 169/18 will show that between 27

16 September 1995 and 2 October 1995 the grave was filled,

17 and this is Exhibit 169/18, where now you can see the

18 disturbed soil. That is, in fact, an indication that

19 the trench has been filled with one, two, or three

20 truckloads of human remains and then closed.

21 Q. That's site CR-9.

22 A. This is the site CR-9.

23 The next exhibit is 169/19. It will show

24 where the CR-10 site has been created. It will be just

25 in front of the destroyed house, on the opposite side

Page 3523

1 of the path. I will circle it [marks]. This will be

2 the location.

3 Exhibit 169/20 is a photograph dated 27

4 September 1995 and shows that, indeed, between 7

5 September and 27 September, an open trench has been

6 created on that spot.

7 Exhibit 169/21 is a photograph dated 2

8 October 1995. It clearly shows that between 27

9 September and 2 October the site has been filled with

10 human remains. This is CR-10 site.

11 Exhibit 169/22 is dated 7 September 1995.

12 There is on this one still nothing to be seen. I'm

13 marking with a circle the area where something will be

14 visible [marks].

15 The 27 September 1995, this will be the

16 Exhibit 169/23, is a photograph dated 27 September 1995

17 showing that in between the 7th and the 27th, again an

18 open trench has been created here. It is clearly

19 visible on the photograph [marks]. I'm circling this

20 open trench [marks].

21 The Exhibit 169/24 shows that between 27

22 September and the 2nd of October, this open pit has

23 been used and filled with what we know are multiple

24 human remains. This is the site CR-11.

25 Exhibit 169/25 is a photograph dated 7

Page 3524

1 September, and it shows the terrain where later on also

2 a trench will be opened in the area I have just circled

3 [marks].

4 The next photograph is Exhibit 169/26, dated

5 27 September 1995, and shows the creation of a trench

6 [marks].

7 Q. Again on that particular image, Mr. Ruez, are

8 there traces of heavy construction equipment evident?

9 A. Yes. You can see large tyre tracks which

10 most probably had been made by an excavator on wheels,

11 UNT-type, UNT machine.

12 The following exhibit is 169/27 and is a

13 photograph dated 7 -- 2nd October 1995, showing that

14 the trench that existed the 27th has been filled

15 between the 27th September and the 2nd of October.

16 This site has been fully exhumed in 1998 and

17 contained -- I don't have a precise number in my head,

18 but --

19 Q. You don't have to worry about that,

20 Mr. Ruez. There will be subsequent testimony about the

21 number of bodies that were exhumed from that particular

22 site.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Let me turn, Mr. Ruez, because our next

25 exhibit is going to be a film, Prosecutor's Exhibit

Page 3525

1 169/28 --

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

3 perhaps we need to have a break, because to continue

4 until 2.30 without a break, I think, it will be too

5 much for the interpreters. So maybe we should have a

6 15-minute break now, and then we'll go on until 2.30.

7 --- Recess taken at 1.50 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 2.07 p.m.

9 [The accused entered court]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon,

11 please continue.


13 Q. Mr. Ruez, we're now going to see a film,

14 Prosecutor's Exhibit 169/28. And as we usually do,

15 will you please inform the Judges and the public

16 gallery what will be seen on this particular piece of

17 evidence.

18 A. This film will show the exhumation in

19 Cancari 12 site. It was the first full exhumation of a

20 secondary site, so it will be only an example of that

21 kind of activity that we will present to you visually

22 in film format.

23 MR. HARMON: If we could reduce the lights,

24 please, and if we could play Prosecutor's Exhibit

25 169/28, please.

Page 3526

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Mr. Ruez, please feel free to comment during

4 the course of this viewing. I think we have a re-run.

5 Is this a film we have previously seen or is this --

6 A. No, this should be the good one.

7 We initially saw the location of the site,

8 and this is the surroundings. This is a film that I

9 had filmed at the time of the exhumation.

10 This is the path leading towards Cancari 11

11 and the exit of a valley.

12 This is a 360-degree tour of the environment

13 of this site. There is a mixed resettling there. Some

14 Serbs were settling in the area in 1998, and now

15 Muslims are returning in the area.

16 These are two surveyors who are, in fact,

17 creating a very precise map of the grave area, and you

18 will see them later on plotting every single object

19 inside the grave.

20 This is Richard Wright seen from the back,

21 and the little backhoe is now scooping the soil in

22 order to identify the perimeter of the grave. That's

23 the first activity that Professor Wright does on a

24 grave site.

25 So the first part of the process is to scoop

Page 3527

1 the surface. At one point, we'll see that there is a

2 difference of colour in the soil. And here Richard

3 Wright just marked this, and now he's putting flags on

4 this perimeter. Here you can see on the left and the

5 right there is already a difference.

6 This is now making the tour of the grave.

7 This is already the end of one side of the

8 grave. Due to the way the digging machine initially

9 created that grave, in fact, there were remains beyond

10 the initial separation line of the two types of soils.

11 This gives you already here the beginning of the shape

12 of the grave. The excavator is used only during the

13 hardest work, but after that, everything turns manual.

14 The blank is normally -- no, it's not

15 finished yet. It's a normal blank, because we changed

16 days.

17 So here they are doing the tour of the grave,

18 and all the mound in the middle is already the content

19 of the grave. They are currently narrowing down the

20 size of it, and here the first human remains start to

21 appear.

22 Since it is a secondary site, there are very

23 few complete bodies in it, due to the way the initial

24 burial was conducted using heavy equipment, then the

25 unburial using again heavy equipment, then the

Page 3528

1 transportation in trucks, the dumping from the trucks,

2 the refilling of the hole with heavy equipment. All

3 this destroys the bodies under. You end up only with a

4 mixture of body parts.

5 This was a -- this is a hand popping out of a

6 mound of soil, which is now being protected with

7 plastic.

8 These are skulls popping out of the soil.

9 Here is a shoe.

10 Here you can see a colleague using a metal

11 detector in order to find shell casings mixed with the

12 bodies. As we said, we had collected an amount of

13 shell casings on every execution site, and now here the

14 aim is to collect also shell casings. The aim is then,

15 later on, to compare these shell casings and make

16 connections between execution site, primary mass grave,

17 and later on secondary mass grave.

18 Here the members of the exhumation team are

19 on top of the grave, and they are cleaning the surface

20 of it.

21 This is the first shell casing found. Due to

22 the style of the executions, the shell casings were

23 mixed with the bodies, so then when the bodies were

24 taken away, the shell casings were taken away as well.

25 Professor Wright will be able to provide you

Page 3529

1 with detailed explanations regarding his methodology,

2 but you can already observe that this is real

3 archaeological work. The aim is not to pull the bodies

4 outside of the soil but to make sure that nothing is

5 missed and every part is properly preserved.

6 This is how the grave looks like once the

7 surface of it has already been cleaned. This site

8 probably contained -- I mean the measurement unit for

9 this site is truckload, so this would probably be two

10 truckloads or three truckloads. Professor Wright might

11 have more details on this.

12 Every evening the site is covered, filmed,

13 refilmed the next morning to ensure that nothing

14 happened during the night, and it is guarded during the

15 night.

16 It's not finished.

17 This is again the hand that was protected

18 with the plastic bag. That day they continued the work

19 around it.

20 The little noise means a positive reaction to

21 metal.

22 This is the grave filmed from above. There

23 are often changes in the concentration of all these

24 body parts probably linked with dumping from the truck

25 which transported all these remains from the primary

Page 3530

1 site to this secondary one. Just for an indication,

2 these bodies are coming from the Branjevo Farm.

3 Once this phase was completed, the process of

4 retrieving the body parts started.

5 These are the surveyors plotting every object

6 before it is retrieved from the grave, every object and

7 also every body part.

8 The element missing on the film, for sure, is

9 the smell.

10 This is an example of the difficulties these

11 experts encounter when they have to retrieve body parts

12 in such a mixture of bodies. I made this piece short

13 but it lasted probably an hour, to retrieve just this

14 one part; the problem being to follow the part to make

15 sure that it won't get disconnected with what is

16 attached to it in the process of retrieving the body.

17 It was a leg. It took them a long time to retrieve

18 this part.

19 This is three years after the events and one

20 can see that some of the parts are still

21 well-preserved.

22 I don't think that was supposed to be the end

23 but -- it was not the end. Could we be informed about

24 the reason why it's finished.

25 THE REGISTRAR: I spoke with the technical

Page 3531

1 booth and they said that was all that was on the tape.

2 THE WITNESS: Okay. No problem.

3 MR. HARMON: We can raise the lights. We've

4 finished with the exhibit.

5 Mr. Ruez, I have concluded my examination.

6 Mr. President, Judge Wald, that concludes the

7 presentation of Mr. Ruez on direct examination. Thank

8 you.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we will

10 resume perhaps tomorrow with the cross-examination of

11 Mr. Ruez. For today we cannot continue.

12 We will meet again tomorrow, here, at 9.30.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

14 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

15 the 26th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.