Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4594

1 Monday, 26 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

7 gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth, interpreters; they're

8 here, I can see. Good morning, legal assistants, court reporters. Good

9 morning, Madam Registrar. Good morning, Mr. Harmon and Mr. Cayley. Good

10 morning, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Visnjic. Good morning, General Krstic.

11 Good morning, Witness. We are here now to continue. Do you feel

12 rested?

13 WITNESS: WITNESS BB [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I wish to remind you that you

17 are continuing to testify under oath, answering questions which Mr. Harmon

18 - I see him ready and prepared - is going to put to you.

19 Mr. Harmon, your witness. You have the floor.

20 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

21 Honours. Good morning, counsel.

22 Examined by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd]

23 Q. Good morning, Witness BB. When we finished on Friday, we had

24 finished with our discussion of Prosecutor's Exhibit 343 which dealt with

25 buses and trucks. Now I'd like to have the usher, please, show you

Page 4595

1 Prosecutor's Exhibit 359, as well as notebook 285.

2 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, notebook 285 is found at tab 7.

3 Mr. Usher, if you would kindly show Witness BB the B/C/S version found at

4 359B. It's handwritten. In Prosecutor's 285, if you would turn to

5 page -- the last three digits in that are 990. I'm sorry. The last three

6 digits are 789 and 790. Do you have that in front of him, Mr. Usher?

7 Thank you.

8 Q. Witness BB, would you take a look at the handwriting in

9 Prosecutor's Exhibit 359B, and first of all, can you identify that

10 handwriting?

11 A. Yes, this is my handwriting.

12 Q. Now, would you turn to page -- the last three digits are 789 and

13 790 in Prosecutor's 285. Is that the same handwriting that appears before

14 you and the same document that appears before you that's found in

15 Prosecutor's Exhibit 359?

16 A. Yes, this is the same handwriting.

17 Q. Now, this also is a conversation, and I'm referring to the

18 conversation that was intercepted at 1200 hours, Witness BB, this is a

19 conversation that you intercepted; isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Let me read this into the record, and then, Witness BB, we're

22 going to attempt, as we have in the past, to date this conversation. I

23 will start reading:

24 "785.000 MHz, Ch 11, 1200 hrs

25 Participants X and Y

Page 4596

1 They are talking about buses being collected.

2 25 buses ...

3 3 buses from (Trka?)

4 5 buses from Ilijas

5 9 buses from Pale and Sokolac

6 1 trailer-truck from Bratunac

7 3 trailer-trucks from Bratkovici

8 Radakovic asks for permission to use 14 trucks. He'll keep

9 them in reserve. They're requesting two more trailer-trucks

10 from the 35th base in Bijeljina. One trailer-truck is

11 worth two busses. They still do not know how many vehicles

12 will come from Rogatica and Visegrad. An empty tanker truck

13 is coming from Ratkovici. The request for fuel has been

14 forwarded to Krstic. So, so far over 50 buses have been

15 obtained."

16 Now, this is a conversation, Witness, that you personally

17 intercepted, you told us that. I'd like to focus on the date, then, when

18 this conversation was intercepted.

19 Using Prosecutor's 285 that's in front of you, I'd like to repeat

20 the exercise that you and I went through in my office. Could you first

21 turn to page -- the last three digits in 285 are 781.

22 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, could you assist him, please.

23 Q. On the upper left-hand corner of 781, do you see a date on that?

24 A. Yes, I can see the 12th of July, 1995.

25 Q. Now, could you turn to page -- the last three digits are 800 in

Page 4597

1 Prosecutor's 285. Witness BB, do you see a date on that page?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. What is that date?

4 A. The 13th of July, 1995.

5 Q. Therefore, what is your conclusion as to the date when you

6 intercepted the conversation that's reflected in Prosecutor's Exhibit 359?

7 A. The 12th of July, 1995.

8 Q. I'd like to turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 359C which is a printout

9 that is attached to the same exhibit.

10 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would kindly put 359C in front of

11 the witness.

12 Q. Witness BB, do you see that same conversation in the middle of the

13 page on Prosecutor's Exhibit 359C?

14 A. Yes, I can see it.

15 Q. Can you tell the Judges specifically, what is this printout?

16 A. It is a document which the operator, the signalsman, typed from

17 the notebook. After that, he encrypted it and forwarded it to the higher

18 command.

19 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, if I may go into private session for

20 two or three questions. It won't last more than a minute or two. I need

21 to further explore this document.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

23 session.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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Page 4599

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, we're in public

7 session. You may continue.

8 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, we're going to be using a different

9 notebook for this exhibit, so it will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, and

10 that's found at tab 2, and the exhibit we're going to be using is

11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 344.

12 Now, Mr. Usher, if you'd put 344/1B, the B/C/S version of this

13 exhibit, in front of this witness, please; and in Prosecutor's Exhibit

14 280, if you would turn to page 688 and 689, referring to the last three

15 digits in the ERN number.

16 Q. Now, Witness BB, would you take a look at the text in Prosecutor's

17 Exhibit 344 and turn your attention to the text that's found in

18 Prosecutor's Exhibit 280 at pages 688 and 699 [sic], and tell us if the

19 text is identical; that's the same conversation.

20 A. Yes, it is the same conversation.

21 Q. And who -- is that your handwriting in Prosecutor's Exhibit 344?

22 A. It is my handwriting.

23 Q. And is this a conversation that you intercepted?

24 A. It is.

25 Q. I will read this conversation, and then we will attempt to date

Page 4600

1 this conversation, Witness BB. I will start reading.

2 "785000, Channel 5, at 1305 hours.

3 Krstic - Sobot

4 Krsmanovic sets off towards Krstic --"

5 I'm sorry, let me reread that.

6 "Krsmanovic set off towards Krstic 15 minutes ago.

7 K: How many buses have started from up there?

8 S: Twenty.

9 K: (OK?) twenty.

10 S: And the others are on the road someway.

11 K: Yes, on the road, OK.

12 S: ...

13 K: Put me back to the switchboard. Miss, put me through to

14 the Vlasenica Brigade.

15 C: Yes.

16 K: This is Krstic.

17 C: Can I help you, General?

18 K: Give me Kosoric.

19 C: He's not in... he went somewhere.

20 K: Give me Savo, put me through to Savo

21 S: How are you General? This is Savo.

22 K: Srpski! /excellent/, fuck it, how else.

23 S: Congratulations, fuck...

24 K: Get in touch with these guys from the MUP /Ministry of the

25 Interior/. That means you, your brigade and them.

Page 4601

1 S: I gave everything there is.

2 K: Wait, slow down, man, secure the road first, from the

3 crossroad below, from where you are, 12 kilometres

4 towards /?Drava/, and up to the tunnel.

5 S: To the tunnel?

6 K: Of course!

7 S: OK.

8 K: That's where they'll be disembarking.

9 S: OK.

10 K: Take care, nothing must happen to any of

11 them.

12 S: OK.

13 K: Is that clear?

14 S: Yes, sir.

15 K: Until further notice, secure that part of the road.

16 S: OK.

17 K: That's it chief, bye.

18 S: Bye."

19 And that concludes the reading of this exhibit.

20 Now, Witness BB, I asked you to attempt to date this document as

21 well in my office, so let me turn your attention first of all to page 683

22 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 280. Witness, do you see a date on page 683?

23 A. Yes, the 12th of the July, 1995.

24 Q. Now, the conversation that we're talking about --

25 MR. HARMON: In fact, Mr. Usher, would you kindly put the whole

Page 4602

1 document, Prosecutor's Exhibit 280, in front of Witness BB and put that

2 page that you've just removed, which is 683, in the right sequence.

3 Q. Now, Witness, the usher is going to still assist you, and if you

4 would turn to page 726.

5 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, help the witness, please, turn to page

6 726. It's the second to last page in the document.

7 Q. Do you see a date on that page?

8 A. Yes, I do. The 24th of July, 1995.

9 Q. Now, do you remember when you and I went through this document,

10 attempting to find the closest dates around either side of your

11 conversation that you intercepted that is the subject of this discussion,

12 that was the date that was the latest date we could find on the -- I'm

13 sorry, the earliest date we could find on the other side of the

14 conversation that we've been talking about; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So based on the dates that are in the notebook, we can say that

17 this conversation took place sometime between the 12th of July and the

18 24th of July, 1995; is that correct?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. Can I ask you to further try to analyse the probable date of this

21 conversation that's found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 344, and did you attempt

22 to do so by looking at the times and the time sequence from the date of

23 July the 12th that is found on page 683?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you able to conclude the probable date that this particular

Page 4603

1 conversation was intercepted?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What is that date? If you need to, you can go back through the

4 document, please, and inspect it. Witness BB, the date of July the 12th

5 is found on page 683 in that document, and the conversation that you

6 intercepted is found on page 688.

7 A. I concluded that the conversation took place on the 12th of July,

8 1995.

9 Q. Thank you very much, Witness BB. We'll now turn to the next

10 exhibit which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 345, and we're going to turn, once

11 again, our attention to Prosecutor's Exhibit 285 which is found at tab 7.

12 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, would you place Prosecutor's Exhibit

13 345/1C in front of the witness, please. It is the handwriting extract

14 from the notebook. Would you turn to page 802 of Prosecutor's Exhibit

15 285. It's a multipage conversation, Mr. Usher, so you're going to have to

16 -- if you'd place the whole notebook in front of the witness and he can

17 turn and inspect pages 802 through 804.

18 Q. Witness BB, is the conversation that you have before you in

19 Prosecutor's Exhibit 345 the identical conversation that is found in

20 Prosecutor's Exhibit 285 at pages 802 to 804?

21 A. Yes, it's the same conversation.

22 Q. Whose handwriting is in both of those exhibits?

23 A. This is my handwriting.

24 Q. And this is a conversation that you intercepted.

25 A. Yes.

Page 4604

1 Q. Let me read this conversation, then, into the record, and then we

2 will attempt to date this, Witness BB. I will start reading:

3 "785.000, Channel 5, 0700 hrs

4 X - Y General - Jankovic.

5 X: Give me Nesipovic on ...

6 C: One moment, General, Sir.

7 C: Hello!

8 Y: Hello!

9 C: General, Sir, Nikolic hasn't arrived yet.

10 Y: He hasn't arrived?

11 C: They're expecting him any minute.

12 Y: Give me somebody ... from his room.

13 C: From his office?

14 Y: Yes.

15 C: Here's police commander Jankovic.

16 J: Yes?

17 Y: Good morning, Jankovic.

18 J: Good morning.

19 Y: What's new?

20 J: Everything's fine.

21 Y: How many vehicles have arrived so far and how many ...

22 Turks have to be transferred?

23 J: About one third of them have probably been transferred,

24 about as many there are /as/ have arrived (now?)

25 One third have been transferred, around 70 vehicles have left

Page 4605

1 and around ...

2 Y: Around 5,000?

3 J: Yes.

4 Y: And you'd say there's another ten?

5 J: Two-thirds more.

6 Y: 10,000 more?

7 J: Yes.

8 Y: Are you ... personally?

9 J: Yes, personally.

10 Y: And are they /?is the job/ being done?

11 J: What?

12 Y: Is that job being done?

13 J: It's being done.

14 Y: At full steam?

15 J: At full steam, yes.

16 ...

17 Y: When can the first vehicles be expected up here in this

18 area?

19 J: I think in an hour or two, if all goes well.

20 Y: Good, good. Where's Nikolic?

21 J: Nikolic went home this morning at half past three.

22 Y: Where's your commander?

23 J: What?

24 Y: Where's your superior?

25 J: Up there, with the men. From up there.

Page 4606

1 Y: Good, good.

2 J: Anything else, General?

3 Y: Where's my squad commander?

4 J: He's somewhere around.

5 Y: Good, thanks. Listen, what is the man on your right-hand

6 flank, the one towards (Budim?) recording about the

7 situation?

8 J: Last night we were supposed to go with the blue one. They

9 have something, they are working, it's going well.

10 Y: What?

11 J: They are doing a good job, it's going well.

12 Y: Right, I'll check it out with him today.

13 J: Good ...

14 Y: All right, Jankovic, send what you have up here since the

15 Main Staff has been ... /to/ me every six minutes ... /as

16 written/

17 J: Very well.

18 Y: Good luck, take care!"

19 And this is signed. That ends the reading of this particular

20 document.

21 Now, once again, Witness BB, I had asked you previously in my

22 office to attempt to date this. Let me direct you to certain pages in

23 Prosecutor's Exhibit 285.

24 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would direct the witness to page

25 800 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 285, your conversation starting at 802.

Page 4607

1 Q. Page 800, on that page do you see a date?

2 A. Yes, the 13th of July, 1995.

3 Q. Do you recognise that handwriting?

4 A. Yes, it's my handwriting.

5 MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you could direct the witness to

6 page 818 in the same exhibit, 285.

7 Q. Is that the first date that you could find after your conversation

8 that we've been talking about?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is that date?

11 A. The 17th of July, 1995.

12 Q. So we can say that the conversations found in Prosecutor's Exhibit

13 345 occurred somewhere between the 13th of July and the 17th of July based

14 on just the analysis of these two dates; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, did I ask you to, nevertheless, attempt to refine your

17 analysis and attempt to narrow and actually find the actual date of this

18 conversation?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would kindly hand the witness

21 Prosecutor's Exhibit 285 in toto so the witness can inspect the pages

22 starting at page 800, where the date July 13th appears.

23 Q. The conversation we've been talking about, Witness BB, starts the

24 following page after the date of the 13th of July.

25 Now, having looked at Prosecutor's Exhibit 285 both in my office

Page 4608

1 and now in court, are you able to inform the Trial Chamber of the date of

2 the conversation that we've been talking about?

3 A. This conversation took place on the 13th of July, 1995.

4 Q. On what do you base your conclusion?

5 A. I took over the shift, wrote in a new date, and continuously, all

6 the time, I worked as the operator when this conversation took place which

7 I intercepted. So that was in one period of time, one eight-hour period.

8 Q. So your conclusion is that this conversation was intercepted on

9 the 13th of July, 1995.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. HARMON: Lastly, in respect of this particular exhibit,

12 Mr. Usher, if you would show Witness BB Prosecutor's Exhibit 345/2B bis.

13 It's a typewritten B/C/S document. It should be two pages long.

14 Q. Witness BB, do you see, starting at the bottom of the first page

15 and running over into the second page, a typewritten version of the same

16 conversation?

17 A. Yes, I can see that.

18 Q. What is this document? Can you identify what this represents?

19 A. This document represents the typed-out information from the

20 notebook, the data that I recorded in the notebook.

21 Q. Thank you very much, Witness BB. We'll turn our attention to

22 another exhibit.

23 MR. HARMON: That Exhibit, Mr. Usher, will be Prosecutor's Exhibit

24 346, and it's found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, which is tab 5.

25 Mr. Usher, if you would place 346, the B/C/S version, in front of the

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Page 4610

1 witness, and if you could kindly turn to page 836 in Prosecutor's Exhibit

2 283. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I read the wrong page: 846.

3 Q. My first question, Witness BB, is, whose handwriting appears in

4 Prosecutor's Exhibit 346?

5 A. This is my handwriting.

6 Q. Do you see that identical conversation reproduced in Prosecutor's

7 Exhibit 283 on page 830 -- I'm sorry, 847. 846, I'm sorry, and 847.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, let me read this conversation into the record, and then we

10 will continue with our exercise of dating.

11 "785.000, channel 5, 1919.

12 X - Y (inaudible)

13 X: Do you have any bus there?

14 Y: I have this one which is a reserve.

15 X: Send it. Send that bus towards Visegrad, Podromanija,

16 Rogatica and further. When he comes across a bus with a group

17 of soldiers, those are the ones from Visegrad. Boban is their

18 commander.

19 Y: Say again?

20 X: Boban Indzic, and then bring them to the command in

21 Bratunac.

22 Y: ...

23 X: Go ahead and send that driver immediately. Their vehicle

24 broke down. They should have been here already.

25 Y: I'm sending the bus, immediately.

Page 4611

1 X: Please, send it right away.

2 Y: Bye.

3 X: Bye."

4 And that concludes the reading of this exhibit.

5 Now, Witness, I'd like to go and try to date this conversation.

6 If you would take Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 in front of you in toto, if you

7 would, with the assistance of the usher, turn to page 836, you see a date

8 on the upper left-hand corner of page 836?

9 A. Yes. The 13th of July, 1995.

10 Q. Now, moving past your -- the conversation that you intercepted and

11 turning to page 851, do you see a date?

12 A. Yes. The 17th of July, 1995.

13 Q. So based solely on the sequence of dates and the location of your

14 conversation in respect of those dates, can we say that this conversation

15 that is in 346 was intercepted by you somewhere between the 13th of July

16 and the 17th of July, 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Witness, did I ask you now to -- in my office, to attempt to

19 narrow down the date and the specific date when this conversation took

20 place, and did I do so by asking you to inspect the pages between 836 and

21 851?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you do so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you take a look, then, once again at Prosecutor's Exhibit

Page 4612

1 283, starting at page 836 and inspecting those pages to page 851, and can

2 you inform the Judges when you believe this particular conversation was

3 intercepted?

4 A. This conversation was intercepted on the 13th of July, 1995.

5 Q. Thank you very much, Witness BB. We'll turn our attention to the

6 next exhibit, and that exhibit is Prosecutor's Exhibit 347.

7 MR. HARMON: We'll be using the same notebook, Mr. Usher,

8 Prosecutor's Exhibit 283.

9 For the record, Your Honours, the proper English translation of

10 this particular conversation is at -- is found on Prosecutor's Exhibit

11 347/1A bis.

12 Now, Mr. Usher, kindly place the B/C/S version and place

13 Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, page 847, in front of the witness, please.

14 Q. Witness BB, inspecting Prosecutor's Exhibit 347, do you recognise

15 the handwriting in that exhibit? Do you recognise the handwriting in

16 Prosecutor's Exhibit 347?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Whose handwriting is it?

19 A. Yes, it's my handwriting.

20 Q. And could you compare the excerpt from the notebook in

21 Prosecutor's Exhibit 347, and tell the Judges whether the excerpt is from

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 283 and is identical?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I will read this transcript. I'm informed the correct English

25 translation of this is not bis, it is 347/1A, so I apologise. I will

Page 4613

1 commence reading this document.

2 "785.000, channel 05, 1945.

3 X - Y (barely audible)

4 (X is calling from General Krstic's and looking for Ljubisa

5 who has gone to Bratunac).

6 Y: There is one bus Janja.

7 X: Well, that's a detachment, I mean, part of the Janja

8 detachment.

9 Y: ...

10 X: Is it ... from Bijeljina?

11 Y: Yes.

12 X: Is that right?

13 Y: Yes, yes. Those are from Janja are here.

14 X: OK.

15 Y: And the ones from Doboj are supposed to arrive.

16 X: Yes.

17 Y: And now, what shall I do with them?

18 X: Well, you have to check about that with...

19 Y: ...because I have left it to, in fact, Ljubisa to plan it,

20 and so whenever I need to I can send it off in that

21 direction ...

22 X: OK.

23 Y: That's it.

24 X: Have Ljubisa call me at General Krstic's.

25 Y: Okay.

Page 4614

1 X: You know where is it?

2 Y: I know."

3 And it's signed, and I will not read into the record the name

4 that's on it.

5 Now, let's go through the same exercise. If we could turn to page

6 836 in Prosecutor's Exhibit 283.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, do we have to repeat

8 this whole voyage once that the transcript follows on, one after another?

9 MR. HARMON: I think it's important to attempt to narrow the dates

10 on these, and for the record, I think it's important on each of these.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then, please go

12 ahead. It's your work, yes.

13 MR. HARMON: I'll try to be faster if I can.

14 Q. Witness, on page 836, does the date July the 13th appear? I'm

15 referring to Prosecutor's Exhibit 283.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Going past your conversation to page 851, does the date July the

18 17th appear?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So based on just the dates of these two -- just these two dates

21 and the location of your conversation in respect of those dates, this

22 conversation was intercepted by you sometime between the 13th and the 17th

23 of July, 1995.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you inspect, then, Prosecutor's 283 and attempt to narrow

Page 4615

1 and give us a more precise date based on your analysis. When was this

2 conversation actually intercepted by you?

3 A. The 13th of July, 1995.

4 Q. I've concluded with this exhibit, then. Thank you very much,

5 Witness BB.

6 MR. HARMON: Now we're going to go through a series of documents,

7 starting with Prosecutor's Exhibits 354 and 355, Mr. Usher. If you would

8 place the B/C/S typewritten version in front of the witness.

9 Your Honours, the typewritten version in 354 and 355 is

10 identical. These are two separate conversations that are recorded on a

11 single typewritten sheet of paper, so I will only refer to one of the

12 B/C/S versions.

13 Q. Witness BB, could you tell us what the typewritten version that

14 records two conversations is?

15 A. It is a conversation which was typed out from the notebook. The

16 operator typed it; this is his version. He encrypted it and then

17 forwarded it to the higher command.

18 MR. HARMON: This, for the record, Your Honours, is a conversation

19 that was given to the SDB, downloaded, and this is the conversation that

20 was transcribed by the army.

21 Q. Now, at the bottom of both of these conversations, there appear to

22 be initials. We discussed these initials in a closed session. Do these

23 initials represent what you've testified to previously during the closed

24 session, during the private session, as to who intercepted and who

25 transmitted both of these conversations?

Page 4616

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Let me read both of these conversations into the record, then, if

3 I may, starting with Prosecutor's Exhibit 354.

4 "Date: 13 July 1995

5 785.000 MHz, Channel 5, 2040 hours

6 Participants: General Krstic - X (Borovcanin from the

7 specials)

8 K: Hello, this is Krstic.

9 X: Hello, this is Borovcanin, General. How are you?

10 K: Well, where are you, fuck it?

11 X: I'm here at the command post.

12 K: How's it going?

13 X: It's going well.

14 K: Don't tell me you have problems.

15 X: I don't, I don't.

16 K: ... went somewhere towards you.

17 X: That's exactly what I want to know.

18 K: ...

19 X: Is there anything special for us from you?

20 K: Working on this part ...

21 X: Yes.

22 K: ...

23 X: At the moment.

24 K: ...

25 X: We'll continue that tomorrow.

Page 4617

1 K: ...

2 X: All right, man.

3 K: ...

4 K: OK, we'll be in touch."

5 And that concludes the reading of 354.

6 Turning to 355, I'll commence the reading [as read]:

7 "785.000 MHz, Channel 5, Time: 2100 hrs

8 Direction - JI

9 Participants: Krsmanovic Milan - Viskovic Goran.

10 K: Hey, Viskovic, this is correct information, 700 people are

11 in the village of Sandici.

12 V: Yes.

13 K: That's from the intersection towards you, it is necessary

14 to stop the buses at that place, to load 10 of them

15 immediately and to bring them over here to me.

16 V: Listen.

17 K: Yes.

18 V: You go over there, it is anyhow Bratunac check-point,

19 make them get on board and come here. I don't have contact

20 with check-point from here.

21 K: OK, that's fine.

22 X: /as printed/ - Come on."

23 That concludes these two exhibits. We'll now move to the next

24 exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 360.

25 MR. HARMON: If you could show the witness 360B, Mr. Usher.

Page 4618

1 Q. Witness BB, if you would take a look at the first page, a

2 conversation that starts at 1015, it's above the middle of the page, and

3 follow that conversation through to the next page where there appear to be

4 two initials at the bottom, two sets of initials. Do you see those sets

5 of initials?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you tell us what this document represents?

8 A. This document is the typed version of the intercepted conversation

9 intercepted at the time. Therefore, it is the document which the

10 operator, the signalsman, retyped from the notebook in order to encrypt it

11 and later forward it to the higher command.

12 Q. This conversation was intercepted and transmitted from Okresanica;

13 is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. HARMON: Can we go into private session for just one or two

16 questions, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into private

18 session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4619

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in public session,

8 Mr. Harmon.

9 MR. HARMON:

10 Q. I will read this conversation into the record. I'll start

11 reading:

12 "254.300, 1015 hrs

13 Participants: Beara - Lucic and Zoka (barely audible)

14 B: Beara speaking. Hello, Signor Lucic. How are you?

15 L: ... (inaudible)

16 B: Do you hear me? Do you know that 400 Balijas /derogatory

17 for Bosnian Muslim/ have shown up in Konjevic Polje?

18 L: I know.

19 B: Where are they now?

20 L: They came down.

21 B: And they've been rounded up, disarmed, everything?

22 L: ...

23 B: Excellent, excellent, great! And there is someone to

24 guard them, huh?

25 L: There is, there is.

Page 4620

1 B: Good.

2 L: ... here we have ... over here there's this huge group ...

3 B: Yeah, well, you can also those 20 /as written/, so that

4 the forces are not dispersed. Shove them all on the

5 playground, who gives a fuck about them?

6 L: OK, then ...

7 B: They're locked up, right?

8 L: ...

9 B: Do you have enough room over there?

10 L: Well ...

11 B: Well, it's not really a detention there at your place,

12 it's just - like that.

13 L: There's room.

14 B: Yeah. Well line them up in 4-5 rows.

15 L: ...

16 B: OK.

17 L: ...

18 B: Let me talk to him.

19 Z: Yes?

20 B: Hi, Zoka.

21 Z: ...

22 B: What's new?

23 Z: Well ... easy ... there are about 500.

24 B: Uh-huh.

25 Z: ...

Page 4621

1 B: Excellent, man, great!

2 Z: ... at least ... 20 ... one group got through during the

3 night up there, behind /our/ backs.

4 B: Uh-huh.

5 Z: ... forces to come, so we could resolve this problem ...

6 B: Yes, yes. /passage missing/

7 Z: ...

8 B: Uh-huh.

9 Z: ... they're killing ...

10 B: Well, excellent. Just let them continue, fuck it.

11 Z: That's it, that's the situation, I am ...

12 B: Bye, honey.

13 Z: ...

14 B: Hey!

15 Z: ... Konjevic Polje.

16 B: Yes, yes.

17 Z: ... they're, close to 200 ...

18 B: Yes.

19 Z: ... should ... over there ...

20 B: About 200, right? Got through?

21 Z: Yes, yes. And it's like they are in groups of 5 to 6, or

22 4.

23 B: Uh-huh. OK.

24 Z: They should go and check it out on that ...

25 B: OK. I'll call them in Zvornik now.

Page 4622

1 Z: Yeah.

2 B: OK, excellent. Hey, listen bud, Grga called.

3 Z: ...

4 B: Grga, your colleague.

5 Z: ...

6 B: They're supposed to be at his place by noon.

7 Z: ...

8 B: The Frenchman and the Russian, they want to go to Potocari

9 this afternoon to the command of their battalion.

10 Z: Yes.

11 B: To visit them and to give Janvier's letter to the

12 commander.

13 Z: Yes ... cargo.

14 B. Well, there's been no feedback now, fuck it.

15 Z: We should see ...

16 B: Well, I can't find him. Where the fuck is he?

17 Z: He was in ...

18 B: Well, he went to Rogatica last night.

19 Z: He didn't ...

20 B: Well, there isn't. This guy doesn't know. From

21 Vlasenica ...

22 Z: ...

23 B: From Vlasenica he went to Rogatica to meet those

24 hillbillies.

25 Z: ...

Page 4623

1 B: I just told Pajo again to look for someone so we could see

2 what to do.

3 Z: ... commander.

4 B: Uh-huh, OK.

5 Z: ... passed the list to Gvero.

6 B: Uh-huh, OK man, bye."

7 And then there are some initials that I will not read into the

8 record. That concludes my reading of this exhibit.

9 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I notice the time but I have only two

10 brief exhibits to go. If you wish me to proceed, I'm happy to do that.

11 Mr. Usher, if you would kindly show the witness Prosecutor's

12 Exhibit 361. Mr. Usher, if you would place the B/C/S version before the

13 witness, please.

14 Q. Now, Witness BB, I'd like you to take a look at this page, that

15 is, 361B. Do you see initials on this page similar to initials that you

16 have seen in the previous exhibits?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What does this page represent?

19 A. This page is taken from the notebook, or rather, typed from the

20 notebook, a conversation that was typed out by the operator, the

21 signalsman.

22 Q. Now, on my copy of 361/B there are two sets of initials that

23 appear. One appears at the end of the small page that has -- should be

24 the second page. The next page, Witness.

25 MR. HARMON: Could I see that exhibit, please, Mr. Usher?

Page 4624

1 Q. Witness BB, I've asked the usher to direct your attention to the

2 initials that appear on the page that has the full text. It is with --

3 it's ERN number with the last digits 603, and right above the 603 you'll

4 see two initials; and if you turn to the next page of that exhibit, at the

5 end you'll also see two initials at the end. Do you recognise those

6 initials?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are those the initials of people who were working with you at

9 Okresanica?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. HARMON: I won't read this conversation into the record,

12 Mr. President. I'll turn to the next exhibit, if I could, which is the

13 last exhibit. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 362.

14 Q. Turning to the B/C/S version of this, is this also a transcription

15 of intercepted communications from Okresanica, Witness?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the two sets of initials that appear at the end of these

18 conversations, are these initials of people who worked with you at

19 Okresanica?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. HARMON: I won't read this exhibit into the record either,

22 Mr. President. I've concluded my examination, thank you very much.

23 Thank you very much, Witness BB. We're going to take a recess, I

24 believe, and then the Defence will have an opportunity to cross-examine

25 you.

Page 4625

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4626

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,

2 Mr. Harmon. We're going to have a break of half an hour, and after that

3 we'll have the cross-examination of this witness.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.26 a.m.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness BB, you are now going to

7 answer questions put to you by Mr. Visnjic.

8 Mr. Visnjic, your witness.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Visnjic:

11 Q. Witness BB, good morning.

12 A. Good morning.

13 MR. VISNJIC: Could I ask the usher to show you Exhibit 283 on

14 page 836.

15 Q. Witness BB, on this page the date 13th of July is indicated; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. My question is -- or rather, the Prosecutor during his

19 examination-in-chief asked you whether you had written that date, and you

20 said "yes"?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. My question is, did you just recognise your handwriting, or do you

23 actually remember the moment when you wrote down that date?

24 A. I recognise my handwriting.

25 Q. Does that also apply to all the other dates that you have

Page 4627

1 testified about in this Chamber?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can I then conclude that with respect to all the dates that you

4 said you had written, you actually recognised your handwriting without

5 remembering the moment when you did it?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you were authenticating the conversation shown to you by the

8 Prosecutor during your testimony, did you just recognise your handwriting,

9 or do you actually remember the contents of those conversations?

10 A. Mostly my handwriting, but I do remember the contents of some

11 conversations.

12 Q. When you say that you remember the contents of only some

13 conversations, do you remember them in detail or just in general terms?

14 A. Just limited portions of those conversations.

15 Q. Thank you. My next question relates to the type of equipment used

16 by your unit for monitoring. The Prosecutor showed the Chamber and the

17 Defence a large number of notebooks, and on the first page, among other

18 things, it said "RRU100 and RRU800". Is this the type -- the model of the

19 device that transmitted signals and which you used for interception?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is there a difference in the frequency of transmission between

22 these devices?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us which frequencies are used by RRU100 and which by

25 RRU800?

Page 4628

1 A. RRU1 transmits on frequencies roughly from 200 to 300 megahertz;

2 and RRU800, frequencies between 600 and 800 megahertz.

3 Q. When you say RRU1, you're actually referring to RRU100, are you

4 not?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So it is the same device, but only two different names are used?

7 A. I know it as RRU1.

8 Q. When you were monitoring conversations transmitted by the device

9 RRU1, in addition to the frequency, did you write down the channels on

10 which the conversation was being conducted?

11 A. No. It is a single-channel transmitter.

12 Q. Does it follow from that that the conversations next to which the

13 channels were noted are the conversations that were intercepted on the

14 transmitter RRU800?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it technically possible for the same conversation to be

17 transmitted simultaneously on RRU1 and RRU800?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that practised? Did you come across such cases during your

20 work?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Witness BB, you had an interview with the Office of the

23 Prosecutor, and you made a statement on the 12th and the 13th of May,

24 1999; is that correct?

25 A. I don't remember the date, but the year, yes.

Page 4629

1 MR. VISNJIC: Could I ask the usher for his assistance, please.

2 Q. Witness BB, is that the statement you gave to the office of the

3 Prosecutor on the 12th and 13th of May, 1999?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

6 witness the English version of the statement.

7 Q. Witness BB, is this your signature on the first and other pages of

8 the statement in English?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Witness BB, do you now recollect signing the statement in English

11 that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?

12 A. Yes, I do remember.

13 Q. This version that is unsigned is the version in Serbo-Croatian

14 which is a translation of your statement in English.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Before the 12th and 13th of May, 1999, did anyone talk with you

17 regarding these notebooks and intercepted conversations?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Am I right in saying that from July 1995 until the 12th and 13th

20 of May, 1999, no one interviewed you regarding the intercepted

21 conversations?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you tell the investigators of the Tribunal everything that you

24 could recollect in connection with these conversations and the

25 circumstances and conditions under which these conversations were

Page 4630

1 intercepted?

2 A. Yes. But I mostly answered questions.

3 Q. On page 4 of your statement in the Serbo-Croatian language, it is

4 page 3 of the English version, the first paragraph of page 4 in the

5 Serbo-Croatian version and the last paragraph on page 3 of the English

6 version, and these have been highlighted in yellow for ease, you stated

7 that you noted down the counter readings, is that correct, on the tape.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell Their Honours where you took note of the tape-counter

10 readings?

11 A. I cannot remember.

12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber or show to the Trial Chamber on any

13 of the exhibits shown to you by the Prosecutor, for example, Exhibit 283,

14 where the tape-counter reading is indicated? Is it indicated anywhere?

15 A. No, it is not.

16 Q. You know that without looking?

17 A. I have reviewed these conversations that I intercepted and I

18 didn't note anywhere that this reading had been noted down.

19 Q. Do you know what the procedure was with the tapes once you'd

20 finished with them?

21 A. Not exactly.

22 Q. How much do you know about it; could you tell us?

23 A. All I know is that the tapes went to the higher command where the

24 typed reports were sent, and from them we received empty tapes, unrecorded

25 tapes.

Page 4631

1 Q. As far as you can recollect, how many tapes would you use in a day

2 on one set of equipment?

3 A. That depended on the intensity of radio communication, that is,

4 what we were monitoring and what was interesting for monitoring and

5 interception on the basis of orders we received.

6 Q. How many messages could be taped on one tape? What was its time

7 availability?

8 A. Several hours.

9 Q. The tapes were such that you could record on both sides of the

10 tapes; is that correct?

11 A. Actually, the head of the tape recorder had two channels so that

12 it was possible to tape on one side twice, and it was also possible to

13 tape on both sides.

14 Q. I assume that due to all this it was quite logical for you to take

15 down the counter readings.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But you don't know where you wrote that down.

18 A. I cannot remember exactly. But the counter readings were more of

19 an internal nature; they were used internally. Sometimes when important

20 information was taped, then, together with the tape, it would be forwarded

21 to the higher command.

22 Q. When you say that the counters were of an internal nature, can you

23 explain what you really mean?

24 A. When we tape several conversations consecutively in one shift or

25 one working hours and we listen to the tape and transcribe it into the

Page 4632

1 notebook, in order to be able to find the beginning of a conversation,

2 these readings were noted down.

3 Q. If I understand you correctly, when you say "internally," you mean

4 for your own use; is that what you mean?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I should like to draw your attention to page 5 of your statement,

7 paragraph 6; in the English version, page 5, paragraph 5.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In your statement to the investigators of the Tribunal, you stated

10 that the notebooks were merely internal working documents; is that

11 correct? Bearing in mind your previous answer and your explanation of the

12 word "internal," does that mean that these notebooks also were designed to

13 be used internally, only within the framework of your group, your group of

14 operators?

15 A. The notebooks were mostly a means to transcribe information from

16 the tape to the operator who would encrypt the information and forward it

17 to the higher command.

18 Q. Were they still only for internal use; is that correct?

19 A. As far as I know, we used them for that purpose, and I have no

20 knowledge as to whether anyone used those notebooks as a source of

21 information.

22 Q. Thank you. While you were working on encryption, your main job

23 was to copy out the text from the notebook; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you change or amend the text in the notebook in any way?

Page 4633

1 A. Usually not.

2 Q. Did you nevertheless sometimes make some changes; is that correct?

3 A. On my own initiative, no; but, if there was something illogical or

4 not clear, I would call the operator who had intercepted the conversation

5 and noted it down in the notebook to explain it to me. And if when we

6 discussed it, and possibly relistened to the tape, discovered some errors,

7 then corrections were made. But in most cases, this may have been a very

8 specific piece of information, like a name or a number or a date,

9 something concrete.

10 Q. Were these corrections noted anywhere?

11 A. In most cases, no.

12 Q. When you say that you didn't do that on your own initiative, who

13 was the person who gave you permission to do that?

14 A. Maybe I didn't express myself properly when I said that I didn't

15 do it on my own initiative. What I meant was that I didn't enter any

16 changes, but what I meant to say was that I didn't make up anything, but

17 that I often took the initiative to check the contents of the

18 transcription in the notebook with the tape recording, and then to

19 establish if there is an error, I would make that correction in the

20 document which was later encrypted and forwarded on.

21 Q. You said that you frequently took the initiative?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In view of your prior education, educational background, were you

24 perhaps better trained than the others, your associates in the group?

25 A. I wouldn't agree with that.

Page 4634

1 Q. Were you all equally well-trained for this job?

2 A. I couldn't agree with that, either.

3 Q. If it is the case that some were better trained than others, where

4 would you put yourself in that spectrum?

5 A. Perhaps closer to the top, but somewhere in the middle.

6 Q. In that connection, would you please look at page 4 of the

7 Serbo-Croatian version, last paragraph. It is the one-but-last paragraph

8 on page 4 of the English version.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You have stated that you learned to recognise the voices of senior

11 Serb commanders involved in the operation, including Zivanovic and Krstic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Both these men had voices with very distinctive characteristics

14 making them easily identifiable at the time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you explain to us which voice characteristics you had in mind

17 whereby General Krstic could be identifiable in the conversations?

18 A. All I can say is that when you listen to somebody's voice for a

19 couple of hours a day over a period of several months, it is not difficult

20 to recognise it.

21 Q. But you cannot describe to me any distinctive characteristic of

22 General Krstic's or General Zivanovic?

23 A. After so much time, I cannot.

24 Q. You said that you would listen to somebody's voice several hours a

25 day?

Page 4635

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Over a period of several months, you said, and that is why you

3 recognised them. May I take it, then, that General Krstic spent several

4 hours on the telephone that you were listening to?

5 A. No, but I would listen to the tapes later on.

6 Q. Also in this same paragraph you stated -- no, I withdraw that

7 question.

8 Can you remember what the intensity of radio communication was at

9 the time of the attack on Srebrenica?

10 A. The intensity was above average.

11 Q. Does that explain your statement that, "When the attack on

12 Srebrenica was at its peak, it was not unusual for me to work for over 18

13 hours a day"?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, as we can see from the documents, you worked both as an

16 operator and as the person in charge of encryption?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That is, the person who is forwarding the messages to the command?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. What were your working conditions in those days? Did you have

21 sufficient room in the room you worked in? Did you have sufficient

22 space?

23 A. For me, it was sufficient. Perhaps the conditions were not

24 something special, particularly good, but it was possible to work.

25 Q. On the last page of this statement to the Prosecution there are

Page 4636

1 several drawings. I don't want to tire you with those, but I have a

2 question for you. The members of your unit were accommodated in the same

3 building throughout their shift, were they?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many rooms in that facility did you use?

6 A. As far as I can remember, four or five.

7 Q. Could you please describe to us whether all those rooms were

8 dedicated to interception or were used for other purposes?

9 A. They had -- they were used for other purposes.

10 Q. Was one of those rooms designated as a sleeping room?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you have a kitchen of your own?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Attached to the kitchen, did you have a dining room or a living

15 room?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you had an 18-hour shift, did you have lunch breaks?

18 A. Breaks were made, yes.

19 Q. Would it frequently happen for someone to bring you some food or a

20 coffee while you were at your workplace, or a drink of some sort?

21 A. Coffee, yes.

22 Q. In the room in which you were working where the equipment was

23 installed, was smoking allowed?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there many of your colleagues who smoked in that room?

Page 4637

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In that room, I'm only interested in that particular room, how did

3 you maintain hygiene in that room? Was there any kind of assignment for

4 that?

5 A. I don't think so.

6 Q. I think that in one of your statements, or maybe one of your

7 colleagues had said that the night shift would start about midnight and go

8 on until the morning?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And during the night there was very little communication; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. In that case, were you allowed to bring books to the room you

14 worked in to do crossword puzzles or something like that to make the time

15 go by more quickly?

16 A. I did not.

17 Q. Do you know whether one of your colleagues may have done?

18 A. I cannot remember.

19 Q. Thank you. On page 4, paragraph 7 of your statement, you said

20 that you have no recollection of any other military units performing

21 intercept duties at Okresanica during this period; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Apart from the State Security Service.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In addition to your unit, were there any other units at that

Page 4638

1 facility?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On that same page, you were asked whether two individuals who

4 worked at Okresanica could tape the same conversation. Could they?

5 A. This possibility did exist, that is to say, for two people to

6 monitor the same conversation, but not within the frameworks of the same

7 unit because that would be a waste of time.

8 Q. Do you happen to know whether anybody else monitored and took down

9 the same conversation that your unit did?

10 A. No, there was nobody else.

11 Q. No, I mean do you know now?

12 A. Now I do know, yes.

13 Q. How did you learn about this?

14 A. On the basis of documents, when I worked with the Prosecution.

15 Q. Which documents? Can you explain to me?

16 A. Well, some of my writing that I recognise, my handwriting, this

17 was compared to the text, a typed text which I was not able to recognise

18 as being the text done by my unit. And the texts dealt with the same

19 conversation, more or less.

20 Q. Does that mean that you were shown a text which represented the

21 same conversation monitored by your unit, taped by your unit, and you

22 recognised that this was not taped by your unit? Did I understand you

23 correctly? Did you mean that?

24 A. The conversation that I was shown in the form of a typed document,

25 I was not sure whether our unit had taped it in view of the format, the

Page 4639

1 form.

2 Q. But later on you ascertained that it was not your unit that taped

3 it.

4 A. Well, we didn't spend too much time on that.

5 Q. How do you know, then, that that conversation was taped at

6 Okresanica, that other conversation?

7 A. Well, I don't know that it was taped at Okresanica.

8 Q. That other conversation that you were shown, was it a typewritten

9 text or a handwritten text?

10 A. No, it was a typewritten text.

11 Q. How were you able to recognise that the typewritten text was not

12 one done by your unit?

13 A. Well, it is difficult for me to say anything specific on this

14 typed document. I remember the form of the document and how I typed it,

15 and that text did not have that form, the form which I used.

16 Q. Was one of the elements of form the signature?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I should like to call upon the usher

19 to show the witness document 395C -- 359C.

20 Q. Asked by the Prosecution, you said you recognised the

21 conversations intercepted at 1200 and 1210 hours.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. However, the previous conversation does not have a signature. Was

24 the previous conversation intercepted by your unit too?

25 A. It's difficult for me to say anything specific.

Page 4640

1 Q. On each telegram that was sent out from your unit during this

2 period, was there the type of signature that we find on the document of

3 1200 and 1210 hours?

4 A. I always signed the documents.

5 Q. Did you do this on your own or did you have instructions to do so?

6 A. I had instructions.

7 Q. Does that mean that the people that took your place at the

8 cryptoprotection task had the same instructions?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know from the material and documents that you looked

11 through in preparation for your testimony whether there were telegrams

12 where this other person signed themselves?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How many cryptoprotection operators worked in a shift?

15 A. One, sometimes two.

16 Q. For the period that we are interested in, the battle for

17 Srebrenica, I can conclude, therefore, that there were two; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that both these people had instructions to sign their names to

21 the telegrams; is that correct?

22 A. As far as I know, yes.

23 Q. Is it possible that a third person could send a telegram from

24 your work post?

25 A. No.

Page 4641

1 Q. Thank you. We have 359B, document 359B.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I know that it will

4 be difficult for you to follow because the copy is in B/C/S, but they are

5 the last words of a conversation at 1200 hours.

6 Q. The last sentence means, "They now have over 50 buses ensured."

7 Have I read this out correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is the text that you took down from the tape. No, I

10 apologise. This is the text that you taped as the operator; is that

11 correct?

12 A. This text is a description in summary form of what was taped. It

13 is a summary of the taped conversation; that is to say, it contains just

14 the information that was interesting from the conversation, interesting

15 for the higher command, that is to say, the facts, numbers, names, and

16 things of that kind.

17 Q. The words "over 50 buses" are in inverted commas.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the English version, this does not exist, and I assume that it

20 does not exist in the French version either.

21 MR. HARMON: May I point out something to Your Honours and to my

22 colleague. It appears, from looking at this, that I might be able to shed

23 some light on this.

24 The English translation of the conversation in handwriting, at the

25 bottom of the English translation there is a number, and you will see

Page 4642

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15

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Page 4643

1 "00727609" at the bottom of the English translation. That means that

2 this document has been translated from the typewritten text that is found

3 attached, 359C, because the number "00727609" appears on the typewritten

4 text. So in creating this exhibit, unfortunately I now see that this

5 translation, which is -- the English translation should be the English

6 translation from the typewritten text, and that is the reason why there

7 are no quotation marks. The English translation from the handwritten text

8 apparently is not attached to this document. I hope that clarifies the

9 issue.

10 One can also see, Mr. President and Your Honours, that there are

11 some initials that appear on the English translation, on 359A. Those

12 initials also appear on 359C. So what has happened, and I inform my

13 colleague of this, what has happened is that this English translation

14 should be the English translation from the typewritten text and not the

15 handwritten text.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps, Mr. Harmon and

17 Mr. Visnjic, we could add that the French translation of Exhibit 359D, it

18 says, "plus de 50 autocars" in inverted commas, "more than 50 buses."

19 Perhaps that could be of use to you.

20 MR. HARMON: So apparently in managing all of this paper, there

21 has something that has been melange in the wrong order.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Mr. Harmon.

24 Mr. Visnjic, bearing in mind that at least seven translators have

25 seen the inverted commas of the B/C/S, please go ahead with your

Page 4644

1 question.

2 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'll withdraw the

3 question because I did not notice what Mr. Harmon has just brought to my

4 attention. That is the first point. Secondly, I would like to object to

5 the English version of Exhibit 359A.

6 Also I should like to take advantage of this occasion to inform

7 the Trial Chamber that during the next break we shall be handing to the

8 registrar our comments with respect to all the exhibits as far as

9 translation is concerned. Those comments and objections have been marked,

10 and I don't wish to lose time now, but the Registrar will have a chance to

11 respond to those comments over the next few days.

12 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, in respect of my colleague's

13 objection, we will reorganise this exhibit in the proper way and we will

14 resubmit it.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Visnjic, having

16 heard that, are you able -- are you in a position to continue now?

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

18 Q. Witness BB, tell me, please, the notebooks that you used, before

19 you received them for use, did they have any special markings of any

20 kind?

21 A. As far as I recollect, yes.

22 Q. What were those markings, but just briefly? How were they

23 marked?

24 A. They were entered into the register, and the registration number

25 existed on them.

Page 4645

1 Q. Were the pages numbered?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. I should like to ask the usher to show you 283, that is to say,

4 you already have this document, and it's page 836 of that document.

5 On page 837 you have a number, number 46 in the upper right-hand

6 corner. Underneath that number there are the initials "WE"?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know whose those initials are?

9 A. I can't remember.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that this is a protected

11 witness, is it not, Mr. Visnjic?

12 Excuse me, Mr. Harmon can perhaps add something to that.

13 MR. HARMON: I have been informed that when the original documents

14 were received, somebody in the Evidence Unit did not know they could not

15 put initials on these documents, could not put any writing at all. So

16 I've been informed that this number, 46 WE, is a notation that was

17 inserted by a member of the Evidence Unit that received the document; it's

18 not made by anybody from the Bosnian government. The person who made this

19 notation was subsequently informed or informed during the process that

20 that was not to be done and ceased doing that.

21 So this notation was inserted by a member of the Evidence Unit

22 that received this document. It is an error in procedure, and it was

23 corrected.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, the secret has been

25 uncovered.

Page 4646

1 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I should like to express my

2 gratitude to Mr. Harmon for clearing that up.

3 The next question relates to the conversation also described in

4 Exhibit 283 on page 847.

5 MR. HARMON: Excuse me to interrupt you once again, Mr. Visnjic,

6 but just so the record is clear, Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, there's a

7 notation found on the third page of that. There's a note for the file

8 that has been inserted in Prosecutor's 283, and you will see that the

9 explanation that I have given is entered in that particular note. This

10 was a member of the Tribunal that made that notation, and the explanation

11 has been included in the exhibit.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

13 Mr. Harmon.

14 Mr. Visnjic, please continue. Continue to the end, if you

15 please.

16 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. On page 847, that is to say, the conversation at 1945 hours was

18 recorded, at the beginning of that conversation you wrote, "X calling from

19 General Krstic"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell me how you deduced this; that is to say, how you knew

22 that the call was from General Krstic?

23 A. That first sentence is in fact a description. I heard that part of

24 the conversation where that unknown person, that is to say "X", Individual

25 "X", said that he was calling from General Krstic, and had I not heard

Page 4647

1 that, I wouldn't have been able to ascertain that.

2 Q. Do you remember that, or do you only assume and suppose that that

3 is what it was?

4 A. I assume because that is a piece of information. It is a piece of

5 data to go by which was essential for our army, and I would not have

6 changed it quite certainly. Neither would I have thought it up.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we move into

8 closed session for a few minutes?

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, private session, we're

10 moving into private session for a few moments.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4648

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10

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13 page 4648 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

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20

21

22

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25

Page 4649

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're in public session now.

13 You may continue, Mr. Visnjic.

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. We're talking about Exhibit 354C, 1C, the telegram from the

16 identical notebook and to facilitate the reading. This telegram was sent

17 by you, and it was a conversation you intercepted; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell me how you identified person "X"?

20 A. He introduced himself.

21 Q. That can be seen from the text in front of us; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is the addition and special which is here in brackets mean?

24 A. I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that question.

25 Q. Did you write that down? Can you tell us that?

Page 4650

1 A. Probably I did.

2 Q. Thank you. Will you please tell me when people were conversing on

3 such lines, were they open lines?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the interlocutors mostly knew that you were listening in; is

6 that correct?

7 A. That is just my assumption, that they could have known.

8 Q. Is that why they used coded names, code names?

9 Thank you to the interpreter.

10 A. It is a rule in the army to use those code names.

11 Q. Did the speakers sometimes identify themselves by the names of

12 their units?

13 A. I cannot remember.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. VISNJIC: Could I ask the usher to show you Exhibits 359 and

16 360. I apologise, I'm talking about 360 and 361, not 359.

17 Q. Witness BB, Exhibit 360 is a conversation sent from your unit; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you in any way take part in the recording and sending of this

21 conversation?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 MR. VISNJIC: Mr. Usher, would you please show the witness Exhibit

24 361. Just a moment, please.

25 Q. It's a conversation or a telegram sent by your unit. Exhibit

Page 4651

1 361B, a telegram sent from your unit with no signature of the person

2 receiving or sending the message; is that correct?

3 A. No, I can't see that.

4 Q. But you have still identified this telegram as a telegram

5 coming from your unit.

6 A. I apologise. I do see the signature and I do identify the

7 telegram sent from my unit.

8 Q. Exhibit 362 is, again, a telegram sent from your unit, is it

9 not?

10 A. Just a moment, please. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell me whether these conversations were noted down in the

12 notebook?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you identify the notebook in which these conversations were

15 noted, written down?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, perhaps you are

17 demanding from the witness to have an extremely good memory. I don't know

18 whether the witness can answer that, but we'll listen anyway.

19 A. In any event, I would need time to look through all the notebooks,

20 to compare them. But it is a fact that whatever I encrypted was typed

21 from the notebook.

22 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let me put it this way: Was the date, an indication of date,

24 compulsory on all telegrams?

25 A. Yes. I'm sorry, not on all telegrams, but all documents that I

Page 4652

1 sent. So there may have been several conversations in one document which

2 would be dated, encrypted, and sent, forwarded.

3 Q. But all those conversations were not noted down in a single

4 notebook.

5 A. No.

6 Q. According to your recollection, how many notebooks were in

7 circulation during one shift usually?

8 A. In any event, we had several notebooks. At least three.

9 Sometimes when I was working on the encryption, a document that had a

10 header and a date and was encrypted would contain the contents of a

11 conversation from one notebook but sometimes also from several notebooks.

12 Q. In view of the fact -- when these messages were forwarded, can you

13 check whether they perhaps figure in Exhibit 283 that you have before you?

14 A. In any event, I would need a lot of time. I would have to look

15 through it all, because in the typed document, there is no date on the

16 typed document.

17 MR. HARMON: Perhaps I can assist my colleague and the Court in

18 respect of Prosecutor's Exhibit 26 -- I'm sorry, 362. The handwritten

19 version of that conversation that counsel has been asking this witness

20 about is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, at page 850. So perhaps the

21 usher could direct the witness to that as well.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, the Prosecutor has

23 assisted you to find the document, so please go on to your question.

24 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question was

25 whether the witness could identify, and as we have identified the exhibit,

Page 4653

1 the Prosecutor has already answered my question so I can go on to my next

2 question. And I'll be closing my cross-examination very soon.

3 Q. Witness BB, during your interview with the investigators of the

4 Tribunal conducted on the 12th and 13th of May, 1999, were you shown a

5 notebook marked 160 -- 106, 106, I'm sorry.

6 A. I was shown a notebook, but I don't remember how it was marked.

7 Q. Would you please turn to page 5 of your statement to the

8 investigators of the Tribunal.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the conversation has

10 not been separately marked but it takes up almost a whole page. But I

11 would like to ask the witness something about it.

12 Q. So notebook number 106, which contains the conversation between

13 General Krstic and a certain Obrenovic, transcribed at 0950 hours, did you

14 see that notebook when you spoke to the investigator of the Tribunal?

15 A. I saw the notebook, I had it in my hands, I leafed through it, but

16 I really do not remember whether it was this particular notebook, number

17 106.

18 Q. Is that notebook among the exhibits shown to you by the Prosecutor

19 today, or while you were preparing to testify?

20 A. I have to apologise, but in 1999 when I was interrogated, I was

21 shown the original notebook. And when being interviewed here the other

22 day, I was shown copies and we mostly focused on some particular pages.

23 So the difference between 1999, when I had the notebook as a whole in my

24 hand which I looked through, and what I did a couple of days ago, when I

25 saw only some pages, so I cannot tell you exactly whether anything was

Page 4654

1 shown to me from that particular notebook a couple of days ago.

2 Q. Were you shown the conversation between General Krstic and

3 Obrenovic, transcribed at 0950, or rather taped at 0950?

4 A. Probably, but I don't remember the details of that conversation.

5 Q. Was it shown to you or not?

6 A. I cannot give you a precise answer to that question. I just

7 don't -- I don't remember.

8 Q. But in 1999, you remembered the conversation conducted in 1995; is

9 that correct?

10 A. At the time, they played me the tape of a conversation which I

11 remembered. Whether that was that particular conversation, I really don't

12 remember.

13 Q. Was a tape played for you now?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The conversation that you were able to recollect in 1999 was

16 distinctive in some way, was it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What made it distinctive?

19 A. It was distinctive for me because of a joke that was a component

20 part of that conversation, and I laughed at the joke even in 1995, and

21 again in 1999.

22 Q. Can it be concluded from that conversation that it coincided in

23 time with the conflicts over Srebrenica?

24 A. On the basis of what I remember of that conversation, that part of

25 the conversation which sounded to me like a kind of joke, it is hard to

Page 4655

1 make any such conclusions or anything with any precision.

2 Q. Were the dates noted in that notebook?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you remember by the dates when that conversation could have

5 been conducted?

6 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I'm going to object to this line of

7 questioning. This is not a conversation that has been presented in court

8 through this witness, and therefore asking him about a conversation that

9 is not an exhibit is beyond the scope of the examination, and we would

10 therefore object.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic, what is your

12 response?

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is our intention

14 to tender into evidence the conversation that the witness -- the interview

15 the witness had with the investigators, where mention is made of a

16 specific notebook and a specific document. I was not able to find that

17 document in the exhibits tendered by the Prosecutor. In fact, in that

18 interview an audiotape is mentioned. I just wish to learn from the

19 witness more so as to be able to -- that may help us in our investigation

20 regarding these two exhibits.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon.

22 MR. HARMON: We have neither tendered the tape nor the notebook,

23 and that is the point of my objection.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. So Mr. Visnjic, what do

25 you have to say? Mr. Visnjic, the cross-examination must be limited by

Page 4656

1 the examination-in-chief. You may use this statement to call in question

2 the credibility of the witness, to impeach the witness, but not beyond

3 that. You cannot go to the substance. Therefore, go on to another

4 question, Mr. Visnjic.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know whether

7 my next question is permissible in that context, but let me put it to the

8 witness and it's up to you to decide. I'm not quite sure now. So may I

9 have your permission to put it to the witness?

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness BB, did you hear the audio recording with General Krstic's

13 voice on it and which is linked to the talk, conversation?

14 A. (redacted).

15 MR. HARMON: Same objection. I have the same objection,

16 Mr. President. Unfortunately when counsel gets an opportunity to ask the

17 question, the witness will answer before the translation occurs. I now

18 would ask the Court to restrict the questioning to the subject of the

19 exhibits that are before it and not permit any additional questions in

20 respect of exhibits that have not yet been tendered into evidence.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. It is true that

22 Mr. Visnjic asked whether he would be allowed to ask the question, but the

23 witness was very quick to answer the question.

24 In any event, we have here two aspects to the tape; one is whether

25 the witness listened to the tape to transcribe it, and that is an object

Page 4657

1 of cross-examination, and the other question are the other tapes that have

2 not been tendered here. So you must make this distinction, Mr. Visnjic.

3 If you are talking about exhibits tendered here, it is all right. But if

4 the witness gave an answer which has to do with tapes that were not used

5 here in the courtroom, then it will have to be redacted, the answer will

6 have to be deleted.

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in that case, I have

8 no further questions for this witness. That ends my cross-examination.

9 Thank you, Witness BB.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Visnjic.

11 Mr. Harmon, do you have any re-examination? Let's try and finish

12 with this witness before the break.

13 MR. HARMON: I do have some questions. Thank you.

14 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:

15 Q. Let me start in reverse order, Witness BB.

16 MR. HARMON: If the usher could assist me, please.

17 Q. Witness BB, you were asked to comment on Prosecutor's Exhibit

18 362.

19 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would place 362/B in front of the

20 witness, the typewritten conversation of the tape. And if you would place

21 Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, page 850, in front of the witness.

22 Q. Now, on page 850 of Prosecutor's Exhibit 283, do you see your name

23 written at the bottom of that particular conversation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, turning to Prosecutor's Exhibit 362/B, do you see that same

Page 4658

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

14 and English transcripts.

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4659

1 conversation in typewritten form?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are your initials the first of the two sets of initials that

4 appear in the typewritten form of this conversation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does the presence of your name in Prosecutor's 283, at page 850,

7 and the presence of your initials in Prosecutor's Exhibit 362/B confirm

8 that you are the person who transmitted and encrypted this conversation?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 361, please.

11 Mr. Usher, could you place the exhibit in front of the witness.

12 Q. On this particular page, Witness BB, on the last page, page

13 numbered 602 in the evidence registration number, there are two sets of

14 initials. Do you see your initials on this particular page?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And does that mean, based on the location of those initials, that

17 you were the person who intercepted this particular conversation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, if you turn to the next page, please, the same exhibit, where

20 there are other initials on this, do you see -- and I'm referring to

21 Prosecutor's Exhibit 361 -- the page number that has 00727603 on it, above

22 that 603 number do you see two initials, two sets of initials?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In your direct examination, you testified you recognised those as

25 being the initials from people who worked in your unit; is that correct?

Page 4660

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. HARMON: Could we go into private session very briefly for one

3 question, Mr. President?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's go into private session,

5 please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4661

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are in open session,

24 Mr. Harmon. You may continue and wind things up, please.

25 MR. HARMON:

Page 4662

1 Q. Witness BB, you were asked a number of questions about the

2 readings on the tape recorder and where they were recorded, and you

3 testified that that was an internal procedure to record the numbers, the

4 counter number for the tape.

5 Was the purpose of recording the counter number where the tape --

6 where the conversation was found on the tape so you could quickly return

7 to the exact conversation, and it could be transcribed? Was that the

8 purpose of recording the counter number?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you were asked a series of questions by my colleague that

11 related to this topic, that related to the transcriptions that were made

12 while you were the person who was encrypting and transcribing the

13 conversations.

14 You testified that you never made a change, after reading a

15 notebook, made a change in the typewritten version on your own initiative;

16 is that correct? You would never alter what you saw in the piece of paper

17 in the notebook when you were typing it into the encoded version, on your

18 own initiative?

19 A. I wouldn't alter it ever.

20 Q. The only time you would alter a conversation was after you asked

21 that the conversation be listened to again, and if there was an error

22 noted, you would then enter the change into the typewritten version; am I

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, you were shown a copy of your statement, and I'm referring to

Page 4663

1 D21 on page 4 of the English version. You were asked questions about

2 whether or not two people at the same location could intercept the same

3 conversation. I want to ask you a slightly different variation on that

4 question. Is it possible that two people at different locations could

5 intercept the same conversation?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Witness BB. Thank

8 you very much.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Mr. Harmon. Judge Fouad Riad.

11 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness BB. Can you hear me?

14 A. Good morning. Yes.

15 JUDGE RIAD: I have a few questions just to clarify your

16 testimony. In one of the questions asked by the Defence counsel,

17 Mr. Visnjic, which was related to your recognition of the voice of General

18 Krstic, he asked you when you listened for a couple of hours a day, can

19 you recognise the voice. And your answer was that as far as Krstic was

20 concerned, you were familiar with his voice because you could listen to

21 the tapes later on. That means that -- did you mean by that that there

22 were many tapes collected from messages by General Krstic in that period

23 in particular?

24 A. There were many tapes with messages by General Krstic on them.

25 JUDGE RIAD: You were stationed in Okresanica and Konjuh from May

Page 4664

1 1995, so these tapes would be starting in May 1995 and going on till when,

2 if you remember?

3 A. I can't remember exactly until when, that is to say, when the last

4 conversation of General Krstic was intercepted; but up until the end of

5 the war, the unit functioned. It did the same things it did in July 1995.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Referring to the last conversation of General Krstic,

7 it was on 13th of July. It is rather strange because many of his words

8 were in dots. If you look at the conversation, the interlocutor, the

9 other one speaking, was very clearly noted, but General Krstic was in dots

10 four times or five times. Was his voice, in spite of that, was it clear

11 in your opinion? Could you affirm that it was Krstic?

12 A. Usually, yes. But it -- what could happen was that audibility was

13 very bad, and then I wasn't able to recognise the voice.

14 JUDGE RIAD: So he announced -- I mean, how did you then note that

15 it was Krstic?

16 A. I personally usually did not rely on recognising the voice but

17 only the information which I heard or recorded on tape. In some cases,

18 with respect to recognition of the voice itself, I would ask assistance

19 from a colleague, although I should like to mention once again that I

20 personally avoided identification by relying on the voice.

21 So that this piece of -- the piece of information that I wrote

22 down was probably from another source, had another source. That is to

23 say, that when a connection was established, and at the very start of the

24 conversation, the tape recorder was not switched on straight away, but I

25 heard the name; and on the basis of what I heard, I was able to note what

Page 4665

1 I noted.

2 JUDGE RIAD: So you're sure it was from Krstic? That's my

3 question. It was verified.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Now, another instance you said that the call was from

6 General Krstic, "X" is calling from General Krstic. Do you have any means

7 to know the source of the call? If somebody says, "I'm calling from

8 'somewhere'", could you check it?

9 A. No.

10 JUDGE RIAD: So you take it for granted what he says, you

11 accept -- you take it as a very basic fact?

12 A. Yes, although we worked with directed antennae, and so we could

13 speak about just one fact; the direction the signal is coming from. And

14 from that location, we had no more precise data than that.

15 JUDGE RIAD: So you could know the direction, how accurate can

16 that be?

17 A. A 10 to 15 per cent error. Fairly accurate.

18 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

20 Riad. Madam Judge Wald.

21 JUDGE WALD: Witness BB, you tell us that there were many tapes

22 with General Krstic's voice on it that you remember from around this

23 time. You remember there were many from around this time, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE WALD: And would you have taken down in the notebook and

Page 4666

1 later transmitted/transcribed every conversation in which General Krstic

2 was a participant because of who he was, because of his ranking as

3 commander of the corps? I mean, would you automatically have taken down

4 in the notebook and later transcribed any conversation that you recognised

5 as having his voice in it?

6 A. No. Some conversations of high officials of the army of Republika

7 Srpska I remember were marked on tape, but I can't give you any more

8 precise information than that.

9 JUDGE WALD: Well, let me ask it another way. If you were

10 monitoring and you heard his voice come on and you recognised his voice,

11 would you later make a decision whether or not the conversation was worth

12 monitoring, or would you, because of who he was, have recorded the

13 conversation in your notebook?

14 A. That conversation, if it had any -- contained any information of

15 any kind, it would be recorded. But there were a lot of private

16 conversations as well which were just -- you know, family, friends, with

17 no information, then that wasn't taken note of.

18 JUDGE WALD: My last question is just a general one about your

19 general impression, not any specific conversation.

20 Is it your impression during this period, the Srebrenica period

21 that we're talking about, that you recorded conversations in which General

22 Krstic took part that you have not been asked to identify so far by the

23 Prosecution? I'm not asking about any specific ones, just whether or not

24 when you talked about there being many tapes with General Krstic's voice

25 on it, whether it is your memory or impression that there were

Page 4667

1 conversations you listened to, recorded, in which he took a part, which we

2 don't have before us today so far, which you have not been asked to

3 identify by the Prosecution?

4 A. I had occasion to listen to a copy of a tape in 1999 when I gave

5 my first statement for the Tribunal. I had occasion to hear just a

6 segment of a copy. I do not know what you have.

7 JUDGE WALD: No, I had only -- I wasn't asking you about that

8 particular conversation. I was simply trying to find out if whether or

9 not when -- during this period when you say you identified or you

10 recognised General Krstic's voice, and that there were many tapes with his

11 voice on it during this period, that's what you testified to, whether or

12 not it was your memory or impression that there were lots of conversations

13 recorded that we haven't talked about. I don't want to know about any

14 specific one, but that there were many that were not identified or

15 introduced into evidence, just your memory of whether or not that's true.

16 Yes, no, or I don't remember.

17 A. I don't remember.

18 JUDGE WALD: All right.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness BB, just one question.

20 We spoke about codes. You said that armies frequently used codes. Could

21 the word "Krstic" be a code, or was it a name corresponding to a person?

22 A. In this concrete case, it is my opinion that it was, in fact, a

23 name belonging to a person, denoting a person.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you know other surnames for

25 that same name?

Page 4668

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 Witness BB, you have completed your testimony here at the

4 Tribunal.

5 I think that we have some exhibits to regulate, and perhaps we

6 could do that rapidly. Exhibits 365 and 366 of the Prosecutor are to be

7 admitted under seal, and I think we also have a statement that Mr. Harmon

8 mentioned, 221 [sic], Defence Exhibit 221, and that is to be tendered and

9 admitted.

10 Mr. Harmon.

11 MR. HARMON: Yes. Then I would tender, subject to the Court's

12 previous ruling, of course, Prosecutor's Exhibit 340, 341, 342/1, 342/2,

13 343/1. We would ask that that be under seal because there is a name on

14 it. Exhibit 344/1. Exhibits 345/1 and 345/2, we would ask that both of

15 those be under seal because there are initials on it that could identify

16 witnesses and individuals. Exhibit 346/1. Exhibit 347/1, we'd ask that

17 that also be under seal; there is a name written on that particular

18 document. Then all of the remaining exhibits that I identify we're asking

19 to go under seal; that is, 354/1, 355/1, 359, 360, 361, and 362, all of

20 those under seal. And Your Honour has already mentioned 365 and 366 which

21 we're requesting go under seal. Thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic, I didn't mention

23 the other exhibits because we were within the frameworks of the Chamber's

24 ruling. What do you have to say to all these exhibits, Mr. Visnjic?

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with respect to

Page 4669

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Page 4670

1 Exhibits 365 and 366, the Defence has no objection to make, and the other

2 exhibits are encompassed by the previous ruling of the Trial Chamber.

3 We should like to tender Defence Exhibit 21. I see that in the

4 transcript it says "221," but it is Defence Exhibit number 21, in fact.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, you have not stated

6 your views with respect to D21, I think. We have yet to have your

7 response.

8 MR. HARMON: We have no objection as long as it's admitted under

9 seal.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Very well. Exhibits 365,

11 366, and D21 are admitted under seal, and the other exhibits mentioned

12 will await an opportune moment.

13 I apologise to my colleagues and everybody else. We seem to have

14 overstepped our time limit and have been working for more than two hours,

15 but very often we have to do this. We wanted to finish with this

16 witness. We have a voice distortion witness next, and so it would be a

17 good idea to have a break now. We're now going to have a half-hour break

18 and resume after that.

19 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming here. Please remain

20 seated for a little while yet. We wish you a safe journey back home and

21 every success in your work. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

23 --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 --- On resuming at 1.58 p.m.

Page 4671

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, can you hear me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, this microphone

4 needs to be repaired; I already told you that.

5 Witness W, you were here last week, but nevertheless you're going

6 to read the solemn declaration handed to you by the usher. Please stand

7 up.

8 [The witness stands]

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS W [Recalled]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated and make

14 yourself comfortable. You already know the procedure. Mr. Harmon has

15 some questions for you, and please answer them.

16 Mr. Harmon, your witness.

17 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much.

18 Examined by Mr. Harmon:

19 Q. Welcome back, Witness W.

20 MR. HARMON: With the usher's assistance, if I could have

21 Prosecutor's Exhibits 348 through 353, and Prosecutor's Exhibit 363 given

22 to the witness, we can go through this testimony very quickly.

23 Q. Witness W, last week when you testified, you testified about

24 procedures that were used by your service. We're not going to go back

25 into that. Let me just start by showing you Prosecutor's Exhibit 350.

Page 4672

1 MR. HARMON: If the B/C/S version could be place in front of the

2 witness, please.

3 Madam Registrar, have all of the exhibits I mentioned been

4 distributed?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

6 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

7 Q. Witness W, before you should be Prosecutor's Exhibit 350B which is

8 in B/C/S. Can you identify this particular document as being a

9 conversation that was recorded -- intercepted and recorded by your

10 service?

11 A. Yes, it is a document done by my service.

12 Q. In fact, if you turn to the second page of the B/C/S version of

13 this exhibit, you will notice two numbers at the bottom. Is this a

14 conversation that you personally intercepted?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. HARMON: If we could show the witness, please, Mr. Usher, 348,

17 349, 351, and 352, if you just place each of those exhibits in front of

18 him.

19 Q. Witness W, if you would take the first exhibit that's marked 348

20 and turn to the B/C/S version of that exhibit, can you identify if this is

21 a document that was intercepted and then recorded by your service?

22 A. Yes, it is a document prepared by us.

23 Q. Now, do you recognise at the end of that document two numbers that

24 appear on the end of a page that has an ERN number 00869277? Do you see

25 those two numbers?

Page 4673

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you recognise those as being the code numbers for members of

3 your organisation who were working with you?

4 A. Yes, precisely. These are the names of the people but, of course,

5 in code.

6 Q. Will you turn to the next exhibit, please, Prosecutor's Exhibit

7 349, and can you turn to the B/C/S version which is found at Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit 349B and turn to the last page. Let me ask you, one, is this a

9 conversation that was intercepted by your service?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do these code numbers relate to the individuals from your service

12 who captured this conversation and who transmitted this conversation?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 351B, please. If you look

15 at the bottom of Prosecutor's Exhibit 351B, you'll see the same numbers.

16 I ask you the same question: Is this a conversation that was captured by

17 members of your service, and do these two numbers at the bottom reflect

18 the identities of the individuals who were working with you who

19 intercepted the communication and who transmitted the communication?

20 A. Yes, the conversation was intercepted by my service and recorded

21 by these two operators whose code figures are at the end of the page.

22 Q. Let me turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 352B, please. Again, you'll

23 notice at the bottom of the page certain code numbers. Is this

24 conversation that is found in Prosecutor's Exhibit 352 -- actually, there

25 are two conversations in the B/C/S version and only one translated into

Page 4674

1 the English version -- are these conversations that were intercepted by

2 members of your unit and transcribed accordingly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How can you tell that?

5 A. I explained that last time, and I can do it again if necessary.

6 This is a document that has its registration number, its date.

7 It's registered in the book of records, and then the code of the operators

8 means that they intercepted, recorded and reproduced it. The first

9 sentence with which every conversation of ours begins --

10 Q. Thank you, Witness W. Let's turn to the next exhibit,

11 Prosecutor's Exhibit 353, if you turn to the B/C/S version of that. Is

12 this a document that contains conversations that were intercepted and

13 transcribed by members of your service on the 12th of July, 1995?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again, turning to the second page of the B/C/S translation, there

16 appear to be two numbers. Are these the code numbers for the individuals

17 who identified and transmitted the conversation?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Lastly, Witness W, I'd like to turn your attention to Prosecutor's

20 Exhibit 363. I would like you to examine the B/C/S version of that. At

21 the bottom, instead of code numbers you will see two names.

22 MR. HARMON: If we could go into private session, I would like to

23 ask the witness to identify the reason why there are names here and not

24 code numbers.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into private

Page 4675

1 session.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

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22 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4676

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2 (redacted)

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We are already in open session.

13 Mr. Petrusic.

14 Witness, you are now going to answer questions put to you by

15 Mr. Petrusic.

16 Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, my

18 learned friends from the Prosecution, and Witness W.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

20 Q. Witness W, if we go back to Exhibit 349B, usually in the header

21 there is the date, the registration number, the serial number, and the

22 sentence, "On the above-mentioned day, monitoring frequency so and so, at

23 1555 hours," and I will stop there.

24 You gave this conversation the number 537?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4677

1 Q. In the exhibit number 348B, again dated the 11th of July, 1995, we

2 have the number 534 and the customary introductory sentence: on that day,

3 following the pilot direction on 836 megahertz at 1610 hours. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. I can't answer with certainty whether that is correct. I would

6 have to consult the reception notebook to be able to answer that

7 question. I see that for the first time now.

8 Q. The next conversation, which carries the number 535, is on the

9 same frequency at 1623 hours on the same page.

10 A. Yes, I can see that.

11 Q. Is that correct?

12 A. Are you asking me whether the time is correct, when the

13 conversation took place?

14 Q. Is it correct that it is number 535, and is it correct that the

15 time is 1623 hours?

16 A. I think that is correct, but the person who typed in may have made

17 a mistake, instead of 15, putting 16 hours. That may an error.

18 Q. And the next ordinal number, 536, is that the right number?

19 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.

20 Q. Is the next ordinal number 536?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the time, 20 minutes after 1623 hours?

23 A. Yes, but let me try and explain. This is one file which has a

24 certain sequence, and you can see everything that is recorded; it has a

25 certain chronology. And this last conversation, after the last

Page 4678

1 conversation it is said 20 minutes after the previous conversation. So

2 one file with three conversations one after another, and I don't see any

3 problems with that.

4 Q. The numbers, do they correspond to the times when the

5 conversations were intercepted?

6 A. Mostly, yes. They should be linked to the time, but if they

7 occurred at the same time on two sets, because we have spoken about three

8 different sets of equipment, then the number may cause a problem, a little

9 problem, so the time was indicated on both.

10 Q. Witness W, if we compare these two exhibits 349/B and 348/B, in

11 349/B we will see the time written in as 1555 hours, and the ordinal

12 number is 537?

13 A. I can see that. Just a moment please.

14 Q. In Exhibit 348/B, we see the time indicated as 1610 hours, and the

15 ordinal number 534, so a lower number in relation to the time, in relation

16 to the time indicated for these two conversations. Do you agree with me?

17 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

18 Q. This conversation intercepted at 1555 hours, would it logically

19 have to come before the conversation bearing the number 534?

20 A. Logically, yes. Indeed, it should come after 535, 536, because as

21 I said, it is possible that the person who was typing, instead of 16,

22 having written 15 hours. It's possible.

23 Q. When you said at the same time, you meant the transcription of the

24 conversation?

25 A. I can't remember what I was referring to when I said "the same

Page 4679

1 time". Let me clear this up a little, if I may. In view of the fact that

2 this is the same frequency -- just a moment, please.

3 So, yes, it is the same frequency, the conversations were recorded

4 on the same set, and the only thing that could have happened is a mistake

5 in the time, the person who was typing, because from -- to judge by

6 everything else, that is the only mistake. Because the conversation was

7 taken down on a single frequency, what I mentioned a moment ago is not

8 possible; in other words, there may have been a simultaneous conversation

9 on another set of equipment. I withdraw that as I see it is the same

10 frequency.

11 I can't remember now, of course, because so much was happening at

12 the time and so much time has gone by for me to be able to give you a

13 precise answer.

14 Q. So you will agree with me that the sequence of numbers does not

15 correspond to the times?

16 A. It is throughout, except for this one report.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, tell me, of course if you can, how did you

18 determine the ordinal number? How did you give these documents numbers?

19 A. Of course I can. Every subsequent number would be given the next

20 number in turn.

21 Q. Did it start at Okresanica with 001?

22 A. I'd rather not talk about that.

23 Q. Is that a secret? Is that why you don't want to talk about it?

24 A. We could have started with number 444, for instance, or I think

25 that this is a question that is a sensitive one, and I would not like to

Page 4680

1 answer it.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would suggest we

3 go into private session so I can ask the witness the same question.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let's go into private session,

5 yes, for the witness to be able to answer.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

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Page 4681

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Page 4683

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see that we are in open

7 session.

8 Mr. Petrusic, you may continue, bearing in mind that it is almost

9 half past two.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am watching the clock. I

11 will certainly finish by half past two.

12 Q. Witness W, was it feasible for two reports to be sent under the

13 same number?

14 A. It could happen only in the case of an error being made.

15 Q. And finally, Exhibit 354/1C --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

18 Q. Witness W, you said that your report, under number 611, was taken

19 over from the PEB of the 2nd Corps.

20 A. I am not saying that our report was taken from the PEB of the 2nd

21 Corps but that the report of the 2nd Corps was taken over. It is their

22 report.

23 Q. Exhibit 354/1C, is it a telegram sent by your service?

24 A. Yes. It was taken over from the PEB of the 2nd Corps and

25 forwarded to my service.

Page 4684

1 Q. Did your service receive it on the 13th of July?

2 A. I believe it did, but there are records of that.

3 Q. Do you know when that conversation was transcribed by the

4 operator?

5 A. From the report, I know nothing more than you do.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness W.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

8 questions for this witness.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

10 Mr. Petrusic.

11 Mr. Harmon, do you have any re-examination?

12 MR. HARMON: I do not, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 Judge Fouad Riad, no?

15 Judge Wald?

16 Witness, thank you very much for coming here once again. We have

17 no further questions. We wish to renew our wishes for a safe journey home

18 and success in your work.

19 We're going to adjourn for today.

20 Mr. Harmon, yes?

21 MR. HARMON: In terms of the exhibits that have been tendered by

22 this witness, I would offer them into evidence, and those are Exhibits 348

23 through Prosecutor's Exhibit 353, and I would ask that Prosecutor's

24 Exhibit 363 be placed under seal because the names at the end of the B/C/S

25 version identify certain individuals.

Page 4685

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, you will take

2 note of this because that fits within the ruling of this Chamber, and we

3 will have to decide all these things together.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. May I please also take this chance to make a

5 correction. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

9 MR. HARMON: Perhaps we could go into a closed session.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] -- this is a question for a closed

11 session.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic.

13 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

14 MR. HARMON: Perhaps the witness should be escorted out before we

15 deal with the closed-session comments of counsel.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Can we

17 separate these things, because the Chamber has other engagements. If we

18 can deal with this matter tomorrow, we will do so. No, Mr. Harmon?

19 MR. HARMON: If we could go into closed session now or private

20 session, then I can at least allude to the reasons why we wish to address

21 the Court and why the witness should be released before we do this.

22 [Open session]

23 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic.

25 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise. Perhaps

Page 4686

1 we can deal with that straight away, because the question is the number of

2 exhibits of the Defence.

3 Due to our mistake, Exhibit D21 was tendered under 21; however,

4 there's another exhibit with that number already. So this is just for the

5 record, the exhibit which is the statement of the previous witness is D22,

6 and that should be sufficient. Tomorrow, before we begin our regular

7 hearing, we can explain the reasons at a closed session.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 Mr. Harmon, the reasons for your intervention, do they still have

10 anything to do with the presence of this witness or not, or can we deal

11 with that matter tomorrow?

12 MR. HARMON: I don't want to insist on this, Mr. President, but

13 there were certain issues that were discussed with this Chamber at a

14 different time that are extremely sensitive, and it's very difficult to

15 talk restricted in this way to identify what the problem is. I'm

16 reluctant to do that in the presence of this witness. On the other hand,

17 I don't think it can wait until tomorrow. It should take but a minute or

18 two once the witness is excused.

19 I could send a note to the Court and I can explain it. Perhaps

20 that's the easiest way to do it.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps that would be the best

22 solution, because I know that we have other meetings and we have to finish

23 at 2.30.

24 So if the question that you have to address, Mr. Harmon, has

25 nothing to do with the witness, the witness -- we can leave before the

Page 4687

1 witness. Otherwise, as you know, the blinds have to be pulled down for

2 the witness to leave. This is for practical reasons. Are you going to

3 give us a note, then, in writing?

4 MR. HARMON: I am. I'm drafting it right this minute.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, you mentioned

6 an exhibit, a Defence Exhibit, D21, identifying it, so I think mention of

7 that document needs to be redacted, deleted. Is that all right?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Will you do that straight away,

10 please?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, I'm doing it now.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. Thank you.

13 [Interpretation] Mr. Harmon, are the measures taken sufficient to

14 meet your request?

15 MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for

17 drawing our attention to it.

18 MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I apologise for

19 any delay, but I don't think the matter could have waited until tomorrow.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right, Mr. Harmon.

21 Always when there is a dialogue among the deaf, there is difficulty in

22 communication. So I apologise to my colleagues who have other

23 appointments.

24 We will now adjourn and meet again tomorrow at 9.30.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

Page 4688

1 2.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

2 the 27th day of June, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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