Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5007

1 Friday, 30 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies

7 and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters;

8 good morning to the legal assistants and court reporters; good morning

9 Mr. Harmon, Mr. McCloskey, and Mr. Cayley; good morning Mr. Petrusic and

10 Mr. Visnjic; good morning, General Krstic.

11 Good morning, Witness. Once again, I would like to remind you

12 that you are testifying under oath, and we shall now be continuing our

13 work with you answering questions put to you by Mr. McCloskey.

14 Your witness, Mr. McCloskey.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.


17 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

18 Q. Mr. Butler, yesterday we left off as you were finishing the

19 discussion on the military aspects of two of the southern crime scenes,

20 the Kravica warehouse and the Cerska Valley. We'd taken it slightly out

21 of chronological order, but since we've started that, let's stay with the

22 13th of July.

23 Can you tell us about the Jadar River situation?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Factually, I can remind the Court we have a

25 survivor that was captured, he believed, by police. He was taken to a

Page 5008

1 small building which testimony has revealed was right outside the

2 5th Engineers in Konjevic Polje. He was interrogated by a person who

3 identified himself as Cica, and was eventually put on a bus with 16 others

4 that had men in camouflage uniforms and taken to the nearby area along the

5 Jadar River near where the Jadar River and the Drinjaca River meet, where

6 he survived an execution.

7 Q. Mr. Butler, what aspects of that situation have military elements

8 that fit into your analysis?

9 A. In that aspect, as with the previous ones, again the knowledge

10 that the facility at Konjevic Polje, the garrison of the 5th Engineer

11 Battalion, was an initial assembly point. Again the use of a bus in this

12 case, one of them that had to have come off the process of movement of the

13 Muslim women and children out of Potocari, again implies the knowledge

14 that, you know, the people controlling the buses, the corps staff, their

15 approval in order to start the diversion of buses away from the movement

16 of the women and children and into the process of collecting the Muslim

17 men.

18 The fact that the individual was interrogated by somebody. Again,

19 an awareness piece that the Muslim prisoners were being collected at that

20 location, initially assembled there so this individual could be present to

21 interrogate them. The presence of uniformed military men guarding them

22 and uniformed Special Police guarding them, and then their transport to

23 the execution site. All, again, the individual pieces infer a plan or a

24 knowledge of a plan by first the individuals who captured the survivor and

25 those individuals who processed them, who were part of the process once he

Page 5009

1 was captured.

2 Q. One of the facts I left out, and I believe you touched on this

3 briefly yesterday, but this survivor said that the first thing the police

4 took from him were his documents and his ID papers. Again, would those

5 have been important for a military interrogation of a prisoner?

6 A. For the interrogation it would have been important to establish

7 the identity of the individual providing the information, and further down

8 the line in the processing and handling of prisoners, that personal

9 identification would have been necessary as well.

10 Q. All right. Let's go to Tisca, the area, perhaps more particularly

11 the Luke school area, the area where the women and children got off the

12 bus.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And to remind the Court very briefly of those

14 facts, a survivor was separated from his family on the 13th of July and

15 taken with some 20 to 30 other Muslim males to a little school near this

16 area where he was guarded all day by soldiers -- and one soldier in

17 particular was talking on a military-type radio -- and then was

18 transported in a military truck that evening to an execution site where he

19 managed to survive into the woods.

20 Q. Can you tell us about the military aspects of that situation? I

21 believe you also mentioned earlier about the identification of a

22 Major Sarkic at that location on the previous day, 12 July, by

23 Major Boering. What does all this mean in a military context?

24 A. In this respect, that area was first in the zone of the Drina

25 Corps, although I'm still unclear as to whether it was the specific zone

Page 5010

1 of the Vlasenica or Milici Infantry Brigade. The physical geography would

2 suggest the Vlasenica Light Infantry Brigade; however, the physical

3 identification of Major Sarkic is an indicator of the Milici Infantry

4 Brigade.

5 Regardless of that specific, and as indicated on some of the

6 previous intercepts which were prior exhibits, certainly specifically

7 General Krstic and the Drina Corps staff had an awareness of; one, that

8 being the route that the buses would take, and that manifested itself in

9 the military presence there.

10 Pertaining to the specific aspects of the handling of the prisoner

11 when he was taken off the bus and placed into the nearby school or

12 facility, again, he's not able to identify many things that can be

13 inferred militarily, other than the school as a military-type facility in

14 use, and the fact that he witnessed a communications -- a field radio or a

15 field telephone, for lack of a better word, in which -- that this facility

16 was obviously in communications with some other headquarters. Again, the

17 inferred knowledge that at a designated point in time, somebody knew to

18 send a military truck, and pick these individuals up, and move them to a

19 designated location.

20 Q. Now, it's clear from a previous intercept that General Krstic made

21 very clear orders that the women and children or the people disembarking

22 should not be harmed, and we know that most of the women and children were

23 not harmed and were allowed to leave through Kladanj, though we also know

24 that at least one female was abused which we can assume is in direct

25 disregard of General Krstic's order.

Page 5011

1 What's the military likelihood that the Chief of Staff in charge

2 of the operation of the deportation and dealing with the Muslim prisoners

3 would not be aware that the men were being separated at this spot and

4 gathered together all day long, and then being taken off and executed?

5 A. In the scale of likelihood, I would judge that to be rather low.

6 Certainly with the communications network that we know existed at the

7 time, if these actions were occurring, particularly on the wide scope and

8 scale which we know that they did, and if in fact they represented a gross

9 series of individual violations of his orders, it's reasonable to assume

10 that somebody within the chain of command of the lower chain would have

11 notified him, or at least notified members of his staff.

12 Q. What is your understanding of Major Sarkic's position?

13 A. As identified by the prior witness or one of the previous

14 witnesses, and again, I don't know if he's a protected witness or not

15 so -- Major Sarkic's position was identified as the Chief of Staff of the

16 Milici Light Infantry Brigade.

17 Q. Have you placed him on your corps structure sheet exhibit?

18 A. Yes, sir, I have.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could get that set up, please, the corps

20 structure exhibit.

21 Q. And if you could take a moment, Mr. Butler, just to go over to

22 that exhibit and circle "Sarkic" so we can identify him, and I believe

23 we've mentioned Furtula also, if you could circle his presence on that

24 list.

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 5012

1 Q. Is there anyone else that you've discussed that we haven't circled

2 down there?

3 A. Colonel Blagojevic, the Commander of the Bratunac Brigade; Captain

4 1st Class Milenko Avramovic, the Commander of the 5th Engineer Battalion;

5 Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, the Commander of the Zvornik Infantry

6 Brigade; and Major Dragan Obrenovic, the Deputy Commander and Chief of

7 Staff of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. We've also discussed Lieutenant

8 Colonel, or in this case Colonel Svetozar Andric, the Commander of the 1st

9 Birac Infantry Brigade.

10 Within the corps staff we've discussed Lieutenant Colonel

11 Krsmanovic, the Chief of Transportation Services; we've discussed Colonel

12 Ognjenovic, the Operations; and again, in a dual role, Captain 1st Class

13 Avramovic as the Drina Corps Chief of Engineering; Colonel Ignjat

14 Milanovic, the Chief of Anti-Aircraft Defence; and I believe that is the

15 listing of names at present, sir.

16 Q. I take you back to the conversation between Colonel Beara and

17 General Krstic in reference to -- there was a reference to Blagojevic and

18 Nastic. Do you know what Nastic that may have been?

19 A. That would be then Major, later Lieutenant Colonel, Miomir Nastic,

20 the commander of the Milici Infantry Brigade -- Milici Light Infantry

21 Brigade.

22 Q. Thank you, you can take your seat.

23 Now, if you could discuss the crime scene of Bratunac which is

24 related to the Muslim men that were on the buses that spent the nights

25 there, July 12th, 13th, mostly, and at the various locations around

Page 5013

1 Bratunac. What can you tell us about that particular situation, and who

2 you would have expected to have known about that or been involved based on

3 the documents you have reviewed in your military experience?

4 A. The Muslim males who were taken from Potocari started arriving at

5 various facilities in Bratunac as early as the late afternoon of 12 July

6 1995.

7 The issue of facilities, again being multiple facilities, not just

8 one facility, implies that somebody had to have physically gone out or at

9 least designated those facilities and, further, had to take the necessary

10 actions to ensure that there was some form of a guard force at each and

11 every one of those facilities to guard the Muslim males who were being

12 brought in.

13 This job function, by position, would normally be associated with

14 the Bratunac Brigade Assistant Commander for Intelligence and Security or

15 his office as the most logical place to begin that function. In

16 coordination with the local Bratunac municipal authorities, they would be

17 the ones who would have the best frame of reference as to what facilities

18 were available and would be most suitable to deal with the large number of

19 Muslim men that were arriving in the urban area of Bratunac.

20 As that situation continued, what was evidenced, going into the

21 13th of July, was those designated facilities filling up to capacity, and

22 Muslim prisoners taken along the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje and

23 down to Nova Kasaba, on the afternoon and evening as the transportation

24 became available, were either held in front of those facilities or

25 adjacent to those facilities in the buses or trucks or held in outlying

Page 5014

1 areas of the Bratunac area. In one specific case, a series of trucks with

2 prisoners, the evening of the 13th, in the town of Kravica itself. Again,

3 representing and underestimation of just how much space they would really

4 need.

5 If you look in time sequencing of when the first movements or the

6 first known movements of Muslim men from the zone of the Bratunac Brigade

7 to the zone of the Zvornik Brigade occurred, it occurs in time sequence

8 almost at the conclusion or beginning at the conclusion of the movements

9 of the Muslim women and children out of Potocari. So essentially as the

10 women and children are cycled out, those buses are now cycled into the

11 movements of Muslim men from the holding facilities in Bratunac to the

12 Zvornik area. So from a staff planning/transportation aspect, it's just a

13 continual sequence.

14 The issue of the treatment of the survivors or the witnesses in

15 the facilities, notwithstanding their individual treatment per se, but

16 issues of the fact that there was no systemic process where these

17 individuals were fed, where the individuals received medical treatment,

18 where the individuals received, in some cases, even water, a recognition

19 on the part of the staffs, first the Bratunac Brigade staff and the Drina

20 Corps staff, that their stay in those facilities would only be temporary.

21 In respect to the individual abuse, particularly the shootings

22 which registered, by the witness accounts, throughout the city on the

23 12th, on the 13th, and in some cases the morning of the 14th, the aspect

24 of the physical location of the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade and a

25 number of senior officers from both the brigade, the Drina Corps staff,

Page 5015

1 and, in fact, the Main Staff there, as well as the numbers of dead bodies

2 which came out of those facilities as a result of the abuse, at a minimum,

3 numbers of 70 to 100, clearly in an urban area that represents a

4 significant sanitation risk, and in some effect there had to have been

5 coordination to dispose of those bodies.

6 Moving even beyond that to the aspect of transporting a large

7 number, several thousand minimum, of Muslim men from essentially the zone

8 of one brigade to facilities in the zone of another brigade would have

9 required extensive coordination between the staffs of not only those two

10 brigades but the staff of their superior headquarters, the staff of the

11 Drina Corps, and much of that is reflected in the movement of the multiple

12 convoys that departed Bratunac starting the evening of 13 July 1995.

13 Q. Do you know, from a particular document, where General Mladic was

14 located at this time?

15 A. Based on the material that we have, General Mladic was physically

16 seen, observed, on both 12 and 13 July 1995 in and around the zone of the

17 Bratunac Brigade up to and including the football field at Nova Kasaba.

18 Q. The Bratunac Brigade MP records indicate anything about looking

19 after General Mladic? I may be mistaken on that.

20 A. No, sir. We have the records of the Military Police Company or

21 platoon of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade which, in fact, indicates

22 that the Military Police Platoon was tasked with escorting General Mladic

23 around the area, providing for his physical security.

24 Q. With all those prisoners in Bratunac, what military facilities

25 were in Bratunac also?

Page 5016

1 A. The headquarters of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, which was

2 also being used as a forward command post for the headquarters of the

3 Drina Corps.

4 JUDGE WALD: Can I ask one question? Given what you've just told

5 us about these several crime scenes and given the earlier explanation of

6 Exhibit 462, which was the Zivanovic order on July 13th, followed by some

7 brigade orders about collecting people and putting them in collection

8 centres, et cetera, is it reasonable to infer that those written orders

9 were really more like a confirmation of what must have been earlier oral

10 orders, et cetera, given the time sequence of the fact that several of

11 these crime scenes had already occurred or were occurring simultaneously

12 on the 13th?

13 A. Yes, ma'am. I mean, clearly some form of an order given followed

14 up by paper, yes, ma'am.

15 JUDGE WALD: Just one sub-part on that. Do you find it at all

16 unusual that those orders, the Zivanovic order and then followed by some

17 of the implementing orders by others, talk about taking people -- they

18 talk about people from the column, I think, specifically, and capturing

19 them, taking them to collection centres, making sure that they're well

20 guarded but that there's nothing -- is it at all unusual that there would

21 be nothing in that order suggesting how long they would stay there or

22 what -- would they be kept for prisoner exchange or anything? It sort of

23 just stops. Just tells people, "Put them in a collection centre and guard

24 them," and doesn't give any indication of how long, for what purpose, et

25 cetera.

Page 5017

1 A. I wouldn't say that it would be unusual in the context of that

2 order, because most military units and certainly within this context the

3 JNA falls -- I'm sorry, the VRS falls there, of standard operating

4 procedures for how to deal with these issues. Once the orders were given

5 to physically put them and assemble them in a given location, what should

6 have naturally occurred were the same prisoner-handling processes which

7 the Drina Corps and any other unit had been following for the last three

8 years of the war.

9 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thanks.


11 Q. Mr. Butler, on that issue, did at least one of those orders

12 referring to prisoners make a specific reference to, "After you got them,

13 contact superior command"?

14 A. Yes, sir, it did.

15 Q. And how do you -- how do you look at that?

16 A. Again, within the context of the military units that would be

17 capturing the prisoners, it was a given that those units would not have

18 the capability to do anything more than assemble them in a given location

19 by having them walk to that location. The units themselves did not have a

20 capacity to place large numbers of prisoners on any form of transport and

21 move them anywhere.

22 Where I read that, is that by notifying the superior command, in

23 this case from the brigades the superior command being the command of the

24 Drina Corps, it would then be their job by function to arrange for the

25 required transportation assets to take these people from assembly

Page 5018

1 locations which, as you'll note geographically, were in close proximity to

2 where the column was still coming through, and to remove them to more

3 secure locations away from the combat activities.

4 Q. You've already commented that prisoners can, I believe, in an

5 interrogation, can provide military intelligence to the forces that have

6 captured them. At that time in the war, throughout the war, what else

7 were they doing with prisoners that could advantage the side that captured

8 them?

9 A. One of the customary provisions that was observed throughout the

10 war was, in many cases, a formalised prisoner exchange system where

11 prisoners, live prisoners, were exchanged for live prisoners of the other

12 factions, and in some cases where live prisoners were exchanged for the

13 returns of the remains of soldiers who had been killed.

14 This evolved, certainly by 1994 and 1995, into a fairly formalised

15 procedure, whereas on the Republika Srpska side, it was a Prisoner of War

16 Exchange Commission, codified and established by the President of the

17 republic with designated members.

18 Q. Can we assume that on July 12th, 13th, there were many Serb

19 prisoners held in Muslim military prisons?

20 A. There were Serb soldiers held in Muslim military prisons. I

21 cannot speculate on what that number would be, but certainly not only the

22 Drina Corps command knew this, but other corps commanders were aware of

23 this as well to a point where in some cases prisoners were transferred

24 throughout the Republika Srpska to be exchanged by other corps.

25 Q. So by not using several thousand prisoners as exchange, the

Page 5019












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the

13 French and the English transcripts.













Page 5020

1 command was losing the ability to bring young Bosnian Serb soldiers home

2 to their families?

3 A. That is correct, sir.

4 Q. I think that finishes the area of the, what we referred to as the

5 southern crime area, so I think we can start moving towards Zvornik.

6 Mr. Butler, could you first briefly summarise the movement of the column

7 as it left the area that we've been talking about and went through

8 Konjevic Polje, Cerska, and up. And perhaps we should take off the

9 exhibit that's on the easel now and let Mr. Butler just give us a brief

10 explanation of what's happening, and then we'll get into the Zvornik

11 combat reports to help provide more background into that.

12 A. Moving now into the evening hours of the 13th and through the day

13 of 14 July 1995, as we've previously discussed, the column -- essentially

14 there was an advance guard, if you will, of the column, the armed -- the

15 extremely well armed part of the column, designed to break a hole through

16 the lines, and the remainder of the column moving up.

17 Throughout these days, and particularly the 13th and into the

18 14th, the column, coming through Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba area, moved up

19 through what the -- is referred to geographically as the wider area of

20 Kamenica and Cerska, in these two areas here.

21 Q. Excuse me. For the record, if I could just say, you're talking

22 about a large area north of Cancari.

23 A. As in the case of the movement of the column in the south, the

24 route was very much dictated by the terrain or the lay of the land. This

25 is an extremely rugged, hilly area, well forested with very steep

Page 5021

1 valleys. So the track that the column took, while on one hand, you know,

2 a narrow path, and also one that had been used for several years prior

3 back and forth by individuals or small groups transiting from Tuzla to the

4 enclave. And during the course of the two years prior, there was a rather

5 active smuggling operation that went back and forth, so the broad route of

6 the column was fairly well known.

7 By the 15th, the early morning hours of 15th, primarily the best

8 armed portion of the column and the remaining stragglers that were coming

9 up were engaging the rear areas of three battalions of the Zvornik

10 Brigade, would be the 7th Infantry Battalion, the 4th Infantry Battalion

11 and the 6th Infantry Battalion.

12 Q. Mr. Butler, we have got a more particular map, and as we get into

13 those dates we'll ask you to talk to us in more specifics, but I think

14 that's pretty good background for the 13th. And if you could take a seat

15 again, and we'll start with the daily combat reports.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, could we have the map 547, which is the

17 Zvornik map, put up. It's the one right behind that.

18 Q. And Mr. Butler, if you could turn to Exhibit 540/A while we're

19 doing this and take a look at this, which is a 13 July daily combat report

20 to the command of the Drina Corps from the Zvornik Brigade, and again, to

21 just give us a -- what do you glean from this as it tells the story of the

22 column and of our case?

23 A. This is daily combat report of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade to

24 the command of the Drina Corps. What it is essentially advising the

25 command of the Drina Corps is the situation as they understand it from two

Page 5022

1 aspects. The first aspect is the established front line which the brigade

2 held relative to the Bosnian Muslim II Corps; and the second one is their

3 awareness of the size and the strength of the column, the route it would

4 be taking, and those activities that the brigade was doing in order to

5 counter that movement.

6 Paragraph 2 lists in specific detail the primary tasks that the

7 Zvornik Brigade command. In this case specifically, the Chief of Staff,

8 Major Obrenovic, was taking in order to deal with the issue of the

9 approaching column.

10 Q. And where again is his commander, Colonel Pandurevic, at this

11 time?

12 A. On the 13th of July, the Brigade Commander, Lieutenant Colonel

13 Pandurevic is physically located with those units of the Zvornik Brigade

14 south of Srebrenica that are conducting sweep operations in the Bandera

15 triangle area looking for the remnants of the 28th Infantry Division, and

16 also sequentially now beginning to move from the Srebrenica area to the

17 area of operations for Zepa.

18 Q. Okay, if you could move to Exhibit 541, and I don't think you need

19 to place it on the ELMO. That is a map that you've created to assist

20 anyone looking at these exhibits with some of the small villages that are

21 mentioned in the combat reports; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, sir, it is.

23 Q. And let's go to 542/A, which is a 13 July intercept at 2035 hours,

24 and can you tell us what this means to your analysis, if anything?

25 A. This is a conversation between an unidentified general and Major

Page 5023

1 Obrenovic, again, at this time the Chief of Staff and Deputy Commander of

2 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. And what Major Obrenovic is doing is

3 letting the designated general know that his advance units are reporting

4 on the column, they're reporting the size and the scope of the column, and

5 the fact -- essentially, it's a contact report, in simple terminology,

6 letting him know that he's in contact with the column.

7 One of the unique aspects when you look at this in a military

8 context which has ramifications in the coming days, is that Major

9 Obrenovic and the people in the Zvornik Infantry Brigade possibly had the

10 most accurate view and estimate of the size and the strength and the

11 threat that the column posed. And one of the reflections that you'll see

12 in the intercepts is their continued efforts to convince the command of

13 the Drina Corps that the size and scope and danger of the column was as

14 large as it was.

15 Q. Now, you've mentioned that the general is unidentified. At this

16 time, who would be options -- which generals would normally be checking in

17 or who would Obrenovic be checking in with? It's a little unclear who's

18 checking in with who on this.

19 A. The most relevant options would be he's checking in with either

20 the commander, then of the Drina Corps, General Major Zivanovic, or as the

21 time is 2035 hours, it may very well be the next commander, General Major

22 Krstic.

23 Q. Did Main Staff generals have interests in what was going on here

24 also?

25 A. In some of the subsequent intercepts, we have one which indicates

Page 5024

1 that a Main Staff general might have had interest in what was happening as

2 well.

3 Q. We'll get to that, but who do you think that may have been or do

4 you know?

5 A. I believe that general would have been General Major Miletic, the

6 Chief of Operations of the Main Staff. Within that context, he would have

7 been another logical general who would have wanted to have been apprised

8 of the military situation in the zone.

9 Q. All right. Now we're getting towards the later hours of

10 13 July. Again, as a factual reminder, there's been testimony that this

11 is the time that survivors and others were transported to the school at

12 Orahovac.

13 Now, Mr. Butler, can you give us a brief idea of what kind of

14 military planning we could expect prior to or in preparation of the

15 arrival of hundreds and hundreds of Muslim prisoners to the area of

16 Orahovac, keeping in mind we also have Petkovci and Pilica. However,

17 we'll get to those as we get to those days.

18 A. In a sense, it's almost the reverse process of what would have

19 happened at Bratunac. The first thing would have had to have occurred

20 would have been the physical identification of the location in Orahovac as

21 being suitable, then would have been the preparations necessary to receive

22 the large number of prisoners that were expected, and arrangements being

23 made one, initially to guard them; and two, over the longer term, the

24 required life support that has to be done to hold the prisoners, to

25 provide food, water, and medical.

Page 5025

1 In the case of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade -- excuse me -- this

2 would have represented a considerable planning, security, and logistics

3 issue which would have had to have been dealt with. In a broad scope of

4 numbers, and we'll just pop out of the specific into the broad scope for a

5 second, looking at the Zvornik Brigade of 4.000 and the number of

6 prisoners coming in estimated between 3.000 to 4.000, for a logistics

7 standpoint for food alone, you have almost doubled your immediate food

8 requirement.

9 These things, again brought down to the lower level now of the

10 facility at Orahovac, are all elements that the command and staff of the

11 Zvornik Infantry Brigade would have had to have anticipated and dealt with

12 in many cases prior to the actual arrival of the first prisoners.

13 Q. Could the 10th Diversionary Unit or the 65th Protection Unit have

14 managed all this planning and operation without the help of the Drina

15 Corps for the brigades in that zone on this movement up of thousands of

16 prisoners to the Zvornik Brigade area?

17 A. That is not possible. It's just militarily impossible to expect,

18 particularly in the case of the 10th Diversionary Unit, a unit of such

19 small size and scope, to be able to do that. And in the case of at least

20 the Military Police Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment to move into

21 another unit's sector and try to accomplish that doesn't make military

22 sense.

23 Q. How about Colonel Beara of the Main Staff? Did he have forces

24 under his command, aside from perhaps the two I've just mentioned? As a

25 security officer, does he actually have forces under his command or access

Page 5026

1 to them?

2 A. In the context of him being the head of the main security

3 administration, it's reasonable to assume that he'll have a number, and I

4 don't know the number, of security officers subordinate to him within the

5 framework of his office. That doesn't cover the scope of planning

6 activities and the scope of transportation activities and the scope of all

7 of the other activities that had to have been accomplished prior to the

8 arrival of the prisoners.

9 For the most part, those military expertise personnel reside in

10 other locations and under other people's command.

11 Q. From the materials that you've reviewed, are there any materials

12 that may provide some indication of part of the planning that you've

13 discussed, specifically related to Orahovac?

14 A. We have one piece of information which, taken in context with the

15 criminal activities that we know occurred on the 14th and later in time

16 the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which provides an indication of that planning

17 process.

18 Q. Now, would you put OTP Exhibit 543/A up on the ELMO and tell us

19 what that is and describe the information on the -- on page --

20 A. This is the --

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I'm sorry. This is the vehicle work log of a vehicle assigned to

23 the Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade.

24 Q. Sorry, Mr. Butler. There it is again. Okay.

25 A. The Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

Page 5027

1 Q. Can you just describe the vehicle and who are the driver/users?

2 A. This specific vehicle is an Opel Rekord, registration number

3 P4528. The three vehicle operators are identified as Milorad Bircakovic,

4 Mirko Ristic, and Misko Arapovic.

5 Q. And have you reviewed the roster of the Zvornik Brigade to

6 determine where these people were assigned, if they were?

7 A. All three of these individuals are assigned to the Military Police

8 Company of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

9 Q. All right. Could you turn the page and go to the substance of

10 this document and tell us about what this reveals.

11 A. As I indicated earlier, fuel was a very precious commodity,

12 particularly for the army in Eastern Bosnia in 1995. As such, all vehicle

13 operators were required to note vehicle usage and kilometres on a daily

14 basis. This form is a standard form first of the JNA, and later of the

15 VRS.

16 Specific to the activity in question, starting on 13 July 1995, we

17 see the vehicle making a multiple series of trips. "Standard," for

18 identification purposes, is the Standard Shoe Factory, which is the

19 headquarters of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade. "IKM" is the forward

20 command post of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, which is located near the

21 location of the 4th Infantry Brigade command post. "Zvornik local area,"

22 the municipal area of Zvornik.

23 Later, trips are noted that day to Orahovac, return to Zvornik,

24 Orahovac, returning to the Standard facility, Bratunac, and then back to

25 Zvornik. For the day, the three individuals travelled a total of

Page 5028

1 209 kilometres.

2 Q. And what do you make of these locations, briefly? I know you

3 discussed many of them, but what do you make that these locations may

4 involve and with these MPs?

5 A. Orahovac clearly becomes the initial collection site for hundreds

6 of Muslim prisoners who are moved from Bratunac to the zone of the Zvornik

7 Infantry Brigade. Bratunac, at this time on 13 July, is still a command

8 post of the Drina Corps and, again, also the command post of the Bratunac

9 Light Infantry Brigade.

10 Q. Now, have you reviewed the June 1995 vehicle log?

11 A. Yes, sir, I have.

12 Q. And did any MPs go to this area, the Orahovac area, in June?

13 A. This vehicle made one trip to the Orahovac area during

14 the month of June.

15 Q. And was one of the -- at least one of the drivers part of that

16 trip?

17 A. Milorad Bircakovic.

18 Q. So let's jump sequence for a moment and go on in this document and

19 see what else it may tell us. If you would turn the page. I notice it

20 seems to start up again with a new report for July 14th. Can you explain

21 that?

22 A. The pattern that occurs is as the fuel and dispersal listing fills

23 up, they'll go to a new form, and in this case, the previous form ended on

24 13 and they just went to the next form.

25 Q. Okay. So let's turn the page and just see the continuation then.

Page 5029

1 Can you refer to the 14 July segment and talk about those locations and

2 how you would analyse them?

3 A. "Standard" again being the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade,

4 trip to Orahovac, a trip to Divic, back to Orahovac, an area referred to

5 as Rocevic, back to Orahovac, Zvornik local area, Standard, and then the

6 local area.

7 Q. Do you know what's in Divic?

8 A. Divic is a small -- is a small community. I believe it's to the

9 north in the area of Pilica.

10 Q. All right. How about Rocevic?

11 A. Rocevic is an area along the road south of Pilica which is

12 believed by the investigation to have held Muslim men in the school

13 there.

14 Q. So on the 14th, would that be consistent with your knowledge of

15 some of the locations of Muslim men?

16 A. Yes, sir.

17 Q. All right. Go on to the 15th.

18 A. It notes the area of Karakaj, a suburb of Zvornik; back to

19 Rocevic; local area; back to Standard facility; Divic; Zvornik. And then

20 continuing on the 15 back to Standard, Kozluk, Standard, Rocevic, Kozluk,

21 and local.

22 Q. Now, Kozluk is obviously a crime scene. It's also the location of

23 a military unit; is that right?

24 A. That is correct, sir.

25 Q. It's also a relatively big town in that area.

Page 5030

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. All right. How about the 16th?

3 A. Kula, Pilica, local, then back to Standard, Kozluk, Rocevic,

4 Pilica, and then a location Sem, which I've been unable to locate.

5 Q. Where is Kula?

6 A. Kula is identified as the school in the village of Kula near

7 Pilica, and the investigation has determined that Muslim men were detained

8 in that school.

9 Q. So taking all of these villages and locations into account, what

10 does that tell -- what can you conclude from that?

11 A. Knowing after the fact the locations of the crime scenes and the

12 events which occurred and looking at this travel pattern, it's consistent

13 with the fact that the vehicle was involved on the 13th and perhaps the

14 14th with the identification of facilities, and certainly on the 14th and

15 15th, some form of a monitoring process at areas which are known crime

16 scenes.

17 Q. And I believe you've talked about this, but do military police

18 generally have responsibility over prisoners of war?

19 A. One of the primary responsibilities of military police is issues

20 dealing with the handling of prisoners of war, yes, sir.

21 Q. Now, are all the locations that were just mentioned in that

22 specific document that are related to scenes in the indictment, are those

23 all within the Drina Corps area of responsibility?

24 A. Every location mentioned from the 13th through the 16th is within

25 the zone of the Drina Corps. With the exception of Bratunac, they're also

Page 5031

1 all located within the zone of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

2 Q. Was there another military option to take prisoners at that time,

3 as far as you know?

4 A. The general procedure with prisoners as they were taken by most of

5 the units in Eastern Bosnia was, particularly in Northeastern Bosnia to be

6 specific, was to transport them to the established military prison of

7 Batkovici located in the area of Bijeljina.

8 Q. And where is Bijeljina?

9 A. Bijeljina is not on this map, but it's located about 15 to 20

10 kilometers north of where Pilica is located on this map.

11 Q. And which corps is that in?

12 A. That would be physically or geographically within the zone of the

13 East Bosnia Corps of the army of the Republika Srpska.

14 Q. And if you could go briefly to Exhibit 544, 545, 546, and tell us

15 what that is, what they depict, how it relates to what you're telling us.

16 A. This is an aerial image provided by the United States government

17 pertaining to Batkovici prison on 16 July 1995. At this time, a minimum

18 of several thousand Bosnian-Muslim males are in the custody of the army of

19 the Republika Srpska. This view indicates the normal view of the prison.

20 It does not show any indications of any preparations being made whatsoever

21 to prepare for the arrival of several thousand prisoners.

22 Q. And could you just take us through the other photographs? Next

23 exhibit is 545 and then 546, basically the same place, different dates.

24 A. 17 July 1995, and again, no visible signs of preparations being

25 made to accept a number -- a large number of prisoners. Same facility, 21

Page 5032












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13 French and the English transcripts.













Page 5033

1 July 1995, again, no visible indicators of preparations being made to

2 accept a large number of prisoners.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that finishes July 13th. It may be

4 a good time to take a break.

5 JUDGE WALD: One last question. Do we know what the capacity of

6 this military prison Batkovici or whether it was full at the time or --

7 A. The International Red Cross monitored this facility, but I do not

8 have the number, the prisoner population number, available to me, and I

9 don't believe that they've been giving it to us.

10 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, Mr. Butler, what kind of facility would

12 you expect when you say no visible facility to receive prisoners? I mean,

13 the size was not adequate, or what preparations should there be, judging

14 by the pictures?

15 A. The phrase I use is "no visible preparations of the facility --"

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 A. Judging from the large number of prisoners, and again, not knowing

18 myself what the capacity of the facility is, there are visible indicators

19 that I, as an analyst, would expect to see for a facility like this to be

20 ready to accept or be capable to accept a large number of prisoners.

21 Assuming that the buildings were even at half capacity and knowing

22 that there were several thousands prisoners inbound, one would certainly

23 expect to see additional military activity related to the guard force

24 necessary to guard them. One might expect to see some of the buses which

25 would have been taken -- taking them to the facility still there at the

Page 5034

1 time the image was taken. If the facilities flowed over, one might expect

2 to see the erection of tents or other temporary structures. Certainly

3 with the series of several thousand prisoners coming in for an

4 undetermined time, you would expect to see an increase in the sanitation

5 facilities, water supply facilities, those more permanent life support

6 things which had to have occurred.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We're going to have a break now

10 of 20 minutes.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.43 a.m.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, we are ready to

14 resume.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Butler, I want to take you back briefly to Exhibit 543/A, and

17 was there a small mistake in your testimony on that exhibit?

18 A. Yes, sir. The location of the town of Divic, in fact it is a town

19 south of Zvornik. It is not located to the north of Zvornik, and it is

20 not located in the Pilica area.

21 Q. Okay, thank you.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would also like to call your attention to a

23 new exhibit which is out of the -- just delivered to us. It was not in

24 the binders, but you should have a copy of it, Exhibit 713/A. It's an

25 article of the "Drinski Magazine" from December 1995, and it is about

Page 5035

1 Milomir Savcic from the protection regiment, and just gives some

2 background on him and relates to an operation he was involved at Osmace.

3 And the Court recalls the Jadar River survivor who testified a bit about

4 the discussion that this person named Cica had about these various

5 subjects. So this will provide the Court with some additional information

6 on the -- in regard to the testimony of the Jadar River survivor and this

7 particular individual, Milomir Savcic.

8 Q. Mr. Butler, this is an article that you have reviewed as part of

9 your analysis.

10 A. Yes, sir, it is.

11 Q. All right. Now, let's go on to Exhibit 548/A, but now we're into

12 14 July, so we'll start with a brief background of the column from the

13 point of view of the daily combat reports, and then we'll get into some

14 more intercepts, and then we'll get into some military documents.

15 So if we could start with Exhibit 548, the 14 July regular daily

16 combat report of the Zvornik Brigade, and what does it tell us about the

17 column and the situation in the Zvornik Brigade area of the

18 responsibility?

19 A. Again, the report is to the command of the Drina Corps, and it's

20 discussing the two aspects of the military threat relevant to the Zvornik

21 Infantry Brigade, that of the forces of the Bosnian Muslim 2nd Corps along

22 the front line and that of the column approaching from the south.

23 Paragraph 2 again specifies the tasks for the units or that the

24 units subordinate to the brigade are doing or taking, and the last item

25 further notes that the Zvornik Infantry Brigade is receiving information

Page 5036

1 on the activities of the enemy column by virtue of their intercepting

2 communications between the military leaders of the column and military

3 individuals in Tuzla or associated with the Bosnian Muslim 2nd Corps.

4 Q. So the VRS was doing the same thing that the BiH was doing

5 regarding intercepts.

6 A. Yes, sir, it was.

7 Q. Can you step to the easel and just give us a little background on

8 the military units in the Zvornik area, and especially tell the Court

9 about the front line and who's on that front line. You just mentioned the

10 2nd Corps and the threat. Sort of describe the military situation for the

11 VRS as the column approaches in one direction and 2nd Corps sits on the

12 line in the other.

13 A. Within the date context of 13 and 14 July 1995, this map graphic

14 represents the tactical layout on the ground, if you will, or the

15 disposition of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and these representations are

16 derived off of map graphics that were seized as a part of the search of

17 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade by the OTP.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I can refer the Court to Exhibit 2. That was

19 a long time ago, but that was a map of the Zvornik Brigade area of

20 responsibility captured during our search warrant. That is what

21 Mr. Butler has just referred to.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, perhaps it would

23 be convenient if you indicated -- that is to say, I don't know whether

24 this map has a number, but perhaps you could tell us the number so that we

25 should know what we're talking about, because now we have this

Page 5037

1 communication code between ourselves. So although Mr. Butler knows what

2 it's all about, perhaps you should indicate it. Thank you.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Yes. That is

4 Exhibit 547. Excuse me. The exhibit Mr. Butler is now referring to, the

5 large map of the Zvornik area.

6 A. The units of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade to the far north, and

7 the most northern unit in the Zvornik Brigade sector, and by virtue of the

8 line between the Drina Corps and the East Bosnia Corps, the northern most

9 unit of the Drina Corps is the 1st Infantry Battalion. Further to the

10 south the 5th Infantry Battalion, the 2nd Infantry Battalion, the

11 3rd Infantry Battalion.

12 For the most part, the elements of all four of these battalions

13 were engaged on the line, this grey line, the line of contact between them

14 and the forces of the Bosnian Muslim II Corps.

15 The Muslim column approaching from the south, as you can tell by

16 the route, did not militarily affect these units per se from their static

17 positions.

18 The southern three battalions, the 6th Battalion, the

19 4th Battalion, and the 7th Battalion, again the majority of their forces

20 arrayed along the line of contact, and the column was to have a line of

21 impact on the rear areas of the 7th, 4th, and 6th Battalions and have a

22 very significant impact, detrimentally, to the 4th Battalion which

23 absorbed the brunt of the attack.

24 As previously discussed, the 8th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade

25 was operating in the zone of the Bratunac Brigade as their 4th Battalion.

Page 5038

1 And it's also important at this time to remember that the remaining mobile

2 forces of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the Drina Wolves or 1st Podrinje

3 Detachment from Kozluk, as well as the Armour Company, the Armoured

4 Personnel Car Company, and a lot of the other mobile infantry assets, the

5 reserve components of many of these units, had already been withdrawn from

6 the front lines and had, in fact -- and were still, on 13 and 14 July,

7 deployed either at the area of Srebrenica or moving towards Zepa.

8 That's important in the context from a military sense because

9 essentially there are no mobile reserve forces left in the Zvornik Brigade

10 of a military nature to deal with the new threat of the column. And as we

11 go through both the combat reports and the intercepts, one of the comments

12 that Major Obrenovic first, and later Colonel Pandurevic will be making,

13 will be the fact that all of his reserves are committed. He has no other

14 forces. Again, the necessity now of the Drina Corps to find additional

15 forces to send into the zone as this combat situation develops.

16 For the purpose of 13 and 14 July, the only reserve forces that

17 Major Obrenovic has left constitutes one or two small Intervention

18 Platoons, the Military Police Company, and an ad hoc grouping from the

19 Engineer Company which was thrown together and deployed in this wider area

20 on the 13th and 14th in ambush positions to await the column.


22 Q. And for the record, you made reference to the area south of

23 Hodzici and Liplje.

24 A. That is correct, sir.

25 Q. Let's move on to the next exhibit, 549, which is again a map where

Page 5039

1 you've designated the rough areas of certain villages that may be

2 associated with the various daily combat reports; is that right?

3 A. Yes, sir.

4 Q. So let's then go on to 550/A. Now, this is a document dated

5 14 July 1995. It's an interim report. Can you again tell us the

6 significance of an interim report? We know about the daily combat

7 reports. Tell us a bit more about the interim report, especially as to

8 how it may relate to Zvornik.

9 A. While the daily combat reports provide the corps with the broad

10 situation and the daily wrap-up of events within the brigade sector, an

11 interim report, as defined under their operating methodology, was the

12 report to provide information that was of immediate importance or

13 significance to the corps command for their knowledge, awareness, and in

14 some cases, for them to take action on.

15 Q. Okay. So what is the substance of this interim report?

16 A. This interim report to the command of the Drina Corps indicates

17 the situation which is essentially at 2020 hours on 14 July. A large

18 group of Muslims have essentially overrun the ambush positions. Based on

19 where they're being located and identified, the brigade commander or in

20 this case the brigade Chief of Staff acting as the brigade Deputy

21 Commander, Major Obrenovic is making it clear to the corps command that

22 he's expecting a significant breakthrough of the column in the rear areas

23 of the 4th and 7th Infantry Battalions either later that evening or

24 tomorrow morning. The last notation being the corps needs to find some

25 intervention forces or additional forces and send them up as soon as

Page 5040

1 possible to assist in the dealing of this issue.

2 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, Mr. Butler. Speaking of the column, what

3 real threat, in military terms, did this column present?

4 A. It presented a significant military threat. It was well armed, at

5 least the head of the column was. They were -- they grossly outnumbered

6 the amount of forces initially that the Zvornik Brigade was able to defend

7 against. It was approaching from the rear of the fixed or static

8 positions of the battalions on line, so they weren't even in the position

9 to use their fixed fortifications, and at the same time, they had to also

10 be prepared to deal with the Muslim forces in front of them. So in

11 effect, for these battalions, they were being sandwiched between two

12 well-armed and hostile forces. It was a significant military threat.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.


15 Q. Could you step to the exhibit again, 547, I believe, and point out

16 what you just said, without repeating yourself if you can too much so we

17 can see what you mean. When they say "expect a breakthrough deep in the

18 area of the responsibility," tell us what a "breakthrough" is and show us

19 where they expect that.

20 A. Within the context of this 14 July interim report, the battalions

21 in question, the 4th the Infantry Battalion and the 7th Infantry

22 Battalion. Again, looking at the terrain and the known infiltration and

23 exfiltration routes between the area of Tuzla off the map, we call it the

24 general area of Nezuk here, and Srebrenica, the terrain dictated that the

25 majority of the column forces, if they were passing through the Muslim

Page 5041

1 territory, would be passing through the series of valleys that ran in the

2 area along Baljkovica.

3 Keeping in mind the military threat, arrayed -- most of the combat

4 power as defined in the battalion would be arrayed against the forces of

5 the Bosnian Muslim II Corps. From the rear, never expecting a military

6 threat certainly of that scale from there, there were very few positions

7 established, and even those positions established would have been prepared

8 to deal with the threat approaching from the direction of Muslim-held

9 territory to the west, not dealing with a massive threat coming from the

10 south and west -- I'm sorry, south and east.

11 So within that context, essentially the units are facing the wrong

12 direction. The sharp end is in the wrong direction. And what is

13 reflected in the combat reports are the rather rapid and frantic efforts

14 of the brigade commander, or in this case Major Obrenovic, the Chief of

15 Staff, to establish small ambush locations in an effort to at least delay

16 the column, certainly not expecting the column to be stopped.

17 That is the context of the broad military threat which these units

18 faced.

19 JUDGE WALD: Do we have any idea how many were in the units, in

20 the column? We're now on the 14th and there have been some substantial

21 surrenders or people, you know, off the road on the 13th, and we've also

22 had a lot of testimony that only about a third of the column was armed,

23 the front, the front. The rest were civilians dragging along. But when

24 you say "significant military threat," that would mean a combination of

25 some substantial numbers that are armed, I suppose.

Page 5042

1 A. We have asked a question relative to the Bosnian Muslim II Corps

2 on what their accounting is of the number of soldiers who finally came out

3 of there and were present for duty at the end of the operation in order to

4 try and get that number of just how many armed fighters there were and we

5 have not been able to obtain that number.

6 Based on the VRS accountings, and those being specifically those

7 of the Zvornik Brigade, I'm comfortable with at least as a minimum of a

8 thousand armed fighters and an untold series of other thousands with the

9 column. Again, given in the context with the smaller, much smaller

10 numbers that the Zvornik Brigade had there, they were significantly

11 outnumbered in a military context.


13 Q. Can you briefly describe the weaponry the column would -- expected

14 to have, at least before the hand-to-hand combat started, and also the

15 weaponry that the 2nd Corps could have been expected to have?

16 A. Starting with the column, there would have been a series of light

17 weapons, we would call them, hand-held weapons: rifles, machine guns,

18 light machine guns, things of that nature. Despite the demilitarised

19 aspect of what was supposed to have happened in Srebrenica with the 28th

20 Infantry Division, they were never fully demilitarised, and as such,

21 the -- they were armed, and at least the initial portions of the column

22 were capable of defending themselves. Now certainly as time went on

23 within the context of ammunition and everything else, that did run low.

24 On the other side, the forces of the Bosnian-Muslim II Corps are

25 right against it, were well armed insomuch as light weapons. They also

Page 5043

1 had mortars, heavy machine guns, and artillery. And as will be reflected

2 in the future daily combat reports and interim reports, and as already

3 alluded to by the 14 July 1995 report, the actions of the column and the

4 actions of the Bosnian-Muslim military forces outside of 2nd Corps were

5 being coordinated, and in many aspects, elements of the Bosnian-Muslim II

6 Corps were launching artillery, mortars, or heavy fire from the lines here

7 to support the activities of the column.

8 So again, the threat, not isolated either a north or a south, or

9 in this case, you know, from the column or from here, but a combined

10 threat that militarily the people in the Zvornik Brigade had to deal

11 with.

12 Q. And in addition, there was a large urban population in Zvornik; is

13 that correct?

14 A. That is correct, sir.

15 Q. And across the river, of course, is the FRY. Do you have any

16 indications of any of the materials that the FRY ever made any noises or

17 indications or movements in the direction of Zvornik and the combat

18 activity that was going on during this time period?

19 A. We have no information, and I've seen no information in the

20 material that I've reviewed that would indicate in any way, shape, or form

21 the FRY performed any military activities or made any military movements

22 related to the combat activities occurring or that would occur in and

23 around the Zvornik area across the river.

24 Q. So with this background, how urgent is Major Obrenovic's request

25 to bring in more intervention forces, Exhibit 550/A?

Page 5044

1 A. In isolation, it clearly is an urgent request. And coupling this

2 with some of the previous intercepts and some of the other intercepts that

3 will follow, you can see a very frenzied pattern of activities as Major

4 Obrenovic is desperately trying to assemble forces to deal with the

5 military threat.

6 Q. Major Obrenovic makes this urgent request to the command of the

7 Drina Corps by this document. Would this be consistent with a theory that

8 the Main Staff was now in charge of the brigade directly and was handling

9 the activities of the brigade directly without the Drina Corps having any

10 authority there?

11 A. No, sir, it is not.

12 Q. Okay. Let's now start going through the intercepts that we have

13 on 14 July. Let's go to the first one, Exhibit 551/A bis on the one I

14 have, but just watch out for those initials if we find any. And what we

15 have here is a 0805 hours conversation between General Mladic and an

16 unidentified male person "X". How does this add to your analysis?

17 A. This conversation with Mladic and the unidentified individual, I

18 believe we've dated to 13 July 1995, and it sets the scene and indicates

19 that an awareness from General Mladic that he will be leaving the field

20 for a several-day period within the next day.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And our records indicate 14, but we'll

22 clarify -- clarify that.

23 Q. And I want to point you specifically to down near the bottom of

24 the page, "Until 1500 hours and then I'm going to the field. I'll be busy

25 for two or three days and then I'm coming back."

Page 5045












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13 French and the English transcripts.













Page 5046

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the witness has -- a previous witness did

2 identify this as the 14th, so just to clarify the record. And now I would

3 like to address the Court to OPT Exhibit 64/A which should be in the

4 possession of the registry, and I will just begin reading it for you. It

5 is a statement of Major General C.L. Elliott who was the attache for Carl

6 Bildt, and this is the subject of an agreement with defence counsel.

7 "My name is Major General C.L. Elliott. I am a career officer

8 severing in the British Army and hold the rank of Major General. From

9 June 1995-January I served as a military advisor to Mr. Carl Bildt

10 (Representative of the European Union at the UN International Committee

11 for Former Yugoslavia).

12 " On 14 July 1995, I travelled to Belgrade with Mr. Bildt, General

13 de La Presle (another military advisor to Mr. Bildt) and others.

14 Mr. Bildt attended a meeting with President Slobodan Milosovic of the

15 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) between approximately 1300 and 1700

16 hours. At the conclusion of this meeting, Mr. Bildt debriefed the other

17 members of his delegation, including myself, on issues relating to his

18 meeting with President Milosovic. Later that same evening, at

19 approximately 1900 hours, Mr. Bildt and General de La Presle met with

20 President Milosovic and General Ratko Mladic, Commander of the Main Staff

21 of the Bosnian Serb Army. This meeting concluded at approximately 2200

22 hours on 14 July 1995.

23 "On 15 July 1995, in Belgrade, Mr. Bildt, Ambassador Stoltenberg,

24 Mr. Akashi (Special Representative of UN Secretary General), Lieutenant

25 General Rupert Smith (Commander Bosnia-Herzegovina Command, UNPROFOR),

Page 5047

1 David Austin (political advisor to Mr. Bildt), General de La Presle, and I

2 attended a meeting with President Milosovic and other members of his

3 delegation. In attendance at his meeting was General Ratko Mladic. The

4 meeting commenced at about 1200 hours and concluded at about 2200 hours.

5 During this time, General Mladic remained in my presence until the

6 conclusion of the meeting.

7 "The contents of this statement, consisting of one page, signed by

8 me, is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing

9 that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if I

10 have wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not

11 believe to be true.

12 "Signed this Sixth day of June 2000 at Trenchard Lines, Upavon,

13 Wiltshire. Signed by Major General C.L. Elliott. Witnessed by Major

14 E.R.H. Marlow."

15 And as I mentioned, this was the subject of an agreement with the

16 Defence to provide with you this statement.

17 Q. So let's go on, Mr. Butler, to the next exhibit, which should be

18 552/A bis, a very brief statement on 0850 hours on the 14th. Can you make

19 anything of this?

20 A. Again, just an awareness piece that an individual identified by

21 the intercept operators as Zivanovic is still physically on the ground,

22 and there's a presence.

23 Q. Now, let's go to Exhibit 555/A, noting that we have provided all

24 the various versions of these conversations, but I'm choosing ones that

25 appear to be the most complete. And this is a CSB intercept, 14 July

Page 5048

1 1995, at 0910 hours, and what, if anything, does this add to your

2 analysis, or what can you tell us about it?

3 A. The intercept is between Major Jokic, the engineer staff officer

4 of the Zvornik Brigade, who on 14 July 1995 was also performing duties as

5 the duty officer of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and with General

6 Zivanovic. The time, 9.10 in the morning, and an awareness piece where

7 the duty officer of the brigade is informing General Zivanovic of the size

8 of the column based on their information, and the threat that it's posing

9 to them.

10 He mentions further when Major General Zivanovic -- General-Major

11 Zivanovic, excuse me, is clearly skeptical, you know, we were told by the

12 intelligence officer who said this, the individual identified as Dusko

13 Vukotic, who was, in fact, an intelligence officer with the Zvornik

14 Infantry Brigade. They're tracking the route of the column and where

15 they're heading.

16 Going into the second aspect or the second page of the

17 conversation, General Mladic notes that Mane needs to be informed

18 immediately. Mane, in fact, in this context is I believe to be Mane

19 Djuric, the Deputy Chief of the Zvornik CSB, and again, telling him that

20 he needs to mobilise every available individual, noting that the army is

21 busy with other assignments at the moment.

22 And the last aspect of the conversation, Major Jokic notes that

23 Chief of Staff Obrenovic is coming now and will take some steps

24 immediately. General Mladic noting that Mane should do that for you

25 because he has policemen in Konjevic Polje and in Zvornik. And again,

Page 5049

1 General Mladic noting -- I'm sorry, General Zivanovic noting that, "we are

2 not talking about such a large number of people, they're lying."

3 Q. And just for the record it says General Mladic, but I think you

4 misspoke and said Milanovic. You meant General Zivanovic is the only

5 general involved in this conversation?

6 A. That is correct, sir.

7 Q. Now, the other subject we were speaking about yesterday, and you

8 did make reference to, with General Krstic as Commander of the Drina Corps

9 in the evening of July 13th, but we now see General Zivanovic active on

10 the radio with the situation, the emergency situation as you described

11 going on at Zvornik.

12 If General Krstic is now the Commander of the Drina Corps, how do

13 you account for General Zivanovic being involved in this emergency

14 situation in Zvornik?

15 A. When looking at the analysis of this issue, one of the things

16 that's not noted particularly during the morning, afternoon, and early

17 evening hours of 14 July 1995 for the intercepts in their entirety is that

18 we don't have conversations directly between the Zvornik Infantry Brigade

19 and General Krstic. While there are a variety of reasons why that could

20 occur, the short answer is I don't know, and I would prefer not to

21 speculate on those.

22 Having said that, looking -- one, we are aware that General

23 Zivanovic did remain in the area, and by the communications he was able to

24 be and was in contact with the elements of the Zvornik Brigade or the

25 command elements of the Zvornik Brigade in Zvornik, that being the Chief

Page 5050

1 of Staff and his representative, the duty officer, and that is the pattern

2 we see.

3 Clearly my inference here is that General Zivanovic, still being a

4 general, still being a responsible general, wouldn't be the type of person

5 who, seeing this situation develop as it develops as an emergency, is just

6 going to stand back and going to say, "This isn't my problem." He has, in

7 fact, commanded these units for the last three years, and as evidenced in

8 the volumes of material, these people have been working together and

9 operating as a corps entity and within these command relationships for

10 several years. It would not be an unexpected behaviour at all for General

11 Zivanovic or, for that matter, any competent general to step in and deal

12 with a rapidly developing and urgent situation that needed to be

13 developed.

14 So while I cannot account for why there are no direct contacts

15 noted between the Zvornik Brigade and General Krstic over these issues, we

16 do know, developed through the investigation, that there were contacts

17 between General Zivanovic and General Krstic pertaining to this issue, and

18 within all of that, it's not unsurprising [Realtime transcript read in

19 error"surprising"] that General Zivanovic is involved to the degree that

20 we note him to be involved.

21 Q. General Zivanovic, stepping in in this emergency situation --

22 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. You said it is not "unsurprising" or

23 "surprising"?

24 A. "Unsurprising."

25 JUDGE RIAD: Because it's written here "surprising." It changes

Page 5051

1 the whole meaning.

2 A. No, sir. It is"unsurprising."

3 JUDGE RIAD: It is"unsurprising."

4 A. At least to me.

5 JUDGE RIAD: To me too, but it was written differently. Thank

6 you.


8 Q. With General Zivanovic stepping in to assist in this situation,

9 would he have a reporting responsibility to the commander of the Drina

10 Corps?

11 A. Yes, sir, he would.

12 Q. Are you aware of any direct rules or regulations General Zivanovic

13 would have been violating by speaking to the duty officer and helping

14 direct the defence of Zvornik during this time period?

15 A. Under the circumstances of the situation, I can't envision it

16 being a violation of the operating methodologies for this to occur,

17 particularly within the sense that General Zivanovic, as the former Corps

18 Commander, certainly wouldn't be viewed as an outside entity. In this

19 context, the -- Major Obrenovic -- I'm sorry -- Major Jokic is advising

20 the general of the situation and General Zivanovic is giving him direction

21 on mobilising the civilian police.

22 These aspects of these orders, while, yes, they should and would

23 be coordinated with General Krstic as well as others so everyone in the

24 corps would know what was going on and why, again it's unsurprising that

25 he would do this.

Page 5052

1 Q. All right. That exhibit being noted at 0910 hours on the 14th. I

2 would just remind the Court of the 0935 hours conversation spoken of in

3 more detail that is most memorable by the comments of General Zivanovic

4 that he is slowly packing his bags, that he's been asked to go somewhere

5 else. That occurred at 0935 on the morning the 14th.

6 Q. Now, if we could go to Exhibit 556/A, 14 July, 2038 hours

7 conversation. Again, General Zivanovic at Zlatar and Major Jokic, Palma

8 Duty Officer, which we know to be Zvornik. Zlatar we know to be Drina

9 Corps HQ, Vlasenica.

10 What can you glean from this conversation, if anything?

11 A. The correspondents being the same, General Zivanovic and

12 Major Jokic. One of the analytical comments noted prior to that, the

13 frequency not being active from 1130 hours until 2020 hours. Again, a

14 possible explanation as to why on 14 July 1995 we don't have intercepts

15 between General Major Krstic and the command of the Zvornik Brigade as it

16 was up there, a possible technical failure of equipment. But again based

17 on this one piece, I wouldn't make that assessment, and I would stay with

18 what I've said earlier, which is, I don't know.

19 Looking into the context of the discussion, in many aspects it

20 mirrors the interim report that was noting the situation at 2020 hours on

21 14 July 1995.

22 One of the things which occurs here is General Zivanovic first

23 instructing Jokic to take what he's going to say as an order, instructing

24 him to tell Obrenovic, the Chief of Staff, and noting that, one, that

25 they're trying -- that they should try to surround the column or hold it;

Page 5053

1 pressure on it. And further noted that they'll come, they'll bring the

2 new ones in the morning as replacement. Excuse me. And Zivanovic is

3 trying to talk around the issue, General Zivanovic, that reinforcements

4 are on the way.

5 Turning to page 2 of the translation, again an update of the

6 current situation, an urgency as it was understood at the headquarters of

7 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the early evening hours of 14 July 1995.

8 And again the last line, an analytical comment, General Zivanovic spoke

9 with a distorted voice and was quite unintelligible, a potential

10 reflection of a technical difficulty with the communications system.

11 Q. Now, Major Jokic was the -- was a staff officer in charge of the

12 Engineering Unit. What was his particular job title and position?

13 A. He was the Chief of Engineers for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, by

14 position.

15 Q. Now I notice in this conversation General Zivanovic says: "Hey,

16 Jokic, listen." And he says: "Take this as an order."

17 Does a general usually have to tell a major, who is a duty

18 officer, whether something's an order or not?

19 A. As an officer, when a general talks to you, it's self-evident that

20 it's an order.

21 Q. And if General Zivanovic was no longer the Commander of the corps

22 on the 14th, the communication would have been sent to the Zvornik Brigade

23 regarding that, wouldn't it?

24 A. I am presuming that the same order that was sent to the Bratunac

25 Brigade on 14 July 1995 would have also been sent to the Zvornik Brigade

Page 5054

1 and every other brigade of the Drina Corps informing them of that fact.

2 Q. When a general that's been taken from his duty and been replaced

3 calls up his old unit, does that create some kind of ambiguity about his

4 ability to command as the commander of the corps?

5 A. No, sir, it shouldn't.

6 Q. All right. Let's now go to the next exhibit. I believe it's

7 557/A bis. 2056 hours, again General Zivanovic. And I note that someone

8 identified as "M" down the line says:

9 "How can I find out where General Zivanovic is? I've been

10 waiting here for him on his orders since 17 hours."

11 So again it appears General Zivanovic has been -- given some

12 orders to whoever this is. How do you evaluate that?

13 A. Again within the context of him being a general, not knowing who

14 the "M" subscriber is, it's difficult to place that in context. But

15 clearly somebody has been waiting for General Zivanovic who General

16 Zivanovic has asked to wait there for him.

17 Q. All right. Let's go on to Exhibit 559/A, 14 July, 2102 hours.

18 This is a somewhat --

19 A. I'm sorry, 559/A.

20 Q. Yes. This appears to be a conversation between Beara,

21 Colonel Beara, and again Jokic. Let me read some of the relevant

22 passages. Near the bottom of the page, after Beara has been put on the

23 line and Jokic's name is mentioned, under "J" it says:

24 "J: Yes. Hey, we have huge problems over here."

25 Beara can't be heard. Then "J" says:

Page 5055

1 "J: There are big problems. Well, with the people. I mean

2 with the parcel."

3 Beara can't be heard. "J" says:

4 "J: Who? Drago is nowhere around. I don't know where the

5 others are all day."

6 Beara can't be heard.

7 "J: What? Call up the number 155 in the superior command and

8 that's it? Okay, boss."

9 Beara:

10 "BE: ...

11 And then:

12 "BE: Number 155. Where is that?

13 J: Well, I can't tell you on this line, you know. You have it

14 over there at the signal man, who that is."

15 Now, let's go to your interpretation of the substance of this

16 information. What can you tell us about that?

17 A. With respect to problem or people and parcel, a consistent pattern

18 we've seen in the intercepts where talking around the fact that or knowing

19 that the communications are, in effect, in the clear and can be

20 intercepted, they use the reference or euphemism "parcel" to describe

21 people or prisoners. Drago, within the context of the Zvornik Infantry

22 Brigade, the people who clearly Jokic is indicating, Drago Nikolic, the

23 Assistant Commander for Security of the Infantry Brigade or the Zvornik

24 Infantry Brigade.

25 "The number 155 in the superior command." The designator 155,

Page 5056

1 and again a reflection of the fact that the communications lines were not

2 secure, as part of the communications plan, individuals within the

3 organisation were given a three designator number that changed every ten

4 days, and these numbers were distributed to the entire corps. We don't

5 have the communications plans to identify who 155 was on 14 July 1995,

6 but what Major Jokic is doing is telling Colonel Beara, who is located at

7 Badem, the headquarters of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, is that

8 155 either was here or gave an instruction or "wants you to contact him,"

9 as noted earlier, and that Colonel Beara can find out who number

10 designation 155 is by going over to the communications section of the

11 brigade and looking on that particular list.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. With regard to the word "parcel" in

13 particular, to your knowledge and assessment, would the word "parcel" be

14 used indiscriminately for corpses and living people or would it apply to

15 only -- I mean, is it for living things or is it for dead things?

16 A. I have never, in my review of the intercepts, come across the

17 phrase "parcel" being used in context with the reference to corpses or

18 dead bodies.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.


21 Q. Do you ever see the word "parcel" referred to as the Muslim

22 military column?

23 A. I've never seen the word "parcel" referred to as the Muslim

24 military column, no, sir.

25 Q. So on 14 July when Jokic says: "There are big problems. Well,

Page 5057

1 with the people. I mean with the parcel," just to briefly sum, the

2 Zvornik Brigade since the early morning hours of 13th, all day on the

3 14th, was guarding hundreds and hundreds of prisoners at the school in

4 Orahovac, the same at the school in Petkovci, and from the early afternoon

5 of Orahovac was executing people nearby and was doing the same thing that

6 evening at the dam at Petkovci and through the night. So by the time of

7 this particular call, 2102 hours, most of the people at the school in

8 Orahovac were dead.

9 And if we can go on to the next exhibit, OTP 561/A. This is, I

10 believe, a 14 July conversation, 2227 hours, and mentions to

11 General Vilotic and again Mr. Jokic.

12 What can you make of this conversation?

13 A. In the context of the correspondents first, clearly Major Jokic.

14 And as for General Vilotic, I'm unsure. We have gone back through the

15 existing records that we have and all of our sources of information, and

16 we've been unable to identify any army or police general named Vilotic,

17 certainly within the time context of 1995 or July 1995 specifically. The

18 closest match would be General Major Miletic who is the Chief of

19 Operations for the Main Staff of the VRS.

20 Getting into the text of the intercept, one, this general is

21 looking for Obrenovic the brigade Deputy Commander, Chief of Staff at the

22 time, and the slang phrase "Chief" refers -- is frequently referred to as

23 the Chief of Staff, and Major Jokic indicating that he's in the field,

24 meaning he's out with the soldiers. "We had problems up at Perunika. The

25 rest is being done."

Page 5058












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the

13 French and the English transcripts.













Page 5059

1 Miletic is discussing the tactical situation on the ground with

2 him. A group being cut off. They're being pushed towards the asphalt.

3 Clearly they're trying to talk around the situation, knowing the

4 communications are liable to be intercepted, but Major Jokic is trying to

5 bring General Vilotic, as identified, you know, up to speed with what's

6 happening.

7 On the second page of the intercept, Jokic notes that they've been

8 promised reinforcements, some still haven't arrived, and further notes

9 that to his knowledge, the "blue ones", we see that euphemism used a lot

10 to identify police forces which have bluish camouflage uniforms rather

11 than the military forces which traditionally use green ones, and those

12 blue ones are very specifically tagged to the municipal police. The name

13 again Vasic, Vasic being the Chief of the Zvornik CSB, the municipal

14 police.

15 The next part further down, Major Jokic explains to the general

16 that Obrenovic is engaged to the maximum, "We are all engaged in the

17 programme"; then a phrase, "This packet has done most to ruin us and since

18 this morning we have been reporting on the numbers of people," and it

19 tails off. Vilotic cuts him off to a point and says, "Don't talk to me

20 about that." Jokic says "Yes". Vilotic, "Well do we understand each

21 other," or did we understand? "Yes."

22 Vasic again and also a notation that says, "Let Tripkovic go."

23 Tripkovic, the close match there or the identification there is a Colonel

24 Tripkovic who is a Main Staff officer, indicating a presence there as

25 well, or at least General Vilotic has noted or believing his presence

Page 5060

1 there.

2 Q. Now, taking you back to Jokic's comment, "This packet has done

3 most to ruin us," this again -- this term "packet" is similar to parcel,

4 and "We've been reporting on the number of people." We've just seen Major

5 Jokic get "people" and "parcels" mixed up. Would it be normal in a

6 military context to report on the operation that you're conducting, and if

7 your operation is conducting dealing with hundreds and hundreds of

8 prisoners, would it be normal to report on those people in some fashion?

9 A. Yes, it would, sir.

10 Q. Now, if this is a Main Staff general or a general outside the

11 Drina Corps, this would be a general that is dealing directly with a

12 brigade over the telephone, a brigade duty officer. Is that unusual? Is

13 that an indication that the Main Staff has taken over direct control of

14 the brigade?

15 A. I don't read it that way at all, sir, no.

16 Q. Why not?

17 A. Again, looking over the large context of information, particularly

18 within the context of the military situation and the growing crisis in the

19 zone of the Zvornik Brigade, it certainly would not be unusual for the

20 chief of operations of the Main Staff, if that is in fact who this General

21 Vilotic is, General Miletic [sic], to have a great interest in the

22 situation as it was occurring.

23 Particularly with respect to the rapid gathering of

24 reinforcements, and keeping in mind which echelon does what within the

25 command of a brigade, a command of the corps, and in the Main Staff, it

Page 5061

1 would be the responsibility of the Main Staff chief of operations to have

2 to assemble military forces from outside the zone of the Drina Corps and

3 bring them in to the zone of the Drina Corps if the situation warranted.

4 That is not an action that the corps command can in and of itself

5 accomplish, reaching outside of the units that its responsible for and

6 having forces or reinforcements sent in.

7 Q. All right. Let's go to the next conversation, 562/A bis, 2236

8 hours, participants "X" and then it says "/Malinic (inaudible)". What do

9 you make of this, if anything?

10 A. If I remember correctly, this is the first conversation that we

11 have where Krstic is essentially intercepted by the Bosnian-Muslims on the

12 communication network on 14 July 1995. It doesn't have Krstic as a

13 correspondent. The correspondent is Malinic, who again identified Zoran

14 Malinic the Commander of the Military Police Battalion 65 Protection

15 Regiment. He is noting that Krstic has just come up here. "Here", it's

16 tough to tell whether "here" being Nova Kasaba or "here" being another

17 location because we don't know who "X" is.

18 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Butler, it looks to me like it says Malinic is

19 inaudible and we're getting a conversation from "X".

20 A. Okay, I'm sorry. In this context, yeah, "X" is Malinic.

21 Q. "X" is or is not Malinic? I note there's been a lot of these

22 things. Why don't you just take a moment and see what you think.

23 A. Okay, no, "X" is not identified as Malinic. If you look at the

24 last line, the phrase, "Take care Malinic," that is the designator for

25 what -- the individual that "X" is talking to. So again, I would not

Page 5062

1 identify "X" as Malinic.

2 Again, going through the context, the correspondent "X" is letting

3 Malinic know that Zivanovic has spoken to him. He's letting -- "X" is

4 letting him know that, "Now I've told Krle about this," suggested what

5 should be done, and the expectation is that Krle will give orders.

6 Q. You get that from where he said, "So he'll do something." Okay.

7 All right, let's go to the next conversation, 2241 hours. We have

8 "X/Malinic/Nastic". What can you -- Exhibit 564/A. What can you tell

9 us, if anything, about this? And I now note that there is a General

10 Miletic that arrives into the conversation, or his name does, excuse me.

11 A. Again, the correspondents here, Major Malinic and a correspondent

12 Nastic, who, when you look at the context of the conversation, my belief

13 is that this Nastic is in fact Major, later Lieutenant Colonel, Nastic,

14 the Commander of the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade.

15 Malinic notes that he talked to General Miletic. They're also

16 discussing, in many aspects very broadly and in very strange context, the

17 situation, one, around the road, and other situations that they're aware

18 of. But in this case, they're doing a rather good job in the early

19 portion of the conversation, it's tough to infer exactly what they're

20 talking about.

21 Looking at the second page of the intercept, and as the

22 conversation goes on, they're discussing issues of transfer or moving them

23 more over here to the east. And again, as these are adjacent units on the

24 battlefield, the military activity related to the area of Nova Kasaba and

25 Milici is still occurring. In many aspects, they're discussion here,

Page 5063

1 again, the tactical aspect of making and linking up their lines.

2 One of the last pieces is a discussion or a part where Nastic

3 indicates to Malinic, "Your colleague is down here," "here" I'm presuming

4 is Milici; and "I've just spoken with him," and further noting "He has a

5 meeting with his commanding officers. Go up there to his place and ask

6 for help."

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this may be a good time to take a

8 break.

9 JUDGE WALD: I just have one last question again. You suggested

10 that based upon your analysis, you don't feel that you could gain a strong

11 or a sure indication of what this conversation is about as relating to

12 primarily the disposal of the prisoners as opposed to a military combat

13 operation that might be dealing with the column; is that right?

14 A. That is correct, ma'am. What I've tried to do in all of my

15 analysis broadly, as just a matter of course as an analytical tool to,

16 when I look at either conversations in specific or analysis in general, if

17 there were any way to infer or presume that the activity that is being

18 discussed or the actions ascribed are military in manner as opposed to

19 anything potentially criminal, I've defaulted back to the military aspect

20 of that, and I tried to make that consistent throughout my entire

21 analytical process. So from my perspective, unless it's blatantly clear

22 that the topic of the discussion is criminal, I would default back to a

23 military interpretation of that.

24 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Let us have a

Page 5064

1 half-hour break now. Afterwards we'll have an hour and a half left which

2 will take us up until 2 o'clock. Thank you.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, you have the

6 floor. We may continue.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Mr. Butler, I apologise, but I want to take you back briefly to

9 Exhibit 561, the conversation between the Duty Officer Major Jokic and a

10 General Vilotic or perhaps Miletic from the Main Staff.

11 We've noted something that I want to ask you in particular about

12 on the second page. About the sixth line down "V" or Vilotic says:

13 "Everybody who can carry a gun must go up there.

14 "Yes, sir, Colonel ... General."

15 Then Vilotic says:

16 "Do as I order you."

17 And then Jokic says:

18 "Yes, sir, General."

19 And then:

20 "Everyone, everyone there has to be mobilised."

21 Now, that appears to involve the emergency going on in Zvornik,

22 but what I want to ask you about is if this is a Main Staff general, he is

23 making it very clear that he is giving a direct order to a brigade duty

24 officer. How do you account for that?

25 A. First within the specific context of the message, the prior

Page 5065

1 lines, "Well, check that out with Vasic. Everything has to be mobilised.

2 Sound the alert. Yes, sir. Everyone must carry a gun, and then, do as I

3 order," again I read that less as an order directive in nature and more of

4 affirmation that they have the authority to mobilise everybody that they

5 need to do the job.

6 Second, on a more broader aspect, I keep in mind that Major Jokic

7 is functioning as the duty officer. He's not empowered to do much of

8 anything. He is the focal point where all of the information comes to and

9 comes from as the representative of the commander, and in instances like

10 this, this information is passed to the commander or, in this case, Major

11 Obrenovic, the Chief of Staff.

12 So putting this all together in context, I don't look at this as

13 to be an authoritative order in nature representative of the Main Staff

14 assuming command of a subordinate brigade of another corps. And

15 consistently, one, throughout this series of intercepts and other

16 information we have where statements like this which, in isolation can be

17 taken as an order or directive in nature, in the larger context aren't

18 meant to be that and certainly are not meant to be a formal

19 resubordination or even a less formal grabbing control, if you were, of a

20 brigade.

21 Q. All right. Now let's go on to some of the military aspects of

22 some of the crimes charged. I want to take us now chronologically to the

23 first in a series of charged mass executions, and that is of Orahovac,

24 that testimony has established took place on the afternoon of 14 July and

25 through the evening hours.

Page 5066

1 We've got many Zvornik Brigade documents to go through related to

2 those charges, and first, if we -- before we get into those papers and

3 documents, can you provide the Court with a brief outline of the three

4 Zvornik Brigade units that these documents involve and just very briefly

5 how they fit into this Orahovac situation? And then we'll go through the

6 exhibits.

7 A. At Orahovac on 13, 14, and for some aspects 15 July 1995, we see

8 elements, or three separate elements of the Zvornik Brigade involved in

9 different parts of the mass -- of the first -- the holding of the

10 prisoners at the school and later the mass execution and subsequent burial

11 operation. Those assets include units and equipment from the Engineer

12 Company of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the Military Police Company of

13 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and from the 4th Battalion of the Zvornik

14 Infantry Brigade.

15 Relative to the dates we first see, in the late evening of 13

16 July, early morning 14, the appearance of the military police and their

17 remaining in the area through the day. We see, and again based on

18 survivor testimony, the presence of one Gojko Simic, who is identified as

19 a member of the 4th Infantry Battalion, who is believed by the survivor to

20 be leading the execution squad. And what the records will indicate is the

21 fact that he is the platoon Commander of the Heavy Weapons Platoon of the

22 4th Battalion. And as the executions occur throughout the 14th and burial

23 operations of the 15th, we see the involvement, in the records, to

24 corroborate the survivor accounts of the presence of engineer equipment

25 there first burying the bodies and that process continuing through the

Page 5067

1 15th of July 1995.

2 Q. All right. If we could go to the first exhibit, 566. If you

3 could place that briefly on the ELMO. This is a reproduction of part of a

4 map obtained from the Zvornik Brigade during the search; is that correct?

5 A. That is correct, sir.

6 Q. This is a blow-up of the Orahovac area. Could you just briefly

7 orient the Court on the location of the school as it's marked. If you

8 could just point to where the school is.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. And that's the little area marked "SK" for Skola. And if you

11 could mark the area of the charged execution site. There's a big black

12 dot there.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Now, if we could go to the next exhibit, 567/A. Tell us, if you

15 could -- could you put on the first page and just tell us what this is.

16 As I know, this is just a photocopy of it, but can you tell us what this

17 was photocopied from?

18 A. When the records of the 503rd Motorised before -- that the Zvornik

19 Infantry Brigade were seized, one of the documents was a book, a ledger

20 book which was used to chart the activities and the deliveries of a

21 vehicle of the Zvornik Brigade which, while the mission is not specified,

22 when you look in context of all the entries, it was a vehicle which

23 delivered food to various aspects of the brigade. What this is is the

24 translation of, at least in this case, one page of that book.

25 Q. Okay. Let's go to the relevant page, which is marked page 8 on

Page 5068

1 the English translation, and if you could go to the spot. Point out the

2 spot that you're gleaning information from, and tell us about what kind of

3 information you get from this.

4 A. The bookkeeping was not very well done from a standpoint of date

5 and time chronology, so there's not very much information which can be

6 gleaned from it.

7 The time that is, for me, or the information that's most relevant

8 on 13 July is a notation that a delivery was made at Orahovac to the

9 police. And this is the first indicator that I have that puts a police,

10 and I presume, military police because this is a military vehicle,

11 presence at Orahovac on 13 July. And while it's not legible in the copies

12 of the information, what I believe is that the time they're referring to

13 is the late evening of the 13th July, 1995.

14 Q. Can you put on your photocopy of the original?

15 A. As you can see, it's not consistently clear, and what I believe

16 happened is that even though these issues are 13 July and they are roughly

17 chronological, they're not totally. We start with the earlier ones and go

18 later, and what I believe is we turn the corner and this is 0100, and

19 we're looking at 0100 on 14 July.

20 As I say, I don't put very much weight into that because it is a

21 very ambiguous piece of information and it's not clear as to the exact

22 time, and I use it as an indicator just that on the 13th and 14th there

23 was a military police presence at Orahovac and that at least some food was

24 delivered to them.

25 Q. All right. Now I would like to take you to the next exhibit,

Page 5069

1 568/A.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: For this exhibit I would like to do something,

3 Mr. President, out of the ordinary and provide the Court with the actual

4 original document for your review as Mr. Butler discusses the photocopy,

5 because I think it's only by taking a close and careful look at the

6 original document that the information on it becomes most clear.

7 Now, we would like to retain this original document for the

8 archives, so that's why we haven't given it in an exhibit list and noted

9 it into evidence. But if I can provide that to you through the usher, and

10 of course feel free to take it out and look at it. It will be very clear

11 what there is to look at in a moment.

12 Q. Mr. Butler.

13 A. Again, as part of the material seized, one of the documents was

14 the personnel accountability register for the Military Police Company of

15 the Zvornik Brigade for July of 1995.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me one second. Mr. Harmon reminds me that

17 we want, of course, the Defence to be able to see this original document

18 also. They have had a photocopy of it, and they had a copy of the expert

19 report analysing the document, but for the record, I hear that they have

20 inspected it; I wasn't aware of that. Thank you.

21 Q. Okay, I'm sorry for the interruption, Mr. Butler. Go ahead.

22 A. This essentially is a daily accountability chart for the

23 individuals assigned to the Military Police Company. It reflects through

24 a series of characters the general locations where everyone is during the

25 day, and on the back of the original product that you have, you can see in

Page 5070

1 pencil the index that the author of this document put together to cover

2 this. The significance for me in the aspect of analysis and looking at

3 where it fits in is trying to determine the military police activities and

4 locations on 13, 14, and subsequent days of July 1995.

5 What you will be able to note on the original and which doesn't

6 show up clearly on the copy, hence the reason for the original, is that

7 for approximately 13 individuals, to include the company commander, on 14

8 July 1995, the previous location "O", which is listed on the back index of

9 Orahovac, has been poorly erased and changed to reflect "T", which stands

10 for "out on the terrain".

11 Q. Mr. Butler, just -- I noticed you have a copy of the original on

12 the ELMO. Could you -- I've just provided you a highlighted version of

13 those first two pages which are highlighting the names of the people who

14 had -- that we're most concerned about. Could you explain what the

15 highlights indicate, and especially as they relate to 14 July for those

16 people?

17 A. The highlights are those individuals who were initially listed in

18 the attendance record as being located at Orahovac on 14 July, and

19 subsequently had that location changed through erasure, an overwrite, to

20 reflect them being at a different location. Of note, the first name

21 Miomir Jasikovac, the Commander of the Military Police Company. And to

22 complete it, the second page, again showing an additional three

23 individuals.

24 Q. So what would be the total number of MPs at Orahovac by that

25 record on the 14th of July?

Page 5071












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the

13 French and the English transcripts.













Page 5072

1 A. The number would be nine military police and the military police

2 commander, total of ten.

3 Q. All right, you can take that off now.

4 Does this roster also include the three people that were in the

5 Opel Rekord of the exhibit that we looked at before dated 13 July?

6 A. Yes, sir, it does.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, the next exhibit, Your Honours, is Exhibit

8 569/A, which is an expert report filed 18/5/00, accepted by the Defence,

9 2/6/00, and is an expert report from the Dutch crime lab analysing the

10 erasure marks, and most importantly, the commander of the unit as also

11 having been erased on the 14th, because that's the one that is a little

12 bit harder to see with the naked eye from looking at the actual original

13 exhibit.

14 Q. And I would refer Mr. Butler to Exhibit 570/A. Can you tell us

15 briefly what this is and how it fits into your analysis?

16 A. This is a personnel-related order from the Zvornik Infantry

17 Brigade, again, verifying the previous appointment of Captain Miomir

18 Jasikovac as the Company Commander of the Military Police Company.

19 Q. Okay. Then going on to Exhibit 571/A, that is just a repeat of

20 the Opel Rekord record showing the military police going to the various

21 locations which was 543/A.

22 So we don't need to get into that any further, Mr. Butler, I think

23 we've discussed that. But before we get on to the infantry soldiers that

24 were at Orahovac, what do you make of the -- this information that we have

25 ten MPs, including their -- one of whom is the commander, in Orahovac at

Page 5073

1 14 July in the context of everything else that's going on?

2 A. Particularly with respect to the fact that on the 13th of July,

3 1995 and through the evening of the 13th, the military police, as we've

4 previously noted, were deployed to include one specific reference of the

5 commander being deployed on the terrain, to deal with the ambushes and the

6 Muslim military column coming to the north.

7 Sometime the late early -- or the late evening hours of the 13

8 July or the early morning hours of the 14 July, the military police

9 commander and nine of the military police soldiers were detailed to leave

10 those ambush locations and to proceed to Orahovac. Taken in time and

11 context there with what happened there with the first arrival of the

12 prisoners, that would make military sense. The prisoners starting to

13 arrive in the early morning hours of 14 July 1995, it would make sense for

14 the military police to be at the location either just prior to, or at

15 their arrival in order to ensure the security of the facility and to

16 maintain security over the prisoners as they came off the bus and went

17 into the facility.

18 Q. What significance, if any, do you give the fact that the commander

19 of the unit has been pulled out of the defence line of Zvornik to look

20 after prisoners in schools?

21 A. Somebody thought it important enough that he be there personally

22 to deal with the issue, and in the context of command and control of the

23 Zvornik Brigade on 14 July 1995, that somebody would have been Major

24 Dragan Obrenovic, the Chief of Staff.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And before going on to the next

Page 5074

1 segment, I would just briefly bring up some of the testimony to help put

2 this in context. If we go back to the testimony of one of the Orahovac

3 survivors, and I will provide his letter name shortly, if you recall, he

4 described as he's laying in the execution field, he hears a voice of a

5 person that he recognises, the voice; and he cannot see that person, but

6 he was -- testified that he was sure this was the voice of Gojko Simic.

7 He heard other soldiers referring to this person as Gojko, and he

8 recognised the voice as a person that he'd worked with for many years

9 named Gojko Simic. And by what he recalled, Gojko Simic was issuing

10 commands to the other soldiers to take the ammunition box and go on the

11 other side of the hill to continue. He also recalled the first names of

12 two other soldiers, one Vojo and one Risto, common Bosnian Serb names.

13 He also recalled the date of birth or the year of birth of Gojko

14 Simic, 1952, because it was his own; and he recalled that he worked with

15 Gojko Simic for I believe at least ten, ten years, I think more, at a

16 Belgrade construction company whose name we'll -- escapes me, but we'll

17 see it in the death record of Gojko Simic. It's something like Mitrovic.

18 Q. Now, with that factual background, Mr. Butler, did you go through

19 the various records at the Zvornik Brigade trying to identify information

20 on a person named Gojko Simic?

21 A. Yes, sir, I did.

22 Q. And can you start with Exhibit 572/A and tell us what that means

23 and what you found out about a Gojko Simic?

24 A. This document is consistent with a variety of other documents that

25 we have that pertains to how the Zvornik Infantry Brigade tracks

Page 5075

1 commanders and various personnel of the units as time goes by. It is --

2 essentially, it matches up the name of the individual with the position

3 number or billet number, if you will, against the formation where he is

4 assigned. This specific one deals with the 4th Infantry Battalion of the

5 Zvornik Brigade.

6 Q. And if you could go to page 6, we've provided the Court with the

7 entire roster, but if you can go to page 6, close to the bottom, page 6 on

8 the English translation.

9 A. This document indicates that in the 5th Infantry Company, Gojko

10 Lazar Simic, rank, Corporal, was previously designated the commander of

11 that formation. You will note his name is crossed out there.

12 Q. That would be of the 5th Infantry Company, 4th Battalion?

13 A. That is correct, sir.

14 Q. And the 4th Battalion -- well, let me ask, what battalion is

15 Orahovac in the area of?

16 A. The 4th Infantry Battalion, sir.

17 Q. Let's go to the next exhibit, 573/A, and then to page 6 -- excuse

18 me, page 6 of the English translation, number 22. What is this document,

19 and what does it tell us?

20 A. This document, if I can start on the first page very quickly,

21 again, the personnel order from the Zvornik, this time Light Infantry

22 Brigade as it was previously organised, reflecting the assignments of

23 individuals within the 4th Battalion.

24 Page 6, item number 22, reflecting the appointment of Gojko Simic

25 as the Fire Support Platoon Commander for the 4th Battalion.

Page 5076

1 Q. Can you date this appointment at all or can we -- is there any way

2 to determine the chronology of his rise through the ranks?

3 A. This specific document is dated 8 April 1994. However, with the

4 case of Gojko Simic, he has been associated with the Zvornik Infantry

5 Brigade since at least November 1992, the earliest times that we're able

6 to track him in the personnel rosters of the brigade. And as he goes

7 through the rank, essentially he's given positions of greater and greater

8 responsibility, first starting as a conscript, later company commander.

9 While this one, in fact, is a platoon commander position, it is the Heavy

10 Weapons Platoon directly subordinate to the battalion commander and

11 command. So he's consistently performing on a consistent track function

12 of a good performing soldier.

13 Q. The documents that you have, can you tell whether the documents

14 related to the 4th Battalion are complete, and was there some reason why

15 they may not be as complete as others?

16 A. The documents relating to the 4th Infantry Battalion specifically

17 are incomplete when compared to the battalion documents that we have for

18 the other eight battalions of the Zvornik Brigade at the time. In

19 researching why this was the case and as we'll be able to note through

20 this discussion on the conduct of the column's operations, one of the

21 things which occurred on 15 July 1995 was the Muslim column overran,

22 essentially captured and destroyed, the headquarters of the

23 4th Battalion.

24 In the process of doing so, and our interviews with some of the

25 Muslim survivors from that column who were, in fact there, noted that

Page 5077

1 anything that couldn't be carted away of military value, and most of these

2 records clearly didn't fall into that category, was destroyed or burned.

3 So when the war ended and the battalions, in effect, were demobilised and

4 their records moved to the parent brigade headquarters, the records of the

5 4th Battalion were very incomplete. So again acknowledging they're

6 incomplete and understanding why they're incomplete.

7 Q. Let's go to the next exhibit, 574/A. Is this another document

8 that you found in the Zvornik Brigade during the search and can you

9 explain what it is?

10 A. This document is the military death certificate for Gojko Simic.

11 We found it in the personnel office of the brigade, in binders with all of

12 the other death records and other injury records of the brigade.

13 The document reflects that Gojko Simic, a member of the Army of

14 Republika Srpska was killed defending or he was shot dead in the position

15 of Baljkovica, the village area, and that he was buried in Orahovac on

16 18 July 1995.

17 Q. Now, 16 July, Baljkovica, that's something you will discuss, but

18 briefly can you tell us, was there a large action there on the 16th?

19 A. Yes, sir. Again moving with the column through that date, the

20 extremely significant fighting on the 15 and 16 July. And when you look

21 at the casualty records of the brigade in time sequence with those dates,

22 the 15 and the 16 of July were the days which the units took the heaviest

23 casualties, most of those casualties reflecting to have occurred within

24 the 4th, the 6th and the 7th battalions.

25 Q. Now, I note this death record says that Mr. Simic was from

Page 5078

1 Oravac. Is Oravac related to Orahovac in any way as far as you can tell

2 from these records?

3 A. Yes, sir, it is.

4 Q. How so?

5 A. Again relative to a translation issue, I've discussed this issue

6 with various translators who have been able to put it in the language

7 context and have determined that we're talking about the same area.

8 Further, on subsequent pages of the record, other individuals write out

9 the village of Orahovac more clearly or in a different context again to

10 the same village. But based on both of those pieces of information and

11 researching the matter, I'm confident that we're talking one in the same.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I should note for the Court I believe I forgot to

13 mention but the witness also recalled his colleague from work, Gojko

14 Simic, was from Orahovac.

15 Q. Now, could we go in the next exhibit, which seems to be another

16 certificate, but this time instead of dated 27 July, this exhibit, 575/A,

17 is dated 18 August 1995 and would at first appear to have the same

18 information in it as the last. Is that correct?

19 A. That is correct, sir.

20 Q. However, when we get to page 3 of that exhibit, there's another

21 sheet of more information?

22 A. That is correct I sir.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would note the Court to line 3 employed and

24 where, the Ratko Mitrovic Construction Company in Belgrade, which I can

25 tell the Court is the same company that the survivor from Orahovac worked

Page 5079

1 for.

2 Q. And on line 7 his rank is listed as "Company Commander". Is that

3 consistent with the record that we'd previously seen?

4 A. In so much as the formation being subordinate to the battalion, I

5 can understand why they would call it the company commander as the

6 position.

7 Q. And going to Exhibit 576.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would just note this for the Court: This is the

9 photograph taken from a line-up -- not a line-up but a group of other

10 photographs of other soldiers that were killed. It was a page taken from

11 the Drinski Magazin, and the witness testified that this face on this

12 exhibit, 576, that he recalled as being the face of Gojko Simic.

13 Q. Mr. Butler, I know you've studied in document, and I know you

14 don't read Cyrillic, but does this in fact give the name of Gojko Simic

15 and his birth date?

16 A. This is that document. Yes, it does that.

17 Q. As well as, I believe, as Orahovac underneath it, or Oravac.

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Now, many months ago did I ask you and your investigative team to

20 look through the 4th Battalion records to determine whether or not there

21 were any soldiers in the 4th Battalion that might have the first name of

22 Vojo and Risto and be associated in any way with Orahovac?

23 A. Yes, you did, sir.

24 Q. All right. And can you turn to Exhibit 577/A. And does that

25 reflect the -- what you found in your review of the report or -- excuse

Page 5080

1 me -- of the records?

2 A. This reflects the listing of individuals who would have the first

3 name Vojo and Risto specific to the records that we possess for the former

4 5th Company of the Orahovac -- or the 5th Company of the Orahovac Company

5 of the 4th Battalion.

6 Q. So while there's many Vojos and Ristos, at the very least this

7 indicates that there were some Vojos and Ristos from Orahovac associated

8 with the 4th Battalion?

9 A. That is correct, sir.

10 Q. In the past, in 1995, were Gojko Simic and any of these people

11 actually associated with a unit in the 4th Battalion?

12 A. As I previously noted, they were associated with the former

13 5th Infantry Company of the 4th Battalion, and that 5th Infantry Company

14 was geographically associated with the village of Orahovac.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would point the Court to Exhibit 577/B as

16 the --

17 Q. In fact, Mr. Butler, can you take a look at that and tell us what

18 577/B is and how it relates to 577/A?

19 A. 577/B, and this is the cover, is a reflection of a personnel

20 roster that is maintained not on a daily basis but it is a logbook that

21 gives personnel data for all of the information assigned to the unit,

22 reflecting the individual's name, his national identity number, when he

23 joined the army, when he was assigned into the unit. As these records

24 continue on through the war, when they were killed or when they were

25 wounded, and then ending the war, when they were demobilised.

Page 5081

1 Q. All right. And these are just the documents that help support

2 577/A, which to make perfectly clear, is your staff and yourself's typed

3 up version of those -- or the typed up summary of what those records show

4 regarding my request to look for Vojos and Ristos?

5 A. That is correct, sir.

6 Q. So just to briefly summarise, if you have concluded that the

7 military police was in Orahovac on the 14th and Gojko Simic was there

8 with, I believe it was five -- something, five to ten soldiers, this would

9 have been an actual infantry unit from the Zvornik Brigade that was also

10 present.

11 A. That is correct, sir.

12 Q. Actually, by the testimony of the survivor, spending the afternoon

13 and the evening shooting Muslim prisoners.

14 A. That is correct, sir.

15 Q. And that would be consistent with him being in the 4th Battalion?

16 Orahovac is within the area of the 4th Battalion?

17 A. It is geographically consistent, yes, sir.

18 Q. Let's move on to the next subject, the engineering records, and if

19 you could go to Exhibit 578/A. Tell us what you've learned from your

20 study of this record, what it is, and what you can get from it.

21 A. Just as in the case of the cars, trucks, and other vehicles of the

22 Zvornik Infantry Brigade, heavy equipment and engineer equipment, their

23 time and fuel usage was accountable as well.

24 This document reflects that usage for the month of July 1995 for a

25 backhoe excavator, registration number C-3117. It notes that on 14 July

Page 5082

1 1995, 40 litres of fuel were provided to the vehicle.

2 Q. Does it provide the name of the driver/users?

3 A. Yes, it does, sir. The driver/user identified is Cvijetin

4 Ristanovic and Milos Mitrovic.

5 Q. And what do you get from the information side, the next page?

6 A. The operator's notation of activity for 14 July 1995 reflecting

7 work for the Army of Republika Srpska, the movement or route from base

8 which we believe is the base of the Engineer Company, to Orahovac and

9 return; the activity of trench digging; and the time, six hours.

10 Q. Are you aware, from the records, of any military use for trench

11 digging around Orahovac on the 14th of July?

12 A. There was no military engineer activity or no engineer activity

13 related to military use in Orahovac on 14 July.

14 Q. And is this piece of equipment roughly similar to that that was

15 described by one or more of the survivors?

16 A. Yes, sir, it is.

17 Q. All right. Going to Exhibit 579/A, this is a list of the

18 Engineering Company.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would just reference the Court to page 6 in

20 the English translation, number 9, Cvijetin Ristanovic, RGM, translated at

21 the bottom as construction machine operator, and Milos Mitrovic, also as a

22 construction -- machine construction operator for the Zvornik Brigade

23 Engineering Company, the Drina Corps.

24 Q. And if we could go on to Exhibit 580/A. This appears to be a

25 similar exhibit but for something called a Torpedo excavator. The same

Page 5083

1 driver/users. On the 14th of July it was digging trenches in Orahovac for

2 five hours. Is that correct?

3 A. That is correct, sir.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would also note the Court that on 16 July,

5 the same machine goes from the base to Kozluk and was digging trenches in

6 Kozluk for eight hours. Kozluk we'll be coming to, of course.

7 Q. And going to the next exhibit, 581. Mr. Butler, is it your

8 understanding that this machine resembles a Torpedo excavator?

9 A. Yes, sir, I believe that's the case.

10 Q. Did you learn that from one of the investigators that has more

11 knowledge in this than you do?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And this is a combination backhoe, which is noted from the front,

14 the big arm, the front of the photograph, that is. And then you can see

15 on the other side of this machine the scoop or loader that has -- which

16 this machine also has part of it.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, going to Exhibit 582, and Mr. President, I

18 understand this is quite a bit of leading, but perhaps we can get through

19 this if I can help provide some of the information as opposed to having

20 Mr. Butler just read it.

21 JUDGE RIAD: By the way, could you tell us what a Torpedo

22 excavator does?


24 Q. Mr. Butler, did the investigator that you spoke to give you any

25 idea about the uses of this kind of a combination excavator?

Page 5084












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the

13 French and the English transcripts.













Page 5085

1 A. As described, the function of the vehicle is to, first with the

2 spoon or bucket type, to break through the ground and dig, first narrow

3 trenches and larger ones, and with the scoop on the back or back-load

4 thing, move the dirt away; physically put it in a different location, or

5 from a soft pile, pick that dirt up and put it back in a given location.

6 A dual-use engineer vehicle.

7 JUDGE RIAD: It goes quite deep in the ground?

8 A. I'm not qualified to give you the specifics on that type of stuff,

9 sir.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.


12 Q. Mr. Butler, can this loader thing, not the arm, can it load up

13 dirt and actually load it and drop it in the back of a big truck for

14 transport?

15 A. Yes, sir, it can.

16 Q. All right. Let's go to Exhibit 582/A, which is a log for a TAM

17 75. What is that?

18 A. A TAM 75 is a standard military vehicle. It's designed for

19 carrying some personnel, small amounts of cargo. Not extremely large.

20 Q. And going on to the next -- well, staying on that front page, the

21 driver/user is Ostoja Stanojevic. Do you recall running his name through

22 the records to find out where he came from?

23 A. I believe that this individual is also associated with the -- or a

24 member of the Engineer Company of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

25 Q. And noting the next page of this document for 14 July, 15 July, 16

Page 5086

1 July, 17 July, can you, again just briefly, talk to us about these

2 locations and how you think they're relevant to your analysis?

3 A. In sequence of travel, starting on 14 July, a series of two trips

4 -- three trips is ascribed to Orahovac and return to base where they stop

5 in Zvornik. Additional trips to Orahovac on the 15th. On the 16th, we

6 see one or two trips to Orahovac, and now we start seeing Kozluk. On 17,

7 Kula, and then back to base; and specifically in the sense of the engineer

8 activities that we know occurred in Orahovac and at Kozluk, clearly this

9 vehicle running back and forth between the multiple engineer activities,

10 perhaps to provide fuel, water, or other needed material.

11 Q. Future records will show that there was more digging going on in

12 Orahovac on the 15th and 16th; and you've already spoke of Kula, but we'll

13 get to Kula, and we can wait there.

14 Now, if we can go to Exhibit 583/A. This is the engineering

15 roster, and I can direct the Court to what is in the English translation

16 page 6, number 9, Ostoja Stanojevic, and his job as driver.

17 And then if we could go to Exhibit 584/A, and if you could put

18 that on the ELMO. This is a new document, and perhaps you should put the

19 handwritten version on first just to give a feel for what this is and

20 where this was found.

21 A. The document in question is what I refer to as the engineer daily

22 orders journal. One of the military requirements within the VRS, and

23 again a carryover from the former JNA, was the fact that orders were to be

24 written down as received, and part of the context in this one is the daily

25 orders for the unit were posted in this document, and underneath, signed

Page 5087

1 by the commander. What this document is in its entirety is for a

2 four-month period, the daily orders as understood by the Engineer Company

3 of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, and they are updated on a daily basis.

4 This specific document was found in the engineer staff office of

5 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade or the 503rd Motorised Brigade during the OTP

6 search.

7 Q. Could you go back to the English translation, and under the task

8 list, tell us the relevancy of the information?

9 A. It discusses the group tasks. Line one, "pioneers to work in the

10 area of Petkovci." Pioneers in this sense, combat engineers who lay

11 mines, do battlefield-related engineer tasks, very light engineers.

12 Number two, "power saw operators working in the area of Petkovci." Number

13 three, reflecting the fact that some of the engineers are on ambush

14 position on the orders of the brigade Chief of Staff. Number four, "work

15 with the BGH 700," a specific engineer vehicle at Orahovac. Five, "work

16 with the ULT 220," again, another ditch-digger, bucket-loader type, at

17 Orahovac. Item 6, "work with an ULT at Petkovci," and item 7, "work with

18 excavator at Petkovci." And at the bottom, the signature, Block 4, the

19 company commander, Captain Dragan Jevtic.

20 Q. Now, as we'll see in the next few pages, the BGH 700 is a big

21 backhoe; is that right?

22 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

23 Q. An ULT 220 is a big loader?

24 A. Yes, sir, that is correct.

25 Q. Now, does this engineering log provide information related to our

Page 5088

1 crime scenes for July 13th and 14th? I noticed this is 15 July.

2 A. One of the aspects when you look at this document and the pattern

3 that becomes clear is that the orders were posted sometime early in the

4 morning, the signature was fixed, and activities which occurred after that

5 during the day were reflected in the next day's posting of orders.

6 In a sense, when you look at the order for 14 July 1995, you do

7 not see a reflection of the work of the engineer equipment at Orahovac and

8 Petkovci, even though we understand from witness and survivor accounts

9 that certainly by the late afternoon of the 14th, the engineer equipment

10 was operating, corroborated by the vehicle utilisation records of that, as

11 well as the late evening, early morning hours of 15 July where witnesses

12 note engineer equipment operating subsequent to the execution at the foot

13 of the dam. In that respect, the orders journal is approximately one day

14 behind the actual series of events as they occur.

15 Q. Okay. And if we could go to Exhibit 585, this is a diagram the

16 investigation -- or a brochure that the investigation was able to find on

17 the BGH 600. And Mr. Butler, what did the investigator tell you about the

18 difference between the BGH 600 and the BGH 700?

19 A. Essentially, the difference in designation reflects the capacity

20 of the front bucket in cubic centimetres.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Going to Exhibit 586, this is a

22 photograph that investigators took of a BGH 600 in the Tuzla area, not

23 meant to be related in any way to the charged offences, but just to give

24 you an idea of an actual BGH machine.

25 Going to Exhibit 587, this is also a picture taken by

Page 5089

1 investigators of an ULT 220, as you can see written on the right-hand side

2 of the machine near the person's right hand. Again, this is in the Tuzla

3 area, not meant to the associated with the crime scene. You'll note the

4 bucket on the front of this has no teeth, but you may recall from the

5 archaeological testimony that a lot of teeth, teeth marks were seen on

6 various crimes, and so the investigation found a brochure for an ULT 200,

7 and that's what the next exhibit is, 588, showing you an ULT with teeth.

8 Q. And Mr. Butler, were you informed by the investigator what the

9 difference between an ULT 200 is and an ULT 220?

10 A. In this instance, the number designator 200 and 220 reflects the

11 difference in engineer horsepower.

12 Q. And let's go to the next exhibit, 589/A, appears to be another

13 vehicle log for an ULT 220 backhoe excavator, is what they're calling it

14 now -- that's the translation in English -- with a driver Veljko

15 Kovacevic.

16 Now, there's also a notation of "construction machine owned by

17 Birac Holding." Is that something new to these logs, compared to the last

18 logs that we were looking at, is what I mean?

19 A. This is new in that respect, reflecting the ownership of the

20 vehicle is not with the army, but that the ownership of the vehicle

21 belongs to the Birac Holding Company, which is a large, state-owned

22 company in the Zvornik area.

23 Q. And did you run the name Veljko Kovacevic through the Zvornik

24 Brigade army records?

25 A. I believe that we checked this name, and I do not recall exactly,

Page 5090

1 but I don't believe he is a member of the brigade.

2 Q. Is that consistent with this being a machine owned by someone

3 else?

4 A. Yes, it is, sir.

5 Q. Let's go to the next page that actually shows the substance of

6 what was going on, and if you could look at the date 15 July, also --

7 there's also a heading "Working For", and what is that? What's the

8 significance of that?

9 A. Again, a reflection that the vehicle is performing tasks under the

10 direction of the army.

11 Q. And it was digging trenches in Orahovac for five hours on the 15th

12 of July?

13 A. That is correct, sir.

14 Q. Are you aware of any other engineering activity aside from the

15 area that had been discussed by survivors going on in the Orahovac area on

16 the 15th of July?

17 A. With respect to the heavy equipment and the digging activity, the

18 only other activity occurring at 15 July -- on 15 July 1995 would have

19 been that engineer activity associated with the Petkovci execution site.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we're not there yet, but I note on this

21 there's a 17 July, also working for the VRS, and it says, "Digging

22 trenches in Branjevo," and it's got 8.5 hours. And we'll be coming to

23 another -- an exhibit when we get to Branjevo of a large -- what appears

24 to be a large piece of excavating equipment near a big hole on 17 July at

25 Branjevo Farm.

Page 5091

1 Q. Right. If we could go to the next exhibit, 590. Is this a

2 blow-up of the -- one of the large VRS maps that was captured from the

3 Zvornik Brigade?

4 A. Yes, sir, it is.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would call the Court's attention to the word

6 vertically written as Petkovci, P-e-t-k-o-v-c-i, right across the

7 reservoir.

8 Q. Can you orient the Court on where the crime scene as alleged in

9 the indictment is?

10 A. The crime scene is located at the foot of the dam here, and the

11 holding area is off the road, off the side of the map.

12 Q. Briefly before going into some more of these records, militarily

13 on the 14th and 15th at both Orahovac and the Petkovci dam area, was the

14 column up and around those particular areas at that time?

15 A. When you track the movement sequence of the column based on the

16 VRS reporting of the column and place it by time, one of the things that

17 appears is that at the beginning of the Orahovac executions which started

18 in the early afternoon, the column was significantly south of Orahovac.

19 As the day and evening wore on, the column moved in a northwesterly

20 direction which brought it closer to Orahovac.

21 As the witness and survivors from Orahovac recount, somewhere

22 around midnight, all of the engineer activity ceased. The executions were

23 completed and the burial activity completed for that day. Bringing that

24 back to the location of the column, at that time the column was

25 approximately -- or elements of the column were approximately four

Page 5092

1 kilometers south of Orahovac, or southeast more accurately.

2 More importantly, looking at the terrain as rugged and

3 cross-compartmented as it is, they were one valley over as well. So there

4 was not a direct access, so to speak, from where the column was located,

5 and the execution sites at Orahovac. Further, as you can note on the map,

6 Petkovci, the dam specifically, is located another five, six miles

7 straight line -- or six kilometers, excuse me, in straight line distance

8 to the north of Orahovac. And again, that distance also does not reflect

9 the terrain isolation aspect.

10 So in these regards, there was no combat activity which is related

11 to these physical locations of the executions at the time the executions

12 took place.

13 Q. We've seen heavy equipment logs for Orahovac as well as Branjevo

14 and Kozluk. Do we have any actual vehicle logs reflecting work done at

15 Petkovci, at the dam, during the time period of the 15th, 16th, 17th?

16 A. No, sir, we do not.

17 Q. But we did see engineering log records showing heavy equipment,

18 particularly described, doing work at Petkovci. How do you explain that

19 you've got a log entry in the engineering log but you don't have a vehicle

20 log like you did for Orahovac?

21 A. The issue of that, when we looked through that, particularly from

22 the analytical perspective and as the investigation worked into that issue

23 as well, what we found was that particularly in the Zvornik area -- it was

24 a former mining area -- there was a good number -- a good deal of engineer

25 equipment.

Page 5093

1 What we have, essentially, is the fact that no engineer equipment

2 assigned to or in the case of the one issue contracted or immediately on

3 long-term loan to the army being used at the Petkovci site. What we do

4 have is an awareness by the Engineer Company Commander that engineer

5 equipment which he is accounting for in his log and implying that he's

6 responsible for is operating at that location at that time.

7 The best theory that I could come up with that is supportable is

8 that such equipment was requisitioned on an immediate basis from the local

9 community, and, again, that wouldn't have been too difficult being most of

10 the large firms were state-owned and used to deal with the issue of

11 burying the bodies. This is specifically borne out in the case of the

12 BGH 700, where we have multiple instances of, one, that vehicle being used

13 by the army, that specific vehicle not showing up on listings of vehicles

14 owned by the army but army fuel being put in it at various points in

15 time.

16 So while I'm not able to conclude that the engineer equipment at

17 Petkovci belonged to the army and specifically belonged to the Zvornik

18 Brigade's Engineer Company, the fact that in the Engineer Company orders

19 book the Engineer Company Commander is reflecting his knowledge of their

20 usage in his orders thing or in his orders listing leads me to conclude

21 that the vehicles are operating under army control and specifically under

22 the control of the Commander of the Engineer Company.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the Court may recall the testimony of the two

24 dam survivors. The morning after, when the sun rose, they saw heavy

25 equipment loading bodies onto some kind of a trailer that were taken away

Page 5094

1 in some direction.

2 Q. Mr. Butler, let's go to some 6th Battalion records, and that is

3 the battalion in the area of the Petkovci dam. That would be Exhibit

4 number 591/A. It's a TAM-75, another one of these little military trucks

5 that you mentioned. Can that carry people?

6 A. Yes, sir, it can.

7 Q. In the back? How would it do it?

8 A. It's a light cargo truck. I mean relatively open bed. You could

9 just carry people in there.

10 Q. All right. And if you can go to the second page of that document,

11 and let's go to 15 July. First of all, it's under the "Working For"

12 section. Is says "6 PB." What does "PB" mean?

13 A. "PB," translated, is "Infantry Battalion."

14 Q. So 6th Infantry Battalion.

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. Then it says "Petkovci/Brana/Petkovci." What does "Brana" mean?

17 A. As translated, "Brana" means "dam."

18 Q. Four journeys, 1 plus 8 people. And what's the "35 achieved

19 TKMPK," if you know?

20 A. I'm not sure of the answer to that one. We've not been able to

21 get a technical explanation.

22 Q. Now, 15 July, from the testimony, was a day there were hundreds

23 and hundreds of bodies lying on the plateau of the dam, being put onto a

24 flatbed. Are you aware of any other 6th Battalion military activity or

25 anything that would have necessitated this kind of four journeys back and

Page 5095

1 forth from Petkovci to the dam on 15 July?

2 A. No, sir, I'm not.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next exhibit, which I believe is the roster

4 for the two people mentioned, Dragomir Topolovic and Vlado Josic, the

5 people that were the driver/users of that TAM 75. Do you see them noted

6 on those -- on that roster?

7 A. Members of the Logistics Platoon of the 6th Infantry Battalion.

8 Q. Is there one that's in some kind of a command role, do you

9 recall? I may be wrong about that. I believe --

10 A. One of them identified again --

11 Q. Dragomir Topolovic is identified as a driver?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And Vlado Josic. Do you see Vlado Josic anywhere? Well, we'll --

14 A. Vlado is not on this specific listing.

15 Q. We'll track down Mr. Josic.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I note it's just about 2.00 p.m.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, it is 2.00. So I

18 think we have to adjourn and have a rather long break for this case. I

19 should still like to remind you -- and I am addressing Mr. Harmon in the

20 first place -- that we agree to finish this on the 28th of July. So we

21 must do everything to achieve that.

22 We're not going to have a holiday, we'll be working, but for the

23 time being, have a good weekend and successful work.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

25 2 p.m. to be reconvened on Monday, the 28th day of

Page 5096

1 July, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.

























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