Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6910

1 Friday, 3 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. I would like to greet the parties and

6 all those contributing to our trial. Mr. Harmon.

7 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Judge Riad, Judge Wald, my colleagues.

8 Good morning. I wanted to raise with the Court a correction in the record

9 that I thought was important to make now, and it relates to the testimony

10 of General Krstic on 31st of October, 2000. In his testimony, my

11 colleague, Mr. McCloskey, asked General Krstic to read Prosecutor's

12 Exhibit 467B, which was a Bosnian language handwritten copy of an order,

13 and it -- what was read into the record was the following: "We wish to

14 inform you --" I'm sorry. What was translated was the following:

15 "We wish to inform you that we are able to ensure the presence of

16 members of the command and representatives of the municipal authorities

17 for the official farewell for General Zivanovic, the outgoing commander of

18 the Drina Corps, on 23rd of June, 1995, at 1300 hours."

19 The word "outgoing" was not correctly translated for -- as General

20 Krstic was reading the document. The correct translation of the word that

21 General Krstic read is "hitherto," and I want to insert -- bring Your

22 Honours' attention to that point. The head of the Language Service

23 Section, Maja Drazenovic-Carrieri, has reviewed the document again. She

24 has filed, at my request, a core addendum. She has filed that with the

25 Registrar's Office on the 1st of November, 2000. In addition, I have

Page 6911

1 discussed this matter with my colleagues, and they have no disagreement

2 with what I am saying in respect of Prosecutor's Exhibit 476 [sic] and the

3 correct translation of that document. I wanted to bring that to Your

4 Honours' attention before we conclude -- before we start.

5 JUDGE WALD: Is that 467 or 476?

6 MR. HARMON: If I said "476," I misspoke. It's 467, 467B, and the

7 English language version is 467A. And the translation that was submitted

8 is the correct translation. Thank you.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Judge Riad, Judge Wald. With your

11 leave, Judge Riad, we can continue now with the cross-examination of

12 Witness DA.

13 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] Yes, please, Mr. Cayley.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 WITNESS: WITNESS DA [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness DA. Mr. Cayley, the

19 Prosecutor, will continue asking questions.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Cayley: [Continued]

22 Q. Good morning, Witness DA.

23 A. Good morning.

24 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Usher, I think perhaps the witness cannot hear

25 us. Can you ensure that his headphones are on the right channel?

Page 6912

1 Q. Can you hear me now?

2 A. Yes. It's fine now.

3 Q. Now, Witness, we left off yesterday speaking about the indictment

4 against Mr. Karadzic and General Mladic. Now, I want to move ahead in

5 time and I want you to think about the 12th of July of 1995, when I think

6 you arrived at the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica; is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What time did you arrive at the Vlasenica headquarters? Would it

9 be between 1700 and 1800 hours in the early evening?

10 A. Later, around 2000 hours.

11 Q. And I think when you arrived there, you stated that Colonel Jokic

12 [phoen] was the duty officer in the Operations Centre; is that correct?

13 A. Colonel Jocic, and not Jokic.

14 Q. Sorry. It's my pronunciation. And that was Colonel Predrag

15 Jocic?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. And I think I'm correct in saying that you also saw Major Pajcic

18 [phoen] and, for a brief period of time, General Zivanovic?

19 A. Yes. Major Pajic, not Pajcic.

20 Q. And General Zivanovic?

21 A. Yes, briefly.

22 Q. Now, you were a member of the Drina Corps staff for a considerable

23 period of time, and you knew all of the members of the staff while you

24 were working there, didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6913

1 Q. I'd like to ask you, on that evening, the other members of staff

2 from the Command that you recall seeing. I'll simply do it like a

3 shopping list and I'll ask you the names and you can say yes or no whether

4 you recall seeing them in the headquarters.

5 Now, the first officer is Colonel Milenko Lazic, who was the Chief

6 of Operations of the Drina Corps. Was he at the headquarters on the 12th

7 of July?

8 A. I didn't see him.

9 Q. Colonel Slavko Ognjenovic, the Operations officer from the former

10 Bratunac Brigade?

11 A. Ognjenovic.

12 Q. Was he there on the evening of the 12th of July?

13 A. I don't remember seeing Ognjenovic.

14 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Svetozar Kosoric, was he in the headquarters on

15 that evening? Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, you will recall, was the

16 assistant within the Intelligence Department of the Drina Corps staff.

17 A. I know him. I didn't see him -- no, I don't remember whether I

18 saw him. I told you the people I remember seeing, because I was there

19 very briefly, I was in a hurry to go to the Press Centre to have a bath

20 because I was coming from the mountains, and it seems to me that I briefly

21 saw the men and the names of the people I mentioned at the beginning;

22 Jocic, Pajic, several soldiers from the Communications Centre, two of my

23 associates from the Press Centre, and the Commander Zivanovic. That was

24 it, as far as I can remember, but it was a long time ago.

25 Q. Let me try and refresh your memory with some names. As you know,

Page 6914

1 a military headquarters is a busy place; people are moving around. If I

2 give you the name, you might remember it.

3 Major Pavle Golic, did you see him on the evening of the 12th of

4 July?

5 A. I did not see Pajo Golic.

6 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Mirko Petrovic -- I'm sorry, Lieutenant Mirko

7 Petrovic?

8 A. I didn't see Petrovic either.

9 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Radenko Jovicic? He was head of the Personnel

10 and Administrative Section.

11 A. I didn't drop in at his office; I didn't see him.

12 Q. Your boss, Colonel Cerovic, was he there?

13 A. He was on sick leave at the time in Belgrade.

14 Q. Colonel Acamovic, he was the Assistant Commander for Rear

15 Services, was he there on the 12th of July in the headquarters?

16 A. They were on the floor above. I didn't go to see them so I don't

17 know whether he was in the Command or not.

18 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic, who you'll recall was the

19 Transportation officer, was he in the headquarters on that evening?

20 A. I didn't see him either.

21 Q. Did you see Major Basevic, who was the Chief of Technical

22 Services? Was he there on the 12th of July?

23 A. All their offices were on the floor above so I didn't go there, I

24 didn't have any contact with them.

25 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Ljubo Sobot, he was the Chief of Rear Area

Page 6915

1 Operations. Did you see him there on the 12th of July?

2 A. Sobot. I didn't see Sobot either. They were all on the floor

3 above.

4 Q. Bearing in mind, Witness, that people do move around within a

5 military headquarters and don't constantly stay in their office.

6 Lieutenant Marijanovic, who worked for Colonel Cerovic, I think

7 he's dead now but he worked within your section.

8 A. Yes, he worked in the Legal Affairs Department. He was there. We

9 did come across one another somewhere there.

10 Q. Lieutenant Colonel Nedo Blagojevic, he was the Chief of

11 Communications for the Drina Corps. Was he in on the 12th of July?

12 A. I don't remember seeing Blagojevic.

13 Q. Lieutenant, and I don't know the first name of this individual,

14 either Gasevic or Gavric, he was the assistant to the administrative

15 officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jovicic.

16 A. I know who you are referring to but I didn't see him. We didn't

17 run into each other.

18 Q. Was it Gavric or Gasevic?

19 A. Gasevic. I don't remember his first name. He joined the Corps

20 later. I've forgotten it.

21 Q. Colonel Ignjat Milanovic, was he in the headquarters on the 12th

22 of July? You know him.

23 A. I do know Milanovic. I didn't see him at the headquarters.

24 Q. What was his job on the Staff; do you recall?

25 A. Milanovic?

Page 6916

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. He was head of the Air Defence Service, I think it's called.

3 Q. Do you recall seeing Major Petrovic, who was the Commander of the

4 Military Police Battalion of the Drina Corps?

5 A. They were housed in a different building about 100 metres away

6 from headquarters, and I didn't go there.

7 Q. Was Major Ratko Tisma there? He was the Quartermaster.

8 A. I didn't see Tisma either.

9 Q. Colonel or Major Hendryk Jevicki, also working in the

10 Quartermaster Department, do you recall anybody of that name?

11 A. Yes, I do know him. He worked in the Quartermaster Service. I

12 didn't see him in our building.

13 Q. Lastly, did you see a military police officer by the name of Teso

14 Tesic?

15 A. No. The military police also was about 100 metres away from our

16 building and I didn't go there.

17 Q. Now, I think I'm right in saying that that evening you spent at

18 the Corps in Vlasenica, you stayed at the Corps in Vlasenica; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Whereabouts did you stay that night?

22 A. In my room, where I would regularly spend the night; though I

23 spent most of my time in the Press Centre premises which were not in the

24 same building as the Corps Command.

25 Q. And the room that you spent the night in was in the Corps

Page 6917

1 headquarters?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Which floor was it on? Was it on the ground floor or first floor?

4 A. On the first floor.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned that a number of these officers worked on the

6 first floor. Did you see any of them at all when you spent the night

7 there? Did you have any contact with anybody other than the people that

8 you've spoken about?

9 A. No. As it was late, I had a shower, prepared clean clothing

10 because I knew that, in the morning, I had to leave. I just exchanged a

11 few words with my colleagues from the Press Centre, I called up my family

12 -- we hadn't been in touch for some time -- and that was all.

13 Q. Was the headquarters busy with work at that time?

14 A. In my sector, no.

15 Q. The rest of the headquarters?

16 A. I really didn't have any insight. As I said, I spent very little

17 time there. I didn't notice any particular haste among the people working

18 there. They were doing their regular job.

19 Q. But you must have passed by the offices of these other staff

20 officers and noticed whether people were moving around inside these

21 offices, whether people were coming out of offices.

22 A. It was our custom not to move about too much around headquarters.

23 Q. How long had you been away for from the Vlasenica headquarters?

24 A. I had been away for about ten days and more at the time. But

25 anyway, I moved about frequently, so it was nothing unusual.

Page 6918

1 Q. So you had been away for ten days and you made absolutely no

2 effort to have any contacts with any of these other officers within the

3 headquarters, all people that you knew, all people that were your military

4 colleagues?

5 A. Cerovic, who was my boss, was not there. General Zivanovic

6 devoted very little time for his conversation with me. The only person I

7 spoke to for a little longer was the late Marijanovic and my associates in

8 the Press Centre.

9 Q. Is it not customary within military headquarters for staff

10 officers to have contact with officers from other branches within the

11 headquarters with whom they work?

12 A. It is customary to engage in regular, normal conversations. But

13 you must understand: I came late. People wanted to rest. And I too had

14 my own plans, that is, to have a shower and change, to call up my family.

15 And time flies.

16 Q. So in essence, other than the officers that you mentioned, you had

17 absolutely no sight or contact with any of the 18-odd staff officers that

18 I've mentioned from the headquarters on that evening?

19 A. No. Only with the people I mentioned having seen there.

20 Q. Let's now move to the 13th of July. In the morning you met

21 General Krstic. Whereabouts did you meet General Krstic that morning?

22 A. In front of his office, in front of the office of the Chief of

23 Staff.

24 Q. Within the headquarters?

25 A. Yes. In the building of the command.

Page 6919

1 Q. What floor is the Chief of Staff's office located on?

2 A. First floor.

3 Q. So you came out of the room in which you had been sleeping and

4 went straight to General Krstic's office on the first floor?

5 A. Not the office, but the corridor in front of the office. It's

6 about 50 metres away from my own office.

7 Q. And nobody else, I assume, was out in the corridor; it was

8 completely empty, apart from General Krstic?

9 A. I don't remember.

10 Q. Who else was in the headquarters on that morning that you can

11 recall? Was General Krstic there by himself in the headquarters?

12 A. No. Jocic was there still there. He still hadn't handed over his

13 duties to the duty officer. Major Pajic. I asked -- I saw the cooks, the

14 communications people who were going up to the restaurant and the

15 communications centre.

16 Q. So the only --

17 A. That was it.

18 Q. The only people you saw were General Krstic; the paymaster, Major

19 Pajic; the duty officer, Colonel Jokic [phoen]; and then the cooks and

20 some signallers. Those are the only people that you saw that morning?

21 A. Jocic. Yes, yes. That would be it. Yes. Those were the people

22 that I saw. Because I was there for a brief space of time. I was in a

23 hurry to get to Sokolac on assignment.

24 Q. Where was everybody else that morning, Witness?

25 A. Probably on assignment.

Page 6920

1 Q. Out of the headquarters?

2 A. I didn't see them if they were -- unless they were in their

3 offices. But as I say, I didn't go to the upper floor, because that was

4 where the Rear Services were and the Traffic and Communication Department

5 and the other services, up on the upper storey.

6 Q. How many floors are there in the headquarters?

7 A. Three or four.

8 Q. Three or four?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And on the evening of the 12th and the morning of the 13th, am I

11 right in saying you were only on the ground floor and first floor; you

12 limited yourself to those two floors?

13 A. Yes. Yes. And in the neighbouring building, on the premises of

14 the Press Centre. That was the area I moved around. It was an area of

15 some -- a circumference of 100 metres, let's say.

16 Q. To get from each floor there were a set of stairs; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes. Usually there's a link by means of stairs.

19 Q. And in order for you to get from the ground floor to the first

20 floor, you went up and down the stairs; is that right?

21 A. Yes, normally, in the normal way, customary way. How else would I

22 move around?

23 Q. And the people on the third and fourth floor that were in the

24 headquarters would also be using the staircase to go up and down the

25 building; is that right?

Page 6921

1 A. There was no other communication.

2 Q. When you were on the staircase, did you see any members of the

3 staff of the headquarters, apart from the three officers that you've

4 mentioned?

5 A. I don't remember meeting anyone. It wasn't usual for us to move

6 around. The commander asked us to do our work without moving around the

7 corridors and hallways much, except during lunchtime and dinnertime, when

8 we had to go to the restaurant.

9 Q. But I'm right in saying, am I not, Witness, that a staff

10 headquarters works by the various bodies actually communicating with each

11 other in the planning and execution of an operation?

12 A. Of course.

13 Q. So if the directive from the commander was that you had to stay in

14 your office except at lunchtime or dinner, how did you communicate with

15 the other staff branches?

16 A. Well, when the need arose, we would go over to each other, to

17 finish off our tasks, assignments.

18 Q. So it was normal within the headquarters for members of the staff

19 to move around?

20 A. Why not? When there was the need to do so.

21 Q. Now, as you know, this was a busy time for the headquarters, and I

22 put it to you that it's simply inconceivable that you only saw three

23 officers from the headquarters on the 12th and 13th of July.

24 A. But that's how it was. I spent there for a short -- I spent a

25 short space of time there. I spent far longer in a telephone conversation

Page 6922

1 with the members of my family and the usual things you do when you're

2 preparing for your activities the next day.

3 Q. On the 13th of July of 1995, was there any important news being

4 discussed within the headquarters?

5 A. My associates in the Press Centre told me that the operation

6 around Srebrenica was winding up, and they were excited, they were

7 pleased. They asked me what had happened on the front lines, where I had

8 been with the units that I led at Treskavica, and I told them about what I

9 knew: the positions of my own unit, the attacks, the casualties, our

10 fighters who had succumbed, people we knew. They were interested in that,

11 in hearing about that, and they helped me prepare some presents and some

12 things that we were to take with us to Treskavica, some items.

13 Q. Did you hear any news that morning that a column of able-bodied

14 men, Muslims, had broken out of the enclave and were trying to make their

15 way towards Tuzla?

16 A. My associates in the Press Centre told me that they had heard over

17 the radio. And I asked them whether there was any official confirmation

18 of that, and they said no, they didn't. And that's where it ended. To be

19 quite frank, I didn't actually believe that it was all true, that

20 everything one heard over the radio was true, or the information by the

21 Muslim radio. We didn't comment much about that topic.

22 Q. But that morning the Drina Corps headquarters received an order

23 from General Gvero, who was the assistant commander for moral and legal

24 affairs in the Main Staff, didn't they; they received an order in respect

25 of this column of Muslims who were leaving Srebrenica?

Page 6923

1 A. I'm not acquainted with the order. Probably, because General

2 Gvero was not able to contact -- that is to say, he didn't actually know

3 that I was at the command headquarters -- corps headquarters, so I really

4 don't know anything about that order.

5 Q. But you worked in the same branch as him, Witness, didn't you?

6 A. That's true, but General Gvero knows that I was at Treskavica and

7 not Vlasenica.

8 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 532.

10 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. The quality of the copy is not very good.

11 Now, you can read it through briefly, but I'm principally interested in

12 the first paragraph prior to the order. But if you wish, you can read

13 it. Let me know when you're familiar with it.

14 Now, you've read it and you see that news comes into the

15 headquarters that hardened criminals and cutthroats who will stop at

16 nothing in order to avoid capture and escape to the Muslim-controlled

17 territory are making their way out of the enclave.

18 Now, you will agree with me that when this order, this news,

19 reached the headquarters, people must have been pretty excited and had

20 been moving around quickly in order to do something about this; don't you

21 agree with that?

22 A. I don't know when this order arrived. I see it for the first

23 time. And I maintain that in the headquarters and around the headquarters

24 there was not too much excitement at all. In fact, I didn't notice any

25 particular commotion.

Page 6924

1 Q. So could you explain to the Judges again the only information that

2 you had on the morning of the 13th of July about the column of able-bodied

3 men leaving the enclave?

4 A. I'll repeat: My associates in the Press Centre conveyed the news

5 to me from Muslim radio, broadcast over Muslim radio, that several

6 thousand able-bodied men were allegedly breaking through towards Kladanj.

7 As I say, I didn't actually believe the truthfulness of that report

8 because during those days everything -- practically everything that was

9 happening on the battlefront was tendentiously reported on, and I

10 personally did not believe that it was true, under quotation marks.

11 Q. But it's a rumour that, you would agree with me as a Staff officer

12 at a military headquarters, people would check out and see whether or not

13 it was true?

14 A. Had I spent some time at the headquarters, I would quite certainly

15 have checked it out. But as I say, I was moving around and my priority

16 was to execute the order by the Corps Commander and Chief of Staff.

17 Q. Did you discuss the matter with General Krstic?

18 A. No. No.

19 Q. Do you know whether he knew about it at this time? Did he know

20 that the Muslim column had broken out?

21 A. He didn't say anything to me. Our conversation focused on my

22 duties and responsibilities in keeping up morale and combat-readiness of

23 the brigade at Treskavica.

24 Q. So am I fair in saying that, at this point in time, the only

25 information that you had about the events in Srebrenica was your knowledge

Page 6925

1 of the previous day of the headquarters mobilising transport for the

2 movement of the refugees, and then this piece of information heard on the

3 radio about the column breaking out towards Kladanj? That's the only

4 information that you had on the morning of the 13th of July about

5 Srebrenica.

6 A. Yes, those are the only two pieces of information which I had

7 about all the events.

8 Q. And because you only saw three other officers in the headquarters,

9 of course, naturally, you are unable to elicit any more information from

10 other Staff officers, from operational Staff officers?

11 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't even ask Jocic. I saw him going

12 about his own business, and in the Operations Centre, we spent little time

13 there unless we were just on duty there.

14 Q. Am I right in saying you'd also been told that the Srebrenica

15 operation was winding down, that it was complete, by the 13th of July?

16 A. Well, the guys at the Press Centre told me that Srebrenica was

17 over, and I was happy to hear that because I didn't know of any -- that is

18 to say, there was not too much information coming in. I said that all the

19 information went via the Press Centre of the Main Staff, and so these guys

20 here were not able to give me any more extensive information.

21 As a man, as a human being, I was happy that, after the end of the

22 operation, I could hope to see the units at Treskavica being reinforced,

23 because I needed more men. Of course, this couldn't be done straight

24 away. And so that's how that day ended.

25 Q. But having these two pieces of information in your mind, were you

Page 6926

1 not inquisitive to find out from other Staff officers in the headquarters

2 what had happened in Srebrenica?

3 A. I was inquisitive, yes, but I didn't have time. I had my own

4 assignments and duties which I had to see to. And anyway, upon returning

5 to the unit at Treskavica, via the Muslim television I learnt something

6 more about those events.

7 Q. Let's move ahead with the day of the 13th of July of 1995. You

8 and General Krstic go to the military hospital together, and then I think

9 you go on to visit your mother and then I think you go on to visit General

10 Krstic's relatives.

11 Can you tell the Judges the time that you were engaged in visiting

12 these soldiers in the hospital and in visiting your family/relatives and

13 General Krstic's relatives? What time of the day in the morning did you

14 leave and what time did those events come to an end?

15 A. I said yesterday that I went to Sokolac before General Krstic,

16 immediately after my conversation with him in the corridor. We met at

17 about 11.30 at the Romanija Hotel at Sokolac, and we went off to the Main

18 Staff hospital --

19 Q. Witness, that evidence was clear. Just at what time of the day

20 did you, I think, leave either General Krstic's relatives or your

21 relatives?

22 A. Well, that's what I'm saying. We got to the hospital at about

23 noon; we met the doctors there, the surgeons. We toured the wounded, the

24 injured, and talked to them, and that lasted for about --

25 Q. This is clear from your evidence and I want to move ahead. What

Page 6927

1 time did you leave the hospital? What time did you finish visiting the

2 soldiers and the doctors?

3 A. About 1430, 1500 hours, in that interval.

4 Q. What time did you get to your mother's house?

5 A. Around 1530.

6 Q. And how long did you spend at your mother's house?

7 A. We had lunch, we stayed around -- well, perhaps it might have been

8 an hour and a half at the most.

9 Q. How long did it take to get to General Krstic's relatives from

10 there?

11 A. About 40 to 50 minutes.

12 Q. So you got to General Krstic's relatives at about 6.00 in the

13 evening.

14 A. A little before 6.00, I would say.

15 Q. How long did you spend at General Krstic's relatives?

16 A. We had a cup of coffee. Very short. Fifteen to twenty minutes.

17 Q. And then you went on to the forward command post at Krivaca.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At what time did you arrive there?

20 A. About 1900 hours, before 7.00 p.m.

21 Q. Was it just you and General Krstic in a single vehicle travelling

22 together? Was there a driver? Was there an escort?

23 A. The driver was there.

24 Q. Who was the driver? Was it Krstic or Tosic?

25 A. I think it was Tosic.

Page 6928

1 Q. Did you talk about the operation in Srebrenica in the car with the

2 General? I mean, you were with him for a long time in the car. Did you

3 talk about Srebrenica?

4 A. We talked more about my own position, that is to say, the position

5 of my unit at Treskavica. That was what we discussed more than the

6 Srebrenica operation.

7 Q. What did you say about Srebrenica? What did you talk about

8 Srebrenica? Did you talk about the refugees being transported out of the

9 enclave? Did you talk about the column of Muslim men that was escaping

10 towards Kladanj?

11 A. We spoke about that column escaping towards Kladanj very little.

12 General Krstic was more concerned about the organised transport of the

13 population. He was interested in whether my guys had conveyed the appeal

14 for collecting the transportation vehicles, and that's it, more or less.

15 Q. So General Krstic asked what help your unit could give in

16 organising transport for the movement of the refugees from Potocari?

17 A. My unit couldn't provide any assistance. We were very far away.

18 Treskavica and Trnovo are 150 kilometres away, even 200 kilometres away

19 from Srebrenica. And we had very specific assignments. I told you

20 yesterday, we were exposed to very fierce fire, we had high casualties --

21 Q. Witness, let me interrupt. You stated, and I may have

22 misinterpreted what you said, that "General Krstic was interested in

23 whether my guys had conveyed the appeal for collecting the transportation

24 vehicles." When you're referring to "my guys," who do you mean?

25 A. I mean the two soldiers in the Press Centre who forwarded to the

Page 6929

1 local radio stations. That's all I meant.

2 Q. So General Krstic was checking with you whether or not the Press

3 Centre had sent out the request for vehicles to be sent to Potocari to

4 move the population to Kladanj and on to Tuzla?

5 A. Krstic was not checking it out with me; he just asked me whether

6 this appeal had been passed on to the local radio stations, which I

7 confirmed.

8 Q. Now, when you talked about the column with General Krstic, what

9 did he say to you about that, when you briefly discussed that?

10 A. He told me, "Let them pass, just so that this can be ended as it

11 should," and I fully agreed with him.

12 Q. Now, in the vehicle at the time, what communications arrangements

13 were there in order for General Krstic to keep in touch with his

14 headquarters?

15 A. We had radio communication, an RUP. I can't remember the number,

16 the model. R-U-P.

17 Q. And this was how General Krstic kept in touch with the

18 headquarters or that they could communicate with him whilst he made these

19 social visits?

20 A. It was the standard method of communication whenever we were

21 moving. However, I don't remember, at least not in my presence, that any

22 communications were made. During those couple of hours, I don't remember

23 that we communicated with anyone at all.

24 Q. Now, you say that General Krstic said to you about the Muslim

25 columns, to let them pass. It was clear to you then, during that time,

Page 6930

1 that he was well aware that a column of able-bodied Muslim men were

2 breaking out of the enclave towards Kladanj; it was clear to you?

3 A. It was clear from the conversation, yes.

4 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, if you wish, perhaps it's an opportune

5 time to take a break.

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley. Today we will change a little

7 bit our timetable, because we used to break every 45 minutes for General

8 Krstic. Now General Krstic is resting. We can resume our procedure and

9 stay till 10.30.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad.

11 JUDGE RIAD: [Interpretation] If you are still --

12 MR. CAYLEY: No, no, no. I'm happy to keep moving ahead.

13 Q. Now, you said in your evidence yesterday, Witness, that during the

14 brief encounter that you had with General Zivanovic on the 12th of July,

15 that he insisted that you go back to Treskavica immediately. Do you

16 recall saying that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I may have misunderstood your testimony, but my understanding

19 was, when you had the conversation with General Krstic outside his office

20 in the headquarters, that he had said the same thing to you, that you

21 should get back to Treskavica immediately.

22 A. That I should return immediately. But that didn't mean that very

23 moment; it meant during the day. It's not so nearby that you can come and

24 go so easily.

25 Q. When General Krstic suggested that you go on these social visits

Page 6931

1 to your relatives, did you tell him that General Zivanovic had stated to

2 you that you were to return to Treskavica immediately because of the

3 urgency of the situation?

4 A. Yes. I told him that in front of the office.

5 Q. And he still stated that you should go on this social excursion to

6 your relatives and his relatives?

7 A. General Krstic knew that I had had a tragedy in the family several

8 months prior to this, that my father had died. He had every understanding

9 for me. And that is why he insisted, since I was there anyway, that I

10 should visit my mother, who lived alone and who was normally very worried

11 about me, which is quite understandable in view of the circumstances.

12 Q. Let's move ahead in time to the evening of the 13th of July. You

13 had dropped off General Krstic at his forward headquarters in Krivaca and

14 you then returned to Vlasenica; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you go to the corps headquarters in Vlasenica?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Where did you go?

19 A. Only to the press centre. I put in the vehicle, a Yugo 45, the

20 supplies, the foodstuffs, and set off immediately for my destination.

21 Q. Can you explain to the Judges the distinction between Treskavica

22 and Trnovo, or are they the same place?

23 A. Trnovo is a small town at the foot of Mount Treskavica. It is

24 otherwise one of the municipalities of Sarajevo.

25 Q. Now, you said yesterday in your evidence that communication

Page 6932

1 between Trnovo and Vlasenica was extremely difficult, and I'll quote

2 exactly what you said:

3 "Our communication with the command was made extremely difficult

4 because of the combat operations that were ongoing in the broader area of

5 Trnovo, so that we communicated via the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and it

6 was very hard to establish communication in that way."

7 So I'm right in saying, based on your evidence, that it was

8 extremely difficult to establish a communications link between Trnovo and

9 Vlasenica?

10 A. Yes, you're right.

11 Q. Now, do you recall what the radio call sign was for the

12 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Was it "Bedem"?

13 A. Possibly, but it's a long time ago and there were many different

14 names, so I really can't remember at this point in time. It could have

15 been "Bedem." I do not exclude the possibility.

16 Q. "Bedem" at least rings a bell that it could have been the call

17 sign for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? You said yes.

18 A. Somewhere in my mind the name is there, but I don't know whether

19 that was it at that time. I really don't know. I have no idea.

20 Q. Now, you said that, between the time that you went back to Trnovo

21 and the 20th of July, that you had contacts with General Zivanovic on the

22 radio. Now --

23 A. Not on the radio. It was not possible to communicate by radio at

24 such a distance. We could occasionally communicate by telephone and with

25 a teletype device.

Page 6933

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13 and English transcripts.

14

15

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Page 6934

1 Q. How many times did you speak with Zivanovic on the telephone

2 between the 13th and the 20th of July?

3 A. I can't remember. I remember one of the conversations when the

4 commander of the unit, Colonel Veletic, was at the observation post.

5 Zivanovic called us, not me personally, but he asked for Veletic,

6 requesting that we send the Chief of Staff of the 5th Brigade to his

7 original unit because he was indispensable there to accomplish certain

8 tasks probably.

9 Q. What was his name?

10 A. And the colleague in question was Vlacic.

11 Q. Is that the only conversation that you can recall?

12 A. I think that was the only conversation I had on telephone, but

13 Veletic was more frequently on the phone as the unit commander. You must

14 understand, we were with the troops on the front, to keep up morale and

15 combat-readiness.

16 Q. Now, on the telex machine, how many telexes do you recall coming

17 from the headquarters at Vlasenica?

18 A. I really can't remember the number, absolutely not. It was never

19 important for me to remember the number. It was important to carry out

20 the assignment.

21 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, we're actually now going to move to

22 another area, so it may be an appropriate time, if you wish, to take a

23 break.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Yes. We can take a break until a quarter to eleven.

25 Thank you.

Page 6935

1 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic.

4 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence wanted to

5 make a kind of objection or, rather, to raise an issue which we did not

6 have occasion to raise during the proceedings so far, but the Defence

7 feels it is important regarding future planning of time for witnesses.

8 The Defence examined this witness, according to my records, for

9 about 90 minutes; Mr. Cayley has been cross-examining him for about 90, 95

10 minutes. I don't know how much longer he will need, but our understanding

11 of the Rules is that the time for cross-examination should be roughly the

12 same as the time devoted to the examination-in-chief.

13 We just need instructions as to whether that Rule will be observed

14 in the future so that we can plan the time for future witnesses, for the

15 days ahead.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. I quite share your opinion

17 as far as time should be organised.

18 We just should take into consideration that when you question the

19 witness in the same language, apparently you can say more than when you

20 have to speak a different language, and so on. So we can give an

21 allowance of a few minutes, perhaps. But apart from that, I think we

22 should be very much careful -- you have a rebuttal, and you can have it

23 after that.

24 But I'll ask Mr. Cayley. What are your plans?

25 MR. CAYLEY: Well, if I could comment, with your permission, Judge

Page 6936

1 Riad, on what my learned friend has said.

2 I do not believe that there is -- there is certainly not a written

3 Rule within the Rules of Procedure that says that the length of time taken

4 for the cross-examination must be equal to that taken by the

5 examination-in-chief. I know that, on occasion, I think this Trial

6 Chamber has desired that they be of similar length. But the reality is,

7 cross-examination is a very different beast from examination-in-chief, and

8 it is often necessary to make exploration into certain areas which,

9 although not covered by the examination-in-chief, are nevertheless

10 relevant for the case.

11 I don't want to refer you to the Rules particularly, but Rule

12 89(H) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence makes that very clear, that

13 the party -- the other party can make cross-examination not only into the

14 subject matter of the examination-in-chief but also matters affecting the

15 credibility of the witness and also whether the witness is able to give

16 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party. Now, that

17 may not be brought out by the other side, and the process of

18 cross-examination may take a little bit longer. So that, in principle, is

19 the view of the Prosecution.

20 As far as this particular witness is concerned, I think I should

21 be finished within an hour, at the most.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Good. We'll grant you an hour. And you have the

23 chance for a rebuttal afterwards. Thank you.

24 Mr. Cayley, you can proceed when he comes.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad.

Page 6937

1 JUDGE WALD: While we're waiting, Mr. Cayley, let me ask you a

2 question. Is it usually possible for you, before you hear the direct

3 testimony of a witness, to make a reasonable estimate, based on what you

4 know about what he's going to testify about?

5 This comes up, as I know you're aware, where more and more we're

6 putting pressure - not in this case particularly, in all cases - on both

7 sides to estimate the amount of time that they're going to need, and

8 clearly the Defence's time includes cross-examination. So it's useful

9 sometimes to know ahead of time if it's going to be a day's

10 cross-examination or two hours of cross-examination.

11 MR. CAYLEY: I think I'd make two points. As you know, Your

12 Honour, we simply don't have access --

13 JUDGE WALD: I understand that.

14 MR. CAYLEY: -- to many of these people, as we do in domestic

15 jurisdictions.

16 JUDGE WALD: I understand that.

17 MR. CAYLEY: Secondly, the Prosecution is normally in the position

18 where we only have the Rule 65 summaries. I mean, I don't wish to raise

19 that as well, but in this particular instance, that summary bore little

20 resemblance to what the witness actually said. I know, and I emphasise,

21 that is not out of any policy of the Defence. That happened to them

22 because they had difficulties in communicating with their witnesses. So

23 I'm not suggesting it's anything to do with honesty.

24 JUDGE WALD: Right.

25 MR. CAYLEY: But nevertheless, that is why it is difficult.

Page 6938

1 JUDGE WALD: Well, surely by the time a witness has finished

2 direct and you're getting ready to pursue your cross-examination, you must

3 have some estimate as to whether it's going -- not to the minute but maybe

4 to the half hour.

5 MR. CAYLEY: To the hour, I think, Your Honour. That's --

6 JUDGE WALD: To the hour. It might be useful at that point, maybe

7 even for the Defence, if you have some notion, if you can share that with

8 them or even with us, "I expect my cross-examination will be two

9 hours," "three hours," et cetera.

10 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, certainly, we can do that, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Krystal, you have the floor.

12 THE REGISTRAR: I just wanted to say, Mr. Cayley, when you spoke

13 of Rule 89, it's actually Rule 90(H).

14 MR. CAYLEY: I stand corrected. You're quite right. I was

15 looking at 90 bis. It is Rule 90. Thank you.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad.

18 Q. Witness, could you please provide to the Judges the names of the

19 other press officers who were working at the Drina Corps headquarters on

20 the 12th and 13th of July.

21 A. Risto Motika, Mitrovic Igor.

22 Q. Where does Risto Motika live now in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. I really don't know.

24 Q. And Mitrovic Igor, do you know where he lives?

25 A. I think -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think he lives in Vlasenica.

Page 6939

1 Q. Now, just one last point. When you were on the road with General

2 Krstic on the 13th and you were talking with him about the problems in

3 Trnovo, did you say to him that soldiers on the front needed a rest and

4 needed to be rotated?

5 A. The soldiers were exhausted because they were constantly under

6 fire. However, we insisted more, pursuant to the order of Colonel

7 Veletic, on the replenishing of the unit with personnel rather than on the

8 need for urgent rotation, because of the excess losses we were suffering.

9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

10 811.

11 Q. Now, the commander of your unit, Witness, was Colonel Stojan

12 Veletic; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I think the Chief of Staff, as you've already said, was

15 Lieutenant Colonel Ljubomir Vlacic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, the content of this order I'm not particularly concerned

18 with; it's just the title of your brigade. Now, am I right in saying that

19 on the 7th -- I think it says on yours, actually, the 6th. There's a

20 mistake in the English translation. On the 6th of July, 1995, Stojan

21 Veletic was the commander of your brigade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the name of that brigade was the 4th Drina Light Infantry

24 Brigade?

25 A. In my notes, it says the 5th, but I may be wrong.

Page 6940

1 Q. Now, you said to us yesterday that it was called the Podrinje

2 Brigade.

3 A. I don't know. It was never so important to me. The important

4 thing was the work that we did in the unit. It seems to me, as far as I

5 can recollect -- I'm not sure -- that it was indeed the 5th Podrinje, but

6 I may be wrong.

7 Q. So you were a staff officer in a brigade which you can't clearly

8 recollect the name of that brigade?

9 A. Whether it was the 4th or the 5th doesn't really matter.

10 Q. What does it say at the top of this order? Can you read out to

11 the Judges what it says, the name of the unit?

12 A. "All members of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade are not

13 allowed to move -- are banned from moving or loitering in the streets of

14 Trnovo between 6.00 p.m. and 10.00 p.m. without a special order or

15 permission from the Superior Command."

16 Q. Let me interrupt you, because I think I perhaps gave you the wrong

17 instructions. If you go to the top of the order where it says "Command,"

18 can you read out that line?

19 A. The Command of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade.

20 Q. And indeed, it's signed by the brigade commander, Stojan Veletic,

21 at the bottom, isn't it?

22 A. Yes. Yes. Then it was probably the 4th.

23 Q. So you would agree with me that the name of the unit you were in

24 was not the Podrinje Brigade but was, in fact, the 4th Drinski Light

25 Infantry Brigade?

Page 6941

1 A. I agree.

2 Q. Now, you've already stated in evidence to another question that I

3 asked you that Ljubomir Vlacic was a member of the Birac Brigade. Do you

4 recall that?

5 A. Yes. I said that this brigade -- we now know officially that it

6 was the 4th Drina Brigade -- was formed as a provisional unit, that is, a

7 unit with a provisional composition consisting of elements of the Drina

8 Corps and brigades from Sekovici; and the Chief of Staff, Mr. Vlacic, was

9 named the Chief of Staff of the newly-formed unit.

10 Q. Now, you stated in evidence that you recall a time after the 13th

11 of July, 1995 when Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic left the Drina Brigade and

12 went back to his own unit. Do you remember that time?

13 A. I do remember.

14 Q. Do you remember when that was?

15 A. I don't remember the exact date, but I think -- I think it was

16 sometime around the 20th of July. I cannot recollect the exact date, but

17 I know I have it noted down in my diary for sure.

18 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

19 364, volume 2. It's an intercept from the 17th of July.

20 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to show you the transcript of an

21 intercepted radio communication, and this is an intercept of a VRS radio

22 communication. And I'm going to read it out. You can look at the Serbian

23 version of it. It's tab 3. Now, Witness, if you recall, you do recollect

24 that "bedem" was the call sign for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and let me

25 read it out to you. It is a conversation that took place on the 17th of

Page 6942

1 July, at 0910 hours, and the participants are X, bedem, Sarajevo-Romanija

2 Corps; Krstic; and Veletic, brackets (cannot be heard):

3 "X: Hello, is that bedem?

4 B: Yes.

5 X: Listen Bedem, I need to talk to Colonel Veletic.

6 B: I hear that for the first time, believe me.

7 K: Bedem, Zlatar 01/ code name/ here, do you hear me? Over.

8 B: Bedem speaking, go ahead.

9 K: Give me Colonel Veletic from your IKM 3/forward command

10 post/.

11 B: Hold on a moment.

12 K: Krstic here.

13 B: Colonel Veletic is on the line, he can hear you.

14 K: I can't hear him. Listen Bedem.

15 B: Do you want me to pass it on to him?

16 K: Listen Bedem. General Krstic is calling.

17 B: Yes?

18 K: Tell Veletic I ordered that Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic

19 urgently return to the unit.

20 B: Veletic says it's already been taken care of.

21 K: It's been taken care of?

22 B: Yes.

23 K: So, he has to report urgently to the unit, he must be there

24 by 1300 hours.

25 B: He says everything's all right and it's already been taken

Page 6943

1 care of.

2 K: Has he left? Ask him.

3 B: He's left already.

4 K: Excellent. OK.

5 B: Take care, goodbye."

6 Now, Witness, you would agree with me that the contents of this

7 intercept deal with the evidence that you've already given concerning the

8 departure of Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic from the headquarters in Trnovo

9 back to his unit in Birac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you would also agree with me that an individual by the name of

12 Krstic is giving the orders to Colonel Veletic that Lieutenant Colonel

13 Vlacic should return to his unit.

14 A. I was not present during this conversation. Possibly those are

15 the -- it may have taken place that way --

16 Q. But you would agree that --

17 A. -- in that ratio.

18 Q. But you would agree with me that the contents of this radio

19 communication indicate that it was Krstic having a conversation with

20 Lieutenant Colonel -- with, I'm sorry, Colonel Veletic rather than General

21 Zivanovic, based on this piece of paper in front of you.

22 A. I don't know who Colonel Veletic was talking to. And I said that

23 I had a conversation of similar contents with General Zivanovic who asked

24 Veletic to go to his original unit. That's all I can say with respect to

25 this document.

Page 6944

1 Q. Do you know of an individual by the name of Major Eskic?

2 A. The name rings a bell, but I can't quite seem to remember his

3 formation or establishment. You know, many people with many names went by

4 during those times.

5 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit

6 808, please.

7 Q. Now, you see, Witness, that this is another order of the Command

8 of the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade; it's also signed by Colonel

9 Stojan Veletic, Brigade Commander. Could you read out for the Judges

10 paragraph 4 of that order? I'm sorry, once you've had an opportunity to

11 read it.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you read out paragraph 4?

14 A. "To all those who, at this decisive moment of our struggle, are

15 counter to the aims to the struggle and do not carry out assigned tasks,

16 the Command of the SRK shall take legal measures in accordance with the

17 state of war declared in this territory against all those who, at this

18 decisive moment of our struggle ..." et cetera. That is paragraph 4.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, you're aware that the SRK was the

20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I'm right in saying that if the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was

23 presented as the higher formation taking legal measures against members of

24 the 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade, that was your Superior Command

25 whilst you were in Trnovo; is that right?

Page 6945

1 A. Well, it's like this: We were the attached unit to the

2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, which is quite normal. We found ourselves in

3 their area of responsibility.

4 Q. So the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had operational control over your

5 unit and, in fact, had disciplinary authority over the soldiers in your

6 unit, as far as you can remember.

7 A. At that moment, yes.

8 Q. Now, in respect of these legal measures being taken against

9 individuals who counter the aims of the Serbian struggle, are you aware of

10 Serbs outside the Srebrenica enclave being prosecuted by the Serb

11 authorities for assisting able-bodied Muslim men in escaping towards

12 Tuzla? Are you aware of any such cases?

13 A. No.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, if we could for a moment move into closed

15 session because we have two documents which mention the witness by name,

16 and I'm going to need to read out portions of the document and that will

17 identify him to the public. So if I can make an application for closed

18 session, probably for about 10 to 15 minutes.

19 JUDGE RIAD: I assume you are agreeable, Mr. Visnjic? It's in the

20 interest of the witness.

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

23 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, it can be a private session, so that just

24 the system is switched off.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Madam Registrar, private session.

Page 6946

1 [Private session]

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13 pages 6946-6957 redacted private session

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Page 6958

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 MR. CAYLEY:

14 Q. I will read this intercept out to the Court. I'm not going to

15 read all of it, I'm going to read approximately half of it, although Your

16 Honours have seen this, and indeed I think we've read it out to you

17 before.

18 The conversation is between Colonel Cerovic and an individual

19 named Vinko. Now, Colonel Cerovic is the Assistant Commander for Morale,

20 Legal, and Religious Affairs within the Drina Corps; is that right,

21 Witness? You have to make an audible response.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know of anybody within the Drina Corps called Vinko?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who do you know? A senior officer called Vinko.

Page 6959

1 A. Commander of the Zvornik Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic.

2 Q. If I read out the intercept:

3 "C: Colonel Cerovic wants to talk to him.

4 : OK.

5 C: Hello.

6 V: Yes.

7 C: Good morning Vinko.

8 V: Good morning.

9 C: How are you?

10 V: Well, I'm running around since last night. We (went in?)

11 again.

12 C: Where?

13 V: They are up there at Crni Vrh, over there at Potocani,

14 Planinci, the part towards Baljkovica.

15 C: Uh-huh. You mean the ones who are coming out on this

16 side. Is that right?

17 V: Yes, from there and all of them are rushing over here to

18 us.

19 C: You rushed off first. Rushed off.

20 V: I really did, quite right. Well, yesterday we liquidated

21 some 20-odd.

22 C: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

23 V: And this morning we started chasing about 150 of them over

24 there. There are in some kind of encirclement.

25 C: And in which area are they surrounded?

Page 6960

1 V: That's the Planinci-Baljkovica area.

2 C: That means in the areas of Planinci and Baljkovica.

3 V: Yes.

4 C: You are good ... Vinko.

5 V: Yes.

6 C: What's your plan for tomorrow for shift replacement at

7 Trnovo.

8 V: I don't have a shift for Trnovo.

9 C: Well, I know that was the order, that you've sent a

10 report, however, this Eskic has just called me from up

11 there and said that he was yesterday somewhere at your

12 place and that he heard you are doing a shift rotation.

13 V: No. I did a rotation of shift at Nisici.

14 C: I'm telling you, the report he sent - there's not way it

15 can be done ... That's Krstic's order, there are no shift

16 rotations until further notice.

17 V: It would be best if we transfer our complete Corps to the

18 SRK/Sarajevo-Romanija Corps/."

19 Now, I'm not going to read the rest of this document out. But you

20 would agree with me, Witness, that the diary entry in the log, the war

21 log, that I showed you, the 19th of July, in which the brigade command

22 gives the order or expresses to the brigade that an order has been given

23 for no shift rotations is, in fact, referring to this order, isn't it,

24 Krstic's order that there be no shift rotations until further notice.

25 A. I do not see this as an order. This is a conversation by radio or

Page 6961

1 by telephone, it doesn't matter; and from this conversation, all we can do

2 is intimate that there was some hesitation as to whether it is possible to

3 organise a shift at Trnovo or not, a replacement -- a rotation. You see

4 that Mr. Cerovic would like to observe the order but he is objectively

5 unable to do so, and the same applies to Vinko.

6 Q. But you would agree with me that Cerovic, in fact, states:

7 "That's Krstic's order, there are no shift rotations until further

8 notice." That is what Cerovic said in this intercept.

9 A. Yes, normally, because not only was there a problem now in our

10 area of responsibility, but also in Western Bosnia.

11 Q. And that order for no shift rotation is the order that's referred

12 to in the diary entry that we looked at a moment ago of the 19th of July

13 of 1995.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, Witness, when you originally spoke with Defence counsel about

16 the evidence that you were going to give today, did you tell Mr. Petrusic

17 or Mr. Visnjic that you had, in fact, stayed at the headquarters of the

18 Drina Corps from the 13th to the 16th of July and that you were then sent

19 to the front line at Treskavica?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You didn't say that?

22 A. You see, I told you I kept a diary throughout the war for literary

23 reasons, not for any reasons linked to this, and I have the precise data

24 there. So I abide by what I have already said.

25 Q. So when you told Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic that you had, in

Page 6962

1 fact, been at the Vlasenica headquarters from the 13th to the 16th of

2 July, that was prior to you checking your diary.

3 A. Yes, because after all, that was so many years ago. One forgets a

4 lot of things.

5 Q. When you checked your diary, you, in fact, realised that you had

6 left on the 13th of July, that you'd left for Trnovo on the 13th of July.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, lastly and very briefly, Witness, you are aware of the

9 allegations being made by the Prosecutor in this case, and all I wish to

10 know from you is when you found out about information which is now public,

11 which is now known by the entire world.

12 When did you hear that upwards of 7.500 Muslim men had been

13 executed within the Drina Corps' area of responsibility? When did you

14 hear about that information?

15 A. I heard the first information, where the numbers were much higher,

16 from the Muslim media. I said that I didn't believe it, knowing full well

17 what their propaganda was like.

18 Regarding this particular case, I learnt after the arrest of

19 General Krstic and his transportation here to The Hague, and I learnt this

20 from the media, not from any official document, because I was no longer in

21 the Staff or at the source of any information of this kind.

22 Q. So you only heard about this mass murder taking place very close

23 to where you worked and lived when General Krstic was arrested and brought

24 to The Hague. Prior to that, you had absolutely no conversations with any

25 other Serbs or no access to any kind of reliable information about these

Page 6963

1 killings.

2 A. Correct. I didn't have any reliable information. I did speak to

3 the soldiers who took part in the operation. When I asked them whether it

4 was true, what was being carried by the media, not one of them could tell

5 me whether it was true. Why? Because all of them were on the move and

6 all of them denied these figures, claiming that along the line of

7 movement, they would come across some -- a few bodies of people who had

8 been killed in conflict.

9 As to the numbers, I really have no knowledge that 7.000 sparrows

10 had died - it would have been visible - not to mention people, so I don't

11 know.

12 Q. Now, you mentioned towards the end of your evidence a village

13 within the area of the Romanija Brigade where I think you said that

14 Muslims lived quite happily; I think the village of Vrbare. Do you recall

15 your evidence on that? The inhabitants of the village of Vrbare, the

16 Muslim inhabitants, stayed on throughout the war. I think you said that

17 you were given orders by General Krstic to go and visit these people. Do

18 you recall that evidence?

19 A. Yes, I did, indeed. I didn't get an order once but certainly more

20 than ten times to go and tour those villages with Muslim populations.

21 Q. When did you stop touring those villages, the village in

22 particular of Vrbare?

23 A. I always went to both Vrbare and Burati, but not so frequently

24 when I was transferred to the Corps Command. At the end of the war, I

25 left those areas. I know that all those people have survived and that

Page 6964

1 they are grateful.

2 Q. So you are not aware that in August of 1994 masked men began

3 assaulting the village of Vrbare, and indeed a number, significant number,

4 of the villagers in October of 1994 ended up in the Kula prison? You're

5 not aware of that fact at all?

6 A. I'm not aware of it, and I sincerely regret it, if that is so,

7 because these were people that I protected. I devoted so much attention

8 to them that I am really sorry if that is what happened.

9 MR. CAYLEY: Judge Riad, I have no further questions for the

10 witness. Thank you.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

12 Then it's time, perhaps, for a break of 45 minutes. We'll resume

13 at 12.45. Thank you.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

16 JUDGE RIAD: Would you like to resume?

17 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Judge Riad. I've now finished my

18 cross-examination. I think my learned friend Mr. Visnjic will have some

19 re-examination, but I just wanted to raise two matters with the Court.

20 First of all, I wondered what the timing was for the rest of the

21 afternoon.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Now, we have to set that right in a way. I think we

23 can have now a session till a quarter to two, a quarter-of-an-hour break,

24 twenty-minutes break, and then resume till three.

25 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Judge Riad. And the second point was that

Page 6965

1 I just wanted to remind the Court, and indeed the Defence: The agreement

2 was, in respect of Defence witnesses, that Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Visnjic

3 would be able to have contact with General Krstic during his examination,

4 but that after General Krstic, the normal Rule would apply which applied

5 to the Prosecution during its case in chief, that there would be no

6 contact with the witness once the examination-in-chief had commenced.

7 JUDGE RIAD: That's what you applied.

8 MR. CAYLEY: That is what was applied to the Prosecution. I was

9 just simply -- because I know General Krstic has been testifying for a

10 number of weeks, and I just wanted to state publicly that that was the

11 understanding of the Defence, that they would have no contact with the

12 witness -- with subsequent witnesses once they started testifying.

13 JUDGE RIAD: Once they start.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.

15 JUDGE RIAD: But the one who is here today --

16 MR. CAYLEY: Well, I --

17 JUDGE RIAD: If he doesn't come today, they can still contact him

18 till Monday?

19 MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour. Essentially, what I'm saying is

20 this: Once a witness has started giving evidence in the courtroom,

21 counsel will not have any contact with that witness. Obviously, prior to

22 them giving their evidence, they can. I assume that's the Rule that's

23 been applied, and indeed Mr. Visnjic is nodding his head.

24 JUDGE RIAD: We all assume so.

25 Mr. Petrusic.

Page 6966

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have been

2 applying that Rule, and indeed with the witness that has started his

3 testimony, the Defence has had no contact with him since then, since

4 testimony began. Therefore, I don't think there are any impediments

5 there.

6 MR. CAYLEY: Sorry. Mr. Petrusic's response is as if I was

7 accusing him, and I wasn't at all. I know, Mr. Petrusic, that you've had

8 no contact. I just simply wanted to remind the Court that that was what

9 we had agreed, because General Krstic had been testifying for so long.

10 JUDGE RIAD: The agreement is respected. But then there is

11 another question for the next witness. Mr. Petrusic, would you like to,

12 if we have time, to have the second witness today, or because that will

13 deprive you of any contact ...

14 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely the issue that we

15 wanted to take up with the Prosecution, depending on how long their

16 examination will last, and again depending on the questions by the Judges

17 for this witness. The next witness that will be coming will not be

18 examined for more than 45 to 50 minutes by the Defence, so I don't know

19 how long -- but I don't know how long the Prosecution plans to examine

20 that witness. And if we don't succeed by the end of the working day

21 today, the Defence counsel would reserve the right to start off with an

22 examination of the witness on Monday.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. But my question went further.

24 Are you in need still to have contact with the witness so that we'll not

25 start before Monday, in the light of Mr. Cayley's reminder that you can

Page 6967

1 never contact him after that?

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall respect the

3 Rule with respect to the witness and no contacts with the witness if

4 testimony goes ahead.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.

6 JUDGE WALD: Can I just clarify one thing? Do you want -- suppose

7 we're through here in about an hour or less. I don't know how long your

8 redirect is, but suppose we're through here in an hour or less. Do you

9 want to begin the second witness today or would you rather wait until

10 Monday?

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] We would rather get through the

12 witness today, on condition, of course, that the Prosecution is able to

13 finish the cross-examination of the witness that is coming next.

14 JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. I still can't get the right answer that

15 I'm looking for. If we start on the second witness toward -- say in

16 another hour or something like -- but we can't get all the way through the

17 witness and the cross-examination today, would you rather not begin at all

18 or go as far as we can go?

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Well, you're putting me in a

20 difficult position now. I have -- I fully respect the working hours of

21 this Tribunal, of course, and we're ready to go ahead. But if the Trial

22 Chamber has any obligations or our learned colleagues from the Prosecution

23 do, then we would be ready to begin with that witness on Monday. But may

24 I leave the decision to you, Your Honours? Perhaps I haven't been

25 sufficiently clear.

Page 6968

1 JUDGE WALD: That's all right.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] One hour is an hour which I don't

3 think the Court will find too taxing, and we don't want to extend working

4 hours, of course, so this is a bit of a tricky situation.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, can I frame the question differently?

6 Is there any emergency for the witness to go back before the weekend? We

7 can make -- you can arrange perhaps -- you can ask that.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No. No.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Good. So proceed normally. Thank you very much.

10 You are finished?

11 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Judge Riad.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, do you have anything, or Mr. Visnjic?

13 You would like to go to rebuttal?

14 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the spirit of this

15 discussion, the Defence does not have any additional questions for this

16 witness.

17 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

18 Now, Judge Wald, would you like --

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE RIAD: Judge Wald.

21 JUDGE WALD: I just have two very brief questions, Witness DA.

22 You testified that from the time that you left the Vlasenica headquarters

23 on the 14th until I think you said around the 20th, you would still get

24 communications of some sort from General Zivanovic.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6969

1 JUDGE WALD: And what I wanted to know was whether or not through

2 that entire period going up to the 20th, those communications were in his

3 role as a general, or did they change at all? At what point did you

4 become aware that General Krstic had been named as his successor?

5 A. You said Mr. Zivanovic, how long he was a General. He's still a

6 General today.

7 JUDGE WALD: I'm sorry. How long General Zivanovic remained as

8 commander of the Drina Corps. When you were getting communications from

9 him all the way up to the 20th, did you see any change in his status

10 during that period? That's the first question. The second is: When did

11 you learn of General Krstic's successorship?

12 A. For as long as we received messages at Treskavica signed by

13 General Zivanovic, for us he was the Corps Commander, for as long as he

14 signed everything. The first message that we received with the signature

15 of General Krstic, and that was sometime around the 20th -- I don't

16 remember the exact date, whether it was a day or two before or after that

17 date. So we received a message signed by the Corps Commander, General

18 Krstic. On that same day, we sent out a congratulations message for his

19 appointment as commander to Commander Krstic on behalf of the fighters of

20 the 4th Drina Brigade and in the name of the command of that unit as well,

21 the commanding staff.

22 JUDGE WALD: So you do -- or do you remember receiving

23 communications from General Zivanovic which were either labelled or on

24 their face were communications he was making as the chief of the -- as the

25 commander of the Drina Corps right up until the 20th? Do you remember

Page 6970

1 specifically whether you got any, or what those were? In the latter days,

2 in the latter days of that period. You left on the 13th, I guess it was.

3 A. In the latter days of that period, that is to say, sometime around

4 the 20th, we received messages by teletype where Zivanovic was interested

5 in the state of affairs as regards morale and the combat-readiness of our

6 unit, and they were still signed, "Corps Commander, General Zivanovic."

7 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My second last question is: When later on you

8 did learn of the allegations, I'll use that word for here, the allegations

9 of the mass executions of the Srebrenica column, and also in some cases of

10 the refugees, and according to your own testimony recently, you knew that

11 the Drina Corps had been engaged during this period in mopping-up

12 operations or in trying to find and capture the columns, what was your

13 reaction at that point? I mean, what did you think when you put those two

14 things together?

15 A. First of all, Your Honour, I was not able to believe that our

16 forces could carry out an assignment of that kind, because I knew that

17 perhaps just 1.500 fighters could be engaged in that operation. I

18 wondered how these people managed, with an enemy that was 15 times

19 stronger and well-armed, how they managed to overcome such an enemy, and I

20 was more prone to believe, as I was not on the terrain itself, that

21 everything had taken place on the basis of an agreement of some kind,

22 whatever you like to call it.

23 When you ask me when I learnt of the sufferings of that column, I

24 said that the first information reached us from the Muslim information

25 media, and those figures were really exaggerated, almost to the extent

Page 6971

1 when it was said that Zepa has a population of 40.000 inhabitants.

2 JUDGE WALD: But what about later on? Even after the events were

3 mostly over and you learned that, in fact, it appeared that these

4 massacres/executions had taken place - had taken place - what was your

5 reaction then?

6 I know you have great honour, respect, and perhaps love for the

7 Drina Corps, but on the point of learning that these things, there was

8 strong evidence they had actually happened, and you had not been on the

9 terrain but you'd been in the area and you knew many of the personalities

10 involved, what was your feeling/reaction?

11 A. Not even then, not even at this moment am I able to believe it

12 all. I am first and foremost a humanist by vocation and choice, and quite

13 simply because of those people and because of the honourable officers of

14 the Drina Corps, I do not wish to believe it, and I cannot believe it.

15 JUDGE WALD: So you do not believe it at present? You do not

16 believe it at present?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.

18 JUDGE WALD: That's the wrong one. Sorry.

19 A. I said that I don't wish to believe it, neither can I, being who I

20 am, the personality that I am, can I believe all that. If it truly did

21 happen, then I am profoundly sorry because I spent the whole war working

22 to save people. I indicated the need to coexist, cohabit, to love one

23 another, love man, and that is my life-long option, generally.

24 JUDGE WALD: I'm sure we all share that, except at times reality

25 intrudes upon some of our desires. But if those were your feelings, thank

Page 6972

1 you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Judge Wald.

4 Witness DA, good afternoon again.

5 A. Good afternoon, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand a few things from you.

7 The first thing concerns your competence/jurisdiction. You were

8 the Assistant Commander for Morale, Religious, and Legal Affairs in the

9 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, and in fact, apparently, you took action

10 against one of your officers, Major Suka, because he led the units of the

11 Palija Battalion into the Redjani Gorge where about 60 men were killed.

12 So you were taking action against officers who committed grave

13 violations.

14 Did you take any action, you or your department, concerning the

15 violation of human rights or war crimes at any moment?

16 A. I said that as against Major Suka action was taken, and it is

17 still ongoing; the legal proceedings have still not been concluded. All

18 that happened at the beginning of the war operations and immediately

19 before General Krstic came to the 2nd Romanija Brigade.

20 If you're asking me whether we took action of any kind, took steps

21 of any kind, with respect to the events that are topical here, that are

22 being discussed here, then I should like to inform Your Honours that at

23 the beginning of August, upon my return from my assignment at Treskavica,

24 at the request of the civilian authorities from the Corps Command,

25 following permission from General Krstic, the Commander, I went to my work

Page 6973

1 assignment and I became a professor at the gymnasium, the secondary

2 school, because they needed teaching staff for work in the field of

3 education in Republika Srpska.

4 The Legal Department in the Corps, which was made up of lawyers

5 Lubez and the late Marijanovic, I do not know whether the department did

6 anything along those lines, took any action. Because after my departure

7 from the Corps, I saw Marijanovic only once while he was lying in hospital

8 at the clinical centre in Belgrade, and as he was seriously ill, I did not

9 ask him anything about the subjects we are discussing here and now.

10 Therefore, I have no knowledge as to whether the Legal Department of the

11 Corps took any steps or not in this regard.

12 JUDGE RIAD: You also were in very -- I believe, in friendly

13 contact with General Krstic. Did he mention to you that he ordered any

14 investigation or any action concerning, at any moment, violations of human

15 rights or war crimes?

16 A. After my departure to take up my duties, I rarely saw General

17 Krstic. Perhaps we had a little more time on one occasion to talk and to

18 exchange information about each other's families and what the future held

19 for us in peacetime, what we were to do in peacetime. The most important

20 thing for me was to forget the war; I am trying to wipe it out of my

21 recollections as soon as possible.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Now, there was some kind of, what can I say,

23 contradiction between your going with General Blaskic on this -- with

24 Krstic on this social errand and the order you received from General

25 Zivanovic on the 12th of July to return to your unit, because if I gather

Page 6974

1 rightly, you received this order from Zivanovic on the 12th of July, and

2 on the morning of the 13th, General Krstic asked you to accompany him.

3 Whose orders are you supposed to obey? Who was in charge then?

4 A. The Corps Commander, General Zivanovic, did not insist that I

5 return that very same moment to my original unit, but he did not allow me

6 to stay for several days either. He was reasonable and understood my need

7 to return the next day to take up my assignments; the Chief of Staff,

8 General Krstic, had a complete understanding of that too.

9 JUDGE RIAD: But in the army, I think orders are orders. I mean,

10 when you are ordered to return to your unit, either Zivanovic was in

11 power, either he had authority, or he didn't. So at that date, were the

12 orders of Zivanovic, more or less, weaker than the orders of General

13 Krstic or, let's say, inexistent?

14 A. Your Honour, no. Subordination was respected fully to the end

15 where we come from. General Zivanovic was the Corps Commander, but he

16 didn't write me a letter with an order; he didn't issue a written order or

17 an oral order. But as human beings, we reached an agreement that I should

18 return to my unit the following day.

19 JUDGE RIAD: How long did this errand last, your social and family

20 visits?

21 A. My family or the visit with General Krstic's family?

22 JUDGE RIAD: Your being with General Krstic off and on.

23 A. We visited the wounded and stayed there for about two hours; then

24 we spent about an hour and a half with my mother and perhaps half an hour

25 or a little longer with his relatives.

Page 6975

1 JUDGE RIAD: And wherever you are, you are in close contact with

2 the media and the information. Was it difficult to get information of

3 what was happening? Were you completely cut off?

4 A. Yes, to a great extent. There was a lot of combat activity in the

5 Treskavica area, and very frequently the telephone communications were

6 down. We had almost exclusively to rely upon the information media of the

7 Bosnian Muslims and, to an extent, Serbian radio, for as much as it could

8 be heard in those regions, because it wasn't strong enough. The

9 transmitters weren't strong enough to relay it always.

10 JUDGE RIAD: And you gave no credit to the information coming from

11 the Muslim media? When you said that you knew from them about the

12 massacres, about mass murder, and so on, would you take that as a lie, or

13 you would give it consideration and check it, you and the whole ...

14 A. I took it to be untruths, learning from the Markale experience,

15 and many others as well. Therefore, I had reason not to believe.

16 JUDGE RIAD: But the word was spread; everybody knew. Whether

17 it's wrong or right, the information passed, wherever it's coming from.

18 A. In the Serbian language, rumours, I mean something that has not

19 been checked out and established as truth, and that is how we took it.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking about information, and you mentioned

21 that the soldiers were furious because they knew about the -- what you

22 called the Christmas massacre, and other things there. And who spread the

23 word and who really -- in your opinion, where did they get this

24 information from?

25 A. I don't think you understood me. I spoke about the massacre that

Page 6976

1 occurred on Christmas 1993, and then it was the relatives of precisely the

2 fighters who were in my unit who lost their lives. So you must understand

3 that they wanted to rid themselves of the presence of the people who were,

4 until yesterday, their neighbours and in the encirclement around their

5 villages, because there were many dead on the Serbian side before the war

6 ended, especially in Podrinje.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Now, I just wanted to know: To keep the morale

8 of -- because you were apparently also commander for morale. To keep the

9 morale high and the desire to fight strong, was there some kind of

10 propaganda telling the people how their enemy -- what their enemy did and

11 how they should take revenge?

12 A. No. We cautioned the fighters exclusively of the need to hold the

13 front lines in the Treskavica and Trnovo area, and there was no kind of

14 propaganda whatsoever. We did not spread any kind of propaganda, nor was

15 there any need to do so. We pointed out to them the fact that their

16 co-fighters from the units were doing their best to do -- to liberate

17 Srebrenica even without them, and although many of them had a fervent wish

18 to be down there at the time. Of course, they were concerned and worried

19 about their families and their houses, because the Muslim forces were

20 moving around in the area, in precisely that area.

21 JUDGE RIAD: I think my last question: You mentioned that General

22 Krstic said once, concerning the column, the Muslim column, "Let them

23 pass ..." I'm quoting your words, "Let them pass so that it could end as

24 it should," the Muslim column breaking out of the enclave towards

25 Kladanj. When he said, "Let them pass," he is a general. Did such an

Page 6977

1 order be obeyed or was it wishful thinking?

2 A. Your Honour, a different order from the distinguished officer I

3 could not have expected, and this is the first time that I'm hearing that

4 kind of formulation, but where the officer could say nothing else but to

5 let the column pass and everything to pass, not only the column.

6 JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry. I didn't exactly understand. When he

7 said, "Let them pass," did they pass?

8 A. I don't know. I was not in the area. I was not in the area. I

9 don't know.

10 JUDGE RIAD: Whom was he saying that to? Was it to you?

11 A. No. There was no need for him to say it to me.

12 JUDGE RIAD: Well, you said that he said, "Let them pass so that

13 it could end as it should." I would like to know more details about -- if

14 you said it, I quoted it.

15 THE INTERPRETER: There was no audible response from the witness.

16 We didn't hear.

17 A. I'm a little mixed up now. As I say, I wasn't in the area when

18 those events took place. There was no movement of columns in the sector

19 where I was. As you have read out, it referred to the sector of the zone

20 of responsibility of the Corps.

21 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Cayley, anything to add?

24 MR. CAYLEY: Just some exhibits, Judge Riad.

25 JUDGE RIAD: But you can liberate our witness?

Page 6978

1 MR. CAYLEY: Well, I thought we should do it in the presence of

2 the witness in case there are any problems.

3 JUDGE RIAD: Good.

4 MR. CAYLEY: The first exhibit is 804, A and B, which is actually

5 the same as the previous exhibit, which was Exhibit 402/3, tab 7. So

6 that's an exhibit that's previously been admitted that has been

7 renumbered, and that's now renumbered as 804A and B, the English and the

8 original Serbian version.

9 Then Exhibit 805, which is the Mladic and Karadzic indictment.

10 Then Exhibit 811, A and B, which is the Drinski Brigade order. 808, A and

11 B, another Drinski Brigade order. And then 815, which -- A and B, the

12 original and the English version. That's the war log from the Zvornik

13 Battalion of the Drinski Brigade. And then 810, A and B, which is the

14 other battle diary from the Drinski Brigade.

15 I would apply for 815 and 810 to be placed under seal because

16 the -- both of those documents contain reference to the witness by name,

17 and if they are under seal, that essentially ensures that his identity is

18 not revealed.

19 JUDGE RIAD: Defence counsel, do you have any comment?

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE RIAD: So let it be.

22 I'd like to thank you, Witness DA, and wish you a safe trip back

23 home.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. It was an honour for

25 me to be here.

Page 6979

1 [The witness withdrew]

2 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic.

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a new

4 witness. So the usher is not here for the moment.

5 JUDGE RIAD: Do you ask for any special measures?

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No. No.

7 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. We'll wait for the usher to return.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Visnjic.

10 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the General has just

11 informed me that he is suffering some pains, so if we could make a brief

12 break or if he could be allowed to leave the courtroom briefly.

13 JUDGE RIAD: You must have heard me speak to Judge Wald. I was

14 telling her the same thing. I was suggesting that we have a small break

15 and General Krstic can rest a little bit. But it will be a quarter of an

16 hour, and then we'll have no break till we finish your witness. Is that

17 all right with you? Good.

18 --- Recess taken at 1.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence would like to ask the

22 usher to be kind enough to bring in the witness.

23 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Usher, thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness. You will be asked now to

Page 6980

1 take the oath that is right before you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: ZELJKO BOROVCANIN

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. You can sit down.

7 The witness is yours.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my learned friends of

9 the Prosecution, we have before us Zeljko Borovcanin, Defence witness.

10 Examined by Mr. Petrusic:

11 Q. I would like Mr. Borovcanin to tell us his name for the record,

12 rather, his surname, to spell it out, as has been done in the proceedings

13 so far.

14 A. B-O-R-O-V-C-A-N-I-N.

15 Q. Mr. Borovcanin, will you tell us briefly when and where you were

16 born, where you lived, your short biography?

17 A. I was born on the 19th of April in 1958, village of Zunovi,

18 Sokolac municipality. I completed four years of primary school in my

19 native village. From there I went to Sarajevo, to Pofalici --

20 Q. I beg your pardon for interrupting you, Mr. Borovcanin. I know

21 that you're a little bit nervous. Please relax, take it easy, and I would

22 like to ask you to speak slowly because of the interpreters.

23 A. I understand. After completing four years of primary education, I

24 went to Sarajevo, where I completed secondary school of commerce, eight

25 years of education.

Page 6981

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8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6982

1 In 1977, I went to do my military service in the former Yugoslav

2 People's Army; in 1979, I returned from the army and I found a job in

3 special purpose industry in Sarajevo, in Vogosca.

4 I got married. I have two children. We lived in Sarajevo, in

5 Pofalici; I had a house of my own there.

6 Q. The war in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina started in April 1992.

7 Where were you when this happened?

8 A. At the beginning of April, when the war started, I was in

9 Sarajevo, in Pofalici, together with my family. At the beginning of

10 April, barricades were put up, and from that moment on I was unable to go

11 to work; we were surrounded on all sides, I mean Pofalici as a settlement,

12 until the 15th or 16th of May, 1992.

13 Q. Pofalici as a locality, was it inhabited by both Muslims and Serbs

14 and Croats? Was it a mixed population?

15 A. When I moved there 20 years ago, the population was majority Serb;

16 but for the last ten years prior to the war, large numbers of people came

17 to settle there from Sandzak, so that, just before the war broke out, the

18 majority population was Muslim.

19 Q. So in mid-May, you left your place of residence. Where did you

20 go?

21 A. On the 16th of May when the attack started, together with my

22 family and the other refugees - a total of 1.000 people - across the Hum

23 relay point, I managed to reach free territory under the control of the

24 Serbs. About 200 people were killed in Pofalici, mostly women, children,

25 and old people who did not manage to escape across this Hum mountain.

Page 6983

1 Q. You said you reached Serb territory. Where? Which territory?

2 Just please speak slowly and make pauses between the questions and

3 answers.

4 A. Via Hum we got to Zuc, territory controlled by the Serbs.

5 Q. Was it in Zuc that you joined the army of Bosnian Serbs?

6 A. No. We just spent the night there. Because we reached Zuc in the

7 evening, we spent the night. In the morning, the whole group of refugees

8 went on towards Vogosca, and I was with them together with my family.

9 From there I went to Zunovi, my native village, and on the 18th,

10 in the evening, I reached Zunovi and my parents' house.

11 Q. Were you a member of the army of Republika Srpska? And if so,

12 when did you join the army?

13 A. When I arrived in the village, two or three days later I was

14 drafted to the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade.

15 Q. Did you have a rank?

16 A. I was a private.

17 Q. So we're talking about May 1992. Did you remain in that unit

18 until the end of the war?

19 A. When I arrived in my native village, and after I was mobilised, as

20 a line of separation had not been established yet, my village was

21 surrounded and the members of the army stayed in the village until a line

22 was formed in Krusevo. That is when we went to the lines held by the 2nd

23 Romanija Motorised Brigade.

24 Q. So would you agree that, until the end of the war, you were a

25 member of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade?

Page 6984

1 A. Yes, I was a member of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade until

2 the end. But in 1994, I joined a reconnaissance platoon of the 2nd

3 Romanija Motorised Brigade.

4 Q. But that platoon was part of the brigade?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let us now go on to July 1995. So at the beginning of July 1995,

7 where were you or, rather, your unit?

8 A. At the beginning of July 1995, my unit was near the Olovsko

9 Theatre, the locality called Ajdinovici.

10 Q. So that was a fortified position, defence position? What kind of

11 a position was it?

12 A. It was a defence position, but we, as the reconnaissance platoon,

13 were there as reinforcements on the line because of attacks by Muslim

14 forces, because the line was not a very firm one.

15 Q. So how long did you stay there in those positions at Ajdinovici?

16 A. I can't tell you the exact dates. I said that in the preparations

17 for my testimony. But I think it was the 3rd or 4th of July that we got

18 orders from our commander to report to headquarters of the 2nd Romanija

19 Motorised Brigade.

20 Q. You said Palez?

21 A. No. Knezina. Knezina.

22 Q. Are those two localities close to one another?

23 A. Yes. Right next to one another.

24 Q. In the command, did you receive any orders, any assignments?

25 A. Our commander told us that we should be ready for the next day

Page 6985

1 because we would be going towards Zeleni Jadar.

2 Q. Did you get any more detailed instructions or guidelines?

3 A. No.

4 Q. That next day, the day that followed the day you arrived at

5 headquarters, did you start towards Zeleni Jadar?

6 A. Yes, we did. We started towards Zeleni Jadar the next day and we

7 arrived in the evening. We set up our tents and we spent the night

8 there. Let me just add that we were reinforced by another 30 men from the

9 front line, and my reconnaissance platoon numbered about 30 men.

10 Q. So from Knezina was it 30 plus 30 men that set off?

11 A. About 60 men, yes.

12 Q. When you set up camp, did you set up camp in Zeleni Jadar?

13 A. Yes. We set up camp there and spent the night there.

14 Q. Among the command staff, as this was the 2nd Romanija Brigade, was

15 any staff officer present?

16 A. The commander of the reconnaissance platoon, the late Milenko

17 Bojovic, and the battalion commander.

18 Q. So who was the commander of your reconnaissance platoon?

19 A. The late Milenko Bojovic.

20 Q. Please make pauses after my question. Can you tell us what date

21 that was when you were there at Zeleni Jadar?

22 A. I think it was the 5th to the 6th that we spent the night at

23 Zeleni Jadar.

24 Q. Once there, did you or your unit receive any more detailed

25 information as to why you were there, from your commander, and what your

Page 6986

1 concrete assignment was?

2 A. Talking to the commander, I learnt that -- and so did the other

3 members of the reconnaissance platoon -- that we needed to capture certain

4 features around Srebrenica.

5 Q. Preparing for this testimony, you told us which elevation points

6 you were -- your unit was supposed to gain control of, so will you tell

7 us, please?

8 A. Alibegovac, which we reached and we spent the night there, and we

9 thought that was the end of it, the end of the operation.

10 Q. But before you reached Alibegovac, did you engage in any combat,

11 that is, from the moment you arrived to the Zeleni Jadar region until you

12 reached Alibegovac?

13 A. Yes. On the 6th, I think it was, that we went on a reconnaissance

14 mission towards Jasenovo and Kiprovo. We spent that day reconnaissance

15 duty. We came across a minefield. And then we went back to Jasenovo and

16 we stayed there for two or three days. I think it was until the 9th of

17 July, because the weather was bad.

18 Q. On the way to Kiprovo, or rather Alibegovac, did you encounter any

19 resistance by the Muslim forces?

20 A. We had some minor resistance at Kiprovo.

21 Q. Did you encounter UNPROFOR forces?

22 A. When we passed Kiprovo, there's a slope there that was covered in

23 woods. When we got to the edge of the wood, there was a field there, and

24 on that field we saw a checkpoint held by UNPROFOR which was fenced in

25 with barbed wire.

Page 6987

1 Q. Did you open fire against UNPROFOR members?

2 A. No, because we had received strict orders that we must not fire at

3 UNPROFOR forces.

4 Q. Did you gain control or capture, I mean in military usage, that

5 checkpoint?

6 A. As I said, when we reached the edge of the wood down there, we saw

7 that there was an observation post within the compound of the UNPROFOR

8 forces, and from that observation post, looking through our binoculars, we

9 saw the UNPROFOR soldier waving to us to approach them.

10 Q. Will you tell us what happened next.

11 A. We stopped there for a moment, because you know how it is, and

12 maybe five or ten minutes later we went forward. When we crossed the

13 field, we saw him waving to us to keep to the left-hand side, which we

14 did. We came to the entrance of the checkpoint and we stopped there.

15 There were three of us: the commander and two of us soldiers.

16 Q. Did you communicate with the UNPROFOR soldiers?

17 A. Since the commander could speak English, I think that their

18 commanding officer came out. They established contact. And we soldiers

19 were not allowed to go in, nor to have any contact with UNPROFOR

20 soldiers. Afterwards, I learnt from the commander that, before us, Muslim

21 forces had been there which had pressured the Dutch Battalion forces which

22 had been stationed there, and that they had killed one of their soldiers,

23 forcing them to shoot at us so that they could withdraw more easily.

24 Q. You said that there was communication between your commander and

25 the commander of that UNPROFOR post. What kind of contact was it? A

Page 6988

1 conversation? Was it -- when you said "contact," tell us what you meant.

2 A. A conversation. They talked. Because we had strict orders if we

3 come across UNPROFOR forces, that we must not shoot, that we must not

4 seize their sidearms or equipment, and the agreement was that those troops

5 should be escorted towards Bratunac, that is, the UNPROFOR forces.

6 Q. Did you escort them to Bratunac?

7 A. We soldiers in front of the checkpoint took control of the

8 trenches which had previously been held by the Muslims, and people were

9 designated to accompany them towards Bratunac.

10 Q. Did they hand over to you their personal weapons?

11 A. While I was there, no, but I heard that they were escorted,

12 together with their personal weapons and equipment, to Bratunac.

13 Q. So as a member of this reconnaissance platoon, you were, one could

14 say, a forerunner of the rest of your unit which was following you?

15 A. That was our purpose. That was our duty.

16 Q. So when you reached this post at Alibegovac, was there any

17 shelling from heavy weapons that used shells as ammunition?

18 A. No, because it wasn't necessary anyway, as the Muslims were

19 withdrawing, retreating.

20 Q. As far as I understand you, you and your unit reached that

21 position without any significant resistance.

22 MR. CAYLEY: Excuse me. I'm sorry, Mr. Petrusic. Judge Riad, I'm

23 sorry. Could we just have a date? I know -- are we still talking about

24 the 9th of July? Because many events have happened. I just wondered

25 where we were at the point when the witness said that there was no

Page 6989

1 shelling. Excuse me.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, Mr. Cayley. In my next

3 questions we will come to the date.

4 Q. So my question was: When you reached this position at Alibegovac,

5 there was no serious conflict with your unit?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Mr. Borovcanin, could you tell us when you reached this position

8 held by UNPROFOR, that is, Alibegovac?

9 A. On the 9th of July, in the evening.

10 Q. Did you move forward on that same date, or rather, what did your

11 unit do next?

12 A. On the 9th, in the evening, we reached the line assigned to us and

13 the commander gave us orders to spend the night there.

14 Q. What about the next day, the 10th of July?

15 A. On the 10th of July, we received orders from the commander to head

16 towards the settlement of Slapovici.

17 Q. Throughout this period, from the 6th of July until the 10th of

18 July, in the morning, were you aware of who your neighbours were on your

19 right-hand and left-hand side?

20 A. We did. We had to. That was our duty.

21 Q. Could you tell us who was on your right and who on your left?

22 A. On the right was the Birac Brigade and on the left the Zvornik

23 Brigade.

24 Q. So they, too, have their own axis of attack.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6990

1 Q. Who did you receive orders from on the 10th of July, in the

2 morning?

3 A. We received all orders from our commander, the late Branko

4 Bojovic.

5 Q. Do you know who gave him orders?

6 A. We soldiers only knew about our own commander. As to who he got

7 his orders from, that for us meant a superior level of command.

8 Q. Would it be logical that if you were part of the 2nd Romanija

9 Brigade, that your commander received orders from the brigade commander?

10 A. Yes, correct, from the brigade commander.

11 Q. So let us go back to that order or, rather, your next assignment

12 on the 10th, in the morning, the attack towards Slapovici.

13 Would you explain to us what happened on the way to Slapovici.

14 Did you engage in any combat?

15 A. When we reached the outskirts of Slapovici, a group was designated

16 to reconnoitre and see whether there were men there or Muslim forces. A

17 group of us, four or five, entered the village of Slapovici, passed

18 through it and came out on a hill overlooking Slapovici. There was

19 absolutely no one around.

20 We gave the sign. There was some hay or something, I don't know

21 exactly, but we set fire to it, and we gave the signal that the rest of

22 the unit could pass through safely.

23 Q. As you passed through Slapovici and, if you know, when the rest of

24 the unit passed through, was there any torching of the village of

25 Slapovici, torching of houses in the village?

Page 6991

1 A. No. There weren't any, I'm sure.

2 Q. Was there artillery support that shelled facilities in Slapovici?

3 A. There was no need because Slapovici had already been abandoned.

4 Q. So after passing through Slapovici, you reached the feature you

5 called Brdo. Can you tell us anything more about that feature, to define

6 it?

7 A. It's a little hill; I really don't know whether it has a name.

8 Because when we reached Brdo, there was resistance by the Muslim forces.

9 That was the strongest resistance that we encountered in the course of the

10 operation along our axis.

11 Q. So we're talking about the 10th of July. Could you roughly tell

12 us what time of day it was?

13 A. I think it was about 12.00.

14 Q. Tell us, did you continue the attack? What happened with your

15 unit when you reached that point?

16 A. The unit went on, went forward.

17 Q. Can you tell us briefly where you got to by the end of that day,

18 the 10th of July?

19 A. When we left Slapovici, we reached the asphalt road, and I think

20 it leads from Zeleni Jadar towards Srebrenica. We moved on for awhile and

21 then we stopped and spent the night there. We stopped for the night.

22 Q. When you reached the road, Zeleni Jadar-Srebrenica, was there any

23 resistance by the BH army there?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So your unit stopped for the night there, that is, the Zeleni

Page 6992

1 Jadar-Srebrenica road.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The next day, the 11th of July?

4 A. On the 11th of July, in the morning, we were given orders to march

5 along the left-hand side of the road. There was a valley there, that we

6 should go 'round it, because from a position - I think it's called Bojna -

7 there was an artillery piece firing so we couldn't go on. Our

8 reconnaissance unit started, and around 12.00 or 1.00, it captured that

9 elevation point as well.

10 Q. You said there was a Browning firing. A Browning, is that a

11 large-calibre weapon?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On that day, the 11th of July, were there any NATO air strikes?

14 A. We were in the valley. We heard the explosions but we didn't know

15 what it was. Later on, we learnt that these were air strikes against our

16 targets.

17 Q. Tell us, did you or, rather, your unit enter Srebrenica on the

18 11th of July?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can it be said that your unit was at the locality Bojna at the

21 time?

22 A. Maybe two or three soldiers left without permission of the

23 commander, but in the evening, we were all there at Bojna.

24 Q. In the evening of the 11th of July?

25 A. Yes, the 11th of July.

Page 6993

1 Q. That is where you were during the night between the 11th and the

2 12th, so did your unit stay there for the night?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the 12th of July, did you receive any orders from your

5 commander?

6 A. On the 12th of July, we were given orders by the commander to

7 move, to search the terrain in the direction of Jahorina, Viogora, and

8 there was a third place whose name escapes me just now. That is where the

9 units were to assemble; to search the terrain on the way there and to

10 assemble there. Suceska was the third locality.

11 Q. Now that you've said Suceska, you are talking about the search and

12 assembly in the area of Jahorina, Viogora, and Suceska.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Did your unit assemble there on the 12th of July?

15 A. Yes, we did. It wasn't just us. There was the Zvornik and also

16 the Birac Brigades that assembled there.

17 Q. And the commanders of those units, were they there?

18 A. I can't say exactly. But I do know that when we got up there we

19 were all tired. We had Dr. Zugic, and our leader conveyed to him that we

20 were tired and that there were some people suffering from a skin disease.

21 The skin of their feet had split. And after that the order was received

22 that we ought to line up and that we would be addressed by General

23 Mladic.

24 Q. And did General Mladic address you?

25 A. He addressed us and said on the occasion that we were to go to

Page 6994

1 Zepa.

2 Q. Can you be certain, although in the course of our talk with you so

3 far -- can you be certain as to the day when General Mladic addressed

4 you? When was that exactly?

5 A. I said then, as far as the date is concerned when we had our

6 conversation, that I just know that it was the entry into Srebrenica and

7 the search of the terrain. And as to the General Ratko Mladic's address

8 to us, whether it was on the 12th or the 13th, in the morning, when we

9 moved off to Zepa, I can't be quite sure.

10 Q. After that search of the terrain and the assembly of your unit and

11 the other units, where did you go?

12 A. We went back to Jasenovo, where we started out from and where our

13 tents were.

14 Q. You are mentioning the Jasenovo for the first time now. Is it the

15 Zeleni Jadar area?

16 A. I forgot to say that the tents from Zeleni Jadar were transferred

17 to Jasenovo.

18 Q. To the best of your recollections, this was on the 13th when your

19 unit moved onwards towards Zepa; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us which route your unit took?

22 A. Our unit, I know for certain, did not pass across Srebrenica,

23 Potocari, because we would have got out onto the road which leads from

24 Konjevic Polje, Kasaba - and that is something that we know from earlier

25 on - but it took a different route. And that was the first time that I

Page 6995

1 ever passed that way myself.

2 Q. Could you tell us when you reached the Zepa area?

3 A. We arrived in the evening, and it was the Plana area where we

4 spent the night.

5 Q. The Plana area is the broader environs of Zepa; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What about the other units? Had they arrived there too?

8 A. They were arriving. It was already getting dark and everybody

9 fended for themselves; where they found themselves they spent the night.

10 Q. On the 14th, in the morning, if I follow you - you were speaking

11 of the 13th - but on the morning of the 14th, where were you and your

12 unit?

13 A. On the morning of the 14th, we received orders to move to Pozepje

14 [phoen], whether it was a school or a shop. But we were supposed to be

15 the reserve for the Zvornik Brigade somewhere there.

16 Q. You say "the reserve for the Zvornik Brigade." What do you mean

17 by that?

18 A. The Zvornik Brigade held the main axis of the combat line towards

19 Zepa, and because we were tired, we were left to stand as a reserve

20 force.

21 Q. Did you take part in the fighting?

22 A. On the 15th of July, in the morning, we received the order to

23 replace the Zvornik Brigade which had to return to its command

24 headquarters, and we took up its axis and line. And I later learnt that

25 it had to return because of the breakthrough of the Muslim forces from

Page 6996

1 Srebrenica towards Kladanj.

2 Q. You said you learnt later on, "We learnt later on that this was

3 because of the breakthrough of forces." Did you learn anything more about

4 that or was that just a piece of information along the usual lines?

5 A. That's all we learnt. We heard that. Nobody actually informed

6 us. We heard about it.

7 Q. Now, briefly, let us move on. You entered that main axis and the

8 fighting towards Zepa lasted in continuity?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. During that time, during the time you spent there, that is to

11 say -- let me rephrase that. Who issued you orders?

12 A. All orders to the reconnaissance platoon were issued by our

13 leader.

14 Q. In that time frame, that is to say, during those fighting

15 operations towards Zepa, did you see General Krstic?

16 A. Yes. He would come frequently to tour the line and to visit us

17 fighters, particularly those of us who were in the main section of the

18 combat operations, main theatre of operations.

19 Q. When he visited you, did he address the commanders personally, the

20 leaders, the fighters? Whom did he address?

21 A. Well, he talked to all of us.

22 Q. General Krstic was the commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade at

23 the time when you were a member of that brigade; is that right?

24 A. In 1992, in the place of the brigade commander, instead of Veljko

25 Bosanac, General Radislav Krstic came and he stayed up until 1994.

Page 6997

1 Q. Did you have occasion to meet him more frequently during that

2 period?

3 A. He was with us fighters all the time up at that part of the Olovo

4 battleground. He spent most of his time there and lost his leg there.

5 Q. During the time that he commanded the brigade, do you happen to

6 know whether there were any prisoners of war in the command of your

7 brigade?

8 A. As I live in Knezina as a refugee, a displaced person, I know that

9 there were some Muslims captured who were put up in Knezina in a building

10 there. They were detained there.

11 Q. What was the treatment towards those prisoners?

12 A. They ate the same food that the army ate which was in Knezina.

13 They received cigarettes. And I had occasion to talk to them as well.

14 They were satisfied. Nobody mistreated them in any way. And they left.

15 I don't know exactly when. But I did have occasion after the war to meet

16 a man who had been detained there and to say hello to the General, the man

17 who was in prison. He told me to say hello to the General.

18 Q. Tell us, please: The surname Borovcanin, is that a common

19 surname? Is it rare in those parts or is it a common, widespread surname?

20 A. Half of Romanija -- half the people in Romanija have the surname

21 Borovcanin.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] May I just take a moment to confer

23 with my colleague, Your Honour?

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

Page 6998

1 Q. You said that that superior level of command, that you weren't

2 well acquainted with it. That would be the essence of your answer to one

3 of the questions I asked. But my next question has precisely to do with

4 that. Do you have any knowledge, and if so, when did you come by that

5 knowledge, as to when General Krstic became the commander of the corps, of

6 the Drina Corps?

7 A. Let me just answer your previous question. When I said that I had

8 no insight into that, into superior levels of command, I meant in combat

9 operations, as regards combat operations. That's what I had in mind. And

10 General Krstic -- I learnt that later on, after returning from Zepa to the

11 command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade. That was at the beginning of

12 August -- he took up the post of commander of the Drina Corps.

13 Q. So your knowledge of that dates back to his appointment after you

14 came back to the brigade headquarters in Knezina; is that right?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Do you happen to know whether, in the course of the combat

17 activities around Zepa, so that we don't have to go back to that again,

18 whether there were any prisoners of war taken in the area?

19 A. Along our axis there was not, but as negotiations were underway

20 and as our unit was frequently stopped in our combat activities to let a

21 Muslim delegation pass through towards negotiations, they always had time

22 to withdraw to their reserve positions.

23 Q. So you received orders to cease the fighting, to stop your combat

24 activities, when, as you say, delegations were supposed to pass through on

25 their way to the negotiations; is that right?

Page 6999

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who issued those orders?

3 A. Mostly those orders were issued by our leader, but on one

4 occasion, and that was by the Purtici area, when I heard on the Motorola

5 General Krstic issuing a strict order that all hostilities be stopped to

6 let a delegation pass which was moving from Zepa, from the relay, that is

7 to say, towards Zepa, to attend negotiations.

8 Q. Did you and your unit, during the fighting that took place at

9 Srebrenica and Zepa, did you receive instructions from the command as to

10 how you should behave, what your conduct should be towards the civilian

11 population and towards prisoners of war?

12 A. Yes, we did. Every battalion had the officer in charge of moral

13 guidance, and he spent all his time with us. And we would receive orders

14 from our commanders and our leaders as to how we should behave in the case

15 of prisoners of war being taken.

16 Q. Let us clarify the term. I know what you mean by "the officer in

17 charge of moral guidance." In our own language we know what it means, but

18 let's explain. It is an individual dealing with legal, religious, and

19 other affairs linked to the brigade; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this completes the

22 examination of this witness by the Defence, my examination of Witness

23 Borovcanin.

24 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic.

25 Now, Mr. Cayley, do you think you can do that today?

Page 7000

1 MR. CAYLEY: Not in 15 minutes, Judge Riad, no. I think --

2 JUDGE RIAD: Would you like to start?

3 MR. CAYLEY: If you wish, I can start today and use the time.

4 JUDGE RIAD: Go ahead.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Cayley:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Borovcanin.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. Now, am I right in saying that you were born on the 19th of April,

9 1958, in Zunovi in Sokolac?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And I think you've already said in your evidence in chief that you

12 lived in Sarajevo for a number of years. How old were you when you moved

13 to Sarajevo?

14 A. I attended fifth form in Sarajevo, so that was in 1969. And since

15 then, I have spent all my life in Sarajevo, that is to say, up until 1992.

16 Q. So you lived in Sarajevo until the war began, essentially?

17 A. Up until the 16th of May, 1992.

18 Q. And am I right in saying that you lived in a street called Humska

19 Street?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was the number of your house? 210?

22 A. 210.

23 Q. What was your job at the factory that you spoke about? Were you a

24 lathe operator?

25 A. I worked in the factory that made ball bearings, UTN. On a lathe,

Page 7001

1 yes.

2 Q. And that was in Sarajevo?

3 A. In Vogosca, near Sarajevo.

4 Q. Do you know a man called Radomir Riscevic [phoen]?

5 A. No.

6 Q. At the beginning of the war in Gornji Pofalici, were you engaged

7 yourself as a volunteer in any Serbian defence units in that place?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Borovcanin --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.

11 JUDGE RIAD: [Microphone not activated].

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge Riad.

13 MR. CAYLEY:

14 Q. Now, could you tell me again the date on which you joined the 2nd

15 Romanija Brigade?

16 A. The 2nd Romanija Brigade, I was mobilised into it on the 20th or

17 the 21st.

18 Q. Of which month?

19 A. Of May.

20 Q. In which year was that?

21 A. 1992.

22 Q. Now, in 1995 what was the name of the commander of the 2nd

23 Romanija Brigade, in July of 1995?

24 A. The commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade in July 1995 was Mirko

25 Trivic.

Page 7002

1 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. We have to adjourn immediately. There is

2 an alarm in the Tribunal. Everybody has to leave in good peace and

3 order. And we'll adjourn until Monday morning, 9.20. So please leave the

4 courtroom.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m., to

6 be reconvened on Monday, the 6th day of November,

7 2000, at 9.20 a.m.

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23

24

25