Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8496

1 Wednesday, 13 December 2000

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, ladies and

6 gentlemen. Good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters; good

7 morning to the OTP and the Defence counsel.

8 Good morning, General Krstic. How are you today? Is everything

9 all right today? Are you better? You may remain seated, General.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not feeling

11 well, and they have -- the doctors have told me that my leg might have to

12 be amputated.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the doctors are considering

14 that, are they?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Well, we regret that profoundly.

17 Please sit down, and we hope that you will be feeling better.

18 Let us take up our work where we left off, and I know that we have

19 come to the point of documents, but perhaps we can hear who the next

20 witness is, and then we can see to the documents after that. We have a

21 set of documents, but shall we allow the witness -- shall we hear about

22 the witness first please. Mr. Petrusic.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours,

24 Mr. President, my learned colleagues of the Prosecution, and everybody

25 else in the courtroom.

Page 8497

1 The Defence for today has one more witness who will be testifying.

2 The witness has asked for protective measures: voice, image, and name. He

3 has asked for a pseudonym. Prior to this morning's proceedings, we talked

4 to the Prosecutor, and he agrees with those requests.

5 The Defence, in view of this agreement, will present the reasons

6 for which it is requesting protective measures for this witness. First of

7 all, the first reason is the environment in which he lives, his

8 profession. He is a professional officer, and the possibility of working

9 together with representatives, that is to say, the army of the other

10 entity, and the continuous return of refugees from the area in which he

11 lives, this, in his view, could have some negative implications because in

12 his place of residence, which is a relatively small place, he is known by

13 both sides. When I say "both sides," I mean both populations, both ethnic

14 groups living in the locality.

15 So those are the reasons for which the witness has requested

16 protective measures, because he feels that there could be some adverse

17 consequences if it be known that he has testified here. And he was an

18 active participant in the events of 1995.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. Petrusic.

20 I see the Prosecutor, it is Mr. McCloskey, on his feet. Please

21 proceed.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President. Yes, we've spoken,

23 and we concur.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The Chamber, bearing in mind the

25 reasons presented by the Defence, and in view of no opposition from the

Page 8498

1 OTP, and taking into consideration the fact that there are reasons which

2 justify protective measures to be accorded, the Chamber does indeed accord

3 those protective measures so that the testimony of the witness will be

4 conducted under those protective measures.

5 May we have the blinds drawn, please, for a moment, and have the

6 witness shown in, please. Mr. Usher.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before the witness

8 comes into the courtroom, the Defence would like to propose to the Trial

9 Chamber that we go into closed session for a moment because the witness

10 will identify the unit he was in and which he commanded, and so the

11 identification of that unit would lead to his own identification, which

12 would mean that the protective measures would not serve their purpose. So

13 that is my request. It won't last more than a few minutes while we get

14 through the witness' particulars.

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Registrar, what is

16 the pseudonym accorded to this witness? DF?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it's DF, and he is Defence

18 Witness number 10.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

20 much.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness DF. It is

23 I who am addressing you. Can you hear me?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Good morning.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] We need the usher. Would you

Page 8499

1 please hand the solemn declaration to the witness for him to read.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I solemnly declare that

3 I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS DF

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please be seated, and try to sit

7 as comfortably as possible.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you for coming, first of

10 all. You are going to take a look at the piece of paper handed to you and

11 tell us whether that is your name, with a yes or no.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Okay. Thank you very much. We

14 are now going to go into private session for a few moments.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 8501

1 (redacted)

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness DF --

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic, you may

15 continue.

16 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness DF, at the beginning of 1995, where was your battalion

18 located?

19 A. My battalion was located on the following positions: to the left,

20 Lomanac brook, the village of Pajici, Gaj, Lemesac, Stolice, Vresinje,

21 trig 555, Ilina Bara exclusively.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I should like to ask the usher to

23 have Defence Exhibit D25 shown to the witness, please.

24 Q. Witness DF, you said -- you told us what those points were. Could

25 you take a look at the map, please. Place it in front of you, and draw

Page 8502

1 into it with the marker that you will find in front of you these points,

2 and we'll put the map back onto the ELMO once you have done that for your

3 explanations for the Trial Chamber.

4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, you need not place the

5 map on the ELMO, but this will be a problem for the Trial Chamber, I fear,

6 because we can see the markings of the other brigades. But let us try it

7 another way.

8 Mr. Usher, could you just place the upper portion on the ELMO?

9 No.

10 I think that we could overcome this problem by availing ourselves

11 of the services of the Prosecutor. They have a map which has not been

12 marked previously, so the witness can mark in the points on that map.

13 Yes, Mr. Usher, you may place it on the ELMO.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could get a new number for that exhibit so

15 we can make it clear. Thanks.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar, may we

17 have a number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number could be D25/1.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you. And perhaps we ought

20 to clarify matters.

21 Mr. Petrusic, once the witness has marked something into the

22 exhibit, then the exhibit must be marked for -- that is to say, it must be

23 corrected. We ought to know what the witness has inscribed on the exhibit

24 in order to be able to revert back to the origin of the exhibit.

25 Mr. Petrusic, please proceed.

Page 8503

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness DF, is that the line of your position, the one you held in

3 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. For purposes of the record, can you tell us what line that was

6 with the places marked?

7 A. I spoke in more detail of some points that are not on the map, but

8 as I was in that region of defence, I know them very well and they are the

9 following features: The Lomanac stream inclusive, the Pajici feature.

10 This is where the Gaj feature is, approximately. Then we have the Lemesac

11 feature; Stolice; Vresinje; trig 555; Ilina Bara as it was called,

12 exclusively. That is to say, there is a road here. It is a bad road,

13 dirt road, and below that road was where my last soldier was, just

14 underneath that dirt road.

15 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For purposes of the record, the

16 witness has, on D25/1, Exhibit D25/1, drawn in with a green marker the

17 line which was his position in 1995.

18 Q. Did your unit control the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And do you know who controlled that road, who was in control of

21 the road?

22 A. The whole time, that road was controlled by the civilian police,

23 and they set up a permanent checkpoint in the region of Konjevic Polje.

24 From time to time, at the entrance to the town of Bratunac, they would set

25 up a checkpoint and control this, control the movement of military

Page 8504

1 conscripts; that is to say, the military police of our brigade would

2 control that. So that I did not have orders binding me, obliging me to

3 control the passage of goods, resources, people, along that road,

4 communication line.

5 Q. Is it in the area of responsibility -- of your area of

6 responsibility?

7 A. My battalion did not hold the area of responsibility. My

8 battalion had a defence region.

9 Q. Could you, Witness DF, tell us the difference between an area of

10 responsibility and what you call a region of defence or a defence region?

11 A. An area of responsibility is more a peacetime designation and it

12 does not apply to the level of battalion. In defence, a battalion is

13 assigned a defence region and a brigade a defence zone or area. Also, on

14 the attack, the brigade is assigned an attack zone and a battalion an axis

15 or a direction of attack.

16 Q. Did you, or rather, your unit have any depth of defence?

17 A. My battalion did not have a deep defence region. Actually, for

18 there to be any defence, any depth in the defence, this implies that you

19 have companies on the front line, on regulated and fortified positions,

20 and in the rear second line -- a second line company holding regulated or

21 fortified positions, which, in this particular case, I did not have.

22 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Can you ask him to lower his voice

23 because we can't hear even the translation because it is so high, so

24 loud.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour. We didn't hear you.

Page 8505

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Page 8506

1 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. His voice is so loud we cannot even

2 listen to the translation. Thank you.

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Witness DF, you have heard the comment of His Honour. Though --

5 the equipment is highly sophisticated, so you need not worry that we will

6 not be able to hear you.

7 A. I'll try, but as an officer, I have become accustomed to speaking

8 out loud to my soldiers.

9 Q. Well, let's go back now to this question. How did you defend the

10 area if you had no depth?

11 A. My battalion had a line system of defence, a linear system, which

12 means that, along this line that I have drawn, our soldiers were

13 deployed. First of all, because of the assignment of the battalion and

14 because of the size of the area it was tasked to defend for according to

15 rules in force, a battalion can defend 3 to 5 kilometres of territory, and

16 in this area, as you can see, the line is about 10 kilometres long.

17 So primarily because of the possibilities of combat, the battalion

18 was forced to organise such a method of defence in which there virtually

19 was no defence depth.

20 Q. The reason for this was the shortage of personnel, equipment,

21 weapons, et cetera, was it not?

22 A. Yes, that is one of the main reasons, for our battalion throughout

23 the period had to set aside a certain number of men who were deployed

24 elsewhere throughout the Republika Srpska.

25 Q. In view of such a drawn-out, linear defence, were there cases of

Page 8507

1 incursions of enemy groups behind the lines of your unit?

2 A. Yes, there were such examples. In fact, many. Around mid-1993,

3 about 500 metres from my command post, an ambush was set involving the

4 death of civilians. Also, there were frequent incursions of groups into

5 the area of Konjevic Polje where civilians were killed, Vojin Lazic and

6 Ikonija Lazic. Also, in the area around the Lomanac stream, sabotage

7 groups were infiltrated so that I requested from my superior command that

8 this area be covered with mines so as the gap should be closed.

9 Q. Let us now go on to July 1995. Did you and your unit at the

10 beginning of July 1995, were you at the position we have just described?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were there any particular developments along the defence lines

13 held by your battalion in those days?

14 A. There was evidence of frequent provocations by enemy forces using

15 infantry weapons, particularly from the area trig 413, Cerska Kosa.

16 THE INTERPRETER: I can't hear the witness. Could the witness

17 speak into the microphone, please.

18 A. Vicac. So as I was saying, there were provocations by the enemy,

19 using infantry weapons, from the area of trig 413.

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. It's all right, it is in the record, but in the future, please

22 bear in mind that you should speak into the microphone.

23 In view of these frequent provocations that you have mentioned,

24 did you, or rather, your command, take any steps? Did you report to your

25 superior command about this?

Page 8508

1 A. Yes. In my regular and interim reports, I would brief my command

2 about these events, and also at regular briefings at the brigade command

3 when I would inform the commander of the situation on the ground.

4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher for his

5 assistance, please. Could you show Exhibit 404, footnote 193, please.

6 Q. Witness DF, we have here a request written by you, asking for

7 replenishment of materiel from your superior command. Could you tell us

8 the reasons? This is dated the 4th of July, 1995. What are the reasons

9 for requesting the replenishment of materiel and equipment?

10 A. As I have said, the enemy frequently opened fire towards my

11 battalion, which was an indication that it was planning to do something;

12 and also on the basis of the order issued by the brigade command to raise

13 combat readiness to the maximum level; and on the basis of available

14 intelligence information, according to which the enemy, with the strength

15 equivalent to one brigade, was preparing an attack, was preparing to

16 attack my battalion; bearing all this in mind, I took all the necessary

17 organisational and concrete steps to be ready for the attack.

18 Q. Witness DF, you mentioned the raising of combat readiness to the

19 maximum level. You were assigned this task by the commander?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The brigade commander?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know what date that was?

24 A. As far as I can remember, this was on the 4th of July. We

25 received the order to raise combat readiness to hundred per cent level.

Page 8509

1 Q. Witness DF, according to this request addressed by you on the

2 4th of July, would you say that these were customary requests of materiel

3 and equipment? Would it fit into your regular requirements in terms of

4 combat sets? So could you comment on it, please.

5 A. As my battalion was short, first of all of ammunition and also of

6 necessary quantities of fuel, on the same day I drafted this request in

7 writing and addressed it to the Superior Command for replenishment with,

8 as can be seen from this request, very small quantities of ammunition,

9 materiel, and equipment.

10 Q. Witness DF, where were you on the 6th of July, the day when the

11 attack on Srebrenica started or, rather, the beginning of the operation

12 Krivaja 95?

13 A. I was at my command post in the Magasici area. Actually, my

14 observers reported that in the broader area of the 3rd Infantry Battalion,

15 certain explosions could be heard. I called up the operations officer on

16 duty in the brigade, asking him what was going on. His answer was that

17 our units were carrying out an attack and that we should raise combat

18 readiness to the maximum.

19 Also, it was my duty to capture my own forward command post in the

20 area of Vresinje. Before that, I issued specific orders to my subordinate

21 officers in connection with the need to carry out resolute defence.

22 Q. On that day and the days that followed the 6th of July, did you

23 have any clashes with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, the

24 forces of the 28th Division?

25 A. Around that time, the provocations continued with infantry

Page 8510

1 weapons, and this took the form of so-called forcible reconnaissance, or

2 reconnaissance by force, and it was clear that members of the

3 28th Division were taking up positions, and it was also evident that they

4 were regrouping around the UNPROFOR checkpoints.

5 Q. Was fire exchanged between the participants in that conflict?

6 A. You mean between us and members of the 28th Division?

7 Q. Yes, of course.

8 A. I said that there were provocations with infantry weapons, and it

9 was our duty to respond if we were directly threatened.

10 Q. Tell us, how long did that situation last?

11 A. It went on like that until the 12th.

12 Q. On the 12th of July, did you remain in the same positions as you

13 have described?

14 A. No. In the defence region of my battalion, the brigade Chief of

15 Staff was also present, and I received an order from him that on that day

16 I should take up positions in the village -- around the village of

17 Cizmici, which I did in the afternoon hours.

18 Q. So you moved your line, your defence line, on the 12th of July.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness DF, could you show us on the map, or rather, draw on the

21 map the line indicating the positions you took up in the afternoon of the

22 12th of July.

23 A. I will do so with a dotted line, if that is all right.

24 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the dotted line

25 indicates, the dotted green line on Exhibit D25/1, Witness DF has

Page 8511

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Page 8512

1 indicated the position held by his units on the 12th of July in the

2 afternoon.

3 Q. In view of the positions you took up then, did you have control

4 over the area in your rear, behind your lines?

5 A. I don't know what exactly you mean. We covered that area, and we

6 considered it clear.

7 Q. You mean that there were no enemy soldiers in that area?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher to show the

10 witness Exhibit OTP 487, and as the document identifies the unit, that is,

11 the brigade ...

12 Q. In this regular report of your superior command, it says that

13 during the day, enemy -- the enemy attempted a breakthrough going through

14 your area to Tuzla and Kladanj.

15 Witness DF, did you see or have any knowledge about the pulling

16 out of these units? Did you have any contact with them?

17 A. When taking up these positions, we did not encounter enemy forces,

18 nor did we, that afternoon, see them at all.

19 Q. The document also says in paragraph 2 that "our" forces are

20 clearing the enclave and preventing the breakthrough of the enemy along

21 the mentioned axes. Could you explain this term "clearing the enclave"?

22 What does it mean?

23 A. It means that we have to protect ourselves against possible

24 surprises because, according to our tactics, the enemy can be expected in

25 the depth of our territory to seek to infiltrate diversionary sabotage

Page 8513

1 groups and so-called stragglers.

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the usher for OTP 464,

3 please.

4 And since there are technical possibilities, to prevent the

5 identification of the unit, that this exhibit should not be made public by

6 the ELMO because, as far as I have been informed, it is possible for the

7 exhibit to be seen on the monitors in the courtroom but not outside by the

8 public, so that would be my suggestion for these exhibits, please.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. The technical booth

10 will not broadcast it outside. Yes, they have taken care of it.

11 You may continue, Mr. Petrusic.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness DF, on the 14th of July you received an order to carry out

14 a search of the terrain. Can you tell us a little more about that order

15 as your unit is actively included and specifically referred to in

16 paragraph 1 of this order?

17 A. This order was issued to me orally, and if I may explain on the

18 map --

19 Q. Just comment on the order first, and then we'll give you the map.

20 A. The task of my battalion was to search the terrain within the

21 following boundaries: To the right, the junction of the Bratunac-Konjevic

22 Polje-Jezestica road, or elevation 316 to be more precise, up to trig

23 point 555 exclusive, Lupoglav, trig point 675, the village of Susnjari

24 exclusive; on the left side, the Lomanac brook or stream, the village of

25 Hranca, the village of Pale, the feature Zvijezda, trig point 906. The

Page 8514

1 command post, which I had already established in the area of the village

2 of Cizmici, was confirmed by this order, so my command post was in the

3 village of Cizmici.

4 Q. Witness DF, will you now draw on the map your route, though

5 perhaps it would be advisable to do so on another copy.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could use another colour, that would be

8 helpful. I'm sure green is going to start getting a bit confusing.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I was just going to suggest that.

10 Perhaps red would be better, but there doesn't seem to be any.

11 A. I am going to mark the boundaries which my battalion was to have

12 searched the terrain.

13 Q. Witness, DF, you can comment while you're drawing this in.

14 A. It is this junction, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Jezestica road, and

15 it is elevation 316, and then we have trig point 555 exclusive, the

16 Lupoglav feature, the village of Susnjari exclusive; on the left side,

17 Lomanac brook or stream, the village of Pale, and the feature Zvijezda.

18 Can I draw in where I was on the 13th?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Witness DF, on the line that you have just drawn in and as far as

22 I can see, it was with respect to the Vresinje feature. Would you place

23 the date the 13th of July there, please.

24 A. [Marks]

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're not able to see any of this, so it doesn't

Page 8515

1 have a lot of meaning for us now.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. We're now going to see

3 it. I think that we have this problem of protective measures because if

4 the witness draws in what he is drawing in on the ELMO, we would be able

5 to follow, but that's the problem. So we're now going to have to repeat

6 it all. But never mind, Mr. Petrusic, please proceed, and let us see the

7 reasoning of the witness. Let's follow what he's been doing.

8 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness, on

9 Exhibit D25/1, used a blue marker to draw in the line of the search of the

10 terrain pursuant to the order received on the 14th of July, 1995, and

11 underneath the Vresinje feature, which was also indicated with a blue

12 marker, he wrote the date, the 13th of July, that is to say, the position

13 that he and his unit -- where he and his unit were located on that

14 particular day.

15 Q. Witness DF, is that locality --

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, where is the

17 date? I don't see it. Where has the witness indicated the date?

18 A. Yes. It's not quite clear. I apologise. It's a very thick

19 marker. [Indicates]

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness DF, could you write the date in with an ordinary biro so

22 that we can see it.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Witness DF, you and your -- that is to say, from this position

25 where you were on the 13th of July, in the direction of Vresinje Pale, did

Page 8516

1 you start clearing the terrain pursuant to order 453/2 of the 14th of

2 July, 1995?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell us please, Witness DF, which positions did you reach in this

5 operation of clearing up the terrain?

6 A. When I received the order on that day, I did not start this work

7 because I received the order rather late in the day. So on the 14th and

8 the 15th, from these positions, I started reconnaissance work. I did

9 reconnoitering in front of the line attained, and I reported to my

10 Superior Command about that.

11 It was only on the 16th of July that I undertook the search of the

12 terrain up to the features Lupoglav and somewhere around another feature,

13 that is to say, the region of the Babuljice village at the Zvijezda

14 feature. We did not mount up to the Zvijezda feature because it was

15 rather inaccessible. It was difficult to reach. And during those days,

16 we did not have -- we did not engage in any combat with the enemy forces.

17 There was no fighting nor did we see the enemy at all.

18 Q. Witness DF, we have an order here from your Superior Command dated

19 the 14th of July. I'm not going to place it on the ELMO, but the order

20 says that: "A smaller portion of the enemy forces is still located in the

21 Bokcin Potok-Siljkovici-Mratinjci area."

22 Do you happen to know anything about that, although in your

23 previous answer you said that you did not come across any enemy forces

24 while you were clearing up the terrain.

25 A. Well, during those few days, we could hear, in the region,

Page 8517

1 fighting. We could hear fighting in the region, small-intensity

2 fighting. Therefore, we assumed that the enemy was there, somewhere

3 around.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, I apologise for

5 interrupting, but the order that you mentioned, does it have a number?

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

7 reminding me. The Defence referred to exhibit -- OTP Exhibit 534, first

8 paragraph of the order from the Superior Command of Witness DF. From

9 Witness DF's Superior Command.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Perhaps this would be an

11 opportune moment to take a break, Mr. Petrusic. Yes? You agree?

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I do.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let us take a 20-minute break.

14 The witness will remain where he is for the moment until we leave the

15 courtroom.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.43 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, you may proceed.

19 JUDGE WALD: Excuse me, Mr. Petrusic and the witness.

20 Would you perhaps ask him - I'm just trying to follow the

21 testimony - if they could hear fighting in the region and he assumed that

22 the enemy was around, I'm unclear as to who was fighting against the enemy

23 if it wasn't his battalion. I'd just like to get that point clarified, if

24 I could. Thank you.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] And another thing, Mr. Petrusic;

Page 8518

1 now that we have the map on the ELMO, perhaps the witness could use his

2 pointer to go through the lines and tell us what the lines signify. Thank

3 you.

4 A. This line here, the first line, represents the positions at which

5 I was located until the 12th of July. This dotted green line represents

6 the position I took up with the bulk of my forces on the 12th of July in

7 the afternoon hours.

8 The blue line here represents the line we reached on the 13th of

9 July where I moved my position tactically from this position to that

10 position, the next position; and in the region of the village of Pale, I

11 was able to link up with the 5th Company of the 2nd Battalion.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. And to conclude, the red

13 line was already on the map and has nothing to do with your testimony; is

14 that correct? Am I correct in saying so?

15 A. Yes, yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may.

18 Q. As there are many lines, Witness DF, could you please go back to

19 your own line, the line you occupied at the beginning of 1995. Tell us,

20 please, what those positions were. What trig points did you hold? What

21 were their names, the names of the places or the trig points, please.

22 Could you give us those, and then you can comment and say that it's the

23 blue line -- no, this is the green line. So in 1995, we're dealing with

24 1995, the beginning of 1995, "I was on the following -- at the following

25 positions."

Page 8519

1 A. Inclusive, the Lomanac stream or brook, the Pajici feature, the

2 Gaj feature, Lemesac, Stolice, a little behind this trig point 532

3 Vresinje, or at trig point 555 exclusive. That is to say, below this trig

4 point, there's a dirt road there, and that's where we were.

5 Q. Was that the position you held on the 6th of July as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you explain to us in the same way the positions on the 12th of

8 July, 1995. Could you indicate those, please.

9 A. Let me start off from the other side. Ilina Bara, I had to leave

10 a portion of my forces there, the equivalent of one company, and about two

11 platoons of a second company. And with the 3rd Company and 4th and 5th

12 Companies, I took up this position here, the region from the Vresinje

13 feature via Cizmici up to Bljecevska River.

14 Q. Witness DF, your positions on the 13th of July, please?

15 A. On the 13th of July, I resorted to tactical movement as I was in

16 an unfavourable position should the enemy open fire from the Pale

17 elevation. So I moved for tactical reasons and took up the line from the

18 Vresinje feature to the Pale feature, exclusive, where I linked up with

19 the 2nd Infantry Battalion, as I said earlier on, and their 5th Company.

20 I was there personally and was able to join up these forces, make the

21 link.

22 Q. Witness DF, Judge Wald asked you a question, and could you answer

23 that, please; that is to say, did you hear or were you fighting the enemy

24 or members of the 28th Division, rather, while clearing up the terrain?

25 A. I said that we heard low-intensity fighting approximately in the

Page 8520

1 region of Bokcin Potok, that area. We did not enter into combat at all or

2 have any conflicts or clashes with the enemy side.

3 JUDGE WALD: Can I just still clarify. Then who was doing -- the

4 enemy was fighting who? If it wasn't your battalion, who was it? That's

5 all I want to know.

6 A. Your Honour, I indicated that this was outside my region, my area,

7 so I couldn't see it. I couldn't actually see it nor could I go into

8 action. This was done by units which I did not know. I do not know

9 which.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher now give us OTP

12 Exhibit 539, please, and 538 as well. OTP Exhibit 539 and 538. May we

13 have Exhibit 539 first, please.

14 Q. Witness DF, in this daily combat report from your Superior Command

15 sent to the Command of the Drina Corps, in paragraph 2 states, that is to

16 say, it says that a battalion from your battalion has been set aside.

17 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] May we now have Exhibit 538,

18 please.

19 Q. Pursuant to this order, which your Superior Command dispatched to

20 your unit, your battalion, the whole of your battalion was set aside and

21 pulled out for engagement towards Zepa.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Bearing in mind these two exhibits and the two statements,

24 assertions, made in those two orders, Witness DF, did you and your unit,

25 on the 16th of July, go to the Zepa combat area?

Page 8521

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2

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4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8522

1 A. Not on the 16th. I left on the 17th.

2 Q. Did the whole of your unit, your complete unit, leave?

3 A. Yes, including this intervention platoon which was mentioned

4 earlier on.

5 Q. Witness DF, how do you explain the fact that these two orders were

6 issued on the same day and the difference being that in one order it is

7 stated that the intervention platoon of your unit should be separated and

8 in the second order it is stated that the complete battalion should be

9 dispatched, deployed, to the Zepa region?

10 A. I explained that fact by the following: In the course of those

11 days, events followed each other rapidly, there was a rapid success of

12 events, and that orders had to be changed and issued as the developments

13 evolved, and they had to be adopted to the newly-arisen situation, to the

14 developments. So also this order for me to dispatch the intervention

15 platoon was not executed. This order was not implemented because of the

16 importance of the second task, the second assignment, dispatching me to

17 the general area of Zepa.

18 Q. Witness DF, finally, you mentioned at the beginning of your

19 testimony that you received an order to put up a decisive defence. I

20 think this was on the 6th of July. In that order or in some other

21 documents, did you -- that is to say, did your Superior Command envisage

22 the treatment of any possible prisoners of war? Did it provide for that

23 in the region of your battalion?

24 A. I received that order in writing on the 6th of July, and it was

25 brought to me personally by the Chief of Staff when he came to my area.

Page 8523

1 That order contained the provision that my battalion, as I stressed,

2 should put up a resolute defence; and linked to the question of prisoners

3 of war, it envisaged, provided for, a collection -- a holding area, a

4 collection area at Pribicevac.

5 That means that they did not foresee the fact that on my axis or

6 in the -- my battalion's area, there could have been any prisoners of

7 war. That was not ...

8 Q. Did you in fact have any prisoners of war, sir?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Witness DF, we can note that on the 17th of July you went to

11 engage in combat in the Zepa area. How long did you remain in that area?

12 A. I remained in that area until approximately the 5th or 6th of

13 August. I can't remember the exact date, but it was the beginning of

14 August, sometime -- until sometime at the beginning of August, when I

15 returned.

16 Q. Under whose command was your battalion at Zepa, within the

17 operations at Zepa?

18 A. Under the direct command of my brigade commander, Colonel --

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would hope that

20 that last name will be stricken from the record.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] And that concludes my examination

23 of this witness, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Are you finished, or do you plan

25 to finish?

Page 8524

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] I have finished my

2 examination-in-chief of this witness.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

4 So, is it Mr. McCloskey? Your witness.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could go in

6 closed session briefly for some background questions.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into closed

8 session for a few minutes.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8525

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, you may continue.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. Did you have any knowledge that the Bratunac Brigade was involved

9 in the offensive operations of Krivaja 95?

10 A. I was aware on the basis of the order I received from my brigade

11 commander to the effect that the brigade, with a smaller portion of its

12 forces, should act, should participate in the offensive operations. But I

13 underline that I received that order only on the 6th of July and that

14 before that I had no knowledge of any such assignments.

15 Q. And your assignment in participation of the attack was a resolute

16 defence in your area of responsibility; is that right?

17 A. Yes. Literally, the words were "decisive defence."

18 Q. So in an offensive operation such as Krivaja 95, that can be

19 referred to as a decisive defence in the context of your unit?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we show the witness OTP Exhibit 751, but

22 could we make sure that the ELMO is not going over the public.

23 Q. Now, Witness, you occasionally went to command meetings at the

24 brigade command; is that right? You've got to answer out loud.

25 A. Yes.

Page 8526

1 Q. And if you could look briefly at the exhibit which you should be

2 getting the B/C/S copy of.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could put the English, the first page of

4 the English on the ELMO.

5 Q. And if you could look briefly at that, especially the first part

6 that refers to your battalion.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you recall that particular meeting?

9 A. I don't remember the details of it, but I do remember it, yes.

10 Q. You mention having -- suggesting problems with conscripts in town,

11 and if you could look at the end of the document where Major Nikolic is

12 referenced, that he agrees that conscripts and passes should be

13 controlled, but he says there he thinks something was wrong with the

14 battalion when so many conscripts were reported to the police.

15 Do you remember the discussion or the exchange with Major Nikolic

16 that you had?

17 A. It was a problem that we had from earlier on, but it wasn't

18 dramatic. There weren't that many, but a certain number of military

19 conscripts behaved in an undisciplined manner and would arbitrarily

20 abandon positions, and it was precisely for that reason in the aim of

21 raising discipline to a higher level that I requested that tighter control

22 be imposed on the movement of conscripts in town.

23 Q. Now, the Major Nikolic mentioned in this meeting is this

24 Major Momir Nikolic, head of security and intelligence for the brigade?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8527

1 Q. And did you have a security officer in your unit?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. And what was his or her name?

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, that will

5 identify the witness.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Then we better go into closed session, Your

7 Honour. I apologise.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Let's go into private

9 session then, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 MR. McCLOSKEY:

20 Q. During the time period from July 6th through July 17th when you

21 went to Zepa, what kind of communications did you have outside your unit?

22 A. I had communication with the Superior Command and with subordinate

23 units, mostly with them.

24 Q. So you were able to communicate with the neighbouring battalions

25 in your area.

Page 8528

1 A. Only when that was necessary.

2 Q. Could you communicate with the MUP units?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did your brigade command have the ability to communicate with the

5 MUP units?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. You're in a very difficult position with potential enemy soldiers

8 coming at you from several different sides, if I followed your testimony,

9 and it would have been very important for you to able to communicate with

10 all VRS units in the area, would it not?

11 A. In view of my level of command and the established hierarchy in

12 the army, all requests that do not concern my level go through the

13 Superior Command. I did not have the obligation nor the need to directly

14 communicate with those people.

15 Q. Did you know where the MUP units were located?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You had no idea whatsoever on, let's say, July 12th and July 13th

18 where any MUP units were?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did the local MUP units of Bratunac and Zvornik and Milici, did

21 they form combat companies or squads for potential assistance in combat

22 operations to the army?

23 A. I think they did.

24 Q. You think they did? As an officer in the VRS involved in a war,

25 is that -- do you want a little more time to think about that, to answer

Page 8529

1 that?

2 A. There were such units. I know that because, for example, in the

3 area of Trnovo, I knew that there was one such unit, but this was at the

4 end of 1995. So I assume that, in those days too, that unit was

5 operating. But as regards its structure and anything specific about it is

6 something I don't know because we did not participate together in any

7 combat operation or combat activity.

8 Q. You know Ljubisa Borovcanin, do you not, from Bratunac?

9 A. I do know Ljubisa Borovcanin from the time when he was the chief

10 of the police station in Bratunac.

11 Q. And are you aware of a special combat organisation from the

12 Ministry of Interior referred to as the Special Police as it differed from

13 the municipal police combat organisations?

14 A. I've heard of it. Such units exist to this day.

15 Q. And what was Mr. Borovcanin's position in the Special Police in

16 July of 1995?

17 A. I think he was deputy commander of that brigade. I think from the

18 position of chief of the police station, he was transferred to that

19 position, as far as I am aware.

20 Q. And what were the Special Police doing, the Special Police under

21 Borovcanin doing on July 12th, July 13th, July 14th, 1995, near your area

22 of responsibility?

23 A. First of all, my battalion does not have an area of

24 responsibility.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic.

Page 8530

1 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence would

2 like to object because we feel that the Prosecutor should first ask the

3 witness whether he knows whether that unit was located in his area of

4 responsibility on those days and only then go on to ask his next

5 question.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. McCloskey, I think you

7 will have no problem in following the suggestion of Mr. Petrusic.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think that was implicit in the question, but I

9 can certainly make that --

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but it is, in a sense,

11 leading. But in any event, I think there is no problem in asking, first,

12 the witness whether he knew and then go on to your next question. So

13 please proceed.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY:

15 Q. Do you know where the Special Police was on July 12th, 13th, or

16 14th, 1995?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever learn where they were during those time periods?

19 A. Nothing specific, but from media reports and subsequent

20 information. But in those days, no.

21 Q. So you have no idea whatsoever that the MUP Special Police were

22 along the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, just north of your

23 position, during those time periods?

24 A. I am convinced that they were not at all in my region, in my area,

25 my defence area. And also when you mention north of that area, I really

Page 8531

1

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5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8532

1 don't know that, nor was it my duty to know that, nor did anyone from the

2 superior command tell me anything like that.

3 Q. Who would have been responsible for blocking enemy units

4 infiltrating from the area of Lomanac brook into the rear of your area on

5 July 11th, 12th, 13th?

6 A. Specifically related to that area, battle would be fought with

7 them by units in the immediate vicinity. And in the event of a

8 larger-scale blockade, if that sabotage group were to escape us and we

9 would not get into direct contact with it, I would have to seek assistance

10 from the superior command, and then the brigade commander would decide as

11 to who would participate in blocking that sabotage group.

12 Q. You've stated that the area of the Lomanac brook was a common area

13 for infiltration. Can you tell us what unit would have protected your

14 rear on July 12th from coming into that area, or are you suggesting that

15 after they came in and attacked, then you would call for someone to

16 protect your rear?

17 A. If we were to identify an enemy sabotage group, then we would

18 intervene in the way I have just described.

19 Q. So there was no unit that you're aware of that was protecting your

20 rear from the area of Lomanac brook?

21 A. Not that I know of. And anyway, in the area, there was an

22 unidentified minefield, and this Lomanac brook during the daytime could be

23 relatively successfully controlled by fire.

24 Q. So you know the area?

25 A. I do.

Page 8533

1 Q. Now, referring you back to Exhibit 751, I noticed there's the --

2 another person from another battalion requests an anti-aircraft machine

3 gun. Can you tell us -- I note the Bratunac Brigade is a small unit. Can

4 you tell us how many anti-aircraft machine guns you had at the time in

5 July of 1995?

6 A. You mean my battalion?

7 Q. Well, in the whole --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY:

10 Q. In your whole brigade, and whether or not if your battalion had

11 one also.

12 A. I did, but there were a couple, maybe four or five in the

13 battalion. And I really don't know about the others.

14 Q. How many did you have that were actually on wheeled vehicles?

15 A. I didn't have any machine gun on a wheeled vehicle.

16 Q. How many anti-aircraft guns were there on wheeled vehicles in the

17 Bratunac Brigade?

18 A. I'm afraid I don't know that either, because I am not aware of the

19 numbers for the whole brigade. And I wouldn't say that there were any on

20 vehicles, any such anti-aircraft gun on wheeled vehicles.

21 Q. Now, going to the Exhibit 778. I don't know if we need to bring

22 it up or not, but you request a certain number of items. In item number

23 four, it's referred to - well, in the English - as petrol for a

24 self-propelled item of some sort, the word "samohotka." What is that?

25 A. Yes. It is a samohotka of 76 millimetres of American make, a

Page 8534

1 very, very old piece of equipment which used oil as fuel or petrol.

2 Q. And did this have tyres on it?

3 A. No, no, it had tracks. It had very low capacity, a very small

4 tank for fuel, but it consumed about 300 to 400 litres per 100 kilometres.

5 In those days, we were short of fuel, we had a big shortage, so that it

6 was never -- its tank was never filled to capacity.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, if we could go to Exhibit 782/A and also

8 continue not to have that exhibited on the ELMO.

9 Q. This is a daily combat report from your command, and it states the

10 Chief of Staff is in the particular area of responsibility. What was the

11 Chief of Staff doing there on the 9th in that area of responsibility?

12 A. The Chief of Staff assisted me in my work.

13 Q. Did you have any artillery pieces in your area, either belonging

14 to your unit or to the brigade or to the corps?

15 A. If you consider mortars as an artillery piece, I did have them.

16 Q. Aside from mortars, were there anything heavier than mortars in

17 your area?

18 A. I had this Samohotka, this self-propelled gun. And I don't know

19 which calibre you consider a heavier weapon to be, from which calibre on.

20 Q. What was the Chief of Staff, in particular, helping you with?

21 A. In organising the system of fire, in viewing the situation on the

22 ground and, should a problem arise, we would deal with it together.

23 Q. Now, could you look -- as a military person, you're aware of

24 different kinds of weapons and ammunition, are you not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8535

1 Q. And if you could look under paragraph 6 of this Exhibit 782/A, and

2 we go down perhaps a little bit beyond halfway through the list and there

3 is something listed as "Bullets, 20/3 700 pieces." What kind of

4 ammunition is that and what is it used for?

5 A. It is ammunition for an anti-aircraft gun.

6 Q. And the "20" stands for the millimetres? That's the size of the

7 ammunition?

8 A. Yes. Yes, 20 millimetres, yes. And "3" stands for three barrels.

9 Q. And so a little bit farther down the line, we have "Bullets, 30/2

10 200 pieces." That is 30-millimetre two-barrelled anti-aircraft gun

11 ammunition?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Can anything besides an anti-aircraft gun fire this ammunition

14 that was in the possession of your brigade?

15 A. I think that some kind of improvised weapons were made that can

16 use such bullets. Grenade launchers. I don't know specifically for this

17 ammunition, but these were indeed used mostly for the guns. I assume

18 that.

19 Q. This kind of ammunition cannot be used for a grenade launcher, can

20 it?

21 A. For a weapon? For an infantry weapon you mean? These are

22 anti-aircraft weapons and ammunitions.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we now go to Exhibit 752.

25 Q. Witness DF, this is -- you'll have a chance to take a look at it.

Page 8536

1 These are notes from the command meeting, and there is a note at the

2 bottom of it for 5 July, and the -- notes that the Chief of Staff will go

3 to the particular battalion to increase the accuracy in a direction of

4 artillery fire.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Was the chief actually assisting you in the direction of the

7 artillery fire?

8 A. I have already said that the Chief of Staff assisted in the

9 organisation of what we call the system of fire, which includes this more

10 specific reference.

11 Q. So did you have weapons that were capable of artillery fire?

12 A. Which calibre are you interested in?

13 Q. Any calibre of artillery fire.

14 A. I had mortars, as I have said; one mortar of 60 millimetres,

15 several 82-millimetre mortars, and I think a couple of 120 millimetres.

16 That is all that can be placed under the heading of "Pieces." These are

17 mostly in infantry units, and they are considered battalion fire groups,

18 and they are of lesser range. Also, I was very short of ammunition of

19 these calibres, extremely short of them.

20 Q. So under your definition, a mortar could be considered an

21 artillery weapon?

22 A. No. I wouldn't say that that was an artillery weapon because,

23 according to current provisions for establishment, a mortar, especially an

24 82-millimetre mortar, is manned by soldiers with infantry speciality, what

25 we called VES, V-E-S.

Page 8537

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go now to Exhibit 753,

2 and -- but if we could just have that ready.

3 Q. Prior to getting that document, could we -- can you tell me where

4 the area of Gornji Potocari is?

5 A. If you give me a map, I can show it to you.

6 Q. Can you just describe it? We know where the Potocari compound

7 was, and could you first describe it, and we'll have a map also.

8 A. I can. That is where Naser Oric's house is situated, so that is

9 how I know where it is.

10 Q. Where is it in relation to the Potocari former Dutch compound that

11 we know about?

12 A. It is -- when you go along the road to Srebrenica, I think you

13 take a turn next to the school at Potocari and then you reach Gornji

14 Potocari.

15 Q. About how many kilometres is it from the DutchBat compound?

16 A. Approximately 4 or 5 kilometres.

17 Q. Is that in the direction of Vlasenica, or basically west?

18 A. Yes, more or less west -- no. I really don't know. I can't tell

19 you now, but I can show you on the map. Vlasenica is quite distant, a

20 distance away from Potocari.

21 Q. Now, if you could take a look at this Exhibit 753/A in the B/C/S,

22 and if we could put the regular exhibit on the ELMO.

23 This is a document that has as a heading, From the Command of the

24 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, dated 12 July, to the Drina Corps

25 Command, attention Major Golic.

Page 8538

1 Now, you know that Major Golic was an intelligence officer in the

2 Drina Corps command on that date, do you not?

3 A. I don't know. I had no dealings whatsoever with intelligence

4 officers of higher level commands, so I don't know.

5 Q. And this is authored by a Captain Pecanac, and did you have any

6 knowledge that Captain Pecanac was a Main Staff security officer, working

7 under Ljubo Beara?

8 A. As I was saying, I had no contact with Captain Pecanac or Major

9 Golic or any other people from the superior command, from the intelligence

10 or security sections, so I really cannot tell you whether that is that

11 particular man. I don't know what positions he held. I really don't know

12 what they were doing or what they engaged in.

13 Q. Do you know a Captain Pecanac?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you receive any intelligence reports about the Muslim column

16 on the 12th of July from any source?

17 A. I don't remember explicitly, but it is possible that we were

18 warned to -- in order to be alert and to avoid any surprises.

19 Q. But you didn't see -- you didn't capture one Muslim prisoner

20 throughout this entire time period; is that correct?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. Did you see the column at any time?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness Exhibit 809 bis. It's

25 the blowup.

Page 8539

1 Q. And this will be a map, and if you could take the pointer. Now, I

2 know you've already marked -- hopefully the -- this can be put on the ELMO

3 so Defence can see it. And the markings on it in red are only on this

4 exhibit, but since you've already marked on a map some locations, I would

5 just ask you to point to the area where your unit was during the July

6 10th, 12th, time period.

7 THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we can't hear the witness.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: The witness is going -- I'm sorry, he's going to

9 need the microphone, so we may need another usher, so ...

10 A. Let me repeat. The Lomanac brook inclusive, the Pajici feature.

11 This is the Gaj feature which can be seen on the map here. It's rather --

12 the ratio is 1:25.000. Lemesac is next, then we have the Vresinje feature

13 a little behind the trig point here, moving towards the Ilina Bara feature

14 and trig point 555. I said this exclusive. Below this road here, that's

15 where my soldiers were.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. All right. And this is a map that was confiscated from the

18 Zvornik Brigade that was put together by the members of the Zvornik

19 Brigade. And noting the large circle with the arrow attached to it, that

20 is designed to represent the Muslim column that assembled there on the

21 11th of July and left in that area.

22 From your position as you have just described, could you see

23 members of the Muslim column fleeing in the direction of that arrow?

24 A. I could see parts of the column withdrawing from the positions

25 around here somewhere, the Pajici feature, and from the Vresinje feature

Page 8540

1 moving towards Jaglici.

2 Q. Did you fire upon that column with your mortars and your other

3 weapons?

4 A. As you can see, that is outside the range of the kind of weaponry

5 that I had, so I did not open fire, no. I did not open fire on them.

6 Q. Did you feel that column was a threat to you?

7 A. I did not consider it to be a threat to me, so I did not act.

8 Q. Why didn't you think it was a threat?

9 A. Because it wasn't jeopardising my own combat positions.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, may the witness

11 be seated again?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's a good idea, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, that would make it more

14 comfortable for him and for the usher as well.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I tried to have a setup, but with the protection,

16 they weren't allowed to fit in the easel.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Mr. McCloskey, if I can make a

18 suggestion. If the witness stays seated and the usher holds the map and

19 makes the pointer longer, then it could be shown on the video.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I think for now we can go on to another

21 area.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Okay.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could show the witness exhibit number 95.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, perhaps we could

25 take a break at this point. I have just been informed that General Krstic

Page 8541

1 is in need of a break. So let us have our 50-minute break; that is to

2 say, we shall reconvene at around 1.00

3 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Could we show the witness Exhibit 95. And that can be placed on

8 the ELMO.

9 Q. Now, Witness, this is a rather unique-looking artillery piece.

10 This is a two-barrelled 30-millimetre artillery gun; is that right?

11 A. Yes, known as Praga. As far as I can see, this is 30/2.

12 Q. And do you recognise this particular vehicle?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And what -- can you read what's been said on the side of it?

15 A. "Lok" something. I don't know.

16 Q. That's not a relatively infamous vehicle in the area?

17 A. I didn't understand the question. What did you say? Which was --

18 Q. Have you ever read about this particular vehicle in any

19 literature, magazines, papers, anything like that?

20 A. Not for this particular vehicle, but I do know what a Praga is as

21 a means of anti-air defence.

22 Q. Now, what particular village was your headquarters in prior to the

23 Krivaja 95 operation?

24 A. In concrete terms, in the village of Magasici.

25 Q. Was it particularly in the village of Bozici or in that area?

Page 8542

1 A. Well, Bozici, we're a little above that part.

2 Q. Okay. Well, we'll get to a map that will help us with that.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can show the witness Exhibit 757.

4 Q. As we're getting there, did you receive any information at that

5 time, any time, that the VRS killed thousands of Muslim prisoners from the

6 Srebrenica enclave?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you ever heard of any information that's credible from

9 Serbian sources that thousands of Muslims were killed between July 13th

10 and July 19th, 1995?

11 A. Only after the war in the information media, the mass media, did

12 these cases begin to be talked about, and it was only then that I could

13 have heard or learnt something more about that.

14 Q. So you heard not one word from any VRS source at all about what

15 occurred between the 13th of July, 1995 and the 19th of July, 1995?

16 A. No. No.

17 Q. Did you ever hear that thousands of Muslim prisoners were taken

18 along the Bratunac-Milici road in the areas of Konjevic Polje-Nova

19 Kasaba-Kravica?

20 A. As I say, only after the war, from the information media, but that

21 I saw anything or knew anything, I did not.

22 Q. Now, if you could look at this map and take a pen and if you could

23 mark in a small circle, if you could, the area where your headquarters

24 was.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 8543

1 Q. All right. And how -- after July 12th, did your headquarters

2 remain in that position?

3 A. No. As I said earlier on, together with me -- that is to say,

4 first of all, the forward command post, on the 6th of July, was

5 established, and after the 12th, the officers, the superior officers of my

6 battalion went, and then the command post was where I was, which means in

7 the area of the Cizmici village.

8 Q. So when did your headquarters actually move from the particular

9 spot you've marked?

10 A. Well, most of the command at the 6th was already at the forward

11 command post, but together with me on the 12th there were my officers

12 too. We went, the command post and everything else that that implies.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we hold up just very briefly this large

14 Exhibit 809 bis again.

15 Q. Now, we've discussed the order that you received on the 14th to

16 search the area, and is it not correct that the northernmost boundary of

17 the area you searched was between the points of 1 and 5 on the map, I

18 think 5 being the area of Lomanac brook and 1 being the area of Jezestica

19 road junction?

20 A. That's this region here. This is the brook towards the village of

21 Pale, and then we have this part here towards the Lupoglav feature.

22 Pale-Lupoglav, that is the axis. But I did not return, I kept going

23 forward. I did not have the obligation to see what was happening behind

24 me or going back.

25 Q. So your area of search was that V-shaped area between the numbers

Page 8544

1 that have been marked 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, 6?

2 A. Well, that's roughly so, yes.

3 Q. And the northernmost boundary of your search area was the

4 Bratunac-Milici road?

5 A. I had nothing to do with that road. I went off from the lines

6 attained. What you're saying now is this here. It's a zone, an area,

7 that is to say, a direction, an axis in which I would move.

8 Now, for that axis to be denoted, you have to denote it for

9 several points, and I had absolutely no goings back. There was no logic

10 in going back and, therefore, relinquishing my positions to the enemy.

11 JUDGE RIAD: Witness, could you please speak a little bit softer.

12 We can't hear the interpretation here. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I have this deep,

14 strong voice, and I am accustomed, as I said, to speaking loudly. Pity

15 I'm not an opera singer.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. Now, the area between point 1, Jezestica road, and point 5, the

18 Lomanac brook, if you draw -- can you just take a pointer and draw a line

19 between the two, just an imaginary line?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Now, that area between the imaginary line between point 1 and

22 point 6 north to the roadway, was that searched by your battalion?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So when you received your orders to search to the right of

25 Jezestica road over to Lomanac brook, you did not go up at all to that

Page 8545

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Page 8546

1 roadway; that was an area left completely unreconned?

2 A. Let me try again. Let me repeat this. I did not have any need or

3 obligation to go back, to go backwards and to search something that is to

4 the back of me, my rear; nor was I supposed to do that, because that would

5 have left me open to allowing the enemy to take over the positions I had

6 already gained control of.

7 So it is from the lines attained, reached, that we went forwards,

8 not backwards. Never backwards, just forwards. And that is standard

9 practice, that's what you're supposed to do.

10 Q. So have you seen the video of the soldiers all along that road in

11 that area with their guns pointing up towards the direction where you

12 would have been?

13 A. I don't remember. I don't think so. If you have them, perhaps I

14 can take a look.

15 Q. So you weren't concerned that there may be Muslims in that large

16 area that you were -- between you and the road that was not being

17 searched?

18 A. During those days, many moved along that road, a lot of things

19 were going along that road, both the refugees, Muslims that were being

20 transported from the Potocari region. So there was a lot of coming and

21 going, a passage of people, movement of people, and so I did not consider

22 it to be necessary to do anything.

23 Q. So you did receive --

24 A. Nor did I receive any orders to do anything.

25 Q. But you did receive information that people were going along that

Page 8547

1 roadway?

2 A. Not in that way. I assumed that that was being done. Not that

3 somebody directly informed me how much, what, for what reason, and so on.

4 Q. Did you or any of your recon units or any of your men have the

5 possibility to see that road on July 13th or 14th to see what was going on

6 on that road on those days?

7 A. Well, from these positions, they could just observe movement.

8 They could just observe movement, the means that were passing along that

9 way, but nobody informed me about any activities which would influence the

10 establishment of a defence system, and, therefore, it was not the subject

11 of my interests. I did not focus on that.

12 Q. So you did have information from your soldiers who could see from

13 the heights down on top of that road.

14 A. Yes, they could see, but they did not inform me of any specifics

15 with respect to that, and they were at a great distance. They were very

16 far off, approximately 3 kilometres as the crow flies. That's where they

17 were.

18 Q. Did they inform you that units along that road were firing heavy

19 weapons up in the direction of where they would have been watching from,

20 all along the road from Konjevic Polje down to Bratunac?

21 A. No. No.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 758.

23 Q. Now, Witness DF, you'll recognise -- this is a blow-up of one of

24 the previous maps, and this is a NATO map. This is not the VRS map.

25 A. Yes.

Page 8548

1 Q. Could you again mark on this blow-up, so we get a little better

2 idea, where your headquarters was?

3 A. I can't do that on this map because it's not in the framework of

4 the map, as far as I can see. I can show you on the other map.

5 Q. All right. Do you recognise the general area on this particular

6 map?

7 A. I recognise it.

8 Q. Now, I'm calling your attention to the two dots in that particular

9 area. Did you notice any -- any particular activity going on there

10 between July 12th and November 1st, 1995?

11 A. I did not notice any activity in the area nor did anybody inform

12 me of it.

13 Q. Would it surprise you to learn that those are mass graves, it's

14 the submission of the Prosecution, that were dug between 13 July and

15 17 July 1995, and contained thousands of bodies?

16 A. It would not surprise me because I was -- I learnt about that fact

17 at a meeting with you last year.

18 Q. Prior to our meeting, had you heard anything about it?

19 A. Only from the media.

20 Q. A huge mass grave in your backyard and you never heard anything

21 about it from any other source but the media; is that right?

22 A. It was far from my eyes, far, far from my eyes. I wouldn't say it

23 was close by.

24 Q. Did you ever hear any discussion of the digging of those mass

25 graves and how those bodies got there from anyone prior to our meeting?

Page 8549

1 A. No. No.

2 Q. Did you speak to Major Golic - excuse me - Major Nikolic about

3 what was going on there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. If bodies were being buried there, would that be a reference to

6 the Serbian word "asanacija" if they were related to killed prisoners or

7 soldiers?

8 A. The notion of asanacija is a broad concept. It could have been

9 about that. Asanacija is carried out or implemented regardless of the

10 status of the dead bodies. When you say "asanacija," it can apply to

11 cattle, to animals as well, because asanacija is an action that is

12 undertaken in order to prevent diseases from spreading.

13 Q. Did you ever hear any information that in October of 1995, those

14 hundreds and hundreds of bodies were dug up over a period of days and

15 moved down south of the Srebrenica enclave, former enclave?

16 A. No, I didn't hear anything about that.

17 Q. Were you ever at a meeting where this was discussed?

18 A. I was at meetings where this could have been discussed only

19 superficially, but nothing specific at all.

20 Q. A superficial discussion of moving hundreds and hundreds of dead

21 bodies is a discussion of that subject, so if you could tell me when you

22 heard a superficial discussion of that subject, I'd appreciate it.

23 A. At one of the meetings, mention was made, I don't know exactly

24 when this was, I think October, that asanacija was being carried out, but

25 no details were given when, how, why, under which circumstances, and so

Page 8550

1 on.

2 Q. Now asanacija, is that something that is generally carried out in

3 the middle of combat?

4 A. It can be done in the middle of combat, and it can also be done

5 after combat, depending on how long the combat goes on for.

6 Q. Ever hear of anybody burying troops while they're being shot at by

7 the enemy, burying bodies while they're being shot at in combat?

8 A. Not really. I haven't heard that.

9 Q. Now, if we could go to exhibit number 712/A, and if you could take

10 a moment to look at that. That's another group of minutes from the

11 meeting, this time 16 October 1995.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we don't want this to be on the public ELMO,

13 but if we could have it on the ELMO, I'd appreciate it, as long as it's

14 not going public.

15 Q. All right, Witness. Now, you'll note that you were present by

16 this record at this 16 October meeting; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that at that meeting, there was a discussion, and I'll

19 quote, "We are currently engaged in tasks issued by the army of Republika

20 Srpska, General Staff, sanitation," in parentheses, the word in Serbian,

21 "asanacija."

22 Do you recall that meeting?

23 A. Barely, yes, I do.

24 Q. And this comes under the heading of "Nikolic." That's the same

25 Major Momir Nikolic --

Page 8551

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- the chief of security for the brigade?

3 A. It should be the same one, yes. It should be him.

4 Q. Now, I note here that this says that the task was issued by the

5 General Staff or the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. Does

6 that help you refresh your recollection as to this particular asanacija

7 job?

8 A. I really don't know how significant it was because I had

9 absolutely nothing to do with that assignment; nor did I know what they

10 were referring to, who was tasked to do that, using which means; nor did I

11 provide any kind of assistance, so it was not my obligation to know what

12 it was about. And I'm quite convinced that, at that meeting, no details

13 were given, any details, and you can check by asking these other persons

14 who are listed as being present.

15 Q. As an officer in the army of Republika Srpska, is it not your duty

16 when you are made aware of war crimes, to report those war crimes to your

17 superior?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. It's not your duty to close your ears at a meeting or ignore

20 things that you don't want to hear; that's not the duty of a VRS soldier,

21 is it?

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic?

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence objects

24 to this question. My learned friend can rephrase it and ask him whether

25 war crimes were discussed at meetings that the witness attended.

Page 8552

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Page 8553

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I was merely responding to his

3 response saying he didn't want to hear about it, but it's not an important

4 issue. I think we can go on to others.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now could we have Exhibit 161/4.

7 A. May I just comment on what Mr. McCloskey just said, because in a

8 way he said that I didn't want to hear. I had nothing to hear there

9 because I assert with responsibility that no details were given connected

10 to that asanacija. And the concept of asanacija, as I have said, is

11 nothing unlawful. It's an obligatory procedure that has to be engaged

12 in.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, perhaps we have to

14 clear up this point now. What was the subject of discussion at the

15 meeting?

16 A. As meetings were very brief, each person -- me, for instance, as

17 battalion commander, would be given five minutes to report on the

18 situation in my battalion. So that at those meetings, no details were

19 entered into except if the commander had some queries about something

20 important. If details had been discussed, then they probably would have

21 been part of this document, would have been referred to in these minutes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Do you remember the expressions

23 used, what was said in connection with asanacija?

24 A. I just remember the term "asanacija" being used.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, the circumstances, the

Page 8554

1 places, the dates. Just the word was mentioned? Is that all?

2 A. Yes, very briefly. It says as it says here in the minutes. "We

3 are now working under orders of the General Staff on asanacija," no

4 further details. And I think that that was the method of work applied at

5 such briefings. If somebody needed to brief the commander about details,

6 he would have the time and place to do so after the meeting, to go to his

7 office and discuss things with him in detail.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see. So no one at that

9 meeting, when the word "asanacija" was used, nobody asked for any

10 clarifications?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] In other words, everyone

13 understood what was behind it, what it referred to?

14 A. Not what was being concealed. We didn't know that anything was

15 being concealed. We just knew that asanacija was being done. Now, what

16 that term was implied, Major Nikolic should know, and if my commander had

17 an interest, he probably asked him. But as I see here that the Main Staff

18 ordered this, then I believe that even my commander need not have been

19 informed, not to mention us lower-level officers.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Continue, Mr. McCloskey,

21 please.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. Witness, I would direct your attention to Exhibit 161/4 of a split

24 aerial photo, and I'll direct your attention to the right side. This is

25 dated 20 October, and this is in the area of the yellow dots from the

Page 8555

1 previous map exhibit, and it shows an excavator digging on 20 October.

2 The Prosecution has excavated that area and exhumed it and found

3 many, many bodies. This is 20 October, four days after the meeting

4 discussing asanacija. Does the term "asanacija" involve clearing the

5 terrain of bodies like as depicted in this photograph?

6 A. I don't know what was implied, but in that period of time, my

7 battalion and myself was focusing on the organisation of shift duty in the

8 area of Trnovo so that I had absolutely no knowledge linked to this.

9 Q. Now, did you have any knowledge about prisoners taken by the VRS

10 between the time period of July 12th and November 1?

11 A. Nothing specific. I didn't know anything in particular about

12 those prisoners because I didn't have any. All I can talk about is the

13 things that I eyewitnessed.

14 Q. We could also talk about what was discussed at this very same

15 meeting, because if we go back to the exhibit of the meeting of October

16 13th, Mr. Nikolic also discusses that there are still remaining so-called

17 Turks in the area and that they've taken statements from them and that,

18 "We have seven." So were you listening to the discussion about prisoners

19 taken between the time period I just asked about when Mr. Nikolic was

20 discussing it?

21 A. There was no discussion about the prisoners, except that the fact

22 was stated that they were being held as prisoners somewhere by our forces.

23 Q. The Bratunac Brigade was in fact getting prisoners all the way

24 through the period of 12 July up until at least this period noted in this

25 document, weren't they?

Page 8556

1 A. I do not know about that. I didn't take any prisoners. Whether

2 the others did or not, I don't know.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go into closed session briefly,

4 Mr. President?

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into private

6 session. Not yet.

7 [Private session]

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8557

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: 799, please.

8 Q. Now, you mentioned that the brigade had a military police unit; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Who is the chief of that military police unit in July 1995?

12 A. I think it was Dragisa Jovanovic.

13 Q. And what was his rank?

14 A. I think he was a Lieutenant.

15 Q. Was he a colleague, colleague of yours that you communicated with?

16 A. Not frequently. If I came across him, we would exchange

17 greetings, jokes, but nothing in particular.

18 Q. Did you discuss with any members of the military police what they

19 were involved in, in Pilica in July 16th, 1995?

20 A. I have no idea where they were nor what they did nor was it my

21 duty to know what the military police were doing.

22 Q. If the military police from Bratunac transported prisoners to the

23 Zvornik area brigade of responsibility and thereby assisted in the

24 execution of prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility, what

25 commander would be responsible for those crimes?

Page 8559

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, why don't you ask

2 who was the commander instead of saying which commander was responsible

3 for these crimes because we're making judicial conclusions there. Perhaps

4 you should just ask Who was the Commander of the police, or Who was

5 responsible for the police, but not [In English] "What commander would be

6 responsible for those crimes?" [Interpretation] I think that is passing

7 judgement.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can rephrase that, Your Honour, so it's not

9 meant to pass judgement. What I was trying to get to is a hypothetical

10 that would show us military responsibility and not any particular names of

11 any individuals but just, in a situation where jurisdictions change, which

12 jurisdiction becomes responsible for their soldiers in another

13 jurisdiction that commit crimes, in this officer's opinion.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Then ask who was

15 responsible for the soldiers, not for the crimes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. Well, can you answer the question who was responsible for the

18 soldiers in the situation that I've posed to you?

19 A. Specifically regarding the situation you have described to me, I

20 don't know who could have been responsible. I assume that for activities

21 carried out by subordinates, then the leader of that unit should be

22 responsible.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I have no further questions of this

24 witness.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

Page 8560

1 Mr. McCloskey.

2 Mr. Petrusic.

3 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

4 further questions of this witness.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

6 much. Judge Fouad Riad? No questions.

7 Madam Judge Wald.

8 JUDGE WALD: Just a very few.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE WALD: Witness, you mentioned at one point that you had an

11 opportunity at some point to see parts of the column that was moving

12 towards Tuzla. My question is simply: Did you know at that time -- it's

13 referred to in several of the Bratunac Brigade command reports that there

14 is this column attempting a breakthrough at particular points. Were you

15 aware that the column consisted of -- basically two-thirds of it were

16 civilians from Srebrenica or, in other words, not full-time soldiers but

17 people who were fleeing from Srebrenica? I mean, was that well known in

18 the area? Because it keeps being referred to as a breakthrough of the

19 28th. In fact, that was at the head, obviously, a third of it were

20 members of the 28th Division, but two-thirds of it were people fleeing

21 from Srebrenica, some armed lightly, some not armed at all. Was that well

22 known?

23 A. No, not at all. From our positions, we couldn't distinguish

24 whether somebody was armed or whether someone was a civilian or not. And

25 I can tell you that it was the practice in our brigade, and I assume also

Page 8561

1 in the 28th Division, that all men were not in uniform because there was a

2 shortage of uniforms. So there may be some confusion as to whether they

3 were civilians or soldiers if you go by whether they wore uniforms or

4 not.

5 JUDGE WALD: So basically -- I know you had no combat contact with

6 them, but basically in terms of knowing that they existed and were moving

7 in a particular direction, they were regarded across the board as the

8 28th Division, right, as the enemy armed forces of the 28th Division; is

9 that right? That's the way they were thought of in terms of the Brigade

10 Command reports or whatever you heard?

11 A. Now that so much time has gone by, my conclusion would be that the

12 civilians who were safely evacuated from Potocari, they simply had no need

13 to go with the column which it was assumed could encounter our forces and

14 clash with them. So I would not assume that any civilians would move with

15 that column, and especially not in such a high percentage as you have

16 mentioned.

17 JUDGE WALD: Okay. My other question is: With regard to the

18 report of the minutes of -- I believe it was the October 16th meeting in

19 which it's said that one of the parts of the brigade were carrying out

20 assignments and asanacija with regard to orders from the Main Staff. My

21 question is whether or not in your military experience it was usual or

22 unusual for the Main Staff, rather than the battalion or the brigade, to

23 be directing asanacija - however it's pronounced - of the particular

24 battleground area in which a battalion or a brigade might have

25 responsibility. Did the security part of the Main Staff generally take

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Page 8563

1 over that function or was that a function that was more likely to be left

2 to the local battalions and brigades?

3 A. I am not aware of such cases of asanacija of the battleground, so

4 I cannot tell you what the practice was. I really don't know whether it

5 is customary, and I, generally speaking, don't know much about the concept

6 of asanacija because I was trained in a different area.

7 JUDGE WALD: In this particular instance, however, although the

8 main -- I gather from the report that although the Main Staff was giving

9 direction to the operation, actually, soldiers from parts of the Bratunac

10 Brigade were being used to do it, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't have been

11 in the report. It was the soldiers from not your part but from other

12 parts of the Bratunac Brigade that were doing the work in asanacija under

13 the direction of the Main Staff. Is that the right interpretation of the

14 report?

15 A. I really don't know. As I have said, I cannot comment on that

16 because I don't have any proper information. I don't know any details. I

17 don't know who was doing it, following whose orders. I see from this

18 record that it was the orders of the Main Staff, but who actually

19 participated, how, using which devices, with what aim, I really don't

20 know.

21 JUDGE WALD: Okay, thank you.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President, I do have a brief

24 statement from the witness in his interview that would be directly

25 relevant to Judge Wald's -- one of Judge Wald's questions, and so I would

Page 8564

1 request leave of the Trial Chamber to just ask him about that one point.

2 It would -- in that way we wouldn't have to bring him back on rebuttal or

3 anything like that.

4 JUDGE WALD: I don't know what you're talking about.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic.

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Is the Prosecutor referring to the

7 statement made by the witness in Banja Luka in December last year?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I am, and it's on the subject of the makeup

9 of the column.

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence has asked to obtain

11 that statement. As we now have a witness testifying about his own

12 statement, something will be shown to him from that statement, and I think

13 that also would be in accordance with the ruling of the Chamber when other

14 witnesses were testifying, the Defence would request to obtain that

15 statement.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Has the Defence had an

17 opportunity to examine that statement?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. We are in the situation we

19 have been with other statements that witnesses have given to us that have

20 testified. But this has to do with his statement of this witness to us.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] If I understand correctly,

22 Mr. McCloskey is telling us that -- you know that the witness has

23 information which can respond to a question put by Judge Wald to the

24 witness; am I correct?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

Page 8565

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I shall confer with my

2 colleagues.

3 JUDGE WALD: Can I just clarify something?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE WALD: Obviously I can't ask a question about a statement

6 I've never seen, and apparently Mr. Petrusic can't ask a question about a

7 statement he has never seen. You didn't cover this in your direct, so the

8 most -- let me make an attempt just to ask, if I might, with the

9 President's permission, just to ask the witness if he remembers saying

10 anything previously in a previous statement about the makeup of the

11 column, and then I think we should let it go at that, if that's

12 satisfactory to you.

13 A. I didn't say anything in particular. I don't think that it

14 differs in any sense from what I have just said. As far as I am

15 concerned, he can refer to that statement.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Let me address the parties. As

17 you know, the principles that reign over the debate is fairness, and it is

18 true that it is the truth that interests the Chamber. So the Chamber can

19 call a witness, and there would be no sense in the Chamber, having learnt

20 that there is something that may be important, should call the witness to

21 come.

22 What I think would be practical and would be fully in observance

23 of the fairness of the proceedings is perhaps to say to the Prosecutor you

24 can put your question, and the Defence has the possibility to respond, to

25 cross-examine, in a sense, on that point, and the Judges may, too, so that

Page 8566

1 we will resume the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination.

2 Perhaps we should begin with the Defence because it is a Defence

3 witness that we have, but the Defence doesn't have the statement.

4 So that would be my suggestion, to resume the discussion with the

5 opportunity to cross-examine. I mean, fairness is of the utmost concern,

6 and if we bear that in mind, we will be making a step towards establishing

7 the truth.

8 What would be your response, Mr. Petrusic, to my suggestion?

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will be coming

10 back again to the disputed issue. Putting aside the fact that the

11 Prosecution has completed his examination-in-chief, that Your Honours have

12 started the questions, so leaving that aside, we will again come up

13 against the disputed issue, which is that the Prosecutor will show the

14 witness a statement. The Defence has neither had that statement nor --

15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting you.

16 I am really sorry, but my suggestion would also mean that the Prosecutor

17 puts the question. But without using the statement. So "I have heard" or

18 "I have been informed," or something like that. He doesn't need to show

19 the witness the statement. We forget that there is a statement; he just

20 puts a question to the witness, and then the witness can be cross-examined

21 on that particular question. Would you agree with what?

22 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, what do you think

24 of that suggestion?

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can certainly give it a try. I understand I can

Page 8567

1 base my question on what is in the -- in my possession but not read it,

2 not quote it but paraphrase it in some manner to see the witness' response

3 or just the very subject matter.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. I'll give the floor to

5 Judge Wald. The question is that you cannot confront the witness with a

6 statement. You cannot say, "You said this and now you're saying something

7 else." You just accept the answer of the witness and then the Defence can

8 cross-examine him.

9 JUDGE WALD: I'm sure you're familiar with it. I think, Mr.

10 McCloskey, you say, "Did you, on a previous occasion, say, blah, blah,

11 blah, blah, blah?" He may say no or give any explanation he wants and we

12 have to let it go at that. And it doesn't get accepted into evidence, the

13 statement, you're just asking him whether on a previous occasion he said

14 something.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour, I understand that, but I want to

16 be careful. So I may say, "Did, on another occasion, did you say," and

17 then say what I believe he said.

18 JUDGE WALD: If it doesn't go on forever. I mean, if it's very

19 brief.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's very brief.

21 JUDGE WALD: Very brief. Okay.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's very brief.

23 Thank you, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The parties agree that we

25 proceed in this way: The Prosecutor puts a question to the witness and

Page 8568

1 then the Defence can cross-examine the witness on the same point. In this

2 way, the principle of fairness and adversarial system will be respected

3 and there will be no prejudice to anyone.

4 So, Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

5 Re-cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

6 Q. Witness, do you recall in the questioning that we had several

7 months ago Mr. Ruez was talking to you about the column, and you were

8 talking to him about it, and do you recall --

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic?

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we come back to the

11 same issue. The question in the way I understood your ruling and the

12 suggestion of Judge Wald transcends that framework. It is not my

13 intention to give him any suggestions or advice, on the contrary.

14 Whatever was discussed with Mr. Ruez can be phrased in a separate

15 question.

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. McCloskey, I think

17 that is my opinion. I speak in my own name, but my colleagues can also

18 comment. You can put a question about the column. Go directly to the

19 gist of the question and then we'll see what the answer is.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

21 Q. Do you recall being asked about the column and the -- whether or

22 not you took any action against the armed movement of the column, and your

23 response -- do you recall this response: "As far as I was concerned,

24 those are not troops. Those are lines of people. Columns which were

25 moving on their way to the" --

Page 8569

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Petrusic on his feet.

2 I'm sorry. When you're telling the witness "You remember that a question

3 was put to you," are you referring to the question by Judge Wald or not?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I was referring to Mr. Ruez.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No. Forget that. Forget that

6 there was a statement. Put the question to the witness without reference

7 to the statement. That is our ruling. That is our decision.

8 The question has to do with the column. I know that. You have

9 told us that it is about the column, following a question by Judge Wald.

10 So regarding the column, put one, two, or three questions but without

11 mentioning any previous statement that he may have made to you.

12 JUDGE WALD: There may be some confusion here. At least, it's my

13 understanding, based on past experience here, that you can phrase a

14 question along the following lines: "You testified in answer to

15 Judge Wald that," whatever; you paraphrase what the witness just said.

16 "Do you, on any previous occasion say that you considered the column to

17 be mainly civilians," et cetera, something like that, and then just accept

18 what he has to say.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Visnjic. I'm told

20 that the General needs a break. Is that what you want to tell us?

21 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, but before that,

22 if possible, I should like this question put by Mr. McCloskey that

23 contains a direct quotation from a statement that we are not aware of

24 should be redacted from the transcript as it has entered into the record.

25 It is page 66 or, rather, 65, rows 24, 25; and page 66, rows 1 and 2.

Page 8570

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we really need the break

2 now for health reasons, so that we can think this over a little. But I'm

3 told that the General needs a break. Are you confirming that,

4 Mr. Visnjic?

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we'll have a 10-minute break

7 now.

8 --- Recess taken at 2.12 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you. May I

12 very briefly explain my request?

13 The main issue why we objected to Mr. McCloskey's question is the

14 problem that we are having as we are unable to see whether the

15 Prosecution, during this interview or interrogation or whatever we like to

16 call it, whether his statement was faithfully recorded as we do not have

17 the Serbian or the English versions.

18 As we know, those statements are not interpreted simultaneously so

19 that there are often very serious problems connected to translation. And

20 that is one of the main reasons why we are objecting, because we have no

21 way of checking whether what the witness told Mr. McCloskey was correctly

22 translated, whether the Serbian and the English version of those

23 statements coincide. That is one of the reasons, among others.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think we are turning round in

25 a circle. You have mentioned the statement, so I don't know whether you

Page 8571

1 are going to ask us to redact that reference.

2 So I have to ask you something, Mr. McCloskey, to know exactly

3 where we stand. My question is, what is the purpose of your question? Is

4 it to complement an answer given by the witness in response to a question

5 by Judge Wald on the column, that is, to give more information about that;

6 or is it to impeach the witness because the witness answered you in one

7 way and Judge Wald in another?

8 So what is the purpose of your question? And maybe we should

9 discuss this in the absence of the witness, but go ahead.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: The purpose, the basic purpose was for the Trial

11 Chamber to be able to see what this witness would say in a response to

12 what he said before in order that this matter regarding the column be

13 fully flushed out.

14 In my normal practice, I usually will first use something to

15 refresh the person's recollection, and if it doesn't refresh their

16 recollection and they have said something opposite to what is in this,

17 then I would use it to impeach them. And in that regard -- however, in

18 this particular situation, having it come after the Judge's questions,

19 this is a new area for everyone. And I would -- I am content with what I

20 believe Judge Wald was getting at, is that we just bring this up, see what

21 he says about it, and then, and then stop and it's over.

22 JUDGE WALD: Do you think, do you think your purposes would be

23 satisfied - mine would, I know - if you just more or less paraphrased the

24 question along the line of, "Have you ever on a prior occasion said that

25 you weren't going to" - I'm just using a - "pay attention to the column

Page 8572

1 because it was full of civilians?" He'll say yes or no or give an

2 explanation, and that will be it.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour, I'm fine with that. And of

4 course, based on our previous practice, then we could show, even show the

5 -- though we haven't used it directly, if counsel insists, we could show

6 them the area so they could do the same thing. But that actually gets us

7 into a whole other area, so maybe we should just avoid that.

8 JUDGE WALD: Why don't we end it with the question and let him

9 answer it the way he wants to answer it.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Fair enough.

11 JUDGE WALD: Until --

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think, Mr. Petrusic, because

13 we're slightly in a different situation than on other occasions, we have

14 here a witness called by the Defence, and the Prosecutor has the

15 obligation to disclose statements of the witness to the Defence, but of

16 the witnesses which the Prosecution is calling. Isn't that so? After

17 all, that's a little different. In other words, the Prosecution does not

18 have the obligation to disclose because this is a witness called by the

19 Defence.

20 So I think that we will manage to preserve fairness, which is our

21 objective, and the adversarial principle by allowing the Prosecutor to put

22 one or several questions on this issue. And since they haven't tendered

23 the statement into evidence, the information that will be used is what the

24 Prosecution obtains here in the courtroom, that is, the information --

25 that is the only information you need to cross-examine. There would be a

Page 8573

1 problem if the statement were to be tendered into evidence because then it

2 is evidence. But it is not going to be admitted as evidence.

3 So I think under these conditions, the principles of fairness and

4 adversarialism will be preserved.

5 What do you think, Mr. Petrusic?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Following what you have said

8 regarding fairness and the adversarial principle, I agree with you, but if

9 we resume the examination on the basis of the statement that was given,

10 then the Defence has the right to say no on the basis of the Rules. If we

11 are opening the debate on this issue to establish the credibility of the

12 witness on the basis of that statement, that is, impeaching the witness,

13 then the Defence is opposed and objects.

14 So let me repeat. I agree if we're trying to establish the truth,

15 that is, in accordance with your decision, the decision of the Chamber,

16 and the suggestion of Judge Wald and yourself, that the witness be asked a

17 concrete question regarding what he knows about the column or so on - let

18 me not advise the Prosecution as to the wording - and then the Defence

19 can, if it considers necessary, cross-examine the witness.

20 I find that our situation is rather tricky.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, we are really in

22 an exceptional situation. I think that we're all trying to find a path

23 which will contribute to the truth. It is not customary, after the

24 questions of the Judges, to resume the examination-in-chief and the

25 cross-examination of the same witness. So it is normal that we should

Page 8574

1 have certain hesitations.

2 So would you accept this suggestion of Mr. Petrusic or do you have

3 another one? Otherwise, the Chamber will have to go back to its decision

4 or change its decision.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't fully understand Mr. Petrusic's

6 suggestion. I think I do understand Judge Wald's suggestion and I am

7 perfectly prepared to say, "On a previous occasion," and then give a

8 paraphrase.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I'm sorry for interrupting you,

10 Mr. McCloskey. Mr. Petrusic said that he agreed with the suggestion of

11 Judge Wald. You also said that you agree with Judge Wald. So there must

12 be a misunderstanding.

13 Let me ask Madam Wald to formulate her suggestion, and then we

14 will check because we do have a problem. Mr. Petrusic just said, "I agree

15 with the proposal of Judge Wald." You also said that you agreed with

16 Judge Wald, but, at the same time, you said you do not agree with

17 Mr. Petrusic and he does not agree with you. So there must be some

18 misunderstanding between the three of you.

19 So Judge Wald.

20 JUDGE WALD: My understanding of my suggestion was that

21 Mr. McCloskey would say something along the following lines: "You just

22 testified in response to Judge Wald's question that," paraphrase of what

23 the witness just said right here in the courtroom. "Have you ever on a

24 prior occasion said," a paraphrase. I would not -- given the context

25 here, I would not get into the quotes; a short paraphrase, and then let

Page 8575

1 the witness answer it as he wishes, over and out. That's my understanding

2 of what I suggested.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Now let us try to come to an

4 agreement. Mr. Petrusic, have you heard the suggestion? Do you agree?

5 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Let it be like that then.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Mr. McCloskey, do you agree with this proposal by Judge Wald which

8 Mr. Petrusic agrees with it must be said?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll certainly give it a try. I can't recall

10 exactly all the details but I think I can give it a good try.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then. You will find

12 your own way within those frameworks, I hope. So please proceed.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY:

14 Q. Witness, in a question from Judge Wald regarding the column, you

15 suggested in a manner that the column was not a civilian column. However,

16 at a previous occasion did you tell someone that you did not think these

17 were troops, that they were just people seeking safety or something to

18 that effect?

19 A. Can I try and resolve this dilemma by saying, Mr. McCloskey, I did

20 not say that in that way. First of all, I should like you to bear in mind

21 the fact that, from a large distance, I was able to observe that column

22 with very poor quality optical instruments, that is, binoculars, and even

23 then when I said what I said and now again I believe absolutely that it

24 was a military column. Now, whether a certain percentage of civilians

25 were among them, I don't know by what means I could have possibly noted

Page 8576

1 that or made the distinction.

2 You either misunderstood my previous statement or it was

3 erroneously interpreted.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we're finished.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You managed; you found your

6 way.

7 So, Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic?

8 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while we're still on

9 the subject, I should like to remind you of my objection and request for

10 the redaction of the quotation referred to by Mr. McCloskey and that has

11 been recorded in the transcript.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] But in his answer, the witness

13 mentioned it, so I don't think we can redact it. But in any event, we

14 will not be using that statement as evidence, so there's no problem

15 regarding the identity of the witness. And as we are not using it as

16 evidence, we cannot use the statement of the Prosecutor, which cannot be

17 admitted into evidence, anyway.

18 So, Mr. Petrusic, do you have any cross-examination on this point?

19 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. So no additional

21 questions from Mr. McCloskey, so I think we have succeeded in our attempt

22 to further the truth. Instead of having the witness come back again, I

23 think we found a way out.

24 I personally have a few questions, so it's my turn now.

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 8577

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you said, you

2 testified, that you had soldiers who were more or less 3 or 4 kilometres

3 away from the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road. Did I understand you right?

4 A. Yes, at certain points in time.

5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Because after all, your

6 soldiers were not stationary; they were moving. I also think I understood

7 you saying in an answer to Mr. McCloskey that there were transports of

8 people coming from Potocari. Did I understand you right?

9 A. I assume there was, and I think that's what I said on the basis of

10 what I learnt later on; otherwise, that road was a road with heavy

11 traffic. So I couldn't note where the starting point was for a truck, for

12 example, tractor, bus, or anything like that.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My question is the following,

14 Witness: Did you learn about that movement because your soldiers told you

15 about it; or did you learn from any other source, and if so, which source?

16 A. First of all, my soldiers informed me about -- from the

17 observation posts that we had, that along the road there was dense

18 traffic, but they could not have informed me as to the means, the

19 equipment, or anything else that was being transported in those vehicles.

20 And later on from the information media, as I said, or from the newspapers

21 or television, I learnt that that was the road where the transport, among

22 others, of the civilians and prisoners took place, that sort of thing.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When did you learn about this

24 from the media?

25 A. It was after the war and just before I started to follow this

Page 8578

1 trial in the Slobodna Bosna newspaper or some media that reported on it.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So this link between the traffic

3 on the road and the transportation of people coming from Potocari, when

4 did you link the two together?

5 A. Well, I might have linked it up in more detail only after I had

6 insight into what the press was saying and the media.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] When your soldiers informed you

8 that there was a lot of traffic along that road - I think that is what I

9 understood you to have said - did you understand also why there was that

10 traffic and that movement?

11 A. I could only have assumed, but not in any detail because, as I

12 say, it was not my duty to control the passage along that road.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that you could only

14 make assumptions. What assumptions did you make at the time?

15 A. I assumed that it was exclusively civilians moving along that road

16 which were being transported from the Potocari area further on, I did not

17 know where. Because please believe me when I say, from that distance,

18 whatever you have in the way of optical equipment, you wouldn't be able to

19 distinguish what the person was being transported. That would be

20 impossible. You couldn't distinguish that by looking through -- at it

21 through binoculars. You could just distinguish whether it was a bus,

22 truck, tractor, or something like that, but no other details at all.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You were responsible for a

24 military unit at the time. Did you know what the objective was of the

25 military operation that you were involved in at the time?

Page 8579

1 A. I did not know the objective, and I said that in my previous

2 statement, nor did I know at all about the attack on Srebrenica. It was

3 only on the 6th of July that I learnt from the Chief of Staff who brought

4 me the document and informed me about the situation in that territory. Up

5 until then, it was my exclusive duty and obligation to put up a decisive,

6 resolute defence in the area under my battalion's control.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can it be said that you learnt

8 that there was an operation on Srebrenica on the 6th when the Chief of

9 Staff visited you?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Something else: Could you try

12 to explain to us how come that there were trucks and buses and vehicles

13 going past? Of course, as you said, you were not able to identify the

14 persons inside, but in any event, there was a lot of traffic. Was it

15 possible for the civilians themselves to be aware of that movement?

16 A. I'm afraid I did not understand the question.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You said that you were a rather

18 -- some distance away from the road, some soldiers 3 or

19 4 kilometres away. Let me put the question differently. Were there any

20 civilians along the road, people living there, civilians who lived in the

21 area?

22 A. Well, I really don't know. I can only assume that there could

23 have been some.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very much,

25 witness. You have just finished your testimony here. Thank you very much

Page 8580

1 for coming, and we wish you a safe journey home. Thank you, Witness, for

2 coming.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The usher must pull down the

5 blinds to lead the witness out because we have some other things to

6 address. So don't move yet for the moment.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I was about to address the

9 question of documents that we have to deal with. I think that we have

10 documents referring to this witness and the other documents of which we

11 have a list. Perhaps it would be better to deal separately with the

12 documents of Professor and General Radinovic, then the documents of this

13 witness, and then we'll come back to the others.

14 Would you agree with that, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Visnjic, Mr. Cayley,

15 and Mr. McCloskey?

16 So Mr. Visnjic, for General Radinovic, I think that we have a list

17 of your documents. Perhaps to facilitate things, we could give a number

18 to this list and then refer to all the documents in that list under that

19 number.

20 Would you agree with that, Mr. Cayley --

21 MR. CAYLEY: Yes.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] -- instead of going through the

23 whole list?

24 MR. CAYLEY: I have not actually seen this list, Mr. President,

25 but I have been through all of the Defence exhibits for Professor

Page 8581

1 Radinovic, and Mr. Visnjic and I have already agreed -- somebody is

2 handing me a copy of the list now. I have been through all of these, and

3 I have no objection to any of these exhibits.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Visnjic.

5 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, all that remains for

6 me to do is to suggest that this list be numbered D161.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Can you confirm that,

8 Madam Registrar?

9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. It will be Exhibit D161.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. I don't know

11 whether this is a problem or not, but I have with me Defence Exhibit 160/A

12 and B. No. I was going to say that it was not on the list, but it is, so

13 I withdraw what I had just said.

14 So the documents on the list -- Mr. Cayley, you have the list

15 now?

16 MR. CAYLEY: I do, Mr. President, yes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the documents figuring on the

18 list which has been marked as D161 are admitted into evidence.

19 So now, Mr. Cayley, do you have any observation to make?

20 MR. CAYLEY: The only observation I would make is something that's

21 already been agreed between the parties, but just to put it on the record,

22 that we agreed that there would be a deletion of a section, which I think

23 has already been said. It was the section on law which

24 Professor Radinovic addressed, and I think the Defence have agreed to

25 submit a revised version of the report without that section.

Page 8582

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

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Page 8583

1 Mr. Visnjic is nodding.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. I think it's

3 paragraph 2, page something. It's slipped my mind. Is that correct? So

4 we will have a new version of the same document which will be marked bis.

5 Is that acceptable, Mr. Visnjic, Mr. Cayley?

6 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we

7 already have a number under bis, and it is the corrigendum.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, I believe so.

9 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps the number could be 160/1.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar. Or ter

11 perhaps.

12 THE REGISTRAR: I was just going to confirm that we did have

13 D160 bis. Perhaps we could have D160 ter.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.

15 Mr. Cayley, is that acceptable?

16 MR. CAYLEY: That's fine, Mr. President, yes.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So have we regulated everything

18 regarding the exhibits produced during the testimony of General Radinovic

19 on the side of the Defence?

20 Now, Mr. Cayley, do you have any documents to tender?

21 MR. CAYLEY: I have four documents. They are Prosecutor's

22 Exhibit 746, 759, 760, 762, and 777.

23 I don't believe that Mr. Visnjic has any objections to those

24 documents - we've already discussed the matter - and if that is the case,

25 I would apply for those to be admitted into evidence. Thank you.

Page 8584

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Just a clarification,

2 Mr. Cayley. I see on the transcript "746." Is it 746 or 756?

3 MR. CAYLEY: That's correct, Mr. President. It's 746.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So the French interpretation, I

5 think, made an error, but never mind, everything is clear now.

6 So, Mr. Visnjic, any objection?

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no objections.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. So these

9 exhibits of the Prosecutor are admitted into evidence.

10 Now, then, Mr. Petrusic, the testimony of this witness. Are there

11 any exhibits to be tendered by the Defence?

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it was Exhibit D25/1

13 that I wished to have admitted, and the other exhibits that the Defence

14 used have been assigned numbers by the Prosecutor and those will be the

15 numbers that they will go by. They were Exhibit -- OTP Exhibit 782, but

16 after I hear from the Prosecution.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, but are you saying already

18 that you have no objections or do you have objections? To speed things

19 up.

20 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] We have no objections at all with

21 respect to the OTP exhibits in connection with this witness who was

22 Witness DF.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey. And you have the

24 advantage that you know in advance that there are no objections. So maybe

25 you can take advantage of it and tender some more.

Page 8585

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I can just list the numbers of the new

2 exhibits, though I should say they're already in evidence as part of

3 Mr. Butler's very large collection. But since we referred to them

4 specifically with these new numbers, we should have that in the record,

5 and that is Exhibit 751, 782, 752, 778, 753, 799, 757, 758, 809, and

6 809 bis.

7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you taken note, Madam

8 Registrar, that there is no objection on the side of the Defence, and

9 these exhibits are admitted into evidence.

10 We now have this, an older set of documents, if I may call them

11 that. You remember that we discussed previously some exhibits among which

12 some required additional clarification. The question was addressed by

13 Mr. Harmon and Mr. Petrusic, that is to say, Exhibit 792/A and "B."

14 I think there was a memo from the translation service, and is it ready or

15 not?

16 Do you have any information about that, Mr. Harmon? The

17 translation service, I think, should have provided a brief memo regarding

18 a discussion we had.

19 MR. HARMON: If you can bear with me for just a minute,

20 Mr. President. I did receive a memo in respect of an exhibit. I don't

21 have it at my disposal. There it is.

22 I just don't have the exhibit number associated with this memo

23 that is dated the 28th of November, 2000. Perhaps we could pass on this

24 for just a moment and I can clarify this, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. Harmon.

Page 8586

1 We also have another matter, and that is document 823. And the

2 Defence said that it would comment on it the following week, and I think

3 that week is already behind us, so I don't know if you remember. It

4 regarded a revision of a translation of an order by the Drina Corps dated

5 the 12th of May, 1995. And I think there was another exhibit, 823/A bis,

6 which I think is a revised translation.

7 In any event, the Defence said that it would prepare a definite

8 answer. I don't know whether they have that answer now. Mr. Petrusic,

9 have you any observations to make now about this?

10 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] As it is a translation, just one

11 moment, Mr. President, if I may, to consult my colleagues.

12 [Defence counsel confers]

13 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we cannot give an

14 answer at this point. My colleague, Mr. Visnjic, has suggested to me,

15 that is to say he said he probably asked the translation service. I know

16 the document that it refers to, the May document, and the witness who

17 commented on that document, but as far as I have been informed by

18 Mr. Visnjic, the translation service has still not provided us with a

19 revised translation, that is to say, no information about this

20 translation. So we will have to wait.

21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So Mr. Petrusic, we will see

22 what we can do.

23 Let's go on now to Exhibit 830, 830, and Exhibit 838 bis, and I

24 would like to ask the Prosecutor whether 838 bis should not be 830 bis?

25 Regarding this exhibit, the Defence said the same thing, that it

Page 8587

1 would pronounce itself the next week, and that was last week.

2 So my question first to the Prosecutor. This document, 838 bis,

3 is linked to document 830, and it seems to us that perhaps there was a

4 typing error, that the number of the document should be 830 bis, but I

5 would like to hear from you.

6 MR. HARMON: My colleague who manages these affairs very capably

7 for me informs me there is no 838. It is probably 830/A bis.

8 Furthermore, that the translation service has completed their revision of

9 this document, and that the Defence has been provided with a copy of the

10 revision, but they needed time to review the revision. And that's where I

11 left off, my office left off in terms of assessing the status of this

12 particular document, so we're waiting for a reply from the Defence.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we should address 830 bis and

14 not 838, because in the transcript there is reference to 838 bis, so this

15 needs to be corrected so that the document should bear the number 830 bis.

16 Has the Defence got a position on this document? Because I think

17 the document is dated the 11th of July, 1995, and there was a problem

18 regarding the signature, the signature block, and which was revised, but

19 the Defence said that it would take a position later. Is the Defence able

20 to do so now?

21 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I owe the Trial

22 Chamber an apology, and I hope you accept that apology, because I'm not in

23 a position at this point to give my opinion. I haven't got the document

24 at present, and I just did not have time to focus on that problem, which

25 does not mean that in the coming period we shall not be informing the

Page 8588

1 Trial Chamber as soon as possible of what we think. So we will be

2 informing the Trial Chamber.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Surely. But after all, we

4 cannot decide without having everything cleared up. If one party tells us

5 that they will give us an answer, we need to have that answer to be able

6 to decide. So I'm now going to review all the documents that are in this

7 status before we make a decision.

8 We have the Defence Exhibit 79, which is in the same position and

9 is awaiting revision of the English translation. The same applies to

10 Exhibit 81.

11 Have we received revisions of the English translation? Do we have

12 them down, Mr. Visnjic?

13 Mr. Harmon has just told us that the translation service has

14 completed all the revisions. I don't know whether Mr. Harmon was

15 referring to revisions as well or just translations.

16 Yes, Mr. Visnjic.

17 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] As far as Exhibit 79 is concerned, I

18 think that it was a poor photocopy of that exhibit. We showed a better

19 copy of this to the Prosecution, and as far as I was able to understand,

20 they have no objections to it. By the time Mr. Harmon says whether he

21 agrees with me, I can look up the next exhibit and give you my opinion

22 there.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You know the answer in advance

24 too, Mr. Visnjic, perhaps.

25 Mr. Harmon.

Page 8589

1 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I maybe can assist the Chamber in this

2 discussion of a large number of exhibits that were unregulated at the

3 conclusion of the last trial session block.

4 The Prosecution's office had objected to Defence Exhibits D27

5 through Defence Exhibit, as I recall, D74, and in that respect, we, the

6 Defence and the Prosecutor's Office, have not had a meeting in the interim

7 time to discuss attempting to regulate those exhibits.

8 Mr. Visnjic did give me a clear copy of Defence Exhibit 97 to

9 which I had previously objected because the name block had been removed

10 from the bottom. So in respect of D97, I will withdraw my objection at

11 this time, and I believe that a version of this exhibit should be entered

12 into the record with the complete signature block or the typed block that

13 was missing.

14 So I think there should be, Your Honour, with the Defence's

15 consent, a resubmission of the complete document and it should be given a

16 bis number, and once that is done, I have no objection, as I say, to D97.

17 Other than that, we have not gotten together to discuss attempting

18 to regulate our differences on the other documents, and I think we would

19 be in a position, since we have ended this week early, to quickly conclude

20 those discussions this week, and when we resume on the next session, we

21 would be able to inform the Chamber completely as to all of these

22 outstanding exhibits.

23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I think that is a good

24 suggestion because we are overstepping the time already by 15 minutes. So

25 my suggestion would be the following: With the exception of this exhibit

Page 8590

1 that Mr. Harmon has just mentioned, that is, Exhibit D97, if we add, "With

2 the complete signature," that will become Exhibit D97 bis. If the Defence

3 agrees, then we can go through a whole block of documents which have

4 already been admitted into evidence.

5 So my question is does the Defence agree with this suggestion that

6 the document be called 97 bis once the whole signature block is added?

7 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So I'm going to tell you which

9 exhibits we can decide on straight away to clear things up a little.

10 The exhibits which were, in a sense, admitted but which the

11 Chamber did not declare admitted are Prosecution Exhibits 145/1, 367 bis,

12 765, 765/A, 765/B, 807, 812, 837. Defence exhibits which are also

13 admitted, D74 and D76 through to D134. That's it. Also D135, D137/A

14 and B, D138/B, D139/A [Realtime transcript read in error"D39/A"] and B,

15 D140/A and B. I see on the transcript "D39." It's not D39, it's D139.

16 So D139/A and B. So 541/A and B -- no, sorry. 141/A and B, 143/B, 144,

17 145, and 146.

18 As you know, there was a question regarding Exhibit 836/1

19 through to 7. So 836/1 through to 836/7. These were documents related to

20 General Krstic, and one could call them private documents.

21 The position of the Chamber is that these documents were not

22 relevant and, therefore, rules not to admit them into evidence.

23 So those are the rulings of the Chamber for the moment.

24 The documents that remain outstanding are Prosecution Exhibits

25 792/A and B; 830 and 830 bis, since we have clarified that 830 bis

Page 8591

1 replaces the reference in the transcript to 838; also 823 and 823/A bis.

2 The Defence exhibits that remain outstanding are D27 through to

3 D71, as well as 79, 81, 109, 109, and for these three exhibits we have to

4 see whether the revisions of English translations are ready or not. And

5 finally, Defence Exhibit D132/A and B.

6 So we have a set of documents that have already been admitted into

7 evidence, and then there is this last set which are still outstanding and

8 need to be discussed by the parties so as to clarify certain minor points.

9 Mr. Visnjic, is there any response by the parties, or it is time

10 to adjourn?

11 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] I just see in line 24,

12 Mr. President, that you said D142/A and B, but whereas in the transcript

13 it says D132.

14 Am I right that you said D142/A, B, that was the last number you

15 read out?

16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] The last number is 142, yes,

17 142. Which line is it?

18 MR. VISNJIC: [Interpretation] Twenty-four, page eighty-six.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Line 24. Yes, you are quite

20 right, thank you very much. It is 142/A and B, not 132/A and B.

21 Mr. Harmon, any observations or remarks by the Prosecution?

22 MR. HARMON: Not at this time, Mr. President. Should there be

23 any, we will raise them at the next occasion. Thank you.

24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

25 much. I apologise, I hadn't intended to overstep our time limit. When we

Page 8592

1 started this discussion, it was ten to three, and I hoped we would have

2 finished quickly, so I apologise to the staff members, but we won't be

3 seeing each other for the rest of the year, I think.

4 So I think we will meet in January, so I take advantage of this

5 opportunity to wish to those who do celebrate it, that is, Merry

6 Christmas, though some celebrate it on the 25th of December, others on the

7 6th or 7th of January; and then also there is the new year, and all those

8 who are able to celebrate it, I hope you have a festive celebration.

9 So we will meet again next year; have a good holiday, and success

10 in your work to all of you.

11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3:34 p.m.

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