1 Wednesday, 21 March 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before beginning, good morning.

7 Good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, the registry staff,

8 the counsel for the Prosecution, the counsel for the Defence, and good

9 morning to General Krstic.

10 Before we actually begin, I would like to say that today we are

11 going to work in the morning until a quarter past 12.00, and after which

12 we will have a break of an hour and a quarter, which means we will resume

13 at 1.30 to go on until 4.30. I don't know if everyone has been prepared

14 for this. We ourselves were rather surprised. Because we have to free

15 the courtroom for that period. So I would like to know from the parties

16 whether this will cause any inconvenience.

17 The Prosecution first, please.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're fine, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, for the Defence.

20 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No problems so far as we are

21 concerned as well, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Another

23 question has to do with the ruling of last Monday. The Chamber confirms

24 its oral decision regarding the motion to decide whether the statements,

25 intercepted statements of the accused came under the provisions of Rule

1 66(A) or 66(B). The Chamber maintains its oral decision and ruling that

2 those statements fall within the category of Article 66(B); in other

3 words, they are not preliminary statements in the sense of Rule 66(A) but

4 are documents in the meaning of Rule 66(B).

5 As for the other party [as interpreted] regarding the late use of

6 these radio intercepts by the Prosecutor, the Chamber will be rendering a

7 written decision, and I think that things will be much clearer in that

8 way, and they already are clearer. That is, the Chamber will be rendering

9 a written ruling regarding that motion. So we are now in a position to

10 begin.

11 Witness, could you stand, please. Good morning. Can you hear

12 me?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please read the solemn

15 declaration handed to you by the usher.

16 WITNESS: WITNESS FF

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may be seated.

21 Please make yourself as comfortable as possible. Thank you very

22 much for coming. First you will be answering questions put to you by the

23 Prosecution. I think it will be in the person of Mr. McCloskey.

24 Mr. McCloskey, your witness.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And if we could go into

1 closed session very briefly for his background. I've discussed this with

2 Defence counsel and there was no objection.

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Before we continue,

20 Mr. McCloskey, just a moment, please.

21 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey, as this witness

23 has a pseudonym, we need to establish the link between his name and the

24 pseudonym. So perhaps you could write down the name of the witness, the

25 name and the pseudonym, and obtain from the witness confirmation before we

1 continue, as we're still at the level of identification of the witness.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: You should have a yellow sheet with his name from

3 yesterday, but here's a new sheet.

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Witness, you see your name

5 written on this piece of paper? Is that indeed your name? Just say yes

6 or no.

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] You may continue,

9 Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Q. Witness FF, before joining the Interception Unit of the Bosnian

12 Muslim army, did you have an interest in and a hobby in ham radio

13 operations?

14 A. Yes. As a 10-year-old boy, I joined a radio club in Banovici in

15 those days, and I learnt about electronics, Morse's code, and all the

16 other things linked to ham operations, and I'm still an active member of

17 ham association. Developing my work as a radio amateur, I passed all the

18 tests so that I received the highest possible qualification in that

19 field.

20 Q. As a member of the Interception Unit for 2nd Corps, where were you

21 assigned in July 1995?

22 A. In July 1995, we were on Mount Konjuh, where we had been ever

23 since June 1993, actually.

24 Q. What was your position on Konjuh?

25 A. I was platoon leader, consisting of two squads in those days.

1 Q. What was your rank?

2 A. I later acquired a rank, that is, in 1994, the rank of

3 lieutenant.

4 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber has heard quite a bit about the various

5 procedures in your work there, so I will not go into that with you, but

6 what I do want to ask you about is various notebook entries, printout

7 entries, and in one case, an actual audiotaped conversation.

8 So I first want to direct your attention to Exhibit 747, which is

9 to your left, but if you could look at the original notebook. First of

10 all, if you could find Exhibit 747. Its a photocopy to your left. And if

11 you could actually go to the original notebook, which is on your right,

12 and if you could go to the area marked there where there are two

13 conversations, and if you could just take a look at those two

14 conversations.

15 What pages are they on the original notebook? I'm referring to

16 the conversations one at 1240 hours and one at 1300 hours.

17 I would just like you to confirm, if you could, that the

18 photocopies in Exhibit 747 are the identical and exact copies of the

19 material in the original notebook which is next to you regarding

20 especially those two conversations I referred to.

21 A. Just a moment, please, for me to find it in the copy. Is it this

22 conversation at 1350 hours?

23 Q. 1240 and 1300, in your handwriting, on the day where the little

24 yellow marker is, the ones we've discussed in my office, noted between

25 Krstic and Popovic.

1 A. Then it's not what has been marked in the notebook.

2 Q. I'm sorry. It should be in the other notebook. I'm sorry.

3 You're exactly right. And it's the second --

4 A. In the other one, maybe.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes, here it is. 1240 and 1300 hours. Those are the times.

7 Q. I'm sorry. That's Exhibit 835. Sorry, it's Exhibit 844.

8 A. Yes, that's it now.

9 Q. All right. Looking in Exhibit 844, is that an exact copy of the

10 two conversations that I mentioned earlier, 1300 hours and 1240 hours,

11 from the original notebook?

12 A. Yes. Yes. They are true copies of my handwriting.

13 Q. Are you the person that listened to the conversation and

14 transcribed it in that notebook?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was that done at the time noted in the exhibit?

17 A. Yes, the same day. After the conversation was recorded, it was

18 taken down in the notebook.

19 Q. All right. Now if we could do the same thing for one other

20 conversation, and that is in the original notebook I had you looking at,

21 which is Exhibit 747. And the conversation I would like you to confirm is

22 in Exhibit 862/A at 10 hours, between a Mandzuka and a General Krstic.

23 A. Yes, I've found it in the original notebook.

24 Q. Now if you could find it in the copy of the original notebook,

25 which is 747.

1 A. I've found it.

2 Q. Now --

3 A. I've found it.

4 Q. All right. That is a conversation at 10.00 between Mandzuka and

5 General Krstic, and is that particular conversation in your handwriting?

6 A. No, this is not my handwriting. This is the handwriting of

7 another operator.

8 Q. Can you confirm that the notebook at 747 is an accurate and a true

9 example of the kinds of notebooks that were used by you and your soldiers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How can you do that?

12 A. I can confirm it because I know the kind of notebooks we were

13 given to write in, and also I have had two notebooks here in front of me,

14 and the two are identical.

15 Q. Can you tell us -- can you determine from the notebook the

16 conversation between Mandzuka and General Krstic, what date it occurred

17 on?

18 A. This conversation, the date of the conversation can be determined

19 on the basis of the computer-typed text. Here in the notebook it would

20 take a little longer to find it, because the date was not indicated every

21 day. But if you were to take all the notebooks into consideration, then

22 one could establish the exact date.

23 Q. Okay. Could you go to Exhibit 860/A and B, which should be that

24 printout that should be right to your left, and 860/B is the actual

25 Bosnian version of that. Could you take a look at the conversation noted

1 at 10.00 between Krstic and Mandzuka? Does this appear to be the kind of

2 printout that would have been sent to headquarters after such a

3 conversation was transcribed?

4 A. Yes. That is how we worked. It was printed out with a header,

5 with the information regarding frequency, the participants in the

6 conversation. So that is how we worked, so that could be it.

7 Q. You're also looking at Exhibit 862/B, which is just a photocopy of

8 the original notebook of this particular Mandzuka/Krstic conversation; is

9 that right?

10 A. Yes. That is the original.

11 Q. Now, again referring to the printout, what time, according to the

12 printout of this Mandzuka/Krstic conversation, or what date was this

13 conversation of 10.00 a.m. actually intercepted on, based on the

14 printout? And again, that's Exhibit 860/B.

15 A. 860/B?

16 Q. Yes. The conversation is on the last two pages.

17 A. Yes, and the date the 2nd of August, 1995 is clearly indicated

18 there.

19 Q. All right. Now, let's go back to the conversations between Krstic

20 and Popovic, one first at 1240 hours and then the next at 1300 hours. And

21 first of all, looking at the notebook, can you determine the dates of

22 those two conversations that you actually took down from the notebook?

23 A. Yes, because the date the 2nd of August is indicated after the

24 transcripts of these conversations.

25 Q. How do you work your way back to determining your conversations

1 are actually on the same date, August 2nd?

2 A. It can be seen by the time when it was noted in the notebook, the

3 first one at 1240 and then the next one at 1300.

4 Q. All right. Now if you could go to, I believe, Exhibit 852/A and

5 B, which is a printout, and 851/A and B. 851/A and B and 852/A and B

6 should reflect the printouts of these two conversations. And if you have

7 a chance to look at 852/A and 851/A, do those represent printouts of those

8 two conversations?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What dates are reflected on those printouts for the two

11 conversations between Krstic and Popovic?

12 A. On the printouts the date is the 2nd of August, 1995, the same

13 date as in the notebook.

14 Q. That's for both conversations, at 1300 hours and at 1240?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, Exhibits 850/A and 853/A are

17 photocopies of the notebook entries, and I'll just have the witness

18 confirm that.

19 JUDGE WALD: Mr. McCloskey, just for clarification, since there's

20 so many intercepts floating around here, I know that the two which have

21 the conversations between General Krstic and Popovic, I know they're

22 history. But these other three, or these other ones that we're now

23 talking about, have they been introduced in evidence previously or is this

24 the first time they're coming in? Just so I get my -- everything

25 straight.

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am talking right now about three intercepts, two

2 that he actually took notes on and one that he recognised someone else

3 taking notes on, all occurring on August 2nd.

4 JUDGE WALD: I understand the two, or at least the two I -- the

5 Krstic/Popovic ones. Okay. I'm clear. I'm not clear about the other

6 ones, whether they're already in evidence or being introduced for the

7 first time.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. Like the two I've just mentioned, this is

9 also a new conversation. It is a Krstic/Mandzuka conversation.

10 JUDGE WALD: That's all I wanted to know. Thank you. I mean, I

11 got it.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was provided at the same time to the Defence.

13 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY:

15 Q. All right. So if you could just take a quick look at 850/A

16 and B - it would be 850/B for you, and 853/B - to confirm that those are

17 accurate photocopies of the material in the notebooks.

18 A. 853/A is. I'm looking at it now. And 851/B; is that right?

19 Q. 853/A and 850/A.

20 A. Yes, I have it in front of me now. That too is an original copy

21 of the handwritten version.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, Your Honours, I believe the witness has said

24 all we need him to say on these three conversations, and I would, to try

25 to clarify these conversations, I would just read them into the record.

1 That would be my request, or Your Honours may just purely read the

2 conversations if you would like, but ...

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. The first conversation at 1000 a.m. is

6 between Mandzuka and General Krstic, 862A.

7 M: Hello, General. It's all OK. I'll be done today. I'm up

8 here at Sokolina and Bandijera. It looks as though they're planning

9 something.

10 K: Uh-huh. And how did it go?

11 M: We just have a few down in the creek. Some of them have

12 gone through, about 1,000, of them.

13 K: You shouldn't have let any of them escape.

14 M: We didn't dare to cross over into the other state. We

15 just checked the terrain by helicopter yesterday. It's pretty

16 inaccessible. Did you see how the Serbian Ministers accepted them over

17 there like liberators? Even the Red Cross came.

18 K: Where were they met?

19 M: In Bajina Basta.

20 K: Register all --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please slow down.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 K: Register all R.S. /Republika Srpska/ Muslims over there so

24 we can use them for exchange. How many more are down there?

25 M: About 2.000 altogether. Beara went over there to Serbia.

1 He'll take care of it. There are some captured and dead. Those who

2 crossed the river threw away their weapons while those who headed for

3 Kladanj were probably armed.

4 K: They threw away their weapons over there. There are some

5 down there towards Srebrenica. Search everything.

6 M: Everything is going according to plan, General.

7 K: Good. Good bye.

8 The next conversation, Exhibit 850A, at 1240 hours between Krstic

9 and Popovic:

10 P: It's Popovic.

11 K: Krstic.

12 P: Go ahead, boss?

13 K: Get on over to Bajina Basta, you and Kosoric. You know

14 what you have to do.

15 P: Yes.

16 K: Is that clear?

17 P: Clear.

18 K: If necessary, give me a call from somewhere. Have we

19 understood each other?

20 P: Understood. Has he set out from up there towards me?

21 K: Who?

22 P: Pero, in fact, Cica.

23 K: He is on his way, fuck him.

24 P: He went up there because we had some parcels, to check

25 what they know.

1 K: Good.

2 P: He is up there at Trnosavac.

3 K: Good. Get in touch with him and straight on to Bajina

4 Basta, as soon as possible.

5 P: Clear.

6 K: Go on.

7 P: Bye.

8 The next conversation at 1300 hours, OTP Exhibit 853A, between

9 Krstic and Popovic:

10 K: Yes?

11 P: Hey, boss.

12 K: Go ahead.

13 P: Beara has just called me. He came back from there this

14 morning.

15 K: Yes.

16 P: He said he reported to Miletic.

17 K: Yes.

18 P: There are about 500 - 600 of them over there.

19 K: Did you understand me, man? What do we have to do with

20 them up there?

21 P: It's like this. They don't allow anyone to talk with them

22 at all.

23 K: Is that clear to you, Popovic?

24 P: Yes.

25 K: You and KOSORIC go straight on to Bajina Basta. Do you

1 know what you're supposed to do?

2 P: He tells me: You'll go there for nothing.

3 K: Get in touch with that MARKOVIC, the commander of ...

4 battalion.

5 P: Yes.

6 K: I want you to bringing me Turks back here. Is that clear,

7 man?

8 P: Well, everything is clear to me, except if they won't give

9 them?

10 K: What do you mean, they won't give them?

11 P: Well, they won't give them.

12 K: They're our Turks, man!

13 P: Well, the MUP /Ministry of the Interior/ doesn't allow any

14 access.

15 K: What?

16 P: The MUP doesn't allow access, do you understand?

17 K: I'll turn the gun-barrels on them. Did you understand?

18 P: Understood.

19 K: That's it. Go there as soon as possible.

20 P: Understood.

21 K: Go on.

22 P: Good.

23 K: Bye.

24 P: Bye.

25 Now, Your Honours, I will now ask the witness -- there is one more

1 exhibit in this case which I'll ask the witness about.

2 Q. Witness, have you had a chance to hear a taped account of the

3 conversation between Krstic and Popovic that took place, according to

4 these memos, at 1300 hours on August 2nd?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know if what you heard on the tape -- I see Mr. Petrusic

7 standing.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Petrusic.

9 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence would

10 like to object. I consider that the witness should, first of all, have to

11 say whether he taped the conversation and whether he transcribed it and

12 then whether he heard the tape, listened to the tape.

13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Witness, I believe when we went through the notebook on this 1300

16 hours conversation -- did you have anything to do with this transcribing

17 of this conversation at 1300 hours, on August 2nd between Krstic and

18 Popovic?

19 A. Yes. I recorded the conversation and transcribed it from the tape

20 to the notebook.

21 Q. In the normal course of your duties and the normal process that

22 you and the rest of your people did?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Then the tape that was played in my office, do you

25 know -- was that tape related to the conversation in the notebook of the

1 1300 hours conversation, August 2nd?

2 A. Yes. What I heard was that conversation.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Your Honours, at this time, I would

4 offer to play the actual original tape. We have a tape, Exhibit 854, for

5 evidence, but with our problem yesterday, I think we should be ready to

6 play again the original tape of this conversation.

7 And if I could ask the interpretation booth not to translate for

8 this, if we could just listen to the tape.

9 [Audiotape played]

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. Could we start up again? The

11 transcript of this is Exhibit 854A. I've got it, but I'm not sure that

12 everyone else has had a chance to look at it. If they could get it in

13 front of them, that would be more appropriate.

14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Yes. That would be a good idea,

15 to have the transcript before us.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have the English on the ELMO. If

17 everyone has it and you've, I'm sorry, managed to get the tape back to

18 where it should be started, then we can play it again. I apologise to the

19 booth for that.

20 [Audiotape played]

21 MR. McCLOSKEY:

22 Q. Witness FF, is that the conversation that you heard on August 2nd

23 and transcribed in the notebook?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: No further questions.

1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

2 Mr. Petrusic for the cross-examination. Please go ahead. Your

3 witness.

4 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Petrusic:

6 Q. Witness, in the course of your work at the intercept centre where

7 you worked, did you have occasion to hear the voice of General Krstic?

8 A. Yes, a number of times.

9 Q. Can you explain how you could arrive at the conclusion, the

10 undisputed conclusion -- can you explain how you could arrive at the

11 conclusion, the undisputed conclusion, that in a particular case it was,

12 in fact, General Krstic's voice if he failed to introduce himself on the

13 radio device?

14 A. Well, Mr. Krstic usually did give his name. Not only did we know

15 his voice, we knew many of the voices of the other officers as well.

16 Q. In this particular conversation, Exhibit 854, which has just been

17 dealt with by the Prosecutor, we have none of this identification, that is

18 to say, General Krstic does not identify himself.

19 Were there any characteristic traits of voice on the basis of

20 which you were therefore able to arrive at that conclusion?

21 A. Well, not only me. We all knew General Krstic by his voice

22 because he was present for a long time on the frequencies, in

23 conversations. So we were able to do that and we always knew. We were

24 able to confirm not only him, but we knew many of the officers by

25 listening to their voices.

1 Q. What do you mean when you say that he was on the air for a long

2 time, the conversations that you tapped into?

3 A. Well, I'm referring to the period which my testimony relates to.

4 He was the Commander of the Drina Corps and before him there was

5 General Zivanovic.

6 Q. Please try to be more concrete and give us a time. What time

7 period? And please wait for me to finish my question and make pauses

8 between question and answer, please.

9 You say the Commander of the Drina Corps. What period was that?

10 A. I can't give you precise data. I didn't think it necessary to

11 remember them, and a lot of time has passed since then, so I can't give

12 you an exact date, but from the documents and how he moved around in the

13 service, that is something that is a known factor. And Krstic was not

14 unknown to me from previous periods at the other battlefield, Olovo

15 battlefield. I know that he lost a leg there in the operations there. So

16 that's it.

17 Q. Let us return to this particular period. You say that it was the

18 period when he became commander of the Drina Corps and that before him it

19 was Zivanovic. I'm not interested in a date. I'm not interested in a

20 date when he became commander of the Drina Corps. What I'm interested in

21 is the time frame that you intercepted him, monitored him.

22 A. Well, I know that it was before the operations at Srebrenica that

23 he was there, he was present there, so we know him since before, since

24 before the events that I am testifying to now.

25 Q. Could you be a little more specific, because it's not very

1 specific.

2 A. Well, I can't remember exactly. I don't remember the event

3 exactly. I didn't attach importance to it. I did not know that I would

4 be called upon to testify, to remember that.

5 Q. Witness FF, I'm not linking you to this event and the conversation

6 of the 2nd of August. All I'm asking you for is the time frame when you

7 monitored this.

8 A. Well, I can't remember. I don't want to say something that I'm

9 not sure of.

10 Q. Did you or any of your colleagues from the intercept centre have

11 occasion to -- that is to say, before you began doing work of this kind,

12 interception and monitoring, did you in any way -- did you have an

13 undisputed sample of General Krstic's voice?

14 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't understand you.

15 Q. Were you at one point able to have a definite sample of General

16 Krstic's voice, either by radio, television, or anything like that?

17 A. No. Before the war I never even knew or heard of General Krstic.

18 Q. What about during the war?

19 A. During the war -- well, you're asking me before, a certain sample

20 before I began doing my work. No, I did not. Only during the period when

21 I was actively engaged in that kind of work.

22 Q. Witness FF, did you record a conversation between General Krstic

23 and a certain Mandzuka?

24 A. No. I said I did not, that it was not my handwriting.

25 Q. Therefore you did not introduce it into the notebook?

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1 A. No, I did not introduce it into the notebook, because it's not my

2 handwriting.

3 Q. In this notebook, which bears the number 748 [sic], or rather

4 notebook 103, is there a conversation there which you intercepted and

5 allegedly registered the voice of General Krstic?

6 A. You've mentioned the Mandzuka conversation, now you're asking me

7 something that I'm not quite sure what you're asking, because this

8 conversation with Mandzuka is not my handwriting, and I've already said

9 that.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to help counsel, that notebook 103 is 747,

11 for the record, not 748.

12 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I misspoke. Thank you very

13 much to my learned colleague for the assistance.

14 Q. Therefore, that conversation was not recorded by you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You have looked through the notebook?

17 A. Yes. I have the conversation with Mandzuka in front of me.

18 Q. During the preparations and testimony, you have had a chance to

19 look through the notebook, have you not?

20 A. Well, I didn't look through the entire notebook; I just looked at

21 this particular conversation. I didn't leaf through the notebook further,

22 because the Prosecutor just asked me to state my views on this particular

23 conversation in the notebook, so that I didn't go through the rest of the

24 notebook. I didn't leaf through it. I don't know what you are interested

25 in.

1 Q. I asked you, as you did not record that conversation, whether in

2 that notebook 103, or Exhibit 747, whether there is any conversation there

3 of General Krstic which you took down.

4 A. Yes. On the next page there is the conversation between General

5 Krstic and Cerovic, for example. Here I have it.

6 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has no

7 further questions. Thank you.

8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

9 Mr. Petrusic.

10 Mr. McCloskey, any redirect?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Judge Fouad Riad has the floor.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE RIAD: Witness FF, good morning. Can you hear me?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE RIAD: I noted down that you had the highest possible

18 qualifications in ham operations and Morse code. What were these

19 operations? Could you give me an idea?

20 A. Well, on the basis of my work as a radio ham, a radio amateur, I

21 still maintain communications according to international regulations with

22 the International Radio Ham Union, and I have links with radio hams

23 throughout the world, all over the world, at certain frequencies and with

24 certain types of operation.

25 JUDGE RIAD: So it is strictly technical, but you have no -- you

1 didn't have any background in recognising voices, studying phonetics,

2 being able to detect voices from their timber and their -- would it -- was

3 that also included in your studies?

4 A. No, it was not included. But quite simply, when you do a

5 particular kind of work for a long time, just as you know your friends by

6 their voices, you can recognise the voice of people you have heard very

7 often, regardless of whether we have had special training with that or

8 not, at least as far as I'm concerned.

9 JUDGE RIAD: Was it possible in the intercepts -- were the

10 intercepts clear enough for you to affirm that that would be the voice of

11 someone, usually? Could you detect them with certainty?

12 A. Yes. Yes, because they were conversations most often which -- the

13 other type of conversation, like you and I are having now, that kind of

14 thing, clear.

15 JUDGE RIAD: Was it as clear as that?

16 A. Well, you could say that it was fairly clear, yes, because they

17 are open conversations. They were not encrypted, protected in any way, or

18 passed through any devices which would distort the voices in any way.

19 They were our natural voices and they were fairly clear.

20 JUDGE RIAD: Now, in the intercepts where General Krstic did not

21 introduce himself or announce himself, was it referred after that to

22 experts to know who it was, or it was you directly who decided who it was?

23 A. Well, not directly me. Every operator, once he had recorded a

24 conversation, he would decide whether and who was doing the talking, on

25 the basis of a voice or the self-identification. That's what he would

1 do. And then he would write it in if he was certain who was the party to

2 the conversation. And if not, then very frequently we could identify

3 individuals by saying 1, 2, 3, depending on how many participants. If we

4 were not sure of who was taking part in the conversation, we would put 1,

5 2, 3.

6 JUDGE RIAD: So you had a double qualification, to intercept and

7 to decide who it was, if he was not announcing himself? It was all in

8 your hands?

9 A. Yes, but we didn't have any orders to that respect that we had to

10 identify the speakers. We just did it sort of along the way,

11 without -- well, quite simply, we would recognise or not recognise a

12 voice, and that's what we would do. Nobody asked us or demanded that we

13 do that.

14 JUDGE RIAD: So as far as you're concerned, you can affirm that

15 even though General Krstic did not announce himself, this was his voice?

16 A. Yes, and not only me; we all knew that, all of us working there.

17 JUDGE RIAD: You would compare sometimes your intercepts?

18 A. Well, no. I don't remember comparing them, because quite simply,

19 the message was recorded and then it was transcribed into the notebook

20 from the tape, from the notebook into the computer, and thus it was

21 dispatched to the headquarters and command, or wherever we sent it on, and

22 we didn't go back to those conversations again. We would continue

23 monitoring, recording, intercepting, and the same procedure would be

24 applied.

25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad

3 Riad.

4 Madam Judge Wald.

5 JUDGE WALD: Witness, I have just one question. In Exhibit 854/A,

6 which is a transcript of the conversation between Popovic and Krstic,

7 allegedly, at the top of it it says: "Transcript of conversation taken

8 from the tape between users O (Operator); O1 (2nd Operator); X (Popovic's

9 boss); and P (Popovic)." Is there any reason why, if Krstic's voice was

10 immediately identifiable, the top of it says "Popovic's boss" rather than

11 identifying who he was? The transcript that's sent on, or the communique

12 that's sent on, which is 852/A, to the higher command identifies it as

13 participant Krstic, Popovic, but I was just wondering why that

14 identification isn't made in 854/A. There may be a reason I don't

15 understand. I'm just asking.

16 A. Well, I don't know. In the conversation in 854/B, there was an

17 introduction. Popovic says, "I need Krle." That is how he called him,

18 either using the word "boss" or "Krle." So we can see from that that it

19 was him.

20 JUDGE WALD: I understand that reasoning. I just didn't

21 understand why the heading didn't identify him.

22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. McCloskey.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. The transcript is an OTP

24 product that we did of the original tape. I should have made that clear.

25 That is something that our office did. That is not a product of the

1 Bosnian government.

2 JUDGE WALD: Okay.

3 JUDGE RIAD: But it's a translation, authentic?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We have done a very careful transcript in

5 Serbo-Croatian and a translation of that transcript, but that is a product

6 of our Translation Unit and our transcribers of that tape. The

7 other -- all the other products are Bosnian government products, but the

8 transcriptions of tapes are OTP products. We did not get any taped

9 transcriptions, that I'm aware of, from the Bosnian government, just

10 tapes.

11 JUDGE WALD: And so 854/B, which is the Bosnian, B/C/S, is subject

12 to the same explanation? Because that too just has "Operator" on it.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That is --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr. President. These are

16 OTP products of the Translation Unit and our team transcriber, and they

17 developed these headings.

18 JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thanks.

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Madam Judge

20 Wald.

21 Witness FF, I have three questions for you. The first: Do you

22 remember the first time that you heard the voice of General Krstic?

23 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it was much earlier than these

24 documents were written, the ones I am testifying about.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you have any

1 idea -- even though you can't remember when was the first time, do you

2 have any idea of how you came to the conclusion that it was General

3 Krstic's voice when you heard it for the first time?

4 A. I've told you already that in addition to General Krstic, we

5 recognised many other officers by their voices.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] No, but I'm referring to the

7 first time. The first time you heard my voice you didn't know it was my

8 voice. So the first time, if you have any idea, how was it you concluded

9 that it was General Krstic's voice? Did someone tell you that was General

10 Krstic? Did the voice say, "I'm General Krstic"? Or was there some other

11 means whereby you were able to conclude that that was General Krstic's

12 voice and from that moment on into the future you knew it?

13 A. Well, yes. Mr. Krstic tended to introduce himself, as he did in

14 the conversation of the 2nd of August. Later on you hear in this

15 conversation Krstic. He identified himself. So that is what he did

16 earlier on too. So I think it is clear.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. But imagine if you

18 didn't hear the conversation from the beginning when the person introduced

19 himself; you intercept the conversation halfway through. Would you be in

20 a position to know that it was General Krstic's voice?

21 A. Well, I don't have any such conversation here, but in many cases

22 it was possible to conclude - not just with respect to him, but

23 others - even if we didn't start recording from the beginning, it was

24 possible to know who was talking, in many cases.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] My second question, Witness:

1 For how long did you listen to the voice of Krstic in all? Mr. Petrusic

2 asked you for the dates, end dates, the beginning and the last time. I'm

3 asking you for the period of time during which you listened to General

4 Krstic's voice.

5 A. I heard him certainly several tens of times.

6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Several dozens of times? Over a

7 period of how long? Eight months, one year, two years?

8 A. Roughly throughout the year 1995, almost. I can't say the whole

9 of it, but most of 1995.

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Having listened to the voice of

11 General Krstic throughout this period, were there any particular

12 characteristics of his voice which allowed you to identify it? You

13 already knew the voice, but was there any some particular characteristic

14 of his voice that you were aware of?

15 A. I never really studied the timbre of people's voices or any such

16 thing in particular, but I recognised it more or less. I recognised it.

17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

18 Witness FF. Thank you for coming here, and we wish you a safe journey

19 home.

20 However, I think that Mr. McCloskey has something to tell us, so

21 with respect to the documents used during your testimony.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have Exhibit 854, which

23 was the tape and the transcript, Exhibits 853, 850, 851, 852, 860, 862,

24 and 844, which is a notebook under seal. That reflects all the various

25 notebooks and printouts that I was referring to.

1 And for the Court's background, and this will be dealt with in a

2 little bit more detail, the notebooks and the printouts were received in

3 our office in December, and we have been analysing and transcribing and

4 translating those since December of last year, 2000, and the actual tape

5 that we just heard was received in a consent search of October, and we've

6 identified -- October of 2000. We identified that tape in November of

7 2000. The tape of the Krstic/Popovic conversation and the notebook and

8 materials were sent to the Defence on January 17th of this year, shortly

9 after we had fully analysed them. The full notebook, 103, was sent on

10 January 26th of this year, and we will provide you with the actual

11 declarations and some of the chain of custody evidence in the following

12 witnesses, but that's just to give you the background into that as it, I

13 believe, is relevant to the motion that is before you.

14 JUDGE WALD: Can I just clarify something? Just what you just

15 said, just so I understand it, you're saying that the two Popovic

16 conversations which you sought to introduce, and the third conversation

17 which the General Mandzuka, that you did not have them in your possession

18 at the time that General Krstic was being cross-examined; is that right?

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's correct. It was October, I believe --

20 JUDGE WALD: October 31st or November 1st was the time of his ...

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, that's correct. We received the notebooks in

22 December, and we got them back to the office --

23 JUDGE WALD: When you say, "We received them," I just want to --

24 does that mean that that was the first time it came to the attention of

25 the Prosecution? I'm not saying this has happened, but they're lingering

1 in a pile someplace and somebody finally got their eyes on them?

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: We've done that over the years. However, this

3 particular set was actually picked up from the 2nd Corps in a mission that

4 was in December 2000, and, I believe, was back in our office on December

5 15, 2000, and then we have been working on those ever since. It was a lot

6 of material. The tape that we just heard came in a bit earlier. The

7 consent search was October -- around October 19th, and we've identified it

8 as the conversation in November.

9 We've noted this in the motion. I believe it was the -- we were

10 able to pin it down to, I think, the first or second week in November, and

11 once we heard on it the tape, then we -- and then we picked up this other

12 material and we eventually found it in the material, the notebooks and the

13 printouts, and we then, soon thereafter, sent it off to the Defence.

14 JUDGE RIAD: That tape was before the cross-examination on

15 31st October?

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Yes. Another team had picked it up on the

17 19th, and we were able to review their material in November. On

18 November -- either the first or second week of November, we found -- we

19 found this particular tape.

20 So it wasn't in our possession very long, and it was in another

21 team's possession. We found out that they had searched Muslim archives,

22 so we were interested, and we were able, through a log that you will soon

23 see, identify this particular conversation. Then we started looking at it

24 very soon after that.

25 This will be dealt with in a bit more detail with the actual

1 witnesses that were involved in this chain of custody, but it will come

2 in, as you know, slowly, and, in some cases, it gets a little confusing,

3 but hopefully this will give you a good road map to the next evidence.

4 JUDGE WALD: But just to pin down this, at the time that you were

5 cross-examining General Krstic, you didn't have this tape? You didn't

6 know about this tape? You hadn't identified the tape?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we did not know about it. It was in -- I

8 believe --

9 JUDGE WALD: Someplace.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Ms. Karagiannakis may clear me up on this, but it

11 was in OTP possession in another team, in our evidence locker, shortly

12 after the consent search which was between 11 and 19 October 2000. So

13 actually, during the cross-examination, this tape was sitting with,

14 probably with 30, 40 others in a locker. Eventually, we were able to find

15 the Bosnian log that went to all those tapes, and by reviewing the log,

16 though they misspelled General Krstic's name, we were able to find it in

17 early November, after the cross-examination of General Krstic, as far as I

18 know, but the cross-examination and Judges' questions went on for a while,

19 too.

20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, regarding the

21 admission of documents and also would you respond to these allegations, if

22 I may call them that, of the Prosecutor.

23 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] The Defence maintains its general

24 objection regarding the documents that we made yesterday, but taking into

25 consideration all that has been said by Mr. McCloskey, it is our

1 submission that the admission of these documents, and especially the tape

2 he refers to, because there's mention of the month of October, that it was

3 in the OTP but in the hands of another team, and of course when they got

4 hold of it after the cross-examination, we feel that this type of evidence

5 could more appropriately be introduced in the reopening of the case by the

6 Prosecution than in the rebuttal case of the Prosecution. That is our

7 position. But in any event, we'll wait for the ruling of the Trial

8 Chamber in writing, which will resolve many dilemmas.

9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Have you finished,

10 Mr. Petrusic?

11 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I see Mr. McCloskey on his

13 feet.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't imagine you want to hear oral argument on

15 the motion, so I won't get into that, though I will try to clarify also

16 the three SDB tapes that Mr. Harmon referred to yesterday came in at the

17 same time as the other notebook material I spoke of and was turned over

18 in, I believe, the same time frame to the Defence, and I -- the motion, I

19 won't get into the details, but Defence counsel never specifically dealt

20 with the details of why they felt that these Krstic/Popovic conversations

21 should fall under the same argument as the other "kill-them-all"

22 conversations specifically. I think they made a general argument. We

23 made a same general argument and did not deal with them specifically, and

24 I won't get into any arguments.

25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Mr. Petrusic, do you wish to

1 respond now to this additional opinion that you just heard?

2 MR. PETRUSIC: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. Thank you.

3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] Very well, then.

4 Witness, please don't move for the moment. We need to pull down

5 the blinds for you to be able to leave safely. Thank you very much once

6 again for coming. I will ask the usher to pull down the blinds and to

7 accompany you out.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] So we're now going to have a

11 20-minute break.

12 I should like to inform the parties that in the afternoon, Judge

13 Fouad Riad will not be present because he has some medical examination, so

14 we will sit in incomplete composition, without Judge Riad.

15 So a 20-minute break now.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.25 a.m.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Interpretation] I apologise for that tardiness.

20 I think that we have Ms. Karagiannakis.

21 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honour. We have the next

22 witness here, and Your Honour, we'd like to have his testimony heard in

23 closed session. I understand our colleagues in the Defence have no

24 objection to this, and if the Court would like to hear the reasons for the

25 closed session, I'm very happy to provide them in closed session.

1 [Closed session]

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22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at, 4.45 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22^nd day

24 of March, 2001, at 9.20 a.m.

25